Clark
Hello there and welcome to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. This is episode 14 where we are discussing Herzog's masterclass lesson 15 and with me as always as Mr. Cullen McFater. What's up, buddy?
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Cullen
Hello.
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Clark
How are you doing? I'm doing fantastic, man. It's another beautiful day out here in Orange County, California. What's it like up there near Toronto, sir?
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Cullen
Well, it's dipped down temperature wise. It's gotten a lot colder. It was really warm last week. Like, you know.
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Clark
I think I figured this at this. This will be this will be a new part of the podcast.
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Cullen
Is I like it better.
00:00:48:19 - 00:00:59:15
Clark
Weather forecast not forecast, but it'll be like let's give let's paint a picture we'll let yeah you know we can so people can really feel like they're here with us. Get some warm apple cider.
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Cullen
I got some construction going on outside, which is perfectly appropriate for the sound episode.
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Clark
Absolutely. That's right. So this one is this is covering sound that's less than 15. And I think this one is going to look, they're all important, but I think this one is going to be really, really important topic, especially for people who may be just just just starting out, making their own films. Because I think I mean, Herzog talks about it.
00:01:24:05 - 00:01:45:19
Clark
He starts this lesson right off the bat with, you know, look at the hand. For the first few films he ever made, he couldn't even ever show to an audience because he had unfortunately neglected the sound quality. And I don't know if you've had this experience, but I have some of the first short things. I mean, the sound was just sadly, it was it just broke the film.
00:01:46:05 - 00:02:13:09
Clark
And I think, you know, for us visual thinkers, many of whom that's why we've kind of gone into filmmaking, the first most, you know, foremost thing on your mind is the visual. And until you kind of learn otherwise, there are a few, you know, trial and error mistake runs that actually, you know, people are much, much, much more tolerant of visual artifacting or issues than they are of sound issues.
00:02:13:09 - 00:02:30:17
Cullen
Oh yeah. I mean, I always find it funny too, if you think about the the documentary that we shot together in California, you know, we had the sound on. That is really nice, I think. Yeah. You know, we did a really great job of making sure that was great. And we had a a nice camera too, but we could have shot that on an iPhone, I think.
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Cullen
I think as long as the sound is nice, I think people will buy into it. Whereas, you know, vice versa. Had we just sat an iPhone on the table and been recording audio that way and had really beautiful visuals, people are going to turn that off. I actually when I was I used to do a lot of sound design for theater and remember when I was being trained for that, the the guy who was training me basically said, and this is something that I think carries a lot into film.
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Cullen
People will go into a theater and watch a play in the dark, but they will not go into a theater and watch a play where they can't hear what the actors are saying.
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Clark
Absolutely.
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Cullen
And so I had to think that.
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Clark
That's a good place and, you know, that's a good way to put And of course, I will not be able to reference these studies specifically, sadly. But I, I do recall having read, you know, that there are kind of, you know, scientific studies that show that people are definitely have a higher capacity for visual static or artifacting or, you know, whatever you may want to term, basically poor video quality.
00:03:35:15 - 00:03:55:08
Clark
But we have a very low tolerance to poor sound quality. And you can even see this in, you know, the mediums that have been used to distribute films throughout history. Right. You know, people didn't have much of a problem watching VHS tapes or beta if you happen to, you know, be in those part of the world where people use beta.
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Clark
But sound was like surprisingly decent, especially there were there were tape video formats that actually had digital audio. Yeah. Were very good quality. But so I think.
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Cullen
A really pertinent perhaps comparison is you look at the Michael Mann what's it called Miami Vice.
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Clark
OC Oh now that you know you're talking about TV show or film because.
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Cullen
No film, the film with Jamie Foxx.
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Clark
With Jamie and Colin Farrell. If I do. Yeah.
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Cullen
And so you look at that and that movie was digital and.
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Clark
They because Michael Mann was an early definitely an.
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Cullen
Early adopter early adopter of video and he he pushed the ISO on those digital cameras really high to get noise which is usually people try to avoid. But if you watch that movie, it's noisy as hell. It's it's incredibly noisy. Yes, it's an example. And I think I actually think it really works for the movie, but there's a lot of people that don't like it.
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Clark
He's got a handful of films that are terribly noisy. What was the other film that he made with Tom Cruise? I actually think it's one of his best films. We're talking about Hitman and Collateral. Collateral. Yeah, I think he used a Phantom in that, if I'm not mistaken.
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Cullen
Yeah, For the whole thing. Yeah, for.
00:05:05:03 - 00:05:06:15
Clark
The whole thing. You look at any.
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Cullen
Look at that. That's an example of, you know, intentionally pushing visual technology to a point that it's not necessarily usually used. You're experimenting with it. Whereas then you look at Tenet, which just came out, the Christopher Nolan newest Nolan one, where he tried to experiment with sound by.
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Clark
Which Nolan.
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Cullen
Using the dialog Yeah and everyone's complaining critics audience you know, everyone sort of said like I can't hear anything. And so it's like you can experiment with one. You can't really.
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Clark
It's difficult.
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Cullen
You know, it's difficult to experiment in a way of, of, you know, you can definitely experiment with sound. You know.
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Clark
Legibility is an issue for sure. I, I remember now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to have a pretty vivid, vivid, vivid memory of Interstellar also had significant issues or complaints in theaters. No one had really specifically, you know, he he specifically mixed that film. And isn't this right? And he, you know, had very specific instruction for how it was supposed to be.
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Clark
The sound was supposed to be replicated in theaters. Now, I remember seeing that film and I actually saw it at a screening in Los Angeles. I don't recall the theater now because this has been I don't know that the film is, what, like a 24 hour? It's crazy. But Nolan was there. He did a Q&A. It was one of the first screenings of the film.
00:06:21:00 - 00:06:34:09
Clark
And I remember thinking to myself, I can hardly understand a damn word. Mm hmm. Because there was so much of that ultra low frequency, there was so much base and there was so much dialog. There was underneath sound effects. And and I.
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Cullen
Think that's the thing is that sound is weirdly enough, even though it's not something that you can like physically see, sound is a lot less subjective than visuals.
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Clark
When it comes to being able to tolerate. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's legibility.
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Cullen
You can and you know, there's, there's all these things as well where sound is an instant reaction. You know, a lot of people say if you're cutting to a beat of a song, the visual should be cut a frame before the beat the song because our minds will.
00:07:06:23 - 00:07:08:06
Clark
Process sound, process.
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Cullen
The sound faster. Exactly. So it's almost this there's this different reaction in our brains to sound, which is, of course, we're getting very scientific here. But I think it's really important to understand these elements because I agree, you know, I love experimental. I always said that experimenting with sound is very, very similar to experimenting with visual effects, like practical visual effects you think that you can make and we'll get into that.
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Clark
And we're going to get into.
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Cullen
That, too. But but it's really interesting.
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Clark
And I think it's an area where, you know, it's there's a little bit less I mean, at least for the amateur or kind of like up and coming filmmaker. I think there's so much opportunity there to really explore using sound as another, you know, as a not just, okay, I'm going to get it right, but to really, you know, take that and turn it into something stylistic and artistic and adding to the storytelling.
00:08:01:19 - 00:08:23:08
Cullen
But it's one of the few it's one of the few aspects of film. However, though, that has to be high quality, it does. You know, it's one of these things where it's like there's such a quality barrier on sound that you often, you know, people will forgive. Again, if you can't afford a great camera and you shoot on a can and rebel people will forgive that for the the merit of the film, whereas people are a lot less forgiving if they won't mix or scratchy.
00:08:23:08 - 00:08:25:11
Cullen
And there's wind and you know, all this, there's.
00:08:25:17 - 00:08:52:07
Clark
There's no question. So but but thankfully, thankfully, as Herzog talks about in this lesson, I mean, we do live in an era where not only has camera technology and editing technology increased in capability and decreased in cost, but of course, so has audio quality or audio equipment. Right. And so, I mean, right now I'm recording using a road boom mic that I actually use often when I'm shooting and recording with a task.
00:08:52:08 - 00:09:11:07
Clark
Hamdy 70. It's just a little bitty, tiny external digital four track recorder here. That's SLR input with phantom power. It's extremely easy to use. I don't recall it being it's I've owned it now for, I don't know, probably four years some odd. I don't remember how much it cost, but I remember it being quite cost effective and practical.
00:09:12:08 - 00:09:22:12
Clark
There are you know, thankfully there are tools available now where you can get good quality sound without having to break the bank. So it that's awesome.
00:09:22:15 - 00:09:46:23
Cullen
Yeah, the excuses are running out essentially. But I think it's really I mean, it is really pertinent, I think, to say because you you you know, unlike Herzog's first few movies or even the first few movies that you made or even, you know, even though it's much more recently, the first few movies that I made there was such a lack of availability for for not only being able to do things over, but just being able to edit sound.
00:09:47:11 - 00:10:04:13
Cullen
And nowadays it's so available and there's even new. I think Zoom just released their new recorder that that records in 32 bit audio it's kind of blow me it blew me away because it's you're able to rather than I know yours records at a dual frequency so you get the higher.
00:10:04:22 - 00:10:07:18
Clark
Correct you have got a three decibels cut on the whereas.
00:10:07:18 - 00:10:21:12
Cullen
The the the newest zoom. I can't hear what the the number is but it actually records in 32 bit. So it's much like raw where you actually it's not just two different audio files recording the entire scope of the sound as recorded.
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Clark
So even if it.
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Cullen
Takes, you can bring it down and you can record much greater.
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Clark
Manipulation.
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Cullen
Yeah, it's incredible. It's I saw, well, this video demonstration of it, it's really remarkable.
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Clark
That's fantastic. I'm going to have to look into that as funny. I was actually just on Zoom's product page earlier today, just checking out kind of the latest and greatest in some of those smaller digital recorders. And I did not note that, but I will go back and check that out. I mean, you know, yes, I am much older than you.
00:10:47:01 - 00:11:05:18
Clark
It's true. And so, yeah, I mean, for, you know, so many of the short films that I made of which I can't even count, and most of them are gone. And I think, you know, many of this kind of learn this way, right? You I was lucky enough to have a camcorder in the family. And so I began making films for myself and my friends and my parents.
00:11:06:00 - 00:11:31:23
Clark
When I was young, there was never any way for me to extract audio from visual. And it was I. It was only on camera. Mike and I could never take the audio away from the video and I couldn't add to it and I couldn't subtract from it, not in any real practical sense. So, you know, being able to the technology we have now makes that so within the grasp of almost any filmmaker.
00:11:32:13 - 00:11:37:04
Clark
It really does just I mean, it it just blows go things open, I.
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Cullen
Think because I.
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Clark
Do.
00:11:38:08 - 00:12:00:21
Cullen
Because sound is so much more difficult to grasp than visuals. You know, like as a child, even you can kind of get the feeling of what makes a movie look like a movie. It's the lighting, it's the the really nice cameras, things like that. You can kind of replicate that even if you have, you know, a hI8 video recorder, but sound is so much more difficult because you don't really get to see the result or the process.
00:12:01:16 - 00:12:14:16
Cullen
And I think I mean I didn't learn in depth, you know, how sound worked probably till I went to a summer camp, a film summer camp that was, you know, taught by industry professionals. And that's actually where I teach a lot. Wait a minute now, but wait.
00:12:14:16 - 00:12:21:20
Clark
A minute, Cohen. Cohen, I'm getting an idea for film summer video cam.
00:12:21:20 - 00:12:42:23
Cullen
There you go. Exactly. Oh, believe me, we've made plenty, I'm sure. But I mean, that's what I mean. Is that it? It took it took me getting to a a you know, get getting in touch with an industry professional to learn about what sound was versus it took me watching Jurassic Park and Jaws to learn about, you know, visual storytelling.
00:12:42:23 - 00:12:44:16
Cullen
So let's talk such a difference. Yeah.
00:12:44:20 - 00:13:05:08
Clark
Okay. Let's talk about that some. So it's like, yeah, we've beat this dead horse sound is vital and I think more vital even than the visual, frankly. So let's talk about some ways that, that then if you're just starting out, you can get there, which talk about some ways that we've done this. I mean Herzog you know suggest, okay, hey, you got to learn the basics.
00:13:05:13 - 00:13:35:03
Clark
Now again, with other you know, we've talked about this in other episodes. As a director, you are not going to be the master of every single area of filmmaking, but you certainly need to learn the basics. And, you know, and I, for example, I would readily, readily, readily admit I you know, I would never do my own sound recording on anything other than an exercise that I might be shooting or or some rare exception if I'm doing some industrials or something.
00:13:35:03 - 00:13:58:06
Clark
And it's very simple, I'm there, you know, shooting an interview and, you know, yes, I'll record my own sound there. That's not a big deal. But if I'm shooting a film, I would always have somebody who's whose expertise lies in that area to do that. But you know, what are some ways that you that you found effective then for kind of learning the basics for sound in your experience?
00:13:58:10 - 00:14:13:17
Cullen
I mean, as I said, there's there's software that you can get now that's free. And DaVinci has Fairlight built in, which is an incredible sound mixing software. I would say you should try that. Yeah, just go out. You know, again, things are so available now, too. Even again, when I was a kid, they weren't.
00:14:14:00 - 00:14:16:23
Clark
Now is fairly is very in the free distribution.
00:14:16:23 - 00:14:22:01
Cullen
Yeah it's in the free resolve as far as I know it's in a free resolving. Okay. I've never actually used the free one but, but I'm pretty sure that it is.
00:14:22:03 - 00:14:28:04
Clark
Not to degree I use audition not to get too in the weeds. Here is Fairlight. You have experience with that. It's something you can.
00:14:28:06 - 00:14:46:22
Cullen
Barely scrape fairly because. Because the thing is that you know, again, as you said, not to get too into the weeds, but Fairlight was a separate audio software entirely that DaVinci or Blackmagic bought and put in and then incorporated. Yeah, yeah. So it wasn't like they just kind of built their own and right in there half assed. It was actually quite an established.
00:14:48:02 - 00:15:06:15
Clark
So you can start to learn the software, you know, some of the things to, to even kind of step back even further from, you know, learning kind of technical aspects, but learning from kind of a, you know, starting to understand more about sound and kind of starting to lead a little bit more with your ear as opposed to just your eyes when you're filmmaking.
00:15:06:15 - 00:15:27:21
Clark
I mean, some of the stuff that I've done and I find it quite enjoyable too, so maybe I'm weird. Is that way back when, when DVDs first came out, I was blown away by the fact that I could strip the audio off the DVDs and make an MP three. Yeah, I would often do that. I would strip the audio from my favorite films and then just listen to them.
00:15:28:04 - 00:15:32:06
Cullen
And I remember you mentioning that to me because you mentioned T is a great one to do.
00:15:32:06 - 00:15:56:03
Clark
Yeah, yeah, it, it is T. S is an excellent film to do that with. And so, you know, they're it's, I'm completely focused on the sound and it really is amazing especially with a good set of headphones on. You've got a good DVD audio rip it really allows you to focus on. Of course not just the soundtrack, but the Foley work, the dialog record.
00:15:56:03 - 00:16:03:23
Clark
I mean, it's just amazing how much you can focus on it as opposed to just, you know, watching the flick and you're in your living room. I highly recommend it.
00:16:04:04 - 00:16:13:08
Cullen
And the conversation's another great one to watch, you know? Oh, for sure. Lucas were very, very forward on the sound. They kind of were pioneers of of new sound technology.
00:16:13:12 - 00:16:32:06
Clark
I mean, I would highly recommend, you know, take whatever your favorite film. So everybody, you know, anybody out there, great Take your favorite film and you know, I just did it that way because I wanted to have the audio portable on my phone. I could listen to headphones. Of course you can, you know, just put the audio on some source and just not watch the video.
00:16:32:11 - 00:16:42:07
Clark
If you don't want to go through the trouble of actually extracting the audio track. But I highly recommend, you know, and go do it like an abbey. Just listen to the audio and then go back and just watch the video.
00:16:42:17 - 00:17:03:14
Cullen
Very, very similarly to, I think one thing that taught me so much about sound when I was kind of starting out was and this is something that I use with the students that I teach is make a movie, make a short film centered around sound, and then do one edit of it where everything is entirely t post. All the sound is either Foley that you've.
00:17:03:14 - 00:17:04:14
Clark
Recorded or ADR.
00:17:04:14 - 00:17:25:19
Cullen
Separately or ADR. Okay? And then do another one where you try to use everything that was on set, recorded and on location. And I think that, you know, you're very you're very rarely going to come into a situation where you're making your own thing and you have to choose one or the other. But I think it really, at least to me, gave me both with the one that was all post sound, gave me a chance to really experiment.
00:17:26:03 - 00:17:44:22
Cullen
And I still use that great strategy in in things that I do today. But the one that was in all location sound taught me, you know, what did I miss here? You know, if I only had this to work with, how can I go back and do it better next time? Because yeah, the mic bump something or was the input too low?
00:17:44:22 - 00:18:00:13
Cullen
Was it, you know, all the different stuff that you can really kind of gauge just from doing that? It becomes really fun. And even just, you know, Herzog mentions in his masterclass going outside with a microphone to a forest and spending a night there and recording. But right now you just do it around your house, do it in your backyard.
00:18:00:20 - 00:18:20:22
Cullen
And that's kind of what I mean when I said that I find Foley especially very similar to those old style VFX where it's like you're just experimenting, you're just looking for new ways to create different sounds and which I think is really fun. I use to actually want to be a Foley artist. That was my oh, that's all my desire as a kid to work.
00:18:20:22 - 00:18:21:02
Cullen
Yeah.
00:18:21:09 - 00:19:00:21
Clark
Well, it is it is a fantastic. There are, you know, I've seen documentaries, of course, once again, I can't remember the names, but I've seen some great pieces, whether it's Featurettes or, you know, docs on Foley Artist. And it really is truly an extraordinary art form, frankly. And it's, I think, really underappreciated. It's you know, it's one of those things that if you're if you're just kind of a casual or even, you know, even a little bit more than just a casual, you know, film watcher, if you've not really made a lot of films, you start to realize how interestingly that, you know, very real sounds won't play as real when you know, you've actually
00:19:00:23 - 00:19:15:17
Clark
it's just amazing how sometimes it's actually these these Foley sounds or what an audience expects things to sound like. And if you have a realistic sound, it's not going to play. It's just very interesting sometimes how that how that goes.
00:19:15:17 - 00:19:35:21
Cullen
But and he he does mention that sort of when when he talks about the encounters at the end of the world and he talks about how they you know this in that kind of gets into this whole idea of diegetic versus extra diegetic sound, the sound that you put in. Um, and I mean, that's that's somewhat real. Well, that's it's technically within.
00:19:35:21 - 00:19:37:01
Cullen
Yeah, sure. So let's.
00:19:37:01 - 00:19:41:03
Clark
Explain. Just people who don't. So go ahead. So diegetic is.
00:19:41:16 - 00:19:51:07
Cullen
So diegetic is basically any sound that is within the scene. So you put it pretty well, which was like a a radio playing or you know, sounds.
00:19:51:07 - 00:19:51:12
Clark
In the.
00:19:51:15 - 00:19:52:03
Cullen
Footsteps.
00:19:52:08 - 00:19:59:20
Clark
We see a radio, right. And it's in the room and we hear the music from the radio. Yeah, everything else is extra diegetic.
00:19:59:20 - 00:20:05:05
Cullen
So extra diegetic is sound that you can basically say the, you know, the characters can't hear or that nobody with. And that's.
00:20:05:05 - 00:20:05:16
Clark
A great way to.
00:20:05:16 - 00:20:23:06
Cullen
Hear. So, so soundtrack. But there are also sound effects that can be expedited yet you know like in Saving Private Ryan when that that opening scene on the beach when Tom Hanks kind of gets shell shocked and you've got all those like crazy sounds going on that it sort of sounds like a kettle reaching its kind of climax.
00:20:23:06 - 00:20:38:03
Cullen
And that would be considered extra diegetic, even though it's implying that Tom Hanks, that's kind of what his emotional sensory is. Right. There's no cattle on the beach there. Right. Okay. It's very much it's you. It's interesting.
00:20:38:03 - 00:21:00:17
Clark
I have never I have never kind of correlated that sound to a kettle. But I do remember that that, you know, and I don't know if Saving Private Ryan was the first film to do this, but I felt like I've seen so many films after use that effect of of shock and then, you know, kind of coming back to yeah well you know, so let's talk a little bit about some more of these things.
00:21:00:17 - 00:21:26:08
Clark
I mean, I think, you know, Herzog talks about the importance of paying attention to sound when you're scouting locations. He talks about, you know, this, he tells the story about which is like wild, of course, like every time Herzog tells a story, I'm like, of course they would try that. It's like it talks about they soak in the floorboards of this room in order to be able to shoot there without having the floors creaking so much that you, you know, that they couldn't get on location sound.
00:21:26:08 - 00:21:56:02
Clark
It's hysterical, I don't think. He says that didn't end up working, but but it proves it or it's speaks to a really important point. I can't tell you how many times that, you know, I've been on a shoot many times as an actor and, you know, this location has been scouted and not enough attention was paid to, you know, the fact that, let's say, like it's a it's an apartment or something and you can't control the vasey or, you know, it's right next to a highway or, you know, it's right under an airport.
00:21:56:08 - 00:22:17:03
Clark
Just, you know, it's the neighbors are the walls are paper thin. And you can hear the neighbors right through the wall and you have no way of controlling the neighbors. I mean, certainly these things are important. And Herzog rightly points out that it's vital when you're scouting locations to have these things in mind because it can really make or break a shoot.
00:22:17:15 - 00:22:18:07
Clark
There's no question.
00:22:18:07 - 00:22:28:13
Cullen
Especially with things like documentary, sometimes you may not even get to scout. You know, we for sure, again wish you shooting that documentary in L.A. We shot in that that school.
00:22:28:19 - 00:22:29:14
Clark
The studio, Right.
00:22:29:14 - 00:22:46:21
Cullen
The studios. Technically, the studio, Yeah. And it had a streetcar going down below that kind of honked every few minutes. And I remember I do remember we actually I remember that one of the the interview as well with the air conditioning. And then right before we started, we both sort of went, oh, air conditioning, you know, it's like this this really quick thing.
00:22:46:21 - 00:23:02:17
Cullen
But but again, it's things like that that you immediately kind of you can't hesitate on it like we couldn't have possibly gone on. Maybe we should do this or that. All we have to do is kind of embrace it and then we can go, Well, maybe, you know, if it's so low, maybe we actually put in city sound effects behind that.
00:23:02:17 - 00:23:06:07
Cullen
So it sounds intentional. Sure. Or said that's out with great example.
00:23:06:07 - 00:23:06:19
Clark
I think.
00:23:06:19 - 00:23:07:12
Cullen
Later you can.
00:23:08:04 - 00:23:08:16
Clark
Just get.
00:23:08:19 - 00:23:09:05
Cullen
Better with.
00:23:09:05 - 00:23:24:02
Clark
It and you know this sparks to mind an idea to you know, when when I'm scouting a location for sound, I'm trying to ascertain what the sound situation is. I used a mic that I'm going to be using and my headset.
00:23:24:14 - 00:23:26:01
Cullen
That's yeah, I walk around with it.
00:23:26:03 - 00:23:58:11
Clark
Yeah. Just because it's it's amazing how different that experience is going to be than if you're just walking around with your unaided ears. It will be a significantly different experience. So I just I highly recommend, you know, if when you really want to get a sense of what something sounds like, take one of your primary microphones, run it through your amp, your recorder, and use the headset that, you know, use a good quality headset and I think it'll give you a much more accurate representation of what's going to actually end up in your recording as opposed to just your naked ears.
00:23:59:06 - 00:23:59:19
Cullen
Exactly.
00:24:00:12 - 00:24:23:11
Clark
So you talked about so we're talking about, you know, all different kinds of stuff, diegetic versus extra diegetic, talking about using sound as an effect. Let's also talk a little bit about ADR and location sound. Now, this is not something that Herzog speaks to directly or much. I mean, he he talks about the importance of getting on location sound.
00:24:23:16 - 00:24:34:17
Clark
But of course, ADR is a thing. It exists, and it's a tool that can be profoundly helpful, but may have its own pros and cons. So let's talk about that now.
00:24:34:17 - 00:25:12:03
Cullen
Yeah, I mean, I think that there's kind of a stigma about there's this really bad line, you know, let's fix it in post or whatever that that would get you thrown off any set. But I do think that people often think that it's one or the other. And I think that the the best and the most efficient sets in the sense that usually get the best results that I've seen and actually worked on personally have been the ones that do very much marry those two and, you know, don't stress about if the location sounds not perfect because there are very many ways to you know, yeah, slap myself on the wrist, but there are many
00:25:12:03 - 00:25:15:14
Cullen
ways to fix it. Exactly. And the lack of a better term.
00:25:15:15 - 00:25:43:08
Clark
I will take a step back here. Now, this is always I'm not going to even lie. I had to look this up. I always forget this because the the name has kind of gotten a little bit stretched from its you know, it's used to just mean any after the fact audio recording for dialog. But ADR stands for automated dialog replacement and most of us as as small independent filmmakers.
00:25:43:08 - 00:26:11:12
Clark
This isn't going to be automated in any real way. You're going to have to actually do this kind of tediously unless you've got some budget to go into a studio that does this. But but that just means that you, for whatever reason, you are recording dialog to dub in over the video you've recorded and replace whatever audio or dialog was recorded there on location, just in case there was any question about that.
00:26:11:17 - 00:26:22:00
Clark
And so you're saying you think this is a tool, It's in the toolbox. A lot of people flip out, you know, don't, don't, don't use it, but that it actually can be really helpful.
00:26:22:13 - 00:26:33:02
Cullen
Oh, yeah, I've used it many times. I try not to if I can get great sound on location first. Yeah, very much prefer that. But I think that if it's done well, people can't notice. And that's, that's the goal.
00:26:33:02 - 00:27:02:12
Clark
Right. That's the goal. I think it's you know it's certainly so yeah. You said, you know, look I try to do everything I can to not have to ADR and that's absolutely you know, my preference is certainly to get the performance live right there in the moment. It's probably one of the most challenging things to have to do is to try to replicate the the exact same level and tone of the performance in a booth.
00:27:03:07 - 00:27:22:09
Clark
You're you know, the actor is removed from the scene. They're you know, they're they're usually just by themselves. The other they're not going to be acting against other people. They're going to have to be watching a replay of their performance to match their, you know, timing of their original delivery so that the lips sync up with the sound.
00:27:22:12 - 00:27:22:15
Clark
Yeah.
00:27:22:18 - 00:27:23:12
Cullen
It's so different.
00:27:23:12 - 00:27:46:22
Clark
Yeah, it's very, very, very difficult. So ideally, you're not having to do much of that. But I mean, it really can save your butt and sometimes it is just frankly necessary. So definitely a valuable tool. It's challenging to do, I think, on your own without the proper, proper technical tools to do it easily. But it can't be done.
00:27:47:01 - 00:27:49:12
Clark
Be done. It can definitely, definitely be done.
00:27:49:12 - 00:28:01:01
Cullen
Use a closet. That'll be my piece of advice. If you don't have a place to record, just just literally, you know, closets are so great because they're so insulated with sound. Yeah. And because you've got coats and whatever hanging up just so.
00:28:01:07 - 00:28:03:07
Clark
The Canadians have coats and everything.
00:28:03:08 - 00:28:09:20
Cullen
That's a good point. Yeah, well, stick some, you know, some parkas in there, you know. But no, we just have.
00:28:09:20 - 00:28:11:10
Clark
Shorts and t shirts down here, man.
00:28:11:21 - 00:28:36:12
Cullen
Yeah. And that's, that's what I will say though, that it is much more it's kind of ironic because again, sound has such a high barrier for quality that people will accept. But I will also say it is easier to if you know what you're doing, it is easier to replicate the sound quality of a blockbuster motion picture than it is to replicate the visual quality of a blockbuster.
00:28:37:01 - 00:28:56:02
Cullen
And that's kind of where it sounds counterintuitive because it's like, Well, if people think that the quality of sound matters way more, how could that be? But if you do a good job on sound, you can get perfect sound with with with low end equipment, not low low. And of course, it depends. There's a barrier in terms of like if the equipment actually just sucks.
00:28:56:07 - 00:29:20:00
Cullen
But with consumer grade equipment that that is high quality you can easily get. Not easily. I keep saying easily, but with with the skill, put it in the time put in you can get the quality to to match that of something that you would see as a big studio film. Yeah. Whereas with visuals that can be, you know, ten times more difficult to actually match that kind of element if you are trying to get it to look like it's a big budget or whatever.
00:29:20:05 - 00:29:43:02
Clark
Right? Well, you know, I certainly I like I said, I'm not an expert, you know, And the only mastering that I've really done was stereo. I've never I don't have experience with surround sound. 5.1, 7.1 ultra low end frequencies. I you know, there are so many I mean, it really I'll just frankly admit that I am not even remotely an expert, but I do understand the importance of it.
00:29:43:02 - 00:30:12:19
Clark
And certainly you've got to carve out budget for that and and find somebody who has an expertise in it. I am not. But it's it's it's fascinating to me. I have on a feature film, a horror film that I was a part of a while back. It was brought in to help assist the interactions between the the guy or the team that was mastering everything, doing the sound design and providing feedback.
00:30:12:19 - 00:30:35:00
Clark
And it was a really eye opening experience. It's not stuff that, you know, at that high of a level. It's not something that I would have ever done myself. I have great respect for people who are experts in that, but really just that the level of, you know, what you can do with sound design and you had spoken to this to where you're talking about sound is in effects.
00:30:35:06 - 00:30:45:18
Clark
And we've talked I mean, you've got location, sound, ADR. We talked a little bit about Foley. It's just it's it's really a cool, cool place to play. And as a filmmaker.
00:30:46:12 - 00:30:47:02
Cullen
Absolutely.
00:30:47:03 - 00:31:06:08
Clark
And, you know, and we haven't even talked to much about this, which is, you know, stylistically using sound. Herzog in this lesson, talks about blending and distorting sounds for stylization. And, you know, here for the past 30 minutes, we've been talking about, you know, just kind of recording sound properly.
00:31:06:22 - 00:31:08:13
Cullen
We've heard the technicalities in.
00:31:08:13 - 00:31:28:14
Clark
Right? We haven't even touched base on using sound artistically. Stylistically. You know, Herzog talks about he he mentions a couple examples from his film, Signs of Life, where he has the distorted applause with I don't even know how to describe this. What kind of what would how would you call it when a wire like twangs? Almost.
00:31:28:14 - 00:31:30:10
Cullen
Yeah, it's like a what would.
00:31:30:10 - 00:31:30:21
Clark
You call it?
00:31:31:10 - 00:31:32:05
Cullen
I don't even know.
00:31:32:08 - 00:32:09:18
Clark
I don't even know. But you get the. It's like a guitar string. Imagine, you know, you have these high power, like high tension lines. They kind of have this like we. But I. That was horrible. I can't believe I just did that. It just we. But I think people get the idea but you know how he he combined these sounds with the the that you know the scene of the kind of famous scene of the sea of windmills and then he mentions another film encounters at the end of the world where he has the scientist, this poor scientist who's, you know, half of her face froze off, lays down on the ice and he uses
00:32:09:18 - 00:32:14:07
Clark
this wild I think he actually uses the term like Pink Floyd esque or something to.
00:32:14:16 - 00:32:17:23
Cullen
Yeah, that's very much like the dark side of the moon. Yeah.
00:32:17:23 - 00:32:24:02
Clark
Yeah. And I don't remember it personally being too much like Pink Floyd, but I feel, you know, I get it, I get it.
00:32:24:09 - 00:32:26:10
Cullen
But maybe it's just a word for crazy.
00:32:26:20 - 00:32:51:05
Clark
Weird or. Yeah, but. Or psychedelic or something. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I love Floyd and Dark Side of the Moon is, I think, one of the greatest rock albums to ever have been recorded. But but yeah, so he mentions those examples and I'm I know there are many more in his filmography now. This is definitely an area that I have not explored any anywhere near to the level that I've explored some other aspects of filmmaking.
00:32:51:05 - 00:33:14:07
Clark
So I, you know, this was kind of an inspiration to me and just a reminder of, you know, hey, there's this whole other area here where it's not just about recording accurately at a high level of competence, of, you know, of cleanliness and resolution. But there's just this whole world of style of of design available to you. There's so many things.
00:33:14:08 - 00:33:35:08
Clark
I mean, you know, it just you can translate. I mean, we talk about often the just the nuance and subtlety of mise en scene manipulation that you can use this just all these layers of of storytelling density, visual aid. We talk about how you can manipulate these things to elicit, you know, profound emotional response. And like a sound is probably even more so.
00:33:35:08 - 00:33:56:13
Clark
I mean, you talked about how it's almost a more primal, right? You never stop listening when you sleep. You've stopped watching, but you never stop hearing. It's such a primal. I can't It's like the amount of time like you would said, the amount of time it takes for sound to go from your ear to your brain is, I think, considerably less than it takes to get from your eye to your brain.
00:33:56:18 - 00:34:02:03
Clark
Yeah, it's even though we're very visual creatures, this is such a primal emotionally. Yeah.
00:34:02:03 - 00:34:07:20
Cullen
Because the visuals are more complex or sound is usually very, very simple, even if it is, you know, a created.
00:34:07:20 - 00:34:14:08
Clark
Conscious and it's evolutionary, right? It's like you're asleep on the plains of Africa and you know, you hear some horror lion.
00:34:14:09 - 00:34:14:15
Cullen
Yeah.
00:34:14:18 - 00:34:33:06
Clark
I mean, it's like, boom. I said, I'm never going to pretend to be an evolutionary science or scientist or whatever you would call that. But, but yeah, I and so there's just it's just awesome to me, you know, again, to be reminded for myself that, hey, there's this whole other world here.
00:34:33:21 - 00:34:59:01
Cullen
And it's funny cause I actually, again, like I said, this was kind of where a lot of my interest used to lie and still does Just less career orange hat. But, you know, back when I was younger, I really, really wanted to do sound experimentation and Foley and all that design. Yeah. For a living. And I think that, you know, it can be as simple as just it's just like everything in film is about.
00:34:59:02 - 00:35:21:01
Cullen
A lot of it's about manipulation. And I think that, you know, an example being that the Hitchcock short that I just made the there's a moment where there's a character who's entering a house to kill another character and they're walking up the stairs in the character. Their main character's waiting at the top of the stairs and it's dark and you can't see the person, but you can hear them coming up the stairs.
00:35:21:13 - 00:35:39:20
Cullen
And there's, I think, like steps on the staircase. And those ten steps were done instantly on the day, you know, just take that long, climb, ten steps. But I basically extended it to like 20 steps. I'm just like creaking coming up the stairs. So and I think that again, that this is where it's like it doesn't have to be realistic.
00:35:40:17 - 00:36:04:22
Cullen
You can use it. And same with the know. There's the famous scene in The Godfather when Michael shoots the police captain and the Mafioso in the Little cafe and in that there's this this sound of the subway going up above the restaurant. And the subway sound cuts to silence. As soon as Michael pulls the trigger, you still hear the other sounds, you still hear footsteps and stuff like that.
00:36:04:22 - 00:36:29:00
Cullen
But it's utilizing again, that's kind of where this diegetic versus extra diegetic comes in, where it's you're utilizing diegetic sound in an extra diegetic fashion to emphasize. And it doesn't have to be. Again, you can very rarely are sound effects in film, even if they're supposed to replicate real life, very rarely are they exactly replicating real life. They're usually exaggerated in some way.
00:36:29:01 - 00:36:59:13
Clark
Exactly. And that's where I was kind of saying that, you know, if you just use the literal sound of what was happening, it it's just funny because we've kind of all inherited this grammar of film, which also includes Foley work and the sound effects. It just it doesn't it doesn't seem, quote unquote, you know, even real, even if you're going for a realistic effect, a much less a stylized effect, it'll come off so flat some of these things get exaggerated to kind of ridiculousness.
00:36:59:13 - 00:37:05:03
Clark
Like sometimes it's hysterical to think of like, you know, the sounds of like a fist hitting somebody's face.
00:37:05:20 - 00:37:14:13
Cullen
Is actually a baseball bat, hitting a leather jacket or something. I mean, I've done that. I had a horror movie where someone had to be being gouged by this demon. And we.
00:37:14:19 - 00:37:17:00
Clark
Covered this such a violent, such.
00:37:17:00 - 00:37:18:04
Cullen
Violence. Sorry about.
00:37:18:14 - 00:37:18:17
Clark
That.
00:37:18:19 - 00:37:46:11
Cullen
Just all in. But but we used a watermelon. We were like scraping out a watermelon had and even, you know, the sound of the monster was like my dog's breathing slowed down to like, you know, 50% or 20% or something like that. So we just again, it and that's one of the that's kind of where I describe it as being very similar to visual effects, old style, old style visual effects where it's like you can go out and record your dog, you know, drinking water and slow it down to 5% and see how that sounds.
00:37:46:11 - 00:37:52:19
Cullen
Then go, Oh no, that's not right. And then go back out and get something else. Play it back, play around with it. So, you know, this reminds me.
00:37:52:19 - 00:38:22:22
Clark
Yeah, this reminds me. I mean, you know, gosh, I really hope my memory serves here because it has been a very long time. But if I you know, of course, it's it's like pretty common that you'll find commentary tracks will have that director obviously often producers certainly often you know lead actors. So it's very rare that you get a commentary track where you've got somebody who is, you know, one of the heads of the sound department, whether they were, you know, overall kind of sound design or whatever it might have been, it's very rare.
00:38:23:03 - 00:38:32:21
Clark
But if I'm not mistaken, isn't that don't the original Star Wars films, at least like The New Hope? Isn't there a commentary track from the sound designer.
00:38:32:21 - 00:38:38:13
Cullen
From Ben Burtt? There probably is. I wouldn't be surprised because Ben Burtt was definitely one of the and again, pioneers.
00:38:38:13 - 00:38:56:17
Clark
And like I said, it's been a while. It's been a while. But I mean, I remember being blown away by the detail where he described, you know, the blending of different sounds, how he would go out and and record all of these sounds and blend them together to make everything from, you know, the creature. And I'm pretty sure Ben's lights to.
00:38:56:18 - 00:39:01:01
Cullen
Ajax as well so sure he do the sound pretty soon.
00:39:01:06 - 00:39:25:09
Clark
And so anyway I was just going to say would totally recommend seeking those out because they, they really are extraordinary. It's a little, you know, a couple of hour long film schools here that are specific to sound and should be readily available, I would imagine. But yeah, yeah. It's just it really is. It's I kind of get excited again because it's an area that I have not explored anywhere as much as I could.
00:39:25:09 - 00:39:52:01
Clark
And so, you know, trying to push myself to utilize that more in my upcoming projects to really be more conscientious from the very beginning, pre-production, you know, it's always so worried about the script and I'm always so worried about the cast and all these other things. And of course you should be. But you know, as much as I can sit here and say it sounded so vital, I mean, it still does fall lower than it probably should on my list of priorities.
00:39:52:01 - 00:39:53:16
Clark
So, I mean.
00:39:54:02 - 00:40:23:16
Cullen
That's the thing is it's especially on set, you know, as the first thing. And it's really unfortunate, but it's the first thing to kind of go out the window when things are running, you know, behind schedule. And which is ironic because it it's arguably the key thing that you need to kind of on top of. Yeah. But at the same time, I will say in this again, this takes a huge amount of understanding and it should never be a light decision.
00:40:24:07 - 00:40:47:18
Cullen
But there also is the arguments. That sound is in a way one of the easier elements to do over now, whereas if there is, you know, a boom in the shot or something goes wrong visually, visual effects are so expensive. Whereas, you know, retaking sound for Foley or whatever is is a fraction of that cost of visual effects or painting things.
00:40:47:18 - 00:40:54:18
Clark
Out can be can be I do on a project that I was a part of though a while. I mean we had to ADR so much of it that just.
00:40:54:18 - 00:40:55:12
Cullen
Became so exposed.
00:40:56:00 - 00:41:19:07
Clark
That it actually ended up being almost prohibited the film from, you know, any kind of release on the Thankfully, it was we overcame the challenge and I was a very small piece of that film. And I think it's a really killer little horror film. And it came quite nice. But it was I mean, it was it took a very long period of time and I think considerable money to repair this issue.
00:41:19:07 - 00:41:41:09
Clark
So but I think also to you know, that was we use that as an opportunity as well to modify performance, modify some dialog. So there was a little bit of, I would say, quote unquote, editing that was done, which is of course, something else you can do with ADR, right? I mean, you can literally change the script, you can modify performances if, you know, hopefully you're not having to do that.
00:41:42:01 - 00:42:02:07
Clark
Certainly you shouldn't be shooting thinking you're going to do that a little later. But like, you know, but hey, things happen and it is a tool that's available to you. I just you know, this is I think we've covered just about everything. Yeah. In that lesson. But I just want to point out one thing. I've got this in my notes and doesn't have anything to do with sound, but I just love it.
00:42:03:02 - 00:42:26:11
Clark
Do you remember back Few? I forget now. It's a few lessons ago. We're talking about cameras and we're talking about how Herzog hates to have a zoom, to actually use a zoom and, you know, as a shot where we literally see the zoom. He's like, Hey, I love zoom lenses because I can recompose on the fly. And they're especially fantastic for documentary filmmaking, but I don't ever want to show a zoom.
00:42:26:18 - 00:42:40:19
Clark
I'm 99% sure if my memory is serving me that in Encounters at the End of the World, the example he gives for blending and distorting sounds for stylization, there is in fact a zoom shot there.
00:42:40:20 - 00:42:47:00
Cullen
Yeah, there's that there. There's a few. There actually are a few things that I could point out that Herzog does use as I just love a camera.
00:42:47:03 - 00:43:09:18
Clark
In by me pointing this out is absolutely not in any way to like say, oh, you know, he contradicts himself. So everything he says is it's all wrong garbage. To me, it's actually super endearing. I love the fact that he kind of contradicts himself. And I think it just goes to show that that there are just so many avenues of application for.
00:43:09:18 - 00:43:18:11
Clark
Yeah, in filmmaking and in all of these areas, it's just there's just such a such a wonderful sandbox for exploration. So. Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff.
00:43:18:19 - 00:43:19:16
Cullen
Yeah. Excellent.
00:43:19:16 - 00:43:34:04
Clark
Well, Cullen, I think we've come to the end of another episode. Everybody out there in Podcast Listening Land, I want to thank you so much for hanging out with us. I hope you've enjoyed this, this episode. I know that I have. Cullen Thank you so much.
00:43:34:16 - 00:43:35:04
Cullen
Thank you.
00:43:35:08 - 00:43:50:11
Clark
And until next time. Oh, wait. But before that. Before I say until next time, I have to say let's let's give a little sneak peek of what next time is going to be. So next episode, we're going to be talking about lesson 16, which is an extension of sound music.
00:43:50:20 - 00:43:55:07
Cullen
Mm hmm. Yeah. Which is super, super pertinent to at least what I do, so.
00:43:56:00 - 00:44:10:22
Clark
Well, fantastic. We can't. I can't wait to discuss it. This is going to be another exciting one. All right, well, until then, everybody, take care.