Clark
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Soldiers, a cinema podcast. Once again, I'm Clark Coffey and with me as always, is Cullen McFater.
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Cullen
There we go.
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Clark
Nice jinx. Abracadabra. You are only a Coke man. Welcome, everybody. It's good to have you back. We're happy to be here. This is which is like mind blowing to me. I can't believe we're already at episode 16. Whoa. Yeah, I know. It's wild, huh? Time flies when you're having fun. This is. We'll be covering lesson 17 of Herzog's Masterclass at Masterclass Dotcom, which we've both taken, by the way, just a little like free.
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Clark
You know, Props for Masterclass. We both obviously.
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Cullen
How we met.
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Clark
Enjoyed that, enjoyed that whole experience because, well, here we are years later doing a podcast. It's kind of based around it, at least here in the beginning. But this lesson 17 covers editing, which I think is, I mean, if there were ever something that were was fundamental right to an art, to a medium, editing is as fundamental as you could possibly get to filmmaking, right?
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Clark
And then without editing, just kind of what makes it filmmaking almost, I think, you know. Yes. And so this I'm I'm excited to go over this lesson. I think Herzog brings up some really interesting points. And right off the bat, let's just jump into it right off the bat, Herzog talks about and this is interesting, right, because there are some distinctions that we can make here.
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Clark
He talks about being careful that you don't force your intention. Mm hmm. In the edit of the film. Right. So he talks very much about kind of like that, a film that this footage, rather, is going to kind of seem to want to go in certain directions, perhaps. Right. It's almost like it's going to have a will of its own.
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Cullen
Yeah. It's like divorcing yourself from that.
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Clark
Or being open to it. Right.
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Cullen
And divorcing yourself from the footage in terms of like your own will and and all that.
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Clark
Right, Right. That's what he talks about. So instead of imposing your will with that rigidity, he talks about really being open, allowing yourself to kind of intuitive, like get a sense for where does the footage want to go, what is the how does the film want to kind of congeal? And it's interesting because of course, you know, he he he also talks very much about shooting with with extreme focus and intent.
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Clark
Right. I mean, if anybody was ever against being a fly on the wall, kind of setting up a camera and just letting things happen, I would I would say Herzog, you know, is has spoken out most strongly against this approach. Yes. Practically any other No. One interest in it right out of any documentary filmmaker I can think of.
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Clark
So it's not that you are just, you know, sitting a camera down on some stakes and walking away and just letting it run for 30 hours, and then you say, Hey, let's see what we got. I mean, he's very much about making things happen and and manipulation and shooting with, you know, opinion and perspective. But I think he was talking about here is, okay, well, once you get all that footage and you're in the editing room, don't force a round peg into a square hole.
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Clark
You know.
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Cullen
What's this idea for him that it's like pretend that you are a different person than who shot the footage? Well, you know, like this idea of stumbling across footage and just, you know, finding it and it's like, you know, get into the mindset that you weren't the person that shot it, that if you were to just edit this footage that you just came across, you know, how would you do it?
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Cullen
And kind of, you know, think like, you know, obviously think like an editor in this instance. But kind of again, try to, you know, pretend that you are not the person who actually captured this footage and that you're you're now stumbling across it and you're finding the best moments and finding the bits to stick out and to emphasize.
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Cullen
And you know, how that rhythm comes out to is like. And I think everyone who has edited their own stuff and shot their own stuff has experienced this where it's, you know, whether it is the case of, you know, when you're on set and things seem to be going horribly and then you sit down in the editing room and you go, Wow, this is actually pretty good, or even just on the basis of you might think on set that you're going to edit it a certain way or that something is going to happen in a particular way and it's going to cut together like this.
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Cullen
And then you get to the edit and you go, Actually, it's going to be completely different. That doesn't even work.
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Clark
Yeah, I think you, you know, Herzog mentioned it and you're calling attached to it this idea or kind of this way of thinking of, you know, when you step into the editing room, try to put yourself in a mind frame of, yeah, like I, you know, I don't even know where this footage came from. I mean, it's sort of, you know, kind of, you know, playing a little trick on yourself, so to speak.
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Clark
But it's just kind of a way of saying, you know, really being open to the the possibilities that exist with the footage you actually have. And you're right. I mean, I think, you know, in my experience, right, I've generally speaking, when I go in and I'm shooting a film, I kind of can see the edited film in my mind.
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Clark
Right now I have this. You're probably the same way, right? I think many people are probably where I kind of have this pre this very strongly preconceived notion. I mean, actually, as I'm writing it, you know, this starts to develop for me. It's I kind of think visually. I think obviously many filmmakers do. It's why you're drawn to the medium.
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Clark
And so sometimes it's, you know, you can kind of really restrict yourself, right? If you're so rigidly right, if you're so rigidly holding on to this vision that you've had, you know, since you wrote it and the footage may not lend itself to exactly that. And actually, you know, it may lend itself to something much better than you ever than you ever pre-conceived, you know, these wonderful, beautiful accidents happen, whether they're in performances, you know, of your actors or whatever, you know, whatever may kind of whatever happened on set are on location.
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Clark
There could be some really beautiful accidents.
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Cullen
So it's very much with with narrative. But I almost want to say, too, especially with documentary, you know, I wrote the documentary I just did about home video and all that.
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Clark
Mm hmm.
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Cullen
Was written in a very particular way. I had a it wasn't really a screenplay, but I had, you know, the chunks laid out as to where the story went. And probably, you know, halfway through the editing process, I showed it around to a few people and got feedback. And that feedback wound up completely changing the structure that, you know, parts that were supposed to be at the end of the movie wound up at the beginning.
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Cullen
And it just it made it way better. It kind of wrapped the whole thing up in a nice bow as opposed to just what it was before, which was kind of more of a traditionally told story, which I thought was really interesting.
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Clark
Now, so in this instance, let me just double check, make sure I understand. So you're saying that you got feedback, you had you presented this to some other people as that what what happened?
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Cullen
Yeah, I think I think I had I had it in my mind as to what I want it to be. And then the feedback wound up making it. So you.
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Clark
Did that. You so you've gone ahead and you made a cut, is that what? And that. Okay. Yeah, well, you know, so that we can bring this up to. Herzog talks about this aspect of editing a little bit later in the lesson but it's sure we it's a good place to bring this up about. Okay. Well you've gone through the process.
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Clark
You've got an edit or you've got a cut, rather. How do you address getting feedback from people and.
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Cullen
First and not working with yes men and stuff like that too.
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Clark
Write I mean, Well, you know, couple of things. I mean, Herzog talks about first of all, he doesn't edit films by himself. I think a lot of people just starting out often times do find themselves editing their own films in entirety, especially if they're short films.
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Cullen
And budget wise, too, is of course, it makes sense often to spend the money to get another editor, right?
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Clark
Right. Which I think speaks even more to, you know, really trying to work to keep yourself open minded. Yeah, Yeah. Because you're not going to have this, you know, this other layer of interpretation or objectivity, if you will, if you don't have another editor in there. But I think it's it's a great idea to to start, you know, hopefully you can find some people who are maybe at the same level as you if you're just starting out who are willing to work for credit or payment or something and start to work with an editor, I think it's a you know, it's a vital skill to have.
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Clark
Obviously, as you progress through your career, it's unlikely that you're going to be the one actually sitting at the computer making the edits. You'll be working with an editor. And that that objectivity is really important to bring to the table, but it's also important to get back to what you were just talking about with your project. Okay. Well, you know, it's and this is boy, I mean, this is like how to deal with feedback and get the most out of it without being overwhelmed by it.
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Clark
I mean, I think everybody who's ever created anything has found this to be really challenging. Yes, I know I have like but but some of the things Herzog suggest, I mean, he talks about, you know, showing it to people who he knows aren't going to kiss his butt. Right.
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Cullen
That's obviously his older brother, which is a funny little story. That is.
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Clark
Which is.
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Cullen
The brother, the boss of the family, which I can't imagine somebody bossing Herzog around.
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Clark
But I know I would love to see that. I would love to see that. But but that's important because, I mean, I know that, you know, it's it's sometimes is a big pull for me where I'm like, I want to show my work to people who I kind of know are going to tell me nice things about it because.
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Cullen
There's a pull to do that. Right. Sure. Confirmation bias, right?
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Clark
Yeah, exactly. It's like, you know, please tell me something nice. You know, I'm probably feeling fragile. I work sensitive. It's like, Mom, come on, this is great. Right? But. But no, you know, I think we all kind of have a little bit of a pull to do that, so it's important to remember. Okay, wait, hold on. Okay. You know, Yes, it's like strokes, the ego to get some nice feedback, but it's not going to make your film any better.
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Clark
So to actually show it to some people who you can trust to really be honest, I think is key. And Herzog also talks about and I have not done this for a film that I've directed yet, but I was a producer for a horror film where we did this and have it have large audiences. Herzog talks about the importance of doing this for comedy.
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Clark
Yes. Yeah. And and I think, you know, because it's and I agree.
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Cullen
Being a part of one of those, too.
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Clark
You know, you've been a focus group audience as an audience. So, yeah, it's that one, you know, that's a really interesting science, you know, putting a focus group together, asking questions that are going to elicit feedback that's usable, that's actionable, is really, really tough. And that's outside.
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Cullen
Sometimes. And sometimes it can be really corporatized and it can be very, you know, you you turn it into especially with these bigger studios, you hear these kind of horror stories about like focus audiences and test audiences becoming just literally marketing pitches, right? And then it's like, yeah, how can we how, how, how willing would you be to buy an action figure based off.
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Clark
Of it's well, you know.
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Cullen
It's ridiculous stuff.
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Clark
Like certainly yeah certainly you know if you're talking about a marvel movie I mean those things are likely focus group to death and I think most most major studio feature films, large budget films are focus grouped death. And then, you know, you kind of have a film that's made by comedy. And Herzog actually talks about that, too. Yeah.
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Clark
About the pitfalls of of trying to make a movie that's for every possible audience out there. And of course, Marvel films or action films are that that's exactly what they're trying to do right there. The domestic box office is no longer sufficient. The global box office is vital and stuff like that.
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Cullen
Sorry.
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Clark
Go ahead. No, I was just going to say. And so they've got a they've got to make a movie that plays to every single audience in the world, young, male, female, you know, whether you're in Japan or China or Turkey or the United States or Canada or Algeria.
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Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
Right.
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Cullen
I also I want to say, though, that it's the irony. I've always thought about that. And that's a very you know, it's not honestly the most recent phenomenon. It's been going on for two, maybe even three decades now on a mass scale. But what I do want to say that's interesting about that is that I find the movies that we look at as classics, those movies that came out in the fifties and sixties, seventies and eighties that we really are like, you know, these are the classics, Hollywood movies.
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Clark
Like Weekend at Bernie's.
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Cullen
Yeah, we can.
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Clark
Never say.
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Cullen
Well, but like, even just like you think of, like the original Star Wars films, I do Love Weekend at Bernie's. It's no joking, man.
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Clark
I do, too.
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Cullen
But but, but I mean, any of these movies that that aliens whatever you know, big blockbuster movie you can think of that came out in that era. Yeah. That they were successful not because they were aiming to reach the widest possible audience. They were successful because they were goal oriented in terms of what they wanted to do with the movie and what the story they wanted to tell was, and that the audience followed.
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Cullen
And it's almost this kind of paradox, which is like if you chase the audience, you're not going to get the audience, or at least, you know, there's no denying that Marvel movies are successful. But in 20, 30 years, will anybody remember specific plot points or lines? I, I don't really think so. I don't I, you know, I think that there's going to be people that are always super fans of them, but I don't think that they will have the cultural impact of, you know, the these groundbreaking movies that came out in the decades before.
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Cullen
Because of that. I think that that's kind of the irony and that's kind of the paradox of it, is because you know what that's called.
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Clark
So there's a name for that.
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Cullen
Oh, really? Okay, there is.
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Clark
Yeah. Are couple names. This is so it's actually funny that you mentioned this. We can like, we'll take a little digression into the world of philosophy for just a moment, but I don't know if you're so this, this obviously I think most of us have experienced this kind of the seemingly like existence of these paradoxical effects in life with effort and result.
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Clark
It's been I think people have talked about this in Buddhism and Zen for a long time. Alan Watts, a countercultural philosopher, he was British, called this the law of reverse effort, or the backwards law, which is basically says that if you push for something very strongly, you will actually decrease your likelihood of obtaining it. And then and I agree to a great extent, actually, that if you put all of your energy into trying to, you know, to creating a film that's going to work for every possible audience, it won't work very well for any.
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Clark
Yeah. And I would even go further and say, actually, if you you know, if you're trying to do work that you feel will be accepted by an audience and that's your primary focus, it's likely not going to be a very good film. It's not going to come from within you. It's not going to be an authentic voice. It's going to be premeditated and cynical and and striving.
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Clark
And that doesn't make for very interesting film in my humble opinion. But I really appreciate you bringing that up.
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Cullen
And I think that there's actually a really great example of it. And at the avoidance of becoming a pop culture podcast, because that's not what we are.
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Clark
Right.
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Cullen
Putting my fist down. But okay, but I sound like Nixon now. But, but I do want to say that you're impersonations. But there's a there's an interesting example of that that's kind of been talked about to death. But but just a really quick digression is the the episode, I guess it was eight the eight Star Wars movie of this new.
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Clark
Oh my gosh.
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Cullen
Which is the eighth one was The Last Jedi, which was the controversial fan, you know, the one that fans didn't like. The critics liked it. Sure. I liked I thought it was I thought it was decent because I thought it was different as okay, what I feel.
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Clark
Like I had no idea with this film is that you're talking about I don't know which.
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Cullen
That's okay. I don't blame you, but that's okay. But I do. I there is an interesting relation to too, what we're talking about here, which is that the so the the eighth movie came out, which was directed by Ryan Johnson, who did, you know, Looper and Brick and just most recently Knives out were good which I think he's I think that he's he's really an interesting director He's got a very interesting voice.
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Cullen
Very unique voice. And so he did the eight Star Wars movie and it took the series in a direction that a lot of fans were, you know, unhappy with because they were like, where's this? Where's that? You know, that's not supposed to happen in Star Wars. I thought it was kind of a silly backlash in a way, because I was like, who cares?
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Cullen
It was, you know, I thought that the things that he did in it were more interesting than anything that had been done in most other recent Star Wars movies. So I was fine with it. Right. But then what you found was that you got, you know, Disney and Lucasfilm see that backlash and go into the ninth movie, which is the final one of the big series, and completely bought into all that backlash and did exactly what we're talking about.
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Cullen
Nothing but chasing after fan service.
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Clark
And service, you know.
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Cullen
Test group focused like what did people like about the last ones they did not like? And I can guarantee in 20 years people will look back on the Last Jedi and think, Oh, that was actually interesting how they made some interesting decisions there. And they kind of went against the grain of the rest of the franchise with that one.
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Cullen
Nobody will remember the most recent one because the most recent one was both. Well, it was panned by critics and audiences. It wasn't very good, period. But I do think that that's interesting and I never want to talk about Star Wars ever again. But, you know, but I still revise a I thought that it was an interesting kind of real world example of exactly what we're talking about.
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Clark
Unless perhaps sometime in the future. We mentioned Herzog's performances in The Mandalorian. That might be the only other situation where we're talking about Star Wars on this podcast. But yeah, I mean, I agree, right? And I think, look, if you're listening to this podcast, clearly, you know, Collin, you and I are actually recording this podcast and we're focusing on Herzog.
00:18:09:21 - 00:18:10:03
Clark
I think.
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Cullen
Hang on, this is being recorded at inside India.
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Clark
I you know what? And hey, in California, only one party has to give consent to recording. So that could be me. And I'm recording and, you know, but we're just going to get all over the place. We'll talk about some law, we'll talk about philosophy. We're talking about pop culture, which is going everywhere with this one today. But now I've completely forgotten what I was going to say.
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Clark
Oh, but, you know, lucky I mean, if we're talking about Herzog, clearly we're fans clearly were inspired by his work. I mean, it's you know, he the authenticity of his work, the fact that he's making films for himself and not to say that he and he talks about this, you know, he's he says, look, this isn't all about you.
00:18:55:21 - 00:19:16:00
Clark
The director doesn't have final cut. The producer doesn't have final cut. The financier doesn't have final cut. The audience does. Right. But he's you know, what he's talking about there, though, is not I mean, I don't think you know, I think it would be misconstrued. It's to say, well, what he means is shape the film to make the audience happy.
00:19:16:09 - 00:19:28:01
Clark
Yeah. No, he's saying, look, ultimately, you know, ultimately the audience is going to determine, you know, how to say that it's.
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Cullen
Success and its legacy, its.
00:19:29:06 - 00:19:37:03
Clark
Success and its legacy. And it's good. There's there is you know, it's it's yeah, exactly.
00:19:37:03 - 00:19:59:06
Cullen
So I think that distinction that you just made is really, really important because I think people so often confuse the two where they go, Yeah, you know, like, I think that that's a huge thing and it's a huge part about taking things with a grain of salt, you know, taking I've shown friends cuts of movies and this goes back even to the film school thing or the difference between going to film school and not going to film school.
00:19:59:06 - 00:20:21:07
Cullen
But I've shown friends who have gone to film school a cut of a movie, and they've gone, you know, chop chop, 8 minutes out of it or chopped some arbitrary number out of it. Right. And it's like because it's just been instilled that, you know, the shorter is better because it will get to an audience faster. But then Herzog even talks about, you know, the opposite, which is what if we sit on a shot on mute for an unusually long amount of time?
00:20:21:07 - 00:20:45:01
Cullen
Right? And that imposes this idea that the shot is now important. And I that's one thing that I think is lost in major news today, which is just this idea of being able to sit and make it atmospheric and allow things to sink in and reflective ness to. I think that you almost have to put, if you want an audience to reflect, seen the scene on your movie, you almost had to put a disclaimer at the beginning saying you're allowed to think about what you're watching right now.
00:20:45:07 - 00:20:51:00
Cullen
You know, when the movie is slow, don't just think it's boring. You know, think about what's going on and it's just kind of funny.
00:20:51:04 - 00:21:16:19
Clark
But this okay, look, and this is the point, right, is that you cannot please everyone and you just have to be willing to accept that if you're lucky, your film is going to find an audience out there. If you're lucky. Right. It because it's tough. I mean, it's a very difficult thing in this world to get to have your work seen by enough people where you have any kind, any size of audience.
00:21:16:19 - 00:21:34:01
Clark
But, you know, yeah, it's okay if the if there's a lot of people out there, right. If you've got, you know, however many billion of people out there and they're like and a big chunk of those people say this is too slow for me. You know, the editing is not, you know, why are you sitting on this scene for 5 seconds?
00:21:34:01 - 00:21:45:23
Clark
This you know, if it's okay, it's I mean, you blessed to have a small core of people who are moved and touched and inspired by your film. Yeah. I mean, my goodness. You know, here's the goal.
00:21:46:01 - 00:21:49:02
Cullen
Never go around trying to impress everybody.
00:21:49:02 - 00:21:55:09
Clark
That's I mean, when has Herzog ever been, like, a blockbuster film maker? When have his films ever like, you know.
00:21:55:09 - 00:22:03:12
Cullen
But at the same time, it's so plenty of his movies have reached, you know, universal praise. And like I would say, you know, Grizzly Man is one of.
00:22:03:13 - 00:22:29:12
Clark
Some of his films have definitely yeah, some of his films have definitely kind of broke through. I mean, and obviously, look, he's got decades and decades of work now. But yeah, I guarantee you, though, I mean, look, don't take this for granted. I mean, if I went out on in my neighborhood and I asked 50 people, I just walked down the street now 50 people who Verner Herzog was name, name of film or two of his, For me, I would be surprised if 10% could do that.
00:22:30:04 - 00:22:51:08
Clark
So we live in a little bit of a bubble where, you know, we are filmmakers, we love film, we're cinephiles. We clearly are like steeped in Herzog. You know, if I if I walk down my street, my neighborhood, and I ask people who Steven Spielberg was, I'm pretty sure 99% of the people I asked would be able to tell me right above the age of 18 or something.
00:22:51:08 - 00:23:26:20
Cullen
So, yeah, I mean, I go I mean, if you go upload something to YouTube and no matter how amazing it is, no matter how 99% of people are thumbs up being the the video, you'll always have two or three dislikes. That's the thing. There's always going to be the and I think that that's the idea of where it's like again and this is going to sound like a broken record but take everything with a grain of salt because also times when even if even if I'm sitting in a room with three other people and they all say, you know, this should change in your movie, there are times when I would say, Yeah, okay, I'm
00:23:26:20 - 00:23:42:18
Cullen
wrong, but there are also times, if I believe really strongly about yes, that I will say no, no, no, I, I don't care. I'm keeping it because that part is something that will be in there. And that's that's kind of where you got to find the balance. You don't always have to listen to the criticism or the you certainly not whatever.
00:23:42:18 - 00:24:07:04
Clark
I mean, this is really gets to the crux of a major creative, major part of the creative challenge, if you will, in creation and bringing something to people. Right. Is when do you listen? When do you take an audience, you know, an audience's feedback, and when do you stand firm in your in your intuitive, you know, in your beliefs of what this should be?
00:24:07:14 - 00:24:27:15
Clark
And that's a question, my goodness. That, you know, philosophically we could talk about for a long time. But that's, you know, this is one of the main fundamental aspects of creation and ultimately that you have to find that within yourself. Right. But certainly and Herzog talks about this and in this lesson that there is certainly that there are times to listen and there are times to stand firm.
00:24:28:06 - 00:24:39:08
Clark
And you can only really look inside yourself. Yeah, to answer that question. And each one of us is going to have a different, you know, line that we've drawn for that. So, I.
00:24:39:08 - 00:24:53:21
Cullen
Mean, even down to the fundamental technical limits of editing, I know people who will and I've worked with them and some of them are very good friends of mine who will say that, you know, I'm never editing my own stuff. I'm always sending it to another editor because it needs it. And it's like it's like.
00:24:53:21 - 00:24:54:01
Clark
This.
00:24:54:01 - 00:25:14:22
Cullen
Steadfast concrete. And they write, you know, when I say, you know, I cut this myself, they're like, Oh, no, I wouldn't do that. It's and and it's like, I've never bought into that. I've never. And you'll find that especially if you're beginning well, you know, you might be more attuned to it if your beginning is it's sort of a thing that kind of sticks out and you might get used to it later on.
00:25:14:22 - 00:25:41:15
Cullen
But film is full of that. Film is like the film industry, but be it in pre-production, production or post-production is filled with people who think that rules are concrete, that there's no way that you can get away with doing a movie without doing X, Y, Z, right, that are set oriented rules but dogmatic. So I've had these projects with people on, you know, online and in person.
00:25:41:15 - 00:25:56:12
Cullen
And it's really I always think it's funny, it always makes me laugh because I'm like that the end of the day where you're going out to put a camera somewhere and filming something, that's that's what you're doing. You know, there are rules in place to to make that easier and to make sure that you don't lose the footage, blah, blah, blah.
00:25:56:12 - 00:26:00:05
Cullen
But yeah, but then the day just think. Just think about what you're trying to do. Put it into.
00:26:00:05 - 00:26:04:19
Clark
Perspective here, guys. Yeah, it's like. It's like, you know, you're not a surgeon, like.
00:26:04:19 - 00:26:05:08
Cullen
Exactly.
00:26:05:08 - 00:26:28:04
Clark
You generally, you know, you're generally there's, you know, I don't I wouldn't call it dogma, but there are very strict procedures, right? There is, you know, there's everything from how an O.R. is like kept how people sterilized, how a procedure is like, you know, this is like very rigidly procedural ized, you know, activities and for good reason. But this is not filmmaking.
00:26:28:04 - 00:26:31:23
Clark
This is not are exactly you know, it's I keep things in perspective a little bit.
00:26:32:02 - 00:26:55:18
Cullen
And I think on on that point, too that there's there's this bit where in the lesson where Herzog talks about throwing out old footage which I am just in love with because that's what I do, I will finish a cut of a movie. I will have it maybe the final cut for maybe six months or so. And at that point, if I if I still like it and it's out there and I'm happy with it, there's nothing that's horribly wrong with it.
00:26:55:22 - 00:27:11:07
Cullen
I delete all that old footage I do not keep unless it there's something that I think would be good in a real or something that I could use for something else, like a great landscape shot or whatever. Sure, I might keep stuff like that, but in terms of the like every single audio file, every single video file. No, no, no.
00:27:11:07 - 00:27:19:21
Cullen
I and there's some people that are I mean, Terrence Malick is famously not like that. He just released a new cut of Tree of Life like two years ago. And he's.
00:27:19:22 - 00:27:20:11
Clark
Still is.
00:27:20:12 - 00:27:21:13
Cullen
That RealPlayer.
00:27:21:13 - 00:27:24:01
Clark
Just released a new cut of Godfather.
00:27:24:01 - 00:27:30:15
Cullen
Three. But I have no interest in that. I yeah, I am like Herzog says in this where it's like the carpenter doesn't keep it his shit.
00:27:30:15 - 00:27:31:09
Clark
On his mean.
00:27:31:11 - 00:27:33:20
Cullen
I'm the same I am once I'm done a movie.
00:27:33:20 - 00:27:34:08
Clark
I love that.
00:27:34:08 - 00:27:54:17
Cullen
I like to basically get the final cut, put it on a hard drive for an archive and like a backup. And that's it. Then You're the final cut. I don't need any of the old stuff. I don't need it. I don't even care really about it. I'm not somebody who's obsessed with four remastered was even. I mean, I, I appreciate them when they're done well and there's like this whole new, you know, whatever it's a restoration.
00:27:55:02 - 00:28:12:20
Cullen
But in terms of like something in the digital age, you know, everything is clean enough that you're not going to get a point in in 2050 where somebody is like, oh, this was shot on the zoom or this was recorded on the zoom matrix. This audio is so unusable. And it's that's exactly what I mean, though. It's like people future proof to future proof or something.
00:28:12:20 - 00:28:51:13
Clark
Well I mean I funny I you know it's funny I, I agree with Herzog and I agree with you, but I cannot say that I follow through with my own beliefs completely. There's definitely some cognitive dissonance here for me right now, because although I agree, I have to admit that in my closet, in my office, I have a box of hard drives and there are probably about 40 hard drives in there of all shapes and sizes that contain not just final cuts, but actually contain raw footage and audio.
00:28:51:13 - 00:29:06:19
Clark
And and you know what? It and I will I can tell you so I can tell you from personal experience, a lot of people might ask to say, well, what's the harm? What is the harm of keeping all this stuff? And I and I because I think sometimes it's maybe hard to put your finger on. So what's the big deal right.
00:29:06:19 - 00:29:23:08
Clark
Well, I think there actually is a cost to this. And maybe talking about this right now is going to motivate me to go ahead and finally toss this stuff out or at least reuse the hard drives. Of course, we throw out good hard drives. But, you know, I think there is there is definitely there's a couple of things.
00:29:23:08 - 00:29:41:11
Clark
I think one, I think it it's all of this kind of digital clutter, this kind of, you know, this kind of just hangs around like like if you if your house is cluttered, right. It's kind of a distraction to you all the time. It's like, well, this you know, I've got all this footage. It's kind of like hanging in the back of your mind.
00:29:41:11 - 00:29:50:01
Clark
It's like they're in the closet. It's like, Well, maybe I'll do something with it. I know you're not. I'm not going to do anything with it. It's just a distraction, you know? Yeah.
00:29:50:01 - 00:29:55:05
Cullen
And I think that so often it's almost a tempting temptation to go back and fiddle with it when.
00:29:55:05 - 00:29:55:15
Clark
You need to be.
00:29:55:15 - 00:29:56:10
Cullen
Going forward.
00:29:56:11 - 00:30:17:08
Clark
Right? When you need to be going forward. Right. It's a diversion of energy. It's a diversion of focus. And and really, I mean, I think it's it's it just kind of I think it's a distraction of focus that keeps you right, that has you looking backward at stuff you've already done and the likelihood that you're going to do anything else with it is a come on.
00:30:17:11 - 00:30:34:15
Clark
It's it's basically zero or else you would have done it. And and and if you did go back and do it. So let's say that that one in a million chance came along and you did do something with it. I mean, come on, if it's sitting under your bed in your closet, how inspired are you really how motivated are you really so what kind of work you're going to do it with it?
00:30:34:15 - 00:30:47:00
Clark
It's not going to come from a place of inspiration or motivation, right? It's like it's coming from some other place, like obligation or Well, I've had these things in my closet for years. I guess I should do something with it. Screw that stuff.
00:30:47:00 - 00:31:00:12
Cullen
It's just like this weird forward, like, security of just like, Well, what? Or what if the project gets here and I got to, you know, I've got to react, But it's like that that not so rare. And there's no you're hoarding for the sake of hoarding. But I also think I.
00:31:00:12 - 00:31:00:21
Clark
Agree.
00:31:00:22 - 00:31:25:06
Cullen
With what you just said is, you know, and Herzog doesn't specifically touch on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was similar in this way. That is the most I'll keep in the long term is and usually just for educational purposes is like maybe the three rough cuts or something like that. Right. And that we can kind of go back and it's sometimes it's a little bit fun to to go and watch the first cut of a movie and sort of go, okay, that's what I did.
00:31:25:06 - 00:31:30:13
Cullen
And that's those are decisions I made. And again, for education to, you know, since I teach a class, wasn't very useful.
00:31:30:13 - 00:31:31:11
Clark
Right? Absolutely.
00:31:31:11 - 00:31:50:06
Cullen
To go back and sort of say like here was the first cut of this and then but just exactly what you said in terms of the full raw files, you know, footage that are massive, massive files, they're huge. Always, even if you're shooting on a like a really, really file of file size friendly format.
00:31:50:06 - 00:31:50:18
Clark
Terabyte, they're.
00:31:50:19 - 00:32:14:21
Cullen
Still going to be a huge amount of footage. Yeah I have no yeah I, I just like you mentioned, just like Herzog mentioned, I have no interest in keeping those around. It also to me almost and maybe this is just kind of, you know, philosophical, but I find that it prevents me from feeling like the work is done even if I'm happy with a final cut.
00:32:14:21 - 00:32:34:02
Cullen
If I've got the footage still sitting around, I still feel like there's potential that again, in ten years I might go back and I have that little double voice in my head. And so I don't really find that I'm completely satisfied with a work until I almost forced myself to be by just deleting all the all the archived raw footage.
00:32:34:02 - 00:32:36:04
Cullen
And then I'm like, Now there's nothing I can do.
00:32:36:07 - 00:32:56:08
Clark
Well, this is important and this is important. And we've touched on this, you know, in a few different ways. But it's definitely something that Herzog talks about in this lesson. It's about being decisive, learning to be decisive. And you've great Segway. You've tied it into this to if you're saving all of your footage. You know, we've talked about this for shooting, too.
00:32:56:08 - 00:33:17:21
Clark
We've talked about, look, don't just don't, don't just take take after take after take and coverage. Just get all the coverage you can possibly get. You are putting off the decision making, which is the heart of your art. And you know, it's the same with this if you're in editing and you yet, you know, being decisive is just an absolutely vital part of this art.
00:33:19:07 - 00:33:35:21
Clark
And I think this is this is tied into that, right. Herzog talks about. And I of course, you know, I love the way he always puts things, but he talks about, look, you know, this is a profession. This isn't your pet. You've got to be a professional. You've got to you know, and of course, we've talked about this many times.
00:33:35:21 - 00:33:57:02
Clark
You know, Herzog is clearly a very intuitive filmmaker. And so he talks about just, you know, the foot, you know, what speaks to him. And, of course, I mean, ultimately, I think we all have to be right. I mean, you know, ultimately we're all kind of relying on our intuition. This is kind of what art is. We balance that with some feedback, which we've talked about.
00:33:57:02 - 00:34:01:22
Clark
But yeah, ultimately, you know, editing is about making decisions.
00:34:02:09 - 00:34:23:05
Cullen
Mm hmm. And I also want to put in a caveat there, too, for things like, like director's cuts, which are a different beast because I think that most often a director's cut is created because of marketing, you know, marketing and, well, marketing. But also sometimes, like I think of Once Upon a Time in America where it was, you know, the movie was significantly cut down.
00:34:23:05 - 00:34:23:19
Cullen
And I think.
00:34:23:22 - 00:34:25:17
Clark
Studios forced changes that.
00:34:25:21 - 00:34:44:06
Cullen
I think Leone said, you know, it was the movie was neutered by the studio and then went and created the director's cut And it's I prefer the director's cut. I think it's a masterpiece. I think the original is very good, too. But I think that I can see why. And same with, you know, Blade Running Blade Runner. The final cut is the best cut of that movie.
00:34:45:05 - 00:35:06:02
Cullen
So there's a difference there where it's like if I obviously if I was working for a big studio, I didn't really get the motion picture I wanted at the end due to that kind of thing. Sure, I might keep that footage around so that I can then go back and make the movie that I wanted. But oftentimes, too, that director director's cut is going to be an earlier cut anyway.
00:35:06:02 - 00:35:09:23
Cullen
It's got you're already going to have that cut. That was like we changed. Yeah, correct.
00:35:09:23 - 00:35:16:17
Clark
So yeah, that's likely the case. It's not that you've gone back and you've re-edited the film, it's more that, well, this is the edit you wanted.
00:35:17:01 - 00:35:17:18
Cullen
But you.
00:35:17:22 - 00:35:18:11
Clark
Remind me.
00:35:18:20 - 00:35:32:10
Cullen
Usually when I see, you know, when I see a movie or a director that does go back and do exactly that, which is like this, this going back after the fact and saying, you know what, maybe I could tweak this like you mean like the final cut of Lucas, but also Coppola? I mean, the final could have a.
00:35:32:10 - 00:35:33:05
Clark
Couple is doing that.
00:35:33:05 - 00:35:41:03
Cullen
So I saw and the final cut was was not nearly as good as the original. I was sitting with a friend other three for Apocalypse Now.
00:35:41:08 - 00:35:50:04
Clark
Apocalypse Now, because I haven't seen Godfather three. I'm curious to see the deaths. Yeah, Yeah. Apparently he changed the ending and I haven't seen it, but yeah.
00:35:50:11 - 00:36:02:15
Cullen
I have to watch that one. But. But I saw the final cut of Apocalypse Now in theaters, and me and a friend both saw it and sort of said, like, what was the point? You know, pretty substantial. Nothing was added to it. I mean, there was added footage, but nothing.
00:36:02:15 - 00:36:21:00
Clark
You don't feel like it added to the story, Right? Exactly. Yeah. And it's it's interesting. And I would, you know, look, I would love to have Coppola in front of me now and I would love to ask him what his thoughts were there. You know, was it because he felt like he had to make these compromises of time that the film was too low?
00:36:21:02 - 00:36:31:06
Clark
Studio wouldn't allow it, You know, whatever. I you know, who knows if it was like, no, this is really, really the film I wanted to release or was it something that came to him later and he thought, you know, yeah.
00:36:31:07 - 00:36:33:09
Cullen
You know, if we're doing a 4K restoration, might as well.
00:36:33:09 - 00:36:34:16
Clark
Yeah, right. I don't know.
00:36:35:07 - 00:36:57:12
Cullen
But I do think it's a really interesting topic. I mean, I think that, that because it's so in line with, with like I again I know people who would never ever do that like I my friend Blair, who I work with at the company I started he is a white person and works primarily in post and is an archive or so his philosophy on this is completely different.
00:36:57:12 - 00:37:09:14
Cullen
Like he is like, we've got to get a harddrive, we got to go save, you know, all of our raw footage goes on to, you know, three different hard drives for multitudes of backups, blah, blah, blah, stuff like that, which I can appreciate. I mean, I appreciate that. Well, it's a thought.
00:37:09:19 - 00:37:13:07
Clark
As you're going through production til the film is released.
00:37:13:07 - 00:37:15:16
Cullen
And then at that point, I don't care. Yeah, absolutely.
00:37:16:03 - 00:37:34:07
Clark
Yeah, that's a whole different right. And that's a whole different technical conversation about, you know, backups and backups and backups. I mean, that's a whole different. Yeah, absolutely. There's about file management and archiving during the production process, but once the film is it's finished, it's released, it's done. You know, keeping all of this raw footage is is a different thing.
00:37:34:17 - 00:37:59:18
Clark
But I mean, can you imagine that We've talked about Coppola, Ridley Scott, many other directors have released director's cuts for various reasons. But one of the things that's so endearing to me about Herzog is that all of his films are director's cuts. There are no I mean, what can you say? None of his films has he'd gone back and tweaked them and said, No, no, this is like really the film that I wanted to release.
00:37:59:18 - 00:38:07:01
Cullen
I don't think any of his films either. He's come out and said that he wasn't proud of. No, I don't think he's ever come out and said, Oh, you know, that one didn't go so well.
00:38:07:06 - 00:38:24:02
Clark
Well, except for, I think, one of the first films he ever did. And this story is a little bit sketchy in my mind right now, but I think there was an issue where something happened on set. Could this have possibly been with an animal or something? That was one of the first films he ever did, and he said he'll never release it.
00:38:24:20 - 00:38:44:13
Clark
I, I feel I feel I feel bad that I don't have this exact memory, like, perfectly formed in my head, but I'm pretty sure I remember there was something about some kind of I don't know if an animal was injured or if there was some kind of like animal cruelty or something on set or actually not just on set, I mean, on camera.
00:38:44:13 - 00:38:53:06
Clark
And Herzog says he'll never release this film. So I pretty sure there is a film that he doesn't want to ever see the light of day.
00:38:53:11 - 00:38:59:07
Cullen
But to to to be fair to that, too, that's not necessarily the quality of the film. It's more correct. The subject.
00:38:59:07 - 00:39:00:13
Clark
Matter? I don't think so. Yeah, right.
00:39:00:17 - 00:39:13:06
Cullen
But I don't think as far as quality, like I don't think he's ever gone back and said I could have done better that way. I don't think it's like and maybe that is, you know, a direct result of his throwing out the old material, like perhaps.
00:39:13:09 - 00:39:14:00
Clark
Who needed to see.
00:39:14:03 - 00:39:23:21
Cullen
If that one aspect of his personality was different and he kept that footage, perhaps we would have, you know, a whole bunch of director's cut from Herzog, and it could be.
00:39:23:21 - 00:39:56:11
Clark
Yeah, yeah. I do want to speak to this really quickly since I had a quick second here to look it up. So, yeah, so you're right, I don't think this is necessarily a question about quality, but just since we're here, we're talking about Herzog, a little bit of trivia. So actually his film titled Game in the Sand, which was a short film that he wrote and directed in 1964, the plot apparently concerns four children and a rooster in a cardboard box and actually very little is known about this film.
00:39:57:00 - 00:40:22:13
Clark
It's never been published. It's never been published, publicly shown. And Herzog states that he'll never give it a release in his lifetime. He says that the shooting got out of hand, and that's kind of all he's really ever said about it. And so you're right. I don't think that he's saying I don't think that this film has artistic merit or quality, but he's saying maybe more for moral or ethical reasons, he doesn't want it released.
00:40:22:13 - 00:40:56:02
Clark
So I was like, I'm pretty sure there's a film out there that. But you're right, you know, totally different thing there. But this is one of the things that inspires me about Herzog. You know, the fact that he's been able to maintain his autonomy and that he's been, you know, that he is so decisive in the edit and of course, behind the camera and with writing and that the films that he releases that are the films that he wanted to make, I mean, there are always films are always compromises, but I mean, that that these are films that he can completely stand behind.
00:40:56:11 - 00:40:57:20
Clark
I love that. I love that.
00:40:58:07 - 00:41:22:09
Cullen
And I've got to say, too, that there's, you know, just to retrace our steps just for a second about the idea of editing, whether it's on your own or using somebody else to edit and like, you know, sending that footage off to another editor. I had a great conversation with a friend of mine recently where she was. We were talking about this this idea of like, you know, for and it was for the feature.
00:41:22:09 - 00:41:53:13
Cullen
She's one of the people that's producing this feature that we're doing right now. Yeah. And we were talking about editing and, you know, what do we do when we get to post? Do we hire an editor, etc.? And it was actually what was nice about it was also it was very casual. It wasn't really a formal meeting. It was just us having a casual hang out and just this stuff came up and we were all on the same page where we were just kind of talking about the fact that it's like whether we send it off to somebody else to cut that movie together and to get, you know, I'm doing air quotes with my
00:41:53:13 - 00:42:12:23
Cullen
hands, did like get a second pair of eyes on it versus us as a team or even just me cutting something together and then showing it to other eyes. I don't. Again, there's some people that are very, very pedantic about that and kind of go like, No, no, no, you have to get it on another person's hands. Whereas again, it's one of those things where I'm I'm thinking like, I'm going to get that feedback.
00:42:12:23 - 00:42:30:21
Cullen
Either way, I'm just more likely going to like the cut more if I do it myself, or at least I'm involved in that first cutting process versus and especially at this budget level, especially at this budget level, send off editing footage to an editor and of course you're not paying them a lot. And it's not their fault that they don't get to it because they're not being paid a lot.
00:42:31:22 - 00:42:52:07
Cullen
Yeah, and you don't get it back for like two months and then two months later you're like and you're like, Yeah, exactly. I've got a we did a movie. I didn't direct again, it was, but it was under my production company that we shot back in February. And it's a I think it's like a five minute short film and it's still being cut because the director, you know, it's his way of working.
00:42:52:07 - 00:43:09:05
Cullen
But he was very adamant that he sends it off to another editor, and that was that was his way of working. And so I'm not going to fight him on that because that's his process. But I just it kind of again, reinforced to me this idea of like, you know, I could I could put that together in 2 hours into a work print cut rather than having to wait.
00:43:09:05 - 00:43:10:12
Cullen
Now it's coming on. You know.
00:43:10:19 - 00:43:38:05
Clark
This is great point. Yeah, this is a great point. You know, obviously for people who are at this at that stage of your career or the projects of that size, I totally agree. I mean, I've got a situation where a documentary film that I started shooting over a year ago and the our my producer partner on that film, we decided that we would take our four is a documentary, a lot of interview, a lot of following people around.
00:43:38:11 - 00:44:00:17
Clark
It's got a thousand miles to Hollywood and we we spend all this time and money traveling around the country filming and we kind of, you know, I was like, well, you know, I kind of he felt very strongly about having somebody else edit it. I thought, okay, I'm willing to do that. I'm willing to explore that. And here we sit and we don't have a cut.
00:44:01:17 - 00:44:29:11
Clark
We went through a process where we hired hired an editor. It didn't work out very well. We didn't get make progress anywhere near as fast as we had hoped. And what we saw was not really terribly usable at the end of the day, even after all this waiting. And so I've been thinking quite a bit about going back and okay, I'm just going to sit down, I'm going to break out that footage and I'm going to start cutting this thing myself, you know, because it's when you don't have that, we don't have a ton of money behind this project.
00:44:29:19 - 00:44:45:20
Clark
So. Right. It's not going to find a talented, motivated editor and be able to motivate them to put this in their list of priorities and get it done with assumed debt with, you know, DEADLINE That's that's not way off in the distance. It's tough. So you mean even going back to.
00:44:46:02 - 00:45:06:10
Cullen
It even goes back to as well the idea that we talked about, I think in the first few episodes, which is just this idea of thinking like an editor while you're directing and in some people don't do that, some people are just focused on the shots and things like that, or working only with actors. Some directors are very, very kind of focused in that way, whereas I am able to kind of juggle those things and kind of go, I know what this is going to edit together.
00:45:06:10 - 00:45:25:16
Cullen
Like even if I don't write the movie, I'm sure I think that, that and at the end of the day, what I always kind of say is whether, you know, if I take this, if I have a cut in my mind for this and I take it and I edit it, whether or not that edit works or not doesn't matter, because if it doesn't work, people are going to tell me it doesn't work.
00:45:26:05 - 00:45:40:07
Cullen
I don't need to send it off to somebody else to learn that that doesn't work because I'm going to find out that it doesn't work because people will tell me, you know, even if I cut it myself, right? Yeah. They think that's that's the biggest kind of for me is, you know, Sure.
00:45:40:07 - 00:45:47:13
Clark
I think that for me, the thing that I hold out hope for, the thing that I'm looking for, though, is for somebody to add to my vision.
00:45:47:17 - 00:45:48:09
Cullen
Yes. Yeah.
00:45:48:09 - 00:46:07:14
Clark
And that's, you know, and it's the same with actors, right? We've talked about working with actors is the reason I don't want to give line readings is the reason that I'm not, you know, stuck to a script like it's you know, written in stone. You know, ideally you have collaborators who are bringing more and more and more to your vision, right?
00:46:07:14 - 00:46:37:14
Clark
As a director, you own the vision. Yes. But ideally, you've got people who are able to bring their expertise in and add to that it's not it's not that they're changing your vision, but they're adding to it. And art and filmmaking is a collaborative art form. I mean, it with the exception of I mean, the smallest of small films where you're literally doing every single, every single job that But that's pretty darn foreign few between, right?
00:46:38:03 - 00:46:57:12
Clark
It's a it's a collaborative art form. So it's like I you know, another example that I have where I kind of, you know, I collaborated on the editing. I worked as I'm kind of credited as an assistant editor for another feature film that's soon to be released. And I didn't sit down in front of the computer and edit this thing.
00:46:57:20 - 00:47:14:19
Clark
I assisted them by watching the film that they had kind of they brought me in late in the process right? And they'd already had a cut and they know they're having some challenges. It's not the film that they thought it was going to be. They've gotten some challenging feedback a little better. They're, you know, they're working to make it better.
00:47:14:19 - 00:47:36:07
Clark
And they asked me to sit down with this cut and help them work on it. And so I pulled together about 30 pages of notes, and then I sat down with the editor and they talked through these things. And hopefully I hope I was able to bring, you know, I'm try try it. So, you know, in that position there, it's not like I'm trying to change the director's vision.
00:47:36:07 - 00:47:53:08
Clark
I'm trying. Okay, What was your vision? You know, So I'm talking to the director. I'm like, what? Talking to the writer. What were you trying to do here? Help me get inside head as much as possible, and then I can help them try to shape this in a way that's going to match their vision. So hopefully I was able to do that and bring some value to that, you know.
00:47:53:08 - 00:48:00:10
Cullen
And also let me just I just want to clarify, too, that I'm not in any way adverse to somebody else cutting. Sure. A movie of mine.
00:48:00:15 - 00:48:04:02
Clark
And I just since I'm getting a sense, I know what it is you're not I.
00:48:04:12 - 00:48:10:01
Cullen
I am a control. As you've said before, I'm a you've worked with me on set. I slap people.
00:48:10:15 - 00:48:14:06
Clark
It's fine. I still got bruises and scars from that incident.
00:48:14:16 - 00:48:34:09
Cullen
But I it's more of that if I'm if somebody else is cutting the movie. Yeah, I'm there in the cutting room with them. Sure. And then I'm involved in that process. What I don't like and what is probably the most common style of of editing in the indie market if you don't have you know, if you're not editing yourself.
00:48:34:09 - 00:48:40:17
Cullen
Is that exactly that idea of just sending it off to somebody and not being able to be there with them? Sure. And that's a that's what I.
00:48:40:17 - 00:48:43:07
Clark
Would never recommend that. Yeah, that should always. But it's.
00:48:43:07 - 00:49:03:15
Cullen
So common. That's the thing is it's very it's almost it's almost become a norm. Yeah. Which is just this idea that and I think that I think a lot of that does again come back to this idea of film school where the way that film school trains people to make movies is that like if you're the cinematographer, you're the cinematographer and you're going get marks off if you do anything else.
00:49:04:16 - 00:49:19:23
Cullen
So it's this very, again, dogmatic approach to, you know, the director. If you're if you're the director, you have to get someone from the editing program into your to edit your movie. And I, you know, again, I didn't go to film school, but I've experienced this firsthand when I.
00:49:19:23 - 00:49:24:02
Clark
Was likely because they're trying to teach students how to work within the boundaries.
00:49:24:03 - 00:49:43:19
Cullen
And I think but I think it's kind of ironic because it's like, you know, you just wind up teaching people that you have to do this, this you know, X, Y, Z. But I think that I experienced it firsthand once when I was, you know, I I'd offered to do cinematography on a friend of mine's movie who was in film school and they said, yeah.
00:49:43:19 - 00:50:11:08
Cullen
And so I started doing it. And then they got in trouble from their, their school because they were like they weren't using somebody from the cinematography class to do their cinematography. So it's this again, it's this funny kind of very rules oriented thing, which I think can be sort of harmful to learning. I think that I think is I think filmmaking is so much about finding your own way to do it and that there isn't really a steadfast.
00:50:11:18 - 00:50:22:19
Clark
I will I will add this caveat, though I will add this caveat, though, is that that can be very challenging to do as you move into professional realms depending on your country, etc..
00:50:22:22 - 00:50:23:13
Cullen
Oh, of course.
00:50:23:16 - 00:50:46:12
Clark
Depending on your region where not if you're working on union films there that can actually be quite challenging. So I can see where there I agree with you to great extent that it's, you know, having the flexibility to move from position to best position, to have the flexibility to kind of share tasks and have a more organic structure to the production.
00:50:46:12 - 00:51:14:20
Clark
But also in reality, though, and again, especially at higher levels, you're you're definitely going to have to deal with different departments and very specific skill sets and very specific like basic like union requirements for what people can do and can't do. So being able to work within that as well, I think is still is still a worthwhile skill, but if that's the only way you work, I think, you know, there's a blending of the two of those things where appropriate.
00:51:15:01 - 00:51:28:17
Cullen
And I will say to that like, yeah, I'm completely pro-union. Of course, I think that it's great, but I think a lot of times those restrictions and those union based restrictions are more, you know, they're they can be needed because of of labor. They're not.
00:51:28:20 - 00:51:29:08
Clark
Protecting.
00:51:30:10 - 00:52:05:16
Cullen
You know, creativity. Right. They're they're protecting labor rights of workers. So they're not. LULI Whereas I, I think that Herzog embodies this idea that like the style of filmmaking that I really love and I don't mean I don't mean style in terms of, like what his movies are about and what they're like esthetically, I mean, the style of his approach to the craft is something that I really admire because, yeah, he breaks down those ideas where it's like, you can trust him to say to you, you know, if you're on a union set that like, respect those rules and respect those those, you know, very, very important rules.
00:52:07:02 - 00:52:23:06
Cullen
But at the same time to be able to say, you know, you know, no, I'm going to I can take this and I can cut it together. I'm not shafting anybody out of a job. I'm just using the creative process to prove a point. And to to get an idea across, which I think is very admirable, because a lot of people won't do that.
00:52:23:06 - 00:52:26:09
Cullen
A lot of people will just kind of sit down and go, okay, well, the rules are rules.
00:52:26:14 - 00:52:43:18
Clark
You find where you find ways to work within the system. You can find actors if you know, filmmaking is a it's a it's a big it's a big chunk of this is creative problem solving, right? I mean, every day there's ways to do it for sure where you can you can manage the requirements of of all these aspects, you know for sure.
00:52:43:18 - 00:53:03:05
Clark
And something that I want to touch on briefly, because I think I don't think we've talked about it too much yet, but it's I think it's something that I know it's something I don't think it's something that Herzog talks about in his lesson. But I think it's important he talks about just kind of like some logistics about how what his process is when he sits down with his editor.
00:53:04:01 - 00:53:26:16
Clark
And I take this as great advice and I highly recommend people to do this. I do this myself as well. But he talks about working with a log book, basically. MM Yeah. And so, you know, he's got you shot all this footage now you're sitting down to watch it. And I actually kind of intuitively, I mean, I guess I taught myself how to edit like, like you.
00:53:26:16 - 00:53:42:06
Clark
I didn't go to film school. It was by necessity. I had shot some things I wanted to make for myself, my own work as an actor. And so that's how I kind of fell into writing and directing and okay, well, now I've got this footage, I have to edit it. So I kind of taught myself how to do that.
00:53:42:13 - 00:54:00:16
Clark
And this is kind of how I ended up just falling into doing it. But I would sit through and I would watch all the footage and I would make notes and basically I would just, you know, what stood out to me? What takes stood out to me as being the best one. And I just started to make notes about all the footage.
00:54:00:16 - 00:54:26:00
Clark
You know, this take this, take this, and just had kind of created a log book. I did mine in a spreadsheet, actually, on my computer, and Herzog uses an actual notebook and writes longhand, I think, Well, whatever floats your boat. But but Herzog talks about the importance of doing this. And I agree that you you watch the footage, you what you don't and what you watch all of it before you start editing.
00:54:26:00 - 00:54:26:22
Clark
I don't know if that's how.
00:54:26:22 - 00:54:33:12
Cullen
It's I mean, it's like I told you this exactly. This daily. Right. I'll sit down and watch all the dailies and you know everything and make notes and.
00:54:33:18 - 00:54:58:11
Clark
Yeah, yeah. And it just it's instead of because I think I kind of draw an analogy here, you know, he talks about, look, you know, watch it less and remember more so one of the great things about writing is that, of course, it's going to help get the memory of this footage into your mind faster. Yeah. When you write things down, that helps with your memory, but it also keeps you from having to go back and watch again and again and again and again.
00:54:58:19 - 00:55:23:07
Clark
And I think it was the same thing we talked about when we're working with actors, and I think I had talked about how I do not like to, you know, quote unquote memorize lines because what most people are doing when they're memorizing lines is that they're memorized by rote. If you say something over and over and over and over and over, what happens is, is that it just starts to become abstract sounds and you take.
00:55:23:08 - 00:55:24:01
Cullen
You mean again.
00:55:24:12 - 00:55:48:00
Clark
There's no meaning, there's no connection to any kind of emotional content there. Well, I think the same thing happens when you're watching your footage. If you watch your footage over and over and over and over and over again, you're going to end up becoming numb to it. Mm hmm. And and this and I think this is what happens to, you know, we're talking about having editors come in, finding that, you know, having this objective voice to help you.
00:55:48:00 - 00:56:07:05
Clark
Edit if if you're unable to do that. Well, look, in every instance, I think this is a tool that's really useful. You know, one of the ways if you're acting as your own editor, this is a way that you can try to help maintain some objectivity and, not turn numb to your own footage, which is you use a log book and don't watch your footage over and over and over again.
00:56:07:05 - 00:56:33:15
Cullen
It's funny cause it's another one of those things that I think I inadvertently stole from Herzog just without knowing it. But I do the exact same thing, which is longhand in a notebook with exclamation marks. Okay. Wasn't until I rewatched these lessons and I went, Maybe I just subconsciously took that from them. But it's also I mean, I did the exact like when I was doing, again, this home movie documentary, I had hours and hours and footage of footage both from my childhood and my dad's childhood that I just sat and watched through all of it and did that exact thing, which is just making notes.
00:56:33:15 - 00:57:00:02
Cullen
That was, of course, documentary. It's applicable to narrative. Yeah, But I think also it's it's a it's one of those things, again, that kind of a great tip that otherwise for that I've heard and that I use for because obviously you're going to have to watch your footage a bunch just if you are seeing it. And I it's really important, as you said, to not get numb to it, not exactly like when you watch it over and over tonight.
00:57:00:11 - 00:57:25:21
Cullen
But a really, really simple way to actually prevent that sometimes is just mirroring the footage and literally just applying a mirror filter to it so that it flips and I find that sometimes that immediately it's probably something just with your brain that immediately goes like, Oh, that's new. And that could be both. Really? Really. I learned that from visual that, you know, if you're because obviously if you're working on a visual effect, you're going to be working on it for, you know, weeks.
00:57:26:00 - 00:57:26:08
Clark
Right.
00:57:26:13 - 00:57:43:16
Cullen
And narrowing those things down. And eventually you can just start losing context as to what looks real, what looks not real, what you need to work on. Yeah. So a lot of visual effects artists use that, which is just reverse the footage and immediately it looks like something new. It looks like something you didn't create because your brain has been looking at it a certain way the whole time.
00:57:43:23 - 00:58:17:07
Cullen
And but you can take that principle from visual effects and apply it. So I'll often do that, which is if I make a cut of something the first time I watch it, I'll actually watch it mirrored. So it's interesting. Doesn't look like the thing. I just cut it actually just comes out as something that's completely new. And I found, you know, that it has honestly helped a lot with just feeling like I'm watching something that I didn't make and feeling like you're more of an audience member because it's an interesting it's like a super, super simple thing that's probably, again, just like fooling your brain.
00:58:17:13 - 00:58:41:06
Cullen
Yeah, it's one of those things that just kind of subconsciously you don't really notice. But yeah, it's, it's a great tip. But again, yeah, this whole idea of writing down footage, there is a great tragedy to people that, you know, will shoot a whole bunch of stuff and then wound up wind up missing because they don't want to watch all the takes of a scene, or they'll just go to the last take because they'll go, okay, this one's the best.
00:58:41:06 - 00:59:07:00
Cullen
That's what we're using, right? But they won't watch the moments. And that's something you'll notice so often in, you know, major movies is that I and I saw this saw my mind because I it was recent. But parasite, there's a lot of moments in Parasite where Bong Joon Ho and the editor I can't remember the editor's name, but they actually combine two different takes of scenes in one take.
00:59:07:00 - 00:59:20:07
Cullen
Like they'll just do the classic cut on a pan or something like that, and it'll be, you know, because they liked one actor's performance better and the other take. And they were sure this actor's performance in this take and it's not enough, right? It's yeah it's not even cutting back and forth is in like a shot over shot.
00:59:20:11 - 00:59:22:23
Clark
Mode Jindo Yang edited that, by the way. Okay. Yeah.
00:59:22:23 - 00:59:50:12
Cullen
So so they did that a lot in parasite and I'm sure they did that in Bong's other movies as well but it's it's again you learn these tricks that you don't without forensic analysis you can kind of miss. And I think that forensic analysis can be very bad in some ways because I don't think that you should be analyzing frame by frame movies in terms of like content and trying to pull every ounce of meaning because you'll just start inventing meaning.
00:59:51:13 - 01:00:05:06
Cullen
But I do think that it's really important in terms of technical skills to kind of go like how do they you know, that's a really neat thing. I can sort of see the cut if you slow it down. Yeah. So why did they do that and kind of learning about it that way and going like, okay, so that's there you go.
01:00:05:06 - 01:00:09:06
Cullen
There's a lesson as to why you should watch all of your takes and watch every take.
01:00:09:06 - 01:00:10:10
Clark
Yeah, absolutely.
01:00:10:10 - 01:00:15:07
Cullen
Because you might find that there's just something subtle and one that works and something in another.
01:00:15:07 - 01:00:36:14
Clark
Absolutely. That's a good point. That's a good point. And and just one more reason why, you know, logging all of that is so helpful if you've got, you know, however many takes of how many you have 30, 40 hours of footage, you know, it making notes of those moments, it can really make it a lot. It's because it just gets overwhelming fast.
01:00:36:14 - 01:00:55:06
Clark
Even on a short film, the amount of footage you've got and takes it can get it can get crazy, but that. Yeah, yeah, but that is a great point because. Right. Usually I mean I even in very casual projects of my own, that's often the case is that I often am adding, you know, taking moments from multiple takes.
01:00:56:05 - 01:01:08:13
Clark
It's very rare that I just have that this one take for this entire scene. Everything was, you know, better than everything else. I'm usually mixing up moments. Yeah. And yeah. And so that's a great point. Yeah, that's kind of a.
01:01:08:14 - 01:01:15:18
Cullen
Fun about editing too, is that you're kind of like it's literally cutting and pasting. Like you're, you're basically going like, I like that bit and you can you pull it?
01:01:15:18 - 01:01:48:10
Clark
Yeah, absolutely. And even with your audio as well, I mean we get the, the goal of this is not to get into the technical aspects of editing, but you know, yes, you've got your visual, you're editing the visual information to moving pictures, but you also have this extraordinary this extraordinary opportunity with your audio. There are so many moments where if you're not seeing the actor's mouth moving, you can do anything you want with the audio, you know, and and oftentimes, even when the actors mouth is moving and it's very plain, there are a lot of things you can do with audio.
01:01:48:10 - 01:02:09:11
Clark
So there's yeah, that's that's kind of a whole other episode there. But but there is an extraordinary world of opportunity in editing. So. Wow. Well, I think Colin, we've covered pretty much everything. Yeah. Herzog's lesson Can you think of anything that we didn't cover? I think we got it pretty good that that's.
01:02:09:11 - 01:02:11:22
Cullen
Yeah, I think we did. We did a decent job on this.
01:02:12:10 - 01:02:44:02
Clark
I hope. Well, hey, look like Herzog says, it's up to the audience. It's up to the audience. So we hope that it has been a fun experience for you. It's always fun for me. I love doing these because it you know, and you probably experienced this when you teach, too, but it helps me so much to kind of talk about these things, you know, try to put myself I often try to put myself in the perspective of, you know, in the mind of someone who doesn't have I mean, I'm very I would still consider myself much a beginner.
01:02:44:02 - 01:03:14:21
Clark
I consider myself very much in the learning stages of doing this, for sure. But I try to put myself in my mindset of even, you know, 15 years ago or 20 years ago when I really had no experience. And but this always helps, you know, to just kind of remember some of these things. I feel like every one of these we do, I kind of come away with like, oh, like you're like your thought on, hey, you know, near that you just flip things around and that can kind of be just another enough of a switch to kind of refresh your brain on it.
01:03:15:04 - 01:03:21:22
Clark
And then I'm thinking to myself, Yeah, well, what about color? Like, I don't think I've ever taken my footage and made it black and white and then watched it. I'd be that could.
01:03:21:22 - 01:03:25:23
Cullen
Be a lot of fun. I actually I will do that for fun sometimes and yeah, to see what it looks like, but.
01:03:25:23 - 01:03:34:12
Clark
As a way to see it differently. And I and I will even add further and I have done this is to watch it without sound, but then also to just listen to it.
01:03:34:19 - 01:03:35:11
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah.
01:03:35:11 - 01:03:39:12
Clark
So there's a lot of different thing, you know, and sometimes you just forget the stuff, you know, It's like, Oh crap.
01:03:39:12 - 01:03:44:10
Cullen
I yeah, I mean, I'm honestly, I'm really lucky that I do see a lot of that with teaching because so often it is just.
01:03:44:10 - 01:04:06:18
Clark
Like it reminds you over and over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's a great way to learn yourself. So I'm very appreciative for that. All right. Well, we'll wrap up then. Colin, as always, man, thanks so much. You bring some wonderful ideas to the table here, and I always really enjoy having these conversations with you. Next week we're going to be moving on to lesson 18.
01:04:06:23 - 01:04:32:20
Clark
And if I am not mistaken, lesson 18 is titled Invaded by Images. And then there's a two parter, right? I think Lesson 18 Endless. In 19, they're invaded by images one and two. So I'm excited to revisit and to revisit those. It's yeah, I'll have to watch it again. Now, it's been so long since I've watched these things, but I will will rewatch it and we'd be prepped to to come back next week and talk about the next lesson.
01:04:33:04 - 01:04:33:15
Cullen
Totally.
01:04:33:20 - 01:04:37:20
Clark
All right, man. Well, great. Well, until then, everybody, have a wonderful week. We'll see you soon.
01:04:38:02 - 01:04:45:18
Cullen
All right. Bye, everyone.