Cullen
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the 34th episode of Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. I'm Cullen McFater and as always, I'm joined by Clark Coffey.
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Clark
Hey, hey, hey, hey.
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Speaker 3
Hey, man, it's going great. I couldn't be more excited for the film that we are about to discuss today.
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Cullen
Yeah, the grand reveal.
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Speaker 3
The grand reveal.
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Cullen
I've read the title of this episode. We may be doing Francis Ford Coppola's Rumble Fish.
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Speaker 3
From.
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Clark
1983.
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Speaker 3
Yeah.
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Cullen
And which Yeah, your is your.
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Speaker 3
It's my baby. Yeah. I you know in the same way so we've we've done you know we did Mad Max the trilogy and I talked about how that was, you know, a really important series of films from my childhood.
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Cullen
And Spielberg.
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Clark
Warrior.
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Speaker 3
But, but, you know, if if you held a gun to my head and you said, please, nobody do that. But if you held a gun to my head and somebody said, okay, you got to pick one. You got to pick one film that like sums up your love of cinema. So that's that. I mean, I don't know, another way to make a more significant statement than that as far as what's your favorite film?
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Speaker 3
So the film that sums up my love of cinema more than any other film I've ever seen is Rumble Fish. Mm hmm. So I.
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Clark
And.
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Cullen
I hadn't actually never, I knew.
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Speaker 3
Have never seen it.
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Cullen
So I had seen The Outsiders, which was made kind of back to back with this.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
Not planned. You know, when they were doing The Outsiders. He wasn't, he hadn't prior to that being like I'm going to do a double, you know. SC Hinton feature kind of thing. But midway through the production of The Outsiders, he kind of realized that he wanted to do Rumble Fish, and so he and Hinton used their days off from The Outsiders to write this screenplay.
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Cullen
Yeah, and there's a few changes from the screenplay. Ah, from the book. But it's actually quite similar, as far as I'm aware. I've never actually read the Rumble Fish book. I've read The Outsiders and Seen and stuff like that. But yeah, this is the first time that.
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Clark
I that's so very.
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Cullen
In stark contrast to Clark, who, you know.
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Clark
As a kid. Well, it'll be great.
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Cullen
You kind of throughout your life was me. It was I first seen it, yeah. You know, in the past few days. So.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, I think that's going to be great because, you know, whereas I, you know, I have this, like, rich personal history with it. And, you know, I can speak to to that. I mean, you know, what I can't do, though, is speak with any objectivity to this film. So that's going to be fun that you're going to be able to do that.
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Speaker 3
And, you know, you're also going to have a unique perspective, I think a little bit from, you know, I grew up in the Midwest and so, you know, this film was shot in Tulsa and we can talk about this a bit more as we go through the podcast. But, you know, for me, this film very much like feels close to how I grew up and where I grew up.
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Speaker 3
And, you know, for you, having not grown up in the States, it'll be interesting to kind of, you know, you'll have a different take a little bit on the geography of this film and everything too.
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Cullen
So yeah, you don't really have Midwest culture if you have prairie culture.
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Clark
But I think what's.
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Cullen
Interesting about that, you you mentioned that this does sort of relate to both our relationships with the movie and the movie itself is that the U.S. is very much built kind of like around the coasts. Like the coasts are the most populated. They're kind of the big parts of the states. And the center is, you know, it's the flyover states, Right?
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Cullen
Right. Whereas here it's very you know, like I live in Toronto and Toronto is only a 45 minute flight to New York. But Toronto is not near the ocean. It's it's you know, our East Coast goes out a lot more east than the U.S. East Coast. So to get to, you know, Newfoundland or even Nova Scotia, it's a good two or three day drive.
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Cullen
Yeah. And those places are very, you know, not totally a sparsely populated. There's cities there, but they're not the big financial, economic, cultural centers like in the States. We've Vancouver out West, of course, which is on the coast. But but you know, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are kind of the big three cities here. And Montreal and Toronto are both located pretty centrally within the country.
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Cullen
So, yeah, we kind of don't have that same like the desire of, of like opportunity being on the coast or yeah, it's like this drive to go out to the coasts whereas the states really doesn't. It's a big theme in this movie is this drive to escape kind of the Midwest and you know yeah. Get to get to I guess you could call it like the end goal, which is the ocean.
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Speaker 3
Get to the ocean. Yeah yeah. Well and that western expansion and kind of manifest destiny, those are I think those are things that are wrapped up a little bit into the story too. Yes. Yeah. So yeah, we'll get to talk about all those things. But, you know, hopefully if you're listening, you've seen this film and if you haven't, boy, I mean, clearly, as you can tell, I highly recommend you see it.
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Speaker 3
But, you know, just to kind of give like a little bit of an over book, I mean, selected mentioned colon, it's based on a book by Susie Hinton, and Coppola wrote it with Hinton, like you said, while they were working on Outsiders, which was also written by S.E. Hinton. She also wrote text Text. It's a trilogy of stories for young adults.
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Speaker 3
Kind of is not that clearly, you know, like literature for young people existed before. Hinton Of course. I mean, Tom Sawyer and Catcher in the Rye. There's a lot of books, but but she is kind of credited with kind of creating or popularizing the modern like literature for youth.
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Cullen
The genre on its own.
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Clark
Yeah. So did you read.
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Cullen
Like The Outsiders and stuff like that when you were in middle school and stuff? Because I did.
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Clark
It was. Yeah. So I read Outsiders.
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Speaker 3
And I trying to remember I almost feel like it might have been canon. I almost feel like it was part of the curriculum, but I did not. And this is wild. I know everybody out there is going to you know, as much as I love Rumble Fish, how could I have not I have not read Rumble Fish. Interesting.
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Cullen
Okay.
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Speaker 3
Not read the original book, which of course, now that I hear myself say that I really should do. So it's on my list. But I mean, you've got such amazing talent in this film. Like we said, you know, Coppola directs. You've got Matt Dillon starring as Rusty James. You have Mickey Rourke, and I'll talk about him more when we get to the performances.
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Speaker 3
But to me, this is one of the most significant performances of my young career and or the young life, rather. I mean, sorry and was a significant impetus for me to even pursue acting and filmmaking. We've got a young Diane Lane. We've got a really young Nicolas Cage. Yeah, I think this is maybe his.
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Cullen
Moonstruck pre all that. Yeah, yeah.
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Speaker 3
He's like 19. I think it's amazing you've got a young Chris Penn Diana scar, you've got Dennis Hopper first.
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Cullen
Noted the Coppola alum.
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Clark
And you've got Tom Waits. Watch.
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Speaker 3
I mean, it's amazing. And look, you're talking about a black and white film shot on that beautiful plus 5231 that Eastman stock that at least in part that the Elephant Man that we recently had was shot on in color. And I know you're super excited about this. This thing was shot wide, wide, wide, Very wide.
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Clark
Yes.
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Speaker 3
A lot of this is shot at, you know, less than ten millimeters, 9.8, you know, 25 and 35, I think is maybe the longest lens they used except for there's one kind of walk and talk where Laurence Fishburne Come on. I did.
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Clark
Yeah. Lawrence is.
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Cullen
In it. It was also in Apocalypse Now.
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Speaker 3
Who's also in Apocalypse Now? I mean, it's just it's just I mean, this this film is just bursting at the seams with talent and all this youth and energy. It's such a such a such a fun film. So, yeah.
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Clark
Let's talk I mean, let's jump in.
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Speaker 3
Then. Let's talk about kind of and compare and contrast our personal experiences with the film. I mean, let's start with you. You've just watched it in the past couple days. Like, tell us tell me about your experience with the film, what you thought watching it. Yeah.
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Cullen
As I said, you know, The Outsiders was in my curriculum as a kid in middle school. And we watched the movie then. And I remember not like I knew, of course, through Francis Ford Coppola was I think it was probably grade eight when we when we watched it. And so I seen The Godfather. I'd seen Apocalypse Now. And I think the Outsiders kind of underwhelmed me because of that.
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Cullen
And so had I known that this was made back to back to that before going into it, I likely would have had a different impression going in. And I probably would have thought, okay, I didn't love the Outsiders, so I might not love this one, but I actually didn't know until, you know, basically while I was watching it, realized that half the cast was the same, same location.
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Cullen
And so afterwards, you know, found out that, of course, they were shot back to back. And I loved it. You know, again, I didn't know what to expect. I had no idea going into it. I knew it was Coppola and I knew, you know, who was in it. I knew vaguely what it was about, but didn't realize how how artistic the film was, how, yeah, you know, almost transcendent of, of like time in terms of like decade set or period set that it, it pulls so much from so many different aspects of especially American life.
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Cullen
And so I think that that's really it was really interesting to me just the way that it handled all that material and how the characters again, like the characters, the relationships between the friends almost speak like they're coming from the 1950s, but it's like they play, you know, a stand up arcade game at one point. They so it's not set in the fifties.
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Cullen
There's it's you know and then.
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Clark
Dennis Big timeless.
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Cullen
Yeah you know he's the father but Dennis Hopper plays this kind of almost like vagabond depression era, like fedora wearing flask drinking drunk and it's like this really interesting, you know, blend of almost like all of the 20th century in the United States and all these different cultures and climates that the states kind of has. It kind of boils them all down and puts them into this one motion picture while doing so in this avant garde.
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Cullen
Yeah, like French new Wave style. And I thought that, you know, again, it was I like watching a movie and being, you know, feeling like I've got the rug swept from under me, like feeling like I had no idea what I was expecting and that this very much wasn't what I was expecting. I love doing that. And I like that experience.
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Cullen
And so I think that going into this and also that it really talked to my sensibilities about that, you know, and both you and I have kind of spoken about this before on the podcast, but that, you know, plot to me is never something that's super vital. I'm never I'm not a plot person. I don't really like at you know, as I always say, I could watch a movie that's 9 hours of like beautiful images of trees I like.
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Cullen
I liked like the visceral imagery and film. I think that that's what really speaks to me. And so I'm never someone who's like going to sit down and be like, Well, this doesn't use the three act structure. You know, Save the Cat says that you should.
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Clark
Introduce conflict.
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Cullen
In this point in the movie and if you.
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Clark
Don't right.
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Cullen
You failed. Yeah you know I'm not really interested in that aspect in the perhaps that's why I don't really consider myself much of a screenwriter even though I have written screenplays. It's not really the point of of filmmaking that I like dive in on in that I really, I really, you know, care about on a really deep level.
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Cullen
And so this again, this this film really spoke to me on that level as well, that it was it kind of spoke to my sensibilities and what I like about film, which is which is about the visceral kind of experience of watching, not necessarily about understand or analyzing what's going on moment to moment in the script, but rather just kind of letting the experience wash over you and give you those emotional impact moments and give you the the the elements of filmmaking that I think really stand out to me, which is like really strong performances, really great camerawork and and and masterful rich storytelling in the cinematography and things like that.
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Cullen
And the direction. That's what really gets me in this movie kind of has all of those things. So so that was my first impression of it again.
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Clark
So were.
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Speaker 3
You surprised? Were you I mean, obviously, I'm assuming that it was within seconds that you realized, well, this is not this is not outsiders.
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Clark
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not.
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Cullen
I wouldn't say surprises is the right word because, again, I didn't know that they were related. I had I was unaware. But I would say that definitely satisfied as probably a bit like almost this feeling of of watching it and knowing it was Coppola, who's a director that I really respected, admire even his lesser works. I like a lot.
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Cullen
Like, again, The Outsiders, I think is a good movie. It's just not my favorite of his. Yeah. And so I think that watching this almost made me go this is what I thought The Outsiders was missing. Now that if the Outsiders took this less because the outsiders also, to be fair, is much more of a planned out studio film, whereas this was because it was so off the cuff, he kind of just went and I think it was who was he who to do the outsiders with was an MGM or Fox or someone, whoever the studio was that was doing The Outsiders said that they didn't want to do Rumble Fish.
00:13:00:06 - 00:13:14:18
Cullen
So he struck a deal with Universal. Yeah, kind of last minute. And so that almost worked out in his favor because Universal didn't have the chance to kind of jump on it and make all these notes in pre-production and sort of control the production of this film. He really had so much.
00:13:14:19 - 00:13:32:20
Speaker 3
And Coppola even put in his own money. Coppola even even self-financed a bit of the roughly $10 million budget. But that my understanding is that they actually ran out of money. And Coppola, as he's had to do before with Pablo's now another film I mean, he puts his money where his mouth is and he he had to self-finance.
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Speaker 3
Yeah.
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Cullen
So that very much like Herzog does as well. Herzog is yeah. Several times and yeah, yeah. I think that that kind of shows, you know, when a filmmaker really is passionate and, you know, to get into kind of what your relationship was the that the this film is very personal for Coppola that Coppola is, you know, he says that he connected to the source material because of his relationship with his brother.
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Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
Who is dedicated Dedicated to.
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Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. So I think that it's really interesting that this is, you know, such a personal film for Coppola. And of course, you know, I've also got an older brother, but I think that your relationship with your brother is likely very different than than my relationship with my brother. So I'm curious to see in kind of here about, yeah, what what was your, you know, first viewing?
00:14:12:15 - 00:14:14:15
Cullen
What why is it stuck? Why is it stuck with you?
00:14:14:15 - 00:14:38:00
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. I mean that. Good question. So, you know, I can't it's so it's funny. I, you know, I can't remember the exact, you know, the first time I ever watched it that the first viewing. I have lost that memory. I don't know when I think about this film, for me, it's like it just seems like this is a film that I have loved and cherished for so long that it's like a part of me, if that makes sense, you know?
00:14:38:00 - 00:14:52:08
Speaker 3
So I kind of have the vaguest of recollections that and it's very likely that how I first watched this film was how I first watched many of the films that were significant to me when I was a child, which is like purely by chance.
00:14:52:08 - 00:14:53:13
Clark
Which doesn't.
00:14:53:13 - 00:15:17:15
Speaker 3
Exist very much in today's day and age with how, you know, stories are consumed. I refuse to use the word content, you know, screw that. Yes, but you have films. I can say cinema. I can say movies. I can say flicks. I can say a lot of different things. But I'm not ever going to call this content. You know, today's day and age, you know, I'm going to, like, date myself and sound like an old fart.
00:15:17:15 - 00:15:26:05
Speaker 3
But, you know, it's like it's hard to watch something by accident today because you have to pick it. You have to go on Netflix or Hulu or HBO Max.
00:15:26:05 - 00:15:28:17
Cullen
Or where nobody's sitting on like AMC and like reality.
00:15:29:03 - 00:15:32:16
Clark
Right? And you know, and it's like, you know, you you might.
00:15:32:16 - 00:15:49:22
Speaker 3
Spend a half hour, you might spend more time trying to find something to watch than you do watching it. But you're in command. And, you know, when I was a kid, that wasn't the case. And, you know, I thought I was like just, you know, over the moon delighted that we occasionally had HBO, that we had cable was like a huge deal.
00:15:50:18 - 00:16:02:03
Speaker 3
And so likely that's what it was, you know, likely this was like something where I was like, up, you know, in the middle of the night in my bedroom on my probably would have been like a 12 inch TV.
00:16:02:12 - 00:16:02:20
Clark
With the.
00:16:03:07 - 00:16:03:18
Cullen
Rabbit.
00:16:03:18 - 00:16:21:12
Speaker 3
Rabbit, rabbit ears. But, you know, but we did have cable, you know, and I had like this this I buy room for a large chunk of my childhood was like in an unfinished basement. And I lived at the end of it and it was like bare concrete walls with like, like the top. You were the Elephant man.
00:16:21:12 - 00:16:24:03
Clark
I was with the Elephant Man.
00:16:24:03 - 00:16:42:14
Speaker 3
Yeah, I know. I you know, it's funny that you mention that. I do often use that line to my wife. I'm not an animal. I don't know if she believes me still yet to this day, but. But, yeah, you know, So it was like my cave. I mean, it's like this almost a literal cave. And I had this, like, piece of Kovacs that was, like, strung from the rafters, you know, in this unfinished ceiling.
00:16:42:20 - 00:16:57:13
Speaker 3
And it, like, came down and connected to this tiny little 12 inch, you know, TV. I think. I think I actually was like, lucky enough to have a color TV by then, because the first TV I had was black and white for the biggest, you know, for a large chunk of my childhood. And I'm sure this film came on.
00:16:57:20 - 00:17:15:14
Speaker 3
So I saw it, you know, two, three years after its after its theatrical release likely on HBO. And I'm sitting, you know, alone in the middle of the night and watching this film. And it really blew me away. And I didn't I likely had no idea who the hell Francis Ford Coppola was on any conscious level at that point in time.
00:17:16:12 - 00:17:37:17
Speaker 3
You know, even though I may have likely been familiar with Godfather, I don't think I really knew directors by name or anything at this point. You know, I probably was ten, 11, 12 something baby. Spielberg was the only person I really understood to be a director who made films. But yeah, I mean, it just it's it has for so long been such an important film to me.
00:17:37:17 - 00:18:05:02
Speaker 3
And that importance has changed. I mean, when I first saw this film, I probably resonated more strongly with, you know, I was captivated by this idea of leaving the Midwest and of going west and of like kind of fulfilling a certain distance destiny. I you know, clearly this film has kind of these mythic, like mythological undertones, right? These kind of like like a lot of great stories.
00:18:05:02 - 00:18:35:03
Speaker 3
There are these kind of universal truths that are embodied in these characters and embodied in this story. And, you know, that likely just really resonated with me. I think I was captivated by the motorcycle boy and, you know, this idea of this like this quiet wisdom after having gone on this journey and it was a journey that I wanted to go on and I was excited to take and and now, you know, the story means a lot of different things to me, though.
00:18:35:03 - 00:19:06:20
Speaker 3
You know, at that time when I saw it, I likely I'm sure I was old enough to have had a brother, but we're ten years apart and so he would have been very young and I was young. But over time, the meaning has really changed a lot to me when I watch the film now, you know what resonates with me a lot is the story kind of you know, it's still that growing up in the Midwest and wanting to leave that, and certainly I did not by any stretch of the imagination have a familial situation like I didn't have you know, it didn't have a father like Dennis Hopper portrays in this film or anything
00:19:06:20 - 00:19:27:15
Speaker 3
like that, you know, not even remotely. I mean, the opposite of that. But still, it was, I think, this very natural desire to want to leave where you're at and strike out on your own and make your own way and be your own person and, you know, for whatever reason, existentialism has kind of like always spoken to me, which I guess which is an extrapolation of this idea of like westward expansion.
00:19:27:15 - 00:19:49:14
Speaker 3
If you're an American, which is kind of, you know, realizing that that that you're in control of of your purpose and that you get to build that and that you get to decide that. And it's both a blessing and a curse that it's it's not a given. So you do have the you're empowered to define your own purpose, but then you also have have the responsibility of defining your own purpose.
00:19:49:21 - 00:20:07:12
Speaker 3
And so I think that's very much a part of what this film's about. And, you know, of course, time is a big part of this story as a theme. And that spoke to me. I mean, I don't know why, but when I was a kid, I always had this fear of running out of time. I always I was like always terrified that everybody around me was going to die and that I was going to run out of time.
00:20:07:12 - 00:20:27:05
Speaker 3
I don't know what the heck still to that day, to this day, that's about. But I mean, even as a very young child, I was like always terrified my grandparents were going to die any minute or that my parents were going to die, that, you know, it's like that, you know, I was going to run out of time and I wasn't going to be able to do the things I wanted to do in life, which is kind of nuts to think about it now.
00:20:27:05 - 00:20:42:02
Speaker 3
It's like a 12 year old worried about that. But it did. I would just cry all the time about that. Every time I would like, my parents would leave and my grandparents, rather would leave for a visit. I had this period of time where I would just like sob that I was thinking like everybody around me was going to die and I would run out of time.
00:20:42:02 - 00:21:05:18
Speaker 3
So those were things that spoke to me about it. Then. I mean, also too, just on a surface level, you know, you talk about how images, you know, the images are so powerful in this film and they speak to you on such a primal level. And it's not about plot. And, you know, large part of it is that I could try to explain to you why it meant something to me, but I don't know if I really I can't explain all of it away.
00:21:05:18 - 00:21:07:14
Clark
Yeah, the images are so powerful.
00:21:07:22 - 00:21:15:09
Speaker 3
Mickey Works performance was so captivating to me. There's just something kind of primal about it that. That just captivated me. But, I.
00:21:15:09 - 00:21:28:05
Cullen
Mean, again, it's it's interesting you say that because it's it's similar to kind of my response to to Butch Cassidy, which was it's interesting being put on the podium and kind of saying like, yeah, explain why this means.
00:21:28:05 - 00:21:29:03
Clark
Something. Because. Yeah, because.
00:21:29:03 - 00:21:48:12
Cullen
Especially when you see it at such a young age, it's difficult to really talk about what you know. Again, like last week I was talking about, okay, there were a few things in it that that made, you know, I grew up hiking the Rocky Mountains, so there was like esthetic things there that made me connect to it. And you're talking about, you know, your brother and things like that and growing up in the Midwest.
00:21:48:12 - 00:22:03:05
Cullen
But when it comes to like the really like I'm sure there are other movies set in the Midwest and about longing to leave the Midwest that didn't connect with you that yeah, you know that that you know, you don't really feel so it's it's such a combination. It's just like a perfect storm of like it in that was in different elements.
00:22:03:05 - 00:22:04:04
Speaker 3
That right there at the.
00:22:04:04 - 00:22:08:17
Cullen
Right time and it's a great feel you know that's a great, great feeling when.
00:22:08:18 - 00:22:09:01
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:22:09:16 - 00:22:12:15
Cullen
When a movie like I think that's the thing when a movie speaks to you.
00:22:14:07 - 00:22:14:13
Speaker 3
I mean.
00:22:14:21 - 00:22:23:14
Cullen
I had a similar experience. The problem not recently, but within the last four years, I think it came out Ladybird, the Greta Gerwig film.
00:22:23:17 - 00:22:24:02
Speaker 3
Okay.
00:22:24:21 - 00:22:41:22
Cullen
I really liked that movie a lot. And you know, it was similar thing where it was like it just something on a very fundamental level, just exactly like it was just like every night, honestly, that I really related to the character as, you know, as literal. Sure. That you're not Matt Dillon. You were probably Matt Dillon as a kid.
00:22:42:20 - 00:22:44:23
Cullen
You know, you weren't going out and having gang fights and.
00:22:45:06 - 00:22:50:06
Clark
Stuff like that. Well, you know, but there's let's keep I don't know that about. Yeah, I know. Perhaps.
00:22:50:08 - 00:22:52:08
Cullen
Yeah, that's the life you left behind in the Midwest.
00:22:52:15 - 00:22:56:04
Speaker 3
But I will not give away all my secrets here on the podcast.
00:22:56:04 - 00:23:13:21
Cullen
Yeah, and, but again, and it's like I'm not, I'm not the cat lady bird in that movie, but there's something, again, just about like the almost a desire element of it. And just the circumstance and the things that go on movie that it almost makes it feel like it's like this, like other part of you like you in another life.
00:23:13:21 - 00:23:14:13
Cullen
Yeah.
00:23:14:21 - 00:23:16:05
Clark
That's a you know, and.
00:23:16:05 - 00:23:39:09
Speaker 3
I do want to add to I want to I think you're right. I really like how you just put that. And I want to add to that too, because not every film does this or not. Every work of art does this. So now fast forward 30 plus years later and I'm watching the film. I actually watched it over the course of I watched it a couple of times over the course of last night and today and this morning in preparation for this podcast.
00:23:39:09 - 00:24:11:18
Speaker 3
And now very different colors emerge. I had no pun intended, it's a black and white film, but but very different texture emerges now. For me, a lot of different things stand out for this film, and I was actually emotionally impacted by this viewing. It really caught me off guard. It it knocked me off my feet. I was surprised at how emotionally impactful this film was by the time I got to the end of it and in a very different ways.
00:24:11:23 - 00:24:33:22
Speaker 3
Now what stands out to me more about this film is my own history of. So I did leave the Midwest and I did move to California, and a lot of California does get in the way of making it to the ocean. And I and I, you know, I left home. I didn't make my way out to the to California until later.
00:24:33:22 - 00:24:58:16
Speaker 3
But I, I left home at 18 and I left a younger brother who was eight, who I was close to. I mean, I still am, but I was close to him even though we were ten years difference. And I left like like all kids, you know, I left for college like most kids do. I left for college and I'm 18 and I'm so absorbed in my own life and my own adventure that I frankly didn't think about very much the fact that I was leaving my brother.
00:24:59:01 - 00:24:59:10
Cullen
Right.
00:24:59:17 - 00:25:24:23
Speaker 3
And and what kind of impact that would have on him. And it wasn't until much later that I started to understand what an impact that had on him and what that you know, and what that kind of means, what the cost of like striking out on your own sometimes can mean for those around you. And and he even came out and I won't go so far as to say followed me out to California.
00:25:24:23 - 00:25:49:14
Speaker 3
I would never be so vain as to think that that was his impetus for coming out here. It was likely some of his reasoning, but he followed me out to California later. And so there's these strange parallels to our to my personal story in relationship to my brother. And there are even others that I won't waste all of our time going into great detail here, just from the perspective of kind of what our personalities are like.
00:25:50:06 - 00:26:07:01
Speaker 3
You know, that I kind of can very much relate to Mickey Works character, and there are aspects of Matt Dillon's character that I can see in my brother in some kind of high level generic ways, but just a lot of things seem to. So now it's a very different film to me. None of that existed. None of that existed when I first watched this film.
00:26:07:06 - 00:26:15:15
Speaker 3
And it first kind of burrowed its way into my heart and mind. And now it's grown into this. And if that's not the definition of some, you know, kick butt art, then I don't know what is.
00:26:16:00 - 00:26:40:14
Cullen
Yeah, that's something that can kind of yet again mold and almost transform as Yeah, like that there's different aspects to it there's different avenues to enter into the movie. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that and again what's interesting to me too is I have an older brother, but I wouldn't say that, that my relationship, my older brother is reflected in this movie at all.
00:26:40:14 - 00:26:57:23
Cullen
And so it's not something that I, you know, related to on that level. But I and I would even almost say that there wasn't a ton in the movie that I related to really on any level, because, again, he is a very much, I would say, like an American movie. And I don't mean that in the sense of like it's a big Hollywood picture.
00:26:57:23 - 00:27:23:13
Cullen
I mean that it kind of exudes this elements of of the United States. And, you know, it's similar in a lot of ways. And as close geographically as scan of the U.S. are, there's a lot of cultural elements and a lot of things that are really, really different, like vastly different. You know, there's like canyons between these aspirations and even just down to the idea of, you know, you mentioned leaving for college and things like that, like that's not even really a thing here.
00:27:23:13 - 00:27:40:16
Cullen
People go away for school, but it's not such a huge thing here as it is as it is in the states of like this, like I'm going out of state for school and stuff. So there's there wasn't a ton of relation for me for it. But what I think is interesting about that is that despite that, it still was very interesting to me.
00:27:40:16 - 00:27:54:19
Cullen
It still was something that almost like I liked to watch is almost an examination of that stuff. And because of that, it almost like it was it was really neat to kind of watch and and you know, it's not like I was totally blindsided by these elements of American culture in that I had no idea.
00:27:54:19 - 00:27:57:18
Clark
That these things you've never seen before. Yeah, but.
00:27:57:18 - 00:28:26:05
Cullen
But it was just it was sort of interesting again to see such like a boiled down version of it. I think that's really what spoke to me a lot, was that, yeah, it was like just a thousand different elements of, of American culture all brought into this was a really, really well thought out really well-crafted well almost think piece by Coppola and which is interesting too because the book I believe is actually set in the fifties which again, the the the movie isn't the movie is set kind of it's it's I mean, it's obviously.
00:28:26:11 - 00:28:27:18
Speaker 3
I think sixties I.
00:28:27:18 - 00:28:28:07
Clark
Think or maybe.
00:28:28:07 - 00:28:33:07
Cullen
The sixties. Yeah. Yeah. But the book has a very specific Yeah. Setting terms of time.
00:28:33:11 - 00:29:07:17
Speaker 3
I think it's an interesting combination. I mean you have the author of the story Susie Susie Hinton, you have a nun. She grew up in Tulsa. She grew up and I think lived her entire life, if I'm not mistaken, in in that area. So you have a very strong singular voice coming from this geographic and cultural area. And then you have Coppola, who I think has, you know, family like a, you know, different aspect of but still very strongly American culture kind of American family culture, aspects of that.
00:29:08:13 - 00:29:37:01
Speaker 3
I mean, even in films like The Godfather, films are kind of, you know, these extrapolations of American family culture to some extent. Yes. And yeah. And, you know, so I think you put those two things together. Are these those two people together, those two minds together. And I and I feel like that's that's why you have such an important or kind of, you know, a very strong specific flavor of that of what you're talking about that you can feel as a non Midwestern American person watching this film.
00:29:37:03 - 00:29:42:20
Speaker 3
You know, and it's likely what spoke to me. So personally without me even realizing it, you know.
00:29:43:09 - 00:29:44:11
Clark
Because that's where I grew up.
00:29:45:00 - 00:29:54:11
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. Which is interesting. Yeah, It's a really neat, I guess, dissection of like, yeah, why? It kind of affected each of us.
00:29:54:11 - 00:29:55:13
Clark
Because I mean, you know.
00:29:55:14 - 00:30:16:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. I think it's amazing. I mean, let's like, so it's, it's, I always love to start there. It's that our kind of personal relationship shifts to the film. I again like I keep kind of reiterating but that's it's so interesting to me I love to compare those kind of things. But let's talk about some other aspects of the film.
00:30:16:05 - 00:30:32:07
Speaker 3
I mean, you know, Coppola starts out by stating that he wanted to create an art film for kids. And I watch this film now. You know, I'm 45 years old and I don't know, probably none of this really stick out to me, Like on a conscious level when I was like ten. But I watched this film and there's like an orgy scene.
00:30:32:07 - 00:30:33:08
Speaker 3
My God, there's like.
00:30:33:17 - 00:30:36:01
Clark
It's nudity. It's not it's not like.
00:30:36:18 - 00:30:56:11
Speaker 3
You know, it's not outrageous. And this I mean, there's a small amount of nudity and it's suggestive more than, you know, graphic or anything. So I don't mean to imply that there's like this graphic orgy scene. There's not. But certainly I think it might be more sexually suggestive and more physical than like maybe any other scene he's ever done in any of his other films.
00:30:56:11 - 00:31:01:16
Speaker 3
I mean, he very rarely has this kind of, you know, nudity and physical intimacy. And but there's.
00:31:01:17 - 00:31:06:14
Cullen
A cut scene in Apocalypse Now of, like the Playboy bunny, isn't it? That's in the Redux. But, you know.
00:31:06:14 - 00:31:23:17
Speaker 3
But it's not. Yeah. Especially considering that these are children. But again, it's shot in a way where it's it's not it doesn't feel gratuitous. But for you know but this is like he set out to make an R-rated kid's film, which is like and I mean I want to say mind blowing, but I'm just going to say it's like amazing.
00:31:23:17 - 00:31:30:20
Speaker 3
It's awesome. I don't you likely would not see anything like this made today, sadly. I would say the language or if it.
00:31:30:20 - 00:31:36:01
Cullen
Was, it would be, you know, they buried it with you. Yeah. Never. You never.
00:31:36:01 - 00:31:56:01
Speaker 3
Get. Yeah. I don't think it would fly. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and especially, I mean like when you add about I mean the fact that it's black and white, that's not going to fly. The fact it's got no plot. I mean there's, there's basically no plot in this film. It's a, it's kind of like a study of existentialism, you know, with this like overarching theme of time and time running out.
00:31:56:01 - 00:32:23:09
Speaker 3
You know, you've got it's a very small film. It's a very personal story. And I just I just I don't know that this film could be made to date, which is heartbreaking to me. And maybe it could. And maybe I'm just you know, maybe it would end up somewhere not in a theatrical release, but but even in it's even in its day, this film was not very commercially successful.
00:32:23:17 - 00:32:24:05
Speaker 3
And it's only.
00:32:24:05 - 00:32:26:18
Cullen
Been critically I mean I mean, yeah, critics loved it.
00:32:26:18 - 00:32:27:00
Clark
Yeah.
00:32:27:03 - 00:32:57:05
Speaker 3
Yeah. So it's only been kind of in hindsight that the film has kind of, you know, developed a little bit of a following and, you know, has kind of garnished some, you know, some love in hindsight, but, you know, some other cool things about this film, too. And I'm not sure how much of this that you kind of read about, but the process for, you know, the preparation that Coppola went through to put this together is like kind of it's pretty innovative, especially for its era and pretty unique.
00:32:57:05 - 00:33:09:14
Speaker 3
I mean, he he kind of devised this really cool system of almost like, I don't know what you'd call it, like live storyboarding, basically. They would they they would sort of like.
00:33:09:14 - 00:33:11:07
Cullen
An early version of pre-viz, I'd say.
00:33:11:08 - 00:33:11:23
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:33:11:23 - 00:33:39:05
Speaker 3
Absolutely. It's like totally like it's like an early version of pre-viz, but with actual live actors, live performances, not CGI, obviously. So they had this big chalkboard and so they'd have their, you know, somebody there on the team. I don't know if it was specifically a storyboard artist or, you know, production design, I'm not sure. But you know, somebody would be there and they would kind of sketch out the the set for the scene and then they would get the actors in front of a blue screen with a few prop props.
00:33:39:14 - 00:33:59:09
Speaker 3
And they would actually rehearse like, like a theatrical production, like if I were putting on a play and I were working with an ensemble cast and I would rehearse this for a couple of months. That's exactly what Coppola did, which of course in film is extremely rare. Yeah, And they actually I think they they performed the entire film and rehearsed it and honed it in.
00:33:59:09 - 00:34:22:01
Speaker 3
And, you know, at Coppola worked very diligently and it literally like a for a long period of time with these actors, which I think is fascinating. And I think it shows and, you know, Coppola is also been kind of, you know, technically innovative as well. Yea, yea, yea, yea, yea. And did you get to see some of that?
00:34:22:01 - 00:34:23:19
Speaker 3
I was really impressed with?
00:34:23:20 - 00:34:34:09
Cullen
I didn't I didn't see I haven't seen the actual like footage of those rehearsals. Yeah. But I am definitely going to look it up after because it sounds like not only does it sound very interesting, but it sounds like a really useful tool.
00:34:35:08 - 00:34:36:10
Clark
I know in.
00:34:36:10 - 00:34:55:19
Cullen
The past where I have used my like one of my, you know, one of the things that I do for previs is I'll take you know, I just actually for the feature I'm doing went out to one of the locations the other day and what I'll do is basically bring my phone out and sort of pointed at something and like use my fingers in front and sort of say like, okay, here's our two actors using.
00:34:55:19 - 00:34:56:08
Clark
You're standing.
00:34:56:15 - 00:34:57:08
Cullen
In the frame.
00:34:57:08 - 00:34:58:14
Clark
And then this way.
00:34:59:04 - 00:35:06:06
Cullen
Literally it's finger puppets. Yeah. And so I just basically narrate these videos and then I'll do some of the camera movements very simply, of course. Not like a tripod or anything. Yeah.
00:35:06:15 - 00:35:07:10
Clark
And just it's a phone.
00:35:07:21 - 00:35:20:21
Cullen
But it's one of the things that I really and I don't do it for the whole movie. Like I've never I've never done that. But it's interesting that we bring this up now because I didn't even know that he had done that. And I think that that's a really, really almost like ingenious way of.
00:35:21:00 - 00:35:21:07
Clark
Well.
00:35:21:14 - 00:35:26:21
Cullen
Being able to plan something like that, especially because he had such, you know, it was kind of a movie that was made on short notice.
00:35:26:21 - 00:35:28:00
Clark
In your way, you know?
00:35:28:05 - 00:35:39:07
Speaker 3
Yeah. I'm curious. I mean, I have a request. I, I would love to see, like a scene of your finger puppet theater. I'm glad whenever.
00:35:39:23 - 00:35:40:04
Clark
It's.
00:35:40:04 - 00:35:47:00
Cullen
Honestly, all of the cast and crew that I sent it to say that it's like their favorite things because it's just like they oh, they always they always will bring up the fingers.
00:35:47:00 - 00:35:47:18
Clark
So whenever, you know.
00:35:47:18 - 00:36:06:18
Speaker 3
You've got to do right, when you when you have a release on physical media, you've got to include like the finger puppets. The finger puppets, right. As like an extra or a featurette or something. You got to like, I'm putting in my request. Now I want to see it. I am like, excited. I can't wait.
00:36:07:01 - 00:36:08:06
Clark
So yeah.
00:36:08:18 - 00:36:30:23
Speaker 3
But I mean, that's awesome. I mean, I've always been fascinated too, with, you know, and I know he did this a lot with outsiders as well. I mean, there was a long, extensive, you know, casting and rehearsal process for that film. So, you know, a lot of these actors who were in The Outsiders had already been through this long process with the outsiders as well.
00:36:30:23 - 00:36:56:05
Speaker 3
And I think, you know, especially working with younger actors now, clearly all of the people in this film are very talented and they've all gone on to show that they're talented every one of them have had an interesting career. So but but I think, you know, even with very talented people, you know, I think a rehearsal process is usually a productive thing.
00:36:56:05 - 00:37:22:20
Speaker 3
And unfortunately, it doesn't happen very often in film because of budgetary constraints. Yeah, but but it's something I frankly just also really enjoy having come from theater. It's a process that I actually enjoy, both as an actor and as a director. So I was particularly fascinated about this and I would be curious to explore modern technology that would enable this kind of pre visualization plus rehearsal process kind of combined into one.
00:37:23:13 - 00:37:42:05
Speaker 3
And it's kind of like motivating me to look to see what kind of technology might exist out there to do this, you know, in a modern way without, you know, drawing on a big chalkboard. I don't even know how they did that. It was like they somehow had a that digitized the chalk drawings, creating a sketch that they could use in blue screen.
00:37:42:05 - 00:37:53:11
Speaker 3
I don't even know how they did that. But yeah, it was like a giant tablet. So it's probably like an app you can get on your iPad now and do that, you know too. But I can't draw, you know, worth to, you know what I mean?
00:37:53:11 - 00:37:55:06
Cullen
Either.
00:37:55:06 - 00:37:55:17
Clark
Me either.
00:37:56:00 - 00:38:05:00
Speaker 3
So speaking of drawing, speaking of painting, speaking of painting with light, let's talk about cinematography. Do you like that? I'm like, so good with Segways.
00:38:05:00 - 00:38:07:15
Clark
I'm always like a second nature.
00:38:07:19 - 00:38:25:20
Speaker 3
It's like second nature. I mean, the cinematography, I think, is one of the first. It's to me, it's the first thing that's well, the score stands out instantly, but we're going to get to that. The stories, the score stands out instantly, that percussive Stewart Copeland score. But the cinematography was that probably something I mean, right away you noticed instantly.
00:38:25:22 - 00:38:27:10
Clark
Yes. Yeah, Well, I.
00:38:27:10 - 00:38:45:23
Cullen
Know. I mean, I know just on a basic level that that the influence is very interesting. But again, the part of the things that were really interesting to me were the things that that seemed to, again, kind of go beyond those influences and the almost like the I wouldn't say the on set choices because I don't think that they were like improvised by any means.
00:38:45:23 - 00:39:06:20
Cullen
But the, the Coppola choices to me were, were what I really liked that again I like seeing things like that where it's you can tell the influences of something, you can tell look again with the set painting or the time lapse photography that he kind of used from Koyaanisqatsi and was inspired by Tony Scott's You to do or the.
00:39:06:20 - 00:39:08:12
Speaker 3
Various like German expressionism.
00:39:08:12 - 00:39:09:20
Cullen
Yeah there's Yeah, exactly.
00:39:09:20 - 00:39:15:00
Speaker 3
There's the Painted Shadows there. I mean, just the fact that it's black and white, like, I think seeing.
00:39:15:00 - 00:39:25:04
Cullen
A director kind of take that and Yeah. Morphing into their own thing. Yeah. So he's what's, what's kind of the primary interest to me is Yes. You know, how does somebody move beyond the and Stephen.
00:39:25:04 - 00:39:33:10
Speaker 3
Byrne shot it. Yeah. And he if I'm not mistaken he was the the DP the cinematographer for outsiders, right.
00:39:34:06 - 00:39:40:07
Cullen
Yes. Yeah. I think most of the cast and crew carried over, or especially most the crew was carried over from the Outsiders. Yeah.
00:39:40:08 - 00:39:41:05
Clark
Which is, which is.
00:39:41:05 - 00:40:01:08
Speaker 3
Really amazing to me because it shows this range that, I mean, I personally was I mean, obviously, like, you know, when I first watched this film, I didn't know, you know, you know, Bernard from Adam or anything else. I mean, that would have never crossed my mind. But now as an adult watching it, I'm really impressed that he shot both of these pictures.
00:40:01:14 - 00:40:03:14
Speaker 3
They look so completely different.
00:40:03:17 - 00:40:04:13
Clark
Yes. Yeah.
00:40:04:21 - 00:40:33:23
Speaker 3
But I mean, yeah, I mean, immediately, this high contrast, beautiful black and white photography, that to me just is mesmerizing. I, I am just mesmerized by the quality. This photography, the I think, you know, 35 was the longest lens they used with the exception of one small, you know, walking talk scene where they used a longer lens and I'm not sure what, but probably 100 plus, you know, some of this stuff is shot on a sub10 millimeter lens.
00:40:34:04 - 00:40:48:22
Speaker 3
But they framed it in such I mean, it's just it's just captivating. They've got so much smoke and fog. I mean, it's amazing how they make Tulsa look like a post-apocalyptic wasteland. I'm like thinking about Mad Max.
00:40:49:00 - 00:41:12:10
Cullen
The smoke was something that really was like that. What I think was really interesting to me and what really stood out to me was the that there's this you see the smoke in the opening shot as the clouds passing overhead. And then it's like the clouds are in the city. Like there's always almost this constant, like almost cloud movement or mister fog or smoke that's moving really quickly through everywhere, cityscapes and.
00:41:12:10 - 00:41:13:07
Speaker 3
Almost every scene.
00:41:13:07 - 00:41:15:20
Cullen
Which obviously, of course, is intentional. I mean, it's very clear that they.
00:41:15:23 - 00:41:16:19
Clark
Had some sort.
00:41:16:19 - 00:41:25:06
Cullen
Of, you know, machines and generators to do that. But but I thought it was really neat that it's like bringing the sky like it was such a.
00:41:25:09 - 00:41:28:00
Speaker 3
That's an interesting interpretation. Yeah.
00:41:28:00 - 00:41:40:04
Cullen
I never I've never seen that in a movie before. And then even when were you know, that it's like it's not time lapse because it's when they're sitting in they're talking when he and Nick Cage's character who's what's midget is the name, right?
00:41:40:13 - 00:41:40:19
Clark
Yeah.
00:41:41:01 - 00:41:42:23
Cullen
When they're leaning outside the little milk bars.
00:41:42:23 - 00:41:44:06
Speaker 3
Smoking smokey smoke.
00:41:44:11 - 00:41:45:23
Clark
Make a character named.
00:41:46:06 - 00:41:47:23
Speaker 3
Yeah Laurence Fishburne is especially.
00:41:48:00 - 00:41:48:10
Cullen
Jake.
00:41:48:15 - 00:41:50:00
Speaker 3
And Cage's smoky. Yeah.
00:41:50:00 - 00:41:52:00
Cullen
Because they don't they don't really use names to.
00:41:52:00 - 00:41:52:09
Speaker 3
Not to.
00:41:52:09 - 00:41:52:20
Clark
But names are.
00:41:52:20 - 00:42:08:18
Cullen
Very, very, you know, lingo ish. But, but there's. Yeah. Matt Dillon and Nic Cage, his characters are sitting outside this milk bar, sort of near the late latter half of the movie. And they're discussing something and, you know, the clouds and the reflection of the.
00:42:09:00 - 00:42:14:00
Speaker 3
Well, they've got that beautiful special effect shot. Yeah, it's a it's a really beautiful, you know, dejection.
00:42:14:00 - 00:42:14:17
Cullen
Incredibly done.
00:42:14:18 - 00:42:16:18
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's a lot of.
00:42:16:18 - 00:42:20:19
Cullen
Your projectionist as well because the the fish being in color was also re projection.
00:42:20:19 - 00:42:44:11
Speaker 3
That's correct. That's correct. That was the way that they could do that before any kind of computer, you know, process was available. You're right. They shot a plate of of Mickey Rourke and Matt Dillon and pretending to be in front of a aquarium. Then they shot a color plate of the actual aquarium with the fish, and only the fish had any color in them.
00:42:44:11 - 00:42:54:12
Speaker 3
So when they superimpose that over the back plate, you had color fish and black and white actors. Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, it's so interesting.
00:42:54:12 - 00:42:59:06
Cullen
I'm I'm curious to know how they did that shot of the fog, them leaning against the wind like I'm actually curious.
00:42:59:06 - 00:42:59:12
Speaker 3
Well, a.
00:42:59:12 - 00:43:00:10
Clark
Process that I.
00:43:00:10 - 00:43:27:02
Speaker 3
Wish that I could reiterate. WALLACE Yeah, I wish that I could reiterate to you exactly technically how they did it. But I can say that on the Criterion Collection, they actually do have a really wonderful conversation between the cinematographer and production Design Head, and they actually discussed that and explain that shot in length. And I am so sorry that I cannot hear reproduce the perfect technical explanation.
00:43:27:02 - 00:43:28:17
Cullen
Well, that's that's homework for everyone who's.
00:43:28:17 - 00:43:29:13
Clark
Listen, it's homework for.
00:43:29:13 - 00:43:49:17
Speaker 3
Everybody. But but they did. They did. You know, it is kind of a couple plates where they've got Nick Cage and they've got Matt Dillon speaking in front of the window. But they put some kind of coating or something on the window and have some kind of projection of this time lapse photography shot in a totally different place.
00:43:50:02 - 00:44:00:09
Speaker 3
And and my explanation is not doing it quite justice, but it is awesome. And I highly recommend everybody check it out. There's a lot of actually I mean.
00:44:00:21 - 00:44:24:01
Cullen
It's funny that this theme deals with or this movie deals with the themes of kind of like the quick passage of time that when you're a kid things seem like eons again, but that that things are passing so quickly that you had this exact, you know, fear as a child of of like this idea that when your grandparents were leaving, it was going to be the last time you felt like, hey, you almost on the opposite level felt that quick passage of time.
00:44:24:12 - 00:44:47:16
Speaker 3
Well, it is kind of neat. And, you know, clocks are a common theme. I mean, I think there's practically every scene of this film has a clock. And if there's not a clock in it visually, then the score has some kind of ticking. Yeah, some clock ticking or heartbeat. Yeah. I mean, it's it is so and, you know, some people a criticism might be made that some of this is on the nose and maybe that's valid in some places.
00:44:47:16 - 00:44:55:10
Speaker 3
And you know Coppola even maybe kind of admits to that a little bit but you know what I think it works. And so whatever.
00:44:56:08 - 00:44:59:21
Cullen
It's also it's it's an art film you're allowed to yeah on the nose.
00:45:00:03 - 00:45:00:12
Clark
I.
00:45:00:19 - 00:45:01:13
Speaker 3
I mean I think, you.
00:45:01:13 - 00:45:03:02
Clark
Know let's let's talk a little bit too.
00:45:03:02 - 00:45:21:20
Speaker 3
Because, you know, you're right. I mean, we talk about all these things, the wide angle, the black and white, the smoke. And it's funny you talked about how that really stood out to you. I like your kind of your idea here, that it's almost like there's this there's a lot of this time lapse of the fast moving clouds, but then you have this fast moving smoke down below.
00:45:21:20 - 00:45:50:00
Speaker 3
And it's almost like you've brought the clouds somehow down to the earth or something. It's very interesting. You know, for me, it's so funny. I just accepted. I just accepted that there's like smoke everywhere. I don't even remember, like, thinking anything about it. I never even questioned it when I was younger. But in the commentary, Coppola talks about their kind of inspiration for some of this, at least as to kind of like ground it in some kind of reality would be that in the area they would burn.
00:45:50:08 - 00:45:51:00
Clark
Grass.
00:45:51:10 - 00:46:04:13
Speaker 3
To energy in controlled burns, to, you know, to kind of keep brush from getting out of hand. So that's kind of like their inspiration for that, or at least they're they're kind of like, we can use this explanation.
00:46:04:14 - 00:46:05:13
Clark
Justification, Yeah.
00:46:05:13 - 00:46:21:02
Speaker 3
Justification for grounding it, you know, But it's so funny that I didn't even notice. I mean, not not on a conscious level. I didn't even care. You know, Of course, you watch it, though, when you look at it and it's like these you know, there's an example where the kids get off the bus. It's Diane lane.
00:46:21:02 - 00:46:21:23
Cullen
And when they're fighting.
00:46:22:09 - 00:46:22:18
Clark
And.
00:46:22:23 - 00:46:29:12
Speaker 3
You know, Sofia Coppola, they get off the bus and it's just like there's this like giant smoke bombs going off.
00:46:29:12 - 00:46:33:15
Cullen
Everywhere. It looks like they're walking through like a wasteland.
00:46:33:15 - 00:46:34:16
Clark
Like it's not it's.
00:46:34:17 - 00:46:35:16
Cullen
Funny, but again.
00:46:35:16 - 00:46:36:17
Clark
It doesn't. It works.
00:46:37:00 - 00:46:42:01
Cullen
Yeah, it doesn't like like I wasn't sitting there going like, Oh, come on, this is, you know, I was sitting there going, I.
00:46:42:02 - 00:46:42:06
Clark
Like.
00:46:42:18 - 00:47:04:01
Cullen
They're having a tense moment in their relationship. And yeah, this again, you get it's like a motif. It's, it's this motif of like again because because of course the clouds, you know, quite obviously and quite literally are referring to a passage of time and yes, that it's like every single mistake he makes in the movie, every time he makes a bad decision, there's this like reminder that like, time's ticking.
00:47:04:01 - 00:47:05:16
Cullen
Like you're not going to have a lot of time.
00:47:05:18 - 00:47:06:07
Clark
Yeah.
00:47:06:07 - 00:47:09:00
Cullen
And so I thought that I think I think that's really interesting that that.
00:47:09:10 - 00:47:10:06
Clark
Yeah, again.
00:47:10:06 - 00:47:16:12
Cullen
And again like we talked about with the clocks and things like that. But in the music score and stuff that it's kind of on the nose but that's not.
00:47:17:02 - 00:47:20:21
Clark
But it works. They pull it off, it works and I think that it's yeah, I think, yeah it.
00:47:21:20 - 00:47:32:12
Cullen
It just adds a layer to it that I think is really neat and it's not, you know, it's not like every movie hazes and uses smoke and especially back like pre 2010.
00:47:32:13 - 00:47:33:11
Clark
Right So many.
00:47:33:11 - 00:47:40:11
Cullen
Movies were just like you know you just feel we talked about it when we were doing the Spielberg episode how those rooms are just like loaded with smoke.
00:47:40:14 - 00:47:45:08
Speaker 3
Right or any just Scott film and he Ridley Scott film the Scott Brothers they love the haze.
00:47:46:03 - 00:47:46:06
Clark
But.
00:47:46:12 - 00:47:48:20
Cullen
And I think it's a I think it's a great I honestly really.
00:47:48:23 - 00:47:50:11
Clark
I love it I love it fog.
00:47:50:11 - 00:47:51:09
Cullen
And haze and things like that.
00:47:51:09 - 00:48:01:22
Speaker 3
So I'm so motivated to shoot in black and white. Now, I can't tell you, you know, having having just recently watched The Elephant Man having just watched this again, I am so motivated to do it.
00:48:02:02 - 00:48:20:23
Cullen
You know, I'll tell you, I've never you know, as as aside from like small, small projects, I've never done a full like whether it's a short feature of course a feature in in in black and white. I've never and I've always wanted to, but I've just never really found the right project to, to kind of like it really.
00:48:20:23 - 00:48:21:08
Speaker 3
Speaks.
00:48:21:08 - 00:48:25:19
Cullen
To again I think it's I think it's really a specific what is it you've got to find? I don't know. But I love it. You like.
00:48:25:20 - 00:48:26:00
Speaker 3
It?
00:48:26:13 - 00:48:29:16
Cullen
I'm in again, this movie would be totally different if it was in color.
00:48:29:16 - 00:48:30:07
Clark
It would totally.
00:48:30:07 - 00:48:35:13
Speaker 3
Different. Yeah. Completely different experience and also be a completely different experience if it were different actors.
00:48:35:13 - 00:48:36:16
Clark
I mean, let's talk a little.
00:48:36:16 - 00:48:59:17
Speaker 3
Bit about these performances, man. I mean, yeah, it's it's, it's tough that you find so many young performers. And I think, you know, especially, you know, with outsiders, you look at who is in that, look at who's in this. I mean, Coppola clearly is and throughout his entire career is like, you know, very, very good at finding and recognizing talented people and that and then working with them.
00:48:59:17 - 00:49:12:22
Speaker 3
Well, and we already talked about the personal process for this film. But, you know, Matt Dillon, I think is perfectly cast for this, which is but this is not who he is at all. It's not like he's kind of this dumb Midwestern kid.
00:49:12:22 - 00:49:13:16
Cullen
Bad boy. Yeah.
00:49:13:20 - 00:49:28:05
Speaker 3
Not even close. Yeah. No, but he but he just he works so well. And the performance that I really, really want to want to kind of just talk about just because I was so moved by this is Mickey Works performance.
00:49:28:05 - 00:49:29:18
Clark
It's great, You and I. Yeah.
00:49:29:18 - 00:49:41:01
Speaker 3
You and I talked a little bit about this before we started. We were kind of warming up. But, you know, for I think for, for younger people and again, I'm like, I feel like I'm always talking like I'm like people's grandpa for.
00:49:41:01 - 00:49:43:02
Clark
You younger people back in my.
00:49:43:08 - 00:50:16:03
Speaker 3
Whatever. Forget it. Too bad. Sorry, I can't I can't wait to see what I sound like when I'm 65. Oh, my gosh. You know, But but, you know, but but it's true, though. I mean, you know, I grew up I was like, just coming of age, just becoming kind of like cinema. Aware when Mickey Rourke's career was first taking off with diner, with this film, with, you know, a pop Greenwich Village barfly, his early work is just outstanding.
00:50:16:03 - 00:50:40:12
Speaker 3
I cannot recommend enough for those of you who are unfamiliar with Mickey Works earlier work to go back and watch it. And it is such a heartbreaking shame to me that I don't not that I want to try to speak for him, but it's my understanding that he kind of sort of developed a resentment for the craft and the industry very much in the same way that Marlon Brando did in his later years.
00:50:40:19 - 00:50:41:02
Clark
Yeah.
00:50:41:03 - 00:50:50:08
Speaker 3
And it and of course, it shows in his life took a different trajectory And I think he's a very different, you know, performer and person now work.
00:50:50:09 - 00:50:51:19
Cullen
And the projects that he takes on.
00:50:51:19 - 00:51:02:08
Speaker 3
Are he still and he still has these flashes of of greatness. The wrestler from ten years ago or so, I think is is an example of that greatness that's still there. But I mean.
00:51:02:08 - 00:51:03:08
Cullen
Not Iron Man two.
00:51:03:10 - 00:51:03:19
Clark
Not.
00:51:06:05 - 00:51:24:10
Speaker 3
Not Iron Man two But but I just I would highly recommend and, you know, kind of maybe get a glimpse of why there was so much like doing an iron over this performer when he first hit the scene. I mean, he is just his performance is outstanding.
00:51:24:10 - 00:51:25:01
Clark
Yes.
00:51:25:01 - 00:51:26:20
Speaker 3
Outstanding in this film.
00:51:27:04 - 00:51:41:23
Cullen
It's so I think one of the interesting things that the that Coppola specifically told him to kind of study like Napoleon and, things like that. And I think that you really see that come through that that he's this really gentle, like wandering, philosophical kind of soul.
00:51:42:11 - 00:51:44:13
Speaker 3
Yeah, he's like a French philosopher for I think.
00:51:44:13 - 00:51:44:22
Cullen
Yeah.
00:51:44:23 - 00:51:49:11
Speaker 3
Who was like was kind of, you know, used as kind of this.
00:51:49:11 - 00:51:50:14
Cullen
Gentle giant, almost.
00:51:51:04 - 00:51:56:08
Speaker 3
Listen to his voice, like the vocal nature of his is so impressive.
00:51:56:18 - 00:52:14:02
Cullen
And if you want to see another really impressive raw performance that was, you know, cut out of a movie actually was the Thin Red Line. It's got a scene, a deleted scene in that movie. And and Rourke actually said at the time and still kind of refers to that as he thinks that it's some of the best work he's ever done.
00:52:14:06 - 00:52:16:22
Clark
And this is not really like that. Is there a great I think.
00:52:17:05 - 00:52:22:15
Cullen
I think you can find on YouTube, honestly, I think you can find the Mickey Rourke scene just online. Yeah, I'm sure it's on the Criterion as well.
00:52:22:16 - 00:52:24:22
Speaker 3
Maybe we'll do the Thin Red Line at some point when we do.
00:52:25:02 - 00:52:25:10
Clark
Now, the.
00:52:25:10 - 00:52:26:12
Cullen
Guy is one of my favorite.
00:52:26:12 - 00:52:27:02
Clark
Movies, so.
00:52:27:20 - 00:52:31:20
Speaker 3
Well, there you go. It sounds like we might know a future episode right off the bat and we'll save it for that.
00:52:31:20 - 00:52:56:07
Cullen
Spoiler alert. But but no, I think that it's just it really felt like this movie really goes to show how, like you said, like how talented and not that Matt Dillon is is no lesser actor by no means no no. But I think that it too to use the term Rourke you know dances around Dylan is is not again it's not me putting down Matt Dillon's performance because I think every performance no is so special The.
00:52:56:07 - 00:52:57:02
Speaker 3
Roles are different.
00:52:57:03 - 00:53:05:14
Cullen
Yeah great. But but Rourke really is like he steals every scene he's in. Yeah. You know, in it takes think of how I don't know how specifically how old he was in this movie but.
00:53:05:17 - 00:53:06:21
Speaker 3
Young 29.
00:53:06:21 - 00:53:16:03
Cullen
It's insane. Yet to be 29 and to be stealing the show from Dennis Hopper when you're on screen with him is is nuts to me. And Dennis Hopper's great too.
00:53:16:14 - 00:53:17:21
Clark
Yeah and Dennis Hopper is.
00:53:17:21 - 00:53:18:07
Speaker 3
Great in it.
00:53:18:07 - 00:53:41:07
Cullen
And Dennis Hopper, what I think is actually just a really quickly talked him is is he when Dennis Hopper gets in this movie like when he comes on screen in this movie, the energy shifts and it's really interesting like that. It's like this entire it feels like there's just like a gravity that suddenly, like, enters the scene. And yeah, I just I found that watching it like, that.
00:53:41:10 - 00:54:03:12
Speaker 3
Was like the Suns. The suns. That the suns are. AUBREY Orbiting around the father. I mean, yeah, you're right. There's this gravity and it it's, it's the first time that this family has been together in at least a couple of months. I mean, it's funny, I think they say in the film that the motorcycle boy, which is Mickey Rourke's character, he does not have and he's not named in the book or in this film on purpose.
00:54:04:11 - 00:54:34:18
Speaker 3
And that, again, kind of speaks to some of this like mythological underpinnings that I talked about earlier. But they kind of want him to exist outside of this world, you know, in a bigger way. But apparently, you know, he's only been gone for a couple of months. Well, and you talked about as a child, for most of us, you know, two months is like a lifetime if you're 16 or, you know, But, yeah, I mean, you know, the elder son comes back and and now they're here and this and this.
00:54:34:18 - 00:54:54:07
Speaker 3
Children are grown, children are older, children are orbiting this father. But yeah, it's, it's just fantastic. I it's my understanding, too, that Hopper was a little bit of a challenge to work with. Surprising. But I think the scene I think the scene where they are at the bar, which is just exquisitely shot where you.
00:54:54:07 - 00:54:55:11
Cullen
Oh my gosh, beautiful.
00:54:55:11 - 00:55:21:01
Speaker 3
Why try to go with Mickey Rourke and Matt Dillon? Kind of bookending the foreground and you have Hopper in the middle mid ground and it's so beautiful, this deep focused shot. I think that something like 40 plus takes for that because Hopper was just like not not doing whatever it was that Cole wanted from his.
00:55:21:01 - 00:55:21:18
Cullen
Mom or something.
00:55:21:18 - 00:55:22:21
Clark
Yeah, or.
00:55:22:21 - 00:55:28:17
Speaker 3
Maybe it was. I think there's some outtakes where Hopper is like, I want to do it again. I want to do it again. Can I get another take? Can I get it?
00:55:29:16 - 00:55:31:02
Clark
But well, it's interesting.
00:55:31:02 - 00:55:48:15
Cullen
Because it's like this because there's a one shot that I mentioned that I actually screenshot it because I loved it so much in that exact scene Where? Where. Hopper Exactly. It's like this close up of Hopper. You see the replay looks very similar to a lot of shots of Martin Sheen and Apocalypse Now. Of course, the black and white just adds a simplicity to it that's really beautiful.
00:55:50:03 - 00:56:10:23
Cullen
And it's just like it's unlike any other shot in the movie. It's this steady cloak like this, like probably shot on a stranger on longer than any other shot that Caitlin's like. I think I think it's probably the only shot in the movie that's shot on anything longer than, like, a 35. Yeah, And it's just this incredible, incredible.
00:56:10:23 - 00:56:32:07
Cullen
It's like the cigaret smoke is raising rising above them. And you just see this again. We talked a little bit about how it feels very theatrical. And I think that, you know, there's no performance in this movie that's that that kind of speaks to that more than Dennis Hopper's that he, like all the other performers in this movie, are very, very theatrical in a way that it feels like in a very good way heightened yet heightened.
00:56:32:07 - 00:56:32:21
Clark
And yeah.
00:56:32:23 - 00:56:43:06
Cullen
Hopper's is I could almost see, you know, Hopper entering a scene. Feels like he's walking on stage like it feels it's bizarre like it's this it's it's I can't you know much like you trying to.
00:56:43:06 - 00:56:47:09
Speaker 3
Expect not in a bad way I know exactly not it's this acting way It's.
00:56:47:09 - 00:57:03:00
Cullen
Like it's like a it's a feeling. It's it's not necessarily like a literal like you, you know, you feel like he's walking out of the wings and coming on. Yeah. But rather that this, you know, there's. There's a difference. Always an entrance on stage to me at least, is always a little bit different than an entrance in film.
00:57:03:00 - 00:57:07:04
Cullen
Just because there's the stage is such a like contained area.
00:57:07:04 - 00:57:07:12
Clark
Right.
00:57:07:22 - 00:57:29:08
Cullen
And I think that that's what I feel like with Hopper's role in this is that it's like because the way that it's it's written, the way that it's presented is very theatrical, that it just it reminds me a lot of almost like a Tennessee Williams character. Like, that's kind of what he reminds me of is this character that's plucked out of, again, this like mythology of Americana.
00:57:29:08 - 00:57:30:03
Clark
This like.
00:57:30:03 - 00:57:31:16
Speaker 3
Southern Southern.
00:57:31:16 - 00:57:34:04
Clark
Yeah. And this like dustbowl.
00:57:34:04 - 00:57:47:14
Cullen
Kind of like aspect to him and that he comes on and he's like this, this wall of, of enigma and mystery, but also this, you know, kind of like he does seem relatively caring in a way that, you know, Yeah.
00:57:47:21 - 00:58:17:13
Speaker 3
Well, there's these moments of like wisdom, right? There's these moments of like, it's not that he's I mean, I he understand words the world. He understands his sons. He understands what's going on and he understands, I think why he drinks. This is not a an ignorant character. Yeah. And we don't know much about him and we don't, you know, we hear very little about, you know, a big part of the plot, haven't talked much about plot.
00:58:17:13 - 00:58:37:14
Speaker 3
And you and I are really consumed with trying to regurgitate a plot on these podcast. But you know, other aspects of, you know, that we just get through these snippets that their mother left, their mother moved to California, their mother is living with some producer maybe still, we don't know. We don't know anything about their mother. We don't know anything about why they left.
00:58:37:14 - 00:58:44:22
Speaker 3
We don't know. Did their father start drinking before and that's why she left? Or is he drinking because she left? We don't know. Yeah.
00:58:44:22 - 00:58:54:18
Cullen
Or is is the motorcycle boy just telling this to, you know, Matt Dillon to. Don't know. Yeah. It's never, it's never we never see the mom. Yeah.
00:58:54:23 - 00:59:24:07
Speaker 3
It's and it's all the better for it. It's all the better for it because if those kinds of things were explained so explicitly, like most films feel the absolute undeniable urge to do this film would not allow people like me to give it the meaning that, you know, to be an active audience member, which is what I want to be, which is what I want from a film, and have a film become a part of my life and grow with me like this film has grown and that's the detriment.
00:59:24:07 - 00:59:32:17
Speaker 3
I just, you know, for fellow filmmakers out there, when you want to explain every single thing away in your film, that's what you take away from it. Audience Just Yep.
00:59:32:21 - 00:59:35:22
Clark
FII Yeah, exactly.
00:59:35:22 - 00:59:43:03
Speaker 3
I get them. I got to have like a moment of soapbox, right? I think that's like, that should be a thing. Like, I've just, I'm like a big gasbag of just like.
00:59:43:07 - 00:59:45:20
Clark
I just, I think, I think that it's, it's, it's been a.
00:59:45:20 - 01:00:00:02
Cullen
Pretty, like a through line for this podcast because I think that, you know, even a few episodes ago when we did The Silence of the Lambs, yeah, one of Deming's like big filmmaking philosophies is that he would rather the audience be confused for 5 minutes than to explain away every single thing in a shot, which.
01:00:00:02 - 01:00:01:14
Clark
Is which is so it's so.
01:00:02:07 - 01:00:25:06
Speaker 3
And it is very rare. It's terrifying. It's terrifying because and I will even start to see that in myself as a producer helping other people's work. And I have to really catch myself. I like if any storytelling book or any screenwriting book, rather, that you see today or any, you know, any advice that you're ever going to hear from any kind of it, it's, oh my gosh, the last thing you could possibly do is have an audience confused.
01:00:25:06 - 01:00:43:16
Speaker 3
Oh my goodness. Don't ever have an audience confused. Don't ever have an it were. So we've moved from a place so far away from that where there's such a fear, this corporate fear of, you know, oh my gosh, do we if we have any vagueness or if we have any potential for confusion, we're just going to look.
01:00:43:17 - 01:00:46:12
Cullen
For any potential for interpretation, God forbid.
01:00:46:22 - 01:00:48:18
Clark
You know, like I mean, and to be fair, there.
01:00:48:18 - 01:01:05:03
Speaker 3
Is a fine line. I mean, I understand to some extent, you know, it's like I never felt confused watching this film. I want to make that clear. I never felt like that. I was confused watching this film. There wasn't one moment that I didn't understand what was going on, that I couldn't follow the intention of the filmmaker, that I couldn't follow what was happening.
01:01:05:07 - 01:01:13:06
Speaker 3
Not one time did I feel confused. So vagueness and confusion are not the same things. They are not the same things.
01:01:13:06 - 01:01:32:12
Cullen
So I mean, perhaps to to kind of wrapped it up in a neat bow again. One of the things that like an experience I had watching a movie recently was I was watching to the Wonder, which is, you know, speaking of Malick, as we were just discussing a bit ago, this it's a movie from 2012 that Malick made starring Ben Affleck.
01:01:32:12 - 01:01:50:09
Cullen
And it's out It didn't get great reviews, but it's it's on prime if anyone it's prime it's it's I really liked it though and one of the things that very much related to my experience watching this movie was there was a point where I missed a few lines of dialog at the end of a scene. I remember what I think of like an airport.
01:01:50:09 - 01:01:52:15
Cullen
My air conditioning had gone on, so I had to turn it up or something.
01:01:52:16 - 01:01:54:15
Clark
Just distracted from Yeah, yeah.
01:01:55:04 - 01:02:05:21
Cullen
And I was like, Oh, do I go? Do I rewind it back? And then I kind of sat back and laughed to myself and I was like, No, I have no idea what's going on anyway, and I'm loving it. And like, I don't, I don't care. Like, I've got no idea.
01:02:05:21 - 01:02:06:14
Clark
What's going on.
01:02:06:22 - 01:02:21:20
Cullen
But I was just again, it was like I under, I think it was this like, it's like this subconscious understanding, like on a fundamental level, I understood what I was feeling and I was connected with the movie. It's just because I didn't understand exactly like, okay, why or that.
01:02:21:20 - 01:02:24:15
Clark
This and that's think this isn't literature, this isn't.
01:02:24:15 - 01:02:53:12
Speaker 3
Literature. And it's it's not literature. It's moving pictures. And there's a there's a place for literature and it's vital. But that's not what we're talking about. It is film. So I mean, not to go too far down the rabbit hole because I do want to talk a little bit about the score before we wrap up, but, you know, just to kind of piggyback on what you're saying a little bit, I mean, you know, one of a film that that that I very much I'm a fan of and that I very much enjoyed watching was Malick's, I think.
01:02:53:12 - 01:02:55:09
Speaker 3
Is it the new world? The New world.
01:02:55:09 - 01:02:56:16
Cullen
Yes, New World. Yeah.
01:02:57:22 - 01:03:01:07
Speaker 3
Jamestown I think it was. Or and.
01:03:01:13 - 01:03:01:21
Clark
Yeah, it's the.
01:03:01:21 - 01:03:02:21
Cullen
Pocahontas story.
01:03:02:21 - 01:03:04:09
Speaker 3
Pocahontas story in.
01:03:04:09 - 01:03:05:16
Cullen
It. Yeah. More dramatic.
01:03:06:06 - 01:03:32:16
Speaker 3
And, and it's funny, I saw that film in like a really weird way. So usually, like, I'm pretty conscientious about my film watching in the sense that I prepare a space and a time and I'm very focused, right? And I'm particular about the visual and audio circumstances of my viewing right. But it just so happened that I was at the time I was living with roommates in a home that I was not mine.
01:03:32:21 - 01:03:52:21
Speaker 3
So I wasn't in charge of the television or the audio or anything else. And this is a while back we had, like, you know, one of these ancient, huge Mitsubishi rear projection TVs that are like super damn, super fuzzy. You know, it's like each scan line is like a half inch wide, you know, because it's like 65 inches of 480, you know, And yes.
01:03:53:15 - 01:03:56:08
Clark
And it's like one of the days I had those were the days.
01:03:56:12 - 01:04:19:11
Speaker 3
And so it's like this horrible picture. And I think it was something like we had two huge, like stereo speakers and not like audio visual like not surround sound, but like just too big, huge like certain Vega stereo speakers and, and it was probably like, you know, the amplifier was like not able to decode the surround sound correctly.
01:04:19:12 - 01:04:20:21
Clark
Yeah. So like all of the.
01:04:20:21 - 01:04:33:13
Speaker 3
Like center channel dialog was lost. So I'm sitting here watching the film. I didn't put it on. I just happened to like be in the living room when a roommate was started watching it. And through the film.
01:04:34:16 - 01:04:45:20
Clark
I could understand maybe maybe 15% of the dialog, maybe. Mm hmm. And I was so captivated by the film, I was blown away.
01:04:45:20 - 01:05:10:23
Speaker 3
By the film. It was an extraordinary experience. It was profoundly moving. And that just is like every time I get in a place where I get, like, so wound around the axle about dialog, when I'm working on my own stuff, I just remind myself I'm like, Wait a minute, wait a minute. Remember that time when you couldn't even hear the dialog and you kind of like it was like half mumble, like the most of the movie was mumbling and it ended up being extraordinary experience for you.
01:05:11:04 - 01:05:14:20
Clark
As I just remember that. No, exactly. Yeah.
01:05:15:14 - 01:05:21:05
Cullen
No, it's and it's totally like again, move film is more than, than the script. It's more than.
01:05:21:06 - 01:05:21:12
Clark
Yeah.
01:05:21:12 - 01:05:22:17
Speaker 3
It's more than dialog.
01:05:22:17 - 01:05:24:18
Cullen
It's performances are more than dialog.
01:05:25:03 - 01:05:36:10
Speaker 3
That's theater. That's the theater is about dialog and television to great extent is like theater and that's about dialog. But that's, that's not film. And it's not to say the dialog is not important, of course it is.
01:05:36:14 - 01:05:39:15
Cullen
Or that or that there can be dialog heavy films that are great.
01:05:39:15 - 01:05:51:10
Speaker 3
But, but it's a different beast. It's a different beast. Well, let's let's wrap up here with with a topic that part of the film that I think is really vital to its personality and, and we've not touched on it yet. And that is the score.
01:05:52:02 - 01:05:52:18
Clark
Yes, yes.
01:05:52:19 - 01:05:53:23
Speaker 3
Copeland of.
01:05:53:23 - 01:05:54:16
Cullen
Of the police.
01:05:54:16 - 01:05:54:23
Clark
Yeah.
01:05:55:14 - 01:06:15:15
Speaker 3
Did the score for this? It's a percussive heavy score and it is absolutely unique. It is totally untraditional. It is. It's it's the vast majority of it is comprised of a lot of loops. There is a lot like car horns and.
01:06:16:02 - 01:06:16:10
Clark
You know.
01:06:16:18 - 01:06:20:00
Cullen
Like almost sounds like it's it's like drumsticks on like tin cans.
01:06:20:05 - 01:06:21:15
Clark
At some point there's a summit.
01:06:21:17 - 01:06:39:23
Speaker 3
Right. And everything is about time ticking. So there's. Yes, constitute a tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And there's there's heartbeats. There's there's all of these. And, you know, this is way back in the analog days. And so they they literally like today you go on ProTools and you make a loop and that just means that you hear a snippet of something that repeats.
01:06:39:23 - 01:06:50:03
Speaker 3
But you know, this is literally like they're splicing actual tape loops together on a big, you know, like 24 track board and they've got, you know, literally looping tape.
01:06:50:08 - 01:06:52:12
Cullen
There's a reason that they were called audio engineers.
01:06:53:05 - 01:07:05:17
Speaker 3
Right? Yeah, exactly. But it's you know, I just think it's an extraordinary piece. And I think the film I mean, it it's so important to the success of this film, to the feeling, to the tone.
01:07:06:00 - 01:07:06:02
Clark
Of.
01:07:06:04 - 01:07:10:00
Cullen
Not, I would say not expected.
01:07:10:13 - 01:07:12:11
Clark
Now, I got to tell you, tell me again.
01:07:12:11 - 01:07:32:21
Cullen
There's there's a lot of point like there's again, it's not it's definitely, you know, as you couldn't tell it's not a traditional film score but it again there's this this element to this and the outsiders that where it's like hopefully uses score in areas that I wouldn't have necessarily expected him to and it's not a bad thing, but I always thought that was really in.
01:07:32:21 - 01:07:57:04
Cullen
I remember noticing that and it was one of the things that has always stuck with me about the Outsiders, even though I haven't seen it in. So if I was in grade eight, it's been ten years at least since I've seen that movie and yet ten or ten or 11 years. And that that fact that always stuck with me was something that, you know, again, was like one of those things that I just always thought was kind of odd about it.
01:07:57:04 - 01:08:13:04
Cullen
Yeah. Then when I was like, brought me back in this movie when I went, you know, there's a moment when he's talking to his girlfriend outside and they're like, there's this like this almost drumbeat. It's got a little bit of a more of a like kind of a melody to it, but but not very melodic.
01:08:13:09 - 01:08:15:18
Clark
Yeah. And they're just.
01:08:15:23 - 01:08:20:21
Cullen
They're just standing there having a conversation and it's like there's this, there's this music below it that doesn't really.
01:08:21:08 - 01:08:21:19
Clark
Fit.
01:08:21:22 - 01:08:23:14
Speaker 3
But then it's like it's.
01:08:23:14 - 01:08:24:16
Cullen
Exactly it's.
01:08:24:16 - 01:08:26:10
Speaker 3
This is like this chasing this chase.
01:08:26:10 - 01:08:38:15
Cullen
They're wasting time and everything has an urgency. Even when they, you know, right after that they go inside and Sofia Coppola sitting beside them, who's his girlfriend's younger sister, sitting beside them on the couch. And it's like this urgency, like, go away. We don't have a lot of time, like, get out.
01:08:38:16 - 01:09:00:02
Speaker 3
And it reminds me a little bit, you know, like, like the birth history of this podcast talk, it, you know, and Herzog and Herzog almost always has these very unique and nontraditional scores for his films. And I feel like this is much at home. I could very much see the score being in a Herzog film. Totally.
01:09:00:02 - 01:09:00:23
Cullen
Totally. Yeah.
01:09:00:23 - 01:09:33:13
Speaker 3
And I just I and it's it's really quite extraordinary. And there is really an exceptional like featurette on the production of this of the score. Stewart Copeland on the Criterion Collection disc, which I really highly recommend people check out. But I, I don't know. I just want to, you know, we can wrap up now. I just want to say, I mean, I there's so much more that I could say about the film when we've really only scratched the surface in an hour, 10 minutes here.
01:09:33:13 - 01:09:56:13
Speaker 3
And, you know, I could pontificate on this well past when people would want to listen to it. But, you know, I just can't recommend enough if you've not seen the film, check it out. At the the ending of the film, I was really again, I just what I was surprised at the emotional impact the end of the film had for me still to this day.
01:09:57:16 - 01:10:11:13
Speaker 3
It's it's just the motif of the rumble fish. We hadn't talked to anything about that. But this idea that that a caged being will consume itself for those around it if they have no freedom, is another.
01:10:11:21 - 01:10:13:19
Cullen
Itself in the reflection and yeah.
01:10:14:05 - 01:10:42:18
Speaker 3
And this this just really beautiful laugh you know the finale of the film, the climax of the film where the motorcycle boy Ricky worked a mickey works character. You know, he doesn't rob this pet store. He releases the animals in the store and I and there's a really quick fun story about that. So one of Coppola's first films, The Rain People starring is that is Keaton who's in And I'm Michael Caine.
01:10:42:18 - 01:10:46:22
Clark
Oh, God. Oh, come on. I'm totally okay. We're like.
01:10:46:22 - 01:10:48:20
Speaker 3
You're like, how fast can you type into Google.
01:10:49:04 - 01:10:52:09
Clark
Urgency to get. Yeah, exactly. We need.
01:10:52:09 - 01:10:53:00
Speaker 3
A soundtrack.
01:10:53:00 - 01:10:54:05
Clark
James Caan and Robert.
01:10:54:05 - 01:10:55:12
Speaker 3
Horn is what I meant to say.
01:10:55:12 - 01:10:56:05
Clark
There's there's.
01:10:56:05 - 01:10:56:20
Cullen
Shirley Knight.
01:10:57:02 - 01:11:18:13
Speaker 3
There's a scene in that film where, if I'm not mistaken word con works at like a weird petting zoo or something. If I'm not mistaken, there's like this a lot of these small animals and they're in cages and he releases these animals in that story. And so so the scene is here in this film, right where where the motorcycle boy comes back.
01:11:18:13 - 01:11:45:18
Speaker 3
He breaks into this pet and he's releasing these birds and all these animals in his cage. Well, it's in the book. And Coppola is you know, he's working with the script on the script with C Hinton, and he's like, Hey, this is so funny. This is kind of a weird coincidence. I shot the scene and an early film of mine, and she's like, Oh, that's weird, because I actually was watching a movie with with James Caan.
01:11:45:18 - 01:11:47:13
Speaker 3
I don't remember what the name was. And there.
01:11:47:13 - 01:11:48:12
Clark
Was a scene where he.
01:11:48:12 - 01:11:52:11
Speaker 3
Was releasing all these animals and it totally inspired me to write this scene.
01:11:52:17 - 01:12:00:08
Clark
Oh, wow, That's full circle. That's hilarious. I know. Oh, my gosh. I know. So it's like, that's insane. Then it's like, you know, who would imagine?
01:12:00:08 - 01:12:33:11
Speaker 3
But it's just this beautiful idea of like, he's got to bring these fish, these only these. It's the only thing in the film that has any color in it, except there's an exception I'll talk about in a second. But, but to carry them to the the river, to set them free and the authority figure this, this ever looming authority figure, which we hadn't talked about, this police officer shoots him dead and then Matt Dillon carries these the fish, the final length to the end sets them free in the river.
01:12:33:21 - 01:13:03:05
Speaker 3
And Matt Dillon's character, Rusty James, has this this moment of color vision when he's after he does that and he's being held briefly by the police before they let him go, it's just, wow, I might get emotional talking about it now, but when that that last scene where where Rusty James finally does make it to the ocean where, he rides his motorcycle and it's this extraordinary shot, I think where he's at the pier, he's at the ocean.
01:13:03:11 - 01:13:20:21
Speaker 3
There's these seagulls everywhere. And he it's it's just I don't know. I don't even know where I'm headed with this. I'm just describing the movie now, which is like the worst thing you want to do. I'm just describing scenes. But. But. Oh, my God. I mean, I don't I just it's it's really extraordinary film. I don't know. That's all I've got left.
01:13:21:03 - 01:13:22:08
Speaker 3
I'm getting carried away.
01:13:22:11 - 01:13:23:10
Clark
No, I mean, again.
01:13:23:19 - 01:13:30:00
Cullen
I think I would just go and it's on, it's on YouTube. It's on the Criterion. I think it's there's a Criterion Releases.
01:13:30:00 - 01:13:49:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. I think it's on it's online this criterion release but, but anyway yeah well with all that being said you know Colin is always man it's a pleasure I like so enjoy talking about these films with you and especially this one and it's a special cool to me to get to share it with somebody who's not seen it before.
01:13:49:15 - 01:14:03:13
Speaker 3
So I'm really happy that it's a film that you enjoyed. And for everybody listening, I hope if you haven't seen it, check it out. It's really worthy of a watch. And until next time, we wish you all a wonderful week and, well, we'll see you soon.
01:14:03:15 - 01:14:11:06
Clark
Yep. I like.