Cullen
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the 36th episode of Soldiers of Summer podcast. I'm Cullen McFater and as always, am joined by Clark Coffey. How's it going?
00:00:21:15 - 00:00:23:02
Clark
It's going well, man. How are you?
00:00:23:09 - 00:00:25:13
Cullen
I'm great. Very busy right now, but.
00:00:25:23 - 00:00:28:02
Clark
Ready to about some stuff, right?
00:00:28:09 - 00:00:30:17
Cullen
Exactly. Exactly. The important stuff in life, you know?
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Clark
Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's good.
00:00:33:12 - 00:00:44:08
Cullen
Yeah, I'm. I'm excited to talk about at close range, which is our our movie for this episode, the 1986 James Foley film starring Sean Penn and Christopher Walken. Of course, this was your choice. So why don't you tell us a little bit.
00:00:44:08 - 00:01:07:01
Clark
Why tonight's movie? Yeah, I bet you guys out there couldn't see this one coming. Yeah, it is a little more obscure than maybe a lot of the films that we've covered in the past. But, you know, and it's it's it may not be, like, universally acclaimed. It's this little film, like, you said, directed by James Foley in 1986.
00:01:07:01 - 00:01:16:19
Clark
It stars a young, I think, 25 year old Sean Penn. You've got a youngish Christopher Walken, Mary Stuart Masterson, even Crispin.
00:01:17:00 - 00:01:17:18
Cullen
Yeah, his brother.
00:01:18:04 - 00:01:35:15
Clark
Yep. And even Sean's mother is in the film playing his grandmother. There's even a oh, my gosh, who else is in there? Crispin Glover is in this film. He has a super small role. We've got Kiefer Sutherland is in this film again, almost, almost an extra. I don't even know if he has.
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Cullen
Yes, super, super.
00:01:37:13 - 00:01:56:00
Clark
Super young. So it's an interesting film in that regard. You can see a lot of people at the beginning of their careers. But yeah, I mean, I, you know, just kind of my personal relationship to the film. This was a film that that I saw when it was probably, you know, I was maybe 12 years old or so.
00:01:56:00 - 00:02:13:09
Clark
So I saw this at home. And actually it was a film that my father really liked, and he was a big fan of Christopher Walken's, and he felt like the performances between Sean Penn and Christopher Walken were were fantastic in this film. And I have to say, I agree. So this is a film that I actually kind of grew up on.
00:02:13:09 - 00:02:34:08
Clark
Watch this. YOUNG And it was a pretty intense film, as you can imagine, watching it at such a young age. Yeah, Yeah. So, so so that's kind of my relationship to it. Saw it when I was young. It was my father was a fan. He introduced me to it. So I have kind of that warm, fuzzy, you know, kind of nostalgic, you know, father, son kind of relationship to this film.
00:02:34:08 - 00:02:37:14
Clark
Thankfully, nowhere near the kind of father son relationship.
00:02:37:19 - 00:02:39:07
Cullen
That occurs in the film.
00:02:39:07 - 00:03:06:09
Clark
And Sean Penn. Yeah, thankfully nowhere near anything like that. But and I think you and I have talked about this. You've talked about how your father, you know, that's a big part of why you love film, watching films with your father. This exact same thing with me. So, yeah, that's and, you know, I was kind of thinking of films to suggest for the podcast, and I wanted to suggest something that maybe people hadn't heard of, maybe not an obvious choice.
00:03:07:01 - 00:03:30:05
Clark
It's it's probably not going to be on anybody's, you know, top ten list or anything like that. Not even close. It was the critical reception was split when the film came out, and it was definitely not a commercially successful film. But and matter of fact, I mean, James Foley, I think the latest things that he's done, he did some of the House of Cards episodes.
00:03:30:05 - 00:03:34:22
Clark
But yeah, he directed the two sequels to the 50 Shades of Gray. Or is that not.
00:03:34:22 - 00:03:35:21
Cullen
Even the original, just.
00:03:36:07 - 00:03:52:04
Clark
The two sequels? And so I have no idea. I can't speak to anything about those films. It's it's not a film that I was interested. Those films were not films I was interested in seen, So I've not seen them. I can't speak to them. But he's still out there making movies, apparently. Yeah. Yeah. This was one of his biggest.
00:03:52:04 - 00:04:07:03
Clark
He also directed Glengarry Glen Ross. That's probably a film that most people might know him by and obviously everybody knows Pattern and walk in and but, but yeah, so, so I did suggest it and I'm really curious to hear about, you know, your viewing.
00:04:07:08 - 00:04:37:08
Cullen
I think it's actually funny that you suggest this movie because a few weeks ago a friend of mine, Leona Lewis, who is a great director here in Toronto and actually just had a really successful film release at TIFF 2019 before the pandemic, shut everything down. But he posted he on there their production company Instagram page, Lisa Pictures. They just post kind of like screenshots of movies that they like and are watching at the time and stuff like that.
00:04:37:09 - 00:05:03:10
Cullen
And so a few weeks ago, the shot for one of the shots from this movie, The shot of Christopher Walken and Christopher Penn talking in the field, was posted to their account. And it's like, yeah, it looks beautiful. I think it's the best looking shot in the movie. And I just was very fascinated with it and thought that it was like, it's very mesmerizing image and it's funny that you then suggested this movie and I didn't even realize that they were the same movie until that.
00:05:03:13 - 00:05:06:12
Cullen
And then along and then I was like, I've seen this. Really?
00:05:06:12 - 00:05:07:16
Clark
Your friend has good taste.
00:05:07:22 - 00:05:31:17
Cullen
Yeah. So I went and scrolled back and lo and behold, there it was on the, on their Instagram. So funny that that's just like a little, you know, a coincidence. But yeah, so I had never seen this movie before. And yeah, it was one of those movies that like, I think will make this episode really interesting is it was much more of a the scene to scene of it was was relatively hit or miss.
00:05:31:17 - 00:05:57:14
Cullen
And I don't mean that in a completely negative way, but what made it really interesting, I think for me to watch it and I almost think that that was in a way a positive in terms of the viewing experience because I was super engaged throughout. Yeah, like this movie really kind of almost challenged me mentally to like, think about why things aren't working for me or think about, you know, what would I have done differently or even just on it.
00:05:57:15 - 00:06:04:00
Cullen
On a matter of like the cinematography, you know what, what isn't working for me in certain scenes? Kind of interesting.
00:06:04:00 - 00:06:16:06
Clark
I got a picture yet so it sort of riff on this. I'm curious. So I mean, kind of, you know, as as people who are so obsessed with film, you know, I find myself doing this pretty frequently throughout films, period, right? No matter what the film is.
00:06:16:06 - 00:06:17:07
Cullen
I'm go Absolutely.
00:06:17:07 - 00:06:29:06
Clark
And I'm guessing you do, too. But I'm curious. I mean, did you feel like the story didn't didn't kind of pull you in or the characters didn't pull you in more than your average film and is that why you were kind of focused more on.
00:06:29:13 - 00:06:48:15
Cullen
No, no. I actually thought the story was strong. I thought, okay, the script was strong and there was nothing. I see, you know, again, there was there was I would I wouldn't really describe it as like the highs were highs and lows were lows because there weren't really any lows. Like there was nothing in the movie that I found myself scoffing at or going like, that was horrible stuff.
00:06:48:15 - 00:07:11:08
Cullen
It was more so just that there were elements of it that I thought were missed opportunities in a way. Okay, that I feel like that the then we'll, of course, get into details of like the scene, a scene in a bit. But right there were just a few moments in the movie that stuck out to me, as you know, that could have really, really impacted me had it been done just slightly differently or have they gone a little bit further with certain things?
00:07:11:08 - 00:07:15:20
Cullen
And I don't mean, of course, you know, ramping up Gore or anything like that, but just.
00:07:15:20 - 00:07:16:13
Clark
Right.
00:07:16:13 - 00:07:43:03
Cullen
Like, you know, tweaks in the way that scenes are directed or the scenes or the way that scenes are edited or staged. And I think that the reason that I really like watching movies like this and movies that I you know, even though, you know, I wasn't blown away, that I think the thing that I really like about watching movies like that is that it does really get your brain working and it gets your brain thinking like, okay, where where did it work and where did it not for me.
00:07:43:03 - 00:07:51:08
Cullen
And yeah, and so and, and, you know, aside from that as well, I think this movie is like oozing with choice in terms of direction. It's oozing with character.
00:07:51:08 - 00:07:54:15
Clark
Very well directed in my personal and yeah, I know like.
00:07:54:15 - 00:08:15:08
Cullen
It's really direct. You can feel the vision in it. And I think that that's something that is indicative of very much of the time that it came out that that movies were just, in my opinion, like on a grander scale, less of a product. And, and of course they were always designed to make money. And that's that's what filmmaking the industry of filmmaking has always been.
00:08:15:08 - 00:08:25:20
Cullen
But in a very real sense, you know, I would take I would take this movie over most movies that have come out in the past 20 years, simply because the fact that I feel like there was choice in it and there was there.
00:08:25:20 - 00:08:26:08
Clark
Was there was.
00:08:26:08 - 00:08:27:01
Cullen
Less choice.
00:08:27:01 - 00:08:44:04
Clark
So, yeah, let's talk about that for a second. I mean, you know, context is important. So, you know, to kind of put this film back, right? We're talking 1986. You know, this is I think it had a budget of six and a half million dollars at the time, which, you know, would definitely make this a small mid-budget film.
00:08:44:04 - 00:09:09:18
Clark
Even then, I do the math on inflation, but maybe you're looking at, what, $20 million today or $25 million today. So, you know, and it's a sadness to me that I don't think these kind of, you know, made for adult audiences, these mature films that are character driven. I just don't think that this many films for wide theatrical release especially.
00:09:09:18 - 00:09:10:07
Cullen
Yes.
00:09:10:11 - 00:09:32:12
Clark
That's just not now you know, where would this film exist in today's day and age? This film maybe would exist on Netflix. Maybe this would exist at Amazon Prime. It would be buried, you know, pages deep. And their search has, you know, in the in the search results and you'd likely never find it. So it's I, I'm sad that these kind of films don't exist so much anymore.
00:09:32:12 - 00:09:45:15
Clark
So when I watched this film, I kind of look back, you know, Sure. Rose colored glasses, a bit of nostalgia. But, you know, I've already admitted that, that I'm definitely looking at this film nostalgically. But I think it's sad that we don't have films like this.
00:09:46:00 - 00:09:54:20
Cullen
Yeah. Like when when you can really just feel the idea that it's kind of raw filmmaking in a way, but it's just older people going out to tell a story.
00:09:54:20 - 00:10:00:22
Clark
And this would be an independent film today like this would be and I mean, like indie, indie, like this would be an indie indie film if it were.
00:10:00:23 - 00:10:03:12
Cullen
Yeah, this would maybe get a premiere like Sundance or something.
00:10:03:12 - 00:10:04:22
Clark
Yeah, if, if it were lucky.
00:10:05:17 - 00:10:31:14
Cullen
And so, yeah, I do think that that's I mean, again, the thing that I, I think is really interesting and I really want to kind of emphasize too, is that, you know, I watched some of my favorite movies in the same way that a lot of the movies that I think affected me or that I grew up loving or that I still love to this day are very much movies that I, I do still find a lot of faults in.
00:10:32:09 - 00:10:44:00
Cullen
And even more recently, like a movie like Split that Shyamalan did, I think back in 2017, I think they came out was it was the sequel, a secret sequel to Unbreakable, starring James McAvoy?
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Clark
I think I've seen this.
00:10:45:12 - 00:10:55:08
Cullen
Yeah. You know, that's a movie that didn't go crazy. It was kind of heralded as Shyamalan's comeback. Like didn't get like a like, it wasn't like it blew the box office away or something like that.
00:10:55:08 - 00:10:56:06
Clark
Yeah. 2060.
00:10:56:06 - 00:11:25:23
Cullen
That's a movie that I really. Yeah. 2016. And it's memorable. I really like and like because, because again, and the reason I'm comparing it to this is just because I felt like there was a lot of creative decision behind it. There's a lot of passionate perspective on in this perspective, and there's like a few. Yeah, Yeah. So, so when I say that, like there are, you know, I don't mean to sound necessarily nit picky with a movie like this, but rather again, to me I take any movie, whether it's great or whether it's really bad, it's kind of more of an exercise for learning.
00:11:27:01 - 00:11:31:16
Cullen
And so that's that's very much where I'm coming from with, with the critique this. Yeah.
00:11:32:00 - 00:11:49:16
Clark
So I think so if I'm understanding it's not so much for like is it a good or bad film or what it's more about, you know, any time an artist has a strong opinion, they're coming from a strong point of view or perspective. I mean, naturally some of these things are going to maybe not be the points of view that you have.
00:11:49:16 - 00:11:50:08
Cullen
And exactly.
00:11:50:08 - 00:11:57:16
Clark
Yeah. And that's but that's what's wonderful. I mean, I see those things and it makes me smile. I Yeah, yeah. And I think that's what you're saying too.
00:11:57:18 - 00:12:17:07
Cullen
Yeah. I had no trouble making it through this movie. Like, I think that's another thing that's important to say is that there was, you know, it wasn't a point like even when I saw things that I didn't necessarily jive with. Yeah, there it wasn't me looking at my watch and going, okay, one's it's going to be over. I was thoroughly engaged and thoroughly enjoying myself throughout.
00:12:17:07 - 00:12:31:11
Cullen
And again, a lot of that I think is because of the fact that I was kind of like picking it apart in my brain as it went along. And I was kind of going like, that's a really interesting choice. And again, I would take an interesting choice that doesn't work over and over.
00:12:31:11 - 00:12:32:00
Clark
No choice.
00:12:32:10 - 00:12:33:08
Cullen
That doesn't work.
00:12:33:15 - 00:12:34:14
Clark
Over content.
00:12:34:14 - 00:12:37:10
Cullen
Ten times out of ten over ten, quote unquote.
00:12:37:17 - 00:12:57:07
Clark
I mean, it's it's also fun to I just want to talk a little bit just as we're kind of talking about context, the era of the film, it has some fun, kind of little pieces of of trivia, I guess, for lack of a better term as to how this film kind of came to be. You know, if we take ourselves back to 1986, you know, this is in the beginning, obviously, of Sean Penn's career.
00:12:57:20 - 00:13:30:19
Clark
He had done, what, a handful of films. But but he was like, but he was definitely on the rise. And it's my understanding that he actually he brought this film to Foley. So he had the script and he took it to Foley. And apparently that Foley's first film, which was a film in Night that was released in 84 called Reckless, Sean Penn, actually auditioned for that film, obviously didn't get cast, but the two became friends, I is my understanding.
00:13:30:20 - 00:13:36:12
Clark
So much so. In fact, that I heard that Sean Penn actually lived with Foley.
00:13:37:02 - 00:13:38:18
Cullen
Oh, wow. I did not know that. Yeah.
00:13:38:18 - 00:14:06:01
Clark
For roughly about a year, you know, before they started shooting on this film. So it's it's my understanding that, you know, the two of them really worked this film, massaged the script, work the story, work the characters together for a long period of time before they went into production. So it is very much, you know, I think you could say that Sean Penn had, you know, at least as much to do with this film as Foley.
00:14:07:14 - 00:14:11:14
Cullen
And that was an interesting relationship to have with the director, too.
00:14:11:14 - 00:14:12:13
Clark
That right.
00:14:12:13 - 00:14:21:10
Cullen
Like, I mean, I imagine that means that on the set of this, they would have probably had a really, really unique working relationship.
00:14:21:10 - 00:14:23:18
Clark
I would imagine. A very close one. Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:23:19 - 00:14:42:19
Cullen
I mean, that's one of the things that I think is is really crucial to any director is I can't imagine being a director who and some directors don't care, but some directors just like they'll, they'll hire anyone on their crew. They don't have to know them. They don't really care about their prior history with them, that they're just just kind of more of like as long as they get the job done.
00:14:42:19 - 00:15:15:10
Cullen
Whereas I find that I kind of relate a lot more to directors who, you know, keep the same crew, keep working with the same crew, and have built up that relationship. And I think cast as well. And, you know, there's nothing more difficult for me, not that I have difficulty or trouble meeting new people or speaking to people I don't know, but rather that, you know, I can just imagine that one of the reasons that Sean Penn's performance in this movie is so strong is because they that the director just probably they had a very clear understanding of each other and to and likely had a very easy time communicating so well.
00:15:15:11 - 00:15:25:17
Cullen
So no, that's again, I don't know. I don't know what the production of this movie is like. There's not a lot of information on it, but but I would assume that that that would be a really positive thing for performances and for.
00:15:26:11 - 00:15:45:14
Clark
I would think so for most. I mean, I and I'm the same as you. I mean, when I work, I mean, it's I mean, I'll be really perfectly quite honest. I mean, I you know, it it's helpful for me whether I'm acting, whether I'm directing you know, to to feel really comfortable around the people I'm working with is a really important thing for me.
00:15:45:14 - 00:16:06:14
Clark
I and it just from a self confidence perspective, from a vulnerability of performance perspective, from, you know, feeling like I have a space for, you know, for my authentic voice, which it can be scary. I think working around people that you don't know well or you know, and it's and it's it's not so much, you know, that there's an issue with them or whatever.
00:16:06:15 - 00:16:22:19
Clark
Just you don't know them, you know. So it's all of us feel more comfortable around people that we actually know. So, you know, when I direct things, you know, often you don't have the time. You know, most people are in you don't have time to go like live, you know, invite your your lead actors over to live with you for, you know, for sure.
00:16:23:05 - 00:16:24:23
Clark
You know, we don't. But but this works.
00:16:24:23 - 00:16:27:18
Cullen
For a lot of times. I don't think people would want to. No, no, no.
00:16:27:18 - 00:16:34:18
Clark
And let me be clear. That's not what I would want either. That's a bit extreme. And I think that kind of happened because Sean actually didn't have.
00:16:34:19 - 00:16:35:22
Cullen
Yeah, I think that was just a.
00:16:35:22 - 00:16:52:23
Clark
He was really I was living with his girlfriend and actually it's another you know, speaking of girlfriends, of course, Sean Penn had started dating Madonna at this point. And now clearly she is involved in the film. If you watch the ending credits, she's got the largest credit of the entire It's.
00:16:53:02 - 00:16:54:18
Cullen
The first song or it's the first.
00:16:54:18 - 00:17:11:13
Clark
Credit. It's the first credit and it's the end. We heard her font is, you know, like five times the font of everybody else's credit there. But but of course, you know, she provided the I guess, you know, the theme song for the film Live to Tell. And I'm not a big Madonna fan. We were just talking about this, Colin.
00:17:11:14 - 00:17:28:08
Clark
You know, I grew up, though, when Madonna was you know, her and Michael Jackson were the largest pop stars in the world. You know, Madonna, it's hard to explain. You know, you had kind of said, well, yeah, she just kind of like the Lady Gaga of. And I was like, yeah, I don't even know if that does it.
00:17:28:15 - 00:17:50:21
Clark
Because back then when you had MTV and terrestrial radio and vinyl records and that was about it, and audiences weren't so splintered among so many avenues. I mean, it was like the cat, you know, the Madonna's album sales at that period of time were just astronomical. You know, it's but it was she was just a huge popular culture phenomenon.
00:17:50:21 - 00:18:16:11
Clark
But anyway, my point is just that, you know, because of her involvement with Sean Penn, we get her providing a track for the film, which was more successful than the film itself. Yeah. And we actually have Madonna's her kind of like musical, I guess, co-creator, if you will. I mean, the the guy who provides the score for the film actually worked with her.
00:18:16:11 - 00:18:37:11
Clark
Patrick Leonard was actually a co songwriter, co-writer and co-producer for most of her huge hits from that era with her musical director on her big tours to Virgin tour. And so and you can kind of we can talk about the score a little bit later when we get to that. But it's just interesting kind of all these little relationship kind.
00:18:37:12 - 00:18:39:01
Cullen
Of, Yeah, the connections, reactions.
00:18:39:02 - 00:18:55:06
Clark
And and of course that's that's kind of like how we find like all of the people I or many of the people that we, you know, that I end up working on films it's kind of a it's interesting to kind of look back. I don't know, Colin, if you've done this, you kind of it's amazing. Just a little like web of connections that you make and people that.
00:18:55:07 - 00:18:55:12
Clark
Yeah.
00:18:55:18 - 00:18:57:15
Cullen
And surprisingly small world.
00:18:57:20 - 00:19:21:16
Clark
It's a surprisingly tiny world. But anyway, that's that's kind of like a fun thing for me to kind of like look at for films are like, how did these people meet each other? How did these people come together? It's like, I wouldn't expect Madonna to to be at the height of her fame, to be providing a song for this little six and a half million dollar film, you know, but super interesting, I guess, to, you know, just to kind of kind of give a little bit of background in this to the story.
00:19:21:23 - 00:19:47:01
Clark
And I was curious about, you know, if you felt like the story there was something that grabbed you. But it's, you know, the father son kind of relationship aspect of this film was something that that struck me. And I think like any any son, regardless of what your relationship with his your father is like is probably I mean, it's like, you know, your desire for your father to be proud of you, to be accepted by your father.
00:19:47:02 - 00:19:51:22
Clark
This is the kind of a fundamental kind of aspect, I think a very simple story.
00:19:51:22 - 00:19:53:02
Cullen
Yeah, it's very simple.
00:19:53:02 - 00:20:13:05
Clark
And I think it's like we all can relate. So even though. Yes, this the story is about and actually it's very loosely based on a true story and a book called Jailing the Johnston Gang was about these criminals. This gang of criminals in rural Pennsylvania, very loosely based on that. I don't think they cared at all about trying to stay close to.
00:20:13:19 - 00:20:15:01
Cullen
The movie set in Tennessee.
00:20:15:01 - 00:20:27:19
Clark
And exactly it's it doesn't even but but but I don't know that aspect of it always. You know it resonated with me. Did you feel any of that? Did that kind of come across to you? Like kind of what was your take on the story overall?
00:20:27:19 - 00:20:54:13
Cullen
And I yeah, I think that it was the story's engaging. I mean, it's it's again, it's a very simple story, which I think works in its favor. It's the I think what's and I think what's really a testament to Penn's performance especially is that you do feel definitely the motivation there of his character like he plays that but not in such a ridiculously, you know, it's not like a dance movie where he's like, I just want to dance, you know?
00:20:54:19 - 00:20:56:06
Clark
Are you talking about Footloose?
00:20:57:01 - 00:21:00:14
Cullen
These are some break in to like or do they now?
00:21:01:01 - 00:21:06:15
Clark
So wait, is that our next two films then Footloose and break into play? All right, awesome. Let me write that down to dancing.
00:21:06:15 - 00:21:25:00
Cullen
Pregnant ladies. They're. They're the best. But. But no, you really do. There's like, an element to it that you really feel through come through Penn's performance. And I think that that not to say that the story doesn't you know isn't engaging on its own because I think the story is is wonderful in terms of the way it's written and the way it's presented.
00:21:25:06 - 00:21:37:13
Cullen
Yeah, but I think you get this very nuanced performance from Penn. You know, I think that Penn is a very understated actor in that he doesn't like even for an opening scene.
00:21:37:17 - 00:21:39:18
Clark
Not always, you know, Not always.
00:21:39:18 - 00:21:43:19
Cullen
Yeah, there are no roles of course he gives where he's he really figure.
00:21:43:19 - 00:21:44:04
Clark
Yeah.
00:21:44:12 - 00:22:02:16
Cullen
But he like even the opening scene in this film when he's just kind of like, you know perhaps apart from the part where he rides the car but the, the like, the way that he performs that, that bit about, you know, give us the $5 back and it's this really it's not like he's not going crazy with it.
00:22:02:16 - 00:22:21:19
Cullen
He's not like showing anger or he's just kind of he's got this sort of like almost proto menace to him where you can see, you know, he didn't really great job of almost like mimicking some of some of Christopher Walken's kind of man you're risers in that way. And so I think that that's that's something that shows what a talent he was.
00:22:21:19 - 00:22:38:10
Cullen
And I think that plays into the story very well and really, I think heightens the story and amplifies some of the elements of the story that are really important, really key, which is, again, that father son relationship, you know? And then of course, Walken's great as well. He's got a perfect mustache and.
00:22:39:00 - 00:23:07:18
Clark
Just like just like you. That's right. You're rocking it. It's too bad people can't see. But you have done an excellent job emulating Walken's mustache from his character in this film, right? We may have to change our cover art for this episode, too. A close up of your mustache. It's so fantastic. But I. Oh, my gosh. Right. So that's the I we could riff on that for a long time, but.
00:23:07:18 - 00:23:10:14
Clark
Right. What was that close range? The mustache was.
00:23:10:14 - 00:23:11:04
Cullen
Exactly.
00:23:11:18 - 00:23:12:02
Clark
Yeah.
00:23:12:07 - 00:23:20:07
Cullen
Well, but I but again, it's, it's, that's exactly what I think is so great. I think that this movie, again, is a really perfect example of, like I said, just that kind of.
00:23:21:08 - 00:23:21:20
Clark
Well, it's really.
00:23:21:22 - 00:23:33:17
Cullen
Through. Everybody involved wanted to be there and wanted to be involved and wanted to be making this. And, you know, Walken hams up the scenery and is very walking in that way, very sleazy.
00:23:33:18 - 00:23:35:08
Clark
I think it's a great performance.
00:23:35:10 - 00:23:36:22
Cullen
I think, you know, it's it's fantastic.
00:23:37:01 - 00:24:04:02
Clark
Great. Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, you know, I do think that there was they did a good job. So I don't know exactly where you can maybe speak to kind of what environment you grew up in. But, you know, for me, I grew up in the Midwest and, you know, a lot of the time I spent in smaller towns when I was I was born in a very, very, very small town in the boot heel, which is the southeast of Missouri, which is actually right there on the border of Tennessee.
00:24:05:11 - 00:24:26:05
Clark
So I grew up not too far away from where this was filmed, not where the the story factually took place in the book it was based on, but where it was filmed. And I didn't live there too long, though. And we moved up north to outside St Louis, but so much of my family was from there. So my grandparents on both sides of my family, I would spend a lot of time there on farms.
00:24:26:19 - 00:25:00:18
Clark
My mother's parents were farmers and I would spend a lot of my summers there. So I definitely grew up in these kind of Midwestern, southern ish rural areas and spent a lot of time there when I was a kid. And I feel like they did a pretty darn good job of of of capturing that just and and I think, you know, some of the ways that that Foley kind of managed it and they're not obvious it's not flagrant, it's not spectacle but just how he kind of handles things spatially with that.
00:25:00:18 - 00:25:21:18
Clark
You mentioned the scene in the beginning where Sean Penn, where he rides the hood of a car because a guy has stolen $5 from his brother, said he would buy him alcohol and didn't. There's this this town square kind of centering the story there and starting it in this small town square. And and we instantly know where the.
00:25:21:18 - 00:25:23:21
Cullen
Teenagers sort of hang out at night. Yeah, right.
00:25:23:21 - 00:25:54:15
Clark
We instantly know so much about the film. I mean, you've got, you know, tractors slowing down traffic. If you've ever lived in a rural environment, you know that that's okay. But, you know, I think told it so well and you know, the scenes with, you know, of of Mary Stuart Masterson's character on the tractor, you know, she lives in this, you know, this small house and they're surrounded by cornfields and when when Penn's character comes in, they have this really, which I think is a quite sweet representation of a young relationship starting.
00:25:54:20 - 00:26:13:19
Clark
I think they really do a great job of that. So I don't know, I just kind of want to commend it. Foley commend Foley for, I think establishing the setting and representing these characters in ways that I feel like I recognized. And, you know, I recognized these places and I felt like they did a good job with that.
00:26:13:19 - 00:26:14:03
Clark
And there's a.
00:26:14:03 - 00:26:17:03
Cullen
Little subtle shout out to Toronto in the movies. And there you go.
00:26:17:03 - 00:26:18:16
Clark
Oh, what was the shout out to?
00:26:18:16 - 00:26:26:12
Cullen
Larkin says when he's speeding? And he says, You could, you know, if you take the backroads, you're going to go zip. You go to Tennessee, to Toronto. And that's where the whole way.
00:26:26:12 - 00:26:28:14
Clark
So that and so you.
00:26:28:16 - 00:26:29:19
Cullen
Get a little bit more.
00:26:29:19 - 00:26:35:16
Clark
Not only did you not grow up in the southern United States, but you probably didn't grow up in a rural area.
00:26:35:17 - 00:26:43:12
Cullen
Yeah, well, me Toronto is funny, especially like most Canadian cities are funny in that way because, you know, Toronto is a massive city like six over 6 million people.
00:26:43:12 - 00:26:45:23
Clark
One of my favorites, by the way. And I'm not just saying that.
00:26:46:03 - 00:27:10:09
Cullen
But it doesn't take a long time to you know, I live on I live a city adjacent to Toronto, on the Lake Lake Ontario. And so but it really doesn't take long to you know, I drive a half an hour away from my house and I'm in farmland. So it's really there's not a lot of separation between rural, rural areas and rural towns and stuff here and as I'm sure is very similar in the Midwest and stuff like that.
00:27:10:17 - 00:27:30:02
Cullen
Yeah, but so I but I've never, you know, my whole family has always, you know, lived in, I would say, the closest to non city living in terms of my immediate family is that my mom grew up in Newfoundland. Okay so she was born there and spent, you know, until she was a teenager and came here for university.
00:27:30:02 - 00:27:42:14
Cullen
But so there's that. And, you know, I've I've gone out there and visited several times and stuff like that, and it's a lovely place, but that's probably the closest in terms of my personal connection to kind of like living in the boonies and stuff like that.
00:27:42:18 - 00:27:44:06
Clark
I love it. Living in the boonies.
00:27:44:09 - 00:28:01:08
Cullen
Exactly. Yeah. So, so there's there's not really too much of like a personal, personal connection there for me. But I could feel, you know, one thing, I did work at a summer camp and go to a summer camp for a lot of my life, but then wound up working there. That is in this place in southern Ontario named Danville.
00:28:01:08 - 00:28:25:13
Cullen
And it's like this. It's this, again, very much like a town like you would probably see in Tennessee, like lots of tractors slowing down traffic, all farms around it. Very simple. Simple town. Yeah. And so I thought that it was interesting that, like, what I thought was a really great job at this movie is that you can, like, feel the heat, You can feel that midsummer heat of like, you know, where it's it's sort of humid and you get the dusty just, oh yeah.
00:28:26:10 - 00:28:45:06
Cullen
And there's, you know, there's no better thing than right some tree cover by a like a little little pond or something and you can feel the cool air coming off of the pond. And so you know, you really do feel the where I think a lot of other movies we're just going to skip over that that element of it that the feeling of it.
00:28:45:12 - 00:28:48:06
Cullen
Yeah have to be really buys into it exactly.
00:28:48:06 - 00:28:49:16
Clark
Yeah yeah you're know.
00:28:49:18 - 00:28:58:05
Cullen
The climate in the summer between you know you go from from up here where I live down to Tennessee the climates during the summer months aren't a whole lot are pretty much the.
00:28:58:05 - 00:28:58:17
Clark
Same It's.
00:28:58:17 - 00:29:18:22
Cullen
Very humid up here. Gets very hot new hot. Yeah so so it definitely did kind of speak to me in that way of just feeling the you know, I think I think again, foliage is a really good job of making you feel just because it's not, you know, at its core, it's technically a crime movie. It's sort of like almost like a mob movie.
00:29:18:22 - 00:29:19:07
Clark
Right?
00:29:20:00 - 00:29:28:01
Cullen
But it it isn't you know, it's not Goodfellas. You're not you're not having these long montages of narration about like living in Sicily or that a families or.
00:29:28:05 - 00:29:29:23
Clark
It's definitely not a New York film.
00:29:29:23 - 00:29:42:06
Cullen
It's not so so you get this really interesting and very unique, I think like a story that's not really been told elsewhere a whole lot about this kind of back country, crime, family.
00:29:42:10 - 00:30:00:06
Clark
And I want to say this is interesting, too. I just real quick, because you mentioned like Goodfellas and of course, you know, Scorsese, he talks about how he grew up around these people. Right. He grew up in New York and he was kind of around these guys. He saw these guys and, you know, like what, 90% of his films are about these guys, Right?
00:30:00:11 - 00:30:18:20
Clark
That's you know, I may be exaggerating, but, you know, but not much. But, you know, Foley is from Brooklyn. Leave it or not. So it's not like Foley grew up in Tennessee or grew up in the Midwest or you know, So I think, you know, especially consider he does a good job. I mean, it felt doesn't feel disconnected.
00:30:18:20 - 00:30:44:11
Cullen
Yeah. It doesn't feel like someone who's like just coming, which there's a lot of movies that do, you know, a good example of a movie that I think does feel quite disconnected from both the geography and the story is the Christopher Nolan remake of Insomnia, which of course is a remake of a Norwegian film and a Norwegian film, of course, because it's made by Norwegians in Norway, really exudes the the northern.
00:30:44:11 - 00:31:06:09
Cullen
Yeah. Feeling in that that that you know that endless light that summer and whereas the Nolan film seems more like it's set in Alaska as opposed to Norway but it feels very much more like a director who hasn't really experienced a lot of this stuff going there and just trying to make a crime movie. You know, it drops off a lot of the stuff that makes it so geographically relevant.
00:31:06:10 - 00:31:08:15
Cullen
You know, I didn't feel about this coincidence.
00:31:08:15 - 00:31:22:12
Clark
I was just going to say, coincidentally, I've seen insomnia recently, and I kind of thinking back to it now, as you describe this, I would agree with you. And it of course, Dolan has gone on from that film to be one of the most successful.
00:31:22:14 - 00:31:24:07
Cullen
Pretty big dramas. Yes. Yeah.
00:31:24:20 - 00:31:49:22
Clark
But I would yeah, I would agree. I don't think that he utilized the set setting anywhere near to the extent of the effectiveness rather, that he does in this film. And it's important because these characters, how they relate to each other, the family is represented here. It's the rural nature, the the kind of, I don't know, poor, close to poor lower middle class.
00:31:49:22 - 00:31:56:10
Cullen
Yes, definitely. You know, you go in and people spend their days smoking cigarets on couches, watching TV, drinking beer and.
00:31:56:12 - 00:32:11:15
Clark
Yes. Yeah. And this is it's true. This is true. You know, there's nothing to do. And, you know, kids, you live 100 miles from nowhere, you know, from everywhere. Kids got nothing to do but, you know, drive their cars around town in circles and, you know, get into trouble. So.
00:32:11:15 - 00:32:33:17
Cullen
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's definitely it feels very much again, sort of and I mentioned this to you, but that that that it's interesting that we've done this so close to Rumble Fish because it does have, you know, of course different stories and very different styles but but sort of almost similar conflict.
00:32:33:20 - 00:33:00:12
Clark
Related and look at the father son relationships, right? You have to think about it. Wow. So we're like, psychoanalyze me here in a second. So this is about brothers. This film is about brothers. And their father kind of at its core. And look at what a huge part that is. Right? We've got two brothers and although I don't take the relationship with the father was really at the heart of Rumble Fish in the way it is obviously for this film, it's there.
00:33:00:16 - 00:33:07:06
Cullen
It definitely it almost tortures the the focus from the relationship of the brothers to this relationship of the father. So I'm.
00:33:07:06 - 00:33:17:11
Clark
Great. So yeah, like definitely set in the Midwest, they're both films that came out. They came out very close 86 for this film and when.
00:33:17:11 - 00:33:18:17
Cullen
They three or.
00:33:19:07 - 00:33:28:08
Clark
Four, I think so around there. So see and so these were films that I was watching when I was a kid and clearly they resonated with me. Yeah, Very interesting.
00:33:28:08 - 00:33:33:12
Cullen
Very interesting. I do think that. Yeah. So I, I just did this just kind of one of the things I noticed it.
00:33:34:12 - 00:33:42:13
Clark
And I would agree with you and the performances, there's kind of some similarities. The fact about how you felt like Sean Penn, you could kind of feel a certain sense of.
00:33:42:13 - 00:34:03:15
Cullen
Matt Dillon Yeah, very similar form. You know, I guess just styles of characters, you know, this like this, this kind of, I guess drifting kid doesn't know where he's supposed to belong and kind of like wears, you know, tank tops. It's sort of a tough guy and there's a lot of a grease monkey in a way, and that, you know, sort of similar, similar characters.
00:34:04:07 - 00:34:05:00
Clark
Yeah, that's I do.
00:34:05:00 - 00:34:07:20
Cullen
Think it's interesting that that that we did those movies so close together.
00:34:08:04 - 00:34:29:21
Clark
Well, and I mean, it was not consciously intended, man. It was just literally I'm sitting here saying, okay, what what films are when I just asked myself the question, what would I like to watch again? What would be interesting to discuss? These are the film, the films that have come up. I I'm definitely not sitting here trying to calculate well what films would would people be most interested in or something like that.
00:34:30:01 - 00:34:59:06
Clark
I have no way that I could ever guess. And so I just think what's interesting to me and then fingers crossed, I hope it's interesting for someone else and yeah, and of course a big part of it is that I, I am curious to hear your perspective and have a conversation with you about these films. So obviously I can never see this film in any kind of objective way because again, it is a film from my childhood, so it's like curious to have this conversation with you because you do have a much more you have a totally objective viewpoint on it.
00:34:59:06 - 00:35:18:11
Clark
You know, you have no history with it. So. Well, I you know, so speaking of, you know, thinking about talking with this, talking about the film, T to you, one of the thing I'm surprised that you didn't mention it like, instantly because I was just waiting for you. I was like, waiting for the text from you, you know, the cinematography.
00:35:18:11 - 00:35:38:04
Clark
One of the things that was immediately noticeable to me, I mean, first of all, I think overall, I think it's a it's a really beautiful film on the whole. But one of the things that really jumped out to me is that you've got longer lenses and I know very young and I know that you're a big wide lens fan and you want to shoot everything with like an 11 or something.
00:35:38:13 - 00:35:40:18
Clark
Yeah. And I mean, what.
00:35:40:18 - 00:35:41:16
Cullen
Do you mean? I hear what you're saying.
00:35:41:16 - 00:35:50:17
Clark
I like Metallica and I know and I and I know that's kind of your orientation to it, but immediately you notice long lenses, you notice a lot of compression, and you also.
00:35:50:18 - 00:35:51:15
Cullen
A lot of close ups.
00:35:51:16 - 00:36:12:07
Clark
A lot of close ups with these languages. Now it people look beautiful with these long lenses for sure, but it's definitely not a style. I think you would see it, you know, a film shot in today. And I obviously when I watch this as a kid, it wasn't something that that stood out to me. I wasn't sitting there saying, Oh, look at those long lenses and these little cups.
00:36:12:07 - 00:36:27:07
Clark
But now watching it, I was pretty surprised by the lack of, you know, medium shots. There's there's hardly any, you know, and no, over the shoulders. I mean, it's like you've got two people talking to each other and you just see their face and.
00:36:27:07 - 00:36:53:03
Cullen
Yeah, yeah. And there's an example of actually a moment like that in the movie that I can think of that that was one of those moments where it was one of the kind of sticking out moments where I kind of went from that like I think I would have done that differently in the part when when Christopher Walken walks in the house to talk to the mother and it like follows him entering the house and walking over to the kitchen where she's standing.
00:36:53:03 - 00:37:12:06
Cullen
She's doing something in the kitchen. Yeah. And to me, what would make that scene really interesting to me is, is if you just stuck on that wide of both of them in the kitchen and almost just played out the whole scene just in that single shot. But as soon as walking gets in the kitchen, it they're isolated shots into it cuts into your floating house.
00:37:12:20 - 00:37:13:20
Clark
So now there's.
00:37:13:20 - 00:37:33:09
Cullen
I thought it was really like again and so again it's it's one of those things that's certainly a it's not an objective thing. It's very subjective. So, you know, different directors like different things. So it was interesting. It's always interesting to see kind of the opposite of of what I would do stylistically in a movie and see how that works.
00:37:33:09 - 00:37:38:01
Clark
And I feel like some in some ways it was almost shot for TV in some.
00:37:38:11 - 00:37:40:21
Cullen
Of the yeah, perhaps it was budgetary and.
00:37:40:21 - 00:37:56:08
Clark
Maybe that was a budgetary situation, but you know, but only slowly in the you know, I don't want to give the impression, though, that the whole film is shot this way. There's definitely some conversations where you might normally have, you might use wider shots or two shots.
00:37:56:08 - 00:37:56:14
Cullen
Or.
00:37:56:21 - 00:38:17:13
Clark
Or wider Over the shoulder is where you really see both characters talking. And those are kind of some of the instances where you really see these close ups and you usually see that today. It's in those circumstances where maybe you'd have a wider over the shoulder and now you just have I mean, seriously, it's like from chin to top a head or, you know, from like neck to top of head close up.
00:38:17:13 - 00:38:22:23
Clark
So it's the people look beautiful but it is a little bit does stand out well.
00:38:22:23 - 00:38:48:18
Cullen
And that's the other thing too is that you're not because this film is 235, but it's not anamorphic. It's it's a spherical wide screen. And just so it's probably a two perf, you process, right? You're not getting the advantage of having an anamorphic lens. Of course, if you want to shoot on a long lens like a 50, you're still getting the 25 width, you're still getting the the horizontal value of a 25 millimeter lens.
00:38:48:18 - 00:38:49:13
Cullen
So yeah.
00:38:49:17 - 00:38:49:22
Clark
In an.
00:38:49:22 - 00:39:03:20
Cullen
Instance like this where like let's say, you know, James Foley wanted just close up, close up after close up, had this been shot on a real anamorphic lens as opposed to spherical lenses, you would have almost gotten more width from those shots and it wouldn't have felt so.
00:39:03:20 - 00:39:05:03
Clark
Tight, so tight and.
00:39:05:03 - 00:39:14:06
Cullen
Close up. And and so that's kind of an interesting choice to there is is that they didn't shoot on anamorphic, they shot on spherical lenses. And I also think it's funny that.
00:39:14:18 - 00:39:18:08
Clark
Oh yeah, of course a lot of this is shot out exterior at night.
00:39:18:17 - 00:39:44:13
Cullen
So it's likely that the lens like anamorphic are always going to be slower lenses than, than here. So I think a lot of it was yeah. Just like it'll be hell to try and shoot this on anamorphic at night considering that we don't really have the time or the budget to light intricately at night. But I also think it's one thing that I noticed that's really neat is like every close up of Christopher Walken inside, there's always like this underlying this like that comes from like at the table in the room.
00:39:44:13 - 00:39:44:21
Cullen
There are.
00:39:44:21 - 00:39:45:12
Clark
Some scenes.
00:39:45:12 - 00:39:45:23
Cullen
Where it's.
00:39:46:06 - 00:39:52:01
Clark
Really obvious and it's totally unmotivated and you notice some other places where we have unmotivated.
00:39:52:01 - 00:39:52:22
Cullen
Like, Yeah, yeah.
00:39:53:08 - 00:39:56:17
Clark
Which, which, you know, that doesn't bother me necessarily.
00:39:56:18 - 00:40:06:07
Cullen
Yeah, I don't mind it, depending on the style and I would say like another moment of unmotivated light is when they drown. I can't hear the character's name, but this, this guy that's kind of like you, sort of like Lester.
00:40:06:07 - 00:40:08:04
Clark
I think this is Lester's. Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:08:15 - 00:40:29:12
Cullen
And so they drown in the woods and. It's this night They're in, like, this kind of, like, little pond in the middle of the night. And there's this very clear spotlight that is, like, shining down right on the part of the pond that they drown him in. Again, it was one of those things that, to me, again, likely was just a thing that they couldn't have an intricate set up because budget and time was too short.
00:40:29:12 - 00:40:49:02
Cullen
But to me it was like one of those things Again, I don't count this as a negative towards the film because it's still like I'm still learning something about like what I would do, but like if I were to shoot that scene, I would take that light, I would drop it down to the level that they were on and I would put it kind of almost perpendicular to them so that you only almost see the outlines of the actors.
00:40:49:02 - 00:40:51:00
Clark
And then it would be of motivated. You think?
00:40:51:00 - 00:41:13:06
Cullen
Yeah. And so and I would dim it down and make it less. But it really is I mean, it does just sort of look like a spotlight, right on the two guys. It's not, you know, So I think that that there's definitely moments like that throughout the film. And and that was kind of thing that was interesting is that almost every element of this movie, there were moments that I really liked and there were moments that didn't not necessarily didn't work for me, but more so, like disagree.
00:41:13:06 - 00:41:14:13
Clark
Just thought, hey, I do it differently.
00:41:14:21 - 00:41:33:21
Cullen
So, so on. But I thought that that's interesting that nothing in the film was like totally a B. It was very it was a very mixed kind of thing. So like because as I said, there was shots in this movie that I think are absolutely beautiful. You know, the conversation Christopher Walken and Christopher Penn at the end, this is this really beautiful shot that was posted.
00:41:35:00 - 00:41:57:09
Clark
By my friends supper. The Last Supper? Yeah. Where they're kind of posed where the gang is is mulling over the next actions they need to take. And yeah, they're all sitting at the table and we've got this beautiful now that is wide. We have this really wide shot and this beautiful haze and the light coming in across them, this beautiful God rays kind of coming through the window.
00:41:57:17 - 00:42:22:15
Clark
And we have this slow, slow, slow push and it's all one shot. We never break in and, you know, and start doing like singles or anything of the conversation I mean, there are some extremely beautiful shots. I think we had to mention his name. And boy, I'm going to apologize now for probably mispronouncing his last name. But the DP on this film was one Ruiz and Gia.
00:42:23:16 - 00:42:24:20
Clark
I'm so sorry.
00:42:25:08 - 00:42:28:18
Cullen
But yeah. And Shia, you have the.
00:42:30:01 - 00:42:44:15
Clark
Cinematographer and he's done a ton of work with David Mamet would be and Mike Figgis. But, you know, this is his fourth film. And, you know, so his first film was in 1984, and he also.
00:42:44:15 - 00:42:45:10
Cullen
Did Glengarry Glen.
00:42:45:10 - 00:43:04:14
Clark
Ross. Yep. And he did Glengarry. He did house games. He's done a lot of. He did. I'm trying to think there were a few other Mamet films. I yeah, he did Spartan and he did Phil Spector, which Mamet wrote. So he, but I think his work overall is really actually quite nice.
00:43:04:14 - 00:43:09:18
Cullen
Yeah. I mean there's the one shot right after Terry is assaulted by Christopher Walken.
00:43:09:20 - 00:43:10:07
Clark
Yeah.
00:43:10:07 - 00:43:19:09
Cullen
The film that it's her and her mother sitting at the table. I thought that like it's a really beautiful shot where you get this like a natural light coming in through the screen door and that just kind of pulls back.
00:43:19:09 - 00:43:19:18
Clark
A few.
00:43:19:19 - 00:43:20:22
Cullen
Of them. Yeah.
00:43:21:02 - 00:43:21:08
Clark
Yeah.
00:43:21:12 - 00:43:36:15
Cullen
So there's a lot of really great stuff. And again, even the stuff, the shots that are motivated like or the shots that I pointed out as, as you know, I would do differently. They still look good. You know, at the end of the day, they still do look really good.
00:43:36:15 - 00:43:55:22
Clark
It's good texture, there's good depth. And, you know, and most importantly, and I think this is key for all cinematography. I mean, it's it it it's motivated by the story. It works well with the story. It's there's a lot of visual storytelling going on here. You can tell a lot about the relationships of the characters by, you know, how they're presented together.
00:43:55:22 - 00:44:10:03
Clark
So yeah, I, I have to say, like it's, it's an especially for the budget. The cinematography of this film rises well above the cinematography in most of the films that this film would have been released, you know, around.
00:44:10:16 - 00:44:26:08
Cullen
And I think that the other big thing too, for me at least, is like if a movie has really bad cinematography, it's not really worth talking about. So so the fact that we are like really picking this apart and looking at it and analyzing it, no, it's more so proof of, you know, it's a content that it's interesting.
00:44:26:08 - 00:44:39:15
Cullen
And there's again, as I said, with in terms of the direction I will take a choice that that you know, doesn't necessarily line up with my instincts a thousand times over over no choice at all or nothing. It's boring.
00:44:39:15 - 00:44:44:13
Clark
Or something. Just boring. Yeah, well, there's no shots I want to steal. So if you do exactly.
00:44:44:13 - 00:44:55:19
Cullen
Yeah, they're. They're actually some really, you know, just a lower shot for, like, the light that goes below walk. And it's like it's a little bit on the nose in a few scenes where it's very very clear, but it works.
00:44:56:06 - 00:45:07:16
Clark
Even though I mean, even in my mind, I'm like, this is this is me holding a flashlight under my chin while I tell a ghost story at the campfire. I mean, literally, I'm like, it still works.
00:45:07:16 - 00:45:11:12
Cullen
And walking is such a great facial structure for it to like the way that it's. Well, let's.
00:45:11:12 - 00:45:17:07
Clark
Talk about that. The performances is area where this film, I think really shines.
00:45:17:07 - 00:45:17:23
Cullen
Yes, I think.
00:45:18:04 - 00:45:35:18
Clark
I mean, you know, I think you've got an extremely strong performance from Sean Penn. And, you know, you've mentioned him a little earlier and we were talking about how his performance here is very understated. And it is. And it's, you know, that the film that he made right before this film and that's another film that I highly recommend, which is the Falcon and the Snowman.
00:45:36:01 - 00:45:57:02
Clark
I mean, his character is over the top. I mean, it is way out there, but so that's his performance right before this one, you know, So it's not something you would instantly and automatically expect from Penn that he would have this kind of nuanced and subtle performance. Yeah. Acquire it performance. I would actually call this like a shy performance almost, actually.
00:45:57:02 - 00:46:03:10
Clark
I mean, yeah, that does have a swagger. He does have a confidence, but he's actually kind of a shy kid.
00:46:04:01 - 00:46:13:04
Cullen
And even in the moments where, like, you'd expect, you know, his girlfriend has just been shot and killed, like he's not he's not doing the, you know, stellar.
00:46:13:04 - 00:46:14:15
Clark
He's like, thank God.
00:46:15:02 - 00:46:25:04
Cullen
And, you know, it's very much he just kind of silently, I would say the most he gets up in terms of emotion is is at the end of the kind of the climax scene in the kitchen.
00:46:25:10 - 00:46:35:18
Clark
Can we have an extra like a like a special like a special edition of this podcast where you do some monologues from like Streetcar or say, could you okay.
00:46:35:21 - 00:46:40:14
Cullen
Because we'll go through a whole bunch of like Summer and Smoke and Streetcar Named Desire.
00:46:40:14 - 00:46:45:10
Clark
Because I thought that was just fantastic, man. I mean, I don't know, man. Were you meant to be.
00:46:45:10 - 00:46:46:12
Cullen
Rebel Without a Cause?
00:46:46:12 - 00:46:52:13
Clark
Were you meant to be behind the camera? Because I don't know, buddy, you have a manager yet? Colored because.
00:46:53:00 - 00:46:53:11
Cullen
You, I.
00:46:53:12 - 00:46:54:10
Clark
Me, I could help you out.
00:46:54:17 - 00:46:57:10
Cullen
You know, cast me as the next. Next.
00:46:59:04 - 00:47:01:02
Clark
The next is what would you want to be, Marlon?
00:47:01:02 - 00:47:04:17
Cullen
I was going say, Geraldine, but I was like, There already are several of those.
00:47:05:21 - 00:47:08:00
Clark
I think Jimmy Dean is sausages.
00:47:08:05 - 00:47:09:21
Cullen
Yes, that's a good point. Yes.
00:47:10:09 - 00:47:15:06
Clark
Oh, so I guess. Yes, we could cast you as the next Jimmy Dean. Well, maybe I'll be the next Sean Penn.
00:47:15:06 - 00:47:20:21
Cullen
We'll do a remake of At Close Range, but I will go crazy with it.
00:47:21:00 - 00:47:25:20
Clark
I could be I could be Chris Walken because I am old enough. I'm about his age when he played that.
00:47:25:20 - 00:47:29:02
Cullen
And I don't want anything to do with your dad. Oh.
00:47:29:14 - 00:47:50:07
Clark
So let's I mean, that's another you know, Chris Walken, you know Chris. So apparently, I mean, obviously I kind of already I, I already told the story about how Penn actually was kind of the prime mover behind this project. He had the script. He brought the script to Foley. So he was and he is the reason why the film was was financed, as I understand it.
00:47:50:07 - 00:48:11:00
Clark
But, you know, they really had to fight for Chris Walken. It's my understanding that the studio didn't want him, that he was not on the list at that time. He was you know, he'd done The Deer Hunter. But this is you know, that's almost a decade ago. Yeah, I don't really he hadn't been in a lot of big films, so they didn't consider him to be a box office draw at the time.
00:48:11:00 - 00:48:34:03
Clark
So they wanted to omit a much bigger name, basically. So they really had to fight Foley and Penn for Walken. But I'm sure glad that they did it. Yeah. You know, Foley was talking about in the commentary for the film about how different the two actors worked, and this is always fascinating to me. Most of my background in study and experience is in acting.
00:48:34:03 - 00:48:52:17
Clark
So this is an area where I'm just really interested in how people work, because for every actor there's a different way to work. Every actor works a little differently. But apparently, you know, Sean had worked with the director, they'd honed in on the character. You know, Sean had had the script and worked with the director for like a year before.
00:48:52:22 - 00:49:16:23
Clark
The Chris Walken comes in a little later and they work so differently that Sean was very, very meticulous and specific with his character. But Walken was like much looser and kind of, you know, improvising a bit and kind of feeling things out, you know, on set during takes. And so it's interesting that they had such different experience. But there's a fun little story.
00:49:17:16 - 00:49:32:03
Clark
The scene at the end, which I think is a fantastic scene between the two of them, right where Penn confronts his father, gunpoint in the kitchen after he had attempted to kill him and had successfully killed his girlfriend.
00:49:32:13 - 00:49:33:05
Cullen
And his brother.
00:49:33:14 - 00:49:58:10
Clark
And his brother. Right. I mean, yeah. And his brother is. So he's killed his brother. He's killed his girlfriend. And Sean is riddled with bullets himself, is patched himself up and he's holding Walken at gunpoint. I think it's a fantastically acted scene. And I think Walken's performance especially is outstanding. But hearing Foley tell the story, apparently, Chris, he could not remember his lines to save his life.
00:49:58:10 - 00:50:00:23
Cullen
And it almost kind of works.
00:50:01:13 - 00:50:10:22
Clark
You know, it's like he doesn't even hardly have any lines. I mean, it's not like he has a monologue or something. You know, he's kind of just reacting. You know, to question it. Like, you know what? No, you know, he's just kind of responding.
00:50:10:22 - 00:50:24:17
Cullen
Do you think I killed your brother? You didn't kill your brother. And I love the accent. I love I you know, I mean, I've been I've been getting drunk and going to Newry bars. I mean, his the whole.
00:50:24:18 - 00:50:31:09
Clark
Thing. But yeah, so there's not much there. But apparently they had to put his lines on cards behind behind the camera.
00:50:31:09 - 00:50:33:02
Cullen
That's hilarious for the Marlon Brando.
00:50:33:06 - 00:50:52:23
Clark
But it works out so well because it's like, you know, you think Chris is like he can't look a son in the eyes. You know, it looks like he's you know, he's just this this huge cunt, this just like cauldron of terror that he's being held at gunpoint. But but this, you know, but also, like, how can I find my way out of this?
00:50:52:23 - 00:50:53:13
Cullen
What sort of an.
00:50:53:13 - 00:51:10:06
Clark
Arrogance still about like arrogance still or this? You know, he's trying to you know, I'm your father. I still have the power. You may have the gun, but I am your dad. I still control you. You know, there's that all that going on. And a lot of it is just like he's looking over to the side to read his lines off the card.
00:51:10:20 - 00:51:33:14
Cullen
Yeah, I mean, I think, honestly, it's one of those rare situations where that almost works, though, because he does great. Yeah, there's definitely what I read from that scene and without knowing that is just that like he's like he's not going to do it like, you know, right. You know, I'm like he, like just kind of this, like, perceived again, this arrogance of this character to just be like, you know, on son, come on, you're not you're not going to shoot your old man.
00:51:34:01 - 00:51:45:14
Cullen
So I think that that's really interesting that that actually was something that was possibly accidental just from the fact that he had that, which is, again, also funny because he really doesn't have a lot of lines. You know, there's not a.
00:51:45:16 - 00:51:46:17
Clark
No, we just funny, he's not a.
00:51:46:17 - 00:51:52:01
Cullen
Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now where he, like, refused to memorize a three page. I'm just improvise.
00:51:52:04 - 00:52:10:14
Clark
Yeah, just improvise. But, you know, kind of was just, you know, kind of illustrating though, that the looseness that, you know, that you know. Yeah, it's different that Walken was sitting there, you know, studying his script for hours and hours and hours. Yeah. And I don't mean to tell that story to make it seem like Walken didn't care about his performance or that, you know.
00:52:11:18 - 00:52:36:19
Clark
But but from Foley's perspective, it was like I get that it seemed like Walken had just kind of frozen up. Yeah. And that's why not that he didn't care which me feel fantastic because every grandfather, every time I hear a story about somebody who I admire, who is clearly good at what they do, when you're reminded that they're just human and they freeze up to from time to time, I'm always like, Oh, who?
00:52:36:19 - 00:53:01:22
Clark
Okay, well, then, you know, I'm still I'm human too. All Okay, So yeah, I actually love those stories, but, but it would have been a blast to kind of see these two work together. I think that the bad guy, quote unquote, that Walken puts together for the father character in this film is just dynamite, man. I mean, yeah, I think this is one of his strongest performances, frankly.
00:53:02:09 - 00:53:34:11
Clark
And it's just this that that he just nails that this his character is just scary as all hell Yeah. I mean, just cold and ruthless, but totally charismatic. Completely charismatic. And he's got this beautiful combination of those two things, right? Dangerous and charismatic. And you put it together and it's just outstanding. And you can totally see why these sons would be riveted by this guy.
00:53:34:11 - 00:53:49:03
Clark
Right? He drives the cool cars and, you know, he's he's like fun. And, you know, devil may care. I mean, right. He's this, like, cool, hip dude. It's almost like a rock star has come into this tiny little trailer park.
00:53:49:03 - 00:54:16:12
Cullen
Yeah. And there are similar, I would say, showing these sort of like fathers in movies that are sort of like that, where it's like the dad is kind of absent but comes back and it's this cool crowd like, he's flirtatious. Wild. Yeah, exactly. And then and so yeah there's definitely that that's kind of a classic trope in a way, but it is because not a negative sense and much more a sense that it it works really well for the movie.
00:54:16:15 - 00:54:37:13
Clark
Well, in reality, of course, what's happening is that you've got a man who's twice as old as this boy who has never grown up himself. That's like what's actually happening. And so to the child, this guy looks super cool because he drives a sports car and, you know, he's he he his interests are literally the exact same as the interests of an 18 year old boy.
00:54:37:13 - 00:54:38:19
Cullen
But yeah, anybody who's.
00:54:38:19 - 00:54:43:01
Clark
Watched this guy is 40. But this guy's family, his interest should be very different.
00:54:43:01 - 00:54:44:10
Cullen
He's we all know people like that.
00:54:44:13 - 00:54:56:23
Clark
We all know people like that. But that's okay. But that's kind of these like stunted boy men. You know, the only people they do look cool to are are these really young kids? Because these kids don't have anything to compare.
00:54:56:23 - 00:54:58:14
Cullen
And they've got no honor and. Yeah.
00:54:59:02 - 00:55:18:07
Clark
Oh, and it's interesting to know, too, I want to say, you know, that that you're right in a sense that this film is kind of a gangster picture in some senses, but but never and I don't think at least my interpretation, I don't think they ever glamorize the lifestyles of these characters. No, I don't think that they're romanticized at all.
00:55:18:14 - 00:55:39:02
Clark
I think that you see these guys as pretty crusty dudes, and they don't they aren't fancy. They live in trailer parks themselves. It's not, you know, but it's but it's funny. I do want to mention really quickly, you know, so in preparation for this and generally I enjoy doing this anyway because I'm weird. I like to go watch old movie reviews.
00:55:40:06 - 00:55:59:07
Clark
So I'm watching Siskel and Ebert review of this film, you know, in 86 when it was released and it's so funny. You've got Siskel here. He starts off first talking about the film, and he's just overwhelmed with how violent the film is, right? He's like, Well, I just I don't even know how somebody like he's like, Yes, the performances are great.
00:55:59:07 - 00:56:29:23
Clark
Okay. Sean Penn and Christopher Walken are greatness film. But boy, I really wish they wouldn't have you know, they would have found a better vehicle because it's just so violent. I can't stand it. And I'm like, okay, that's interesting because, you know, flash forward to today and I'm thinking, I mean, even when you step in, you know, let's say six, six, six, eight years later, when you get into Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction, I mean, this film is quite frank, very tame, very, very violence compared to any kind of films that, you know.
00:56:30:12 - 00:56:31:03
Clark
So I.
00:56:31:16 - 00:56:38:09
Cullen
Think of like the, you know, Sean Penn gets shot in the face at one point, but it's just kind of more of a little.
00:56:38:09 - 00:56:39:00
Clark
Buck shot.
00:56:40:06 - 00:56:41:00
Cullen
That he pulls out.
00:56:41:00 - 00:56:43:20
Clark
And we've got we've got the murders we talked about. I mean, the.
00:56:43:20 - 00:56:44:08
Cullen
Drowning.
00:56:45:00 - 00:57:07:15
Clark
But I think it's, you know, yet the violence is impactful. It's impactful violence, Right. The way it's shot. You know, any time you've got a father killing his own son and being ruthless about it, you know, the way that the violence is set up and the way it's told, and then it definitely is impactful. But it isn't I don't think it contains any more violence than many, many films.
00:57:08:22 - 00:57:28:14
Clark
But I do want to say to. So I just thought that was funny. Now. So Siskel, he like thumbs down, you know, thumbs down. Ebert My man, he liked the film. So I said yes. So I was like, happy to see, okay, well, at least that close range got Ebert's thumbs up. But so I you know, it's kind of funny how how those things changed.
00:57:28:14 - 00:57:35:00
Cullen
And I think I'm going to start doing that, though, watching the watching the reviews because that's actually a fun kind of little.
00:57:35:00 - 00:57:44:02
Clark
I mean, especially these old ones. I don't want to go back and look at, you know, because you can type in like at close range or any other film reviews on YouTube, for example, and you know, you're going to get it's.
00:57:44:04 - 00:57:44:21
Cullen
Contemporary.
00:57:45:00 - 00:57:51:16
Clark
Contemporary reviews. And I'm not concerned with that so much. I want to watch the film on my own terms and I can decide what I think about my own. Take a look.
00:57:51:16 - 00:57:52:09
Cullen
At the reaction.
00:57:52:10 - 00:58:20:16
Clark
But it's fun. Yes, it's fun to see these time capsules of responses for the film when it was actually contemporary and came out. So I think it's interesting. Well, speaking of contemporary, let's talk let's will wrap up our our our podcast about this film with soundtrack and music. We've not touched on that one yet. Not too much, but, you know, we've got a really, really sparse score from Patrick Leonard here now.
00:58:21:00 - 00:58:21:23
Cullen
Very, very Yeah.
00:58:21:23 - 00:58:23:14
Clark
We had a What was your thought on that?
00:58:23:21 - 00:58:32:00
Cullen
Really? It's just I mean, the score is really just the one melody of the the of the Madonna song called.
00:58:32:08 - 00:58:33:07
Clark
Live to Tell Now.
00:58:33:07 - 00:59:02:03
Cullen
Live to Tell. Yeah. It's really just that kind of like there's no and it's really only used I would say sort of like either over montage or transition. There's not really any moment where there's like an impactful score during any of the moments of tension or things like that usually tends to be left silent in this. But yeah, I mean, there's not, in my opinion, too much to say really about it, other than that it, it, it doesn't feel out of place if it works.
00:59:02:03 - 00:59:07:21
Cullen
It's not necessarily the, you know, music that I love in movies that just kind of very.
00:59:08:12 - 00:59:09:15
Clark
Well John Lennon's.
00:59:10:00 - 00:59:17:05
Cullen
Yeah it's not John William number I heard it's not you know but no, it works. I think that that's what's important is that it works for the movie.
00:59:17:12 - 00:59:33:12
Clark
I mean, I was just going to say I like it, so I'm going to I'll go out on a limb and I'm going to say I actually really enjoy it. Witnessing. Okay, Now, would it be the proper score for any other film? No. But was it the right score for this film? I think, yes. Yeah.
00:59:33:20 - 00:59:34:01
Cullen
Yeah.
00:59:34:08 - 00:59:57:23
Clark
And, you know, yes, you're right. I mean, there's basically what you have are just modifications on the same theme kind of throughout the film. And you're right, they aren't there I don't think to to heighten impact or and thankfully in my opinion, to tell the audience like how you should think about what's going on right now. Yeah, they're not they're not emotional cues.
00:59:57:23 - 01:00:28:22
Clark
They're not action cues. And I'm okay with that. I really kind of see this their atmosphere. It's almost like an ambient music, you know, soundscape kind of in the background. I mean, they do punctuate moments, Don't get me wrong. But, but I think that overall, when you tie this in with the story, with the cinematography, with just, you know, the rest of the film as a whole, I think that it really does a good job of of of kind of giving you this, you know, setting the atmosphere for the story.
01:00:29:05 - 01:00:52:16
Clark
Yeah, Yeah. You know, so I don't know. I like it and I will even I will go one step further, even go like way out on a limb and say that I think that lived to tell is actually a very good song. And it is I think Madonna's best song out of her entire repertoire. I think that'd be careful.
01:00:52:16 - 01:00:54:02
Cullen
The Madonna fans are going to come after you.
01:00:54:02 - 01:01:13:05
Clark
Well, I didn't say, hey, look, you know, you could have a different favorite song. But let me tell you why. I mean, it's so Madonna felt like when this song was actually written that she wasn't going to sing it. She felt like it was not in her register and. Right. And make the arguments. And, you know, here and there about the quality of her singing, you know, and all these kind of things.
01:01:13:05 - 01:01:37:13
Clark
I won't do that. But she felt like it was outside of her register. And I think she was kind of pushed to to go ahead and give it a shot. I think that it's actually one of the most vulnerable performances that she gives in a song and which you don't see from Madonna very often. You don't see her being kind of vulnerable, actually, quite the opposite, I think, in her art and in her life.
01:01:37:20 - 01:01:46:13
Clark
But that's a whole other topic for a whole other thing. But I just yeah, I for whatever reason, I think it's her best song. I think it works great here and there. You have it?
01:01:47:16 - 01:02:01:09
Cullen
Yeah. Fun movie. Definitely would recommend it if you've got Amazon for I think it's actually on the MGM channel on Amazon Prime, which I've got, which should be, I think amalgamated into Prime anyway soon because they just bought that whole.
01:02:01:18 - 01:02:05:03
Clark
And of that in Canada up there because I know it's different.
01:02:05:15 - 01:02:09:15
Cullen
Yeah I'm not sure if you guys have I it's the MGM channel here. I'm not sure what.
01:02:10:00 - 01:02:15:18
Clark
Yeah. So check it out. As with all these things, check it out online. I actually saw it on Blu ray. Right?
01:02:15:18 - 01:02:16:02
Cullen
You don't.
01:02:16:03 - 01:02:34:09
Clark
Yeah. And there is there's actually a recent imprint. It's actually very difficult to find. It's not released under the studios like, you know, archives or back catalog. It's actually I think it was I'd have to go and look now I can't remember but a couple of different small imprints.
01:02:34:11 - 01:02:42:02
Cullen
Because it was Orion, I think, that distributed it initially. So yeah, Orion sort of has had a shaky past few days for sure.
01:02:42:10 - 01:03:07:01
Clark
Yeah, Yeah, exactly. So they've not released it, but it is available through some other channels, so. All right. Yeah. Well, on that note, Cohen, as always, man, it's been a blast. I appreciate you. I appreciate you being willing to check out one of my favorite films from my childhood, and I'm glad that you enjoyed it. That's awesome. And hopefully everybody listening, if you've not seen the film already, maybe this has inspired you to go check it out.
01:03:08:05 - 01:03:16:01
Clark
Anyway. New Until next time, sir, and everybody else out there. We'll catch you soon.