Episode - 041 - Cullen Notes Part 1

Cullen

Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. Episode 41. This is another little special episode we're doing just about the behind the scenes kind of making of the feature that I'm working on right now. Of course, I'm joined by Clark. As always, Clark. Coffey.

00:00:26:21 - 00:00:29:21

Clark

How's it going? Hello. It's going fantastic. How are you, sir?

00:00:30:04 - 00:00:31:03

Cullen

I'm good. Good.

00:00:31:11 - 00:00:31:22

Clark

Excellent.

00:00:32:02 - 00:00:32:10

Cullen

Yeah.

00:00:32:11 - 00:00:35:18

Clark

I'm excited to hear about your movie and how production is coming along.

00:00:36:00 - 00:00:56:14

Cullen

Yeah. So, I mean, at this point, from the last episode like this, we did. I've done my first shoot day. Yeah. All right. So beforehand I was just in rehearsals, and now I've. I've. I've shot one day and I've had to ship some schedule things, but. But everything is going quite smoothly right off the bat. I know that's not great for the drama and the excitement.

00:00:56:14 - 00:01:16:04

Clark

It always is. But you've got 90% of your shoot days left. So I'm sure. Yes. That we're going to get some we'll get some drama in there at some point, you know. I hope so. But it'll be interesting. I mean, to recap a little bit, you know, our last and first special episode, we kind of talked a little bit about, you know, the rehearsals that you were doing, preparation.

00:01:16:04 - 00:01:42:05

Clark

I mean, we covered everything from kind of your writing process to, you know, casting, prepping with actors, how you were putting together your shot list and how your rehearsals were informing that and a lot of different things like that. So I think it'd be interesting to kind of we can kind of quickly in a short episode here, touch base on how all of that pre-production preparation is actually shaking out in real life on, you know, on the field your first day of production.

00:01:42:05 - 00:01:45:09

Clark

So. So yeah, I.

00:01:45:09 - 00:01:56:12

Cullen

Mean, yeah, like let's perhaps go into like what was done, what was actually planned and Yeah, yeah. And then how that shaped out due to the actual prep work.

00:01:56:12 - 00:01:57:21

Clark

Actual real world. Yeah.

00:01:58:04 - 00:02:14:08

Cullen

Yeah. So I mean, basically we had scenes 2 to 11 to shoot and many of those scenes were just transitional or just tiny moments, one or two shots. And how many pages had it roughly? I'd say about 12 pages. So it's.

00:02:14:12 - 00:02:15:04

Clark

I mean a.

00:02:15:08 - 00:02:40:06

Cullen

Huge chunk. Yeah. So the reason that I kind of overloaded it and, you know, knew that I was overscheduling was just because everything is so local that I've got days set aside in case reshoots had to happen and things like that. But you know as I'll get into I think very much owing to all the prep work, it actually went really, really smoothly.

00:02:40:06 - 00:02:47:05

Cullen

We got pretty much everything we wanted to get done, actually, not even pretty much literally everything we wanted to get done.

00:02:47:06 - 00:02:49:09

Clark

Okay, great. Made your day good with.

00:02:49:09 - 00:03:05:03

Cullen

Time to spare. We had we were about a half hour below or ahead of schedule, which was very, very surprising to me. So and never felt like it was rushing, ever felt like there was anything that was like going haywire or that I had to like.

00:03:05:16 - 00:03:07:13

Clark

Right. You know, no stress, sacrifice.

00:03:07:13 - 00:03:15:01

Cullen

Quality for speed or something like that. Like it was always really, you know, every shot that we got, we I did until I got it.

00:03:15:02 - 00:03:15:19

Clark

Into, we got.

00:03:15:19 - 00:03:23:02

Cullen

It, we retook and stuff like that and yeah, set up and it wasn't, yeah, it wasn't this massive chaos that so.

00:03:23:12 - 00:03:46:17

Clark

So things went smoothly. You had, you had a lot to shoot but you got it done and you feel good about all the footage that you got. Mm hmm. I want to ask, you know, because I don't hear and, you know, periodically you'll hear a director talk about how they begin their very first day of shooting. I'm always curious because I think it makes I think it's a huge deal.

00:03:46:17 - 00:04:06:04

Clark

I think that it makes a big difference how a director rallies the troops and kicks off that very first day of shooting. I know, you know, some directors have kind of a ritual that they go through. Others don't make a big deal about it. And it's just kind of like, okay, let's let's just start. You know, they don't really make a scene.

00:04:06:09 - 00:04:21:00

Clark

I'm curious, you know, how and I know that you have a preexisting relationship with most not all of the people that you're working with. And it's a relatively small cast and crew, but still still important. How did you start your very first day of shooting?

00:04:21:22 - 00:04:35:10

Cullen

Very casually, not, you know, again, both owing to a few things. One of the things was that one of the people was a little bit late. So for a lot of setup, it was actually just me. And essentially with my first A.D..

00:04:35:16 - 00:04:37:08

Clark

You're not going to say any names, are you?

00:04:37:09 - 00:04:56:11

Cullen

No, it's okay. They got the strap now. Yeah. Yeah. So it was just, you know, for the first a little bit of setup, It was actually. Yeah, just for a while. Just me and the first A.D. kind of hanging out, setting up the equipment, really casual. And then the actors were all called at different times as well. Yeah.

00:04:56:15 - 00:05:17:22

Cullen

So there wasn't really a big like moment where everyone had arrived and, you know, I did like a speech or something like that, like it was very much, you know, when people arrived. My priority is to make them comfortable and to give them space to prepare themselves. So, yeah, you know, when the first actor arrived who plays the main character, we were still sort of setting up some of the dollies and stuff like that.

00:05:17:22 - 00:05:32:23

Cullen

And so I sort of said, you know, if you want to head inside, get a drink of water and just kind of like run over some lines and just relax for a bit. We'll come in and get you when we're ready. Yeah. And even when the second actor arrived, it was the same thing. Like, I was just kind of like, you know, make yourself comfortable.

00:05:32:23 - 00:05:49:00

Cullen

Yeah, Relax. You know, because I think that's a big thing is that people, they wake up in the morning, they're all hyped up. They get in their car, they drive, they're still all hyped up and they kind of get to set and sometimes they're just forced to jump into it. They don't really have a time to just kind of sit back and relax and get their nerves down.

00:05:49:00 - 00:06:11:00

Cullen

Or even if they don't have nerves, just at least get kind of their head straight. Yeah. So that's kind of like rather than making a huge deal about anything, I think that's kind of what I tried to do. I would say that the beginning of shooting, like the grand kind of perhaps, you know, ritual, so to say, was actually during the prep when we did the Equipment Day, because that was the first day that everyone had been together.

00:06:11:20 - 00:06:32:03

Cullen

So that day I definitely sort of made a bigger deal about like, all right, here's like what the goals are, Here's what we're going to be doing. Here's kind of, you know, the breakdown of like how that's going to run, things like that. But again, owing to prep work, that was a really handy thing to have had to have gotten out of the way prior to our first shoot day, because then we could just kind of get into it.

00:06:32:03 - 00:06:48:23

Cullen

So not necessarily a matter of like people showing up and just kind of going, Oh, all right, let's get it. Still having, you know, a moment of conversation in the moment to give the actors to kind of sit around, decompress and yeah, I mean, relax for a little bit and get in their headspace.

00:06:49:04 - 00:07:09:23

Clark

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that there's a there's a million different ways you can do it, right? And I think, like, everybody's got their own way. But I do think it's important. Yeah. That it's kind of that in some way you kind of allow for a transition from like real world. Yeah. To like, okay, now we are, now we're in this other thing.

00:07:09:23 - 00:07:27:11

Clark

Like now we're making a movie. We are entering into a world of imagination and this is a place where we play at work, but this is where we're, you know, especially for actors, where they're allowed to kind of transition from real world to. Okay.

00:07:27:17 - 00:07:28:01

Cullen

Mm hmm.

00:07:28:04 - 00:07:28:22

Clark

Movie world.

00:07:29:02 - 00:07:30:00

Cullen

I'm in the headspace.

00:07:30:00 - 00:07:56:13

Clark

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay. Okay. So you kind of casually went into that. Let's talk about you know, I know you did a lot of prep. You did a lot of rehearsals with your actors in the day that you shot. I mean, it sounds like things went great. So I'm assuming that that rehearsal really paid off, but maybe you can kind of tell us a little bit about how how do you feel like the rehearsals impacted that first day of shooting?

00:07:56:22 - 00:08:14:18

Cullen

Well, I mean, again, because I had my so I guess I'll break it into two things, performance and visual and, you know, I'll go in the opposite. I'll go visual first because I had my viewfinder at the rehearsals. I was able to again, as we discussed the last time we did this, was I was able to alter shots.

00:08:14:18 - 00:08:29:18

Cullen

I was able to simplify scenes and kind of like cut things out of the short list that I realized were necessary just because I had my viewfinder there and I was able to kind of go, okay, I can actually get this scene from here. And then and not to worry about that other shot, you know, it becomes irrelevant.

00:08:30:00 - 00:08:43:23

Cullen

Yeah. And so it was really handy for that because then when I got on set, I was able to put the camera in the spot where I knew it had to be. And there was no surprise. It wasn't like suddenly when the actors crossed, oh, you know, that that suddenly shifted that element to the scene. And I can't do that.

00:08:43:23 - 00:08:59:22

Cullen

I've got to figure out another shot because I had already shot it all in my head when I had the viewfinder, which again was infinitely handy. So that was kind of the visual side of it. I also knew again, I'd done lighting tests and camera tests extensively just by myself beforehand, so I knew how I was going to light the scene.

00:09:00:23 - 00:09:15:05

Cullen

You know, I remember even one of the actors, the actor who I actually know the least kind of said, like, I wish all film sets were sufficient because it was it was literally like they got there and all the lights were set up. I hardly had to worry about adjusting light for the actors. If I did adjust light between shots.

00:09:15:05 - 00:09:34:10

Cullen

It was just a very minor like minute of just going, okay, I'm actually going to put the light a little bit lower because there's there's too much shadow under the eyes or something like that. So there was nothing that was like actors getting to your spots. Now we're going to take half an hour to light and then then we'll go like it was very, very, you know, my priority was efficiency.

00:09:34:10 - 00:09:42:22

Cullen

And so to me, that just means balancing high quality, but also not taking so much time to do something that people's energy just drops off.

00:09:43:00 - 00:09:43:09

Clark

Right.

00:09:43:22 - 00:10:04:23

Cullen

And so that also really got into, I think, performances because I didn't like there wasn't between takes, you know, it was really low taking out. I think we average about three or four takes per shot. Okay. And in the dialog. And the reason for that was because I was able to, you know, the first two takes, let's say we're kind of warming up to it and trying things out.

00:10:04:23 - 00:10:16:06

Cullen

And then the third take, I was able to sort of say like, remember when we did this in the rehearsal, we sort of tried it this way and they would go, Yeah, because the rehearsal is only two weeks ago. So they had that completely, you know, in the back of their heads and they were like, Oh yeah, totally.

00:10:16:06 - 00:10:37:04

Cullen

Let's try that way. And so we could kind of I could just kind of pull that out at any moment without having to go, okay, let's break for 10 minutes. Why? I sit down with the actors and we go through this, right? We'd already done all that work. So there was no need to, again, slow everything down by by discussing, you know, like, what are we feeling in this scene?

00:10:37:04 - 00:10:48:14

Cullen

How how do you like that? And, you know, like, maybe let's try it this way, because we'd already gone through so many different ways of doing the scene in the rehearsal that we'd all kind of agreed on. That really works.

00:10:48:14 - 00:10:51:20

Clark

We landed on the performances in your rehearsals pretty solidly. Yeah.

00:10:51:20 - 00:11:12:05

Cullen

So, so it was really, really easy to again, to allow me to just kind of like run through the scene and maybe I'd have a few notes about timing or just like slight notes about blocking or positioning or something like that. But as far as the performances, like my only really performance notes were just like, really, you know, let's accentuate that line a little bit more.

00:11:12:05 - 00:11:25:09

Cullen

Let's let's, you know, emphasize that part because they've got to really work. And the look that you're giving works really well. So but never anything really expansive or like it. You know, this has to completely be reworked because the prep was already done.

00:11:25:09 - 00:11:53:21

Clark

You had found it. So okay, so it sounds like that your rehearsal really translated Absolutely. To actual performances. Sounds like it was really helpful to be able to refer back to that. You could kind of if an actor was was not quite hitting it the way you wanted it, you could kind of say, Hey, take your mind back to when we did X, Y, Z in the rehearsal and you had like a place to point to, to guide them back to as opposed to kind of having to try to find it out and nothing.

00:11:54:04 - 00:12:12:02

Cullen

And they're all super, you know, again, super versatile, communicable to actors. Yeah yeah. That like what's really great about working with the people that I was working with and I think any director will say that that's kind of the best type is that it's never like you're doing it wrong. It's always just kind of like, let's shift that moment.

00:12:12:02 - 00:12:28:14

Cullen

Like even something is as far as, you know, put a bigger pause between those two lines. Can, can change the emotion of it because maybe then rather than saying the second line, you know, in more of a yelling voice because that pauses now introduced you say it in much a much quieter tone. So things like that where.

00:12:28:14 - 00:12:49:23

Clark

It just sounds like technical, just really kind of little technical tweaks on kind of things. Yeah. And so it sounds like to that you it helped you remain really efficient. Not a lot of set up time between not a lot of time between setups because you had to already preplan, lighting and refresh my memory. Now, did you do rehearsals?

00:12:49:23 - 00:12:51:19

Clark

You didn't do rehearsals in the space.

00:12:51:21 - 00:12:54:02

Cullen

No, no. The rehearsals were done in a studio space.

00:12:54:02 - 00:12:58:10

Clark

So did you find that your lighting setups and things translated to the actual.

00:12:58:10 - 00:13:25:02

Cullen

I actually didn't light the rehearsals at all. So the the spaces that I had actually been in the first shot was actually one of the scenes was actually a shot in my kitchen. So I had the advantage of, you know, being able to light that whenever I want. And then the other scenes I'd just done kind of extensive scouting and taking my camera there because those scenes were outdoors, taking my camera there and gotten kind of variations of like, okay, this is what it will look like over class.

00:13:25:03 - 00:13:38:13

Cullen

This is what I look like when it's sunny. This is what it look like. If it's, you know, depending on the time of day and was able to actually get kind of what's the best time for us to be there, both in lighting wise, but also in terms of like how busy is the place at different times of day?

00:13:39:05 - 00:13:46:23

Cullen

And so so in terms of lighting, I also, you know, as as I think we've kind of talked about a lot, I light really simply.

00:13:47:06 - 00:13:47:13

Clark

Okay.

00:13:47:21 - 00:14:08:07

Cullen

You know, I kind of try and take the Carnegie Hall approach to things, which is just like have one sort of master light that influences all the other lighting. So if you want to change it, you just balance as opposed to setting up a whole new light that tends to and also really taking cues from the natural lighting of the space.

00:14:08:07 - 00:14:34:14

Cullen

That's kind of where I run from. So because I was so familiar with the space and the lighting in the space, I didn't have to wear as I am. Thankfully, with literally every location we're doing, even the ones that I don't own and, you know, am renting, I'm still already familiar with them. So again, that's such an advantage when it comes to lighting that I know what works and what doesn't work because I've done camera tests in those locations and I know gotcha.

00:14:34:17 - 00:14:42:16

Cullen

That that, hey, I don't even need to position a light there because that wall actually just bounces the sunlight really nicely. And, you know, so really, you.

00:14:42:16 - 00:15:03:07

Clark

Know, again, you even know you didn't. Yeah, I gotcha. So even though you didn't rehearse in the space, you were super familiar with the space and you keep your kit simple and just to what you need. And so okay, so, so then with your, with your shot list that you kind of it sounds like you honed that in your rehearsal.

00:15:03:23 - 00:15:10:02

Clark

Did you find that that translated basically 1 to 1? Did you find that you had to kind of adapt at all or.

00:15:10:10 - 00:15:27:17

Cullen

I'd say 99% of the shots were exact as they are in the shot list. The again, and that was another thing that the rehearsals came, as I mentioned, super in handy for it was that the list did change when I was starting to block with the actors because I was able to go. We don't actually need X, Y, Z.

00:15:28:17 - 00:15:47:21

Cullen

I can just shift the camera over here and get all of that in one, you know, perhaps one master or something like that. Yeah. So there were some shots on set that I that I even then I realized like, oh, I actually don't really need, I can't really recall exactly at the moment what what they were, but a few times, yeah.

00:15:47:21 - 00:16:09:12

Cullen

We crossed a few things off just because I realized that it was just, it was tertiary. It didn't really it wasn't there for something to cut to and but then on the other hand, there were also shots that we did get that I didn't use. Yeah. You know, some, some especially when we were outside in the location that I couldn't really control in that it wasn't a location that we had like rented, it was just a parking lot.

00:16:09:12 - 00:16:26:08

Cullen

So at any time somebody could come ask us to leave there. I was a lot more careful about getting pretty much everything I could possibly think I needed so that in the event someone asked us to leave or in the event that, you know, something doesn't work, we don't have to go back there and reshoot anything because I've got such a wide variety of stuff to choose from.

00:16:26:12 - 00:16:32:00

Cullen

But even then in the edit, I wound up only using like two shots from those locations of perhaps the four or five that we did shoot.

00:16:32:08 - 00:16:32:18

Clark

Gotcha.

00:16:33:17 - 00:16:49:19

Cullen

So yeah, there was definitely the short list. Again, you know, I'm a big believer in short lists. I think that the night and day between when I used to make movies without shortlists, you know, like I think the last movie I probably made without a shortlist was the one I did for the Werner Herzog Masterclass.

00:16:49:21 - 00:16:50:06

Clark

Right?

00:16:50:11 - 00:17:04:14

Cullen

And I remember like so many times there be a moment where somebody would walk out of a room and that or there'd be like an action and I'd be like, I just need something to cut to between that because those two shots don't cut together. Like, I just need, I need an insert of something or I need something in between there.

00:17:04:14 - 00:17:22:04

Cullen

And it always was just so frustrating to get to the edit and be like, Dammit, those shots don't cut. And then I think the movie, I did it about a year after that, which was kind of like the first large scale short film I'd say I'd ever done, which, you know, took place over a few months. And, and shooting was a while.

00:17:22:06 - 00:17:38:20

Cullen

It was about half an hour long. That was the first time ever I'd ever used a short list. And again, it was such a night and day between, you know, getting to the edit and having everything and not having to be like, Oh, did I get that shot? Did I, you know, forget that because I'm literally just sitting and checking off.

00:17:38:20 - 00:17:55:16

Cullen

Well, I'm not. The first aid is literally sitting there checking off. And in addition to that, like the first lady, Adam has been really helpful because he also writes which takes or the best or like he'll like make a note in a column of every take and sort of say like, this one was good at this point, not so good for the ending.

00:17:56:08 - 00:18:13:23

Cullen

There was a mike issue in this one. There was, you know, so I can actually look at when I'm cutting together and when I'm sinking audio when I'm choosing which shots to take and use. I'm looking at this not only the shot list, but I'm looking at his kind of graph of which takes in these shots. Worked and which takes didn't work.

00:18:13:23 - 00:18:28:02

Cullen

So everything was just again, like I think the thing is, it sounds like so much to do, and this is one of the things that I it's funny enough, I actually spent the last week teaching a class as well four and a half hours a day, which was quite a lot of work to do to kind of come home from that and have to edit.

00:18:28:02 - 00:18:41:04

Cullen

But one of the things that I said to them is I actually showed them the production binder, like the kind of the production bible I have. And I was like, It looks like there's a lot in here. It looks like this is a ton of work, but it's really not, you know, it's really a lot of it's just common sense.

00:18:41:04 - 00:18:56:08

Cullen

And so when I talk about, you know, yeah, the first lady writing down the takes that work, it's like that seems like an extra step to have to take. But it's really not because I think everyone sort of looks at each other anyway at the end of a good take and says, That's a good one. Yeah, why not just write it down.

00:18:56:08 - 00:18:57:00

Cullen

Yeah, it's a yeah.

00:18:57:01 - 00:19:18:09

Clark

Organization is so key and it, you know, it's, it's easy to get wrapped up in it's especially if you're running behind and that's where preparation helps on so many fronts because it is kind of a cascade effect. Right. And you get on set, you're not well prepared or you start to get behind schedule. Then you start making shortcuts that are going to cost you so much later.

00:19:19:09 - 00:19:30:07

Clark

And these things don't take a lot of additional time. But when you feel rushed or you feel kind of stressed or if you're tired, you're kind of pushed to the limit, these things often start to fall to the side and get lost.

00:19:30:07 - 00:19:30:21

Cullen

Yeah, yeah.

00:19:30:21 - 00:19:49:08

Clark

And then they can be so helpful. So, so helpful. And you're right, it just it's just like an extra second and it's going to save you so much time in editing, especially now. I mean, it sounds like you didn't shoot a lot of coverage, extra stuff. You didn't do a ton of takes. So not huge, but but still a big time saver.

00:19:49:08 - 00:19:59:13

Clark

And especially on a if you did have a lot of coverage, if you did do a lot of takes, oh my gosh. To go through all of that without any kind of indication as to what you felt, you know, in the moment.

00:19:59:18 - 00:20:00:15

Cullen

But yeah, or.

00:20:00:22 - 00:20:20:08

Clark

That you're starting from scratch. So so I mean, what sounds like all the way around the the the all the pre-production planning that you did really helped make this a super efficient, super productive shoot. You got 12 pages in a day and you're happy with what you got.

00:20:20:08 - 00:20:36:07

Cullen

And I think that that's the funny thing too, is that like when I if I were to describe someone beforehand, it's like, Hey, I'm shooting a feature. I've got literally three crew, three actors, and we're going to do 12 pages in a day. I think that that would be one of those things that people would go, Yeah, good luck.

00:20:36:20 - 00:21:01:15

Cullen

I would too. You know, I again had planned to I had set aside time to do reshoots for the day or like an overspill day in, Kate, because I didn't think that we'd be able to get it. But again, it was I think that and this isn't only just it's a testament to the pre-production, I think is just that yeah, the more you prepare people I think, overthink and I think a big thing that a lot of people do too is panic.

00:21:01:19 - 00:21:20:07

Cullen

Like you said, they start going, Oh, we don't have time, we don't have time. And they start so they start cutting corners and then you know, maybe the quality isn't there or yeah, even you just miss a shot or something. And it's like that just winds up costing you more time in the long run because you're going to have to either go back and fix it.

00:21:20:07 - 00:21:22:04

Clark

Or the film will suffer.

00:21:22:04 - 00:21:22:09

Cullen

Because.

00:21:22:17 - 00:21:36:20

Clark

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so it sounds like I mean, it sounds like a lot of stuff went right and I'm excited to see the footage. Did anything go wrong and did you learn anything and would you change anything about, Yeah, your first day on the job here.

00:21:37:13 - 00:21:42:05

Cullen

I would say that the closest thing to going wrong was just the one sound guy turning up late.

00:21:42:11 - 00:21:44:07

Clark

But that was Guy, whoever you are.

00:21:44:07 - 00:21:47:22

Cullen

Yeah, get it. But no, I wasn't. I wasn't angry, and I.

00:21:47:22 - 00:21:51:05

Clark

Just get it. I just get it. Lester bustin chops here, just in case.

00:21:51:07 - 00:21:56:02

Cullen

I'm saving my image. Because I actually was. You know, I was furious, but.

00:21:56:12 - 00:21:58:04

Clark

Right. I can just imagine.

00:21:58:04 - 00:21:59:14

Cullen

Yeah, I've heard rumors.

00:21:59:14 - 00:22:00:08

Clark

I've heard rumors.

00:22:00:10 - 00:22:18:07

Cullen

Colin There's a perfect example of just being able to, like, snap into another thing, which is just that, ah, you know, the sound guy was like, okay, sorry. You know, slip through my line. I'll be there as soon as I can. Right? And I was like, That's totally fine, because we'll just get there was a bunch of shots that we were going get that were Mos anyway, which is his motor only shot, or you know, without sound.

00:22:20:03 - 00:22:37:22

Cullen

And so we were just like, Let's just get those, you know, we'll just ship those ahead in the schedule and we'll get we'll get all those shots and literally, as we got done with those shots, he was there. So the timing worked out perfectly. And again, like a lot of these things are circumstantial. You know, will that timing always work out as perfectly as I did?

00:22:37:22 - 00:22:46:01

Cullen

No, But I think that's again, also why it's like, don't panic, just just kind of go with the flow of things. And yeah.

00:22:46:10 - 00:22:48:22

Clark

You keep your cool. Keep your cool. Yeah.

00:22:48:22 - 00:23:11:06

Cullen

And again had I which I would never do but had I like freaked out at him and been like, Oh, all right, you're not here for my shoot. And it's, you know, that would just totally kill the mood the whole day. I think that that's a tough balance. It it worked on a set before you know that the people who like get angry or have really short tempers, they just can kind of kill a whole shoot because it's just kind of like, I'm not enjoying this at all.

00:23:11:06 - 00:23:12:19

Cullen

And yeah, am I doing here?

00:23:12:22 - 00:23:49:11

Clark

Yeah, yeah. It could be a fine line, you know, it'd be a fine line. And I it's, it's sometimes can be difficult. Yeah. And you know, you often on a film set there are, you know people of passionate personalities and things can sometimes be challenging. But yes, it's always for the best If you can maintain diplomacy, professionalism, courteous and this absolutely this like this, this kind of romanticized idea of, you know, of actors or directors or just artist in general that are kind of like, you know, like off the hook and wild and kind of being ridiculous.

00:23:49:11 - 00:23:51:23

Clark

It's just in the real world that just doesn't fly.

00:23:52:06 - 00:23:57:20

Cullen

No, no, no. It's it. And when people attempt it, it definitely doesn't fly and it just ruins things.

00:23:57:23 - 00:23:58:11

Clark

Yeah.

00:23:58:21 - 00:24:05:13

Cullen

Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, again, I to me it was like the embarrassment of sleeping through your alarm is usually enough.

00:24:05:18 - 00:24:06:13

Clark

It's usually not.

00:24:06:13 - 00:24:10:12

Cullen

Again, I'm not going to, I'm not going to make the person feel bad, you know?

00:24:10:13 - 00:24:44:18

Clark

And, you know, a lot of times you can do fun things. I mean, I've heard I've heard stories where you know, if a professional sets even, you know, like big time professional sets, where where, you know, if somebody makes the mistake of having their phone and it goes off, you know, within kind of the you know, the the the zone of the camera, that they, you know, kind of do like slightly hazy but also funny, you know, like people will show up with t shirts that are like, you know, making fun of the person whose alarm that went off or, you know, or if somebody falls asleep on set, you know, they'll like take a

00:24:44:18 - 00:25:00:21

Clark

funny picture of them and they'll have a little, like, bored of shame. You can make it. You can make it fun. And obviously you have to be very careful. I'm not suggesting that it's appropriate that you like, hey, somebody in a in a in a way that is going to be misconstrued as as malicious. I don't think that's appropriate.

00:25:00:21 - 00:25:15:07

Clark

But I mean, there are there are kind of fun ways that you can have a sense of humor about these things. We're all human. We all make mistakes. And so you never want to be so harsh on somebody, you know, because like, look, eventually you're going to make a mistake, too. And then, you know, how would you want to be treated?

00:25:15:07 - 00:25:27:18

Clark

So. Right. You know, it again, it's like I always used to like when I was younger, I used to think, well, you know, the only thing that matters is the film. And it's like nothing else matters. And it's like you just you get the film done and everything is a sacrifice for that. And like, you know, who cares about anything else?

00:25:28:02 - 00:25:47:18

Clark

And I couldn't have a more different perspective now. I mean, I yeah, you know, I don't feel like the ends justify the means as some people out there might think that's horrible. But, you know, as much as I love film, I don't think it's appropriate to sacrifice people and their well-being for a film. I don't think it's necessary and I don't think it's called for.

00:25:47:18 - 00:25:48:21

Clark

So that's I mean.

00:25:49:08 - 00:26:13:05

Cullen

There were other other things, too, that that, you know, I was actually supposed to have two additional people there to just help out that the person who did sound was actually not the sound person, but the sound person was away at the moment, which I knew in advance. So I was able to kind of shift that around. But then there was another person there that was kind of going to act as a grip who wasn't able to be there.

00:26:14:06 - 00:26:35:23

Cullen

But again, as I mentioned, because of the prep and because I intentionally kind of overbooked everything so that I would have the ability to shift things around like that, It yeah, it wound up not even being like a speedbump. It was, it was just like, yeah, okay, plan for that and adjust it with plan B And so yeah.

00:26:36:02 - 00:26:55:10

Cullen

And the other I mean in terms of larger scale things going wrong too, we were supposed to actually shoot this part. So it was the first two Sundays ago was our first shoot and then this past Sunday it was supposed to be the race. It was one Sunday ago. This Sunday was supposed to be our second shoot, but I had to shift that to next Sunday because of the rain.

00:26:56:07 - 00:27:13:05

Cullen

But even then, because of the prep work and stuff like that, I was like, Well, we actually wound up shooting one of the scenes I had rewritten very last minute. The scene that was supposed to be shot this coming Sunday to fit it into the day of last Sunday. So our first shoot day and it actually wound up working way better.

00:27:13:05 - 00:27:29:16

Cullen

I think the scene works way better on its own. And that was actually just because I couldn't find a location for it. I couldn't find the interior that we needed. I just couldn't get there was nowhere available to rent it out. Yeah. And so I rewrote it to be an exterior and that's why it we shot it last Sunday.

00:27:30:15 - 00:27:50:13

Cullen

But because of the rain that it's this past Sunday, I was actually just able to shift that shoot to the day that we would have done that interior. So again, like just knowing the prep work and knowing people's availability, D has been, you know, unbelievably useful because I've just been able to shift things around like that and sort of be like, okay.

00:27:50:19 - 00:27:51:20

Clark

It gives me, hey, we.

00:27:51:20 - 00:27:53:12

Cullen

Can just take that sun and use it for that.

00:27:53:12 - 00:28:11:09

Clark

So planning and preparation will give you the give you the freedom to empower you, I guess is maybe a better way to say it to to be able to do those kind of things. Yeah exactly. Yeah. Well that's I mean, any other like parting final kind of thoughts? I mean, it's. I'm excited for you, man. It sounds like things are going really well.

00:28:11:09 - 00:28:18:07

Clark

I hope that. That we can find a way to share the results of all of your work.

00:28:18:17 - 00:28:41:03

Cullen

I mean, yeah, Yeah. Once I start, I've got for some of the shoots, I'll have like a beats videographer there that I'm going to start putting up for our production diaries. Yeah. I mean, I guess one parting thing is that even though I, you know, you should always expect things to go wrong and plan for the worst, one thing that feels very good to me is logistically, that first day was the hardest.

00:28:42:01 - 00:28:58:23

Cullen

And so knowing that now we've no longer got any locations that we're not fully in control of is a great feeling. And that even even though I don't feel like we rushed, there's no longer that pressure of like, you know we can't spend all day here.

00:28:59:07 - 00:28:59:16

Clark

Yeah.

00:28:59:16 - 00:29:15:21

Cullen

So yeah, yeah. I'm definitely looking forward to the rest of it again. I'm, I'm anticipating anything that might go awry. But as of right now, it's, it's smooth sailing and, you know, perhaps in a month I'll look back on this and be like, you naive son of a bitch.

00:29:17:07 - 00:29:24:00

Clark

And you've got it. So just to be clear, you've got you've got nine more shoot days left. Correct? Or. Yeah, okay.

00:29:24:00 - 00:29:27:03

Cullen

Next hour or ninth is or second is coming up. So nine. Yeah.

00:29:27:03 - 00:29:34:17

Clark

And you're shooting pretty much primarily on weekends, correct. So you'll be shooting over the course of the next two months or so roughly. Yeah.

00:29:34:17 - 00:29:38:15

Cullen

Our last I think we wrapped production just mid-August, so. Okay. Yeah.

00:29:38:22 - 00:30:01:09

Clark

Awesome. Well, it'll be fun to get some periodic updates from you and and not that I want anything dramatic to happen, but when it does, at least you'll have the silver lining of being able to have a story for us here. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. All right, colored. Well, thanks for taking the time to share some of your experience with us and everybody out there.

00:30:01:09 - 00:30:06:14

Clark

Thanks for taking the time to listen. We will see you all next time. Until then, take care.

00:30:06:14 - 00:30:08:20

Cullen

Bye bye.

Episode - 042 - Robocop

Clark

Hello and welcome everyone to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. Episode 42. I'm Clark Coffey and with me as always is Mr. Cullen McFater. What's up, buddy?

00:00:21:08 - 00:00:21:22

Cullen

Howdy.

00:00:22:05 - 00:00:26:17

Clark

It must that your mustache is looking. I wish that we did video along with this audio because.

00:00:26:18 - 00:00:28:09

Cullen

Oh yeah. One day. One day you.

00:00:28:09 - 00:00:52:02

Clark

Are rushing it. You are crushing it. I have mustache envy. I. I wish that I could grow a mustache like that. I was actually revisiting. We're going to take a quick digression here. This is not what this episode is about, but I had watched Tombstone recently, which is one of my favorite. Oh, yeah. From my childhood. And the reason I was watching Tombstone was because I had recently watched Val Kilmer's documentary Val.

00:00:52:05 - 00:00:52:23

Cullen

Me as well. Yeah.

00:00:53:02 - 00:01:10:17

Clark

Which I really enjoyed and you know, again, I don't want to get too far off our pass here, but I really enjoyed the film. It reminded me how much I enjoyed a lot of Val's work. So I was watching Tombstone and I was just like, I have never seen a better mustache in my life than Kurt Russell's mustache in that film.

00:01:10:17 - 00:01:32:17

Clark

Oh, it's so good. Is it even real? I'm like, How can a mustache be that real? Like that thick and full? And I'm like, I just have mustache envy. Of course, nobody there would know unless you knew me personally, because this is audio. But I just am, like, really lacking in the facial hair department. I just do not have good facial hair, and I feel a little bit sad for that.

00:01:32:17 - 00:01:35:09

Cullen

But what was that? You did a sketch once about the spray on Beard.

00:01:37:01 - 00:02:02:01

Clark

He Yeah, that's a good one. I remember. I did. Yeah, I did. He's referring to colors. Referring to. I did like a short film, like just a sketch basically, of on like a fake commercial for a product that I had named Insta Beard, which was a spray on beard and Yeah, and yes, that, that was the inspiration for that was that I was sad that I can't really grow a beard or a mustache.

00:02:02:01 - 00:02:12:07

Clark

So anyway. All right, but on to what this podcast is actually about and that is Paul Verhoeven's 1987 film RoboCop.

00:02:12:19 - 00:02:13:10

Cullen

Which yes.

00:02:13:10 - 00:02:22:21

Clark

Which was picked by Coen. And I'm excited that you did because I am a big fan of the genre films, of which this is definitely one of them.

00:02:22:22 - 00:02:30:00

Cullen

Oh, totally. And that summer, it's actually interesting because you read the release of this movie. It was like that summer was just filled with genre films.

00:02:30:06 - 00:02:31:08

Clark

Yeah, well, and I.

00:02:31:08 - 00:02:50:22

Cullen

Mean, I you read some of that stuff again. You go on an aside just for a second. Yeah. The entry I have, I mean, even for myself as a kid and it's like you, you, you read back on summers that had just like hit after hit after hit after hit and you imagine being able to go to the movie theaters every weekend and see something just incredible and fantastic.

00:02:50:22 - 00:02:56:07

Cullen

And and, you know, it really makes you makes you yearn.

00:02:56:07 - 00:03:18:19

Clark

I know, huh? Well, I mean, so I'm old enough that I actually did see RoboCop in the theater. I saw it on a initial theatrical release. Now, I was only 11. And that's a, you know, a topic for another time. Should an 11 year old have been allowed to go to it, been admitted out? Of course, technically I shouldn't have because it was a rated R film.

00:03:18:19 - 00:03:32:01

Clark

And I think that's 17 in the United States. Right. And so I technically shouldn't have, but I very specifically remember actually getting admission into that movie with a children's ticket. So. So there you go.

00:03:32:13 - 00:03:37:16

Cullen

Yeah, I, I also was old enough to see this in theaters but last weekend. So.

00:03:37:20 - 00:03:39:02

Clark

Yeah, well, that's.

00:03:39:10 - 00:03:57:23

Cullen

No, I it was actually funny cause I chose this before I knew that I was going to get the chance to see it in theaters. And then I, my a friend of mine was just kind of like browsing local. There's a lot of really great independent theaters that are just, you know, single screen actors in Toronto that are a do a lot of second run shows and classics and stuff.

00:03:57:23 - 00:04:01:22

Cullen

And they were doing a double feature for free No ticket charge.

00:04:01:22 - 00:04:02:11

Clark

Wow.

00:04:02:21 - 00:04:12:09

Cullen

RoboCop and Manhunter one night. And so I was like, Hey, I hate that for the podcast. I might as well go and see it. And so it was the first time I'd seen this in theaters, and it was really, really great too.

00:04:12:17 - 00:04:12:23

Clark

Yeah.

00:04:13:15 - 00:04:41:01

Cullen

A Be back in the theater. Yeah. Also be able to see, you know, one of my favorite movies. I think that this is pretty high up there. If I was going to list, you know, the movies that I love, I very different than a lot of the other movies that I like. But I think that it's it's just so well done and so, you know, perfectly crafted with such a clear intention that that it would, of course, would get into detail.

00:04:41:01 - 00:05:02:08

Clark

But I mean, it's right up my alley because I, you know, and I am not I mean, look, I love I love all types of film, but, you know, really my my heart is probably most into, you know, the way I would describe it is is a film that punches way above its weight class. You know, this is a a relatively low budget genre film.

00:05:02:08 - 00:05:05:10

Clark

I mean, for crying out loud, it's called RoboCop.

00:05:05:14 - 00:05:24:01

Cullen

Right. It's funny. I always reminds me of, you know, if anyone has played like the Grand Theft Auto Games, that there's always these things in the games that are like fake movies and they do like play a trailer for the fake movie or whatever. So it's this ridiculous title. And RoboCop to me, seems like a movie that would be in that universe.

00:05:24:01 - 00:05:25:01

Clark

That it's like a satire.

00:05:25:04 - 00:05:26:00

Cullen

So ridiculous.

00:05:26:00 - 00:05:48:14

Clark

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But it you know, this movie has no business being good, right? That's on paper. This this movie has no business being a good movie. But it is. And in spite of all of these things, it is fantastic. And it's it's a much better film than it has any right to be. And I absolutely love I mean, those kind of films.

00:05:48:14 - 00:06:10:19

Clark

Maybe it's because I love underdogs. I don't know, but Or maybe it's because it's it's just the way my mind works. And it's, you know, when I imagine sitting down to make a film, this is often the kind of films that I like to make. It's not pretentious. It doesn't take itself too seriously. It revels in what I think makes cinema great, which is Kinetic CISM.

00:06:10:19 - 00:06:36:18

Clark

And yes, even that means violence. Yeah. And and I think it embraces what cinema is, which is visual storytelling and of, you know, sometimes mythic proportions here. And, and I love it. I just love it. So I've always loved RoboCop, but let's talk about that a little more. You know, it's one of the things we always like to jump off it with is kind of our first our first impression or first experiences with the film.

00:06:37:04 - 00:06:56:20

Clark

And so we both saw this film beyond. But of course I saw it in 87 and you saw it much later, but we both saw it about the same age in our lives. So tell us a little bit about, you know, where you were when you saw this film for the first time. If you remember, and it kind of what your impression was, you know, how did you feel about the flick when you first saw it when you were a kid?

00:06:56:20 - 00:07:10:22

Cullen

Yeah, I think I was. I think it was, yeah, 12 or 13, I think in middle school at the time. And it's honestly not an exuberantly interesting story, but I remember seeing I think I either saw it on like AMC or Spike TV.

00:07:10:23 - 00:07:12:00

Clark

Okay, like on TV.

00:07:12:13 - 00:07:17:15

Cullen

They were just playing it and so commercial breaks and all that. And of course I am sure it was censored down.

00:07:17:21 - 00:07:18:07

Clark

Yeah.

00:07:18:10 - 00:07:29:18

Cullen

You know, be allowed for TV. But I just remember being so caught up, especially the music, like, I love, love, love the score for this movie. I think it's it's an.

00:07:30:04 - 00:07:30:19

Clark

Outstanding.

00:07:30:19 - 00:07:50:10

Cullen

Score. It's outstanding and it's bombastic and it's it's like a loud and but it's got such a wonderful theme that, you know, you whistle what you're getting coming out of the theater. But I yeah I, I remember I used to like I just loved this my dad I've spoken a lot about like the movies that my dad used to show me as a kid.

00:07:50:10 - 00:08:12:20

Cullen

And a lot of it was like Hitchcock and kind of like older, older classics like that and things like the sixties and seventies. But he was never really super into, with a few exceptions, like eighties action. So it was something that was kind of a blind spot for me growing up. I never really saw like Predator. I didn't really watch like The Terminator until I was, Oh wow, I got it on Blu ray myself.

00:08:12:20 - 00:08:17:00

Cullen

And so a lot of those like eighties action movies, I kind of missed Rambo and things like that.

00:08:17:00 - 00:08:19:17

Clark

Yeah, those were like, that was like the meat of my diet.

00:08:19:23 - 00:08:40:07

Cullen

Yeah. So that was kind of. Yeah, I was I guess I was ironically seeing a lot from like before then. Um, and you know, again, top Gun is a movie that my dad loved. So I was kind of that was the eighties action movie that I used to watch. I still love Top Gun to this day, but so yeah, I was never really super like into it just by virtue of not having seen a lot of it like that kind of genre.

00:08:40:07 - 00:09:00:17

Cullen

So I remember before I'd seen it, I knew what it was, I'd heard of it, and I always thought again, it was just kind of like, I think seeing it on a poster and just being like, Oh, it's just a stupid be action movie about a robot cop. And then I watched it and it was like this, like funny and punchy and, you know, brilliantly executed and, you know, brilliantly cast.

00:09:00:17 - 00:09:06:20

Cullen

Like, there's no role in the movie. There's nobody that's not giving 110%, but at the same time isn't perfect for the role of.

00:09:07:00 - 00:09:07:15

Clark

The editor.

00:09:08:08 - 00:09:31:10

Cullen

Credited so supremely. And so I used to like play video games after and like play the theme song. I'd be I don't know, I've been playing like GTA or I'd be playing even some like World War Two game. Yeah. And I'd be like shooting the guys, the RoboCop theme and like, it was just such a you know, it was one of those movies that again, what's also funny is that it's not really a movie that like, even though I loved it, it didn't have a ton of influence on me.

00:09:31:10 - 00:09:33:15

Cullen

Like it's not something that I necessarily go.

00:09:33:15 - 00:09:34:07

Clark

You're not going to go out.

00:09:34:08 - 00:09:48:20

Cullen

Say that I Yeah. Or like that. In in my filmmaking, I've never really, like cited RoboCop as something that, you know, is inspiring me to make something. But at the same time, it's a movie that I watch very frequently. I probably watch it once a year and this year.

00:09:48:20 - 00:09:51:12

Clark

Probably rubs off on you on ways, you know, probably, yeah.

00:09:51:12 - 00:10:11:17

Cullen

Exact. And I think the satire, especially in like the way that he handles humor, like I love you know the moment again we kind of discuss this but the the moment in the convenience store when he first is RoboCop and he goes in and the guys like me after me after me, and he's like saying it's like 50 times and it's this really funny, you know, moment of just pure action and insanity.

00:10:11:17 - 00:10:33:00

Cullen

But it it's overlaid with this ridiculous performance by, you know, the robber and stuff like that. And so I think things like that certainly rubbed off on me. And I think that, you know, the the style of that also has rubbed off in a lot of it. Like I see, weirdly enough, like a lot of especially Edgar Wright's earlier movies, like I see a lot of this in those.

00:10:33:00 - 00:10:48:09

Cullen

I see. So there's tons of stuff that I think that I watched, especially as a kid that I just don't think I realized was necessarily connected to this movie. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, it's it's, it's great. I mean, I don't know how else to say it other than the fact that I love it a lot as a kid.

00:10:48:09 - 00:10:54:06

Cullen

And there's love the music and I love the the action and the gore and. Yeah, yeah.

00:10:54:06 - 00:11:19:06

Clark

Well those and that's totally you know, and that's the thing is like films can be enjoyable, you know, it's they don't have to always be this kind of highfalutin, you know, high art kind of thing. And that again, that's, you know, I think sometimes when when a when a filmmaker sets out to make something like on purpose, you're shooting for, you know, for an Oscar or you're shooting to make something really elevated.

00:11:19:06 - 00:11:37:12

Clark

And, you know, there's, you know, a lot of times that can really kind of come back on you and turn out crap. And it does a lot of times. And I see that happen a lot. And, you know, it's the Oscar winners are filled with films like that to me that are frankly dead inside. They're boring. They're dead inside.

00:11:37:12 - 00:11:57:17

Clark

They lack humor. They lack kind of self understanding and self-consciousness, and they take themselves too seriously. And I, you know, in my mind, there's nothing worse than a film that takes itself too seriously. It's just I don't they're boring to me. They're dead inside and this, I think, is filled with fun. It's filled with a sense of humor and.

00:11:57:17 - 00:11:58:09

Cullen

Fear heightened.

00:11:58:11 - 00:12:14:21

Clark

And yeah, so but, you know, at the end, a lot of people feel this way. You know, you don't have to be embarrassed about liking this film. I mean, it was a huge commercial success when it was released in 87, it earned 53 and a half million dollars, which I don't know what inflation would be now for, you know, 35 years later or whatever it is.

00:12:14:21 - 00:12:16:04

Clark

But that's substantially a.

00:12:16:04 - 00:12:17:06

Cullen

Few hundred million probably.

00:12:17:06 - 00:12:36:22

Clark

Yeah, it's it's substantial. On a small budget. It had about 13 and a half million dollar budget, which, you know, even for then was not huge, especially for a science fiction kind of futuristic action movie that was pretty low budget and it even received an Academy Award, I think, for sound design. If I'm not mistaken. Wright was in it for something with sound.

00:12:36:22 - 00:12:37:08

Clark

Yeah.

00:12:37:08 - 00:12:42:04

Cullen

Yeah. Let me. So make sure that we get that right. But yeah, the and if.

00:12:42:04 - 00:12:57:18

Clark

You go back and you look at reviews of the era, you know, yes, there were there were some critics who were, who harped on the violence and yeah, you know, that's always going to be the case. But you know, by and large, for the most part, it was really, you know, critically acclaimed film. It was a surprise hit.

00:12:58:06 - 00:12:59:10

Cullen

Audiences loved it. Yeah.

00:12:59:11 - 00:13:00:08

Clark

Yeah. So.

00:13:00:08 - 00:13:10:14

Cullen

Oh, no, I'll never be apologetic for my love of RoboCop. I was into, I was into like, cosplay or anything like that. Like, or like, you know, one of those, like, goes to conventions and, like, dresses up. I would totally.

00:13:10:14 - 00:13:15:22

Clark

Well, you've got RoboCop. I think that you should, you should do that. And I think you should keep the mustache.

00:13:16:03 - 00:13:16:16

Cullen

Oh yeah, yeah.

00:13:17:01 - 00:13:38:03

Clark

Modern. Modern. Yes, a mustache. RoboCop would be awesome. Obviously, we would. You know, you could just see that mustache pick out, like, right below the visor there. I think that would be fantastic. That's awesome. Well, all right. I mean, so for me, I was close to the same age as you. I mean, now I know exactly how old I was because I saw it at the theater and I know when it was released.

00:13:38:03 - 00:13:58:15

Clark

So I was 11 when I saw this film and I did see it theatrically. And it's interesting, you know, there aren't a ton of films. I mean, I saw films like every week as a kid, you know, or I mean, very, very regularly. That's something that I did as a kid, and I can only remember a handful of films, you know, seeing them in the theater, well, maybe more than a handful, a few handfuls.

00:13:58:15 - 00:14:26:06

Clark

But nonetheless, you know, only a small fraction of the films I saw, I can remember. And I so very vividly specifically remember seeing this film in a theater. And I mean, I can even remember the feeling of how I felt during, you know, for example, when Peter Weller as Murphy before he's turned into RoboCop, is executed by the gang in that warehouse, they abandoned warehouse.

00:14:26:06 - 00:14:53:21

Clark

And how he's, you know, basically just, you know, his hands blown, making arms and going off. He's just, you know, just, you know, shot just, you know, it seems like the scene goes on for 5 minutes. They're just torturing, shooting this guy. And I just remember being floored, just that the film felt so visceral. It felt so I mean, some of it almost was documentary kind of in its execution with, you know, like the you know, where he's he's taken to the E.R. right after that falling.

00:14:53:21 - 00:15:15:11

Clark

Yeah. And it seemed, you know, almost real, as crazy as that seems, you know, even though the violence is very heightened, it it seemed almost real to me. It was I really affected by it. So, yeah, I mean, I really stood out to me. I very vividly remember it and I was pretty much blown away by it. Yeah.

00:15:15:11 - 00:15:23:05

Clark

And then, you know, of course, like from then on after that, I would, you know, occasionally use RoboCop lines in my, you know, dead or alive. You're coming with me.

00:15:23:16 - 00:15:25:06

Cullen

Always great great to quote. Yeah.

00:15:25:10 - 00:15:26:11

Clark

It's so funny.

00:15:26:11 - 00:15:27:13

Cullen

That your dog to go.

00:15:28:22 - 00:15:54:19

Clark

What exactly exactly So so yeah I, I saw it young and I loved it. And of course, you know, every time that come on, you know, TV or something, I'm sure I've seen it, you know, multiple times since then. And then in preparation for this podcast, the latest viewing I saw, Arrow has a new Blu ray release with I don't know that it's a brand new transfer, but it's it's a revised color correction.

00:15:54:19 - 00:16:06:00

Clark

I take a little bit on it, but it's a very nice transfer and a lot of extras, a handful of commentary tracks and things like that. So if you're into the film, Arrow does have a relatively new release and.

00:16:06:09 - 00:16:07:04

Cullen

There is great.

00:16:07:04 - 00:16:22:04

Clark

Yeah yeah I they I don't yeah not to digress too much again but you know they have a channel now that you can subscribe to. So if you love genre films if you love B-movies, boy my goodness, there you went. That's like the the, like the gold pod at the end of the rainbow, right? Yeah, They do.

00:16:22:12 - 00:16:23:14

Cullen

Really great work. Yeah.

00:16:23:22 - 00:16:43:07

Clark

So. All right, well, so let's let's talk a little bit more about the things that jump out at us about this film. You know, one of the things that I learned, I did not know this. I thought this was kind of interesting. So it was written by Edward Neumeier and Michael Miner. But Edward Neumeier, this is interesting. So I'm also a Blade Runner fan.

00:16:43:07 - 00:17:05:05

Clark

I think you probably are too, right? I love Blade Runner. Well, apparently Ed Neumeier was like at the beginning of his career, he was working as like a he was set dressing basically, just like like, you know, on the on the studio lot for Blade Runner. They, you know, they're like trashing the streets and everything. Right. Is this dystopian future?

00:17:05:05 - 00:17:24:14

Clark

Of course. And so he was one of the guys that was just like set dressing, like throwing trash making and throwing fake trash everywhere to dress the set. And he didn't even know what the film was about. And so finally he kind of asked, you know, somebody else, what is this movie about? And he's like, Oh, the crew member he asked kind of pointed to some of the characters, like, Oh, they're robots.

00:17:24:22 - 00:17:40:04

Clark

And he can kind of see that like, you know, there was some kind of police thing going on. And but he's like, in his mind, he's like, this will look like a robot. They just look like people. And of course, he didn't understand kind of the idea that behind the film of replicants, that's the whole point, is that they you can't discern them from humans.

00:17:40:04 - 00:17:58:01

Clark

But at the time he's thinking, Well, that's not a robot. I can make it. I'm going to write a real robot. You know? But he kind of combined that idea of police and robots and future, and the idea of RoboCop kind of came into his mind. So the film is kind of inspired to some extent by Blade Runner, which I thought was pretty interesting.

00:17:58:07 - 00:18:16:05

Cullen

Mm hmm. No, that's really yeah. I mean, it makes sense. Total sense. Sure. Because that was one of the things that we were sort of talking about was that like even in the because this movie is obviously much lower budget than than Blade Runner and relatively low budget for the time anyway. Yeah. And especially for the the scope of the movie.

00:18:16:06 - 00:18:45:10

Cullen

Yeah. That it's not it's not like a dystopian future movie where there's flying cars and and you know androids walking in the street and right big television screens that are in the sides of buildings and stuff it it feels and I think to its benefit very real in its execution like it feels like and again very heightened version of of what what the world was and in some ways very much still is like yeah.

00:18:45:22 - 00:19:08:18

Cullen

And so I think that that again, it really works in its favor like apart from the fact that there's a robotic police officer and there's like the 209 robots and stuff. Mm hmm. That other than that, it really does feel very grounded. Like the police cars are just for Tauruses and which again, you mentioned that they were kind of like this new futuristic car at the time.

00:19:08:18 - 00:19:09:12

Clark

Yeah. Yeah.

00:19:09:12 - 00:19:10:19

Cullen

But at the same time, like, they.

00:19:11:01 - 00:19:11:19

Clark

Were, they were real.

00:19:11:19 - 00:19:24:22

Cullen

Today. That's their real car. And you're like, it's a, it's a Ford Taurus. Yeah. It's not, it's not a flying car. So yeah, I think that the writing and I'm curious to know when it was being written and I don't know if we have an answer for that or if perhaps there's an answer.

00:19:24:22 - 00:19:25:12

Clark

Well, I mean.

00:19:25:22 - 00:19:45:20

Cullen

Blade Runner, if when he was writing it, I wonder if his his budgetary, you know, the thing that he had in mind for budget was larger. Like I wonder if he wanted to go more for the esthetic of a Blade Runner where there was a lot of special effects and you were building up this this like world in this universe of like, you know, big smokestacks and things like that.

00:19:46:00 - 00:20:03:15

Clark

So, yeah, you know, now that now I can't be for sure. This is like speculation on my part and somebody listening. You may have more insight, but you know so he would have been on the Blade Runner set in 82. So obviously this was written between 82 and probably 85, you know, at the latest, because you're in preproduction.

00:20:03:15 - 00:20:23:16

Clark

And the film probably shot in 86, released in 87. So you've got a couple of years there between, you know, he would have been on set, maybe 81 on Blade Runner. So between 81 and 85 or so is when I'm guessing it was written. But, you know, who knows? I mean, I think smart writers probably tend to to not write themselves into huge budgets.

00:20:23:22 - 00:20:24:07

Cullen

Yes.

00:20:24:18 - 00:20:37:04

Clark

Especially if he was kind of that was the beginning of his career. I didn't I hadn't heard in any commentaries or read anywhere or that they had to radically reduce the scope and.

00:20:37:15 - 00:20:42:14

Cullen

The years and even specified in the movie either or at any of that. Like it's just credits that in the near future.

00:20:42:14 - 00:21:07:12

Clark

And they even talk about they talked about how they specifically did that, you know, that they didn't want to date it. They didn't want to put, you know, you know, in 1999, you know, or something like that. But but I'm pretty sure that the television broadcast were a fundamental original part of the script. And the television broke the news broadcast and the commercials, I think, do the heavy lifting of creating the world.

00:21:07:12 - 00:21:27:14

Clark

And it's a totally it's a really brilliant idea. Right. Because, you know, whether it's, you know, the commercial for the 6000 as U.S., this futuristic car, which is a hilarious parody of of American vehicles less so in the in the mid or late eighties and more so in the seventies but that was we were in a transition period.

00:21:27:14 - 00:22:02:14

Clark

They're entering the malaise era of American vehicles but you've got the heart transplant commercial where you get a sense that this is like really common. Right. And it also is interesting in that it it kind of, you know, now we have so many like pharmaceutical companies advertising directly to consumers. And so this kind of was, you know, kind of guessed that that was going to happen a little bit, you know, with this like heart transplant stuff being directly, you know, directly some.

00:22:02:14 - 00:22:03:20

Cullen

Marketing thing marketed.

00:22:03:20 - 00:22:27:02

Clark

To consumers. And it and it's on a lot of little levels. That's fine. I mean because it's also you've got obesity epidemics and so of course, you know the heart thing kind of you know kind of is a little bit little bit and yeah, all this stuff. But but I guess and the news broadcast of course, where we kind of see that the conflict in the world and it's.

00:22:27:04 - 00:22:50:09

Cullen

So it's something that that that Verhoeven uses again in a lot like he does it in and same screenwriter Edward Neumeier in Starship Troopers it's kind of like a staple of his almost at this point. Yeah, But yeah, I think that it's so what I think is hilarious with those news broadcasts especially is that they you could honestly probably cut them into real news broadcasts Yeah.

00:22:50:12 - 00:23:12:21

Cullen

From the diamond today and they would almost seem like proper and I think that's what's so brilliant about the whole movie is that while it's such an overt satire, it's so over-the-top and stuff like that. I think what makes it so brilliant is that a lot of our world is over-the-top, too. Yeah. And so a lot of what you actually see in this and it's like you were sitting there watching it as a movie and you're going, Oh, this is ridiculous.

00:23:12:21 - 00:23:18:04

Cullen

It's hilarious, but it's actually quite pertinent to the way that things run today.

00:23:18:04 - 00:23:41:07

Clark

And it's not that crazy in a way. I mean, it's it's actually not that crazy, which is kind of sad. But yeah, I mean, if you look at commercials, if you take if you kind of like are able to step outside of yourself, get a little objectivity and you take a look at what commercials advertise and you take a look at, you know, the politics and the violence that exist in our world.

00:23:41:07 - 00:23:54:11

Clark

And, of course, you know, the privatization of of law enforcement to some extent. But most like prison. You know, you take a look at the militarization of police force, which is just explode over Reaganism.

00:23:54:11 - 00:23:54:14

Cullen

Yeah.

00:23:54:16 - 00:24:13:01

Clark

And so many of these things. Right. And kind of neo liberalism and the Reagan 80 is and, you know, all of this stuff, you're like, wow, you know, a lot of the things that they were speaking to there. Yeah, it's not that far fetched. It's it's not that much of an exaggeration, you know, And I guess that's kind of the point.

00:24:13:01 - 00:24:31:13

Clark

It's like, how do you how do you satire something that's already outrageous? You really have to take it to extremes. And I think that's what Verhoeven does here. And that's you know, we talked it's interesting, You know, of course, this film had a hard time achieving an R rating. They had to excise some of the violence in order to keep from it having an X rating.

00:24:31:22 - 00:24:52:00

Clark

And and I and you and I were talking about this a little bit before our recording, but it you know, in a way, it's funny, the MPAA actually did them you know, they I think they they did themselves a disservice if they wanted the film to appear less of less violent or disturbing. They should have allowed that violence to remain, because.

00:24:52:03 - 00:25:09:09

Cullen

That's yeah, that's one of the things that Paul Verhoeven himself says. Yes, he's like he was almost like terrified when they were like, Cut this, this, this and this because he was like, It's going to make it to these violent scenes down. Then it's going to seem intentional. Yeah, seem like, like the violence is supposed to be violent and disturbing.

00:25:09:09 - 00:25:09:23

Clark

And it was.

00:25:09:23 - 00:25:28:19

Cullen

Meant to be when it was over the top, when there was a minute straight of the guy getting shot in the boardroom. And and, you know, Murphy's death was so much more violent and things like that. And it was very clearly supposed to be over the top. And it was very clearly a joke. And he was sort of like I was horrified when they're like, cut that down.

00:25:29:18 - 00:25:50:08

Cullen

And I think that that's a big reason. I think there was like, if I'm not correct, too, like censorship of the movie in the UK as well. And that was like a huge issue for him because he was like, no, it's it's the bigger you go, the more clear is that it's a joke. And so I don't actually know if I've ever seen the censor like that that really cut down versions of the movie other than when I first saw it in TV.

00:25:50:13 - 00:26:08:19

Cullen

Yeah, but I don't really remember that. That's not, of course, the version that sticks in my head. So I think that at least to me, it was always very clear that the violence was like over and over the top and, and nuts, because I can't imagine taking it any other way. But I can understand verhoeven's kind of like fear.

00:26:08:19 - 00:26:29:03

Cullen

It's kind of like the same thing that, you know, when Hitchcock released Psycho and people took it seriously, he did an interview, I think, a year later, and he was like, I was horrified to find out that people thought that it was supposed to be serious, right? He was like playing everything so tongue in cheek. But he was like the fact that people watch that movie and thought that it was, you know, supposed to be genuine and grounded and like a drama was was like glorifying it.

00:26:29:03 - 00:26:34:22

Cullen

I think Verhoeven is kind of, you know, speaking the same sort of tune there. Yeah, I'm singing the same tune.

00:26:34:23 - 00:26:55:09

Clark

Well, all I have is my memory of the way I felt when I saw it and I saw the, you know, the censored version. There may be multiple censored versions. I'm not sure if other countries had to censor in different ways, but in the United States, there were a couple of, like you said, the boardroom execution with Ed to old age shooting the executive that was that was cut down.

00:26:55:17 - 00:27:10:17

Clark

And I think there was like a a show where they are executing Mary Murphy, Sara murphy, and and he's shot in the head. I think that was maybe trimmed a little bit, which is a shame because it's a really cool puppet shot.

00:27:11:05 - 00:27:11:21

Cullen

Yeah, it's a.

00:27:12:01 - 00:27:12:14

Clark

Fantastic.

00:27:12:19 - 00:27:13:04

Cullen

Puppet.

00:27:13:06 - 00:27:21:21

Clark

Yeah. Yeah. And it really, really looks amazing. I mean, honestly, if I didn't go as a puppet, I probably could have you know, I probably would have bought it, you know, if I had known before.

00:27:21:21 - 00:27:25:06

Cullen

I didn't know it was, but I bought it the other day when I was talking to the.

00:27:25:07 - 00:27:25:12

Clark

Yeah.

00:27:25:13 - 00:27:28:23

Cullen

It's actually one of the I guess they just attach like a squib to his head or something. Yeah.

00:27:28:23 - 00:27:47:07

Clark

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's really, really well done. But I, but I guess my and also I'm 11 so you have to put it in that context. I see it when I'm 11. I mean I was definitely affected by the violence. I definitely I wasn't silly. I mean, you know, your love and a lot of the humor and satire is going to fly over your head, although I think some of it did land even at 11.

00:27:47:12 - 00:27:57:05

Clark

But I mean, I definitely was affected by the violence. It definitely disturbed me. I remember sitting in the theater and just being like, you know, mouth agape, like, oh, my.

00:27:57:05 - 00:28:14:17

Cullen

Yeah. I remember the one scene that really disturbed me as a kid and that like, really, I was like, Oh my God, was the the boardroom, as I remember with him all like, the guy is innocent and it's just a mistake that he gets shot and they walk out afterwards and they're all just like talking about it. And, you know, they're like my favorite line now in the movie.

00:28:14:17 - 00:28:16:17

Cullen

One of them is like, Oh, that's life in the big city.

00:28:16:19 - 00:28:17:09

Clark

Yeah, that's.

00:28:17:09 - 00:28:18:10

Cullen

Like after that, this guy.

00:28:18:10 - 00:28:20:06

Clark

Is just nonchalant. Yeah. And.

00:28:20:20 - 00:28:31:09

Cullen

And so but I remember as a kid, like that scene, I was like, oh my gosh, like, that guy just died. It'd be in for no reason. There was a mistake and it was like, I remember feeling bags like nobody's helping them and stuff and.

00:28:31:09 - 00:28:59:09

Clark

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Which is the point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but then you have on the flipside though, you know Verhoeven, I mean there's a lot of humor that even even you can get as a kid. Yeah. I mean you've got at 209 who while at the same time as this menacing robot that you know, of course is, is, is humorously deficient, you know, and where you've got him trying to go downstairs, I mean, here is this like this like powerful, you know, menacing makes.

00:28:59:09 - 00:29:01:03

Cullen

The lion roar, noises and.

00:29:01:03 - 00:29:07:22

Clark

All this firepower, but yet it's completely defeated by a flight of stairs. You know, That's hilarious.

00:29:07:23 - 00:29:08:03

Cullen

Oh.

00:29:08:11 - 00:29:10:08

Clark

Yeah. Yeah. So that and.

00:29:10:09 - 00:29:11:16

Cullen

Squealing like a pig as it.

00:29:11:21 - 00:29:17:17

Clark

Squeals like a pig. I mean, this is like Looney Tunes stuff. This is cartoon type violence, you know?

00:29:18:01 - 00:29:32:06

Cullen

And I my favorite thing about the ad to a 92 is that in like a lot of other movies like this, they would be some formidable foe but they apart from the one a little bit when they're in the the like the actual office and it's shooting the rockets at them really don't pose that much of a threat.

00:29:32:06 - 00:29:41:12

Cullen

And that's kind of what I love about it is that they're never really this big, you know, threatening like a machine. It's that they're just always so it's like they're.

00:29:41:18 - 00:29:42:07

Clark

Behind.

00:29:42:17 - 00:29:43:16

Cullen

The people. Exactly.

00:29:43:16 - 00:29:59:01

Clark

And that machine that are menacing and terrible and dangerous. Yeah, the machine itself is kind of really it's a poorly executed. And they even mention it and it's like, this is a piece of crap, but it's going to make us a ton of money. Who cares if it works? I don't care if it works.

00:29:59:01 - 00:30:00:03

Cullen

That's what it says. We've already shipped.

00:30:00:03 - 00:30:07:00

Clark

They're going to sell parts for this for 15 years. It's going to be a you know, it's going to be a cash cow for a couple of decades.

00:30:07:00 - 00:30:28:05

Cullen

You know, that's the point, is that that's why it kills the guy in the boardroom because they're cheap. Made it right. It's like they're not they're not well-made machines. And so it's really it's like hitting on this whole idea of this, again, this like corporate culture and especially in the eighties. So, so hard like it's not it's not subtle in the way it does it, which I think it works so much in the movies favor.

00:30:28:09 - 00:30:56:22

Clark

Yeah yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, there's are some other interesting things, too, to kind of point out just about, you know, I think so some themes or some messages that verhoeven's kind of stuffed in here. I mean, it'd be it'd be remiss to not kind of mention some of the Jesus metaphors, the Christ metaphors in the film. Of course, you know, there's a few moments where RoboCop definitely you can see where Verhoeven kind of had a Jesus metaphor in mind for him.

00:30:56:23 - 00:31:09:12

Clark

I think where he's kind of crucified by the gang is reminiscent of that, you know, kind of torture and crucifixion of Jesus. Of course, we have at the end of the film, RoboCop even walks on water.

00:31:09:20 - 00:31:11:13

Cullen

Which yes, which is interesting.

00:31:11:16 - 00:31:36:10

Clark

And of course Verhoeven has admitted not, you know, or at least discussed and maybe admitted is the wrong word. It's not like he was trying to hide it, but he's discussed how he did kind of want to make RoboCop an American Christ figure that that he was just interested in kind of the story and metaphor of Jesus. And he felt like some of those aspects would be interesting to incorporate into the character.

00:31:36:10 - 00:31:52:12

Clark

And I think that does definitely come across, even if not consciously. I think it's definitely comes across even kind of, you know, like that, you know, nailing the nails into the hands is kind of, you know, symbolized with the shotgun.

00:31:52:12 - 00:31:54:20

Cullen

And Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess. Yeah. Shot in the hand.

00:31:54:20 - 00:32:17:14

Clark

It just adds some extra elements. But I think, you know, all of these things, it's the satire, the humor, you know, some of these Jesus metaphors. We even have interesting kind of way that that gender is dealt with in the film. I think, you know, I think in a lot of films, especially of this era, Nancy Allen's character would have been sexualized, would have been, you know, a love interest or something of that type.

00:32:17:14 - 00:32:31:22

Clark

And it's they don't even remotely go there. She's that DC actualized. She is you know her hair is cut short. The clothes are completely you know they're covering any kind of way that you might be able to tell the gender.

00:32:32:04 - 00:32:34:01

Cullen

Yeah she's not she's never in some.

00:32:34:03 - 00:32:56:22

Clark

She's never Yeah yeah and we have you know in the beginning of the film when we're in the, the locker room, the police, you know, both, you know, everybody shares the same locker room there is and it's no big deal. It's, you know, nudity is not sexualized. It's just matter of fact, you know, these are things that you don't often see, especially in a film from that era, especially in a genre of action film.

00:32:56:22 - 00:33:04:03

Clark

I mean, it's quite the opposite, right? You'd usually see gratuitous nudity. Oh, yeah. And hypersexualization.

00:33:04:17 - 00:33:07:00

Cullen

Yeah. And there'd be a love scene and it'd be Yeah, yeah.

00:33:07:00 - 00:33:19:07

Clark

Well, would be love, it'd be sex. But it's just. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. But, but that's usually what you would see, right? I mean, matter of fact, like, you know, a studio would demand it, they'd be like, yeah, well we got, you know, you got to have.

00:33:19:12 - 00:33:20:10

Cullen

We got to sell tickets.

00:33:20:11 - 00:33:41:06

Clark

We got to sell tickets, man. So that's it. That's interesting. I feel like those things really stand out and together are a big part of why this film endures and why it kind of stands apart from so much of the other stuff that was made in this space at that time. What else? I mean, there's some, you know, on the special effects side.

00:33:41:06 - 00:33:44:06

Clark

I mean, we talked about a little bit of this, but I think.

00:33:44:06 - 00:33:48:04

Cullen

Yeah, it's well, it's Phil Tippett did all the stop motion who's like a legend.

00:33:48:08 - 00:34:04:00

Clark

Right? And, and I love it. The stop motion work for Ed tonight is great. You know, they had, of course, like a small is small, like not by, say, small. I don't know exactly how big they were, but of course, like fractional sizes of the 209, They also had, I think, some full size.

00:34:04:03 - 00:34:11:13

Cullen

Yes. Yeah. There's a few moments where it's full size. I don't think the full sized one ever or anything. Yeah, I think it could swivel, but I don't think it ever moves.

00:34:11:13 - 00:34:33:23

Clark

And that's it's just so the actors could stand next to it, you know. But I think the puppet work is fantastic. I mean, the stop motion, of course, this is stuff we don't see in today's day and age. This would absolutely be done with CGI today, but I just love it. Maybe it's because I grew up on it and you know, it's obvious you look at it with a modern eye and of course it doesn't look fully realistic.

00:34:33:23 - 00:34:36:05

Clark

But I it's it's interesting.

00:34:36:05 - 00:34:51:00

Cullen

It really Well, I think it's I think it's it's yeah. Like it's integrated in a way that it feels like it's in the scene, even if it does look sort of janky and stop motion. But yeah, I also grew up doing stop motion so I any stop motion I love but me too.

00:34:51:01 - 00:34:55:01

Clark

With yeah, with your toys. You do. You did stop motion with like action figures and things. Yeah.

00:34:55:01 - 00:34:57:20

Cullen

Yeah. Action figures. Legos play. Yeah, yeah.

00:34:58:04 - 00:35:15:13

Clark

So, yeah. So I'm the same and so it speaks to my heart a little bit. But of course I grew up where stop motion and practical effects were all that. I mean, that was the state of the art when I was a kid and so many of the films that I watched. But but even also, I mean, there's a lot of especially on the low budget, I'm really impressed with the matte paintings.

00:35:15:13 - 00:35:20:18

Clark

For example, you know, they, they shot in Dallas primarily. So like.

00:35:21:03 - 00:35:25:05

Cullen

Yeah, except for I think there's like if there's of course the overhead helicopter shots of Detroit but.

00:35:25:22 - 00:35:46:22

Clark

Some stock photos there's like not photo sorry there's some stock footage of to kind of establish that it's in Detroit. Of course that's where the building supposed to be. The like the steel factory where a lot of it takes place was shot in Pittsburgh and then the bulk of it was shot in Dallas. And the the the the landscape, you know, the cityscape.

00:35:47:06 - 00:35:49:22

Cullen

Yeah. Like the OCP headquarters of the Dallas City Hall.

00:35:50:03 - 00:36:00:07

Clark

And they did a great job of taking those buildings and turning them into something, you know, unique and kind of futuristic. With the matte paintings, I think there's the elevator or the exterior elevator shots.

00:36:00:12 - 00:36:01:04

Cullen

Oh, it's great.

00:36:01:04 - 00:36:25:11

Clark

Yeah, really well done with the matte paintings. Just fun stuff, you know, a little bit of, you know, the OCP, their logos everywhere. And you'd already mentioned the Ford Taurus, which was, you know, now, of course, we look at the car and you'd say, Yeah, yeah. But at the time it was a brand new car. It had really not been released to the public and it was really considered to be very futuristic design for its time.

00:36:25:11 - 00:36:27:17

Clark

And so it was ingenious to use.

00:36:27:17 - 00:36:42:13

Cullen

But it's actually something that I hadn't noticed. Like you mentioned, the logos, the OCP logos, I hadn't noticed until I saw it in theaters that they are in the police badges and on the cars and like inside the police insignia, there's the OCP logo. It's written on it, which I think is just like a great little touch.

00:36:42:16 - 00:37:01:01

Clark

It's a great touch on it. And again, it's like a little piece of world building that just shows that OCP is everywhere. They own everything and they're kind of on omniscient, you know, omnipresent and kind of this this fascist kind of, you know, overhanging umbrella over everything.

00:37:01:01 - 00:37:05:14

Cullen

But they put their logo on everything. And they're not they're concerned about profit over everything else.

00:37:05:14 - 00:37:07:12

Clark

Over everything else, which of course. Yeah.

00:37:07:14 - 00:37:28:20

Cullen

It's which I also think is hilarious too that there's this element to of like there's not there nobody in the corporate world is a good person but there are the corporate people that are like better than the other corp. Like there's some corporate people who are better people, right, than other corporate people, right? Yeah, but none of them are good.

00:37:28:20 - 00:37:30:00

Cullen

They're all they're all horrible.

00:37:30:00 - 00:37:32:01

Clark

People, right? Because you've got the older guy, you've got.

00:37:32:01 - 00:37:33:14

Cullen

Like the guy that's kind of the CEO.

00:37:33:14 - 00:37:43:06

Clark

The CEO or kind of the founder. He's kind of like the founder. And it's like, yeah, my goodness. I mean, if you think about it rationally for a second, he's the worst of all. I mean, he's the head of the whole darn thing.

00:37:43:06 - 00:37:48:05

Cullen

He starts out with the big speech about how, like, crime is a cancer that has to be written out of society.

00:37:48:09 - 00:38:07:17

Clark

But you actually kind of but we cheer for him being saved like we you cheer for him being saved by RoboCop, you know. Yeah. And then you've got, of course, that. Oh, fantastic. We can get into performances toward a second, but you've got Miguel Ferrer, you know, his character. I mean, he's this, like, ruthless, up and coming executive, you know, cutthroat guy.

00:38:07:17 - 00:38:29:21

Clark

And but, but you we root for him, too, because it's like, you know, he wants RoboCop to be a good product. He is trying to make a good you know, to make a good thing that's better than dead. 209 that's going to actually work and and and then, you know, of course, he's assassinated and you like you care that he's killed, you're like, oh man, you know, you feel for him a little bit.

00:38:30:01 - 00:38:35:20

Clark

Yeah. Yeah, you're right. All these characters are not great people, but they're also not cardboard people.

00:38:35:20 - 00:38:37:12

Cullen

No, there's, like, different levels.

00:38:37:12 - 00:38:38:11

Clark

Of two dimensional.

00:38:38:12 - 00:38:58:00

Cullen

Yeah, it's. It's dick. Who's the. The dick. Yeah. In the movie he's. He's definitely the worst of them all. But yeah, but again, it's like they're all these corporate suits who are just there for profit. So I think that that's what's so funny. Like, I would almost argue that like with the exception of very few characters ever, one of this movie, there's like a sleaze too.

00:38:58:11 - 00:38:59:15

Cullen

There's like this very.

00:38:59:15 - 00:39:02:00

Clark

Nancy Allen and Peter Weller don't.

00:39:02:00 - 00:39:03:14

Cullen

Have kind of the only two that are.

00:39:04:06 - 00:39:23:21

Clark

Perhaps listed as pretty as, like, universally good people. Yeah, yep, yep, yep. So let's talk a little bit more. You know, we talked about stop motion, we talked about matte paintings. I mean, we've got to talk about the suit. Of course you got to talk about the suit and I think and some makeup and practical effects, which I think are amazing here.

00:39:24:20 - 00:39:31:09

Clark

And if I'm not mistaken, didn't I mean, refresh my memory, who worked on some of the practical effects? Because didn't somebody come from the cast.

00:39:31:14 - 00:39:36:15

Cullen

Of Robert, uh, Steven DePuy? Um, Craig Isaac.

00:39:37:04 - 00:39:40:09

Clark

I feel like somebody came from the thing and I.

00:39:40:09 - 00:39:41:22

Cullen

Saw Fly the Fly or.

00:39:41:22 - 00:39:42:07

Clark

The fly.

00:39:42:07 - 00:39:52:19

Cullen

Oh, no, no, sorry. Yeah. Robert did also do the thing. You did the thing. That's right. And I think it was Steven DePuy who might have done work on the fly.

00:39:53:05 - 00:39:53:14

Clark

Yeah.

00:39:54:00 - 00:39:55:17

Cullen

So it was like a collection of good.

00:39:55:17 - 00:40:02:19

Clark

Yes. This is a really great pedigree. I mean, the fly has extraordinary special effects and practical effects, other things.

00:40:02:20 - 00:40:12:04

Cullen

Which remind me a lot of the melting at the end. Yeah. When a guy gets the toxic waste, which is like the best, you know, that's the scene I hope that the audience is. Oh, it's highly high.

00:40:12:12 - 00:40:26:06

Clark

Yeah, I love it. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Actor Paul McCrane gets his character, gets pushed into the huge vat of toxic waste in it. I mean, that blew me away too. As a kid. I was just like, What?

00:40:26:14 - 00:40:28:12

Cullen

Yes, You got that scene so great.

00:40:28:12 - 00:40:33:23

Clark

I think. I think for like the next ten years, I had this thought that, like, if I touched anything, toxic waste would that's.

00:40:34:01 - 00:40:37:11

Cullen

Going to happen. And it was going to, like, start going, Oh, that's such a great scene.

00:40:37:20 - 00:40:40:03

Clark

And then he's just smooshed, I mean, and then, you know.

00:40:40:05 - 00:40:43:20

Cullen

Oh, yeah, he just explodes into like just blue or green goo.

00:40:43:20 - 00:41:00:19

Clark

Like, Yeah, because he's just like, dissolved. It's like his body is like, you know, gelatin at that point. Oh my gosh, it's so good. But I mean, yet, like we've already talked a little bit about, you know, the Murphy puppet that's shot in the head. That's an extraordinary I mean, there is just a lot of great special effects, practical effects.

00:41:00:19 - 00:41:20:19

Clark

The suit. Now, it's my understanding that that suit was an absolute nightmare for going to work. And I can only imagine how horrible that was. And I mean, it's interesting, you know, it's easy to dismiss Weller's performance or to kind of take it for granted, you know, But that had to have been really hard work. And I think he doesn't.

00:41:20:19 - 00:41:45:01

Clark

A superb job. I know that, you know, it's talked about how much work he put into he studied with somebody from Juilliard for an end movement for months and months and months leading up to this. And as the story goes, you know, he did all this work. We figured out like this whole kind of set of movements of, robotic movements that was going to be a part like that, you know, basis of his character.

00:41:45:08 - 00:41:55:04

Clark

And he gets there on the first day of shooting. And first of all, because it was the first time they'd done it, they hadn't quite figured it out. It took like 9 hours to get the suit on for the first year.

00:41:55:04 - 00:41:55:11

Cullen

Yeah.

00:41:55:18 - 00:42:13:15

Clark

So the first day of shooting is gone just in time to figure out how to get him in a suit. So 9 hours. But then once he finally got the suit on, he realized that none of that preparatory work that he did with this trainer from Juilliard was going to work because the suit didn't allow him to.

00:42:13:18 - 00:42:14:11

Cullen

Move at.

00:42:14:11 - 00:42:15:16

Clark

All. Like also.

00:42:15:16 - 00:42:20:06

Cullen

I mean, think about facial like you only see the bottom half and you don't for most of the movie, you.

00:42:20:06 - 00:42:38:15

Clark

Don't even see his eyes. And what this is like, the most expressive part of an actor's face is their eyes, and they're taken away from him. So you're right. You get like the bottom, you know, you get his chin and his mouth and his his gross major motor movements. And that's like all you get from. But but look at how much he is able to do.

00:42:38:15 - 00:42:41:12

Cullen

And I think it it works so well. It works so.

00:42:41:12 - 00:43:06:19

Clark

Well. I feel like the suit has heft. It looked at me and this is a huge part of the sound effects that, you know, sound design does such so much heavy lifting on selling that suit to the set, the steps, you know, the sounds of RoboCop stepping his movements, you know, the servos or motors moving when he you know, it really does a good job selling because I can only imagine it.

00:43:06:19 - 00:43:16:00

Clark

I mean, if you take that stuff away, like imagine in your mind, take away all the sound effects and imagine what that suit actually sounded like in live audio on set. I mean, it probably.

00:43:16:08 - 00:43:16:16

Cullen

Was like.

00:43:16:16 - 00:43:18:12

Clark

Squeaking clicking plastic.

00:43:19:06 - 00:43:22:07

Cullen

The and that would even the POV shots I think works so well.

00:43:22:08 - 00:43:23:21

Clark

Oh we haven't talked about the poster.

00:43:23:21 - 00:43:28:18

Cullen

Yeah. They use a lot of P.O.V. with these wonderful tech overlays and stuff like that.

00:43:28:21 - 00:43:45:04

Clark

And you know, I tried to get an understanding and I couldn't quite grasp how this was done. And I'm going to ask you, I don't mean to put you on the spot here while we're recording, but you know, the scan line overlay was really interesting to me and I was trying to kind of suss out how they did that from a technical perspective.

00:43:45:09 - 00:44:00:02

Clark

Now, my first thought was like that they had like an actual kind of like shaped piece of glass or something that they might have put over the lens to to kind of distort the light in ridges that way. But I don't think that's how they do it.

00:44:00:08 - 00:44:07:17

Cullen

I wouldn't be surprised if it was an early digital like as Tron was 82. So five years prior? I don't think so.

00:44:07:17 - 00:44:09:18

Clark

I don't think there were any digital effects. Okay.

00:44:09:18 - 00:44:19:13

Cullen

So then it could have been it also could have been something that was like painted like like I think you think of like how lightning used to be done, where it was like painted into the frame on the, on the actual.

00:44:19:13 - 00:44:24:18

Clark

So yeah, so maybe somebody knows if Yeah, if anybody knows out there. But I was just really intrigued.

00:44:25:04 - 00:44:31:07

Cullen

If I was going to guess it would be painted if there were for sure no digital effects in the movie, then yeah, I would, I would guess that it was painted.

00:44:31:09 - 00:44:38:11

Clark

Yeah, I just take it. But it's funny, if you kind of think about it for a second, it's kind of funny that RoboCop has such low resolution vision.

00:44:38:21 - 00:44:41:11

Cullen

Yeah. No. Yeah. That it's all like, blurred and he's.

00:44:41:11 - 00:44:45:03

Clark

Got like two feet. He's got like 240. I like visions.

00:44:45:03 - 00:44:46:11

Cullen

You can see the Scanlon, You.

00:44:46:11 - 00:45:04:12

Clark

Can like the scan lines are like giant, you know. But no, but it, they did a great job of you. And I think that's another thing that really sets this film apart. You know, that they're POV stuff. I mean, it's. It's humanizing it. Well, in a way, it's it's just entertaining. It's interesting. Of course, Terminator did this, too, but we get to see inside.

00:45:04:12 - 00:45:14:08

Clark

I mean, it's like that's what you want as an audience. You're like, what is it like in there? You know, what is what does it feel like to be RoboCop? And I just love that Verhoeven gives that to you as an audience. You get to see.

00:45:14:11 - 00:45:25:18

Cullen

This, you see him like picking out things and targeting and I love also the effect when he's unscrewing the helmet and how they just had the screws basically in the drill. So as it looked like it was coming.

00:45:25:18 - 00:45:27:01

Clark

It looks like it's coming out, it's.

00:45:27:05 - 00:45:47:10

Cullen

Great. And then they would just cut to another real shot of drills coming out of a prop and yeah you know it's it's they did a lot of again it's like what you kind love about especially movies of that era and then stuff is that everything is like a different trick you know it's very much you get that feeling of like a magic show where it's like that's how are we going to trick people into believing that this you know what?

00:45:47:10 - 00:46:08:07

Clark

And I guess that's part of what I love more about. I just love that more than CGI. And I maybe that's what it is. It's like. It's magic. I, I know when I go see a magician perform, that magic isn't real. Of course I know that it's not real. But what makes it intriguing is that I know they are actually doing something in front of the illusion.

00:46:08:07 - 00:46:31:14

Clark

Yeah, well, I know that it's hard work. It's. It's like athleticism. It's. It's. I mean, there's a lot that goes into sleight of hand. It's extremely difficult to do to make those illusions work. It feels a little like cheating when it's just CGI. Yes. I mean, I you know, look, I, I know CGI is here to stay and I know it's a valuable part of filmmaking.

00:46:31:14 - 00:46:49:10

Clark

I get it. I'm not you know, it's here. What can you do? But I guess there's just a little part of me that's like these things that you describe, these small tricks that feels like magic to me. And I, even though I know how it's done when I watch the film, I appreciate it. And it just could be that I'm, you know, that I'm old and that's how I grew up.

00:46:49:10 - 00:47:24:07

Clark

But I do want to say too, real quick, we were talking about those POV shots. There's more than just like the fun of kind of getting to see RoboCop and and, you know, and kind of this fulfillment to the audience of like letting us see what's happening inside this character. But it's also a really powerful tool to humanize RoboCop when he has a flashbacks of his family and when he goes back to his home and he's looking through the this, this empty shell of a home and the the photographs and the remnants, the burned remnants of his old life and his old humanity, we get to see that through his eyes.

00:47:24:13 - 00:47:27:19

Cullen

Yeah. Yeah. And it's and feel that humanization coming back to him.

00:47:27:21 - 00:47:38:10

Clark

And I think this is like what This is one of many things that that layers to this film that a lot of films that could be made like this wouldn't have. And I think it really does work to set it up.

00:47:38:10 - 00:47:43:11

Cullen

Well, I've never seen the remake. I know you haven't either, but I know it was shot again, like a.

00:47:43:14 - 00:47:44:19

Clark

No even worse 90.

00:47:44:19 - 00:47:46:03

Cullen

Seconds down the street from No.

00:47:46:04 - 00:47:48:16

Clark

So you did see it? I actually have seen. Oh, okay.

00:47:48:16 - 00:47:50:11

Cullen

Have you seen any of that in the remake?

00:47:50:11 - 00:47:51:20

Clark

But I can't remember it. Yeah.

00:47:51:20 - 00:47:53:09

Cullen

Okay, fair enough.

00:47:53:09 - 00:48:03:10

Clark

Yeah. Yeah. It was like it was so much of a non. I can't even remember it. It's not even that. I'm like, Oh, it sucked. It's like I literally an indifferent. I can't even.

00:48:03:10 - 00:48:07:05

Cullen

Remember. I just remember it being cool when they were making it because there's a bunch of people, you know.

00:48:07:05 - 00:48:08:15

Clark

Sam Right down the street. Yeah.

00:48:09:03 - 00:48:30:09

Cullen

In my backyard, pretty much. But, um, no, yeah, I, I've never seen it, so I again. And you can't read, so I, I don't want to say there's none of that, but I wouldn't be surprised if they glossed over a lot of that stuff because you don't even see you never see his family live in this movie. Not that they die, but I mean, you never see, like, a live moment, right?

00:48:30:09 - 00:48:32:05

Cullen

Like him going home to them, Right?

00:48:32:05 - 00:48:34:14

Clark

You only see in flashbacks. Yeah. Yeah. It's only I think.

00:48:34:15 - 00:48:52:04

Cullen

It and I think it's a really great you know, this movie is so efficient in its storytelling in the way that it is able to just. It shows you what you need to see in order to feel the feelings of it. I'm sure if there was a moment at the beginning of the movie where it's like he's like at home with them and, oh, you know, I've got to go to work.

00:48:52:04 - 00:48:56:07

Cullen

See, I've been transferred this and it would just be like it really slow it down.

00:48:56:07 - 00:48:56:19

Clark

Whereas yeah.

00:48:57:07 - 00:49:18:11

Cullen

Verhoeven And I assume this was also from the screenplay as well, where they just knew what needed to be seen, what what, what's important to the story. Everything moves along really nicely and yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's lovely. The I mean lovely might not be the best word for it, but it's okay. It's, it's, it's charming. It's very.

00:49:18:11 - 00:49:40:10

Clark

Charming. It is. It is. And you really for and it's just there's a lot of pieces to that. I mean it's, you know, it's from the script, it's verhoeven's direction. It's the actors performances, which are universally great. I mean, we've talked about Peter Weller, but we've not talked about Kurtwood Smith. And, you know, a hero is only as good as is his villain or her villain.

00:49:40:17 - 00:50:03:09

Clark

And Kurtwood Smith's villain is just outstanding in this film. He you know, I know he did a lot of improvization there, you know, and it works. I mean, a lot of the a lot of his best lines were improvised. And and he's just he's he's fantastic. He's got this really fixated, you know, just Yeah. And he's got his own sense of humor, which is fantastic.

00:50:03:09 - 00:50:04:00

Cullen

He's so good.

00:50:04:01 - 00:50:11:07

Clark

Yeah. You know, I mean, so not only is he is he terrifying and scary, but he's also hysterical and he's.

00:50:11:12 - 00:50:19:12

Cullen

He turns into a wimp at the moment. Just rats everyone else. But yeah, you know, then he comes back into the boardroom and he's flirting with the the receptionist and.

00:50:19:18 - 00:50:20:07

Clark

Yeah, it's that.

00:50:20:08 - 00:50:23:15

Cullen

Fast. Then it's like there's this. He's just the he's such a great.

00:50:23:19 - 00:50:25:04

Clark

It's so fun to.

00:50:25:04 - 00:50:29:15

Cullen

Go around again. Like it's, it's one of the things like all the characters in the movie are so well rounded.

00:50:30:03 - 00:50:36:10

Clark

Nancy Allen I think is great. She gets a chance to be, you know, tough and and almost equal hero.

00:50:36:19 - 00:50:54:04

Cullen

Even at the end when she almost dies. I like how again, it's like such a part of this charm of this movie that it's not you know, there's no moment where he runs over to her and he's like holding her and he's like, Oh, and she's just kind of like, It's okay, they'll fix you, right? Like, it's this great, like, almost comedic bit.

00:50:54:19 - 00:50:57:02

Cullen

Yeah. Yeah. And he says to her because he's just like, it's fine.

00:50:57:22 - 00:51:31:09

Clark

Yeah. They'll, they'll, they'll fix you. They fix everything. Yes. What he says what he says. Yeah. But I mean, but she holds her own you know, and I really do appreciate that she's not some damsel in distress that needs to be saved by RoboCop. Not. Not at all. Yeah. Which is. Which is, I think what you'd have in a lot of other scripts that could have been made, you know, you'd have or you'd have some kind of romantic relationship, some weird, inappropriate like he you know, he's a robot now, but, you know, there's like some some love affair going on somehow with that, you know, I can just see that happening.

00:51:31:16 - 00:51:38:22

Clark

And I'm grateful they don't go there. But if we you know who else I mean, the welfare is he's fantastic. He's fantastic.

00:51:39:09 - 00:51:41:18

Cullen

He's, you know, doing. Yeah, but but you.

00:51:41:21 - 00:51:44:03

Clark

Know, he's not even but he's not just sleaze. I mean.

00:51:44:06 - 00:51:47:02

Cullen

No he's yeah he's, he's again he's got aspirations, he's.

00:51:47:03 - 00:51:56:18

Clark

He's got aspirations and it's like when he's killed you like feel bad for him, you know. I mean he's like kneecapped and then left to, you know, to blow up in his house. I mean, yeah.

00:51:56:18 - 00:52:04:08

Cullen

He's kind of what you assume the villain is going to be, but he's like a red herring in that way. He is. And he, he's killed off and it's it's well and you know.

00:52:04:09 - 00:52:20:20

Clark

And because there's layers of bad guys right. And it's like but I think it's does a great job, you know, it really does a great job if you think about, you know, how many people have to work at a company and that kind of like let bad things happen for big things to go bad, right? It's like, you know, it's because that's the thing.

00:52:20:20 - 00:52:39:10

Clark

It's like, well, I'm just you know, I'm just an employee. I just work there. I'm just trying to get by mean that's how like, things turn horrible. It's, you know, Yeah. Yes, there's a person at the top who has some kind of, like, you know, sociopathic, you know, ideas maybe about how what a company's role is in the world.

00:52:39:10 - 00:52:49:09

Clark

And and that stockholder profits are the only thing that matters. But but for that to you also have to have a lot of employees working at that company who.

00:52:49:09 - 00:52:51:19

Cullen

Also going on either line. Yeah. And then you.

00:52:51:19 - 00:52:58:21

Clark

Also have to have a lot of stockholders who don't care and don't ask questions. And that's exactly what happens in the real life. So it's and.

00:52:58:21 - 00:53:19:11

Cullen

I think that's perhaps what the I call it, kind of the Verhoeven curse, which is the shame of a lot of Verhoeven's works that he is such a like to me like brilliant satirist that oftentimes the satire goes over a lot of people's heads. I've seen people discussing this movie and discussing Starship Troopers thinking that they are 100%, you know, serious and in on what they're.

00:53:19:18 - 00:53:20:18

Clark

Really going.

00:53:20:18 - 00:53:39:11

Cullen

For, what they're doing. And really so, you know yeah. Which I think is I'll take it very like it's bizarre to me because it seems very obvious to me. But I think that it's yeah, it's just one of those things that it's like it. I can't imagine watching this movie and not coming away with it, thinking that it's a satire, it's a cartoon culture and corporatism and neo liberalism.

00:53:39:11 - 00:53:57:15

Cullen

But right. But it it really I think, well, all that it's does is it does that really well because things are so well rounded and so like there's a lot of as heightened as the movie is, there's a lot of realism in the things that are being presented. Yeah, there's very real elements to this movie.

00:53:57:16 - 00:53:59:07

Clark

It's gritty. It's gritty.

00:53:59:07 - 00:54:06:10

Cullen

Yeah, exactly. It's very gritty and it's very, you know, unapologetic in what it's kind of going after and making fun of.

00:54:06:17 - 00:54:07:00

Clark

Yeah.

00:54:07:12 - 00:54:27:07

Cullen

And I think because of that, it, it feels like it could be genuine in a weird way, but it doesn't I mean, again, it's not difficult to discern what's being made fun of in this movie, but I'm not necessarily surprised that some people watch this and go like, yeah, it's it's it's like just a bad ass action movie and nothing more.

00:54:27:13 - 00:54:38:22

Cullen

Yeah. You know, it's I'm not surprised that that kind of goes over people's heads, I'm sure especially again, same thing with Starship Troopers, which of course is another it's quite similar in tone Verhoeven movie.

00:54:39:03 - 00:54:56:08

Clark

Yeah so and look it happens, it's always going to be the case and I remember like another film that's a good fight club, you know, which actually kind of is like mocking and parodying this, you know, kind of like fascist group of people who get together, you know. But what did people want to do? They wanted to start their own fight club.

00:54:56:08 - 00:55:10:06

Clark

They thought it was. Yeah, well, you know, it's this is this is like, you know, this is since the dawn of time, you know, it's totally different. Yeah. You know, you've got when you've got 100 million people watching, you know, somebody, it's a film. You're going to have percentages of people who think all kinds of different things.

00:55:10:06 - 00:55:13:21

Cullen

You're never going to solve it. So you're never going to get everyone to.

00:55:14:00 - 00:55:36:10

Clark

And that's okay. That's the same way. And that's and that's okay. And that's where and that's a totally different topic for a totally different time. But that's, you know, it's interesting questions about, you know, what is the responsibility of the artist, if any, when it comes to the responses of their work and those are those are really interesting questions for another time perhaps.

00:55:36:13 - 00:55:45:23

Clark

But yeah, well, anything else we could talk about? I mean, we've talked the soundtrack, Basil, I think. Is it Pull it? Doris His soundtrack is fantastic. Yeah, it's.

00:55:46:00 - 00:55:47:06

Cullen

One of the best in I love it.

00:55:47:06 - 00:56:00:08

Clark

And we've and the cinematography is a ghost volcano. And I wasn't terribly familiar with his work, but we looked him up. He's done work, right for some other Verhoeven Verhoeven film.

00:56:00:08 - 00:56:07:19

Cullen

Yeah, he was kind of verhoeven's go to, it seemed like until 2000, basically, which might have been, I think when he retired. Yeah.

00:56:09:04 - 00:56:16:04

Clark

But everything, everything. Just yeah, the film is firing on all cylinders. Well what more can you say. Oh it's, yeah.

00:56:16:06 - 00:56:18:12

Cullen

It not jedicke, it's bombastic, it's in.

00:56:18:12 - 00:56:22:21

Clark

It went on to of course to inspire, you know, an entire franchise which sadly.

00:56:22:21 - 00:56:24:23

Cullen

And I would say almost an entire genre.

00:56:25:01 - 00:56:45:04

Clark

Yeah, Yeah, you're right. I mean. Well, yeah, I mean, we're talking TV shows, cartoons, video games, movies, a remake and a sadly, you know, none of it has lived up to the promise of the first film. Yeah, sadly. But. But I think that just goes to show even more. You know, how rare it is to get such a talented group of people together on one project.

00:56:45:04 - 00:56:57:21

Clark

It's, you know, all the stars aligned for this. So yeah, I'm glad that we have it. And I just it's, it's a film that stuck with me. And clearly it has you to because you've picked it for this episode and what fun.

00:56:57:21 - 00:57:01:01

Cullen

And again, it's such a coincidence that I was able to see it in theaters after.

00:57:01:01 - 00:57:04:23

Clark

Picking it. I That's fantastic. Now, if only it could have been in film. But hey, that's.

00:57:05:06 - 00:57:06:00

Cullen

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:57:06:08 - 00:57:11:07

Clark

Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, I guess we'll wrap that up. Episode 40.

00:57:11:07 - 00:57:12:00

Cullen

Two.

00:57:12:08 - 00:57:28:01

Clark

Verhoeven's RoboCop. Thanks for picking this film and I really enjoyed discussing it with you. Everybody out there, I you enjoyed listening to our discussion and until next time, we'll see you all. On the flip side.

Episode - 043 - Cullen Notes 2 - Daylight Again

Clark

Hello, everyone, and welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I, as always, am Clark Coffey. And also as always with me is Mr. Cullen McFater. Hey Co. Hello. Good.

00:00:22:17 - 00:00:23:16

Cullen

Good, good. How are you?

00:00:23:19 - 00:00:39:09

Clark

I'm doing fantastic on this beautiful, overcast, misty day, which is rare for us to get here in Southern California and enjoying it. It's like perfect riding weather. So I'm excited too, after we record this, I'm going to sit down next to the fireplace and do some writing.

00:00:39:18 - 00:00:40:10

Cullen

Nice. Yeah.

00:00:40:15 - 00:00:41:08

Clark

I don't know what it is.

00:00:41:08 - 00:00:44:18

Cullen

Like the best atmosphere for. Yeah, it's mysterious, you know.

00:00:44:18 - 00:00:58:21

Clark

It's always I feel like it's harder to write when it's, you know, 80 degrees and sunny every single day. You know, I maybe it's the romantic in me, but I, I want like, you know, a foot of snow outside and overcast and it, you know, it's too cold to go anywhere. And when it.

00:00:58:21 - 00:01:00:07

Cullen

Feels like there's tension in the air, you.

00:01:00:07 - 00:01:25:10

Clark

Just, like hunkered down, you know, and. Yeah. And it's like, well, there's nothing to do but right any way. And, you know, you make yourself a hot toddy. And so now anyway, maybe. But anyway, I'm also glad to be here, which with you on what will be episode 43. And I'm I'm really looking forward to hearing more about your film Daylight Again.

00:01:25:16 - 00:02:00:18

Clark

So, you know, we've we've done an episode, a couple episodes up into this point where we kind of went over some of your preparations for pre-production, and we had another episode where we talked a little bit about the first part of your of your production. You're shooting and now you've wrapped and you're in post. So we're going to talk a little bit more about your whole process and what you went through and maybe what you learned or you know, how things went for this, this the second half of your production and kind of as you slide into the first parts of post here.

00:02:00:19 - 00:02:18:07

Clark

So, yeah, let's jump in. I mean, let's let's remind everybody, if you would like, give us a quick little summary of your film, of the project, of its scope and story, just in case people are jumping in here and haven't heard the other two. And then we'll we'll kind of go through what your process has been thus far.

00:02:18:15 - 00:02:47:19

Cullen

Yeah. So the project, the movie, as you said, is called Daylight Again, It's a very Hitchcock kind of drama thriller about this character named Maggie, who's kind of reached rock bottom and has nowhere to go. And her family and friends have all kind of disowned her in a way. And then she bumps into her ex from a few years ago, Peter, who, you know, they had kind of a toxic relationship back in the day and did some illegal stuff.

00:02:48:00 - 00:03:09:12

Cullen

Whoa. But he kind of offers to, you know, house her and help her kind of get back on her feet. So he brings her up to his house, which is off in the country, way up north. And things kind of aren't as they seem. And she sort of realizes that there was a ulterior motive to his his his reaching out.

00:03:09:21 - 00:03:46:01

Cullen

So don't don't get very, very Hitchcock very like I was kind of funny because I rewatched Rebecca right before we did our major shoot at the house location, which is one of my favorite Hitchcock movies. And I sort of realized how much I accidentally stole from it completely subconsciously, like even the plot itself is super similar to Rebecca, which of course is about a woman who is swept up by a man who she has never dated before in that instance and goes to his house and finds out all these, you know, secrets about him and that that maybe he's not quite as nice as he seems.

00:03:46:01 - 00:04:04:04

Cullen

So it was kind of funny to to watch watch that before I went and kind of realize like, oh, wow, this is I can tell where my mind kind of went on the the inspiration side of things. Yeah. So it was it was a year and a half about a year and a half of writing and pre-production and stuff like that.

00:04:04:04 - 00:04:10:12

Cullen

And then we shot it over the course of about a month and a half. But there were ten shoot days individually.

00:04:10:12 - 00:04:10:20

Clark

Okay.

00:04:10:22 - 00:04:23:11

Cullen

Originally there were suppose to be 11, but one of them got cut, so there was ten total shoot days, which is I'm sure that anybody who has experience in the film industry right now is going like first feature in ten days. There's no way that worked.

00:04:23:18 - 00:04:25:14

Clark

Yeah, yeah, that's not many days.

00:04:25:14 - 00:04:40:01

Cullen

I thought the same thing and everyone I told was like, good luck because you know, a lot of people's first shoot features take years to shoot and get done and stuff, but I hopefully will be able to get into kind of the details of like how I planned it and how I scheduled everything.

00:04:40:12 - 00:04:41:11

Clark

Well, yeah, Let's.

00:04:41:15 - 00:04:42:12

Cullen

Talk a little bit about Yeah.

00:04:42:15 - 00:05:02:02

Clark

Yeah. Well, let's use that. Let's use that then as a segue way to, to, to talk about how you set things up and what your shoot was like. So I mean, how did you get it done in ten days? I mean, give us an idea of script length and kind of where you feel like if you've got a target for film length.

00:05:02:11 - 00:05:09:05

Clark

But what what do you think were some of the keys for getting that successfully shot in such a short period of time?

00:05:09:05 - 00:05:45:01

Cullen

So the script length is 90 pages, okay. And I'm aiming for about 80 to 90 minutes on the film. Okay. And I think the biggest key was, you know, during the writing process, knowing that I was directing it, being able to both cut down or alter scenes to make it, you know, easier to shoot. So an example is in an earlier draft like this, the final set piece of the film took place at night or at dusk or dawn in a forest, and it was this big like action, not action in terms of like fight scene, but it was like there's a lot of action, a lot of stunt work and choreography and stuff that

00:05:45:01 - 00:06:08:16

Cullen

had to go into that. Yeah. And I was like, There's no way that on this budget, which is again, it's entirely self-financed not just by me, but, you know, self-financed by the group of us, that there's no way that that I was going to be able to wrap around the the infrastructure needed to shoot such a complicated scene out in the forest at at dawn.

00:06:09:00 - 00:06:27:20

Cullen

Yeah. Like that's just you know, those are three things that are like, you know, even a big budget movie would have a hard time pulling that off. So I wound up switching that whole thing to be inside in this cellar, which is a location that we'll talk about once we kind of get onto the actual shoot days themselves.

00:06:27:20 - 00:06:43:01

Cullen

So it was a lot of that. Like it was a lot of going through the script and being like, that's going to be way too complicated to shoot. So how can I get that scene? Kind of or the idea of that scene across while also making it a much more simple logistic kind of thing to to get done?

00:06:43:22 - 00:07:12:20

Cullen

And then the second part of it was, was also being able to kind of go through the script itself and sort of say like, okay, what what locations need what, you know, who are the actors I need? Because I kind of did all of the pre pro like the production by myself as well. So it was it came down to basically looking at the short list and getting a really detailed short list actually running through that short list in the rehearsal and kind of, you know, faking the setups during the rehearsal process that we did, which we spoke about kind of in our first episode, right.

00:07:13:04 - 00:07:31:14

Cullen

Um, and, you know, setting up with a viewfinder like the shots and realizing, okay, that actually I can, I can cut out these three shots because that shot kind of covers the whole scene and actually looks really nice in the blocking can kind of play out naturally in that one set up rather than having to do six different shots for for a scene.

00:07:31:20 - 00:07:52:12

Cullen

Yeah. So it was again, it was a lot of kind of cutting things down to the essentials, which not in a way that, that made it seem like it was like lazy or rushed or anything like that, but rather quite the contrary, so that I could put a lot of effort into as few shots as focus as opposed to, you know, spreading out so much effort over 50 shots in a scene or something.

00:07:52:17 - 00:08:07:22

Clark

Right. Which often happens. So so yeah, it sounds like I mean, in the writing process, it at least if not if not in your first kind of draft or I mean, not your first draft, but you kind of it sounds like you took your shooting script and you went through and you even refined that further.

00:08:08:04 - 00:08:08:18

Cullen

Where you.

00:08:09:04 - 00:08:31:13

Clark

You said, okay, what are the actual practical limitations? What locations can I get? And even more, you know, these shots, the handful of shots like the one that you describe, this is going to be technically quite difficult. I could like kind of put this in a different place or at a different time and make that shot technically much easier for me to to actually pull off in such a short amount of time.

00:08:32:03 - 00:08:51:09

Cullen

And then I mean, if an example of one of those things too, is that there was a location that was was we inside kind of like a hardware store and I was not getting a response from anywhere, you know, even when they'd email back and sort of say, hey, do you have any more details about the thing? And of course, you know, again, offering to pay for these locations as well, but nowhere close.

00:08:51:09 - 00:08:52:14

Clark

It is probably tough. I mean.

00:08:52:17 - 00:09:19:21

Cullen

Exactly. And so I wound up taking that scene and just setting it outside in a parking lot. And we already had another shoot at a parking lot, which was the scene was supposed to be the scene after that scene in the hardware store. And so what that made me that's actually why it went from 11 to 10 days, because I wound up cutting an entire shoot day out because of the fact that we no longer needed that location of of inside the hardware store.

00:09:20:03 - 00:09:38:04

Cullen

And so I just kind of combined there was like supposed to initially be two scenes. They have a conversation in the hardware store and carry it out, you know, into the parking lot. And I just wound up using that entire parking lot to be the setting of the entire scene rather than. Yeah, which took some rewriting. You know, I rewrote the scene so that it made sense to be out there.

00:09:38:04 - 00:09:54:14

Cullen

And I actually wound up liking that scene in the way that the dialog kind of progressed in that scene. More than had I even shot the scene in the hardware store in the first place. So, yeah, again, a lot of things like that just kind of going like, okay, this location either isn't responding or is going to be, you know, too much work or something like that.

00:09:54:14 - 00:09:58:21

Cullen

And so why don't I just simplify it and kind of find things and make it more efficient?

00:09:59:03 - 00:10:12:22

Clark

And I mean, I think it's important to note, too, and because I see this and a lot of shoots and it sounds like your rehearsal process limited this quite a bit, which is just a ton of coverage, I think.

00:10:13:00 - 00:10:13:12

Cullen

Yeah, Yeah.

00:10:13:16 - 00:10:33:20

Clark

And you know, it seems to me that it's and I'm really against shooting a lot of coverage. And I know that there are people out there who, you know, they, they want to get everything from every angle because what, you know, it makes them feel kind of safer. You know, it's like, okay, if I've got all these angles, if I've got all this coverage, I'm, you know, get as wide as possible to, you know.

00:10:34:06 - 00:10:35:23

Cullen

I can cross wherever I want. Yeah.

00:10:36:00 - 00:11:03:07

Clark

I mean, everything in between. They feel like, okay, I'm giving myself all these options when I get into editing and I don't actually feel like that's really how that ends up. No, I think what ends up happening is that you're overwhelmed in editing A and B, that lack of focus really becomes evident once you start to edit the picture together, you can tell that there wasn't an intensity of focus and and a conscientiousness.

00:11:04:05 - 00:11:05:19

Clark

So I don't know it, you know, I.

00:11:05:19 - 00:11:36:07

Cullen

Didn't got a perfect example of that to use into when we were shooting at the restaurant one night, which again lots of extras and things like that and props and fake wine and beer and stuff like that. So like logistically a more complicated shoot than, than the earlier ones have been. Probably the first, like majorly complicated lots of kind of infrastructure going into the shoot, you know, actually having to speak with the location owner JR and stuff Owner owner owners here is actually the restaurant that I used to bartend at.

00:11:36:07 - 00:11:59:03

Cullen

So it was, you know, a little bit of a great way to sneak in there. But there was one scene where I knew that I wanted to have the primary the most of the scene take place in a one hour of just them talking at the the table, kind of a very Bong Joon Ho shot where it's like they're very again, it's almost like tableaux like they're choreographed and staged in a way.

00:11:59:03 - 00:12:21:04

Cullen

Then the blocking is in a way that like you can see all their faces. They're all kind of sitting on one side of the table and talking to each other that way, as opposed to something where it would be like were shot over, shot at a table. I just liked the look of the kind of, you know, back from afar on a really long lens looking over to them and having this whole scene play out in the shot was though, I had, you know, an insert of or just, you know, the master.

00:12:21:04 - 00:12:37:14

Cullen

And then I had the close ups of each of them so that if something went wrong in the master, I could cut in. But we did the master first and my first or my assistant director sort of came over and said like, okay, now it's like, what's the like how we're going to light the close ups? And I was looking at the the take and I sort of said like, Oh, we don't even need them.

00:12:37:14 - 00:12:56:20

Cullen

Like, I'm happy with that. And I know that if we cut into anything, it's going to interrupt the rhythm of that scene. And so we we wound up cutting, again, three shots out of the scene. Yeah, just on the shoot day, because I realized that that one master, which was always my plan initially, didn't need any coverage to, to fill in the blanks or anything like that.

00:12:56:20 - 00:13:07:16

Cullen

It just worked on its own and the performances were solid. So I was happy with it, happy enough with it to just go with the master as I had initially planned and didn't need that that extra coverage.

00:13:07:16 - 00:13:07:22

Clark

Yeah.

00:13:07:23 - 00:13:35:21

Cullen

Which again would have just slowed things down and it would have been pointless because I wouldn't have used them. So you kind of have to again, you have to be really you finite resources, including time. And I think if you use them wisely, then to make shots look good and to make sure the actors are, you know, delivering well and things like that and liked them really nicely, then you're going to have, I think, a better final product than if you just, you know, get so much stuff that that it just winds up being jumbled and, you know, Sure.

00:13:35:21 - 00:13:49:08

Cullen

Are there you know, the slight moment of like a continuity error or something like that somewhere in the movie probably. But it doesn't really matter at the end of the day because it's one second. And I think that you'd have to really be forensically analyzing the movie to actually even notice those types of things.

00:13:49:08 - 00:13:49:18

Clark

Right.

00:13:50:11 - 00:14:04:20

Cullen

Whereas I think what's much more noticeable, again, like you said, is just this kind of like lack of vision or lack of of like a clear choice of what the shots are. And you're just trying to capture everything so that you can kind of like stitch together in the edit.

00:14:05:05 - 00:14:24:01

Clark

Yeah, yeah. Absolute. And I it's, and it takes confidence, right? I mean you've got to because I mean look, I understand it's, it can be scary you know, to, to put all your eggs in one basket so to speak. But you know it's, I think that confidence usually pays off. I mean, there is, you know, everything is kind of a balance.

00:14:25:01 - 00:14:55:03

Clark

And you've got to be sure. But yeah, well, I'll be excited to see the what you've got. And, you know, we could talk a little bit more. I know you're you're actually kind of starting post this, but but before we jump to that, let's let's talk about you've already mentioned like a handful of different locations. And I know you know, for for people who are kind of just starting out, who are making some of their first films, that's one of the biggest challenges right away are are finding locations that you're able to use.

00:14:55:04 - 00:15:05:03

Clark

Talk to me a little bit about some of the locations that you used and how you went about finding them and how that kind of worked. How were you able to do that on such a low budget?

00:15:05:11 - 00:15:29:00

Cullen

Mm hmm. Yeah. So the first two days were just one of them we shot just at my house, which is always, you know, the easiest. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's an exterior scene in a forest that we shot very close to my house. There's a big kind of, like, forest with a marsh and stuff nearby. So we were able very much a local kind of like I knew the locations, I'd been there, a shot things there before.

00:15:29:21 - 00:15:33:00

Cullen

So I kind of knew how easy it was to get equipment over there and stuff like that.

00:15:33:05 - 00:15:36:02

Clark

Now, did you just steal those exteriors? You just kind of ran out?

00:15:36:02 - 00:15:54:21

Cullen

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. No, like scenes in the parking lot. Exactly. We just I knew what parking lot would be kind of the least busy on a Sunday morning. Yeah. And so we just went there and, you know, there was, of course, traffic going through, but it kind of added to the location anyway. But there was no issue of like people parking right beside us or something like that.

00:15:54:23 - 00:15:57:10

Clark

You never had anybody come up and say, What are you doing here?

00:15:57:15 - 00:16:16:05

Cullen

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Good, good. Yeah. And then the so then the first kind of major location that was that was like an actual kind of rental was the restaurant, which as I said, I used to bartend there. And when I was writing the script I wrote kind of blocked the scenes in my head in that restaurant. So it was really great that I wound up getting to use it.

00:16:16:05 - 00:16:39:13

Cullen

The lighting was also like, IS has always really been really beautiful in that restaurant because it's a very light. There's a lot of light fixtures that are very soft, that are kind of hanging from the ceiling all over the restaurant. So it provides a really soft kind of wrap around lighting versus, you know, some restaurants that are either really dark or some restaurants that just have really harsh lights that are just in certain areas and there's not like an even distribution of light.

00:16:39:13 - 00:16:56:05

Cullen

So it made it really easy to light around. And then, you know, again, because the fact that I bartended there, I was able to easily talk to the owner. Yeah. And that is again, a huge recommendation is just use what you know when use don't be afraid to ask for favors from people and stuff like that and of course return them.

00:16:57:00 - 00:17:14:20

Cullen

But yeah, so that was kind of the first major location that wasn't, you know, my own or something that I owned or something that's kind of stolen outside that, that didn't really have a like that was public. And that one went well. That was just a, again, a restaurant scene. So we had to we had extras and stuff like that.

00:17:14:20 - 00:17:26:19

Cullen

And then after that was a cellar scene. So that was one of these scenes that I was kind of concerned about because in that, again, very specific blocking and very specific needs from the screenplay, right?

00:17:26:19 - 00:17:30:20

Clark

I mean, you had seen tons and kind of I mean, there's a whole quarry at choreograph and they were in.

00:17:30:20 - 00:17:41:02

Cullen

There was like a you know, just even the way that that our main character enters the space and exits the space was very specific in the screenplay, and I had a very specific idea in my head.

00:17:41:09 - 00:17:51:11

Clark

Right now. Did you? Did you. So the cellar scene, you're going to tell us in a second maybe I'm jumping the gun here, but did you have the location locked down and then wrote the scene? No way.

00:17:51:12 - 00:18:02:13

Cullen

No. So I knew that I would probably have to change it, but I still wrote it specifically anyway, like for a fake location in my head, just like, okay, I kind of want the door to be there and then another door here. And then so you.

00:18:02:13 - 00:18:06:13

Clark

Imagined the space and then you went out and you found something that you could make work.

00:18:06:13 - 00:18:20:15

Cullen

With. Yeah. And so what was funny was that so I there's a lot of great is another, you know, piece of advice for anybody who's kind of starting out. There's a lot of great Facebook groups that are just like film industry network Toronto or, you know, wherever you are, I'm sure there's a ton of them for each city.

00:18:22:00 - 00:18:36:05

Cullen

And so I just went there and I sort of said like, Hey, I need a location that's sort of like The Silence of the Lambs house or like the parasite, you know, Bunker, basement kind of thing. Like I need some sort of cellar with hallways, basically like a main room and then some some tunnels.

00:18:36:05 - 00:18:37:14

Clark

Which kind of. Maisy Yeah.

00:18:38:02 - 00:18:58:18

Cullen

And I got a few pieces of like, you know, people saying like, here's this or that or this, and none of them really worked. And then this one guy reached out to me and said, like, Hey, I'm in Hamilton, which is a you know, very short drive, like a half hour drive from where I live. And he said, like, I've got this this location where there's soundstages on the top.

00:18:58:18 - 00:19:16:12

Cullen

It's this old like warehouse, but in the basement it was an old hydro building. So they used to run water through it and it would power the street lamps. It was so like back in the early 1900s. And so we I went for a scout, like I went with one of the people that was working with me. We just kind of went to check it out.

00:19:16:21 - 00:19:29:12

Cullen

And I walk into the space and it was literally like, you know, block for block exactly what I had imagined. Perfect. Like I had to change absolutely nothing about what was in the screenplay, which was, you know, kind of insane.

00:19:29:14 - 00:19:30:09

Clark

Yeah. Yeah.

00:19:30:10 - 00:19:51:10

Cullen

And, and so then so I booked that location. And that day, that shoot day was like, without a doubt, the most complicated, because again, that was the day that we had to have, like, makeup. We had to have, you know, there was like a lot of the lighting had to be very specific because we're in the cellar. And so we needed like 200 feet of extension cords to get light down there.

00:19:51:18 - 00:20:11:18

Cullen

Yeah, we had to make sure that the lenses were fast enough to to actually capture, you know, a dark space like that. And we had to bring like a haze machines that it filled the space and that we there was a bunch of props. There was, you know, very complicated set dressing to make it just look like the space that I wanted to look like.

00:20:11:18 - 00:20:18:19

Cullen

So, yeah, without a doubt, that was that was the most challenging day. But even that went really, really smoothly.

00:20:19:00 - 00:20:37:07

Clark

Yeah. Let me let's talk a little bit more in detail about that. Let me ask it. You know, because I think sometimes, you know, it might help some people who are like, again, you know, in the process of putting together their own first films or they're coming up against the challenges. So talk to me a little bit about how you negotiated the rental of that space.

00:20:38:08 - 00:20:42:21

Clark

Was it was it difficult? Did you you know, just tell me a little bit about that.

00:20:43:13 - 00:20:53:13

Cullen

Yeah. So it was basically I went and I think their rate was 100 an hour and or you could do a thousand for the full day.

00:20:53:16 - 00:20:56:03

Clark

So they were kind of set up like they had it sounds.

00:20:56:03 - 00:21:03:08

Cullen

Yeah, they had, they had fees but then they also you were able to negotiate if your budget was lower to to, you know, pay less.

00:21:03:12 - 00:21:03:22

Clark

Okay.

00:21:05:04 - 00:21:24:12

Cullen

So I wound up kind of negotiating down a little bit. But then what was funny was that I showed up. So that was also the day that, again, nothing really majorly went wrong, but there was it was actually kind of turned out to be a little bit lucky for that location. So I had booked the location in April and the shoot day was at the end of July.

00:21:24:12 - 00:21:42:02

Cullen

So there was a few months between me actually going to location and then the shoot day. And so I show up on the shoot day and I had talked to the to the owners a few days or a few weeks in advance of it and sort of ask them questions and stuff. And then suddenly they kind of stopped responding.

00:21:42:16 - 00:21:59:10

Cullen

And it was kind of odd. And I was like, Well, I hope that they're just busy. I definitely need this location. I've got actors that are actually, you know, hired out to come. I've got a makeup artist that I've hired. So let's hope that that they're just busy. So we show up on the day and the door was locked and the place was empty.

00:22:00:02 - 00:22:19:18

Cullen

And so I was like, Oh, no. Like, let's just let's just hope that that, you know, I just have to call somebody or something. And so I call and the guy that I was arranging kind of like my contact at the place was out of town, but luckily he was able to pick up his phone. And so he just gave me the code, the code for the lockbox.

00:22:19:18 - 00:22:39:17

Cullen

And so I can get the key and open everything up and get in there. But I think what had happened was actually that he had forgotten to actually write me and schedule me in. So I think that he'd completely forgotten. And luckily it only took like 5 minutes to actually get all that figured out. But because of that, he wound up like just basically giving it to me free of charge, because he was like, you know, my bad was.

00:22:39:18 - 00:22:42:03

Cullen

So I wound up getting the location for free, which, oh.

00:22:42:03 - 00:22:44:01

Clark

My God, great. That's amazing.

00:22:44:14 - 00:23:03:02

Cullen

But then we get in and it's again, it's like a big warehouse soundstage type thing. So we could actually pull our cars into the to the actual building. And I locked my keys in my car, which had all of the equipment, all the other sound equipment, the camera, everything. So it was like two things in a row. We're just like, Oh great.

00:23:03:02 - 00:23:24:01

Cullen

But again, luckily that was resolved within 10 minutes. We called CAA, which is, you know, based triple triple-A here. And, and they opened my door and it was it was all fine. And those two things for that day were the biggest things that went wrong. Everything else went, you know, incredibly smoothly. But again, to talk about scheduling so there's kind of two sections of the scene.

00:23:24:01 - 00:23:44:07

Cullen

There's the scenes that take place in the tunnels, and then there's the scenes play set takes place in the the cellar and actually two separate parts of the building. So you had to like you couldn't actually film right through into the one location from the other side. But I knew that the one actor was going to be alone in the tunnel scenes and she was the one that needed the light makeup and the other actor needed heavier makeup.

00:23:45:00 - 00:24:11:08

Cullen

So basically, again, like just to talk about efficiency of scheduling, we got there at nine. The first actor, we probably didn't get set up until about ten, ready to shoot the lead actress. She gets her makeup and then we got the other guy in the makeup chair to get the the more intense makeup for him. And while he was getting his makeup, which was going to take about 2 hours, we were down getting all the shots in the tunnels because he wasn't needed.

00:24:11:16 - 00:24:31:01

Cullen

Then by that point, we'd wrapped we took about 2 hours in the tunnels to get all the stuff that we needed down there and lots of like dollies and, you know, some kind of cool effects lighting and stuff like that down there. And then we finished that about 1230, got lunch, and then we had the rest of the day to actually do the major scene in the cellar.

00:24:32:01 - 00:24:45:06

Cullen

So we basically again, it was kind of this like it seems very simple, but it's one of those things that's just kind of like, okay, well, he's in his makeup chair. We don't need him for any of these scenes. Let's go get those scenes, finish those lunch, then move on to more complicated stuff.

00:24:45:12 - 00:25:01:05

Clark

Well, let me ask I mean, I know, you know, it's I think you said what you had a six crew total, and I know you funded it yourself. Very low budget. You wrote it, you directed it. Did you also build the schedule? Did you line.

00:25:01:09 - 00:25:04:08

Cullen

Crews? Yeah, Yeah, I did all the scheduling and everything myself.

00:25:04:16 - 00:25:05:02

Clark

Okay.

00:25:05:19 - 00:25:27:18

Cullen

And and just because I knew that, like, I wanted to wrap my head around it and kind of know what every moment, like it was really, really helpful for, for any time. Something kind of like, couldn't be done at that time and I could sort of go like, Oh, well, I know that we're going to have this location later that time, so let's just get this other bit here and then we can go back to that after.

00:25:27:18 - 00:25:46:23

Cullen

And it's really easy. Whereas I think if I didn't do the schedule myself or wasn't as familiar with it, there would be a lot of situations where it's kind of like, Oh, something went wrong and now I need to figure out what to do, as opposed to just being able to in a split second, know exactly where we can go from a certain place if something is unavailable or whatever.

00:25:47:05 - 00:25:49:23

Clark

Did you have an aide or somebody there to help keep you?

00:25:49:23 - 00:26:00:06

Cullen

Yes. So? So I had one aide who he kind of controlled the shot list and I kept track of time and stuff like that. And so he had the schedule. Of course, he.

00:26:00:06 - 00:26:15:14

Clark

Did have a little bit of help there. But I mean, it's a lot to take on. Did you find that to be I mean, it's a lot to hold in your head. It's I mean, you're right. There's a there's definitely a benefit to having all of that information and being so intimately involved in it. But that's also got to be a lot, too.

00:26:15:20 - 00:26:26:05

Clark

You're worried about getting the shot, you're working with actors, you're dealing with whatever issues come up, like the two examples you just said. I mean, look, you know, no amount of planning can can.

00:26:27:00 - 00:26:27:15

Cullen

Negate that.

00:26:27:21 - 00:26:45:05

Clark

Negate anything from happening, right? So you're all you're having to I mean, it's a major problem. I mean, I think, you know, it's it's easy to forget sometimes that directing, I think, is really you know, it's at least as much about solving random weird problems that it is about, you know, the creative side. Yeah, the creative side. Yeah, totally.

00:26:45:08 - 00:26:57:17

Cullen

Well, I know. Yeah. I think that for me, the way I think about it, it's like I don't really compartmentalize things. Yeah. So, like, I get on and, you know, working with the actors or setting up the shot or the lighting, it's all, to me, just like one task.

00:26:57:18 - 00:26:58:01

Clark

Yeah.

00:26:58:04 - 00:27:15:13

Cullen

So knowing that schedule and stuff like that, like to me that's still just like it's not necessarily jumbled up in my head of like, I have to, like, think about this now and this and then this and then now I'm working with the actors. It just comes quite natural to, to be able to go like, Oh, I'm kind of doing it all simultaneously.

00:27:15:13 - 00:27:39:23

Cullen

Like I'm like able to set up the shot while speaking with the actors. Well, kind of like, you know, checking the lighting and kind of building this thing. And the other thing about that is, is keeping your crew really informed as well. So because of the fact that like I would, you know, was really, really I would say heavy handed with the communication of the crew and making sure that they knew what we were doing, what the shots were, everything, you know, what the schedule was like that day, what scenes we were shooting.

00:27:40:06 - 00:27:43:09

Clark

Tell me more like when you said heavy handed. Like, what do you mean you.

00:27:43:09 - 00:28:03:09

Cullen

Mean So just lots of emails of like, like our three days tomorrow. Here is the schedule. Like, here's the scenes we're shooting there. Here's the pages of the script that that scene is going to be. Here's what the lighting setup is going to be and kind of sent them like, you know, overhead diagrams of light or whatever. So that way, even if, you know, I'm busy with an actor, I can sort of say, yeah, this is actually going to be like set up six.

00:28:03:11 - 00:28:18:00

Cullen

Yeah. So all they have to do is look at it and then I can go over, check it, kind of say, Yep, that's good, that works. Or if I need to shift something a little bit, I could do that. But yeah, it was, it was. I can see that. I can see how it would get very out of hand on like larger films especially.

00:28:18:00 - 00:28:25:04

Cullen

Right. We're talking something with like, you know, the huge amount of extras or like, Yeah, big, big set pieces but or, or.

00:28:25:04 - 00:28:52:11

Clark

Even union or even union limitations. If you got a larger crew in your union. Now there are, there are literally like rules as to what you can and can't do. Yeah, that can get pretty specific but and that's where you know I think it's still good to be hands on but you can start to delegate and then you're kind of you're passing that detailed explicit communication through to your department heads as opposed to every single individual in the crew.

00:28:52:14 - 00:28:53:14

Cullen

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

00:28:54:01 - 00:29:08:15

Clark

But it sounds like but that is one of the benefits of working so small. You know, I mean, a lot of times we talk about the limitations, but one of the benefits of working so small is that it that you can be intimate. You put together a team of people and you empower them to do a lot of things.

00:29:08:15 - 00:29:25:01

Clark

And you can have this kind of holistic approach where everything no, everybody knows everything that's going on and you're aware of every aspect of the process. And and so you could you're much more nimble in that way because everything is kind of right here in your head at that moment.

00:29:25:19 - 00:29:42:18

Cullen

And, you know, it's even things like, you know, writing the production Bible and stuff like that. Yeah. Which is a huge, you know, hundreds of pages of stuff in a binder. But being able to do that to me wasn't like a task. It wasn't something that I was like, Oh, man, now I've got to do this and I got to schedule all this and blah, blah, blah.

00:29:43:04 - 00:30:02:23

Cullen

It was very much just like a step in the process and really helped me again wrap my head around everything in a much clearer way. So that, yeah, you know, when I was scheduling, when I was shortlisting and kind of transferring the shortlist into the schedule because basically I had a master shortlist that was the chronological order of the shots in the film can only an editors list.

00:30:03:07 - 00:30:28:12

Cullen

And then I had the shot lists, you know, divided up into their locations and scenes and things like that so that, you know, on a day I could just pull out. Okay, here's the shot that we're shooting this day at this location and being able to do that and kind of know like there was a lot of times when I had schedule or put things in those smaller shot lists and then realized like, oh, that actually isn't going to work there, because in this scene we've got to put like a blood effect on somebody.

00:30:28:22 - 00:30:47:18

Cullen

And then the scene after that, he doesn't have the blood effect. So I should probably put the blood effect at the end of the day so that we can get all that stuff done. Yet rather than having to change out of costumes and change back into something that doesn't have the blood on it or whatever, it end up making it again way easier to kind of figure things out like that that I think had I not been so hands on with, it would have missed.

00:30:47:23 - 00:30:51:18

Cullen

Right. And would have just kind of, you know, they would have slept under the radar.

00:30:52:04 - 00:31:14:21

Clark

Well, I mean, it sounds to me like you worked at a you know, to be perfectly honest, you were it sounds like you worked at a higher level of planning and preparation and detail than most productions at this budget level at probably I mean, at least in my experience, like 99.9% is where you're at with your strategy, your planning, your preparation for films.

00:31:14:21 - 00:31:27:22

Clark

This budget, which which is likely why you, you know, this a huge part of why you succeeded, why you're able to shoot, you know, 90 pages in ten days and have really good luck and stuff come out of it.

00:31:29:00 - 00:31:49:17

Cullen

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is that like there's for me, rather than thinking that it's like I'm wearing a hundred hats and I'm trying to get the cinematography to look good while I'm also trying to get the performances there. I think again, being able to to do that all, I'm like, again, not to say that it was all on my own because I had tons of help from from like a really, really great crew.

00:31:49:19 - 00:32:10:07

Cullen

Yeah. But being able to again, kind of be perhaps in charge of scheduling all that and writing it out and actually, you know, figuring it out in my head to me again, kind of made it like an amalgam as opposed to, oh, you know, the cinematography is suffering because I'm working with the actors. I was able to kind of go like, No, it's all one.

00:32:10:07 - 00:32:26:15

Cullen

Like, I'm looking at this as though it's the film. And so I know that when she delivers her line like this, I want the lighting to be like that and I want the camera to move like that. And it's kind of like that way of thinking about it as opposed to, again, kind of sectioning things off and sort of going like, okay, this is what the lighting is going to look like here.

00:32:26:15 - 00:32:44:23

Cullen

I'm going to work on that for a half hour and then I'm going to go over and talk to the actors and then I'm going to go over and kind of get the camera figured out and stuff like that. And so, yeah, there was also I mean, another thing was my assistant director, I had I have a wireless video monitor, and so he was able to be on an iPad the whole time watching the shots as they played out.

00:32:44:23 - 00:33:04:09

Cullen

And so while I was, you know, if I was like working on performance, he could easily say like, hey, you can actually see the camera in the reflection in that shot for a second, or that actor in the background looked at the camera for a second. So let's retake that. And so he was kind of the logistical guy that was able to, you know, look at a shot and sort of rather than like on the creative side of it of like, oh, does it look good?

00:33:04:15 - 00:33:13:09

Cullen

Is it lit? Well, he was able to sort of point out the things that I might miss out on just because of the fact that I'm so focused on kind of the more creative stuff.

00:33:13:09 - 00:33:32:00

Clark

Well, and that's that's a really good thing to point out. I think that this is a really interesting suggestion. You know, a little little tip or trick here. Real quick. Let's focus on this that, you know, especially I mean, you're directing, you're also operating. That's a lot to put on someone's shoulders, you know, no pun intended. You know, in the moment.

00:33:32:00 - 00:34:00:09

Clark

I mean, it is right, because you're having to manage all the technical aspects and. Right. You're pulling focus to I mean, you're doing everything right. And I'm assuming it's not like you had a camera attack. You didn't have a focus puller. You're doing everything yourself. That's a lot to keep track of. And then to also be watching and paying attention to performances, paying attention to you've got the edit in your head or kind of what you you know, what you imagine the edit to be, what came before, what came after.

00:34:00:09 - 00:34:27:10

Clark

How is this going to cut in now? You're like all the technical aspects of everything that could kind of go wrong. You know, to have a second set of eyes is really vital. And I'm sure that saved your butt probably in in New York Times, I'd guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's talk about sound a little bit too, because we've not touched on that and yeah, and specifically I'm kind of interested in talking about a particular of gear that I know you used that.

00:34:27:10 - 00:34:52:17

Clark

Yes. That, that I think is pretty amazing for filmmakers. And that is the the Zoom f6. And I think you and I are actually both using that at this very moment. Are we not, to record our own audio for this? But what's unique about this device at its price point is that it is a 32 bit machine. And tell me a little bit about your experience using that for the shoot.

00:34:52:17 - 00:35:24:15

Clark

And did that. And let me back up a little bit and say that in a nutshell. One of the benefits of 32 bit is that basically its dynamic range is substantially greater than humungous. That shoots at 16 or 24 and it basically it almost totally eliminates clipping issues that you might have, which are a real problem when you have high, you know, huge differences in volume, basically from a performer or from anything that you're recording.

00:35:24:15 - 00:35:33:15

Clark

So it often happens that you can have a a tape ruined because either it was recorded it too low of a volume or too high of a volume play.

00:35:33:15 - 00:35:34:08

Cullen

And then it clips.

00:35:34:08 - 00:35:44:16

Clark

In and it can be a real challenge to keep that at the sweet spot while you're while you're recording. So tell me a little bit about that. I'm curious to that. How how did that go?

00:35:44:21 - 00:36:04:09

Cullen

Well, it was it's I mean, it's it's fantastic and even especially for performances because and so my my good friend Evan was the location sound. He's also doing the post sound. But he and he's a very talented, you know, boom operator, you know, sound recordist. So he's he's quite good at, you know, getting levels correct and stuff like that.

00:36:04:09 - 00:36:04:18

Clark

Right.

00:36:05:03 - 00:36:31:14

Cullen

But when it comes to performances for actors, there's one scene in particular that's like an argument in the the bedroom and the volumes like there's, there's very soft talking and then shouting and stuff like that. And what was great about the 32 bit float was the fact that I was able to do that. He looked at me and said, Oh, that clipped on that one line, but we know we can recover it.

00:36:31:19 - 00:36:40:09

Cullen

Yeah. So that in the it's actually the line is actually in the trailer itself which was released a few days ago, if you just look up daylight again trailer, it should be on YouTube.

00:36:40:13 - 00:36:43:01

Clark

And maybe you can find a way to link that. Yeah, but I mean, literally.

00:36:43:04 - 00:36:44:18

Cullen

But it's almost like magic.

00:36:44:18 - 00:36:45:15

Clark

It's almost like so.

00:36:45:15 - 00:37:05:07

Cullen

I when I, when I was editing it before because I, of course, didn't do the sound for the trailer, there was also. Evan Yeah. But I was able to drop that, that shot into the trailer clips like it was a really bad clip. Yeah. And, and it sounds completely fine in the trailer. It sounds like you, you know, as though the audio was was recorded at the right level the whole time.

00:37:05:07 - 00:37:35:16

Cullen

And so it's you know, it's very much for anybody who perhaps knows kind of what dynamic range is in a certain sense of a camera or if you're recording in a raw format on a camera where it's like you can essentially choose the level of gain after the fact because records at every level. So it's recording. So the file size is, of course, bigger, but you're simultaneously both recording the highest, the mids, the lows on a spectrum, which is kind of again, the evolution from older devices which used to just kind of record one high, one low.

00:37:35:16 - 00:37:54:01

Cullen

And so you kind of have a two track to choose from, but even then there could still be issues with that. Sometimes they would both clip and you're kind of sol but um, but this thing is yeah it's it's it's a really really workable like just the the the workability in post with these these files is insane just what you can do.

00:37:54:01 - 00:37:57:05

Cullen

I could right now scream into this microphone. I won't but.

00:37:57:13 - 00:37:58:12

Clark

I could take you for.

00:37:58:12 - 00:38:00:01

Cullen

Now and we could quite easily.

00:38:00:02 - 00:38:01:13

Clark

Yeah. Yeah.

00:38:01:22 - 00:38:07:14

Cullen

Even if it was right in the red, it was completely peaked. Yeah. I'm like, losing, you know, when it gets all chippy and stuff, the.

00:38:07:14 - 00:38:24:14

Clark

Data is very easily recover. Yeah, the data's actually still there. And I think, you know, for people, for when you have a small, a small team, you've got a small crew, you've got maybe one guy who's operating boom, and he's also, you know, monitoring and adjusting levels and everything. I mean, it's.

00:38:24:14 - 00:38:27:22

Cullen

On three different tracks on the boom and three dev labs.

00:38:27:22 - 00:38:45:09

Clark

Absolutely. And it's inevitable that you're going to have clipping, that you're going to have levels that are just not matched perfectly to what's going on. And, you know, especially to if you have actors who are a little bit less experienced, they're not acting from a perspective of, okay, I need to you know, I need to be careful for the sound.

00:38:45:09 - 00:38:52:04

Clark

I need to be you know, they don't have that kind of thing in mind. Oh, exactly. Because don't have a lot of experience. So there you know that even.

00:38:52:04 - 00:38:54:16

Cullen

For professional actors, it can be very freeing to not have to worry.

00:38:54:17 - 00:39:05:03

Clark

Oh, my God. Well, I was going to say, and even. Right. And in spite of all of that, I mean, to be freed up to to just go ahead and go for it saves a lot of takes and. Okay, cool. Well.

00:39:05:11 - 00:39:15:05

Cullen

I mean, it's a the other thing, too, is that it's not there are cheaper sound recorders out there. You could get 1408 times cheaper than than what this is. This is about. And at least in Cannes it was about 800 bucks.

00:39:15:09 - 00:39:16:16

Clark

Which is not bad at all.

00:39:16:16 - 00:39:39:10

Cullen

But it's not bad for that. But that's what I mean is that it's almost worth that amount of money, which is not expensive by, you know, by industry standards, it's very cheap. But I would say definitely worth that because you're going to save your butt so many times. Yeah. Working on an A budget crew where, again, like you said, the sound recordist is having to watch three separate tracks and.

00:39:39:20 - 00:39:40:04

Clark

An.

00:39:40:04 - 00:39:42:20

Cullen

Operator, the microphone is pointing the way like, right.

00:39:43:06 - 00:39:58:21

Clark

You know, it'll it'll literally save your cost in shooting fee. You know, just in the shooting cost, you will recoup your money many times over this thing. Anyway, we're not sponsored by Zoom, so everybody, this is totally objective. We don't have it there.

00:39:58:21 - 00:40:00:22

Cullen

Just it's just honestly fantastic.

00:40:01:00 - 00:40:15:10

Clark

It's it's just a device. It's a it's a piece of gear that I've recently acquired. I have not gone out in the field yet and shot with it. So I was just excited to see what Colin's experience with it was and sounds like it was awesome. So I'm I can't wait to use it on my own projects coming up.

00:40:15:10 - 00:40:21:05

Clark

Yeah. So let's talk a bit. I mean, was there anything else that you wanted to to kind of talk about with your production?

00:40:21:05 - 00:40:42:15

Cullen

I mean, I would so again, there was it was lessons learned or like, you know, again, I can share another because I keep saying that like nothing really went wrong and there were a few things that so yeah, when we got to the the the location for the house, if you live in, you know, Toronto area, you probably know Muskoka, which is about 3 hours north of Toronto And it's there's, there's definitely, you know, towns and things like that.

00:40:42:15 - 00:40:54:01

Cullen

So it's not impossible to there's there's modern infrastructure but it is you know you're out in a forest by a lake, so it's not like you can just run out the door in 2 minutes and get to a Best Buy and something at that.

00:40:54:01 - 00:40:54:06

Clark

Right.

00:40:54:09 - 00:41:01:16

Cullen

But I realize when we got there was we forgot the silver cable. Oh, so we had labs on the actors.

00:41:01:20 - 00:41:06:01

Clark

The. Hold on. Let me back up the Zeller case. You only have one.

00:41:06:01 - 00:41:23:21

Cullen

Yeah, well, the thing is, because I thought that we have to, but I had assumed that the one that was hanging was packed. I thought that that was the backup. I thought that I'd packed one and then forgot to put the one that was hanging on my door into the bag. And so it was so we get up there and then we're like, Oh, damn.

00:41:24:06 - 00:41:42:02

Cullen

So we spent like day. We basically one of the days was only laugh. Audio wound up again working okay because the the F6 is so dynamic and it was also a pretty low dialog day. It was a lot of just just movement and stuff like that, which of course can also be, you know, very vital of a boom to capture those things.

00:41:42:02 - 00:42:01:11

Cullen

But we, we had backup mikes that were kind of less good than a boom, but still something you just kind of get scratch audio. But we wound up having to basically find this like a V store that was like a 45 minute drive away. It was the only place that we could find that was selling our cables. And so we sent one of the.

00:42:02:11 - 00:42:02:18

Clark

PR.

00:42:03:00 - 00:42:15:02

Cullen

My friends just over to get it. And yeah, but again, it's things like that where it was like an immediate well, like as soon as we realized that we didn't have an actual our cable, it was like, okay, so this is what we're going to do. If I could just move on to this.

00:42:15:08 - 00:42:40:21

Clark

It's a good time, though. It's a good time to make make a couple notes. I would I would recommend a couple of things that I always do are I have like a checklist whenever I whenever I pack my gear up, when I'm when I'm going out on location, I have a checklist. I make sure everything's there. And then, of course, when I pack up and leave, I have a checklist you reach and I make sure that I've actually packed everything because, my goodness, it's really easy to leave things behind.

00:42:41:21 - 00:43:01:01

Clark

And then the second thing is that when it comes to cables especially, I always have redundancy. You just never know when a cable's either going to magically disappear and walk away or stop or get a short or who knows what. But when it comes to cables, I have in least two and usually three or four. You know, if I need one, I have two or three.

00:43:01:01 - 00:43:08:02

Clark

If I need three, I have four or five. I always try to have extras of all that stuff because it's inevitable.

00:43:08:13 - 00:43:09:14

Cullen

That something is going to happen.

00:43:09:14 - 00:43:27:00

Clark

Something's going to happen. And it's like and this grief, you know, for for a $15 cable, you don't want to stop, you know, production. Yeah, I mean, look, we're we're all under the gun on budget and none of us have infinite money. And even though they're cables, you need a lot of them. And it really does add up to thousands of dollars.

00:43:27:00 - 00:43:31:03

Clark

But wherever absolutely possible, I definitely try to have and get as many.

00:43:31:04 - 00:43:31:13

Cullen

Yeah.

00:43:31:13 - 00:43:35:07

Clark

And just a checklist. I mean, that doesn't cost you anything. That's a piece of paper, you know.

00:43:35:08 - 00:43:38:08

Cullen

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. I have one and I was checking them off and I just.

00:43:38:11 - 00:43:39:07

Clark

Yeah, I guess it was.

00:43:39:07 - 00:43:42:20

Cullen

Just it was again, it was, it was a very stupid to just misplace like you.

00:43:42:21 - 00:43:44:06

Clark

Got lost in your muscle that had.

00:43:44:06 - 00:43:47:16

Cullen

Put, I had put one of them there and then gone. Yeah. I just put that in the bag.

00:43:47:22 - 00:43:49:13

Clark

You're mustache age. It's like I think that. Yes.

00:43:49:17 - 00:43:51:12

Cullen

Yes exactly. Yeah.

00:43:51:12 - 00:43:52:20

Clark

I just want to say, by the way, it was.

00:43:52:20 - 00:43:53:09

Cullen

Probably still in.

00:43:53:09 - 00:44:11:11

Clark

There, right? It's probably still a Oh, my gosh, there it is. That's all you've got. Like a wasted fantastic, like tombstone, like, oh, no Kilmer mustache going on right now. It's so awesome. I think that's been kind of a running joke. I think I've mentioned that at least in a couple other episodes, and the only reason that I mention it make fun of it is because I'm super jealous.

00:44:11:16 - 00:44:12:06

Clark

I to say.

00:44:12:07 - 00:44:12:14

Cullen

Honest.

00:44:12:20 - 00:44:27:01

Clark

I wish that I could I wish that I could grow a mustache like that. Awesome. I mean, any other any other stories from production? Because we still when I want to save a little bit of time to to talk about you know some of your post work so unless you I mean I guess I just.

00:44:27:07 - 00:44:42:21

Cullen

One final thing I'll say is just that it was again that that like again a piece of advice when we were doing the shoot at the house, the cottage shoot, which was five days and we had I think I wrote it down here. So we had 40 scenes to shoot in five days, the bulk of the movie to shoot about an hour.

00:44:42:21 - 00:44:51:07

Clark

Of screen time. And that's I just want to be sure that that's not setups that scenes. Yeah you had hundreds of setups in five days.

00:44:51:07 - 00:45:09:02

Cullen

And so the way that I kind of schedule that out again was like, okay, we're doing everything in the kitchen today. Yeah, we can set up the lighting for the kitchen and then, you know, it was very much a thing of like, yeah, making sure that the everything was, was set and because again, we were living at a location too, so I couldn't just, you know, leave equipment out because.

00:45:09:02 - 00:45:11:10

Cullen

We had to wake up in the morning and eat and get breakfast and.

00:45:11:11 - 00:45:11:19

Clark

Right.

00:45:12:09 - 00:45:29:20

Cullen

You know, or people had to sleep in, you know, there's some people who were sleeping on a pillow couch. And so it was like things like that. So I couldn't just leave everything set up. So I had to make sure that like, okay, this day this is our shoot location. So if you need to sit down or if you want to go get lunch or something, you can sit in the kitchen while we're shooting in the living room or we're shooting upstairs.

00:45:29:20 - 00:45:53:18

Cullen

So everyone's going to kind of be downstairs. That's kind of going to be our home base for the day. And upstairs is going to be all set and lit for for the day. But I also had in there an entirely empty day because there was one day where we had so many scenes in there was the kitchen day scene, and it's like so much of the movie takes place in like a lot of the large dialog in the movie takes place in the kitchen.

00:45:54:05 - 00:46:10:05

Cullen

And so it was so much shooting and we wound up getting to the end of the day where it was like a huge, a huge kind of big finale of the movie. And there's some effects work that has to go on. And we were all so tired and it was very, very nice to just kind of look at this.

00:46:10:06 - 00:46:24:00

Cullen

The shot list go like, Oh, we still have like six pages of shots to do. Let's just do this on the redundancy day. Like, let's just let's just push this to the reshoot day. And everyone just kind of like had a huge sigh of relief and we were all just going to sit down and get dinner and relax for the rest of the night.

00:46:24:00 - 00:46:24:06

Cullen

So you.

00:46:24:06 - 00:46:27:17

Clark

Had so much time that you were actually able, even able to say, you know, have a.

00:46:27:17 - 00:46:28:03

Cullen

Reshoot.

00:46:28:06 - 00:46:34:07

Clark

We're going to quit early. And we've got we've got a day where we can pick those up and it's, it's no, yeah.

00:46:34:17 - 00:46:43:19

Cullen

Every well, I will say every single shoot day went either ahead of schedule or exactly on schedule. There was never a point where we were behind, which was really, really nice.

00:46:44:01 - 00:46:58:06

Clark

I mean, it, it really sounds like every again, I just want to reiterate because I think it's not I don't think that it is the first or even second or third or fourth or fifth thing that a lot of, you know, first time or even second or third time filmmakers think of is how much planning has to go into this.

00:46:58:06 - 00:47:23:03

Clark

It's, you know, the glamorous part that we all kind of fantasize about is, you know, being on location and shooting and, you know, making magic in the moment right there. Right. But, you know, putting together a production bible, putting together detailed schedules, shot lists, you know, this stuff is is sometimes forgotten, I think, in, you know, first time filmmakers when they're getting things together.

00:47:23:03 - 00:47:44:08

Clark

So kudos to you, man, because I think that's a real testament to you know, that's the payoff from that really detailed, extensive planning. So, I mean, and it sounds like you because we were talking before we started recording here and you were telling me that you had at least through a good chunk of the film, you were even putting together a rough cut as you went along.

00:47:44:08 - 00:47:57:20

Clark

You had enough time to actually start to put in, you know, assemble a rough cut. Yeah, yeah. From the day shooting. So tell me a little bit. Let's transition into into post now. So you went into post-production with, what, like half the film or something? I think.

00:47:57:20 - 00:47:59:03

Cullen

I had about half an hour cut.

00:47:59:03 - 00:48:00:15

Clark

Together. Okay, so about a third.

00:48:00:18 - 00:48:18:23

Cullen

And so there was about an hour that was that was shot at the cottage that I didn't have time to edit together during those shoots. But yeah, there was about a half hour cut together. And so I was very, again, very easily able to just kind of like edit those scenes that we shot and plop them into the timeline and stuff like that.

00:48:19:06 - 00:48:40:09

Cullen

Yeah, but you know, that's one thing about editing too, is that I'm of course I'm doing it myself, which, you know, many people would often like, advise against or say, you know, you need. But the reason I'm doing it myself is kind of twofold. One of the reasons is because I kind of when I'm even writing or when I'm shortlisting, I'm already editing the movie, so I know exactly where cuts are going to take place.

00:48:40:09 - 00:48:44:17

Cullen

I know how scenes are going to cut together. Yeah, during, you know, premium, you're.

00:48:44:17 - 00:48:46:06

Clark

Watching the section in your head. Yeah.

00:48:46:06 - 00:49:02:12

Cullen

Yeah, exactly. And the second reason is that at this budget point, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, even I was paying an editor, you know, a few thousand dollars to cut together my movie. It's still so low budget that you might not get a cut back for like months.

00:49:02:12 - 00:49:02:20

Clark

Yeah.

00:49:02:20 - 00:49:18:16

Cullen

You know, I know people who have been working on short films that are 5 minutes for the last two years because every time they send it off to an editor, this isn't the fault of any editors of course they're going to prioritize all of your paying jobs. Yeah, but it's like every time they send it, it's like, you know, three months later they.

00:49:18:16 - 00:49:19:11

Clark

Get the lowest price.

00:49:19:11 - 00:49:44:16

Cullen

For some people, that works it. It's like they like kind of taking the time off of seeing it. But for me, I don't like to not necessarily waste time, but like I like to, like Herzog says, have urgency. You want to have a sense, you know, I like to be able to sit down and cut it. And so there's definitely an issue sometimes of of getting kind of lost in your own work, which can be very easy to have happen if you again, if you especially if you've written it, directed it and are now editing it.

00:49:44:21 - 00:50:02:08

Cullen

Yeah. So my you know, my kind of tricks are one is very, very simple, which is that actually when I cut together a scene, I flip the image, I mirror the image. So that's actually the opposite way. So everything's kind of backwards in the image. And what that sort of does is almost trick your brain into thinking that you're watching something new for the first time.

00:50:02:08 - 00:50:20:21

Cullen

And it's me way easier to kind of notice things that are weird or when something doesn't cut together quite well because you're kind of removes you from from the actual objectivity of it. And the second is I'm like, Oh, cut to get together something and then I'll wait a week before watching it so that I can at least kind of come away from it, not feel like my head's still in the sand.

00:50:20:21 - 00:50:21:21

Clark

Get some distance.

00:50:21:21 - 00:50:53:12

Cullen

Yeah, yeah. And then the third is obviously this is, you know, quite obvious. But but you know, if you're not, if you are editing something yourself that you shot, it's vital to get secondary opinions and be able to send that off to people. And because at that point they are kind of the, you know, the eyes that, that another editor would be so like sending something off and saying, you know, with a time code and sort of saying like, hey, can you can you make sure that when you write notes, timecode them and sort of say like this point cut that shot of, you know, 3 seconds longer or something like that or like this,

00:50:53:16 - 00:51:14:23

Cullen

this scene doesn't really it feels jarring the way these two shots cut together or this line doesn't work, cut that out. And so it can be really you know, that is I think the most important thing is getting as many secondary eyes on it as you can and then being able to go back in. So I've had one cut so far, one for complete cut that I've sent out to people and gotten feedback on.

00:51:14:23 - 00:51:38:05

Cullen

And then now I'm basically going into like had the big launch of our crowdfunding, our trailer and stuff like that, which kind of took a bit of time. But now I'm actually be able to sit down and kind of go into the second cut. After the second cut, I'll send it out again, then probably a third cut, and I'm hoping the third cut will be pretty close to picture lock at that point so that I can get the composer and the sound mix actually underway, neither of which I'm actually doing, which will be very nice.

00:51:38:05 - 00:51:39:05

Cullen

They're going to be able to step back.

00:51:39:05 - 00:52:08:23

Clark

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Who do you like to go to then? You know, I agree. I think it's probably one of the more vital things you can do are, you know, because I do I edit a lot of my own things as well for the same reasons that you just described yourself. And and you know, it is sometimes can be challenging to get some objectivity, especially for some, you know, if you're having some difficulty with the section or you're not quite sure how to solve a story issue or something, you to get other eyes on it as vital.

00:52:08:23 - 00:52:13:21

Clark

Who do you like to go to? Do you go to like some of that your your producers that are working with you.

00:52:13:21 - 00:52:14:21

Cullen

Yeah. Or do you just.

00:52:14:21 - 00:52:16:15

Clark

Go to like totally external.

00:52:16:20 - 00:52:35:21

Cullen

I try to kind of blend it. I kind of like it's always because in a state like this where the sound is like not even touched yet and it's very rough, I try to tend to stick to people who are like involved in films when the very least they can understand and sort of fill in those blanks and go like, I know that that line won't be you know, it won't sound like that.

00:52:35:21 - 00:52:54:00

Cullen

Basically, the final thing. So I've shown it to the like most of the cast and crew, not the cast or just the crew too. I know very well to kind of again, give me notes. But then, yeah, I've had a few friends who were completely uninvolved in the project, haven't seen any footage, don't even know the script, don't know what the story's about.

00:52:54:00 - 00:53:15:11

Cullen

And I've shown them just to kind of get, again, a more general like broad scope of what do they feel about the story. Doesn't make sense. Is everything clear? Yeah. And of course, what's really helpful for that is there's been points where they've sort of said, you know, like, oh, that I didn't really get that. And so I've said, well, in the final thing, there's actually going be a sound effect there.

00:53:15:11 - 00:53:36:17

Cullen

That sounds like that would that help that understanding And I'll go oh yeah I would totally of understood that way better if that sound effect was there. So can be something as simple as that like there's a little bit with a whistle in the movie and of course. No, the whistle sounds are in the movie yet, but I sort of asked afterwards, like if you heard that sound there and then heard it then again later on in the film, would it make sense to connect those two things?

00:53:36:17 - 00:53:53:23

Cullen

And they go, Oh yeah, totally, easily. I've got to connect that. So again, it can kind of help in that way of sort of being able to understand where's the weird stuff sort of falling flat or where stuff getting confusing. But also the same time is the plan I already have in place. Does it work? Yeah, You know, and.

00:53:54:10 - 00:54:15:17

Clark

And that's, that's too because I've definitely run into this on my, you know, on projects that I've been a part of, not where, you know, sometimes people have the story, you know, they've set with it themselves, you know, especially like writer directors where, you know, they've written the script, they've set with it for a long time. They directed it themselves.

00:54:15:17 - 00:54:56:13

Clark

And I mean, the story is just, you know, it's been years inside their own brain. And so it is it's literally impossible them to have objectivity about it. And they are kind of making connections in the story that that actually aren't there. And I and it's I've kind of been asked to come on kind of after the fact or, you know, I've worked in editing capacities like as an assistant or other things to come on and try to help draw these connections, try to help put that back together, because that it was kind of they were starting to realize, holy crap, you know, there's a lot of pieces of the puzzle that people aren't actually

00:54:56:13 - 00:55:07:22

Clark

picking up. But it wasn't kind of seen at the time because there was they're just kind of so involved, limited objectivity. Yeah. And you write and it's like to you it makes perfect sense. You're like, Yeah.

00:55:08:06 - 00:55:11:13

Cullen

You know exactly what the intentions are. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:55:11:13 - 00:55:21:07

Clark

It's like, well, of course this makes perfect sense. But then people, you know, totally objective audiences start to see it and they're like, I don't quite, you know, I don't quite, quite see how A and B are connected or whatever it is, you know.

00:55:21:07 - 00:55:38:07

Cullen

So and what can be great about too, about like watching it with someone completely uninvolved is seeing what moments they laugh at and what moments they get scared and stuff. And being reactive side them, watching it and sort of actually like kind of watch them watch it and sort of see, you know, okay, so great that that bit worked.

00:55:38:07 - 00:55:44:11

Cullen

And that's they laughed. There's that, that's good. Or like they got scared there so that that paid off and.

00:55:44:18 - 00:55:45:10

Clark

Absolutely.

00:55:45:10 - 00:56:04:09

Cullen

Because again it's very hard to like know if something that you're directing is scary because of course you're you're directing it or even funny. Yeah. And so so being able to actually sit down with another person who hasn't seen it and and watch them, where they react, where they laugh, or if they don't at some point, you know, can you rework something.

00:56:04:18 - 00:56:06:10

Clark

Or if they do, where they weren't supposed.

00:56:06:10 - 00:56:07:06

Cullen

To. Yes.

00:56:07:06 - 00:56:08:15

Clark

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

00:56:09:03 - 00:56:09:10

Cullen

Yeah.

00:56:09:16 - 00:56:18:18

Clark

Awesome. Well, I want you if you don't mind, if you want to, please share with everybody the location of your crowdfunding site.

00:56:18:23 - 00:56:38:19

Cullen

Yeah. Yeah. So it's on Indiegogo. So if you look up daylight again on YouTube or the date, of course, the trailers, not the Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young song. But yeah, if you look up thriller, film Daylight Again trailer, if you Google that or search on YouTube, the link to the Indiegogo is actually in the description of that video.

00:56:39:00 - 00:56:39:10

Clark

Okay.

00:56:39:20 - 00:56:47:23

Cullen

So it should be easy to find there. It's Also, if you just look up daylight again on on Indiegogo, it should be, you know, come up pretty easily. Perfect. But yeah.

00:56:48:03 - 00:57:12:19

Clark

Excellent. Well, Cullen, thanks so much for sharing some of your filmmaking experiences with Daylight Again with us. I hope that for those listening that that's been informative. It's I always enjoyed listening to other people's creative processes, how they make decisions. I still learn things to this day all the time, of course, And so it's fun for me to listen to your process.

00:57:12:19 - 00:57:26:10

Clark

Cullen But excellent. Well, I can't wait, you know, down the road a little bit as you as you move through post, we can have another episode where we talk about your adventures in post and and then I'll be excited to see the film.

00:57:26:16 - 00:57:27:20

Cullen

Yeah, I'm excited to show you. Yeah.

00:57:27:22 - 00:57:33:16

Clark

Yeah. Excellent. Fantastic. All right, Awesome. Well, thanks, everybody, for joining us. We appreciate it. Until next time.

00:57:33:17 - 00:57:35:20

Cullen

Bye bye.

Episode - 044 - My Own Private Idaho

Cullen

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I am Cullen Mcfater, one half of your hosting team, as always, joined by Clark Coffey down in Wait.

00:00:20:15 - 00:00:21:23

Clark

Wait, wait, What was my name?

00:00:22:09 - 00:00:22:23

Cullen

Oh, I said.

00:00:22:23 - 00:00:26:03

Clark

La la la. It's been I see.

00:00:26:03 - 00:00:31:13

Cullen

You know it was, it was going into the the old forties radio show that I'm doing by Clark Garvey down and.

00:00:31:22 - 00:00:53:11

Clark

I think that's pretty cool. I do like that voice, man. I do like that voice. Well, you know, it's to be fair, we can, like, pull the curtain back a little bit and expose the behind the scenes. It has been a month since you and I have recorded an episode and yeah, yeah, we actually that's been primarily because you've been shooting and you had a wonderful vacation.

00:00:54:04 - 00:00:56:05

Clark

I think what you were in, you were in Italy.

00:00:56:08 - 00:00:59:04

Cullen

I was in Sicily, Austria and.

00:00:59:11 - 00:01:11:16

Clark

Switzerland. There you go. So I had a very similar trip myself, a couple of years ago. That was it was a really wonderful places. But anyway, so yeah, it's been a month. So you've just forgotten who I am. I guess the lack.

00:01:11:16 - 00:01:13:11

Cullen

Of those from what year it is.

00:01:13:19 - 00:01:15:07

Clark

You forget what year it is and everything.

00:01:15:15 - 00:01:17:20

Cullen

Like what's the news on the horn anyway?

00:01:17:20 - 00:01:26:00

Clark

Yeah, well, I am happy to be back with you, Cullen. Like I said, it has been a month, so I'm really excited to dive in. What are we going to cover this episode?

00:01:26:01 - 00:01:35:03

Cullen

This episode, long overdue, is my own Private Idaho, the Gus Van Sant 1991 flick. One of your favorites, if I'm not mistaken.

00:01:35:07 - 00:01:36:02

Clark

It is one of my.

00:01:36:02 - 00:01:37:01

Cullen

Fav high up there.

00:01:37:01 - 00:01:59:13

Clark

Yeah, yeah. It had. I mean, you know, look favorites is always a weird term, but it's it's a film that had a big impact on me. It was a film that I saw when it was released when I was 15. And the reason that I saw it, I mean, I didn't know, you know, it's funny, I probably I probably had seen Drugstore Cowboy, which is another one of my favorite kind of pivotal films from my youth.

00:01:59:18 - 00:02:15:14

Clark

And that, of course, was was the second film directed by Gus Van Sant. He directed that right before he did this film. This is his third on, but I don't even know if I knew that. I can't remember. I don't even know if you know it at 13, 14, 15, if I don't know if I was keeping track of who directed what yet.

00:02:16:18 - 00:02:49:14

Clark

But it was River Phenix, that's who. I think his involvement in this film definitely grabbed my attention as a kid, somebody who was kind of starting to develop this idea that I wanted to grow up to maybe be an actor. River Phenix had a really, really, really big impact on me, and I think, you know, just about anybody of my generation, you know, if you watched films, if you cared about the art of acting, River, Phenix was somebody who probably had an impact on you because he was of his generation at that age, arguably the best.

00:02:50:00 - 00:03:00:10

Cullen

He was like the Mozart of that stage of action. And I mean, I don't ironically, that it was like the you know, he was kind of this this protege that was that was like a really brilliant actor. And I'd say.

00:03:00:18 - 00:03:01:11

Clark

Yeah, I think.

00:03:01:11 - 00:03:09:08

Cullen

That said so many times that it was a shame that that he he died so young and so interesting to see. No question his career turned into a major. Really See that here?

00:03:09:14 - 00:03:10:00

Clark

Yeah.

00:03:10:01 - 00:03:24:00

Cullen

Like I think that I think that you and I both agree that this film for him is a really great showcase of like where his talents could have led. Yeah. And, and but no, he's, he's great in it.

00:03:24:18 - 00:03:25:04

Clark

Yeah.

00:03:25:04 - 00:03:27:02

Cullen

So that's Reeves as well. Yeah.

00:03:27:02 - 00:03:43:21

Clark

Yeah. And I think it's a strong performance by Keanu and there's a handful of strong performances. There's some kids in here who are actual real street kids, and I think their authenticity shines through and I think they're great. And but yeah, it's so I saw the film. You know what kind of start I always like to start with.

00:03:44:03 - 00:04:04:20

Clark

We can kind of share our personal experiences with the film because I think frankly, that's that's what matters most at the end of the day, you know? But yeah, for me, I saw it. I was probably about 15, 16 when I saw the film. And like I said, I saw it because probably River Phenix, his his involvement drew me to it, but it had a big impact on me.

00:04:04:20 - 00:04:26:23

Clark

I think it was it was one of the it was a film, an early example of a film, a couple of different things. One, you know, this film is really kind of like a tone poem. You know, it's this film is not about plot. It's not about what happens next. It's quite stylized, both, and it's kind of, you know, stealing some Shakespearean esque dialog.

00:04:26:23 - 00:04:33:18

Clark

And it's a combination of, I think, three different scripts from Gus Van Sant or three different stories kind of smashed together.

00:04:34:01 - 00:04:35:16

Cullen

So we started writing it in the seventies.

00:04:36:01 - 00:05:03:09

Clark

So yeah, so it's so it's kind of it's very it's got a lot of surreal elements to it, I think. And, you know, for a 15 year old kid who's grown up in Missouri and had a pretty you know, my exposure to the world was pretty small at that point in time. This kind of showed me a couple of things, like one, like, well, film doesn't have to just be about plot, how it can be like this kind of tone poem and it can be about, you know, a feeling, right?

00:05:03:15 - 00:05:27:17

Clark

That was a huge kind of revelation to me as a kid. And it also it and this I think this film is a good example. It's one of many films that I saw as a kid and books that I read that really helped expand my horizons of empathy. And, you know, and I guess maybe this is why I'm drawn to acting and to filmmaking and storytelling.

00:05:27:17 - 00:05:52:18

Clark

But I just have an insatiable desire for the, you know, the human experience. And that is such a broad and deep thing. And I'm always wanting to learn more about people with different lives and people with different backgrounds. And, you know, this was just a really interesting story of kids who were not too much older than me, these characters, but they had such radically different lives.

00:05:53:01 - 00:05:55:19

Cullen

Yeah, I think they're like just turning 21 in the movie. Yeah. Yeah.

00:05:55:19 - 00:06:16:00

Clark

I just really it was just so I don't know, you know, it was just it just really stood out to me. Yeah. So, so yeah. And then, and then it's interesting because watching it now for this podcast here, I don't think I've seen it in maybe 20 years. So really interesting for me to see it now and kind of I have this memory of it having seen it so long ago.

00:06:16:00 - 00:06:26:19

Clark

So we can kind of as we go through this, I'll kind of talk a little bit about how watching it now as a 45 year old was different than watching it as a 15 year old. But but, yeah, what about you? What were your experiences with the film?

00:06:26:21 - 00:06:31:14

Cullen

Yeah, I mean, the first time I watched this was, um, a few years ago, 2019.

00:06:32:03 - 00:06:33:04

Clark

At my.

00:06:33:04 - 00:06:51:17

Cullen

Suggestion. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I was supposed to. I was heading down to California to do a film with you and meet up with our soldiers crew, and we were kind of sharing films back and forth with each other as to like what potential inspirations or points of, like interest might be for, you know, what we were going to do.

00:06:51:17 - 00:07:13:12

Cullen

And one of the ones that you suggested for me was this I think it was this in Drugstore Cowboy, where the two that you kind of sent up. Yeah. And yeah, I'm seeing it at the time. And again, I was immediately fascinated by the Shakespearean elements, you know, like kind of the he said that it's kind of like a amalgam of like Henry the fourth part.

00:07:13:14 - 00:07:22:12

Clark

Yeah. There's just kind of loosely based on. Yeah. Kind of pieces and snippets of Henry the fourth part one and two and I think even a little Henry the fifth. Yeah.

00:07:22:12 - 00:07:46:12

Cullen

Yes. Yeah. And I think that to me what you know again, I'd done a lot of Shakespeare in the theater program. I was in high school and kind of had a really great fascination for it. And always, you know, I've always been a fan of Shakespeare and yeah, you know, especially delivering Shakespeare and actually, you know, acting in Shakespearean works, I think is always, you know, kind of an unforgiving, forgettable experience for a lot of actors.

00:07:46:12 - 00:07:48:10

Clark

It's certainly a challenge and yeah.

00:07:48:13 - 00:07:51:10

Cullen

Oh, definitely. Yeah. To get the, the own judgment down and Yeah.

00:07:52:06 - 00:07:54:13

Clark

But just to understand it for you know.

00:07:54:13 - 00:07:56:10

Cullen

Oh yeah. Yeah. To, to get the, the.

00:07:56:10 - 00:07:58:00

Clark

The to actually understand so much the.

00:07:58:00 - 00:08:13:14

Cullen

Text down. But it was to me like it's one of those things where I, you know, I'm kind of hit or miss with a lot of like Shakespearean modern adaptations in the way that you know the Baz Luhrmann Romeo plus Juliet which you.

00:08:13:14 - 00:08:14:11

Clark

Didn't necessarily.

00:08:14:14 - 00:08:18:15

Cullen

Yeah I'm not I'm not big on that one It's very on the nose it's very much playing up this.

00:08:18:15 - 00:08:19:16

Clark

I did think it was kind.

00:08:19:16 - 00:08:32:01

Cullen

Of like this It's yeah, it's fun, but it really it really plays up this the element to the degree that kind of teeters at it. Ridiculous. Very theatrical.

00:08:32:01 - 00:08:33:02

Clark

And that's there's a.

00:08:33:02 - 00:08:55:09

Cullen

Lot of ridiculousness in this. A lot of there's a lot of theatrical elements of this movie. But I think to me, the way that it is infused within the story and the context and the like, the themes of the movie, they feel much more appropriate for that kind of thing, even though, of course, that is really just literally a Shakespearean story.

00:08:56:00 - 00:09:18:05

Cullen

This one, I think the direction is just a lot more centered on where it wants to be and where it wants to blend in those modern tones, the modern themes and modern elements of storytelling and filmmaking, and even just cultural context. With this kind of classical style of like, you know, timeless storytelling that is this, you know, very Shakespearean.

00:09:19:01 - 00:09:30:16

Cullen

The moment when they have that big, like, strange sword fight in the park, when they're all like the little pink onesies and stuff. Oh, yeah, yeah. Feels kind of like straight out of, like, you know, a number of Shakespeare plays.

00:09:30:17 - 00:09:31:19

Clark

Oh, doesn't it? Yes.

00:09:31:19 - 00:10:07:18

Cullen

Like The Taming of the Shrew, even. Yeah. And, um, but it really feels right for the movie simply because the fact that we've been enveloped in this story of just this kind of, like, these really weird characters and every character is this kind of odd study in like, a different type of person in sexuality and, you know, this, this dreamlike nature of the whole movie where because we, of course, have a character dealing with narcolepsy, that it's like there's this really interesting dynamic in the movie of like, what is real and what's like hallucinating or what's dreamt.

00:10:07:22 - 00:10:18:14

Cullen

And you know, that he doesn't give answers in terms of like editing. You'll have just moments where suddenly you're cut to this surreal image of like a house falling on a highway in the desert.

00:10:18:20 - 00:10:34:09

Clark

Right. But what a beautiful symbology of of a climate. Yes. I mean, I thought, yeah, it was I don't and I you know, I meant to look it up and I haven't. But that's clearly of course, that's not CGI in 1991. I, I, I'm curious to know exactly how they did that shot. Did they.

00:10:34:12 - 00:10:35:06

Cullen

Yeah. Yeah.

00:10:35:14 - 00:10:36:14

Clark

Maybe. But it's a.

00:10:36:14 - 00:10:54:06

Cullen

Giant crane, you know. And so then that that was kind of like the first time that I saw it. Really? Yeah, Kind of swept me up in that. And then I watched it twice for this episode. Oh, okay. And I think, again, revisiting it, I had forgotten a lot of the more stylistic parts of it that I really liked.

00:10:54:13 - 00:10:58:23

Cullen

Yeah. Even, you know, things that we'll get into later. But like the use of Tableau.

00:10:59:07 - 00:11:02:21

Clark

Yeah. Which I think is so interesting here. Yes, yes. The use.

00:11:02:21 - 00:11:19:17

Cullen

Of color. Even like it's not, it's not I would say the cinematography is by no means surreal or super stylized. It's heightened or stylized, but there's moments where they use like elements of, you know, where Keanu's face is half red.

00:11:20:05 - 00:11:22:21

Clark

And it's there's a lot of red. There's a lot of yellows.

00:11:22:21 - 00:11:45:23

Cullen

Yeah. This really deep, rich color that comes out of the film stock. And I think that it's again, it's kind of this thing where where I think the reason that I appreciate it so much and I appreciate the avant garde ness of the movie is because it feels really, really built into the actual structure of the movie. And it feels like it's it's like a part of it that that it came out of everything that was like it was an ad.

00:11:45:23 - 00:11:47:22

Clark

It's authentic. It's often. It's authentic.

00:11:47:22 - 00:11:48:05

Cullen

Exactly.

00:11:48:07 - 00:11:49:04

Clark

Yes. It's it's.

00:11:49:04 - 00:11:49:19

Cullen

Like this.

00:11:49:19 - 00:12:15:02

Clark

This was you know, this is a director working authentically and frankly, a cast and a crew. I mean, this is firing on all cylinders, right, where this isn't a calculated approach or some gimmick or some, you know, which a lot of times, I think extreme style or kind of, you know, when people attempt to kind of go in a surrealistic direction, a lot of times it feels very gimmicky.

00:12:15:02 - 00:12:32:17

Clark

It can. Yes. You know, and I don't think it does at all here. I think everything feels extremely authentic here. And and I think that really, you know, that that touches you. I think on a deep level, it goes back to why I was so moved by the film as a kid, because even as a kid, I don't know anything about film technique.

00:12:32:17 - 00:12:50:16

Clark

I mean, I you know, this is well before I ever studied film to any extent whatsoever. I've just kind of, you know, But everything worked on me, you know what I mean? I didn't it was I wasn't analytical. I wasn't in my head. It bypassed all those things. And it really worked on an emotional level for me. And that's that's the key, you know?

00:12:50:18 - 00:13:09:13

Clark

Yeah. Do the stylistic choices work emotionally? Yeah. So exactly. I mean, I think they really do here. Well, for I mean, hey, look, first of all, it's, it's I'm glad that you like the film. It's always nice when somebody you know, when I suggest a film to somebody, especially one that you know, is a little bit, you know, no different than mainstream.

00:13:09:13 - 00:13:16:03

Clark

I'm always curious to see. Well, they you know, there's a good chance that person might not like it, but it sounds like you did enjoy this film. So.

00:13:16:04 - 00:13:19:12

Cullen

Yeah, no. Yeah, I'm definitely an enjoyable rewatch. The special. Yeah.

00:13:19:15 - 00:13:44:05

Clark

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, you know, this film came out in 91 and I kind of, you know, it's trying to like, think back like put the film in some context. I think, you know, right off the bat we've got to think about the kind of the landscape of, you know, the representation of gay characters in films in 91.

00:13:44:09 - 00:14:09:18

Clark

And I think this clearly is a film that I think is considered a landmark film or really important film for gay or queer cinema. And and I think it you know, that was one of the things that stood out to me as a kid was that the film really treats these characters as just like they don't they don't martyr them, They aren't idealized.

00:14:09:18 - 00:14:21:04

Clark

They but they and they aren't stereotyped. It's like very matter of fact. And I think that's significant. But I think at the time when this film was released, there wasn't a lot of that going on.

00:14:21:12 - 00:14:24:14

Cullen

It's not it's not patronizing in the slightest. It's very and.

00:14:24:14 - 00:14:50:12

Clark

It's not reductionist. Yeah, it's, you know, it's and so, you know, even I didn't have I couldn't have articulated that, of course, when I watched the film. But I guess that's what I try to what I'm trying to say. When I said that this film was like a empathetically broadening film for me, you know, not being gay myself and growing up in Missouri and in the time in which I grew up, I did grow up around a lot of casual homophobia.

00:14:50:22 - 00:15:16:06

Clark

I mean, that's just a fact. It was and I say casual, not that it was I mean, that it was everywhere prevalent. You know, that as a straight person, that's how kids would talk. And, I mean, you know, and so it had a big impact on me in that way of opening my kind of like exercising my empathetic muscles and like, whoa, you know, there's there's like lots of different people out there.

00:15:16:06 - 00:15:18:01

Cullen

And it's not just the stereotype. Yeah.

00:15:18:02 - 00:15:36:20

Clark

And I can and I can, like, see myself here. It's like we all experience longing for love and longing for home. And I know, you know, it seems maybe ridiculous as adults, we've had it. We've got a lot more life under our belt. But, you know, a little 15 year old kid growing up in Missouri, sometimes these days can be really eye opening for you.

00:15:37:12 - 00:15:54:11

Clark

Yeah, it is. I think that's why that's one of the reasons this film is so important to me, is that it kind of helped show me and, you know, along with many other works of literature and film, how powerful art can be. So yeah, but I think it's important context. You know, I think this was a big that.

00:15:54:12 - 00:15:58:17

Clark

I think that we could definitely say that it was a landmark film in that way. Yeah.

00:15:59:02 - 00:16:09:05

Cullen

Definitely. I mean, if you look at the prior depictions of like homosexuality or even just any gender or sexuality kind of variances in film.

00:16:09:07 - 00:16:09:17

Clark

Yeah.

00:16:09:17 - 00:16:17:16

Cullen

And either you have something where it's it's used as an element of like a horror film or it's a gag.

00:16:18:07 - 00:16:18:16

Clark

Or.

00:16:18:16 - 00:16:19:04

Cullen

On the kind of.

00:16:19:11 - 00:16:20:09

Clark

The button spectrum.

00:16:20:13 - 00:16:47:18

Cullen

It's the it's this like the entire film centers around this like tragedy about that person's identity. And it's all centered like that person doesn't have an identity. It's just that that their reduced of the one that yeah yeah. And so I think that it's very true that like when you you know this film the fact that they are gay or bi or you know it's never what really specified because Keanu Reeves of course goes with with both.

00:16:47:21 - 00:17:10:09

Cullen

Yeah. Or even some cases it's almost hinted that it's just kind of like an element of like making money and but you never, you know, it's never something that is, that is like, again, patronized or, you know, it's never like centered on in such a degree where it just feels like it's preaching. Yeah. And I think that that really makes it much more authentic.

00:17:10:09 - 00:17:31:10

Cullen

It makes it much real realistic. And yeah, it makes it easier to just I think it relate, you know, to this, this, this really again, you just kind of feel what the characters are feeling, um, in a way that kind of surpasses that, that one sticking point that a lot of other movies would really really.

00:17:31:15 - 00:18:06:06

Clark

We've had and that you and I talked a little bit, you know, before we started recording of some examples of, you know, kind of these Oscar bait films. Oftentimes they're biopics, it seems that, you know, we find a lot of this in the opposite of what we're describing. For my own Private Idaho. We see the opposite of that a lot of times in these biopics where, you know, characters are they're reduced, and the complexity and nuance of their humanity is, you know, is is just taken away and they're turned into martyrs or they're turned in, you know, and it's just it it's it's just unpleasant to see.

00:18:06:06 - 00:18:11:23

Clark

I don't it's not interesting. And I feel like it's insulting to the real human beings. These films are about, you know, these.

00:18:11:23 - 00:18:27:00

Cullen

Well, it's I think it's one of those things, too, for me that that really, you know, a more recent example of a movie that I think does it really well and is honestly similar ish in subject matter to my own Private Idaho is Moonlight, which I have not seen.

00:18:27:00 - 00:18:27:17

Clark

Unfortunately.

00:18:27:17 - 00:19:01:01

Cullen

I what I liked about that and what I like about this is that it like the characters still, you know they're flawed. They're they're human. They are you know it's a story about somebody. It's not a story about, you know, And I think and I just think I can see to me why this would have been such a breath of fresh air for, you know, the gay community or even just like a gay kid growing up, just just thinking like it's about time that there's something that comes out where it's it's it's a happenstance part of their personality.

00:19:01:01 - 00:19:13:09

Cullen

And it's not just about, you know, X, Y and Z aspects of their. And I think that that's, you know, exactly what you're saying. There's so many biopics that come out that are just about the one element in this person's.

00:19:13:09 - 00:19:15:16

Clark

Mind element like handicap or their sex.

00:19:15:16 - 00:19:16:02

Cullen

And it just.

00:19:16:02 - 00:19:16:12

Clark

Becomes.

00:19:17:02 - 00:19:18:13

Cullen

Yeah. And it just becomes.

00:19:18:19 - 00:19:20:06

Clark

Those things are all important like.

00:19:20:06 - 00:19:47:18

Cullen

Don't vary but also very often done by people who either aren't gay or aren't trans or aren't, you know, that it's like this this like Pat on the back. Right. Was of course because this is a gay man and so. Right. Really I think that's I mean undoubtedly that's where a lot of the authenticity comes from, where he doesn't feel the need to pander, He doesn't feel the need to give this like heartfelt, you know, martyrdom to these characters.

00:19:47:18 - 00:20:01:21

Cullen

He can just make these characters be real, what he experience all around. And I think you feel that exuded throughout the whole movie, even if Gus Van Sant wasn't actually, you know, a you know, a male prostitute or whatever.

00:20:01:21 - 00:20:10:15

Clark

Sure. No, I think I think I think I pretty sure that he did not have that experience. And yeah, I think he actually grew up with quite a bit of money. I think his family.

00:20:10:22 - 00:20:34:16

Cullen

Was the other wealthy, well-to-do and and so you still get this idea of where like how deep identity can go for somebody and how if you actually play that authentically and you just put that into the movie as as what it would be and what it feels like to be that character and that these characters aren't stereotypes. They're not you know, they're not caricatures of, of what paradigm, especially when imagine a gay person was.

00:20:35:06 - 00:20:50:06

Cullen

It goes a long way. And I think that you if anything, you're a testament to that being 15 and I mean because even when I was 15 or maybe a little bit younger, but when I was like in middle school, there was still at that point, still a lot of casual homophobia and in like just culture at that time.

00:20:50:06 - 00:21:04:04

Cullen

And, you know, that's like the mid to late 2000s. And there was still, you know, you could go to a movie and there would still be plenty of jokes at that any marginalized groups expanse and yes so I think the fact that this movie without.

00:21:04:04 - 00:21:04:12

Clark

Thought.

00:21:04:12 - 00:21:19:22

Cullen

Convincing a 15 year old kid in rural Missouri to have empathy for, you know, towards people that I'm sure that you had probably I'm sure that in passing you'd probably run into gay people, but that weren't out right. That was very much it.

00:21:19:22 - 00:21:22:20

Clark

Was not with the movie because at that point in my life, Right.

00:21:22:20 - 00:21:40:22

Cullen

Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's a testament to this movie's authenticity and the far reach of just being taken out of authenticity to a point where it's it's, it's just it exudes itself in the film itself. And that story and the characters rather than again, being preachy. Yeah, I think the wonderful kind of house, you know, it's.

00:21:40:22 - 00:22:01:19

Clark

A wonderful power that art can have. Yeah. So yeah, well, I, you know, and there's other like, and I think that's probably one of the most significant kind of contextual, you know, pieces about the film. But there's like in a totally different way, kind of a fun kind of context for me. I just like kind of personally totally different direction than that.

00:22:01:19 - 00:22:10:09

Clark

But, you know, like I said, I was a big fan of River Phoenix's and we're kind of talk a little bit more about performances and the people in the film. But Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Yes.

00:22:11:03 - 00:22:11:09

Cullen

Yeah.

00:22:11:10 - 00:22:23:23

Clark

He's actually in this film And McFly Yeah, he was in a handful of films. Exactly right. Back to the Future. But he was in a handful of films. I mean, I think over his whole career he's been in a he's still in it.

00:22:23:23 - 00:22:26:11

Cullen

He was in the Edgar Wright movie a few years. Yeah.

00:22:26:11 - 00:22:38:22

Clark

Yeah. But, you know, but it's like, but Flea's in it. And of course, Flea was in the Red Hot Chili Peppers and of course their guitarist and I probably mispronounce this. I think it's Frusciante. Is it Frusciante or Frusciante?

00:22:39:18 - 00:22:40:19

Cullen

Yeah. Something. Yeah.

00:22:41:04 - 00:23:03:00

Clark

But John is the guitarist in that band, and I happened to be actually, I'm not a super huge Red Hot Chili Peppers fan, but I am a very, very, very big fan of John's. And I think that he's really an extraordinarily gifted musician and guitarist and just that small plaque. If people out there, if you've not listened to any of his solo work, I recommend you check it out.

00:23:03:13 - 00:23:33:09

Clark

Really, it's quite significantly different than the Red Hot Chili Peppers anyway. But River, Phenix and Flea were friends, and so I guess River ended up getting to know John and River was even on John's. His first solo album, the Andrea la Das, and usually just a T-shirt and things actually to like EP's put together. But that's John's debut solo album and rivers on that and I think he's even in a few more pieces.

00:23:33:09 - 00:23:36:12

Cullen

Of he's in Red Hot Chili Peppers music video, too.

00:23:36:23 - 00:23:48:21

Clark

Yeah. So there's so I guess what I'm trying to say is there was like this fun little group of like clearly these are friends. They're like sharing in each other's projects. And I always thought that was kind of fun. I don't know if you find that kind of, but you know, you're kind.

00:23:48:21 - 00:23:52:09

Cullen

Of Oh, yeah, it's, it's I oh, I love I love those little kind of like collectives.

00:23:52:09 - 00:24:03:13

Clark

Yeah. Where it's almost like this little universe, you know, that's you're like and especially this is like pre-internet. And I'm like, it would be fun to kind of pick up these little pieces like, Oh, that's River Phenix on that song.

00:24:03:15 - 00:24:14:18

Cullen

It's kind of like the Mel Brooks, Richard Pryor, you know, like those like group of them, that Gene Hackman, Gene Wilder, that that all kind of they would just appear in each other's works because it's fun.

00:24:14:21 - 00:24:35:17

Clark

And it was fun to pick it out. You'd be like, Oh, there they are, you know? Yeah, yeah. So, so I thought that that was kind of fun. That was like a fun little piece for me. Just as contextually for this film. And, and of course, I had told you that I'm a big fan of Drugstore Cowboy, but let's let's go in then to, to Gus's direction and talk a little bit about that.

00:24:36:17 - 00:25:06:04

Clark

You know, I think one of the things that stands out to me pretty significantly about Gus Van Sant's direction is the Improvization. Yes. Looseness. And not just it's he definitely gave his actors a lot of room to improvise. Matter of fact, River Phenix actually completely rewrote the pivotal, important campfire scene where he expresses his actual true love and longing to be close to Keanu Reeves character.

00:25:06:10 - 00:25:28:05

Clark

But. But he actually, Gus Van Sant let River Phenix rewrite that entire scene, which I think is pretty amazing. But he also I mean, I have heard him talk about it, and you can see it in the work very loose with his with his blocking state. You know, he he would storyboard anything, kind of going back a little bit to Werner Herzog and not ever wanting to storyboard anything.

00:25:28:05 - 00:25:40:04

Clark

But you can feel that. I think not that it's not that it doesn't feel thought out, refine feels brought out and refine it. But but you do get a sense of spontaneity. You get a sense of looseness.

00:25:40:15 - 00:26:03:19

Cullen

Well, I also wanted to say on that point, too, that it's like a very rare talent to have somebody who has this improvization in their movie. So, you know, so throughout, but also at the same time that the camerawork feels collected and it feels intentional and it feels absolutely, you know, pointed like there's there's not a ton of just like hand-held going through conversation scenarios.

00:26:03:20 - 00:26:04:15

Clark

Well, there's not a lot of.

00:26:04:17 - 00:26:17:01

Cullen

Like someone's following and just like trying to keep up with the actors, It's this really neat kind of dance with the actors who are clearly improvising, but also that the camera is able to like it's you've got such skilled technicians and direction that, you.

00:26:17:01 - 00:26:17:06

Clark

Know.

00:26:17:14 - 00:26:31:18

Cullen

You can still make it seem like there's an articulated camera movement that was thought out prior while these these actors are improvising, which I think is really, really rare. And again, a really good testament to to his, you know, directional talent.

00:26:32:04 - 00:26:58:01

Clark

Well, and we actually have two people who are credited as cinematographers. We've got John Jay Campbell and Eric Allen Edwards. And I think Edwards did most of the lighting in. Campbell operated camera, I think. But but we do have two people listed. I think, you know, you're right. What I see in the work is a lack of generic camera.

00:26:58:08 - 00:27:07:01

Clark

And what I mean, generic camera. Do you see this a lot? I think in television, right, where you see just a lot of really generic over the shoulder, over the shoulder to shot.

00:27:07:06 - 00:27:09:08

Cullen

We need to capture the scene coverage.

00:27:09:08 - 00:27:29:03

Clark

Yeah, right. We're we're just a utility, I guess I kind of call it like utility shooting where it's just you got to get it done. We got to get it done. Let's get our coverage and move on. Well, you definitely don't see that in this film. I think there are sprinkled throughout the film a handful of actually quite technical camera moves or camera work.

00:27:29:03 - 00:27:57:05

Clark

And I think that, you know, putting those quite technical pieces in there, I think really helps contribute to that overall feeling that it's that it really spent some serious time in consideration. I mean, just things that kind of just come at me right now. There's a really beautiful grain shot where we come down off the roof of a building and we go through a handful of hustlers that are on the street corner into the adult bookstore.

00:27:57:12 - 00:27:58:19

Clark

Mm hmm. I think.

00:27:59:03 - 00:28:00:18

Cullen

And then Fiona was on the front cover. Yeah.

00:28:00:21 - 00:28:19:20

Clark

And. Right. And then. Well, that's another shot that we'll get to in a second because. Yeah, really cool. Yeah, but that's like a really technical, I think, you know, very choreographed, very poetic shot. You've got some interesting I mean, you've got a camera on a you know, on a motorcycle pointed up at the handlebar. It's really interesting, unique angle.

00:28:20:11 - 00:28:31:22

Clark

There's a lot of I think really, you know, clearly like very specifically choreographed shots. But then you've also got some handheld mixed in. You've got yeah, the opening shot is handheld. It's actually but.

00:28:31:22 - 00:28:54:09

Cullen

Again, it's one of those things that I always like divide handheld into two different categories. There's like the there is the the handheld, which is a choice which has a planned. You know, you've got very specific blocks and markers that you've got to hit in that handheld. And then there's the second type of handheld, which I think is, you know, the messy kind of lazy way of doing it, which is just like, yeah, we don't really want to put a camera on the tripod.

00:28:54:09 - 00:28:54:17

Cullen

So it is going.

00:28:54:18 - 00:28:56:08

Clark

Forward to save time. We want to save.

00:28:56:08 - 00:28:59:11

Cullen

Time, but it's very much the first time, like you can very much tell.

00:28:59:17 - 00:29:00:08

Clark

And it's well.

00:29:00:09 - 00:29:19:20

Cullen

Done moments that it's yeah, it's very it's very thought out. It's methodical, It's you know it's it's, it's yeah, it's like one of those things that I always admire Spielberg for being will do that as well where you know there's especially in his later films there's a lot of handheld in Spielberg's films but you can always tell that that wasn't just a choice out of laziness or saving time.

00:29:19:20 - 00:29:37:06

Cullen

It's a choice out of like, this would work here because this is the feeling of the scene. I get that a lot in this, which is that yeah, which is again, kind of my point about the improv, which is why it's so special to me that, that it does still feel so refined and that it's feels very directed in a very good way.

00:29:37:06 - 00:29:41:06

Cullen

Not, you know, not that you're like feeling it, but yeah, exactly, exactly.

00:29:41:06 - 00:30:00:15

Clark

Yeah. And, and it's interesting, you know, and it's like I mentioned the very opening it we kind of have I think this is a good example of that thoughtfulness, especially with the handheld work you've got. The movie opens on a scene with River Phenix character on the road, which is this is I mean, we haven't really talked about that so much, but this is in a way, a road movie.

00:30:00:15 - 00:30:26:08

Clark

This is kind of in the the tradition of the road film and but but he wakes up and this is a handheld shot, but it's one of the better handheld shots I've seen in a long time. And I'm pretty sensitive to handheld camerawork. I am not a fan of Shakey. I'm not a fan of just like, you know, putting movement in a shot because we want to try to give it some kinetic.

00:30:26:10 - 00:30:32:23

Clark

Yeah, you got to make it exciting. Yeah. I think you and I both I like a heavy camera. I like a, you know, a weighty camera.

00:30:33:05 - 00:30:35:08

Cullen

I do feel the intention of, like, a movie.

00:30:35:21 - 00:31:01:10

Clark

Yeah, but it's extremely well done. But. But then we bookend that the film ends with the exact same shot in effect, but this time we're on tracks and it's a double shot. And it there is you can that the contrast that they're making about where the character was when he started and where we are when we end and what we've gone through in the movie is a very conscientious choice to have a different type of shot at the end, the dolly versus the handheld.

00:31:01:10 - 00:31:05:23

Clark

But the film is it's just a small example, but the film is full of these kinds of thoughtfulness.

00:31:05:23 - 00:31:28:17

Cullen

And it's very it's like a grand approach to this, like kind of surreal, dreamlike feel the movie to like that opening shot feels very dreamlike. It feels very and you're intercutting with these like just flashes of imagery of like seemingly unrelated imagery. But you realize throughout the movie why he's thinking about those images, why they're coming up of like houses being destroyed and things like that.

00:31:28:17 - 00:31:29:00

Cullen

Well, we've.

00:31:29:00 - 00:31:30:19

Clark

Got that that time lapse. We could talk the.

00:31:30:23 - 00:31:32:00

Cullen

Time lapse photography.

00:31:32:01 - 00:31:34:09

Clark

We have some really wonderful time lapse photography.

00:31:34:14 - 00:31:34:21

Cullen

Yeah.

00:31:35:09 - 00:31:39:05

Clark

We've got I think there's some eight millimeter footage, if I'm not mistaken.

00:31:39:05 - 00:31:41:06

Cullen

It's either the the old home footage.

00:31:41:19 - 00:32:06:14

Clark

The old, like, simulated right home footage. Yeah. Where we have reverse character, you know, thinking back, trying to pull these memories of his past when he felt like he had a home and he felt safe with his mother. He's always trying to get back to that. I think that was really well done. That's it. This is really there's and there's quite a bit of it, but it's really well done.

00:32:06:20 - 00:32:09:10

Clark

We've got you'd already mentioned the tableau. I want to.

00:32:09:16 - 00:32:14:02

Cullen

Get that really interested. So yeah, there's two I think it's only used two or three times.

00:32:14:02 - 00:32:27:12

Clark

I think there's three times I think yeah we have, there's maybe I'm wrong. We have a Keanu Reeves character with the the woman that he meets in Italy. Yes. In the farmhouse. Yeah. We have the threesome with the.

00:32:27:12 - 00:32:28:08

Cullen

The German guy.

00:32:28:08 - 00:32:32:17

Clark

The German who is like fantastic. Like Karen.

00:32:32:18 - 00:32:33:23

Cullen

Oh her who don't see.

00:32:33:23 - 00:32:41:00

Clark

Her I think is hot. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I felt like there was another. But maybe I am. Maybe I'm making.

00:32:41:00 - 00:32:42:23

Cullen

Out. There might have been. I can't I Those are the two that stuck out.

00:32:42:23 - 00:32:43:19

Clark

Those are the two that stand.

00:32:43:19 - 00:33:01:22

Cullen

But it's this really interesting thing where it's like, it's like you get into this, this like, sex scene and suddenly it's just these flashes of tableaux that aren't stills, they're not freeze frames. They are. You can tell the actors are breathing. Yeah, and moving, but it's like this really interesting. And they're in these incredibly almost Renaissance painting like positions.

00:33:01:22 - 00:33:30:23

Cullen

So it's like the intermingled, beautifully arms and and beautifully lit. And, you know, again it it really exudes that kind of this this 15th century Shakespearean feeling to me of like, oh, this like artfulness. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that's kind of what I got from it is that it felt like those Renaissance paintings of just these like nude bodies that are intertwined, that are together, especially, I think the one that I thought was the most beautiful was Kiana in the the farm girl in the Italian farmhouse, because.

00:33:30:23 - 00:33:31:10

Clark

Carmela.

00:33:31:10 - 00:33:41:03

Cullen

Just had that image of of like the light coming through the window when they're standing on the windowsill. Yeah. It's like kind of embracing each other fully nude. And it's this really, really incredible.

00:33:41:03 - 00:33:41:20

Clark

And I want to say.

00:33:41:20 - 00:33:42:12

Cullen

Way to do.

00:33:42:12 - 00:34:05:11

Clark

Yeah, yeah. I want to say I don't know how you feel. I do take, like, a small digression here, but, you know, I feel 99% of the time that sex scenes in films are almost that like 99% of the time they are the opposite of sexy. They're cheesy. Mm hmm. They. I don't know. Yeah, It's like, it's. It's either they're gratuitous and it's obvious they're gratuitous.

00:34:05:21 - 00:34:08:11

Cullen

Or directors clearly feels kind of uncomfortable about, like.

00:34:08:11 - 00:34:09:12

Clark

Right. And everybody.

00:34:09:12 - 00:34:10:14

Cullen

In a way Yeah.

00:34:10:16 - 00:34:39:23

Clark

But it's so, so it was so interesting to see this extremely unique way of doing this. And in a certain sense, it's like and I think it's for the reason that you just described that it, it, I don't know, it removes us a little bit so we don't feel awkward, right? But we're allowed to kind of look at the beauty of the scene and in a way that's almost more sensual that, you know, Yeah, and I think it was extremely effective and.

00:34:39:23 - 00:34:42:10

Clark

I would consider stealing this technique at some point.

00:34:42:11 - 00:34:50:02

Cullen

So yeah, I think it's a wonderful, wonderful technique that I've literally never seen done again. I've never seen it. I haven't Yeah.

00:34:50:02 - 00:34:50:09

Clark

I mean.

00:34:50:11 - 00:35:14:17

Cullen

I agree with you. I think that like I am also not like I don't think that, you know, there's a lot of people who are like, oh, sex scenes should never be in movies because they're always tertiary. I don't think that I think that there's a lot of like very powerful statements that you can like, just like in this movie that you can make with a like sexual moment or I mean, a kind of the other end of the spectrum from this, you know, a very grounded in real like sexual moments and like Basic Instinct.

00:35:14:17 - 00:35:52:21

Cullen

I think that those sex scenes are like both incredibly like, you know, A-Rod esque, but also at the same time are very well crafted. And so it but it's kind of again, it's like the opposite end of the spectrum of like you're kind of removing all of the art house in that instant, whereas this one really embraces that kind of that very arthouse, avant garde feeling where it's like you're just getting these almost flashes of memories which to me almost feels like really, really psychological in that it's like it's like this kind of like, you know, post sexual feeling of just like these flashes of memories as opposed to, like existing in the scene with

00:35:52:21 - 00:35:54:07

Cullen

those characters as they're doing.

00:35:54:07 - 00:36:02:07

Clark

It feels more yeah, it feels more accurate to memory that that's kind of regardless of whatever the thing is that you're remembering where they're like. Like this.

00:36:02:07 - 00:36:03:03

Cullen

Adrenaline.

00:36:03:04 - 00:36:26:06

Clark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very interesting. I hadn't thought of it in that context either, but yeah, it's, I, and I've not seen this since, and I think it's a very interesting choice to not use actual freeze frame, like you said, but it's actual, you know, we've got running film, it's 24 frames per second, but we have actors posed together and they're doing their best to hold still.

00:36:26:09 - 00:36:28:04

Cullen

And it's only like 2 seconds per shot.

00:36:28:04 - 00:36:50:01

Clark

Yeah, it's maybe 3 seconds, but. But it's enough. You can see the breath, you can see. And because they're kind of contorted and in challenging positions, I would imagine just logistically as an actor, I bet, you know, some of these positions are probably hard to hold. And you can see that they're kind of struggling to do so that there's movement in their bodies, which which frankly, I think adds actually, as opposed to distracts from the technique I found.

00:36:50:01 - 00:36:51:10

Clark

Yeah. Really intriguing.

00:36:51:10 - 00:37:00:23

Cullen

No, yeah, it felt really organic like you were again it to me it felt like these like I think that if you had done freeze frame, it would have taken away that feeling of like this living Renaissance painting.

00:37:00:23 - 00:37:01:11

Clark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:01:12 - 00:37:18:17

Cullen

I think the fact that it's live, it feels like you're like seeing something in person that it's like this brilliant. Like a work of art and or even, like, not even necessarily paintings. I mean, I definitely get a lot of paintings from it, but like statues, even like marble statues embraced. Yeah. Yeah. You can be statues have come to life, but ah, well, you know.

00:37:18:17 - 00:37:40:23

Clark

Gus is it was a painter or is a painter, but I think he has a lot of painting experience and, and so it's very possible that that's maybe part of the connection for him with then. Interesting. Well let's like jump a little bit as we cruise through here to performances. We've touched on like some of this for sure, but I kind of wanted to just hit this again.

00:37:40:23 - 00:37:59:00

Clark

I mean, we've already talked about River Phenix. I think, you know, across the board. I think just about everybody agrees that this is one of, if not his best performances. And in a career that was short but quite substantial, I think when he was younger, younger Stand By Me was another one of his.

00:37:59:00 - 00:38:03:13

Cullen

Yeah. Really also had the small part in the third Indiana Jones.

00:38:03:18 - 00:38:07:21

Clark

Oh yeah. Where he played Indy and that was that exposed him to a wider audience.

00:38:07:21 - 00:38:08:15

Cullen

Huge audience.

00:38:08:15 - 00:38:36:04

Clark

Yeah, to a huge audience. But yeah I mean this was, you know, one of his last performances, one of and maybe one of his most significant and like you've already stated, I mean it, it doesn't even hint I mean it, it directly, you see like he is extremely captivating, he feels very authentic and there's just really physicality. I think one of the things that really strikes me about this performance, I'm curious if you notice or what you think was his physicality.

00:38:36:10 - 00:38:51:17

Clark

I mean, this character is narcoleptic. There's something I don't know. It's Ada how to describe it. I mean, it just it seems like so much of his acting is so perfectly conveyed through this character's physicality that he.

00:38:51:23 - 00:38:53:19

Cullen

At the vulnerability really Well, yeah.

00:38:53:19 - 00:39:01:15

Clark

It really strikes me. Yeah. And River always, I think, had had a vulnerability about him that he communicated through his work. Yeah.

00:39:01:22 - 00:39:20:22

Cullen

Yeah. And which is and it's really interesting in contrast to Keanu Reeves character who is like very confident, very you know, he's the one that's making these grand speeches and fooling with Bob Pigeon. Yeah. And like, all these, like, moments where he, you know, then he just is able to, like, go to his father and directly stand up to him and.

00:39:20:22 - 00:39:25:14

Clark

Say, well, the stakes are the stakes are radically different for the Joker. Exactly. I think he does a good job.

00:39:25:14 - 00:39:43:21

Cullen

He has a safety net of like his character. I mean, not Keanu Reeves, but he has the safety net of, you know, explaining why he's not vulnerable, explaining, you know, very much alluding to the fact that he doesn't have that much to lose. And of course, the film ends with him getting that. And it's yeah, breaking off from this lifestyle.

00:39:43:21 - 00:39:57:23

Cullen

But the but yeah, I think that Keanu I mean I mentioned this when we were having our little preliminary chat, but I had just the other night rewatched the Coppola Dracula, Bram Stoker's Dracula, which of course stars Keanu Reeves, and he got a lot of flack for that role.

00:39:57:23 - 00:39:59:01

Clark

Oh, my goodness.

00:39:59:08 - 00:40:19:12

Cullen

Yes, that's British accent. And he's not great at it. But but I actually like, really enjoyed his performance in it that this time I watched it It's like he he plays up that whole movie is so stylized and so like surreal in a way very, very you know, similar to this, like where there's just like very nothing feels real in the film like that.

00:40:19:12 - 00:40:36:19

Cullen

It doesn't bother me. And I found the same with this, where it's like, I think River Phenix is the star in terms of authenticity. But Keanu Reeves to me plays up the Shakespearean elements to like a really lovely degree. Like he's almost delivering these lines, like he's on stage and I love that. And I Oh yeah, sure, that was intentional.

00:40:36:19 - 00:40:59:14

Cullen

Like, I'm sure that Gus Van Sant likely directed him in that way to have this like really confident again, almost like the tilt of the movie where it's like this, like confident monologuing, like dance, like character who, who like, captivates the room when he's in it. And then you've got River Phenix, who's quiet and brooding. And, you know, it's very interesting this, this dynamic between the two leads.

00:41:00:02 - 00:41:06:07

Cullen

It is And it's again it's a shame that they didn't get to do more together because I think that they had a lot of really great chemistry working together as well.

00:41:06:11 - 00:41:22:08

Clark

And they were certainly friends in real life. Yeah. Yeah. You know, a little bit of the story. You know, I think they they kind of formed a pact that they would both do this film or not do this film, but that they would do it together. Yes, I know River and Keanu, they had worked on a film previously together.

00:41:22:08 - 00:41:44:16

Clark

They were friends and they kind of talked to each other into the film. And and so I think you can see that. I think, you know, there's a there is a good chemistry and yeah, you know, Keanu Reeves and I've heard even some criticisms of his performance in this film. And of course, you know, I mean, he's I think he's come around to his career to such a place now that he's fairly beloved.

00:41:44:16 - 00:41:51:09

Clark

You know, I think, you know, he has a reputation for being extraordinarily kind and generous and, real life as a human being.

00:41:51:17 - 00:41:53:16

Cullen

And from Toronto.

00:41:54:01 - 00:42:19:17

Clark

So ubiquitous. I mean, he's everywhere, you know, that that it's I think everybody just kind of loves at this point, you know, regardless of whether you think he's an outstanding actor or not. But I do think it's easy to take them for granted. And I do think that he he is good in this film. I think now another performance that's worth pointing to would be Bob, the character of Bob, played by William.

00:42:20:00 - 00:42:21:10

Cullen

Which is another interesting story.

00:42:21:10 - 00:42:23:00

Clark

Rich Air Yeah. Richard Is it?

00:42:23:06 - 00:42:24:02

Cullen

Richard Yeah, I think it's.

00:42:24:02 - 00:42:51:15

Clark

Richard Yeah, yeah. It's so William is actually a director and he had directed a film that River Phenix had been in. And so the story goes that they had already cast that role with somebody else, but that actor wasn't working. And so when they needed to find a replacement at the last minute, River Phenix had William in mind and talked him into performing this role.

00:42:52:02 - 00:42:57:21

Clark

I don't know that William had had a ton of acting experience before this. I'm not quite certain, but I do.

00:42:57:21 - 00:42:58:19

Cullen

But he's a lot of fun.

00:42:58:22 - 00:43:20:00

Clark

Yeah, Yeah, but he's a lot of fun, I think is he is absolutely great now. He has by far the most Shakespearean kind of twist and dialog of any of the other characters, but his character is absolutely fantastic and I think it's a character that you could easily miss the mark on. And it's because he's over the top, but I think he just nails it.

00:43:20:00 - 00:43:27:14

Clark

I think it's a fantastic performance. And then of course, you've got Flea and Mike. What can you say? You can't say anything bad. Oh man, I like, you know.

00:43:28:02 - 00:43:29:08

Cullen

Yeah. No, he's so much fun.

00:43:29:08 - 00:43:33:15

Clark

You got a lovely I think he always brings so much energy to everything he does.

00:43:33:15 - 00:43:34:12

Cullen

Oh, God. Yeah.

00:43:34:15 - 00:43:43:15

Clark

I mean, whether it's whether it's his music, whether it's his acting. And, you know, I read his recent autobiography and I am just like, How can you not love?

00:43:43:18 - 00:43:45:18

Cullen

I mean, yeah, I don't know anything about his personal life, but.

00:43:45:18 - 00:43:46:18

Clark

He says, I don't either I don't.

00:43:46:18 - 00:43:53:21

Cullen

Know a nice guy or he sounds like he just seems from from what I've seen and what I like look at. He just seems like he'd be like a great.

00:43:54:07 - 00:44:12:12

Clark

Great somebody. Somebody is probably going like, call us out that he's done something horrible is I don't know. But just from his just from his work, which is the only way that I know him, he definitely has a lot of energy and he brings it to this film for sure. Well, I think, you know, what else do we have to discuss?

00:44:13:20 - 00:44:15:17

Clark

Music. We can talk about that a little bit.

00:44:15:17 - 00:44:26:21

Cullen

Yeah, Just I mean, briefly, it's it's there's a really neat soundtrack on the movie. Again, you kind of mentioned that it's very Coen brothers. He almost in that one. There's one song about that, like the cattle rustling or whatever.

00:44:26:21 - 00:44:28:04

Clark

And I mean, that.

00:44:28:04 - 00:44:29:20

Cullen

Was reminded me a lot of.

00:44:30:06 - 00:44:35:20

Clark

It's Eddy Arnold, the cattle call and if I'm not a cattle call, the movie opens with this song and it just.

00:44:35:21 - 00:44:51:18

Cullen

And it comes it comes up, I think at another moment in the movie as well. I think there's one other instance where it's used. Yeah, like very briefly, but it reminded me a lot of the song in Grizzly Man that like coyotes wail right at the end. But, but it also very similar like raising Arizona.

00:44:51:20 - 00:44:56:08

Clark

Yeah it's like that yodeling like country. It's like this old country tune.

00:44:56:16 - 00:44:56:23

Cullen

Mm hmm.

00:44:57:09 - 00:45:25:19

Clark

Yeah, I and but I think, you know, again, it the music overall worked extremely well. You know, there are parts, for instance that that yodeling song that kind of brings us really quickly into this surreal world. But there's also some like there's Madonna, there's Elton John, there's Pogues, there's you know, there's popular music, too, that I think works really well.

00:45:25:19 - 00:45:47:18

Clark

And as a little note, too, just another small piece of trivia. There's actually so River Phenix and his sister Rain had a band, and I think it's a Lacquers attic, if I'm not mistaken. And so they had a little band together, and there's actually a song from them titled Too Many Colors in the film as well as well.

00:45:47:18 - 00:45:49:23

Clark

So River also contributed to the soundtrack.

00:45:50:14 - 00:45:51:07

Cullen

Hmm. Yes.

00:45:51:07 - 00:45:52:22

Clark

Yeah, I bet you didn't know that.

00:45:52:22 - 00:45:54:15

Cullen

So did the the German guy.

00:45:55:00 - 00:45:55:21

Clark

Oh, did he really?

00:45:55:21 - 00:46:00:00

Cullen

Oh, yeah. That song that he's doing in that. Oh, yeah. They recorded that song.

00:46:00:00 - 00:46:07:02

Clark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, fine. So you tied me on that. I thought I could, like, I thought I could pull one over on you, but now you got me.

00:46:07:06 - 00:46:07:21

Cullen

And I got it.

00:46:08:03 - 00:46:27:18

Clark

In back pocket. There you go. Well, I. I really enjoyed the conversation about the film. I'm so glad you enjoyed the film, period, because that's really fun for me to share films with people and for those listening. If you've not seen the film it'd be kind of weird if you were listening to this and you hadn't seen it, but maybe that's what you've done.

00:46:28:16 - 00:46:47:12

Clark

Don't worry. It's not a film that you can spoil because there's not really any plot. Yeah So still, go check out the film, but excellent. Will Cullen, thanks as always, man. I really enjoyed our conversation and thanks to everybody out there for taking a listen. We really appreciate you and we will catch you next time.

00:46:47:13 - 00:46:50:06

Cullen

Yeah. Bye bye.

Episode - 045 - The Fly (1986)

00:00:10:14 - 00:00:18:19

Clark

However one. And welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I am one of your two hosts. Colin McFater are joined, as always by Clark Coffey. How are.

00:00:18:19 - 00:00:19:03

Cullen

You?

00:00:19:05 - 00:00:23:12

Speaker 3

I am doing fantastic, man. We had thunderstorms here last night.

00:00:23:18 - 00:00:26:08

Clark

Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a rare thing, which.

00:00:26:08 - 00:00:27:03

Cullen

Is extremely.

00:00:27:03 - 00:00:42:15

Speaker 3

Rare. I think this is the first time that it that it rained out here since maybe like January or February of this year. So, you know, like eight months or so. And yeah, so I was out running around in the street up and down the street in the rain last night.

00:00:43:19 - 00:00:45:14

Clark

Well, it right here, too. Less exciting.

00:00:45:14 - 00:00:45:19

Cullen

But.

00:00:45:19 - 00:01:12:12

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys get rain up there so. But, but yes, it was wonderful to get a little bit of rain and I miss weather having grown up in the Midwest. Of course, you know, I was used to seasons and big thunderstorms and even tornadoes, which were pretty scary. But ever since I've lived out here in Southern California for the past, whatever it's been, 15, 18 years, some odd in there, you know, it's pretty much like 78 and sunny every day.

00:01:12:12 - 00:01:17:17

Speaker 3

So I, I miss seasons and I miss weather sometimes, so. Yeah.

00:01:17:17 - 00:01:18:05

Cullen

Well, it's funny.

00:01:18:05 - 00:01:22:12

Clark

Yeah. It's it's we've had a bunch of tornado warnings this summer for some reason weirdly enough. So.

00:01:22:16 - 00:01:23:01

Cullen

Yeah.

00:01:23:15 - 00:01:33:23

Clark

But without further ado, not to harp on the weather for too long today, we're doing, uh, the the 1986 classic. You know, I would say it's a classic.

00:01:34:05 - 00:01:37:01

Cullen

The fly. The Fly Cronenberg. That's right.

00:01:37:01 - 00:01:40:06

Clark

Which is, you know, I really love this movie and.

00:01:40:13 - 00:01:41:13

Speaker 3

That's right. It's your pick.

00:01:41:13 - 00:01:43:08

Clark

I assume you do. You. You own it.

00:01:43:13 - 00:01:45:09

Cullen

Yep. I like this even to it.

00:01:45:12 - 00:02:06:20

Speaker 3

Yeah. This was. This was a pivotal film of my childhood. I don't even know. Did you know I got so much into the weather in thunderstorms? I don't know if we even took note that this is episode 45. Not that it probably really matters, but just in case, it was important for you to know. But yeah, we could kind of dive in on that dive in then on our kind of first experiences with the film.

00:02:06:20 - 00:02:36:02

Speaker 3

But you know, this in this film came out when I was ten and I did not go see it at the theater. But, you know, whatever, it took a year or two years for this thing to come out on cable TV. There's no question. That's where I saw it. I saw it many times the extraordinarily gruesome body horror, the practical effects, the, you know, vomiting on people's hands and legs and dissolving them and all that amazing stuff and teeth falling out and pulling fingernails off.

00:02:36:02 - 00:02:40:14

Speaker 3

I mean, come on, what, like 11 or 12 year old boys? Not going to love that, you know?

00:02:41:00 - 00:02:42:11

Cullen

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

00:02:42:22 - 00:03:14:10

Speaker 3

And, you know, I mean, I love science fiction and horror, and this is basically a combination of those two things. Of course, it's more we'll get into that later. But, you know, when I was 12, I didn't really see a love story or, you know, I, I really wasn't honing in on kind of the beauty and beast, you know, kind of mythic qualities of the film and wasn't really concerned too much about morality and science and, you know, all aging even because at 12 I didn't understand kind of now the things I understand about aging at 45, I didn't know that back then.

00:03:14:18 - 00:03:29:16

Speaker 3

My body was young and everything was intact. So that was even, you know, that was kind of obscured to me as well. So for me, at 12, it was just like, there's this awesome look how gross this is. So and I loved it.

00:03:30:12 - 00:03:30:21

Cullen

What about.

00:03:30:21 - 00:03:47:06

Clark

You know, I think it's great. Oh, it's funny. I saw I saw this for the first time. I was probably about 12. And I saw it at a film summer camp that I went to. We watched it there. And the reason was because we were talking about like Canadian film and stuff like that. Of course. David Cronenberg's from Toronto.

00:03:47:08 - 00:03:51:17

Clark

Yeah, movie is this movie's not like it's shot in, set in Toronto, but it's not.

00:03:51:17 - 00:03:52:11

Cullen

Is this the first.

00:03:52:11 - 00:03:57:23

Speaker 3

Canadian directed film that we've covered in the podcast? I'm just trying to kind of remember.

00:03:57:23 - 00:04:18:23

Clark

I believe so, yeah. Yeah. Which is funny because we've done a whole bunch of the ones that that kind of have related, both geographically and kind of personally to your childhood. Yeah, my own Private Idaho, which is, you know, Midwest and stuff like that. And you having grown up in in, you know, just outside of St Louis. So it's funny that we haven't, you know, this is kind of, I guess, if anything, my response to that now, now we're doing Toronto cinema.

00:04:18:23 - 00:04:38:02

Clark

So, um, but yeah, so I saw this then and we were talking about how kind of like, you know, I guess it's one of those things that, that this movie feels very Toronto to me, even though, again, it's like you see the sea and tower a few times in the background and stuff like that and just, you know, sights and stuff that I recognize, of course.

00:04:38:12 - 00:04:53:11

Clark

Yeah. But also just the feeling of it in a weird way, hard to kind of describe way just feels very Toronto, the city streets in the way that it's, you know, just I guess for lack of a better term the esthetic of it feels very, very eighties Toronto.

00:04:53:21 - 00:05:14:15

Speaker 3

Oh that's interesting to me because I yeah you know it's not something I mean obviously I didn't grow up in Toronto so you know as a child that would have not of course would have clearly not been something that spoke to me. But it definitely didn't seem like it was any place specific to me, you know, especially with so much of this film being interiors.

00:05:14:15 - 00:05:31:19

Speaker 3

And yeah, you know, it's it's not a very epic film in the sense that you you've got these big kind of sweeping landscape exterior stuff going on. It's like very kind of intimate and contained and interiors. So that's interesting to me that to you, this like, really speaks Canadian.

00:05:32:09 - 00:05:59:12

Clark

Mm hmm. Yeah. No, and it's funny because that was kind of the also the initial, um, uh, reason that we looked the film at that film camp, we were looking at kind of the way that like cities can have effects on films and you can kind of tell, I mean, like even though Toronto plays New York and plays so many different places so often because a ton of movies are shot here, um, you know, very rarely is there a movie that's actually set, you know, or like takes place in Toronto.

00:05:59:23 - 00:06:23:18

Clark

And I think that that's one of the things that you can kind of like when I'm watching this, like it's, it's quite clear to me, at least, again, perhaps it's because I grew up here that like it's not New York, it's not supposed to be anywhere else. It's it's kind of living in this this Toronto down, which I think is kind of neat for, you know, the amount of stuff that's shot in in L.A. or, you know, even, again, the Midwest.

00:06:23:18 - 00:06:26:23

Clark

We've done a few movies now that have kind of Rumble Fish.

00:06:27:00 - 00:06:27:20

Cullen

Yep.

00:06:27:20 - 00:06:51:07

Clark

And and to to kind of see a film and watch something where it's like, not only is it just a sight and, you know, seeing and things and going, I recognize that. But kind of recognizing the, the character of like a city within a movie. And, you know, it's much more clear, I'd say in other Cronenberg movies like Videodrome is like very explicitly set in Toronto and they discuss it and stuff like that.

00:06:51:07 - 00:07:07:09

Clark

It's a it's in the context of the film, whereas this film is not so specific to Toronto that it's like it couldn't take place elsewhere or something like that. Um, but again, it still kind of is neat to see a city kind of, you know, inflict itself on to a film.

00:07:07:23 - 00:07:29:07

Speaker 3

Especially when you're a kid and it's like, yeah, you love film, like you loved film as a kid. And to get to see your hometown, a place that you recognize, a place that you know in a film is a really cool thing. I mean, yeah, on the rare occasions that happened to me when I, you know, when I was a kid, like, you know, I think like one of the National Lampoon movies took place briefly in Saint Louis.

00:07:29:07 - 00:07:50:02

Speaker 3

And you can tell and I think like planes, trains and automobiles, they drive through Saint Louis or something, or they're at Lambert Airport, you know, a little pieces of moments where Saint Louis would show up in a major motion picture. And I'd be like, whoa, you know, or even in Chicago, a place that I spent time in with my parents, we'd drive up there and take weekends and stuff on occasion.

00:07:50:02 - 00:07:53:03

Speaker 3

And, you know, Ferris Bueller, when it came out, I was like, That's Chicago.

00:07:53:03 - 00:07:54:22

Cullen

Yeah, Yeah. So it's kind of yeah, As.

00:07:54:22 - 00:07:55:13

Clark

A kid, it's neat.

00:07:55:13 - 00:08:11:11

Speaker 3

Yeah, as a kid, it's neat. If you love film and you don't live in L.A., it's it's it's almost kind of makes it feel real to you, you know? At least for me, it would be like, Hey, like, you know, wow. It's that you actually, like, make movies may be all over the place. Maybe I can do this.

00:08:11:11 - 00:08:13:13

Speaker 3

You know, it kind of made me feel a little more real.

00:08:13:13 - 00:08:26:18

Clark

Exactly. And that was like a big thing about doing it. The film camp was like, oh, this is you know, this is shot. And of course, Cronenberg's from Toronto, Howard Shore's from Toronto. They went to the same high school, Lorne Michaels, SNL fame also went to the same high school.

00:08:26:18 - 00:08:27:09

Cullen

But oh, wow.

00:08:27:09 - 00:08:27:20

Speaker 3

I didn't know.

00:08:27:20 - 00:08:28:02

Cullen

That.

00:08:28:12 - 00:08:32:02

Clark

But yeah, so there's of course, Lorne Michaels, completely unrelated to this movie.

00:08:32:02 - 00:08:33:20

Cullen

But no, but that's kind of I wild thing.

00:08:34:10 - 00:08:37:07

Speaker 3

That from the same high school I mean that yeah the oh.

00:08:37:08 - 00:08:37:17

Cullen

Wow.

00:08:38:10 - 00:08:40:08

Clark

That high school has a Drake. What's the high.

00:08:40:08 - 00:08:41:03

Cullen

School. Oh my.

00:08:41:03 - 00:08:43:05

Clark

Gosh. But no and aside from there's.

00:08:43:06 - 00:08:44:04

Speaker 3

Just one high school.

00:08:44:04 - 00:08:47:08

Cullen

Geographic location famous pretty much from Yeah, pretty.

00:08:47:08 - 00:08:52:19

Clark

Much Yeah. But aside from the the actual, you know, the geographic location of the film.

00:08:52:19 - 00:08:53:04

Cullen

Yeah.

00:08:53:13 - 00:09:11:03

Clark

It's, it I also like I really think that it's, it's like a in a very good way, like a really like gross movie that the effects are incredible and that really impacted me as a kid. Sure. And just the I think the you know, we'll get into this later and we discuss kind of the direction of the cinematography.

00:09:11:03 - 00:09:16:16

Clark

But but for starters, it is very like it's not a very flashy movie. There's nothing crazy.

00:09:16:16 - 00:09:19:04

Cullen

With the outside of the effect. Yeah.

00:09:19:04 - 00:09:38:19

Clark

Yeah. Outside of the effects. Yeah. There's not like the camera's not you know, there's no elaborate oners, there's no there's some cool stuff they did which you brought up because of the beats that you saw with the motion control and stuff like that. But it's a very in terms of direction, it's very I don't want to say standard because that almost sounds like it's a complaint.

00:09:38:19 - 00:09:57:08

Clark

I think it's actually really, really well directed, but it's not flashy. Like it doesn't feel like Cronenberg is trying to prove anything, which is kind of relaxing sometimes, you know, in a strange way where it's like, you know, you can just watch a film and the director is really putting the, the importance on the the subject matter of the film as opposed to trying to show off with, yeah, you know, crazy camera effects or anything like that.

00:09:57:08 - 00:09:59:11

Cullen

So I really appreciate that direct.

00:09:59:11 - 00:10:05:16

Speaker 3

As opposed to kind of, you know, it's not a like a lyrical, meandering direction.

00:10:05:16 - 00:10:07:09

Cullen

Yes. It's like a very super.

00:10:07:09 - 00:10:07:22

Clark

Efficient.

00:10:07:22 - 00:10:10:01

Speaker 3

Super efficient and direct. Yeah. Yeah.

00:10:10:02 - 00:10:29:11

Clark

And I also, you know, I so I watched this again, rewatched this about a month ago, I'd say, and that was what made you decide that I wanted to do it for the podcast because I rewatched it for the first time in a long time and sort of thought like, you know, this is actually a really neat movie.

00:10:29:11 - 00:10:53:00

Clark

This is a like it's again, like I just said, it's really efficient. The way that the story is set up in the movie is, is kind of brilliant in my opinion, because of how simple it is. And you know, you just have this situation where it's like one line in the script will describe motivations for characters in a very natural way, which I think is brilliant, and it doesn't waste time with anything, but it also does.

00:10:53:00 - 00:10:53:21

Speaker 3

Oh my gosh, it does.

00:10:53:21 - 00:11:02:12

Clark

Pacing is is like really, you know, it's not like it's like boom, boom, boom. You getting whiplash from how quickly the movie's, you know, moving. But it doesn't it doesn't meander. It's I mean.

00:11:02:12 - 00:11:03:17

Cullen

Almost almost.

00:11:04:10 - 00:11:18:15

Speaker 3

You know, I missed one thing, though. Can I can I take like a step back and like, yeah, this is just like a funny story. So, like I said, I saw the film when I was probably 11 or 12 years old and I'd seen it who knows how many times because you know how they are on cable TV and stuff.

00:11:18:15 - 00:11:33:12

Speaker 3

They'll play it over and over and over and over. And I'm sure, you know, back then it was like we had even with cable, you might have like 25 channels or something, you know, and only one movie channel. So I probably saw the film a dozen times, but it stuck with me to the point.

00:11:33:15 - 00:11:34:07

Cullen

Where.

00:11:35:00 - 00:12:01:01

Speaker 3

When I met my when I met my wife, we weren't married at the time, but we'd started dating. And I found out that she was scared terribly by horror films. I until she told me in no uncertain terms, I better stop. I used to, like, run around the house and try to use like Jeff Goldblum's fly voice. And I would and I would be like, I'm Brundle Fly.

00:12:01:01 - 00:12:01:18

Cullen

So what you're saying.

00:12:01:18 - 00:12:03:07

Clark

Is that it's a miracle that you're married.

00:12:03:07 - 00:12:04:17

Cullen

Now? Well, it is definitely.

00:12:04:17 - 00:12:09:13

Speaker 3

A miracle that I'm married and especially married to such an amazing woman. Yes, that is true.

00:12:09:13 - 00:12:15:10

Clark

It's interesting. I would assume that that that she would also possibly like this because of her medical. You know.

00:12:15:15 - 00:12:16:03

Cullen

I, I.

00:12:16:20 - 00:12:30:07

Speaker 3

I couldn't get yet. So there's no way that I could get her to see this. She interested pieces of it when she was a kid, before I ever met her. But there's no way like it is way to grow like she is. I mean, this kind of body horror stuff.

00:12:31:04 - 00:12:33:04

Clark

That's really interesting considering that she's, you know.

00:12:33:13 - 00:12:35:06

Cullen

I don't. What, she cut surgery. Oh, yeah.

00:12:35:19 - 00:12:37:17

Speaker 3

Yeah. I mean, like, actual, real.

00:12:38:00 - 00:12:40:10

Cullen

Real gory gore.

00:12:40:10 - 00:12:55:08

Speaker 3

I guess, if you to call it that. I mean, actual real human anatomy exposed, of course, doesn't faze her at all. She actually finds it to be quite beautiful. I mean, this is what she does. She puts people back together. But this the body horror in this film. No way, dude. Yeah. I don't think.

00:12:55:08 - 00:12:59:18

Clark

Interests ever get well, you know what I mean? The next time you guys are up here, or if I'm down there again.

00:13:00:00 - 00:13:00:06

Cullen

Yeah.

00:13:01:06 - 00:13:05:10

Clark

I bet she'll do me a favor and I'll say, I really want to show you a movie from Toronto. You know, I really want.

00:13:05:11 - 00:13:07:23

Cullen

You know, there's so much I mean, so much.

00:13:07:23 - 00:13:09:16

Speaker 3

I want to sleep for a month, man.

00:13:10:21 - 00:13:11:18

Cullen

But anyway, I just.

00:13:11:22 - 00:13:24:10

Speaker 3

But that just goes to show, like, how much this film stuck. Stuck with me because I probably hadn't seen it since I was 11. So flash forward, you know, 25 years when I first meet her. And that was like one of my first ways to scare her was to be Tony Randall.

00:13:24:10 - 00:13:25:21

Cullen

Fly Oh.

00:13:25:23 - 00:13:26:08

Clark

That's really.

00:13:26:08 - 00:13:27:20

Cullen

Funny. So, yeah, so you.

00:13:27:20 - 00:13:49:08

Speaker 3

Were talking before I before I went down that path about direction. We were talking about how, how simple and kind of direct. I, I mean, I have to even, you know, to speak to that a little bit. Watching it here last night in preparation for this podcast, I was actually almost kind of jarred by how abruptly we pop into the story.

00:13:49:08 - 00:14:00:10

Speaker 3

I mean, now, like, it's literally we've we're like fade in or anything's fatal and we just like, boom, we, we like jump into the story and it's like we've got Geena Davis and.

00:14:01:19 - 00:14:03:14

Cullen

Jeff Goldblum talking and just just.

00:14:03:23 - 00:14:11:16

Speaker 3

Mid-Conversation or like right there, it's like, there's no establishing shot. We don't have exteriors. It's not like we're setting up who they are.

00:14:11:16 - 00:14:12:12

Clark

Or where they're at or.

00:14:12:12 - 00:14:16:16

Speaker 3

What's going on. It's just like, boom, we're in a conversation. These two people.

00:14:17:02 - 00:14:21:18

Clark

Yeah, we've got the opening credits, which really set the tone musically. Again, Howard Shaw does a really great job with.

00:14:21:18 - 00:14:22:05

Cullen

The very.

00:14:22:05 - 00:14:23:01

Speaker 3

Title sequences.

00:14:23:15 - 00:14:24:15

Clark

The title sequences.

00:14:24:15 - 00:14:25:14

Cullen

Is simple, a lot of.

00:14:25:14 - 00:14:44:08

Clark

Booming music, but it's but that music very rarely booms in the rest of the film, but it really sets the tone for this kind of like, tragic but also curious kind of, you know, if you haven't listened to the score of this movie, I recommend it. It's a really, really fantastic score in terms of evoking the theme and the feeling of the film.

00:14:44:11 - 00:15:02:14

Speaker 3

Yeah, Yeah. This foreboding and I got to say, you know, it's the the kind of, if you want to call it, in effect, because it's barely even that where we we have we actually have it. I mean I don't know exactly what they did. It almost kind of seems like we're looking at like an infrared or like a reverse kind of thing.

00:15:02:16 - 00:15:16:18

Speaker 3

All the people at this convention that we end up you know, starting the film into with Gina Davis and Jeff Goldblum just talking, their characters talking. But it's almost like we kind of see the movement of all of these people as insects. I don't.

00:15:16:18 - 00:15:20:09

Clark

Yeah, it's like almost like and it almost reminds me sort of like a fly vision in a way of just.

00:15:20:09 - 00:15:20:17

Speaker 3

Kind of.

00:15:20:18 - 00:15:22:06

Clark

This simple, but it's.

00:15:22:06 - 00:15:44:12

Speaker 3

Very simply done. It's just kind of like a false color or kind of like it almost like I said, it almost kind of reminded me of like a night vision camera or like an infrared. Yeah, that's not predator. Yeah, not what they did, but it kind of sort of trying to describe it. But yeah, I mean, but like I said, it's, I was almost kind of jarred, you know, because I, you know, in today's day and age, you know, our film grammar has kind of, you know, it's always evolving.

00:15:44:12 - 00:16:01:16

Speaker 3

And, you know, I think if this film were to have been made today and now maybe if Cronenberg made it, he still would make it this way today. But because he's he's pretty much does his own thing. But I imagine if, like many other directors who are working today, if they directed a film like this, I mean, we'd have some you know, we'd have almost like a teaser, right?

00:16:01:16 - 00:16:09:15

Speaker 3

Like a pre credit action scene. We'd have some kind of, you know, we'd have to have this elaborate kind of thing to set up who these characters are.

00:16:09:15 - 00:16:22:20

Clark

It's funny that you mention that because there's so I just actually recently saw in theaters the James Wan horror film, the new one Malignant, which I thought was nuts. It's very dumb, but it's honestly quite fun.

00:16:22:20 - 00:16:24:10

Cullen

It's obviously it's enjoyable.

00:16:24:16 - 00:16:35:03

Clark

But it opens on this pretty much completely unnecessary, like kind of again, like that action scene, almost like that, like that, that there's this like breakout at this lab and.

00:16:35:03 - 00:16:35:16

Cullen

The Yeah, yeah.

00:16:35:16 - 00:16:43:16

Clark

You know, and I feel like if it was done today this movie it would start with it would be like scientists experimenting on something and it would break out and kill one of the scientists and then they'd have to like, well.

00:16:43:21 - 00:16:45:00

Cullen

It probably start with a.

00:16:45:00 - 00:16:46:17

Speaker 3

Baboon. I imagine so, Yeah.

00:16:46:17 - 00:16:47:23

Cullen

Yeah, exactly.

00:16:47:23 - 00:17:11:09

Speaker 3

I call this the James Bond open because these kinds of things have made this right. This is you've got the, the like the teaser action sequence. And I totally imagine what we would have would be this like slow reveal of like the tripod or that that teleports, I mean, and we'd have the baboon in it and we wouldn't quite know what's going on, but we'd see like, Oh, there's this baboon that's going into a pod.

00:17:11:09 - 00:17:27:00

Speaker 3

What's this? And we'd have this kind of set up and it would be like super dramatic and like, you know, all this kind of and then, you know, would kind of be introduced to Goldblum's character, to Brundle. He'd be at his computer and, you know, and like, the big thing would be right, the teaser.

00:17:27:01 - 00:17:31:00

Clark

Would establish that maybe it's like funding is getting like they're like, we're going to cut your funding If you're doing.

00:17:31:14 - 00:17:37:22

Speaker 3

All the stakes and then boom, you know, we have this like big reveal that the baboons in he's teleported inside out and.

00:17:37:22 - 00:17:38:15

Cullen

We'd have, you know.

00:17:39:05 - 00:17:43:00

Speaker 3

And then it would like cut to credits or, you know, or the opening title sequence or something. I mean.

00:17:43:15 - 00:17:44:00

Cullen

Like but it.

00:17:44:00 - 00:17:44:11

Clark

Doesn't do.

00:17:44:11 - 00:17:45:10

Cullen

Any of that. Yeah. No. Which is.

00:17:45:10 - 00:17:56:10

Clark

Also funny because when I was, you know, again, I and I really like that when I was doing daylight again and when I was writing it a few of the earlier drafts, the script also had like this cold open, like this kind of big like.

00:17:56:16 - 00:17:56:22

Cullen

Yeah.

00:17:57:07 - 00:18:15:06

Clark

Scary. Almost like horror sequence at the beginning that was unrelated the rest of the film, but kind of set up like a few of the things. Yeah. And, and I, you know, wound up, wound up cutting it because I realized, okay, it's, it's not necessary. It doesn't really like, it sort of comes back, but it's not necessary. Yeah.

00:18:15:12 - 00:18:36:14

Clark

And B, I almost like starting the film as simply as possible and in almost giving people like, a taste, like, it's almost like you need I heard a really good example of it or a really good description of it, which is that you need a entry point into the fantastical. You need to start in a place where people sitting in a theater or at home are in their world.

00:18:36:14 - 00:19:01:17

Clark

With this movie, which we are at the beginning, we're just with people. Yeah. And then you need to you need to build this thing, which I think is really a good way of like sucking people in and getting people to buy the scientific element of the film. Even confident. Yeah, and but even just the, you know, the way that this movie establishes things like motive and that they're driving, Geena Davis and Jeff Goldblum are driving back to his lab after this party like this, like 5 minutes into the movie.

00:19:02:06 - 00:19:14:16

Clark

And he just has this kind of throwaway line about how, like, he feels sick in the car and that he hates transportation, he hates vehicles and stuff like that. He always gets motion sickness and it's like right there you've just established, okay, that's why he built these the telepaths, because he.

00:19:14:16 - 00:19:16:04

Cullen

That's why we all seem like such an.

00:19:16:04 - 00:19:19:09

Clark

Efficient, efficient way of of, you know, exactly. We all build.

00:19:19:15 - 00:19:23:19

Speaker 3

I mean, you know, it's like, hey, I get motion sickness, I'm going to invent teleportation.

00:19:24:00 - 00:19:24:22

Cullen

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:24:23 - 00:19:26:22

Speaker 3

Necessity is the mother of invention, of course.

00:19:26:22 - 00:19:27:10

Cullen

But yeah.

00:19:27:15 - 00:19:29:07

Clark

So I just, I think it's like really, really.

00:19:29:09 - 00:19:29:20

Cullen

A matter of.

00:19:30:02 - 00:19:51:10

Clark

Of, of like and even that, like, you don't necessarily need to have him to have a motivation for building these telepaths, but it adds this level of depth. And I actually really only notice that the second time that I was watching it when I was like, Oh that's actually such a great just line to sneak in there and kind of have like, we've just learned so much about this character instantly that he doesn't like transit.

00:19:51:10 - 00:20:00:20

Clark

So we're just like vehicles, just like moving is like it's motion sick. So that's why he's so this is like a really personal thing for him. And it kind of just adds this layer of depth to this project.

00:20:00:20 - 00:20:03:07

Speaker 3

And Cronenberg lets you make that connection.

00:20:03:13 - 00:20:04:16

Cullen

So yeah, exactly.

00:20:05:00 - 00:20:19:02

Speaker 3

Because, because I think a lot of times the way this would have maybe been handled would have been like this. Like, you know, Geena Davis character would have been like, Oh, so that's why you developed your teleportation device, huh? Like, they're like, they would have like there.

00:20:19:02 - 00:20:20:13

Cullen

Would have been a line afterwards and.

00:20:20:13 - 00:20:34:08

Speaker 3

It would have like, made it just too much on the nose, you know, It just it would have gone like that one last step where it's like, okay, yeah, You know, that often happens, but. But it doesn't happen here. Um.

00:20:34:18 - 00:20:51:05

Clark

No, no, I think it's like, really, it's just to me, that's like, that's, that's for a movie that's sufficient. That's really a great, you know, prime example of how the story is told in this movie where it's like it doesn't beat you over the head with anything. It doesn't beat over the head with themes except for Gore. Anything.

00:20:51:12 - 00:20:52:14

Clark

It but it's.

00:20:52:17 - 00:20:59:01

Cullen

Over the head with. Yeah, yes, yes, definitely. I mean, I know so incredible. GROSS out for.

00:20:59:18 - 00:21:15:01

Speaker 3

One of the things that I was surprised about, you know, obviously when I was 11, 12, when I saw this film, this was not something that that I noticed at all. I mean, obviously, I'm focused on totally different things when I'm that age. But I was surprised at how.

00:21:16:02 - 00:21:17:03

Cullen

I guess small.

00:21:18:05 - 00:21:37:04

Speaker 3

And I don't mean that in any kind of negative way, but how small the story felt, how few characters there are, how few locations there are, how I mean, it it it's you know, I think the budget was about 9 million which which definitely would have been a low budget film even then, especially for a science fiction film with a lot of special effects.

00:21:37:04 - 00:21:39:00

Speaker 3

So, you know, definitely, I'm.

00:21:39:01 - 00:21:41:02

Clark

Sure, good, good looking special and.

00:21:41:03 - 00:21:44:21

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah, we're going to get to that. Yeah, trust me. We're going to talk about the special effects.

00:21:44:21 - 00:21:45:23

Clark

Oh, yeah, That's going to be like the.

00:21:45:23 - 00:21:46:15

Cullen

Entire as a.

00:21:47:01 - 00:22:08:08

Speaker 3

Back. Because as a huge fan of practical effects myself, I mean, we are at the zenith of practical makeup effects in this film. I mean, won an Academy Award, I think Cronenberg's only for special Effects. Obviously he's doing the special effects, But I mean, the film won an Academy Award for special effects, but we're going to definitely get to that.

00:22:08:08 - 00:22:24:00

Speaker 3

But I just I was kind of surprised, you know, and it kind of falls in line with like, you know, the direct and kind of straightforward direction. It just feels I mean, almost even claustrophobic. I mean, there's very little exterior. There's very few.

00:22:24:07 - 00:22:26:07

Clark

There's like three major locations.

00:22:26:07 - 00:22:32:08

Speaker 3

We're in and they're small. There's every space is kind of tight and crowded and kind of, you know.

00:22:33:14 - 00:22:37:19

Clark

It's just like, yeah, there's like three major locations and maybe three major players.

00:22:37:19 - 00:22:59:06

Speaker 3

The plot's very simple. It's not like we have some big convoluted plot. We don't have like, like you had just mentioned a minute ago, you know, probably if we if this film were made today, you'd have like, you know, the the whoever is funding this would be part of the picture and there'd be some like outside organization putting pressure on him to get this done, you know, But there's none of that.

00:22:59:06 - 00:23:03:20

Speaker 3

Like, we don't have any there's almost no outside world. There's like.

00:23:03:20 - 00:23:08:09

Clark

Which is, which is also funny because the sequel, The Fly Two, which is directed by the visual effects guy.

00:23:08:09 - 00:23:09:07

Speaker 3

Which I have not seen.

00:23:09:07 - 00:23:22:19

Clark

Lawless. Chris Wallace That one gets into that like it's like the corporation that's funding his science project is like this big bad, you know, like thing. It's like they're like, Oh, we want the genetic. They're kind of they kind of turn into like the Weyland Corp from the Alien.

00:23:22:19 - 00:23:23:17

Speaker 3

Yeah, from Alien.

00:23:23:17 - 00:23:36:15

Clark

And, but, but this one, yeah, there's none of that. You know, the only real mentions of them is that, that they fund him and that they don't like. It's kind of almost funny that it's almost like a subversion in the way that he sort of says, like, yeah, they don't really care because I don't know.

00:23:37:02 - 00:23:53:16

Speaker 3

He just says he's like, I don't I'm not the genius. I just like, I just like, ask somebody to build me like an atom. D Molecular, like whatever, you know, it just makes up stuff. And I just and I just get parts from all these other people who are geniuses and they don't know what I'm doing. And I put it together and I made this, you know, it is it's kind of funny.

00:23:53:16 - 00:23:53:23

Cullen

The only.

00:23:54:04 - 00:24:02:20

Clark

The only other mention of the corporation in the movie is the fact that the party that they meet at right at the beginning is like that, that corporations party like they're having like a.

00:24:03:08 - 00:24:03:22

Cullen

So now they can.

00:24:04:06 - 00:24:04:17

Clark

Exhibit.

00:24:04:17 - 00:24:17:14

Speaker 3

Yeah so now that you said you mentioned the aliens franchise, I just had a thought. Can you imagine for just one moment a crossover film between the Fly and Aliens franchise.

00:24:18:07 - 00:24:20:15

Clark

Where a man or a Cronenberg alien.

00:24:21:13 - 00:24:22:17

Cullen

Or a Cronenberg.

00:24:22:18 - 00:24:31:14

Speaker 3

Alien movie? Exactly. But I was just imagining like, well, what happens if you if you combine a xenomorph and a fly? What if you.

00:24:31:14 - 00:24:34:04

Cullen

Get. Yeah. Or. Well, it's.

00:24:34:04 - 00:24:45:10

Clark

Also you know, what's funny about this movie is that there's like and I'm you know, I'm not as you know and as we've kind of spoken about I'm not a huge like I don't really go in for superhero movies or things like that but.

00:24:45:18 - 00:24:46:22

Cullen

Yeah but I find.

00:24:46:22 - 00:25:03:12

Clark

That like a movie like this, if you were to present, like superhero films in this body horror kind of way, I feel like they'd be so much more interesting, you know, like you could almost have a movie about this guy that, like, wants to turn himself into, like, like I'm the human fly.

00:25:03:12 - 00:25:04:16

Cullen

And it's like, Yeah, yeah.

00:25:05:06 - 00:25:15:23

Clark

And so which is why, you know, I think that that's one of the things where you kind of look at it and you're like, there's so many interesting ways to go with movies. And it's kind of a shame that so many movies these days are just very, very standard.

00:25:15:23 - 00:25:16:11

Cullen

None of those.

00:25:16:11 - 00:25:26:14

Speaker 3

Movies can be R-rated. So that's right off the bat, That's that's the issue there. Disney and Marvel are never going to make an R-rated film because, of course, it limits your audience. That's never, ever going to happen.

00:25:26:14 - 00:25:30:11

Clark

So nobody the exception of like the Deadpool movies, but those are more comedies anyway.

00:25:30:11 - 00:25:30:23

Cullen

So yeah.

00:25:31:05 - 00:25:44:01

Speaker 3

But they're but you're never going to have like actual, like body horror. Yes. Damage drama, like, you know, people don't really get hurt. They don't they kind of just vaporize or disappear. It's like very sanitized. You know, It's actually.

00:25:44:01 - 00:25:56:02

Clark

Kind of interesting, too, that that, you know, and I didn't even make this connection before I made that point, but that I don't know if you remember, I didn't see the movie, but in 2015, I think there was a Fantastic Four movie that came out.

00:25:56:17 - 00:25:57:06

Cullen

I did not.

00:25:57:06 - 00:26:11:05

Clark

And it was directed by Josh Trank, who did chronicle, which was like this this kind of indie sort of found footage movie about these like kids that get superhero powers. Then things go wrong. And it's almost like a metaphor for like school shootings is like the allegory of it.

00:26:11:08 - 00:26:12:00

Speaker 3

Oh, interesting.

00:26:12:13 - 00:26:30:05

Clark

And so then he wound up doing this Fantastic Four movie, and it was it's kind of one of the famous, you know, recent examples of like horrible, horrible studio interference where, like, the studio interference was so bad that the director, Josh Trank, was like showing up drunk on set every day because it was like such a horrible experience for him and stuff like that.

00:26:30:05 - 00:26:47:03

Clark

So but the reason that the studio interference was so bad was actually because his initial pitch to do the movie was to make the fantastic Four in a fly like way. Like you actually cited the fly. And I did. I just remember that as we, you know, in the last 2 seconds when we were talking about this.

00:26:47:05 - 00:26:47:10

Cullen

Yeah.

00:26:47:12 - 00:26:58:19

Clark

But he and so which is interesting and he was like, I really want to focus on like the body horror elements is of course, the Fantastic Four. You don't know their whole thing was that like they get like radiation That's, I think most superheroes.

00:26:58:21 - 00:27:00:09

Speaker 3

All of us right? You get bit by us.

00:27:00:09 - 00:27:14:11

Clark

But like it's like they get like radiation from the sun and then suddenly they start, you know, the one guy turns into the rocks and the other the fire. And so it's like all this stuff. And he was like, I want to make this movie about these, like, people that have that happen to them where it's all about the body horror.

00:27:14:11 - 00:27:17:21

Cullen

Yeah. You know, and that's really would be right. And to me, that.

00:27:17:21 - 00:27:19:23

Clark

Would be really interesting. But the studio, of course, didn't.

00:27:19:23 - 00:27:22:12

Cullen

Want that about this first superhero. If so.

00:27:22:16 - 00:27:31:19

Speaker 3

If this were like realist like I mean if it were actually real, right? Like if something you were irradiated or poisoned or something. I mean, obviously they were.

00:27:31:20 - 00:27:33:09

Clark

Teleported with a teleporter with.

00:27:33:09 - 00:27:34:10

Cullen

A fairly teleporter.

00:27:34:10 - 00:27:56:16

Speaker 3

With the fly. And I mean, you woke up the next day and your body was like actually physically changing, morphing fast enough that, you know, it's like, I mean, it's already bad enough just the regular aging process, which, you know, obviously that's a theme in this film and it's one that I recognize now at 45 that I never recognized when I was 12.

00:27:56:23 - 00:28:21:20

Speaker 3

But I mean, this film, I mean, I'm not kidding. Like, I watched this film and it's it is like so visceral, this feeling of like his teeth falling out, his fingernails falling out. Now, obviously, I've not that had that happen to me, although I have had to head a few root canals and crowns. So I close on the teeth thing, close on the teeth thing, but I mean but like, life is I mean, there is kind of a feeling like that.

00:28:21:20 - 00:28:40:19

Speaker 3

You like look in the mirror and every day you are watching your body disintegrate slowly like it is falling apart. Your body is literally falling apart and there's nothing you can do about it. And and that's just the regular aging process. Now, if you actually happen to be unfortunate enough to to get a disease or disorder.

00:28:41:02 - 00:28:41:08

Cullen

Or.

00:28:41:13 - 00:29:07:05

Speaker 3

Are disfigured just through like trauma in life or whatever, I mean, it it you know, it's wow, man, You know, so that already happens to everyone, to all of us. Now, imagine if that happened to you over the span of like a night instead of you know, 30 years. I mean. Yeah. None of these films, actually. Yeah, none of these films actually grapple with the reality of that, you know, except for this one.

00:29:07:05 - 00:29:23:00

Clark

Yeah. And that's exactly what I mean, is that it's like it's a shame that studios are so dead set on on this, because I genuinely think that if you made a movie like that, I think that it would do really well at the box office specifically because people would be like, Holy crap, I've never seen anything like this.

00:29:23:00 - 00:29:46:12

Clark

I've never, you know, or if even if it's never, you know, not completely, entirely original in the very least, it's like this is so refreshing. Yeah. And I mean, I think it shows that a lot of movies that have a lot of, you know, craft put into them that that are well-made and and are different enough. They do tend to honestly do quite well Usually they if they're good they they you know.

00:29:46:14 - 00:30:04:09

Speaker 3

Well it's interesting it's an interesting that's an interesting concept. And I think to just you know, to bring it a little bit back more to the fly here, it's like, you know, it's funny you think about like for most of us, not all of us, but most of us, you know, the disconnect between our minds and our bodies is pretty profound.

00:30:04:20 - 00:30:31:07

Speaker 3

We don't know what's going on inside of our own bodies. Like, you know, we have no awareness of like the internal movements and mechanization inside our body, Right. Like we and we're like underneath our skin. Most of us are terrified to see our bodies or experience our bodies, right? I mean, if you're seeing your bones or your muscles or your fat or like some other part of your body, like something's gone wrong, you know, like that is not a good thing.

00:30:31:15 - 00:30:44:03

Speaker 3

And it's so weird that we're like, you know, it's this whole mind body duality kind of thing, but we're like these just walking meat bags full of, like, flesh that grosses us out. It's our own body.

00:30:44:08 - 00:30:48:18

Clark

Yeah. And that just completely self regulates itself. And it's sometimes that goes wrong.

00:30:48:18 - 00:30:51:02

Speaker 3

It's always it goes wrong eventually. I mean.

00:30:51:08 - 00:30:52:08

Cullen

All of our bodies.

00:30:52:08 - 00:31:02:10

Speaker 3

Go wrong eventually. You know, I guess I don't know if you call it go wrong because it's just the way of nature. But I mean, so it's just, you know, I think this idea of like our bodies being alien even to us.

00:31:02:18 - 00:31:03:03

Cullen

Mm hmm.

00:31:04:00 - 00:31:24:10

Speaker 3

Is is I think is it's it's so interesting to watch Brundle go through that experience here in this film as his body. I mean, that's the thing that stood out. One of the things that stood out the most to me was and maybe and this is, you know, my own kind of personal, you know, obviously my own kind of attachment to it.

00:31:24:10 - 00:31:43:19

Speaker 3

But that's where I kind of related to it the most, I think, was this feeling of like my body is like alien even to myself, even though it is me. But yeah, but is it me? You know, and we don't we don't know. We don't even, you know, the whole mind body duality kind of thing and where the seed of our consciousness is and all this kind of stuff.

00:31:43:19 - 00:32:01:10

Speaker 3

They're interesting questions, but it's like our own bodies are freaking alien to us and, and they will get more alien to you as you age and, and they will betray you ultimately in the end, I think is a really interesting is a really interesting thing to explore. And I think that.

00:32:01:10 - 00:32:02:18

Cullen

Yeah, it was overwhelming and the.

00:32:02:18 - 00:32:29:00

Speaker 3

Desperation of of of Brundle you know to he feels his humanity obviously escaping and his desperation to try to I mean he even says you know I helped me become more human or human again to the point where he's willing to put, you know, this woman that he loves her life in almost certainly be grave danger, because we've already seen how crazy things happen with teleported so.

00:32:29:06 - 00:32:48:11

Clark

Well, I mean, that's and that's what I think is a really you know, even just a kind of metaphor in this film for like disease as well, which is this this personality changing element of it where, you know, because I. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Kid in my my grandmother had cancer what type of cancer she had. But she was on like a lot of medication for it before she.

00:32:48:11 - 00:32:50:00

Speaker 3

Chemotherapy and Yeah.

00:32:50:00 - 00:32:50:04

Cullen

Yeah.

00:32:50:04 - 00:33:16:15

Clark

And it's like a completely you know they don't remember people around them and their personality completely changes and it's like the same thing with something like Alzheimer's or dementia or something like that works with your personality. And that I think is like one of the really frightening parts of this movie is just how you can see. And I think Gina Davis especially doesn't a brilliant job with the reactions to it where it's like this, this desperation to just like want to talk to the person that they used to be and knowing that that person's never coming back.

00:33:17:00 - 00:33:29:06

Clark

And you can see that like every single time she visits him after after, you know, the accident and he's getting worse and worse and worse. And then you you finally, you know, meet this person who's no longer in any.

00:33:29:06 - 00:33:32:06

Cullen

Way what was by the end was, Yeah.

00:33:32:06 - 00:33:48:13

Clark

And, and, you know, even when he's like talking to her, I think it's one of the last time she's there where she's trying to tell him that she wants to get the abortion. And he does this whole like kind of little mini monologue about like, you know, insect politics and how it's like insects are brutal and ruthless. And he's like, if you don't leave.

00:33:48:13 - 00:33:49:11

Cullen

I will I.

00:33:49:11 - 00:34:15:03

Clark

Might hurt you because he has he's losing control. Yeah. And so it's this really, really, you know, tragic Like, it actually is kind of heart wrenching on top of it. And I think that's the thing is like, I don't think this movie would be made today by a major studio. And I think if this movie was made today, it would probably be a smaller studio and they would probably focus entirely on like the gross out hot body horror stuff and throw out all the emotional.

00:34:15:03 - 00:34:17:06

Cullen

Elements of it and they'll love you like it will be.

00:34:17:06 - 00:34:18:06

Clark

Like a human centipede.

00:34:18:07 - 00:34:20:02

Cullen

Not even it would be. Yeah, Yeah.

00:34:20:03 - 00:34:52:01

Clark

Like this, like this, this, you know, or he's turning into the monster and he's going to rip people apart and kill them. Whereas I think what makes this film so tragic is that it really is. It really does, I don't know, intentional or not, harking back to kind of like the universal monster movie thing or like King Kong, where it's it's still this like tragic Beauty and the Beast kind of love story, like you mentioned, where it's, you know, there's this there's at the end of the day, you still even when he is completely transformed and and melded with the pod at the end because of you know his attempt to to Fuze himself with

00:34:52:01 - 00:35:00:09

Clark

Geena Davis goes wrong and he crawls out and he puts the gun to his head that she's holding, It's still like you're still sitting there feeling so much sympathy for.

00:35:00:09 - 00:35:01:04

Cullen

This big time.

00:35:01:12 - 00:35:29:05

Clark

It's like, oh, my gosh. And I think what's amazing is that, you know, the film's runtime is only it's only, what, about an hour and a half an hour? And it's 96 minutes. And I think that that works really in its favor, not because it's quick. And again, it never feels like it's rushing. But I think the fact is, like by the end of the movie, when it when he comes out of that pod and he puts gun to his head and, you know, the film, of course, spoilers, but she shoots them and you're sitting there and you're like, Holy crap, this just happened in like an hour.

00:35:29:15 - 00:35:34:15

Clark

Yeah, Like, I think that's what's really remarkable is that you feel the speed at which this this, this transformation.

00:35:34:17 - 00:36:00:07

Speaker 3

And that that's what focus gives. You know we were talking I mean, that's another word we used words like simple or direct or small or intimate, but focused is maybe even the best word to use the story focus. It's efficient and it's focused. And it you know, it's not worried about the scientific politics of like how he's funded and how, you know, da da da da da da da like this, like trying to worry about explaining the science of it too much or all this other crap that a lot of other movies would put in.

00:36:00:12 - 00:36:30:02

Speaker 3

It's extremely focused. It's focused on for the most part, it's this trifecta of characters, which is this love triangle and you've got this really beautiful thing that happens here, which often which is not utilized very often in films where we have kind of a love triangle. We have Seth Brundle is the protagonist in the beginning, and we have, oh, I'm going to add, it's John gets his character and I'm blanking on his name, but John gets a status.

00:36:30:02 - 00:36:39:08

Speaker 3

Yeah, that's right. It is kind of set up as the antagonist with this woman in the middle who is, you know, and he's it's like.

00:36:39:08 - 00:36:41:07

Clark

They're he's kind of like their dirtbag boss.

00:36:41:07 - 00:36:55:17

Speaker 3

Yeah, he's and it's like he's kind Amy. He's this he's, you know, rude to her and he's, you know, he's cheesy and kind of misogynistic even in like, hey, let's like, get it on, even though we're not, you know, I mean, he's like this almost like this eighties kind of corporate, you know, slime.

00:36:55:18 - 00:37:02:02

Clark

Reminds me a lot of the guy from Ghostbusters oh, what's his name? That the guy with the beard from Ghostbusters.

00:37:02:15 - 00:37:03:01

Cullen

Yeah.

00:37:03:02 - 00:37:06:14

Speaker 3

I can't think of him, but. Or maybe, like one of the guys from RoboCop.

00:37:06:14 - 00:37:10:02

Cullen

We did that. Yes. You know, one of the corporations. One of them, one of the a very.

00:37:10:06 - 00:37:11:17

Clark

Very cliched cliche.

00:37:11:17 - 00:37:31:04

Speaker 3

Yeah, Yeah. And so we've got this kind of set up, but over the course of the film and it and it's more complicated than this because I don't the it's not just that Brundle becomes the antagonist although you know in many ways he does obviously but we have gets character actually redeems himself he actually rises to the occasion.

00:37:31:04 - 00:37:53:11

Speaker 3

He actually turns from this like sleazy kind of antagonistic guy who's like fits about being left by Geena Davis. And it's clear that he deserved it. I mean it because they're they're representing him as this like, you know, not a nice guy at all and won't let her move on with her life after she's you know, she's decided I don't want to be in this relationship.

00:37:53:11 - 00:38:07:08

Speaker 3

And he keeps trying to push it. He actually sacrifices his his hand, his foot, and he saves her life. And it's just we almost have this like this really interesting reversal.

00:38:07:19 - 00:38:42:13

Clark

And it's what's interesting, too, about that is that I find like perhaps the most, you know, intriguing element of it is that it's not even like it's still like a lot of like blurred morality there, too, for sure. His you know, his motivation going in isn't super altruistic, but at least in my reading of it, it almost seems like he's just going in to kill Seth, like he comes in with a shotgun and is like, you know, like it's almost this this still taking this character who is like, like you said, misogynistic and he's sort of like going in and being like, I'm a you know, I'm going to kill the thing that just stole

00:38:42:13 - 00:38:43:14

Clark

my, like, the girl that.

00:38:43:14 - 00:38:44:21

Cullen

Belongs to me. Yeah.

00:38:44:22 - 00:39:05:10

Clark

And so it's so it's in. So you get this this element that it's like, you know, you're you're he comes in and of course, as you said, he loses his hand and his foot and and then you, you realize you're like, oh my God, this is like it's I think it's a really brilliant choice on the part of Cronenberg's because you you kind of take a, you know, almost a double take.

00:39:05:10 - 00:39:12:03

Clark

You're like, hang, am I feeling bad for the the guy who spent this entire movie trying to like, sleep with Geena Davis and saying.

00:39:12:03 - 00:39:14:04

Cullen

You definitely vomit and.

00:39:14:04 - 00:39:21:22

Clark

You're sitting there, you're like, you're like, Oh, my God, Yeah. And suddenly you realize, like, this is how bad Seth has gotten. Not well, even Seth anymore.

00:39:21:22 - 00:39:22:08

Cullen

Can I just.

00:39:22:08 - 00:39:28:09

Speaker 3

Say that it's like one of the grossest. It's like a it's a pair of the grossest scenes.

00:39:28:14 - 00:39:29:06

Cullen

In almost.

00:39:29:06 - 00:39:50:22

Speaker 3

Any movie. When. Yeah, because. Because they've set this up. Right? You've got in the beginning of the film, you know, in the beginning of Brundle transformation into Brundle fly, you see him regurgitate onto a donut. And and we all know this too. Like, it's like every kid learns that, like, flies vomit on their food to digest it. And, you know, and we all know it's gross.

00:39:50:22 - 00:40:13:17

Speaker 3

And that's why when flies land on your food, you're grossed out because you know what they're doing. It's disgusting. So we all have kind of this aversion to that already. We know that, like, diseases are spread by flies and it right here, nobody likes flies, but you've got this set up where it's like we show him regurgitating on a donut and then he even makes this video where he's like documenting.

00:40:13:17 - 00:40:33:12

Speaker 3

Now this is we don't I don't want to get too off sidetrack here, but we actually have kind of interesting thing where this was in the beginning where people were kind of, you know, camcorders were consumer, you know, video machines were available. People started recording their daily lives, their family events. This is interesting because this film is kind of at the beginning of that.

00:40:33:12 - 00:40:45:12

Speaker 3

So he's kind of making his own documentary, Right. And he's describing how during his change, he now cannot consume food by eating it. He has to regurgitate it and then eat it after it's.

00:40:45:12 - 00:40:47:06

Cullen

Been digested outside of straw. Yeah.

00:40:47:06 - 00:41:01:05

Speaker 3

So it's this whole long set up. I mean, it's this long, long, like movie long setup. And then at the end you've got him regurgitating on his hand and his foot. And it's like, oh, I mean, yeah, it gets me viscerally to this.

00:41:01:07 - 00:41:04:15

Clark

Oh, it's really. And it's like the foot's like, it's like an acid and it's melting.

00:41:05:03 - 00:41:06:10

Cullen

Oh, and it's.

00:41:06:10 - 00:41:08:13

Clark

That bit in the fingernails that really get.

00:41:08:13 - 00:41:10:06

Cullen

Me in the movie. Oh I can't while fingernails.

00:41:10:13 - 00:41:30:15

Clark

I always squirm. I can't. Yeah, yeah. But it's, but it's in, it's the effects again. Like when I say that these effects are the reason they're so visceral is because they look so real. And for a movie that was made on this budget, the $9 million budget, like even back in 86, it's incredible that that you know this is.

00:41:31:02 - 00:41:31:17

Cullen

Well it's a man.

00:41:31:17 - 00:41:35:22

Clark

Compare it like this is a movie that came out a year after back to the future.

00:41:36:02 - 00:41:36:16

Cullen

Yeah right.

00:41:36:18 - 00:41:40:17

Clark

So it's not it's not like 86 is that long ago in the grand scheme of things.

00:41:41:13 - 00:41:48:12

Speaker 3

But it is it is pre CGI obviously. Obviously it's it's about a decade before CGI would start to be well in.

00:41:48:14 - 00:41:50:12

Clark

Jurassic Park 93 kind of broad.

00:41:50:12 - 00:41:51:07

Cullen

Yeah yeah yeah.

00:41:51:10 - 00:42:11:11

Speaker 3

But but but I just want to say to this day, like I get on a soapbox here for just a second, but I watch this film and you've got a man in a rubber suit, and that's basically what it is now. It's like seven stages. I think they only used six of, you know, extraordinarily complex, you know, man in a rubber suit stages.

00:42:11:11 - 00:42:43:18

Speaker 3

And I mean, but I still think this looks better and the performance is more moving and captivating and emotive with Goldbloom, a good actor actually there, and Geena Davis actually looking at this actor who's made up in this suit and there's like a real response to real things that are really there is so much better than the green blue screen, you know, acting to a tennis ball CGI crap that we get nowadays.

00:42:44:04 - 00:42:52:04

Speaker 3

I just I mean, I feel like this is head and shoulders above that. And this is, you know, how 35 years ago.

00:42:52:09 - 00:43:02:00

Clark

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And that's what the shame is that there's so many movies like that that deal with body horror in this way like the thing and.

00:43:02:00 - 00:43:02:06

Speaker 3

Yet.

00:43:02:08 - 00:43:03:00

Cullen

Another class.

00:43:03:00 - 00:43:25:05

Clark

And every single time that they've tried to either do like a sequel or a remake or any like that even the Alien movies, the new Alien movies were they're all CG and stuff like that. There's something. So again, I don't think you can ever replicate, like you can get the most incredible skilled technicians on a computer to write the most incredible algorithms that that disperse the light, the way that real stuff would disperse a light.

00:43:25:05 - 00:43:46:21

Clark

But I think you're still missing a part of it, which is the actors and their performances. And and just the fact that I also always think it's always I can never stand the idea of people just saying what's easier because so what if it is you're not making movies like you're supposed to be having fun making movies. Why are you right?

00:43:46:23 - 00:44:01:09

Clark

It's like it's like when I'm on set, I want to I want to have I want to have a big fly puppet covered in slime. Yeah, stuff like that. Like that to me is that filmmaking is not being like, well, in, you know, in post we're going to CG this thing in because it's easier. It's like, who cares?

00:44:01:12 - 00:44:28:12

Clark

Yeah, you know, it might be easier, but is it as fun? Is it as creative as it is engaging or challenging? No, it's that that's to me is what filmmaking is about. I think Cronenberg especially has, you know, you watch so many of his movies, even his earlier films that are even lesser budget, that have, you know, none of them really like this was, of course, distributed by 20th Century Fox and produced by Brooks Films, Mel Brooks Company, which is the same company that did the The Elephant Man, which we did a few episodes ago.

00:44:28:13 - 00:44:34:03

Clark

Right. But, you know, his earlier movies where he has similar effects.

00:44:34:14 - 00:44:36:14

Speaker 3

Like scanners, the head to head.

00:44:36:17 - 00:44:57:20

Clark

Yeah, exactly. Or some of the really neat effects with the TV in Videodrome and the like, the stomach stuff and that and it's I think that you have a director, David Cronenberg, who really just likes that stuff. And I think that's why it looks so good because it's not a tool or a task for him where he's like, Oh, I've got to make this look good, because otherwise the audiences are going to like it.

00:44:58:01 - 00:45:17:02

Clark

I think part of his joy is making it look good. So he's like, Yeah, I'm going to spend as much time as I can on making this look really incredible in it that serves the movie so unbelievably well. And again, like this, if it's suddenly halfway through the transformation, you know, it's like, okay, you've got makeup, makeup, makeup, which is probably how they do it today.

00:45:17:02 - 00:45:36:15

Clark

And then suddenly it would switch to a CGI being like there would be a point where it would switch over to have a replacement. And that to me would again, it would you would feel it. You would just you would get the feeling that, okay, now, Geena Davis is looking at a tennis ball on like a stick, like, you know, you would just suddenly have this this, this feeling of, you know, okay, that's that's no longer you know what?

00:45:36:18 - 00:46:03:10

Clark

I've always also sort of said this. And I think the reason that Jaws, despite the fact the shark doesn't look very realistic or the fact that practical effects you can often tell they are practical effects. I think one of the reason that actually works in favor for movies and works so viscerally and why Jaws still works so well and why this works really well is because despite the fact that you can tell that it's a puppet or it's an animatronic or it's whatever that's part of it, it's uncanny.

00:46:03:10 - 00:46:16:08

Clark

And I think that that's what makes it scary. I think the reason that the shark shark in Jaws is scary is not because it doesn't because it looks like a real shark, but rather quite the opposite, that it doesn't look like something out of nature. It looks like a monster.

00:46:16:08 - 00:46:17:17

Speaker 3

But they wasn't there, though. But you.

00:46:17:17 - 00:46:18:17

Cullen

Can tell exactly in.

00:46:19:05 - 00:46:38:13

Clark

There. And whereas if you if you look at like a modern shark movie or a movie that has effects like this, that that are all done by CG, their focus is on doing it as realistically as possible. So new Shark Movie, they would make a great white shark look photo realistic and it's like, well that's not scary because or it's less scary because that's just something that you could see out in nature.

00:46:38:19 - 00:47:05:08

Clark

It's no longer a monster, it's just an animal. Whereas when you have things like this that are that are still there's that uncanny ness about them where it's like it's it looks real and fake at the same time. It's it's incredible makeup skills. I feel like that to me is one of the things that makes these things so unsettling is that you can't quite tell like, oh, that's that looks so organic, but it's also it moves in a way that feels really, really disgusting and uncanny.

00:47:05:08 - 00:47:19:22

Clark

And I think that that's one of the almost the strong points of, you know, the quote unquote weakness of practical effects, which is is that like, oh, it looks like rubber or whatever. I think that that honestly serves the effect in the end because it makes it uncanny.

00:47:20:06 - 00:47:34:16

Speaker 3

That's interesting. I mean, I think that the makeup and this, you know, the this Brundle butterfly effects and the suits and everything, I mean, obviously I know that they're rubber, but I really don't think that they I mean, it really.

00:47:34:16 - 00:47:36:20

Clark

Oh, yeah they're they're incredibly convincing in this.

00:47:36:22 - 00:47:58:04

Speaker 3

Every phase looks so good now obviously it's like I know that it's not real, right. But I'm there is, there is something different about my ability to suspend disbelief and be affected by, let's say, you know, the effects in this film, which are real. They're they're they're on camera. I mean, it's you know, it's even though it's a rubber suit, I mean, it's real.

00:47:58:04 - 00:48:18:08

Speaker 3

It's a real person and there's real things happening. It just seems to me that I am more able to suspend kind of my disbelief and and settle into the story and be there than if it were like in an animated object right then. And I'm not sure why that is. Exactly.

00:48:18:08 - 00:48:26:02

Clark

And there's there's movies that use CG very well. You know, there's there's movies that have have blended those, too. Again, Fincher's.

00:48:26:02 - 00:48:32:03

Speaker 3

Signature uses CGI quite well. Yeah. He uses it to augment things very subtly.

00:48:32:14 - 00:48:52:04

Clark

Yeah. And in the end, you know, again, Jurassic Park, which would have come out, you know, seven years after this, um, which, you know, kind of ushered in. It wasn't the first movie to use major CG effects. James Cameron had used them in some of his movies in the eighties. But I think that the the like you look at a movie like that where it's like, okay, you've got practical, real.

00:48:52:08 - 00:49:13:19

Clark

I mean compare the first Jurassic Park to a movie like the new Jurassic Park or something like that, where all the dinosaurs are CG or even if they are practical dinosaurs, they're all enhanced by, you know, computer effects or something like that, and they feel way less real. Whereas I think the fact that you that the CGI was used sparingly or only really used in instances where you couldn't have used anything else.

00:49:13:19 - 00:49:15:08

Speaker 3

Like the full the full body.

00:49:15:08 - 00:49:34:19

Clark

The full body, huge, you know, 50 foot tall, whatever. Right. You know, that to me is where CG like I'm not a completely anti CG person. I think that there's as with anything, there's, there's uses for every tool. However, in a movie like this, I think that had they gone the easy route which I mean if that was made today easy, it would be, of course.

00:49:34:19 - 00:49:50:13

Clark

CG As you said, I think it would lose the visceral ness. It would you lose the texture and the the the performances would suffer for it. And I think the fact that it's actually Jeff Goldblum, like, I think that the discomfort he probably felt getting in that makeup.

00:49:50:16 - 00:49:51:02

Cullen

Yeah.

00:49:51:02 - 00:50:07:02

Clark

Adds so much and I'm sure you've got the experience as well and I've got this experience is that when when I would do, you know, theater or even some film stuff where it was like the costume was really uncomfortable. Or like I remember one time I was, I was playing this old man and I, like, put cotton balls in my mouth.

00:50:07:19 - 00:50:25:06

Clark

And it was and I had this, like, really, like, uncomfortable costume on and this wig. And that to me, made my performance so much better because I was able to use that discomfort in the performance and sort of hobble in and feel like I was an old man whose back ached and to speak proper cotton in my mouth.

00:50:25:06 - 00:50:27:16

Cullen

And yeah, and Goldblum's.

00:50:27:16 - 00:50:29:16

Clark

Performance really you know plays off of.

00:50:29:16 - 00:50:30:00

Cullen

That.

00:50:30:05 - 00:50:47:21

Speaker 3

I've even had like a lot of like makeup and special effects stuff. And I did a, I had a whole thing where I had like a false eye that popped out of my head in a film that I did and had like these boils on my body that I like had to cut off. And it was like totally body humor or humor body.

00:50:48:10 - 00:50:49:10

Cullen

And also.

00:50:49:10 - 00:50:50:10

Clark

Depending on who you're talking.

00:50:50:10 - 00:50:50:23

Cullen

To, depends on.

00:50:51:03 - 00:51:18:06

Speaker 3

Talking to me. But, you know, just like this oozy, wet, you know, fleshy like body horror kind of stuff. And yeah, I mean, to have that stuff actually there makes all the difference in the world from an actor's performance because it's like, you know, you can see it, you can touch it. It's, it's, it's real. And even though it's, it's like makeup, it's like it's such a small step for your mind to be like, this is real, right?

00:51:18:06 - 00:51:33:15

Speaker 3

Just like you were saying, you know, it's like I if you're an actor and you put on a costume like, you know, it's not your clothes, but the jump to make that your your clothes is such a small one, you know. But I you know, it's just a much bigger divide to be like this tennis ball is a dragon or something.

00:51:33:15 - 00:51:34:03

Speaker 3

You know it.

00:51:34:12 - 00:51:36:00

Cullen

And it's you can do it. Yeah.

00:51:36:05 - 00:51:54:08

Speaker 3

I mean, the imagination can do all kinds of things. And there are people out there who are quite skilled at green screen acting. But I just think that, you know, in the grand scheme of things, it seems to me, yeah, practical effects seem to. Maybe it's just personal, I just prefer them and maybe that's because I grew up with them.

00:51:55:23 - 00:52:06:01

Speaker 3

It'll be exciting to see where CGI goes. Obviously this is going to it's a work in progress and they're going to continue to refine that and who knows where that's going to lead. You know that it's.

00:52:07:06 - 00:52:07:18

Cullen

We're still.

00:52:07:18 - 00:52:14:00

Clark

Some really exciting stuff with like the the augmented reality that they're doing now with the LED screens. And I think that's really neat.

00:52:14:00 - 00:52:14:08

Cullen

Right?

00:52:14:08 - 00:52:34:18

Clark

But I think that the reason that's neat is because it's kind of bring it back to the classic element of like actors being able to see where they are, what they're reacting against and stuff like that. I think that's what works for for that. And you've almost also seen kind of a renaissance of practical effects lately as well, that like a lot of the new, you know, for better or for worse, the new Star Wars movies have used a lot of practical effects.

00:52:35:07 - 00:52:49:19

Clark

And, you know, some of the the like big blockbusters have kind of brought that back, which is which is nice to see. I mean, it's not to say to like this movie, I'm sure that, you know, because they have that rotating set so that, you know, Brundle can climb on the walls.

00:52:49:19 - 00:52:50:00

Cullen

Right.

00:52:50:00 - 00:52:51:18

Speaker 3

The rotisserie, you know, And he can. Yeah.

00:52:52:00 - 00:53:16:22

Clark

So so at the end there's a there's a bit when he's on the roof or the ceiling and Geena Davis is like talking to him. Of course, that's two different sets. You know, she's standing on the one that's upright and he's he's upside down. So it's not like they shot those where she's actually looking at him. So there's always going to be a level of suspension of disbelief for the actors to be able to go, oh, of course, Like it's not like you know, it's not like when they shot that you had Jeff Goldblum on the roof when you were shooting her single.

00:53:16:23 - 00:53:38:19

Speaker 3

Oh, this even happens. This happens all the time, even when you're not, you know, I mean, it's like a lot of times depending on where you're shooting, I mean, you shoot somebody close ups and then you switch to the other side. And if, you know, let's say like you're a five line costar on a TV show and the other person is the star of the show, you may not even they may just walk off the set and you've got to like, do your lines to the air or something.

00:53:38:19 - 00:53:42:15

Speaker 3

I mean, yeah, this happens all the time. And it but.

00:53:42:15 - 00:53:52:09

Clark

Having the the, the initial, you know, even just the fact that Gina Davis knows what he was supposed to look like there, they can see that and can feel that.

00:53:52:09 - 00:53:53:22

Cullen

And oh, there are some great.

00:53:53:22 - 00:53:55:12

Speaker 3

Behind the scenes footage on the Blu.

00:53:55:12 - 00:53:55:17

Cullen

Ray.

00:53:55:20 - 00:53:57:02

Clark

Yeah, I've got to check that out.

00:53:57:02 - 00:54:19:21

Speaker 3

Yeah, I highly recommend. I mean, it's just a regular studio release. It's it's nothing fancy, but it has a wonderful commentary track by Cronenberg and it also has a, a two. I think with all the little enhancements, it's almost like two and a half hour long feature documentary film, which is fantastic. But I mean, it's it's got all these outtakes of her, you know, pulling the jaw.

00:54:19:21 - 00:54:22:07

Cullen

Off the edge, which, yeah.

00:54:22:07 - 00:54:23:13

Clark

That scene is gross, too.

00:54:23:20 - 00:54:24:08

Cullen

I mean, I.

00:54:24:08 - 00:54:49:20

Speaker 3

Mean, like, I mean, she is genuinely, genuinely freaked out. You know, it's funny. It's like you are really I mean, it's disgusting. But that I mean, that I just like like as we wrap up here, we're talking about the practical effects. I do just want to say, you know, where that final transformation where Brundle fly is pulling Geena Davis into the pod.

00:54:50:03 - 00:55:07:01

Speaker 3

And it's this final like transformation. And there's this molting that occurs where the full blown insect, who is no longer any humanity at all, emerges from within the shell of Brundle fly. Oh, my.

00:55:07:01 - 00:55:08:23

Clark

God. It's incredible. Yeah.

00:55:08:23 - 00:55:14:00

Speaker 3

Oh, I mean, it is the most vi. I mean, I would have to say that even.

00:55:14:07 - 00:55:16:14

Clark

I mean flesh is just like falling off of a man.

00:55:16:16 - 00:55:25:01

Speaker 3

I think it even eclipses anything that's in the thing, which I feel like is one of the, you know, absolutely sort of practical physical effects and makeup.

00:55:25:01 - 00:55:41:09

Clark

I think I would agree. No, I think I think that the effects in this film actually do I agree with you? I think that even the the earlier stuff. Yeah. I think that the attention to detail on that, the thing looks fantastic. Yeah. But I think the thing because it's so fantastical still kind of there's, there's levels where you're like, oh okay.

00:55:41:09 - 00:56:04:14

Clark

I can see how they did that. Yeah. This movie is such an incredible mix of effects. But, but again, even even, you know, going with that a bit like, you know, Gina Davis pulling off the thing and she's actually pulling the jaw off like when we were shooting daylight, which we discussed this in the last episode, there's the scene when we shot in the in like the cellar, and it was like dusty and dark and like dank.

00:56:04:14 - 00:56:13:01

Clark

And it was just this and, you know, the our lead actress really, like we had to keep spraying like glycerin on her.

00:56:13:01 - 00:56:13:10

Cullen

To get the.

00:56:13:10 - 00:56:40:09

Clark

Sweat and stuff. And by the end of the shoot, we didn't even need to because it would be had this whole day in this like dusty dungeon, essentially. And I think had we shot that on a like a soundstage or like built a set for that, it would have had a completely different effect was the fact that we were actually in these tunnels and like real, you know, this real that was that was dusty and really not the, you know, cleanest best place to be.

00:56:40:09 - 00:56:44:12

Clark

And I think that added to so much of the feel and the texture of that, I'm sure.

00:56:44:12 - 00:56:45:02

Cullen

No doubt.

00:56:45:02 - 00:57:01:16

Clark

Yeah. And so it's, you know, again, I see that so much in this where it's like the Gina Davis being able to pull the jaw off of. Yeah. Of Brundle fly in it's this really that that that scene is so. Oh let it be done. Oh and if you haven't seen this I know we've kind of, you know, spoiled the movie, but if you.

00:57:01:16 - 00:57:04:14

Cullen

Haven't seen I mean, it's ridiculous if you're listening to this. Yeah.

00:57:04:16 - 00:57:12:18

Speaker 3

If you're listening to this and you've made it to minute 58 and you haven't seen this film from 1986, what in the world are you doing?

00:57:12:18 - 00:57:13:21

Cullen

I mean, I guess it's.

00:57:13:21 - 00:57:15:18

Clark

Like, well, maybe they would really like to hear us talk.

00:57:15:23 - 00:57:37:07

Speaker 3

Maybe, maybe. And we and don't get me wrong, we appreciate you, but yeah, go see the film. And it is absolutely I think not only is it a great story and, you know, we have focused a lot on the practical effects because obviously that's one of the things that really stands out from the film. Yeah, and it's fun to talk about it, but but there is a lot more to this film than that.

00:57:37:15 - 00:57:38:21

Speaker 3

Great performances.

00:57:39:04 - 00:57:40:21

Cullen

Great score, a lot.

00:57:40:21 - 00:57:42:00

Clark

Of subtlety in in.

00:57:42:06 - 00:58:09:19

Speaker 3

Really interesting themes and and yeah it's just and it's fun to see a young Jeff Goldblum doing his kind of cool science to staying before he really honed in on that and Jurassic Park and that kind of became like his thing you know for a while. And Geena Davis is fantastic as well. And that's kind of this is before she went on to, you know, I think was a League of Her Own, a League of Their Own and Thelma and Louise.

00:58:09:19 - 00:58:26:08

Speaker 3

And she became, you know, a leading lady and a big actress in her own right, too. So this is like a little earlier in both of their careers. But yeah, and I mean, and hey, you know Canada, right? What more can you ask for in a film now.

00:58:26:08 - 00:58:26:22

Clark

Exactly.

00:58:27:07 - 00:58:30:06

Cullen

Toronto. Nothing else to add. All right, guys. Well, yeah.

00:58:30:12 - 00:58:38:04

Speaker 3

Well, Cullen, as always, man, it was a pleasure. This is a fantastic choice. So great selection. It was a blast to watch this again.

00:58:38:04 - 00:58:39:18

Cullen

And that's a test movie. Yeah.

00:58:39:19 - 00:58:48:18

Speaker 3

Yeah. And everybody else out there, We hope that you enjoyed our discussion of the fly. Until next time, everybody. Have a wonderful week.

Episode - 046 - The Color of Money

Clark

Hello, everyone, and welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. With me, as always, is Mr. Mustache, Cullen McFater.

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Cullen

Now, that's what they call me now.

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Clark

How are you doing, man?

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Cullen

Good, Good.

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Clark

How are you? I'm doing well. And I, of course, am Clark coffey. And today on episode 46. Wow. I can't believe it's 46. And I know we said 50. What?

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Cullen

Almost at.

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Clark

50. We're going to have to think of something special to do. 450, Man, We'll have to. We're going to have to put our heads together and think of something. 50th anniversary. That's a big one. But we are covering Martin Scorsese's 1986 film, The Color of Money, starring Paul Newman.

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Cullen

Tom Cruise.

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Clark

You've got Forest, Whitaker's in there, You've got Who else do we have? I mean, this film is packed with great with great performances, but I'm excited to get into this with you. This is a film, you know, it's definitely I mean, look, Scorsese, he's made a million great films. This one often kind of is a little wonder you know stays a little on the down low, you know Yeah, it's a little lower profile, but I think it's an outstanding film and I think it's kind of an interesting film for a handful of reasons.

00:01:26:04 - 00:01:40:04

Clark

So I'm excited to discuss it with you today. So like right off the bat, let's jump into one of my favorite parts of our discussion, our personal experience with the film. And as I understand it, you've not seen the film before?

00:01:40:12 - 00:01:44:21

Cullen

No, I've seen The Hustler, which of course, is a sequel to Right Jersey. So.

00:01:44:21 - 00:01:45:15

Clark

Okay, so not.

00:01:45:15 - 00:01:47:17

Cullen

Really recall The Hustler all that well, but.

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Clark

Right.

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Cullen

But yeah, this was the first time I'd seen this one. What did.

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Clark

You think?

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Cullen

I loved it. Yeah, I thought it was great. I'm a big, you know, as everyone is. I really like Scorsese. He and I think that he's, you know, the really masterful director, an interesting director for me, because I don't I have limited influence from him. Okay? You know, like, I don't I don't really set out to make movies like him in a weird way, but I love him.

00:02:14:22 - 00:02:36:10

Cullen

And it's like he I think he's really, really an interesting director. I guess my my intonations are different. But, you know, I thought this was a it was a it's very fun. It's it's for the most part, I'd say a light hearted movie. And and but it also, you know, there's there's some you know, pretty, pretty heavy drama stuff in there.

00:02:36:10 - 00:02:49:18

Cullen

And you know, you get the I love Newman Newman's my favorite actor as well or at least definitely one of Yeah yeah. And so I think that his performances were or his performance was amazing are Tom Cruise coming up Top gun which.

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Clark

Which hadn't been released yet though.

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Cullen

Yeah it hadn't even been released.

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Clark

So this is that's one of the things that makes this film interesting is that this is Tom Cruise before he really turned into International Star. Star Tom Cruise. Yeah, exactly.

00:03:05:04 - 00:03:07:17

Cullen

Because he'd done what he he was in The Outsiders.

00:03:07:23 - 00:03:23:21

Clark

Well, he was in the Outsiders. He was in Risky Business and Risky Business. And if I'm not mistaken, I think it was probably because of his performance in Risky Business that he was cast in this film. Don't want to speak out of turn. That's what's kind of popping into my head right now. Yeah.

00:03:23:21 - 00:03:25:01

Cullen

Yeah, I think that's a safe bet.

00:03:26:06 - 00:03:52:07

Clark

But yeah, I mean, we're looking at it's 1986, you know, if you look into Tom Cruise's filmography, he had done not a ton, he'd done a handful of films, but like you're correct, he done outsider's risky. I mean, he had, I think four films come out in 83, if I'm not mistaken. And, you know, of those certainly Risky Business was by far and away the largest film, and he had done, I think, in 85, Legend Ridley Scott's film.

00:03:52:22 - 00:03:59:00

Clark

And that was not a big hit at all. I don't even think it made its budget back on.

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Cullen

I mean, yet he was by no means unknown, but.

00:04:02:17 - 00:04:07:06

Clark

No, not unknown. He was not the international superstar. Right. It was kind of.

00:04:07:06 - 00:04:08:01

Cullen

I think Top gun.

00:04:08:01 - 00:04:25:16

Clark

Sort of Top gun. Yeah. And you're talking there about a film, you know, of course, that's Tony Scott. So it's interesting. Cruise worked with both brothers, Tony and Ray by this point. But yeah, I mean, look, we all know Top Gun when Top Gun was released. I think that was ish 15 million and that thing pulled in over 350 million in the box office.

00:04:25:16 - 00:04:30:16

Clark

It was, you know, a cultural phenomenon. I love Andrew And then.

00:04:30:20 - 00:04:31:12

Cullen

Top Gun fan.

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Clark

Yeah. Yeah. It's great. And then that, you know and then he really say, oh, now it's interesting. Like right after that in 88 he did cocktail which is hysterical and I actually got that we're going to make this episode. We're not going to make this episode about Tom Cruise. But but it's fun to find context for the film, you know, for Color of Money.

00:04:51:20 - 00:04:55:01

Clark

And then, of course, Tom went on to be Tom and, you know, did that.

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Cullen

But yeah, I mean, first things first. Yeah, I mean, I, I loved it. Yeah, I, yeah, I can't we'll get into the specifics of course, but I wasn't surprised. I mean, I think most of the time I wind up liking scores as in movies, but I think that I what, what really took me on this one was that and again, we'll get to this much more when we're talking about the direction and stuff like that.

00:05:15:11 - 00:05:23:18

Cullen

But I thought that it was it was an interestingly subdued Scorsese Z for the first half and then really became more of a scores as each like like.

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Clark

Stylistically.

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Cullen

Stylistically these buildings.

00:05:26:14 - 00:05:28:19

Clark

A lot of energy Yeah a lot of energy.

00:05:28:19 - 00:05:37:08

Cullen

Got very kinetic in the second half. Kinetic again, I can't even say I prefer one over the other because one of my favorite course AC movies is Silence, which has none of that kinetic.

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Clark

Yes, totally.

00:05:38:16 - 00:05:47:23

Cullen

Very, very subdued. But no, I really was was impressed by the movie on a technical and you know, just as a storytelling.

00:05:47:23 - 00:06:04:16

Clark

Yeah now now I'm curious like what would you consider that? You know, some people think this is kind of like a sports like it's in the sports genre. You know, you also have elements, not necessarily like a con film, but but hustlers are kind of con men, right?

00:06:04:16 - 00:06:06:14

Cullen

So there's they're like legal con men in a way.

00:06:06:14 - 00:06:21:10

Clark

Yeah. There's kind of like, you know, is this like a con artist film? Is it a sports film? Is it is it a mentorship kind of mentor mentee film? There's elements of all of these things. Did you have any expectations at all about the film going into it? I mean, you know, it's.

00:06:21:10 - 00:06:25:22

Cullen

It's no, I again, I hadn't seen The Hustler in so long, really.

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Clark

And it's and it's not a film of Scorsese backlog or, you know, filmography that I think really stands out much, which is why I wanted to pick it, because I don't take it It doesn't it's a it kind of lays low and I think it could be easily overlooked. And I think actually in a lot of ways it has been including with its transfer.

00:06:44:14 - 00:07:11:13

Clark

But we're going to get to that as well later. But well, for me, you know, this film came out in 86. I was ten years old when it was released. I certainly had not seen The Hustler yet. But, you know, when this film came out at ten years old, I wasn't given to watching, you know, 1960, early sixties black and white films, I don't think probably wouldn't have caught my attention, but I didn't see the film probably until, you know, it came out on cable, like a lot of these eighties films.

00:07:11:13 - 00:07:23:06

Clark

And if you guys have been listening to this podcast for a while, I just realized it seems like a lot of my picks are films that came out in the mid eighties. Clearly, this was a time frame for me where a.

00:07:23:06 - 00:07:24:04

Cullen

Formative and.

00:07:24:06 - 00:07:44:11

Clark

Formative formative time frame. But, you know, I probably saw this film, you know, three, four ish years later. So I remember watching it. I think either like late junior high or high school and, you know, so Tom Cruise would have probably been the person that would have stood out to me most. I don't know how many Newman films I had seen.

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Clark

I certainly, of course, knew of Newman, but but yeah, I mean, I think as a kid it was probably, you know, the the way Scorsese shoots with such confidence, these characters are cool, right? I mean, Newman is super cool in his own way. Cruz is all the.

00:08:03:23 - 00:08:04:14

Cullen

Hothead.

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Clark

Goofy, although goofy, you know, to it, you know, 12 year old kid or whatever I was, you know, he came off as like being super cool, you know, And you've got the, you know, they're the pool sharks and you've got this amazing pool photography, you know, and the music and everything very like a kinetic film. So I remember very much loving it.

00:08:24:18 - 00:09:03:09

Clark

And then as I got older, I got I started to get more interested in the relationship between Newman and Cruz and this whole kind of, you know, dynamic of hustlers and con artists and mentorship relationships. And that became like very intriguing to me. And you know, what is winning? What is losing, and I think is an interesting kind of metaphor here for for a lot of us, unfortunately, as we go through life where, you know, we kind of start off wanting to do whatever it is we end up doing in life because we have a passion for it.

00:09:03:09 - 00:09:23:06

Clark

Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully. And and that kind of becomes corrupt over time. We do things for money and, you know, this is kind of part of the necessity of life, right? I mean, we have to pay our bills, most of us. We have to earn an income and so that we have a roof and food. And so, you know, this passion can come be could kind of become corrupted.

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Clark

And then a lot of our life might be spent trying to find that passion and love again for what we originally, you know, wanted to do. And I certainly have had experiences like this in the film industry. So now, many, many years later, as an older adult with a lot more experience under my belt, I see this film even in a totally new way.

00:09:44:13 - 00:09:54:04

Clark

So one of the kind of signs of a good film to me is that it can grow with its audience over time, and I feel like this film really has, at least for me.

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Cullen

So definitely. Yeah.

00:09:56:00 - 00:10:16:23

Clark

So okay, cool. Well, I'll be interested to see, you know, so we have I have a history with the film. You don't have a history with the film, so it'll be interesting as we kind of go through certain aspects of the film, we'll kind of compare notes. It'll be interesting to have a couple of different perspectives. So I think we talked a little bit about context for the film, and we'll expand on that a little bit because I think it's important.

00:10:16:23 - 00:10:38:06

Clark

It kind of educates a lot of the other ways that you can look at the film. I mean, it is a sequel, like you said, to The Hustler and the Hustler. I actually did watch it again, and I hadn't seen it for maybe about a decade. So I watched it right before I watched The Color of Money This Time.

00:10:38:14 - 00:11:05:21

Clark

And Hustler is 1961. That's Newman. Gleason plays Minnesota Fats, who is, I guess, basically the kind of Newman's arch rival, Fast Eddie Felson. That's Newman's character in both of these films, by the way. Got to love that name, Fast Eddie and Minnesota Fats. Those are great names. But but in that film, Newman is almost kind of in a way, in the Tom Cruise role in Color of Money.

00:11:06:07 - 00:11:08:01

Cullen

Yeah, he's that kind of place.

00:11:08:01 - 00:11:26:22

Clark

That yeah, he's the he's the younger pool player. He's in it to be the best. You know, he has a passion for pool. The money is not as important. He just wants to be the best. He seeks out Minnesota Fats, who's notorious to be, you know, as the best pool hustler in the land. And ultimately he ends up being beat.

00:11:27:15 - 00:12:00:03

Clark

And we go through this. And it's interesting because the hustler is actually very much a love story in a sense. I mean, there's not actually a ton of pool. If you really look at the film. A lot of the film is spent with the relationship between Fast Eddie and Piper, Laurie's character and their relationship. She's an alcoholic and but but she sees even though she has struggles with her own issues with alcoholism and she's kind of, you know, this abandoned character, in a sense, she sees how he's being corrupted by Oh, yeah, by George.

00:12:00:03 - 00:12:01:02

Clark

She's to see Scott.

00:12:01:02 - 00:12:03:17

Cullen

She's very much almost like a third eye in a way. Yeah.

00:12:03:18 - 00:12:30:12

Clark

Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. And she kind of sees that his passion for the game and his desire to just be pure and be the best is being corrupted by by these other characters desire for money and, you know, and they don't really have a passion. They're just kind of using him. He's a pawn. He's, you know, these people are bored, kind of cynical, corrupt characters, and he's fallen into this world with them.

00:12:30:12 - 00:12:49:16

Clark

And and of course, by the end of the film, that's exactly what happens. I mean, he does beat Minnesota Fats, but he is kind of run out of the game. And he has got to, you know, through the course of the film, he's kind of become one of them, in effect. And so that's where we find him at the start of this film.

00:12:50:18 - 00:12:53:20

Cullen

And we almost like a bar. He's a liquor salesman, too. He's kind of.

00:12:55:06 - 00:13:03:05

Clark

Well, and it's interesting to note he he's selling he's selling like generic liquor and fake labels so that people.

00:13:03:08 - 00:13:06:14

Cullen

So it's one of the first quick lines is like, can you get me some Jack Daniels labels or.

00:13:06:14 - 00:13:29:07

Clark

Yeah. So he's so he's a connoisseur artist and kind of a hustler in every sense of the word. I mean, but it's interesting to note, too, you know, that in 86 when this film came out, Scorsese, who definitely, of course, had a reputation at this point, he had shot several films, but some of the biggest being Mean Streets, Taxi Driver and Raging Bull, of course, extremely critically successful films.

00:13:29:18 - 00:13:48:13

Clark

But he had had a run of a couple of films after that that weren't very successful. He did King of Comedy in 82. He did After Hours in 85. And although I personally think these are great films and I think most people have come around to agree with that sentiment at the time, they were really disappointing and so.

00:13:48:18 - 00:13:49:19

Cullen

Yeah, they didn't do well at.

00:13:49:19 - 00:14:15:12

Clark

All, didn't do well at all. And so here we have Newman actually coming to Scorsese. He said, I'd like you to direct this film. The book, the author of Of The Hustler had just written two years prior in 80 for this book, The Color of Money, and Newman was looking to reprise his role as Fast Eddie Felson. So he comes to Scorsese and hires him basically to do this job.

00:14:15:12 - 00:14:36:09

Clark

So it's in a sense, this is, you know, Newman had probably more to do with this film being put together than Scorsese. And it's interesting, I and I don't you know, I don't I want to be careful. I'm not sure if this is 100% fact, but I get kind of a sense that Scorsese, he almost doesn't see this as like really one of his films, that he almost kind of sees himself as a gun for hire.

00:14:36:19 - 00:14:53:03

Cullen

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I can understand that too, that it's yeah, you know, it probably wasn't something that he had been thinking about for a long time. I know. I think I think Last Temptation of the Christ actually has been canned by one of the studios that they were going to do it in. And so he was really kind of down.

00:14:53:09 - 00:14:55:14

Cullen

Yeah. But the fact that that wasn't made, which.

00:14:55:14 - 00:14:57:10

Clark

Was clearly a passionate project for.

00:14:57:10 - 00:15:18:11

Cullen

Him. Exactly. So but I can I can totally understand, you know, I've I've done things that I've directed that I haven't written or really been involved in much of the pre-production on, were able to sort of come in to direct and of course made those decisions. But I don't really see those as things that I, you know, if you now really show off as my own either.

00:15:18:11 - 00:15:33:07

Cullen

Yeah, that's much more of something that I'm kind of like, Oh yeah, I was it was much more of a job and like you said, kind of a hired gun. So I can totally understand why because as he wouldn't, wouldn't necessarily consider this in his like if you get a score as a box set that he himself curated, I could see him leaving this one out.

00:15:33:09 - 00:15:34:12

Clark

Yeah, I think so.

00:15:34:12 - 00:15:45:20

Cullen

But that doesn't speak to its quality at all. I would say that this, you know, again, I think both of us really, really liked this movie. Yeah. But more so that I just understand that, you know, with Scorsese, it wasn't, it wasn't his. It wasn't like.

00:15:45:20 - 00:15:46:05

Clark

Yeah.

00:15:46:06 - 00:15:47:04

Cullen

That he had been dreaming.

00:15:47:04 - 00:16:10:01

Clark

Of originally. He didn't originate the story. Yeah, it's a sequel. Obviously, we don't have we don't have Scorsese shooting sequels at any other point in his, you know, filmography. So so yeah. And it's interesting to, you know, Tom Cruise, like we said before, Tom Cruise certainly was a name and he was clearly a rising star, but Top Gun had not released.

00:16:10:01 - 00:16:28:08

Clark

And so he wasn't, you know, the Tom Cruise we all know and love. And I think it's great because here you see Tom Cruise, let it really, I think let it all out. He really goes for it. He's over the top in a lot of ways. And I mean that in the best of senses. You know, his The Werewolf of London scene where he's slaying his opponents.

00:16:28:08 - 00:16:42:06

Clark

I mean, he really goes for it and he's you know, he's just he's he's a total goof. He's a total flake. And you just you don't see this you don't see him taking on roles like this really ever again in his filmography. No. I mean, where he's.

00:16:42:06 - 00:17:00:12

Cullen

Kind of almost not an antagonist, but he's not he there's not really think redemption for him. He doesn't he doesn't like, come out of it being like, Oh, yeah, you know, Cruise. I loved his character. He was not that, you know, he's a great character, but not in a good person sense. Yeah. It's also interesting too.

00:17:00:14 - 00:17:15:13

Clark

And it's not his movie. It's just that he feels this movie. And so you don't see Tom Cruise with rare exception. I mean, you have his kind of big cameo, I guess you might call it in Magnolia, but you don't see Tom Cruise, really? You don't see him playing second fiddle.

00:17:15:20 - 00:17:33:12

Cullen

You don't also I mean, it's the thing is, it's interesting actually about kind of I think the structure of the movie is that you think starting off that it is going to be that that that Tom Cruise is going to be the main character and that it's going to sort of be like a handoff movie where it's like you get the old, you know, master handing it off to the young gun.

00:17:33:12 - 00:17:49:17

Cullen

But it really goes back into a movie about Felson, you know. Yeah. And so I think I think what's also interesting is that Walter Tevis wrote a screenplay for it that was rejected, but apparently it was quite different. And so.

00:17:49:18 - 00:17:54:02

Clark

Well, and let's let's add a note real quick here. So Walter Tevis wrote.

00:17:54:02 - 00:17:54:08

Cullen

Yes.

00:17:54:10 - 00:18:14:00

Clark

The Hustler, the novel. And he also wrote The Color of Money, the novel. And just as a quick little piece of trivia, he also wrote The Queen's Gambit, which is a recent Netflix miniseries that was very, very successful. But okay, so that's interesting. So go back to that. So so Tevis did write an original screenplay that was rejected, you said.

00:18:14:09 - 00:18:19:04

Cullen

Yeah. So yeah. So apparently they decided not to use it. And so then it was written by Richard Price.

00:18:19:16 - 00:18:22:23

Clark

So who is nominated for an Academy Award for this film, by the way?

00:18:22:23 - 00:18:58:06

Cullen

Yeah. And so I wonder I've never read the the novel either of them. I've never read The Hustler or Color of Money by Walter Tevis. But I'm curious if, like, how similar they are, because apparently the novel wasn't written necessarily to be a sequel, that it was written to be sort of a separate story. So I'd be curious to know if that means, you know, because it's so vague, it could just mean that it was written to center around perhaps Cruise's character in the novel as well, or it could mean that it, like the novel, may have had little to do with, you know, Eddie.

00:18:58:10 - 00:19:20:10

Clark

And and this film is totally could be standalone. I mean, I would assume that the vast, vast, vast majority of the people who saw this film in 86 did not see The Hustler in 61. I mean, you know, you're talking about a 25 year time span divided into two films. So, you know, this film totally stands on its own.

00:19:20:21 - 00:19:25:23

Clark

I think there is some added texture. There's some added depth. If you had seen The Hustler and.

00:19:25:23 - 00:19:27:07

Cullen

If you watched them back to back, even.

00:19:27:14 - 00:19:35:02

Clark

If you watch them back to back, you really see that there are some ties. It ties into each other in some really nice subtle ways, almost.

00:19:35:02 - 00:19:36:15

Cullen

Like a longer narrative arc.

00:19:37:04 - 00:20:06:05

Clark

But yet there you go. It's a longer narrative arc because you actually, you know, if you kind of think of it, we come in, Eddie and Newman's character here, it's actually kind of in the middle of his arc. Yeah. If you look at both films together. So it does add a lot and just cool little tiny callbacks. There's a handful of lines where they talk about character being the most important aspect of being a good player in The Hustler.

00:20:06:12 - 00:20:22:06

Clark

We have some fun callbacks here to character Helen Shaver's character here is love. Interest talks about character. So there's there's just a handful of little callbacks there to actually payoff quite nicely if you've seen and Remember The Hustler, it's.

00:20:22:06 - 00:20:41:02

Cullen

Also funny you don't have to. Yeah, I hadn't seen, as I said, The Hustler for maybe six or seven years now. But I do one thing that I really appreciate, and this is, you know, owes too to Paul Newman so much as well, is that he really does a good job of playing a matured version of the character from The Hustler.

00:20:41:02 - 00:20:45:22

Cullen

Right. Like that. He comes into this movie and you don't feel like it's just the same guy.

00:20:46:06 - 00:20:47:06

Clark

You really got like.

00:20:47:06 - 00:20:50:17

Cullen

That, that 25 years have gone by and that he's a different person.

00:20:50:17 - 00:20:52:01

Clark

Oh, you really have experiences.

00:20:52:01 - 00:21:01:21

Cullen

And so I but there's still he does such a good job also, though, of getting back into that role and making you believe that this is the same character. But 25 years later.

00:21:02:02 - 00:21:02:08

Clark

I mean.

00:21:02:08 - 00:21:11:06

Cullen

Because I think that's a huge thing, especially today, now that we're getting all of these sequels that come out, you know, like the new Star Wars movies or Ghostbusters or, you know, whatever you name it, there's.

00:21:11:06 - 00:21:12:06

Clark

There's everything.

00:21:12:11 - 00:21:32:15

Cullen

Everywhere where it's like, you know, 25 years have gone by since the last one. And I think the issue with a lot of those movies nowadays is that the I don't know if it's a director's thing or if it's the studio that are kind of like, we need people to remember. It's all about nostalgia. And so they try to almost get the actors who are playing these characters 25 years on to play the exact same character.

00:21:32:16 - 00:21:35:07

Cullen

They play the character that they were 25 years ago.

00:21:35:07 - 00:21:39:12

Clark

And between the Botox and the Photoshop, Yes, like they look identical.

00:21:39:12 - 00:22:03:02

Cullen

And so I think that it's really interesting that and perhaps it's it's maybe a kind of a touch of the era that there wasn't really as huge like this. You know, we have such a nostalgia wave now. You know, it wasn't really much as far as I'm aware, when this film came out. So there wasn't this whole like we're recreating the magic of the first movie where, you know, it's Paul Newman back as Edie.

00:22:03:02 - 00:22:26:13

Cullen

It's, it's, you know, it's much more a continuation. And it feels like, again, like you said, it can stand on its own. It's a separate film. It has its own you know, it has its own arc, even though it can be involved in the arc of the larger, you know, duo of the films. Yeah, but it does, you know, watching this movie on its own, I had no issue getting into it, enjoying it, connecting with characters and things like that.

00:22:27:10 - 00:22:34:04

Cullen

And again, that goes without saying that I have seen The Hustler, but it's been so long that, yeah, you know, it's it's definitely not a movie that's fresh on my mind.

00:22:34:04 - 00:22:53:01

Clark

By any means. And that's the way almost everybody would have come into this picture. Yes. With that not being fresh, I think, you know, we get to performances in a little more detail. But since you spoke about Newman and, you know, I think I'll just add this little tidbit while we're here. I mean, you know. NEWMAN Look, he's he's one of your favorite actresses, one of my favorite actors.

00:22:54:02 - 00:23:18:06

Clark

By all accounts, he was an extraordinary human being, period. And I mean, he just does such an outstanding job of of, you know, conveying the life that would have been lead between, you know, the end of the last film and the beginning of this film, The age that's on him. Now, a lot of this, the writing is great and the direction is great, the way he's introduced.

00:23:18:12 - 00:23:19:11

Clark

And I mean, it's.

00:23:19:17 - 00:23:21:17

Cullen

Just a brilliant introduction is such as he.

00:23:21:17 - 00:23:43:03

Clark

Does such a fantastic job of of carrying his age in the weight of so much life. But still he's there's this vitality, this sharpness to him, this edge to him that it's like he almost is like youthful without having to put on any of these pretenses of being youthful in a certain sense. Do you know what I mean?

00:23:43:03 - 00:23:57:12

Cullen

And I think a huge part of that, too, is how how he's almost introduced alongside John Turturro's character, who, by the way, I think is like a criminally underrated actor. Every single time I see John Turturro on something, he's fantastic. He's you know, he was also in to live and die in L.A..

00:23:57:18 - 00:24:07:11

Clark

Except for that. Except for that, Oh, man. The Coen brothers, Big Lebowski. Except for The Big Lebowski. Spin off. I mean, come on.

00:24:07:12 - 00:24:10:08

Cullen

Oh, God, yes. Yeah, that. That the spin off. Jesus. Yeah, yeah.

00:24:10:08 - 00:24:11:10

Clark

Roles or something.

00:24:12:06 - 00:24:42:07

Cullen

But no, but he's but you know, when in the movies that he's, he's good and he's good and I guess is an easier way to put it. But no I think that he is like even in this he's got maybe two or three scenes and he stands out in every single one where he just plays this guy that's just filled with jealousy, but almost, you know, he's played right on the cusp of comic relief where he's not just a joke, but he's also very much something that is like, you know, you're meant to get a few laughs out of his scenes.

00:24:42:14 - 00:25:03:21

Cullen

How he Yeah, you know, he tells Paul Newman as he leaves, he's like, You suck. And you and you almost expect, you know again, going into the movie, you expect if this had the trajectory of a typical sports movie, it would be Newman training cruise and then the end the big finale the showdown would be Turturro versus Cruz and Newman the sidelines, you know.

00:25:03:23 - 00:25:11:16

Cullen

Yeah, but he'd have to coach Cruz through Turturro who was his old kind of it would be like Karate Kid. But no it completely you know.

00:25:12:03 - 00:25:12:05

Clark

He.

00:25:12:05 - 00:25:13:02

Cullen

Just beats Turturro.

00:25:13:07 - 00:25:37:00

Clark

Which were huge films in the eighties. Yeah yeah. You know these kind of you have a lot of these sports films where that's, you know, that would absolutely be what you would expect from the story. Well, yeah, I mean, let's talk about the story a little bit in the directing. I mean, you mentioned that one of the things that stood out to you really predominantly was this kind of that you have almost a two different Scorsese.

00:25:37:01 - 00:25:49:18

Clark

You've got this this kind of subdued or, you know, kind of more traditional kind of standard way that the first half of the film is shot. And then we go, you know, full Scorsese is, I think, really kinetic camera.

00:25:49:19 - 00:25:50:11

Cullen

Really. Yeah.

00:25:50:11 - 00:26:07:09

Clark

And it kind of starts with with Newman's montage where he's getting back into shape. He's getting his prescription glasses, he's swimming, you know, he's practicing, and we get a lot more action. This becomes really kinetic. And, you know, the music is amped up and we've got the quick dollies and the.

00:26:07:11 - 00:26:24:12

Cullen

And that he almost abandons the hustler lifestyle. You know this whole if you really yeah and I think it's it's super because again this is of course after king of comedy which was 1982 which as you said, didn't do super well. King of Comedy is another one that I think is very subdued. Scorsese Very. You know, there's not much Nick is.

00:26:24:20 - 00:26:28:00

Clark

Stylistically is what you're kind of talking about like the kinetic.

00:26:28:09 - 00:26:30:14

Cullen

Yes. Of the camera.

00:26:30:14 - 00:26:32:00

Clark

And yeah, just to be clear.

00:26:32:00 - 00:26:49:21

Cullen

Yeah. And and so it's interesting. Yeah. That this movie is is you get both of those and I think it works super well in context of the story as well like it it works in favor of the way that this movie is laid out. Yeah. And the way that the, you know, that everything kind of comes to be you.

00:26:50:04 - 00:27:24:00

Cullen

I think it's such a brilliant decision because it's like you get this just subdued Scorsese and you know, Eddie is not on his own. And then suddenly as soon as he clicks on it, then you get this, this kinetic Scorsese that that the things that Scorsese he really famous for. And it's like it's like you feel this sudden return to craft not that the first half is by any means poorly directed I actually again as I said love subdued Scorsese but you I think the fact that he chose to do that the fact that he chose to direct the first half much more low energy and just sort of a little bit more objective in

00:27:24:00 - 00:27:36:14

Cullen

terms of how he places the camera and shoots the scenes and that as soon as you get the subjectivity, you feel like you're back in with Eddie, like you almost feel this this revitalization of the energy that's that's washed over him and the audience.

00:27:36:14 - 00:28:10:23

Clark

It's yeah, it's certainly help. I mean, it, it escalates the energy of the film. It brings us to a climax with, you know, this head of Steam. It gives the film a dynamic feeling where it's, you know, you really have this kind of elevation. It assists the story in that way. Absolutely. And it's a good example of, you know, how how the camera can be used to, you know, not just in a utilitarian sense where you know, you're showing what's happening and da da da da da, but that it actually, you know, you can use the style with which you use the camera can actually shift as we go through the acts of a film

00:28:11:06 - 00:28:19:23

Clark

and can actually really lend weight behind the beats of the story that you're trying to convey. You know.

00:28:19:23 - 00:28:45:20

Cullen

Exactly. It's a really it's like a masterclass in using a director's style, I think. Yeah, that rarely is seen in, you know, even even a lot of movies that were contemporary with this that, that where it's like of course every director you think of like go to worship and things like that that a lot of directors have a fingerprint on a movie where you can tell that those are their, you know, their stylistic choices that they use all the time, and that really makes them them.

00:28:47:06 - 00:28:53:18

Cullen

But I think Scorsese, even this one, uses it in a really special way that like elevates a lot of the picture. So I think it's really interesting.

00:28:54:01 - 00:29:12:02

Clark

Yeah, Yeah. And it's beautiful to watch. I mean, there's just, you know, there's so I mean, I think, you know, from the get go, the camera is actually if you if you pay attention to it because some of the stuff is hard to shoot, you've got, you know, people around a table, you've got action on the table, you've got people moving around a table.

00:29:12:10 - 00:29:30:12

Clark

The camera does such a fantastic job of, you know, fluidly, you know, showing people playing pool around a table, showing the action on the table, keeping this, like spatially aligned. It doesn't ever feel weird. You don't ever get spatially confused. It always.

00:29:30:12 - 00:29:33:17

Cullen

Is. You understand the game immediately because they're not actually playing pool.

00:29:33:17 - 00:29:34:10

Clark

They're playing nine.

00:29:34:10 - 00:29:35:13

Cullen

Ball. Nine ball. Yeah.

00:29:35:22 - 00:29:43:03

Clark

And you're right. And so they correct. It's like they do kind of explain nine ball a little bit. And there's some narration of the beginning.

00:29:43:03 - 00:29:44:13

Cullen

That spike scores as he himself.

00:29:44:13 - 00:30:05:08

Clark

By Scorsese himself that does kind of like lay a little bit of groundwork so that as an audience you kind of understand what's happening on the pool table. But exactly. I mean, it's because you're having to deal with not just the spatial orientation and the power relationships between the players playing and the drama there. But you also have to keep this the spatial nature of the game on the table.

00:30:05:14 - 00:30:25:06

Clark

MM Clear. And that's tough. You know, The Hustler didn't show much pool. It's interesting if you watch The Hustler, I mean, very, very, very little pool is shown. There's only a handful of shots. This film shows a lot of pool. And and that I mean, that's got to be really challenging then.

00:30:25:06 - 00:30:27:15

Cullen

Thelma Schoonmaker is editing is is really superb.

00:30:27:15 - 00:30:28:18

Clark

When it all the way and also.

00:30:28:19 - 00:30:30:23

Cullen

Showing those sequences as well like that does.

00:30:31:00 - 00:30:31:17

Clark

Absolutely.

00:30:32:01 - 00:30:50:19

Cullen

And again, you just you have this fluidity, especially in the second half, where that's what I love about Scorsese, that he has this way of making his scenes flow from scene to scene in a in a montage sense, but not in a typical, you know, Rocky four. He's he's training on the farm.

00:30:51:10 - 00:30:52:12

Clark

The training montage.

00:30:52:19 - 00:31:15:02

Cullen

Exactly. You've got this it fits So well within the movie That doesn't it doesn't feel like it's it's a scene. It feels like it's just like you're just evolving with these characters. So it's yeah, I think the direction the editing is, is all really, really superb. And I think honestly, some of course, as he's best and which is a shame that so many people have probably missed this movie or don't really think of it as one of Scorsese's best.

00:31:15:07 - 00:31:20:04

Cullen

Yeah. Because it really, you know, it's a masterclass in all of his work.

00:31:20:18 - 00:31:42:01

Clark

Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's visually just really interesting to see. And you've got some, you know, really classic shots here. Maybe one of the most kind of famous is the the reflection of Newman in the action. Now, I can't remember if it's an eight ball or if it's a I can't remember which ball it but it's and it's probably important to the story.

00:31:42:01 - 00:32:14:05

Clark

But you know we see him as he leans into to begin to play and you have this like really beautiful reflection of him in the in the in the ball. There's just a hint that there's that really beautiful shot where he walks into that and near the end at the tournament and you've got these pool tables laid out and we've got this like organ music and you know, kind of knowing Scorsese and how important religion is and as a theme in a lot of his movies, you know, this like organ music comes on and it's like, you know, this is fast.

00:32:14:05 - 00:32:41:11

Clark

Eddie's church, man. You know, like he's entered church, baby. That just so many really beautiful shots like that. And again, I'm just I'm honestly I've kind of like practically taken notes, you know, just how well the camera moves around the table. And because, you know, sometimes it's a challenge. I mean, you know, it's almost like when you've got people sitting around a table, you know, and it seems like it'd be one of the easiest shots, you know, scenes to shoot.

00:32:41:11 - 00:32:46:04

Clark

But you've got a handful of people around a table and they're having a conversation. It's like, keep it.

00:32:46:04 - 00:32:46:17

Cullen

Interesting.

00:32:46:17 - 00:33:07:21

Clark

To keep it dramatic and to keep it spatially clean. It can be surprisingly challenging. And so now imagine that you've got people around a table, but they're moving around the table, and what they're doing on the table is actually important and you need to show it, you know? So it's I think it's a good, you know, learning experience for for anybody out there.

00:33:07:21 - 00:33:20:10

Clark

You know, take a look at how these are shot. They're great. So it's not just those those really bombastic stylistic shots that are worth checking out. I mean, let's talk about the cinematography a little bit more to Michael Balas.

00:33:20:10 - 00:33:28:12

Cullen

Well, yeah. I mean, I think first off, there's a lot of natural light because rather than shooting on big sets, a lot of the scenes actually took place in real pool halls.

00:33:28:13 - 00:33:34:20

Clark

Yes, these are definitely on location, at least as I understand it. I think. Yeah, pretty much the whole film was shot on location, right?

00:33:35:02 - 00:33:42:12

Cullen

Yeah. And it's Michael Ballhaus, who, of course, is, you know, somebody who Scorsese, he would go on to. This is his second movie together.

00:33:42:12 - 00:33:43:17

Clark

But they did after.

00:33:43:17 - 00:33:46:04

Cullen

I don't want to work on Everything until The Departed.

00:33:46:12 - 00:33:46:19

Clark

Yep.

00:33:48:10 - 00:34:04:17

Cullen

And I think that it's a really, really again much like the direction of at least the first half of the film. Nothing crazy, but very, very beautiful. You know, it's lit very, very well-balanced. Everything has got this really soft again, because you've got.

00:34:05:08 - 00:34:30:02

Clark

I wish I wish I could have been able to tell, Right? Yeah, I wish I could have. I, I'm like so I, it is so hard for me to tell in some instances what was meant and what was not. So just a small digression here. So I have this film on both Blu ray and then and have an iTunes digital copy I watched on iTunes, but it didn't matter because both of the transfers are identical.

00:34:30:11 - 00:34:56:11

Clark

They are horrible. Mm hmm. I this is and I have I mean, I don't need I couldn't even count how many films I've seen on Blu ray and, you know, HD digitally this is I think I can safely say, the worst transfer of a major feature film I have ever seen. I mean, at at many, many places consistently.

00:34:56:11 - 00:35:12:05

Clark

The HD ten ATP transfer of this film looked looked like an early DVD release. Yeah, at best it was it was so, so soft and not not appropriately soft.

00:35:13:10 - 00:35:15:14

Cullen

Like it was. Yeah, this muted, horrible print.

00:35:15:18 - 00:35:33:02

Clark

Yeah, just a horrible bitrate. A lot of data missing banding artifacts, acting grain looked horrible, the colors muted, washed out. Just horrible man. I but you said that you saw this and it looked good.

00:35:33:15 - 00:35:46:09

Cullen

My yeah whatever transfer I saw was actually quite nice. The colors were balanced. It was, it was sharp and that was kind of how I knew that you would likely seen a different one than I had because it was it was your you were saying it was soft and it just.

00:35:46:18 - 00:35:55:07

Clark

Would saved the good stuff for Canadians, man. We just don't get access to that out here. Down here in the US. Man. I'm going to have to start like, you know, importing my films from Canada, dude.

00:35:55:18 - 00:36:19:17

Cullen

But. D Yeah, I was going to say too, that it's one of those movies that you just have a naturally nice, you know, lighting situation where pool tables always have the light above them. So you've got immediately you have contextual lighting, practical lighting in a scene that looks neat, that looks cool. Yeah. If you've ever stood at a pool table in a bar or a pool hall with anybody, you know that everything kind of looks dramatic because you have the top down like a pool table.

00:36:19:22 - 00:36:41:04

Cullen

Then a softly bouncing up from the table itself. Of course, from the the above light that's bouncing off of the fabric. Yeah. So you just naturally have these really nice practicals. And I think that they use that to their advantage a lot where there's nothing super fancy going on other than that, you know, every, every light is just sort of accentuating the natural, you know, what would look natural in a pool hall?

00:36:41:04 - 00:36:54:18

Cullen

There's no crazy you know, it's not super hazed. It's not like you've got big bars of light coming in from the windows and things like that. There's there's it doesn't look really, really ultra stylized.

00:36:55:06 - 00:37:03:05

Clark

Which is which is interesting because, you know, if you call this a sports movie, which, you know, you can make an argument, this is a sports movie. And since it's.

00:37:03:05 - 00:37:05:17

Cullen

Classified, I think I mean, put sports in it.

00:37:05:17 - 00:37:15:12

Clark

Genre couldn't be further from different and in many ways. But but we're talking about the cinematography then Scorsese these other.

00:37:15:19 - 00:37:16:06

Cullen

Yes.

00:37:16:06 - 00:37:18:08

Clark

Sports film Raging Bull. I mean you.

00:37:18:10 - 00:37:18:18

Cullen

Couldn't.

00:37:18:19 - 00:37:42:09

Clark

Yeah which was shot by Michael Chapman. I mean, you couldn't find two films that look more different than these two films from, you know, cinematography perspective. So it's interesting the the like radical differences with which Scorsese, he approached both of these sports films and they're not that far apart. We've got, what, six years apart between the two. So yeah, I just it's just interesting and no it's.

00:37:42:11 - 00:38:06:13

Cullen

It's definitely a it's, it's a weird where's not the right word for it but it's it shows the range I think. And also it's kind of again an interesting little look at that, how a cinematographer might affect the look of film and the director's direction in that Again, yeah, I think I love Michael Ballhaus I love I think that he's done some really, really brilliant work on on all of the scores as he movies that he did shot.

00:38:08:08 - 00:38:31:10

Cullen

But I'd say yeah, this one was is interestingly natural that the lighting is very much it's it's practical in a sense like everything is influenced by the practicals everything is sourced from whatever the practical elements of the scene are, which of course you know, in cinematography most things are, but there's no accentuation on a on a grand scale you're not getting.

00:38:31:20 - 00:38:33:12

Clark

No obvious style. Is milk.

00:38:33:12 - 00:38:36:05

Cullen

Filled. Exactly. Exactly. But I do color weird.

00:38:36:07 - 00:38:52:22

Clark

You know, one of the things that I feel like they did a really great job with is like, you know, one of the things that stands out to me is this this feeling of I get like an East coast fi almost from a lot of it. I get kind of an East Coast vibe. I get a cold vibe, you know, it's like I tungsten.

00:38:53:04 - 00:39:10:01

Clark

Yeah. And I get it's, it's, it's just that stick out that stood out to me. I think it was effective. Yeah. I mean you get just it looks cold. It feels cold. It's it's kind of gritty in that way. It feels quite gritty to me. And you also.

00:39:10:01 - 00:39:24:20

Cullen

You don't really know. I think that that also adds to it, that you don't really know how long the film takes place over because it seems to go through at least like two or three seasons, Like there's a scene in winter fall and I believe there it comes around the ending where it's almost like summer.

00:39:25:01 - 00:39:44:12

Clark

When you don't know and they're in different states, they're traveling. Yeah. So you don't know if you know. Are the seasons changing? Is time passing? Is it that they're going from state to state? Yeah, yeah. The tournaments in Vegas and before they were in Philly or whatever, you know, wherever they were, I don't recall exactly Chicago, whatever, you know.

00:39:44:12 - 00:39:45:10

Cullen

So City.

00:39:45:23 - 00:39:59:21

Clark

Yeah, Atlantic City. So but I do get a sense that it, you know, it kind of helps convey the way it shot, helps convey this like, you know, a sense of kind of disorientation that a person would experience if you live on the road and you're.

00:39:59:21 - 00:40:00:20

Cullen

Going, yeah, if you're suddenly.

00:40:00:20 - 00:40:01:09

Clark

Swept up.

00:40:01:09 - 00:40:01:23

Cullen

In. Yeah.

00:40:02:00 - 00:40:17:18

Clark

Or, you know, kind of this, this kind of gritty and a lot of this is locations that they pick, but this kind of I mean, it's not very glamorous, right? They're playing pool in bars in, you know, like Chicago is, you know, I mean, they do a great job of conveying that they.

00:40:17:18 - 00:40:26:01

Cullen

Stop to to ask directions to one for some guy standing around a you know, a fire pit is like below that, you know, a burning dumpster and a.

00:40:26:08 - 00:40:50:21

Clark

Yeah, yeah. Like a barrel like yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, you know what? A lot of times it's funny too. Now there is inflation, but, you know, they're playing for like 20 bucks, 50 bucks a hand. Now, of course, it does elevate and they start playing for 500 bucks a hand or a thousand bucks a hand. But I mean, you know, it's it's almost a sense it's like there's some humor to this, too, where it's like in their world, this is like the most serious thing.

00:40:51:02 - 00:40:53:00

Cullen

Ever, especially for Newman.

00:40:53:04 - 00:40:59:13

Clark

But to an outsider, it's like, I mean, you're playing a game for, like, 50 bucks.

00:40:59:17 - 00:41:00:18

Cullen

Yeah. You know.

00:41:00:18 - 00:41:05:14

Clark

I mean, a little bit. There's a little bit of that, you know, which which I kind of find as funny, you know?

00:41:05:14 - 00:41:16:19

Cullen

I like that. Newman's like, you know that if you screw this up, then no one's going to play you here, too. Like Atlantic City. You know, you'll your name will go through like beer hall or pool hall. The pool hall and. Yeah, yeah. Another game for the rest of your life.

00:41:17:18 - 00:41:36:15

Clark

Which is it's funny to me. I love films that are about this kind of like these subcultures that, you know, I don't have any exposure to and that seem like interesting and fun, you know. But let's talk a little bit more about the performances, because there really are a handful of outstanding performances. We've talked a little bit about Newman's.

00:41:36:15 - 00:41:41:16

Clark

You know, he was actually won an Academy Award for this film now. Yes, I mean.

00:41:41:16 - 00:41:54:18

Cullen

I and a few other people are nominated. Merrill Mary Elizabeth, Master Antonio. Uh huh. She was nominated. Richard Price, Boris Levin and Catherine O'Hara for Art Direction. They were all nominated for the Oscars.

00:41:54:18 - 00:42:14:01

Clark

So there were a handful of nominations. Yeah, and a couple for performances. And. Newman You know, I think some people felt that Newman's Award was kind of a make up award. No, I think Newman's performance is outstanding in this film. And I don't see I don't recall off the top of my head exactly what performances he was up against in 86.

00:42:14:08 - 00:42:26:07

Clark

But I think that the performance is outstanding. I think it stands as one of his better performances in filmography of Outstanding Performances. So I don't personally have a problem with it, but I do.

00:42:26:07 - 00:42:45:18

Cullen

On the other hand, the other best actors that year weren't. Yeah, I wouldn't say they were bad, but they weren't that they aren't, you know, age old historical. It was Dexter Gordon for Round Midnight, Bob Hoskins and Mona Lisa. William Hurt in Children, a Lesser God, and James Woods in Salvador. So and who nothing like groundbreaking.

00:42:45:18 - 00:43:03:10

Clark

At a time when I mean Tom one Newman one. Yeah and you're right I mean and Salvador think is an outstanding film and a performance Some of the others I can't recall off the top of my head, but you know, but that's what people thought. And I think, you know, there were a handful of films that that Newman maybe should have won for.

00:43:03:10 - 00:43:23:09

Clark

And so maybe it felt a little bit like, you know, he's he's a little bit older. You know, people felt like he might have for, you know, even as far back as 58 with Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, you did have 60 ones. The Hustler 63 is HUD Cool Hand Luke, of course. And 67. I mean, I feel like he should have won for that.

00:43:23:09 - 00:43:40:12

Clark

For example, the sting. So handful of performances. Yeah, The Sting and even some people maybe Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, a little bit less so for that. But you know, he did receive a BAFTA for that. But but yeah, so, you know, a little few people a little bit, you know, thought that that was a make up.

00:43:40:12 - 00:44:00:21

Clark

But I mean, his performance is outstanding. We've talked a little bit about how he you know, I mean, he's such a I mean, he's probably one of the more handsome human beings who have ever existed. And it's really would be easy for him to have traded on that exclusively. And it's he he really allowed himself to age, like you've discussed.

00:44:01:06 - 00:44:25:19

Clark

And, you know, he played a lot of roles where he was this old, cantankerous, cranky person. Nobody's fool is a great example. That's even when he was considerably older in 94, when I considerably less than a decade older. But he allowed himself to age, and I really enjoy that about his performance. Tom Cruise is fantastic. I mean, like Cruise is custom made for this.

00:44:25:19 - 00:44:42:17

Clark

Like, I feel like, you know, the cocky nature with which with which cruise plays. I mean, I can just imagine I don't know if this is true, but Cruise does such a good job that I could just see it as like Cruise. Is this like special charmed life, you know, And he's he's like, great at what he does.

00:44:42:17 - 00:45:01:06

Clark

And he's never not been great at what he does. And, you know, it just shows the effortlessness with which he plays pool. And I mean, the the werewolf, a London scene is just so outstanding. And you know how he uses his cues, Dick is I mean, it's just great, dude. I love it.

00:45:01:06 - 00:45:13:03

Cullen

And he's and he's somewhat similar to, like even just his his cockiness, really. It's interesting that he did this the same year Top Gun because there's definitely that aspect of the character in Top Gun like when you got maverick who's just cocky pilots so.

00:45:13:12 - 00:45:31:09

Clark

And he's made it what he does. I mean that's Tom Cruise's thing, right? It's like he's great at what he does. He's super confident, you know, And that's a big chunk of what he does is that and let's face it, he's great. But here I mean, as we did hint at a little earlier, he allows himself to be goofy, though he he allows himself to be over the top.

00:45:31:16 - 00:45:48:18

Clark

I mean, you know, he's still cool, but he's also you can see the kind of ridiculousness, you can see the cheese factor. You can see, you know, when Newman is like, man, you know, you are a character in these. I didn't say you. I didn't say you had character, but I said, you are a character. Yes, we see that.

00:45:48:18 - 00:46:13:04

Clark

And Cruise allows himself to be in that position, which I think is great. And Mary Elizabeth and I'm like, Boy Mastery Antonio. She I think, is such a bitch. She's like, clearly, you know, not clearly, but she seemed to me to be maybe a few years older. Clearly, she's more seasoned. Clearly, she's she's able to see a few moves ahead further than Cruise's character.

00:46:13:12 - 00:46:36:00

Clark

And she does a fantastic job in that role. And she's kind of in between. I mean, it's not a love triangle at all, but she's kind of in between Fast Eddie and Tom Cruise, and she does a really fantastic job of making this an interesting trifecta, an interesting triangle where Newman is having to kind of play her and cruise.

00:46:36:07 - 00:46:50:08

Clark

Mm hmm. Yeah. And I love the way that that she kind of uses her sexuality to kind of play with both of those characters. It's really quite great. And Forest Whitaker, dude.

00:46:50:16 - 00:47:05:04

Cullen

Oh, Whitaker is he's got one scene and he's always so good. Oh, it's so really I think it's a wonderful scene, too, because that's, I'd say, also one of Newman's best scenes in the movie. If not.

00:47:05:05 - 00:47:19:10

Clark

It's so I mean, it is outstanding. And so yeah, if you want to see an extraordinary scene with two actors just in some butt, check out Newman and Forest Whitaker. In this scene, it's like, what, in the letter ladder? Like.

00:47:19:18 - 00:47:24:18

Cullen

That's about like, I guess I would say that yeah the turning act into Yeah. Three or so Yeah.

00:47:24:20 - 00:47:51:18

Clark

But you know Forest Whitaker just does such an out he is just, he's so unique in this film and he's it's amazing how he's able to play. There's a softness, there's like this real softness to him and like a vulnerability in a strange way. But there's, but, but underneath there is this like, extremely intelligent, cutthroat hustler. But it's, but there's like, mixed in with this kind of, like, vulnerability and softness.

00:47:51:18 - 00:48:13:20

Clark

It's just really quite beautiful and such a contrast to Newman and just it's really wonderful. But yeah, I mean, the performances are strong and music. We haven't talked about that too much. I didn't, you know, really recall the music too much except for like the Clapton song, which, you know, was kind of a minor hit, I think, back then.

00:48:14:03 - 00:48:25:05

Clark

But Robbie Robertson from the band does the score here, and it's like this really interesting, nontraditional kind of score. It's How did you find it? I felt like.

00:48:25:05 - 00:48:29:21

Cullen

I liked it. Yeah, I do like. Robert Robbie Robertson And but it's not really similar to his.

00:48:29:21 - 00:48:31:17

Clark

No, it's not like the band at all.

00:48:31:21 - 00:48:33:08

Cullen

Know another Toronto guy, but how.

00:48:33:08 - 00:48:43:22

Clark

Would you even describe it? Like, how would you. I'm trying to think of like what words I would use to describe the music, the score. I mean, can you think of a way to do it? I mean.

00:48:45:08 - 00:48:57:05

Cullen

I get yeah, it's I can't really think of a genre. It's not like folksy isn't really it? It's sort of like a, like a soft even rock wouldn't really do. Yeah, it's not.

00:48:57:05 - 00:49:04:13

Clark

It's rock. It's not like eighties pop. It's. So I'm trying to think of, like, a musician. Like a musician or a music.

00:49:04:13 - 00:49:06:10

Cullen

Yeah, there's. There's like, some piano.

00:49:06:10 - 00:49:34:22

Clark

And it's a bit eccentric, isn't there? Yeah. And the vocalist, the vocalizations are kind of. I mean, it's not lyrics, but there are vocalizations. It's kind of like. But I felt like it was really effective. It kind of added to it, kind of added a layer of kind of, you know, the unexpected or kind of interesting. And of course, you've got it mixed in and made, you know, Scorsese, a notorious for using rock music in his in his soundtracks.

00:49:34:22 - 00:49:52:15

Clark

And I think it's actually aged fairly well You've got I think, a couple Robert Palmer tracks, older tracks, which I think are really good. You know, he's kind of he was the like might as well face it you're addicted to love, but he's kind of like a blue eyed soul guy. But I think these are older songs than that which I feel like still hold up.

00:49:52:15 - 00:50:13:05

Clark

I mean, I'm not a huge Eric Clapton fan, but I actually think his hit song from this holds up actually pretty well. Warren Zevon. I mean, of course, Werewolves of London is just outstanding. And of course, you know, of course, as he does a lot kinetically with these songs whenever whenever he uses them. Yes. Yeah. Which is kind of his trademark there.

00:50:13:13 - 00:50:17:11

Clark

There are no Rolling Stones songs, though, which is like surprising or.

00:50:18:00 - 00:50:19:19

Cullen

No Doo wop and no rolling show.

00:50:20:03 - 00:50:28:05

Clark

I know, right? It's like how many films of Scorsese can you watch? They don't have either like doo wop or Rolling Stones. There aren't many.

00:50:28:05 - 00:50:40:08

Cullen

No, but I do like the soundtrack. I think it I think it fits really well. Never. Yeah, never imposes on anything. It just kind of is there. Yeah. Yeah. And I like Robbie Robertson. I think he's he's good so.

00:50:40:12 - 00:50:43:11

Clark

And but it is totally different from the band. I thought it was like yeah.

00:50:43:11 - 00:50:47:19

Cullen

I don't go into this expecting, you know, the band to be the score for this.

00:50:47:19 - 00:51:05:16

Clark

Yeah yeah. But I was really intrigued by it. And then, and then we have the, the ending which, you know, you and I talked about this briefly. I, I was surprised, you know, when I was kind of reading a little bit up on the film and kind of reorienting myself to to kind of the context of the film and everything.

00:51:05:16 - 00:51:39:03

Clark

Before we recorded this, I saw that quite a few people were confused, or at least it seemed that quite a few people were kind of confused with the ending or, you know, they kind of didn't like it. They felt like it was kind of patched together or kind of missing. Something actually was one of the biggest complaints that I read about the film was that people felt like there was It was almost as if the ending was missing a scene, you know, like they didn't quite I mean, I I'm trying to remember I feel like when I saw the film originally, when I was younger, I probably didn't get all of the nuance of the

00:51:39:03 - 00:51:54:16

Clark

relationship of Newman and Cruz and, you know, and what they were doing. But I probably didn't care either, you know? But I don't recall, you know, watching it now. It seemed to make quite a bit of sense to me. And it's in you said that you didn't have any issues with.

00:51:54:16 - 00:51:59:06

Cullen

No, no. Yeah, I didn't even I didn't I hadn't actually realized that people did have issues until you brought it up.

00:51:59:07 - 00:52:18:08

Clark

Yeah. Yeah. But to me, I mean, I feel like you've got this. And to me, this is an extremely interesting story, and I'm kind of fascinated with stories about mentors and mentees and, you know, because this is a really interesting relationship that occurs, you know, for all of us throughout our lives, where sometimes mentors were sometimes teachers and were sometimes students and mentees.

00:52:18:08 - 00:52:41:01

Clark

And this is an interesting, complex relationship. And the roles can change at interesting times, and it's why it makes great for films. And I think it's interesting here, too, that I think it's a really beautiful arc and you've kind of got Tom Cruise and Paul Newman basically changing places by the end of the film. Yeah, and that seemed pretty clear to me.

00:52:42:09 - 00:52:43:05

Clark

So yeah, that's.

00:52:43:05 - 00:52:48:22

Cullen

What's interesting is that it again, it's, it, it makes to me complete structural sense.

00:52:49:04 - 00:52:49:12

Clark

Yeah.

00:52:50:04 - 00:52:52:00

Cullen

It doesn't seem to come out of nowhere or.

00:52:52:01 - 00:53:12:06

Clark

Yeah, I think to be even more specific, you know, the part that I that kept tripping people up is as far as like what I was reading was that, you know, we were at the end of the film, it's after the tournament and we're in the green room, I think it is. And Newman's kind of setting up and and Cruz comes busting in and he's like, You used me, you used me.

00:53:12:14 - 00:53:28:17

Clark

And people were like, I don't get it. What do you mean? He used them? And so that's where I think And I don't know if maybe it's like a little bit of Cruz's performance where maybe it was just kind of over the top, a little more than you know, and that kind of threw people off. But but I feel like it made sense to me.

00:53:28:17 - 00:53:30:23

Clark

I mean, I think that, you know, I mean.

00:53:30:23 - 00:53:37:01

Cullen

Yeah, because if you think about it, they've hardly spoken. He or since he left them in that pool hall.

00:53:37:04 - 00:53:38:00

Clark

Right. He abandoned.

00:53:38:00 - 00:53:45:20

Cullen

Humiliated by. So they've they've only spoken a few like maybe three words to each other, even just briefly meeting each other in the hallway.

00:53:46:00 - 00:53:46:07

Clark

Yep.

00:53:46:12 - 00:53:55:09

Cullen

And then. And then. Yeah. And then it's like, of course, Cruz would feel used because it's like, oh, you know, you. You walked out on us.

00:53:55:09 - 00:54:12:23

Clark

Yeah. And now you said that you were going to you were going to be my mentor, you were going to teach me. And of course, what ends up really kind of happened, I mean, he did he is like Newman definitely teaches him how to hustle. And of course, by the end of the film, you see that that Cruz is actually completely switched.

00:54:12:23 - 00:54:34:00

Clark

I mean, Cruz is now the ruthless, effective hustler. He no longer plays the game for the game itself. He no longer plays it to be the best pool player. He's playing pool in order to hustle money from other people. So his orientation to the game has completely changed. And depending on your perspective on things, you could you could say that he was corrupted.

00:54:34:00 - 00:54:49:17

Clark

That would be one way to potentially look at it. It's kind of how I see it personally. And now Newman has gone from being the the hustler and the person who only cared about money to only caring about playing, being the best pool player he can be. Yeah.

00:54:50:09 - 00:54:50:17

Cullen

Yeah.

00:54:50:21 - 00:55:09:08

Clark

But, but I think Cruz kind of sees that, you know, what ended up happening was that Newman he feels like Newman used him to get back into the game. So it's like, Oh, you didn't actually you weren't trying to do anything for me at all, ever. You were just trying to get back into the game.

00:55:09:17 - 00:55:09:22

Cullen

Yeah.

00:55:10:15 - 00:55:26:17

Clark

So that's how I interpret it. Now, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I kind of felt about it. But I just thought it was interesting that there is because, you know, sometimes in these films where there's kind of role reversals, kind of con stories, hustler stories, that stuff can kind of get plots, can get confused.

00:55:26:17 - 00:55:30:01

Clark

But I felt like this was like very straightforward and very effective.

00:55:30:01 - 00:55:32:03

Cullen

So no, definitely, yeah.

00:55:32:03 - 00:55:36:15

Clark

All right. And, well, I think unless you've got anything else that you'd like to bring up about the film.

00:55:36:15 - 00:55:37:20

Cullen

No, I think we've covered plenty.

00:55:37:22 - 00:55:46:15

Clark

We've touched on, you know, like I mean, obviously you could talk about a film forever, but, you know, that'd be crazy if we had, you know, our our memory cards only have so many hours, so.

00:55:47:01 - 00:55:47:18

Cullen

Mm hmm. Yeah.

00:55:48:00 - 00:56:03:17

Clark

Yeah, but. But. But it was a pleasure, man. This is one of my favorites from way back when I was a kid. I'm glad that you enjoyed it, too. It's always fun. It's always fun when I get to pick a film that you haven't seen yet. That's a joy to me. So, yeah, I. I'm happy that you enjoyed it.

00:56:03:17 - 00:56:15:20

Clark

I enjoyed our conversation. I hope everybody out there, I hope you enjoyed it as well. If you if you haven't seen this film, go see it to be crazy. It'd weird if you'd listen to this whole thing and you hadn't seen the film. Maybe you did that, I don't know.

00:56:16:03 - 00:56:21:20

Cullen

And I just made the whole thing for you. We spoke or you're watching it while we talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. Commentary track.

00:56:21:20 - 00:56:40:23

Clark

We should do, like, a commentary track sometime. We will have to think of something fun for our 50th episode. We're going to hold us to that. We're going to have to do that. We'll think of something fun. But in the meantime, everybody have a wonderful couple of weeks. We look forward to coming back together and recording another episode for you soon.

00:56:41:04 - 00:56:43:14

Clark

And until then, everybody, take care.

00:56:43:22 - 00:56:52:01

Cullen

Bye bye.

Episode - 047 - Enemy

Cullen

Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I'm joined today, as always, by Clark Coffey.

00:00:16:20 - 00:00:18:01

Clark

Hello. Hello, lovely.

00:00:18:01 - 00:00:18:18

Cullen

Co-Host.

00:00:19:09 - 00:00:20:13

Clark

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

00:00:20:20 - 00:00:30:09

Cullen

Yeah. Yeah. Today we're doing Denis Villeneuve's enemy from 2013. I'm, of course, episode 47. So we were nearly at 50, which is crazy.

00:00:30:09 - 00:00:43:19

Clark

It's kind of crazy. It's amazing. And I'm excited for this conversation. This is. Yeah, Your Choice and a fellow Canadian filmmaker from Toronto, or at least if he's I don't know if he's from Toronto. Oh, yeah.

00:00:43:19 - 00:00:44:09

Cullen

He's from.

00:00:44:14 - 00:00:53:05

Clark

Montreal. He's from Quebec. But this is this of course, this film takes place and very prominently highlights Toronto. Yeah. So that's.

00:00:53:05 - 00:01:11:05

Cullen

Just right. Well, he's actually from Trois-Rivieres, but that's a small town, so. Yeah, Montreal but and Quebec. But yeah, so he yeah, this is a one of the few movies again that we kind of, we discussed this about when we were doing The Fly where I said that there's a lot of movies that are shot in Toronto, but very few actually take place in Toronto.

00:01:11:12 - 00:01:16:19

Cullen

Yeah, usually it's like subbing out for New York or Chicago or some generic kind of American city.

00:01:17:00 - 00:01:29:01

Clark

Yep. And this is this is very clearly Toronto. And I have to say it makes Toronto, which is a beautiful city. And I've been there personally and it's a beautiful city. Boy, this film makes Toronto look horrible.

00:01:30:09 - 00:01:47:15

Cullen

Yeah, lots of it's like I always laugh at that how And I said this before, but we I was watching this set of friends and we were in like a condo and there's like a nice view of the lake. And you can see you can actually see the building that we were in in the movie. But there's, you know, you can see the city and it's it's a really beautiful view.

00:01:47:21 - 00:01:56:23

Cullen

Yeah. And it was so funny watching the movie and kind of like turning my head to the right, looking out the window and seeing what the city actually looks like versus what the movie makes. It's smoggy.

00:01:57:01 - 00:02:00:11

Clark

Is yellows aggressive? Yeah. Yeah.

00:02:00:18 - 00:02:03:23

Cullen

And with giant spiders in the sky, of course, if.

00:02:03:23 - 00:02:05:19

Clark

It's giant spiders in the sky. Yeah.

00:02:05:19 - 00:02:23:18

Cullen

But yeah, it's, it's interesting. Um, I would say that this is a very Canadian movie and, and we're going to get into kind of more with there's later it's intriguing to me very it's got a lot of like Canadian identity in it in terms of the way that and perhaps for better or for worse in some ways sometimes it's a pro sometimes it's a con.

00:02:23:18 - 00:02:31:21

Cullen

But yeah, yeah, I mean, I, I guess we can kind of get into kind of our, our first impressions in context or.

00:02:31:21 - 00:02:49:22

Clark

Even or even maybe if you want to just do just a, just a hair before we do that, you know, it's kind of you and I, you know, so just so everybody out there listening kind of knows and you probably suspect, you know, we pop on for a brief period of time before we record. And, you know, we kind of very, very high level kind of discuss the film.

00:02:49:22 - 00:03:05:07

Clark

And, you know, we kind of break out a few notes of things that we want to talk to, but we don't pre can this or preplan this. It's all improvised, recorded live and we don't even edit it. You know, it's like we present this thing as one big old slab of an hour long conversation and that's that.

00:03:05:07 - 00:03:07:07

Cullen

So raw conversation, no.

00:03:07:07 - 00:03:27:10

Clark

Tricks up our sleeves of any kind. But but we were talking about and I think it's interesting, you know, this film was made in, what, 2013, so not not too long ago, but I think in eight years, you know, we've seen some interesting things kind of happen or the progression of things that have been happening for a while in the film industry have been happening.

00:03:27:10 - 00:04:04:14

Clark

And of course, especially COVID has had a big impact on cinema and the theatrical experience with film. But, you know, you brought up a good question during that conversation, which was like, you know, is this a good example of a film that would have a difficult time being made and theatrically released today? You know, and we were kind of talking about how this is likely a film that, you know, maybe would have would end up on Netflix now or Amazon Prime and, you know, maybe would end up, you know, just as sort of one of like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of films kind of, you know, buried amongst all the quote unquote, content.

00:04:04:14 - 00:04:18:00

Clark

But but, I mean, you know, that's a good question. You know, And what are your thoughts on that? I mean, this film is definitely it's an esoteric it's a it's a film that has it's definitely not a marvel movie.

00:04:18:00 - 00:04:47:03

Cullen

It's not a blockbuster by any means. You know, I think that it's I sort of described it as like a relic of a time past, in a sense, in that like it feels very seventies in a way, seventies, kind of eighties or even, you know, I know that this is this is nineties. But, you know, I always sort of think of like eyes wide shut when I think of this movie in that it's like a big but again this is not an old movie This is 2013.

00:04:47:03 - 00:04:58:10

Cullen

Yeah. But the amount that the film industry has changed in the past 510 years is I think, you know, basically a ton. I mean it's, it's yeah, it's, it's, it's astronomical.

00:04:58:10 - 00:05:02:16

Clark

Especially, you know and COVID has hastened that, you know, the past.

00:05:03:05 - 00:05:22:13

Cullen

Has it's kind of it's been the straw that broke the camel's back but in many senses. But but that this you know, this movie reminds me again I said to Eyes Wide Shut, but it also kind of tonally reminds me almost of like the conversation, like it's this surreal kind of paranoia, thriller, drama. And, you know, movies like that aren't really made like that anymore.

00:05:22:13 - 00:05:29:02

Cullen

Like and let alone shown in theaters with budgets of, you know what? I'm not quite sure of me trying to pull up the number here real quick.

00:05:29:11 - 00:05:36:05

Clark

I think we're looking at it. Is it? Yeah, it's I don't see any numbers available right off the top, but, you know, I mean, yeah, I'd.

00:05:36:05 - 00:05:38:04

Cullen

Say it made for a few million dollars probably.

00:05:38:04 - 00:05:56:16

Clark

Probably not much. But you know, Jake Gyllenhaal, you know, he did a couple of films with Disney back to back, I think. And so I'm not quite sure, you know, if they did kind of a multi pick deal or kind of, you know, how much he got paid for this, you know, and but yeah, I you know, it's interesting.

00:05:56:16 - 00:06:23:09

Clark

I and we're going to get into this, you know, kind of you know, what are what our experiences were with the film. And I'm going to I'll kind of cheat a little bit and share that. You know, I didn't really enjoy this film much, but and we'll get into this. But I really respect the film and I'm appreciative of the film and I'm appreciative that Danny is working in the industry that he is, that he's a filmmaker that's making films.

00:06:23:15 - 00:06:46:12

Clark

And I appreciate this, that this film exists. And I would love to see more films like this being released theatrically, you know, mature films made for adult viewing audience, you know, exploring interesting and complex adult issues.

00:06:46:17 - 00:06:47:05

Cullen

That.

00:06:47:13 - 00:07:08:13

Clark

And making strong artistic choices, which, I mean, look, you can say all kinds of things about this film, but the one thing that's undeniable is that there are strong choices being made in this film. And I and even if I am not thrilled by those choices, I'm always thrilled by the fact that somebody actually made strong choices.

00:07:08:14 - 00:07:16:08

Cullen

I, I think it's interesting is our reaction to this movie is very much kind of two sides of the same coin.

00:07:16:08 - 00:07:16:17

Clark

Yeah.

00:07:17:01 - 00:07:33:20

Cullen

Whereas you you don't necessarily enjoy it a lot. I agree with all of the things that make you not enjoy it. But, you know, I disagree on a stylistic level with this movie a ton. It's not a movie that I think I would ever like. I would never shoot a movie in this style. And I don't just mean subject matter or a story.

00:07:33:20 - 00:07:51:10

Cullen

I think that that's a really engaging and intriguing part of the movie, and I love those types of movies. But yeah, purely from a stylistic sense, purely from a visual, you know, the way the camera moves, the cinematography, the movie. I would never shoot anything like this. No filter. Yes. Yeah. And it's yeah, it's super yellow and stuff like that.

00:07:51:10 - 00:07:57:00

Cullen

And I very wholeheartedly disagree with that on a like artistic, personal. Yeah.

00:07:57:07 - 00:07:57:12

Clark

Yeah.

00:07:57:12 - 00:08:15:12

Cullen

But I find it really fascinating too. I find that it's almost I can't look away from and it's not a movie that, you know, I don't think that Villeneuve was trying to make or Nicholas Bolduc, who did the cinematography, were trying to make this movie look pretty. It's very obvious that they were trying to make. Yes. You know.

00:08:15:12 - 00:08:37:04

Cullen

QUESTION And and it works. And it was not a pretty, pretty movie. But but and I but I think it's so fascinating because of that that it's like to me it's like you're looking at this image and it's so yellow or that the landscape shots are like the big establishing shots of the city are so smoggy and gross and they make you feel almost like you're in like a bayou, like it's like sweaty.

00:08:37:04 - 00:08:41:06

Cullen

And, you know, just it's it's not appealing in any way.

00:08:41:06 - 00:09:00:02

Clark

Like, I mean, in Los Angeles in the seventies what it makes the guy. Yeah, but okay, so we're going to talk about that because I think this is really interesting. This is you know, now, look, I think this is a compliment to the film, the fact that we're here, that we're talking about it, and that there's like there's the complexity of of of this issue to even discuss, I think is worth while.

00:09:00:02 - 00:09:27:07

Clark

I mean, this is huge points, you know, in favor of the film. You know, absolutely. This idea that something can be esthetically unpleasing that can be unattractive, that can be, you know, even unsettled. And clearly, I mean, there's a lot of films that discuss unsettling things that as subject matter, as content, as plot device, you know, that is disturbing, unsettling, you know, fearful.

00:09:27:07 - 00:09:41:11

Clark

I mean, all of these negative emotions are commonly explored in film. But I think this film, like, uses the very medium like use, you know, like is visually disturbing. And, you know, I don't know, you know, I mean, they were not of for I.

00:09:41:11 - 00:09:42:06

Cullen

Think should be.

00:09:42:07 - 00:09:44:00

Clark

Esthetically pleasing, you know.

00:09:44:06 - 00:10:02:14

Cullen

Yeah. I chuckled there for a minute because I'm just I'm just sort of imagining having this conversation in a in a in a forum of like, you know, a big pop culture podcast where it's almost it's what's bizarre about those things is that it's almost impossible to criticize a movie. It's like you either love everything about it or you hate everything about it.

00:10:02:18 - 00:10:20:15

Cullen

Yeah. So I find it like, you know, I find it so refreshing to be able to have a conversation about a movie that I actually really, really like, but that I can also say like, Oh, man, it's ugly. Like, you know, it's it's funny to me that, that things like that are kind of so especially in like very mainstream senses and like, very popular media.

00:10:20:19 - 00:10:25:18

Cullen

It's it's rare to find conversations like that. So I'm glad that, you know, we're able to discuss it.

00:10:25:19 - 00:10:41:10

Clark

And that's, you know, it's the most fun thing. Like, that's what I love doing here. So let's let's, let's do talk about then let's shift to. So tell me a little bit about your personal experience with the film. I just and I want to remind people because I think it's kind of interesting that there's like a decent age difference between the two of us.

00:10:41:10 - 00:11:02:20

Clark

So, yeah, you know, the age at which I first saw this film, which I'll get to after you, is like quite a bit different than the age that you saw this film out. Not that I'm suggesting for a moment that age is some monolithic kind of, you know, decider. But it is interesting to kind of explore the different age period of your life that you kind of come in contact with.

00:11:02:20 - 00:11:05:16

Clark

Art can definitely, like have an impact, you know? Totally.

00:11:05:21 - 00:11:10:08

Cullen

Yeah. I mean, because what we're I think we're about 23 years apart. Yeah, we're about 20.

00:11:10:08 - 00:11:12:17

Clark

Yes. Yeah, I'm 45. So. Yeah.

00:11:12:20 - 00:11:40:01

Cullen

So 22. Yeah, yeah. So so yeah, definitely different like mean like different childhood experiences and things like that. Totally different worlds that we grew up in. Yeah. But I think what's kind of interesting about that is, is again, just that like the sense that I get from this is that it's a going to move from a bygone era, whereas the sense that you might get from it is because you probably grew up more so in a sense where movies like this were way more common.

00:11:40:01 - 00:12:01:12

Cullen

And I even, you know, even my childhood was was filled with films that were, you know, the early 2000s and the film industry today are completely different beasts. They're totally different things. Yeah. But I yeah, I can't help but shake the sense that, that this movie either would not be picked up at all today by a like a big distribution company and would never see the light of day theatrically.

00:12:02:04 - 00:12:23:04

Cullen

Or it would be something so relegated to, you know, a special screening for like a few days. And then that would be kind of, you know, what it's shown as. But, but yeah, I think that the other thing about it is the subject matter, which you know, of course is a lot about adultery and, you know, affairs and this whole idea of like split personality and banality of life.

00:12:23:04 - 00:12:44:12

Cullen

Like I think a big the monotony of of of his everyday life in this movie I think is a huge theme. Yeah. And you, of course have, you know experienced things like that. You said that you've worked office jobs, that you felt like you were hitting your head against a brick wall every day. Whereas I haven't. I was I was lucky enough to.

00:12:44:12 - 00:12:52:09

Cullen

Yeah. Kind of land into doing a lot of film gigs, you know, early on out of out of high school. So I yeah, thank God I never had to deal with that.

00:12:52:09 - 00:13:12:16

Clark

Yeah, well, you know, and even hey, look, it's, it's, there's no, you know, it's not a magical escape from the realities of life to work in film either. You will also suffer some of the, you know, the, the cyclical nature of some things in life. The patterns of life can sometimes be oppressive regardless of industry that you're in.

00:13:13:00 - 00:13:17:18

Clark

Yeah, but how old were you when you saw the film and did you see it when it was released? Like.

00:13:18:03 - 00:13:26:17

Cullen

Yeah, I didn't see it and I didn't see it in theaters. Okay, So it came in 2013 actually. Let me see what the exact time of year it came out, because I can tell you.

00:13:26:17 - 00:13:28:01

Clark

Pretty much, I think September ish.

00:13:28:01 - 00:13:44:00

Cullen

So September 8th. Yeah. So it premiered at TIFF. Yeah. And then that would have been when I was in grade ten. Yeah. So it came out when I was in grade ten, I think I saw it the first time when I was in Grade 11. And again, it was funny I that this is my first Villeneuve movie.

00:13:44:06 - 00:13:45:00

Clark

Yeah.

00:13:45:00 - 00:14:12:09

Cullen

And I only watched it because the like it's both. It takes place in Toronto and the neighboring city, Mississauga, which is where I live. Yeah. And that to me is really interesting as a Toronto so rarely mentioned in cinema, but also like even less so of course Mississauga, which is basically just a suburb, but yeah, you know, and there's things like, oh, he drives by like Rathburn Road and Rathburn Road is the place where there's like a big IMAX theater.

00:14:12:09 - 00:14:13:11

Cullen

So it's like he's ah, recognizing.

00:14:13:12 - 00:14:14:05

Clark

Yeah, sure.

00:14:14:05 - 00:14:25:10

Cullen

Fun living in L.A. you've, you've got a lot of that. And so that's really why I watched it, because my friend was like, yeah, one of the places that he goes is like, there's those I don't know if you remember in the movie there was those weird kind of shaped towers.

00:14:25:12 - 00:14:26:17

Clark

Yeah, they're beautiful. Yeah.

00:14:26:17 - 00:14:44:18

Cullen

Yeah. So those are called the Marilyn Monroe buildings here. Oh, wow. Like, designed to kind of look like Marilyn Monroe in there. Those are kind of like the centerpiece of, like, the Mississauga skyline. And so it's so funny seeing those because, like, you can pretty much, you know, like, I'm I'm so close and still he's my friend being like, yeah, the Marilyn Monroe buildings are in them and stuff.

00:14:45:05 - 00:14:46:07

Cullen

And I'm like, that's so we're.

00:14:46:13 - 00:14:49:06

Clark

Just, just sorry to, to like, you know, for, know.

00:14:49:10 - 00:14:49:13

Cullen

Where.

00:14:49:20 - 00:14:53:06

Clark

Are they. What are that, Is that actually what they're called or.

00:14:53:06 - 00:14:55:22

Cullen

No. So they're, I think they're called absolute World Towers.

00:14:55:22 - 00:14:56:14

Clark

Oh okay.

00:14:56:22 - 00:14:57:02

Cullen

Yeah.

00:14:57:02 - 00:15:00:05

Clark

But if you but everybody just calls them Marilyn Monroe, that's.

00:15:00:11 - 00:15:20:19

Cullen

Really because they're designed to look kind of like her figure. I see. But yeah, so those so that was literally like I had no real knowledge of Villeneuve at the point. At that point I heard of him because he made a pretty big movie here called Polytechnique, which was about a school shooting that happened to, you know, a few quite a while ago.

00:15:20:19 - 00:15:40:19

Cullen

I can't remember the exact year of it. Yeah, and that was a big thing in Canada. So he kind of made his name up here with that movie and Incendies, which was was kind of big here as well. Yeah. But I'd never seen either of those. And so this was really my first Villeneuve movie. And yeah, again, I didn't know anything about it going into it.

00:15:40:19 - 00:16:08:18

Cullen

I like the only reason I was watching it was because I thought it would be cool to kind of point out locations that I knew. Sure. And again, even back then, I was like, so mesmerized by this movie and so enthralled by how grounded it feels and that the visual effects are always like, you know, there's there's there's not a lot of visual effects in this, but the visual effects that are in there are so ingrained in the world that this movie presents that they're never presented as shocking or out of the ordinary.

00:16:09:14 - 00:16:19:18

Cullen

You know, I could see this movie being directed in a completely different way where the image of the giant spider walking over Toronto was done in a way that makes it shocking to the viewer in the.

00:16:19:18 - 00:16:21:20

Clark

Sensationalized, dramatic.

00:16:21:20 - 00:16:43:12

Cullen

Round looking up at it or something like that. But it literally just cuts to an establishing shot of Toronto with a giant spider. Yeah, you know, there you go, fanfare about it. So I think that that was really what kind of encapsulated me And it also like I almost forgive me for kind of a simplifying perhaps the direction of only of here, but it almost to me also sort of feels like it Villeneuve doing like Fincher in a way.

00:16:43:23 - 00:16:45:18

Cullen

Oh, it feels a lot.

00:16:46:06 - 00:16:47:03

Clark

That's interesting. Sort of.

00:16:47:03 - 00:16:47:13

Cullen

Like.

00:16:47:17 - 00:16:48:17

Clark

That's interesting. Like The.

00:16:48:17 - 00:16:50:06

Cullen

Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and, you.

00:16:50:06 - 00:16:50:19

Clark

Know, I.

00:16:50:19 - 00:16:51:13

Cullen

Tonal sense.

00:16:51:13 - 00:17:06:05

Clark

I feel like in some senses these two directors are actually very similar because they also get often a kind of cold kind of clinical kind of detached, technical feeling from Fincher in a lot of his movies. Yeah. And I get that feeling with Disney, too.

00:17:07:10 - 00:17:14:22

Cullen

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Especially, I mean, Dune just came out. Yeah. And I think that's like I thought Dune was decent. I enjoyed it. I saw it. Yeah.

00:17:14:22 - 00:17:15:14

Clark

I thought it was.

00:17:15:14 - 00:17:17:02

Cullen

Like, especially in IMAX. It was.

00:17:17:02 - 00:17:18:07

Clark

It was I wasn't washed away.

00:17:19:09 - 00:17:23:12

Cullen

But a lot of people's complaints about that movie is exactly this kind of sterility that there's not a lot of.

00:17:23:14 - 00:17:28:16

Clark

We're going to get to that, too. You've got a really interesting take, you know, and I've never really thought about it. I want to see it now. I want to save it.

00:17:28:16 - 00:17:30:03

Cullen

But this. Yes. Yeah, we'll get to that.

00:17:30:03 - 00:17:50:21

Clark

As you called it. Yeah. The Canadian curse you called it. And obviously you don't have to be Canadian for for a filmmaker to kind of maybe be considered category. But we're going to get to that, that I was really intrigued by this idea. So. Okay, so you see it at a grade ten. That's a sophomore in high school here, and you were captivated by it right off the bat.

00:17:51:16 - 00:17:54:05

Cullen

Yeah. And I thought that, you know, and it was one of those things.

00:17:54:12 - 00:18:00:16

Clark

Do you feel like do you remember, like what it made you think about, What it made you feel was it just.

00:18:00:17 - 00:18:09:14

Cullen

I think it was just a lot. I mean, I've always been super into, as I mentioned, like this like seventies parent, like, I'd like the conversation has always been one of my favorite movies. Yeah.

00:18:09:22 - 00:18:10:17

Clark

I love that film.

00:18:10:17 - 00:18:32:04

Cullen

Yeah. All the President's Men blow up. And then again, as I already have mentioned, as well as like Eyes Wide Shut, I find that to be sort of fascinating, Intriguing movie. I like. I again it's what, what I, I, what bothers me so much is that I find it so difficult to describe necessarily what I like about this movie in detail other than the fact that I just it puts me like it's almost like a trance.

00:18:32:04 - 00:18:32:19

Cullen

Like, it's like this.

00:18:32:19 - 00:18:33:01

Clark

Is.

00:18:33:02 - 00:18:49:21

Cullen

Such it's so far out from mesmerizing ever do that it that it makes me think a lot about the just the way that the story is told that there's not really like a rising action there's not you doesn't put any emphasis on on pressure or suspense or things like that but it's and yet there's not such a.

00:18:49:21 - 00:19:24:20

Clark

Dynamic movie range. Yeah. So I'm curious like, you know, of it like okay, so we talk a lot in the, you know, in this podcast as kind of filmmakers ourself and cinephiles ourselves and, you know, I mean, oftentimes we'll get very technical, we get pretty granular, but I don't want to miss either like kind of, you know, we're just like audience is to you know, we're just like, we're just human beings and we we watch films and we're moved or not moved or, you know, and I'm just kind of curious if you could elaborate any bit, little bit more, just as like and just as an audience member, like watching the story be told in

00:19:24:20 - 00:19:32:17

Clark

front of you with moving pictures, do you recall kind of, you know, what you know, any other ways that I might super like?

00:19:32:17 - 00:19:52:17

Cullen

I think that the thing was that I was I was strangely invested in. That's one of the things that I think we were also kind of want to discuss is that there's like a very big disconnect with feeling what the characters are feeling. This movie that you don't really you don't you're not really like, attached or like rooting for Gyllenhaal to kind of like, figure this out.

00:19:52:17 - 00:19:53:01

Cullen

Your mom or.

00:19:53:01 - 00:19:53:11

Clark

Any of the.

00:19:53:11 - 00:20:10:00

Cullen

Care along the ride with them. Exactly. You don't really get to know many of the characters very well. Right. But I think at the same time, I think what kind of like hooked me about it was just that I was still so like, it's like peeling off a Band-Aid. Like, it's like you're I'm still just waiting to see what's under there.

00:20:10:00 - 00:20:17:02

Cullen

And like, what what is making the movie tick? And it's okay. It's a really kind of odd sensation, a curiosity.

00:20:17:02 - 00:20:18:07

Clark

It's like. It's like almost.

00:20:18:12 - 00:20:18:18

Cullen

Like a.

00:20:18:23 - 00:20:19:19

Clark

Curiosity.

00:20:19:19 - 00:20:23:01

Cullen

Maybe you're curious. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's my curiosity.

00:20:23:01 - 00:20:49:06

Clark

I respect that, man. That's very interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. And especially at that age, you're kind of younger. I mean, obviously, like the subject matter and themes of this film are intense. And so I was just curious kind of as a younger person, you know, how that film might have made you feel. And I remember, too, you know, when I was and this is kind of sad in a way, it really we're just digressing all over the place on this podcast.

00:20:49:06 - 00:20:59:15

Clark

But, you know, I feel like I was it was much easier for me to be significantly emotionally affected by film when I was younger. Now, of course, it.

00:21:00:04 - 00:21:00:08

Cullen

Makes.

00:21:00:08 - 00:21:39:10

Clark

Sense and it absolutely still happens to me today. Of course. I mean, you know, I didn't turn into a robot, but there is a difference between a pre-teen and teenage mind and then the mind of a 45 year old person. We we evolve. We go through more life and and I but I think there's like this sweet spot, you know, of almost like kind of 12 to maybe 20 or something where, you know, your hormones are kind of go in and your life seems like everything is kind of new and an experience and, and you really like I think we're we're open to much more range of emotional experience at that age.

00:21:39:10 - 00:21:54:05

Cullen

And who knows if I would have like had the same like if I had watched this movie for the first time now. Yeah. What I would never know reacted similarly or would I have, you know, had sort of a more of an approach that you had where it's like kind of the stuff that I like is more set in stone in a way.

00:21:54:14 - 00:21:57:01

Cullen

Yeah, in that. And so I wonder.

00:21:57:05 - 00:21:59:08

Clark

Yeah, it's just interesting to say because like you.

00:21:59:08 - 00:22:01:13

Cullen

Did you see this in theaters or do you remember.

00:22:01:19 - 00:22:27:05

Clark

So yeah, so, so for me, I didn't watch it in the theater. I do remember, you know, seeing like preview footage of it and being and certainly like, you know, the esthetic caught my eye. I mean, you know, there's no like, this doesn't look like any other film I've seen, you know, And I think some of the promo footage showed like the spider landscape of Toronto and, you know, everything is yellow and and it's it's quite striking.

00:22:27:05 - 00:22:40:23

Clark

And I was like, woo, okay, I don't know anything about this, but it's different. And of course, that caught my attention. I'm like, this is different. This is not Marvel. This is not, you know, I'm like, which which wasn't as dominating and to 23.

00:22:40:23 - 00:22:43:13

Cullen

Yeah, because of The Avengers. The first Avengers movie had just come.

00:22:43:13 - 00:22:44:18

Clark

Out the year before.

00:22:44:18 - 00:22:44:22

Cullen

This.

00:22:44:22 - 00:23:23:23

Clark

So but I was like, Oh, okay, this looks interesting. Now. I did not go see it at the theater, though. I ended up not seeing it the theater. But I think once it was finally released at home, I did watch it at home. And I you know, I don't remember being, you know, particularly emotionally moved. I, I, I was kind of I don't know, I think the distance at which the film kind of kept me with them with it's kind of like the you know, that it's so symbolic and such like it's I feel like it's just a big metaphor, which is okay, you know, But, but I think it kind of kept me from

00:23:24:20 - 00:23:46:12

Clark

from empathizing with the characters and kind of putting myself in any of those characters positions in the film, which I think is one of the big ways that I enter a story is that I, you know, I would many of us do, of course, you know, where I kind of pick a character that I and that can change throughout the whole movie, you know, And maybe in this scene, I feel related to that character.

00:23:46:12 - 00:24:04:13

Clark

And then the next scene, I feel related to this character and go back and forth and everything. But I felt like it was there was no entrance into this film for me in that way where I could put myself in the shoes of any of these characters and kind of feel with them. So, so that was a challenge that kept me at a distance.

00:24:04:13 - 00:24:24:23

Clark

The other thing that kept me at a distance, and it's definitely on purpose, is the esthetic of the film, which we'll get into a little more when we talk about direction and cinematography. So I think the combination of the esthetic of the film and this, the kind of removed the distance that the characters are kept from us, I think kept me from really feeling connected to this picture.

00:24:26:05 - 00:24:39:13

Cullen

And I think you described, interestingly, um, sort of like that there's like almost hinges of not like an amateurish sense, but the storytelling style is sort of feels almost like, like student film.

00:24:39:13 - 00:24:41:02

Clark

Well, and that's so.

00:24:41:02 - 00:24:54:13

Cullen

I, and I think that what's interesting about that is that, you know, I know exactly what you mean in that like student films and I know I'm guilty of this in movies that I made when I was younger as well, where you almost try to keep things like intriguingly vague.

00:24:54:17 - 00:24:55:03

Clark

Yes.

00:24:55:11 - 00:24:57:23

Cullen

And that's the kind of that's how you're and I actually.

00:24:57:23 - 00:24:58:23

Clark

And it's like you're never.

00:24:58:23 - 00:25:21:13

Cullen

Sation with someone the other day because they were they were they're writing a screenplay that they want me to direct. But they they're, you know, just kind of starting out. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of like their, like film career and stuff like that. And so that was one of the pointers that I gave them was I was like, If you really want to set this aside from like a lot of other short films that will go up on YouTube or Vimeo and stuff, it's like, take all the vagueness out of it.

00:25:21:16 - 00:25:42:19

Cullen

Yes. Make it something that's super clear and concise and efficient in the way that you tell the story. Whereas and it doesn't necessarily bother me a ton with this just because I think that the atmosphere of the movie is really intriguing. Interesting. Mm hmm. But no, I totally get you. You mean like I. Yeah, I made movies when I was younger or where, you know, it's like.

00:25:42:19 - 00:25:47:06

Cullen

Oh, like, yeah. Every way that character can communicate is everything is brooding.

00:25:47:06 - 00:26:04:11

Clark

Yeah, Everything is is glacial. And, and so. So then, yeah. So fast forward now, you know, because I watch this probably in 2014 or 2015 when it first came out. So fast forward six years and I watched it of course, again last night in preparation for this. And, you know, I felt I felt all those same things again.

00:26:05:06 - 00:26:22:01

Clark

But yes, as you mentioned, you know, and and not to be rude to student filmmakers and because I have been there myself and it's a shorthand, I think, to me an amateur or you know, filmmakers who are kind of just people, that's all. I mean, so.

00:26:22:06 - 00:26:23:15

Cullen

It's a negative context. Yeah.

00:26:23:15 - 00:26:46:11

Clark

So, yes, I don't mean any disrespect to anyone at all. It's just a shorthand for and I've been there too. So where I think vagueness replaces decisions, that's what I think we're kind of talking about for that. But I don't feel like that's what's taking place here. I don't feel like no vagueness is replacing the decisions that need to be made as an artist for a film.

00:26:47:03 - 00:27:20:04

Clark

But I think what I mean here about the kind of a student student student film feel for me here is is is more superficial, is more just about I think kind of the the one note ness of the film, the the glacial pace of the film. The the brooding over the images. Those are kind of the elements that I think superficially remind me of a lot of amateur work that I've seen.

00:27:20:18 - 00:27:39:18

Clark

But the big difference, though, is that I really do feel like this is this is strong conscious decisions by this film maker as opposed to, you know, the lack of a strong decision being made. And that's why there's vagueness for an amateur filmmaker. So I do think it's fundamentally different, but I think in some ways they look the same, if that makes sense.

00:27:39:18 - 00:27:40:06

Clark

Totally.

00:27:40:08 - 00:27:58:06

Cullen

No, that makes absolute sense. Yeah, I think that that's yeah, there's like, hints of it. Um, but it's almost odd that it's done in a not odd in a, in a negative sense, but it's that, it's that the way that I would describe it is that there's, there's an intentional self-awareness to it.

00:27:58:08 - 00:27:58:17

Clark

Yeah.

00:27:59:02 - 00:28:07:01

Cullen

Yeah. As opposed to a student film just trying to mask the lack of a story with vagueness and stuff like that, which again, we've all been there.

00:28:07:06 - 00:28:28:05

Clark

We've all been there, we've all been there. And I and I get it, you know, because I know one of the first things that, you know, a lot of like I just working with a writer recently and I had kind of the same feedback as the story you described. You know, they were I could tell in reading the script that they were hyper concerned about giving away too much about being too literal, about being on the nose.

00:28:28:05 - 00:28:50:03

Clark

And that fear was so great that that so many things were lost and not communicated to the audience in the script because of that fear. And so the reaction to that fear was, was a such an overcompensation that I was like, I don't even know what the heck is going on here, dude. You know, like, nobody that watches this film, if it's made from the script as it is now, is even going to know what in the world you're talking about.

00:28:50:03 - 00:29:08:18

Clark

So, no, exactly. You know, so sometimes I think, you know, having a confidence in the story that you're telling is important and that comes with age and experience, you know, or this experience, you know, and this clearly is a confident film. Like I would never say, wow, this is not a confident film. It's definitely a confidently made film.

00:29:08:18 - 00:29:20:17

Clark

I mean, yeah. And let's talk a little bit more about that direction then. I mean, you know this. So what did we say? This sits kind of in the middle of of Danny's filmography. He kind.

00:29:20:17 - 00:29:27:06

Cullen

Of, yeah, this is kind of I guess the the, I would say the middle of his filmography, but almost like the right on the start of his big.

00:29:27:06 - 00:29:29:11

Clark

Big international. Yeah, yeah. Like where.

00:29:29:16 - 00:29:33:18

Cullen

He did prisoners the same years this which is totally different movie feels completely different.

00:29:33:18 - 00:29:36:15

Clark

And I think that's his first American film, right I think.

00:29:36:15 - 00:29:40:04

Cullen

Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. Film. Deakins Like did the cinematography for it.

00:29:40:04 - 00:29:48:14

Clark

And so yeah, so that was big. And then I think Enemy is a smaller film. I don't think that was a huge thing for him. But then it Ha yo was, was released.

00:29:48:20 - 00:29:49:00

Cullen

Yeah.

00:29:49:01 - 00:30:05:18

Clark

I mean that was, that was a that's a, that's a very much more traditional film. It was huge. I think Arrival had a, had a really it was really well-received. Obviously Blade Runner was gigantic and I mean that if you didn't know who he was before Blade Runner 2049, then you knew who he was.

00:30:05:20 - 00:30:13:14

Cullen

He's become he's become the point where, you know, I think as most directors aspire to be, where it's like his name is a part of the advertising.

00:30:13:14 - 00:30:14:02

Clark

Yeah, yeah.

00:30:14:04 - 00:30:19:17

Cullen

You know, but that when Dune came out, it's Denis Villeneuve's Dune. It's just dune. Exactly. This guy.

00:30:19:20 - 00:30:30:17

Clark

It's a big deal. So. So clearly he's one of the biggest I think he's one of the biggest directors working today, especially with his dune. I think it's going to be at least a trilogy, I think. Right, Or several films.

00:30:30:17 - 00:30:35:18

Cullen

Yeah, I think it's I think they've announced the second one and then they're probably will make a third one based on how the second one does.

00:30:35:18 - 00:31:16:01

Clark

But yeah, be interesting to see. But I think, you know, clearly there's like strong, there's really strong decision making being made here by this director. I think, you know, going moving from the themes that the film is, is is kind of exploring. And you touched on that a little bit. We'll talk about it. But, you know, the surreality of the surreal nature of the film, the confidence to tell a symbolic, metaphorical story, but without drawing really any it like you said, you know, even the special effects shots, the spider stuff is shown so matter of factly it's shown such with I mean, I love frankly, I think, frankly, the best part of the film to

00:31:16:01 - 00:31:36:13

Clark

me is that final scene where, yeah, he's speaking to his pregnant wife. She leaves the shower, she stops responding, and he so he goes into the bedroom and she's turned into a giant spider who's now afraid of him, kind of cowers in the corner. And we we cut back to a reaction shot of Jake's character, and he's just like.

00:31:37:06 - 00:31:38:03

Cullen

He sighs.

00:31:38:03 - 00:31:39:04

Clark

And just sighs.

00:31:39:04 - 00:31:41:09

Cullen

And it's like it's this realization that like, okay, this.

00:31:41:09 - 00:31:57:18

Clark

Is the resigned getting it's beginning again. And and so I so respect that. That's such confident filmmaking to me that he did not have to overemphasize or sensationalize any of these choices. I mean that I have a high degree of respect for that.

00:31:58:04 - 00:32:14:03

Cullen

Yeah, definitely. It's it's it's it's, it's refreshing in the sense also that, again, it like it doesn't overexplain itself. That's another doesn't It doesn't Yeah. Very much in line with like I'm sure a lot of people saw that last scene were like wait why is he scared of the fact there's a giant spider.

00:32:14:04 - 00:32:17:12

Clark

Or even just that? How did she turn into a spider? What's going on? Yeah.

00:32:17:21 - 00:32:35:21

Cullen

And there's this there's this quote that I think we I think I said it when we were talking that Silence of the Lambs, which is. Phil knew or not. Philip Sorry. Jonathan Demme Yeah. Said when directing Silence of the Lambs that he would rather an audience be confused for 5 minutes than be told what's going on every.

00:32:35:21 - 00:32:37:03

Clark

Second, every idea.

00:32:37:03 - 00:32:56:18

Cullen

So that there's this, I think Villeneuve really, really, you know, whether or not he's directly, you know, inspired by that or not which I think it's just a natural kind of gift that some directors have that they don't feel the need to overexplain. They don't feel the need to have, you know, Jake Gyllenhaal visit a psychiatrist in this movie.

00:32:56:18 - 00:33:19:15

Cullen

And it's like I just be like, oh, this is your condition that does this. And, you know, and it's like, he doesn't like read a book on what spiders mean in psychology at one point or like so this is very much is using these as bits of metaphor and symbolism and stuff like that. And yeah, sure, it's definitely a movie that is I again, I sort of described it as like up its own ass with its symbolism.

00:33:19:19 - 00:33:21:05

Clark

Well, that's what I want to talk about.

00:33:21:05 - 00:33:45:04

Cullen

But I don't I don't necessarily that doesn't take away from the film for me for some. Normally it would There's a lot of movies that that I think that it would definitely get a little bit eye rolling for me. Yeah but for some reason and again this is where it comes up where I'm like, I don't I can't describe beyond just sort of like the feeling that I get during the movie, that I forgive this movie for it that I actually kind of enjoy.

00:33:45:08 - 00:34:08:15

Clark

I mean, I think it yeah, the film is clearly successful at imparting a tone. I mean, there is there's there is in an atmosphere. So there's no question there that, you know, I think this film very successfully conveys an atmosphere and a tone that exists as a successful container for the symbology, if that makes sense. So so that so that you can hold it and it and it and it's not ridiculous to you.

00:34:09:16 - 00:34:32:13

Clark

You know I think it's true what you said that he doesn't he doesn't explicitly he doesn't have characters, you know, explaining how they're feeling in dialog. He doesn't explicitly explain that, you know. No, there aren't there aren't two of these main characters that this is a you know, this this is symbolic. This is a representation of his psyche, you know, etc., etc..

00:34:32:13 - 00:34:41:16

Clark

Right. He doesn't go in to explain those things. But I but I do get a little bit of a sense that it's it's still sometimes heavy handed to me.

00:34:42:11 - 00:34:44:21

Cullen

You know, without a doubt. Yeah. Yeah. I mean.

00:34:44:21 - 00:35:07:01

Clark

I mean, you know, yes. He doesn't explicitly explain things, but I mean he is very, you know, it's like with, you know, the history lessons, you know, it's like over and over kind of about, you know, you know, the obsession with control and yeah, you know, and we see the cycles and we I mean, I feel like some of it is a little.

00:35:07:01 - 00:35:08:21

Cullen

Hate knows it knows what its themes.

00:35:08:21 - 00:35:13:13

Clark

Are. It well, definitely knows, you know and it's and it focuses on them for sure.

00:35:13:13 - 00:35:13:18

Cullen

Yeah.

00:35:14:05 - 00:35:25:05

Clark

I mean there's a very conscious decision to every I mean I feel like every scene of this film is about its themes. So that's true. Yeah. I mean, that's.

00:35:25:06 - 00:35:25:15

Cullen

You know, without a.

00:35:25:15 - 00:35:51:06

Clark

Doubt. And obviously the imparting these themes or exploring these themes, it was, I think, the highest priority for this film. So I think I think that's fair to say. It's, you know, that, that everything else is subservient to and supports that exploration of these themes which, you know, can be interpreted to be different things by people. You know, in my mind, you know, when I saw it.

00:35:51:08 - 00:36:04:06

Clark

Well, I be curious before I say that, like, what do you feel like where some of the main like when watched it I'm curious, especially when you were ten I mean not ten, but when you were in 10th grade. Like what? What themes kind of jumped out to you? Do you remember? I mean.

00:36:04:06 - 00:36:04:16

Cullen

Just this.

00:36:04:16 - 00:36:06:10

Clark

Idea of like going about or.

00:36:06:20 - 00:36:34:16

Cullen

Yeah, I think my my ideas were and again, this is not completely exact because I'm not they don't remember exactly. Yes, I remember. That's just definitely the feelings of like control, monotony, sameness in life and not but it's not. I think what interested me then too, is that there's so many movies about monotony and sameness and where someone like like Fight Club, for example, or it's like, Oh, I want to break out of this monotony, but that's not what this is.

00:36:34:16 - 00:37:13:08

Cullen

It's more about like the monotony driving somebody insane and and getting to the point of like where it, you know, it's, it's kind of like a split personality thing. And you've got this but that, that there's this like, there's also this weird deniability in it that it's it's one of those things where you along with other characters in the film, you don't know if he's genuinely ill, if he genuinely has this split personality or if it's something that's like because because at the end of it, especially in the final moments of the film, when he sees the spider, you get the sense by his facial expression that he's like, No, no, no, I invent this

00:37:13:08 - 00:37:24:00

Cullen

other person in my head, and I know, but I'm never going to tell anybody that I meant them, that it's like that. It's like I can't because that's what keeps me sane. And then when he sees the spider, he's like, All right, well, back to square one kind of thing.

00:37:24:02 - 00:37:33:18

Clark

Interest and interest is, do you feel like this is kind of like the themes that you feel that jump out to you today as well or what you're reading?

00:37:33:19 - 00:37:45:01

Cullen

Yeah, No. Yeah, a lot of similar stuff. Yeah, definitely more. I mean, I think I understand the dynamics of like the actual relationships more because yeah, I've had more experience in that kind of avenue of life where.

00:37:45:01 - 00:37:45:09

Clark

Yeah.

00:37:45:13 - 00:37:54:21

Cullen

You know, if like having conversation, like difficult conversations about, you know, paranoia in relationships, like jealousy, things like that.

00:37:54:21 - 00:37:55:07

Clark

Yeah.

00:37:56:00 - 00:38:15:10

Cullen

And so I think on that level I understand those things more than obviously I did when I was in grade ten. Sure. But to the level of, you know, a broad, I would say like thematic kind of reaction to the movie, I'd say that I had have had pretty similar reactions every single time I've watched it. I've only seen it.

00:38:15:10 - 00:38:33:06

Cullen

Yeah, I think for four or five I would lean towards four. I think I've seen it four times over the course of, you know, nearly ten years. Yeah. So I haven't it's not a movie that like I sit down and watch every year and that I like I'm a huge fan of. It's not necessarily one that's like in my, you know, favorite movies of all time.

00:38:33:23 - 00:38:55:22

Cullen

But again, like you said, I find this movie really intriguing. I think it's a really, you know, like a I my response coming out of this movie is something that's like, I appreciate this movie a lot and I appreciate the the direction and just for its uniqueness, if nothing else, that it's just it's really refreshing to see something like this.

00:38:55:22 - 00:39:16:21

Cullen

And again, that's kind of why I described it as like something that you would it would just be relegated to like Amazon Prime that it wouldn't, you know, have a big release. It wouldn't be in theaters. It would just be movies like this, you know, just aren't really made anymore. And it's or at least aren't given the same spotlight that even it would have been done.

00:39:17:01 - 00:39:17:10

Clark

Yeah.

00:39:17:10 - 00:39:18:03

Cullen

When it came out.

00:39:18:10 - 00:39:38:11

Clark

Well, I think, you know, some of the themes that jump out at me and this is one area that I enjoy I kind of both enjoy, but then I'm kind of about this, you know, I think, you know, one of the themes that stands out to me are, you know, the the film seems to kind of center around infidelity or relationships.

00:39:38:21 - 00:40:00:20

Clark

And I certainly, you know, I sometimes get so burned out on infidelity being such a like a crutch for a story for films that it just like I mean, I know that it you know, it's an important or significant part of what a lot of people in life have to deal with in real life. And it's sometimes.

00:40:00:22 - 00:40:01:15

Cullen

Dramatic.

00:40:01:17 - 00:40:26:18

Clark

But it's so easily dramatized. And I feel like sometimes it's handled in such the same way over and over and over that it's a trope, basically. It's like the male infidelity thing is a trope in film that sometimes is just kind of annoying and boring. So I will say that, you know, because my kind of interpretation is that I think that infidelity is key.

00:40:26:18 - 00:40:45:03

Clark

And I think, you know, that the way the film is book, you know, begins and opens with this erotic scene or this, you know, where they're at, this sex club. I mean, they're literally at the sex club. I think that it's kind of a symbolic like symbolic of kind of this lustful thinking that's going on in the character's mind.

00:40:45:03 - 00:41:00:01

Clark

I don't think he's I don't think it's necessarily literal. But, you know, there are two women. One is his wife, one is a girlfriend. And, you know, one is always kind of bathed in white. One is always presented in dark. So they're kind of this yin yang.

00:41:00:18 - 00:41:03:18

Cullen

And they but they look sort of similar, sort of.

00:41:03:18 - 00:41:33:07

Clark

But we can easily tell them apart. One is softer, one is kind of more, you know, angular. They're both. But of course, they're both beautiful. And, you know, I think this film is about that cycle of infidelity for him. And maybe that's even too literal. Maybe it's about a cycle of, you know, or the struggle of, you know, of managing love and lust and that there's temptation in the world, you know, troll.

00:41:33:07 - 00:41:34:05

Cullen

Again, as we've talked about.

00:41:34:05 - 00:41:34:14

Clark

Like and.

00:41:34:17 - 00:41:35:17

Cullen

This idea of and.

00:41:35:21 - 00:41:42:04

Clark

Right and and so at least I'm like, well thank God at least that they explored this in a different way. But I mean, you know.

00:41:42:04 - 00:41:50:01

Cullen

She was that like every female character in the movie is is like in a way you know, in a very literal sense, like kind of domineering that like, well.

00:41:50:01 - 00:41:52:16

Clark

It's all over. The symbology of it is everywhere. Yeah.

00:41:52:16 - 00:41:56:00

Cullen

It's like is their mother his mother kind of talks to him like he's.

00:41:56:00 - 00:41:56:14

Clark

All the time.

00:41:56:14 - 00:42:07:07

Cullen

Like, the answer is, is both of his you know, both the girls that he's seeing are very much not necessarily in control of him, but you can tell where. Well, knowing that he has.

00:42:07:09 - 00:42:14:22

Clark

It's the spider. It's the spider analogy. It's that it's the web. It's the fear of control. And it's the fear of commitment.

00:42:14:22 - 00:42:16:06

Cullen

And getting caught up in feeling.

00:42:16:06 - 00:42:40:05

Clark

Of getting caught up in something. And so and that's what happens when you have a real, genuine, authentic relationship with someone that's deep. You do get caught up with each other. You get entangled with someone tremendously on every level when you're actually in a real adult relationship. And that's scary for a lot of people. And for a lot of people, they have a really difficult time, I think, managing that.

00:42:40:13 - 00:43:08:12

Clark

So I get that. That's interesting to explore that fear that that exist when you make yourself vulnerable and you commit yourself to someone. That's very interesting. But, you know, this is where some of the stuff like the spider analogy, I mean, it seems sometimes a little heavy handed that, yes, women are spiders and that they catch their web and men get stuck in it and that, you know, that you have a picture of the poster of the 50 foot woman in the video shop.

00:43:08:12 - 00:43:25:04

Clark

And then we cut to that what we don't directly cut to. But then later we see the the giant spider in the landscape of Toronto. You know, we see the spider web fracture of the windshield. You know, when there's the car accident.

00:43:25:15 - 00:43:31:18

Cullen

Even though at the beginning the like know the beginning of the cycle of him in the sex club and she steps on the tarantula.

00:43:31:18 - 00:43:43:04

Clark

And well, there's that, too. But there's a spider web, actually, the glass shatters in a spider web and like pattern when you have the car accident, when they're fighting and they have the car accident.

00:43:43:04 - 00:43:46:09

Cullen

So it's like cyclical, though. Like it's very clear that this is something.

00:43:46:09 - 00:43:46:19

Clark

That it's a.

00:43:46:19 - 00:43:50:20

Cullen

Size you know, even his wife literally asks him at one point, are you seeing her.

00:43:50:20 - 00:44:09:19

Clark

Again? Everything is yet every so in his history lessons. And, you know so yes, we get a sense of the cycle that that it's you know, and of course, the ending of it is that, you know, okay, he's finally killed off this alter ego or this or this temptation or however you want to kind of describe it or interpret it.

00:44:10:01 - 00:44:26:01

Clark

And, well, what's like literally the next thing that happens it's like the next morning, he's like, Oh, I've got this key. Oh, you know, Hey, wife, are you busy tonight? I've got to go somewhere. Well, yeah. So temptation wins again. And that's of course.

00:44:26:05 - 00:44:41:05

Cullen

I mean again. And then, like, it's not, it's not. It doesn't hide like, you know, even his mother says, you know, I can give up on that, that, that amateur acting career that you're trying it. So it's like, you know, it doesn't hide the fact that these two people are one and the same.

00:44:41:05 - 00:44:43:09

Clark

No, there's a lot of it. It's I think it's it's.

00:44:43:09 - 00:44:57:04

Cullen

Very much him very much grappling with two sides of his. Look, I don't I don't think it's a literal. No, you know, the movie's not supposed to literally mean that this guy has a split personality to do so where he, like, makes memories in a in a mental health sense.

00:44:57:07 - 00:44:58:17

Clark

No, it's rather the reality is.

00:44:58:17 - 00:45:04:14

Cullen

This all here and it's in it's surreal. Like it's it's a it's a surrealist movie. So it's using.

00:45:05:06 - 00:45:12:02

Clark

Well, interesting metaphor. I mean, it's it's not surrealist mostly aside from the spider stuff. It's not visually surreal. So.

00:45:12:02 - 00:45:14:06

Cullen

No, no, but very much the way that the story's told.

00:45:14:06 - 00:45:33:18

Clark

Yeah. But I think that's I think that's where if, if someone gets a little confused, I think that's likely why I think it's because Yeah you have you have this is a visual like this this the story is a representation of someone's psyche, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it's, and it's about the duality that exist in all of us or, you know, more than two.

00:45:33:18 - 00:45:52:03

Clark

I mean, there are many facets of all of our personalities, and we there's a lot of cognitive dissonance We want to try. We want to do one thing, but we are tempted to do another thing. And sometimes we succeed in doing what we what we feel like our higher, better self would do. And sometimes we fail when we do, you know, a more base thing.

00:45:52:03 - 00:46:07:01

Clark

If that. I mean, we get complicated into like ethics and everything, you know? So it's hard sometimes to even create a hierarchy of actions. But my point is just that all of us experience cognitive dissonance and we're pulled in different directions. I mean, do you try.

00:46:07:03 - 00:46:29:00

Cullen

To relate it to I mean, I again, go back to kind of the even like the the student film type of idea is that when I was, you know, I made a movie probably five years ago Now that isn't very good, but I remember that the whole point of it was that like this guy wakes up in the sun is like, doesn't rise and the world is empty.

00:46:29:00 - 00:46:48:05

Cullen

And it was like a metaphor for him losing his girlfriend. And there's this like piece of paper on his desk that he like community like that just it appeared like the words just appear on the paper and like, tell him things. And, you know, and it was very much such a heavy handed metaphor. And then, like, when he forgives himself, the sun rises again and it's, you know, not very good.

00:46:48:17 - 00:47:06:06

Cullen

But, but again, very much that student film thing and, and it's kind of like it gets exactly like that, like in that movie. Is the sun literally not rising or is it sort of vague? Is it is it more just again, it's a more of a metaphor. It's like the those elements are supposed to be more surreal to represent something.

00:47:06:15 - 00:47:08:13

Clark

And I'm happy to see that and I'm happy to see that.

00:47:08:13 - 00:47:22:01

Cullen

So that's that's the thing is that this movie does that far better than I did. Yeah, but it's still it's the same principle. It's the principle of like that you're taking something. This movie is not about someone literally struggling with the mental health issue. That is no personality disorder.

00:47:22:02 - 00:47:26:21

Clark

And I don't think it to be hard pressed to see that somebody would even interpret it that way. I Yeah.

00:47:26:21 - 00:47:27:18

Cullen

Yeah, exactly.

00:47:27:18 - 00:47:54:13

Clark

I don't take it. But I do think though that this film so I think what this film does is completely I mean it's common in an art to do this. This is, you know I mean there's this movie does nothing spectacular or weird or, you know, unique even in its representation of things in that manner. But I do think that it is becoming more unique in the landscape of current films.

00:47:54:13 - 00:48:22:14

Clark

That is, it's rare that films are kind of metaphors and are symbolic and represent kind of, you know, these subconscious kind of things that go on. And I think films are often quite literal, generally, and they're very plot totally and they're very much about, well, just what happens ABCD BFG like what tangibly happens in the world, whether it's ridiculously fictional characters like Captain America and Spider-Man and Hulk.

00:48:22:14 - 00:48:39:00

Clark

I mean, it's still these films are just about like what is literally happening in their world. So I like to see that. So though I didn't enjoy watching this film, sometimes I thought that symbology was a little heavy handed. I'm still really excited to see it. So yeah, and perhaps.

00:48:39:00 - 00:48:44:08

Cullen

To kind of finish off, we can discuss that idea of like this, this kind of Canadian curse thing that I.

00:48:44:09 - 00:49:06:16

Clark

Well, yeah, because I want to talk about performances. I mean, I think like, you know, we were talking about performances a little bit and we were kind of, you know, I was kind of, you know, in my mind, like when I was interpreting it before, you had kind of described this Canadian thing, I was like, well, you know, the film, you know, because I was thinking, you know, trying to think of how could I define or what would I say about these these performances?

00:49:06:16 - 00:49:24:05

Clark

And I kind of felt like, well, you know, there's not a whole lot for these actors to do. I mean, the film feels a little kind of flat, a little detached. I was trying to find some words to describe it. You know, I felt like the that the the characters don't feel like kind of like fully human, you know.

00:49:24:22 - 00:49:36:00

Clark

So it's like it's hard for me to really say, wow, any of these performances stood out to me. But you'd mention something that might explain some of this, and that is this cultural.

00:49:36:07 - 00:50:08:08

Cullen

There's this. Yeah, there's so there's this strange and again, perhaps this is something that I'm more attuned to just because, you know, growing up here and seeing more than, you know, cinema from this country. But there's this lack of show softness or lack of being in your face or kind of lack of grandeur in a lot of cases that that's super subdued and super, you know, that like it feels very flat and very sterile and very you know, and this goes back to even, you know, I'm a huge fan of David Cronenberg.

00:50:08:19 - 00:50:15:02

Cullen

Yeah. But like, you watch it like Videodrome and it's like there's still this this like there's this transactional relationship.

00:50:15:02 - 00:50:16:04

Clark

That every like every.

00:50:16:04 - 00:50:42:00

Cullen

Relationship is almost like, yeah, it's like you're having every conversation feels transactional. Yeah. And so there's this lack of empathizing with characters often where you don't really feel like, well, I know this person's like wants and desires or I know what they're needing in this situation. I even the stories themselves are so often, you know, quite different from things that like it's not really coming of age.

00:50:42:00 - 00:51:03:13

Cullen

Like it's not or it's not something about like someone kind of trying to achieve a goal, but more so an exploration of like, you know, and I'll use Cronenberg again, we all use Videodrome where it's like, Videodrome is not a story about a man that's like trying succeed in like, you know, in a like a news networking and things like that.

00:51:03:15 - 00:51:06:00

Cullen

A story about a guy that's like dealing with obsession.

00:51:06:00 - 00:51:27:00

Clark

And yeah, it's not aspirational, it's not an aspirational story, which we get a lot of, you know, and it's not a goal driven story, which you also get a lot of. Right. It's like and if you read almost any screenwriting book that was written in the past 20 years, it's like your character must be likable and they must have a goal that they must work to achieve and they must so much.

00:51:27:00 - 00:52:11:21

Cullen

Of it's so much of Canadian cinema. It's like I'd say the majority of it. And I say curse, not necessarily in a totally negative sense, like there is there's a lot of really, really fantastic movies made here, like, you know, that are that are fully made here, not just Hollywood movies shooting here. Yeah, but at the same time, there's also like this really interesting kind of feel to a lot of like Canadian cinema, which is just this like flat sort of less emotional, less, you know, empathetic more, much more, I would say exploratory, than anything else that that there's so often exploring controversial issues or, you know, taboo subjects, things like that that are, I

00:52:11:21 - 00:52:21:06

Cullen

think, make things really interesting. But also one of those things that is to me, a super, super, you know, almost like a hallmark of Canadian cinema That's so interesting.

00:52:21:06 - 00:52:42:02

Clark

I hadn't really thought of that too much. I'd be curious, you know, and not that we can answer this question here or, you know, but it would be interesting to kind of think about and look at why that might be. You know, that's very curious. I think, you know, maybe some some immediate kind of you know, this is just me completely kind of speaking off the cuff and off the top of my head.

00:52:42:02 - 00:53:07:22

Clark

But I wonder if some of that difference is kind of, you know, here in the United States, actually. I mean, I can speak to the United States. I lived here my entire life. You know, our culture here is a very aspirational be. We have a very kind of strong kind of undercurrent of a specific kind of morality, I think that sometimes precludes us from being able to easily explore taboo subjects.

00:53:08:11 - 00:53:29:06

Clark

I mean, there's a lot of taboo subjects in the United States, and some of them are quite interesting. So, you know, this film in particular explores to some extent, you know, sexuality, relationships, monogamy, fidelity. And of course, in the United States, you can explore violence all day long, right? You can have a film that explores violence and violence as such.

00:53:29:07 - 00:53:43:01

Clark

I mean, that's it's just everywhere in American cinema. But if you get into some of these other questions that you could run into some taboo stuff real quickly. Right. So that's interesting. I mean, maybe there's some difference there. Well, I mean.

00:53:43:01 - 00:54:09:18

Cullen

Also we've got Ed, like heavy, especially obviously Villeneuve being from trauma. Yeah. But that you've got these like a huge amount of French influence on our cinema that a lot of the big filmmakers here are from French Canada. So that obviously is going to be detached, more so from the American style of cinema, which there is, you know, huge influence on here as well because we're so close, you know, culturally and geographically.

00:54:09:23 - 00:54:31:19

Cullen

Right. But that Quebec really tends to be a lot more European in its style, and that bleeds out through the rest of Canada. So there's almost like this like kind of homogenous section of Canada that's, super European, that that affects so much of what, you know, there's so much public funding for film here. There's a lot of just wonders like that.

00:54:31:19 - 00:55:08:04

Cullen

But you go in and you look at that and you look a lot of the movies that that are funded publicly here. And yeah, there's a ton of, I would say a much more European slant at the way that films are made and shot and stories are presented here than American, which is very, very interesting. And perhaps it's also it might also just be because we have American cinema and that you know, a lot of Canadians to, you know, filmmakers to kind of differentiate themselves from that decide to go in the route that is a lot more of a like a quebecor style versus, you know, you know, on a more American style of film

00:55:08:04 - 00:55:23:20

Cullen

and storytelling. Right. And it's not to say that one is better than the other by any means, but but that more so. I appreciate in a sense, a lot more than I did when I was a kid, where, of course, you just want, you know, Indiana Jones or Top Gun or something like that as a kid, because you're like, why is all Canadians?

00:55:24:02 - 00:55:25:19

Clark

So there's a place for both. There is.

00:55:26:01 - 00:55:26:06

Cullen

There is.

00:55:27:00 - 00:55:27:08

Clark

There's a.

00:55:27:08 - 00:55:50:08

Cullen

Place. And I still love Indiana Jones like I mean, yeah, most of my favorite movies are American, but there's certainly a growing appreciation for me, especially as I got older in Canadian cinema and looking at that sort of thing and seeing kind of again, those through lines and and understanding kind of why certain things or certain ways, I mean, we have harsh winters.

00:55:50:08 - 00:55:56:11

Cullen

Maybe it's just that maybe it's literally just that our winters are so well that and it makes us all depressed and makes all our movies flat.

00:55:56:12 - 00:55:56:21

Clark

I mean, there's.

00:55:56:21 - 00:55:57:05

Cullen

Notional.

00:55:57:11 - 00:56:30:05

Clark

There's a lot of demographic difficult differences, religious religious differences, historical differences, definitely. Yeah. So there's and that's that's always interesting to explore. And it's that's it's fun to see the differences in art that come from different cultures and similarities. So, yeah, it's just very intriguing. I had never really thought about that. You know, I think I kind of take for granted sometimes that although you are geographically close, there are still some significant cultural differences, and that's obviously going to manifest in the films that come from Canada versus the United States.

00:56:30:05 - 00:56:40:13

Clark

In a lot of instances. Not that Canadians can't make great like actions, you know, whatever you might categorize American cinema as, of course, and vice versa. It's not that at all. But it's just an.

00:56:40:13 - 00:56:42:07

Cullen

Interesting James Cameron is is.

00:56:42:07 - 00:56:42:20

Clark

Yeah.

00:56:43:01 - 00:56:47:01

Cullen

Oh my gosh. But he clearly kind of very much jumped into the American film.

00:56:47:02 - 00:56:50:13

Clark

He couldn't be more American, I feel like, you know. Yeah, I.

00:56:50:16 - 00:57:11:19

Cullen

Like his movies. Yeah, his movies are well, his movies are totally American, too. Yeah. You know that, that, you know, Avatar and Titanic and all those are American produced movies. So. Yeah, but yeah, it's just kind of an interesting, um, that, that in terms of Canadian cinema, not just being made by Canadians but like the actual genre of, of cinema, there's a very specific, Yeah, very specific feel to it.

00:57:11:19 - 00:57:37:00

Cullen

And this certainly, you know, falls into that I think before, if you're not from Canada, if you want to kind of perhaps get a taste of what it's like, this is, I would say, a good place to Cronenberg's movies, maybe lesser so than The Fly, because that was a kind of a co-produced American film. Yeah, but I'd say like Videodrome and a lot of those movies that that explore, again, these taboo subjects are those are kind of good places to start if you want to jump into it.

00:57:37:07 - 00:57:59:05

Clark

Yeah. Yeah. Excellent, man. Well, fantastic. Well, I, I appreciate you bringing Enemy into our podcast to discuss. It's, it, it's enjoyable and I think it's especially interesting. I mean, a lot of the films that we've that we've done in the past, I think it was like I enjoyed them and I, you know, I enjoyed them on a kind of a superficial level and I respected them.

00:57:59:05 - 00:58:21:11

Clark

And this was an interesting film for me where it's I really didn't enjoy it on a personal kind of audience level, but there's a ton here to respect and there's a lot here to kind of stimulate thinking about filmmaking and and that's awesome. That's a blast. So awesome. Well, I guess there'll be a wrap for episode 47. Yeah.

00:58:21:16 - 00:58:32:15

Clark

Yeah. As always. Cohen, it's been a pleasure. And everybody out there who's listening, we appreciate you. We hope you enjoyed it and we'll see you next time. And episode 48 Until then, take care, everybody.

00:58:32:16 - 00:58:41:06

Cullen

Yeah. Bye bye.

Episode - 048 - Three O'Clock High

Clark

Hello, everybody, and welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. As always, I'm Clark Coffey, and with me is Mr. Cullen McFater. What's up?

00:00:21:17 - 00:00:26:11

Cullen

Hello. Hello. Nice to be back. It's been a little bit of a while since we last spoke.

00:00:26:14 - 00:00:32:10

Clark

It has. I mean, you know, potentially unbeknownst to the the listeners at home, I think, you know, those will.

00:00:32:10 - 00:00:34:05

Cullen

Come out consecutively. But yeah.

00:00:34:09 - 00:00:51:13

Clark

Like, hopefully we're trying to be you know, we're trying to be consistent with the releases, although we're not nailing that perfectly. But sometimes on the recording side, you know, we might have a little bit more or a little bit less time. This is this is we're both feeling maybe a little bit rusty. Hopefully that won't be obvious, but it has been why?

00:00:51:13 - 00:00:53:00

Cullen

First of the year, I think the first.

00:00:53:00 - 00:01:19:12

Clark

Yeah, the first. Yeah, it's the first of the year. And I've been off in Seattle shooting or working on a feature film. And Colin, you've been in post on doors so we've both been busy but we're excited to be back and today we're going to discuss my pick. 1980 Sevens 3:00 High, a film that I've loved ever since childhood.

00:01:19:12 - 00:01:47:21

Clark

I probably saw this film, you know, maybe 89, 90 something around there when it came out on cable TV. Cullen is the first time that you've ever seen the film, so I'm always excited when we have a setup like this because it's it's I'm always interested to get, you know, a modern person like your, you know, it's like a contemporary young person's perspective on a film that I grew up really loving and being inspired by when I was a kid.

00:01:47:21 - 00:02:08:12

Clark

So let's start right there. And there's a lot to talk about in this film. I just I want, you know, before I just want to say one quick thing as I almost feel like I want to like this is I've made up a genre for this film and films like this for me, in my own mind. And the genre is films that punch way above their weight.

00:02:08:16 - 00:02:14:22

Clark

Oh, I don't know what it is, but I love films that have no like no right? Being good.

00:02:14:22 - 00:02:15:23

Cullen

Yeah. They've got no business.

00:02:16:04 - 00:02:27:05

Clark

Like no business being good, but they are. And I feel like this film completely falls into that category. But let's, let's hear about your experience watching this film.

00:02:27:11 - 00:02:43:04

Cullen

Oh, I think I mean, first of all, just to kind of comment on your punching above the weight and stuff, that it's a very, I would say, like inspiring film in a way that this is the debut film of a guy who was 24 when he married. He was younger than the leads. Yeah.

00:02:43:04 - 00:02:47:12

Clark

And almost all that the main leads are almost all unknowns. Yeah. Yeah.

00:02:47:21 - 00:03:07:14

Cullen

And it's and it's not by any means. Again, we'll get into this more when we talk about kind of the direction of it. But it's not like flashy. It's not, you know, it's just really, really well-crafted and tightly made and just very smooth in a way. And I know that it's not it didn't, you know, do a huge numbers at the box office.

00:03:07:14 - 00:03:28:11

Cullen

It's it's more of a cult classic. I, I actually hadn't really heard of this until you had mentioned it to me a few years ago. Yeah. And now, of course, we're doing it in an episode. But, you know, I think what's what's great about it is it doesn't you know, it's a very simple, simple story. It's a really simply directed, simply, you know, just all around simple film.

00:03:28:13 - 00:04:02:14

Cullen

Yeah. But it proves that movies like that, that that, that you don't have to write some magnum opus complex thing to kind of have an impact. And it's still very impactful. It's still, you know, everything and it works really well. The actors all work off of each other really well. The, the, the tone of it. There's never any tonal inconsistencies, which can be something that's, you know, surprisingly difficult to nail is, yeah, tone and film, making sure that that, you know, even though this movie does have some relatively not serious moments in terms of like you're scared or your your you're sad or anything like that.

00:04:02:14 - 00:04:16:11

Cullen

But but there's definitely these these you know, there are more kind of adult moments. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's there's these bits in there that but it never feels out of place. It's never like you're never sitting there going like, okay, this is now the movie has shifted tones and.

00:04:16:14 - 00:04:17:16

Clark

Everything feels earned.

00:04:17:17 - 00:04:19:15

Cullen

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so how.

00:04:19:15 - 00:04:34:00

Clark

Did you feel like? I'm just curious, like to even get a little more personal before you start kind of dissecting the film and talking about, you know, different people who worked on it and different aspects of it. I mean, just, just as like an audience, just as an audience member. Like what was your experience watching?

00:04:34:00 - 00:04:41:05

Cullen

Yeah, I mean, I, I was definitely upfront. I knew nothing about it. I hadn't seen a trailer from it, had didn't know what it was about.

00:04:41:05 - 00:04:42:10

Clark

No expectations. Yeah.

00:04:43:19 - 00:04:56:08

Cullen

It's actually very not impossible, but it's hard to find a lot about the movie because it is such a cult kind of classic. And I didn't blow up any, you know, huge, you know, media stuff or whatever.

00:04:56:10 - 00:05:01:04

Clark

I think it was theatrically released for like ten days. Yeah. And it was sold out. Yep.

00:05:01:04 - 00:05:18:19

Cullen

And so I knew nothing. And when I started watching it, it's like the first 10 minutes are very John Hughes kind of Ferris Bueller, like guys getting ready in the morning. He's late for school. Yeah, Sister has to come with him. His younger sister? Yeah. To step his friend, who, like, is very clearly kind of crushing on him.

00:05:18:19 - 00:05:36:19

Cullen

This girl that he picks up from her house and they're driving to school together. And there's this funny bit where they, you know, he almost crashes the car and it's kind of sitting there and it's all well done. But I was sitting there going like, all right, did Clarke just put me in front of a you know, like a regular teen drama John School knockoff?

00:05:36:19 - 00:05:54:09

Cullen

Yeah. And so I was kind of like, what's like, what's the catch here? And I knew that you wouldn't just choose some random, like, teen drama flick. So I was like, What's the catch here? And then as soon as you get it, you just go, Oh, okay, I see. And as soon as the main conflict of the plot starts, which doesn't take long, it's about like it's introduced.

00:05:54:09 - 00:06:11:10

Cullen

As soon as they get to school this, they start planting the seeds of it, and then you also think like, you know, a lot of times in a movie like this, what I was expecting it was that they they get to the school and you're talking about this guy who's like, oh, you know, he broke some guys. What a great introduction shot.

00:06:11:16 - 00:06:22:12

Cullen

He Yeah, exactly. And you're and my thought my prediction when I was sitting there watching it was like, oh, it's going to turn out. The guy gets there and he's completely not that. And then these two are going to become friends and they're going to realize that.

00:06:22:14 - 00:06:24:08

Clark

So that's what you thought was going to happen?

00:06:24:08 - 00:06:34:05

Cullen

Yeah, I thought it was gonna be about like them kind of getting to, like, kind of like a breakfast club type. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Where it's like, Oh, you expect him to be a big bully, But then they actually is it, they, they connect on a like a really.

00:06:34:06 - 00:06:39:22

Clark

He's got a heart. Yeah. Like, like my bodyguard. Yeah. Yeah. In 1980 or like you said.

00:06:39:23 - 00:06:41:02

Cullen

I was expecting bad.

00:06:41:06 - 00:06:41:14

Clark

Yeah.

00:06:41:15 - 00:06:59:01

Cullen

Yeah. And then. And then. No, and then it just goes with it. It's like, oh he actually did stab somebody and then went to juvie and all this stuff and, and it plays up again, this idea of like, I think I had messaged you while I was watching it. Yeah, I don't use my phone during movies, but I just had to kind of message you to let you know that I was.

00:06:59:01 - 00:07:19:14

Cullen

I was enjoying it. Yeah. And I basically just like, it's like bringing me right back to high school, like, it felt, you know, it was. Which is rare because there's a lot there's so much stuff that is made about high school and shot in high school. And, you know, whether it's TV or movies that are all in like very rarely do you have like a smile on your face because you're kind of sitting there going like, yep, that's that's exactly.

00:07:19:14 - 00:07:20:14

Clark

Well, especially this is.

00:07:20:22 - 00:07:23:02

Cullen

Kind of the feeling that you have when you're when you're this.

00:07:23:02 - 00:07:43:12

Clark

Is, what, 35 years old almost. Yeah. And, and you're in Canada. And I know that, you know, culturally there are a lot of similarities between Canada and America. But I do feel like we can talk about this a little more later, that, you know, the American high school experience is fairly unique in the world. Mm hmm. And I don't I didn't grow up in Canada.

00:07:43:12 - 00:08:07:09

Clark

I didn't go to high school in Canada, so I can't speak to how different it might be. But I do know just from having talked to, you know, people throughout my life who've grown up in other countries that that and this is part of why a film like this doesn't translate globally. Yeah. Because there is a pretty unique kind of experience with high school and our public school system in the United States.

00:08:07:09 - 00:08:10:11

Clark

So so it's interesting to me that you related to this.

00:08:10:22 - 00:08:33:22

Cullen

Yeah. I mean, it's a lot there's there's definitely like a lot of differences between the cultural elements of like high school in the U.S. and Canada. But then there's I think the major things the major things are all very similar. Yeah. You know, maybe like we don't have like the pep rallies and things like that. And, you know, I think there's less of like a school spirit kind of idea.

00:08:33:22 - 00:08:57:00

Cullen

But there still is, you know, I think that I think an American student going to a high school in Canada or vice versa, wouldn't feel like a fish out of water. Right. You know, I think that there's I think that the similarities across the board are much greater in number than I think it's. Yeah, I would assume. And a lot of that is just because of how influenced of course Canada is from the U.S. but yet culturally, media, whatever.

00:08:57:00 - 00:09:07:11

Cullen

But I also think that, you know, there is sort of this conglomerate of like North America, maybe lesser to lesser extent in Mexico, but like Canada, the U.S. just have such a similar culture.

00:09:07:11 - 00:09:12:05

Clark

With the with me with all these years that have passed. I mean, that makes my heart smile, I have to say.

00:09:12:05 - 00:09:33:02

Cullen

Yeah. No, I mean, I was sitting there and I was like, you know, everything just will both from the idea that like a very broad idea that everything in high school is the most important thing in the world. Yeah, that day. But also just that sense of just like in senior year, you are, you know, you have so much freedom to do what you want and you know, all the teachers and you can kind of get away with just walking around the hallways.

00:09:33:02 - 00:09:48:05

Clark

And we've all known all these characters, right? Yeah. I mean, I actually all of us, you know, all of us either have been affected by like directly or indirectly a bully. I mean, everybody has at least one bully experience, right? We you at least knew that you're a bully or.

00:09:48:05 - 00:09:49:04

Cullen

You or you were the most.

00:09:49:04 - 00:10:12:17

Clark

Bullied or you were the bully or or you were bullied at some point and you're like middle school, high school career. I think most people can relate to that. I think like they did a great job with each of these characters, even those who weren't on the screen for a very long time. I mean, I love that they have like these two these two guys who are like film fanatics and they're running around trying.

00:10:12:17 - 00:10:13:20

Cullen

To get to Clay.

00:10:13:21 - 00:10:35:13

Clark

Yeah, and they're trying to turn that, ah, lead character, Jerry's tragedy into a film that they're shooting like right in the school. And you've got, you know, the kid in the like in the Boy Scouts beret, like taken bets and, you know, you've got I mean, you've got the goth girl which, you know, I don't know what that's turned into now for kids of this era, but me just.

00:10:35:13 - 00:10:36:18

Cullen

Oh there's always the goth gets.

00:10:37:00 - 00:10:38:03

Clark

Yeah, it's but it's but.

00:10:38:03 - 00:10:54:20

Cullen

I've actually a question that's not necessarily super related to the movie, but to kind of the conversation. Yeah. The only thing that I would say is majorly out of the ordinary to me is having like a, like at that sort of convenience store type thing, like a high school story school. Did you have that?

00:10:55:00 - 00:11:03:13

Clark

So I did not. So we did not have a school store in my high school. I don't think we might have the.

00:11:03:13 - 00:11:07:11

Cullen

Closest we had to. That was like a cafeteria. Yeah, I was going to go in and buy food and.

00:11:07:11 - 00:11:19:05

Clark

Stuff, but, you know, now that I think about it, gosh, I almost do feel like. So I don't think we had a big like a big store. But I do feel like there was some sort of kind of commissary, some sort of like ours.

00:11:19:05 - 00:11:31:01

Cullen

I mean, if we had one that was built into the library. Yeah, I wanted to go buy papers, supplies. I could go to the library and every student had like a credit amount. Yeah, there was some, but there was no, there was no, like, physical.

00:11:31:01 - 00:11:31:14

Clark

Big store.

00:11:31:14 - 00:11:35:13

Cullen

Room that you went into that had shelves and. Right. You know, university. Yes.

00:11:35:13 - 00:11:44:08

Clark

But Yeah. But I don't think we had Yeah. It's not like there was a place you could go and buy, you know, highly like the mascot T-shirts and you know.

00:11:44:13 - 00:11:46:22

Cullen

Yeah, those were all done. Just paper orders and stuff like that.

00:11:47:03 - 00:11:57:18

Clark

And I don't know if that was manufactured for this film or if, you know, maybe on the this, this was a real high school shot in a real high school in Utah. So I don't know if they if that that.

00:11:57:18 - 00:11:58:19

Cullen

Maybe that just is there.

00:11:59:02 - 00:12:01:04

Clark

Or maybe that you know whatever who knows.

00:12:01:09 - 00:12:15:10

Cullen

I will say that one connection to yeah to this movie the school's mascots are the tigers and they're playing the Panthers and there's all these signs all over the place. It's like chicken. The Panthers killed the Panthers and stuff. Yeah, my high school's like team was the Panthers.

00:12:15:10 - 00:12:39:23

Clark

So nice. Yeah, mine. Mine were the Vikings. So no, no correlation whatsoever. But what I mean, so that's awesome to me And I think it speaks to a lot of great qualities of the film that even all these years later, you know, a generation later, even a little bit of cultural difference that the film translated for you, that it spoke to your high school experience kind of authentically.

00:12:39:23 - 00:12:45:02

Clark

I think that's awesome. And it sounds like I don't to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you enjoyed the film.

00:12:45:05 - 00:12:53:21

Cullen

Oh, I enjoy it a lot more than I. Not that I expected not to like it, but yeah, I had no expectations. I did. Yeah. I didn't know what to expect at all. So that that.

00:12:53:21 - 00:12:54:12

Clark

Cracks me up.

00:12:54:12 - 00:12:55:12

Cullen

I was yeah.

00:12:55:18 - 00:13:14:19

Clark

I love the fact that you kind of, you know, because I've seen the film, of course. So when I first saw this film, you know, probably, you know, a couple of years after it was released theatrically, I did not see it in the theater. Almost nobody did. So but I saw it probably, you know, on HBO or cable on television.

00:13:14:19 - 00:13:35:17

Clark

And it was one of those things where back then in those days, you just watched wherever the heck was playing. So, yes, yeah, I was just, you know, even back then, I was a big film fan. And so I would watch basically whatever the heck I could get my hands on. And so this was probably just came on the TV and I just started watching it and I didn't know what to expect either.

00:13:35:17 - 00:13:39:09

Clark

And holy crap, I was really blown away by it. Um.

00:13:39:23 - 00:13:43:04

Cullen

I definitely, I had a big I had like a, you know, I had a grin on my face.

00:13:43:09 - 00:13:44:08

Clark

Yeah, well, that.

00:13:44:12 - 00:13:50:01

Cullen

Is a very charming movie. I think. I'd say that's one way to describe it. It's. It just everything is. It's just.

00:13:50:11 - 00:13:51:15

Clark

There's an energy about.

00:13:51:15 - 00:13:52:01

Cullen

Antic.

00:13:52:01 - 00:14:14:10

Clark

Yeah, and there's an energy about it. There's that the kinetic nature of how it's shot. And I just the the economy of the story it just and again like the relatability I think it all adds up to and I think that's a great word to use. It's a very charming film. But I you know, so this film, you know, so I saw it way back when it stuck in my mind.

00:14:14:10 - 00:14:33:19

Clark

And then, of course, you know, it wasn't until, you know, I don't even think VHS is when this film really kind of found an audience, although maybe it was starting to build. But I think really it was DVD when we really had this huge surge in at home, you know, just accessibility. Accessibility. Yeah. And then I think it really took off.

00:14:34:01 - 00:14:55:18

Clark

Yeah. It found an audience and and it's it's done exceptionally well And then I've been able to be written to Riva Revisited of course. And now Shout Factory has actually released a few years ago a really wonderful Blu ray release with director's commentary and some other interviews, and which is, I think, the best way that you can probably watch this film today.

00:14:57:00 - 00:15:11:16

Clark

But and, you know, it's kind of I don't know if that's happened to you and maybe you need to add a few years before it really, really happens to you. But it's kind of fun to have a film that you really felt warmly toward when you were young and then have that.

00:15:11:16 - 00:15:12:17

Cullen

Oh, I've had that, Yeah.

00:15:12:17 - 00:15:16:22

Clark

And then again, But nobody else, you know, you're like, Who in the hell I have?

00:15:16:22 - 00:15:22:15

Cullen

Exactly. Yeah. I don't think it's something that we'll ever do for this. But there was a movie when I was a kid called Magic in the Water.

00:15:22:19 - 00:15:23:06

Clark

Okay?

00:15:24:06 - 00:15:30:00

Cullen

And it was an American movie, but it was shot all in B.C. in kind of like north of Vancouver.

00:15:30:06 - 00:15:30:17

Clark

Okay.

00:15:31:01 - 00:15:38:00

Cullen

And starred. What's his name? Uh, Magic in the Water.

00:15:38:00 - 00:15:40:20

Clark

I was like, Look that one up. I'm not familiar with this film.

00:15:40:21 - 00:15:43:00

Cullen

Mark Harmon. Mark Harmon Oh, okay.

00:15:43:00 - 00:15:44:06

Clark

Yeah. Mark Harmon Heck yeah.

00:15:44:10 - 00:15:48:15

Cullen

So it stars him and it's like, it's kind of like an E.T. rip off, Rip off.

00:15:48:22 - 00:15:51:22

Clark

It's a quick, quick, like smack in Me. They have exactly.

00:15:51:23 - 00:16:09:05

Cullen

That. I used to watch this movie a ton as a kid, and we had the VHS. I really wore out the VHS tape and nobody I've ever met, like literally nobody I have ever met has ever seen this movie. Okay. Yeah, but and I just recently, you know, within the last, I think three or so years, I found there's like, it's impossible to find anywhere online.

00:16:09:05 - 00:16:26:00

Cullen

And I found just a version of it on some like streaming site. And I watched it and I was like, there's actually a lot of really impressive stuff about this. Like, it it, it actually is directed really well. It's not a fantastic movie by any means, but like, there's like a really, you know, just close to your heart charm of it.

00:16:26:00 - 00:16:37:13

Cullen

And it's close. So I actually emailed the director and told him that that was a movie that had a huge impact on me as a kid. And it's like this kind of Amblin knockoff type thing. But, but I emailed. I told him that.

00:16:37:13 - 00:16:39:20

Clark

I messaged Phil, I sent Phil a note.

00:16:39:21 - 00:16:41:22

Cullen

Oh, really weird. And I. But did he respond?

00:16:42:01 - 00:16:43:02

Clark

Well, I just did it yesterday.

00:16:43:04 - 00:16:43:16

Cullen

It to me.

00:16:43:17 - 00:17:02:08

Clark

Yeah, I just did it yesterday. So. So Phil, if you're listening. Yeah, I sent you a note. Yeah, but basically, and not that I don't require any response, but I just sent a note saying thanks because it was an inspirational film to me at 3:00. Hey, I mean, let's, let's kind of I think the and this is interesting.

00:17:02:08 - 00:17:20:21

Clark

So I didn't know a lot about what we're going to talk about here as far as the background and how this film kind of came to be. I didn't know any of this until like now, basically. Yeah, I was super surprised about the heritage of this film. I mean, so so right off the bat, what kind of start with what I think is extremely interesting.

00:17:20:21 - 00:17:39:12

Clark

So this film was actually Ghost, produced by Steven Spielberg and Amblin, and I had no idea because of course it's, you know, if you if you look at the credits, it's it's it's produced by spelling, right? Aaron Spelling.

00:17:39:20 - 00:17:40:05

Cullen

Yes.

00:17:40:10 - 00:17:50:09

Clark

And who's of course, huge in television and but apparently and I'm not I don't. Did you do you recall did you get a chance to read like exactly how that came to be?

00:17:50:13 - 00:17:54:12

Cullen

I'm not 100% I'm not sure. It's it's actually quite difficult to find a wall, some.

00:17:54:12 - 00:18:36:23

Clark

Weird kind of politics. Yeah. You know, but basically, you know, spelling owned the script. He didn't want to give it up, but he, you know, but he kind of handed it off to Amblin and Steven Spielberg. And then the director of this film, Phil Jianyu, was a USC student and had done like a 30 minute student film called Last Chance Dance that apparently Spielberg, probably as a USC graduate himself, got caught a glimpse of somehow and really liked it and saw potential and so kind of self and Steve developed a relationship and Steven Spielberg asked Phil to direct a couple.

00:18:37:04 - 00:19:00:04

Clark

Spielberg used to produce this television show called Amazing Stories. Yeah. And so Phil's a who directed a couple of those and apparently did a good enough job that Spielberg gave him this script. And apparently Phil kind of declined at first and then immediately realized that was insane, too. Declined an opportunity to direct a feature film.

00:19:00:04 - 00:19:00:11

Cullen

Sold.

00:19:00:17 - 00:19:16:17

Clark

Yeah, 24 years old. To direct a film, you know, produced by Steven Spielberg and Amblin. He was like, Whoa, what the heck am I thinking? Yeah, But, you know, originally his thought was, you know, I don't want to do another one of these. John Hughes high school movies. Right. Which is what you thought it was going to be.

00:19:16:22 - 00:19:21:23

Cullen

Yes. And you know who I love? I mean. No, no, Of course, stayed on John Hughes at all, right.

00:19:21:23 - 00:19:44:21

Clark

Yeah, but it's but right. You don't want to see kind of a rip off of passion or you don't want to see that rehashed. Well, and Phil didn't want to do that. Yeah, it's apparently the script was definitely a lighter, kind of more John Hughes esque script originally. Well, so apparently Phil came back like chased after Spielberg, met him in his office the next morning and was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:19:44:21 - 00:20:04:17

Clark

I changed my mind. I don't know what I was thinking. I was nuts. You know, I do want to direct this. And and so he took on the project. He asked Spielberg for the ability to rewrite the script, which, again, it's like he's 24 years old. It's like crazy to think that, A, you'd be directing a feature film, you know, you're first introduced by such a work producer, basically.

00:20:04:17 - 00:20:27:07

Clark

GOLDBERG But now you're saying, Hey, I want to rewrite it. And, you know, this first time he would have ever done this, but he did it. Spielberg convinced Universal. So, I mean, basically whatever Spielberg said went. So Spielberg said, Hey, my boy wants to rewrite the script. And so Universal said, okay, So one of the perks of having Steven Spielberg exec produce your film, for sure.

00:20:28:00 - 00:20:35:05

Clark

But he rewrote it. And I think that's my understanding is that's where a lot of more of this kind of darker kind of black comedy, really the tone.

00:20:35:05 - 00:20:41:04

Cullen

Of this, again, it's like we haven't really touched on this yet, but yeah, it it feels so much like after hours.

00:20:41:18 - 00:20:42:18

Clark

Oh, which is.

00:20:42:18 - 00:20:43:17

Cullen

Very, very.

00:20:43:22 - 00:20:44:18

Clark

Very much so.

00:20:44:18 - 00:20:48:18

Cullen

Yeah. And it's directly referenced in that they had mentioned that that was kind of what.

00:20:49:04 - 00:20:50:01

Clark

A big inspiration.

00:20:50:01 - 00:20:54:18

Cullen

To go for it. Yeah. But which I love, I mean I love After Hours is one of my I think.

00:20:54:21 - 00:20:56:02

Clark

It's a fan of arguably.

00:20:56:02 - 00:21:00:13

Cullen

The most underrated scores as a movie. But but I think it's fantastic. It's a lot of fun.

00:21:01:22 - 00:21:02:20

Clark

And very similar.

00:21:02:20 - 00:21:22:21

Cullen

It's it's very yeah it's where they where there's just this constantly forward momentum where the story never stops but it doesn't feel doesn't feel tiring. It doesn't like where on you. It just feels like you're constantly just on this adventure almost with this character and everything keeps going wrong. And it's like every situation somehow compounds and makes the previous one worse.

00:21:23:04 - 00:21:37:07

Clark

Stakes were constantly rising. Yeah. And and so. So. Good point. Yeah. The film genre was definitely inspired by after hours and I think, you know, even stole a couple of things. He also stole some music from Jaws, which you pointed.

00:21:37:07 - 00:21:42:08

Cullen

Out in the in the bug. When they're in the science class, we have this bug documentary that says that it's a.

00:21:42:10 - 00:21:43:01

Clark

Scorpion.

00:21:43:01 - 00:21:50:11

Cullen

Eats when they're it's when they're going out initially on the orca to go it's kind of like a cheery, fun little piece that John Williams did.

00:21:50:16 - 00:21:53:00

Clark

And he steals a back to the Future shot to.

00:21:53:11 - 00:21:59:09

Cullen

Yes. Who actually the lead actor of this was the 3D glasses guy before. Yes. In Back to the Future.

00:21:59:09 - 00:22:20:09

Clark

So yes, 3D glasses guy. Exactly. There's all these connections. I mean, so it's just an extraordinary story to me. And, you know, and Phil talked about in the commentary and interviews for this film, how, you know, he he had no idea how unique and special this situation was because, you know, he he had just been in the industry.

00:22:20:09 - 00:22:36:16

Clark

He he was so young and such a neophyte that he didn't realize how extraordinary it was to have, you know, a feature film handed to you by Steven Spielberg, somebody so powerful in the industry. And and to be able to to do so many things like rewrite the script without a committee.

00:22:36:16 - 00:22:39:20

Cullen

Like any director would kill for that opportunity. Oh, my God. 20 for.

00:22:40:01 - 00:23:11:17

Clark

Any director. I mean. And so, yeah, it's like it's and so now it's even more inspiring to me because I'm like, Wow, what an amazing story. You know, this kid and this opportunity he got. But, you know, and then we have Barry Sonnenfeld is DP on this film a couple interesting notes there. I mean, of course, Barry has gone on to direct a lot and we know him from, you know, especially in the nineties, like late nineties, he was doing big movies like Men in Black and White Wild West and, you know, that kind of stuff.

00:23:11:17 - 00:23:32:23

Clark

But before this, you know, he'd worked with the Coen brothers as a cinematographer and had done one blood sample, which I think is a really well-shot film Raising Arizona. And then he did Miller's Crossing with Coens after this film in the nineties. But you know what an extraordinary DP to have on your film is a first year, the 24 year old director.

00:23:33:00 - 00:23:34:22

Cullen

Oh, absolutely, yeah. And the movie looks great.

00:23:35:03 - 00:23:55:18

Clark

Yeah. So the movie and I think that's probably one of the things that jumped out to me most as a kid was this was probably one of the first films that I saw that had a lot of this kind of kinetic energy and had a lot of these kind of moves with the camera. I mean, I don't think I had seen, you know, like ramped crane shots and.

00:23:55:18 - 00:23:57:04

Cullen

Pull down and yeah.

00:23:57:05 - 00:24:08:11

Clark

And all, you know, and rotating cameras and, you know, we, you know, starred on a bird's eye over the over a character and we come down and twist at the same time and in the.

00:24:08:11 - 00:24:32:21

Cullen

Extreme close ups on the clocks or the lock or like that. You know I honestly I would be interested to hear if, you know, someone like Edgar Wright was inspired by this movie, because there's a lot of that. You know, you think of like Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz. Yeah, he does those really quick kinetic edit sequence, like almost like the montages where it's like everything is a close up and you're hearing that really like raw, you know, sound mix and stuff like that.

00:24:32:21 - 00:24:51:07

Cullen

And it's very similar to this. So I wonder if that's just coincidence or if this is something that he'd seen. Because even at this time, you know, there's a lot of inventive, as much as it is very much, you know, clearly inspired by Oscars as a and things like that and Westerns, there's a lot of really creative, inventive, like original stuff in here.

00:24:51:12 - 00:25:12:02

Cullen

Yeah. And he is not showing off. It's not something that is that is like really? And I know that we kind of wanted to get into this as well. Yeah. Yeah. I want to preface it first by saying that I am a massive PTA fan. I love all those things and I know that you can say one thing on the Internet and then suddenly everyone you know there's going to be an article tomorrow that I want to like kill.

00:25:12:03 - 00:25:12:11

Cullen

You're like.

00:25:12:19 - 00:25:14:00

Clark

Disclaimer, disclaimer.

00:25:14:00 - 00:25:31:09

Cullen

But I like and I like the movies that I am about to criticize. I enjoy Magnolia and I enjoy Boogie Nights. Yeah, but what I find with So if you watch PETA's the first few movies starting with hard eight Hard eight, clearly a lot more studio interference. It was before he kind of had proven himself as like a big shot.

00:25:32:03 - 00:25:46:17

Cullen

And I actually kind of I'm the of the rare opinion I guess that that I prefer hard eight to Boogie nights and Magnolia because I think that studio interference restrained him and I think that his restraint there and the restraint that that was kind.

00:25:46:17 - 00:25:48:01

Clark

Of restraint him.

00:25:48:03 - 00:26:25:01

Cullen

Made it made it a more effective, more cohesive directional kind of debut, I guess you could say, whereas you get into Boogie Nights, which again, I really enjoy Boogie Nights. I think it's a great movie. But that's when he starts, you know, you start seeing him do like so many scenes or oners, and there's this crazy camera movement and it gets it gets to, I think to its peak in Magnolia, where there's a lot of of for lack of a better term, like kind of show off ish camera movement where you just go show a young director or director, you know, trying to prove that he can do these really complicated camera moves.

00:26:25:01 - 00:26:43:15

Cullen

And they're very intricate and very they have to be very precise with timing and character and, you know, what's the blocking like? And everything is kind of doing this big dance, which is really impressive, really great. I love PTA, but I've always found it a little bit distracting. And I found that the later PTA like, especially in in Phantom Thread, it kind of started and there Will be Blood.

00:26:43:15 - 00:27:11:07

Cullen

But Phantom Thread I think is one of my favorite, if not my fair favorite is where he it's this restraint. It's this, it's this. Every single camera movement is justified and you can feel, you know, why it's happening. It's not show offish. It's it's it's simple and it's elegant and it's again restrained. This this I'd rather it's it's kind of the same principle as like an actor bawling their eyes out can be really, really boring.

00:27:11:07 - 00:27:42:04

Cullen

But an actor on the verge of tears can be much more intense Like an actor that is that that knows how to control their their emotion so that they're about to cry. They feel like they're on the burst of that. Or an actor, rather than sprinting down a road, an actor speed walk like when you can't run, but you've got to like, quickly walk somewhere and there's this quick walk that can sometimes that restraint on any big kind of moment in a movie can sometimes make those moments that much more intense and suspenseful and yeah, just all around.

00:27:42:12 - 00:28:03:03

Cullen

That's just kind of what I prefer. And of course, this is all just, you know, personal opinion. And I find that this movie does that incredibly well, that every camera, every time that there's there's, you know, a more complicated move for the camera or something like that, that it's not distracting. It doesn't feel like the director sitting there going, I want to do this because I want somebody to watch this and go, Whoa, that's a crazy camera.

00:28:03:03 - 00:28:28:21

Cullen

Move. It always feels like as the the set pieces get wilder. And while there is the tension builds and the stakes rise and the day just gets worse and worse for Jerry, that the camera movement and the kinetic system of that is building along with it because of what's happening. And it never feels like like he's just showing off or trying to prove that he can do crazy things with the camera and stuff like that.

00:28:29:00 - 00:28:44:14

Cullen

Again, big fan of PTA love those two movies, but that's just something that I've found. That is a really neat kind of comparison between the two of them, because I find that this movie is very restrained. It's very mature, for lack of a better term, for a 24 year record. It feels very mature.

00:28:44:18 - 00:29:19:21

Clark

Yeah, that's so interesting that you'd say that. I mean, I you know, I hear what you're saying for sure, and I tend to agree with you in general about your, you know, restraint versus, you know, showing off or pushing. And and certainly those criticisms have been kind of, you know, levied at Boogie Nights and Magnolia, especially Magnolia. And I think I've even heard PTA himself talk about how he thought, you know, that I could have maybe used a little restraint on that in hindsight, you know, as he's aged.

00:29:20:04 - 00:29:42:02

Clark

But, you know, it's interesting to kind of explore why you feel like that works in this film and why you feel like maybe it was a distraction. And the others, you know, to me, in my mind, I, I never had you know, I, I actually I like Boogie Nights, I like Magnolia, and I kind of like sometimes it's like technical, you know, virtuosity, if you will.

00:29:42:02 - 00:30:13:04

Clark

It is not usually a distraction to me because I feel like those movies are kind of, you know, especially Magnolia. It's a very kind of operatic drama. Oh, yeah. High end, almost fantasy film, quite frankly. And so I feel like that camerawork kind of pushes that film in that direction and it's and it's okay. This film, I feel like it really works because it's, you know, from a story perspective, you're in high school, we've already talked about this where at that age things are so heightened, so dramatic, so emotional.

00:30:13:09 - 00:30:47:11

Clark

Certainly this situation, you can imagine how this would just be absolutely like the, you know, just the height of terror, you know. Yes. Yes. For a character. And these you know, all of these scenes are so heightened, you know, And so, you know, I feel like the camerawork here really lends itself to that. If I imagine some of these scenes without the more complex camera movements and we had, you know, a heavier camera, a more stable camera, I can imagine this if this were just shot on sticks with maybe occasional dolly shots, it would take so much of that energy out.

00:30:47:11 - 00:30:51:04

Clark

It would take so much of that that that driving rhythm.

00:30:51:04 - 00:31:17:20

Cullen

And that's what I mean about this one, is that it all feels justified, that all everything that the camera not that again, not that the Magnolia and Boogie Nights are are are not justified in any way. But I just find that I just found that it was very, very surprising to hear how young this director was that that he had to seem to have like this very refined sense of style in terms of the way that he he uses the camera.

00:31:18:01 - 00:31:38:13

Cullen

And you know, just set up these these especially the points where the camera is doing more complex things, like you said, the scenes that start in overhead and come down to kind of have like a double shot of two people talking to each other, even the moment when Chad that's his name, right? Chad is punched in the face and he falls on the bookshelves and all the bookshelves talk.

00:31:38:13 - 00:31:39:05

Clark

I think it's great.

00:31:39:05 - 00:31:39:21

Cullen

Or is Greg or they.

00:31:39:23 - 00:31:41:06

Clark

Hired the hired?

00:31:41:06 - 00:31:42:03

Cullen

Yeah, the football.

00:31:42:03 - 00:31:44:04

Clark

Like a football player. Yeah.

00:31:44:11 - 00:31:49:12

Cullen

And you've got all the things toppling over and then it just it just lands on them. Great, great, great.

00:31:49:13 - 00:31:52:05

Clark

Mike Charlie as Craig Matty, That's the character.

00:31:52:05 - 00:32:06:18

Cullen

And it just the camera is panning very, very simply panning with all of the bookshelves falling over, falling over and it goes on for like a comedically long time. Yeah. And then you just have it land right on the end. And they're just standing there behind the final book.

00:32:06:19 - 00:32:07:09

Clark

The Reveal.

00:32:07:12 - 00:32:08:10

Cullen

Over. Yeah.

00:32:08:19 - 00:32:39:11

Clark

Well, I think it's interesting. You know, just it's interesting to note. So, you know, again, it's my understanding that the directors and knew actually storyboard shortlisted the entire thing himself even storyboarded a great deal and even further he actually shot so all of the the final climactic fight scenes the DP Barry Sonnenfeld, was actually sick and wasn't even on location, wasn't even really there for five days of the ground.

00:32:39:12 - 00:33:04:06

Clark

And I think they had Oh God, I want to say I think maybe he said that this was a 30 day shoot. So for five days that he wasn't even there. So I think it's very fair to to give credit to Phil for the the look, you know, the visual esthetic, certainly not to take away from Barry very, very obviously a very talented DP and I'm sure he had a significant impact in things in the look as well.

00:33:04:06 - 00:33:26:08

Clark

But I mean definitely the director had a major, major, major voice in and the look of the film, I think, you know, rhythm we talk about. I think one of the things that this film is a really great example of are the the components, all of these components coming together dialog the know how the camera is used. Of course of course of course.

00:33:26:08 - 00:33:52:13

Clark

The editing. I think there's a really wonderful rhythm to this film that as soon as this film starts the and the rhythm just key and it's just beautifully maintained, it's got a nice dynamic. It speeds up in places, it slows down in places, but it's always kind of consistently building this film is a really fantastic example of of exceptional rhythm in a film.

00:33:52:13 - 00:33:53:16

Clark

Yeah, in my mind.

00:33:54:04 - 00:34:10:17

Cullen

Oh, totally. It's got, um, again, beyond just the kinetic energy of the camerawork, it's got such a there's just this, the way that this is edited and you know, it's not edited by Thelma Schoonmaker but it could be.

00:34:11:06 - 00:34:12:03

Clark

Yeah, but it could be.

00:34:12:20 - 00:34:17:00

Cullen

You know, like I think actually I'm not sure who edited it so, so it up real quick.

00:34:17:00 - 00:34:25:18

Clark

So but the the editor the editing is credited to credited to Joanne Fogel Doc I am not familiar with this editor Yeah.

00:34:25:19 - 00:34:26:08

Cullen

Me neither.

00:34:26:12 - 00:34:27:16

Clark

But Joanne Fogel.

00:34:27:16 - 00:34:35:06

Cullen

Is and that's Jo Ann, which is interesting. It's Jo Ann vocal, not like Joanne the name, but Jo the name then and the middle name. Fogel I.

00:34:35:07 - 00:34:41:22

Clark

And I. Yeah. And I can't speak to that. I don't like I said, I don't know who, uh, this I think it.

00:34:42:11 - 00:34:46:14

Cullen

Not a ton like nothing. Nothing super. Well.

00:34:46:21 - 00:34:55:15

Clark

No. Well this, this person did a fantastic job on this film. Yeah. There. I could say that for sure. Really quite wonderful, you know.

00:34:55:16 - 00:35:04:22

Cullen

And she's. Oh, she's so she's directed a lot of TV and television. Yes. I Law and Order things like that. But yeah, definitely. Houser Exactly.

00:35:06:02 - 00:35:07:22

Clark

I actually she Wow. Yeah.

00:35:08:05 - 00:35:33:23

Cullen

So so there's a lot of really great like just the again the simple like I think editing is such a again I said I'm not the first person to say this, but it's the final stage of writing. And I think that that is, is like it's never calling attention to itself. You never feel like there's like super chaotic editing that that that drives, you know, you kind of insane or distracts you or something like that.

00:35:33:23 - 00:35:52:06

Cullen

It's all very, very intricately placed. And there are some really kinetic edits. There's moments where things are kind of going a little bit crazy, but it all fits like everything. Yes, technically there's not there's not a ton to criticize, but this maybe when you come when it comes to the technicalities, like it's all done really, really, really well.

00:35:52:09 - 00:36:17:16

Clark

Yeah, it everything really together. Well, you know something else I want to shift to a little bit here, because I think it's, you know, again, it's it's kind of one of those films that's like it's better than it should. It punches above its weight class. And I think the actors there are some really, really interesting people here. I mean, I think like, first of all, you know, I think Casey as as Jerry is is like the perfect everyman.

00:36:17:16 - 00:36:25:06

Clark

I think there's like this perfect blend of kind of humor. But, you know, but he's got these great idea of his, like, seduction scene of his.

00:36:25:07 - 00:36:26:02

Cullen

Oh, my God.

00:36:26:07 - 00:36:44:16

Clark

Yeah, that's good language arts teacher. I mean, there's just it's and he he does a perfect job of of because I mean, I remember being a kid and I went through a couple of years where I was bullied, and that's probably about the time that I saw this film. And, oh, my God, could I relate to Jerry Mitchell?

00:36:44:16 - 00:36:48:04

Clark

Like, I just felt like I was this kid, You know.

00:36:48:04 - 00:36:58:06

Cullen

It's it's it's really, really. Yeah. He does such a great role. What's his name? The, um, to plays the, uh, the bully.

00:36:58:17 - 00:37:00:06

Clark

So. Richard Tyson. Richard Tyson.

00:37:00:06 - 00:37:00:10

Cullen

Richard.

00:37:00:10 - 00:37:01:06

Clark

So Richard Tyson.

00:37:01:09 - 00:37:06:00

Cullen

Tyson reminds me of a young Patrick Swayze. Like, he reminds me so much of Patrick Swayze in The Outsiders.

00:37:06:20 - 00:37:07:17

Clark

So interesting.

00:37:07:17 - 00:37:14:05

Cullen

It's like I was just. Yeah, that has a very, very mysterious air about him and stuff like that.

00:37:14:05 - 00:37:27:19

Clark

Yeah, I think yeah, I think that, you know, he brings a great presence to the film, you know? I know they did a lot. They spent a lot of time casting a lot of the you know, the leads are unknown. So, you know, I know. Casey now, how do you pronounce is it Sam ASCO? I know that he.

00:37:27:19 - 00:37:29:10

Cullen

He seems go I think yeah.

00:37:29:15 - 00:37:33:14

Clark

He did some work before this and he might have had the most experience of the leads.

00:37:33:14 - 00:37:35:19

Cullen

Yeah, but I mean in Back to the Future and yeah.

00:37:35:20 - 00:37:43:09

Clark

Richard Tyson hadn't done much and Ryan, Stacey Glick, I mean all of these, you know, kind of the younger the kids. Yeah, it's Paul.

00:37:43:09 - 00:37:45:08

Cullen

Feig's first little cameo and.

00:37:45:08 - 00:37:51:07

Clark

He's got a little cameo, but then we've got these great like Jeffrey Tambor is just like this student.

00:37:51:23 - 00:37:52:08

Cullen

Or.

00:37:52:09 - 00:37:53:07

Clark

Kind of, you know.

00:37:53:17 - 00:38:09:06

Cullen

But he's but he's great in it because he's like, he takes it so, so seriously. He's built a bigger hall. I was another thing I message you during this that I was like, I see where they got Philip Baker Hall Seinfeld character. Yeah, he's just playing this like, tough cop that's taking his little high school job so seriously.

00:38:09:14 - 00:38:10:05

Clark

And it's just.

00:38:10:05 - 00:38:16:06

Cullen

That funny, Bryan, in that when he's the one, he's the librarian cop. And in Seinfeld, it's like, very similar, but yeah, Jumpy.

00:38:16:06 - 00:38:19:04

Clark

Ryan Yep. And he's great. It's there's just a ton.

00:38:19:04 - 00:38:20:23

Cullen

Of it's punched in the face, right? Yeah.

00:38:21:04 - 00:38:41:21

Clark

Yeah. Almost everybody gets punched in the face in the end. Let's face it, Right? Yeah. The great performances that I do have a fun. So a fun little story about Richard Tyson. So, you know, like I said, I mean, I grew up with this film. It's kind of a part of my own mythology, as you know, inspired me to be a filmmaker.

00:38:41:21 - 00:39:10:02

Clark

I connected to it. And so it's like been kind of seared into my brain, right? These characters in this story. So fast forward, this is probably now maybe a decade ago, I was living in Los Angeles and I was actively pursuing a career as an actor. I was interning for Sovereign Talent, which is a theatrical agency. I think they did commercial stuff too, but they were theatrical and commercial agent, like a boutique agent.

00:39:10:08 - 00:39:30:18

Clark

But but definitely a reputable one in Los Angeles. And I would intern there, and I think I spent, you know, an afternoon every week or something. You know, I would like help with submissions and read scripts and kind of give notes for the agents and, you know, all this kind of stuff. Right. And just, you know, mail out submissions for their actors.

00:39:30:18 - 00:39:52:12

Clark

And we're still like in this crossover era of like there were still physical resumes and headshots by tens, but then we were also shifting to submitting electronically. So yeah, it was kind of kind of all this period, all this crap going on, right? Well, so I didn't even know, but Richard Tyson was repped by them at the time, so I'm just doing my thing.

00:39:52:12 - 00:40:10:13

Clark

I'm like, busy file, you know, busy like filing papers or whatever the heck I'm doing, you know? And somebody walks into the office and I look up and it's freaking Richard Tyson standing right there. And it caught me off guard because in my mind, all I could think was like, Buddy Revelle.

00:40:10:13 - 00:40:13:00

Cullen

Now, gosh, yeah, that's hilarious.

00:40:13:01 - 00:40:21:19

Clark

And I swear, dude, like inside me, like, I somehow it instantly to like a middle school, like kid.

00:40:21:23 - 00:40:22:20

Cullen

You didn't want to touch him.

00:40:23:02 - 00:40:45:19

Clark

I was like, I was Jerry Mitchell, dude. Yeah. And I and I don't remember, like, verbatim, but it was something like, you know, where it's like you just completely saying the wrong things because you're so anxious. So I, like, tripped over my word. Like he actually came to me to ask me for something like, you know, it was probably something like, you know, hey, is, you know, agent blah, blah, blah.

00:40:45:20 - 00:41:11:01

Clark

Here you know? And I completely, like, stumbled over my words and I just remember him just like, staring at me like, what in the hell are you doing? Dude, what is wrong with you? And I swear to you, I swear to you, he had the same demeanor. He had that same look. It was, like, so intimidating. I mean, and then afterwards, of course, I was just like, Oh, my God, you're such an idiot, Clark.

00:41:11:01 - 00:41:28:00

Clark

Like, what is wrong with you? I mean, I could have done or said any number of things. I could have thanked him for his performance. I could have told him how much the film meant to me. I could have, you know, hell, I probably could have gotten his autograph or something if I played my cards right and, you know, and and but instead I just, like, turned into Jerry Mitchell in this film.

00:41:28:00 - 00:41:28:07

Clark

But.

00:41:28:14 - 00:41:30:06

Cullen

Well, I mean, hey, you got a great story out of it.

00:41:30:07 - 00:41:49:06

Clark

Yeah, it's. Well, it's a testament to his performance. Right. But I swear, I mean, look at Adam, and I don't even, you know, I don't even remember him being particularly tall or. But he was just such an intimidating presence. I was like. And of course, all of my baggage and history with this story and this character. So anyway, here's my little like brush with with Richard Tyson.

00:41:49:12 - 00:41:57:23

Clark

That's from the film. Yeah. Yeah. So but oh my gosh. Yeah. Let's just say he's he's good at that. At, at intimidation. Yeah. Yeah.

00:41:58:08 - 00:41:59:03

Cullen

I played the role.

00:41:59:09 - 00:42:00:07

Clark

He played the role.

00:42:00:07 - 00:42:01:15

Cullen

So he was good casting.

00:42:01:19 - 00:42:03:19

Clark

Yeah. But there's so much good casting.

00:42:03:22 - 00:42:04:10

Cullen

Oh yeah.

00:42:04:18 - 00:42:06:07

Clark

Yeah. And I loved.

00:42:06:08 - 00:42:28:04

Cullen

He takes it like Jeffrey Tambor takes his role so seriously and it's great and yeah and it's I think what's really again, sort of shocking but also very inspiring about it is the fact that again, you have this 24 year old director who who is getting these great performances out of out of these people who are well above his age and well above his his weight in a you know.

00:42:28:11 - 00:42:29:00

Clark

And so.

00:42:29:00 - 00:42:30:05

Cullen

Within these periods.

00:42:30:05 - 00:42:38:03

Clark

In many cases, I mean, you know, it's like Philip Baker Hall had been acting, you know, like one and a half times longer than he had been alive.

00:42:38:03 - 00:42:38:09

Cullen

Life.

00:42:38:13 - 00:43:03:09

Clark

At this point, you know, But so had John P Ryan And I love these little Easter eggs, like Yeardley Smith is like in the in the beginning and at the very end, she kind of bookends the whole film. And, you know, she is kind of like, you know, just like these little tiny things, like when I was a kid, there was another film that I really loved called The Legend of Billie Jean, which is a 1985 film.

00:43:03:09 - 00:43:26:00

Clark

She has a much larger role. She's one of the leads and that and it's as if you were kind of like a kid in the eighties, just these like little Easter eggs, you know, were just kind of fun, you know? So, you know, another thing, too, we don't spend as much time often talking about music as we do, like visual aspects and, you know, performance.

00:43:26:00 - 00:43:34:12

Clark

But wow, I mean, I really feel like I mean, at least for me personally and again, maybe this is kind of like having grown up in the eighties, but to have Tangerine Dream.

00:43:35:01 - 00:43:36:02

Cullen

MM Yes.

00:43:36:02 - 00:43:56:06

Clark

Well, your film, I mean, I think it's a great score. It's an amazing score and I feel like it really, I mean, and it does a couple thing. I mean it definitely like places this film in the eighties, right, Even more than it already is It really does kind of place this film in the eighties. But I think it's awesome though it does it in a way that almost makes it timeless instead of.

00:43:56:06 - 00:43:57:05

Clark

Yeah, you know, it's I.

00:43:57:05 - 00:44:01:04

Cullen

Mean, it reminds me so much of of like Wang Chung scoring to live and die in L.A..

00:44:01:06 - 00:44:01:19

Clark

Yeah.

00:44:01:19 - 00:44:12:13

Cullen

Where that is also a very eighties score. But it's like this like incredibly brilliant score that it it works so well. And like you said, it makes it kind of timeless even though that it is.

00:44:12:13 - 00:44:13:20

Clark

Even though it's like super high.

00:44:14:06 - 00:44:22:05

Cullen

Score. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like, it's like when you do something, well, maybe that's what makes it like maybe it is a, it's a staple as opposed to a like a cliche almost.

00:44:22:05 - 00:44:33:02

Clark

And Tangerine Dream was the best. I mean, you know, and at this time, I mean, Tangerine Dream and I think they even called back to it, you know, when did risky Business come out? Do you remember when.

00:44:33:02 - 00:44:35:06

Cullen

Risk 1984.

00:44:35:06 - 00:44:37:13

Clark

Okay. So it was a couple of years before this, right.

00:44:37:13 - 00:44:40:04

Cullen

Might be actually risky business, 83, 83.

00:44:40:16 - 00:44:41:13

Clark

So yeah.

00:44:41:13 - 00:44:42:05

Cullen

Four years before.

00:44:42:05 - 00:44:47:20

Clark

This, they even kind of like reference. You know, I think there's like there's a scene here where this well.

00:44:47:20 - 00:44:50:05

Cullen

When he's with the the microwave the.

00:44:50:14 - 00:44:53:04

Clark

Well there's a couple there's with the, with the teacher.

00:44:53:04 - 00:44:54:01

Cullen

With Oh yes.

00:44:54:05 - 00:45:07:22

Clark

With his book report that we kind of have like a very reminiscent of like the love on a real train. Yeah. The Tangerine Dream song from Risky Business. It was kind of a callback to that, but so many films.

00:45:07:22 - 00:45:14:08

Cullen

But when he can at the beginning, when he's doing the he's kind of slides in over to the microwave to hit it, turn it on or turn it off or something. And well.

00:45:14:08 - 00:45:17:08

Clark

That's, that's kind of a risky business. That's a visual. Yeah.

00:45:17:08 - 00:45:19:01

Cullen

Yeah. Visually, yes, that's visually.

00:45:19:01 - 00:45:34:09

Clark

There. But there's kind of some, some like music callbacks. But they, I mean, they were huge. They did, you know, Risky Business. They did. I mean, almost like it seems like I feel every like amazing movie of that era I'm trying to find. But they did Near dark.

00:45:35:10 - 00:45:36:19

Cullen

Yeah, I love near dark.

00:45:36:19 - 00:45:42:01

Clark

Like voiceover. Yep. Right after this. Kathryn Bigelow I think that was her first film.

00:45:42:06 - 00:45:49:14

Cullen

I know it was her second. I actually took a funny life. I took a Kathryn Bigelow an entire course on Kathryn Bigelow Universal.

00:45:49:14 - 00:45:52:01

Clark

It was her solo debut, I think Solo.

00:45:52:10 - 00:46:05:18

Cullen

Her previous one had been co-directed with someone who had done a lot of work on David Lynch. With David Lynch. I think he's like assistant director or something. But yeah, they did. Yeah, which is great. If you've ever seen Near Dark, Great movie. It is a great score.

00:46:05:19 - 00:46:09:00

Clark

Yep, it's an ad. So just they elevate the film.

00:46:09:00 - 00:46:23:06

Cullen

And I was going to say too sorry, I actually I forgot that they did the score for the Grand Theft Auto five. They did the beginning of this when they're driving to school. I was like, This sounds so much like Grand Theft Auto five.

00:46:23:06 - 00:46:24:04

Clark

Like it's actually.

00:46:24:10 - 00:46:29:10

Cullen

It's actually Tangerine Dream that did the. Yeah, Grand Theft Auto five some of the score for it.

00:46:29:10 - 00:46:29:23

Clark

Yeah so much.

00:46:30:00 - 00:46:39:18

Cullen

So I think it's funny that I was like sitting there going interesting that this is the sounds so much like Grand Theft Auto five and it's because I didn't realize that they had done the score for Grand Theft Auto five.

00:46:40:01 - 00:47:02:22

Clark

Yeah, they've done a ton of things. Yeah. You know Legend. They did. Legend they did. I mean just a ton of movies. Risky Business, Firestarter, Just a lot of these films from the eighties, they were just. They just seemed to be almost everywhere at, you know, for a few years. There in films. And then people kind of copied their style and, you know, was kind of really pervasive in the eighties.

00:47:02:22 - 00:47:21:15

Clark

They're kind of sound. But I think it just adds so much to this. And for me, it's such a treat now. Again, it's like almost timeless in its you know, in its timeliness. You know, it's just it's so eighties, but it's so it's hard to articulate, but it's like so eighties, but it's so like, universal. I don't know.

00:47:21:15 - 00:47:31:14

Cullen

I think I think just because it's so good that it supersedes the fact that it's it doesn't get dated like it's like, it's like one of those things that it's like Abba. We don't have enough time.

00:47:31:14 - 00:47:41:06

Clark

I think there's enough times. That is that's what I think it is. You know, it's like, you know, probably like a decade, like if we were talking about this film in the mid nineties, you'd probably be like, Oh, you know what, an 80.

00:47:41:08 - 00:47:42:00

Cullen

So eighties.

00:47:42:00 - 00:47:54:23

Clark

Yeah, what a typical eighties film. But now we're sitting here in 2022, which wow, blows my mind. It's almost like we're talking about, you know, a film from the fifties, you know, it's yeah, it's like so Well.

00:47:54:23 - 00:48:00:05

Cullen

There is, there is there is about an equal amount of time between now and the eighties versus the eighties and the film. Yeah.

00:48:00:12 - 00:48:21:02

Clark

And I and there you go. And so I think it's like now we're talking about a film and this really does blow my mind and this makes me feel just extremely old. COEN That, that, that yeah, I mean, we're talking about a film that's that's that is so old now that it is kind of like, you know, crossed over into timelessness.

00:48:21:02 - 00:48:23:00

Clark

Wow. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Well, it's like.

00:48:23:03 - 00:48:49:19

Cullen

I mean, it's like even like you think of something like The Matrix that's like the epitome of like the nineties that like neo tech kind of, you know, edging into the 2000s. This the, you know, Y2K, whatever and all that and technology and but but now suddenly all of that kind of that trend that like that cyberpunk kind of trend has like re reemerge because it's been 20 years and yeah you know whereas that was like so uncool in like 2010.

00:48:49:19 - 00:48:52:09

Clark

Just don't get me started on the latest Matrix movie though.

00:48:52:10 - 00:48:52:22

Cullen

Oh yeah.

00:48:53:19 - 00:49:26:02

Clark

But, but I want to talk about I do want to talk about before we wrap up, I want to talk about something else we don't often talk about or sometimes we do about these films. I want to talk about kind of the the the reception, the the commercial response to this film, or rather, shall I say, the lack thereof, because I think there's an interesting story maybe for people who are thinking about getting into the industry or maybe you're you're struggling in the industry or, you know, no matter where you're at, if you kind of are an aspiring filmmaker or you are a filmmaker, I think there's some interesting things here.

00:49:26:02 - 00:49:51:14

Clark

I mean, so we've talked about all of these different aspects that that we think are really admirable in this film. And I think we both are in agreement that the film is a really well-made film and deserves to be seen by people. I think it's it is a film that is absolutely, positively on every level, better than average and in some ways is exceptional and it deserves to be seen.

00:49:51:21 - 00:50:22:22

Clark

But sadly, it wasn't. And, you know, I think it's just it's an interesting example of, you know, my understanding was that basically what it came down to was that the universal marketing department didn't quite know what to do with the film. Now, who knows? There may be other political or economic issues that drove this, but but that story about the film is kind of that because it did have a darker kind of tone, although, of course, we look at it today from 2022 and it really does not seem very dark at all.

00:50:23:06 - 00:50:27:21

Clark

But I think if you put it in context of 16 Candles or something like that, you know, Ferris.

00:50:27:23 - 00:50:29:04

Cullen

Ferris Bueller. Yeah.

00:50:29:04 - 00:50:32:08

Clark

Yeah, you would. There is definitely this is darker film.

00:50:32:13 - 00:50:35:05

Cullen

Is more violence like raw violence kind of thing.

00:50:35:05 - 00:51:00:16

Clark

And and it's and it's a little esoteric. It's a little eccentric right for some of the reasons we talked about the the characters are a little more offbeat the technical aspects the camerawork is a little more, you know, offbeat kind of adds up to just a little bit of a funkier flick. And apparently the marketing department at Universal just didn't quite know what to do, so they didn't advertise it.

00:51:00:17 - 00:51:10:12

Clark

Apparently, it only received newspaper advertising about, you know, the day before it opened. They only opened it in 700 theaters and then they closed it after about ten days.

00:51:10:12 - 00:51:11:06

Cullen

You said.

00:51:11:06 - 00:51:29:16

Clark

Yeah. So, you know, it's I think there's like maybe, you know, there's a lot of different ways you could maybe look at it. But in my mind, I think it's a reminder of something that's important to kind of keep keep in your mind. You know, this guy did everything right in a sense. He made a really good film.

00:51:29:16 - 00:51:58:22

Clark

I mean, everybody involved, not just the director, of course, it's collaborative art. Everybody worked really hard and made a really great film. And in the end, it wasn't successful. It didn't find the audience that it deserved to find. And I think it's just a reminder of that. You know, you can't control everything. There are so many aspects to to really broad commercial success that boil down to luck or boil down to things that are outside of your control, that you can't beat yourself up.

00:51:59:06 - 00:52:08:16

Clark

You know, it just ultimately, there are so many factors that are outside of your control even. And this guy had luck that most of us would.

00:52:08:16 - 00:52:09:18

Cullen

Never, ever see.

00:52:10:01 - 00:52:18:06

Clark

You know, like, I mean, who gets to make a film? You know, your first film at 24, Steven Spielberg's producing, You know, obviously that doesn't happen very well.

00:52:18:06 - 00:52:34:04

Cullen

And that's and that's very much what I meant when I said that it's very it's like it's it's an inspiring movie in that sense that that, you know, I of course, you know, you're you're your own worst critic but it's like in terms of like daylight again what I just made it it's like I look at it and I kind of think like, oh, it doesn't really do much.

00:52:34:04 - 00:52:50:05

Cullen

It's not it's like there's nothing that's like taking risks or anything like that. But then I see something like this and it's like, Oh, this is such a simple story told so confidently. And that's all that really matters is just that you go with, with what the story, you know, the ending of the story serves.

00:52:50:05 - 00:53:11:08

Clark

And don't take your success or your failure too seriously because there are so many things outside of your control in the universe that can influence that, that you just have to you have to do it because you love it and you have to, you know, just keep on keeping on. And, you know, because it's it's interesting to imagine what would have happened to the film.

00:53:11:08 - 00:53:19:19

Clark

You knew if this film would have received a significant push, if it would have been more broadly played in theaters, you, you know, knows I.

00:53:19:19 - 00:53:31:22

Cullen

Don't know if you've seen any of his other work, but I'm actually very curious to see his other films now. Not that like it. None of them were were big, but I'm actually quite curious to see if, you know, what was his.

00:53:31:22 - 00:53:32:11

Clark

I am.

00:53:32:11 - 00:53:34:10

Cullen

Too stuff like because I think he you know.

00:53:34:16 - 00:53:56:04

Clark

He had the only film that I think I've ever seen of his was State of Grace. Now, the only other film that I've seen, and I remember thinking pretty fondly on that film actually, but it's been quite a while since I've seen it. I think that came out in like 19 early nineties, like maybe 90 or something. So and I saw that probably because of Sean Penn.

00:53:56:09 - 00:54:19:09

Clark

Gary Oldman is in it to I mean, there's a great cast. Ed Harris is in there, I think. Robin Wright, John Turturro, There's a really extraordinary cast in that film. So maybe that'd be a good place to start. Yeah, maybe I'll check that out again. But. But yeah. Yeah, I'd be interested to. We'll have to. I'm curious to see how his other films kind of compare to this one.

00:54:19:09 - 00:54:35:09

Clark

But what a strong debut director directorial debut. Feature film, huh? I'm glad you enjoyed it, Colin. And for everybody else out there, I hope that you enjoyed our discussion of it. If you haven't seen the film, go see it. Obviously.

00:54:35:15 - 00:54:42:01

Cullen

Obviously it's available on YouTube, like not for free, but you can pay a few bucks for it. And there you go on YouTube.

00:54:42:07 - 00:54:50:16

Clark

Or I mean, I would recommend watching it. Go get the shout. Yeah, you'll get the shout. Blu ray. It's it's a really it's a really good looking.

00:54:50:16 - 00:54:55:17

Cullen

Very rewatchable. I've only I've only seen it once, but I can already tell that like something that I would want to rewatch again.

00:54:56:13 - 00:55:06:21

Clark

Yeah. Fantastic. All right. Well, Colin, as always, it's been a treat. I always love discussing films with you. I can't wait for the next one. And until then, everybody take care. Be safe. We'll talk to you. So.

00:55:06:21 - 00:55:15:10

Cullen

Yeah. Bye bye.

Episode - 049 - Ed Wood

Cullen

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to episode 49 of the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I am Colin McFater and joined with me, as always joined with me. Is that correct?

00:00:20:10 - 00:00:23:00

Clark

I'm joined. I'm joined at the hip. I'm connected.

00:00:23:00 - 00:00:23:19

Cullen

Yes, exactly.

00:00:23:19 - 00:00:24:23

Speaker 3

I am your cinema.

00:00:25:04 - 00:00:27:08

Clark

Your cinema. Conjoined twin.

00:00:27:14 - 00:00:29:20

Speaker 3

Yes. Blood, coffee. Hey, hey, hey.

00:00:29:20 - 00:00:33:12

Cullen

Somehow we are. We are a thousand miles apart, but still conjoined.

00:00:34:09 - 00:00:34:19

Speaker 3

Via.

00:00:34:19 - 00:00:36:09

Clark

The magic of cinema.

00:00:36:09 - 00:00:37:17

Speaker 3

Yes. Yes, exactly.

00:00:37:17 - 00:00:49:15

Cullen

And specifically the magic of Edward Wood Junior. Oh, yeah. We're doing one of my favorites today. Ed Wood, Tim Burton, 1994.

00:00:49:20 - 00:00:50:06

Speaker 3

And May.

00:00:50:14 - 00:00:51:05

Cullen

93.

00:00:51:05 - 00:00:51:15

Speaker 3

90.

00:00:51:15 - 00:00:52:11

Cullen

Four, 93.

00:00:52:17 - 00:01:00:14

Clark

94. Yeah. Released in 94. In September to be September 23rd, to be exact was a it was a.

00:01:00:14 - 00:01:01:01

Speaker 3

New York.

00:01:01:01 - 00:01:14:07

Clark

Film Festival release and then it was released nationwide September 30th. So I'm so sorry. I'm not trying to be USA centric. I that's just the data that I have before me. I don't know if it was released in Canada at the same time or not.

00:01:14:08 - 00:01:16:00

Cullen

I think most of our releases are like.

00:01:16:02 - 00:01:17:07

Clark

Pretty well tied. Yeah.

00:01:17:08 - 00:01:17:16

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:01:18:00 - 00:01:38:06

Clark

So as always, I'm super. I'm super curious as to, well, I have some hunches, but I'm curious as to why as such a young'un, you would be interested in a film that came out kind of before your time, but you said it's one of your favorites. And so let's like jump into that. Are like personal experiences with the film we'll start off with there.

00:01:38:06 - 00:01:43:16

Clark

So yeah, Tell us a little bit more about why you picked the film and what's going on with you in this and this flick.

00:01:44:05 - 00:01:52:22

Cullen

Yeah, I don't. I think it's it's just, you know, to put it, frankly, it's a very charming film. It's like it's like a it's a, it's almost like a comfort food in a film.

00:01:52:22 - 00:01:53:15

Speaker 3

Yeah, it.

00:01:53:15 - 00:01:54:22

Clark

Is. It's super charming.

00:01:54:22 - 00:02:08:07

Cullen

It's like, really funny. It's really stylized, It's well done and all the performances are great. The music is fantastic. It's just one of those movies that, like, you kind of can put on and you're just pretty much smiling the entire way through.

00:02:08:18 - 00:02:18:12

Clark

I mean, especially if you if you love cinema and especially if you're a filmmaker, right? Because I think it it kind of helps you feel a little bit better about being a freak.

00:02:19:00 - 00:02:19:10

Speaker 3

Mm hmm.

00:02:19:19 - 00:02:35:05

Cullen

And I've got a note about, like, imposter syndrome and that kind of thing about, okay, how do you know? You know, if you're any good and like, yeah, both of us just worked on features separately and, and, you know, I think that's definitely a question I'm asking myself constantly is like.

00:02:35:17 - 00:02:36:08

Speaker 3

That's the thing.

00:02:36:10 - 00:02:58:08

Cullen

Just a huge piece of crap. And I just think it's good because I made it. So yeah, I think that that's to me, you know, there's this, there's this super empathetic, relatable side to this movie, but it's done. So, you know, it's referred to a lot as like a biopic, but I don't think that it's you know, I think that we kind of agree that it's not really like that's not the classification I'd put it under.

00:02:58:09 - 00:03:18:02

Cullen

Yeah, it's it's much more of a in the spirit of. Atwood Yeah. It's, it's something that's kind of trying to like capture the, the essence of his filmmaking and stuff like that. Much more than the essence of his life, because his life in reality was, was much more depressing and.

00:03:18:05 - 00:03:18:15

Speaker 3

Sad.

00:03:19:05 - 00:03:43:20

Cullen

And sad. And not that this movie necessarily shies away from, you know, the fact that he was you know, to put it simply, it's kind of like a failure in that in that regard and that he didn't really succeed in his dreams of becoming like a really successful Orson Welles type of of of filmmaker. But at the same time, it plays all of that with kind of like a really, you know, a lot of heart.

00:03:44:01 - 00:03:45:21

Speaker 3

Yeah, A lot of love. A lot of.

00:03:45:21 - 00:03:58:19

Cullen

Love. Exactly. Yeah. And so it's not and it's never, you know, it's it's, it's never making like a mockery of him. It's in fact, it's very, very empathetic to all of these. Like, you kind of said that it's it's almost like a little bit of like a kind of like a freak show in a way and in it.

00:03:58:19 - 00:04:02:21

Cullen

But every single one of them is treated with with, you know, a lot of passion.

00:04:02:21 - 00:04:03:16

Speaker 3

With empathy.

00:04:03:16 - 00:04:31:06

Cullen

Yeah, Empathy. Exactly. And so it I don't know. There's something about that a of course, is relatable because I you know, I make movies and it's about making movies and stuff like that. But be on I think, you know, any artist who like film or not would be able to easily relate to it and even add on, you know, a third kind of tier of that, people who aren't artists at all and have no real personal connection to anything that goes on this movie, I think, can still genuinely get a lot out of it.

00:04:31:06 - 00:04:38:00

Cullen

I mean, yeah, it's it's a funny movie. It's it's got great performances. Bill Murray is also someone who's fantastic in it.

00:04:38:00 - 00:04:41:22

Speaker 3

And yeah, like all around Yeah it's it's a.

00:04:41:22 - 00:04:42:11

Cullen

Good movie.

00:04:42:11 - 00:04:42:21

Speaker 3

And it's.

00:04:42:21 - 00:04:47:00

Clark

A it's a good example of, of Johnny Depp and his performance.

00:04:47:11 - 00:04:48:01

Speaker 3

Yes. Yeah.

00:04:48:05 - 00:05:06:06

Clark

Performances you know before he this is almost a decade before he did his first Pirates of the Caribbean film and turned into you know mega international worldwide huge film star And you know he had only done, I think four or five like what, five films or so, something like that. Five. Yeah.

00:05:06:09 - 00:05:10:05

Cullen

And a lot of them with with or at least Edwards's or hands we had done.

00:05:10:05 - 00:05:36:19

Clark

Yep. He had done Edward Scissorhands with Burton before. So yeah. So it's a good example I think of of early Depp work which is really worth watching. But yeah, I mean I share so many of the same thoughts that you just expressed. I saw the film when it was released. You know, Tim Burton was at the top of his game and, you know, height of his powers, at least, you know, and maybe he's had a couple of those kind of, you know, career points.

00:05:37:16 - 00:05:55:10

Clark

He's made a lot of movies that have made a lot of money. But this is, you know, he had done the Batman films and he had made a heck of a lot of dough, which is what I'm going to guess allowed him to make a black and white film here. And Ed Wood, which I think is a brilliant choice.

00:05:55:10 - 00:06:18:11

Clark

And we're going to talk about that a little bit more. But but yeah, so I think I saw it at the theater. Tim Burton was huge. Johnny Depp I was a fan already. I was a big fan of Johnny Depp. I had seen Edward Scissorhands and I just was excited to go see Depp's performance. And I think that's probably what drew me more than anything.

00:06:18:11 - 00:06:23:08

Clark

Maybe. I don't know if I was like consciously a Tim Burton fan or anything at this point in time, you know?

00:06:23:08 - 00:06:38:03

Cullen

Yeah, I mean, I mean, me too. I like I still I would say that I like a lot of Tim Burton's movies. I really like the Batman movies. Yeah, I love I mean, I love this one. Yeah. But I wouldn't I don't think I'd consider myself, like, a fan of Tim Burton's. I don't really know.

00:06:38:03 - 00:06:38:08

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:06:38:22 - 00:07:04:06

Clark

I'm not even now, you know, I'm not even, like, really a fan now. I don't dislike him at all. And I'm really happy that he exists because I think he's a very unique voice. And I, I always love that, you know, when somebody has a very specific point of view and a unique, authentic voice, I mean, that's that's a that's an absolute joy, even if that's not necessarily something that that really pulls me in really close.

00:07:04:13 - 00:07:27:16

Clark

But yeah, I mean, just to go back. So I think, you know, I as a fan of Depp's, you know, what's eating Gilbert Grape had come out the year before Benny and June before that he had done, like you said, Edward Scissorhands and I might've might have even seen Crybaby before this, with which of course there's a John Waters film from I think 1990, I think ish.

00:07:29:00 - 00:07:53:01

Clark

So I was a real big fan of Depp's and it was still kind of felt like he was like this thing to discover still, you know. So. So I was big into that night, you know, it was kind of my dreams were kind of blossoming about wanting to be an actor. And, and so I went for that. But yeah, I mean, just as somebody who was interested in becoming a filmmaker or working in that industry, the film was fascinating to me at that point.

00:07:53:01 - 00:08:22:12

Clark

And I had grown up. Now, not on Ed Wood's films, The Real Ed Wood. I hadn't grown up on his films at all, but I definitely grew up on genre pictures, exploitation pictures, bee flicks, because again, like I told the story before, but, you know, my parents would were into those films and would invite friends over and maybe like once every couple of weeks or a month or whatever it was, they would screen, you know, some one of these cheesy genre movies.

00:08:22:12 - 00:08:47:22

Clark

And that's how I fell in love with Mad Max, for example, which is hard to remember now. But in the way back when, the first Mad Max film was a total exploitation flick, you know, so, so I was kind of very familiar with this genre, and I enjoyed I enjoyed these kind of goofy films, you know, And and so so I kind of had fun with that when I watched the picture.

00:08:48:06 - 00:08:49:08

Clark

So I definitely want.

00:08:49:08 - 00:09:06:16

Cullen

To I think that what's what's what I also really love about this movie is that they kind of like Tim Burton especially uses this as sort of a vehicle to air all of the gripes with like the independent filmmaking process. Like they're they're filming outside on the street and then the police car rolls around the corner and then Edward looks at all his crew and goes, We don't open it, run.

00:09:06:16 - 00:09:27:15

Cullen

And they'll they'll like pick up the camera and run away or, you know, the everlasting quest for money. And he's everybody talks to as a zero interest. And the one lady who says that she's gotten what, 100 grand or something for them and then is like, I gave you all I had when I gave you that 300. And, you know, it's just this this great thing that I think anybody who has done independent film.

00:09:27:21 - 00:09:29:09

Speaker 3

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, there's that element.

00:09:29:09 - 00:09:49:18

Cullen

To that that you just get these, you know, some people are just flatly unreliable and then and there's all these funny, but then there's always also there's this kind of core group of people that most people end up working with and becoming really great friends with. Yeah. Who are all very passionate stuff like that. And so I can definitely relate to, to that aspect now and.

00:09:49:18 - 00:09:53:21

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah, now and like now when I watched it again. Yeah, yeah, I definitely had that.

00:09:53:21 - 00:09:54:05

Clark

Yeah.

00:09:54:12 - 00:10:08:21

Cullen

And I think that, you know, I, in terms of my first time, I honestly don't really remember what the first time that I saw it was or what my initial reaction was. I think I was like sick at home from school one day when I was and this is back when Blockbuster was still around.

00:10:09:03 - 00:10:09:11

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:10:09:11 - 00:10:12:22

Cullen

And I think my mom probably just like went and rented a few movies for me from Blockbuster to watch.

00:10:12:22 - 00:10:14:13

Clark

Well, she just randomly picked this.

00:10:14:13 - 00:10:22:14

Cullen

Yeah. And I think it was like this. I actually specifically think I remember which movie she got. I think it was like this Gandhi. And there's something about Mary.

00:10:23:03 - 00:10:23:13

Speaker 3

After this.

00:10:23:13 - 00:10:25:09

Cullen

Strange slew of movies.

00:10:25:11 - 00:10:26:22

Speaker 3

What a selection.

00:10:27:04 - 00:10:48:10

Cullen

Yeah, but, um. But yeah, the, the and so I don't really remember my initial reaction. Of course, I've always been interested in making movies, but I think, yeah, you know, to me it was just kind of like a funny movie with with Johnny Depp and Dracula and then I rewatched it, um, probably, you know, maybe around the time I graduated high school.

00:10:48:10 - 00:11:03:05

Cullen

Okay. And I think I connected to it a lot more emotionally. Um, you know, I think I just, like, really, really understood a lot of, like, the struggles of Edward, even though, you know, I don't know a lot about Edward. And so I'm not sure exactly what he was like in real life, but.

00:11:03:10 - 00:11:05:18

Clark

The struggles of somebody in that position.

00:11:05:18 - 00:11:09:02

Cullen

Yeah, yeah. And definitely the struggles of the Edward that is presented in this film.

00:11:09:02 - 00:11:45:06

Clark

And and I think that's like one of the real joys. And that's certainly what, you know, this wasn't as much a part of my experience when I saw it the first time around, but, but seen and I haven't seen it in a very long time. But watching it now in preparation for this podcast after you'd recommended it, I you know, that is the number one thing that stands out to me by far is my connection to this film as somebody who I can so greatly empathize with a character who and with this I think we all or most of us have this part of us somewhere it's larger and others may be smaller in others,

00:11:45:06 - 00:12:09:05

Clark

but this part of is where we want something in life. We have a dream and and, you know, at some point, hopefully we are pursuing that dream and inevitably along the way are questioning, am I deluded? Do I have any talent in this? Is this something I should even be pursuing, or am I just crazy? Am I have I tricked myself into thinking that this is my calling?

00:12:09:05 - 00:12:16:06

Clark

Am I? Because you look at the world around you and we see examples of delusion all day long as I'm actually in art, and especially.

00:12:16:15 - 00:12:18:01

Speaker 3

Filmmaking, and I've been.

00:12:18:01 - 00:12:22:14

Clark

Involved with a lot of projects with a lot of really deluded people.

00:12:22:15 - 00:12:23:06

Speaker 3

Oh yeah.

00:12:23:06 - 00:12:24:23

Cullen

I mean, and it's actually it's kind.

00:12:24:23 - 00:12:27:20

Speaker 3

Of it's included myself. It's somewhat it's.

00:12:27:20 - 00:12:40:01

Cullen

Somewhat depressing, too, sometimes, too, to meet people who, like especially I find this is very common with with actors because because it doesn't really you know, it it can cost a lot of money to try and be an actor.

00:12:40:01 - 00:12:41:09

Clark

But yes, it can hold up for.

00:12:41:09 - 00:12:59:23

Cullen

A matter for the matter of like you don't need equipment and stuff like that. So a lot of people kind of try and get into that type of thing. But there's a lot of people that you'll meet that just don't you know, I think this is what this movie really touches on that's really well. Well, is that that they you meet these people who are so, so passionate like they had all.

00:13:00:00 - 00:13:02:03

Speaker 3

So much passion. Yeah. Yeah.

00:13:02:03 - 00:13:07:23

Cullen

They're just like you just kind of want to tell them, oh, sit them down and say, like, you just don't got it.

00:13:08:04 - 00:13:26:03

Clark

You need to go back to school. Yeah, yeah. At least train somewhere. Well look. And that's what I mean. And so that, so for me that was my connection to it here. There's also, there are other that's, that's a huge part of it. The other aspect of it is, you know that you've got this Scooby gang of outsiders with Ed Wood at the helm.

00:13:26:12 - 00:13:49:01

Clark

And like you said, this film is extremely empathetic to these characters and all of these characters that are kind of whether it's, you know, wanting to like, been obsessed with angora sweaters or or like saying or being, like, allergic to liquid, I mean, and everything in between these characters, they they some of them look weird. They act weird.

00:13:49:01 - 00:13:56:06

Clark

They have, you know, all of these kind of they're very eccentric people, but they come together and they form this family and that's.

00:13:56:06 - 00:13:57:19

Cullen

Never mean spirited. It's yeah.

00:13:57:21 - 00:14:22:13

Clark

And that's what the filmmaking experience really feels like. Like that is what it feels like. And, and I don't care what film you ever working on, that's how it feels. You come together and you become a family and you're you're working with people under stressful situations and very long days, often on locations. Everybody's away from home. And so you really get to know people well.

00:14:22:18 - 00:14:24:12

Speaker 3

And so you really people's.

00:14:24:12 - 00:14:46:02

Clark

Like eccentricities are on display quite prominently in some cases. And so that's very charming. I mean, this film does a great job of of kind of handling that aspect of this of this industry and this art and a really lovingly way and in an endearing way. And that really jumps out to me when I saw it this latest time.

00:14:46:06 - 00:15:09:08

Cullen

Yeah. Now, one quick side note, too, that yeah, it's funny to me that not that this film is in any way similar stylistically to like a Herzog film, but the conversation we're having around this film sort of reminds me a lot of like the earlier episodes of the podcast, which is a lot about, you know, perhaps it is because the movie's about making movies, but, you know, it's kind of it's bringing me back a little bit.

00:15:09:12 - 00:15:10:18

Cullen

Yeah, that's a really.

00:15:10:20 - 00:15:13:03

Clark

Like, what are you thinking of? Yeah, what is it bringing you back to?

00:15:13:03 - 00:15:25:15

Cullen

Just just about the, like the drive and the need for urgency and it's like this, this, you know, it kind of I see, weirdly enough, similarities on the quality of their work, but at least like, there's.

00:15:25:18 - 00:15:31:02

Speaker 3

Oh, I love this. I love this comparison between Hollywood and Herzog. Yeah. Oh, my God.

00:15:31:09 - 00:15:51:15

Clark

Okay, this is interesting. This is great. So I hadn't thought about this, but, well, like, we're going to take like, a little side side trip here for just a minute because I think this is fun. So, you know, I think look, on the one hand now you have Herzog on the one hand, and it's not like every movie he's ever made is is a masterpiece, but he has definitely made masterpieces.

00:15:51:15 - 00:16:06:02

Clark

Yeah. And I think anybody who has even a, you know, cursory kind of, you know, like like any kind of barely, you know, peripheral relationship with cinema can like, realize that that Herzog is very talented.

00:16:06:02 - 00:16:07:07

Speaker 3

Filmmaker Yes. Yeah.

00:16:07:14 - 00:16:30:15

Clark

In both documentaries and in narrative feature films. And he's proven this over and over and over. And you're right, Herzog talks about this urgency. I mean, where he'll write a script in just a couple of days, and he, you know, I mean, he's got this drive. He doesn't storyboard. He like I mean, there's like this intense level of passion and drive.

00:16:30:18 - 00:16:40:23

Clark

And then you have Ed Wood, same thing now tense passion, intense drive, like I mean, look, not to get too cheesy, but you could say that Ed Wood was a soldier of cinema.

00:16:41:04 - 00:16:48:05

Cullen

Yeah. I mean, they're kind of like two sides of the same coin. And I think the differentiation is more so the talent now.

00:16:48:05 - 00:17:06:11

Clark

But this is very interesting and I'm not saying there's any we're not going to be able to come up with any answers here. But just to kind of like just think about for a second, you know, because talent is a very interesting term, especially, Yes. In a modern culture. Now, other cultures have different ideas about what talent is.

00:17:06:11 - 00:17:27:19

Clark

So I'm kind of speaking more from my experience, kind of a Western culture and current modern day. I've been around for 45 years. I can't speak to what this might have been like 2000 years ago, but now, I mean, talent has a very it's a very loaded term there. And I think people have interesting viewpoints on what talent is.

00:17:27:23 - 00:17:47:08

Clark

Is it innate? Is it the result of a lot of work? Is it a combination of these two things? Is it something that exists inside you? Is it something that you channel from somewhere else? So this is interesting to me because I don't know that it's just so simple as well. Herzog somehow magically has.

00:17:47:08 - 00:17:47:20

Cullen

Talent.

00:17:47:20 - 00:17:54:07

Clark

And has talent and Edward doesn't. I think that's that's way to over that's oversimplistic.

00:17:54:13 - 00:17:54:21

Speaker 3

Mm hmm.

00:17:55:00 - 00:18:00:10

Clark

And I think it shortchanges what talent might actually be. But it's interesting to think about.

00:18:00:16 - 00:18:05:11

Cullen

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely it's just kind of funny because I didn't. I didn't think of that about that really before.

00:18:05:12 - 00:18:07:03

Speaker 3

Yeah. No, this right now that said.

00:18:07:17 - 00:18:10:11

Cullen

There's a lot of, um, there's no lines there.

00:18:10:11 - 00:18:19:09

Clark

And Herzog has, you know, and look at somebody like Kinski who is, I mean, you know, Herzog built a team of outsiders of eccentric people.

00:18:19:09 - 00:18:20:18

Cullen

And Herzog is eccentric himself.

00:18:20:18 - 00:18:22:18

Clark

And he's very look, he's.

00:18:22:18 - 00:18:23:17

Speaker 3

Nuts, to say the least.

00:18:24:00 - 00:18:43:02

Clark

To say the least. And this. So this is beautiful. Actually, I think that this is fun and this actually kind of helps me appreciate this even more. I feel kind of thinking about this and and it makes you wonder. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, they get I will get back on track in a second.

00:18:43:02 - 00:19:00:18

Clark

But, you know, it also I go through life kind of thinking and especially as I get older and older, I kind of think, you know, the end result doesn't matter that much. When I was really young, I thought that that's all that mattered. And so if I were approaching a film project, for example, I would be like, Well, you know, nothing matters.

00:19:00:18 - 00:19:25:07

Clark

But but what you get at the end of it, I don't believe that anymore. Now, I actually I think the end result is kind of important, but by far and away what's more important is the process of making it, in my opinion. And it's interesting that I feel like this film actually does a good job of kind of illustrating that in a sense that it shows how much fun he has in the process of making a film.

00:19:25:07 - 00:19:49:10

Clark

It shows the camaraderie and the family that's built around these films. It brings these people together who might be, quote unquote, too weird to do much else. And and they've kind of found a home and and a career and a purpose. And who cares if the film comes out at the end? Not that great. I mean, and this is a this is a valid question.

00:19:49:10 - 00:19:51:14

Cullen

And we are sitting here talking about. Ed Wood.

00:19:51:20 - 00:19:53:04

Speaker 3

Yeah, we're sitting yeah. So I was.

00:19:53:04 - 00:19:54:05

Cullen

Like, yeah, it's like he's.

00:19:54:10 - 00:19:55:09

Speaker 3

Seven years later.

00:19:55:12 - 00:20:14:02

Cullen

In that way. He's a he's immortal in that sense. And I think that that's yeah, that's a great point that, that the, you know, you get this feeling too and again this is specifically to talk about the movie rather than the real life experiences. We don't necessarily know what it was like on his sets or anything like that if it was.

00:20:14:02 - 00:20:37:23

Cullen

But but in the film, I think what it presents really well is also this idea that, like even when people are, you know, laughing at him or making not making fun of, but like they disagree with him, that there's also this sense of just like, well, okay, we're going to do it like know like DP There's a few moments where the DP is very funny sitting there going like, I don't know what this is, but yeah, you know, but no, that's and that's what I mean.

00:20:37:23 - 00:20:52:01

Cullen

Everyone's like, you get that big wrap party at the end, not the end, but, you know, probably three quarters of the way in the movie and, and they're all like dancing and having fun and everyone's just so excited to be there and being in the next movie. And Bela Lugosi is excited to be in his next movie. And it's.

00:20:52:04 - 00:20:54:05

Speaker 3

Yeah, it's nice to meet you. It's this.

00:20:54:05 - 00:21:23:11

Clark

I've experienced this and it's very interesting because, you know, because like, there are many facets to all of these kind of things. And I just I mean, why not? We're like, digressing all over the place, so, hey, great. But, you know, I've experienced this. You know, I've been on set, I've been on films where, you know, I've seen a lot of things that I, at least I perceive as likely challenges for the film as far as what the end result is going to be, you know, at least from my perspective, I see a script that may not be as strong as it could be.

00:21:23:11 - 00:21:41:23

Clark

I see challenges with performances. I see, you know, a lot of these are limitations with budgets, but limitations for a lot of different reasons. And and what I see is that there's just like this energy is is so infectious and it's kind of I mean, and I think anybody out there who's worked in the industry will have will well know what I'm talking about.

00:21:41:23 - 00:22:02:12

Clark

You've experienced this that there's just this like inertia that builds up. There's this like snowball effect and people just get so excited with the process of making a film for those people who are really there because they want to be that you just, you just like, steamroll through all that stuff. I mean, and people ask like, how in the world did this horrible film get made?

00:22:02:21 - 00:22:03:03

Speaker 3

Well.

00:22:03:11 - 00:22:19:23

Clark

The really cynical answer to that question is that, you know, somebody somewhere wanted to try to make a quick buck. And yeah, that sometimes does happen. Sure. Yeah. But but more often than not, the reason that this film got made and it's not very good is because everybody making it was like.

00:22:20:06 - 00:22:20:16

Speaker 3

Who?

00:22:20:16 - 00:22:28:06

Clark

Like just let's go for it. This process is so engaging and and is so consuming that you just move.

00:22:28:09 - 00:22:29:22

Speaker 3

Yeah, but anyway, and I.

00:22:29:22 - 00:22:34:06

Cullen

Honestly think that it's actually not too difficult to discern between those two things. Yeah.

00:22:34:08 - 00:22:37:14

Speaker 3

Like, you know, which is why I would stay things.

00:22:37:14 - 00:22:44:11

Cullen

Yeah. And I think that the matter of, of, of discerning for me at least is just that you can always feel the soul and the spirit.

00:22:44:11 - 00:22:44:19

Speaker 3

Yes.

00:22:45:00 - 00:23:06:11

Cullen

Of a movie that has even if it's a really bad movie. And that's kind of why you get these things like, um, you know, I know it's kind of tortured to death, but like the room and why that has such a cult following. But then when somebody goes on and makes a film that is sort of intentionally bad, like that's its own genre on its own right now, we're like a studio is like, okay, we're going to make this intentionally stupid and bad.

00:23:06:11 - 00:23:07:14

Cullen

And those always fall flat.

00:23:07:14 - 00:23:08:03

Speaker 3

Because they're.

00:23:08:03 - 00:23:08:17

Clark

Cynical.

00:23:08:17 - 00:23:24:20

Cullen

Exactly. And they're trying, you know, it's you know, there's a guy, the director named Neil Breen, who's this big he's kind of like big on line because he he makes these really, really bad movies. But he's so he thinks that he's amazing. And that's what I think is is the difference.

00:23:24:20 - 00:23:25:23

Speaker 3

That's what's endearing, too.

00:23:26:04 - 00:23:32:14

Cullen

Whereas like, you know, I could go watch I could go watch, you know, Star Wars nine, which gave me a headache.

00:23:32:14 - 00:23:36:05

Clark

And I don't even know what that is. What in the world was that one? I don't.

00:23:36:05 - 00:23:36:15

Speaker 3

Even Yeah.

00:23:36:15 - 00:23:38:05

Cullen

It was. It was the last one.

00:23:38:05 - 00:23:38:19

Speaker 3

The last As.

00:23:38:19 - 00:23:40:06

Clark

The Force Awakens.

00:23:40:06 - 00:23:40:17

Speaker 3

Or. Yeah.

00:23:41:05 - 00:23:58:14

Cullen

But that one is, is so like that to me is just soulless. Like it's, it's classically soulless. Nobody, it felt like nobody wanted to be there. And that's the difference is that you can feel and I have direct experience with that. You know I just I just made the feature and the like. There's this. Yes.

00:24:00:01 - 00:24:01:15

Speaker 3

And but there's.

00:24:02:04 - 00:24:16:06

Cullen

I was to speak to that kind of like on a personal level, I was like, there were sleepless nights. Absolutely. There were moments, you know, especially before a big shoot where it was like I would just get no sleep the night before because it was just so it was so stressful. But as soon as I stepped on set, I was not stressed at all.

00:24:16:06 - 00:24:38:06

Cullen

It was just a great, you know, experience. It was really fun and it was engaging. And it's like you don't sometimes you don't really if you are caring about the quality of the picture to such a degree that everyone is having a really bad time, then your movie is going to suffer in other ways for it. Whereas if you just trust your instincts and kind of go into it and go, you know what?

00:24:38:06 - 00:25:03:12

Cullen

I think that the choices that I make are going to be good either way, or at least hope So then I think that you're you're going to get something else, which is which is something that again, clearly has, um, you know, passion behind it. And I think that that is really, really the more important thing. And I definitely agree that yeah, it's not the end product to an extent is not the biggest thing in the world as to, as to what matters.

00:25:03:12 - 00:25:04:20

Cullen

Of course, you're trying to make the.

00:25:04:23 - 00:25:05:09

Speaker 3

Product.

00:25:05:21 - 00:25:21:06

Cullen

Good. I think most people are. But at the same time, like the biggest learning as a director comes from from the process rather than from sitting in a theater and, you know, watching the movie again and again. So yeah.

00:25:21:12 - 00:25:22:02

Speaker 3

Yeah, it's.

00:25:22:02 - 00:25:27:00

Cullen

In. And it really encapsulates that kind of that that entire Yeah. Feeling.

00:25:27:05 - 00:25:32:16

Clark

I agree. I think it and it does a great job of that too without having to be on the nose about it without.

00:25:32:16 - 00:25:33:19

Speaker 3

Having explicit.

00:25:33:19 - 00:25:38:03

Clark

About it. It's it's really just in how they handle the story as a whole.

00:25:38:15 - 00:25:39:15

Speaker 3

Yeah. And in movies.

00:25:39:17 - 00:25:41:23

Cullen

So heightened and so.

00:25:41:23 - 00:25:42:21

Speaker 3

Stylized.

00:25:42:21 - 00:25:47:02

Cullen

And stuff like that, it really is subtle in a lot of really meaningful places.

00:25:47:06 - 00:25:48:09

Clark

I think you're right. Yeah.

00:25:48:09 - 00:26:06:12

Cullen

The relationships, you know, even just the fact that, you know, Bela Lugosi, who was addicted to morphine, how the only way that you really get a glimpse of that is just the makeup artist rolls up his sleeve to put some makeup on him and there's just like a quick look and you see the scarring from the, like, the injections.

00:26:06:12 - 00:26:22:01

Cullen

And then they just kind of look at each other and then that's it. And that's all you need to know about where this guy is at. And it tells you so much about the character, it tells you so much about Lugosi in real life as well, because that that is authentic, that that is, you know, a true part of Lugosi's life.

00:26:22:06 - 00:26:47:23

Cullen

Yeah. And so and that's sort of what I mean. And another way that it's very similar to Herzog is this this kind of truth versus fact thing that we spoke about a lot in the in during the masterclass, which is just this idea that, you know, it's representation versus like representation. And so I think that this movie is is is representing things that that are based very loosely on true events in truth and true people.

00:26:49:12 - 00:27:03:04

Cullen

But it's distilling it down to an emotional reaction that an audience will have from watching it that will be more authentic than had they just made an off that like a true to life, uh, accurate biopic.

00:27:03:04 - 00:27:04:00

Clark

Right, right, right.

00:27:05:03 - 00:27:08:18

Cullen

Where something like Bohemian Rhapsody, like the Queen.

00:27:08:18 - 00:27:10:11

Speaker 3

Biopic, such a horrible show was.

00:27:10:11 - 00:27:21:02

Cullen

Was, which was all horrible. But that's exactly there was no like, there was nothing done with that movie. It was just it was just you might as well have sat down and had read the Wikipedia page.

00:27:21:05 - 00:27:22:22

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think.

00:27:22:22 - 00:27:30:09

Cullen

That that's I think that, that to me again, I wouldn't consider I would really classify this movie as a biopic, but it certainly is about someone who existed in.

00:27:30:09 - 00:27:31:22

Speaker 3

I want to say proven it's.

00:27:31:22 - 00:27:57:21

Clark

At least about it's, it's at least about Lugosi as much as it is Ed Wood And honestly, it may be more quote unquote, truthful or factual. It's more you know, it's more factual and factually accurate about Lugosi than it is about Ed Wood. Yeah, But I think that it's truthful about both people and even more so. Again, I agree.

00:27:57:21 - 00:28:33:19

Clark

This is not I wouldn't categorize this as any kind of biography. It's what it's truthful about is are all the things that we've just been discussing about what it means to be passionate about something and to put yourself into that, what it means to to be an outsider and to build your own chosen family around something that you want to do what it is to kind of and I think, you know, all of us, I'm guessing I'm going to guess because at least everybody I've ever spoken to feels like an outsider a lot of the times in their lives, because we all kind of are encapsulated in this, you know, meat bag that we walk

00:28:33:19 - 00:28:54:19

Clark

around in. And our consciousnesses are always, you know, tied to that. And it's like, we don't know what the hell else is going on in anybody else's mind. And we kind of live in our own world. And we're always wondering, you know, like, what are other people thinking? You know what I mean? At least most people I've talked to, it's like they we all feel like outsiders to some extent.

00:28:55:06 - 00:28:55:17

Speaker 3

Yeah, I.

00:28:55:17 - 00:29:27:20

Cullen

Actually I kind of want to read a quote from Tim Burton, too, about. Yeah, exactly. We're talking about what he said when when he was asked for the accuracy. It's not like a completely hardcore realistic biopic. It's in doing a biopic. You can't help but get inside the person's spirit a little bit. So give me some of the film is trying to be through Ed a little bit, so it's got an overly optimistic quality to it, which is I think it's very interesting, again, that you're you're looking at a movie that again, is looking at like the spirit of the person more so than just just a slate of facts.

00:29:27:20 - 00:29:30:18

Cullen

And like, I'm sure that Bela Lugosi didn't actually sleep in coffins and.

00:29:31:03 - 00:29:31:20

Speaker 3

Stuff like that.

00:29:33:06 - 00:29:51:22

Cullen

But but again, it also I think the part that really works in this movie is that it also heightens just the the absurdity of it all. Yeah. That I'm sure that, you know, the the real shoots and stuff weren't quite as eccentric and crazy as they're portrayed in the movie, but I'm sure that they were just as absurd.

00:29:52:22 - 00:30:12:09

Cullen

And I'm sure that the people that were working on these movies felt like they were just as in a much of an absurd situation as they really were. So yeah, And I think that that that truly is what what really drives me to like this movie is just again, just this, this it's so stylized in such a brilliant way.

00:30:12:09 - 00:30:22:08

Cullen

And I like I like I like strong choices like that. And I would take a strong choice like this in in this for the sake of like, Oh, for the sake of accuracy. Yeah. Than the opposite.

00:30:22:12 - 00:30:38:04

Clark

Well, let's talk about that a little more then. Let's talk about that. Because clearly, you know, Tim Burton here, I mean, clearly had proven from the very get go with Pee-Wee and even through a major blockbuster film, like I think did he do was it is two Batman films He did Batman and Batman.

00:30:38:13 - 00:30:39:18

Speaker 3

Batman or Batman Returns.

00:30:39:18 - 00:30:41:02

Cullen

And then Schumacher took over. Yeah.

00:30:41:13 - 00:31:08:04

Clark

Well, and then you want to talk about some strong choices. But, you know, even even with major studio blockbuster films, you know. Tim Burton, definitely you can say a lot of things about him, but he certainly makes strong choices. Absolutely. Yeah. And he you know, when you're watching a Tim Burton film, so let's talk about that in this, because I think this film is is a little bit unique in the films that he's made in some ways.

00:31:08:23 - 00:31:20:23

Clark

You talked about how when we were kind of warming up for this, that you felt like his direction was maybe, well, how about you? You know, why don't you just I won't put words.

00:31:21:00 - 00:31:34:22

Cullen

Yeah, yeah, sure. You know, I so I think that his direction here is what's interesting about this movie is that as eccentric and heightened it is as it is. I think what they've done, which is really brilliant, is toned down the Tim Burton ness of it.

00:31:34:23 - 00:31:35:08

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:31:35:15 - 00:31:36:08

Cullen

Where they are which they're.

00:31:36:08 - 00:31:37:18

Speaker 3

Still Do you mean by that. What do you think.

00:31:37:22 - 00:32:03:22

Cullen

So I mean I think the immediate thing that people go to when they think of Tim Burton is again, it's like these these very German, expressionistic like spirals, really eccentric set design and art direction that's very dreamlike. And again, very, very German, expressionistic. There's almost no German expressionism in this film. It's expressionistic in the way that Burton obviously is a very kinetic director and uses a lot of energy behind the camera and stuff like that.

00:32:03:22 - 00:32:21:14

Cullen

But again, it's it's a really toned down version of Burton. There's no crazy set design. There's no. And I think that what makes that so is that and I think you put this really well in our kind of preliminary discussion, which is that it's it's it's like Burton directing through the lens of Ed Wood and through the lens of the 1950s.

00:32:21:19 - 00:32:23:00

Speaker 3

Yeah. That's what I Yeah.

00:32:23:00 - 00:32:28:07

Cullen

And so it's, it's, it's, it's just it's less, there's less overt Burton isms.

00:32:28:07 - 00:32:28:17

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:32:29:00 - 00:32:48:02

Cullen

Yeah, yeah. You know, there's not, there's no really wacky costumes or, you know that there still are. I mean, you can definitely also see though at the same time where Burton's passion for these types of movies came from, because Burton obviously is super inspired by like these fifties B-movies. Well, you know, just look at any of his work, e.g..

00:32:48:02 - 00:32:48:20

Speaker 3

Concepcion.

00:32:48:23 - 00:32:49:23

Cullen

Active vampire.

00:32:50:05 - 00:32:51:10

Clark

Mars attacks.

00:32:51:10 - 00:32:52:08

Speaker 3

And all that. Exactly.

00:32:52:08 - 00:33:22:21

Clark

And I even, you know, in the in the commentary track for this, you know, he talked or the writers actually talked about how it was very when they were in the preliminary kind of negotiations of Tim Burton possibly directing this film. You know, they talked very extensively about how there were a lot of parallels. And, you know, it's Burton was a big fan of Vincent Price's, for example, and he loved those films and and genre films, horror films when he was growing up as a child.

00:33:22:21 - 00:33:32:08

Clark

And so when he saw it out and was able to then work with Vincent Price and Edward Scissorhands, that was a huge personal thing for Tim Burton. And so, of.

00:33:32:08 - 00:33:32:18

Speaker 3

Course.

00:33:33:00 - 00:33:54:06

Clark

This very much mirrors the story here that you have with Ed Wood. You know that he was a huge fan of Lucas's and being able to work with him was a highlight of Edward's career. So, you know, it clearly he's very personally motivated. And I think this is a very personal film, probably more so than Batman or Batman Returns or, you.

00:33:54:06 - 00:33:55:14

Cullen

Know, without a doubt. Yeah.

00:33:55:16 - 00:33:56:02

Clark

Yeah.

00:33:56:18 - 00:34:00:10

Cullen

And it might even be yeah, it might perhaps be his most personal of anything.

00:34:00:10 - 00:34:01:02

Speaker 3

It's possible.

00:34:01:02 - 00:34:01:11

Clark

Yeah.

00:34:02:11 - 00:34:25:19

Cullen

Yeah. And I think that that's, uh, it's just a really well, like, it's, it's got, it's one of those movies that, that just clearly has like a vision from the beginning to end of the process, not even just from the runtime, but like, of, like, you know, pre-production production that was very clearly, you know, everyone was on the same page from the cinematography to the and even just the fact that it's shot in black and white.

00:34:26:03 - 00:34:43:23

Cullen

Yeah. Which of course is always a pain to, to get a studio to agree to. And some studios were saying that they wanted first look rights or like you know cutting rights of final cut and things like that. And a lot of times what studios will do when somebody wants to shoot black and white is say, you can shoot it in color and then we can put it in black and white.

00:34:43:23 - 00:34:49:04

Cullen

But but I think, you know, it takes it takes a really staunch director to say no.

00:34:49:12 - 00:34:55:02

Clark

And and one who's made hundreds of billions of dollars. Yes. Which is where Tim Burton was sitting at this point in time.

00:34:55:03 - 00:34:56:18

Speaker 3

Yeah. So and and that.

00:34:57:00 - 00:35:00:00

Cullen

And you know, this movie I can't imagine this movie in color.

00:35:01:00 - 00:35:01:21

Speaker 3

Well, no, you can't.

00:35:01:21 - 00:35:14:11

Cullen

I think it would. I think that the black and white both brings you into the era, but also gives you this sort of subconscious, you know, freeing of the mind in a way that you just buy into all this, these crazy antics that these people are going through.

00:35:14:11 - 00:35:16:21

Speaker 3

Yeah, it feels like yeah, it feels like a time capsule.

00:35:16:22 - 00:35:35:00

Clark

It feels like a time capsule. It helped so much putting you in the set and setting of this story. It helps put you right back into the mid-fifties. It helps you, you know, because these were real people and our kind of conscious, our recollections of these people are in black and white like Bela Lugosi. So you.

00:35:35:00 - 00:35:36:06

Speaker 3

Don't see.

00:35:36:09 - 00:35:37:08

Cullen

Yeah, I don't know.

00:35:37:13 - 00:35:40:19

Speaker 3

I don't know what you're going to go see. Looks like hard, for example. So.

00:35:41:23 - 00:35:52:14

Clark

You know, I think it was a it was absolutely the right choice. The film. Yeah. An entirely different film. I think that if it were shot in color. So, you know, kudos to Tim for that for sure.

00:35:52:14 - 00:35:52:20

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:35:52:20 - 00:35:59:08

Cullen

And I think too it's it's I know Spielberg talked about when he was doing Schindler's List in black and white.

00:35:59:13 - 00:36:01:14

Speaker 3

Which was all somebody else in the same film STOCK.

00:36:01:20 - 00:36:36:15

Cullen

Yeah. And somebody at which a beautiful film star. Somebody asked why and he said, Because when you think of the Holocaust, you think of World War Two. You know, everything you see from that era is is in black and white. And that's that's how you imagine it. That's and it's and I think that it's similar here, of course, or again, very different movies but for perhaps couldn't be more different from each other but um but I think that that that logic holds in that you think of you think of especially someone like Bela Lugosi and it would be weird to see Dracula in color.

00:36:36:15 - 00:36:54:15

Cullen

And you even mentioned that there was a story about when they were doing screen tests with Bela, with with Jon Landau. Yeah. Or Martin Landau. I'm not John Landa. Correct. Of John Landis, but they're doing a screen test with Martin Landau and that that was in color and they were like, Oh, something's off. And then they just switched.

00:36:54:22 - 00:36:57:03

Speaker 3

The color of the monitor to black. And it was like.

00:36:57:10 - 00:37:27:19

Cullen

Dracula, you know. Yeah. So I think that, that, I think that yeah, I think if this movie was in color, it would have a totally different feel. I don't think it would work nearly as well. And I think that that's also really, really key. You know, a lot of people that I've spoken to write off, you know, modern films, I would consider this a modern film in terms of the scope of, you know, this is 30 years after the advent or more of after the advent of color or not advent, but the normalization of color, film.

00:37:27:19 - 00:37:44:01

Cullen

So it's not you know, they definitely were not shooting on black and white out of necessity. Um, and, but, and I know that there's a lot of people that kind of scoff at that and that kind of go like, oh, it's just they're trying to be like artsy or whatever. And they'll, they'll kind of write off a movie that's in black and white these days because.

00:37:44:01 - 00:37:48:14

Clark

Well, that's what studios are definitely afraid of. Yeah. Yeah. Off black and white films and nuts.

00:37:49:00 - 00:37:52:20

Cullen

But I think that it's, it's.

00:37:52:20 - 00:37:53:06

Speaker 3

It's.

00:37:54:18 - 00:38:00:11

Cullen

This is a masterclass of an example as to why color matters, like why those choices matter.

00:38:00:11 - 00:38:08:14

Clark

I mean it's it's a it's a lot less of a gimmick than some director who I won't name here wanting to do their film in for three.

00:38:09:22 - 00:38:10:16

Speaker 3

Yes.

00:38:11:21 - 00:38:32:06

Cullen

For three or 48 frames per second. But but I think and it's also also interesting too, that like there was a point when I did the movie that I was making, because I was I was going for a very Hitchcock style that I was considering shooting it in black and white, and I didn't. But I watched the movie in black and white.

00:38:32:06 - 00:38:58:19

Cullen

I've, like, turned off the color. And I think that it would be an it's an it's definitely an interesting thing. And I think it's it's what is fun to watch them back to back like that is to again understand how much color can impact the feel the mood of a movie much more so than people think and like all of these choices are are important down to like the feeling of again even aspect ratio a movie that's 185 feels very different than a movie that's in 239.

00:38:58:22 - 00:38:59:06

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:38:59:21 - 00:39:13:11

Cullen

And so I think that, you know, the amount of times that I've gone into a movie not to get lost on this tangent, but the amount of times that I've gone into a movie and it's been in widescreen because people think it's been two three, nine widescreen because people think that that makes something look more like air quotes.

00:39:13:11 - 00:39:14:18

Speaker 3

Cinematic right?

00:39:15:23 - 00:39:28:05

Cullen

And I'm sitting there going, like, the subject matter of this movie would fit 185 way more. And it's kind of funny that and again it works. It works with color as well. And so I think that I'm so glad that they were able to get this movie shot in black and white. I think that.

00:39:29:00 - 00:39:30:10

Speaker 3

Well, and it's not just.

00:39:30:14 - 00:39:33:07

Clark

Yeah, it's not just black and white, but it's high contrast.

00:39:33:07 - 00:39:35:15

Cullen

Yeah. It's not like it's, you know, in the fifties. Yeah.

00:39:35:23 - 00:39:40:05

Clark

Because even though it's black and white, it could have been shot in a lot of different ways. It could have been lit in a lot of different ways.

00:39:40:05 - 00:39:41:06

Speaker 3

Yeah. And they really.

00:39:41:06 - 00:40:11:08

Clark

Chose, you know, get, you know, it's, I think it's, it's just I think it's, it's fun and a medicine and I think this is what we've talked around a lot but not directly to so far is that you know what makes this film unique is that we are filming. So the subject was a filmmaker and so so the so Burton is is shooting this film about a filmmaker in the ways that the the subject would have shot his films.

00:40:11:08 - 00:40:36:07

Clark

So trying capture that spirit so and we talked earlier about limited camera movement and kind of you know restricting the camera to ways that they would have likely moved it. Then in the fifties the you know, choosing the film stock and the, you know, high contrast lighting, which is another way that, you know, that's how Edward would have likely shot or this genre films would have been shot in general in that way back then in the fifties.

00:40:36:07 - 00:41:01:17

Clark

So it's yeah, you know, it's kind of it's a really beautiful way of bringing us into the world of the subject of this film without having to tell us anything by literally in the choices of the medium. You know, in the film stock in the lighting, in the camera. So at the most fundamental levels, bringing us into that world and most people don't know consciously any of this stuff.

00:41:01:17 - 00:41:08:11

Clark

Yeah, no, they you know, most people aren't film nuts like us. And, you know, they're not going to know any of this stuff, but they sense it.

00:41:08:11 - 00:41:09:06

Speaker 3

But, but and.

00:41:09:07 - 00:41:10:17

Cullen

Yeah, it's subconscious. So often it.

00:41:10:17 - 00:41:14:00

Clark

Brings you right into that world. So I think that's beautiful.

00:41:14:10 - 00:41:39:00

Cullen

Not only is it, is it, is it lit like a fifties movie, but it's it's again, like you said, it's lit like an Ed Wood movie. And one of things that I noticed is a lot of the outside outdoor scenes during the day that they exteriors that it's almost like slightly overexposed and it looks like they don't really have, you know, these this day and age when when a large budget movie is shooting outside and this is the way it's been for for 50 years, is that they you know, they put up a flag above somewhere.

00:41:39:00 - 00:41:55:19

Cullen

So the sun is not directly, you know, brightly, brightly, exposing one side of their face and the other side's in shadow, especially on film. But I noticed one of things that I kind of noticed for the first time when I watched it this time was that a lot of the outdoor scenes clearly don't use that. They're just using kind of the natural light.

00:41:55:19 - 00:42:15:23

Cullen

Maybe they'll have a bounce or something below to illuminate the other side of the face. But but it's shot. You know, I it's not a bare bones movie. They had quite a large budget respectively, but it is it is shot to imitate something that was shot on a barebones budget.

00:42:15:23 - 00:42:16:08

Speaker 3

I think.

00:42:16:15 - 00:42:31:01

Cullen

You know, a lot of the lighting setups are very simple, but it's still really, really masterfully shot. It's a beautiful film, but it's and it does it so well it ever you know the last thing I'll say about the the look in the cinematography is that it's one of the best jokes in the movie is when they.

00:42:31:01 - 00:42:31:07

Speaker 3

Call it the.

00:42:31:14 - 00:42:40:00

Cullen

Red dress versus the pink dress or something. And they're like, which one looks better? And of course the movie's in black and white. And then the director of photography in the movie says, I don't know, I'm colorblind.

00:42:40:00 - 00:42:44:22

Speaker 3

I don't know. I'm colorblind. Go for the dark. Okay. The dark gray one. Yeah. And that was like, yeah.

00:42:45:01 - 00:43:00:12

Clark

I had completely forgotten that from the first my first viewings way back when, when it came out. And and I, I did think that was cute. And that's like a fine line because that could be a joke Like that could be too cute for your own good like that. And you know, you got to be careful. That's almost too cute.

00:43:00:12 - 00:43:01:12

Clark

But it was fun.

00:43:02:01 - 00:43:03:18

Speaker 3

It works. Yeah. Yeah, it was fun.

00:43:04:01 - 00:43:31:12

Clark

I mean, let's like, slide into a little bit performances because. Yes you know, you know, if we're talking about direction, we're talking about a lot of the visual visual aspects of the film. But clearly, you know, obviously, Burton did a great job. I think this is one of the most key successes. You know, things that makes the film a success is that I mean, you've got a lot of characters here that are pretty eccentric.

00:43:31:12 - 00:43:55:22

Clark

They're pretty out there, and I think it'd be really easy to misfire on tone for performance. Very, very easy. I mean, up to and including, you know, the lead here, Johnny Depp's performance on Johnny is a very talented actor, but this is a really line where these people, they kind of were caricatures, you know, I mean, you buy it in a sense.

00:43:55:22 - 00:44:21:16

Clark

It's like these characters are kind of taken to a level of caricature, but they're still genuine. It's still the core of them is very believable, even if their behaviors seem very stylized and heightened. We buy it. And I mean, I think Burton does a really wonderful job of tying a lot of different types of actors and performances in tone together for this film.

00:44:21:16 - 00:44:23:04

Clark

That really stood out to me.

00:44:23:15 - 00:44:29:07

Cullen

Mm hmm. Yeah. And Depp is so, like, charismatic.

00:44:29:07 - 00:44:30:18

Speaker 3

And, well, yeah.

00:44:30:18 - 00:44:46:06

Cullen

Again, genuine. And, like, he just has the heat. He captures this character of this this constant optimist of even when Bela Lugosi flip flipped out the guy for. Yeah. Or calling him Karloff's sidekick.

00:44:46:10 - 00:44:46:17

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:44:46:17 - 00:44:57:07

Cullen

And then, you know, there's this that great moment where where Barry Depp comes over, Edward comes over and he's like, he's like, Bela. I totally agree. Yeah. And it's like this, this is great.

00:44:57:07 - 00:44:58:04

Speaker 3

And it's he's got such.

00:44:58:04 - 00:45:01:11

Cullen

A great, you know, vocalization of even the characters. So fantastic.

00:45:01:12 - 00:45:06:15

Clark

But it's almost even like this, like, you know, these like fifties films that are like hazy and then it was.

00:45:06:15 - 00:45:07:02

Speaker 3

Well, it's.

00:45:07:02 - 00:45:08:01

Cullen

Just transatlantic.

00:45:08:13 - 00:45:09:20

Speaker 3

And he's almost like he's almost.

00:45:10:00 - 00:45:25:01

Clark

Yeah, he's kind of like talking in a way that we imagine and remember. A lot of films had characters speaking that way in that era where it's this very heightened, stylized, quick.

00:45:25:04 - 00:45:33:17

Cullen

Kind of like Jimmy Stewart. It's almost like it's, it's like that where that Jimmy Stewart kind of has this energy about him all the time. It's this this really positive and like, you know.

00:45:34:10 - 00:45:35:00

Speaker 3

And yet.

00:45:35:03 - 00:45:39:18

Clark

At a but but that could go horribly wrong. Yes and.

00:45:40:06 - 00:45:40:14

Speaker 3

If you.

00:45:40:19 - 00:45:46:22

Cullen

Yeah if you do one thing slightly different, it could be taken completely a different way and not work at all.

00:45:47:00 - 00:46:01:05

Clark

I mean, I think of like his girl Friday is kind of like such the typical, you know, kind of like film where people are speaking this way now that's a much earlier film in the forties, but I don't know, there's just a lot of you know so and it's but we.

00:46:01:05 - 00:46:01:18

Speaker 3

Buy was.

00:46:01:18 - 00:46:06:08

Cullen

Cary Grant Cary Grant was the most transatlantic you know yeah I'm here today to.

00:46:06:08 - 00:46:08:03

Speaker 3

Tell you about this There you go.

00:46:08:03 - 00:46:43:14

Clark

Exactly. We had this kind of manufactured fake accent that actors used to use, and but but we. But you buy it, I think, because the heart the heart of it, as we keep going back to, is very genuine. But, I mean, you know, we talk about Johnny Depp and his performance is very fun and we buy it. But but Landau's performance and of course, you know, Academy Award is is, I think, exceptional and in kind of another, you know, in more dimensions, maybe even in Johnny Depp's is which is that we his character's kind of trajectory we have a lot more space there to kind of, you know, see some of his challenges as a

00:46:43:14 - 00:47:04:22

Clark

character and and he does a really fantastic job of that. But I did want to see real quick before going off Johnny Depp, you know, in the commentary he talks about and gosh darn it, I can't remember exactly, but it sounds like Johnny likes to do this because I remember listening about him talk to his the creation of his character for the Pirates movies, for example.

00:47:04:22 - 00:47:20:10

Clark

And I remember he said, like, well, you know, I took Keith Richards and I took, you know, a couple of other things, and I mixed it together and I got Jack Sparrow. He did the same thing here. And it wasn't that he went back and looked at Ed Wood and said, okay, I'm going to try to copy what I see in Edward's work.

00:47:20:19 - 00:47:25:06

Clark

He took and I can't remember all of them, but he took Ronald Reagan.

00:47:26:15 - 00:47:27:15

Speaker 3

Interesting as a.

00:47:27:15 - 00:47:33:14

Clark

As one of like three pieces for for the work that he did to put together this character.

00:47:33:18 - 00:47:34:23

Cullen

Yeah, that's really interesting.

00:47:35:08 - 00:47:56:15

Clark

And gosh darn it, I wish I could remember the rest. We'll have to go back and listen to the commentary track on that. So anybody out there, you can find that. But but I thought that was hysterical or that it was, you know, and I think really vital that instead of doing and we've talked about this, instead of trying to go back and let's say I'm on a nail the way that Edward really spoke and really.

00:47:56:15 - 00:47:57:15

Cullen

His mannerisms.

00:47:57:15 - 00:48:26:12

Clark

And and I've got it was like, no, I wanted I'm going to like, reach for his essence and and, you know, and kind of go the sideways direction that it's not so obvious. Like you wouldn't fake Ronald Reagan, but it worked for him and it kind of helped him get into the deeper, actual, honest spirit of that character as opposed to trying to mirror the externalized, you know, kind of what he looked and sounded like, which is always a trap when films try to do that.

00:48:26:20 - 00:48:27:00

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:48:27:17 - 00:48:44:04

Clark

But yeah, just to go back to Landau, although, I mean, clearly an amazing performance. His daughter is in this film too, by the way, and Ron Howard's father is in this film, which is interesting. There's like some kind of examples of Hollywood nepotism going on here a little bit.

00:48:44:04 - 00:48:49:04

Speaker 3

What? There's nepotism in Hollywood. No way of getting me. Oh, there's.

00:48:49:04 - 00:48:55:19

Clark

Nepotism everywhere, let's face it. So. But what about I mean, obviously, those are stand out performances. What are your thoughts? I think.

00:48:55:19 - 00:49:18:02

Cullen

Sarah I mean, Sarah Jessica Parker is also I think like she is I think really has this again, sort of similar to Johnny Depp where she, like, brings in this transatlantic accent a little bit, where she, you know, but it's like this this very I don't even know which actor to kind of comment on and but it's it's it's like she'll you know, when she's like, do I really look like a horse?

00:49:18:02 - 00:49:26:03

Cullen

Like it's like this like kind of thing. And it's like, well, that and she's you know, she's got this great you know, it kind of feels like Leave It to Beaver, Like it's that.

00:49:26:08 - 00:49:26:21

Clark

And there's an.

00:49:26:21 - 00:49:28:12

Speaker 3

Energy. It's like, yeah.

00:49:28:12 - 00:49:35:01

Cullen

Everyone is like, it reminds me of, of, of seeing like, almost like really good theater in a way.

00:49:35:02 - 00:49:35:17

Speaker 3

Yeah. Yeah.

00:49:35:17 - 00:50:12:05

Cullen

Where, where, you know, actors often in theater are allowed to make like kind of bold or bigger choices because there's sort of more of a suspension of disbelief in theater than there is in film. And I think that this but I think this movie almost goes in that direction, even though it's all about film, although he does start out directing theater, I think that it's it's just yeah, like every every I think and it's rare to see this in a movie every single character, no matter if they have three lines or they're made the main character had clearly the actors put so much thought into the characterization.

00:50:12:10 - 00:50:16:23

Cullen

The two guys that are the police officers, I can't remember in a bunch of Edward's movies.

00:50:17:01 - 00:50:18:09

Speaker 3

Yeah, and these two guys.

00:50:18:09 - 00:50:54:07

Cullen

Are hilarious in this movie and they have like five lines, but like every time they're on screen and he's like, Well, I heard this one was going to be is his biggest picture yet. You know, it's like this this like everyone is just doing it. And I think that there's no better feeling when you're doing a movie that that is kind of like in this kind of subject area or genre area, when you get actors who are willing to do that, who are willing to just, you know, like again, throw out the sake of authenticity for something that is really energetic and truer and sort of more of an emotional sense then.

00:50:54:07 - 00:50:55:04

Speaker 3

Yeah, in your.

00:50:55:05 - 00:50:55:19

Cullen

Actual one.

00:50:55:19 - 00:51:01:09

Clark

Yeah. I mean, in the films loaded with great, you know, I mean, Bill Murray is hysterical. I think you mentioned him earlier.

00:51:01:09 - 00:51:09:07

Cullen

Yeah. Bill Murray's fantastic. I always forget Bill Murray is in this movie as well because it's such a movie that you wouldn't really think of him being in the lead.

00:51:09:12 - 00:51:17:22

Clark

Yeah. And I kind of vaguely, gosh, I don't want to get this wrong, but this is just kind of like my own recollection was that, you know, when this film came out.

00:51:19:00 - 00:51:20:11

Cullen

He just done Groundhog Day.

00:51:20:11 - 00:51:38:09

Clark

He had just done Groundhog Day. So he had you know, this was part of a bit of a resurgence for him, you know, Groundhog Day was obviously like an extraordinary fail and fiction. But I guess elevation because it's not like.

00:51:38:10 - 00:51:42:12

Speaker 3

Well, because he doesn't he does Scrooged because he did Scrooged ghost in 19.

00:51:42:20 - 00:51:43:08

Cullen

89.

00:51:43:12 - 00:51:48:23

Clark

But, but I think this really like took him to another level as far as where people were like, wow, you can.

00:51:48:23 - 00:52:16:06

Cullen

Almost also sort of see his the characterizations that he like the style of performance that he almost gives in like a Wes Anderson movie here where he gets less of the kind of fraternity screwball comedy type thing into more of a like a subtle theatrical comedy kind of style. And then because even if you watch Groundhog Day, he's still sort of in that like Ghostbusters again, kind of like.

00:52:16:06 - 00:52:16:19

Speaker 3

Kind of man.

00:52:16:20 - 00:52:18:04

Cullen

SNL fraternity.

00:52:18:04 - 00:52:19:18

Clark

Sarcastic kind.

00:52:19:23 - 00:52:25:09

Cullen

But then this one, he's not There's certainly the heir of Murray sarcasm. I don't think he could strip that away from it all.

00:52:25:09 - 00:52:26:06

Speaker 3

Yeah. Killing him.

00:52:26:13 - 00:52:49:06

Cullen

Yeah but but there but it's it's just it's it's subtle and he's he's playing this role that is so unusual for him, you know that that's so you know, my first choice for this role. I probably wouldn't have been Bill I wouldn't have even thought of Bill Murray. And yet I think that the way that they casted him and I don't know exactly how he was.

00:52:49:06 - 00:52:50:02

Speaker 3

Cast, but I don't.

00:52:50:06 - 00:53:08:13

Cullen

Know if he was interested in doing it. But in it, he just works so well. It's one of those like really unexpected things, kind of like, you know, Adam Sandler in Punch-Drunk Love where, you know, you don't expect Adam Sandler. As you know, I actually think that Adam Sandler has has some pretty good acting chops. Yeah.

00:53:09:01 - 00:53:11:06

Speaker 3

But very narrow.

00:53:11:06 - 00:53:12:21

Clark

Very. Yeah, I think. But yeah, that's.

00:53:12:21 - 00:53:14:00

Speaker 3

A topic for another day.

00:53:14:00 - 00:53:30:21

Cullen

But but you know, you don't expect someone like that to pull off a role like Uncut Gems or like Punch-Drunk Love. And then when they but sometimes they, they're almost like the best actors for them or even, you know, Jack Black has done some, some more dramatic roles that aren't as comedic and he's done really well with them.

00:53:31:14 - 00:53:38:17

Cullen

You know, say what you want about the 25 King Kong movie. But he I think he plays the role of Carl Denham in that super well.

00:53:38:17 - 00:53:40:09

Speaker 3

And so it's sort of I have seen it.

00:53:40:17 - 00:53:46:10

Cullen

Now it's actually I you know, that movie gets some flak, but I actually think it's very long. But I think it's a pretty fine movie.

00:53:46:10 - 00:53:48:07

Speaker 3

I'll have to check it out.

00:53:48:07 - 00:53:50:03

Cullen

Some damage to the to the original.

00:53:50:03 - 00:53:50:20

Speaker 3

I'll have to check it.

00:53:50:20 - 00:53:59:04

Clark

Out some day. But I mean, and then, you know, it's like, yeah, so we've talked, you know, Johnny Depp, Martin Landau, Sarah Jessica Parker. I mean, we didn't mention, but Patricia Arquette is in this. And of.

00:53:59:04 - 00:54:00:00

Speaker 3

Course.

00:54:00:00 - 00:54:07:01

Clark

I think she was just coming off 93 True Romance, Tony Scott's film that I love, quite frankly. And we might do that some day here.

00:54:07:01 - 00:54:08:03

Cullen

I do love Tony Scott.

00:54:08:08 - 00:54:17:08

Clark

Because I think True Romance is a fantastic film. But she had just come off that. I think she's almost, you know, in a way kind of the most normal.

00:54:17:14 - 00:54:20:05

Cullen

Yeah, she does less and. I think that's probably intentional.

00:54:20:08 - 00:54:20:18

Clark

But.

00:54:20:21 - 00:54:21:04

Speaker 3

But.

00:54:21:07 - 00:54:57:22

Clark

But but it's like I think it's kind of a sweet way to show that like you that and this is just me reading into it, but that, you know, as eccentric as you might be, you, you can connect to the quote unquote square world and you can find love and acceptance in this world. And that even when you see people outside of you and they look well put together and they look like they're, quote unquote, normal, they aren't usually almost certainly that were all kind of these eccentric outsiders.

00:54:58:02 - 00:55:32:00

Clark

And so for me, it kind of, you know, felt a little bit like that, that it was an opportunity to kind of subtly go in that direction. So, you know, hey, you can connect to to quote unquote, normal people and we're all kind of in one big pot. So Jeffrey Jones, somebody else who probably would stand out to anybody who's a fan of like eighties cinema, Jeffrey Jones is in it, just like I said, I mentioned Juliet Landau was and of course, Juliette went on to do a really wonderful job on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the television show.

00:55:32:13 - 00:55:39:14

Clark

And God, if I'm not, I don't want to get this wrong for anybody who's a fan, but I think it's Drusilla was her character's name.

00:55:39:20 - 00:55:42:02

Cullen

And I'm not sure I've never seen Buffy, so.

00:55:42:02 - 00:56:04:12

Clark

She was outstanding. She was really she was really, really strong in that show. I think she had she had a recurring role for a very long time, probably like the entirety of the show. I think she was on it almost from beginning to end. And then we've got Vincent D'Onofrio Yeah, so. Orson Welles Yeah, just fun stuff. So a lot of relief.

00:56:04:13 - 00:56:06:22

Cullen

Which again, I always forget that he's in this movie as well.

00:56:06:22 - 00:56:09:07

Speaker 3

Yeah, I almost don't. Rick Just the way he's lit.

00:56:09:07 - 00:56:16:21

Cullen

Vincent D'Onofrio is a funny actor because I almost like I always forget the Vincent D'Onofrio is in Full Metal Jacket.

00:56:16:21 - 00:56:17:13

Speaker 3

Well, see.

00:56:17:13 - 00:56:24:21

Clark

That's the one thing I always think of from him. It's hard for me to even remember other things. That is this big stand private.

00:56:24:21 - 00:56:27:00

Cullen

But he's been in a lot. Like if you look up Vincent's one.

00:56:27:00 - 00:56:27:16

Speaker 3

Oh. Oh. Oh, God. He's.

00:56:27:16 - 00:56:35:19

Cullen

He's a I actually really I think that he's very talented. He's extreme. Really, really great guy. I've heard that. He's, like, very kind and.

00:56:36:07 - 00:56:53:00

Clark

I mean, he's been in a million films and a lot of really great films. And and gosh, boy, I'm just looking here at his filmography. I mean, more than I could remember. I couldn't believe he Wow. Yeah. So he's been in a ton of things. And here's another one that might be fun to do some day. The cell.

00:56:53:12 - 00:57:17:23

Clark

Mm hmm. But a lot of great films. So, yeah, I mean, it's stuffed with good performances, I think. Really strong casting choices by Burton. And nobody here in the film strikes me as kind of out of place or, you know, not well-suited for the role. Just again, I think just more evidence that that Burton is just on top of his game with this film.

00:57:17:23 - 00:57:18:07

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:57:18:10 - 00:57:22:06

Cullen

And I think the last thing just to mention quickly, too, is Howard Shore.

00:57:22:12 - 00:57:24:09

Clark

Oh, let's not forget Mr. Stone.

00:57:24:09 - 00:57:27:07

Cullen

Yeah. And Howard Shore is one of my favorite composers.

00:57:27:11 - 00:57:27:18

Speaker 3

And the.

00:57:27:18 - 00:57:28:12

Clark

Ferryman.

00:57:29:09 - 00:57:51:20

Cullen

And the ferryman. And he goes like, just like every other aspect. This movie, Howard Shore, it goes all in on the like fifties. Um, you know, so yeah, B-movie kind of sound. But also again in the more like touching moments, he goes really soft and subtle and gets really nice. And I like how he invokes Swan Lake because of course that was the opening music to Dracula.

00:57:52:08 - 00:58:08:20

Cullen

And so he invokes Swan Lake whenever, whenever Bela Lugosi has like a struggling moment. Yeah, and it's interesting that he didn't. So they actually went with Howard Shore versus Danny Elfman, who was Burton's usual.

00:58:08:20 - 00:58:11:07

Clark

Okay, So Danny Elfman had worked with Burton.

00:58:11:20 - 00:58:12:10

Cullen

Before.

00:58:12:10 - 00:58:12:21

Speaker 3

Right? Pretty much.

00:58:12:22 - 00:58:14:08

Cullen

Every single one of Burton's major.

00:58:14:08 - 00:58:16:08

Clark

And after to Right. Yeah go.

00:58:16:09 - 00:58:20:02

Cullen

Yeah but they had so apparently on returns which was 92.

00:58:20:18 - 00:58:21:10

Speaker 3

They have a fight.

00:58:21:11 - 00:58:40:11

Cullen

The the pressure to get it done made them gave them some strain in their relationship and then that Elfman also did a nightmare before Christmas and they had some creative differences on that. So I think he just decided to go with shore, perhaps take a little vacation, give each other a little break. And then but pretty soon after they went back to working together.

00:58:40:14 - 00:58:44:09

Cullen

Interesting, because because I think Elfman still to this day, scores most of his movie.

00:58:44:11 - 00:58:44:19

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:58:45:20 - 00:58:54:01

Cullen

But yeah. And I like Danny Elfman a lot but I'd say that that Howard Shore was was a perfect choice for this like he really I remember I did a fake magic show at a.

00:58:54:23 - 00:58:55:11

Speaker 3

Wait, wait, wait.

00:58:55:14 - 00:58:57:01

Clark

That's a fake magic show.

00:58:57:01 - 00:58:59:11

Cullen

So it was like a magic show that was intentionally bad.

00:58:59:11 - 00:58:59:21

Speaker 3

Okay.

00:58:59:21 - 00:59:01:12

Cullen

Okay. Like, I would give someone a card.

00:59:01:12 - 00:59:04:07

Speaker 3

And I'm like, I'm like, Would magic is already fake.

00:59:04:16 - 00:59:18:11

Cullen

And I'd be like, Is this your card? And they'd be like, No. And I'd be like, Yeah, that's right. I was kind of playing a fake like David Blaine, kind of like where all my tricks went bad, but I had the entire time. My playlist for the music was, was the Howard Shore theme of this.

00:59:18:11 - 00:59:19:04

Speaker 3

So it's like, okay.

00:59:19:16 - 00:59:23:17

Cullen

So I was like kind of walking across the stage and, you know, doing my thing with that.

00:59:23:17 - 00:59:26:20

Speaker 3

I had a partner, I saw video of this.

00:59:27:06 - 00:59:33:16

Cullen

I don't know, there might actually be something. But then I guess the second song was Abracadabra by Steve Miller.

00:59:33:22 - 00:59:34:12

Speaker 3

Oh, my.

00:59:34:12 - 00:59:35:01

Clark

God.

00:59:35:07 - 00:59:39:02

Cullen

Oh, yeah, that's my that's my Howard Shore connection to the Ed Wood.

00:59:39:09 - 00:59:40:10

Speaker 3

I love it. I love.

00:59:40:10 - 01:00:14:21

Clark

It. Well, wonderful stuff. I mean, I think, you know, I've enjoyed revisiting film. It definitely, like, filled my heart with love for for my fellow filmmakers out there, regardless of success, external success or talent, it's a good reminder that, at least from my perspective, that, you know, we're in this for the families that we create while we do it, and we're in it for the journey and, you know, it's otherwise it's a it's a profoundly small percentage of us that get to work at the level that we aspire to.

01:00:14:22 - 01:00:22:10

Clark

Let's face it, yeah, most filmmakers aspire to work at a level that only a few hundred filmmakers actually ever get to work at.

01:00:23:00 - 01:00:28:03

Cullen

I mean, hey, even if I got to the Ed Wood level and I was remembered in 50 years, I've been happy.

01:00:28:03 - 01:00:30:13

Speaker 3

So yeah, well, there you go.

01:00:30:13 - 01:00:45:12

Clark

I mean, and enjoy the ride while you're doing it, right. Awesome. Well, thanks for picking the film. And as always, I really enjoyed our conversation. Colin, I look forward to next time. I've got to start thinking about what my film will be for our big five.

01:00:45:12 - 01:00:47:05

Cullen

Oh yes, the 50th.

01:00:47:07 - 01:00:48:13

Clark

Dun dun dah.

01:00:48:22 - 01:00:50:00

Speaker 3

So. All right, all right.

01:00:50:04 - 01:01:00:10

Clark

Well, everybody, thank you so much for hanging out with us. We hope that you enjoyed it and we will catch you on the flip side. Until then, bye bye.

Episode - 050 - 50th Special

Clark

Wait. What do I usually. How do I. How do I usually intro this? I can't even.

00:00:13:22 - 00:00:16:04

Cullen

Hello, everybody.

00:00:16:04 - 00:00:31:12

Clark

I love it. Hello, everybody, and welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I am Clark Coffey and with me, as always, is his co-host extraordinaire, Mr. Cullen McFater. What's up, buddy?

00:00:31:13 - 00:00:33:16

Cullen

Yes, Co-host. I'm good. How are you?

00:00:33:19 - 00:00:36:02

Clark

Wait, is that a bad thing? Is cold. No, no, no.

00:00:36:02 - 00:00:42:19

Cullen

No, no. I was laughing. Is there's a there's this Internet show called On Cinema at the Cinema by Tim Heidecker and Greg Turkington.

00:00:42:20 - 00:00:45:07

Clark

Oh, my gosh. I know Tim. I don't know the other guy.

00:00:45:12 - 00:00:49:13

Cullen

It's it's just it's like the best show ever. It's like, been running for like, 12 years now, but.

00:00:49:14 - 00:00:50:05

Clark

Oh, wow.

00:00:50:12 - 00:01:04:12

Cullen

They do basically this like, it's like a parody of, like, the Siskel and Ebert. But when when that kind of thing started happening online and people like it would just be two guys in a on an awful green screen talking about movies trying to be Siskel and Ebert. Yeah. And they're parodying that. And that's kind of what it started out as.

00:01:04:12 - 00:01:15:02

Cullen

Now it's branched off into all this crazy stuff. But oh, my. The the joke is that the one guy who's been hosting it, Greg Turkington, who's been hosting it with Tim Heidecker for 12 years now, is always referred to as the guest host.

00:01:15:06 - 00:01:17:01

Clark

Yeah, hi. I got I.

00:01:17:01 - 00:01:19:01

Cullen

Just popped into my mind when you said co-host.

00:01:19:01 - 00:01:22:01

Clark

Wow, that was one of the longest digressions little.

00:01:22:01 - 00:01:22:14

Cullen

Segways.

00:01:22:16 - 00:01:39:03

Clark

We've ever had and we haven't even gotten through the introduction to the episode yet. But, but I'll have to check that out. And, you know, and as I was introducing you, I felt so bad because I, I introduced myself first and I feel really like full of shame and guilt for that and I apologize.

00:01:39:03 - 00:01:40:10

Cullen

Well, I'll never like, it's.

00:01:40:16 - 00:01:53:15

Clark

So rude, so rude. And I apologize not only to you, but to everybody out there. I feel like I'm a bad role model for everyone. But hey, today's our 50th episode, man. What do you think about that?

00:01:54:12 - 00:01:55:06

Cullen

I think that's insane.

00:01:55:06 - 00:02:01:06

Clark

I can't believe we made it to 50 episodes. You know, I don't even remember when we started doing this, but it was like, didn't we start.

00:02:01:13 - 00:02:02:23

Cullen

Like August 2020 maybe?

00:02:03:11 - 00:02:07:20

Clark

Was it was it I thought it was even was it before COVID or did we do I kind.

00:02:07:20 - 00:02:10:14

Cullen

Of I think we started in COVID. I think we started COVID.

00:02:10:14 - 00:02:17:10

Clark

I mean, look at it like the world has been just like off axis. I feel like everything's been weird. I can't even judge time anymore.

00:02:17:10 - 00:02:25:22

Cullen

I mean, if you think about yeah, if you think about things that you did at the beginning of COVID, sometimes I think about that and I'm like, that was during COVID man went for a long time.

00:02:25:22 - 00:02:48:00

Clark

It's been going on for a long, long time. So but, but we made it. We are at our 50th episode, which is like just blows my mind and I'm it's been like a really fun journey and I'm happy that we've gotten to take it together. It's been really fun to do these. And yeah, that's what we're going to do is mix things up a little bit this time.

00:02:48:00 - 00:03:13:09

Clark

So, you know, when we started off our first handful of episodes, we were we stuck to a really, really small niche of discussing Werner Herzog's masterclass, and we kind of used that as a jumping off point to discuss film and kind of film philosophy. And, you know, it was really Werner Herzog centric and which is where you and I met actually, that that was a long, long time.

00:03:13:09 - 00:03:14:09

Cullen

Ago, 2016.

00:03:14:11 - 00:03:34:00

Clark

Definitely pre-COVID. So that extent, just like my brain just explodes when I think that that was six years ago. Yeah, but we met. Yeah, yeah, we met. Taking that class and like, have it, you know, we had discussions like every couple of weeks and we actually there's a group of us that that still kind of sticks together from that class and that's turned out to be really wonderful.

00:03:34:00 - 00:03:53:02

Clark

And then we kind of shifted into covering a new film and kind of breaking it down, analyzing it, just kind of like talking about the things that interested us about and we kind of been alternating back and forth. You pick a film, I pick a film we've been doing that for, I don't know, now what, ten, 15 episodes, something like that.

00:03:53:15 - 00:04:21:18

Clark

So we thought we might do something fun for the 50th episode where each of us have picked five episodes at five episodes, five movies that are special to us in some way, or that we just wanted to discuss here, or who knows why you picked them and who knows why I picked them. But we picked five each and we're going to kind of like Rapid Fire go back and forth and have kind of like a quick mini discussion about the five films that we picked.

00:04:21:18 - 00:04:43:01

Cullen

I just realized it's actually oddly similar to the was a on my YouTube channel back at the beginning of COVID. Me and three Friends did this show called On our ten minute Filmmaking, and it was like we'd have a topic of discussion every week. And we basically had 2 minutes, two and a half minutes to choose a film and discuss why we thought that that film fit that topic.

00:04:43:01 - 00:04:46:23

Cullen

And it would be like a ten minute episode would be so very quick, Rapid Fire. And I just made that connection.

00:04:46:23 - 00:04:49:17

Clark

Now that I just feel like that's a shameless plug. Colin Is that.

00:04:49:17 - 00:04:51:20

Cullen

Just maybe I go check it out 10 minutes and maybe.

00:04:53:06 - 00:04:54:22

Clark

I feel like it's just a shameless plug.

00:04:55:01 - 00:04:59:01

Cullen

I'll get I'll get .001 cents for every, every watch.

00:04:59:01 - 00:05:13:06

Clark

So yeah, yeah. It'll, it'll be like most residual checks of my actor friends. He'll get like a check for a penny, you know, that's, like, worth less than the paper that it was printed on. All right, well, hey, without further ado, then, let's dive in. Cohen. Yeah. Your first film.

00:05:13:12 - 00:05:24:01

Cullen

Okay, my first. So I tried to pick things that are not super, super niche. I didn't want to, you know, just use them like the movie from 1926 to.

00:05:24:01 - 00:05:27:05

Clark

Show off show off your cinematic file.

00:05:27:05 - 00:05:48:10

Cullen

But but I did also try to choose movies that I think most, perhaps most of the listeners and perhaps you as well, either might not have seen or might not have thought about in a long time. Okay, so this first movie is called Toni Erdmann oh 2016 German Comedy. And I first saw this movie when it came out in theaters at TIFF.

00:05:48:20 - 00:06:08:06

Cullen

This TIFF, the TIFF Theater in Toronto, will usually have like a host of international movies, not just during the festival, but all year round. That's kind of the best place to go. See international stuff in in Toronto and indie stuff as well. And it's directed by Marin de I do, I think, or Ade Okay.

00:06:08:06 - 00:06:09:10

Clark

Adi Yeah.

00:06:09:23 - 00:06:26:21

Cullen

So I apologize if I'm mispronouncing things, but it's essentially this the way that it was pitched to me when we were going to see it with a friend of mine was it's like a German high concept, Mrs. Doubtfire. And it is this, It's like this.

00:06:26:21 - 00:06:29:16

Clark

Wait, wasn't Mrs. Doubtfire already high concept?

00:06:29:16 - 00:06:46:17

Cullen

Yeah, well, I mean, it's so it's about this. It's about this dad who his daughter is like a businesswoman, a really successful businesswoman. But she's incredibly busy and is is in, you know, constantly in meetings and never really has time for him or anything else. And he's this kind of carefree. I think he's like an art teacher at a school.

00:06:47:00 - 00:07:12:22

Cullen

And he's this old German guy and he's really funny and he plays these little characters. But his dog, Vili, as he calls it, winds up dying. And he's like really sad about that. So he decides to go to Bucharest in Romania to his daughter's like this big, you know, pitch thing that she's doing for her company and decides to just go and pretend to be this life coach called named Toni Erdmann.

00:07:13:01 - 00:07:19:21

Cullen

Okay, makes up this title. He puts in these fake teeth that are like these, like those weird teeth that you get at the dollar store for Halloween.

00:07:19:21 - 00:07:22:06

Clark

Like Billy Bob. Like Billy Bob. Yeah. Yeah.

00:07:22:08 - 00:07:37:15

Cullen

He puts in these weird teeth, he has this wig and he just winds up like a showing up at her business meetings and things like that on an uninvited. Or he'll sit in the lobby until she's walking through with a bunch of her, you know, the CEO and this big oil executive. And he'll just kind of walk over and walk along with them.

00:07:37:15 - 00:07:50:23

Cullen

And it's this really, really charming, funny, but incredibly heartfelt movie. You know, it's like a movie that that brings me to the verge of tears. It's also really, really long. It's 162 minutes.

00:07:51:02 - 00:07:51:11

Clark

Okay.

00:07:51:12 - 00:08:11:16

Cullen

Wow. It's this it's this is so everything about it. Every every sentence seems to not fit the last one. It's this, like, nearly three hour epic about this German dad that follows his daughter to Bucharest, Romania, to basically show her the meaning of being a little bit more carefree by dressing up as this funny character named Toni Erdmann.

00:08:12:12 - 00:08:35:00

Cullen

But no, I would totally I mean, it's it really it's an odd movie also for me to love because it kind of goes against a lot of things that I normally really like about a movie in that it's it's very, very like the cinematography is very digital. It's it's not super, you know, it's pretty desaturated that very like digital, black, white and sharp, super.

00:08:35:02 - 00:08:44:03

Clark

Popular when people like when when you had like full frame sensors. Yes. Like reasonable reasonable. Oh gee.

00:08:44:03 - 00:08:46:03

Cullen

It's like noise reduction and dynamic range and.

00:08:46:06 - 00:08:55:01

Clark

You know, reasonable dynamic range. And and like they shot raw and it was almost like there was this weird period of time where it's like, I feel like people just, like, left the raw.

00:08:55:01 - 00:08:58:12

Cullen

Almost like raw. They would they would adjust the contrast a bit. But yeah.

00:08:58:13 - 00:09:07:15

Clark

It was so weird. Yeah. Just to digress for a second, it was like, yeah, it was like, Dude, that's raw footage that's not graded Like, that is not what you were supposed to do, is just.

00:09:07:15 - 00:09:08:00

Cullen

And.

00:09:08:06 - 00:09:08:10

Clark

It.

00:09:08:19 - 00:09:16:22

Cullen

It really, it looks exactly like that. It's shot. It's not like a mockumentary, but it's shot, very mockumentary style and that a lot of it's handheld.

00:09:16:22 - 00:09:17:08

Clark

Okay.

00:09:17:08 - 00:09:32:18

Cullen

Just following the character the way things like that. And so it's not at all the stylistically a movie that I like, like doesn't really fit with any of the other movies that I chose today nor movies that I normally like. But it's incredibly heartfelt. The performances are great.

00:09:32:18 - 00:09:36:05

Clark

I mean, you've you've piqued my interest. I definitely want to check it out. I mean, Oh, yeah.

00:09:36:05 - 00:09:38:11

Cullen

If you've got 3 hours to spare to watch them a year.

00:09:38:17 - 00:09:40:04

Clark

I've always got 3 hours to.

00:09:40:04 - 00:09:45:18

Cullen

Spare, but it's also it's it's it's very bizarre, but it's also really, really, really funny. Like there's.

00:09:45:19 - 00:09:46:19

Clark

A lot of bizarre and.

00:09:46:19 - 00:10:02:16

Cullen

Great there's a lot of great, very subtle kind of German humor in it as well. So it's a laugh out loud movie by any means. I mean, I laugh out loud just cause I love it. So I'm like, Well, you're kooky. Yes, exactly. But no, I'd say that it's definitely a very, um. That's yeah, it's a great movie.

00:10:02:16 - 00:10:03:20

Cullen

That's all I really say. Wow.

00:10:03:20 - 00:10:20:03

Clark

Well, okay, so right off the bat. So you have picked a film that I haven't seen. Not only have I not seen it, I hadn't even heard of it. Now it's possible that I had heard of it and then forgotten about it because we're sitting at, what, six year old film? It was nominated for best Foreign language film at the Academy Awards.

00:10:20:03 - 00:10:20:16

Cullen

Yes, it was.

00:10:21:05 - 00:10:30:12

Clark

And that's probably back at an era of time when I was actually watching the Academy Awards. I haven't seen it in the past couple of years for no other reason than just I'm like, Yeah.

00:10:30:22 - 00:10:32:03

Cullen

Yeah, who cares?

00:10:33:05 - 00:10:46:14

Clark

No other reason than that. But so I probably was kind of, you know, exposed to it, heard about it, something, and I just never kind of, you know, it's like, how many films can a person see? You know, films, sadly, fall through the cracks and you missed them.

00:10:46:15 - 00:10:49:12

Cullen

Especially in theaters. They're not a lot of foreign movies play in theaters and.

00:10:49:18 - 00:10:55:21

Clark

Not here in the States, for sure. Yeah. I mean, you don't get like wide release or even, you know, many release.

00:10:55:22 - 00:10:58:11

Cullen

Of I mean, I was really lucky to see it in theaters, but but yeah.

00:10:58:12 - 00:10:58:19

Clark

I could.

00:10:58:19 - 00:10:59:23

Cullen

Very easily missed it so.

00:10:59:23 - 00:11:19:01

Clark

Well, you're in Canada so you guys are open minded up there than we are down here, so. All right, Well, well, now I'm like, I knew this was going to happen. I feel like a certain amount of shame because, you know, none of my films are even going to be remotely not obvious films.

00:11:19:01 - 00:11:20:04

Cullen

Oh, that's okay.

00:11:20:07 - 00:11:52:12

Clark

So. So because I thought about it, I thought, you know, because when we pick out when we when we pick our films for the regular episodes, I try to kind of like thread the needle of, you know, I don't want to go against my own taste. And I do in many instances have fairly mainstream taste, you know, And so I'm not going to pretend that I'm somebody I'm not and, and pick these, like super obscure, you know, foreign films that three people saw on a Tuesday, five years ago, you know, So I stayed true to myself.

00:11:52:17 - 00:12:15:15

Clark

And basically my criteria was just like, what films have really impacted me? That's kind of like my my main criteria. What films do I love? What films have inspired me when I watch these films usually, or more often when I was younger, when I first saw all these films on my list, it was like I had a sense of awe and amazement and it made me want to be a filmmaker.

00:12:15:15 - 00:12:38:00

Clark

So that's my criteria for this. So the first one on my list is one of the most important films to me as a filmmaker. This film blew my mind in 1994 when it was released, saw it in theater, and it just I mean, it just blew my mind open. And that is Quentin Tarantino's Pulp Fiction.

00:12:38:07 - 00:12:43:09

Cullen

That's funny. I also I remember seeing that as a very young, probably way too young to see this movie.

00:12:43:10 - 00:12:48:23

Clark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You got you had to have been because dude, I was a so I saw this.

00:12:48:23 - 00:12:51:16

Cullen

I didn't see it in theaters, but I remember being shown it very, very young.

00:12:52:00 - 00:13:06:21

Clark

So I saw this this, this came out in May in 94. So I would have been just graduating high school when this film came out. So you had to have been like a toddler, dude?

00:13:06:21 - 00:13:09:00

Cullen

No, I was I wasn't even alive in 94.

00:13:09:00 - 00:13:29:22

Clark

I was going to say, yeah, it's like you're you're you weren't even alive. But this film, I mean, look, I don't I don't need to go into explaining this film because you and everybody else on the planet have already seen this film. So just from a personal perspective, I mean, I this film just blew me away on so many levels and like it did many people when it was released.

00:13:30:18 - 00:14:01:12

Clark

You know, I had seen Reservoir Dogs before. That was that was, you know, I was definitely into cinema. Reservoir Dogs had definitely kind of entered my world. I was familiar with that. But I felt like this film was such an elevation was on such another level. I was just completely captivated by everything about this film. I even I mean, literally, I even I even took took two VCRs and re-edited this film on VCRs in chronological order.

00:14:01:12 - 00:14:03:09

Cullen

I remember how you could do that. Yeah. Yeah.

00:14:03:09 - 00:14:18:22

Clark

So that I could kind of in my own mind as a way to kind of analyze how that non chronicle chronological representation of the story impacted how you perceived it when you watched it. So I literally tried my best because this is in an era before Internet and before, you know.

00:14:18:22 - 00:14:20:06

Cullen

So in pressing play and pause.

00:14:20:09 - 00:14:43:20

Clark

And so I'm getting ready and I just I duped the. Exactly. I duped the tape. And I and so but this film, it was just the writing blew me away. I thought the dialog with some of the best and just I mean, it was just the I guess the best way for me to describe it was that it felt like pure cinema energy, just like shooting off the screen and just piercing my heart and mind and soul.

00:14:43:20 - 00:15:14:13

Clark

It just everything about this film to me screamed, The person who made this loves cinema as much as you and and and it just it's almost like, you know how you walk into a room and you meet somebody and somehow there's like, just this, like, electric connection of like your brains seem to be on the same wavelength and, you know, it's just like, wow, you know, it's like you're, you're the conversation elevates like 15 levels because you're both just on fire.

00:15:14:13 - 00:15:15:10

Cullen

And you're finishing each other.

00:15:15:11 - 00:15:26:08

Clark

Sandwich off. Yeah, there you go. And that's what it felt like when I sat in the audience, when I watched Pulp Fiction, and I just felt like, Holy crap, this.

00:15:26:08 - 00:15:36:13

Cullen

Yeah. I mean, I remember I was probably six or seven when I saw it for the first time, and it was at a friend's house who had an older brother who always showed us.

00:15:36:18 - 00:15:36:21

Clark

That.

00:15:36:23 - 00:15:52:03

Cullen

Older, very violent. Yeah, that older brother where we would watch South Park or we play Gears of War on Xbox along with that. And this was probably the first time I'd seen a movie. I mean, I'd seen a lot of not kids movies. Again, I grew up watching Hitchcock with my dad.

00:15:52:03 - 00:15:52:18

Clark

Yeah, me too.

00:15:52:18 - 00:16:13:21

Cullen

Probably the first time I'd seen that level of, like, visceral violence in a movie. And I remember it was like this. This my parents were never super stingy about what I watched as a kid. They weren't very effective in that way. But I remember like finishing the movie and feeling like I can't tell my parents that I watched this like it was like this.

00:16:14:02 - 00:16:23:00

Cullen

It felt like this, this Nazi like. Exactly. And I was like, it just felt so provocative. And but in a very good way. I mean, but it's so funny.

00:16:23:00 - 00:16:25:01

Clark

Is that how long has it been since you've seen it?

00:16:25:05 - 00:16:32:15

Cullen

Because I think the last time I watched it was when I was in university and first year. So it's been probably probably six or seven years for me.

00:16:32:15 - 00:16:40:02

Clark

I recommend that you watch it again because it's so funny the way you described it and this is the way that it was. It was kind of, you know.

00:16:40:18 - 00:16:42:00

Cullen

Or not marketed, but.

00:16:42:00 - 00:17:04:22

Clark

It was responded as like a very like, Oh my God, it's hyper violent. It's hyper violent. This film came out. It was released very closely with a film that Quentin had written but not directed, which was Natural Born Killers. And of course, Oliver Stone directed that film, and he radically changed the script, such to the point where Quentin Tarantino basically disowns natural born killers.

00:17:04:22 - 00:17:16:21

Clark

But both of those films kind of came out at the same time. And and it was just this like big media kind of, you know, coverage of this hyper violence in these films. But go back and go back and watch Pulp Fiction. It's yeah.

00:17:16:21 - 00:17:17:10

Cullen

I do.

00:17:17:11 - 00:17:17:21

Clark

Actually.

00:17:18:00 - 00:17:18:23

Cullen

Actually violent.

00:17:19:17 - 00:17:28:12

Clark

It's actually and especially when you look at it in the kind of, you know, put it in the context of today's films, it is like surprisingly benign.

00:17:28:16 - 00:17:35:00

Cullen

Yeah, totally anti especially because TV sort of went yeah, Oh yeah. Game of Thrones and all those.

00:17:35:03 - 00:17:35:11

Clark

Breaking.

00:17:35:11 - 00:17:40:03

Cullen

Bad. Like everything, every single episode was trying to provoke you into throwing up or something.

00:17:40:04 - 00:17:42:02

Clark

I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.

00:17:42:02 - 00:17:43:19

Cullen

For sure. But no, I could pick.

00:17:43:19 - 00:18:04:22

Clark

Yeah, yeah. So that it's so it's super obvious but it just, and it's a film that to this, to this day I can, I can plop it into the Blu ray player and I, I mean I'll sit down and I'll watch the whole film. I just absolutely love it. I think there's a tremendous amount of heart in that film that it feels like a very personal film to me.

00:18:05:07 - 00:18:15:09

Clark

It is a you know, for someone who loves cinema, it feels like such a beautiful love letter to cinema. So yeah, there's my pick number one Pulp Fiction.

00:18:15:20 - 00:18:38:04

Cullen

And I will say as a quick aside, that even though some of my movies are foreign films and you know, they're not super obvious picks, they are all, at least in my top ten movies, I would say like they're all movies that have influenced me greatly. So definitely when I was choosing these was not just again, trying to I Oh, I regular.

00:18:38:05 - 00:18:39:07

Clark

Yeah, I know. These are all.

00:18:39:07 - 00:18:41:11

Cullen

Movies that were very that are still very.

00:18:41:13 - 00:18:46:20

Clark

Influential, just trying to look cool. I know I look I've known you long enough. I just get in. I'm just and.

00:18:46:20 - 00:19:15:16

Cullen

I say that I say that as my next pick. I think I mean, there's a better chance that you've seen this one. But also, I wouldn't be shocked if you hadn't. But this is a much better known foreign film called Caché by Michael Hanukkah and and it is Caché is the French word for hidden. And it is this really, really interestingly done another one that's not necessarily my pick, but I've stolen so much from this movie in terms of like things that I've done in the way I shoot.

00:19:15:16 - 00:19:41:08

Cullen

But it's essentially about this guy who receives a VHS tape at his at his front door one day, and it's just a like three hour recording of the front of his house and the whole movie is shot. The opening shot of the movie is, is that tape okay. So you get the opening credits over the tape and then you and then you cut out to them watching it and you realize, oh, that opening shot was actually the tape that they're that they received.

00:19:42:08 - 00:20:00:10

Cullen

And then the entire movie, though, is shot like like that. It's always the camera's always still very observational and just looking at a scene and you never know if what you're watching is a tape or if you're watching an actual scene. And so it builds paranoia. So I really.

00:20:00:23 - 00:20:16:07

Clark

Have heard of it. I've heard of this film, but I have not seen it. I have definitely heard of it. And you mentioned it. Now I'm like, Ooh, I'm making a note. I really do want to watch this film. And I have wanted to watch it in the past. And you have now like reminded me, I really need to see this.

00:20:16:07 - 00:20:16:23

Clark

But yeah.

00:20:17:07 - 00:20:38:07

Cullen

And again, it's one of those movies that so it's stylized, but not in a, in a, in a way that, that shows off. It's stylized in a way that serves the purpose of the movie so incredibly well. I again, I've stolen so much from from this movie in the way that I've shot scenes and it I think it features to me the most shocking scene.

00:20:38:07 - 00:20:39:06

Clark

I don't say a word.

00:20:39:16 - 00:20:41:03

Cullen

I won't say what it is, but please.

00:20:41:03 - 00:20:41:19

Clark

Don't ruin that.

00:20:42:01 - 00:21:04:14

Cullen

I won't, I won't. I won't talk about what? What happens where. Yeah, but I will say that that like if you if you want to talk about effectively shocking effectively Yeah. Putting provocative imagery on on screen that this this movie I mean you'll know it when you see it. Yeah this movie does it impeccably well and you know like Monica a lot I think that he's a great director otherwise.

00:21:04:22 - 00:21:21:07

Cullen

Yeah but I do think that this is is his best and also unarguably the one that has influenced me the most in terms of like the way just just the way that he sets up some of these scenes is so remarkable. And I won't say much more than that because it's really a great thriller that I would recommend.

00:21:21:07 - 00:21:26:00

Cullen

You know, everyone check out, even if you're not super into like foreign films, it's it's really, really remarkable.

00:21:26:04 - 00:21:36:05

Clark

Well, I appreciate you reminding me that I want to check this out. But, you know, so, you know, I am curious, though. I mean, tell me a little bit more about, you know, how did you meet this film?

00:21:36:05 - 00:21:54:07

Cullen

Like what it was actually was it was similarly it was in when I was in first year at U of T, I took a third year cinema studies course because the first year one I talked to my professor in the first year one and I was like, I need to, I need to skip this class essentially because I like all the movies.

00:21:54:07 - 00:22:08:08

Cullen

I'd seen everything. I still took the class and I did the exam and all that, but I was like, Is there any way that you can just kind of write a letter to get me into the upper your courses? Because normally you have to take courses beforehand and get into them that way? Yeah. And he was like, Yeah, yeah, I'll see what I can do.

00:22:08:08 - 00:22:27:16

Cullen

And so I wound up getting into like a second and third year course. So thank God for that. I did my only film education that year wasn't just, you know, going through the top ten IMDB movies. Yeah. And so this was either I can remember was in the second year or third year course, but it was such an interest.

00:22:27:16 - 00:22:44:16

Cullen

Like, I just remember from the moment that started playing, we luckily my school had this really big theater like movie theater, and so I was able to see a lot of movies theatrically, technically, theatrically. And I remember just like from the second it started, I thought it was so captivating in how.

00:22:45:03 - 00:22:47:11

Clark

It almost you are captivating.

00:22:47:23 - 00:23:09:14

Cullen

Making subjects, making emotional, but just again, the way that you never know. Like I think a really good thriller makes the audience as paranoid and and scared as the characters are. And this truly does that because you never know again, if you're watching a scene from the movie or a tape that is voyeur that's being that is being filmed.

00:23:09:14 - 00:23:15:12

Cullen

So it's just it's, it's that that's really all that I can say about it without getting it. Yeah.

00:23:15:12 - 00:23:15:19

Clark

Yeah.

00:23:15:20 - 00:23:20:10

Cullen

Spoilers and don't want to spoil it for anybody but I would 100% recommend watching it. It's not.

00:23:20:19 - 00:23:21:04

Clark

Super.

00:23:21:04 - 00:23:25:04

Cullen

Long. It's only it's only it's under 2 hours by 2 minutes. So um.

00:23:25:06 - 00:23:43:17

Clark

Yeah I, well, I thank you for recommending that because I'm always looking for, you know, this is almost like I feel like I'm getting some good recommendations from you. So, yeah, this has been on my list. I have forgotten about it. And because I'm always, like, adding movies to my list, but then, like, things kind of fall off, you know, again, there's just like, only so much time, you know?

00:23:44:01 - 00:23:56:02

Clark

And I have this weird thing where I love rewatching films. So sadly, it's like, not only is there not enough time for me to watch every film that I want to watch, but then, like, for some reason I'm compelled to watch some films multiple times.

00:23:56:02 - 00:24:00:03

Cullen

Oh, don't worry. I like rewatching. I just rewatched the whole Ocean's trilogy. Yeah. Oh.

00:24:00:13 - 00:24:10:17

Clark

Nice. If you haven't already listened to Soderbergh's commentary track. Yes, the first one. Yeah. He's actually a very lucid and entertaining commentary giver.

00:24:11:20 - 00:24:12:18

Cullen

Yeah. Yeah, he's great.

00:24:12:18 - 00:24:41:12

Clark

Yeah. Yep. All right, so on to my number two. So again, this is so unbelievably commonplace. I feel like if this were a video game and your character had just opened like a, like a treasure chest thing or whatever, this would be like the common, you know, like rare. It's not legendary. It's not it's like super common is 1980 two's Ridley Scott's Blade Runner.

00:24:41:17 - 00:24:44:01

Cullen

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've talked about this before, too.

00:24:44:02 - 00:24:46:03

Clark

So, yeah, we haven't done an episode on it, so.

00:24:46:06 - 00:24:46:12

Cullen

Yeah.

00:24:46:17 - 00:25:06:04

Clark

So and again, it's like, look, I know that this is, you know, it's everybody in their brother knows about this film, has seen this film by now, especially by now. But, you know, when I saw this film, that wasn't really the case when I first saw this film, I saw this when I was probably like about a freshman or so in high school.

00:25:06:04 - 00:25:27:01

Clark

And I saw this film of the worst way that you could possibly see it. And I actually ended up really not connecting to this film. I ended up taking it a lot. So it was the theatrical cut. BE It was on VHS, see, it was on a like a 15 inch CRT screen. So obviously that's four by three.

00:25:27:01 - 00:25:27:19

Cullen

Your bubble screen.

00:25:27:19 - 00:25:50:21

Clark

So all of the things that make this film great, it's production design. It's cinematography was so stripped from the film when I saw it, because I saw it in such a horrible way. But even more than that, I was I felt like the film was tremendously cold. I felt like it was a it was not a an emotionally connecting story.

00:25:50:21 - 00:26:12:03

Clark

I didn't like on every level. I didn't like it. And I actually a good buddy of mine was like the film. And he we watched it at his place. He's like, Oh, you know, I got this huge check this out, and I really just didn't connect with it. Now fast forward four or five years later and I'm a freshman in college and it was one of our like first, you know, like film one or one whatever.

00:26:12:03 - 00:26:28:12

Clark

And so I got to see this film in a theater. Now, it was laserdisc, which is like that was the best thing that they had back when I was a little kid. So it's still like 40, but at least it's P and at least it's, you know, it's a lot better than VHS. And I saw it on a big screen and I was blown away.

00:26:28:12 - 00:26:54:00

Clark

I was and this was still the theatrical cut and I was freaking blown away. And then, of course, you know, now I've seen, you know, I've got the 4K final cut without the, you know, narration. And I mean, and it's just outstandingly beautiful. But this film is the film that really made me understand the importance of a few aspects of filmmaking.

00:26:54:05 - 00:27:20:01

Clark

Mm hmm. Production design. I really had never seriously considered the impact and the storytelling possibilities with production design before this film. I mean, I just and I still every time I watch a science fiction film, a frame every time I watch any film, frankly, I'm like hoping I'm praying that the production design is even half, even a quarter, even a 10th of the the quality of this film.

00:27:20:09 - 00:27:44:22

Clark

Mm hmm. And sadly, they very rarely are. But yeah, but I mean, it's just you can watch this film a hundred times and the amount of detail and storytelling that's in the production design of this film of every frame. I mean, it's just and then you combine that with the just masterful cinematography. I mean, it, you know. Jordan Cronin, Worst shot the film.

00:27:44:22 - 00:28:01:15

Clark

But of course, Ridley Scott is like right there, you know, working so closely. You know, I mean, Ridley, in his own way, is a really outstanding cinematographer. And I mean, I feel like he is basically a production designer, you know, almost as much or more as he is a director, frankly.

00:28:01:15 - 00:28:02:02

Cullen

Yeah, Yeah.

00:28:02:03 - 00:28:28:13

Clark

So you really get a sense of his fingerprints all over both aspects of this film. But just every Vangelis score. Oh, God, yeah. And it is my favorite score of any film all time ever. Full stop bar none, period. I have, like, every version of this score you could ever like, you know, all the bootleg cuts where it's like, you know, every single little piece of music that Vangelis ever did.

00:28:28:18 - 00:28:30:08

Clark

That's like, not in the original.

00:28:30:15 - 00:28:32:13

Cullen

Right? Yeah. The kind of complete recordings.

00:28:32:13 - 00:29:00:07

Clark

Yeah. Yep. I mean, you name it, dude, I've got it. I am just a combination of all these factors. And now I feel like with the narration removed, I feel like the story is also moving and well-told as well. And it's a very it's actually a very human and warm story. So things that I've missed, you know, and, and I did get to see it in Los Angeles on a big screen theatrical release film a couple of years ago.

00:29:00:07 - 00:29:02:07

Clark

And I was and I was just it was just.

00:29:02:07 - 00:29:08:01

Cullen

I've never gotten to see it on film, but I've seen it in theaters. I got to see it in a 4K rerelease.

00:29:08:06 - 00:29:08:13

Clark

Yeah.

00:29:08:16 - 00:29:09:17

Cullen

So cut. So.

00:29:09:23 - 00:29:25:06

Clark

So yeah. So that's it's it's just one of my all time favorite films. It's it's a film that I go back to, you know, if I ever get a one inspiration on production design or inspiration on cinematography, I go back to this film. I just I just absolutely adore this film.

00:29:25:17 - 00:29:36:18

Cullen

Yeah, it's great. And so my next one is better known. It's by a probably a a director you might have heard of one or two times. Spielberg Oh, wait, who's that?

00:29:36:18 - 00:29:37:02

Clark

What?

00:29:38:07 - 00:29:58:04

Cullen

But now I also wanted to choose four for Spielberg. This is a movie. This is one of my favorite Spielberg movies and definitely my favorite of his 1941 this century. 1941. Yeah, but I and I think it's so often overlooked when people discuss him. And I think that that it really is is one of his best ones.

00:29:58:14 - 00:30:00:06

Clark

Munich was.

00:30:00:09 - 00:30:00:20

Cullen

Alive.

00:30:00:21 - 00:30:02:21

Clark

I was not expecting that.

00:30:03:05 - 00:30:07:14

Cullen

Really? Yeah. I really love Munich. I think that it's. Oh, please.

00:30:07:14 - 00:30:07:19

Clark

Do.

00:30:07:19 - 00:30:32:15

Cullen

Tell. Not only is it to me a movie that really asks such an interesting question of like politics and inherited politics and why people believe the things that they do and like, but who's really benefiting from those beliefs and all that sort of thing? Yeah, but I think that it's also him like, like every single shot in this movie is, is just like Spielberg at his at his A-game on his part.

00:30:32:16 - 00:30:51:11

Cullen

Like you see some of these bits where it'll be a really slow zoom out from someone standing on a balcony into a car window that has a reflection of a character walking over to the car, who then gets into the car and then we go up and follow the car door open, which then leads us to a car driving by and we see the next character going into that car.

00:30:51:11 - 00:31:11:22

Cullen

And it's like every single shot is so insanely well composed. It's just like the why I think one of the best blocked movies in the world, John Williams, who does the score for it, does something that's really, really remarkable and interesting and not very. John Williams There's no like big brass or or anything like that. It's all very low key kind of music.

00:31:12:04 - 00:31:12:14

Clark

Yeah.

00:31:13:02 - 00:31:30:17

Cullen

The cast is fantastic. Eric Bana and Daniel Craig and Kieran Hynes among so many others that are that are really great. I think Johannes Kaminski does an incredibly wonderful job. It's it's his typical beach bleached bypass look that was really popular for him back in that almost.

00:31:30:17 - 00:31:31:02

Clark

Deliberate.

00:31:31:02 - 00:32:10:08

Cullen

Norton report and Saving Private Ryan and all that. Yeah but it also I think looks looks incredible. It captures like I think it is the best seventies paranoid like political thriller that is was made outside of the seventies. Wow it's it it combines all the things I love about the seventies paranoid you know political thriller like the conversation or All the President's Men and just kind of turns them up and amps them up and you know, so it's a it's a movie that not only is do I think that the that the the idea and the themes are really pertinent and you know all the more relevant today.

00:32:10:08 - 00:32:28:03

Cullen

But also it's a movie that I think is so stylish and really to me proves why Spielberg is is that the Echelon that he is in film history. And I always point to this movie whenever somebody says that he hasn't made a good movie since, like, you know, the nineties or whatever, I'm gonna go watch Munich, which I also disagree with.

00:32:28:03 - 00:32:34:16

Cullen

I think that I think it bar a few I think most of Spielberg's are at least good Yeah.

00:32:35:13 - 00:32:38:08

Clark

Well he's the victim of his own success Yeah right Yeah it's.

00:32:38:08 - 00:32:39:00

Cullen

Very much yeah.

00:32:39:00 - 00:32:48:02

Clark

It's kind of like the Rolling Stones. It's like after a while, you're so good for so long that people take you for granted. And. And it's like you know. Yeah.

00:32:48:02 - 00:32:53:21

Cullen

Whereas if somebody else directed one of the movies that he's made in the past 20 years, they would be like, Oh, who is this new guy?

00:32:53:21 - 00:33:12:03

Clark

Yeah, exactly. Sometimes you can just be the victim of your own success. Well, that's interesting. So you've totally caught me off guard. So I definitely have seen this film. I watched this film when it was released. I'm also, you know, a fan of Spielberg. I mean, especially having grown up when he was really in his heyday. You know, he made some of my favorite movies as a child.

00:33:13:05 - 00:33:38:19

Clark

So I But I'm surprised. Yeah, I'm surprised at this choice. I have to I do have to admit that I don't remember much about the film. You've inspired me to to watch it again, to rewatch it, but I do not remember being particularly, you know, moved or impressed. But, you know, a lot of times I, I, my, my like set and setting is so vital for my enjoyment of a film.

00:33:39:04 - 00:34:00:00

Clark

And I do remember I do remember watching the film, though. I remember watching this film, like with a couple roommates, like my roommate had rented it on DVD and we were like hanging out watching it. And I think it was like I was distracted and, you know, people were talking a little bit, you know, So it was like not an ideal viewing situation for me.

00:34:00:06 - 00:34:02:18

Clark

And I think my head was only kind of half way in it.

00:34:03:02 - 00:34:04:12

Cullen

Yes. Yeah, that makes sense.

00:34:04:14 - 00:34:13:12

Clark

And and so I definitely, you know, your praises, you know, hearing your praises of this film now makes me want to go rewatch this film.

00:34:13:12 - 00:34:24:19

Cullen

And it wasn't the it wasn't the first time that I'd seen it, but I did actually get a chance to see this in 35 millimeter as well. Yeah. Which I again, I think it's so funny that 12 years ago that wouldn't have been special because everything was.

00:34:24:19 - 00:34:26:04

Clark

I know. Yeah, Yeah, exactly.

00:34:26:04 - 00:34:33:10

Cullen

But being able to see it these days. Yeah, it makes me miss it that much more when you could just go to a movie theater and it was, it was projected on film, but it's.

00:34:33:10 - 00:34:36:20

Clark

Like, it's like, Do you want to know a secret? Every movie I ever saw at a.

00:34:36:20 - 00:34:54:10

Cullen

Theater, I mean, even even as a kid, until I was until I was 12 years old, every single thing I saw was was was projected on film. But but now I would definitely, you know, if you if if you haven't seen this movie because it's not I wouldn't say it's like any of Spielberg's movies are necessarily lesser known.

00:34:54:15 - 00:34:58:21

Cullen

Yeah yeah I would say in his filmography, this one is definitely one that's talked about less.

00:34:59:01 - 00:34:59:08

Clark

Yeah.

00:34:59:18 - 00:35:13:14

Cullen

If you haven't seen it, I would recommend seeing it. If you haven't watched it for a while and you remember, I also agreed that when I the first time I ever saw this movie, I wasn't thrilled with it. And but upon I've seen it probably, you know, five or six times at this point.

00:35:14:18 - 00:35:16:05

Clark

It's grown on you every time.

00:35:16:05 - 00:35:42:15

Cullen

Every time I've watched it again and again, I've liked it more and more. And especially like even if you don't, you're not interested in the like, the politics of it or anything like that, which was were controversial at the time as well. Um, that just the craftsmanship behind this movie is, is like, you know, incredible, you know, just pay attention to the way they craft each scene that he blocks, each scene the way that you know it's it really again, proves why he's just such a filmmaker.

00:35:42:15 - 00:35:46:22

Cullen

On another level. And yeah that was that's why it was my my third pick.

00:35:47:06 - 00:36:10:10

Clark

Okay, fantastic. I had a hunch there was going to be a Spielberg flick in here. I actually I thought maybe there would be, like, you know, three quarters of this was going to be Spielberg from you. But no. Well, I again, I'm excited to go back and take a look at that. All right. So my number three, still not an obscure film, but I would say probably less seen than my previous picks thus far.

00:36:10:17 - 00:36:15:14

Clark

And that is Bob Fosse's 79. All that jazz.

00:36:15:23 - 00:36:18:03

Cullen

Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that one.

00:36:18:03 - 00:36:35:14

Clark

So I think we've talked about this one before. We've not done an episode on it, but know this one I did not see. I was three years old when it was theatrically, theatrically released, so I did not see this in the theater. As a matter of fact, I didn't even this of my own accord the first time I watched it.

00:36:35:14 - 00:36:55:08

Clark

I am not a fan of musicals. I never have been. And I look, I just you know, some people love musicals. Some people don't take musicals. I just have never really connected much to musicals. And yes, I have seen, you know, I've kind of been forced to sit through a handful of musicals. So it's not that I haven't seen any.

00:36:56:04 - 00:37:08:16

Clark

I just really generally it's a it's a genre of film that I just don't usually gravitate towards. It just doesn't usually connect me. It's not I love music, I love film. You think maybe I might like that too? I generally just don't.

00:37:09:03 - 00:37:11:03

Cullen

There are a lot of bad musicals too.

00:37:11:03 - 00:37:13:22

Clark

Yeah, well, there are a lot of bad films, pure.

00:37:13:22 - 00:37:14:16

Cullen

General, but.

00:37:14:16 - 00:37:24:23

Clark

Yes, then there are a lot of bad musicals. But even musicals that people claim to, you know, say they're wonderful. And yeah, but I am going to give Spielberg's West Side Story a stab, though. I'm going to check it out.

00:37:24:23 - 00:37:26:00

Cullen

I haven't. I haven't seen it.

00:37:26:00 - 00:37:37:03

Clark

Yeah, I've got a screener. I've got a screener for SAG-AFTRA Awards. So finally they started doing those more online so I can actually watch it in HD as opposed to they send out like.

00:37:37:07 - 00:37:38:04

Cullen

A DVD right now.

00:37:38:04 - 00:37:57:01

Clark

Still, they still send out DVDs. And like people haven't watched four AP DVDs in like 15 years. Guys, what in the world are you doing? Hey, if anybody out there is listening from SAG-AFTRA, will you please, like, get with 20, 21 or two or whatever year it is this year? I mean, who in the hell watches DVDs send out Blu rays people?

00:37:57:01 - 00:38:24:14

Clark

Okay, but back to this. So? So I'm not a fan of musicals, but this movie totally blew my socks off, man. I first time I saw this film was in college in a film class. And I remember going into it being like, Oh God, we got to watch it. I have to watch a musical. God sucks. And dude, it was just from the beginning because I was like, I was like, Wait, Roy Schneider, Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

00:38:24:17 - 00:38:39:18

Clark

Roy Scheider from Jaws. Like, what in the hell is he doing in a in a musical? The dude can't dance. He can't sing. What is going on here? And I just was like, and then from that point on, I don't know what it is, but it felt like it was almost like the anti musical.

00:38:39:18 - 00:38:42:08

Cullen

Yeah, it's and it's so stylish and kinetic.

00:38:42:08 - 00:39:01:01

Clark

And and and it was just and then it was like I actually like the songs I actually like the music. I thought the characters were compelling that got me interested in Fozzie. I didn't even know anything about Bob Fosse before that and the impact that he had on dance and choreography and that this was like autobiographical and the whole act where he's like dying.

00:39:01:09 - 00:39:24:23

Clark

I mean, I like, I was just like, I just absolutely loved this film. I just feel like it's it's a beautiful film, I think. And now having kind of gone through, you know, life, a little bit of a life of performance myself, I've never done musical theater, but I have definitely done a decent amount of theater. I've been on stages in front of audiences.

00:39:24:23 - 00:40:03:10

Clark

I've auditioned before. I, you know, I know what rehearsal is like. I know what being a performer is like a bit. And that life. It's just interesting to see somebody take on that kind of lifestyle. But just everything about this film, I absolutely love this meditation on death and this whole third act to me is just like so extraordinary, the different numbers as he's going through these stages of denial and then acceptance of his own mortality, he just speaks to something that I'm personally like kind of obsessed with a little bit, maybe too much.

00:40:03:20 - 00:40:24:22

Clark

But but yeah, it's just it's a film that I go back to every every couple of years. I'll watch it. There's a great addition out on Criterion Collection, and I'm just it's just a really moving film to me. It has like stuck in my head ever since the first time I saw it in college. I think. I think Roy Scheider is fantastic.

00:40:25:17 - 00:40:48:18

Clark

Jessica Lange is just angelic and Reinking, who of course was like a protege of Fosse's, and I think they had a relationship too. Like she's just fantastic in this film. Her dad. I mean, I'm not even like really big into kind of like dance or anything, but I'm just like, mesmerized by Fosse's style of choreography. And this film, the Dance is just exquisite.

00:40:49:02 - 00:40:49:19

Clark

There you go.

00:40:50:16 - 00:40:56:13

Cullen

It's funny because my next pick, it's not a musical, but it's also a dance movie.

00:40:56:13 - 00:40:57:06

Clark

Oh, okay.

00:40:57:17 - 00:41:06:10

Cullen

So this one is a movie that I think is is both the best dance movie of all time. One of the best documentaries of all time.

00:41:06:10 - 00:41:08:01

Clark

Break into Electric Boogaloo.

00:41:08:01 - 00:41:22:09

Cullen

Exactly. Break. Yeah. That hospital scene looks like lady just dancing. Oh, and I think it is the best 3D movie of all time. Oh, whoa! Says Vendors 2011 documentary Pina.

00:41:22:18 - 00:41:24:11

Clark

Okay, this is. I haven't seen.

00:41:24:11 - 00:41:50:09

Cullen

It. It's all about the the contemporary dance choreography. Pina Bausch, who was a dance choreographer, really famous one who is I actually don't a ton about her, funnily enough, because this movie is not just a documentary about her. It's not it hardly goes into Talking heads or anything like that. It's not that at all. It's literally just her dances and these these incredible productions of her dances.

00:41:50:09 - 00:41:50:16

Cullen

All.

00:41:50:19 - 00:41:52:01

Clark

What was the name of the film again?

00:41:52:07 - 00:42:16:09

Cullen

Pina Pie and a Okay. From 2011 and it's shot in 3D. You can get obviously two D versions, but I would 100% if you ever have the chance to watch this movie in 3D, then go for it, because it is it is the first time. I'm not big on 3D. There are very few movies that I think are are interesting in 3D, and one of them is, is Dial M for Murder, which is actually shot in 3D.

00:42:16:11 - 00:42:20:17

Clark

Another one is surprisingly Verner Herzog's cave of the have gotten.

00:42:20:17 - 00:42:42:20

Cullen

Exactly. And inventors and Herzog are both contemporaries there they they both were part of the German kind of new wave. Yes but it is the the way that this movie is blocked like it's blocked like it is this incredible, you know, almost like a Bergman film where there's these incredible senses, like this incredible sense of depth that's used with the 3D.

00:42:42:20 - 00:42:58:19

Cullen

And even if you don't get to see it in 3D, I would really recommend watching it either way. Yeah, because the camerawork is is remarkable. I'm not a dance person at all. I can't dance, nor do I. You know, I've seen Swan Lake and stuff and. Yeah, but I've never really been like I'm not like a guy that's super into dance.

00:42:58:19 - 00:42:59:09

Clark

Right, Right.

00:42:59:21 - 00:43:02:08

Cullen

But this will really make you, you know.

00:43:03:09 - 00:43:04:09

Clark

Appreciate it.

00:43:04:14 - 00:43:07:05

Cullen

It'll make you a dance person for. For an hour and a half.

00:43:07:15 - 00:43:08:08

Clark

Yeah. Wow.

00:43:08:08 - 00:43:32:06

Cullen

And it's, it's. I just like, again, it's so hard to describe because there's no plot to it. It's just it's just I think it's three or four of her most famous pieces. Okay. But it's not her. Like, it's not just recordings of the the performances. It's like they're out in, like parks going through trees. One of them is like on a beach, one of them is on a stage, but the stage is covered in sand and the lighting is remarkable.

00:43:32:06 - 00:43:57:23

Cullen

The cinematography is remarkable. Van Benders direction is remarkable. Like, it's like if I actually have a job. I was supposed to do the job last year, Riko would cancel it. Where I'm basically doing a virtual dance recital with this dance school near me. And I showed them this and I was like, This is if you want to do something that's remarkable and that is made for film, like dance made for film, as opposed to just filming a stage while they dance around on it.

00:43:57:23 - 00:44:14:19

Cullen

I was like, Watch this and choreograph like this and use the camera. The way that this movie uses the camera, where the camera is part of the dancing, where it's it's like part of and that's one of the things that makes the 3D so remarkable, too. But yeah, I would I just you know, this one will be a little bit of a shorter one just because there's not a lot of plot to go on.

00:44:14:19 - 00:44:15:02

Clark

Yeah.

00:44:15:20 - 00:44:34:16

Cullen

But I would 100% recommend if you have the chance to watch this movie. It's not available in too many places, but if you if you find it, watch it, spend an evening watching it, and if by nothing else, you'll be blown away by the direction and the cinematography in it. And again, the 3D is incredible, but I know that that's a little bit harder to find.

00:44:34:19 - 00:44:55:06

Clark

Yeah, Yeah, that's a little hard to replicate. Well, mean, it sounds intriguing and I'll, I'll put that to my list too. And this is a film that again I haven't seen, I am familiar with. I feel like I have the, the kind of the poster is iconic and I feel like I've I have seen that somewhere and I feel like I have heard of that at some point, but I have not watched it.

00:44:55:22 - 00:45:04:06

Clark

But it sounds intriguing. I hope I'll add that to the list then. So wow, I'm only one out of four so far. 25.

00:45:04:11 - 00:45:07:10

Cullen

You will see my next one. You have a chance. I think you might have seen my next one.

00:45:07:12 - 00:45:11:14

Clark

I, I think there's a there's a possibility that you've seen my next one.

00:45:12:06 - 00:45:12:15

Cullen

We shall.

00:45:12:15 - 00:45:33:22

Clark

See. It's. Yeah, you know, I know you watch a lot of films, so unlike many people, you have maybe a better chance. Not many people saw this film. It didn't do very well at the box office. It's pretty much, you know, and it's really hard to find today. Now, strangely, they did make a couple of sequels.

00:45:34:06 - 00:45:35:08

Cullen

So it's just.

00:45:35:08 - 00:45:49:13

Clark

Weird because they don't usually make sequels for films that are so obscure. But what are you going to do? So my next film, and I think this is my fourth film is 1980 Fives, Bob's and Maggie's Back to the Future.

00:45:49:14 - 00:45:54:21

Cullen

Oh, was the indie film right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:45:54:21 - 00:46:20:13

Clark

So, I mean, it couldn't be more different than, you know, your last film I be talk about like going from one end of the spectrum to the other. But look, I get it. This is, this is as Hollywood studio mainstream, a movie as you can possibly pick. I get it. I know, I know, but talk to the 19 year old Clark and see if he gives a damn about any of that.

00:46:20:21 - 00:46:27:05

Clark

Because when I was in the theater and I saw this film, it filled my heart with or.

00:46:27:12 - 00:46:29:02

Cullen

Mm. And Oh yeah.

00:46:29:06 - 00:46:47:10

Clark

And that is, that's, I mean I've, well I don't know what else you can say. I was so captivated like so many other kids in that era and like so many people who've seen the film since, I was just absolutely mesmerized, captivated from every.

00:46:47:10 - 00:46:48:16

Cullen

Kid wants to be Marty McFly.

00:46:48:21 - 00:47:22:03

Clark

That this the script is is tight there is if you want a study set ups and payoffs and story then you you can't do better than this script. It is just an extremely efficient, well-told story. It is. So it is just shot with absolute technical excellence. And, you know, so much of the technical side of filmmaking special effects were pioneered with this film and with its sequel, especially Back to the Future, to pioneered some extraordinary special effects.

00:47:22:03 - 00:47:26:00

Clark

And so that part of me is, is super interested in these films.

00:47:26:08 - 00:47:29:08

Cullen

And it's really funny. ZEMECKIS It's a really yeah.

00:47:29:18 - 00:47:43:22

Clark

It's really a funny movie. It's the pacing is perfect. It's I mean, I could go on and on and on, but, I mean, my my alarm tone on my phone is that the title sequence, the opening, you know.

00:47:44:06 - 00:47:44:22

Cullen

Literally.

00:47:45:19 - 00:47:53:04

Clark

No, no, the oh, gosh, it's the it's the it's the God. It's like the big sweeping.

00:47:53:04 - 00:47:54:11

Cullen

Oh, the brass up, you know.

00:47:54:13 - 00:47:55:02

Clark

Yeah.

00:47:55:13 - 00:47:56:10

Cullen

Yeah, yeah.

00:47:56:11 - 00:47:57:00

Clark

Yeah, yeah.

00:47:57:00 - 00:48:02:11

Cullen

That and it was, it was my go to Halloween costume for like three years straight.

00:48:03:01 - 00:48:07:09

Clark

I love it. I could totally see that the mustache does. It doesn't work now. You'd have to.

00:48:07:10 - 00:48:09:02

Cullen

This was back in high school but Yeah.

00:48:09:02 - 00:48:11:09

Clark

Get you get you like a big puffy vest. You know.

00:48:11:09 - 00:48:13:22

Cullen

I've got I mean, it's over in my closet right now, so.

00:48:14:04 - 00:48:41:22

Clark

It was awesome. So I, you know, so. So yeah, I mean, look, everybody's seen the film. I don't need to go into it, but, you know, I think Zemeckis as a director is often overlooked when cinephiles kind of talk about directors because, you know, he definitely makes mainstream films. A lot of people will laugh and joke about films like Forrest Gump, But, you know, he is he has really pushed the technical boundary of filmmaking.

00:48:42:18 - 00:49:07:01

Clark

He's he's a pioneer. And I think that's really that's worth looking at. And he's made some really, I think, extraordinary films, some really interesting films. This, I think, stands at the very zenith of his his achievement. But Back to the Future is just one of those films where as a kid, I'm just sitting in the seat and I mean and I'm just like, just completely experiencing, ah, yeah, an hour and a half.

00:49:07:01 - 00:49:24:02

Cullen

I was, was one of my favorites as a kid, too. I'm still is. Yeah. I mean, I think the thing is too, that there's so many people who are kind of naysayers about popular cinema because it's like they feel like if they enjoy something that the bulk of people also enjoy it, that there's, there's, there's somehow less exclusive.

00:49:24:03 - 00:49:24:16

Clark

Yep. Yeah.

00:49:25:00 - 00:49:41:21

Cullen

But there is a very there's a big reason why these movies are famous and popular and it's not because they're bad. Yep it's it's, it's a masterclass in that era of, of like that. I call it kind of the Amblin era. Even though Amblin wasn't involved in all of these movies. But. Well, of.

00:49:41:21 - 00:49:43:20

Clark

Course. But Amblin did produce this, though.

00:49:43:20 - 00:50:07:17

Cullen

Yes. Yes. Producing it was. Yeah. Yeah. But it's one of those things that it's it's like it's just a masterclass in really accessible cinema, but at the same time, really, really high quality, you know, it's almost and I think the value there is that it almost introduces people who otherwise wouldn't see such like high quality cinema to what that can be like.

00:50:07:22 - 00:50:11:16

Cullen

Yeah, it's almost like a bridge into perhaps a more obscure.

00:50:12:00 - 00:50:12:17

Clark

That's me.

00:50:12:22 - 00:50:14:09

Cullen

You know, making. Yeah, that's exactly.

00:50:14:09 - 00:50:34:10

Clark

I mean, I grew up on Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Back to the Future. I'm E.T. I grew up on these films, but. But that that planted the seed that filled my heart with love of cinema. And it planted the seeds for me as I grew up to. To really want to delve into cinema, you know, well beyond those kinds of films.

00:50:34:13 - 00:50:35:23

Clark

Yeah. So it worked at ABC.

00:50:35:23 - 00:50:36:10

Cullen

Exactly.

00:50:36:10 - 00:50:37:18

Clark

That's what it did for me. Yeah?

00:50:37:19 - 00:50:58:01

Cullen

Mm hmm. Yeah. So my fifth and final, uh, movie is. Is I think it's my, I, you know, my second English language one. Um, but it is, it is considered one of the greatest movies of all time. Oh, it is an older movie, though. So. So a lot of people may have missed it just because it is from 1941.

00:50:58:01 - 00:51:17:19

Cullen

But it's Sullivan's Travels, which is directed by Preston Sturges. It starred Joel McCrea and Veronica Lake, and it is a movie that I remember. I was giving it in like grade ten at a birthday party. Wow. One of my friends just, like, gave me the criterion for it.

00:51:18:17 - 00:51:20:00

Clark

That's such a random gift.

00:51:20:00 - 00:51:25:10

Cullen

For like, yeah, for. I mean, this friend always gives me gives me straight. No, no, I was, I was in grade ten. I wasn't.

00:51:25:11 - 00:51:28:12

Clark

Oh, great. Yeah. Okay. Okay. First so I heard.

00:51:28:12 - 00:51:29:15

Cullen

You 15, 16.

00:51:29:15 - 00:51:33:20

Clark

And I was like, I was like, wait a minute. So you're telling me at ten years old, somebody gave you.

00:51:34:05 - 00:51:35:17

Cullen

Sullivan's travels from 19.

00:51:36:02 - 00:51:39:06

Clark

41? Okay, sure. Box I is.

00:51:39:16 - 00:52:04:04

Cullen

Is it's a comedy. I mean, it's about this guy who he's like this Hollywood director who wants to make a movie about, you know, like homeless people and stuff like that. And he decides to basically go on this trek across America to experience the homeless world and like to be, you know, train hopping and have a little pack on your back and stuff like that.

00:52:04:04 - 00:52:16:23

Cullen

And and so it begins as this A if you haven't watched comedies from this era, watch comedies in this area because they are all hilarious like they are, you might think that they are dated, but they.

00:52:16:23 - 00:52:17:20

Clark

Are such time.

00:52:17:20 - 00:52:36:22

Cullen

They make me laugh harder than most comedies that come out today. And that's not just me saying like, Oh, I've got such a distinct taste. They are legitimately I can watch this with friends and they will all be like, you know, falling over backwards, laughing as they are such. They take so much from vaudeville. Yes. And it really it's like timeless, timeless humor.

00:52:37:00 - 00:52:53:21

Cullen

Yeah. So firstly, the opening scene, this movie is one of the funniest scenes in any movie. Yeah, but then it just turns into this movie that becomes so incredibly heartfelt. And it's really been an inspiration for me in terms of blending, blending style and tone.

00:52:54:03 - 00:52:55:16

Clark

Okay.

00:52:55:16 - 00:53:02:02

Cullen

Because it has the famous scene where they go to they're in the South and they're in a black church.

00:53:02:07 - 00:53:02:18

Clark

Don't give too.

00:53:02:18 - 00:53:28:14

Cullen

Much away there. I won't give too much away. But there's this moment where it's a very famous scene and then these prisoners are marched in and they're singing Let My People Go, the biblical song. And it's like this insanely emotional, like heart wrenching scene in this this, you know, 1940s comedy. That's that's like this is almost like a screwball comedy about this director who's just like, getting into antics and, you know, Three Stooges style kind of thing.

00:53:29:15 - 00:53:54:18

Cullen

And but it becomes really heartfelt. It's got a really incredible, you know, message, for lack of a better term. It's just it's in the performances are great. Um, it's not hard to get through by any means. It's not like it doesn't feel dated at all. The cinematography is greats, black and white, of course, but it's that beautiful, rich God I love, like most Moorish black and white.

00:53:55:16 - 00:54:13:16

Cullen

And it's one of those it comes from that era where every single person on set because there was no digital to depend on. There was no you couldn't check the dailies immediately. You couldn't write, you know, you didn't have a focus puller looking at a monitor. Now every single person on set was at the it was the most skilled practitioner of what they did.

00:54:13:19 - 00:54:15:03

Cullen

Yeah. And every shot.

00:54:15:03 - 00:54:16:01

Clark

Is real craft.

00:54:16:01 - 00:54:34:19

Cullen

With, with, with, you know, incredible accuracy in terms of lining up that focus and pushing that camera forward. If you're if you're dallying, then you are dallying. And it's like they everyone is on their A-game. And yet there's just there's, you know, too much to say about this movie. I could spend an hour talking about this movie, but.

00:54:34:19 - 00:54:36:17

Clark

Yeah, well, maybe we can pick it up.

00:54:36:17 - 00:54:45:05

Cullen

Time. Yeah, perhaps so. But it's it definitely deserves, you know, it's again, it's it's it's regarded as one of the best movies made. It's it's regarded as a masterpiece.

00:54:45:10 - 00:54:48:00

Clark

I feel so shameful that I haven't seen it.

00:54:48:10 - 00:54:52:04

Cullen

It's fantastic, though. It's on Criterion. I'm not sure if it's on the Criterion Channel.

00:54:52:05 - 00:54:53:11

Clark

I'll I'm going to go check it.

00:54:53:11 - 00:54:58:04

Cullen

Action definitely has a yeah, because I own it somewhere. It's it's one of my favorites.

00:54:58:04 - 00:55:04:19

Clark

I'm hopeful that it's on the I'm hopeful that it's on the channel. Yeah. And which I love just Yeah and and.

00:55:05:10 - 00:55:16:20

Cullen

The the cinematographer, if I'm not mistaken, was the same cinematographer who did What is it? It's. It's John. John F Seitz.

00:55:16:20 - 00:55:17:03

Clark

Yep.

00:55:18:02 - 00:55:22:19

Cullen

And what was he did Sunset Boulevard. He did Double Indemnity. So a lot of those noir movies.

00:55:23:08 - 00:55:25:10

Clark

Oh, my God, he. He shot a million films.

00:55:25:11 - 00:55:27:00

Cullen

You look at. I mean, everyone, this.

00:55:27:00 - 00:55:27:07

Clark

Guy had.

00:55:27:07 - 00:55:45:06

Cullen

Filmography of like anyone back in the day that was like even directors. It was they all are like hundreds of movies or anything because they were turning them out, you know? KRAKER Yeah, Yeah. So, so I would definitely again, 100% recommend this movie. I mean, no surprise. These are the five movies we chose. But but but that's my final one.

00:55:45:06 - 00:55:46:18

Cullen

And now right to your final one.

00:55:46:21 - 00:56:17:16

Clark

All right. So again, it's a film that, you know, nowadays and especially with, you know, people like Quentin Tarantino heaping so much praise on this film and mentioning it as a significant inspiration for him. I think that, you know, now everybody this film as a as a an important classic and a milestone in cinema. But back when I was a little kid and I was watching TV like the Sunday afternoon movie with my father, that none of that really existed.

00:56:17:18 - 00:56:42:07

Clark

It was just a, you know, a kind of like a spaghetti western that happened to be pretty good. And, you know, it was fun film and it did have Clint Eastwood in it. So it was known. But yeah, and now it's kind of reached this like huge, you know, space and the cannon. But my final pick is 1966 is Sergio Leone's masterpiece, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly classic.

00:56:42:07 - 00:56:44:00

Cullen

I actually watched this not too long ago, too.

00:56:44:08 - 00:57:27:23

Clark

And yeah, there's some really extraordinary the latest restoration on 4K is like just absolutely magnificent. But but yeah I mean, you know basically that's the story I, you know spaghetti westerns. I grew up watching these films. They were films that my dad loved. And, you know, they were the films that were on, you know, the like the Sunday afternoon, you know, like movie marathon on, you know, Channel 11 in Saint Louis, you know, And and so I grew up watching these films, and I was just I loved, you know, it was almost like a cartoon come real to me, you know, with these exaggerated camera moves and zooms and these, like, really colorful characters that

00:57:27:23 - 00:57:48:00

Clark

almost required no language whatsoever. I mean, you could turn the sound off on this movie and, you know, you knew every you know, who's the bad guy, who's the good guy, you know? But I just it was it was so epic. And scope and and I was just so captivated by this, you know, it was it was I don't know what else to say.

00:57:48:00 - 00:58:08:22

Clark

It was I was just mesmerized by this film. And now that I've watched it later, multiple times as an adult, of course, I appreciate, you know, so much more about this film. But but yeah, that's that's my first film. I know you've seen it. Yeah. So it sounds like you agree that you're a fan of the film. Absolutely.

00:58:08:22 - 00:58:09:16

Clark

Yeah. Yeah.

00:58:09:16 - 00:58:13:14

Cullen

And this is a this is also a movie. It's so easy to show people of younger generations.

00:58:13:17 - 00:58:14:00

Clark

Yeah.

00:58:14:00 - 00:58:24:23

Cullen

It and get them into like again it's it's it's it's a timeless, timeless movie. Yep. And I've never had any trouble showing people like that, like, you know, the high schoolers in my class this.

00:58:25:11 - 00:58:44:02

Clark

Um, because the characters are such archetypes, it's so that's what I mean is that it translates language you don't really. And then you could show this to somebody. And in so many different countries and with different languages and I think, you know, so much of this translates, I think, yeah, so much of it. And so for a young child, you know, a lot of it translated in it and it's.

00:58:44:02 - 00:58:50:14

Cullen

A great opportunity to also go back to like even like kind of take it as a jumping point to like the old Kurosawa movies that they.

00:58:50:14 - 00:58:51:04

Clark

Absolutely.

00:58:51:04 - 00:59:06:06

Cullen

Love this. And, you know, I think that's such a it's such a fascinating period of filmmaking because it was it was like John Ford inspired Kurosawa, who inspired Sergio Leone. And it was like this this feedback loop. We then went on to inspire George Lucas. So, you know.

00:59:06:09 - 00:59:36:15

Clark

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I just I love you know, this is one of the first films where, like, really actively remember, like an anti-hero, you know? And so that was like really compelling to me because, you know, before I'm kind of like, you know, it's like Luke Skywalker or, you know, but to have this, like, reluctant hero, this anti-hero, these that was just like, so compelling to me and, you know, Clint Eastwood's performance, the Man with No name, you know, this like almost silent protagonist, which just so I was like, oh, my God, he's so cool.

00:59:36:15 - 00:59:53:18

Clark

I want to be that you know? Oh, yeah, I just the epic scope of it and I just that everything about this film is so fun to me and what can I say? Yeah, it's another film that really inspired me as a child.

00:59:54:02 - 00:59:56:06

Cullen

And check out the other two from the trilogy.

00:59:56:10 - 01:00:08:23

Clark

Yeah, and, and I have it, and they're wonderful too. But, you know, I picked one, I had to pick one. And so, yeah, I feel kind of like the first two films were kind of like, I don't want to go so far as to say, practice for this one. But they.

01:00:09:09 - 01:00:09:19

Cullen

Definitely.

01:00:09:19 - 01:00:12:02

Clark

They definitely get better as they go.

01:00:12:05 - 01:00:14:03

Cullen

There's there's a reason why this one's the most famous one.

01:00:14:04 - 01:00:30:07

Clark

And there's a reason why this one is the most famous. But they honestly are absolutely all worth watching. I think they've all been really well restored. So as I remember watching them as a kid and it was like sound, I mean, everything. How they look like crap. When I watched them as a kid, I didn't.

01:00:30:07 - 01:00:35:19

Cullen

And especially and it's so funny to do because this like, this is an R-rated movie. I remember seeing this on a shelf. We were saying.

01:00:35:20 - 01:00:37:09

Clark

Is it really? I didn't even know that.

01:00:37:09 - 01:00:52:22

Cullen

Yeah, I was on The View, right? We had it on VHS The first time I saw it was at this like bed and breakfast in, like Nova Scotia or something. And it was on the they had a selection of VHS and it was R and I remember being like so scared to put it in because I thought I was going to see all this crazy violence.

01:00:53:06 - 01:00:55:19

Cullen

It's so tame by like, Oh, it's so tame.

01:00:55:23 - 01:01:06:21

Clark

That's what I'm shocked that it's, ah, I'm like, What is our about it? Like, is there even like a because I'm trying to think it's not really got language that would make it. R Right. And I'd.

01:01:06:22 - 01:01:11:09

Cullen

Assume it's mostly just the violence, but there's not, there's not really much blood in it, but I'm.

01:01:11:18 - 01:01:16:10

Clark

Almost done. Yeah. It's that old fashioned like it. Good shot and just kind of fall all over.

01:01:16:16 - 01:01:17:12

Cullen

Yeah. The railing.

01:01:17:12 - 01:01:28:02

Clark

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Yeah. But you are right. You know, Fistful of dollars and a few dollars more, they're definitely also worth. And then, of course, the soundtrack I mean, you know, like.

01:01:28:12 - 01:01:31:04

Cullen

Defined westerns to this day. Yeah.

01:01:31:04 - 01:01:49:06

Clark

Yeah. I just you can't even, you just can't get better. Yeah. So anyway, awesome. Well, that dude, this has been fun. I look, I'm excited. I've got a few films to add to my list. I'm excited to see or see. As the case may be, I'm going to go back and check out Munich, but this was enjoyable. It's yeah.

01:01:49:08 - 01:01:51:11

Cullen

It's a Do you want to figure out we're doing for our hundredth?

01:01:51:22 - 01:02:07:12

Clark

Oh my gosh. Yeah, we'll have to figure that out. And hey, by the way, just because I still get to pick the film for next time. So yes, we don't get my we don't get skipped, so. Yeah. So next thing, we'll get to be my choice. Who knows? Maybe I'll pick one of these, but. Well, we hope we get.

01:02:07:12 - 01:02:27:07

Clark

You enjoyed this as much as we did. I know I had a blast. And we always appreciate you checking out our musings on film because we enjoy doing it. We hope you enjoyed listening to it. Until next time. COHEN Have a wonderful week or two, depending on how long it might be. And for everybody else out there, look forward to next time.

01:02:27:07 - 01:02:27:18

Clark

See you then.

01:02:28:01 - 01:02:30:10

Cullen

Yeah. Bye bye.

Episode - 051 - Amadeus

Cullen

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. Episode 51 I am Cullen McPhatter and as always, I'm joined by Clarke Coffee. Hey. Hey. Going.

00:00:21:00 - 00:00:24:04

Clark

Hey, man, my day is going pretty well. How about you?

00:00:25:05 - 00:00:31:04

Cullen

It's going. It's going well. It's it's haven't done much other than this, but nothing to complain about.

00:00:31:17 - 00:00:33:14

Clark

I, I was doing my taxes.

00:00:33:21 - 00:00:34:18

Cullen

Oh, there you go.

00:00:34:18 - 00:00:39:16

Clark

But before this. So I'm like, very, very, very happy. Well, what.

00:00:39:16 - 00:00:42:13

Cullen

Is tax what's the what's what's your tax season cut. So.

00:00:42:15 - 00:00:47:18

Clark

Well, I'm jumping ahead a little bit so I think it's the 18th of April this year.

00:00:47:18 - 00:00:49:08

Cullen

Okay. So it's like pretty much the same as ours.

00:00:49:09 - 00:01:12:13

Clark

So, yeah, it is. And I am admittedly kind of ahead, but but that is because in a couple of weeks I will be leaving for France where my wife. Right, will be for three weeks ish or so. So I just wanted to get this like knocked off my to do list so I don't have to rush, you know, and I don't really have like, I only have like a week or so, you know, by when I get back from France to do this.

00:01:12:13 - 00:01:22:08

Clark

So I'm like, Yeah, let's just get it done. Let's just it's it's it's a painful experience. I'd rather just have it out of the way than having to look forward to it. It's very fair. Yeah, well, this.

00:01:22:08 - 00:01:23:21

Cullen

Is not the tax podcast.

00:01:23:21 - 00:01:25:18

Clark

This is not the tax podcast. That good.

00:01:26:03 - 00:01:43:22

Cullen

But yeah, we're going to be talking today about your pick, which was 1980 four's Amadeus Amadeus. Milos Forman. Forman Yeah, starring Tom. I always am worried that I'm going to mispronounce his name. You're not Tom. Hush, hush, hush, hush.

00:01:43:22 - 00:01:48:10

Clark

Shameless Hulce I think it's almost. Yeah, starring Tom Hall's. And it's one.

00:01:48:10 - 00:01:52:22

Cullen

Of those it's I mean, it's very clearly like an, you know, a Anglo-Saxon. Oh, wait.

00:01:52:22 - 00:01:57:07

Clark

Wait, wait. You can't just say it's starring Tom Hulce. I mean, you have to put in f Murray.

00:01:57:07 - 00:01:57:19

Cullen

Abraham.

00:01:57:19 - 00:01:58:15

Clark

Abraham, Abraham.

00:01:58:16 - 00:02:01:06

Cullen

I mean, especially considering that he won the Oscar for it.

00:02:01:11 - 00:02:10:12

Clark

Well, they were both nominated and he was he actually won. We're going to get to more of that. But his performance is just, in my opinion, just outstanding in the film.

00:02:10:18 - 00:02:13:15

Cullen

Yeah, but you got some good makeup on him, too.

00:02:14:06 - 00:02:14:23

Clark

Yes.

00:02:15:02 - 00:02:16:13

Cullen

Well, aging affects him.

00:02:16:13 - 00:02:26:18

Clark

We're going to get to all of that. But yeah, like amazing makeup. Actually, I'm a big fan of practical effects, you know, so it's not like deep fake here, actual real makeup.

00:02:26:18 - 00:02:43:07

Cullen

But I guess I guess I would I want to know first, too, is okay, like, because this was not the this is an unknown movie by any means. But yeah, it was sort of an unexpected pick in terms of, like I said this, I was I was surprised. I just was not really thinking ahead. I, I don't know.

00:02:43:07 - 00:02:48:03

Cullen

I don't know why this was I was unexpected about you picking this movie. So why would I pick it?

00:02:48:05 - 00:02:49:23

Clark

I expected that you would.

00:02:50:11 - 00:02:51:15

Cullen

Feel that.

00:02:51:15 - 00:02:52:17

Clark

It was unexpected it.

00:02:53:12 - 00:02:54:07

Cullen

In the script on me.

00:02:54:10 - 00:03:11:17

Clark

Well, well, so. So let's break it down. So we have an early we have a mid eighties film. And if you notice, a lot of the films that I've picked are kind of in this time zone. And the reason being is because this is when I was kind of, you know, coming into, you know, the world of cinema.

00:03:11:17 - 00:03:29:13

Clark

I was like old enough to start watching things. And, you know, the films that I saw between like, you know, eight to 12 to 15 or whatever, you know, like, profoundly impactful on me. But I'll tell you, you know, why I picked this film. I mean, a, I think that it's a fantastic film. I think it does hold up.

00:03:29:20 - 00:03:46:13

Clark

There are a lot of Academy Award winning films that don't hold up. I mean, and that's, you know, maybe we could do an episode, you know, one day on those. Because I think it's interesting to kind of analyze those films that won Academy Awards. But, you know, it really don't stand the test of time. Well, evening.

00:03:46:20 - 00:04:05:03

Cullen

Even look at the things that it was up against, which is interesting because maybe one or two of them are sort of known movies. But the other ones really, Yeah. Aren't that famous. It was up against the Killing Fields passage to India, which was David Lean. Yeah, Places in the Hearts and A Soldier's Story, which was.

00:04:05:08 - 00:04:09:22

Clark

And how many of those films are still reviewed? Review Yeah, I don't think so.

00:04:09:23 - 00:04:11:11

Cullen

Kind of lexicon of yeah.

00:04:11:11 - 00:04:40:01

Clark

Yeah. So so but I think this film does hold up. But the reason that I picked it is that this film means a lot to me personally. And, you know, I guess what I mean when I say that is that, you know, for better or worse, I can really, really, really relate to what Cellulari represents in this film, what he symbolizes, this longing for greatness.

00:04:40:01 - 00:05:16:02

Clark

You know, it it and I think everybody, to some extent or another has experienced this longing to be great. We've explored, we've all experienced jealousy in different ways in our life at different points. Hopefully we're not consumed by it like Salieri is. This is obviously a really, you know, a hyper representation of. Yes, of this. But I mean, but but that longing to be great and that, you know, to be So I think this film just does such an extraordinary job of represen and what it feels to want to be great at something.

00:05:16:09 - 00:05:24:22

Clark

Yeah. And to recognize greatness and to be so deeply and profoundly moved by by greatness and.

00:05:24:22 - 00:05:26:02

Cullen

Filled with jealousy, too.

00:05:26:03 - 00:05:53:06

Clark

And to be filled because, I mean, I gather, like, I'm going to admit more than maybe I should admit to in this podcast and get personal here. But look, it I mean, I have to tell you that it is it is uncommon for me, like let me say this a different way when I experience what I consider to be a profoundly moving great esthetic or inducing works of art.

00:05:53:19 - 00:06:09:02

Clark

There is always, alongside my experience of that esthetic or a little sliver of deep, deep longing. Mm hmm. About wishing that I could make something that great.

00:06:09:13 - 00:06:09:21

Cullen

Mm hmm.

00:06:10:04 - 00:06:30:08

Clark

And and so this film, to me, better than any other work that I've ever experienced, really just nails down that experience, which I have, you know, say, regularly. But, you know, throughout my life I have had and that's why I picked this film. That's why this film means something to me.

00:06:31:12 - 00:06:35:09

Cullen

Well, that's, uh, yeah, it's a very great assessment. They're like.

00:06:35:13 - 00:06:38:23

Clark

You're like, you're like, Oh, my God, this is this has got probably.

00:06:38:23 - 00:06:47:13

Cullen

Harry now, But no, no. I mean, that's a totally like, uh, I think universal kind of feeling. Yeah, for especially for artists.

00:06:48:02 - 00:06:48:16

Clark

I think so.

00:06:48:16 - 00:07:14:16

Cullen

Everywhere, you know, you'll see. I think, I think I even even friends of mine, when they make something that I think is, is magnificent, I it's not for me it's, it's less so an element of envy. But you know, you always kind of going with hard on yourself. Yeah. It's like we're, we're like you're kind of like and perhaps I think the irony of it again and when we were talking before, I kind of very briefly just brought up the idea of like imposter syndrome.

00:07:14:16 - 00:07:23:22

Cullen

But perhaps the reason for it is also just because you, you know, you obviously aren't going to recognize very rarely do people recognize their own talent.

00:07:23:22 - 00:07:24:17

Clark

Absolutely.

00:07:24:17 - 00:07:45:14

Cullen

So, like, perhaps, you know, I have no idea. Maybe when I make something, my friends have the exact same feeling that I have. Yeah. And because you see all the intricacies of your own work and but there's also a very real thing of of recognition and how salary is very clearly not recognized and not, you know, he, he envies not only to have the genius of.

00:07:45:15 - 00:07:46:05

Clark

But to be with the.

00:07:46:05 - 00:07:48:14

Cullen

Recognition and the fame and the fortune.

00:07:49:01 - 00:08:15:10

Clark

And I know what that's like. And I know what that's like, too. I mean, look, I I'm the guy that at 30 whatever, at 30 years of age or whatever it was, I quit my successful career in the corporate world and moved to Los Angeles to pursue acting and and that was a profound experience, you know, that the years that I spent doing that had a huge impact on my life.

00:08:15:10 - 00:08:29:11

Clark

But but so I understand what that is to, you know, not just do that. I mean, we are again, it's universal. I mean, I think all of us know what it is to want to be recognized to to want to be appreciated, to want to know.

00:08:29:14 - 00:08:30:04

Cullen

Absolutely.

00:08:30:20 - 00:08:57:02

Clark

And I just think this film does an absolutely fantastic job of representing that. And and even though Salieri, you know, that those elements are are heightened quite greatly in the Yeah yeah. He's also still very sympathetic at least I Oh absolutely. I mean he appreciates the greatness of Mozart and like anyone else like nobody else.

00:08:57:02 - 00:09:13:15

Cullen

Well, I think the brilliant thing about that, though, that that this movie really is that in any other movie, celluloid would be nothing more than the adversary. But the fact that this movie centers the story on him makes him automatically much more sympathetic, which I think it's a much more interesting choice.

00:09:13:15 - 00:09:14:04

Clark

Absolutely.

00:09:14:04 - 00:09:33:09

Cullen

If this movie had not if this movie did not have any of the I mean, I say present day. It's not present day. But the the thing after Salieri's suicide attempt where he's, you know, retelling this story to the priest. Mm hmm. If it if none of that was involved, Salieri would be nothing more than just the antagonist of the movie that kind of pops in and out.

00:09:33:12 - 00:09:35:12

Clark

Well, in a lesser film, you're definitely right.

00:09:35:12 - 00:09:36:00

Cullen

Exactly.

00:09:36:00 - 00:09:49:02

Clark

And I love I love, you know, that every element of this film, I mean, even the title is this ironic, you know, jab, right? Because. Because it should be titled Salieri. But it's not. Yes, it's titled Amadeus or like Salieri.

00:09:49:10 - 00:09:50:00

Cullen

Mozart.

00:09:50:10 - 00:09:56:10

Clark

But it is Salieri story. Absolutely, positively, without any question. It's his story and it's you.

00:09:56:12 - 00:10:05:08

Cullen

You don't actually really get to know Mozart that well. And like, there's no there's nothing about, you know, everything that is told about Mozart's personal life prior to.

00:10:05:08 - 00:10:06:08

Clark

What we did is that we.

00:10:06:08 - 00:10:26:01

Cullen

Were Salieri about his childhood, about all that, you know, with very few exceptions, perhaps, like maybe the bits with Mozart's dad. But even that is still very observant. It's not necessarily you're never really getting this, like, long drawn out scene of Mozart monologuing about how he's, you know, he longs for his father. You even hear rekindled or whatever.

00:10:26:08 - 00:10:46:23

Clark

You and I and of course that the film very clearly bookends right. It's like you talk about how it's you know, literally it's Salieri telling this priest in an asylum about you know, tells the story that we see unfold before us. I mean, it's it's so clearly from Salieri's point of view and it's so clearly about him, which I think makes it great.

00:10:46:23 - 00:11:02:05

Clark

And so it's it's it's always a laugh to me that the film is named Amadeus because it's like just one more like jab at cell the area. It's like har har Salieri. Even in the movie that's really about you. It's going to be called Mozart. He's going to steal the title away from you.

00:11:02:18 - 00:11:03:07

Cullen

Yeah.

00:11:03:15 - 00:11:17:15

Clark

You know, it's I just love it. But I mean, you know, let's talk a little bit because we kind of skipped over it. But I'm just curious, you know, kind of like what was your personal experience of the film? Did you see it when the film, you know, well, obviously you didn't see it in the eighties, but did you see it before?

00:11:17:15 - 00:11:37:06

Cullen

So I it's it's my mom. I think it's my mom's favorite movie, I believe. I think it's because it's the one that she definitely talks about the most. And she, like, went to Vienna to see where we were in Prague, which was because the movie's shot in Prague, but set in Vienna. And, you know, she was always very excited when we were in Prague to see the locations from it and things like that.

00:11:38:22 - 00:11:55:14

Cullen

But I the first time I saw it, the first and only as far as I know, the only I don't think I've ever seen it since then was probably I was six or seven. I want to say I was really, really young when I saw this movie on VHS on the phone. It was the two VHS and yeah, because it was too long to fit on one VHS.

00:11:56:20 - 00:12:14:10

Cullen

And I just remember, yeah, just knowing that it was a movie that my mom really liked and thinking that at the time, because I was so young, not really understanding the, you know, in a way sort of satirical elements of it that I just thought it was kind of a pretty straightforward historical drama, and I remembered it as such.

00:12:14:10 - 00:12:42:22

Cullen

And so, yeah, it's a kind of surprise this time to to watch it and see how in, for lack of a better term, lighthearted and how, you know, comedic it is, how much it pokes fun at all these things elements and kind of is is not only utilizing Mozart as an way to laugh at the the kind of common courtesy of the time of of mannerisms and you know interrelationship in the way that you talk to people.

00:12:42:22 - 00:13:12:23

Cullen

It uses him to kind of, you know, placate like almost like a 20th or 21st century view on those customs of just like super heightened, you know, politeness. And that that he's very much is kind of like the audiences weigh in by just making all those things kind of a laughing stock and but also the fact that it is very, very relatable and accessible in the way that it it, you know, again, presents these elements in a very through a lens of the modern day.

00:13:14:13 - 00:13:40:21

Cullen

You know, it's not it's not an this is a movie that I love Barry Lyndon. It's not Barry Lyndon. It's not presenting the film in a in a very, very heightened artistic 17th or 18th century style. It presents these things as, again, just kind of like a modern eye looking on them. And to me, that is a really brilliant choice because it makes the film, it makes these characters much more understandable.

00:13:40:22 - 00:14:02:05

Cullen

It you kind of understand their, their, you know, needs and desires and and you're much more empathetic towards them because they don't seem like people in a painting. They seem like people that are, you know, existing in the real world, despite the fact that the movie is not accurate in the slightest and historical sense.

00:14:02:10 - 00:14:03:06

Clark

Right. You know.

00:14:03:07 - 00:14:19:00

Cullen

With the exception to perhaps like the very, very broad general details, it's not you know, of course, Salieri and Mozart did know each other. And, you know, those elements are true. But but they you know, that the story itself, the plot of the film, is totally fictional. It's like a fan fiction.

00:14:19:05 - 00:14:40:04

Clark

It's totally fictionalized. And yeah, I mean, I would liken it to I mean, it's it's almost like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood or something. I mean, the location is real. The time is real. These there were people with these names that did exist. And the film definitely uses both Salieri and Mozart's real music and, you know, all the almost all of these main characters.

00:14:40:04 - 00:15:12:19

Clark

So I think all of the main characters actually did really exist. But the story that's told here is completely fiction. I mean, I think, you know, in the research that I did, which admittedly it was limited but in a scholar's understanding of these things is also limited. But I think, you know, this this that Salieri and Mozart actually coexisted, appreciated and respected each other for the most part, you know, So this this whole thing is just dramatizes, you know.

00:15:14:06 - 00:15:19:23

Cullen

Oh, I also think that we should mention just just briefly that we both watched this time the director's cut.

00:15:19:23 - 00:15:43:10

Clark

Oh, yeah. Yes. And the director's cut. So, yeah, I mean, look, the the the theatrical release wasn't a short film. I think it was about two and a half hours long. This version adds 20 more minutes. And it's interesting to note, like, for example, if you were to go watch this on Netflix or I think it was at one point, I'm not 100% sure if it's still up, but it's actually really difficult to find the theatrical version anymore.

00:15:43:10 - 00:15:57:14

Cullen

Yeah, I think that I think I mean, as a kid, I'm sure I saw this. I think the VHS was and what's interesting too, it wasn't a joke. So the original theatrical 161 minute version is PG, whereas this year director's cut was rated R.

00:15:57:15 - 00:16:25:05

Clark

And that's and that's because one of the originally omitted scenes that has been added back actually has a bit of nudity in it. Yes. And that's Elizabeth Berridge, who plays Constance Mozart is humiliated basically by F Murray Abrams Salieri, and he has her get naked in his room. And so, yeah.

00:16:25:06 - 00:16:26:11

Cullen

Then I might have seen.

00:16:26:11 - 00:16:27:01

Clark

Nudity.

00:16:27:01 - 00:16:39:04

Cullen

The director's cut when I was a kid, because I do remember at one point seeing I was like, again, like six years old. And when you see, you know, nudity at that age, it's like, yeah.

00:16:39:10 - 00:16:40:12

Clark

Lose your mind. Yeah.

00:16:41:00 - 00:16:51:09

Cullen

So I think I think I may have seen again I was so young then that it doesn't really matter either way, which I saw because I hardly remember the movie. But, but yeah, it's because.

00:16:51:11 - 00:16:59:19

Clark

I want to say that it was the early 2000 and I could be completely wrong here, but I want to say like around 22 ish or something, that when the DVD was released.

00:16:59:21 - 00:17:01:20

Cullen

Yeah, it was the director's cut.

00:17:01:22 - 00:17:02:21

Clark

Okay, So.

00:17:02:21 - 00:17:07:12

Cullen

Yeah, I don't know. I honestly don't. I'd have to. I'm sure I still have the VHS somewhere at my mom's place. I can.

00:17:07:12 - 00:17:23:13

Clark

Memories are so inaccurate. It's, you know, who knows? You may have seen the original version and then you may have followed that up by seeing the director's cut and those two in your mind. But. But that is one of that. You know, and I do think the director's cut, I think the scenes that they had back in are actually really helpful.

00:17:23:15 - 00:17:53:18

Clark

And that scene that we just discussed, I don't want to digress too much here, but is important because it actually kind of helps bolster the ending of the film when she walks in on Sally Airy asleep and Mozart is dead, the this humiliation that she experienced in front of him when she takes the score away and locks it away, it kind of foiling his final plan, which was to actually claim that piece as his own, as his own.

00:17:54:14 - 00:18:16:12

Cullen

Which in there is actually weirdly enough, there is an element of, again, truth to that, not in the way that it was silly his plan to steal it but that that Mozart died while writing the Requiem and it was finished by contemporaries. Yeah but, but it's a little kernels. Yeah, but it's like that's what I think is a great way to make a movie like this, which is like just use.

00:18:16:12 - 00:18:39:01

Cullen

It's kind of like, you know, it's, it's like adapting source material from a book where you, you can choose, you know, elements that work in film, that work better in film and adapt those to a different medium. It doesn't really matter the accuracy to, you know, whatever novel it is that's being, you know, adapted. I know some people are the opposite where it's like accuracy is all they care about, but I've always felt that, that, that, you know, who cares about accuracy.

00:18:39:01 - 00:18:41:18

Cullen

What matters is is getting an idea out and.

00:18:41:18 - 00:19:03:00

Clark

And well yeah I mean I think the cinema is not a biography of Amadeus it's yeah it's about I mean again in my mind it's about longing for greatness. Yes. Yeah. And you know, we've talked about this before. That fact doesn't equal truth, you know, Or truth doesn't equal fact. Yeah. That there is an esthetic truth that's much more important than an accountant's truth.

00:19:03:10 - 00:19:25:22

Clark

And and I think that absolutely is more effective in works of art than just trying to stick to some kind of accountant's truth. Yeah. In fact, you know, even within documentary films, I don't think that that works totally. And I think films that try, you know, especially with biopic films and there's been a lot recently biopic films that I just I'd never liked them.

00:19:25:22 - 00:19:37:23

Clark

I very rarely like biopic films that that try to kind of represent things historically accurate. And, you know, I it just they always come off to me as as dry and well I.

00:19:37:23 - 00:19:43:01

Cullen

Think the other issue is and so they very rarely say anything beyond this was the life of the person.

00:19:43:09 - 00:19:44:03

Clark

Yeah like look.

00:19:44:12 - 00:19:45:00

Cullen

This person.

00:19:45:00 - 00:19:46:02

Clark

Was usually wounded.

00:19:46:02 - 00:20:08:11

Cullen

If you distill and again I kind of I kind of relate this film to to which is another previous movie that we just did Ed Wood in that the portrayal of these these artists is much more in line with their art as opposed to what they actually were like in your life, like in Ed Wood. How how Johnny Depp is portraying Ed Wood like he is a character in his movie.

00:20:08:11 - 00:20:39:02

Cullen

Like like he's a representation of the way that he made movies. And yeah, this the portrayal of Mozart as this this very kind of like manic character is much in line with the way that his music sounds like that His music is so energetic and like very lifelike and full of life, which I'm sure at the time. Like one of the reasons that his movie music was really lauded when he was alive was because it was so different from from the way that people were writing music then and, and because it was so, you know, energetic.

00:20:39:02 - 00:21:11:02

Cullen

And we now may look back on that and go, Well, that's just classical music. It's boring or whatever, But I think that, you know, I'm someone who really likes a lot of classical music. I think if you compare that to contemporary music at the time, yeah, he, he would have been like a a force to reckon with in terms of like everyone was like God, like it would be like someone in the fifties inventing, you know, not by a comparison of quality, but it would be like someone in the fifties inventing like techno, like it was like suddenly this, this, you know, lifelike force of nature came on.

00:21:11:02 - 00:21:38:00

Cullen

So I think that the way that they choose to portray him as a as a as again, very much so a force of nature, this person who is the center of attention in every room that he's in, who was like crass and, you know, jokes around there, is there is again, there is some truth there that he he apparently did have a very juvenile sense of humor, like there were letters from him to his father where he says, like kiss my Irish or something and would love to play jokes on people like that.

00:21:38:00 - 00:21:53:13

Cullen

And apparently it was very humorous. But but all that stuff is just exaggerated to portray an idea much more so than to portray an accurate, you know, representation of what it what life was like for Mozart in his day to day or Salieri or you know, any of the people in this movie.

00:21:53:23 - 00:22:15:03

Clark

Well, I think that and also, if you look at Milosz's other work, some of his other work, I think it's pretty clear that he is interested in outsiders. Yeah. Yeah. You know, another one of my favorite films, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, he directed in 1975. Clearly that film was about an outsider or actually a group, a full group of outsiders.

00:22:15:05 - 00:22:17:02

Cullen

Yeah, but also an outsider within a group.

00:22:17:07 - 00:22:20:06

Clark

And of course, yes, an outsider within this town.

00:22:20:07 - 00:22:20:20

Cullen

In terms of.

00:22:20:20 - 00:22:24:21

Clark

That, I think this film, you know, Mozart is clearly presented as an outsider here.

00:22:26:21 - 00:22:53:08

Clark

People versus Larry Flynt. Larry Flynt is presented as an outsider man on the moon. Andy Kaufman, played by Jim Carrey, you know, clearly an outsider there. So these you know, these rebels, these outsiders, these renegades, it's clearly something that Milos is interested in. And, you know, using these aside from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, you know, using real people who really existed.

00:22:53:13 - 00:23:12:18

Clark

And certainly there was a kernel of that renegade ness, that exceptionalism, that outsider ness, you know, did really exist. But taking that kernel and really, you know, dramatizing that and, you know, fictionalizing that and emphasizing that in these films is definitely a theme here. And militia's fantastic at it and all this.

00:23:12:20 - 00:23:27:05

Cullen

And perhaps it's also an advantage of of of taking something from stage. And I want to get into this later too, because stylistically I think one of the great things about this movie is that it does what a lot of stage adaptations, film adaptations of a stage play.

00:23:28:10 - 00:23:32:13

Clark

Don't do real quick. Yes. Oh, yeah. SCHAFFER Yeah. So just a little background. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about.

00:23:32:13 - 00:23:37:15

Cullen

That. Yeah, Yeah. So so Peter Schaffer's, he wrote the screenplay, but also wrote the play Amadeus.

00:23:37:18 - 00:23:44:00

Clark

And it was it was a very successful play. It ran for, I think, over a thousand productions on Broadway. It just didn't have some.

00:23:44:00 - 00:23:44:20

Cullen

Very big names in it.

00:23:44:20 - 00:23:48:23

Clark

Tim Yeah, Ian McKellen was Salieri, Tim Curry was Mozart. Other actor.

00:23:48:23 - 00:23:52:09

Cullen

Mark Hamill also apparently was Mozart, which I think would be very interesting to see.

00:23:52:12 - 00:24:11:20

Clark

A lot of actors rotated through because it did run so long. So but yeah, I mean, so a very successful play and and, you know, this is not the first time that Milos has adapted a play for a successful film, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Likewise, Bliss led that production hairs. Another film.

00:24:12:02 - 00:24:15:08

Cullen

Ragtime, which is sort of the opposite. Ragtime was a book, then the movie, then.

00:24:15:20 - 00:24:17:13

Clark

Then musical, which. Yeah, yeah.

00:24:17:13 - 00:24:19:22

Cullen

I was I was actually in Ragtime in the musical, but.

00:24:20:06 - 00:24:21:20

Clark

Oh, we got to get some footage of that.

00:24:22:11 - 00:24:23:16

Cullen

Oh, I've got some, I've got post.

00:24:23:16 - 00:24:24:21

Clark

Too late to YouTube in the.

00:24:24:21 - 00:24:27:11

Cullen

Comments that know.

00:24:27:22 - 00:24:29:02

Clark

I think change the subject.

00:24:29:08 - 00:25:01:09

Cullen

If there's there's such a often times when when stage play is being adapted that there is a tendency to almost represent the film as a stage play. There is like a lot of carryover of style and while there is a lot of, you know, drawn out, extended, you know, takes in this film where people are very much performing and there's also literal stage productions in the play, I think that this movie does what does Milo Miller does is very smart, which is to adapt that into a cinematic language.

00:25:02:06 - 00:25:41:10

Cullen

And but the other advantage I think, of taking something like this from a play is that I find and, you know, I think that this is a really interesting part about live theater is that it's often a lot easier to to get away with in an audience's perception. Inaccuracies that that live theater very often plays up, you know, these inaccuracies for fun and heightens these kind of and so like, you can very much get a sense of this being based off of a a stage play because of the idea of this rivalry between Salieri, Mozart and playing that up and making a story around that very much.

00:25:41:10 - 00:26:13:12

Cullen

To me, it's kind of screams something that's very theatrical, and I feel like you would almost get more flak, but you would have more complaints about it had that not initially come from the the stage play. Because I think that there are a lot of pedants in terms of cinema that when something is not necessarily super accurate, you know, in the context of of a movie that they can kind of complaint like there's there's, there's always these conversations about like the accuracy of this or that or, you know, articles are written about like how accurate, how historically accurate is this?

00:26:13:17 - 00:26:23:00

Cullen

You don't really get stuff like that. That's that's really about like, I think people are a lot more accepting of of heightened theatricality on the stage.

00:26:23:12 - 00:26:44:09

Clark

It's interesting. That's an interesting thought and you know and of course you know both of what you didn't exist. You weren't even alive. And I was very young. And so I don't even you know, I don't know if that was ever something that the media harped on or or discussed about Amadeus. Of course, when this film was released, you didn't have throngs of Internet experts.

00:26:45:18 - 00:26:46:14

Cullen

Yes. Yeah.

00:26:46:22 - 00:26:48:05

Clark

Wacky, wacky people do.

00:26:48:05 - 00:26:48:22

Cullen

And people on.

00:26:48:22 - 00:27:09:08

Clark

Reddit or people on Reddit and blogs and all these things. So, you know, there were there was a lot less conversation in that sense. There was a lot of watercooler conversation. There was a lot of, you know, actually more so, I think, than today, because I think that films like this were much more cultural touchstones than they are today.

00:27:10:19 - 00:27:29:07

Clark

But as far as like in the media, you know, I would be curious to see if that was ever something that was brought up and what little bit of criticism or not criticism in a negative sense. But I just mean, you know, criticism as and just like film critics writing. Yeah, and I read about this film. I didn't see anybody mention anything about the historical.

00:27:29:07 - 00:27:29:22

Cullen

No, exactly.

00:27:29:22 - 00:27:41:21

Clark

Yeah. This film and and that's interesting because it's you're right. I do get a sense that when these kinds of films are released today, there is often a conversation about the historical accuracy of it. And that's an interesting hypothesis.

00:27:41:21 - 00:27:46:06

Cullen

And if for no other reason than exactly like you said, where it's like it's a clickbait headline.

00:27:46:06 - 00:28:00:07

Clark

That people will click, Yeah, maybe that's maybe that's the explanation. But it's but that's an interesting hypothesis that you bring up, which is that, you know, it's long, successful theatrical run. I wonder if that did have an impact on its acceptance, you know, because I.

00:28:00:07 - 00:28:24:02

Cullen

Also I wonder, you know, so often when things are and again, I wasn't around when this was made, um, nor was I around obviously, when the stage play was going on. I wonder how, you know, was it because you can have things that were massive on stage today that are adapted to movies and so many people don't realize that they were stage plays right?

00:28:24:02 - 00:28:32:06

Cullen

So I wonder how common, how common the knowledge was that it was first stage play. I guess the opening credits do say based on the stage play, but.

00:28:32:15 - 00:28:34:06

Clark

That does give it away. Yeah, so.

00:28:34:06 - 00:28:36:19

Cullen

But I mean, even so, like, you know, people just don't.

00:28:37:06 - 00:28:37:16

Clark

Pay attention.

00:28:37:18 - 00:28:47:21

Cullen

Pay attention to that. So yeah, I wonder if. Yeah, I know. And it's just sort of like an interesting kind of thing about like the cultural idea of, of, like accuracy in things and I Yeah.

00:28:48:17 - 00:28:49:05

Clark

That's an, I.

00:28:49:05 - 00:28:51:07

Cullen

Don't have a, I don't have a set answer on it.

00:28:51:07 - 00:29:18:12

Clark

Oh it's just an interesting question and it's an interesting observation because I do, I do think it's important. And again, I think there is this, you know, this this kind of fundamental artistic question, which is you know, fact versus truth. Yeah. And that's what that speaks to. I, I mean, I, I, you know, I'm curious, you know, like what your thoughts are because I know that you're you you often approach a film from a very light kind of cinematographic.

00:29:18:19 - 00:29:19:13

Clark

That's not a word.

00:29:19:13 - 00:29:21:05

Cullen

Yeah, that's a visual. Yeah.

00:29:21:05 - 00:29:31:20

Clark

I'm kind of curious what your thoughts are on the cinematography of this film. I mean, in my mind it's pretty simply shot. It's yeah, anamorphic, which I like, but I know you've got some thoughts. I want to hear what?

00:29:31:20 - 00:29:36:23

Cullen

Yeah. So I think that the movie looks really good. I mean yeah it's, it's, it's not.

00:29:36:23 - 00:29:40:01

Clark

It's beautifying production design. The production design through.

00:29:40:01 - 00:29:50:19

Cullen

The production designs, brilliant costumes. And I think even, you know, I think that even the this is one of those instances where I'm like the I think the cinematography looks really good, but I disagree with, with the choice being made with.

00:29:50:23 - 00:29:51:09

Clark

Interior.

00:29:51:09 - 00:30:32:04

Cullen

Design shot. So it's shot on anamorphic. Yeah. And to me aspect ratio and things like that matter so much in in of course I'm sure you would agree and you know it's a personal conversation about like the that the context of the story what you know that something as simple as aspect ratio matters so much. Yeah and and you know the choice of lenses and too so to me anamorphic lenses are a very modern you know modern in the grand scheme of things choice and you know if you think of anamorphic and just in case you know, somebody isn't quite familiar with the term, an anamorphic lens is basically what is used to shoot like

00:30:32:04 - 00:30:43:10

Cullen

a widescreen movie. So in the background you'll notice that the the out-of-focus areas are a little bit more of a la and it squeezes the image and there's a lot of technical sides. But basically it's widescreen. It's it's a you know.

00:30:43:10 - 00:30:55:17

Clark

And you get like you generally like if you're just a viewer and you're like without getting a technical stuff where that kind of like matter of factly means that you'll see like you've ever seen die hard and you see those like the flares that are like.

00:30:55:17 - 00:30:57:18

Cullen

Blue. Yeah, the horizontal streak.

00:30:57:18 - 00:31:03:05

Clark

Horizontally streak out. That's, that's a sign of an anamorphic lens and anamorphic.

00:31:03:17 - 00:31:04:06

Cullen

Sorry, go ahead.

00:31:04:06 - 00:31:09:17

Clark

I was just going to say you'll also generally see like a softening of focus around the edges of the frame.

00:31:09:17 - 00:31:31:01

Cullen

That's bare and really a lot of like barrel distortion, barrel distortion. You know, the edges aren't necessarily straight lines. There's kind of like a distortion on them. Right? And so that was used so much during the seventies and they kind of came about in the fifties, but they really, you know, took off in their use in the late sixties, seventies and eighties and kind of became almost like a staple of like blockbuster action cinema.

00:31:31:09 - 00:31:31:15

Clark

Right.

00:31:32:21 - 00:32:00:12

Cullen

And, you know, to me, I think that that a choice like that doesn't really match the subject matter, mostly because of the fact that I think that, you know, you can make such a powerful choice with what just simply what lenses you're choosing to shoot on in that like the way that I the way that that culture thinks back on, you know, the 1700s, the 1800s, so on and so forth is is only through paintings.

00:32:00:12 - 00:32:19:13

Cullen

You know, photography was only really coming about in the 1800s. Yeah. You know, all the everything we see of Mozart or of his life or of that time is paintings. Right. And so I think that using something that is so like anamorphic which is so linked to cinema, so which to.

00:32:19:15 - 00:32:20:04

Clark

Well it's art.

00:32:20:04 - 00:32:30:10

Cullen

There's not really anything else like it even photography is so there are people who do anamorphic photography, but it's very rare. It's much more of a kind of like a, a thing to do versus like.

00:32:30:15 - 00:32:31:14

Clark

A gimmick almost.

00:32:31:14 - 00:33:00:16

Cullen

Yeah, Yeah. So I think that to me, the choice to shoot this anamorphic was doesn't really not again, not that it looks bad in any way, but it doesn't really match up with the subject matter. It doesn't really do anything to me to bring me into the world of this movie. I think that if this movie was shot spiritually, that you would get a much more painterly kind of style out of it, that it would match the subject matter, it would match the production design.

00:33:00:22 - 00:33:39:18

Clark

Sort of make sure I understand what you're saying. Like, so in your mind, what your if I'm understanding you correctly, is that you're you kind of feel like the Lynch choices anachronistic to the Yeah. Subject basically it's like you're saying that since our only representations of this era are through paintings to use something so specific and, and that, and that introduces artifacts that are unique to the technology of cinema that you feel like that's, you know, when the choice could have been made to use a spherical lens which would have much less obvious or, you.

00:33:39:18 - 00:33:40:07

Cullen

Know, like.

00:33:40:09 - 00:33:40:21

Clark

Artifacts.

00:33:40:21 - 00:33:42:11

Cullen

Cinematic artifacts. Yeah.

00:33:42:11 - 00:33:47:00

Clark

So you feel like that would have been a more, a more appropriate kind of. I mean, I think there's.

00:33:47:08 - 00:34:06:20

Cullen

There's sort of two kind of comparisons I can make to. One of them is like, for example, Coppola decided not to use any Zoom lenses on The Godfather because the Zoom lenses weren't around in the in the era that the movie is set. And so he made a specific choice that he wanted to shoot it, you know, spherical because also anamorphic wasn't a thing that came out in the fifties.

00:34:07:22 - 00:34:28:22

Cullen

So he made a choice to shoot spherical on only primes so that the the language of the lenses matched the era. Spielberg chose to shoot Schindler's List in black and white, primarily black and white. Of course, the modern day stuff is is colored, but chose to shoot that in black and white because, you know, his decision on that was that the the footage that you see of that the photos that you see of the events of the Holocaust are black and white.

00:34:28:22 - 00:34:51:17

Cullen

And so it brings you into this world. Not that there obviously haven't been movies made about World War Two and stuff that are not anamorphic or, you know, there were plenty of anamorphic World War Two movies. There are plenty of color World War two movies. But I think that it's one of those things where you you, you know, when you're thinking about these choices, I think that it's again, it's one of those examples where it's like, I think the movie looks great.

00:34:51:17 - 00:35:08:01

Cullen

Amadeus. I think it looks really, really fantastic. I just would have made a different decision if I was sure, you know, in that chair at that time, which I'm not going to pretend that I could make a movie as great as Amadeus, but if I were to, you know, have made this movie himself, he would.

00:35:08:01 - 00:35:08:22

Clark

Have made a different choice.

00:35:08:23 - 00:35:11:12

Cullen

Random world I would have. Yeah. I would have made the the choice.

00:35:11:17 - 00:35:31:15

Clark

I mean, that's it's an interesting it's an interesting way to look at it for sure. And I think, you know, just to play a little bit of a devil's advocate, I feel like I think it's perfectly in line with the spirit of the film, which, you know, the subject matter itself is totally fictionalized. And you have such a modernization of language.

00:35:31:17 - 00:35:34:17

Clark

Clearly, people did not speak this way, nor.

00:35:34:17 - 00:35:35:12

Cullen

Yes, nor.

00:35:35:12 - 00:35:35:23

Clark

Are there.

00:35:36:03 - 00:35:37:04

Cullen

In American accents.

00:35:37:06 - 00:36:04:21

Clark

Even remotely appropriate, right? Yeah. So there's a tremendous amount of poetic license there. And and I feel like the anamorphic lenses, I think they look beautiful. But I also think beyond that, they're beneficial because you have so many scenes that take place, these performances, these huge scenes take place in these opera houses, in these theaters. And there's just so much going on.

00:36:04:21 - 00:36:35:16

Clark

There's these, you know, elaborate costumes and huge high wigs and chandelier is and, you know, it's just that the frame is just filled with so much data. And I think the benefit of the anamorphic lens in this situation where it kind of brings some of those more peripheral, you know, visual contents, a little bit out of focus. I think it actually helps kind of bring your eye to the to the subject matter that's important.

00:36:36:20 - 00:37:03:17

Clark

So I think it helps a little bit, you know, guided by and kind of keeping you from being so overwhelmed. And because some of these set and there is a lot of we haven't talked about music yet, but there's you know, there's an extended like at length long musical performances that are captured here. You know, I mean, it's where the camera is almost you know, it's like as if, you know, it's like like the earliest of films where basically the camera was just set in, you know, where an audience would sit in a theater.

00:37:03:17 - 00:37:19:13

Clark

And we see the whole stage and and it just plays out before us. There's a little bit of that going on. Obviously, we have editing and I mean, I'm not saying that's to that extreme. We definitely do to have different angles on the cameras moving around a bit, but there are, you know, there's a lot of that in here.

00:37:19:13 - 00:37:31:19

Clark

There's a lot of extended performance. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, I mean, my goodness, you know, like what a what a like an embarrassment of riches to have Mozart's music to draw from, Right.

00:37:32:08 - 00:37:33:03

Cullen

Oh God. Yeah.

00:37:33:07 - 00:38:02:18

Clark

For that. I mean, that clearly the film benefits greatly from having Mozart's music as its soundtrack. And I think, you know, one of the things that I really do love about this film and I actually think that about just kind of compare just for a second, what was that movie with Gary Oldman about Beethoven, beloved? I think it was oh, I don't know if you've seen the film, but I was just going to say that this film, like Beloved, I think, does does one thing really well, and that is that Immortal.

00:38:02:18 - 00:38:03:05

Cullen

Beloved.

00:38:03:10 - 00:38:34:09

Clark

Immortal. All of it. That's it. Thank you so much that I don't think that film is anywhere near as good as this film. But but one of the things both films I think does really well is is really effectively in parts this absolutely our appreciation of the beauty of music to the audience. I mean like, you know, through Salieri, when we see him reading these scores and then the music that he's that he's reading, you know it we start to hear it, you know, in the in the score of the film.

00:38:34:23 - 00:38:48:19

Clark

And it's just you know, watching F Murray's performance and listening to this music, it's like, I mean, jeez. And, you know, I think even if you're not a music fan, you can't help but to be moved, you know? Yeah.

00:38:49:07 - 00:39:04:10

Cullen

Well, I think one of the most brilliant things that they do is the rewrite of Salieri's, like entry March. And I think that that that brings somebody who may not have any interest in classical music or, you know, be in any way interested in the distinction between more.

00:39:04:10 - 00:39:05:05

Clark

Educated giving.

00:39:05:05 - 00:39:26:17

Cullen

Versus his his contemporaries. It immediately shows, you know, you've got salieri's music that sounds quite typical of classical music at the time. Yeah. And then and then to offset that and to kind of prove to you how groundbreaking Mozart was for the time they, he, he rewrites it. And then you got you're much more energetic and you know how much more functional and and well how.

00:39:26:18 - 00:39:49:08

Clark

A layperson can Yeah I think you know that's a brilliant that's a brilliant observation. They do this right off the bat in the end, nearly the very beginning of the film. And so it's, you know, hey, if you are unfamiliar with Mozart, if you are unfamiliar, which of course most people would be with Salieri if you're if you're a total layperson, if you don't have really any education in classical music, you're right.

00:39:49:08 - 00:40:19:06

Clark

They they lay this out so that anybody can see, you know, the difference. And it may be a little unfair to Salieri, this example they use. But, you know, it's super, super simple, you know, kind of March or kind of, you know, introduction piece of music that yeah, what's Mozart gets his hands on it you know it's yeah there's all this flourish and fun and it goes from a stiff, stodgy piece of music that's not very interesting at all to this you know, fun piece of music with personality and joy in it.

00:40:19:15 - 00:40:29:13

Clark

So you're right, They do a great job of using music to to color and illustrate the contrast between the two characters right off the bat.

00:40:29:13 - 00:40:55:17

Cullen

Mm hmm. Yeah. It's incredibly you know, it's also, I think when you see the the reactions of, um, I'm forgetting who is who. Like, who's the first guy that Mozart is working for? Who's the original guy that he that he kind of leaves to work for? Yeah, well, actually, Roman Emperor.

00:40:55:18 - 00:40:59:12

Clark

I tried. Gosh, you know, now. Now you're going to put me to task here because I think I.

00:40:59:12 - 00:41:21:02

Cullen

Yeah, I can't remember the period. So he's. But it's interesting. He's working for this other man at the beginning, wasn't it. And I like the, the, the idea that you've got all these people who, um, kind of despise him as a person but want him there for his talent like that. Refused to get rid of him simply because of his talent.

00:41:21:02 - 00:41:45:20

Cullen

And that Salieri cannot stand that, but also totally understands it and that he is also one of those people. You know, Salieri is in every way sitting there, admiring every time he sees Mozart's music and is is going nuts about it. And, you know, just when he's reading the papers that that Constance brings him and he drops them and he says, you know, it's magnificent.

00:41:45:20 - 00:42:09:05

Cullen

And all this that you've just got this completely, I think, empathetic approach to the character, which is that it's like, yeah, he seemed like he was a total pain in the ass. And again, that's not the historically necessarily accurate version, but but in terms of the context of the movie that you're sitting there like this guy would have been, you know, very annoying to have around and yet it does such a great job.

00:42:09:05 - 00:42:37:06

Cullen

The film of presenting him, because every time the music plays, the movie focuses on the music, the movie focuses on his music. And so not only do the people in the film forget that he is, you know, difficult to deal with for those, you know, 10 minutes of music that's playing. But but the audience also just kind of is brought into that world as well because you're kind of sitting there going, Oh, yeah, this guy was, you know, a brilliant musician and composer.

00:42:38:16 - 00:43:03:16

Cullen

But I do, I do like that that that you've got you know, it's not necessarily a huge part of the movie, but you do see this idea that like these these higher ups, these kings, these emperors, etc., put up with the, you know, kind of brazen back talking and and, you know, rudeness and of etiquette from him simply because of the fact that they they admired his work so much.

00:43:03:20 - 00:43:29:11

Cullen

And there's this kind of funny little like almost father son relationship with any figure of authority in this movie where he has you know, Mozart has no issue talking back to to royalty and talking back to the Holy Roman emperor himself. And, you know, I think it just makes, again, the movie a lot more accessible and weirdly makes the character of Mozart in this movie much more.

00:43:29:21 - 00:43:39:06

Cullen

You know, the movie is does a very good job of making you empathetic of each character, which I think is is, you know, often tough to do. And, you know, in a period piece like this.

00:43:40:10 - 00:44:05:18

Clark

I you know, one of the things talking about music and and I think what a what an integral I mean obviously but how well it's used here is I think you know near the end of the film, you know, there's like big chunks of this film where not much else is going on. And if it weren't. Yes. And there's this beautiful interplay of the discussion of the music and then the music coming in.

00:44:05:18 - 00:44:38:23

Clark

And I think, you know, the scene where Mozart is in bed ill and Salieri is taking dictation and helping him write the music that he's hearing. You know, if you if you just kind of what if you were to watch it without the sound on, you would see that there's this long stretch of time where you've just got a character in bed and a character sitting next to him, and we just go back and forth and, you know, considering it's a film, it's moving pictures, you know, there's not a lot being told and not a lot of story being told visually.

00:44:39:11 - 00:45:02:12

Clark

But the music sure does come in and do a lot of heavy lifting and really does it well. And this beautiful interplay, you know, with Schaffer script and the writing, I mean, I can imagine I would just imagine as an actor, if you were to get the script and you're looking at the scene and, you know, and all the dialog, it's like, you know, it's just this this kind of music lingo, which is like, okay, you know, start on a minor.

00:45:02:21 - 00:45:10:12

Clark

A minor? Yeah, a minor, of course. Okay, Then go to D, you know, I mean, it's you know what I mean? If you were to read it on the page, right.

00:45:11:03 - 00:45:12:14

Cullen

It's like, Yeah, yeah, there's.

00:45:12:14 - 00:45:21:05

Clark

Hardly anything there. But, but when, but it's again it is a big part of this of course is this, Both actors performances are outstanding.

00:45:22:01 - 00:45:22:20

Cullen

Use of music.

00:45:23:00 - 00:45:44:18

Clark

But, but that's Yeah. And then use and so that we can hear we're actually like it's illustrating to us okay what are they talking about. And it's kind of this fun little thing of getting to be almost, you know, in the room as Mozart is writing. And I mean, I can't read music. I would imagine that most people, most audience would not be able to to read music or understand most of what they would be talking about.

00:45:44:18 - 00:45:45:19

Cullen

So the terminology.

00:45:45:20 - 00:46:02:00

Clark

And the terminology, which of course, they keep it very simple, but nonetheless, I mean, we wouldn't be able to actually hear what they're talking about. So it's just I mean, it's it's it's just a super effective way to use music in the film. And it does it numerous times. And whether it's building character.

00:46:02:00 - 00:46:08:06

Cullen

Or it's one of those kind of like ingenious things because it's very simple. It's a very simple choice. Yeah, but it just works so well.

00:46:08:06 - 00:46:18:10

Clark

That well, I mean, in the hands of these performers too. I mean, I know we touched on it, but Kate, I just want to I mean, look, I think everybody's good in the film, but F Murray Abraham just knocks it out of the park.

00:46:19:15 - 00:46:22:04

Cullen

I it plays disdain like no other.

00:46:22:17 - 00:46:51:01

Clark

I mean, he really knocks it out of the park. And it's interesting in I can't you know I can't remember if this was the commentary or there's like a little like making of documentary. I think it's actually in the making of documentary that's on the Blu ray for this film where and I'm kind of surprised that Milos said this because it, you know, you could potentially take this is a little bit insulting, but he talks about how he felt like F Murray Abraham would be the ideal actor for this role.

00:46:51:01 - 00:47:16:17

Clark

I mean, not only of course, he's a great actor. Yes. But he was like he said that he felt like F Murray Abraham actually had these qualities, that he kind of was Salieri like that he, you know, was kind of full of ego and pride and kind of approached his, you know, that kind of embodied some of these things that that Milos wanted Salieri to represent in this film.

00:47:16:22 - 00:47:18:19

Clark

And I'm kind of surprised he said that out loud.

00:47:18:19 - 00:47:20:23

Cullen

Oh, yeah, that's the documentary.

00:47:20:23 - 00:47:47:20

Clark

Because it's like you very rarely ever hear, you know, because it could it be easy to take that in a derogatory way, you know? Yeah. So I was a little taken aback that he said that. But it makes sense. And I think you can kind of see that. I think, you know, obviously, I don't know if Murray Abraham, but I could certainly imagine, I mean, having recognized that in myself, you know, and in so many artist, I could completely see how that could be just a trait that's inherent in that actor.

00:47:48:07 - 00:47:54:00

Clark

Mm hmm. And, you know, and Milos pulled that out of him even further in the performance. But, I mean, I really just think.

00:47:54:00 - 00:48:04:12

Cullen

You know, is there is there anything in the other the director's commentary about their relationship that the two leads relationship during production?

00:48:05:18 - 00:48:26:02

Clark

You know not not that I recall not specific except except this, you know, so as we had kind of previously discussed, you know, F Murray Abraham, they they shot all of this stuff where he's older and he's in the asylum after his suicide attempt. And they shot all of that first.

00:48:26:11 - 00:48:26:18

Cullen

Over.

00:48:27:05 - 00:48:48:05

Clark

Over first couple two or three weeks. And, you know, that that allowed them to kind of set up logistics for other things while they were shooting. So they did that first. And so I think they kind of talked a little bit about how that that kind of isolated him a little bit from the rest of the production. He wasn't, you know, working with Mozart.

00:48:48:05 - 00:49:11:00

Clark

He you know, or with, you know, Tom, the performer playing Mozart. So I think, you know, there probably was a little bit of that isolation or kind of, you know, that probably did lend itself a little bit to the, you know, the the like conflict or butting heads that might have existed on camera, you know, But but other than that, they didn't really go into too much detail.

00:49:11:09 - 00:49:26:04

Clark

But I just got I mean, I feel like that I mean, as somebody who's who has has acted before and I am a big fan, I can only imagine having this role and such juicy all those monologues.

00:49:26:04 - 00:49:44:04

Cullen

Yeah, sure. Yeah, I can you imagine all the I mean, again, given all just like the points where you just act visually, you know, the points where he's just like a tertiary element of a scene and he's just standing, you know, I'm thinking all the moments when, when Omar Olmert, Mozart is talking to Olmert. Oh.

00:49:44:04 - 00:49:45:23

Clark

MARTIN Are you trying to.

00:49:45:23 - 00:49:46:06

Cullen

Speak.

00:49:46:06 - 00:49:50:03

Clark

Backwards? Are you trying to speak backwards Like like like in the film?

00:49:50:12 - 00:50:20:08

Cullen

Yes, exactly. Yeah. But when they're when they're having that conversation with the emperor, when when Mozart is kind of introduced and that that Salieri is very much just kind of like a tertiary element. But you still there's so much energy coming from him and you can feel like every choice that he's making is, is, you know, so present in so clear, which is, I think, a really tough thing to do to be sort of a part of an ensemble in a scene and still play up the elements that you want to play up and have them come across clearly.

00:50:21:04 - 00:50:22:07

Cullen

But he does it super well.

00:50:22:10 - 00:50:43:14

Clark

Yeah, I mean, I think everybody's great in the film and, you know, every Abraham definitely gets the biggest, you know, I think, chunk of praise. But Tom Hall's is really wonderful to it. I honestly I'm a little bit surprised. I mean, you had talked about how he kind of made a shift from acting to producing and directing for the stage where he has actually had a ton of success.

00:50:43:14 - 00:51:07:20

Clark

I mean, he's been nominated or won several Tony Awards and Drama Desk awards. Yeah. So he's definitely been successful on the stage. You know, as a producer director. Yeah. But I was almost surprised. You know, I think I remember even as a kid wondering, like, why am I not seeing movies with this guy in it? Yeah, because I thought he did such a great job.

00:51:07:20 - 00:51:19:11

Clark

And to have, you know, the, the title role in and such a hugely critically and commercially successful film, I was a little bit surprised that I didn't see.

00:51:19:11 - 00:51:22:01

Cullen

More of to be nominated and and you know.

00:51:23:05 - 00:51:23:16

Clark

So but.

00:51:23:16 - 00:51:27:08

Cullen

He chose to retire so yeah interacting with him.

00:51:27:09 - 00:51:32:22

Clark

Yeah. Interesting. I would be curious to kind of ask him or wonder why what went down with that?

00:51:32:22 - 00:51:45:16

Cullen

Well, I mean, I guess I mean, that could just be like that. For example, I always enjoyed acting as well, but I have not really much desire to to do it as a career could be, you know, even though I really enjoyed it.

00:51:45:16 - 00:51:50:06

Clark

And maybe he was just longing for greatness, like Sally is exactly what he could do.

00:51:50:16 - 00:51:54:07

Cullen

Yeah, he fit in perfectly. Life imitates art.

00:51:54:12 - 00:51:57:01

Clark

Yeah. There you go. There you go. Life definitely.

00:51:57:02 - 00:52:01:02

Cullen

Or maybe it was the loss. Yeah, it was the loss of the Academy Award to Sally area.

00:52:01:02 - 00:52:02:06

Clark

And I mean, that had to be.

00:52:02:06 - 00:52:03:03

Cullen

Roles are reversed.

00:52:03:11 - 00:52:17:02

Clark

Yeah. I guess in kind of a final irony there. Yeah. Yeah. That, that was probably difficult I would imagine, you know, for a film where so many other people are winning in their positions too to have a best picture and, and, and then, well.

00:52:17:03 - 00:52:20:15

Cullen

I wonder how many times has that happened where I don't have to Best.

00:52:20:16 - 00:52:22:06

Clark

Picture without a actor or.

00:52:22:06 - 00:52:24:01

Cullen

Well, or better lead actors.

00:52:24:01 - 00:52:31:21

Clark

Well, yeah, that's what I was going to say. So he didn't win. But that was because he lost to, you know, the film was kind of competing against itself.

00:52:31:21 - 00:52:41:13

Cullen

And exciting because of course, something very often. Is there a best actor, best supporting actor, best actress, best supporting actress from the same movie. But very rarely are there two best actors.

00:52:41:13 - 00:53:03:09

Clark

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. I would imagine that is rare. I don't know the answer to that, but I would imagine that that has not happened too often and that's got to feel weird. I guess that that's kind of a continuation. You know, like you said, art in life, it's like the the competition that existed in the film between the two characters kind of actually ended up existing in real life between the actors.

00:53:03:16 - 00:53:06:06

Clark

And this time, Salieri wins out.

00:53:06:20 - 00:53:07:08

Cullen

Exactly.

00:53:07:10 - 00:53:10:14

Clark

Yeah. Well, I guess on that note, we'll wrap it up.

00:53:10:20 - 00:53:11:02

Cullen

Yeah.

00:53:11:12 - 00:53:14:11

Clark

But I've enjoyed talking about Amadeus with you, sir.

00:53:14:11 - 00:53:15:12

Cullen

And a lot of fun. Yeah, it's.

00:53:15:12 - 00:53:24:20

Clark

Been a lot of fun. And I hope everybody out there. You enjoyed listening to it as well. We wish you a most wonderful couple of weeks. Until next time. We'll see you later.

00:53:24:21 - 00:53:27:03

Cullen

Bye bye.

Episode - 052 - My Neighbor Totoro

Clark

Hello, everybody, and welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast cast. With me, as always, is my fellow soldier of cinema, Mr. Cullen McFater.

00:00:23:21 - 00:00:24:07

Cullen

Hello.

00:00:24:09 - 00:00:25:03

Clark

So what's up?

00:00:25:03 - 00:00:27:05

Cullen

Too much? Not much. Been a while.

00:00:27:12 - 00:00:56:00

Clark

It has been a while. I mean, not that our listeners would know, but because we are release schedule is often different than our recordings schedule. But it has been a little bit of a break. Oh, yeah. By the way. And I'm Clark. Coffey? Just in case you didn't know. Yeah, I've been away. I've been away for three weeks in France and you've been busy and and you're going to actually get ready soon to go on your own wild world, world wide y wild.

00:00:56:00 - 00:00:56:21

Cullen

Worldwide.

00:00:56:21 - 00:00:59:06

Clark

Wild, wild, wild, worldwide adventure.

00:00:59:06 - 00:01:00:17

Cullen

We could talk about that later. The world.

00:01:00:23 - 00:01:18:07

Clark

But for now and episode 52, we're going to discuss My Neighbor Totoro, which is your pic from 1988, directed by Hey, I'll. Hayao Miyazaki. Hayao Miyazaki.

00:01:19:22 - 00:01:21:08

Cullen

You did call that. You predicted it.

00:01:21:09 - 00:01:22:04

Clark

I did.

00:01:22:04 - 00:01:23:13

Cullen

I did. I put money on it.

00:01:24:02 - 00:01:46:03

Clark

And I always feel so bad because obviously the reason that these are sometimes difficult to pronounce is because that there's are names that aren't common in my culture, and then it makes me feel culturally inadequate. And then I feel like it's also rude. So I apologize, but. Moving on from that. But yeah, so this is this is your pick.

00:01:46:03 - 00:02:17:03

Clark

I think this is the first animated film that we've ever done. Is that the case? This is our first animated film, so I'm really excited and interested to see how this this discussion goes. I'll just I'll do like a big disclaimer here real quick, which is that although I very much like animated films, I, I am not even anywhere remotely as educated, or at least I feel inadequate almost when discussing animated films because I know so little about the process of how animated films are made.

00:02:17:19 - 00:02:33:16

Clark

I've never made one myself, whereas of course, you know, I've shot live action stuff many times before, so I feel like I'm so much more equipped to discuss a live action film. Whereas with an animated film, I really feel out of my depth so well.

00:02:33:16 - 00:02:39:02

Cullen

I mean, I'm the same way I yeah, I know next to nothing in terms of the technical aspects.

00:02:39:06 - 00:02:43:04

Clark

Of But we can still watch a set and discuss it as an audience, right?

00:02:43:05 - 00:02:50:21

Cullen

Yeah, I did. I did do a lot of stop motion as a kid but that by looking more similar to the live action than Yeah, yeah.

00:02:50:21 - 00:03:20:10

Clark

No, I mean I didn't do much but I did do some and my stop motion films consisted of me taking my toys like my G.I. Joe and Transformer and He-Man Action Figures, which might date me just a little bit there, especially with the He-Man stuff. And basically I remember I would like, like attach like a like a pencil, like I could glue like a pencil to their head or something, or I would try to like, hold them, like out of frame.

00:03:20:18 - 00:03:31:19

Clark

And I would basically like, you know, barely, you know, like, you know, it was not even most of it wasn't even actually stop motion. I think I only did that once or twice. Mine was mostly like puppet team, mate.

00:03:31:20 - 00:03:32:11

Cullen

Oh, yeah.

00:03:32:13 - 00:03:37:23

Clark

That's what you would more accurately called. My work would have been a puppeteer. Usually it's actually fingers.

00:03:37:23 - 00:03:49:10

Cullen

I do like all of my early movies as a kid were all stop motion. I did a lot like Lego stop motion and like, use the action figures and stuff. I love. Yeah. And yeah, but that's, that's the closest to animation I did.

00:03:49:10 - 00:03:57:17

Clark

Too far off. But how did you do? How did you do a frame by frame then? Because I'm assuming you had like tape, right? You had a video camera. Is that.

00:03:57:20 - 00:04:06:02

Cullen

How did you know? So yeah, well, I used to, I mean, when I started in was using it like the video camera. It would just be a really quick presses record and really quick presses. Yeah. Because, because.

00:04:06:02 - 00:04:07:14

Clark

You can't really get an actual. Yeah.

00:04:07:14 - 00:04:18:02

Cullen

You can get a still. Yeah. Yeah. And then I got a like a really, really early canon. I think they were called like cyber shot back in the day was like.

00:04:18:11 - 00:04:18:14

Clark

An.

00:04:18:16 - 00:04:19:13

Cullen

Early one of the.

00:04:19:13 - 00:04:20:06

Clark

Early digital.

00:04:20:09 - 00:04:37:15

Cullen

Like digital cameras or, or my mom got it, I didn't get it and so I used to use that. And at that point then of course, you can just take pictures. Although my first stop motion ever was using LEGO released a camera. It was a webcam that you could put into your computer via. Um. Oh, yeah.

00:04:37:15 - 00:04:39:19

Clark

You're so much younger than me. You're like, Yeah.

00:04:39:19 - 00:04:40:09

Cullen

You're a kid.

00:04:40:09 - 00:04:41:11

Clark

You had webcams.

00:04:41:17 - 00:04:43:00

Cullen

Although these things looked about. Yeah.

00:04:43:07 - 00:04:45:13

Clark

When I was a kid, we didn't have the web and rate.

00:04:46:01 - 00:04:47:00

Cullen

That's good point. Yeah.

00:04:47:13 - 00:04:47:23

Clark

Yeah.

00:04:48:11 - 00:05:04:17

Cullen

So yeah, I was this probably when I was eight. Seven. Yeah. I went to, I went to a film stop motion camp and that was where I did my first stop motion ever And I shouldn't say my first movies for stop motion. My first movies were much like yours, you know, video camera with the action figures in my.

00:05:04:18 - 00:05:18:23

Cullen

You're like my hands off happening. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then I got to stop motion and and but I did in terms of animation do a unit of like adobe fireworks at school. When I was in high school, I.

00:05:18:23 - 00:05:19:08

Clark

Never had.

00:05:19:08 - 00:05:35:20

Cullen

Contact. And so I had very, very limited understanding of, you know, the frame by frame, which it will get into later when we get the technical elements. Because there's one specific thing that I learned from that that I think plays into this conversation. But I do want to also get the spoiler out of the way. A big twist.

00:05:36:00 - 00:05:41:07

Cullen

Yeah, which is that I and I assume that when I suggest this movie in case, you know, I assume for people who.

00:05:41:07 - 00:05:43:10

Clark

The big twist is the campus has balls.

00:05:43:21 - 00:05:47:18

Cullen

Back. Campus has balls. Yes. That's the we might as well end it right there.

00:05:48:03 - 00:05:54:23

Clark

Oh, gosh. Now we're going to have to put it mature on our explicit. Was that was that really what you were going to say?

00:05:54:23 - 00:06:15:05

Cullen

That wasn't what you were going to say. But for people who've been watching a long time, I can I can, you know, sort of get into figured out that that we you know, we go back and forth on our choices that Clarke watches a movie a week and I'll choose a movie you know and so I assume Clarke that when I chose this movie, you had probably, you know, thought that I had either watched this movie when I was a kid.

00:06:15:05 - 00:06:15:23

Clark

Or, yeah.

00:06:15:23 - 00:06:20:19

Cullen

You know, had an experience with it. But no, this is a movie that I watched the first time in January of this year.

00:06:20:21 - 00:06:35:08

Clark

Yeah. So I was totally surprised by that because I yeah, I mean, obviously, I know you didn't watch it when it came out because it came out in 88. Yeah. So before I was born. But, but yeah, I did, I did assume that you probably had a relationship with this film that went back when you were much younger.

00:06:35:08 - 00:06:40:20

Clark

So I am pretty surprised that you had only just recently seen this film.

00:06:41:06 - 00:06:48:18

Cullen

Yeah. So I mean, and that was the thing is that I, it was kind of twofold for me. One was that we hadn't done animation yet.

00:06:49:00 - 00:06:49:17

Clark

Mm hmm. Yep.

00:06:50:00 - 00:06:51:02

Cullen

And I thought it'd be interesting.

00:06:51:07 - 00:06:51:15

Clark

Yeah.

00:06:51:23 - 00:06:57:06

Cullen

Just to see what we have to say about it. And you picked a good one. I mean, technically proficient in terms of animation or.

00:06:57:09 - 00:06:57:14

Clark

Right.

00:06:57:18 - 00:07:11:16

Cullen

Super knowledgeable about the craft of animation. I think it, you know, it again, it just kind of puts us more into the shoes of like an average audience member, right? Much more than somebody looking on it with the eye of, of a creator in that way.

00:07:11:18 - 00:07:12:04

Clark

Yeah.

00:07:13:18 - 00:07:36:09

Cullen

And the second reason that I wanted to was because this is again, one of those those like rare movies that I watched the first time as an adult. This is, you know, of course, on unabashedly, this is a children's movie. It's it's made for children. However, I was kind of blown away and I'd seen Ghibli movies before. It's seen Spirited Away and I'd seen.

00:07:36:09 - 00:07:36:22

Clark

Yep, me too.

00:07:36:23 - 00:07:54:15

Cullen

Okay. And all those Howl's Moving Castle Castle. And I was like, blown away by how inspired I was by this movie that that I started wanting to write, you know, my own. You know, I've always I've always had a desire to not solely make kids content, but I think that, like, making a children's movie will be a lot of fun.

00:07:54:15 - 00:08:12:21

Cullen

And I've always kind of wanted to do that. And this really, like, brought me into this mode of like where I've been plotting up this, this, this kid's movie. And it also just for a movie that I did not grow up with for a kids movie, I did not grow up with. I feel such a strong connection to this movie after having seen it, you know, four months ago for the first time.

00:08:13:01 - 00:08:15:03

Cullen

Yeah, I've watched it like four times since then.

00:08:15:07 - 00:08:15:17

Clark

Yeah.

00:08:16:04 - 00:08:18:02

Cullen

You know, something just really well.

00:08:18:04 - 00:08:18:12

Clark

Been I.

00:08:18:12 - 00:08:19:09

Cullen

Mean, with this movie.

00:08:19:09 - 00:08:27:10

Clark

And I'm interested too, because, I mean, I don't mean to say this in any kind of derogatory way, but you're not far removed from your childhood.

00:08:27:10 - 00:08:28:02

Cullen

No. I mean.

00:08:28:02 - 00:08:48:15

Clark

Relative to me, for example. Yeah, right. So it's interesting to me that that this film has such a nostalgic effect on you when you've not you know, you're a young adult and you're not too far removed from your childhood. So that's it. Yeah, I think. What do you think that is?

00:08:48:15 - 00:08:54:15

Cullen

I don't know. I mean, because we so we one of the first movies that we did when we were getting out of the Herzog kind of phase was E.T..

00:08:55:06 - 00:08:56:09

Clark

Oh, yeah. I think in that.

00:08:56:09 - 00:09:14:13

Cullen

Episode we just Right. Yeah. And I sort of said that like, you know, I grew up I was the younger sibling. Um, and I always like growing up with E.T., like with the movie. Always really, really related to Elliot in that movie. Yeah, sure. He's the younger sibling. He's kind of like, teased by his older brother and his friends.

00:09:14:13 - 00:09:14:19

Cullen

And I.

00:09:14:19 - 00:09:17:05

Clark

Related to him and I didn't even he, you know, Yeah.

00:09:17:08 - 00:09:39:08

Cullen

He's technically the middle child, but this his younger sisters is sort of more of a secondary character, that movie. Um, and it was the same thing here was like I, you know, of course this movie's about two sisters, Satsuki and Mae, and, you know, I watched this movie and I think that they're both really well written and well crafted and well-rounded characters.

00:09:39:08 - 00:09:48:06

Cullen

But like, there's something about Mae that I just feel like, you know, speaks to me. So, like, on such a profound and like, fundamental level.

00:09:48:07 - 00:09:55:22

Clark

Because, I mean, it's a four year old. I think she's like four years old. And so she's very, very young. But I.

00:09:55:22 - 00:10:18:21

Cullen

I remember the exact, you know, the feeling of like curiosity and just wanting to you know, I grew up outside of Toronto and there's like a big nature kind of not preserved, but there's like a very large forest. It's a canoe, a marsh down by the lake near my house. And I grew up a lot in there and like going down to the lake and there's always turtles and deer.

00:10:18:21 - 00:10:35:10

Cullen

And sometimes deer would be on my front lawn in the morning and things like that. And so he said, it's very, very, you know, insightful curiosity about the nature. And I don't even think, you know, as a kid you're not really thinking about it as nature. You're just thinking about it as like the surroundings of where you live.

00:10:35:19 - 00:11:01:04

Cullen

And watching. The way that may in this movie explores, you know, with like such a bravery to that. There's so many moments in, you know, in a lot of other movies that that are similar. You know, the opening of this movie is them getting to their house and they find out it's haunted and instead of their reaction being, you know, horrified, they're like, we're going to march around the house and figure out, get to the bottom of this.

00:11:01:04 - 00:11:02:17

Cullen

And then, well, it's a mixture.

00:11:02:23 - 00:11:07:01

Clark

It's a mixture of a little bit of fear, but excitement, curiosity.

00:11:08:03 - 00:11:08:21

Cullen

And mixture.

00:11:08:21 - 00:11:09:19

Clark

Of those things, which.

00:11:09:20 - 00:11:11:06

Cullen

So I think at that point it.

00:11:11:06 - 00:11:12:09

Clark

Just yeah, really speaks.

00:11:12:09 - 00:11:41:13

Cullen

To me on kind of like I really, really relate to just that feeling. And I'm sure that a lot of other people do too. Like, I don't think that, you know, I'm unique in having being a curious child. Sure. But I will say that this movie is unique in portraying children like that in sort of not dumbing it down and not simplify, saying the kids, you know, May is again, like we said, she's four years old and this and but she really acts like an authentic child.

00:11:41:13 - 00:11:54:07

Cullen

She's not like it doesn't feel like she's someone written by an older man. It feels like she's like a real, real and of course, she's, you know, animated. So it's not like there's there's a physical actor portraying this role.

00:11:54:10 - 00:11:56:05

Clark

Well, there is an actor portraying.

00:11:56:05 - 00:12:19:15

Cullen

The role, but I think about that physical sense. Yeah, Yeah. But you you just the the detail, the level of authenticity and the just truthfulness, I think in the way that these characters are written, in the way that they're animated, I think is is enough to really make me, you know I'm turning 24 very soon.

00:12:19:15 - 00:12:20:05

Clark

Old man.

00:12:20:05 - 00:12:40:09

Cullen

Month I know I'm elderly but the fact that a movie that I'm seeing for the first time at this age can make me so fundamentally relate to a four year old girl, right? It's like that. How does that happen? You know, like it just kind of speaks to the level of which this, I think, is.

00:12:40:10 - 00:12:40:19

Clark

Is.

00:12:41:05 - 00:12:43:19

Cullen

Just really, you know, purely genius in a way.

00:12:44:06 - 00:13:08:08

Clark

Well, I think, you know, obviously it's so so I'll rewind real quick to it to get myself up to speed with with where you're at, which is, you know, we kind of understand where, when and where and how you came to this film. So for me, I had seen other films, the Ghibli films I had seen, oh, Ogres, I think pretty much the same ones that you saw.

00:13:08:08 - 00:13:33:20

Clark

I've seen it. And my wife really likes these films, too. We usually will watch them together. We've seen, like, Kiki's delivery service, Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away, Howl's Moving Castle. So we've seen a handful of these films. So but I hadn't seen this film. I definitely heard of it because it it is regularly on like the top, you know, of the best animated films of all time list, right?

00:13:34:01 - 00:13:55:12

Clark

I mean, so this film is universally loved. You know, it's critically and commercially it's been very successful, which even in, you know, around the world, it's extremely is my understanding, it's extremely popular. And its characters are kind of part of the pop culture in Japan to much greater extent. There is.

00:13:55:12 - 00:13:57:04

Cullen

A there's a Totoro house, so.

00:13:57:17 - 00:13:58:03

Clark

There is.

00:13:58:12 - 00:13:59:16

Cullen

A built in. Yeah.

00:13:59:16 - 00:14:26:06

Clark

So so I mean, a lot of people I think feel very much the way you feel. You know, when I watched the film for the first time, I mean these are some of the biggest impressions that I had as well. You know, I'm about 20 years older than you, so it I experience it maybe a little bit differently, but, you know, very much I mean, immediately this this the the way I kind of translated it was this it's very much a film.

00:14:26:06 - 00:14:47:11

Clark

I think it's about exploration. It's about curiosity. And there isn't this overriding huge strong plot. It's not a plot driven film. It's not a conflict driven film. It's not a protagonist antagonist film. It's a lot of things we could talk about that's a little more. But, you know, these modern Pixar and Disney movies follow a pretty strict formula.

00:14:47:11 - 00:15:11:07

Clark

And that formula absolutely involves a protagonist, an antagonist. It involves the hero going through this, this challenge, and then coming out on the other side a stronger, better person, etc.. None of that happens in this film. This film is not about that. This film is really about in my mind, it's about exploration, it's about curiosity, and it's about a connection to your environment.

00:15:11:18 - 00:15:31:00

Clark

And for me, a really the nostalgic kind of connection I had with it was, yeah, I used to go to my parents farm, not my parents farm, I'm sorry, my grandparents farm. When I was a kid, we would it was maybe like a three, two or three hour drive, something like that to my grandparents farm. They they lived on a working farm.

00:15:31:00 - 00:15:55:08

Clark

They retired when I was, I think like ten or so, but they still lived on the farm. My parents, I'd go with my parents. Of course I would run around. It's just this huge rural area with like nothing but this, you know, house and then farmland everywhere, you know. But my grandparents had like, you know, so I would just like, run around on this farm all by myself when I was young.

00:15:55:19 - 00:15:59:20

Clark

And you just explore stuff, you know, you're like, well, what's over here? What's over there?

00:15:59:20 - 00:16:02:02

Cullen

And, you know, I'd pick up a stick and it's a source. Yeah.

00:16:02:07 - 00:16:24:21

Clark

Oh, my God. Yeah. And they used to burn their trash. So they had this, like, huge, like, you know, area where they burn trash. And it would be like all of these, like, treasures of, like, you know, old aerosol cans or like, tractor parts or, you know, all this stuff. And so, yeah, I mean, my God, in my mind, I'm like, you know, unadventurous for hours and hours and hours.

00:16:24:21 - 00:16:53:19

Clark

I'm myself, you know, from like dusk till dawn. You're just like, it's so I felt like a real connection to that, where it was like this combination of exploration and childhood imagination and turning everything into an adventure because it because it is new, right? When you're young, almost everything you experience is new and your imagination is vivid and and so it's this really beautiful combination of experiencing things for the first time, your imagination running wild with it.

00:16:54:18 - 00:17:46:12

Clark

So I felt that big time and also was really overwhelmingly charming and sincere and kind and, and soft in a way. Kind of. Yeah, but. But not saccharine, not fake. I think like emotionally authentic, which is what you had talked about. And and there is some melancholy in it with the sick mother, you know. So it's not it's not that that we've removed aspects of life that, you know, involve suffering or I mean that's there to challenge and loss is kind of in that but but yeah so it I sense all these things that you said and so it was really quite a like a pleasant, you know, not feel good but kind of, you

00:17:46:12 - 00:17:47:14

Clark

know, I guess nostalgia.

00:17:47:14 - 00:17:54:02

Cullen

It just it sort of feels like just kind of like experiencing like that's kind of the like the M.O. of the movie is just.

00:17:54:04 - 00:17:54:10

Clark

Know.

00:17:54:19 - 00:17:59:11

Cullen

That you're just you're experiencing these things with with these kids and.

00:17:59:23 - 00:18:14:08

Clark

A sense of wonder, you know, like a sense of wonder and a sense of like kind of, you know, and I had this thought I was like, God, you know, if I had kids. And for like a 10th of a second, I had this thought of like, oh, man, I'm kind of sad. I don't have kids yet. That would be a great thing.

00:18:14:08 - 00:18:23:17

Clark

We're like, I had a so my wife and I, we don't have children and we don't have plans to have children. But this film for like half a second, I was like, Who should I rethink that?

00:18:24:02 - 00:18:38:02

Cullen

It's in this movie. I totally feel that as well. Like this movie makes you like like just on a very weird level, almost like you want to be a parent. Yeah. Okay. You know what? So, so I think.

00:18:38:02 - 00:18:46:18

Clark

So idealized, like the father daughter relationship is very idealized. The rural setting is very idealized and everyone's happy.

00:18:46:18 - 00:18:47:15

Cullen

And, you know, there's.

00:18:47:15 - 00:19:00:23

Clark

This like sense of community and, and, and, and just yeah, I mean, you know, so in a sense, even though we do have the sick mother, but even that her illness is kind of idealized in a sense.

00:19:01:00 - 00:19:12:14

Cullen

It's I think I think the way the other thing too is that that it's it's everyone is you know, there's there's such a tranquility with the way that they deal with the problems. The film.

00:19:12:18 - 00:19:13:14

Clark

Is not in any good.

00:19:13:15 - 00:19:21:11

Cullen

Way. Again, there's no antagonist. There's no but, you know, even in the moments when, you know, the sisters are fighting or may the you.

00:19:21:11 - 00:19:21:22

Clark

Know, it's going to.

00:19:21:22 - 00:19:49:00

Cullen

Be thing, you know, it's going to be okay. But you also get to kind of see the process within which these kids deal with this stuff and kind of put it into perspective. You know, the moment when they're running home in the rain and Mae slips and falls and like face first into a puddle of mud and then stands up and is just kind of, you know, staring, starstruck at that, the fact that she just did that and then before she can even start crying sucks, Gabe comes and pulls her along because they got to go to the rain.

00:19:49:00 - 00:20:01:19

Cullen

And then 5 seconds later, Mae is kind of proud of herself for not having cried. Yeah, and it's like one of those things that, you know, everybody kind of remembers that. That feeling of like, I fell and scraped my knee and I didn't cry. And I'm so proud of myself.

00:20:01:19 - 00:20:02:03

Clark

Yeah.

00:20:02:08 - 00:20:34:15

Cullen

So it's it's so I think so simple and, and it's a really great, you know, if, if you have children, um, a really great, I think, way to show kids that like, you know, you can have issues in life and that's fine. You know, you can the best thing to do is to like, deal with those issues. I think it's very authentic in that way, and I know that then Miyazaki's kind of like overarching theme when when creating the movie was just that he wanted children to be able to say, like, it's wonderful to be alive.

00:20:34:19 - 00:20:55:08

Cullen

And and I think that that's I think that's the other thing about the the sort of darker elements of the film, which is, again, nothing too dark and the mother sick and the kids are, of course, dealing with it. The dad's in Tokyo working a lot. And so they're they're alone plenty of times. And, you know, there's a lot of scenes where it's like it just feels very authentic.

00:20:55:08 - 00:21:03:09

Cullen

In when Satsuki is at school and granny brings May they're not the real grandmother, but she's kind of like a, you know, babysitting the neighbors nearby.

00:21:03:09 - 00:21:04:01

Clark

An older neighbor.

00:21:04:01 - 00:21:29:00

Cullen

Yeah, my neighbor granny. And she brings me to the school and Mae is just like sort of crying because she just wanted to be with her sister at school. And she's, you know, obviously these kids are I think that the genius element of the writing in this movie is that they they understand that the kids are dealing with this stuff, but they treat it in the way that kids would treat it, which is not really being able to vocalize that and say that.

00:21:29:00 - 00:21:50:06

Cullen

So when the mother is, you know, unable to come home from the hospital and you've got the two kids fighting. And Mae's response is just to say that it's not fair and to start crying and they start the girls start yelling at each other and like, that's totally how a child would would react to that situation. They wouldn't they wouldn't express their feelings.

00:21:50:06 - 00:22:17:03

Cullen

They wouldn't express their emotions. The older sibling, of course, would get, you know, frustrated and just yell at the kid and call him a baby. And, you know, that that one scene that's like one of my favorite moments in the movie, just because it it's dealing with these things in such a just a gentle, authentic way that I think a lot of movies would make superfluous.

00:22:17:03 - 00:22:19:02

Cullen

They would make them kind of not superfluous.

00:22:20:01 - 00:22:22:03

Clark

Well, they would have They really fantastic.

00:22:22:12 - 00:22:23:08

Cullen

Yeah. And they would.

00:22:23:18 - 00:22:24:16

Clark

Often children.

00:22:25:04 - 00:22:28:22

Cullen

Would end with them talking to each other about why they felt that.

00:22:28:22 - 00:22:29:11

Clark

Like adult.

00:22:29:11 - 00:22:52:12

Cullen

There would be a very, you know, really early lesson and moral of the story whereas this really just it kind of I think on the inverse and I think this goes well with what you were saying about how it's like the characters don't really change too much through the movie, that it's more so about, you know, where you see a Pixar movie that's about like big change and overcoming obstacles and being a better person on the other side.

00:22:53:01 - 00:23:11:11

Cullen

I think the the kind of like motif with this movie is just kind of almost like being comfortable and happy and learning to to accept where you are and kind of like live in that moment and, and, and just kind of accept that and make the best out of that that moment rather than solving every problem.

00:23:11:11 - 00:23:37:15

Clark

Well, and this is and it's not a question we can answer here, I don't think certainly it's an area that I am not an expert in, but it's but that it's one of the most interesting things to me. I mean, maybe it is the most interesting thing to me about this film from a thematic perspective, which what you just described and, you know, you can compare this film to its contemporary, you know, its equivalents in North America.

00:23:38:15 - 00:24:07:00

Clark

And of course, that would you're going to compare that to Disney films, to Pixar films, which is one of the same now. But but I'm curious, I mean, and I think it probably does speak to maybe a fairly substantial cultural difference. You know, in in North America, we have a very aspirational, very specifically type of aspirational society. And our our films often mirror this, and especially, I feel like in these Pixar and Disney films, right.

00:24:07:01 - 00:24:27:21

Clark

It's it's every one of these films is about a personal journey of growth, right? I mean, they're they're always about you have a character, they start at a place, a they're confronted with a challenge. You know, it's it's scary, scary and harrowing. And they have to you know, it's.

00:24:27:21 - 00:24:28:12

Cullen

The hero's journey.

00:24:28:21 - 00:24:40:02

Clark

It's the hero's journey is exactly what it is. And then, you know, and so and then they come out at the end and they've learned something and they've grown. They're a better they're in a better place. They're a better person.

00:24:42:03 - 00:25:20:05

Clark

And it's interesting to I feel like so and I'm a big fan of the hero's journey and I'm a big fan of films like that. But I often wonder what the cost of almost all of our stories being that is. Mm hmm. I wonder if we have oversaturate did ours or, you know, it was Stories are such an important part of how we were like learned to relate to our world and to ourselves and I almost wonder if we've gotten to a place of like over aspirational of old, where it's just if you're not constantly working on being a quote unquote better person, whatever the heck that means.

00:25:20:12 - 00:25:54:16

Clark

If you're not always looking to the future, like, then you're doing something wrong. You're failing as a human almost. And I am so appreciative of this other this other way of looking at things, which is to be present in the moment, to be accepting of yourself, to realize that, you know, because in a certain sense there's like a real egotism to this other way of looking at things where the world around you is there to make you a better person in a way, right?

00:25:54:16 - 00:26:04:15

Clark

Like the there's an antagonist, there's like these things in the world that are there to present challenges to you so that you can grow and get better. It's like learn a lesson.

00:26:04:15 - 00:26:05:03

Cullen

You go.

00:26:05:06 - 00:26:23:03

Clark

It's like a super like egocentric way of looking at the world, right? Like it's there for you to get better and and you, the reason for your existence is for you to become a better person. It's so different than the world is there for you to develop a relationship with it.

00:26:23:03 - 00:26:23:12

Cullen

Mm hmm.

00:26:24:03 - 00:26:54:04

Clark

And the world is there for you to be curious about. Yeah, and. And maybe even serve as opposed to expect that world to serve you in your personal growth journey. And, you know, there I wish that I were more educated in more aspects of Japanese culture. There are aspects that I am a little bit familiar with that are really intriguing to me and this animism and is that right?

00:26:54:04 - 00:26:55:04

Cullen

And this animism.

00:26:55:13 - 00:27:19:17

Clark

Is part of it. I, I feel and maybe we all feel like this to some extent. I don't know if you do. I'm curious, but I feel like I almost have this like innate thing that I do with inanimate objects where I kind of give them a life and a story, and sometimes it's almost even hard to like throw something away because I feel like almost like I'm hurting.

00:27:19:17 - 00:27:21:05

Cullen

So it's got attachment. Yeah.

00:27:21:15 - 00:27:40:06

Clark

Or that not even if I buy personally attachment. I'm like, Oh man. I'm like, hurt. Like, this thing is like it's a it's somehow has some kind of soul or it has some kind of, you know, the way I kind of define it is that everything has a story behind it like it was, you know, there's a story like this thing had a life somehow, like, how did it get to me?

00:27:40:06 - 00:27:49:09

Clark

How did it get to here? And there's like a life to it almost. So there's like this way that I feel like I kind of relate to that totally.

00:27:49:09 - 00:27:57:23

Cullen

Yeah. I mean, just for those who don't know, Animism is kind of the idea that, like every item objects element in nature rock like.

00:27:58:04 - 00:27:58:23

Clark

Has kind of like a.

00:27:58:23 - 00:28:22:14

Cullen

Soul or even words can have. Yeah, like a soul or spirit or is some sort of, you know, connection. And I'm not a spiritual or a, you know, a religious person. You're not a superstar, as I know you're not either. But I think that I think that to a a a very like, you know, beautiful degree. I believe in magic.

00:28:22:14 - 00:28:44:08

Cullen

It just may not be the magic that is usually defined as magic. Right? No, I think that there is a a wonder to the world. Right. That that just happened to come about, which I think is is spectacular that these these elements are so perfectly in play that we can experience these things. And so I think so when I say I'm not spiritual, I mean more so in the.

00:28:44:08 - 00:28:47:20

Cullen

Yeah, exactly. The supernatural sense of the word. I don't believe that, you know, you.

00:28:47:20 - 00:28:48:20

Clark

Still have art, you.

00:28:48:20 - 00:28:49:10

Cullen

Still. But there.

00:28:50:10 - 00:28:51:23

Clark

Is and there's an.

00:28:51:23 - 00:29:11:17

Cullen

Element to which I can still, you know, completely grasp all these elements and believe in them just in perhaps a slightly different way than than a religious person would believe it. And I think that that's a big part of it is just that the and I think what you described as it being like stories is a really good way to describe it.

00:29:12:14 - 00:29:13:10

Clark

That's how I relate it.

00:29:13:11 - 00:29:33:23

Cullen

I've got this is this funny kind of thought that that keeps coming up for me is that like when you die, the the moments that you experienced on your own in a way cease to exist. Because if you are, memory is the only thing that really preserved those moments. And you were the only person to observe those moments and experience them.

00:29:34:09 - 00:29:56:00

Cullen

Then by all metrics, when the one person, the one single person who who experienced those those things passes on and you know, as or if you don't believe there's an afterlife ceases to exist in that moment, then so do all those memories. And so I think that that's a really, you know, interesting way to look at that. And some people may think that's a sad thing.

00:29:56:00 - 00:30:17:05

Cullen

I don't I think that's more of a beautiful thing in a way that that these these moments are yours. And it's kind of like experiencing them with these these moments and elements and objects that have stories of their own, that there's all these things that you as a person, simply because you're experiencing them, can, can put on those those elements.

00:30:17:05 - 00:30:43:22

Cullen

So I think that that's kind of to me, a lot of, you know, I don't know if that's an intentional thing. I would doubt that it was an intentional element in the movie. But that's something that I also get out of the movie is just that Those are those moments where you're alone as a child running around and exploring and, you know, maybe I didn't run into a giant Totoro in my, you know, the forest near my house and and have a magical experience where I felt that there was a gap.

00:30:44:03 - 00:30:45:14

Clark

In your imagination that.

00:30:46:04 - 00:31:01:12

Cullen

Exactly is there still you're you you have you know the shadows on the ground that are cast by trees can turn into two you know goblins and the clouds are castles and things like that. And I think that that's something that this movie really.

00:31:02:04 - 00:31:02:13

Clark

Gets.

00:31:02:13 - 00:31:08:07

Cullen

Explores, but not in a literal sense. It just it just it's it kind of just lives in those elements.

00:31:08:08 - 00:31:40:22

Clark

Yeah. You mentioned stuff that I want to touch on real quick because it tight. You know, you talk about kind of the fleeting nature of things and how as opposed to feeling sad about that, you feel like there's a beauty there. And I think that's that's, that's another thing. So I probably butcher the exact pronunciation, but in kind of the Japanese have a phrase motto, know aware, which is like that it is actually it does the reason things are beauty and this is my own interpretation of this.

00:31:40:22 - 00:32:00:01

Clark

I'm not saying this is like, but my interpretation of this kind of philosophy is that it the fleeting nature of things is kind of what gives them their beauty to recognize that all things are fleeting. So including childhood. And I think that's one of the reasons that you can look at this film and with such love in your heart for these characters.

00:32:00:01 - 00:32:18:13

Clark

Is that because we all know that childhood is fleeting and that's, you know, and it stays with us, We have like this little kernel, you know, we always kind of carry that child with us inside of us for the rest of our life. But but childhood does transform into something else. We turn into adults. You can't hold on to it forever.

00:32:18:13 - 00:32:31:15

Clark

You shouldn't write. That would be that would be. You're refusing to accept the call of life if you were to stay a child forever. But but there is. But that beauty kind of stays inside of us. And like this.

00:32:31:18 - 00:32:33:04

Cullen

It informs us in a lot of ways.

00:32:33:04 - 00:33:02:00

Clark

And it. Oh, my gosh, does it ever inform us? Absolutely. But I think that's kind of it's not explicitly stated that that, you know, their childhood is going to end. But I think that is a part of the beauty of this is that that words were we know that it will and we've all lost a certain amount of innocence and we've all lost a certain amount, you know, and of course, that the people who made this film are adults and they've gone through that process themselves.

00:33:02:17 - 00:33:23:17

Clark

So it's kind of this interesting thing when you look back and try to recreate childhood in a piece of fiction that you're kind of looking back on your own childhood now as an adult and you're kind of interpreting that or trying to represent that in a work of art. But but I think that's a big part of this, and I think it's a big part of our experience.

00:33:23:17 - 00:33:45:18

Clark

And I almost wonder, you know, you having recent more recently transitioned from a child to an adult, it's interesting I I'd be my hypothesis is, is that maybe that's a big part of why it was such a really grabbed you. Mm hmm. Because you that's that transition is kind of fresh maybe for you.

00:33:45:18 - 00:34:04:20

Cullen

Yeah. There's still Yeah. And you know, and I also I think that even beyond being close to, to childhood, you know, I also work with with kids. You know, I actually the last night was my final duty, potentially my final film class ever. Oh, wow. So there was there was a little bit of nostalgia.

00:34:04:22 - 00:34:09:09

Clark

Not ever. I don't think it's your last film class ever. It could be teach again in your life.

00:34:09:09 - 00:34:10:09

Cullen

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

00:34:10:09 - 00:34:12:07

Clark

But you have two years left. You know.

00:34:12:07 - 00:34:20:03

Cullen

It was there was a lot of the students had been with me for like five, six years. That and you know, now they're all going off to university. And so like I'd watch these kids.

00:34:20:03 - 00:34:20:15

Clark

Yeah.

00:34:20:21 - 00:34:48:00

Cullen

There's a chance that I will go back. It's not it just depends on where my life is in September. But so I think that also not that specific thing that I had last night, but just the fact that I, you know, I'm around kids a lot. And yeah, I think that also kind of brings an element. And I do also want to touch on one really quick thing, which is and this is this is related to what we're talking about that the so there's a fan theory online and I oh yeah I know talk about this You.

00:34:48:00 - 00:34:49:04

Clark

Exposed me to this. I did.

00:34:49:04 - 00:34:50:02

Cullen

Yeah. And I wasn't.

00:34:50:02 - 00:34:50:15

Clark

Aware it Yeah.

00:34:50:19 - 00:35:11:00

Cullen

Yeah. And it's actually got a lot of traction weirdly, which is that at the end of the film, there's a theory that they may in Suffolk die, that they are, you know, that when May runs away that the idea of them being saved by the campus and by Totoro is them like transitioning into the spirit world because they've both died.

00:35:11:18 - 00:35:13:17

Clark

Which is so I have friends, I have friends.

00:35:13:17 - 00:35:18:22

Cullen

So, you know, when I said I first watched this movie back in January, they're like, Yeah, And that ending is so sad how they said.

00:35:18:22 - 00:35:19:13

Clark

Oh, and.

00:35:19:14 - 00:35:33:12

Cullen

I was like, It's so strange. And I think that so and so firstly on, on a like a literal level, you know, Miyazaki and Ghibli have said that, no, this is not the case, that they're all you can.

00:35:33:12 - 00:35:36:01

Clark

Look it up and they've explicitly said that's not our intent.

00:35:36:01 - 00:35:50:02

Cullen

There's also at the end of the movie, you see them embracing granny and then the credits are them like growing up with a younger, like they have a new sibling. And so that was also great film. Yeah. So there's a short 30 minute short film called May in the Kitten Bus, which came out in early 2000.

00:35:50:02 - 00:35:52:01

Clark

That moment. Yeah. I was surprised even.

00:35:52:01 - 00:36:12:15

Cullen

You know, that's a sequel. It's a sequel to the movie. So they're very much alive. I didn't mean neither one when that was said to me. I was like, What? Yeah, Yeah. But I think that the reason for that is that a lot of people, and especially as you get into adulthood, they need there to be a grounding aspect on the magic.

00:36:12:20 - 00:36:13:13

Clark

You can't just there.

00:36:13:13 - 00:36:38:06

Cullen

Is what I think is exceptional about this movie is that. No, yeah it's just, it is magical. There is no explanation for it. And I think that, you know, Miyazaki is a really great it's not a direct quote. So, you know, I'll paraphrase I'll paraphrase for a second. But but it was essentially when someone was like asking what the the like function of the total rows are like what they do in the forest, you know, where the forest guardians are they.

00:36:38:06 - 00:36:42:15

Cullen

And he was like, well, sort of, but that doesn't really matter, you know, because.

00:36:42:15 - 00:36:44:04

Clark

They're, they're guarding anything. There's not.

00:36:44:04 - 00:36:59:13

Cullen

Yeah. And he was like, he was like, they're just, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's as much as if they went through and explained that in the film. What would be the point of that. Yeah. You know I don't I don't when I was a child I didn't see this like great big tree on the front of my school yard.

00:36:59:13 - 00:37:25:08

Cullen

And I think that it had to have some sort of, you know, you just think that it's something that's sort of magical because it's a huge tree. And to relate to the idea of of like animism for a moment, too, that that tree when I was in this this is elementary school when I was I think in grade four or five, they cut it down because it was really old and it was this huge, you know, probably I don't know how many, how high it was, but it was it was very big.

00:37:25:08 - 00:37:28:17

Cullen

It was much probably, you know, three times as high as the school itself.

00:37:28:21 - 00:37:29:07

Clark

Wow.

00:37:29:15 - 00:37:34:14

Cullen

Huge. And really, really big trunk and all that. And it was right on the front.

00:37:34:14 - 00:37:36:03

Clark

A shameful corner down.

00:37:36:07 - 00:37:55:07

Cullen

Yeah. And it was just it was just at that point it was really old and that was a safety hazard. But I remember it was like this this every kid at the school without even really talking about it had this like profound sadness about the loss of this tree. Like it was like a friend of ours and nobody had ever talked about it before.

00:37:55:07 - 00:38:21:21

Cullen

It wasn't like I came into class and said, like, isn't it so sad that the tree is gone? Like, we all just kind of like, were walking home from school and saw the stump and just sort of stood there for 5 minutes looking at the thing. And it was like, you know? So I think that I think that there is a, you know, a very fundamental element to childhood that that kind of sees that you just you, you, you personify things and you you, you know, animism is I just have a thought.

00:38:21:21 - 00:38:39:02

Clark

I just had a thought. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And this will be fun because we can tie it back to our roots with this podcast a little bit, which was our focus on Werner Herzog. But do you remember when we you know, when we were we were kind of rolling through some of his films and we were talking about like a landscape of the soul, right?

00:38:39:02 - 00:39:10:05

Clark

Mm hmm. Do you remember that? Yeah. And how you know Herzog would. And I feel like he is this is really a strength that that, you know, he finds these really beautiful landscapes that when he films them and puts them in the context of the films he makes, I mean, the really extraordinarily like effective at convey, conveying some kind of like primal kind of something about what it is to be human and live in our world.

00:39:10:17 - 00:39:34:19

Clark

And I almost feel like maybe this film in a way, with those with those characters, it's almost like a totally different way to represent a landscape of the soul and how our landscape affects us and how we interact with them and how I mean, because I don't I'm trying to articulate this thought as it's like still developing in my mind here.

00:39:35:04 - 00:39:39:15

Clark

So I'm hanging out there on a wire, but I don't know if that. Does this make sense? A little bit.

00:39:39:23 - 00:39:41:01

Cullen

Yeah, no, definitely.

00:39:41:04 - 00:39:59:18

Clark

And that's it's and so having these characters, having the Totoro and the Cat bus and everything, instead of trying to define them. Right. As like, okay, they're guardians and now you know, we're going to the, the film's going to have some plot where they have to, you know, they're at risk and, you know, they have to work together with the humans or, you know, it'd be something like that.

00:40:00:00 - 00:40:34:12

Clark

And a lot of North American animated films, but they're just kind of there and there is interaction with them and the characters, but it's really and they're just kind of assumed, right? No question. They're not. It's not like, Oh, wow. It's like, but I think it's just maybe another interesting way to kind of articulate or work at a sideways way of articulating a child's relationship with your environment and and I don't know.

00:40:34:19 - 00:40:35:02

Clark

Well, there.

00:40:35:02 - 00:40:36:02

Cullen

Is there is actually somewhat.

00:40:36:02 - 00:40:37:07

Clark

Or how I see it. Yeah.

00:40:38:01 - 00:40:47:11

Cullen

There because I remember when we were talking about the Herzog, when we were talking with Herzog, and then we did I think the first Malick movie we did was The.

00:40:47:11 - 00:40:48:13

Clark

Thin Red Line. Yeah.

00:40:49:04 - 00:41:22:11

Cullen

And we discussed sort of in that episode how there was somewhat of a relationship between Malick and Herzog, and they know each other in real life. And there there's a lot of similarities. And there's also, I don't know to what degree they know each other, but Malick and Miyazaki are very, you know, in a lot of ways similar filmmakers in that there's there's this element of, of nature kind of superseding like everything and but not divorced from from humanity that like humanity is a part of that nature.

00:41:23:09 - 00:41:54:16

Cullen

And I see that a lot. I know Miyazaki is really, really into environmentalism. And this is, as you know, Japan, Japan is a very environmentally conscious country, just period. You know, a lot of there's a lot of environmentalism there. And so I think it's just interesting how, yeah, that it's like you said, it's not that these the they're the the Totoro is the spirits, the soot gremlins that are in the house are as much a part of the landscape as the trees and as the rivers and all that.

00:41:54:16 - 00:42:26:13

Cullen

And so I think that that's, that's yeah. A really interesting way to look at it as that those things. Yeah. They, they affect the person you grow from from interaction with those things much more than from defiance or overcoming or something like that of those things. And I think that that's true of real life. I think that as a child you're you're much more influenced by the passive elements of life than you are by like, I think the the precedents that and I'm sure that it's not just Western culture that puts a precedence on this.

00:42:26:13 - 00:42:43:17

Cullen

But yeah, you know, having grown up in in Canada, they definitely had this that the precedent is always put on like the big life lessons that you learn and like that, like, well, that's what shapes you is the hard times and the, you know, the big break up or the, the, you know, losing a family member for the first time, that's what's going to shape you.

00:42:43:17 - 00:43:11:00

Cullen

But I've I've found, at least for me and I'm sure this is true for a lot of people that what shaped me as a person more so was the passive everyday elements that just the where did I grow up? How are those things kind of like diffuse into me. Yeah, much more than the things that in my brain I could compartmentalize and be like, Well, what did I learn when, you know, I was rejected for the first time or whatever, but that and I think that that this movie really touches touches into that.

00:43:11:16 - 00:43:13:06

Clark

Yeah. Yeah. Well let's talk about.

00:43:13:16 - 00:43:14:08

Cullen

We get into the maybe the.

00:43:14:12 - 00:43:37:10

Clark

Let's get a little bit yeah let's just touch base on some of these things because there's definitely some interesting technical topics to discuss with the with this film. So, I mean, you know, one of the things that, you know, I think is immediately obvious when you're when you're looking at an animated film is that, you know, usually you and I will talk about, you know, the cinematography.

00:43:37:10 - 00:44:02:19

Clark

We'll talk about, you know, get get into some of that technically the cinematography. I mean, there's definitely a cinematographer or director of photography on an animated film. And, you know, there a camera was actually used to make this, but a cinematography is a totally different I'm imagining is a is a pretty different experience to be a cinematographer on a film like this versus the live action film that's like, definitely got me curious.

00:44:02:19 - 00:44:12:03

Clark

I don't know a ton about it, but you had kind of I think you had some technical aspects you wanted to discuss that give this film its unique look.

00:44:12:16 - 00:44:41:22

Cullen

Yeah, So, so there is and again this is something that I am am not educated on to like add nearly the degree of that that either of us are sort of live action stuff. So I could be wrong. But my so one thing you notice that that I notice in a lot of Miyazaki's films and Totoro as well is that there is, there's a choppiness to the animation and I think that it's actually a really pleasing style that like, you know, there's not a lot of motion blur in.

00:44:41:22 - 00:44:42:02

Clark

This.

00:44:43:03 - 00:45:24:10

Cullen

Movie. Erm it's quite and even just like the way that they talk, you know, their mouth is open then it's closed and it's open, that's close. There's not really like a, a, a transition between those two elements or those two frames of, of film. Right. They are. And I think the reason for that is so in, in Western animation in like whether it's Bugs Bunny, Hanna-Barbera, the Disney movies that there is an there's a job called twinning which is done by the tweeters Funny word but it stands for in-between or like between and what that is is that you would have the kind of animators that the talented visual artists that were, that were drawing

00:45:24:10 - 00:45:52:19

Cullen

the frames and the characters wouldn't animate every frame. They would maybe animate like, let's say like one, like if there's 24 frames in a second, you would animate frame one, then maybe frame 12, then maybe frame 24. And you had these people who were called tweeters who would who weren't visually, you know, artistically talented in that way. They would literally just do really, really, really crude drawings of what that movement was.

00:45:52:19 - 00:46:11:07

Cullen

And it would be really, really low, low fi. And that's one of the reasons that if you watch an old Disney movie, if you watch Bugs Bunny, even if you watch like The Simpsons, when The Simpsons were hand-drawn, you pause on a frame of someone moving their head or someone running or something like that. If you just pause in that frame, you know, your brain doesn't notice when it's moving at 24 frames a second.

00:46:11:07 - 00:46:31:06

Cullen

But if you pause on that frame, you'll see that there's like sometimes like an eye is like in the cheek and then it's like because it's just kind of getting the feeling of the movement because of course, you can't actually get motion blur with animation, hand-drawn frame by frame imagination. You have to simulate that motion blur, right? So they would get these people to tween the animation.

00:46:31:06 - 00:46:48:06

Cullen

I think you can probably look up bad tweeting on like Google and see Yeah we can see some some examples. Yeah but it doesn't seem like and I could be wrong maybe they just used more talented artists to do the demeaning and these or just.

00:46:48:06 - 00:46:49:02

Clark

Better time or.

00:46:49:06 - 00:47:07:14

Cullen

Greater. Yeah but it doesn't seem like that was a it seems more like to me that that the artist who is drawing the character is actually drawing each individual frame of the character, which means that, you know, and you brought this this up in a discussion before but that that oftentimes it seems like, you know, maybe only 12 of the 24 frames are animated.

00:47:08:08 - 00:47:26:23

Cullen

And that's sort of why there's that choppiness and that you can kind of see, you know, again, when a mouth is opening, that it's just when someone is talking, it's just open, closed, open, closed. And it's not to say that that's a bad style. I actually really like it. And I think that it lends a really neat quality to the feel of, you know, the art.

00:47:26:23 - 00:47:34:23

Cullen

But I just think that that's that's one thing that I noticed in terms of the you know, that's probably the limit to my technical, you know, ramblings on this film.

00:47:35:00 - 00:47:36:07

Clark

Yeah They don't talk about.

00:47:36:07 - 00:47:37:12

Cullen

Hardly anything else about.

00:47:37:12 - 00:48:02:10

Clark

Yeah, we can certainly, I mean talk from kind of a layperson, audience person, you know, some of the things that really stood out to me. I mean, I think it's clearly it's animated with great care. The characters are hand-drawn and we talked about how they're so expressive and clearly animated with great care and a lot of attention to detail.

00:48:02:15 - 00:48:33:03

Clark

The backgrounds I think are watercolor. And and I especially noticed the really beautiful skies. But it's just yeah, it's extremely pleasing. Um, but the characters are I mean, you talked about how expressive the characters were, and I think it is really, you know, lends itself to this film. I think, you know, big reason why it has such an emotional connection and why you were talking about, Wow, so amazing.

00:48:33:03 - 00:48:59:13

Clark

I empathize with this, you know, four year old character. Um, but I think that's such a big part of it is that they are drawn so expressively and not just facial animation. And sometimes the facial animations aren't even really where you're getting a lot of the emotion. Kind of like you said, you know, it's the talking is like, you know, but it's but it's in all of this body language and body movement and every little detail is really drawn out.

00:48:59:19 - 00:49:21:15

Cullen

And you get that from the opening credits when you see may kind of marching across the like that, that the character is so expressive with the way they move. And that's like a really, really simplistic drawing of Mae as she marches across the opening credits. Yeah, yeah. And I think that the the other thing too is just that Miyazaki's direction, you know, the way that he uses the, you know, so to say camera.

00:49:22:04 - 00:49:42:00

Cullen

Yeah. That there's a lot of stillness like there's a lot of just kind of observational cameras just again, the one scene that that comes to mind is when Mae sees that when she first finds the Totoro is running around the garden and they go under the house, and then she kind of goes over to the like little hole in the bottom is kind of crouched down beside the hole waiting for them to come out again.

00:49:42:04 - 00:50:03:18

Cullen

And they all sneak by behind her. And the but the camera before they sneak by behind her is still on her for like 10 seconds, like it's like a really long, drawn out shot of just her sitting there looking at the thing. But it just again, is this feeling of just like while she's waiting, we're waiting and and, you know, Miyazaki seems to really like to frame far.

00:50:03:18 - 00:50:23:02

Cullen

There's not a ton of like slight detail in terms of like, you don't really get, you know, some animators. You'll notice that like, it's all about, you know, the they'll always cut to a close up if there's food and it'll be this beautiful drawing of food and all the textures and you'll see you know someone, you know there's, there's texture and there's, there's detail.

00:50:23:18 - 00:50:26:06

Cullen

This kind of like high resolution element.

00:50:26:06 - 00:50:28:17

Clark

Yeah. Like these inserts, like these really? Yeah.

00:50:29:02 - 00:50:50:22

Cullen

Miyazaki doesn't seem to like he almost lets your mind fill in those details. And a lot of instances that. That, you know, it's often like a lot of wide shots, a lot of extreme long shots of characters just kind of in the spaces. And, you know, if you look at the details of the things that are drawn, oftentimes it's not all that detailed, and yet your brain fills those things in.

00:50:51:00 - 00:50:54:12

Cullen

And I think that's kind of an interesting element to to the movie as well.

00:50:55:01 - 00:51:11:13

Clark

Yeah, I mean, the backgrounds does watercolors. I mean, those are God tastic. Yeah, there's and you're right, I think there's especially if you if you compare them to modern, you know, CGI animated films, Pixar films, you know, the level of detail, just literal detail is not I.

00:51:11:13 - 00:51:14:15

Cullen

Think I think Miyazaki does a lot of the watercolors himself. Oh.

00:51:15:00 - 00:51:43:04

Clark

That would be. Yeah. I mean, that's I, I, it sounds reasonable. I don't know myself, but, but, but it's, it's not the detail that makes them so expressive. I mean, I think, you know, when you look at composition, color, how space is used, I mean, there's some really beautifully cinematic moments here where, you know, all of the techniques that a person would use to create beautiful frame in a live action film.

00:51:43:04 - 00:52:05:07

Clark

I you know, I just some of them, when there's there are many but I especially like when they're waiting at the bus stop when she's got the umbrella there's just really beautiful light And that's what I think makes the sky is so beautiful in some of these, is that it's that quote unquote lighting. I feel weird saying this because it's not like it's I mean, that's how it's drawn.

00:52:05:07 - 00:52:18:12

Clark

It's the way that color is used. And the the actual drawings are paintings by I keep wanting to say it's like how light is used. Yeah. Like, you know, I.

00:52:18:12 - 00:52:25:01

Cullen

Mean, it is. It is. I mean, a lot of cinematographers describe their work as like, you know, you're painting with light, right?

00:52:25:01 - 00:52:44:00

Clark

But that right And it is but that's it's and I think that's that's kind of shows you how effective it is that it's like I'm so compelled to call it light when of course, well, this is how it was drawn. Painted. Yeah. This is how, you know, they they created that light that it's not real light. They've actually mimicked light in the way that it was drawn and painted.

00:52:44:00 - 00:52:51:10

Clark

But. But extremely effective. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, we haven't touched on music but. Oh, I.

00:52:51:10 - 00:52:52:22

Cullen

Love yeah, I love the soundtrack.

00:52:52:22 - 00:53:07:23

Clark

I think it's, it's, it's got this really cool kind of interesting combo of like eighties kind of experimental synthesizer. Yeah. I mean, I almost got, like, I told you, I almost got, like, a Tangerine Dream vibe for some of it.

00:53:07:23 - 00:53:10:15

Cullen

Just, I mean, I've got the soundtrack downloaded on my phone.

00:53:10:19 - 00:53:11:05

Clark

Yeah.

00:53:11:08 - 00:53:19:15

Cullen

Like there's this one particular track on it called A Haunted House that's like, the best. I don't even like club music, but it's like the best rap in the world.

00:53:19:18 - 00:53:21:19

Clark

Are you serious? Back and listen.

00:53:21:19 - 00:53:25:14

Cullen

Yeah, but then there's the other ones that, like, it's one. They're running around the house right at the beginning and with the.

00:53:25:15 - 00:53:28:10

Clark

With the little girl demos.

00:53:28:11 - 00:53:50:03

Cullen

Yeah. Yeah. And then there's the other the cat bass theme song that's like, kind of a little bit funnier and more whimsical is great. I think the two songs are a lot of fun, too. The opening and closing songs are fun and. And yeah, so it's Jo Jo hee hee hee hisashi Hisashi, I think is how you pronounce it.

00:53:50:03 - 00:53:50:09

Cullen

I'm so.

00:53:50:09 - 00:53:51:17

Clark

Glad that I'm not the only one that.

00:53:52:01 - 00:53:56:22

Cullen

And, um. Yeah, I just. I just don't want to get it wrong. I No, I did.

00:53:56:22 - 00:53:58:16

Clark

I apologize. I understand. Yeah.

00:53:59:15 - 00:54:11:12

Cullen

And I think the he's done, like, a lot of the Miyazaki movies. I think Ponyo, his Ponyo score is great. He's always, like, very interesting, but he does exactly that is he he often will, like, pull from inspirations. Some other sources. I know Philip Glass was a big, you know.

00:54:11:17 - 00:54:31:05

Clark

So he's done video games, too. I don't know if he's scored and I've played a little bit off of one of them and it's kind of on my list to continue. But yeah, he's actually scored a couple of video games too, which are interesting, which are I mean, I got I'll probably at Nino Cooney. There's a couple of them.

00:54:31:05 - 00:54:31:18

Cullen

Okay.

00:54:31:18 - 00:54:51:18

Clark

Do games which are actually in their own right they're really beautiful and I can almost even see how they could be connected to films like this for sure, visually and thematically. But I'm just learning that right now. I didn't realize he had also scored those. Very interesting. I could see how that would be connected.

00:54:52:12 - 00:54:54:17

Cullen

But yeah, soundtrack by and large. Great.

00:54:54:22 - 00:55:02:02

Clark

Yeah. Yeah. I have to go back and check that out separate from the film, just so that I can kind of focus just on that music alone.

00:55:02:09 - 00:55:19:09

Cullen

And then the, the, so the performances. So I've seen, Oh yeah, the Japanese version, which I think the performances are great in that. And I also think that this is a, a, you know, a rare occasion where the Disney English dub, which is the Fanning Sisters and that's why.

00:55:19:09 - 00:55:19:19

Clark

We watch.

00:55:19:19 - 00:55:22:17

Cullen

And most the older ones name Elle is the younger one.

00:55:23:03 - 00:55:23:17

Clark

Dakota.

00:55:24:01 - 00:55:40:13

Cullen

Dakota Fanning Yeah that they play the Mae and such Satsuki and they do like a phenomenal job Yeah they really do a good think that you know I think that there's there's a really I it's.

00:55:40:14 - 00:56:05:16

Clark

Rare that them being sisters I think in real life probably totally helps. Yeah and I just want to preface you know I was honestly I was scared like when we saw I always I mean almost without fail, you know, if I ever watch a film, especially if it's the first time I've ever watched it, I absolutely, positively want to see that film in its native language, without question.

00:56:05:16 - 00:56:28:05

Clark

I do not want to watch a dub. So I was hesitant when I asked you. I said, Hey, which version of the film, are we going to, you know, discuss? Because I almost do feel like they're different versions. I almost do feel like you know, the Japanese version of this film and the English version of this film are almost different versions.

00:56:28:05 - 00:56:29:23

Clark

It's not the same film, but with.

00:56:30:02 - 00:56:33:15

Cullen

Yeah, I mean, you're getting different artists doing their different interpretations and characters.

00:56:33:15 - 00:56:36:12

Clark

Right? And so I was hesitant. I was like, Oh, okay, okay.

00:56:37:01 - 00:56:46:03

Cullen

Just I guess for as a, as a, as a disclaimer, the reason why we did the English version was because we weren't sure that HBO would have the the Japanese version.

00:56:46:03 - 00:56:56:13

Clark

So and it wasn't right know until I actually sat down. Now, just for those of you who are interested, HBO actually does. You can choose which which version you would like to watch. But I mean, if you're.

00:56:56:13 - 00:56:58:05

Cullen

In Canada, they're all on Netflix.

00:56:58:05 - 00:57:15:01

Clark

So and we had also heard that this was a an accurate and and really well done version. And I think he had even read or maybe hadn't you heard that maybe Miyazaki actually had input or.

00:57:15:01 - 00:57:28:01

Cullen

Yeah, I know. I know. John Lasseter was the person who was put in charge of the the Disney kind of dub. And there's like, he went to Japan and was with Miyazaki for a lot of the process and things like that.

00:57:28:01 - 00:57:33:11

Clark

So yeah, so we did kind of feel a little more comfortable than we might normally feel.

00:57:33:20 - 00:57:59:16

Cullen

But yeah, I'd say watch it. And both Yeah, I think both for like again, I think that I was really the first time I watched it pleasantly surprised with how how good Manning sisters are, you know I don't think I expected that at all. And the Japanese voice actors who I'm not familiar with their names because of course they're not, you know, big actors here, but they they also do a really, really good job.

00:57:59:16 - 00:58:06:19

Cullen

And the one actor who plays Maid did return for the short film like 15 years later. So the Made in the Kitten bus.

00:58:06:20 - 00:58:18:08

Clark

Which is interesting, fun, but I think at all of the all of the performances are quite good. I mean, obviously Dakota and L.A. or Elle, is it l l.

00:58:18:09 - 00:58:19:22

Cullen

I think it's Elle. Yeah.

00:58:19:22 - 00:58:48:14

Clark

They they carry a substantial part of the film. But Tim Daly, who plays the father, I think does a really wonderful job. Yeah, I it's, you know, so by the time I kind of got into the film, like ten, 15 minutes, I'm like, okay, I don't feel so bad. It's like, But a lot of times, you know, the dub is and I actually it's interesting, you know, there was another English dub of this that was done, I think in 89 or so, like right after the film was released.

00:58:48:14 - 00:59:03:18

Clark

It's my understanding that it was done for like airline viewing or something, like it was done for Japan Airlines and oh, and then it was yeah, we think it was done originally, so that could play on Japan Airlines for International or for English speaking audiences. And then.

00:59:04:06 - 00:59:05:19

Cullen

To see Fox before.

00:59:05:19 - 00:59:30:23

Clark

Fox released that one. Yeah, that's the Yeah, that's the one that's the version that Fox released on home video. And so that was there for X number of years. And then I obviously, I guess the way that they did their deal the that the license for that or something ran out and and so then Disney picked it up and redid the dub is I guess that original English dub was not considered to be very it's.

00:59:30:23 - 00:59:31:19

Cullen

Not great Yeah.

00:59:31:19 - 01:00:05:03

Clark

It's not and I think they changed some small but important details I think in it a little bit trying to like Anglicized it I guess would be the term whereas this later version doesn't do much of that if any at all. So it was more literal in its in its translation. And so but yeah, I think the performances are really quite wonderful and I had no idea that the those sisters did that and, and they're pretty darn good actors.

01:00:05:03 - 01:00:12:01

Clark

Which one is in. There's a, there's a show that's on now was one of the I think it's Catherine the great is I don't know maybe it's the younger one and.

01:00:12:02 - 01:00:12:14

Cullen

It's the younger.

01:00:12:14 - 01:00:13:22

Clark

One. Yeah but an.

01:00:13:22 - 01:00:22:14

Cullen

Elle Fanning also or or I think it was Elle Fanning also played Coraline, which was I think that came out in 2007, which is a stop motion film.

01:00:22:18 - 01:00:22:20

Clark

And.

01:00:23:12 - 01:00:24:07

Cullen

Very good in that too.

01:00:24:07 - 01:00:43:19

Clark

So yeah, well I could see where there where their careers of, you know, have taken off because they're both seem to be quite talented And they did do a great job in this film too. Right on. Well can you think of as we covered. I think that much as we could add Yeah. Yeah. We got a little philosophical there for a moment, but.

01:00:43:19 - 01:00:44:11

Cullen

Existential.

01:00:44:11 - 01:00:58:14

Clark

Which I think is fun, existential, you know, and talking about, you know, but I. I appreciate you picking the film. I, I'm sure I would have seen it eventually at some point because like I said, my wife and I have kind of are running through these films.

01:00:58:14 - 01:01:02:16

Cullen

But did you did the amber joining for the watch this time?

01:01:02:16 - 01:01:23:22

Clark

No, no, she didn't. But I would but I'm going to suggest it to her, and I definitely would happily watch it again. So I'm sure that we will watch it in the not too distant future together. But but yeah, I really enjoyed it. It was a really fun, lighthearted hearted, nostalgic film that was that kind of just put a little smile in my heart.

01:01:23:22 - 01:01:32:01

Clark

So yeah, I that means next time that means for me, I'll have to pick like a really, you know, dark and dire, nihilistic.

01:01:32:01 - 01:01:32:13

Cullen

Sophie's.

01:01:32:13 - 01:01:49:17

Clark

Choice. Balance that out, you know, on the on the backside next time. But anyway, well, it's as always, man, it's been a blast. I always enjoy these conversations. I hope our listeners out there have enjoyed it as well. And yeah, until next time.

01:01:49:19 - 01:01:52:01

Cullen

Bye bye.

Episode - 053 - Pulp Fiction

00

Cullen

I Everyone Welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. Episode 53 I am Colin McFater joined as always by my co-host Clark Coffey.

00:00:19:06 - 00:00:33:20

Clark

Hey. Hey, what's up, buddy? I'm doing well. It's a beautiful day. It is like a crisp blue sky out there. You've got and this is rare for where I live. We've got these beautiful, white, fluffy clouds floating by.

00:00:34:04 - 00:00:35:17

Cullen

Our weather seems to be matching up.

00:00:35:17 - 00:00:43:22

Clark

Yeah, it's. I can. I'm looking out my office window here and a humblebrag. I can see Catalina Island. The ocean looks.

00:00:43:22 - 00:00:46:18

Cullen

Beautiful. I don't think I ever saw that when I was down there.

00:00:47:06 - 00:00:48:07

Clark

Yeah, you know what?

00:00:48:07 - 00:00:48:21

Cullen

Too hazy.

00:00:48:21 - 00:00:51:19

Clark

Yeah. I forget when you came down. Where did you come down? Was it.

00:00:51:19 - 00:00:53:20

Cullen

The end of July or early.

00:00:53:20 - 00:01:00:07

Clark

August? Yeah. So? So, yeah, we tend to get a little more haze at that time of the year. But it rained last night.

00:01:00:23 - 00:01:02:13

Cullen

So there you go. And it kind of cleans it out.

00:01:02:17 - 00:01:21:21

Clark

So which is why, I mean, I'll have to, I'll have to, to tattle on myself here. I had to ask Colin for an extra hour today because we had a huge not a huge storm, but we had a storm come by and it rained so hard and it was so windy that it woke me up and then I couldn't go back to sleep for hours.

00:01:22:04 - 00:01:30:23

Clark

But it was so now the sky is like really clean and it just is nice. Anyway, I digress. I digress. But the point is, I'm happy to be here to discuss.

00:01:31:12 - 00:01:36:05

Cullen

I want our little indie film that a lot of people might not I've heard of called Pulp Fiction.

00:01:36:05 - 00:01:56:05

Clark

Yeah, I know. I mean, I love being able to use this podcast as a way to share films that, you know, people otherwise would never have heard of. And yes, so I'm really excited, really excited to bring this to people's attention. But this is my choice. And I was talking to Colin earlier. You know, it's like Colin earlier.

00:01:56:10 - 00:02:10:19

Clark

You know, it's it's tough because, you know, on the one hand, I mean, now we've definitely picked films that that I mean, I think it was the first film we ever picked. So, I mean, if there were ever a mainstream film that everybody and their brother and sister have seen, it's that one.

00:02:11:07 - 00:02:12:01

Cullen

Yeah, but.

00:02:12:10 - 00:02:35:04

Clark

But, you know, I was torn when I picked this film because I was like, well, you know, it's been done to death. I mean, everybody has I mean, if there there has been more analysis and writing and discussion and debate about this film than almost any film I can think of. That's it's just it's I was thinking to myself, well, what in the world can we bring to the table with this?

00:02:35:17 - 00:02:50:00

Clark

But then I thought, well, a couple of things. I thought, well, you know, is that any reason to not discuss it? Because the fact of the matter is, is that this film, for me personally, has had a huge impact. It was kind of like the right film at the right time, at the right place. I was like 18.

00:02:50:11 - 00:03:09:10

Clark

I was this came out, I think in September or something, I think of 94. So I was literally just starting college. I was a freshman in college and and I was like, you know, becoming more and more interested in cinema and film. And so this was this was kind of like, right thing, right time, right place for me.

00:03:09:20 - 00:03:34:19

Clark

But but the other thing was I didn't want to deny that by not talking about it, just because a lot of people have talked about it. But the other thing I thought was interesting and I kind of want to keep in the back of our minds as we have this discussion, is that I think this is a unique situation where, you know, you've got me who was 18 when the film came out and we've got you and I have a 20 year difference or a little more than 20 year difference between us.

00:03:35:01 - 00:03:43:23

Clark

So I'm really curious to kind of compare and contrast what your experience is like with this film, you know, being so far removed from when it came out.

00:03:44:23 - 00:03:45:15

Cullen

Yeah, Yeah.

00:03:45:21 - 00:04:12:07

Clark

Because I do always think of this film as like very set in a specific time in my mind, in my mind, because I always place it in the context of this big movement of independent cinema in America in the early nineties. And so I always think of, of, you know, the beginning of Miramax, I think of, you know, Kevin Smith, I think of Sex, Lies and Videotape as Soderbergh.

00:04:12:07 - 00:04:34:09

Clark

I think of, you know, so much of this. And then I and then I think of like the cottage industry of Tarantino esque films that this birthed like, you know, or this inspired after it. Yeah. And so it it has such a like, like it seems so concretely in the nineties for me it seems I mean it seems to almost typify the nineties to me.

00:04:35:00 - 00:04:53:16

Clark

So I'm really curious to kind of see through your eyes a little bit and compare and contrast because you know, you saw it in 2005 at seven years of age, but I know you've seen it since then too. Is I'm curious, you know, your your repeat viewings when you were an adult and, you know, you were kind of able to say, you know, formulate more complex thoughts about it.

00:04:53:16 - 00:05:07:08

Clark

But so let's talk about that. Let me share my, like, experience with it and then I want to discuss yours and then we can kind of use that to talk about some other aspects of the film, if that's cool with you.

00:05:07:08 - 00:05:08:09

Cullen

Yeah, Yeah, that works.

00:05:08:12 - 00:05:31:07

Clark

So I've already kind of hinted at a lot of this, but yeah, so, you know, came out in 94. It's hard to overstate for people who weren't around at that time. It's really hard to overstate the hype, the impact that this film had. I mean, it was hugely, critically successful. At one when the Palme d'Or was nominated for seven Academy Awards, not only won for screenplay, but it just had such a profound impact.

00:05:31:07 - 00:05:58:06

Clark

I think it made something like 300 plus million dollars off. I don't know what was the budget. I mean, it was maybe 14 million or something like that. 8 million, 9 million made 214 million off that. Yeah. So it was you know, it's definitely it's a low budget independent film which I think gets lost in the mix. I think when you watch it, you see how cheaply it was done and we can talk about that a little bit more, but it's definitely an independent film.

00:05:58:06 - 00:06:09:18

Clark

It was a huge success and I think it's just hard to overstate. You know, not only did it impact pop culture, I mean, it like became pop culture. I mean, it it yeah, it.

00:06:09:22 - 00:06:10:20

Cullen

Rattles like you guys.

00:06:11:03 - 00:06:13:23

Clark

Yeah. Yeah. It was like this. It really did.

00:06:13:23 - 00:06:17:06

Cullen

It in a lot of ways. Still is. I mean, yeah.

00:06:17:09 - 00:06:39:05

Clark

And it and its longevity is surprising. Usually when you have a film that has that kind of impact and becomes so saturated and a lot of times they don't hold up, a lot of times they fade away in time. It's like, I like, here's a good analogy, like Saturday Night Fever. Speaking of John Travolta, that film had a huge impact.

00:06:39:05 - 00:07:00:00

Clark

It was a major pop culture phenomenon. It was an extremely successful film. Yeah, people don't really talk about that film the way they talk about pulp Fiction. I mean, there's a big difference, you know, in how we look at those two films now, but that's just one of many examples. So yeah, I think it's rare in that sense too, that it's actually stood the test of time.

00:07:00:00 - 00:07:25:10

Clark

But anyway, so for me, being 18 years of age, just going into college, being kind of, you know, my love for cinema, kind of growing and maturing, this film was had a huge impact on me. I was blown away by it. I hadn't really ever seen anything like it before. I hadn't been exposed to a lot of the films that Tarantino references in this film because I'm like a decade younger than him or so I think.

00:07:25:17 - 00:07:46:04

Clark

So a lot of his references come from a time before me, but I did love genre films and exploitation films, and I'd watch spaghetti westerns with my dad. And so I kind of understood, you know, and like Dirty Harry and, you know, some of the film genres that he does kind of explore here I had been exposed to.

00:07:47:20 - 00:08:08:00

Clark

But the other part that was, I think and this and we can talk about this a little more and why this film was so kind of impactful and inspirational, especially to people like film students and things, was his story. Of course, his story became such a big part of this film's success. And and of course, we all know his story now, so I'm not going to recap it in full.

00:08:08:00 - 00:08:34:00

Clark

But basically, you know, it's it's Hollywood outsider guy. Guy comes from kind of nothing. He works at a video store. And, you know, he he writes his own stuff. He gets to make Reservoir Dogs. It's a huge success. And then Pulp Fiction just blows everybody out of the water and he changes the game. So for somebody who is in Hollywood, outsider who wants to make films that can that that looks like a pretty, you know, like, wow, it can be done.

00:08:34:00 - 00:08:34:19

Clark

You can do it.

00:08:35:03 - 00:08:35:17

Cullen

Sweet deal.

00:08:36:19 - 00:08:41:06

Clark

So that's kind of my orientation to it. What about you? I'm really curious about your experience.

00:08:42:02 - 00:08:49:01

Cullen

Yeah, I mean, I was yes, I was seven or so when I saw this movie for the first time.

00:08:51:05 - 00:08:55:04

Clark

And set the stage for it and like. Like, Yeah. So how did you come to see it at seven?

00:08:55:04 - 00:09:04:11

Cullen

Yeah, I grew up in the suburbs now, and so, you know, a lot of sleep overs because, you know, your friends sort of live close by and it's just you walk over to their house.

00:09:04:13 - 00:09:09:02

Clark

Just imagine this idyllic Canadian, you know, nobody locks their doors.

00:09:09:08 - 00:09:27:11

Cullen

A stranger things. Yeah. So I used to go over to a friend's house, Um, this guy named Evan, who I kind of you know, you have those friends growing up where it's like, there, you know, his mom was like, my second mom, and. Sure. Yeah, his whole family knew me. I was at his house all the time, and, you know, um, and same with him.

00:09:27:11 - 00:09:39:13

Cullen

With me. It's like, you know, my best friend growing up, and he had an older brother who always kind of showed us different movies and with, like, we'd go to Blockbuster.

00:09:39:13 - 00:09:41:09

Clark

And how old was this brother? Roughly?

00:09:41:09 - 00:09:42:17

Cullen

Is 14 about.

00:09:42:17 - 00:09:46:05

Clark

Okay, so not too old. Not. Yeah, but compared to you guys.

00:09:46:06 - 00:10:14:04

Cullen

He might have even been a little bit younger than that. But okay. But yeah, we, so we, we'd always walk to there was a blockbuster pretty close to where we lived and we'd always walk there and like rent a movie or a game or something on, on the night of our sleepovers. And so we were there with his brother and Pulp Fiction was there, and I can't remember if he, as in my friend Evan, had seen it before or like his brother had shown him, but it was out that he had seen it and they wanted me to see it.

00:10:14:04 - 00:10:19:04

Cullen

Or his brother was like, Oh, I've got to show you guys this movie. It's it's, you know, Yeah, it's like crazy.

00:10:19:06 - 00:10:24:00

Clark

But one way or another, it was like somebody there had seen it and they were like, You gotta check this out.

00:10:24:07 - 00:10:39:01

Cullen

And so we went home. And again, normally it would be a thing where it's like we would kind of rent a movie that we wanted to see and his brother would like watch a movie upstairs. But, you know, this time, of course, we're all in the basement. Mm hmm. It was probably might have been I guess it could have been Dev DVD, but it might have been VHS.

00:10:39:01 - 00:10:49:14

Cullen

I can't remember at the time. And so he pops it in and it starts going and it was like, so a different from everything I had seen at the time because.

00:10:49:14 - 00:11:01:12

Clark

What were you watching at the time? Like, what would have been like your, like the palette of your film? You know, what would like, let's give us an average. Like, what would you have watched with your buddy?

00:11:01:18 - 00:11:03:09

Cullen

I mean, I liked like.

00:11:03:09 - 00:11:04:06

Clark

On a sleepover.

00:11:04:16 - 00:11:06:20

Cullen

I liked a lot of Hitchcock, but like.

00:11:07:03 - 00:11:09:02

Clark

So at seven, you were watching Hitchcock.

00:11:09:02 - 00:11:11:05

Cullen

And my dad was my dad was a big Hitchcock fan.

00:11:11:05 - 00:11:14:06

Clark

But that's not what you were watching when you went to go stay over at your. But it.

00:11:14:12 - 00:11:17:10

Cullen

Was probably Spielberg probably like something Jurassic Park or.

00:11:17:14 - 00:11:19:08

Clark

Or were blockbusters.

00:11:19:08 - 00:11:22:19

Cullen

Or one of his like, you know, music Minority Report or something like that.

00:11:22:22 - 00:11:26:05

Clark

Okay, so like current big blockbusters. Spielberg Yeah.

00:11:26:14 - 00:11:43:13

Cullen

Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, so this kind of I just remember watching it and immediately feeling like I could never tell my parents that I watched this movie. Like, it seemed so beyond and like, you know, just, I think just mostly not even because, again, we'll get to this in.

00:11:43:15 - 00:11:49:17

Clark

Were you shocked? Like were you do you have any moments where you were just like mouth agape? Were there any like, can you remember?

00:11:49:17 - 00:11:54:07

Cullen

I think I think it was it was more just that it was so different that I felt so not.

00:11:54:07 - 00:11:55:19

Clark

The violent specific. No.

00:11:55:19 - 00:12:15:20

Cullen

The moment I thought I'd seen, you know, I'd seen violence before and like that, but. Well, sure, he's up in Kansas, like the suburbs. Yes. Yeah, it's a vibe. It's like Mad Max out here, I think. I think it was the just the way the movie was, like how they were talking and how it was directed and and just.

00:12:15:20 - 00:12:16:14

Clark

The whole thing.

00:12:17:00 - 00:12:20:08

Cullen

There was drugs and things like that. Oh, yeah. It's like, you know, you just get the.

00:12:20:08 - 00:12:21:05

Clark

Overdoses.

00:12:21:05 - 00:12:24:09

Cullen

Feeling of like, like I don't even know what any of this stuff means.

00:12:25:08 - 00:12:26:18

Clark

Well, you're seven, and.

00:12:26:18 - 00:12:33:10

Cullen

It would be like just kind of sitting there and watching it and the, you know, the the Z scene and you're sitting there.

00:12:33:10 - 00:12:35:00

Clark

Oh, Oh, God, I don't know.

00:12:35:00 - 00:12:38:03

Cullen

I don't like you have no idea what's happening, but you're kind of like, okay, You're like.

00:12:38:07 - 00:12:41:01

Clark

Why is that man in a leather suit? Why aren't you.

00:12:41:02 - 00:12:41:09

Cullen

Red.

00:12:41:09 - 00:12:43:17

Clark

Ball? Why are there red balls in their mouths?

00:12:43:22 - 00:13:04:14

Cullen

And but I remember really I also caught on to kind of the humor of it all, that it was like kind of lighthearted in a way that there's not a it doesn't you know, it's not like a self-serious kind of, you know, drama. It was it was also very funny. And, you know, the time something would happen, I just would kind of look over at my friend and his brother and see that they were laughing.

00:13:04:14 - 00:13:14:19

Cullen

And so I was like, okay, it's all right for me to laugh and laugh at this because, you know, clearly it's meant to be. Yeah, yeah. And then so that was pretty early again, pretty early for me to have seen that movie.

00:13:15:13 - 00:13:16:17

Clark

But it stood out to you.

00:13:16:17 - 00:13:21:21

Cullen

Yeah. And then I don't think I really watched it again until high school.

00:13:22:14 - 00:13:23:01

Clark

Okay.

00:13:23:03 - 00:13:27:10

Cullen

Early high school, I'd say maybe like maybe late middle school.

00:13:27:10 - 00:13:32:03

Clark

But so only a few years later then, right? Like maybe, what, four or five years later?

00:13:32:03 - 00:13:32:19

Cullen

Yeah, maybe.

00:13:33:02 - 00:13:33:10

Clark

Okay.

00:13:33:11 - 00:13:34:12

Cullen

Probably six or seven.

00:13:34:12 - 00:13:42:20

Clark

And what did you think of it then? You're a little older, you've got more film experience under your belt. Do you have any recollections of this next viewing when you were a little older?

00:13:43:09 - 00:13:58:18

Cullen

Yeah. I mean, I think everyone goes through kind of that, especially these days, that kind of Tarantino phase. Okay. You know, there's like an I teach film. So I know that kids are still going through this because a lot of the kids that I teach, you know, they get to grade nine and they're really, really into Tarantino and stuff.

00:13:58:19 - 00:14:03:06

Clark

And do you find that this is like equal across gender or.

00:14:03:13 - 00:14:04:01

Cullen

Partially.

00:14:04:09 - 00:14:05:09

Clark

Mainly boys?

00:14:05:09 - 00:14:17:19

Cullen

If it is a if it is, I think I think boys, even boys that aren't really into film were really into Tarantino. I don't mean to generalize, but yeah, whereas girls that are really into film would be but you know, less so girls that aren't into film.

00:14:17:19 - 00:14:22:20

Clark

Yeah, I was just kind of curious. I mean, in my imagination. In my imagination, I would imagine.

00:14:23:06 - 00:14:23:12

Cullen

That.

00:14:23:21 - 00:14:38:11

Clark

Boys would be more drawn. But of course, again, it's just a generalization. And not to say that anybody couldn't be drawn, but just I, I was curious as to whether you had noticed. Did you know that the case. But so okay, so you're so you know everyone.

00:14:38:11 - 00:14:39:09

Cullen

Yeah. Everyone kind of gets it.

00:14:39:09 - 00:14:41:08

Clark

But did you do that then? Are you saying you.

00:14:41:11 - 00:14:48:15

Cullen

Sort of I, I wouldn't say that. I was as big of a Tarantino fan as my friends were.

00:14:49:18 - 00:14:52:06

Clark

But what did you think about it then the second time? Let's go back.

00:14:52:06 - 00:15:00:06

Cullen

To like like I remember thinking that it was really groundbreaking and like, it kind of picking up on the things that why they impacted me the first time. You know.

00:15:00:06 - 00:15:01:00

Clark

What? Okay.

00:15:01:12 - 00:15:25:06

Cullen

Like sort of help me contextualize is the type of stuff that that I just didn't understand when I was. Yeah. You know, that just even the fact of the movie that the film is non chronological, that like obviously I kind of understood that at seven years old, but I didn't really get why that was different. I didn't really understand like, right, what was groundbreaking about that.

00:15:25:06 - 00:15:51:07

Cullen

And so I think I think I really, you know, I would say the style of it to just that that was something that really stuck out to me that that the the like heightened dialog. And that's why, again, this was something that you said you hadn't really had a lot of experience for. But weirdly enough I I've seen, you know, both in like publications and conversations about like the style of his dialog and things like that and being really heightened.

00:15:51:14 - 00:16:23:08

Cullen

I didn't really re being really realistic and why I always thought that it was really heightened. I always felt that it was. But I think I think the thing is that when you're that age, when you're 20 or you're in grade nine and you see a Tarantino movie for the first time, I think the fact that the dialog is conversational in a way kind of tricks a lot of people into thinking, oh, it's natural, it's it's realistic because it's conversational without really taking that extra leap to go, well, conversational doesn't really mean real.

00:16:23:18 - 00:16:27:15

Cullen

It just means conversational. That's a bad thing. Dialog doesn't have to be realistic.

00:16:29:00 - 00:16:46:12

Clark

Well, I want to hold your thoughts on that. Hold your thoughts on that for just a second. Let's I want to fast forward then, because I want to kind of bracket your experiences here. But but this is a good topic. I want to come back to it. Let's jump then to watching it now as as an adult, 20 something year old person.

00:16:47:22 - 00:16:59:00

Clark

You watched it, I assume, again, for the this conversation right now that we're having. Yeah. Tell me what you thought now. So now you know, you saw it when you were seven. Totally naive, you know. Yes. Non cinephile per se.

00:16:59:00 - 00:16:59:23

Cullen

Having No, I see it.

00:16:59:23 - 00:17:20:20

Clark

Again at ten or so. So you're still you know, but but now let's fast forward. You've watched it. Now you have all of the breadth and depth of your film experience behind you. You totally understand the context of this film, but tell me what you think of it now, not because you don't have that, you don't have the memory of it in its time and place that I do.

00:17:20:20 - 00:17:22:18

Clark

I'm really curious about what you think of the film now.

00:17:22:18 - 00:17:45:20

Cullen

So I think I think it was it was easier this time. I hadn't seen this again since I was in first year university. So yeah, feel like five or so years ago it was really easy for me this time to almost just view it as a movie and kind of try and analyze it as such. Yeah, just like, okay, what's the, what's the filmmaking like?

00:17:45:20 - 00:18:05:06

Cullen

What's the. And I think that's just because I've been so far removed from, from like, you know, high school when it's like everything is about Tarantino and you know, I hadn't seen I don't think I'd really watched a Tarantino movie in a few years. Yeah maybe since me and you saw Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Oh, that's drama.

00:18:05:09 - 00:18:14:08

Clark

Yeah, we did. When? That's right. It just coincidentally that that movie was released when you were here and we went to go see that at the Cinerama Dome before COVID hit. And it closed.

00:18:14:20 - 00:18:24:10

Cullen

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Really sad. But yeah, but I think that might be the last or so. I think I've been kind of removed, not intentionally, but just haven't really been like in, in.

00:18:24:14 - 00:18:25:22

Clark

In that space. Yeah. Yeah.

00:18:25:22 - 00:18:31:20

Cullen

And so it was a lot easier for me to just kind of put it on, watch it and sort of go, okay, like, what do I think about this? And I could see.

00:18:31:20 - 00:18:44:16

Clark

Like, what did you think? So what was your like? You were probably watching it. I don't put words in your mouth, but my guess maybe you're watching it like, a little more analytically this time. Yeah. We're going to have a conversation. But but if you can, like, what was your emotional response to it?

00:18:44:16 - 00:19:06:20

Cullen

So I think I, I mean, my first thought was like, I can see why this is the the like, you know, every film student's favorite movie. You know, that it I can see why this is taught in so many screenwriting classes and things like that. Yeah. You know, in a deserved deservedly so. You know, it's it's it's a it's a very, very unique and good movie by all metrics.

00:19:08:11 - 00:19:17:05

Cullen

But I also think that interestingly enough, I kind of, you know, was able to pick out some of the things that I, I don't love about it. I find these let's start there.

00:19:17:05 - 00:19:17:13

Clark

I want to.

00:19:17:13 - 00:19:32:01

Cullen

Yes. I mean, I think that the, um, I was really I was a lot less engaged with the Bruce Willis storyline. Okay. Um, I found that to be like, whereas that was the one thing that I kind of always remembered from it, that this time I found that because.

00:19:32:01 - 00:19:33:15

Clark

The gimp thing probably grabbed.

00:19:33:22 - 00:19:42:09

Cullen

Your life. I think that this time I was just kind of less interested in that and found the, you know, Sam Jackson character. And I found he's.

00:19:42:09 - 00:19:45:21

Clark

So good in that movie. Oh, yeah. I mean, he's so great in that.

00:19:46:18 - 00:20:13:14

Cullen

And the date with Mia Wallace, I thought that that was was you know, those are kind of the things that stuck out to me this time is things that I really, really liked versus the the you know, I think that the Bruce Willis story almost leans a little bit into, you know, where Tarantino would go a little bit later because, of course there's like the the comedy with the weapons and he's picking up the baseball bat and the chainsaw and the samurai sword.

00:20:14:03 - 00:20:17:14

Cullen

And that's not to say that I don't like that's like that storyline in the movie.

00:20:18:04 - 00:20:18:16

Clark

No, but.

00:20:18:17 - 00:20:20:03

Cullen

It just means that you're.

00:20:20:03 - 00:20:21:04

Clark

Less favorite of the.

00:20:21:05 - 00:20:30:20

Cullen

It was it was just yeah, it was I think it more so was just interesting that this time I watched it and I was sort of like, huh, That like that. That part definitely captivated me less.

00:20:31:09 - 00:20:31:19

Clark

Yeah.

00:20:32:12 - 00:20:44:13

Cullen

I think that. But I do. Yeah. You know, it's I also think that I always misremember what you know, how long like I always think that the the Bruce Willis storyline ends the movie like I for some reason you.

00:20:44:13 - 00:20:45:05

Clark

Forget about.

00:20:45:05 - 00:21:03:11

Cullen

The memory come that the Yeah I guess maybe because it's non chronological that's technically is the end of the movie. Yeah but I or I guess not technically I guess figuratively it is the end of the movie. And so I always think that okay, they do the gimp thing and then the movie's over and I always forget that there's like 35 more minutes.

00:21:03:14 - 00:21:06:18

Clark

And it's a long film. This is a two and a half hour long film.

00:21:06:18 - 00:21:23:00

Cullen

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that was thing. I think that that's something that really works in the movie's favor is that it's not a movie that unless you've seen it, you know, ten times, you don't really remember it on each viewing. Like, like in terms of, like the specifics of the plot. And I always kind of like movies like that.

00:21:23:00 - 00:21:26:01

Cullen

Like, I like watching a movie where I'm like, Oh, you know, I forgot.

00:21:26:01 - 00:21:26:15

Clark

Yeah, completely.

00:21:26:15 - 00:21:27:07

Cullen

Forgot about this.

00:21:28:06 - 00:21:57:21

Clark

That's true. It does. The fact that it's non chronological. I also think that it's it's more dense than you kind of think it is in the sense that because I think the dialog is so enjoyable and the dialog is so rich in its detail, that combined with the, the, the out of chronological order storytelling, I think, you know, you can go back and watch it repeatedly and kind of enjoy it again and again.

00:21:58:06 - 00:22:15:07

Cullen

Yeah, Yeah. And the non like, you know, perhaps it's and I say this not in a negative sense, I think that this word has a lot of like charge connotation with it, but I just mean that in the most like true sense of the definition that there's like obviously a gimmicky aspect to it being out of chronological order.

00:22:15:14 - 00:22:17:01

Cullen

You know, it's, it's a bit of a gimmick.

00:22:17:08 - 00:22:35:06

Clark

Well, you know, but I'll just add here. I hear what you're saying, Quentin Tarantino's own words about why it's out of order is is this just out? You know, and you may already be aware listeners, maybe some of you, but just I'll try to summarize, you know, so Quentin spoken to this because, of course, he did this in Reservoir Dogs.

00:22:35:19 - 00:22:57:15

Clark

He's done this and a lot of and you'll even see he says like chapter you know or something and what he kind of the way he kind of categorizes what he's doing here is that he feels like he likes to write, like basically to be writing a novel. It's my understanding of his writing process that he doesn't write in a script format that he actually writes just in like a like you'd write a novel.

00:22:57:15 - 00:23:18:15

Clark

I can just prose. He's not sitting there in final draft type and stuff out. And so, you know, it sounds like he's a well read person. In addition to having watched a lot of films, it sounds like he's well read. Maybe a lot of that is Pulp Fiction, but who cares? You know, he's but I think he's kind of trying to replicate what he would experience in writing and reading a novel.

00:23:18:21 - 00:23:33:02

Clark

Yeah, it's a very common storytelling technique to write out of order of chronological order in a novel. And so he's like, Well, why the heck can't you do that in a film that I enjoy this when I read a novel, I like this, so I'm going to do it in my films. But I agree with you. I mean, it does.

00:23:33:13 - 00:23:51:10

Clark

I don't know if he consciously was like, Well, this is going to make my film different, you know? So I'm going to do that. Or I, I mean, I think it's just that, you know, so gimmick, gimmick I think is a word that I at least feel like is like, okay, this is premeditated. Like, I'm going to try to find a way to set myself apart.

00:23:51:11 - 00:24:00:03

Clark

What if I tell the story out of order? It's going to set me apart. I think it's just the way that, like it's an emanated from him authentically is what I'm trying to say.

00:24:00:05 - 00:24:04:07

Cullen

Yeah, it's what I am. And what I mean by Jim I don't necessarily mean again, not.

00:24:04:09 - 00:24:05:11

Clark

Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Yeah.

00:24:05:15 - 00:24:07:11

Cullen

Because it's obviously it's a charged word, you know.

00:24:07:12 - 00:24:07:20

Clark

Yeah.

00:24:08:00 - 00:24:37:06

Cullen

Usually it's used in a negative sense more so what I meant was that it's, it's one of those things where if this film, this film doesn't it, it works really well non chronologically and I prefer it non chronologically like. Yeah I don't think, I don't think I'd enjoy the movie as much if it was in chronological order, but it's not like a, a noir movie where you set up some sort of, you know, thrilling beginning with a question and then it ends a twist on that.

00:24:37:06 - 00:24:53:02

Cullen

It's like a good point. The order of the film doesn't actually necessarily have a payoff, Dory wise, except for, you know, a little bit of like a you know, you realize they're in the diner at the end, but even that it's not necessarily something that's like, oh, it all makes sense now.

00:24:53:02 - 00:24:54:02

Clark

Yeah, it's very similar.

00:24:54:02 - 00:25:11:08

Cullen

It's just it's just, you know, they happen to be at the diner at the end. So. So he's not in I but I like it like, I actually think that it, yeah, it bookends the film really nicely because you're kind of sitting there, you almost forget about the diner sequence when you first watch it and you're like, Well, why or why did we start on that?

00:25:11:08 - 00:25:28:10

Cullen

And, you know, where did that go? And I remember I think the first time I watched it, I remember actually thinking that and perhaps this is like the most analytical. I got up and I remember thinking, Oh, that was just to set up the world. That was just to kind of set up the atmosphere for this world that we're in, that like anything can happen.

00:25:28:10 - 00:25:51:06

Cullen

And that was my take away the first time before obviously seeing at the end come back. Yeah, but I do vividly remember that that it like cuts away and you don't go back to that. And I remember just sort of thinking like, oh, it was just like an introduction to and it does work as that two kind of works in that way of really establishing the tone and the rules for this world that it's like a it's a heightened kind of stylized world where anything can happen at any time.

00:25:51:06 - 00:26:09:10

Cullen

Someone can pull out a gun and rob the store that you're in. It works in that way. So there's a lot of like kind of like multi uses for the fact that it's that's out of chronological order. Yeah, but it's interesting that it's not. Yeah, it's not it's not necessarily driven to that in a sense of like there's plot payoff.

00:26:10:08 - 00:26:13:21

Cullen

Right. Right. Yeah. Not a bad thing. Not, not okay not a criticism. Yeah.

00:26:14:03 - 00:26:33:07

Clark

And because I don't think his films are generally too much about plot, I mean, obviously plot happens, but I don't think his films are focused on that. So I think that's a very interesting point. But I think like, I don't I don't know how many people talk about like kind of Quentin Tarantino's worldbuilding, but I actually think he does a pretty amazing job of that.

00:26:33:07 - 00:26:57:18

Clark

And it's fun to see how his films are connected and they're connected in really fun ways. Characters are related to each other from film to film, and there's just a lot of little touches that kind of connect every single one of his films. And that might be something as simple as production design the brand of the Cigarets or, you know, but but like I said, character characters being related to each other, you know.

00:26:57:18 - 00:27:26:08

Clark

But, but I think within even the film itself, I, I kind of there's something very satisfying to me about this kind of full circle, kind of that that, that everything that's going on, this little world is almost like a snow globe or something, that everything is kind of self-contained, that everything is kind of connected in some way, that all these characters are kind of connected in some way, even if they don't know it yet.

00:27:26:08 - 00:27:52:13

Clark

I don't know why that's pleasing to me, but it is like pleasing to me, you know, There's an elegance to it, I think. And it's and it feels kind of like an easy elegance here. It doesn't feel like a forced elegance, at least to me. And yeah, it doesn't really have anything to do with plot. It has to do with character and it has to do with just this like sense that this is a self-contained story.

00:27:52:13 - 00:28:20:06

Clark

The characters in it are in this little world and everything they do kind of has an impact. Yeah, and, and a consequence to everybody else. And we're going to kind of see that as we go and we might see that kind of out of order. And so I think there's small little surprises there. They're not huge, they're not plot related, but they're just, you know, kind of small little surprises that I think are really I don't know.

00:28:20:06 - 00:28:25:04

Clark

It's just it's very appealing to my kind of sense of what is elegant in a story, you know?

00:28:27:05 - 00:28:48:08

Cullen

Yeah. No, I mean, that's that's it's again, as I said, it's it's one of those things that, like, I kind of want to go back to what you said about about plot not being the center, too. Yeah. Which is something that I've really found myself, you know, very much believing in for the for the past a little while.

00:28:48:10 - 00:29:13:19

Cullen

And I think that I think that if I can go on a little bit of a tangent about like, do it, do it, go film school and stuff like that, which neither of us went to film school, but I know that there's a big, you know, you, you talk to professors and stuff like that and a lot of, you know, people who graduated from film schools that like that's like, okay, the plot, you have to have like a, you know, the perfect plot.

00:29:13:19 - 00:29:16:01

Cullen

It's got to be, you know, nailed to the ground.

00:29:16:01 - 00:29:18:02

Clark

And it's God save the can structure.

00:29:18:02 - 00:29:56:14

Cullen

Exactly. And there's all this stuff about like yeah three act structure that that you know, you have to read all these rules and this is what this is what and you know, you got to know the rules to break them, which is, you know, I guess true to a to a degree. But I think that I really like a movie that that doesn't the I guess the way that I'll put it is that you can have a movie with bad plot or lack thereof that is directed to a T that is that is really, really like well shot well you know acted just like in terms of like writing scene to scene that they'd like

00:29:56:14 - 00:30:17:15

Cullen

the dialog that's great and all that. I would take that over a movie that's poorly directed, but with just like a really brilliant plot. Yeah, you know so and I think that that's, that's kind of what I like about this movie is that it's not so concerned with, with, you know, it kind of almost feels Altman esque in a way.

00:30:17:19 - 00:30:42:21

Cullen

Hmm. You know, we did the Long Goodbye a while ago and, you know, the Long Goodbye is a movie that, like, sort of has a very vague plot. It's kind of just like Elliott Gould walking around and meeting people and not to get off of Tarantino. But I also notice that that was and these these are two filmmakers who are contemporary and are very similar.

00:30:42:21 - 00:30:52:12

Cullen

But Tarantino and Paul Thomas. Anderson Oh yeah, yeah. I noticed that a complaint about Paul Thomas Anderson's newest movie, Licorice Pizza, which I loved, I thought it was fantastic.

00:30:52:12 - 00:30:55:06

Clark

Don't tell me anything about it. So no spoilers.

00:30:55:06 - 00:31:02:08

Cullen

It's very similar. It's in that it's not got a plot. It's very much about the scene to scene.

00:31:02:08 - 00:31:04:17

Clark

Almost like Phantom Thread was very much this.

00:31:04:17 - 00:31:18:20

Cullen

Yeah, it's like, like every scene is sort of more of like an anecdote or a it's own little set piece or tableau. So that kind of feeds into the larger feel of something, but not necessarily the larger overarching plot.

00:31:18:21 - 00:31:19:05

Clark

Right.

00:31:19:08 - 00:31:24:18

Cullen

You know, if you were to ask somebody what is pulp Fiction about in a sentence.

00:31:24:21 - 00:31:25:04

Clark

No.

00:31:25:10 - 00:31:45:20

Cullen

You couldn't really give an answer like you could with a Star Wars. Like, you know, Star Wars is about a band of rebels who steal plans and have to rescue a princess to blow up a deadly. Right, right, right. But this much more you would get into the feeling. And I notice that you know, someone who's not very similar to Tarantino on a stylistic level, but you get into that with one of my favorite filmmakers, Malick as well.

00:31:45:20 - 00:32:20:05

Cullen

And I've noticed that I've been drawn towards these filmmakers recently who Michael Mann as well, who I love, who are more concerned with the moment to moment feel of their movies, with the moment to moment. You know, not I don't want to say it like it's like an everyday life sort of thing, like slice of life, because that's not really quite what I'm trying to describe, but rather this feeling that that conversations don't have to be pertinent to plot that, that you can have.

00:32:20:05 - 00:32:38:14

Cullen

And I think that that's the thing about this. You know, they spend like 4 minutes talking about cheeseburgers and it's something that kind of comes back up through the movie as a little bit of sort of like a callback. But it's not like later on, you know, the key to the mystery of, like, what's in the briefcase is, is it.

00:32:38:18 - 00:32:39:12

Clark

Brought out with.

00:32:39:12 - 00:32:44:23

Cullen

Cheese sandwiches or something? Yeah. And so I find myself drawn to that a lot.

00:32:45:06 - 00:33:03:20

Clark

I, I hold, I just, I just have this total crazy thought. I just imagine. Can you. So if, like, Bruckheimer did this or something, I could imagine that the end of the film, there'd be a bomb that's about to go off and they have to like guess the password to turn off the bomb. And they're like, Oh my God, what Royale with cheese.

00:33:03:20 - 00:33:07:13

Clark

And it like disarms the bomb with like, you know, one second left. Okay?

00:33:07:13 - 00:33:23:08

Cullen

So it's not it's not a movie that necessarily it's a movie that simultaneously deals a lot with set up and payoff, but also plays with that trope in that like half of the things that are set up don't have payoff. And it's not in a frustrating way. It's just in a really interesting kind of.

00:33:23:08 - 00:33:52:17

Clark

Or payoff in a different way. Kind of, Yeah. You know Yeah, there there is a lot of and I guess that's what I'm trying to hint at when I say like I feel like there really is kind of this just intuitive elegance to this where I feel, yeah, first of all, I feel and I think we all just as an audience member, you don't have to be a super articulate cinephile or critic to kind of feel this, but you watch a movie and you know, sometimes you'll watch a movie and you'll you'll you just feel like you are in the hands of somebody who really knows what they're doing.

00:33:53:02 - 00:34:19:14

Clark

And you can settle in and you trust a filmmaker, you trust the storyteller, and you just go along for the ride and you're totally able to focus on the story because you just you feel like you're in such good hands. Mm hmm. I like I would say that is a rarity. Most films that I watch, there's always like, I'm not fully engage because there's always a part of me that's like, Oh, that, that was like just a little less than elegant.

00:34:19:19 - 00:34:41:13

Clark

That was like, I see where they were. I see where the mark they were trying to hit. They got close, but they didn't quite hit it. It didn't it's not a perfectly that's not a perfectly like, elegant solution. They didn't perfectly make that jump or that, you know. So but, but in this film I really don't get a sense of any of that.

00:34:41:13 - 00:35:01:20

Clark

So if that but but I think this is a bit I think these little setups and payoffs that are that are that are kind of spread throughout the film and they're not huge. Right? They don't have to be huge. Often they're just in dialog or how the characters are sharing the same space and kind of interact later or something like that.

00:35:02:16 - 00:35:04:19

Clark

But it's just very satisfying to me.

00:35:05:04 - 00:35:35:16

Cullen

Well, even even with the feature that I made, I is watching it now. There's a lot of things that I think I missed. You know, I can I can point out and say like, oh, you know, I didn't really hit the mark on that, that I wanted to. Yeah. But it's one of those things that, you know what the one that I'm writing, it's almost like if you worry less about really writing something to hit a very, very specific thing in your head and then try to execute that perfectly.

00:35:35:16 - 00:35:58:19

Cullen

Whereas what I think this sort of does and what I'm what I've learned from that is that if you write something where you get an idea or a gist of it, and then on set you work out, okay, this is how we're going to do it, that that can be a more effective way of hitting those marks. And I can see that, you know, Tarantino is obviously someone who who likes to work a lot a lot on set and talk to actors and try things.

00:35:58:19 - 00:36:25:03

Cullen

And and what's interesting is that, again, you know, a lot of people in my generation in yours too, are really, really inspired by Tarantino and take a lot from him. I've found that I've always sort of not been not necessarily that I'm not inspired by him, but he's he's never really hit my you know, like to say, if I have had to rank the top ten directors that have really what I do, that's not to say I don't like him.

00:36:25:03 - 00:36:46:09

Cullen

There are plenty of directors that I, I love that that aren't that necessarily don't necessarily like inspire me stylistically. Yeah but what I will say also with that though, is that he's somebody that is really, really helpful, even though I don't necessarily stylistically pull from Tarantino that I can look at the way that he makes a movie and I can go, okay, that so like that's what he's doing here.

00:36:47:03 - 00:37:15:13

Cullen

How can I apply that and kind of turn that into something myself and turn into my own work? And so I think that that's, you know, he's he's a really valuable filmmaker in that way, if that makes sense. Even the movies of his like I'm not a really big fan of The Hateful Eight, but I would still, you know, there's still such a depth of stuff to study about that movie versus something like, you know, you know, the latest Marvel movie or something like that.

00:37:15:13 - 00:37:36:17

Cullen

Like there's just there's, like you said, someone who really knows what they're doing and deeply cares about cinema is always going to like even there, you know, or even with Herzog. The Herzog movies that I maybe don't love still like it. Similarly to this, I don't necessarily mean that I can't get anything out of them. In fact, quite the opposite.

00:37:36:21 - 00:37:37:06

Clark

Yeah.

00:37:37:13 - 00:37:54:13

Cullen

Course. But this is not one of those movies that I would say is like that. This is a movie that I think that I really do like. Yeah, but, but it is just sort of interesting that, like even the directorial choices that he makes here that I don't necessarily agree with on a stylistic level. Yeah, I still am fascinated with them.

00:37:54:18 - 00:37:58:02

Cullen

Yeah. Yeah. Looking at them and going, okay, like, what's he doing here?

00:37:58:09 - 00:38:11:21

Clark

Well, you, I mean, that's the thing is like, look, you don't ever and this is I think this right, this film came out, this combined with Reservoir Dogs, his posters are on every college dorm room I ever you know, was went into. Yeah.

00:38:11:21 - 00:38:12:23

Cullen

When still to this day.

00:38:13:03 - 00:38:31:17

Clark

Yeah and well and that's interesting to know because I have a bed in a college dorm room in a really long time but I certainly know it was like you had Bob Marley and you had Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction, and that was like what people had on their wall when I was a kid. But yeah, I mean, and I think that's the trap that people fall into, though, you know, there's nothing wrong with that.

00:38:31:21 - 00:38:48:21

Clark

People have been inspired by his work, but then they try to ape the specifics of, you know, of what made him him and yeah, and that's just never going to work there. You aren't him. Nobody's him. You have to be your own person and you have to have your own authentic voice. And that the irony is, of course, is that that's what he did.

00:38:48:21 - 00:39:11:16

Clark

You know, he was for, you know, steadfastly his own film maker. And it just so happened that there was a market for for who he is and what he made. But but he didn't change himself to find some market. He didn't you know, a lot of people argue that he steals a lot and he does, but he definitely makes it his own.

00:39:12:10 - 00:39:14:13

Cullen

And Yeah, and that's exactly what I mean is that.

00:39:14:16 - 00:39:24:17

Clark

You can't yeah, it's good that you don't want to take all of his pieces of how he makes a film and make a film or. You wouldn't want to do that with any other, whether it's Malick or anybody else. You know, you want to be your own film maker.

00:39:25:12 - 00:39:42:00

Cullen

I think that's what's important is if I guess anyone is listening to this and they are starting out or they're a film school student or something that like I know a lot of people who when they made short films, when they made movies they like, tried to emulate. Tarantino's like writing style. Well, in the book you write dialog.

00:39:42:00 - 00:39:44:07

Clark

I don't think there's anything wrong with that in the beginning.

00:39:44:13 - 00:39:49:00

Cullen

No, to practice, no. But I think that when you're when you're trying to.

00:39:49:00 - 00:39:49:22

Clark

You'll grow out of it.

00:39:50:02 - 00:40:12:07

Cullen

Yeah. And when you're well if you're like, you know, if you're, if you're trying to make a short film to kind of be like a in a way a proof of concept for yourself as a director, right. That, you know, should write that Tarantino screenplay, you know, take it and try to emulate his dialog, but then do another draft where you you say, okay, how am I going to like, what if I pull the Tarantino out of it?

00:40:12:07 - 00:40:15:05

Cullen

It's a process because I think that that yeah, I think the.

00:40:15:17 - 00:40:32:02

Clark

Voice is a you know, finding your own voice is definitely a process and I always try to be like and it and it may change over time, but ideally it will change as you grow as a person. But I would like I think a lot of people, they look at this is I think another reason why Tarantino is kind of an inspiration.

00:40:32:15 - 00:40:53:13

Clark

It seems like Tarantino arrived fully formed, right? Yes. Yeah, because because he popped on the scene with Reservoir Dogs. It was a substantial film, you know, And, you know, he wrote True Romance, which was also a successful and substantial film. He wrote Natural Born Killers was which was still successful and did have an impact. It's a controversial film.

00:40:53:13 - 00:41:24:09

Clark

A lot of people love it. A lot of people hate it. I think it's horrible. Of course, the script is radically different as Stone has rewritten it, but nonetheless, Quentin's name's there. But you know, and then and then, you know, for his sophomore slump, he didn't have a slump. He had a you know, he created a masterpiece. So but but one of the things that I think is interesting is that, you know, before he got to the place where he was selling scripts and before he got to a place where he had reservoir, you know, in listening to the I think the only commentary track he's done for any of his films, he did a

00:41:24:09 - 00:41:47:02

Clark

commentary track for True Romance, of course, which he only wrote, but he does a commentary track on that. And he talks about how he wrote at least 30 scripts before he was able to kind of find his voice and complete a full script that he was happy with and wanted to do something with. Mm hmm. I started writing, he says, when he was, you know, something like, I mean, ridiculously young.

00:41:47:03 - 00:42:09:02

Clark

You know, I forget what he says there, but I mean, maybe even as far back as seven, he started writing. So it takes time, you know? And it wasn't like he just sat down and wrote a couple of scripts and they became Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction. Sometimes it's easy to forget that. So it's a process. You know, I think if you write 30 scripts at your own at home, you're going to start to find your voice, even if it.

00:42:09:02 - 00:42:10:02

Cullen

Isn't exactly.

00:42:10:08 - 00:42:17:13

Clark

Kind of aping somebody else's. Keep writing. You'll find your own voice. Yeah, Yeah.

00:42:17:13 - 00:42:30:10

Cullen

No. And I think that that's that's a very good point to make because, yeah, it's not in nobody. There's not really any such thing as like an overnight success in the way that there is.

00:42:31:00 - 00:42:32:01

Clark

Not really even.

00:42:32:01 - 00:42:42:15

Cullen

People who you know, you might say someone who I actually I don't think I've seen any of his movies but this guy David Samberg, who was like a YouTube short film guy, I have.

00:42:42:15 - 00:42:43:12

Clark

No idea who that is.

00:42:43:12 - 00:43:07:06

Cullen

Warner Brothers discovered one of his movies and he's now directing, like, big blockbusters. Oh, well, literally just from being discovered on YouTube, which is really cool. And he's he seems like a really nice guy. I've just I've just not really seen many of his movies or many of them. But, you know, if you go to his YouTube channel, he was making movies for like 20 or ten years, like he was making short films for like ten years before.

00:43:07:07 - 00:43:22:06

Cullen

Yeah. So you might say, oh, he was an overnight success in the way that he made one short film that got big and Warner Brothers wanted to make a feature out of it, but it was a long before that. But he had been making movies for how long? You know, And I think that that's something that's really, really tough to play with.

00:43:22:06 - 00:43:47:08

Cullen

You know, there is something that I always tried to keep my myself from thinking was that like, okay, I'm going to make a feature and then that's it. I'm just going to get to sit back and coast on the on the fact that I made a feature, right? And you kind of have to like through the entire process, whether it is you're making a feature or you're making a short film or you're writing a screenplay and whatever, you kind of have to keep thinking like, no, no, no, Like this is not this is not the final step.

00:43:47:08 - 00:43:52:01

Cullen

I'm never on the final step. Yeah, You know, it's just a very long staircase.

00:43:52:09 - 00:43:53:09

Clark

Just a process. Yeah.

00:43:53:09 - 00:44:02:10

Cullen

And so, so like, was soon as I finished my movie, as soon as I wrapped the final cut of it and sent it off to festivals, I didn't just sit back and go, okay, I'm done.

00:44:02:10 - 00:44:03:14

Clark

I immediately to writing.

00:44:03:14 - 00:44:04:15

Cullen

Three other movies.

00:44:04:15 - 00:44:04:23

Clark

Yeah.

00:44:05:18 - 00:44:23:09

Cullen

And was planning on what I wanted to do next. And I was going, okay, how am I going to market this movie? Am I going to simultaneously while I'm writing my next one's? How do I use this as a jumping off board to make those? And so I think that's the same thing is that like in the next movie I'm writing is very different but also still has, you know, I would say, a more distilled version of my voice.

00:44:23:09 - 00:44:33:13

Cullen

And I think it's similar with Tarantino, like you said, that just because his first two movies were big movies doesn't mean that he hadn't. You know, and you can see years and years of if was struggling.

00:44:33:13 - 00:45:03:02

Clark

Like if you read his original script for Natural Born Killers, not in that Stone's version, but if you read it and you read True Romance script and you know, if you read these back to back and then you read Reservoir Dogs and you read Pulp Fiction, you'll see that he is constantly refining his voice. You'll see that there's these basic narrative threads, these basic character types, even like base kind of fundamental plot devices are the same in in piece or in whole throughout all these films.

00:45:03:13 - 00:45:09:23

Clark

And he keeps going back to the same place over and over. But he's refining, refining, refining.

00:45:10:19 - 00:45:34:19

Cullen

I think is something else that's kind of inspiring about him is that both with writing and direction, he very clearly does not care to fit in. Yeah, and I think that that's something that also takes a lot of courage that a lot of time when you're writing a screenplay or you're directing something as a beginning, you're kind of thinking, okay, what?

00:45:34:19 - 00:45:50:07

Cullen

I've got to make something that people want to see without kind of going, Hang on. If I just make something true to myself, then I can just hope that what I am doing is something that people want to see. And I think that that's something that's that's, that's, you know, really.

00:45:50:12 - 00:46:04:06

Clark

Really got to make something is, you know, the language he uses and I and other people have used it, too. And I tend to agree with this, is that you've got to make a film that you want to see. Yes. Right. I mean, it has to be a film that you want to see. And I know that, you know, there's that.

00:46:05:02 - 00:46:19:06

Clark

And a lot of I think it's it's one of the reasons that I enjoy him. And and I think that, you know, sadly, there's the market is now filled with films that are kind of focus group created. So that's you know all the.

00:46:19:09 - 00:46:21:09

Cullen

But primarily that that's you know.

00:46:21:09 - 00:46:29:03

Clark

That's and there's so there aren't as many films I think that that are a kind of a singular vision know of someone.

00:46:29:13 - 00:46:31:08

Cullen

They're just they're very much the exception.

00:46:31:19 - 00:46:51:19

Clark

Especially at this budget you know he's making $100 million movies sometimes like Django Unchained, for example, is like a $100 million film. Once Upon a time, I think was probably right around $100 million. Yeah, I think so. So there there just aren't that many filmmakers who are able to make a film that's their singular vision from beginning to end.

00:46:51:19 - 00:47:13:04

Clark

It's his script. He writes it. He doesn't have to modify it to get budget. He shoots it directly and directs it. It's exactly what he wants. And he's got final cut and boom, you know, and he you know, it's like a props to Sony with Once Upon a time I think China refused to release it. Of course China is a this the largest market now.

00:47:13:12 - 00:47:27:18

Clark

Yeah and and going to India was like no I'm not changing this so that it can be released in China. I don't remember exactly how that sussed out. I don't know if it would, you know, if it was eventually able to be. But I know that he didn't, he didn't change.

00:47:27:20 - 00:47:40:12

Cullen

And the unfortunate aspect about that is that it's it's you know, you have to at this point and perhaps this is something about just like the state of the film industry today. But you you have to be a Tarantino or a Spielberg or.

00:47:40:12 - 00:47:41:16

Clark

Yeah.

00:47:41:16 - 00:47:42:05

Cullen

You know.

00:47:42:13 - 00:47:43:17

Clark

To get a film director that.

00:47:43:17 - 00:47:48:14

Cullen

Has a has a not only to get a film made, but to get, you know, final cut rights and to get.

00:47:48:16 - 00:48:02:03

Clark

Well, even those other filmmakers. I think Quentin Tarantino is even more unique than most of these other filmmakers, because even some of these big filmmakers that you talk about, they have trouble getting financed like Scorsese. Yeah.

00:48:02:11 - 00:48:06:04

Cullen

Has yeah. Has had to go to Netflix for the Irish, right?

00:48:06:04 - 00:48:13:22

Clark

Yeah. And it's there aren't many filmmakers I can think of. And I think even Spielberg doesn't necessarily have an ace in the hole.

00:48:13:22 - 00:48:14:12

Cullen

For.

00:48:14:12 - 00:48:16:12

Clark

No getting a budget for a film.

00:48:16:17 - 00:48:24:05

Cullen

And maybe one day will do. You know, this might be a neat episode to actually just talk about kind of the state of the film industry today. Maybe we'll do that one day, but.

00:48:25:07 - 00:48:49:10

Clark

Well, I want to touch on something real quick. I want to go back to something because this is I'm curious about this and you've mentioned this a couple of times. You said that you feel like Quentin Tarantino is is like a quote unquote phase that people go through and that almost every film student, at least you work with or that you've seen latches on to Tarantino as a director, maybe first or in the beginning or, or it's almost.

00:48:49:10 - 00:48:50:19

Cullen

It's kind of like, yeah, it's, it's.

00:48:50:19 - 00:49:08:05

Clark

Like a given. It's almost like a given. I'm curious, what do you think that is? Like why? You know, why do you think that he is so popular so immediately with people who are interested in film and maybe want to make films? You know what? I'm curious, what's your thought?

00:49:08:05 - 00:49:15:23

Cullen

I think and I think it's because it's one of those things where fuselages are killing me.

00:49:15:23 - 00:49:20:16

Clark

Oh, my gosh. I don't think that if you're not editing that out.

00:49:20:16 - 00:49:43:00

Cullen

Yeah, I think one of the things is, is that you have these kids who are growing up, you know, elementary school, middle school. It's not really often that a parent is going to be like, we're going to go see the new R-rated Tarantino movie or we're going to rent the R rated Tarantino movie. Maybe a little bit more common these days with Netflix, where it's like you don't necessarily have control as to what a kid is watching.

00:49:44:13 - 00:50:15:19

Cullen

But at least back in my day, back in my day when it was Blockbuster and stuff like that and you didn't have that and you as well, I'm sure every the thing is that Tarantino is he is a loud, confident, um, unique filmmaker. And I think that you turn 14 and this is, this is again this is something that I saw happen to all of my friends not this is a bad thing by any means.

00:50:15:19 - 00:50:40:05

Cullen

I'm not saying this is like this. This is the warning story of catching the Tarantino, but it's just something that I've noticed happen to all my friends. And I've noticed it happened to, like most of the film students I teach you turn 14 and you see Pulp Fiction for the first time, or you see Kill Bill or you see you see, you know, Inglourious Basterds and you go, This is so and I don't mean loud in a bad way.

00:50:40:05 - 00:51:01:11

Cullen

This is so, but it's loud. It's confident. It is. It wears its it's hard on its sleeve. And you go, I can do that. I can do that with things that I love. And so you kind of go and I remember in high school we were like when we were in a contact class, we one of the assignments was to make three different movies, and one of my friends was like, Well, we have to make a Tarantino movie.

00:51:01:11 - 00:51:18:02

Cullen

It was like you had to make three different movies in three different genres. And it's like it's it's almost its own genre. Like this idea of Tarantino, this kind of like I described is sort of like almost like a jukebox sense of like all these different genres or remix might be a better way to describe it of like taking all these things that Tarantino loves and putting them into one.

00:51:18:18 - 00:51:23:21

Cullen

And it's honestly, he is one of the easier filmmakers to emulate the style of.

00:51:24:10 - 00:51:26:03

Clark

Well, superficially, maybe.

00:51:26:03 - 00:51:37:20

Cullen

Superficially, yes. But I mean, like, it's very you know, if I, if I when I was in grade ten, I could I could superficially emulate the style of Tarantino. And most people who have seen a Tarantino film would be like, Oh, I.

00:51:37:21 - 00:51:39:09

Clark

Get it, I know what you're trying to do.

00:51:39:10 - 00:52:17:23

Cullen

Yeah, from the title cards. Yeah, the music that he uses, the the way the camera moves, the energy, the performances, the dialog. Yeah. It's really something that's super, super accessible for, for a lot of like kids around that age, I think, and, you know, filmmakers around that age. And so I think that it just winds up being this thing where it's like, well, I don't know quite what I want to write, so I'm going to write a really badass sword fight, but I'm going to make it super Like I remember when I was applying to go to film school, you know, everyone's making these like very artsy, like black and white.

00:52:17:23 - 00:52:39:12

Cullen

So here's a, you know, person sitting on a park bench who sees their old self pass by and writes a letter and it's like, you know, all that kind of thing, too, to get in. And I made this, like, you know, crazy, like, kill Bill style samurai sword fight. And I got into school. I didn't I didn't wind up going, but I like got into all the schools that I had been in that do.

00:52:39:12 - 00:52:52:11

Cullen

And I think it's just something that like it's so boisterous and it's it's really it's just very stylistic stylistically accessible again I guess that's is the word I can say. Is that it?

00:52:52:15 - 00:53:13:23

Clark

Well, it obviously has an impact on people. I you know, my experience is a little different. So I don't have a lot of exposure to to young film students. The exposure that I had to film students was so, for example, at UCLA or AFI, especially AFI. So we're talking about graduate students and AFI has a pretty high level of graduate student.

00:53:14:14 - 00:53:38:19

Clark

And the reason I had exposure to them is that through SAG, I was on AFI's list of actors that students could like. I was in an actor pool that students could pull from to make their films, their projects, their as they were going through their conservatory. So I even was attended some classes and was involved as an actor in in classes where directors would work with us.

00:53:38:19 - 00:53:56:18

Clark

And then I've been in some AFI films. Okay. And it's funny because it couldn't be more opposite at that level. So I wonder, I almost have this hypothesis where it's like, you're a kid, I was sick use kid, you know, broadly, but you're.

00:53:56:18 - 00:53:57:17

Cullen

Young, early teenager.

00:53:57:17 - 00:54:18:13

Clark

Yeah. And, and this like, really jumps out at you and and you're almost like you don't any fear of, of trying to like steal from it right so you know you're like oh well this jumped this is this was awesome. I felt something when I watched this. So I want to emulate that. I want to also do something that's kinetic and cinematic and vibrant.

00:54:19:17 - 00:54:32:03

Clark

And like you said, it's at least superficially, you can kind of point to the stylistic, you know, what, what you feel like is making this, quote unquote Quentin Tarantino at Quentin sorry Tarantino esque.

00:54:32:16 - 00:54:33:12

Cullen

Long term task.

00:54:33:15 - 00:54:43:15

Clark

But what I see. Yeah, but what I feel like I saw when these older film students is like these brooding like, you know, I mean, this like very.

00:54:43:15 - 00:54:45:15

Cullen

Very deeply like thrill.

00:54:45:15 - 00:55:08:00

Clark

Where it's like, yeah, this is super deep. And I'm going to like really, you know, it's is going to be an introspective, deep, character driven meditation on character. And it would be black and white. And I'm just going to like you. I like I love your description of like this, a character sitting on a park bench watching like, their older self.

00:55:08:21 - 00:55:11:01

Cullen

Yeah. And it's all it's all like.

00:55:11:02 - 00:55:40:20

Clark

You know, it's just like this, this horse pucky, man. And I was involved in numerous scripts that were pretty similar to that, where I was just like, uh, you know, like there's just it's like this. There's such a desire to be deep. And I was it almost feels like it like, like a rebellion against or like, you know, okay, we, I can't be kinetic and like, you know, in the way that Quentin does his films.

00:55:40:20 - 00:56:01:06

Clark

I've got to, like, Rebel. I've got to, like, move as far as I feel like I can from the head. And I'm going to be introspective and, you know, all this kind of stuff that we just described. So I don't know. That's kind of my exposure. I wish that I would have gotten to be in a film where I could director it if I wanted to make a Tarantino esque film, you know?

00:56:01:11 - 00:56:24:01

Cullen

Yeah. I mean, I think and I think that that's you you kind of got it right on the again, I don't want to say grow out of it sense because it's like I don't mean to sound like like Tarantino is only an entry level filmmaker, but rather that I think that people are because it's so accessible and because, you know, for example, like if if something exciting happens, Tarantino pushes in on it.

00:56:24:09 - 00:56:44:08

Cullen

And so as a new filmmaker, you can go, okay, I understand why he's pushing in there. And so but I do think that you're right in saying that it's it's something that people then take and then you kind of like with everything you make, you chip off that style a little bit more until it's it's you're at the core of what you want to make.

00:56:45:03 - 00:56:46:09

Cullen

And it just sometimes like.

00:56:46:11 - 00:56:48:20

Clark

When I saw I definitely did that exactly.

00:56:48:20 - 00:56:56:21

Cullen

But sometimes it becomes something where people want to immediately. It's like one of those things where, you know, because it's popular, it can't be good. Yeah.

00:56:57:02 - 00:56:57:15

Clark

So people that.

00:56:57:15 - 00:57:08:18

Cullen

People are really into Tarantino in high school and, you know, a lot of people continue to be on into him in university. But then you've got those people who are like, well, men and all everyone likes him. So clearly I'm not I got.

00:57:08:18 - 00:57:09:11

Clark

To do something else.

00:57:09:12 - 00:57:13:06

Cullen

Yeah, I've got to do something that's more introspective.

00:57:13:14 - 00:57:15:02

Clark

Yep. Yeah, it's got to be.

00:57:15:03 - 00:57:21:23

Cullen

And I think that that, you know, that always just winds up. I think you're at that point just kind of faking another side of it.

00:57:22:06 - 00:57:44:21

Clark

Uh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah, I have. I'm curious, but it is interesting. I mean, I in not that we're going to solve the riddle or get to the heart of all of it here, but it is interesting that, that your experience is that younger film students that this is and you know, it makes sense in a sense I mean I could kind of see how for sure that, you know, Tarantino's films are they're exciting.

00:57:45:07 - 00:58:10:04

Clark

They're filled with action. And and so they could be appealing to a wider audience and maybe a younger audience. It's a lot easier to watch this than, let's say, you know, if you're seven years old, this is an easier film to watch than 2001 or especially like, you know, any, you know, Seven Samurai. I mean, God yeah, I mean, how many films or, you know, it'd be difficult to digest.

00:58:10:04 - 00:58:12:02

Clark

Difficult to understand. Yeah.

00:58:12:10 - 00:58:12:16

Cullen

Yeah.

00:58:13:04 - 00:58:35:04

Clark

So for sure, I could see how his films are definitely more readily accessible because I think he's taken, you know, so many pieces from genre films, exploitation films, action films, horror films, westerns, I mean, very popular genres. And combine them all into this big melting pot, you know, and kind of thrown his own personality and, you know, voice into it.

00:58:35:11 - 00:59:06:01

Clark

So for sure, it makes sense. And I think, you know, it's like, well, the thing I liked when I was 12, geez, I can't I can't. I'm 22 and I'm at AFI. I can't make the that I loved when I was 12 because. Yeah, boy, what does that say about me? I yeah, so, so I think that sometimes happens, but I mean, so for me I love all those genres of I love exploitation films, I love, you know, the spaghetti westerns and horror films.

00:59:06:01 - 00:59:30:06

Clark

And, you know, now my kind of base of references is like a generation later than Tarantino's. So a lot of the stuff that he loves and a lot of stuff that he references, is it necessarily? Some of it is. But just the idea, though, I mean, I feel like, you know, he's kind of the front end of Gen X, I'm kind of the back end of Gen Gen X, I think we're still and we're still in the same generation.

00:59:30:07 - 00:59:49:17

Clark

There's not that many years apart. And I feel like we were kind of like I was raised on television, I was raised on the radio, I was raised on VHS, I was raised on MTV, I was raised on pop culture. I consumed just a ridiculous amount of it as a kid. And so I get a lot of that.

00:59:49:19 - 01:00:04:22

Clark

You know, I, I get a lot of what he's doing. It resonates with me. Do you does that part resonate with you at all, or is that different for your generation? Because I we're both Gen Z and I think we're both Gen X, I know I am. I think he is.

01:00:05:02 - 01:00:05:18

Cullen

Yeah, he would be.

01:00:05:18 - 01:00:09:10

Clark

Yeah. And that part definitely resonates with me.

01:00:09:19 - 01:00:25:09

Cullen

I think, you know, it definitely does. It resonates. I mean I think that the thing is that I always try to say to like students of mine who are really into Tarantino is don't try to make a Tarantino movie. Look at the sources that Tarantino uses, Look at the stuff that he loves and if you want to make something, look at.

01:00:25:18 - 01:00:27:09

Clark

Something that you love even.

01:00:27:09 - 01:00:43:22

Cullen

Yeah. Or yeah and vice versa. Yeah. Or something that you like. But like I think that that's the thing is it's, it's you know, you're kind of when you when you say Tarantino samples a lot.

01:00:44:04 - 01:00:44:11

Clark

Yeah.

01:00:44:17 - 01:01:04:07

Cullen

Um and I think that the the best way to analyze his work in a way is to like go back to the source of those samples. Sure. And so no, but, but I and so I yeah, I totally agree that like a lot of, you know a lot of what I would do again when I like when I direct obviously I like I like Hitchcock, I like Malick, I like Kubrick.

01:01:04:12 - 01:01:17:22

Cullen

Yeah, But I'm never sitting there asking myself, okay, like how like how would Malick or how would Kubrick direct this scene? Right? Or at least if I'm doing that, if I'm asking myself that question, it's more of an exercise.

01:01:17:23 - 01:01:23:18

Clark

Yeah, well, I don't think he's doing that. Do you? I don't think. I think Quentin is like, do you think Quentin is doing that?

01:01:23:18 - 01:01:29:13

Cullen

No, no, no. And that but that's what I mean is that it's it's, it's but I think that that's the mistake that a lot younger people make.

01:01:29:16 - 01:02:19:19

Clark

Yeah. I think like because what I get a sense of and this is what I think speaks to me is that there's there's like in in Cody right there's like you know is there is a cultural encoding in these in the references that he's using. So so it's it's like he is you know he, he is like adding to and using this to this of this encoded this cultural encoding in all these references on purpose with great specificity, whether it's with his songs or whether it's with a certain, you know, with the specific like explicit cultural references in dialog or with the kind of implicit way that he might stage a scene in a similar

01:02:19:19 - 01:02:23:03

Clark

manner or use a similar type of shot, like, for example, or even just.

01:02:23:03 - 01:02:24:16

Cullen

Get a performance in an act or.

01:02:24:16 - 01:02:49:01

Clark

Performance of an act of something as simple as like using the zooms in Django. And it's it's a direct callback to the way Sergio Leone would use zooms and his films. And a lot of people wouldn't recognize that in any kind of conscious way. But on a subconscious level, he's kind of incorporating that. The cultural encoding and history and bringing it into his films in a new context.

01:02:49:01 - 01:02:51:20

Clark

So that resonates with me quite a bit, I think.

01:02:51:20 - 01:03:12:15

Cullen

Oh, totally, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the way that I make something is that I, you know, I watch something that inspires me that I like a lot. Yeah. And you take it in you, you, you know, you, you, for lack of a better term, you consume the material and then your brain sort of does something with it and breaks it down.

01:03:12:15 - 01:03:30:12

Cullen

It's going like digests it well, breaks it down into its fundamentals, right? It becomes and so then when I'm directing something or when I'm writing something or whatever, what I'm not doing is is going, oh, you know, Kubrick shot that in a way, so I'm just going to take that shot. What I'm doing is like, okay, how did that shot make me feel on a fundamental level?

01:03:30:12 - 01:03:49:09

Cullen

And how can I then use what I know to replicate that feeling but in a way that I would do it? I think that's that's what Tarantino does, is that he he repurposes those things, he digests them, and then he goes well, that, you know, the way that these exploitation films used to make me feel was because they were really kinetic.

01:03:49:16 - 01:04:08:10

Cullen

But he's not using the kinetic system literally from an exploitation film. I'm going like, Well, he moved the camera. Like, there's that really sweet shot. Obviously there are some very specific shot references, but for the most part it's, you know, okay, they the the camera moves in this way that follows a character like this. How do I adapt that?

01:04:08:10 - 01:04:21:02

Cullen

How do you how do I digest that and understand this kinetic system much more so like, you know, in a more broad sense then like a specific like, well, I'm going to set up this shot and light it to be exactly like it was this, this other movie.

01:04:21:04 - 01:04:43:14

Clark

I think a lot of it just happens. I mean, a lot of it is just that we, you know, everything that you consume as an artist becomes part of you and especially the things that you consume. I think when you were younger that become kind of a foundational part of your personality. It's like I and different people are different, you know, it's like I, I feel very affected by the pop culture that I consumed.

01:04:43:14 - 01:05:05:13

Clark

And I don't see pop culture in a derogatory sense, but but television, film and music that I consumed in my formative years had a huge impact on me. It it informed a large part of who I am. And I was talking to my wife about this. So my wife had an interesting central point where like digressing a little bit here, but what the heck, why not?

01:05:07:00 - 01:05:27:02

Clark

My wife grew up in a stricter family where she did not have access to it. Kind of does, you know, 6 to 12 or 8 to 12. These like really pivotal years. She didn't have access to to a lot of pop culture. She didn't watch television. She didn't really see cinema and she didn't listen to a lot of popular current music.

01:05:27:15 - 01:05:57:11

Clark

And it's very interesting the difference that that kind of you know, it's hard for her to kind of understand how important those things are to me because she doesn't have that same experience. And I don't, you know, and so it's different from person to person. Not everybody has that same experience. But I think that's one of the things that I feel very connected to Quentin about, is that I, I sense how important those things were to him and his childhood and how informative they were and formative.

01:05:58:05 - 01:06:18:12

Clark

And I feel, you know, different sources for me, but I get that. So it's interesting to see him kind of turn that into something else as an adult. It'll be interesting to see how he grows, you know, if this next film that he makes, whatever that is, is actually his final film, it'll be interesting to see what he does next.

01:06:19:02 - 01:06:19:10

Clark

Yeah.

01:06:19:16 - 01:06:20:02

Cullen

Yeah.

01:06:20:03 - 01:06:49:01

Clark

If he writes or what he does. But there's something else I want to bring up because we're getting a little over an hour here. I want to talk to you just about a couple of things real quick. I'm curious, like when this film came out, I remember very specifically how people were discussing critics and just, you know, the people on the street watching it were really blown away by the the violence that they felt this felt like they felt like it was just hyper violent, just over-the-top violent like, oh, my gosh.

01:06:49:10 - 01:06:55:13

Clark

Which I don't know that I thought about too much then, but thinking about it later, I'm really surprised about I'm.

01:06:55:13 - 01:06:57:01

Cullen

Surprised about way less violence.

01:06:57:01 - 01:07:16:14

Clark

I remember well, and I'm curious, I want to add, you know, because it's like there were a lot of films now because the eighties was all about mega violence, right? I mean, Rambo movies like Rambo, Die Hard. The second one and the third one, Die Hard. You've got all the Arnold Schwarzenegger movies like they're all much.

01:07:16:14 - 01:07:17:22

Cullen

More violent than this.

01:07:18:08 - 01:07:29:11

Clark

And yeah, I mean, where there's like literally hundreds of people being killed, like literally hundreds of people are being killed, just blown away. Right. Just machine gunned down.

01:07:30:02 - 01:07:30:10

Cullen

Mm hmm.

01:07:31:06 - 01:07:39:07

Clark

What do you think? Is that what do you why do you think people saw this film and thought, wow, this is insane violence?

01:07:39:16 - 01:07:49:10

Cullen

And I think it's the the the a, I think it's one it's it's casual in this movie. It's more casual than it than it is in like an action film.

01:07:49:10 - 01:07:53:09

Clark

Where it Tell me more about what you mean by that. Like when you say it's so it's elaborate.

01:07:53:09 - 01:08:26:19

Cullen

And it's presented in it's and it's I mean it's easy to you can't get those those violent sneezes out of my head. We're going to be I think that it's it's it's casual in a sense that it's presented not necessarily as violence was before. It's not big and grand and blockbuster. It's quite you know, there's the joke, you know, Marvin started being blown off is like it's very like, oh, man, it's like dealt with in a way that's sort of more comedic.

01:08:26:19 - 01:08:28:19

Cullen

I also think that. But don't you? Not only is.

01:08:29:07 - 01:08:32:23

Clark

I feel like that would undercut. It's interesting because I feel like there is almost I think.

01:08:32:23 - 01:08:51:15

Cullen

It's just because it's different. I think more so people didn't know how to react to it because I think the other thing too, is that it's a it's violent in a way that people like. I think one of the reasons people might assume this is violent is because the way people talk to each other in the movie is violence or violent.

01:08:51:15 - 01:08:58:05

Cullen

Quote unquote. There's a lot of like, you know, just yelling at each other and like telling someone to, you know, shut up and I'm.

01:08:58:05 - 01:08:59:05

Clark

Cool, honey Bunny.

01:08:59:10 - 01:09:13:12

Cullen

Exactly. Yeah. And so I think that perhaps that's it. Like the the scene opens on them, you know, when they run out and rob the thing. And she's like, oh, blast every one of you. And it's like, you get that kind of thing. Which I think, you know, just one.

01:09:13:12 - 01:09:13:22

Clark

Of the best.

01:09:13:22 - 01:09:20:13

Cullen

I think that was yeah. And I just think that people didn't really know what to think. And so I think.

01:09:20:13 - 01:09:57:10

Clark

It's a novel to be in while it was presented you feel like heightened it in people's minds. Yeah yeah I you're on the I agree with you in the same kind of vein think you know it's interesting Quentin Tarantino undercuts almost every if not every scene of violence with humor and it I don't think people talk often about how how humorous the film is but almost every scene, if not every scene, is totally undercut or has either undercut by humor or it has humor around it and really funny humor.

01:09:57:23 - 01:10:24:15

Clark

And you'd think and you would think that that would de-emphasize or disarm some of the violence. But it didn't. But I mean, whether it's like Mia Wallace getting the adrenaline shot right in the heart I remember everybody just going on and on about that when this movie first came out. And you have like this totally hysterical button at the end of that scene where, you know, the the woman with all the piercings is like, groovy man.

01:10:24:15 - 01:10:26:15

Cullen

Yeah, this is it. That was trippy. Yeah. Yeah.

01:10:26:15 - 01:10:46:16

Clark

Ah, trippy. Yeah. And and so every scene is like that, you know, it's like you've got Sam Jackson with Tim Ross, you know, at the end with the chamber, has got his gun in his face and he's like, taken Sam's wallet and Sam's like, I need my wallet back. And he's like, Well, which one is it? And he's like, It's the one that says bad.

01:10:46:16 - 01:11:06:17

Clark

You know, I won't say it here because we'll get an explicit. But he's, you know, and that's friggin hysterical, dude like who has a wallet that says bad MF or on it, you know Yeah. Like it's hysterical, you know every single scene of violence is like that. Like you talk about Marvin's head getting blown off. It's freaking funny.

01:11:07:06 - 01:11:12:17

Clark

Yeah. To me, it's hysterical. When I watch this movie. I laughed my butt off when I said.

01:11:12:18 - 01:11:14:20

Cullen

I think that that's I think that that's kind of what I.

01:11:14:20 - 01:11:45:09

Clark

Laughed my butt off. And so and I guess maybe this is another way that I feel a kinship to Quentin Tarantino, because, you know, I have never equated cinema violence to real world violence ever. I don't like I do not equate those two things. As a matter of fact, I think that art is a healthy outlet for things like violence, for us to explore them and actually could potentially even lower the amount of real world violence that could exist.

01:11:45:09 - 01:11:48:18

Clark

If you have a healthy out like a healthy outlet for those kinds of things.

01:11:48:18 - 01:11:49:10

Cullen

Yeah, yeah.

01:11:50:11 - 01:12:10:19

Clark

But not to get too deep in that, but I just, I found it funny. Like to me the violence is a set up for humor so I never quite understood like in Kill Bill came out you know, and it was like she you know, kills whatever 50 people in that scene. To me it seems so humorous, you know.

01:12:11:02 - 01:12:25:22

Cullen

What I mean? There's that famous interview where he's on like I don't know what some some like cable news network and this this the ladies and interviewing about him and she's like it's grotesque. There's so much blood and violence. Yeah. Why do you do that? Why do you have to make it so violent? And then he's like, Because it's so much fun.

01:12:25:22 - 01:12:27:10

Cullen

Yeah.

01:12:27:10 - 01:12:47:08

Clark

Yes. And, and I agree. And I it's weird. I think it's weird. And we're not going to be able to break it down here. We'll have to wrap up soon. But I think it's there's something this is an interesting thing where it's like Rambo can blow away a hundred, like Vietnam, whatever it was, and Rambo two, I don't remember.

01:12:47:08 - 01:13:08:10

Clark

You know, it's like Vietnam. These like, just nameless, faceless third world people write in the story and nobody cares. But but somehow Quentin does it. We're like, you know, a violent criminal is, you know, is murdered in a bathroom. And it's you know, it's like pop tarts, You know, it's even that has a funny button.

01:13:08:22 - 01:13:09:05

Cullen

Yeah.

01:13:09:14 - 01:13:31:13

Clark

And people freak out over John Travolta getting shot. But it's like you can murder a hundred nameless, faceless third world country, you know? Yeah, Yeah. Like, it's just we. I don't know. We're not going to suss that out here, but there is an interesting there's something weird going on there. But But I feel like Quentin Tarantino's film uses violence in kind of the same way that Bugs Bunny uses violence.

01:13:32:00 - 01:13:34:09

Cullen

Yeah, it's like it's vaudevillian.

01:13:34:14 - 01:13:53:21

Clark

It's not. Yeah, I never get the sense that this is like, real. Even though it's intimate. Yeah. Violence is usually intimate. No, not always. But anyway, it's just interesting. I mean, Yeah, but it's something you felt as a young kid though. You said you did the violence, did it. It stood out to you, but you were seven, so I could see that for sure.

01:13:53:21 - 01:14:02:19

Cullen

I think. I think it was more so than the violence, though. I think it was just the tone. Yeah, it was much more of the tone than it was the the violence.

01:14:02:19 - 01:14:09:22

Clark

It's kind of happenstance that you just know, like it's like, Oh, well, yeah, okay. Just violence. This is the world we live in now. Clean off the brains.

01:14:10:04 - 01:14:13:23

Cullen

Yes. Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, it's just my everyday life in my. Yeah. Suburb.

01:14:14:01 - 01:14:17:23

Clark

Yeah, I mean, to me, the delivery in context was just hysterical, but, but.

01:14:17:23 - 01:14:25:03

Cullen

Yeah, I guess, I guess to just one thing I do want to touch on quickly too is the cinematography.

01:14:25:08 - 01:14:26:08

Clark

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:14:27:07 - 01:14:32:08

Cullen

On Ondrej Sekula. I don't know, I might be mispronouncing name but yeah.

01:14:32:17 - 01:14:33:20

Clark

That this was shot. Yeah.

01:14:33:20 - 01:14:38:09

Cullen

His last film that he did with Tarantino where Tarantino went on.

01:14:38:09 - 01:14:43:12

Clark

To work and he did shoot Reservoir Dogs by the way. So he did shoot these two films with Quentin. Right.

01:14:43:22 - 01:14:56:00

Cullen

And I'm someone who I really like Robert Richardson. I think Robert Richardson does like JFK. I think it looks fantastic. But I actually have got to say that this might be my favorite looking of all Tarantino's like in turn.

01:14:56:01 - 01:14:57:09

Clark

Tell me more about that. Yeah, What do.

01:14:57:09 - 01:15:20:08

Cullen

You I think that it's very it feels super low fi and I like that. Yes. You know, it almost feels like when when, when Sam Jackson and John Travolta are walking up to the house right at the beginning, like they're walking through the lake to the apartment complex, it feels kind of like Miami Vice, like it's like this weird kind of like lo fi.

01:15:20:11 - 01:15:22:14

Clark

Well, it's it's kind of flat. It's kind of.

01:15:23:16 - 01:15:32:09

Cullen

Like super saturated. It's it's in the the light is also really, really stark when they're talking in that, you know, the Tim Roth scene right at the beginning.

01:15:32:15 - 01:15:32:23

Clark

Yeah.

01:15:33:02 - 01:15:39:17

Cullen

The light on half of their faces like completely blown out. They are stark and it's like really kind of high contrast.

01:15:39:17 - 01:15:59:12

Clark

But you can see it's natural and you can see it. There's I mean, it's natural light at it, but it also it speaks to the the, the budget of the film, I think to a great extent. Yeah. You're always in interiors. There's almost never anything, any kind of scope. We're always we're in a car and it's it's fun.

01:15:59:12 - 01:16:03:21

Clark

How Quentin uses your projection process. Yes. Yeah.

01:16:03:22 - 01:16:04:06

Cullen

Very.

01:16:04:17 - 01:16:16:13

Clark

Very obvious process. Shots in the cars but but everything is very low fi low budget, which I think stands out more to me now than it ever did before.

01:16:16:20 - 01:16:29:13

Cullen

Yeah. And I just really liked I think the movie just looks really, really I like I you know I like I like when cinematographers don't have a lot to work with. I think it's kind of it makes them a little bit brilliant in a way where.

01:16:29:16 - 01:16:31:08

Clark

It works great for the film, right? I mean.

01:16:31:12 - 01:16:52:23

Cullen

Yeah, I find it when someone adds like, you know, 100 lights that they can set up anywhere. It kind bothers me a little bit, honestly, because it's like you can do anything with it. Yeah, and I do. I do not do. We want to get really, really briefly, perhaps just to finish off on the the Deakins Tarantino kind of little mini debate.

01:16:52:23 - 01:16:53:13

Cullen

Yeah, let's.

01:16:54:06 - 01:17:09:15

Clark

Talk about that. I do want to briefly touch just music and cast real fast. I mean, we're already long, but I just I feel remiss if we didn't touch on those. And then let's go to that. I mean, obviously, a lot was made about bringing John Travolta back in the cast.

01:17:09:19 - 01:17:12:07

Cullen

Yeah, he was kind of he was really in a slump there.

01:17:12:13 - 01:17:31:14

Clark

It was a brilliant casting. I mean, it was a brilliant move. I don't know if this was like, you know, a conscious choice, but, I mean, you know, apparently Quentin really stuck to his guns. He was like, look, you know, at this point, he's talking to Miramax. He's like, if you if if Travolta can't be in the lead, then you're not the person to make this film.

01:17:31:20 - 01:17:50:15

Clark

So a pretty a pretty bold move. But it was you know, it ended up being a great for the story and it ended up being really fantastic for the marketing of the film because it's I mean, imagine all the like logistic ways that this is great I mean, he gets an actor, although in a current slump brings with.

01:17:50:15 - 01:17:51:02

Cullen

Him a.

01:17:51:02 - 01:18:09:15

Clark

Huge audience, right. Brings with him a huge recognition. But you don't to pay him a lot. I mean, it was a really brilliant piece of casting and and and and it was a really fantastic fit up. Of course, Sam is in what, almost all of Quentin's movies.

01:18:09:21 - 01:18:10:04

Cullen

Yeah.

01:18:10:17 - 01:18:36:02

Clark

Sam Jackson is just amazing. He is a really stand out performance, but it's just so many of these performances are fantastic. I mean, you talked about in the beginning, you know, Amanda Plummer with Tim Roth. Yeah, I meet Ving Rhames, Eric Stoltz, you know, even these smaller roles like Rosanna Arquette, Christopher Walken, and, you know, apparently Bruce Willis was, you know, worked for scale on this to be in the scene that is your least favorite.

01:18:36:02 - 01:18:38:20

Clark

But, hey, I mean, to get Bruce Willis at this and.

01:18:38:21 - 01:18:39:05

Cullen

Fred in.

01:18:39:05 - 01:18:54:11

Clark

Your film. Yeah I you know combination of of of amazing marketing and just I mean now you'd be hard pressed to imagine any of these people in, you know, a different actor in any of these roles. It's just Yeah. He gets Harvey Keitel back of course. Harvey Keitel Yeah.

01:18:54:11 - 01:18:56:08

Cullen

That's one of my favorite. I love Harvey Keitel was.

01:18:56:13 - 01:19:11:03

Clark

And he was instrumental, of course, in getting Reservoir Dogs made, right. He he was attached and was in lockdown, helped lock down financing from the get go, you know, Uma Thurman, and then, of course, goes on to Duke, although one and two with her.

01:19:11:04 - 01:19:11:11

Cullen

Yeah.

01:19:11:21 - 01:19:17:00

Clark

It's just, you know. And Quentin clearly gets great performances.

01:19:17:03 - 01:19:28:23

Cullen

Over People seem to be yeah they all like you can really feel that and you know, both you and I have an acting experience You can you just know when someone is just like playing up and like having so much.

01:19:28:23 - 01:19:30:11

Clark

Fun. Yeah, you can sit there.

01:19:30:12 - 01:19:30:21

Cullen

And you can.

01:19:30:21 - 01:19:31:10

Clark

Joy.

01:19:31:14 - 01:19:53:13

Cullen

And there's nothing better than when you are acting and someone just like a director just allows you to just go far with something and just, just like, Hey, give me, give me like, the most ridiculous, you know, the most ridiculously high energy take you can and then you get to bring that back, but you still retain that. Just kind of like feeling of, like passion and energy for the for the moment.

01:19:53:13 - 01:19:57:01

Cullen

And you know, you can really you just that kind of oozes off the screen in this.

01:19:57:09 - 01:20:23:22

Clark

I things I've heard obviously I've never worked with Quentin would love to but you know things I've heard a couple of things I think really lends itself to great performances. One, Quentin, his encyclopedic knowledge of film is integral on the front end to casting. I think he has a good intuition about casting people, but I think also, you know, his enthusiasm and passion for cinema in general on set seems to be really contagious.

01:20:23:22 - 01:20:46:09

Clark

I mean, a lot of people talk about how Quentin sets are are really they feel like family, that it's some of the most fun sets that people have ever worked on. Whether it's younger cast, you get a lot of feedback from people who've worked with Quentin that he loves doing what he's doing so much and his given he happens to be in a position where he's got quite a bit of free rein to do exactly what.

01:20:46:13 - 01:20:47:11

Cullen

People really want to work.

01:20:47:11 - 01:21:12:20

Clark

There's not a lot of friction there, right? So the people who are on his sets want to be there. He wants them there. And it it sounds to me, from what I've heard just peripherally, that they're just fantastic, fantastic sets that's got contribute, you know, pretty substantially to these consistently amazing performances for sure. And then last thing I just want to touch base on, it's because you could do a whole podcast about each one of these things.

01:21:12:20 - 01:21:34:06

Clark

But music, you know, there isn't any original score for the film. Of course, it's been talked about a million times over the. Quentin does the same thing with music as he does with his cinema references, you know, and you listen to it, it it's really extraordinarily effective. It's like what more could be said, You know, it's like people have talked about it forever.

01:21:34:06 - 01:21:49:15

Clark

But I you know, it's I was even surprised, you know, when I popped this in and I watched again for this just in the beginning how the music just hits you over the head, how we've got that, you know, what is it, The Dick Dale surfer music stuff. Yeah. Comes on and.

01:21:49:17 - 01:21:51:02

Cullen

Then the Black Eyed Peas.

01:21:51:02 - 01:21:59:01

Clark

And then, well, it's well, that black IP is it's jungle Boogie comes on like right after that, but it hits you with this.

01:21:59:01 - 01:22:02:16

Cullen

Whiteness mean that the Black Eyed Peas sampled the Dick Dale stuff for that.

01:22:02:20 - 01:22:06:12

Clark

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Boy, I'm not a huge fan of Black Eyed Peas.

01:22:06:12 - 01:22:06:22

Cullen

Me neither.

01:22:07:02 - 01:22:27:14

Clark

But. But, I mean, it's just this one two punch of, like, auditory, just, you know, energy that just wow. And it's like, wow, you know, this is going to be epic and this is going to be loud and it's energetic and it's amazing usage of music to kind of set you up for 15 minutes of what's the next 15 minutes are just talking, you know.

01:22:27:14 - 01:22:41:05

Clark

Yeah, but but really continuing what he did with Reservoir Dogs into Pulp Fiction and he's done pretty much every film since. Yeah, but yeah, well, okay, so let's jump into this thing that you wanted to talk about.

01:22:41:05 - 01:23:11:22

Cullen

It was really, really like a last kind of point. So there was this spat recently, and I call it a spat. Was it really? Yeah, It was like they were responding kind of to each other. They so so as you know, some people listening may or may not know. Roger Deakins, cinematographer, won the Oscar twice pretty recently. He is, I would say, probably the most popular cinematographer working like everyone I talk to.

01:23:12:03 - 01:23:35:09

Cullen

Deakins is also a DP they all loved I. I'm kind of indifferent. No offense. Deakins. I think he's a great cinematographer, but not not my style. Yeah, but he was talking about how much he doesn't like shooting on film and how, you know, he gets, you know, he just doesn't like that. The work that is required to kind of like, see your image, right?

01:23:35:11 - 01:23:59:19

Cullen

Like with digital, you can you can see the dailies. DEAKINS Also, this isn't really something that but the context, but not something that came up in the debate. But. DEAKINS Also someone who famously has said he doesn't do much with the digital negative, that he he likes to do what he does on, set with lights and doesn't really touch like he like obviously he you know, there's color correction going on.

01:23:59:19 - 01:24:00:17

Clark

But Wright doesn't.

01:24:00:17 - 01:24:06:23

Cullen

Really like to do much with like the digital negative. And by way of like, you know, adding things are changing things with the actual negative.

01:24:07:13 - 01:24:07:22

Clark

Yeah.

01:24:08:22 - 01:24:28:04

Cullen

Tarantino obviously on the other hand famous for saying that like the only way to shoot a movie is on film in that like cinema is 24 frames a second celluloid running through a camera being projected on film and All right, of course, he has the New Beverly in Los Angeles. You know, I think both of us, I, I land somewhere sort of in the middle.

01:24:28:11 - 01:24:54:11

Cullen

Yeah. Whereas I think that obviously the advent of digital was incredibly liberalized, liberating for, you know, liberalizing. I like that for for cinema and for making people like I wouldn't have been able to shoot my movie on film. But what I did was that I, you know, on the opposite end of someone like Deakins and much more in the style of a cinematographer who I really like Steve Yedlin, you know, I think that it's a waste of time to not do anything with your negative.

01:24:54:11 - 01:25:10:20

Cullen

I think that to to not take advantage of every tool you have and to go into post and go, okay, I'm going to craft the look of this. I crafted the look of my feature before I even made it. I did extensive camera tests and got, you know, the color and the light and the collation and all this stuff.

01:25:10:22 - 01:25:36:05

Cullen

Exactly way I wanted it so that when we were shooting, I saw in the, you know, the image exactly what it was. And I think it's partially again, this is a very controversial opinion, but I think that's partially the reason that Deakins doesn't really stick out to me as someone that I go to for inspiration a lot. I find that his images just kind of lack texture and that he he doesn't do a lot with with them, whereas he's a really great at lighting and stuff like that.

01:25:36:15 - 01:26:06:08

Cullen

And but then Tarantino responded and basically called Deakins lazy and said, like, you know, he doesn't like to shoot on film because because it's work, like to weight and it's more work and blah, blah, blah. And so like, yeah, I think that, you know, I like the look of celluloid, I like, I like the look of film. Do I think that that's something at this point that you necessarily, you know, that an audience can pick out whether something is like really well emulated digital photography that is, you know, used to emulate film versus real film.

01:26:06:08 - 01:26:25:09

Cullen

I don't think that a, you know, casual audience is going to notice the difference. However, I will say that I do. The visual esthetics of film that are lost on digital are something that Deakins doesn't really make an effort to gain back, which I think are. I think they're just things, you know, opinion based that look good.

01:26:25:18 - 01:26:45:08

Clark

Yeah. Well I mean I, you know, I think look, I can't speak for Quentin Tarantino. We know that where he stands on film and I think that's that's fine. I mean it's it's I think for for Quentin Tarantino, it's a very personal thing. And it's like if you're a painter, you're going to have a certain paint brush type that you're going to gravitate toward.

01:26:45:08 - 01:27:06:11

Clark

You know, for him, it's a it's and I get it right. Is this like the most personal thing he does is make movies. And the tools that he uses to do that are necessarily they're going to be personal. And I love that look, if it didn't matter to him, I would be really questioning that. It doesn't matter to you like you don't care what your canvases.

01:27:06:23 - 01:27:27:19

Clark

So I, I think that's wonderful. And then it's also totally fine if somebody else wants to, you know, thinks digital is the best thing since sliced bread, more power to you. Go for it. There's room for both. I you know, I personally like the look of film better, but but I realize that that's likely because that's what I grew up seeing.

01:27:27:22 - 01:27:53:21

Clark

Okay. It's this isn't a logical thing. This is a like art is often not logical. This is a personal, subjective thing. I like to look at film better and and but but for me personally, it's not practical to shoot on film. I'm going to shoot digitally, of course, because it's more important for me to make a film on anything than it is for me to like, only make a make a picture on film like that.

01:27:53:21 - 01:27:55:20

Clark

And of course, I but I just, you know, the.

01:27:55:20 - 01:28:18:07

Cullen

Important part is that it's subjective of when I say that, I find that Deakins image lacks texture. That's something that a lot of people like. Yeah. So, you know, a lot of people like that ultra crisp, you know, smooth digital look. And that's that's totally fine. I'm not saying that Deakins is a I would never, ever say that he is a bad cinematographer because I don't I don't believe that.

01:28:19:09 - 01:28:44:00

Cullen

But to me, I like an image with texture. I like an image that, you know, And so if I'm shooting digitally, I will add that texture. I add the look, I add a little bit of gait because I find that it just I like the organic look where it feels like you can just feel. It's hard to describe, but there's just like a subconscious feeling where you can just there's an element to which it's so textured and visceral and organic and lighter.

01:28:44:00 - 01:29:06:23

Cullen

I think that, you know, if I'm going to shoot something and not, I've also shot things that I don't use film emulation on. I've done short films that I that I've been like, I don't I don't want that. And I've do things that I've not I've just doesn't fit. Depends on obviously the subject matter. And so I think that that's kind of why I say I like I land somewhere in the middle.

01:29:07:05 - 01:29:12:17

Clark

Yeah, I if I had my druthers. Yeah, yeah. If I had my druthers, I would shoot with them for sure.

01:29:12:17 - 01:29:13:03

Cullen

Yes.

01:29:13:03 - 01:29:32:13

Clark

But the bigger reason than how it looks is I think what the workflow is, and I think Quentin is speaking to some of this, which is that, you know, I look again, I'm guessing we're guessing here, but my guess is that Quentin Tarantino likes the workflow of film because it's a it's a slower moving set.

01:29:33:09 - 01:29:34:15

Cullen

Instills a discipline.

01:29:34:19 - 01:29:55:03

Clark

It's well it does that to it. But you're you're spending half a day, maybe hours to light a scene. So you're you know, there's a lot of attention paid have to be more specific with your lighting with film and then of course when you're shooting film now I don't know if you know, look, Quentin could shoot all the film in the world that he wanted to.

01:29:55:03 - 01:30:12:05

Clark

So but but I think every I think it still does affect people. They know that money is running through the camera. They know that, you know, it's and this means something. So the amount of focus that.

01:30:12:05 - 01:30:18:00

Cullen

If you've ever been on a set or shot with film or anything like that or heard a film camera roll, it's a distinct noise to digital.

01:30:18:01 - 01:30:18:15

Clark

It's different.

01:30:18:18 - 01:30:40:04

Cullen

Digital. You could be rolling, you wouldn't know. But from when you're shooting something on film, you can hear it. You can, you know, film cameras are designed to be as quiet as possible, but you can still there is this, this hum and you can you can feel the the the film moving through the gate and, you know, okay, we're rolling.

01:30:40:14 - 01:30:42:15

Cullen

You know, we are we are literally rolling.

01:30:42:15 - 01:30:43:00

Clark

Yeah.

01:30:43:06 - 01:30:44:07

Cullen

From where we come from.

01:30:44:07 - 01:31:04:23

Clark

So there's, there's a history there that you're kind of calling back too. It makes perfect sense that, that Tarantino, who is inspired by film so much, would only want to shoot film. It makes perfect sense if you grew up listening to records, to vinyl records, you may have an affinity for vinyl records over things that technically sound better, right?

01:31:05:11 - 01:31:09:14

Clark

But but it's not about that. It's about a subjective tactile. So I get it, you know.

01:31:11:01 - 01:31:23:22

Cullen

And there are there are also movies that I've seen that I that are crisp and digital that I really like the looks of as well. Yeah. Yeah. But I thought Parasite looked really good and that's there's, that's, that's a very digital looking movie. Yeah.

01:31:24:11 - 01:31:48:14

Clark

So, so I think it's, you know, so I'm happy that it all exists. I'm happy there are people out there like Quentin Tarantino who kind of keep film alive, and I'm really happy for that. But but yeah, I'm not dogmatic about anything. No, no, but. But yeah, well. Oh, my gosh. You know what this may be? I'm not quite sure, but this may be the longest episode we have.

01:31:48:18 - 01:31:50:04

Cullen

I think it is our longest day. I don't add.

01:31:50:04 - 01:32:03:14

Clark

An hour and a half. Wow. And I think we also broke the record for most nieces. Yeah, I'm sorry about that. I was like, I'm debating. Should I leave him in? Well, we'll find out, but all right. Should be.

01:32:03:14 - 01:32:06:02

Cullen

Easy to find in the it should be easy.

01:32:06:02 - 01:32:26:10

Clark

To find up in the big spikes. Well, anyway, we could go on and on, but. But we should draw this to a close. Now. There's so many things we could talk about, but I've really enjoyed it. Colin And it's interesting to hear, you know, some of your views being 20 years removed from me and kind of what your impression of this film is and your experience with it.

01:32:26:10 - 01:32:46:17

Clark

That's really fun for me as sometimes it's kind of like getting to see it through somebody else's eyes, which is quite fun. But yeah, I I've had a blast. I enjoyed it. I look forward to what your pick is going to be for next time around. So exciting. All right. Well, everybody, we hope you enjoyed it, too. And hopefully you've made it this far.

01:32:46:20 - 01:32:55:22

Clark

Boy, if you have, you're a trooper. But hey, until next time, everybody, have a wonderful couple of weeks and we'll see you later. Bye bye. Bye bye.

Episode - 055 - The Deer Hunter

Cullen

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Soldiers, sort of a podcast. Episode 55. I'm your usual host Cullen, along with my unusual host, Clark Coffey. How are you doing?

00:00:24:08 - 00:00:32:11

Clark

I'm doing awesome. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Did I hear you correctly? Did you say that you're the usual host and I'm an unusual host? Or did you say you were both unusual? Wait, I'm.

00:00:32:12 - 00:00:33:16

Cullen

Usual. You're here.

00:00:34:00 - 00:00:46:17

Clark

I gotcha. Okay. All right, fair enough. You know, look, I've. It wouldn't be the first time I've been called unusual. I. Can I take it as a compliment from now on? So. So you bring it. Bring it. I'll take it.

00:00:48:02 - 00:00:51:17

Cullen

Yeah. So? So as I said, we're doing, we're doing the OR. I don't think I mentioned the deer.

00:00:51:19 - 00:00:52:18

Clark

You didn't think I did that.

00:00:52:18 - 00:00:59:06

Cullen

Actually in five. But we are doing the deer Hunter Spoiler alert. The boiler alert from 1978.

00:00:59:08 - 00:01:08:16

Clark

Yeah. If you haven't seen this film yet from 1978, then stop this podcast immediately and go watch it. There's going to be spoilers ahead for a.

00:01:08:16 - 00:01:10:06

Cullen

40 plus year old movie. 40?

00:01:11:03 - 00:01:23:00

Clark

Yeah. Oh my gosh. I feel so. I feel. I feel so old. Man, This this film came out when I was two. Obviously, I did not see this movie in the theater when it came out because we're at the.

00:01:23:00 - 00:01:24:23

Cullen

Big Camino fan. When you were two years old.

00:01:25:07 - 00:01:30:20

Clark

My aforementioned age of two. But yeah, it makes me feel old. You're like, Have you.

00:01:30:20 - 00:01:32:13

Cullen

Ever gotten the chance to see it in theaters or No.

00:01:32:19 - 00:01:51:14

Clark

No, I haven't. I haven't seen it. It would be fine. I mean, this is a film that I might expect that somebody like Quentin might show at his New Beverly, and he may have. And I just don't know about it. But yeah, I'd love to see that, especially if it were actually projected on 35 millimeter film. I'd love to see it.

00:01:51:14 - 00:01:54:05

Clark

Yeah. I mean, I son cinematography.

00:01:54:05 - 00:01:54:10

Cullen

Yeah.

00:01:54:16 - 00:02:06:20

Clark

Yeah. I would take almost any excuse to see I think jeez I, I just love seeing films in a theater period. So you know, it has to be a pretty crappy film for me to not want to see it.

00:02:07:11 - 00:02:13:14

Cullen

And I guess I'm curious to know what, what prompted you to choose this? Well, what was your. Yeah. Choice. Really?

00:02:13:20 - 00:02:36:20

Clark

Yeah. Yeah. So. So let me explain a little bit about why I chose it, but I want to hear your experience. Oh, sure. In this film first, though. But that's because. Because I don't want to tape like what you kind of share with me. Because this is the first time you've ever seen this film. So as as we've kind of done in the past, I'm always curious to it to kind of see the film again through a younger set of eyes.

00:02:36:20 - 00:03:04:20

Clark

A different generation is always interesting to me, but before we do that, so the reason that I picked it so, you know, when I was when I was kind of a young, flourishing, you know, cinephile, you know, I was like in my teens, this was one of the films that was kind of like canon, right? It was like if you were if you were kind of reading about films, if you were studying films, you were inevitably going to see this film mentioned.

00:03:06:14 - 00:03:27:08

Clark

It's, you know, and so I had watched this as kind of I'm sure that I read it. It on VHS was probably the first time that I watched it. So, you know, here I am watching it in your pan and scan on a VHS tape. So sadly, the presentation was probably not all that great and left and left a lot to be lacking.

00:03:27:08 - 00:03:51:20

Clark

But but the thing that really stood out to me, I can't remember a ton of that original viewing, which was probably when I was somewhere between 18 and 21 years of age. I don't remember exactly maybe a little younger, but around there. And the thing that really stuck out to me was, was the emotional intensity of parts of that film.

00:03:51:20 - 00:04:16:06

Clark

And we're going to talk about those. But the Russian roulette scenes, you know, the P.O.W. stuff. So I had this extremely strong emotional imprint that I still you know, if somebody were to say Deer Hunter, I would have today, I'd be like, whoa, emotionally intense, you know? I mean, I like I could almost, like, feel that from the experience that I had all those years ago when I first watched the film as a young kid.

00:04:17:03 - 00:04:38:11

Clark

So I had this kind of emotional imprint, but I couldn't remember too much else about the film. Again, 20 plus years since I've seen it. So so I, you know, I, I, it was just it kind of I just had this flash, you know, when it was time for me to pick, I was like, you know, I have this really strong emotional imprint still from this film, from that old viewing, but I can't really remember much about the film.

00:04:38:11 - 00:04:57:01

Clark

I don't remember what actually happens. I only remembered like half the cast, you know, I was like, Well, I remember walk in and and De Niro's in it, but I can't remember anything. I history, maybe I remembered, was in it. So I thought it'll be interesting to re-experience this film all these years later and then also get to see what your thoughts are on it.

00:04:57:01 - 00:05:05:21

Clark

So that was kind of my overall reasoning was like had this strong emotional imprint, couldn't remember anything else, was curious to see how it would play today.

00:05:07:02 - 00:05:16:17

Cullen

Yeah, I mean, so for me it was it was interesting because as you said, it's kind of like in the canon of like movies, you know, like American movies. It's it's very.

00:05:16:22 - 00:05:17:15

Clark

It's a new it's.

00:05:17:15 - 00:05:26:07

Cullen

A very famous movie. And it's yeah, you know, everyone knows the Russian roulette scene or things like that. And it's referenced in a lot of other movies and video games. And, you know.

00:05:26:18 - 00:05:28:16

Clark

That had a major impact. Yeah. So.

00:05:29:00 - 00:05:32:10

Cullen

So it's not like I was going into this for the first time, you know, with.

00:05:32:10 - 00:05:33:14

Clark

No knowing what it.

00:05:33:14 - 00:05:55:15

Cullen

Was. Right. I knew enough about it that I, you know, kind of knew vaguely what to expect, but it did, you know, throw some curveballs. So I think one thing that really surprised me was a how little of it is actually in Vietnam. I mean, I say little, but it's still like a good hour of the movie. But but in a three hour movie, you kind of expect that.

00:05:55:19 - 00:06:02:21

Cullen

Yeah. You know, the center, you know, the big kind of chunk of the majority of the movie to be in Vietnam. And did.

00:06:02:21 - 00:06:06:17

Clark

You kind of expect it to be more traditionally a war movie like it's going to.

00:06:06:18 - 00:06:25:04

Cullen

Be? Yeah, I expected something more along the lines of, you know, a platoon or a full metal jacket or something like that or, you know, not necessarily Apocalypse Now, because that one, of course, is while it's a war movie, it's it's much more than, you know, just a just a war movie. But I expected something a little bit, I guess, more traditional.

00:06:25:12 - 00:06:47:00

Cullen

Yeah. Whereas what I, I think it kind of, you know, that again, just kind of threw me a curveball when I was watching it. Now it's like even in we'll get into this later when we talk a little about the story structure of it. But but, you know, when it cuts to the Vietnam moment, I was like checking my mate thing to make sure I haven't actually skipped ahead because it just kind of throws you into it like, you know, you're they've been there for months and yet now.

00:06:47:00 - 00:06:50:00

Clark

How did you watch it? Did you watch it streaming? Did you have physical.

00:06:50:00 - 00:06:52:22

Cullen

Yeah, it was on it's on prime video. I think so.

00:06:53:03 - 00:06:53:11

Clark

Okay.

00:06:53:11 - 00:06:55:01

Cullen

I see the prime video.

00:06:55:07 - 00:07:00:07

Clark

Okay. So you watch and I'm assuming an HD proper. Yeah. Yeah. Aspect ratio. Okay.

00:07:00:07 - 00:07:00:12

Cullen

Yeah.

00:07:01:08 - 00:07:05:14

Clark

So you had it dropped? Yeah. At least you had a decent viewing experience.

00:07:05:14 - 00:07:12:21

Cullen

Well, yeah. And it was. I mean, it was the quality was never like it was, it was actually quite decent in terms because it scanned so well.

00:07:13:09 - 00:07:31:20

Clark

Just to digress a tiny bit, I mean you laugh about it being cropped, but you know, I a lot of times I'll see on streaming that aspect ratios wider than six by nine are actually still grouped into 16 by nine on streaming. I know here in the States, HBO, Max does that a lot with their films. It's extremely frustrating.

00:07:32:08 - 00:07:33:10

Clark

So I was just curious, you know.

00:07:33:10 - 00:07:38:13

Cullen

Yeah, a lot of prime video Too often times I'll see like I remember I was watching Poltergeist a few months ago when you.

00:07:38:13 - 00:07:39:00

Clark

Can always.

00:07:39:00 - 00:07:42:20

Cullen

Tell. The weirdest thing about it was that the credits were in the proper 235.

00:07:43:01 - 00:07:43:10

Clark

And then.

00:07:43:15 - 00:07:59:06

Cullen

You have this whole you can see, you know, the black bars, top and bottom, all that. It's 10 to 35 and then suddenly it cuts into the first scene. And it's and I was like, so you have the, the, you know, 55 skin. But anyway, anyway, um, but yeah, so, so I watched it on prime video and.

00:07:59:15 - 00:08:01:04

Clark

You're like, did it skip? What happened?

00:08:01:15 - 00:08:19:12

Cullen

It was just, it was yeah. I think and I think the, the other thing that's sort of strange is that like while the movie is about this cast of characters, these friends, you don't really get to know all that much about them. You kind of know the basics. You know, that they're workers or they're Russian Orthodox, that the one guy's getting married but you don't like.

00:08:19:12 - 00:08:38:17

Cullen

There's not many moments of of kind of like, you know, fundamentally learning about these characters, which I thought was interesting. I thought that was very different than I expected. And again, ultimately, just the fact that it was it was, you know, not it's not all that much of a Vietnam movie. It's like kind of like Vietnam adjacent in a way.

00:08:38:17 - 00:09:03:18

Cullen

Like, yeah, like, you know, they have this experience of Vietnam, but the larger sections of the film, the you know, two thirds of the film are back in Pennsylvania and Appalachia. And this like kind of I don't know if it's a mining town or if it's just an industry town or steelworks. Yeah, But yeah, So I think that that was that was definitely like the first hour of the film being taking place at a wedding was definitely not, not something I expected.

00:09:03:18 - 00:09:24:20

Cullen

I think that was Yeah, I definitely also, you know, I, I wouldn't say that it's a movie that I was like hyped to see if that makes sense. Like it was like there was a lot of like, it's a classic movie. It's seen as a classic movie, but it's not like, you know, it's not like going into The Godfather for the first time and, you know, I didn't know much about it.

00:09:24:20 - 00:09:40:18

Cullen

I hadn't really spoken to a lot of people about it. So it definitely kind of went in knowing what the movie was about, vaguely. But also not really, you know, there was no preconceived opinion on it. I had no idea whether I would like it or I would rather I just like it. And I think I landed, you know, I liked it.

00:09:40:23 - 00:09:58:03

Cullen

I think I landed some work, sort of like maybe three quarters of the middle way, you know, where it was like lots of things that I sort of questioned about it. But also, you know, I made it through a three hour movie and didn't ever check my watch or my phone or whatever. So, you know, sometimes it was good.

00:09:58:16 - 00:10:11:16

Cullen

And I and of course, you know, you've got these really, really incredible performances as well. Yeah. You know, John Gonzalez, one of my favorite actors. You've got De Niro, you've got Meryl Streep, Christopher Walken. So you have a really, really.

00:10:12:05 - 00:10:13:06

Clark

John Savage, who.

00:10:13:06 - 00:10:32:03

Cullen

Did Savage as well. Yeah. You got this really, really incredible cast of of characters and of actors that were kind of like, you know, with exception to maybe Meryl Streep all kind of in there. They're like golden age and especially with Jack is Ali, who passed away not long after shooting this.

00:10:32:16 - 00:10:32:18

Clark

In.

00:10:33:10 - 00:10:33:15

Cullen

His.

00:10:33:15 - 00:10:34:09

Clark

Last film.

00:10:34:13 - 00:10:52:09

Cullen

Yeah. You really you really get this this kind of incredible sense And it's it's interesting seeing John because Ali in this with Robert De Niro, of course, because they were both in The Godfather, but with Godfather two. But yes, you know, didn't share any screen time, sort of like our last film Heat, where you had Pacino and De Niro in the same movie, but they never actually shared anything.

00:10:52:09 - 00:10:54:15

Clark

That's true. Yeah. Connection there. Yeah.

00:10:54:23 - 00:11:07:05

Cullen

So, yeah, I think I think that, you know as we get into the details, I think that will have some interesting conversations because I definitely didn't know what to like. I subverted my expectations in a lot more ways than I expected.

00:11:07:09 - 00:11:28:04

Clark

Okay, that's interesting. And just in the most simplest of terms, because you've not you've kind of shared how you were a little bit surprised at the structure. So I just to kind of I mean, did you enjoy watching the film just from a purely audience perspective? Like what was your what was your experience in that sense? Just as a just as an audience, you know, you're like not analyzing it.

00:11:28:04 - 00:11:31:06

Clark

You're not looking to deconstruct it. What was that like for you?

00:11:31:22 - 00:11:57:07

Cullen

Yeah, I mean, it's a really I mean, it's almost Sigmund, so it looks really good. Um, you know, the the performances are great, as we've spoken about before, I'm not really one to, like, care about the nitty gritty plot details, Right. Yeah. And so so I think, you know, I definitely would say that I enjoy it like I would it would be a movie that I would come out of the theater had I seen it, you know, when it came out and and sort of say, you know, I would give my recommendation to see it.

00:11:57:07 - 00:12:06:18

Cullen

I wouldn't give a glowing like raving. You know, you have to say, okay, really. But but I think that it was definitely a film that that, you know, it's a good movie, but I think that's the easiest way.

00:12:06:18 - 00:12:33:02

Clark

But do you feel like, you know, because it's you know, you say it's you know, it's Vietnam adjacent and I and I would agree, but it's an important part of the film. Do you feel like it being kind of U.S. centric and kind of, you know, Vietnam centric? Do you feel like that has any impact at all? Do you feel like it translates pretty directly, or do you feel like some of that might be, you know, remove you a little bit from it?

00:12:33:02 - 00:12:33:20

Clark

I mean, I.

00:12:33:20 - 00:12:51:10

Cullen

Mean, I don't I so I think that the interesting thing about it is that it doesn't do it uses the Vietnam to analyze the the the you know impact on these people in their lives and their relationships, things like that. But it doesn't really do much to actually analyze the war itself, which so it.

00:12:51:10 - 00:12:51:22

Clark

Could just be.

00:12:51:22 - 00:13:09:09

Cullen

Any of any other. Yeah, it could really ultimately and I also found myself watching it that as soon as it went to Vietnam, I was like, you know what? I was really interested in this, this kind of little mining town, like I was really kind of invested in that aspect. And I almost found myself, like, wanting to go back to that.

00:13:09:09 - 00:13:27:11

Cullen

Like I oh, I weirdly enough thought that the Vietnam stuff was the stuff that I was the least interested in in the whole movie. I thought that the the esthetic and the location and the just the dynamic of that town was so interesting and kind of rich and detailed like, you know, you had all these, like, just funny little things like the trucks and the they're always racing.

00:13:27:11 - 00:13:46:07

Cullen

There's these kind of like faceless trucks that are flying through the town at all times. It's one of the first things you see in the movie is this truck barreling in. You almost think it's brakes are broken or something because it's going too fast. Yeah, but and then you see that they interact with these trucks and that they all work at a steel mill and that they go out hunting into the mountains, which I don't drink.

00:13:46:07 - 00:14:10:17

Cullen

That's what the Appalachian Mountains look like. But, uh, you know, it's, I thought and just their relationship with their, the like the mothers and the other people in the town, this bar that they're at. Yeah. Like, I almost felt like it would have been perhaps a more interesting movie to focus on on that. And maybe you have of course, that would fundamentally alter what the movie is.

00:14:11:06 - 00:14:21:06

Cullen

But I think that that was like something that I really was fascinated with. And yeah, I think that that was really unique and it almost felt sort of disjointed from the Vietnam part.

00:14:21:18 - 00:14:57:12

Clark

Well, there's yeah, I mean, there's certainly not many films, you know, especially American Hollywood studio films that would have ever spent an hour plus on a wedding. Mm hmm. You know, and and you notice there are these long sections without any dialog whatsoever, or it's kind of just, you know, aside from maybe, you know, some characters kind of just talking to each other very briefly, you know, I mean, but there's not really dialog and there's certainly not dialog that that propels any kind of plot at all, you know, So it's almost like in a it's like almost feels like a documentary, right?

00:14:57:12 - 00:15:32:00

Clark

It's like you're watching these people at work and you're watching the mechanization of the steel mill. You know, now you're now you're like with them, you know, at the bar and you're seeing their camaraderie and and how their kind of relationships are through the way that they act and speak to each other at a bar. And you're kind of get a sense of the town and then you're at the wedding and you get a sense of who these people are and what their ancestry is and their family history is, and all of these kind of things through their music, through their dance, through the way that they they celebrate together.

00:15:32:09 - 00:15:38:11

Clark

I think it's very interesting. I mean, it's it's just rare to find a film that would take an hour to do that.

00:15:38:11 - 00:16:01:06

Cullen

Yeah. And and I, as I said, like, that was kind of my favorite part about it. Like I yeah, I was kind of sitting there really enjoying their dynamic when they're, when they stop the car and they're on the hunting trip and they're all having that conversation. Yeah. You know, Don Jong, as Alice starts calling Robert De Niro gay and all this, like, like it was just a really, I think, fascinating relationship between these these people.

00:16:01:06 - 00:16:21:19

Cullen

And also, I think a really interesting kind of analysis on like, like class and like middle America at the time. Yeah. And you know, what these these miners do and that their lives really seem to be going nowhere. And I, I think I was more so surprised that it didn't really come back to that. Like it didn't really focus on that.

00:16:21:19 - 00:16:33:23

Cullen

As soon as it went to Vietnam, it was it kind of shifted away from that a little bit. And of course, it's it's of course, like informed by those those opening moments in those little I wouldn't say moments that those opening their opening act. Really.

00:16:33:23 - 00:16:36:09

Clark

Yeah. It's a full act. Yeah.

00:16:36:09 - 00:17:06:05

Cullen

And it's like in that kind of ghost that that carries through but, but carries through to a much less extent I think than I expected. You know, even when they return back home, the the relationships between these characters more or less kind of resume like you know, Robert De Niro's character in the opening is is this kind of mysterious, not necessarily short tempered, but definitely doesn't take kind of, you know, crap from anybody, kind of like a little.

00:17:06:05 - 00:17:08:08

Clark

Impulsive, little inquisitive, sort.

00:17:08:08 - 00:17:28:03

Cullen

Of like back and and is ultimately sort of seems very similar to that. And then the only real difference other than like some subtleties are the, you know, the fact that he doesn't kill the deer. Of course he lets the deer go. But like his relationship with Meryl Streep, for example, who of course, is going to get married to John Savage's character when he.

00:17:28:03 - 00:17:38:00

Cullen

No, no, sorry, Christopher Walken's character. Yes. When he was supposed to return. But, you know, Streep and De Niro sort of in the opening have this kind of like.

00:17:38:02 - 00:17:38:16

Clark

Well, they play.

00:17:38:18 - 00:17:39:20

Cullen

This back and forth. Right?

00:17:40:07 - 00:18:04:01

Clark

There's kind of like a little bit of a love triangle, if you will, that's set up in that first act. Of course, Walken remains in Vietnam. We can kind of get to some of that. It's, you know, as an offshoot of roulette. But he stays in Vietnam, doesn't come back. And so then you have this kind of weird, hesitant, halfway kind of relationship with Streep's character in De Niro's character.

00:18:04:03 - 00:18:19:21

Clark

It's not ever really fulfilled. But, you know, there's definitely it's I think it's used to illustrate a distance that kind of exists in De Niro's character, just emotionally, where he's emotionally distant to the entire town when he comes back, right?

00:18:19:21 - 00:18:22:13

Cullen

Yeah. Yeah. This is Welcome back party thing.

00:18:22:16 - 00:18:42:21

Clark

Serves to kind of show his maybe his alienation from, you know, from this experience that he's had that's kind of maybe pushed him even a little further away from what he used to know. And for all those people who don't have these experiences that he went to now, which of course was, you know, definitely something that was in the the cultural conscience of this country at that time.

00:18:42:21 - 00:18:49:09

Clark

Very much so. Was that experience that that veterans were having when they would return to the country?

00:18:49:12 - 00:18:50:16

Cullen

Yeah, there's alienation.

00:18:50:16 - 00:19:18:20

Clark

Alienation and even hostility they might sometimes feel from some parts of our of of American culture here and there. But even even regardless of that, just how that experience of combat and what they experienced, it just can have the potential to really isolate you or have an isolating feeling, you know, from from other people. Yeah. I mean, so so I have to agree with you.

00:19:18:20 - 00:19:42:14

Clark

You know, when I when I watched the film, I was surprised. I didn't remember or that that whole first hour that that whole first act was, in effect, a wedding. I mean, that's you know, there's a little bit but I mean, it's almost and I was really surprised by that. And and it really got me thinking about, you know, contrasting a film like this from the seventies and a film of today.

00:19:43:01 - 00:20:06:15

Clark

And you'd also talked about, you know, the editing where you were like, wow, you know, from that first act, there was just this like, jump cut into, I'm in Vietnam, and I'm like, What is going on? You know? And De Niro's character is laying on the ground and it's hard to kind of pick up what's actually happening. You almost thought the film had kind of, you know, you'd missed something like maybe it you know, like it missed a section or something in the stream.

00:20:07:18 - 00:20:11:16

Clark

Well, the film won Academy Award for Best editing.

00:20:11:20 - 00:20:12:04

Cullen

Yeah.

00:20:13:06 - 00:20:34:15

Clark

I'm kind of curious. It won best picture, you know, So obviously at the time, this pacing and this editing, this story technique was was lauded at the time, right? It was people were obviously really spoke to that audience of that era. I'm curious, like, what do you what do you think? I mean, it's kind of interesting to contrast this film, right?

00:20:34:15 - 00:21:15:12

Clark

It's a that it's a three hour film. B, that it takes so much time to do to kind of just, I want to say, almost luxuriate in these moments of character or these moments of like showing the the relationships of the town and the texture of the people in the town and through their jobs, through the bar, through the wedding, even we're even when we are in Vietnam, we don't see we don't spend a lot of time in a lot of different places, almost the entirety of that second act where you're in the bar I mean, in the bar in the in Vietnam is in that little P.O.W., that small P.O.W. camp.

00:21:15:12 - 00:21:25:18

Clark

It's very claustrophobic. It's very small. The locations are very small. We don't move much. And it's almost the entirety of that section is the Russian roulette game that's being played.

00:21:25:23 - 00:21:36:02

Cullen

And so that that it's weird because it's like you're sort of sitting there, so you watch it and you've got this full hour of these guys. You know, the wedding is kind of doubling as a celebration for they're going away.

00:21:36:02 - 00:21:37:01

Clark

To be out.

00:21:37:07 - 00:21:37:16

Cullen

Here.

00:21:37:17 - 00:21:38:01

Clark

Yeah.

00:21:38:17 - 00:21:46:08

Cullen

And then suddenly you're you're in this village in Vietnam, as you said, tiny arrows on the ground. And then Walken lands.

00:21:46:08 - 00:21:47:08

Clark

Yep. And they meet up.

00:21:47:08 - 00:22:00:10

Cullen

And they meet up and it's like, okay. So clearly months have been by because they don't even really recognize each other that well, but they kind of hug and embrace. Yeah. Like, oh yeah, yeah. There's this, there's this weird thing where it's like, it's like De Niro's one on one with one of these.

00:22:00:10 - 00:22:01:20

Clark

You don't really know what's going on.

00:22:01:20 - 00:22:10:15

Cullen

It's and Yeah, yeah. And then, and then suddenly there's mortars going off and then all of these soldiers run of the woods and it's like Vietnamese soldiers, Viet Cong soldiers.

00:22:10:15 - 00:22:12:14

Clark

Which you don't even know for sure. It's like, yeah.

00:22:12:21 - 00:22:14:08

Cullen

You don't. It doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't say.

00:22:14:13 - 00:22:15:11

Clark

They distance.

00:22:15:23 - 00:22:18:03

Cullen

And they just going to stand and stare at them and then.

00:22:18:03 - 00:22:18:12

Clark

And then.

00:22:18:16 - 00:22:22:22

Cullen

Cut again. And then suddenly we're in this POW camp, this P.O.W. camp and. Yeah, and.

00:22:23:05 - 00:22:23:16

Clark

Their camp.

00:22:23:16 - 00:22:46:06

Cullen

Even that is like, you know, I was sitting there thinking, okay, the way that I expected this film to go was that you have this opening, this, this send off of the characters they go through all this stuff in Vietnam, of course, is a more traditional way to, you know, sure make a film. But but that you see the bulk of the film and then and then the finale of the film is this you know, this Russian roulette scene.

00:22:46:06 - 00:22:59:17

Cullen

But really the Russian roulette scene also begins as soon as they're in the P.O.W. camp. Of course, they're watching two other people do it. But then so then I thought, okay, so they're watching these other two other two people do it and then they're not going to do it until the end. And that's going to be the big finale.

00:22:59:17 - 00:23:19:06

Cullen

But no. And then next thing you know, they're pulled up and they're like, I got to get like, it really, really is structured in a strange way because it's like you're just kind of sitting there going like, Well, I don't know. I was sitting there thinking like, I'm sitting here more trying to catch up. And that's kind of the difficulty I'm having with, with being really, totally invested in it.

00:23:19:16 - 00:23:31:01

Cullen

Yeah, it's like I'm sitting there kind of going like, I don't even know how they got here. I don't know. I don't know what they like. How do they, you know, how do they change? Yeah, because they really you can tell what they've they've definitely changed. Like they're like hardened.

00:23:31:02 - 00:23:31:12

Clark

Yeah.

00:23:31:12 - 00:23:52:15

Cullen

You know, combat, you know, soldiers now and they, you know, they've clearly again been in Vietnam for a while. And so I'm not saying that, you know, traditional storytelling is better or superior anyway, but I think the film could really have used like maybe one scene in between where you actually kind of get a sense of like how these characters changed from.

00:23:52:15 - 00:24:08:00

Clark

It's very interesting, isn't it? I mean, do you think that this is I mean, maybe some of this is an era thing, you know, because it's look, because the film definitely doesn't have a problem taking time to show things, Right. I mean, again, we've gone on and on about how much time it took for, you know, to show the wedding.

00:24:08:05 - 00:24:30:17

Clark

But look how much time it takes to show that Russian roulette game. I mean, it's it's this it's it's the suspense in that is just amazing. I mean, it's really paced. It's really paced out. It's very, very methodical. It really builds and builds and builds and builds. And so the film clearly has no problem taking time, you know, and it's three plus hours long.

00:24:30:17 - 00:24:54:02

Clark

So it's clearly not worried about being long. So it's interesting that these these quote unquote, plot points are just cut out and then you're left as an audience to just fill in the blanks to guess what happened. And I think that would lose probably a large percentage of a modern audience because it's just we don't see that in today's films.

00:24:54:06 - 00:25:18:16

Clark

And I do notice, I think if you watch more films of this era or foreign films as well, I think there's it's more frequently that that a filmmaker will do this and trust that you as an audience, hey, you know, you don't need to see the guy go from the couch to the toilet like, like, you know, you know, like, you know how he got where they got, you know, I don't know.

00:25:18:16 - 00:25:24:20

Clark

I use toilet for that. That's funny. I'm like, I'm just imagining, like, here's a movie about a guy needs to go to the bathroom. What am I in?

00:25:24:20 - 00:25:43:13

Cullen

And we watch him walk all the way. Yeah. So I it's a good question about, like, is it the era? Because, you know, I yeah, I love films from this era like, right. I like a lot of foreign films. And so I think it's, I think for me it's not necessarily my issue isn't necessarily with the even if I don't even if I can call it an issue my.

00:25:43:14 - 00:25:45:05

Clark

Yeah it's just, you know, Right.

00:25:45:12 - 00:26:21:08

Cullen

I don't know. But the thing I noticed is it's just a notice. It's not that it's structured in this way. It's not that it's, you know, it's not that we don't see. But I think weirdly enough for a three hour movie, it it, it seems to I feel like the suspense could be even better fulfilled if if we if we saw more of, you know, what it's like to me, sort of like, you know, if Hitchcock did Psycho and Marion got to the Bates Motel and took a shower immediately, right?

00:26:21:15 - 00:26:25:23

Cullen

Yeah, That's like and it's like, you know, Well, we were you know, it's not that.

00:26:25:23 - 00:26:26:09

Clark

I like.

00:26:26:09 - 00:26:43:10

Cullen

That analogy. It's not necessarily about the plot or the character development or like the story. It's more so that I feel like the scene could be even more effective because I think what what I think threw me off about it is that, again, war changes people. It's a very common theme in a lot of war movies that that war is fundamentally changing people.

00:26:43:15 - 00:26:44:01

Clark

Yeah.

00:26:44:21 - 00:27:03:01

Cullen

So we jump into the scene in Vietnam, in the village, and we know that these characters have changed and, you know, yeah, it's not really that important to see the specific, you know, we don't need to see some guy blowing up in front of the other guy and he's like, Oh, I'm crazy now. Yes, yes, I'm crazy. And that's, you know, we don't necessarily need to see that.

00:27:03:09 - 00:27:21:03

Cullen

I think giving us more time with the characters as they are now would have helped that suspense because you're kind of sitting there going like, hang on, I don't really know what Robert De Niro's been through versus what Walken's been through. Right. Like, so I feel like and we also don't really know, you know, is this the first time that they've seen each other.

00:27:21:05 - 00:27:46:03

Cullen

Yeah. In, in months or have they just kind of it's been like a week. And so I'm not saying that it's like the details of the plot that are necessarily the important part. I think that just that the some of the character development. However I also like on the kind of flip side of that, I sort of think that the the scene of the Russian roulette in the P.O.W. camp is almost less important than when they get back to Saigon and they care.

00:27:46:03 - 00:28:05:21

Cullen

Like, I feel like that the scene in the P.O.W. camp is almost sort of an introduction to what happens after the fact. Well, I can sort of understand on a on a like a fundamental level why, you know, they're kind of like, you know, no, this is just introducing this idea of right Russian roulette that one of the characters will then take to the extreme later on.

00:28:06:02 - 00:28:12:20

Cullen

And of course, De Niro is also, you know, very affected by it because he does the thing as junkies alley later. But yeah.

00:28:13:06 - 00:28:44:03

Clark

Well you know in a way that I'm thinking about it too is you know, if I think about so obviously we're talking about this Russian roulette scene. It's clearly a central, vital symbol, thematic symbol in this film. Right. And, you know, and maybe as as you're talking about how it's clear that this film has excluded a lot of this this the war experience, as it were, that most films would have kept in.

00:28:44:03 - 00:29:06:07

Clark

Right. What happened to these men as they've as they were, you know, landed down the battlefront and as they've experienced their first aspects of battle, etc., etc., all of that is foregone. And maybe an interesting way to think about it, I don't know. I'll posit this hypothesis to you and you tell me what you think is that the Russian roulette scene actually stands in for all of that.

00:29:06:07 - 00:29:30:15

Clark

So the Russian roulette scene is actually a symbol for the dehumanization and violence and kind of the senseless violence almost by chance that you know what I mean? That because because it's like nobody knows if they live or die. And it's almost just luck. You know, a lot of people like if you talk to a lot of soldiers, they're just like, this is like luck that I survived.

00:29:30:15 - 00:30:07:09

Clark

It's not any you know, it's like nothing else because it's like when people are dying to the left and right, it's just luck if you survive or not, you know? And so I almost feel like maybe this this motif of Russian roulette is kind of a stand in for that war experience for these soldiers. And so instead of, you know, kind of traveling with them as they go through, you know, different aspects of, you know, them arriving in country, them, you know, going through their first battles and etc., becoming more hardened, witnessing violence around them, the loss of a friend or etc., etc..

00:30:08:06 - 00:30:10:03

Clark

That's all contained within this scene.

00:30:10:15 - 00:30:13:11

Cullen

Yeah, it represents, yeah, a greater kind of scope.

00:30:13:16 - 00:30:35:18

Clark

And so than and that's revisited, you know, it's like how these characters then are affected by and deal with that violence. They were exposed to that trauma. So you see how you know Savages character is affected by that. Obviously he's he is physically you know I mean he's left almost like what I think he's like loses both his legs and an arm.

00:30:35:18 - 00:30:40:22

Clark

Right. Or something. I mean, so he's he's in a hospital. He's like unable to integrate at all.

00:30:40:22 - 00:30:42:22

Cullen

He doesn't even want to see his wife.

00:30:43:00 - 00:30:59:00

Clark

And his wife is so traumatized she can't even speak. Right. Knowing what has happened to her husband. And having gone through this, you see, walking doesn't come back from Vietnam at all. He and and he's is addicted to that. Like he literally the.

00:30:59:00 - 00:31:00:14

Cullen

Three starts.

00:31:00:14 - 00:31:13:12

Clark

Doing that. Is it Thriller? It's like you don't even know you know, it's like sometimes people relive violence. They're traumatized by not because they want more violence, but because it does something to it makes them.

00:31:14:01 - 00:31:19:20

Cullen

So, yeah, it's like it's like the only way they can feel alive and without any senselessness is is. Yeah.

00:31:20:05 - 00:31:44:03

Clark

And just and you see you know, that De Niro's character is, is, is he's, he's not not affected. He's not not affected. He is also affected but in a different way. And you see that in the remoteness, you know, in his inability to integrate back into the you know, and he sadly, you know, he goes and tries to save Walken's character.

00:31:44:03 - 00:31:54:17

Clark

And there's sadly that Russian roulette scene is kind of plays out again. And this time Walken dies, which is like a really super intense scene, man. I mean, that's one of the most.

00:31:55:09 - 00:31:55:22

Cullen

Who's.

00:31:56:04 - 00:32:14:11

Clark

Like they acting and performances in the scene and some of these I mean it's so gosh, I mean, a little digression here. I mean, it's when you have such emotionally intense scenes cut, it is so easy to to to do that wrong. Yeah. I mean, like and I know you've been there.

00:32:14:11 - 00:32:16:04

Cullen

And as a director or as an actor.

00:32:16:09 - 00:32:35:13

Clark

And I know that you've seen this probably in other projects that you've worked. And Lord knows I have seen this so many times. But I mean, where it's like it's so hard to hit that perfectly. Yeah, it is so difficult to hit this perfectly. And they really do. And that came back to me when I watched this again.

00:32:35:13 - 00:32:54:16

Clark

Was that just that rawness, that emotional intensity is like I feel like as rarely successfully captured on film, the way this film captures that in those few scenes, to me personally, I, I don't know if, if you felt some of that or if that if you could kind of what your experience of that was. But that's how I kind of experience that.

00:32:55:04 - 00:33:22:07

Cullen

Oh, yeah, without a doubt. I mean, I think that's that's one of the reasons that those are the iconic scenes of this film, right? Yeah, Yeah. The the way that they are played out, I would say, is definitely, you know, kind of the I would say that the the first one again with the like I think that that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the actual Russian roulette scene.

00:33:22:14 - 00:33:23:00

Clark

Mm hmm.

00:33:23:00 - 00:33:28:09

Cullen

I think that my Yeah I think the primary thing is that I'm kind of iffy on or the things surrounding it. So I think that this.

00:33:28:12 - 00:33:28:21

Clark

Is such a.

00:33:28:21 - 00:33:30:10

Cullen

Fantastic job of.

00:33:30:10 - 00:33:36:05

Clark

You know, Yeah. Like what stood out to you where you're like, you know, hey, this is, you know, I'm questionable or you said iffy like what?

00:33:36:05 - 00:33:36:20

Cullen

Or I think that.

00:33:36:20 - 00:33:37:19

Clark

There's some critiques of.

00:33:37:19 - 00:34:01:00

Cullen

The film. As I should have said, it was just that I felt like I felt like I wasn't as invested in the scene the first time. Like the first scene when they're playing Russian roulette in the actual camp. Oh, really? I felt like I wasn't as investors. I could have been I was I was certainly invested, but I felt like I could have been more invested had I not been sitting there going like, all right, what's what's what's the give here?

00:34:01:00 - 00:34:12:18

Cullen

You know, what's it like? And yeah, whereas the second one I think I got it is much, you know, I would argue perfect in a way because we have that stuff.

00:34:12:18 - 00:34:13:21

Clark

Gotcha. We know what.

00:34:14:00 - 00:34:33:19

Cullen

DeNiro is going to do, what he wants. We know Walken's character. We saw him in the hospital earlier when he breaks down, so we understand a little bit more about him, you know, And it's you know, it's not about to me again, it's not about plot. Like I said, you know, like like we did The Thin Red Line a while ago now.

00:34:33:19 - 00:34:47:18

Cullen

But, you know, that's a movie that really if you ask someone with that movie's about you can't really give an answer. There's there's not really much plot to that movie and yet you care really deeply about these characters that you don't have a lot of time with either.

00:34:48:04 - 00:34:48:07

Clark

Hmm.

00:34:48:09 - 00:34:49:13

Cullen

Yeah, because there's such.

00:34:49:13 - 00:34:50:03

Clark

An ensemble.

00:34:50:03 - 00:35:21:15

Cullen

Of characters in that. And so I think, you know, to relate that to kind of this, I think that first scene, I think if I just kind of again, because it's like you're because as I said, you know, every war movie discusses which rightfully so, discusses the idea that people change. And I think if I understood just the change that these characters had gone through a little bit better and just kind of got maybe just even like one little moment of of going like, all right, De Niro has been totally screwed up by this or Walken has been like his experience at war has been.

00:35:21:15 - 00:35:41:03

Cullen

And again, we don't need to see like I said, we only just see someone being blown up in front of us like that, but just something to go when they're sitting in those chairs that first time in the in the P.O.W. camp to go like, dang, like this is like I can understand so fundamentally how these people are have been and are being changed by this.

00:35:41:08 - 00:35:52:19

Cullen

Yeah yeah. Which I mean and I'm not saying that it doesn't do that at all by no means yeah I just think that there's there's elements to which I think they could have heightened it and they could have raised those like personal stakes.

00:35:53:02 - 00:36:11:20

Clark

And I can see that for sure. I mean, look, it's not like I didn't experience that like little disconnect as well, You know, I think because, you know, we get look, film is a type of grammar and grammar changes over time to write just like any language. Our language is always changing. You have some words, you know, leave the lexicon.

00:36:11:20 - 00:36:50:06

Clark

New words come into the lexicon and new ways of phrasing and syntax are also kind of morphing and changing. And film cinema is exactly that. It's a language and it has a grammar and it has a syntax and that changes. And I think our expectation that that's set by expectations, you know, Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. If this film were to be made today that I don't think a director would make that choice, I think 999 times out of a thousand or maybe a thousand out of a thousand, you know, but I think it'd be very unlikely that a director would make this change to to to just make a spatial like a geographic,

00:36:50:06 - 00:37:12:13

Clark

spatial and plot jump cut that huge. Yes. I don't I don't think that that would happen today. And I definitely see your point because you're not cut up now. You're with those characters in that bamboo cage in the river. You're you're back here. You're you're like, Whoa, wait a minute. What happened?

00:37:12:13 - 00:37:23:16

Cullen

And especially when you spend an hour, a little bit over an hour with those characters and the start of the film, and then suddenly, suddenly you're with them after such a life changing journey.

00:37:24:07 - 00:37:25:02

Clark

Yeah. And you're.

00:37:25:02 - 00:37:47:04

Cullen

Not. So it's it is kind of. But again, I do also kind of understand the aspect that the function of the P.O.W. scene is very much to represent and introduce this idea to. And, and so I think it's not necessarily I don't think I disagree with any of the like overarching fundamental choices, the film. I think it's more so that I think that there's like tweaks that could be made just to, of course.

00:37:47:05 - 00:37:48:00

Clark

Like not even have to.

00:37:48:15 - 00:37:48:17

Cullen

You.

00:37:48:17 - 00:38:07:13

Clark

Don't even have to qualify it. It's totally it's Yeah, totally appropriate as you know, it's like you're going to have different you're going to bring who you are as a filmmaker or as an audience member or a combination of the two to a film and have different thoughts and opinions. That's okay. Yeah. That doesn't invalidate the other person's choices or anything bound.

00:38:07:13 - 00:38:24:23

Clark

You know, it's what's interesting to kind of break things down and analyze them. I want to talk a little more about that Russian roulette scene, though, because, you know, there was a little bit of controversy. So back when the film was there was actually a couple of pieces of controversy about this film. One of them was specific to the Russian roulette scene in that.

00:38:25:06 - 00:38:49:04

Clark

So a lot of people, when this film was released said, hey, that actually didn't happen. You know, the Vietnamese that the North Vietnamese didn't do this to P.O.W.s. This was not there's like no recorded incidences of P.O.W.s being subjected to having to play Russian roulette. And apparently that was, you know, if you look back in the press at the time, this was a big issue on a lot of journalists and film critics.

00:38:49:04 - 00:39:20:03

Clark

You know, articles about the film. And apparently the director even had to kind of speak to this on a on a few occasions. I'm interested in it because I think it speaks to something that you and I have discussed a few times in this podcast, especially earlier, back when we were focused on Werner Herzog's films. It's this idea of fact and truth of, of of kind of like a literal factual accuracy and an esthetic artistic truth.

00:39:20:03 - 00:39:42:06

Clark

And I think this is a good example possibly of that. What do you think? I mean, especially what we're talking about, this is a this is a film that's that's that set in a like an actual historical event. Right. But the people are fictional, of course. The story itself is fictional. I mean, what are your thoughts not to put you on the spot, but but I'll put you know, I.

00:39:42:06 - 00:40:18:18

Cullen

Mean, I think yeah, I think that's kind of why I mentioned that it's not really analyzing the Vietnam War itself. Right. Because so many movies that do like that are, you know, Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket, Platoon, they all maybe a little bit less so with Platoon. But but actually, it certainly is in Platoon a lot. They all sort of analyze the United States role in the war and they kind of take, you know, a viewpoint of like the atrocities that were committed by the states in Vietnam, whereas this movie doesn't really touch any of that on it.

00:40:18:19 - 00:40:41:03

Cullen

Know none. Yeah, it is a specifically about these guys who are captured and, you know, have these essentially which are war crimes being on them. Right. Right Yeah. So it I think that that's and that's not to say that that's a negative aspect of it. I don't I you know, I'm not really looking into a movie for its politics.

00:40:41:03 - 00:41:01:08

Cullen

I'm looking into a movie for, you know, how it makes me feel. Right. So I don't I don't know if it's necessarily like even the point of the film, right to right to, like you said, to tell like a factual retelling of the Vietnam War the truth about it, or even if it a situation where you're not telling a factual retelling or anything like Apocalypse Now.

00:41:01:15 - 00:41:13:14

Cullen

You know, the the M.O. of Apocalypse Now is an anti-war film. It's it's to to criticize American involvement in Vietnam and it's to criticize.

00:41:13:14 - 00:41:15:04

Clark

Or maybe more in general war.

00:41:15:07 - 00:41:46:19

Cullen

War in general. Exactly where is this? I don't I don't really think that that is the thesis of this film. Yeah, I think the thesis of this film is is about the effect of of any conflict of any traumatic events on these, you know, working class blue collar guys from Pennsylvania. Yeah. So, yeah, I while I understand the, the, you know, the basis of the critique and the controversy, I think that it's I don't really quite think that that's what the movie was trying to say in the first place.

00:41:46:22 - 00:42:08:06

Cullen

Yeah. You know I don't think that it's necessarily something that's all that relevant in a way. I think that it's it's certainly heightening, you know, not to relate this film to like an adventure film, but like, you know, the Nazis weren't digging up the Ark of the Covenant, you know? Well, and that's a greater purpose. Right?

00:42:08:06 - 00:42:29:12

Clark

And that's an interesting point, you know, so that you bring up a very interesting point. In contrast, I think it's worth taking a look at so, you know, another thing that was that was a controversy about this film in addition to the accuracy of Russian roulette. And did the North Vietnamese actually do this to P.O.W.? Was just the representation of the Vietnamese people as a whole period?

00:42:30:01 - 00:42:53:17

Clark

And I would agree with you that I think this film is is not trying to make a specific factual statements about what Vietnam was, what happened in Vietnam. It's it's using symbology, I think, to try to tell tell a different story, which is this is what this is how violence and war can change people and disrupt a community.

00:42:53:17 - 00:43:17:03

Clark

And look at the ripples of that violence and how it can affect a small town, a group of people in a community. But of course, it's, you know, it's like you mentioned Indiana Jones. I don't know, I, I can't recall. And I and I haven't looked into this extensively, but my guess is, is that there wasn't a lot of complaints about the representation of Nazi.

00:43:17:03 - 00:43:17:18

Cullen

Nazism.

00:43:18:01 - 00:43:26:05

Clark

And. Well, no, no. And hold on. And I don't want this to come off wrong. I have not in any way, shape or form comparing Vietnamese to Nazis. That's I.

00:43:26:10 - 00:43:26:20

Cullen

Know that's.

00:43:26:23 - 00:43:49:09

Clark

Clear. That's not my intention at all, because I know that as soon as I said it, I was like, Whoa, that could sound weird. All I'm all I'm saying is that both of these films take place in a real historical event. So World War Two for one, and the Vietnam War, right after post, Vietnam War for the other film one is clearly a fiction.

00:43:49:09 - 00:44:11:09

Clark

You know, it's clearly fictional. It's it's it's a it's like a much lighter adventure film. And so and it has supernatural elements, you know, And I mean, it's like so I don't think anybody's getting confused that this is, you know, Indiana Jones is not an actual, you know, representation of anything real that happened. But I think it might speak to you could think that this was a real thing, right.

00:44:11:09 - 00:44:34:13

Clark

You this this Deer Hunter is represented in such a almost documentary way in some aspects. Right. It's extremely realistic and in some. And so maybe maybe that's part of what that is. You know, where it's like you know, it's it happened you know, this film was released in 78. The Vietnam War is very fresh on the minds of so many people.

00:44:34:13 - 00:44:54:08

Clark

So many people are still reeling from the effects of that, of course, both in Vietnam and here in the United States and elsewhere. So it's it's it's very much it's it's it's close, you know, time wise. And the film is is talking about something so sensitive and so powerful, such profound experience for so many people that had such an impact.

00:44:54:08 - 00:45:04:02

Clark

So I could definitely understand why people would be sensitive to these things in that film and why they might not be for Indiana Jones know.

00:45:04:03 - 00:45:38:22

Cullen

Yeah, I would say honestly, my one major critique of I do have one of the film and again, this isn't really a critique of the filmmaking, but it's that the and I mean the technical like, you know, craftsmanship of the filmmaking, that scene, the opening scene in Vietnam when they're in that, that village. Yeah it almost paints like it's oh it almost again misses this opportunity to explore, you know, the idea of PTSD in a greater light in not I don't mean great in a positive light.

00:45:38:22 - 00:45:40:04

Cullen

I mean greater is in more.

00:45:40:09 - 00:45:41:00

Clark

Significant.

00:45:41:00 - 00:46:08:00

Cullen

Deeper extent that so what we see is we see this this Northern Vietnamese soldier or I guess they are Viet Cong because they have the Viet Cong flag hung up in the the P.O.W. camp. Mm hmm. Putting a grenade in a, you know, bunker filled with with Vietnamese civilians. Right. Whereas what I think the reason that stuck out to me and then we have Robert De Niro trying to save them and he lights them on fire to let that.

00:46:08:06 - 00:46:09:04

Clark

Yeah.

00:46:09:04 - 00:46:37:14

Cullen

The reason I think that stuck out to me and I think didn't really work for me is because another thing that that a lot of films explore, especially contemporary films, but even back then, again, you know, Apocalypse Now does and Platoon does as well, is that a lot of the reason that these guys were coming back so screwed up with PTSD was because of the atrocities that were being committed by by like, they would they would be, you know, the American soldiers that were forced to to massacre civilians and things like that.

00:46:37:14 - 00:47:11:17

Cullen

And you get that whole scene in Apocalypse Now with the Ride of the Valkyries, where they're, you know, there's bombing a village and platoon that that's kind of the huge function of this plot is that there's one character to who kind of is is like this madman who's massacring all these civilians. And so I think that it was missing this opportunity to also add a level of of like significance there where where it kind of like for a second that that that village scene almost turns into just kind of like a like a strange sort of like hero versus villain action scene.

00:47:12:08 - 00:47:28:11

Cullen

Yeah, you've got De Niro on the ground and he's like rushing over with a flamethrower and, you know, it's that guy is so it was kind of it was just kind of one of those things where I was like, definitely. I was not expecting that. And it felt a little bit more two dimensional than the rest of the film.

00:47:28:14 - 00:47:30:03

Cullen

I think that's a good way to put it. Is that it just.

00:47:30:03 - 00:47:41:12

Clark

Yeah, I think it's the weakest part of the film that's from from when we are immediately thrust into Vietnam until the ah, until we're in the P.O.W. camp itself. That's what maybe 5 minutes of film is.

00:47:41:12 - 00:47:42:03

Cullen

Yeah. Yeah.

00:47:42:11 - 00:48:10:16

Clark

That's, it's the weakest 5 minutes of the film, I think by far by a long shot. I would agree with you. It's, it's, it's just, it's disjointed and it, it seems like there's a lot of opportunity that's left on the table like you have. You've already discussed. I would agree. Yeah, I would agree. But I just I think it's interesting, you know, as I think just to go back a little bit to this idea of fact versus, you know, a static truth versus factual truth.

00:48:11:00 - 00:48:34:12

Clark

And then I think it's a it's a it's a question that any artist is confronted with every time you create, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And and it it's it's not always easy. It's not always, you know I think you know matter what's one of the things that I've noticed as an artist I mean you can hold anything that you might want in your heart, right while you're creating something, you can hold something.

00:48:34:12 - 00:49:03:15

Clark

And it's so clear and it's so crystal to you. But then once you release your work out into the world, every single person that sees it is going to is going to have that experience and and potentially an entirely different experience, you know? Yes. Yeah. And it could be so contradictory to what you hold in your heart. And it's hard to sometimes explain to people that, you know, because their experience is their experience, they're like, well, no, I saw I saw this film and film and this is what I experienced.

00:49:03:15 - 00:49:22:04

Clark

And, you know, and you're you could be over here saying, Oh, my gosh, I had the exact opposite thing in my heart when I made this film. So it's it's just definitely can be challenging, especially if you're dealing with sensitive, historic stories, you know, that kind of set in a real history. Yeah.

00:49:22:19 - 00:49:29:21

Cullen

And so I think I guess to to one of the things that we haven't really spoken too much about yet is is the almost segments.

00:49:29:23 - 00:49:30:18

Clark

Oh happy.

00:49:30:20 - 00:49:53:13

Cullen

Yeah. So it was obviously shot on film 5247 which is one of my favorite film stocks and it was shot at anamorphic very you know Yeah. Now that they're those those old C series anamorphic speakers when they're the wedding scene in particular you know you've got when like it's like you really only have like a sliver of of frame that was focus focus like the top the bottom and the sides.

00:49:53:13 - 00:50:11:06

Cullen

You had this huge amount of focus fall off. But I do think, you know, I like that look, I think it's a really interesting look. I like segment. I think that the way that he again presents this town, you know, which is primarily through prose post-processing in a film like it's grainy and it's dull.

00:50:11:06 - 00:50:18:18

Clark

And it's well, I think they underexposed it a couple of stops and then pushed it in right out development Right. If I'm mistaken. That's what it looks like knowing.

00:50:18:18 - 00:50:25:17

Cullen

That because it's super it's like the grain is really, really, really clear. Yeah. And very, very you know, at the forefront of the image.

00:50:26:00 - 00:50:27:08

Clark

And it's very dark.

00:50:27:16 - 00:50:46:06

Cullen

It's I mean, you know, I, I just love again that that those moments in that town in Pennsylvania I think are so like eerily beautiful. Like it kind of makes you feel of like a you know, a little bit like an industrial revolution sort of feel factories that are overlooking whole town. And so I think that that yeah.

00:50:46:06 - 00:50:48:02

Cullen

So I think. SIGMAN did you know as per.

00:50:48:02 - 00:50:49:07

Clark

Usual there's so beautiful.

00:50:49:07 - 00:50:49:19

Cullen

Job.

00:50:49:20 - 00:51:06:07

Clark

And contrast contrasted with those beautiful beautiful landscape that holography where they're hitting the deer is just so I think there's in the commentary they talked about how I think it took it took them about three weeks to shoot all of the deer hunting footage both.

00:51:06:07 - 00:51:06:15

Cullen

Really.

00:51:06:15 - 00:51:13:04

Clark

For and after to get to get everything perfect where they had the clouds low and thick and moving in the background.

00:51:13:04 - 00:51:18:14

Cullen

Yeah, especially at the end when the fog is coming over that mountain behind De Niro as he stalks the deer.

00:51:18:14 - 00:51:33:18

Clark

And they they used trained deers. So this was interesting because I always wonder, I'm like, well, how in the world do you get a deer to pretend that it was shot? Like how in the world? Yeah, that so the way they did that was that says there are such thing as trained deer. So I.

00:51:33:18 - 00:51:34:23

Cullen

Mean even though that deer.

00:51:35:03 - 00:51:55:11

Clark

Are from the time they're born, they're raised by humans so they're not scared of people and they actually tranquilized them. So that's how they actually get the deer to fall, as if it had been shot, was to tranquilize it, and then they they shoot it, you know, kind of falling over and passing out, I guess, for lack of a better term.

00:51:55:16 - 00:51:58:18

Clark

I don't know if that's something that you can do in today's day and age. I don't know.

00:51:58:19 - 00:52:02:08

Cullen

Yeah, I wonder. I don't I dealt with the tranquilizer. You'd probably have to. Yeah.

00:52:02:15 - 00:52:03:16

Clark

Because I mean, I'm interesting though.

00:52:03:16 - 00:52:04:23

Cullen

I had no idea that that but Yeah.

00:52:05:04 - 00:52:14:16

Clark

Yeah, yeah. I had no idea either because I was so curious. I'm like, there is no way in the world that you could get a deer to just fall over. Like, how is that even possible? Yeah, and that's the tranquilizer.

00:52:14:16 - 00:52:26:23

Cullen

I guess they're reindeer then, because they're domesticated. Yeah, but, but it's, but I think that that's also those, those mountain moments which are again very clearly shot in the Rockies or something because that's not really what the Appalachians. Yeah.

00:52:26:23 - 00:52:28:14

Clark

I'm not sure where that was shot. Yeah.

00:52:28:14 - 00:52:53:06

Cullen

But looks like the Rockies at least. But that it I think goes to show you that I think a lot of times people just assume that like it's very easy to shoot beautiful landscapes because the landscape is is the beautiful part and you just point the camera out and you're good. But I've seen, you know, the way that Sigman shoots the the landscapes and this and the way that, you know, you all you have to do is watch, watch them.

00:52:53:07 - 00:53:03:06

Cullen

You know, I can't really think of anything off the top of my head immediately, but I've certainly seen films that are shot in very beautiful locations that don't take advantage of that or don't. Oh, here's a.

00:53:03:21 - 00:53:21:05

Clark

Great here's a really easy way to illustrate this for people. So everybody listening, I'm sure this has happened to you. It's happened to me. You're you're standing in an absolutely gorgeous place with a beautiful landscape view. And you take out your iPhone and you try to take a picture of it and then what does it look like? Crap?

00:53:21:05 - 00:53:21:14

Cullen

Mm hmm.

00:53:21:23 - 00:53:22:08

Clark

I mean.

00:53:22:13 - 00:53:28:06

Cullen

Exactly. And it's not just the camera because, you know, you can get pretty gorgeous images on an iPhone, but.

00:53:28:06 - 00:53:45:17

Clark

Yeah, yeah. No, it's. I just mean that it's you're right. I'm agreeing with you just because you've got a beautiful landscape. Does it mean for a second that that's easy to capture? It is actually. I am actually almost always severely disappointed with my ability to capture the beauty that I see with my eyes with a camera when it comes to landscapes.

00:53:45:17 - 00:53:51:09

Clark

And I have a tremendous amount of respect for cinematographers and directors who are able to actually cast.

00:53:51:12 - 00:53:57:13

Cullen

Which is funny because I think we're sort of the opposite in that I find. So I find it really the shooting people very challenging.

00:53:58:00 - 00:53:58:11

Clark

Yeah.

00:53:59:05 - 00:54:08:06

Cullen

We talked about this before where you know we've talked that Yeah, yeah I like I like landscapes are like I'm a really big fan of Monet and so I love like these, like sweeping vistas.

00:54:08:06 - 00:54:27:18

Clark

And it even affects the lens choices that we usually like to work with. I tend to work with a little bit longer lenses. I like to get in people's faces and you tend to use much wider lenses and kind of de-emphasize a focus on an actor's face and get kind of more of a sense of like space where you're at.

00:54:28:14 - 00:54:35:06

Clark

It's interesting, huh? Yeah. But I always disappoint myself when I try to get an amazing landscape that seems very tough.

00:54:35:06 - 00:54:54:20

Cullen

It's it's it's not easy. I mean, it's like, I think that's the mistake, right? That assuming that the landscape will look good no matter what. And then and then, you know, again, like you said, you look at the image on your phone and you're like that looks like crap. But but yeah, I think SIGMA'S really, you know, he's great at that.

00:54:54:20 - 00:55:04:18

Cullen

Even just the the scene when De Niro is chasing walking in the car after he sees him in Saigon and he's running after the car. When he's in the car with the Frenchman, it's like.

00:55:05:04 - 00:55:08:13

Clark

Not not when he's running after the car, when he's naked, right? No, no, no.

00:55:09:00 - 00:55:28:09

Cullen

These like neon, you know, like lights that line the street. And you've got that tungsten film. So everything's sort of got this blue. Like all the lights sort of have this blue tinge to them. And, you know, I think that there's a reason that he's he's a legendary cinematographer. He did two of Spielberg's movies. And did, you know, a lot of a lot of classics.

00:55:28:09 - 00:55:28:18

Cullen

So.

00:55:29:11 - 00:55:37:01

Clark

Yeah, he's one of the best, there's no question. Yeah, we haven't talked about any of his films here, although we might.

00:55:37:01 - 00:55:40:02

Cullen

But we did one. We did talk about that long Goodbye.

00:55:40:12 - 00:55:50:23

Clark

Oh, that's right, that's right, We did long Goodbye. But I mean, it's, you know, McCabe and Miss Miller, we've got, you know, Sugarland Express, Close Encounters of the Third Kind Blow Out, which is one of my favorite films.

00:55:50:23 - 00:55:51:15

Cullen

Well, it's great.

00:55:51:15 - 00:56:04:17

Clark

Yeah. I mean, yeah, he's done some. I mean, his filmography is quite impressive. There's no question. One of the best cinematographers to ever, ever, ever hold the position. There's no no doubt.

00:56:05:01 - 00:56:05:20

Cullen

Yes. Yeah.

00:56:06:02 - 00:56:39:21

Clark

That and a pivotal figure in American kind of new wave of cinema at that time, for sure. Wow, man. I mean, what you know, something we had we hadn't talked at all about music, about the score. But but, you know, you and I had talked about this briefly. And it's interesting, the music that stands out to me most in this film is not any kind of score, but is in, you know, whether it's the the kind of the Russian folk music that's so prominent and prevalent in the wedding.

00:56:40:20 - 00:57:06:12

Clark

I think it's really successfully used to to illustrate kind of the most like the ancestral context of this community, which is actually really beautiful and fun to see with the dancing that they do in that. And that and in that. But you've you've got some Russian funeral music. You've got when they're at the bar, they're kind of singing along, showing camaraderie.

00:57:08:02 - 00:57:24:23

Clark

And of course, and I want to really talk to you about this scene because I'm curious what your take was on it, because it's one of the more obvious kind of usages of music. And the film is at the very end at the coda, when when you've got them all sitting around the table and singing God Bless America.

00:57:24:23 - 00:57:35:14

Clark

I'm curious, what was your take on that? Do you feel like that? Was that a genuine or an ironic moment in your mind? And there's no wrong answer because I think the audio is.

00:57:35:18 - 00:57:49:17

Cullen

The actors seem to definitely be playing it ironic. I mean, it's like the look on Meryl Streep's face is without a doubt very yeah, very I but I don't know. I mean, I couldn't tell you.

00:57:50:10 - 00:57:51:05

Clark

I mean it best.

00:57:51:05 - 00:57:55:19

Cullen

There are sometimes there are like there are different takes from the writers to the actors, right.

00:57:55:19 - 00:57:56:06

Clark

Yeah. Yeah.

00:57:56:08 - 00:58:18:17

Cullen

So it, it could have very well been written as a genuine. And the reason I say that too is because it is hard to tell what the writer's real take on the American involvement in the Vietnam War. It's like there's not really a clear, you know, the political statement being made by the film.

00:58:18:20 - 00:58:20:15

Clark

No, that's not so.

00:58:20:15 - 00:58:34:11

Cullen

It can be difficult to kind of discern, I would say that, yeah, I think that the actors definitely brought more of the ironic, more of the kind of critical, you know, approach to that. But fair.

00:58:34:11 - 00:58:58:05

Clark

Totally fair assessment. I think my, you know, kind of knee jerk response to it was maybe more of like bittersweet as opposed to maybe ironic, you know? So I don't know what that means. Exactly. Kind of maybe bittersweet is leans a little towards the ironic. You know, it's clearly not like, hey, happy days, you know, God bless America, you know, apple pie.

00:58:58:15 - 00:59:17:11

Clark

You know, it's definitely bittersweet at most. But that was kind of my main takeaway. But I could certainly see and it's interesting, in the commentary, Vilmos talks about how when he was reading the script, how he was like looking at this and like, oh, my gosh, you know, he ghost, he goes to Camino and was like, Are you really going to do this?

00:59:17:11 - 00:59:20:05

Clark

This is going to be so cheesy. Like, this is going to be or.

00:59:20:06 - 00:59:33:18

Cullen

And I wonder if it's because, of course, you're from the States and I'm nine and six not. Yeah. So I wonder if if that's maybe the difference is just that like I obviously don't have a connection to the song or God Bless America and neither would Zsigmond.

00:59:34:01 - 00:59:34:19

Clark

Yeah, yeah.

00:59:34:19 - 00:59:37:14

Cullen

And yeah, so I wonder if it's if it's the cultural thing.

00:59:37:16 - 01:00:01:15

Clark

Well, he said so Vilmos didn't admit. So after it was actually performed the way it was performed, the way you see it, that he changed his mind, you know? Yeah. Because it is more nuanced because it, it, it, it does have like a certain sense of bitter sweetness and irony in it that makes it more nuanced and complex as opposed to just like some patriotic, you know, like, I mean, that would have felt really bizarre.

01:00:01:23 - 01:00:06:00

Clark

Just so bizarre at the end of this film for it to have just been some kind of.

01:00:06:00 - 01:00:07:01

Cullen

Breaking out in the song.

01:00:07:06 - 01:00:33:02

Clark

I know that that would have been really, really out of place. Well, yeah. I mean, any any final words on the film? I a it's fun again as always to kind of like get to get to hear your take on it from another generation on a first viewing that's always that's always fun for me. So anything else that you kind of any last thoughts that you might have?

01:00:33:02 - 01:00:35:08

Clark

I feel like we've probably covered pretty much everything.

01:00:35:19 - 01:00:36:12

Cullen

We know I.

01:00:37:00 - 01:00:37:04

Clark

Our.

01:00:37:09 - 01:00:39:03

Cullen

Yeah, yeah. We got a lot.

01:00:39:12 - 01:01:01:07

Clark

We got a lot. All right. Well, as always, audience, our lovely audience out there. Thank you for for hanging out there with us. I hope that you've enjoyed this episode, Episode 55. We look forward to next when we will discuss another film. We don't know which one yet, but this is going to be Colin's choice next time, so we'll just have to wait and see.

01:01:01:07 - 01:01:06:13

Clark

But until then, everybody have a wonderful couple of weeks. We'll catch you next time.

01:01:06:13 - 01:01:10:08

Cullen

Bye bye.

Episode - 054 - Heat

00:00:10:17

Clark

Hello, everybody, and welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. As always, I'm Clark Coffey, and with me is Mr. Cullen McFater.

00:00:21:02 - 00:00:23:21

Cullen

Hello. Well, what's come? Allergies are better this week.

00:00:24:20 - 00:00:46:22

Clark

Oh, right. Excellent. Yeah. Hopefully I won't have to edit out so many sneezes this time. I am glad that your allergies are doing better. But yeah, we're here once again to talk about another one of our films that we have that we spend hours and hours and hours mulling over, deciding what to pick, what to discuss with you guys there in the audience.

00:00:47:06 - 00:00:55:17

Clark

And this time around it's Colin's pick and he has chosen 1995 Michael Mann masterpiece Heat.

00:00:56:05 - 00:00:59:18

Cullen

Yes, a epic of crime.

00:01:00:00 - 00:01:00:15

Clark

An epic.

00:01:00:18 - 00:01:01:13

Cullen

Romance.

00:01:01:13 - 00:01:05:16

Clark

And an epic of epic proportions of epic ness.

00:01:05:16 - 00:01:13:04

Cullen

And I mean, this is not a by any means a not well known movie similar to last week's, which was, you know, both these are very famous.

00:01:13:04 - 00:01:14:23

Clark

I've never seen this before. Ever heard of it.

00:01:14:23 - 00:01:19:06

Cullen

I Oh, really? Yeah. No, it's I mean, it's an indie. It's, it's maybe it's popular up here in Canada, right?

00:01:19:06 - 00:01:25:22

Clark

Well, you know, I know that Michael Mann, you know, he's only made a few small things and most people don't know of them.

00:01:25:22 - 00:01:26:21

Cullen

And here and there.

00:01:27:00 - 00:01:39:17

Clark

I it was actually really hard for me to find this. You know, I had to I had to dig and dig. And then I finally found a Criterion Collection disc in the bargain bin at my local goodwill. Yeah. Yep.

00:01:39:18 - 00:01:45:10

Cullen

And there's not you know, he doesn't really have that distinctive style. So you kind of got to really search for him when you're watching.

00:01:45:10 - 00:01:51:21

Clark

And he never works with big actors. So it's like, Yeah, I know, I know. It's it was tough, but I did. But I did find a copy.

00:01:52:17 - 00:01:55:09

Cullen

Yeah. No, but it's this is it's, it's.

00:01:55:09 - 00:01:55:15

Clark

Not.

00:01:55:19 - 00:01:57:18

Cullen

One of my favorites. Definitely. Without a doubt. Yeah.

00:01:57:18 - 00:02:10:13

Clark

It's not a hidden gem. Yeah, it's not a hidden gem. And probably most of you out there listening, you have. You have not only heard of, but you have seen this film as well. Almost Certainly you have. But yeah, I mean, let's jump into. Why did you pick it?

00:02:12:05 - 00:02:30:13

Cullen

I actually I don't I don't know why it came to my mind. It was it was a really, as you know, was a really quick choice. I like pretty much as we wrapped up the last episode, I was like, I know exactly what I want to do next right? I don't I don't know what spurred it on. I mean, I guess more broadly speaking, it's always been a movie that I've loved since I first saw it.

00:02:30:13 - 00:02:47:00

Cullen

I think that it's it's you know, biometrics. I think it's a masterpiece. I think that it's one of those movies that you can watch and you're like, you know, there's there's almost nothing that I am, like, iffy on at all. Yeah. If anything at all. It's it's, um.

00:02:47:13 - 00:03:00:08

Clark

Well, tell me about that. I mean, tell me about, you know, so this film came out when I was a kid, depending on the month and I forget, but I think probably like freshman or sophomore in college.

00:03:00:14 - 00:03:02:06

Cullen

Is December of 1990.

00:03:02:06 - 00:03:03:02

Clark

Five. Okay.

00:03:03:02 - 00:03:05:14

Cullen

So that was I was negative two and a half.

00:03:05:14 - 00:03:13:07

Clark

You were negative two and a half. So when did you first see this movie and what were your thoughts on it for the first time that you saw it?

00:03:14:00 - 00:03:23:19

Cullen

The first time I saw it, I was in probably grade ten. It was right around the time that grand theft Auto five came out. So 2000.

00:03:24:09 - 00:03:25:11

Clark

Is that why you saw it?

00:03:26:06 - 00:03:48:08

Cullen

Yeah. No, I saw I played. Oh, really? Five and I'd played a few the other GTA games. Like I was always a pretty big fan of them. Fun. Um, and there was just so many references to it in the game. Like even just the story itself, half of the heists are heat related and the main characters is, is like basically, um, you know, De Niro in heat.

00:03:48:12 - 00:03:48:20

Clark

Uh huh.

00:03:48:22 - 00:04:09:20

Cullen

Um, and I, I had seen, you know, everyone's seen the big gunfight in the shootout at the bank. HEIST Yeah. You know, it's a really famous scene. LA Um, and so I'd seen that, and I just remember, uh, watching it or sorry, playing, playing GTA and just going like, you know what? I should probably finally see Heat.

00:04:09:20 - 00:04:15:07

Clark

Now, how did you know that it was based on heat or that it was how did you know that the game was inspired?

00:04:15:11 - 00:04:33:08

Cullen

Say, I just seen the clips before and okay, you know, it's one of those movies that even though I hadn't seen, I knew a lot of you do love it either vague, you know, storyline and it was about bank heists and robberies and stuff in L.A. Right? And I always, you know, I think that it was one of those things that like going into it, I didn't expect to like it nearly as much as I did.

00:04:33:08 - 00:04:50:13

Cullen

Not that I expected to not like it, but I expected to kind of watch it and have it be one of those movies that you're like, Yeah, that's good. You know, it's a good movie. I did not expect it to to, you know, be something that is so, you know, again, still to this day, one of my favorite movies.

00:04:51:05 - 00:04:55:03

Cullen

And I think the reason for that was because I had seen Manhunter before.

00:04:55:14 - 00:04:57:02

Clark

Now before you had seen.

00:04:57:08 - 00:04:58:14

Cullen

Before I had seen.

00:04:58:14 - 00:04:59:00

Clark

Okay.

00:04:59:15 - 00:05:16:06

Cullen

And for those of you who don't know, Manhunter is based on the book Red Dragon, which is the book that came up before Silence of the Lambs. So that was like so that's why I I've always loved Silence of the Lambs. And so I had seen Manhunter, and I'm not huge on Manhunter. I think it's it's a fun movie.

00:05:16:06 - 00:05:37:01

Cullen

I think it's really good. But I think silence of the Lambs is is a much better crafted film for that kind of genre and that kind of story. I think Manhunter is a little bit too like, you know, Miami Vice in some places it gets a little bit kind of like crime, you know, action for for, for my my taste in that, you know, genre.

00:05:37:01 - 00:05:55:11

Cullen

And so I don't think I really expected to love Heat but like I do, I think this is like a five out of five, you know, five stars, two thumbs up. I think. I think the reason for that, though, is just because how how refined, how well-crafted, how restrained Mann's direction is.

00:05:55:11 - 00:05:58:16

Clark

Like, what stood out to you when you when you were in 10th grade when just.

00:05:58:16 - 00:06:18:10

Cullen

The I mean I think that the performances as well. But I think that it's and I'm going to get into this more and you know, I've mentioned this a little bit before, but I think that, you know, when we talk about Mann's direction, I'll get into it in more detail. But I think that it it was kind of the first thing that really introduced me to like what I kind of coined is like vibe filmmaking.

00:06:19:06 - 00:06:20:08

Clark

Which is the setting.

00:06:20:08 - 00:06:45:20

Cullen

Where every scene exudes the tone, it exudes the like the the theme, just the feel, the overall feel of of a scene is permeated with with the overarching, you know, theme and tone of the film, whether that is the music that is kind of underlying, even in the simplest of dialog scenes where there's just kind of like a little bit of a drone.

00:06:45:20 - 00:07:06:01

Cullen

The cinematography in each scene is so dramatic and heightened, but not in a distracting way, in a way that serves the story really, really, really fantastically. Um, and so I think it was kind of the first time that, that, you know, you kind of watch a movie and you go like, you know, you're obviously taking things, especially as someone who, you know, was young and really into film and stuff like that.

00:07:06:01 - 00:07:13:03

Cullen

You, you're always trying to pick up on, you know, not necessarily techniques in a literal sense of like writing down like, oh, well, how do they move?

00:07:13:03 - 00:07:14:03

Clark

Right? But you're so put.

00:07:14:03 - 00:07:32:19

Cullen

It up on on Yeah. The workmanship of, of a director. Yeah. And I think that this was just something different. It was just, it was something similar but also different like, you know, when something is really accessible and something is really easy to easy to watch and get into, sort of very similar to what we were talking about last week.

00:07:33:01 - 00:08:01:01

Cullen

Pulp Fiction, um, where it's very accessible, it's very easy to get into. Yeah, but at the same time it's unapologetically personal to the person making it. You know, man is all over this movie through and through. Yeah. And so I think that that's something that really, you know, proves that it is possible to be a really, really individual, unique filmmaker while simultaneously making a movie that is pretty widely beloved by most people.

00:08:01:14 - 00:08:14:08

Cullen

You know, anyone who's a fan of film usually references this as a as a really good flick, a really good action flick. You know, it's cited as one of the best action movies of all time. And there's honestly not even a ton of action in it.

00:08:15:05 - 00:08:17:05

Clark

But the action that's there is great, but.

00:08:17:06 - 00:08:31:14

Cullen

It's fantastic and very intense. I mean, I always forget how intense that robbery scene is. The the shootout, like you're you're sitting there watching it and you're like, oh, you know, I know what's coming. I know it's coming. And then suddenly you're just like, gripped to the screen and you're you're on the edge of your seat, literally.

00:08:32:01 - 00:08:32:11

Clark

Yeah.

00:08:32:18 - 00:08:34:12

Cullen

Just there. It's so, so.

00:08:34:12 - 00:08:35:17

Clark

Inland and so and.

00:08:35:17 - 00:08:43:03

Cullen

Then you realize it's one of those scenes where at the end of the scene, when they drive off you, you release your breath and you're like, I was just holding my breath the whole time. Yeah. You know, it's.

00:08:43:04 - 00:09:05:16

Clark

It's in the land, in the land before CGI. These are these are the things that we had kids in the land before CGI, you know, But, well, you know, so that's funny. So I guess kind of in a way, the GTA or video games kind of led you to to check out this film. I guess for lack of a right in in it for the most part.

00:09:06:03 - 00:09:22:14

Clark

I mean, for me, it's like I grew up, you know, I grew up in the eighties or at least partially in the eighties, eighties and nineties and, you know, so I first kind of knew who Michael Mann was because of Miami Vice. Miami Vice was he I think exact produced that his name was all over that show.

00:09:22:19 - 00:09:25:01

Cullen

And for the directed a few episodes the pilot I think.

00:09:25:05 - 00:09:43:22

Clark

Probably I don't take many but a few but it definitely his stamp is on that and that was that show was like instantly became a big part of pop culture when I was a kid, right? So when I was like ten or whatever, that show was like a big part of pop culture and nuts still is. Yeah, I guess that's fair.

00:09:43:22 - 00:10:04:17

Clark

That's fair. I mean, its impact is still, is still felt. And uh, so, so I kind of had had that a little bit of a background there, you know, not that I like really consciously knew who Michael Mann was, but by the time this came out again, I'm like a sophomore ish in college. So I kind of, you know, knew all those things.

00:10:04:22 - 00:10:26:15

Clark

Of course I knew who Al Pacino was. Of course I knew who De Niro was. I had seen their other work. They were about as big an actors as you could get at that time in 95. And I had seen other work of Michael Mann's. I'm trying to put the timing down, but I think, you know, like Last of the Mohicans I saw in the theater, I think that was the film that he made right before he.

00:10:26:17 - 00:10:40:06

Clark

So I watched that at the theater when it came out, and I liked that quite a bit. So all of it's like, you know, all these things that's like already on my radar, right? So yeah, so it was like a no brainer for me to go see this film when it came out.

00:10:40:14 - 00:10:47:10

Cullen

Was this the first time Pacino and De Niro were like, costars like this?

00:10:47:13 - 00:10:51:23

Clark

So not not costars, but in a scene where they actually acted.

00:10:52:00 - 00:10:54:12

Cullen

Yeah, because they'd been in Godfather, but they never had any scenes.

00:10:54:15 - 00:11:09:18

Clark

They did Godfather to Godfather two, but they were in any scenes together. Yeah. So? So that was like one of the big marketing hooks for this role. It was like, you know, see Pacino and De Niro, you know, together, you know, in the same film, in the same scene.

00:11:10:15 - 00:11:17:15

Cullen

And speaking of Miami Vice as well, I've heard that Mann's new show, Tokyo Vice's is really good.

00:11:18:03 - 00:11:21:02

Clark

Well, I didn't even know that he had a new show. He directed the.

00:11:21:02 - 00:11:22:03

Cullen

Pilot of that as well.

00:11:22:14 - 00:11:24:14

Clark

As he pitched. Is that on HBO?

00:11:25:11 - 00:11:29:15

Cullen

Not sure what it's on. Uh, I think it's HBO, though. I think it's on HBO or.

00:11:29:16 - 00:11:31:17

Clark

Or what was the name of it again?

00:11:32:01 - 00:11:32:21

Cullen

Tokyo Vice.

00:11:32:21 - 00:11:34:10

Clark

Tokyo Vice. That's interesting.

00:11:34:10 - 00:11:35:16

Cullen

Is based off of a book.

00:11:36:09 - 00:11:38:19

Clark

Yes, I think that is on HBO. Max.

00:11:38:19 - 00:11:39:05

Cullen

HBO.

00:11:39:05 - 00:11:42:20

Clark

Max. Yeah, Yeah. I think that's on HBO. Max I'll have to check that out. But yeah.

00:11:42:20 - 00:11:57:18

Cullen

I've heard, I've heard good things about that. But, you know, I think, I think that that's, you know, I, that Michael Mann is I knew him as the director that defined the driving down a street with the halogen lights above you at night.

00:11:57:18 - 00:12:02:23

Clark

And the camera and the cameras lights it's like placed, you know, like right behind like the.

00:12:03:09 - 00:12:06:00

Cullen

Most iconic scene in Miami. Vice in the air.

00:12:06:00 - 00:12:08:03

Clark

Tonight and the air tonight. Absolutely. And I think that's and.

00:12:08:03 - 00:12:10:10

Cullen

I used to drive around like that all the time in high school.

00:12:10:19 - 00:12:11:14

Clark

And I think.

00:12:11:14 - 00:12:12:19

Cullen

That that's. Yeah.

00:12:12:20 - 00:12:15:15

Clark

So it's iconic. It's iconic and his yeah you speak to.

00:12:15:16 - 00:12:25:17

Cullen

Again and another inspiration I actually didn't really think about this but drive the Nicolas Winding Refn film is very clearly you know.

00:12:25:17 - 00:12:41:14

Clark

There's so much out there Yeah yeah yeah so I yeah so so anyway it was like all these things, you know, it's like, of course I'm going to go see this film. Interestingly though, enough, like I don't have a specific memory of the first time I saw it. I can't recall if I saw this in a theater. I don't recall if I saw this on home video.

00:12:41:18 - 00:12:59:19

Clark

I think it's it's it's likely I saw it in the theater, but I can't remember that. But it's one of those films that I just feel like I've always known. Right? It's like I just feel like this film is just like kind of a part of my cinematic mind and body, you know? I like, you know, it's like always been there.

00:13:00:00 - 00:13:22:23

Clark

It was almost funny is like when I, you know, of course I watched it again to get it fresh in my mind. And it actually hasn't even been that long since I've seen it. I saw this with my my wife, I think, and maybe some friends just like maybe four or five years ago. So it's not even been that long since I've seen it, watched it again for this, and it almost just feels like like an old friend, you know, it just feels like like I know every moment.

00:13:22:23 - 00:13:37:19

Clark

I kind of know every beat. I'm like, oh, yeah, there's, you know, look how young Pacino and De Niro is, you know? Oh, my gosh, you know, Oh, what's her face? Gosh, I like Portman. Look how Natalie Portman is. Just Oh.

00:13:37:19 - 00:13:39:22

Cullen

Yeah. I always forget that she's in the studio somehow.

00:13:39:22 - 00:13:40:06

Clark

I know.

00:13:40:06 - 00:13:42:17

Cullen

I'm always like, she comes on. I'm like, Oh, yeah, I.

00:13:42:17 - 00:13:45:16

Clark

Know, I know. I'm like, Look how young she is. And Natalie.

00:13:45:16 - 00:13:48:00

Cullen

Portman and Ted Levine are the two people that I'm always like, happily.

00:13:48:00 - 00:14:01:11

Clark

Surprised. And I mean, it's like and I always I have this thing where I'm like, Val, I'm like Val Kilmer, who I quite like, and I'm like, Val Kilmer and his elbow. If you ever noticed the giant tumor on his elbow in this movie.

00:14:02:00 - 00:14:04:11

Cullen

No, what I've never.

00:14:04:11 - 00:14:11:04

Clark

Seen not to digress so far, but I am like, I cannot not stare at it when I watch this.

00:14:11:04 - 00:14:13:12

Cullen

Having never let me take a look.

00:14:13:12 - 00:14:33:19

Clark

I'm Google. It's okay if you google Val Kilmer's elbow heat. So I think it's on his left arm and it's like the size of a baseball and it's right at his elbow. And I don't know what it is. There's like speculation. Maybe it's a lipoma or like, you know, some kind of weird hematoma or something or some kind of benign tumor.

00:14:33:19 - 00:14:44:18

Clark

I don't know, but holy crap, I'm telling you, every time I watch this film. So it's like just all these little pieces that I'm like, just brings me right back home. I'm like, Oh, yeah, You know.

00:14:45:09 - 00:14:49:22

Cullen

I had never, ever seen that before. That's interesting. I didn't notice it.

00:14:50:04 - 00:14:51:04

Clark

But yeah.

00:14:51:05 - 00:14:51:22

Cullen

A little piece of trivia.

00:14:51:22 - 00:15:18:22

Clark

A little piece of trivia for you. So. So anyway, I guess you know, so. So this is just one of those movies that I feel like it's always been there. It's not you know, it isn't like a huge piece of, of, of, of inspiration for me. But, but in a way it kind of it's not is like how to say this it's an inspiration but it's not like a real flashy inspiration, you know like yeah it's not, it's, it's not flashy.

00:15:18:22 - 00:15:37:23

Clark

I just feel like Michael Mann is like this steady, steady, kind of solid, you know, director who's made a handful of really fantastic films. And it isn't to say that he doesn't have a specific style. He certainly does. But I don't know. You know, it's it's understated. Maybe maybe that's a good way to say it, is that.

00:15:37:23 - 00:15:39:09

Cullen

It's very low key.

00:15:39:09 - 00:16:00:15

Clark

It's very as far as how as far as like, how I've integrated into my cinema world and how it's become kind of part of my psyche. Yeah, it's kind of a little understated, but nonetheless important. So. So, yeah, you know, this is always, you know, if you were to say, hey, you know, the list of like, you know, top crime flicks or heist flicks or action flicks, this would be there for me.

00:16:00:23 - 00:16:25:02

Clark

And I really feel like, you know, in my mind, this is just the way that I kind of skew things. I feel like this is like a like the best crime heist B movie ever made. It's clearly not a B-movie, but I mean, it's like the best heist movie that would be like a genre flick if it didn't have any budget and didn't have Pacino and De Niro in it.

00:16:25:19 - 00:16:44:06

Clark

It's like the best that that could ever be made. You know what I mean? It's like a noir. It's like this mix of like, you know, it's it's got a lot of nore undertones. I mean, it's shot in a lot of ways. Norrish It's like L.A. Night Dark. I mean, hell, this would make a beautiful black and white film.

00:16:44:13 - 00:16:45:12

Cullen

Oh, yeah.

00:16:46:03 - 00:16:54:17

Clark

But anyway, you know, so. So. So, yeah, I just this is one of those films that just always feels like it's been there. I can't imagine it not existing, you know?

00:16:56:12 - 00:17:23:19

Cullen

No, it's. And I think the other thing, too, is that it's, you know, as I sort of mentioned the beginning, it I think in the way that you're kind of talking about how it's like he's he's very understated with his his style. Like there's a very clearly a michael Mann style. But it's kind of hard to necessarily like pinpoint because it's not like someone like Spielberg where you could say like, oh, well, you know, lots of dollies, lots of push ins, These like really fantastically, you know, Yeah.

00:17:23:21 - 00:17:45:20

Cullen

Framed shots and that are that are like blocked exceptionally and very cinematically, for lack of a better term. Man. You know, I would say again, it's sort of like very tone in the way that he he kind of like permeates his film. It's music The themes like go theme just are so, so kind of hammered.

00:17:45:22 - 00:17:46:22

Clark

There's a masculinity.

00:17:46:22 - 00:18:06:23

Cullen

Overwrought way but but a Yeah a lot of it's yeah it's like a lot of it's about, you know, the masculinity of these characters and you know, note like that's what I think is, is interesting about this movie is that it also doesn't go in any way to, to kind of like redeem it, like the characters are just kind of like lived in this world.

00:18:06:23 - 00:18:08:14

Cullen

They're not well, that's not I.

00:18:08:14 - 00:18:25:22

Clark

Want to talk I want to talk about that before we get so before we get into any more kind of detail stuff, because I feel like it's kind of an extension of like your personal experience with the film and everything. I'm curious to know to hear. And of course I'm going to share some notes, not like I'm putting you on the spot and then I'm not going to do the same.

00:18:26:05 - 00:18:42:13

Clark

But I'm curious like what? You know, when you watch this, I assume you watched it again recently for this. You know, like what's what's in your interpretation? No wrong answer. Like, what do you think Michael Mann is exploring in this film? Like what parts that stick out to you? You know, like at.

00:18:42:13 - 00:18:52:23

Cullen

Its heart, I believe that it's kind of like exploring, you know, obsession and addiction and things like that and like compulsion to.

00:18:53:04 - 00:18:53:16

Clark

Tell me right.

00:18:53:16 - 00:19:27:02

Cullen

Down to the final kind of decision that that Pacino may or De Niro makes in the film, that it's all about like he just can't let this one last thing go. Yeah and and it goes into the even when it involves relationships that it's about this like obsession with with you know, control over the relationships and and you know on the inverse, you know Pacino's wife is is obsessed with the idea of just having a normal life.

00:19:27:12 - 00:19:44:06

Cullen

She's she's like addicted to that and she just wants this this happy and that, you know, she goes off in and has an affair just to, as she says in the film, like just to have some sort of a closure with him because she just wants things to be like, you know, normal. She's dating a homicide cop.

00:19:44:07 - 00:19:44:16

Clark

Yeah.

00:19:45:12 - 00:20:01:06

Cullen

Or married, too. Yeah. And so I think that that kind of again, I think that that really goes through, you know, not necessarily in an explicitly like drug related sense because there's not really, you know, a ton of of like explicit drug use that comes up in the.

00:20:01:14 - 00:20:04:05

Clark

I have an interesting piece of trivia, though, about that.

00:20:04:12 - 00:20:14:02

Cullen

But it is but I think that it is I think it's ultimately about, you know, the downfall of obsession and addiction. Okay. To how close DeNiro gets to getting out.

00:20:14:03 - 00:20:15:15

Clark

Yeah that's interesting.

00:20:15:15 - 00:20:33:18

Cullen

And and but he just he just has to you know it's always just like the one last thing. It's the one last thing. It's the you know Yeah. Not necessarily in this one. It's not necessarily one last score that takes him down. Well, I guess it's sort of the the effect of one last score. But, um, but yeah, that's kind of how I see it.

00:20:33:20 - 00:20:55:16

Clark

Okay. Yeah. And that that's totally valid. And I absolutely there there's definitely I think there's a lot that speaks to that. I mean, Al Pacino you could certainly argue Al Pacino is the both of these characters. Al Pacino is obsessed with the Hunt, and De Niro is obsessed with applying his craft. You know, he says, like, I don't know how to do anything different.

00:20:55:16 - 00:21:15:00

Clark

This is what I'm good at. You know? Yeah, but and that's where I think good art is going to automatically. Like you're going to have a ton of different interpretations of theme when art is good. So my interpretation is totally different. And what's interesting, at least to me it's interesting, is that my interpretation has so changed as I've gotten older.

00:21:15:07 - 00:21:39:01

Clark

I think when I was your age or younger, I might have said something very similar to what you're saying now. And I, you know, be just as right as you are when I watch it now, at 46, I see something so different in this film, and I actually don't know that I either didn't feel this as strongly or I didn't kind of think about it long enough to articulate it.

00:21:39:02 - 00:21:59:20

Clark

You know, the last time I watched it a few years ago. But but what this film means to me and when I thought about this, it it really elevated my appreciation of the film just recently, like really elevated it to a level that I had not it not had not approached this level ever before, having seen it. And that's this.

00:21:59:20 - 00:22:16:17

Clark

So not to get to, you know, well, yeah, it's okay. We can get philosophical and even I wonder sometimes in these things, why not? That's what we're here to do, right? Everybody else can talk about Lyn's links and ooh, which I do want to talk to you about in this film, because I know you love wide lenses, but yeah, not Michael Mann.

00:22:16:17 - 00:22:34:17

Clark

Okay, but let me stay on track. So. So for me, you know, here's what I kind of see. It's like and I think this is really key. So you've got to Niro and he's like, Look, I live this life where it's like, I can't have any attachments. 30 seconds. If I can't, you know, I have to drop it all in 30 seconds.

00:22:34:17 - 00:22:53:11

Clark

Ah, and be out of here. Like, that's how you've got to be. And, and so you see, like he's De Niro is presented as this, like, I mean it's very like he walks into his place and there's like three plates and two cups and there's no furniture and, you know, it's just beautiful home. Like Lord knows what that home cost on the beach.

00:22:53:11 - 00:23:18:22

Clark

But it's there's no life in it. There's no life at all. And it's just like he's he's gray, gray suit, gray hair, bland. You know, there's like he's he's and he's older. I mean, he's obviously, you know, approaching 50 in this film, Right. The character. But let me get to the point, Clark. So when I see this film, what I what really stands out to me is about the relationships.

00:23:19:09 - 00:23:41:16

Clark

So if Al Pacino, in his relationship with his wife or soon to be ex wife and, you know, we have De Niro and he has sacrificed to pursue this one thing in his life, he has established his life. He has created his life in a way where he has no connections to He doesn't share his life with anybody else.

00:23:42:00 - 00:23:50:04

Clark

There's no romantic connection in his life whatsoever. And it's on purpose because he sees that as a distraction to his purpose.

00:23:50:13 - 00:23:51:10

Cullen

Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

00:23:52:06 - 00:24:31:06

Clark

Then he meets someone totally on accident, completely against his will. Right? And he falls in love, or he's falling in love with this woman against his better judgment, almost against, like, his desire, because he knows that he can't have these attachments because it will distract him from being good at his purpose. Right. And and I think this film, you know, he ultimately he decides to leave the relationship to abandon the relationship, to stick with his so-called purpose, and he ends up dying because of that.

00:24:31:19 - 00:24:43:04

Clark

Mm. And you have Pacino who also chooses to say he makes the same choice. His wife leaves him his third wife. I think that's his third marriage in their.

00:24:43:04 - 00:24:43:17

Cullen

Relationship.

00:24:43:20 - 00:24:44:00

Clark

Their.

00:24:44:00 - 00:24:44:13

Cullen

Marriage to.

00:24:44:16 - 00:24:48:14

Clark

His daughter. And I think I actually think it's not his biological daughter in.

00:24:48:14 - 00:24:49:17

Cullen

The story They bring.

00:24:49:18 - 00:25:08:18

Clark

Biological. Yeah, it's her biological, but she attempts suicide in his hotel room there. None of these characters are happy, right? In the end, it's it's not it's not like there's some victory for Pacino even, Right? It's almost.

00:25:08:18 - 00:25:09:18

Cullen

Like fact. It's fact.

00:25:09:19 - 00:25:11:21

Clark

I don't quite surprise that.

00:25:12:00 - 00:25:13:18

Cullen

That Pacino's almost.

00:25:13:18 - 00:25:14:16

Clark

Like a sad.

00:25:14:18 - 00:25:18:09

Cullen

A little bit sad for sure. These are they they justify each other.

00:25:18:09 - 00:25:35:09

Clark

They justify each other and they know each other. They know each other. They're both the same thing. And and so to me, I kind of feel like, wow, this is like a really strong statement about what happens to your soul when you refuse a call to love.

00:25:36:08 - 00:25:36:16

Cullen

Mm hmm.

00:25:37:09 - 00:25:57:10

Clark

And in my because I feel like there's, like a parallel kind of situation happen to me, I made a different choice. I had set my life up. I had designed my life very specifically. No relationships, no serious attachments. I am pursuing this one dream, and that's all I'm doing. And if I have other things, then it's going to distract me.

00:25:57:10 - 00:26:21:00

Clark

I can't have these kind of emotional attachments. They take too much time and energy. I made a different choice and I'm really happy that I did. And so obviously my own experience, my own background, my, you know, has colored my interpretation of it. But to me, this is one of the most kickass, awesome, subtle, nuanced films about that decision in life.

00:26:21:00 - 00:26:31:20

Clark

And I think we all have similar types of decisions that we have to make in our life without being over-the-top or saccharine or cheesy or, you know, So I don't know.

00:26:31:20 - 00:26:55:03

Cullen

And I think to drive that point home to two scenes or two elements, there's one moment when they're at the restaurant and dinner is the only one that's alone. He's the only one without a family. And he very clearly is seeing that. Yeah. Yeah. And the second thing is that who is the villain of the film but somebody who is like an abomination to love, who sleeps with prostitutes and murders them.

00:26:55:04 - 00:26:55:22

Cullen

Yeah.

00:26:56:07 - 00:26:58:00

Clark

Wayne Groh is really.

00:26:58:00 - 00:27:08:10

Cullen

Yeah. He's the opposite end of of even like if you were to take, you know the coin that is De Niro Pacino in those two and they're at the Wayne.

00:27:08:10 - 00:27:09:05

Clark

Grosser the.

00:27:09:05 - 00:27:11:21

Cullen

Same thing and Winegrowers is kind of the antithesis.

00:27:11:21 - 00:27:13:04

Clark

Of the antithesis of that. Yeah.

00:27:13:22 - 00:27:45:00

Cullen

So no, I think that yeah, I think that that's definitely a that's totally a really neat way to and I think that that in line with that there's there's a direct kind of reference to that as well which is just about the dream about drowning and not having time. And it's not that you know, they don't really say it explicitly, but it's not that he doesn't have time to go off and, you know, love the fruits of his labor and sitting on a beach in New Zealand and, you know, relaxing for the rest of his life, it's very clearly an allusion to love and relationships and family.

00:27:45:11 - 00:28:09:20

Cullen

And because much like the next thing Pacino says is that, well, he's he's he's also failing at that. He's on the downward slope of a you know, his third third marriage. Yeah yeah. And it keeps also coming to the point that that you know, it is totally a distraction that that it is the the daughter Natalie Portman's character attempting suicide that that nearly causes him to let.

00:28:10:01 - 00:28:20:14

Cullen

Yeah. De Niro escape totally. Um and so I think that there's yeah I think that that's a really neat way to look at the film and it definitely definitely I don't think is is unintentional.

00:28:20:18 - 00:28:25:19

Clark

No I don't no, no no I don't think it is. I mean there's because it's way too strong of a film. Michael Mann is way too.

00:28:26:13 - 00:28:27:05

Cullen

Specific.

00:28:27:05 - 00:28:47:10

Clark

Of it. He's much too good a filmmaker. That's not an accident. But we each pick out, you know, we each kind of emphasize different aspects of a good film. When the themes are reached in the filmmaking is nuanced. There's enough room there that we can focus on because obsession is a part of that, right? You're not. You're just as valid as me because obsession is part of that.

00:28:47:10 - 00:29:12:04

Clark

Obsession is obsession with whatever whatever ambition you have. We have to make decisions. Like obsession is part of that. That obsession is a part of ambition, right. And a pursuit of your ambition. So this is one of the best films to me that illustrates in a mature way that decision that we all have to make at at least some point and probably.

00:29:12:16 - 00:29:14:16

Cullen

And the melancholic consequences too.

00:29:14:16 - 00:29:15:00

Clark

Yeah.

00:29:15:09 - 00:29:21:06

Cullen

That this movie, every single moment, the tone is so melancholic because it's this, it's, it's the feeling of.

00:29:21:06 - 00:29:22:18

Clark

It's a profound exercise. You know, I.

00:29:22:18 - 00:29:38:06

Cullen

Think I think that the like if I had to I don't think this is very vulgar, but if I had to kind of describe the feeling of this film. Yeah, it's, it's like after like an unfulfilling, you know, one night stand or something like that. Yeah, right. Like, like it's this feeling.

00:29:38:06 - 00:29:38:23

Clark

Of just way.

00:29:39:19 - 00:29:49:09

Cullen

Just like this, this kind of, like, emptiness. You feel this melancholic thing of, like, longing for something, you know, perhaps the one night stands or the robberies in the context of the film, but. Well, that.

00:29:49:09 - 00:29:52:04

Clark

You can never be fulfilled with the superficial or that.

00:29:52:04 - 00:30:15:19

Cullen

Yeah, there's this dissatisfaction. Yeah, I think that related to that. One thing I do want to briefly talk about too, is what is lacking from the films. This is inspired. Oh, and so so I think that um, you know, a film that very, very clearly and Nolan has said to himself that that, that he'd inspired is The Dark Knight.

00:30:15:19 - 00:30:16:15

Clark

Yeah. Yes.

00:30:17:03 - 00:30:20:16

Cullen

You know, The Dark Knight is, is kind of wears heat on its shoulder.

00:30:20:22 - 00:30:32:19

Clark

It's not especially when you say it like it might not you know, when you watch The Dark Knight, it might not be something that, you know, you necessarily immediately connect. But the instant you say that to somebody, if they've seen both films, you're like, Ah.

00:30:33:04 - 00:30:39:15

Cullen

Yeah. And I mean, even the the Van Zandt in In the Heat is the same at the.

00:30:39:15 - 00:30:41:05

Clark

Bank in the beginning. Right?

00:30:41:15 - 00:30:52:12

Cullen

So I, I know this is somewhat controversial to say I'm not a huge Dark Knight fan. So I, I think that, you know I don't I don't dislike it, but.

00:30:52:12 - 00:31:09:21

Clark

I have a happy memory of that. I have a happy memory of just for one reason. I'm not a big fan of this film from from like a like a purely cinematic reason. But I do have a big soft spot because this was one of the first dates that I think I ever went with my current wife at.

00:31:09:21 - 00:31:29:17

Clark

Oh, there you go. And I remember we we went to see it and we filled up like a little plastic water bottle with Southern with Southern Comfort and like, sipped on it in the movie theater together. And so it was like one of our first dates that we kind of got a little tipsy, you know? And so I have I have warm feelings of this film for that reason.

00:31:29:17 - 00:31:50:18

Cullen

And I mean, I had I used to I loved the movie when it came out. I was I was a big, dark Knight fan. But I think as I as I rewatched it over the years, the editing is for sharing it with Heat. It. I think that that's the thing is that he it it it is on the surface level trying to do kind of what he does of this like crime saga about a city of course.

00:31:50:18 - 00:32:10:08

Cullen

And the Dark Knight is a fictional city, but establishing this like tonal crime saga. But it's missing all of that that deeper context that makes the that that enriches the character that just you know, of course, there's like elements of romance in the dark night of him and Rachel and then Rachel's killed. Spoilers for a 14 year old.

00:32:10:11 - 00:32:18:20

Cullen

Yeah, but but but what I think it's lacking is that then that tone and that theme permeating like every single.

00:32:18:22 - 00:32:19:18

Clark

Yeah yeah.

00:32:20:08 - 00:32:37:08

Cullen

And I think also on a superficial level that that you look at the comparison between, you know, the bank scene, the bank robbery scene at the beginning of the dark night, it's like probably the most famous scene in the movie. I have a lot of issues with it because you watch it and you go, Why are these people talking the whole time?

00:32:37:12 - 00:32:56:21

Cullen

I think they're like going back and forth about like, Well, why did he wear the makeup? Why did they go on the Joker? You know? Oh, well, I was hired from this guy. There's so much exposition and it's like it's like exposition, exposition exhibition. Whereas you compare that to, you know, either of the big robbery set pieces. The first one I would more aptly compare it to, even though they're both set, the second one set in the bank.

00:32:56:21 - 00:33:05:13

Cullen

But, you know, it opens the movie on this big robbery. Yeah, they are completely silent. In fact, the one character they start trying to have a conversation is told promptly to shut up.

00:33:05:13 - 00:33:05:20

Clark

Yeah.

00:33:06:20 - 00:33:12:19

Cullen

And so I think that it's just one of those things where it's like it and I don't think that Christopher Nolan is an untalented filmmaker.

00:33:12:19 - 00:33:13:21

Clark

By any means. Sure.

00:33:14:04 - 00:33:42:17

Cullen

You know, he's he's Dunkirk was great. Something going for him considering his box office poll and what he's able to do but I think it kind of shows the difference between someone who can, you know, make a really entertaining big blockbuster versus somebody who can like elevate Blockbuster to to what I think is like, you know, a nearing a level of like arthouse, almost like nearing a level of like you're exploring this aspect of like human condition and humor.

00:33:42:19 - 00:33:46:04

Clark

We say it that that that that approach is art.

00:33:46:17 - 00:34:09:01

Cullen

Yes. There you go. Yeah. And so this that's what I think is so interesting. And I think that that I'm not saying this necessarily to knock on The Dark Knight, to take that down, but rather to highlight how good of a director man is in that way and how good of a writer man is. Um, I think that he is just so fantastic, especially he's just on his A-game and you know, the performances too.

00:34:09:01 - 00:34:11:03

Cullen

Um, I guess we can get into that a little bit, too.

00:34:11:03 - 00:34:20:23

Clark

Well, can I say one last thing I want to say one last thing, because I think, you know, we talked about some themes and collateral, I think came out in Collateral come out just a couple of years after this.

00:34:21:22 - 00:34:24:02

Cullen

Collateral was 2005.

00:34:24:03 - 00:34:25:09

Clark

Oh, wow. So a decade.

00:34:25:12 - 00:34:29:00

Cullen

Ten years. Okay. Let me let me actually make collateral was 2004.

00:34:29:04 - 00:34:41:12

Clark

Okay. So so quite quite a bit afterwards because I think, yeah, he had like Ali and like Muhammad Ali with Will Smith and Mate and Miami Vice. Oh, that's right. He had Miami Vice with Colin and Jamie Foxx's right.

00:34:41:12 - 00:34:42:07

Cullen

And The Insider.

00:34:42:07 - 00:35:16:11

Clark

And Oh, ooh, and the Insider. Just not to get too far. I'm going to digress all kinds of places, but The insider is fantastic. I think it's at least on par with this film. It is a really tremendous film if you haven't seen it. But I would just one of the thing that I want to because we talked about personal experience and I forgot to mention this and it's also such a recurring theme from For Man and his films and some of them, the way he shoots L.A. How much Los Angeles is a character in this film and how beautiful Los Angeles at night in this film.

00:35:18:02 - 00:35:30:23

Clark

And he does such a good job shooting L.A. and Collateral as well. And of course, in that film he shoots he was it get maybe we can get to some of this. But he is a pioneer on digital. He shot a lot of the night stuff on the Viper.

00:35:31:17 - 00:35:33:03

Cullen

Really early, the digital, really.

00:35:33:03 - 00:35:55:22

Clark

Early digital camera to get that really high night light sensitivity. But that actually is something that really stands out to me. I think heat is kind of one of those films and Pulp Fiction is actually falls in line with this, too. So there's a reason why these are kind of important to me when I was younger. They're part of this mythology izing of Los Angeles.

00:35:55:22 - 00:36:09:05

Clark

To me, I think it's shot so beautifully and it's not that every place they shoot is like technically pretty. Like they shoot in some pretty nasty rundown areas, right? Yeah, in L.A..

00:36:09:22 - 00:36:14:01

Cullen

But in fact, very little of this movie is in like a, you know, scenic part of the.

00:36:14:01 - 00:36:27:22

Clark

Quote unquote, scenic part of L.A. But I don't know, it's just like I like You would talk about the vibe, right? The vibe. It's it's everything together with Los Angeles so prominent, it's just like, whoa, that place is mythic, you know?

00:36:28:06 - 00:36:45:20

Cullen

And sometimes I think that's the thing about shooting cities that I think, you know, not only specifically to L.A., but just Michael Mann understands, is that oftentimes the best way to get a vibe of the city or to get a feel for a city is not necessarily to go to, like the most scenic and beautiful or most touristy spots, but it.

00:36:45:20 - 00:36:46:08

Clark

Is to just.

00:36:46:11 - 00:36:58:01

Cullen

You know, I whenever I'm around the world in anywhere, you know, I was in Venice and I specifically avoided all big tourist like the California once, Venice, Italy.

00:36:58:01 - 00:37:00:23

Clark

Okay, sorry. Because we were talking about L.A. so I just, you know. Yeah.

00:37:01:12 - 00:37:06:07

Cullen

But it, but like, you know, I will go to the, like, most local kind of, you know.

00:37:06:09 - 00:37:06:17

Clark

Yeah.

00:37:07:06 - 00:37:26:02

Cullen

Not touristy places. It's the same thing with, with Toronto. Like, I think that, you know, whenever I'm recommending on people things to do in Toronto, the people that are coming here, you know, I try to sort of say like just walk like it's a very walkable city, but just, you know, walk around. Don't you don't have to necessarily go to all of the the most famous sightseeing to do lists.

00:37:26:02 - 00:37:43:11

Cullen

And it can be really nice, too. And I think my man really understands that is that like the feel of a city isn't necessarily about it's icons but rather like, you know what is it like to just walk down a street at night in this place or drive down a highway? Um, he's got that really good, kind of.

00:37:43:11 - 00:37:51:09

Cullen

And especially with just the way that the and we'll get into this later on but Elliott Gould those score goes along so good So.

00:37:51:13 - 00:37:51:23

Clark

It's sort.

00:37:52:09 - 00:38:06:10

Cullen

Of like you know there's those that that one my favorite moment of the score of this movie it's so subtle is when they're driving the van to the the place that they're going to drill through the door. Okay. Their second heist. Yeah.

00:38:06:10 - 00:38:07:12

Clark

The one they abandon.

00:38:07:20 - 00:38:35:18

Cullen

Yes. Yeah. And it's just kind of this like eerie like a long storyboard. Yeah. And it and it just and it's just like probably 22nd shot of this van driving down the road and it's on it. The shots from a helicopter following it. And I think that it's it's so, you know, it just it makes you feel like you're there much more than I think, showing, you know, Griffith Park or the Hollywood sign.

00:38:35:18 - 00:38:38:04

Clark

Or Yeah yeah all that clichéd stuff.

00:38:38:18 - 00:38:40:06

Cullen

Bank of America building or something. Yeah.

00:38:40:06 - 00:38:56:08

Clark

But man is so good at that, you know, And I even had to look up because he shoots L.A. with so much love. And I love like a like a local because his he doesn't shoot all those tourist spots. And I had to double check. I was like where's man from. He's actually born and raised in or at least born in Chicago.

00:38:56:16 - 00:39:24:07

Clark

But I think about the way he shoots Miami in in Miami Vice the way he shoots L.A. in this film and Heat and in Collateral. Yeah. There's just like, you know, and, you know, we talk about I think we've mentioned this a few times now, but going all the way back to our roots with Herzog. And, you know, Herzog is so good at shooting landscapes that are representative of some kind of aspect of the human condition.

00:39:24:19 - 00:39:28:15

Clark

That and Herzog doesn't do that in urban environments very often.

00:39:28:19 - 00:39:29:20

Cullen

Very frequently in.

00:39:29:20 - 00:39:54:19

Clark

Very free, almost always it's natural landscapes is kind of what he's using. But I feel like that man is almost like that way to cities, that they really become an integral part. And he kind of takes and highlights the pieces of the city that he wants to take in highlight to kind of, you know, fit into this vibe that he's really going for in whatever particular film he's shooting.

00:39:54:19 - 00:40:04:21

Clark

Obviously, like, you know, the vibe he gets from Miami and Miami Vice is radically different than L.A. here, and he but I just think that it's exceptional. But that I.

00:40:04:21 - 00:40:10:01

Cullen

Think I think another it's just to kind of, I guess, harp on Herzog for a second.

00:40:10:01 - 00:40:11:01

Clark

Yeah yeah he's.

00:40:11:03 - 00:40:25:13

Cullen

That it's not I wouldn't really describe it as as like realistic No it's just more like it's like goes back to the kind of truth versus fact kind of thing where it's like it's the truth about L.A., not the factual.

00:40:25:19 - 00:40:26:04

Clark

Right.

00:40:26:04 - 00:40:27:23

Cullen

Day to day. Yeah. Street life of.

00:40:27:23 - 00:40:29:08

Clark

L.A. It's the emotional.

00:40:29:16 - 00:40:32:03

Cullen

It's the emotional truth and the authentic like.

00:40:32:04 - 00:40:32:12

Clark

Yeah.

00:40:32:14 - 00:40:38:04

Cullen

Feeling so much more than it is. You know, again, you're not you're not just otherwise it would just be them sitting in traffic.

00:40:38:04 - 00:40:50:00

Clark

All day and remind me because I want to go back. You know, you're making this comparison to The Dark Knight, which I think is an interesting comparison. I want to take it just a step. Do you remember where did they shoot? What Where was the city footage shot for the.

00:40:50:03 - 00:40:52:02

Cullen

Dash Chicago primary?

00:40:52:02 - 00:41:00:00

Clark

It was it shot in Chicago. And obviously they're trying to represent a fake place, Gotham. But Gotham's kind of New York. Sort of isn't.

00:41:00:01 - 00:41:00:12

Cullen

Yeah, it's.

00:41:00:23 - 00:41:01:19

Clark

Of Manhattan.

00:41:01:19 - 00:41:03:23

Cullen

Northeast, big northeast.

00:41:03:23 - 00:41:11:02

Clark

Like, because I don't know much about comic book stuff, but Gotham is really kind of just New York City, right, isn't it?

00:41:11:11 - 00:41:25:08

Cullen

It's I think I don't know much about comic books either, but I my understanding is that New Gotham is supposed to be New York City at night and Metropolis, where Superman is in New York City during the day. Oh, I forgot. There's Metropolis. Them in a different city.

00:41:25:08 - 00:41:28:03

Clark

Are those two different comic book worlds, though, right? Like, Well, no, no.

00:41:28:04 - 00:41:30:09

Cullen

That's in Batman. Are they exist in the city.

00:41:30:09 - 00:41:32:14

Clark

Oh, they're in the same universe. Okay. All right.

00:41:33:00 - 00:41:36:19

Cullen

So I think that that's it. It's supposed to be like Gotham is New York at night and.

00:41:36:19 - 00:41:37:11

Clark

Like, parallel.

00:41:37:12 - 00:41:38:21

Cullen

Metropolis is. But it is.

00:41:39:05 - 00:41:57:20

Clark

But again, but I guess that's less important. But what I was going to try to say is that at least my recollection, I mean, it's like you look at how differently those cities are shot. And I just, you know, I don't know. I just don't get, you know, the same kind of like feeling from how those cityscapes are shot in that.

00:41:57:20 - 00:42:21:08

Clark

And The Dark Knight doesn't have the same story impact to me as how Los Angeles has shot in, he and I and an example and it's kind of interesting, too, is this story kind of encases a little piece of trivia to probably most people know, but there's that really beautiful scene where where oh, gosh darn it. I've got to like, I'm having a hard time with the characters.

00:42:21:08 - 00:42:22:17

Clark

It's Neal, right? Is it.

00:42:23:09 - 00:42:23:14

Cullen

Is.

00:42:24:06 - 00:42:32:19

Clark

In your or Neal's like, you know, the relationship blooming with Edie and they're out overlooking Los Angeles and.

00:42:32:21 - 00:42:35:11

Cullen

Yeah, I think it's shot on a I think it's shot on a green screen.

00:42:35:11 - 00:42:49:01

Clark

So that was shot on a green screen. But of course, all of the footage of Los Angeles is real. I mean, they really shot it and then they created a plate and then, you know, and then they put them green screen. And this, of course, is part of like the the issues with light sensitivity and dynamic range of a film camera.

00:42:49:01 - 00:42:52:09

Clark

Yeah. You know. Yeah. So that's why he did that. It's just a.

00:42:52:09 - 00:42:53:06

Cullen

Text. It looks good.

00:42:53:06 - 00:43:11:06

Clark

Still looks good actually. I mean, yeah, it still looks really good, but I just feel like the way Los Angeles is used as a character in this film, it's just, you know, that's another difference, I think, between the storytelling of Michael Mann in Heat versus Dark Knight, which is.

00:43:11:06 - 00:43:15:18

Cullen

Weird. I kind of I also wanted to add, because I think I know we're sort of going on a little bit of a tangent.

00:43:15:18 - 00:43:16:14

Clark

Just going everywhere.

00:43:17:03 - 00:43:37:07

Cullen

For some reason. Yeah. But that it also to me points again to to perhaps the shortcomings more of The Dark Knight than it does of, of like fictional film or because you think about Burton's Batman's Gotham is totally a character in those there's there's oh very.

00:43:37:09 - 00:43:38:03

Clark

Stylish.

00:43:38:03 - 00:43:42:20

Cullen

Characterization of Gotham and even in the new Batman film that just came out.

00:43:43:00 - 00:43:44:01

Clark

Which I haven't seen that.

00:43:44:08 - 00:43:49:21

Cullen

Which I actually I actually enjoy, I would say that I really, really like the first two thirds in the last third I was okay with.

00:43:50:00 - 00:43:51:06

Clark

Yeah, I'll have to watch.

00:43:51:06 - 00:43:52:05

Cullen

Maybe we'll do an episode on.

00:43:52:09 - 00:43:56:02

Clark

I think it's free to watch on like it's streaming.

00:43:56:02 - 00:44:13:22

Cullen

So I think Yeah, yeah. But, but even even that it really I think one of the really smart things that Matt Reeves did who's the director is he it because it's a new Batman world is new Batman and all that you got to establish one stuff is that he spends like the first like 15 minutes building up the most.

00:44:13:22 - 00:44:36:10

Cullen

I want to say that the most gothic of of like Gotham City ever And again, I'm not a big superhero guy. I don't really I'm not really into comic books and things like that. And but I really appreciated the the like the craftsmanship that went into establishing what this city feels like. And it gives it so much character and it really kind of it does it sort of, you know, much like Michael lang makes makes L.A.

00:44:36:14 - 00:44:58:19

Cullen

A character, it makes Gotham a character in that which is important. Yeah. Which is it's odd that that you don't really feel I don't feel it either in The Dark Knight Now, considering how influenced it is by Heat and how open Nolan is about that influence, because no one has done many interviews where he specifically cited Heat as, as like the big like he wanted to do heat in Gotham City, essentially.

00:44:58:19 - 00:45:14:11

Cullen

Yeah. So I think it's I think it's interesting. And again, no knocking on you know, I'm not from Nolan, but I think that perhaps that just shows that maybe maybe his strong suit suite is in more the like the high dimensional sci fi stuff than it is in this kind of particular style.

00:45:14:16 - 00:45:31:14

Clark

Right. Well, you know, and boy, we could go I mean, there's so much we could say about this film, but I want to make sure that not to not to say that we can't do any more of these fun comic book movie comparisons. But I do want to talk about something that I feel like is so integral to this film and its success.

00:45:31:19 - 00:46:01:05

Clark

And that's the performances. Yes. Yeah. Because holy crap, right? I mean, you know, like I was saying before, I remember such a huge part of the marketing campaign for this film was, you know, De Niro, Pacino, together, da da, da, you know, And we've got so many wonderful actors and so many fantastic performances in this. And it's it's just you had actually shown me, so I hadn't seen it until just before our recording here.

00:46:01:12 - 00:46:23:18

Clark

You showed me like a little snippet of so to give some background. So Michael Mann been working on this project for a long time. He actually wrote the first draft in 79 and he turned it, I think, into it was shot once in not in identical form, but it was shot once as a TV pilot. So this was potentially going to be television series that when it was.

00:46:23:18 - 00:46:26:07

Cullen

90 minutes, I think it was the TV pilot.

00:46:26:07 - 00:46:54:20

Clark

Yeah. And so I don't think I don't know how much of that survives. But you did point me to the diner scene. Well, of course, in Heat, it's De Niro and Pacino, and in the television pilot, it's two totally different actors, of course. And I'm like, wow, I mean, talk about it. Talk about mind blowing. I mean, especially if you're if you're a student of acting or directing and you want to see how much a scene can be changed.

00:46:55:20 - 00:46:57:02

Cullen

Is the dialog is identical.

00:46:57:02 - 00:46:58:06

Clark

By the performance.

00:46:58:14 - 00:47:00:01

Cullen

Yeah, it's everything is identical.

00:47:00:02 - 00:47:04:09

Clark

Talk about mind blowing. Talk about mind blowing.

00:47:05:07 - 00:47:13:06

Cullen

You take you take what is a not great scene in the TV show to one of the iconic scenes of the movie.

00:47:13:06 - 00:47:13:15

Clark

Yeah.

00:47:14:00 - 00:47:16:18

Cullen

Because one of the iconic scenes of a very iconic.

00:47:16:18 - 00:47:22:20

Clark

Well and what it highlights what it highlights to me is how absolutely vital subtext is.

00:47:23:03 - 00:47:23:14

Cullen

Yes.

00:47:23:20 - 00:47:40:01

Clark

Yeah. This is a really wonderful example about how an actor brings in can can bring in. So much subtext, so much gravitas, so much story in between. Every word. In between every line.

00:47:40:12 - 00:48:00:00

Cullen

Yeah. Because the simple like look yeah you can, you can just, you know, I think that De Niro and Pacino in that moment say more with their eyes and their body language than than they have in the TV show. But I think the other thing, too, is that you can, by the way, get it. I think I think it is readily available on DVD or something.

00:48:00:00 - 00:48:02:12

Cullen

Oh, is it release it as a TV movie.

00:48:02:13 - 00:48:05:03

Clark

As a TV movie. Okay. So there you go. Yeah, you could.

00:48:05:06 - 00:48:28:11

Cullen

But I think that it also it showed like you can see, you know, how important cinematographer Fee is, You know, the shoot, the scene, the TV show scene is shot very flat. It's it's just kind of like to, you know, small budget which is a little similar to what it is in heat. But I, I think what I kind of want to stress is that it's not even the amount of money in the heat scene that makes it look good.

00:48:28:11 - 00:48:47:21

Cullen

It's just the artistry. You know, you could you could very easily, except for the fact that heat is shot on anamorphic and, you know, the TV shows, spherical and anamorphic, is typically more expensive. You could make those look very similar on similar budgets, not including the actors fees. I think.

00:48:48:00 - 00:48:49:11

Clark

That aspect ratio.

00:48:49:13 - 00:49:21:15

Cullen

Is expensive aspect, but that's what I mean. Is that like that if you were to just, you know as I think the pilot was shot in like 19 days, so they didn't have a lot of time versus the film was shot over 107. Yeah. But it just kind of goes to show you how how like, you know and I know we're we're talking about performances but beyond just the performances that that putting a little bit of of of thought and work and you know just that extra thing like these little tiny changes that you make can can change a scene so fundamentally.

00:49:22:04 - 00:49:34:04

Cullen

But I do you know, I think that De Niro is is like so incredible in this movie. De Niro's just Pacino is off the rails and it's really, really fun.

00:49:34:04 - 00:49:56:21

Clark

Like you talking about the segments. I want to talk to you about that for a second because I think, you know, I so this is definitely dear I mean, like Pacino has always been, you know, an interesting actor. I love him. I love him. By the way, subtle is not often a word that you would use to describe Pacino's acting from like, you know, 85 on, right?

00:49:56:22 - 00:50:04:10

Cullen

Yes. Yeah. Which is weird because prior to that, like The Godfather, he isn't the first godfather. He's pretty sanely, low key, insanely subtle.

00:50:04:12 - 00:50:27:05

Clark

But in this film, I forgot how many great, like one liners that Pacino has where he just, like, explodes into, like, you know, like caricature land. But somehow it works. Like, somehow now, I mean, I do have to admit, like, there's a few times I kind of snickered, you know, it kind of took me a little bit out of the film.

00:50:27:05 - 00:50:31:00

Clark

And I kinda, you know, in my own mind, I'm like, Oh, what a.

00:50:31:00 - 00:50:31:11

Cullen

Great.

00:50:33:05 - 00:50:54:19

Clark

Like, I'm just like, oh my gosh, oh, my gosh. But it's hey, but you can't deny it's it's entertaining. It's funny, it's definitely colorful and, you know? I mean, I guess you could definitely defend it. You know, in most of these instances. I mean, he at least he's consistent. It's it's it's.

00:50:54:19 - 00:51:03:20

Cullen

Fairly I think. Yeah, I think I honestly think it works. It works. It's it's I think if it was anybody else to do that. No, would not.

00:51:03:21 - 00:51:04:09

Clark

It would not.

00:51:04:09 - 00:51:20:08

Cullen

I think the fact that it's Pacino and and he you know of course which you know is you know just the master easy to Yeah you know he does the the La Adler Ali Strasberg and who I think he he runs that school now or.

00:51:20:11 - 00:51:21:00

Clark

Oh I don't know the.

00:51:21:00 - 00:51:22:01

Cullen

Vice chair or something.

00:51:22:01 - 00:51:22:12

Clark

I can't.

00:51:22:12 - 00:51:35:10

Cullen

Yeah but very famous acting school in New York but um, and I just think it's, I think I always think it's, you know, I would rather that than someone just doing nothing with a character and just reading what are the other.

00:51:35:10 - 00:51:58:13

Clark

Reasons I think it works is because so imagine imagine if you if Pacino played it as straight and subtle as De Niro. Oh, now you've got. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like you have to have a contrast. I feel like, honestly, if Pacino wouldn't have done this, if he would have played it so low key and kind of so focused and straight, I feel like there wouldn't be enough contrast between the two characters.

00:51:58:13 - 00:52:15:14

Clark

There wouldn't be any any color between them. So, you know, but it is kind of funky. I do. So that interesting piece of trivia I do remember reading, I can't it's relatively recent that Pacino was being interviewed and gosh, I don't know if it was for print or if it was, you know, in person and then written down.

00:52:15:14 - 01:16:31:08

Clark

I'd have to go back and look. But I.

Episode - 056 - Fat City

Clark

Hey, everybody. Welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I am Clark Coffey. And with me, as always, is my fantastic co-host, Cullen McFater. What's up, Cullen?

00:00:25:00 - 00:00:34:09

Cullen

Not much. I'm happy to be back. It's been a while. I don't think it will show quite how much time it has been, because, of course, we've been releasing period right? The summer.

00:00:34:09 - 00:00:37:01

Clark

But yeah, we've been gone for a living in.

00:00:37:06 - 00:00:38:17

Cullen

Almost, I think, over four months.

00:00:39:12 - 00:01:18:09

Clark

And so and so that that's why we're so rusty, everybody. So if you could just you could tell, you could tell we're rusty. I probably introduce the podcast in a totally different way than I used to, although, hey, that's nothing wrong with that variety spice of life. But yeah, this is episode 56, and although it's come just a couple of weeks after we've released episode 55, for us, it's been like Collins said, about four months since we've recorded an episode, so I'm super psyched to be back in the chair here with the microphone in front of my face with you virtually in front of me to discuss your pick this time around, which is 1970

00:01:18:09 - 00:01:39:18

Clark

Twos Fat City directed by John Houston. So this is a film I'd never seen, so that's always like an extra special fun thing for me. Obviously, like being introduced to films I hadn't seen. Now I'm surprised I hadn't seen it. Honestly, I'm really surprised that I hadn't seen this film yet, but I had not. There are, believe it or not, films out there that I have not yet seen.

00:01:39:18 - 00:01:50:16

Clark

I know it's crazy, but how about let's jump in and talk about kind of what propelled, you know, why did you choose this film and kind of just we'll go from there?

00:01:51:03 - 00:01:56:18

Cullen

Well, I think it's it's I think this is actually the first movie we've done that neither of us had seen.

00:01:57:15 - 00:01:58:22

Clark

Wait, no, you hadn't seen.

00:01:59:01 - 00:02:00:09

Cullen

I hadn't seen this either, so.

00:02:00:10 - 00:02:00:20

Clark

Okay.

00:02:00:20 - 00:02:14:23

Cullen

Okay. The reason that I chose it was I actually I mean, I was kind of curious to see how we would talk about something, both of us having seen it for the first time. Because, again, I think this is the first one that neither other than our Herzog days.

00:02:15:12 - 00:02:16:06

Clark

Right, right, right.

00:02:16:12 - 00:02:17:16

Cullen

You know, I don't think either way.

00:02:17:16 - 00:02:19:00

Clark

Back then, way back in the day.

00:02:19:00 - 00:02:35:04

Cullen

When we had family reunions and things like that. Yeah. But I was I was just really, you know, I as I've talked about, I think we spoke pretty much at length about Connie Hall, our Butch Cassidy episode.

00:02:35:05 - 00:02:35:16

Clark

And yeah.

00:02:35:22 - 00:03:05:20

Cullen

I'm sure that I mentioned that he's my favorite cinematographer and definitely the one that is the most like has inspired me the most through through my career. Yeah. Yeah. Before that as well. And so I was listening the other day, a few weeks ago to him talking about, you know, there's like all these really long form two and a half hour interviews with Connie Hall online that are really, really fascinating to listen to some that he talks just about his life and growing up and some talk some more about his work.

00:03:06:20 - 00:03:26:17

Cullen

And he mentioned doing Fat City. And, you know, I really like John Huston. I love Connie Hall. You know, my like Jeff Bridges. And so I also was kind of surprised that I'd never seen this. And not only that, I sort of somewhat have like not a personal connection in the sense that someone I know worked on this or that.

00:03:27:11 - 00:03:39:08

Cullen

But my my dad's dad, my grandfather, he was a pretty like, well-to-do boxer here in Canada. He was the Canadian boxing champion back in the Wow fifties. So.

00:03:39:23 - 00:03:44:01

Clark

Now, did you ever did you get did you know your grandfather personally like the.

00:03:44:09 - 00:03:49:14

Cullen

Yeah, he actually just passed away in 2011. So. So I knew him quite well.

00:03:50:03 - 00:03:54:00

Clark

And did he ever regale you with with boxing stories?

00:03:54:00 - 00:04:13:09

Cullen

Oh, yes. Yeah, a lot of them. And so, you know, just the funny thing and we'll get into this more in, you know, in the plot of the film, but the funny thing, too, is that there's there's moments in this movie that made me really laugh because, you know, for example, when you know, someone comes out of a fight and they're like, did I win?

00:04:13:18 - 00:04:20:03

Cullen

And, you know, he used to tell me these stories about that. He would wake up the next morning and have to ask his manager, like, you know, who won?

00:04:20:14 - 00:04:21:11

Clark

Oh, my gosh.

00:04:21:11 - 00:04:32:01

Cullen

Your head is so. And I think it's also, you know, perhaps on a more more serious note, too, that it really showed like the what the devastation it does to your body.

00:04:32:06 - 00:04:32:15

Clark

Yeah.

00:04:33:00 - 00:04:41:05

Cullen

You know, by the end of his life and my grandfather's life, he had a lot of memory issues and was, you know, pretty far to dementia, like concussions.

00:04:41:05 - 00:04:41:17

Clark

Syndrome.

00:04:41:17 - 00:04:49:15

Cullen

Or. Yeah. And you can really see in this, I think that it really kind of takes the like it's not like it's nothing like.

00:04:50:00 - 00:04:52:15

Clark

It's not glamorous this is where it not. Yeah.

00:04:52:16 - 00:05:00:10

Cullen

Yeah. A coming of age not coming of age, but like an underdog story about this guy who's really great boxer and he goes out and wins, like in this.

00:05:00:10 - 00:05:01:09

Clark

This is not rocky.

00:05:01:10 - 00:05:27:23

Cullen

Yeah, you're. You're kind of just watching your main characters. Like, if they're not losing, they're nearly losing. Yeah. No grand victory in this where everyone runs on to the ring and cheers at the end and he kisses the girl like. Yeah. And that also said that there's not really one main character here. I mean you've got Stacy Keach who plays the lead in in a way, you're right, Billy Tully.

00:05:28:23 - 00:05:34:21

Cullen

But you've also got kind of, you know, the movie kind of splits itself between him as Yeah, for.

00:05:34:21 - 00:05:52:12

Clark

Example, I would definitely call this an ensemble film for sure. Well, I want to. Let's go back to so your first time watching it, you know, and like we usually like to do here on these episodes, kind of start off with our kind of, you know, personal reaction to our our viewing of the film, especially if it's if it's the first time.

00:05:52:19 - 00:06:02:06

Clark

So kind of what was, you know, being a fan of Connie. Liking Houston, knowing Bridges, of course. And this is like one of his first Maybe it's your second.

00:06:02:11 - 00:06:02:20

Cullen

Major.

00:06:02:20 - 00:06:19:17

Clark

Movie. Yeah, major film role. He's so young. It almost like blue. Like I'm so used to seeing him. You know, so much older. And I'm a fan of his work, too. But he's been around for, I mean, my entire life since, like, before my life. And and he's been making so many films and been in so many things.

00:06:19:17 - 00:06:24:12

Clark

I was almost like taken aback when I saw it. I was like, wait, is this like Tron when they like CGI?

00:06:24:18 - 00:06:25:13

Cullen

It did, Yeah.

00:06:25:19 - 00:06:35:13

Clark

It's like, Oh, he looks like, Yeah, exactly. And that. And then I looked at up and he's only like 20, 21 years old here. But yeah. Tell me about so what, what was your experience watching the film then?

00:06:36:08 - 00:06:57:02

Cullen

No, I loved it. I mean, this is this is one of those movies that really I mean, we've said this so many times, and it's no surprise. It's not like we're going to pick movies that we don't like, but we should. I think it's also to be fair, though, it's rare to see and not rare. I would I shouldn't say it's rare, but it's it's always nice to see a new movie that and I don't mean new as in contemporary but yeah but you never seen before.

00:06:57:07 - 00:07:04:06

Cullen

Yeah. And and really connect to it and relate to it. And not only that, but just, you know that it's like a damn good movie.

00:07:04:13 - 00:07:04:20

Clark

Yeah.

00:07:04:20 - 00:07:11:10

Cullen

Yeah. And, you know, so I just like, I like how pragmatic John Huston is with his direction.

00:07:11:20 - 00:07:14:13

Clark

Yeah. You know, it's almost like, matter of fact.

00:07:14:13 - 00:07:29:23

Cullen

Like, Yeah. And it's like, if he's, if he needs to show something, he shows like, you know, someone's talking, he cuts to them. If there's an action, he cuts to it. Right. And it, there's, there's no flair on any of his stuff. And I think that that works really well with Connie Hall. Again, we'll get into the details of that later.

00:07:29:23 - 00:07:52:19

Cullen

But no, I think that just the the the overall feel of the movie, how it's just kind of this you know, it's not depressing. It's not like dower. It's just very almost in a similar way to The Deer Hunter, where we talked about how it's like you're introduced to this Pennsylvania mining town and it's like drab and cold.

00:07:52:19 - 00:08:10:07

Cullen

But there's almost this strange, like Renaissance romanticization that's not done by the film. But perhaps just looking back on these times, you know, it's, it's, it's, it takes place this film in like this kind of Skid Row rough area of Stockton, California, which as you said, is, you know.

00:08:11:00 - 00:08:38:03

Clark

I've given since many, many, many times. And it is a perfect setting. Yeah, it is this type of setting for a place like this. And it's I. For those of you who may not know. So Stockton is it is just south of Sacramento, the capital of California, and it's just east of San Francisco Bay Area. It's inland and it's basically kind of an agricultural center.

00:08:38:03 - 00:08:44:09

Clark

And you see that in this film, of course, where they're basically like picking onions, like bagging onions off.

00:08:44:12 - 00:08:46:01

Cullen

Yeah, he's got a good farm job.

00:08:46:01 - 00:09:03:16

Clark

And you see that. And I literally I mean, you drive on the five and you go through that area like you'll see giant trucks filled with onions and like little skins, like, you know, flying off, you know, because they're in these, like open top trucks, you know, such a huge now it's even I mean, I don't know, but it it might be even more destitute.

00:09:03:16 - 00:09:41:13

Clark

Now they're in some ways because the drought here that's been happening for so long has really, really devastated the agricultural industry in inland in the valley area there. But but the thing that you'll you'll smell Stockton way before you see Stockton because it is it's the cattle industry is actually what's kind of taken over probably is their largest industry there and there are a handful of I'm talking gigantic like almost impossible to imagine unless you see it factory farms with cattle, which are actually heartbreaking, frankly.

00:09:42:00 - 00:09:44:12

Clark

But you can smell it from like ten miles.

00:09:44:12 - 00:09:47:11

Cullen

Away, rows and rows of cows and tiny little cages, right?

00:09:47:11 - 00:09:53:15

Clark

Yeah. Yeah. Just like giant. Well, they're not in cages, thankfully, but. But they're these just huge open mud pits.

00:09:53:16 - 00:09:54:11

Cullen

Oh, okay.

00:09:54:16 - 00:10:11:16

Clark

With like, with, like, some shielding from, like, some roofs, some open roofs because it's I mean, it's like 110 degrees out there every day. I mean, it's a miserable place, you know? Anyway, anyway, not to digress too much, but my point is that, wow, is it a perfect place for a story like this to be told?

00:10:11:23 - 00:10:16:13

Cullen

Mm hmm. Yeah. And it's based on the book, which also is set in stone. Yeah. And it was shot there.

00:10:16:19 - 00:10:17:21

Clark

Yeah. So it's not.

00:10:17:21 - 00:10:32:06

Cullen

Faking it at all. Yeah, but, you know, like, that's that's exactly what I mean. Where it's not, you know, some films like this would go into this realm of being, like, dour and depressing, and every single scene would.

00:10:32:09 - 00:10:34:02

Clark

Be to really dwell in it. Yeah.

00:10:34:09 - 00:10:56:07

Cullen

Well, this movie is is much like Houston's direction. It's very matter of fact. You know, it's just about it's like it just kind of feels like a vignette of of like, you know, American life and where you just kind of see this story play out. And but it's it's also got this charm to it. You know, like the characters have these desires in Fat city.

00:10:58:00 - 00:11:03:14

Cullen

Well it comes from a term of that that means kind of like making it rich.

00:11:03:15 - 00:11:04:23

Clark

Making it big. Yeah. Like, right.

00:11:04:23 - 00:11:14:21

Cullen

Like and so the whole movie is about that, but it's not, it's not, you know, it's it's just done differently. It's hard to put a finger on it. And hopefully by the end of this episode as we talk.

00:11:15:07 - 00:11:16:00

Clark

It'll be a better.

00:11:16:00 - 00:11:16:22

Cullen

Way to put it than that.

00:11:16:22 - 00:11:36:02

Clark

But yeah, well I could, yeah, I mean, I'm on, I'm on track with you. I'm tracking. I get what you're saying. I think that it's, you know, it's kind of like, look, life involves a lot of suffering and a lot of struggle and, you know, part of what life is as we all get older and you come into adulthood, you have dreams.

00:11:36:02 - 00:11:56:10

Clark

And a lot of times those dreams aren't manifest. And, you know, there's a lot of look, the road of life is a bumpy road with a lot of turns. In short, you know, like dead ends. And, you know, it's tough. It can be tough. And so I think it's like it's kind of presenting a bit of the reality of that using boxing as a metaphor.

00:11:56:10 - 00:12:23:08

Clark

And of course, these, you know, characters in that world. But but it's presenting this kind of is like, well, this is what life is and it's not wallowing in it. It's not like, you know, I mean, there's some films that like really just over like melodramatic, right? Yeah. In in trying to present the suffering to you, they go so far as to get melodramatic, and then it's just kind of like you turn to at least I'm turned off by that kind of represents of suffering and struggle.

00:12:24:00 - 00:12:40:12

Clark

So I to I get what you're saying. I mean, my you know, this the first time I've seen the film, too, I just I watched it last night, actually. So I wanted to have it fresh. And I actually watched it again. I got a beautiful copy of the film on Blu ray. It was hard to find, though. I had to get it on eBay.

00:12:40:19 - 00:12:58:03

Clark

There was no place streaming it here, at least that I could see. I'm surprised it was actually such a hard film to find, but I got a beautiful Blu ray copy that had a commentary track. Sadly, not from Houston, as you would imagine. It would be unlikely that there would be one of these when I.

00:12:58:03 - 00:12:59:18

Cullen

Was a voice generator. Yeah.

00:12:59:18 - 00:13:18:16

Clark

Yeah, exactly. But there were some interviews of Houston and some other really wonderful features on it, but it was a really beautiful print, actually a really well done print, a lot of film grain. I think it seemed like it was really faithful to what Conrad had intended.

00:13:19:12 - 00:13:20:10

Cullen

It's really grainy.

00:13:20:10 - 00:13:21:17

Clark

I noticed. Yeah, Beautiful.

00:13:21:17 - 00:13:21:21

Cullen

In that.

00:13:21:21 - 00:13:42:06

Clark

Way. Yeah, it's really beautiful and very natural. It wasn't any nor, you know, like, not to get too technical, but just, you know, a lot of times on Blu rays or even 4K is they'll do a lot of like noise reduction and grain reduction. And it just gets weird. But this is really beautiful. But I mean, immediately one of the first things that that that I felt from the film was was the cinematography.

00:13:42:06 - 00:14:01:01

Clark

Of course, you've got this really beautiful opening sequence where I don't know how long it is before we hear, you know, a character speak, but maybe, what is it, like 5 minutes or something and we've just got you. And you noticed right off the bat this contrast between the dark of the interior, the all the interiors on this.

00:14:01:01 - 00:14:10:06

Clark

Almost all of them are shot so dark, you know, the bar and and the the Billy's apartment.

00:14:10:16 - 00:14:12:11

Cullen

And you get that kind of green tinge to them.

00:14:12:11 - 00:14:32:18

Clark

You know, and yeah, like really dark, you know, and, and then he comes outside and it's like this blinding, you know, like on, like almost hot side, you know, it's like a white sun, you know, it's like really. And so and there's kind of throughout the whole film, you have this it's there's a lot of it's very dark, very dark interiors.

00:14:32:20 - 00:14:44:10

Clark

Bars are really lowly lit. And then characters will come outside and it's almost just like, you know, it does such a good job of kind of representing that feeling, you know, if you get inside a building. I mean.

00:14:44:22 - 00:15:00:16

Cullen

And Connie Hall said that this is one of the things that he talks about and that that interview where he says that, you know, he wanted to basically recreate that feeling of, yeah, when you've been like if you've ever been day drinking in a bar all day, and then you come out and it's still bright.

00:15:00:16 - 00:15:01:21

Clark

Out and you're just like.

00:15:02:00 - 00:15:05:08

Cullen

Oh my God, it's so dark in there. And you just, you just feel like crap. You know?

00:15:05:20 - 00:15:08:03

Clark

The way I've experienced that with a movie theater.

00:15:08:03 - 00:15:30:15

Cullen

Yes, yes. Yeah, Yeah. But the way that he gets away with that is that he, he definitely it's quite ingenious where it's, where he just, he over exposes the exteriors and then brings it down through this like when, when the film is developed so that the when it's, when you're shooting outside the sky gets totally washed out and desaturated and basically becomes a pure white.

00:15:31:11 - 00:15:33:08

Clark

But then we just feel over that exposure.

00:15:33:08 - 00:15:40:22

Cullen

Yeah, you get you get kind of a regular exposure on the actors and the characters and, and but that's, you know, it works wonderfully.

00:15:40:22 - 00:16:16:17

Clark

Works wonderfully. So I noticed that like a medium, you know, that was one of the thing because that's kind of we have this montage that's kind of introducing Billy and kind of introducing Stockton as, as like a setting for this film. But as it just went, I mean, it yes, it's it's very beautifully photographed. You notice that immediately I was particularly I mean, I was really so just kind of initial impressions, you know, Stacie and Susan's scenes together especially, they have like a longer scene in a bar where he bangs his head on a jukebox are just exquisite.

00:16:17:00 - 00:16:17:15

Cullen

I just didn't.

00:16:17:15 - 00:16:33:18

Clark

Have the chemistry that they had. Was fantastic. Yeah, you can. I mean, I was just really impressed with the performances here. The authenticity of so many of these, like supporting characters, which I didn't find out until later. A lot of them were like real boxers or.

00:16:33:18 - 00:16:34:18

Cullen

Yeah, girls jokes.

00:16:35:01 - 00:16:58:09

Clark

Local people. They're it was a great scene where they're like, Billy's out picking these or, you know, cleaning off these from bagging up these onions. And he has a conversation with another man who's a worker who's out there talking about his wife. And it's like, wow, the authenticity, you know, of these characters. It's just Yeah. And Houston hired a lot of non-actors, frankly.

00:16:59:03 - 00:17:22:14

Clark

So that really stood out to me. And the other thing and I really like the film too, so I really enjoyed the film. I had a great time watching it. I was intrigued by the boxing choreography and how the boxing was shot. And I think because, you know, before having seen this, so even though these films were released after Fat City, I had seen these films before Fat City.

00:17:22:14 - 00:17:32:06

Clark

So films like Rocky and Raging Bull, you know, of course, there's I've seen a whole series of Rocky films, you know, as a kid before I ever saw this.

00:17:32:15 - 00:17:33:23

Cullen

But I was 20 of them.

00:17:34:06 - 00:17:48:13

Clark

Yeah, like 20 of them. Yeah, I think I've only seen, like, maybe five myself. I haven't seen the past, you know, ten that have been released. But, you know, I saw like through where he fought the Russian guy and, you know, and like, I will break you or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And, and yeah.

00:17:49:17 - 00:17:53:04

Cullen

The robot comes out.

00:17:53:04 - 00:18:16:04

Clark

But I, but I was particularly like surprised I don't know if surprised but, but the boxing choreography how that was shot I was, I was almost taken aback a bit at first by how different it felt. Yeah. Then how other boxing films approach that, at least how.

00:18:16:09 - 00:18:17:10

Cullen

Ugly it almost is.

00:18:17:13 - 00:18:18:07

Clark

Yeah.

00:18:18:07 - 00:18:24:15

Cullen

Like that. It's not. You know, every time you see a boxer. Oh, it's always very dance like which well can be true for real.

00:18:24:15 - 00:18:42:20

Clark

Fine. And, and it's not, you know, and it's like I and it's been a while since I've seen Rocky and it's been a while since I've seen Raging Bull. But, you know, it's almost like so obviously these are kind of these are not pro-level boxers. They're like amateur rated boxers. They're like lightweight. They're not heavyweight. They're in Stockton, they're in these tiny little places.

00:18:43:06 - 00:18:53:15

Clark

But it was almost like they didn't know what they were doing. Almost like it almost was like when they were in the ring, it was like, Have you ever seen kids like young, young, young kids play soccer?

00:18:53:21 - 00:18:54:18

Cullen

MM When they.

00:18:55:04 - 00:19:10:02

Clark

They just like, swarm the ball and it's just like you have this little swarm of kids just following the ball around. Nobody, like, plays position. I almost felt like the boxing was presented in that way where it was just like this flurry of just like punches, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop.

00:19:10:03 - 00:19:12:17

Cullen

And everyone almost seems like exhausted, you know, it's like this.

00:19:13:00 - 00:19:44:00

Clark

And there was no like, because, you know, at least in my imagination, when I like, rewind Rocky and like, play the fight scenes in my mind, you know, in a film like that, it's like every punch is like, emphasized, right? There's like this, you know, and, and, and it's, you know, to the to like the inthe little detail, every punch, every dodge, every uppercut, every jab is like so taken apart by the film and the editing and how it's shot in close ups.

00:19:44:00 - 00:19:57:09

Clark

And, you know, this was just kind of like for the most part, we've just got a wide shot of two guys, just like going edit it, you know, just like this little flurry of little punches, you know? Yeah. And you can hardly see, like, what's really happening.

00:19:57:14 - 00:20:08:11

Cullen

There's no, like, technique. Yeah, but like, kind of, you know, I kind of liked that because it's, it's to me it's not, you know, these, these boxing matches aren't taking place in big, you know, it's.

00:20:08:11 - 00:20:09:18

Clark

Not like big arenas.

00:20:09:18 - 00:20:18:08

Cullen

Right? They're they're, they're in these, like, backrooms of, like gyms and totally like, you know, a little tiny kind of, you know, concert halls or something.

00:20:18:08 - 00:20:19:04

Clark

They're not professional.

00:20:19:04 - 00:20:37:00

Cullen

Boxing and they're not. Exactly. And so there's this real, you know, I think it's like if there's like an overarching theme of the movie and it's not this in a cynical way, but there's almost this like pathetic kind of element to it where it's like, oh, this is actually when it cuts way out to like the wide shot and you see the whole kind of, you know, the audience.

00:20:37:00 - 00:20:47:03

Cullen

It's not a huge audience. And then you just get this little tiny ring in the middle and you kind of see them like falling over in front of each other. And yeah, it's like I think that the movie really.

00:20:47:03 - 00:20:47:17

Clark

It was almost.

00:20:47:17 - 00:20:58:19

Cullen

Again, even though it's sort of an ensemble, it sort of does a good job of putting you into Bernie Jeff Bridges kind of shoes where he yeah, he starts out as just kind of wanting to do it for fun.

00:20:59:04 - 00:21:00:02

Clark

Yeah. He doesn't even get.

00:21:00:02 - 00:21:25:11

Cullen

Being a professional. And then it's yeah, it's Billy telling you, convince them, you know, go on. Like Audrey's my manager, my old manager, ex manager. But, and then, and then by the end of the film, you know, spoilers, but we don't usually go through these things chronologically. So. Yeah, but, you know, by the end of the film, Jeff Bridges has kind of left that and he's he's good for himself.

00:21:25:11 - 00:21:27:17

Cullen

He doesn't feel like he's got a kid and he's.

00:21:27:22 - 00:21:30:17

Clark

Well, he's a working man. He's got a family by the end of the film.

00:21:30:17 - 00:21:37:04

Cullen

See how he kind of is introducing this life really briefly, kind of thinks it's a little bit pathetic and then moves on and.

00:21:37:04 - 00:22:06:08

Clark

Well, it's interesting and fascinating. It is fascinating. And that, you know, and it almost makes you wonder, you know, if is Billy kind of uses him and maybe it or not not not consciously, not not maliciously, but almost he uses him, right? He he probably sees a younger him in the gym. Right. And he's probably mostly talking to himself when he's like, hey, you know, you've got potential.

00:22:06:08 - 00:22:16:00

Clark

But but there's another part where they where they're talking and he's like, you know, you're soft. I see that you're soft inside, right? Yeah.

00:22:16:00 - 00:22:16:08

Cullen

Yeah.

00:22:16:12 - 00:22:42:02

Clark

And and I almost wonder, you know, in his in a way is this is, is, is, is Ernie really kind of like a mirror to Billy in a way or introspective. Yeah. Yeah. Or, you know and so it's almost like it's really it's really Billy who wants to get back in the ring and prove himself. And maybe because as we find out later, you know, he hasn't been around to the real Jim, to his manager in a long time.

00:22:42:14 - 00:23:01:02

Clark

And the excuse is kind of like, well, he owed him money, but that's not really why you you know, I think I think it's because he kind of, you know, maybe he recognized that he was soft inside himself or he was afraid that he was soft inside himself and that he didn't want to show his face. But but yeah.

00:23:01:02 - 00:23:08:16

Clark

So the performances I thought were just outstanding. I had never seen, I don't think, in any other performance.

00:23:09:07 - 00:23:12:01

Cullen

Susan Terrell No, I don't. I.

00:23:12:08 - 00:23:42:19

Clark

I had you ever because I don't think so. At least nothing that was significant that kind of registered her to me. But I was I was really impressed with her performance on the film and almost kind of in a little bit of a way, she really reminded me of Faye Dunaway in Barfly, which is also a really and actually I think I'm going to choose that for our next film because I feel like there's a lot of connective tissue, There's a lot of like there's through there's some through lines here.

00:23:42:19 - 00:23:51:16

Clark

I feel like it would be fun to kind of compare and contrast. Of course, that film is not about boxing, but it does have an element of of that.

00:23:51:16 - 00:23:54:11

Cullen

Some Susan Terrell is referred to as a barfly in this.

00:23:54:18 - 00:23:55:12

Clark

There you go.

00:23:55:18 - 00:23:59:14

Cullen

But yeah I think she she primarily did I think stage work.

00:23:59:19 - 00:24:00:11

Clark

I think before.

00:24:00:22 - 00:24:04:05

Cullen

And then and then did some work with Andy Warhol it looks like And.

00:24:04:12 - 00:24:26:11

Clark

So yeah she did some smaller things and I think even towards the end of her, you know, life or career in life, exploitation, films and things, I think she had kind of a a challenging life and health issues and some stuff. But what here's what blows my mind. This just blows my mind. I do know that she was like, I think something like 26 when she made this film.

00:24:26:11 - 00:24:29:07

Clark

Yes. And and Stacey was like 29.

00:24:29:14 - 00:24:30:15

Cullen

Yeah, I know.

00:24:32:02 - 00:24:45:09

Clark

And he even says into the film, too, you know. But when he set when Billy, you know, when Stacey, as the character Billy says, like his his character is like almost turning 30, I almost lost it. I was like, How in the world could you be oh.

00:24:45:18 - 00:24:49:13

Cullen

Okay, that's I thought he was like, I'm almost I'm almost that age, right?

00:24:50:03 - 00:25:03:11

Clark

I thought he was I thought he was seriously, like, at least his face. Yeah. I mean, talk about what a perfect casting then for me, because his face just says hard life, you know? I mean, wow. Like, think.

00:25:03:15 - 00:25:08:06

Cullen

Is Keach was born in 41. Yeah. And this is 70.

00:25:08:06 - 00:25:26:15

Clark

I think he was 29 when he filmed it. Yeah. Yeah. So I was first of all, I was just blown away, like, by that. Like. Like Bridges. Yeah. He looks his age. Yeah, but, but Stacy, as Billy, I was just blown away. But, but even more so than my point that, you know, here they are relatively young, both of them are young.

00:25:27:00 - 00:25:38:07

Clark

And wow, did they just do an extraordinary job of playing characters with, you know, so much more road behind them than than their age would lead you to believe?

00:25:38:09 - 00:25:38:19

Cullen

Oh, we had a.

00:25:38:19 - 00:25:39:08

Clark

Real life.

00:25:39:08 - 00:25:40:17

Cullen

Agent in their eyes. Yeah.

00:25:41:00 - 00:26:01:21

Clark

And she was nominated for an Academy Award for this film. Didn't win, but she was nominated. And I think this film didn't. You know, I am not a Houston historian. I will admit, but I think didn't Houston have kind of a maybe a decade or so of kind of he was in a little bit of a downturn, right?

00:26:01:21 - 00:26:02:02

Clark

Yeah.

00:26:02:02 - 00:26:11:10

Cullen

He flops. Yeah. Before you you had some struggles with making, you know, successful films for for about a decade. Yeah.

00:26:11:15 - 00:26:21:12

Clark

And this film, I think kind of like it was like very critically acclaimed, of course. I don't know. Do you know if it was commercially successful? I'm not quite believe so.

00:26:21:12 - 00:26:41:03

Cullen

I think I think it came in. So it's kind of a I'm not I don't know what the exact numbers are, but I think that it did pretty well. I know, like Roger Ebert considered it one of Houston's best. Yeah. And so I feel like it would have would have done decently There's not really I can't really find much information on like exact box office numbers.

00:26:41:03 - 00:26:43:04

Clark

But but yeah yeah.

00:26:44:00 - 00:26:45:00

Cullen

Played it con as well.

00:26:45:06 - 00:26:48:00

Clark

And this was an amazing year for films too.

00:26:48:08 - 00:26:48:19

Cullen

Oh yeah.

00:26:49:00 - 00:26:49:14

Clark

Yeah. I mean.

00:26:49:14 - 00:26:55:22

Cullen

Oh my God, we were talking to this earlier, but yeah, yeah, I this year of movies today is unheard.

00:26:55:22 - 00:27:15:23

Clark

Of. I know. It's extraordinary. I mean, so this is, you know, so for it to, to, to live in the year of The Godfather and Deliverance and Cabaret and Last Tango in Paris and, you know, Houston actually had the life and times of Judge Roy Bean was actually released in 72 as well as another Houston film, I think was was pretty successful.

00:27:16:12 - 00:27:38:23

Clark

Matter of fact, I at least commercially I know it was so a lot of big movies and and so for him to kind of I mean you know rise above all of that even and and get so much acclaim is is pretty amazing. Well I kind of, you know, kind of bouncing all over the place here. And that's just how we do it.

00:27:38:23 - 00:28:06:18

Clark

But, you know, you it sounds like that you've done a little research into Conrad Hall's work on the film. I'm kind of would be kind of curious to hear a little bit more about what you've learned as far as his his approach techniques or anything else that you might be able to share. Because I would agree the film has a really extraordinary look and and it's a unique look and feel to it that that really kind of grabbed me and pulled me in.

00:28:07:06 - 00:28:30:06

Cullen

Yeah. I mean, Conrad Hall, one of the reasons I love him is that he's he's such an adaptive cinematographer. Yeah. You know, he doesn't you can always tell it's a Connie Hall movie because it's beautiful, but it's it's like, you know, two of his movies come look. Totally, totally different. I mean, this looks nothing like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid with maybe a few stylistic through lines, but.

00:28:30:06 - 00:28:34:00

Clark

Well, and he did Cool Hand Luke to Right It Cool. And he's done a lot of films, But.

00:28:34:01 - 00:28:38:12

Cullen

You and Luke actually, I would say, looks a little bit more similar. This just because of those farming scenes when they're.

00:28:38:12 - 00:28:48:10

Clark

Out, those white, those white sky exteriors where where it's just and you can. And that was one of the things that I mean I could just feel and smell this film.

00:28:48:15 - 00:28:51:03

Cullen

Know I feel like I could make literally. Yeah.

00:28:51:03 - 00:28:55:05

Clark

And I feel like, yeah, Cool Hand Luke is similar, just like the.

00:28:55:05 - 00:29:27:20

Cullen

Heat loved texture. Like he was such a cinematographer who loved it and so that like so few other DPS did it at the time. But like, even just like in this playing with the grain for the interior and the exterior scenes where the exteriors are almost brainless because they're overexposed, whereas the interiors are really, really grainy and dimly lit and, you know, using that grain to kind of have this, this grimy feel of like the inside of a bar at three in the afternoon, which is right.

00:29:28:00 - 00:29:29:11

Cullen

The worst time to be at a bar.

00:29:29:11 - 00:29:30:20

Clark

In Stockton.

00:29:30:20 - 00:29:52:14

Cullen

Especially in Stockton. Yeah. But he and so he, you know, his, his choices in that sort of thing where it's like you're you've got a cinematographer who's working and he wasn't a perfectionist. You know, I think that's one thing that I love about the Hall as well as that his philosophy is what he called magical realism, I think was the name that he coined for it.

00:29:52:23 - 00:29:53:10

Clark

Okay.

00:29:53:11 - 00:30:12:05

Cullen

Which basically means like, look at a situation, look at this, the light in in a in a setting and, you know, make it sort of magical, but not necessarily like in a positive sense, but just kind of bring like that extra layer of like a fantasy to it because it's it's a film, you know, so.

00:30:12:06 - 00:30:12:14

Clark

Right.

00:30:13:00 - 00:30:36:21

Cullen

So like heighten, you know, if there's if there's light coming in through a window, heighten that by by putting a more powerful light out the window and amazing the room and then you've got like a beam of light coming in. You know, if there's if there's one portion of a place, like if you're in a bar and the the lights over the tables are like blasting down on the people, then, you know, you kind of he was a really simple cinematographer in that way.

00:30:36:21 - 00:30:57:20

Cullen

And I really like that. I admire that. He never felt gimmicky. He never felt like he was going into a place and setting up, you know, 2 million lights because you wanted to show off like his. Yeah. Oftentimes his actual philosophy was just to kind of take one single light and find a source for it and then just bounce that one single light source around the room with what.

00:30:57:20 - 00:31:19:13

Clark

You see in these bar interior. A lot of this, you know, these conversations, like I mentioned earlier, the the really wonderful scene between Billy and Oma where where he says, like, you can count on me. You know, you can count on me. Yeah. Not only is that a really extraordinarily well-written and well acted scene and one of my favorite in the entire film.

00:31:19:20 - 00:31:38:00

Clark

But that's I mean, I feel like that's a great example of the lighting that you're talking about here, and it works so wonderfully thematically where she's kind of sitting in front of that window and it looks like it's the only I mean, it feels like it's the only source of light really pretty much in this bar. And.

00:31:38:00 - 00:31:45:08

Cullen

Well, and that's that's that's what magical like that's what his I think his term means is that the scene doesn't look lit. Yeah it.

00:31:45:12 - 00:31:46:01

Clark

Sure Yeah.

00:31:46:01 - 00:31:53:00

Cullen

It just looks like you're, it looks like a movie Like it doesn't necessarily look like real life. It looks like a heightened version of real like.

00:31:53:00 - 00:31:54:19

Clark

Heightened version of real life, Right. Yeah.

00:31:54:20 - 00:32:15:23

Cullen

I think that that, you know, that really lines up with my sensibilities and what I like out of images. But it also, I think, really works for films like this where again you're you're looking at this like I don't I don't think it's a pessimistic movie and I don't yeah that the way that it's lit is pessimistic either it's it's realistic.

00:32:15:23 - 00:32:39:12

Cullen

It's authentic. Yeah. And I think that it really again Connie Hall didn't wasn't a big fan of of grain like if you usually try to get that's one of the reasons that he actually liked overexposing exteriors was because it would get rid of so much grain and make the image really clean. But just because it's his personal preference doesn't mean that he can't go, you know, at this scene should be grainy because it should feel gritty.

00:32:39:12 - 00:32:42:04

Cullen

It should feel like you want to take a shower after watching like.

00:32:42:13 - 00:32:43:07

Clark

Which you do.

00:32:43:11 - 00:32:48:14

Cullen

Which you know you do. Also, I'm looking at some of these characters here. I want to take a.

00:32:48:18 - 00:33:17:07

Clark

Well and a fun little tidbit that I learned. You know, apparently, I guess when when they were in production and the studio is getting, you know, dailies back, I guess, apparently, or, you know, starting to lay eyes on some of the first footage of the film. Or maybe it was like the producer. I can't recall exactly, but there was a little bit of a concern in the beginning with the way these interiors were lit so minimally or they were, you know, really dark at that time.

00:33:17:07 - 00:33:40:18

Clark

Drive in theaters were still a pretty big source of income. They went you know some drive through is would still do first run. But there was of course a lot of second run. And so there was actually a pretty decent amount of money there to get, you know, to do this, the drive through circuit. And they were really concerned that these that all of those interiors were so darkly lit or.

00:33:40:19 - 00:33:42:06

Cullen

You would be able to see you wouldn't be.

00:33:42:06 - 00:33:48:09

Clark

Able to see. Right. Because it's you know, it's a whole different situation. You're like, boy, how far back are you know, it's the projection and.

00:33:48:15 - 00:33:50:16

Cullen

You're always going to have some ambient light.

00:33:51:00 - 00:34:01:09

Clark

You're going to have ambient light and you know, all the reasons why, you know, the picture quality in a drive in theater is nowhere near what it would be in an actual, you know, real into your, you know, inside.

00:34:01:09 - 00:34:03:07

Cullen

Yeah, who cares? It's just a bunch of teenagers. Yeah, it's.

00:34:03:07 - 00:34:12:12

Clark

Just a bunch of teenagers anyway. Like, well, you know, they're just making out the car anyway. Who cares? But they were, like, really concerned about it, and it was almost kind of came to, you know, and Houston had to really fight for that, apparently.

00:34:13:20 - 00:34:35:05

Cullen

Well, I mean, what's what's funny about that, too, is that mirrors another, you know, film from this year of The Godfather where Gordon Willis had to, like, fight tooth and nail to to, you know, he intentionally underexposed so the producers couldn't bring it up in like. So there was nothing in the shadows. Yeah. For to pull out of it.

00:34:35:11 - 00:35:08:18

Cullen

Yeah. And so you know and I think that that's, that to me is really important is, you know, being able to make those choices. And I think that that shows why these like Gordon Willis and Connie Hall were such loud and yeah, memorable and famous. And in spiral cinematographers is because they they made these creative decisions. So they're you know when they made as Connie Hall puts it, when he painted with light then nobody else could come in and and change that.

00:35:08:18 - 00:35:12:11

Cullen

And it's and and I think it shows I think it shows in how good these movies look.

00:35:12:20 - 00:35:37:04

Clark

You know, And it's interesting that you mentioned Godfather and I'd actually just recently been watching those films, the trilogy in the new 4K release. And so I just recently watched the first Godfather film. And you're right that they the interiors are often quite dark and both, but they are so different. Yeah, so different looking. And The Godfather is such a warm film.

00:35:37:06 - 00:35:40:09

Clark

Those interiors are so warm and.

00:35:40:22 - 00:35:42:13

Cullen

Warm and it looks much more.

00:35:42:18 - 00:35:44:14

Clark

A much cleaner lit, much.

00:35:44:14 - 00:35:51:23

Cullen

Cleaner. It looks much more more intentionally posed for me. Not in the back but yeah but not Yeah they're, they're so different.

00:35:51:23 - 00:36:27:13

Clark

Yeah, yeah, so different. And so even though yes they kind of have this similar, you know, dark interior, they couldn't be more different. I mean I get a I have a totally different reaction and kind of feeling to the way that that city has shot The Godfather, which is it just goes to show I mean, even it's just extraordinary the impact that, you know, seemingly even small decisions can have on through the course of a whole film on how it hits you and how it resonates with you, how it combines with the story performances script, which is just part of what I love about this.

00:36:27:13 - 00:36:57:02

Cullen

But but I mean, that's honestly to to, to again, not to get super hyper technical, but yeah, one of the benefits I think about, you know, shooting on on film in general as well is that it's it's a lot easier for a cinematographer to physically sort of bake in that look to the celluloid and to have their decision kind of, you know, physically imprinted on the film.

00:36:57:02 - 00:37:21:06

Cullen

Whereas, you know, with with digital cameras, there's just so much latitude and there is a lot of latitude with film in a lot of ways. But in terms of color and in terms of like the way that your lighting, you know, you can alter a lot more with digital cameras. And I think that that's why so many movies these days look very similar because there's kind of a like homogenized like, okay, this is how you light an interior, this is how you color great and interior and this is and what Yeah.

00:37:21:09 - 00:37:23:18

Clark

And once it gets out of the DP's hands, I mean.

00:37:23:23 - 00:37:24:18

Cullen

Exactly. Yeah.

00:37:24:18 - 00:37:52:15

Clark

Whoever's, whoever's managing the post and approving all of that, you know, they could. You're right. I think there is more light and it's certainly cheaper. I mean, it is certainly cheaper to manipulate those things. But it's funny, you know, it's just to digress a tad, I mean, you're talking about kind of, you know, DP's quote unquote, protecting their choices by shooting in a way that makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to change those choices once the film has been shot and it's kind of out of the DP's hands.

00:37:53:08 - 00:38:22:19

Clark

It's funny, you know, actors will often do this to me and you'll see like where, you know, the director, you know, the is kind of doing the scene the way they think it should be done in the way they want to do it. And the director's like, okay, but, you know, try this other way. And so that instead of just flat out saying, no, they don't want to try this other way, because, of course, once an actor is done, I mean, they have no say, generally speaking, for most actors, unless you're, you know, huge star and you're you're producing a film and everything.

00:38:23:03 - 00:38:42:12

Clark

But, you know, once you've done it, once you've done your performances, it's that's it. It's out of your hands. So you have no say on what take might be chosen, but they'll like just completely sabotage and sandbag, you know, the takes. They're doing it the way that they don't want to do it. But but they also don't want to be seen as somebody who's saying just flat out no.

00:38:42:17 - 00:38:48:20

Clark

So they'll just like sandbag those scenes. So they're like, okay, I know they can't use that. They're not going to pick that take.

00:38:48:20 - 00:38:49:04

Cullen

Yeah.

00:38:49:09 - 00:38:50:07

Clark

So I just kind of.

00:38:50:10 - 00:38:58:12

Cullen

Chop up a performance so much in the edit and Yeah. But that the, the I think it's funny that they'll just flop the.

00:38:58:19 - 00:39:11:13

Clark

Yeah yeah yeah. You just sandbag and you're like no I don't want to And I think I've even done that before where I'm like no I, but not often. I mean I'm literally sleeping like maybe once or twice. I've done that before. Oh my goodness.

00:39:11:13 - 00:39:26:08

Cullen

But, but no, it's, I think it's, it's in it goes to show on a wider level of this film that you you know, you have there's there's a there's a look there's a choice behind how this film looks. Yeah. And it's not you know it's it's.

00:39:27:05 - 00:39:46:12

Clark

Well there's a lot of choices. I mean it's you look at everything. Yeah I mean, you know, just to kind of, you know, obviously the cinematography which you're focusing on, has a big, big thing to do with that. But it's like, you know, the script is written in in that kind of matter of fact way to it. There's like this really beautiful poetry in the language that these characters speak.

00:39:46:20 - 00:39:48:21

Cullen

Written by the same the author of the book as well.

00:39:49:04 - 00:40:15:18

Clark

Right. Right. And which was a Leonard Gardiner and I don't think had did he does he have any other books? This may be his only novel, I think. But and I'm sure Houston, you know, had a little bit to do with the screenplay, too, although he's not I don't think he has any credits in that regard. Leonard is the sole screenplay credit, but there are some significant deviations from the book.

00:40:15:18 - 00:40:34:19

Clark

I think the ending is a pretty big deviation. So Houston may have at it does feel like it's kind of a very Houston esque ending to me. Yeah, Yeah. And the book does I've not read the book, but I have read though that it's quite different. But I mean, just in the casting, you know, Stacy, I think is perfectly cast.

00:40:34:19 - 00:40:47:08

Clark

His face feel like everything from like the scar on his upper lip to just just in the way that we were kind of joking that at 29 he almost looks like he's 45.

00:40:47:08 - 00:40:48:07

Cullen

Or, oh my God, you're so.

00:40:49:12 - 00:40:49:23

Clark

Interested.

00:40:50:04 - 00:40:50:21

Cullen

In some things.

00:40:51:03 - 00:41:18:23

Clark

I mean, really. And, and it's such a beautiful contrast with such a young, fresh Jeff Bridges because that's the point. But that contrast and I think boxing is, you know, to just the costuming, the the location of Stockton, I know it is in the book, but choosing to actually shoot there for real, just every choice really does support, you know, all those that came before it.

00:41:19:09 - 00:41:35:22

Clark

And and it is a really fine line. You know, you were talking about how although it it doesn't the film does a good job of kind of showing these outsider characters and kind of in desperate situations. I mean, there's alcoholism basically, like at least a couple of, you know, at least Well.

00:41:35:22 - 00:41:38:06

Cullen

Alcohol is like a huge part of the movie. Yeah.

00:41:38:06 - 00:42:06:23

Clark

At least at least Stacie and Susan are alcoholics. I think like they're presented like they drinking constantly and they're drunk and they're in bars during the day. So it's like these desperate situations, but you don't feel like it's over the top. You know, there there is. That's such a fine line to walk. And I feel like all of these little choices, if you would have pushed too far on any of these choices, it would have just fallen over.

00:42:07:13 - 00:42:09:23

Clark

You know, I think the story would have just fallen over.

00:42:09:23 - 00:42:10:17

Cullen

It would have been too heavy.

00:42:10:17 - 00:42:35:19

Clark

Hand would have fallen over. Yeah. And it would have been so easy to make this melodramatic. It would have been. And I can just imagine, you know, all the ways, you know, that the music, the score, the performances, there's so many ways where it could have just fallen over. And and I feel like it's rare to find a film that can walk such a really razor sharp line for the entire duration of the film, which I think is important to note is short.

00:42:36:05 - 00:42:38:01

Clark

It's 97 minutes long.

00:42:38:01 - 00:42:42:02

Cullen

Yeah, it goes by. Yeah. It's like by the time you get to the ending, you're like, Oh, wow.

00:42:42:02 - 00:43:14:16

Clark

And I think if it were any longer, it would have also fallen over. Yeah, I was listening to the commentary that apparently there was a lot of scenes shot between when Billie goes back to sous ah, to Oma's apartment and he, he's given his things in a box and then when he meets back up. So between that and then when he meets back up with Ernie, there was a lot more shot, apparently a lot of scenes that kind of showed Billie going downhill like this ending.

00:43:14:16 - 00:43:33:17

Clark

Okay, just Cindy and I. And and I think this is a good decision. I think at the end it was about maybe 15 minutes ish or so, and they ended up leaving that on the cutting room floor because it was just like that would have pushed it over the edge to like, oh, my gosh, Like, I feel like, you know, I'm being bludgeoned by this.

00:43:33:17 - 00:43:34:15

Cullen

We get it again.

00:43:34:15 - 00:43:55:17

Clark

It's so much, you know, just too, too much. Yeah. But it's always interesting to me because those decisions are so difficult to make in the moment. Of course, hindsight, you look at the film, it's done. You're like, Wow, this is amazing. But and Colin, you know, you've made films when you're in the moment, all those choices can be so they're so fragile.

00:43:55:21 - 00:44:04:13

Cullen

It's hard to remove yourself from the work too. And yeah, look at it with, with sort of a third eye. It can be really. Yeah. So.

00:44:04:13 - 00:44:25:09

Clark

But you never even know. Even like you never, you know, you just and it's, there's like this, there's this a certain element of just luck or something where it's like it comes together and it works. And, and that's always impressive to me when I see that. And I'm always really curious about that, like how, you know, I kind of want to do like a like an attack, you know, like a post mortem or something.

00:44:25:09 - 00:44:43:22

Clark

Like how did that, you know, how were they able to do that? And sometimes it's just, you know, it's an alchemy that's impossible to to dissect at the end of the day. But anyway, I, I guess my overall point for that huge giant ramp was just that I was extremely impressed with what a fine line. I felt like the film walked and walked.

00:44:43:22 - 00:44:45:00

Clark

Well, you know, and.

00:44:45:00 - 00:45:08:06

Cullen

Again, it's it's like it's subtle. It's authentic. And it's I think again, it's not like we talk about this beginning, but it's not dour and it's doesn't it doesn't feel and I think had have they played up those elements like you said it would it would have just felt so over the top. And so like just just you know, you're just being.

00:45:08:06 - 00:45:08:13

Cullen

Yeah.

00:45:09:05 - 00:45:22:19

Clark

Well, I just feel imagine magic not to, like, beat a dead horse here, but just kind of in a funny way, you know? And I don't know if we can think of any any examples off the top of our head, but you know, you're talking about how we never cover films we don't like, but that doesn't mean that we can't use them as contrast to films.

00:45:22:19 - 00:45:44:15

Clark

We do. Yeah, but I'm trying to think in my mind. I mean, I know generically I can just remember snippets of films where it's like, because there's so many of these like addiction films or, you know, films that are representing like alcoholics or alcohol abuse or drug use or abuse. And they're almost comical in the way that they represent, you know, these characters.

00:45:44:15 - 00:46:02:03

Clark

Because you can tell that the director of the people making the film are really trying to make this seem, quote unquote, bad. You know, it's it's bad and okay. And it's like, yeah, it's you know what I mean? Yeah. And it's just like, so ridiculous.

00:46:02:13 - 00:46:08:15

Cullen

No, I actually I mean, to I have a specific example of a movie that was actually quite popular.

00:46:08:21 - 00:46:09:03

Clark

Okay.

00:46:09:06 - 00:46:28:23

Cullen

Years ago, but hereditary. No, no, Hereditary was midsommar. Oh, it was Ari Aster's movie after Hereditary, which I actually liked. Hereditary. And then, yeah, I saw Midsommar, and I just remember sitting through that and being like, I get it. You know, life sucks. Like.

00:46:28:23 - 00:46:37:04

Clark

Like nobler misery. What was that? How? Help! Help draw me in on where you see, because I'm trying to read. That was the movie where? Where they like, they go to Sweden, Sweden or something.

00:46:37:05 - 00:46:37:23

Cullen

They go to like the.

00:46:37:23 - 00:46:39:06

Clark

And they take shrooms.

00:46:39:16 - 00:46:42:14

Cullen

And yeah, it's like there's like the ayahuasca thing or whatever.

00:46:42:17 - 00:46:43:11

Clark

Ayahuasca. Yeah.

00:46:43:11 - 00:46:54:12

Cullen

So yeah, she's like, you know, the movie opens with her family, her whole family dying and then her boyfriend is doesn't care about her. And then they go to this thing and then all their boyfriends, friends.

00:46:54:12 - 00:46:54:20

Clark

Heavy.

00:46:54:20 - 00:47:08:11

Cullen

Handed be there. Then it's like every single super element is is like, you know, made to depress you and be like, oh, this is so sad. And I just by the end of the movie, like, I'm just exhausted. I'm tired of this. I don't know. Yeah. And it was really long and so.

00:47:08:19 - 00:47:24:07

Clark

And, and I think that's exactly why they left that 15 minutes out of Fat City which was a good call. But I think that, you know, it's kind of another angle to look at it as that you know, maybe I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you felt manipulated. You could see the strings, the you know, the director.

00:47:24:20 - 00:47:42:01

Cullen

Just just did. Where's where's this on its sleeve and. Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's the thing about this is not that not that the movie in any way to me started to drag that city. Yeah. However, it's really nice to watch a movie and to go, man, that ended at the perfect time.

00:47:42:10 - 00:47:49:06

Clark

And I didn't know how it was going to end like this was not a film where I like I had it figured out. This was not a film where I actually, when went.

00:47:49:14 - 00:48:10:14

Cullen

Ahead, I was I was kind of taken aback. I was surprised that like, Oh, this is and it does that also in a really genius way where it kind of at that moment, it cuts ahead. You don't really realize it's cut ahead, but then they just give you the clues contextually, like they don't need to show the montage of everyone moving on and Jeff Bridges going off with his wife and having a kid and things like that.

00:48:10:14 - 00:48:12:07

Cullen

But instead, you.

00:48:12:07 - 00:48:12:19

Clark

Know, you.

00:48:12:22 - 00:48:30:16

Cullen

Just you know, you come into this moment that's kind of the last set piece of the film. And. Yeah, and that just you feel like the way that the characters perform that, that Yes, significant time has passed. I think it's supposed to be what, like six or something? I don't know. Like it would be more than that because he's got children now.

00:48:30:16 - 00:48:33:22

Cullen

So clearly it's been about a year or more sometimes.

00:48:33:22 - 00:48:44:02

Clark

He still has his like busted nose. Yeah, I'm not quite sure. I didn't catch exactly how much time was implied had passed, but but you get the sense you don't need to know exactly how many months or when.

00:48:44:02 - 00:48:45:11

Cullen

It's time has passed.

00:48:45:11 - 00:49:01:12

Clark

It's irrelevant. Yeah, you know, but you remind something to just go back a little bit to kind of directing choices and cinematography choices in that scene in the diner. And they're talking, you know, they're kind of looking at this cook like, you know, and like, I can't imagine, like, what that life.

00:49:01:15 - 00:49:02:18

Cullen

Is waking up every morning.

00:49:02:18 - 00:49:15:16

Clark

Like waking up every morning. And and then we have Billy kind of turn around and he looks at all of the people there. And there's this really interesting. It's like, looks like a freeze frame.

00:49:15:16 - 00:49:19:06

Cullen

Yeah, it goes like Tableau for a moment. You know, all the actors have frozen like that.

00:49:19:06 - 00:49:22:22

Clark

They've but it like smoke rising, right? It's just like, yeah.

00:49:22:22 - 00:49:25:04

Cullen

And cars continue going by outside. Yeah.

00:49:25:04 - 00:49:28:09

Clark

So it's like a fake freeze and kind of a pan.

00:49:28:17 - 00:49:30:00

Cullen

Kind of a Gus Van Santos.

00:49:30:04 - 00:49:38:20

Clark

Kind of. I was. I was surprised that it was like it was probably the most, like, obviously stylistic choice in the film, but it was.

00:49:38:22 - 00:49:45:06

Cullen

It's in that moment like it he can kind of feel that he's he just has this sudden realizes how distant he is.

00:49:45:15 - 00:49:54:00

Clark

We're like, really have entered his mind. Yeah. You know, and but that just stood out to me. I thought that was like a really I was like, taken aback. I had to.

00:49:54:00 - 00:50:03:03

Cullen

Let even just the cook, the fry cook that turns out and smiles and the fact that Yeah, that Tully was a fry cook at the you know, that that's the job that he gets fired from.

00:50:03:03 - 00:50:04:02

Clark

Right, right, right.

00:50:04:02 - 00:50:17:08

Cullen

And so you know Yeah it's it really again without saying much it leaves you with that feeling like at least like kind of lingering in your mind.

00:50:17:16 - 00:50:18:15

Clark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:50:18:23 - 00:50:21:17

Cullen

This melancholic kind of ending.

00:50:21:17 - 00:50:40:06

Clark

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think melancholy melancholic would be a good a good way to describe the film. There's a bittersweet maybe to, you know, Yes. A mixture of, like, suffering and lost, but also that like, hey, this is life. Like, yeah, this is.

00:50:40:06 - 00:51:01:12

Cullen

Life. There's a recognizing of, you know, the worst parts in that. But like, but it's not like something where, you know, till he comes out of it in denial and like it's quite clear that he knows, you know that that things could be better. Like at least that's the sense I got that there's this there's this almost like tinge of not necessarily hopefulness there.

00:51:01:12 - 00:51:04:00

Cullen

So yeah I guess I guess hope is a decent word for it.

00:51:04:01 - 00:51:27:06

Clark

I think there's some hope. I think there's some hope in the film. All right. Well, on that note, on a note of hope and done a happy ending. But but yeah, man. Well, I'm really grateful for your pic. You know, I hadn't seen this film, and I feel like I'm better for having seen it. If nothing else, I feel like, you know, it's like it's it's a good it's like stay out of day drinking in bars.

00:51:27:06 - 00:51:29:18

Cullen

It's the other day drinking instead of boxing.

00:51:29:18 - 00:51:48:17

Clark

Stay out of it. It's not getting that's maybe the biggest. That's the biggest. And maybe, you know, and maybe sometime, maybe in the future we can do like we can have kind of episodes that are based or I'm just totally riffing now. I just thought of this where maybe we could have some themed episodes where we cover like, like, say, boxing films in general.

00:51:48:17 - 00:52:18:21

Clark

Can I just real quick, I know they were, but I also watched Million Dollar Baby not long ago before. This is a boxing is one of those like commonly used are sort of commonly used you know symbols, right. Like cinematic symbols about, you know, used in a lot of storytelling. So maybe, you know, who knows, maybe someday we can kind of cover like boxing as like a theme in cinema and kind of what that means and everything like that.

Clark

But anyway, I digress.

00:52:20:09 - 00:52:22:00

Cullen

No, that'd be I like that idea.

00:52:22:00 - 00:52:32:16

Clark

So maybe we'll do something like that. All right. Well, hey, everybody, if you've stuck with this this long, we appreciate it. We hope you enjoyed it. If you stuck with this this long and you didn't enjoy it, that's super weird. But hey.

00:52:32:16 - 00:52:33:23

Cullen

What your shit it.

00:52:34:04 - 00:52:58:01

Clark

Whatever floats your boat. We still appreciate it. Colin, it's been a pleasure. I missed doing our podcast. Yeah. So I'm glad that we're able to to do this again. But yeah, until next time, everybody stay safe and we'll see you next time.

Episode - 057 - Barfly

00:00:11:16 - 00:00:22:09

Cullen

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. Episode 57. I'm Cullen McFater and as per usual, I'm joined by my lovely co-host, Clark Coffey. How are.

00:00:22:09 - 00:00:35:07

Clark

You? I'm lovely today. Yeah, I was that was so sweet. You always come up? Yeah. You come up with a new album? Yeah. I appreciate it. Lovely. That's not. That's one you've not used. Well, I feel so touched. Thanks, man. Here you.

00:00:35:07 - 00:00:39:02

Cullen

Go. Yeah, I have to. You know, I have to keep the spirits up perfect.

00:00:39:02 - 00:00:44:18

Clark

I appreciate it. Yeah, I feel. I feel so wanted on this podcast. Colin. Thank you.

00:00:45:10 - 00:00:54:05

Cullen

And today is a the kind of almost like an unofficial sequel to last week's. I guess they're all unofficial sequel to each other, aren't they?

00:00:54:05 - 00:00:56:11

Clark

Where they are in our world. That's right.

00:00:56:16 - 00:01:09:15

Cullen

In terms of the the content and the, you know, subject matter of the film tone, I think you actually kind of spoiled it last week in the podcast. But we're doing barfly which is.

00:01:10:12 - 00:01:12:15

Clark

Yeah, I think I might have yeah I might have said I think.

00:01:12:15 - 00:01:13:15

Cullen

You said last time.

00:01:13:15 - 00:01:14:14

Clark

Yeah, yeah.

00:01:15:08 - 00:01:36:10

Cullen

And Barfly, it's stars, Mickey Rourke, Faye Dunaway. It's a bar. But Schroeder is the director who I had never seen anything else from Bobby Miller or Robbie Miller did the cinematography, who I have seen other work he did Paris, Texas, and some work with Jim Jarmusch and things like that.

00:01:36:21 - 00:01:47:16

Clark

Yeah, lots of it. Lots of Jim's films. I mean, he's done, I almost want to say, I think maybe half a dozen. Yeah, he, he shot a lot of Lars von Trier's or at least a couple of Lars films and then.

00:01:47:16 - 00:01:49:19

Cullen

Retired in, I think the early 2000 said.

00:01:50:02 - 00:01:52:10

Clark

Yep. With coffee and Cigarets. Yeah, coffee.

00:01:52:12 - 00:01:54:23

Cullen

Say, I think he died or 218. Sorry.

00:01:55:04 - 00:02:17:18

Clark

Yeah, sadly. But yeah, I mean some really fantastic films. I mean, not that we'll get into it more, but just. Yeah. Alex Cox's Repo Man, Wim Wenders, Paris, Texas To live and die in L.A.. Friedkin You've got it down by law. That's Jarmusch. You've got Dead Man with Johnny Depp. That's Jim Jarmusch, Black and White Coffee and Cigarets I think is also beautifully shot black and white film.

00:02:17:18 - 00:02:30:18

Clark

That's another one of Jim's Ghost Dog, which I actually love and have considered selecting at some point. That's another Jarmusch film. So yeah, this this guy's got some heavy duty credits under his belt.

00:02:31:14 - 00:02:49:03

Cullen

Yes. Yeah. And he's a fantastic I mean, he, he it's interesting and I think we are going to be doing a lot of comparing and contrasting to our last episode. Um, yeah, with Fat City. Just because not only is this again, the subject matters is somewhat similar.

00:02:49:12 - 00:02:51:18

Clark

It feels connected, right? I was right.

00:02:52:02 - 00:03:12:20

Cullen

It yeah. I mean, there they are. And they you know just even the, the atmosphere of them is very similar. But before not only that, but I also think that Connie Hall's work on Fat City and Robbie Miller's work on this on Barfly is actually very, very similar as well. They're both kind of like this gritty.

00:03:13:05 - 00:03:41:03

Clark

Yeah, they definitely feel like related films. Well, yeah. So, so we're going to get into all that and but I'm happy that you saw that too, because it was it was kind of an intuitive reaction that I had. You know, I had never seen Fat City when I watched when I was watching the film for our last episode that I just had this like intuitive, this was like, whoa, this film really, really reminds me of Barfly in a lot of ways, and I hadn't seen it in a while.

00:03:41:11 - 00:03:56:19

Clark

So it was kind of this very vague, you know, It was just it was like kind of like the impression that I was receiving from Fat City tonally really reminded me of this one. But before we get into all of that nitty gritty, I always you know how I always like to start off and this is.

00:03:56:19 - 00:03:57:16

Cullen

Like experiences.

00:03:58:06 - 00:04:14:09

Clark

And well, and it's especially cool to be right because I want you to go first. But, you know, it had been a while since I had seen this film, but I saw this film, you know, for the first time it was released in 87. I did not see it at the theater at 11 years old. Who knows where it even was playing.

00:04:14:09 - 00:04:36:07

Clark

Probably had a less than wide release, but I probably saw this like on HBO or something, you know, two years later. Right. So I probably saw this in like maybe 89 or so. Now, if you recall, I had selected Rumble Fish for a previous film. So this is now my second eighties kind of art film starring Mickey Rourke.

00:04:36:07 - 00:04:38:11

Cullen

And with something to do with Francis Ford Coppola.

00:04:38:19 - 00:04:59:21

Clark

Oh, this one is very, very, very popular with friends. Yeah. So, so for anybody out there keeping score, if you're if you're trying to put a beat on inspiration, you know, like, what's the theme of inspirational films? For me, this might help, but okay, we'll get into that later. So you this is the first time you'd seen the film.

00:04:59:21 - 00:05:02:22

Clark

I'm really curious to hear about your impression of the whole thing.

00:05:03:05 - 00:05:27:08

Cullen

Yeah. Yeah. So I saw it. I've seen it twice now. I watched it two nights in a row just for preparing for this. But, yeah, this was the eight, honestly. Like, I really I mean, we've talked about this at length before, about how I really love movies that kind of are just like ambling, you know, plotless vignettes of, of like, almost like a character study.

00:05:27:08 - 00:05:45:19

Cullen

You know, when I when we were talking about this before, I sort of said that it reminded me in a weird way, but there's even less plot in this of like the long goodbye, very similar to Fat City. Sort of honestly reminds me a little bit of like PTA was some of these movies as well, which isn't surprising.

00:05:45:19 - 00:06:12:09

Cullen

Um, I'm sure PETA has seen this, but like for example the most recent one liquor's Licorice Pizza, which yeah, again, thematically not very similar, but just kind of that, that like aimless, wandering, meandering plot about and you know, not it's quite lighthearted the whole movie like it's not there's nothing that is really again we talked about this last week too with fat City but there's nothing super depressing about it.

00:06:12:09 - 00:06:17:02

Cullen

There's nothing like it's not like they're living in great circumstances. The circumstances that they're living in are pretty shit.

00:06:17:07 - 00:06:19:14

Clark

But and it could be sad, right? Like this is they.

00:06:19:14 - 00:06:21:15

Cullen

Could you could easily do this is like you pressing.

00:06:21:18 - 00:07:00:03

Clark

Right? And then it's like you're like your characters are all alcoholics. Yeah, almost all of them are alcoholics. There's like, total dysfunctional relationships. There is violence. There is, you know, poverty. There's, you know, I mean, people are living in this totally depressed environment. These are totally checked out unrealized UN actually did actualized sorry characters and it gosh, you could have done this in such a way that would have been one of those like Hallmark afterschool specials like see Boys and Girls.

00:07:00:03 - 00:07:04:08

Clark

This is why you should never drink alcohol. That's bad. Okay.

00:07:05:15 - 00:07:39:12

Cullen

I know. Exactly. And that's that's what I mean is that you could like so many of these movies that are of similar subject matter aren't fun to watch at all because it's people with their lives falling apart and they're, you know, either drunk or constantly high or something in an apartment and it's just miserable and you're kind of like, you're not that that is a bad and, you know, not that movies have to be positive and fun the whole time, but there is something really charming about watching like 20 drunks in a bar, just all, you know, have this routine of like, Oh, we're going to go outside and watch the fight again.

00:07:39:12 - 00:07:59:12

Cullen

And it kind of, you know, the movie begins and ends in that exact same way, which yeah, and it doesn't seem like it's looking down on the characters at all. Like it it sort of begins and ends, you know, it opens up and they're fighting. Eddie and Henry are fighting in the alleyway, and then it ends pretty much with the exact same sequence of shots, just kind of saying like, here's the cycle of life.

00:08:00:02 - 00:08:17:01

Cullen

And but again, it's not like depressing. It's almost kind of charming in a way. Like these two have found their niche, like they've found their crowd. And no matter how many times Henry and Eddie fight, you know, Henry is never kicked out of the bar. And, well, he was asked to leave at the beginning, but he's never like a banned from the bar for life.

00:08:17:01 - 00:08:19:19

Cullen

Even though Eddie and Henry completely hate each other.

00:08:20:01 - 00:08:28:10

Clark

And it's just to tag in here. And Eddie, of course, is probably Frank Stallone. Yeah. Sylvester is brother's best role.

00:08:28:10 - 00:08:32:21

Cullen

I'm guessing you guessed it, Frank Stallone, as Norm MacDonald would say.

00:08:33:06 - 00:08:50:12

Clark

And I just. You got, you got. Because but but I. I love that you appreciate that about it because that's that's what I appreciate about it, I think as well. So I mean, it sounds like I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you enjoyed the film just like out of unaffected. Okay. I was just curious.

00:08:50:12 - 00:08:58:17

Clark

I mean, you know, it it seems like a film that is pretty niche, at least to me, right? That. Yeah. Yeah.

00:08:58:17 - 00:09:01:02

Cullen

Not super famous. Not like super well-known either.

00:09:01:20 - 00:09:20:10

Clark

I could easily imagine someone not getting this film, not liking this film, thinking this film is boring or, you know, I mean, I could easily somebody if you said, Hey, man, I, I didn't get it. I didn't, you know, this just didn't jive with me. I could I'd be like, yeah, I understand. It's probably got a very small audience, you know?

00:09:21:11 - 00:09:36:00

Clark

So anything else? Like what else stood out to you about it? I'm just curious. It's like, especially because I know just from having talked a little bit about this before earlier, you don't have a ton of exposure to Bukowski, so. Yeah.

00:09:36:05 - 00:09:36:18

Cullen

Yeah.

00:09:36:18 - 00:09:43:23

Clark

Bukowski wrote the script for this film. Bukowski was a writer well before this film. Some of you may know and.

00:09:43:23 - 00:09:54:05

Cullen

But yeah, so he's and Mickey Rourke is sort of playing Bukowski's alter ego that takes place kind of like this anti-hero of Bukowski's that is in a lot of his novels.

00:09:54:12 - 00:10:17:04

Clark

Somewhat somewhat altered biographical, but yeah, entirely. It's kind of like a fictionalized, you know, a pseudo fictionalized kind of like alter ego, I guess might be. But but does contain a lot of autobiographical elements, right? So because I think, you know, a lot of people might come into this film with the baggage of like, oh, this is Bukowski, okay.

00:10:17:05 - 00:10:19:06

Clark

You know, But you didn't have that really.

00:10:19:06 - 00:10:29:08

Cullen

No. Yeah, I mean, I, I, it's kind of, it's difficult to not know who Bukowski is. I mean, he's like, he's kind of like a, you know, Hemingway saint of.

00:10:29:08 - 00:10:33:22

Clark

Yeah. He's like a patron saint of drink is like drunk. Yes. You know.

00:10:33:22 - 00:10:53:01

Cullen

Yeah, yeah. Like that kind of Yeah. That very classic seventies eighties. Yeah. Like barfly. Really. Right. That's, that's why it's called what it is. Um, and so I think that the not knowing a ton though and not having read a ton of his work and not really being all that familiar with Bukowski or how he was in real life or something like that.

00:10:53:01 - 00:11:15:05

Cullen

Yeah, kind of. It allowed me to sort of enter the movie with like a very blank slate now and to really enjoy Mickey Rourke's performance as well. I mean he's so, he's like hamming it up, but it's so authentic to Koski. And I describe it to you earlier as sort of it's like kind of almost this cadence of like a Bob Dylan song or in everything.

00:11:15:05 - 00:11:17:14

Cullen

It's like to my near friends. And it's.

00:11:17:14 - 00:11:18:18

Clark

Like, that sort.

00:11:18:18 - 00:11:19:18

Cullen

Of sounds like, that's so.

00:11:19:18 - 00:11:38:16

Clark

Funny, like that. That line is like, I mean, for people who like this film that's like, you know, to my friends, to my friends, that's like the you just like that encapsulates this entire film and that one line, you know? So it's funny that you you pulled that out to use right now. Well, I you know I'm curious about that.

00:11:38:16 - 00:12:01:22

Clark

So specifically is talk about Rourke's performance. We're going to kind of jump all over as usual, everybody. So just hang on tight. But, you know, but you mentioned works performance. I mean, so obviously his early work had a big influence on me. And that's why I one of the reasons why I picked Rumble Fish, it's his performance in that film which is so profoundly different than this film.

00:12:02:11 - 00:12:23:18

Clark

He's so reserved and internal and Rumble Fish. And here, like you kind of hinted at, he's kind of almost hamming it up. But. But you feel like it worked right? Did you? Because it is it is definitely like it really walks a tightrope there, right. Where it kind of is a caricature, but somehow the character caricature still works.

00:12:24:15 - 00:12:33:04

Clark

So your impression of that, What were you like when you when you when you first see Mickey Rourke kind of walk and talk on screen, what was your thoughts? I mean.

00:12:33:10 - 00:12:55:09

Cullen

It's just so charming. Like you can't help but kind of think that it establishes the tone of the film very well. And it kind of goes back to how we were describing it, that it's not this depressing slog of like, you know, these people with miserable lives. And I think a lot of that is owing to the fact that Mickey Rourke plays this character who is just so completely content with everything that happens to him.

00:12:55:22 - 00:12:56:03

Clark

Yeah.

00:12:56:04 - 00:13:11:00

Cullen

And like, you know, and he gets into a knife fight with that guy in the apartment and it's like his reaction is like, Oh, uh, I hope he was alive. It's just this great, this great kind of attitude about life.

00:13:11:06 - 00:13:35:21

Clark

Well, and he has heart right? Like the guy. I feel like the role is played in a way where, I mean, I think that even though there's kind of this I mean, I guess, you know, existing really right. For me when I kind of look at this, I'm like, oh, this is such like a this has something so beautiful to say kind of existentially because the film, it's like it just embraces the fact that life is has a lot of suffering in it.

00:13:36:12 - 00:14:04:02

Clark

And but you can still find joy even in that suffering. And it's almost like a Zen like kind of examination of life, this film, because it's like, well, yeah, you know, so, you know, it sucks to have a job. It sucks not to have a job. It's, you know, it's like life is life is just one, you know, kind of bittersweet if you're lucky moment, you know, And then a lot of them are just pure suffering moments.

00:14:04:02 - 00:14:25:19

Clark

But it's like all these little tiny pieces of beauty that the character that Mickey Rourke's character is able to see in spite of all of that, or maybe because of all of that. So it's kind of like, well, yeah, life's suffering, but you can still find joy even in that. And so the character is never like, I'm out like, like fully checked out or like, I'm out of here.

00:14:25:19 - 00:14:40:08

Clark

I don't want to live. I don't there's nothing worth living for. Like, it's never any of that. It's almost kind of like I'm on the outside Looking in life is surreal and crazy. You're all nuts. I'm nuts. But it's kind of funny, isn't it?

00:14:41:00 - 00:14:42:06

Cullen

We're all along for the ride.

00:14:42:06 - 00:14:51:18

Clark

And we're all along for the ride, right? And none of us get out of here alive, right? So, I don't know. I think he did a good job. That's kind of my feeling. On his performance.

00:14:51:18 - 00:15:12:18

Cullen

Yeah. And then, I mean, fade down, and it's. I think it totally plays opposite. Faye Dunaway is performance perfectly because she, I think, plays it not like a character caricature at all. She plays it's super authentic and really grounded and kind of down to earth and more tragic. Yeah, exactly. And yet she still is sad at the same time.

00:15:12:18 - 00:15:55:22

Cullen

Very, very charming and like very, you know, even these characters that have such clearly very deep issues in their lives and things like that are still so enthralling and so fun to just watch. And I think that that's kind of the big thing that and it's such a fine line to walk along. And I think it takes a lot of like, you know, a lot of talent to, to present a movie like this where it can be really tough to to explore these kind of destitute characters that have nothing going for them, that spend all day in a bar drinking and things like that, but at the same time still not make that exhausting to

00:15:55:22 - 00:16:36:23

Cullen

watch and not make that something that's completely, you know, just again, this like, miserable, depressing experience. But to take that and it it is dependent on every single person that's involved, right? Like it's dependent on the director and how they portray the scenes. It's dependent on the actors and how they play the characters. Because again, if Mickey Rourke, I think was playing this less heightened, if he was just playing this and he was just trying to like, you know, authentically do it as as just a kind of a regular guy and didn't have the cadence of Bukowski in that kind of speech pattern that he had and just sort of, you know, played all these

00:16:36:23 - 00:16:41:09

Cullen

moments completely straight to. I don't think it would really work. I think the the movie would would.

00:16:42:07 - 00:16:43:06

Clark

Be locked down.

00:16:43:06 - 00:16:47:13

Cullen

Just it would. It would. Yeah, it would. It would. It would. It just wouldn't work as well, you.

00:16:47:13 - 00:17:11:05

Clark

Know, one of the things you mentioned, Faye Dunaway, you know, I feel like I almost have this fake memory when I first saw the film and I and I had it again most definitely when I saw it. Now I'm almost I'm like, kind of shocked that she took this role. Mm hmm. Like a seriously. So, I mean, obviously, I mean, she's a legend, right?

00:17:11:11 - 00:17:32:06

Clark

You know, ever since, you know, Bonnie and Clyde in 67. Yeah. She's kind of been a legend. And, you know, I mean, yeah, I think in the early seventies, she kind of, you know, had a little bit of a downturn in her career. She didn't have any big hits. But then, you know, before this film, you have what, Chinatown?

00:17:32:06 - 00:17:40:22

Clark

And I think was it 74, you know, Sidney Pollack's three Days of the Condor in 75, which I think was a big hit.

00:17:42:12 - 00:17:45:04

Cullen

And she kind of garnered a network, kind of a disputed.

00:17:45:04 - 00:17:45:22

Clark

That each other.

00:17:45:23 - 00:17:49:01

Cullen

Reputation, right? Yes.

00:17:49:01 - 00:17:53:00

Clark

Yeah. I mean, you've got you've got her like I mean, she's a movie star, dude.

00:17:53:07 - 00:17:53:13

Cullen

Mm hmm.

00:17:53:18 - 00:18:08:16

Clark

Like like bona fide, no holds barred, no question. Like movie star. And I was just kind of surprised to see her in such and such a role. Frankly. I mean, like, pleasantly surprised. That's pretty.

00:18:08:16 - 00:18:24:00

Cullen

Awesome. Yeah, definitely. And again, yeah, there. There was this kind of reputation around her that she was again, it's disputed that she was tough to work with some people she was other people say that that she was just super committed to like that I think.

00:18:24:15 - 00:18:34:06

Clark

What were the stories there? I don't know too much. You know, I don't know too much like from kind of that, like People magazine kind of. Yeah. Rumor stuff. I don't know about her. What is the what are the I.

00:18:34:06 - 00:18:42:05

Cullen

Know I mean, I've heard like John Huston talk about her and say that, like, while she can be a pain in the ass, she's like, the most dedicated, hardworking.

00:18:42:05 - 00:18:44:16

Clark

Well, Houston thought every actor was a pain in the ass.

00:18:44:16 - 00:18:44:20

Cullen

Yes.

00:18:44:23 - 00:18:46:19

Clark

Yeah, that is true. So I don't know how much.

00:18:46:19 - 00:19:05:11

Cullen

Yeah, you basically just described her that. Yeah, You said that she was hard working and that no other actor he'd ever met had put in the amount of work that she she did. Her roles. I mean, it kind of reminds me completely unrelated but like of and I don't know if this is what Faye Dunaway did, but, you know, I know Sigourney Weaver, who is not it doesn't have a reputation of being tough to work with.

00:19:05:11 - 00:19:29:02

Cullen

But I know that she, like, shows up to set with just binders and binders of work, like character work that she's done. Yeah. And so I can imagine that dunaway's the same thing where she's she's just kind of this apparently she was very much of a perfectionist and very involved in the way that she was shot, not in terms of a like, you know, a lot of modern actors say they can't be shot from below the chin or something to hide their double chin or something.

00:19:29:07 - 00:19:40:11

Cullen

Well, she was very, very involved in in like making sure that her character was represented on screen and thought it should be, which is which is neat and well, it's fascinating.

00:19:40:11 - 00:20:11:08

Clark

And and she might have had you know, so there's sort of bring a little bit of that into this film. You know, I think it was an unscripted moment, as I understand it, this that moment where she is in like her apartment building with Henry, Mickey Rourke's character. And and we see a little leg there. And they're kind of I think that was something that she had asked to add or just do something to give her character a little bit of glamor.

00:20:11:15 - 00:20:12:01

Cullen

Yes.

00:20:12:14 - 00:20:35:00

Clark

Because she obviously is dressed so down in this film, made to look so kind of, you know, beaten down. But but Well, I mean, look, as an actor, you know, and this is like I mean, I think every actor who's ever had any amount of success has had you have to deal with this and balance it. It's like you have to manage like you have to.

00:20:35:00 - 00:20:51:06

Clark

I'm trying to figure out the words to say this, like you never know how you're going to be treated on set. Right? And and there's so many moving parts to a film, but at the end of the day, like you're the person in front of the camera, like you're what the audience is going to see if the writing sucks, guess what?

00:20:51:14 - 00:21:09:23

Clark

You look like crap. If the directing sucks, guess what? You look like crap, right? If you're not well, if the DP doesn't do their job and I don't mean lit well as in like a glamor shot. I mean, you know, you're going to not look good, right? If other actors aren't performing well, like you're not going to look good.

00:21:09:23 - 00:21:44:18

Clark

So, I mean, if if you're really on top of your game as an actor, which she clearly was, you have to pay attention to all that stuff. And you can't just leave it to chance. And you can't just always assume that it's going to be taken care of perfectly. So I think, you know, really successful and actors who are really good at their craft understand a lot of the filmmaking process and definitely work to kind of if something doesn't feel like it's being done correctly, they step in and say something about it.

00:21:44:18 - 00:22:10:21

Clark

And I guess, you know, some some other people could perceive that as being a pain to work with. But you have to, you know, that's why you see people like, you know, that's why you know, you see successful duos, you know, like maybe or, you know, actor director combos work together over and over again because once you like, you know, you can actually like trust that, okay, yeah, the film is going to be it's going to be built correctly on Herzog.

00:22:10:21 - 00:22:11:08

Cullen

Nice guy.

00:22:11:18 - 00:22:28:17

Clark

Right? Yeah. And I don't have to worry that you know about all these other things and I can just focus on acting. I don't have to worry if the film is going to be well directed or well lit or whatever. You know, I can trust the other actors are going to be strong. The rest of the cast will be strong, etc., etc., whoever they end up being.

00:22:30:03 - 00:22:43:12

Clark

But anyway, not to digress too much here, but so I always take these rumors of like, Oh, an actor was hard to work with. I mean, especially when they clearly have a lot of great performances. I always take that with the greatest salt and I'm like, Yeah.

00:22:43:19 - 00:22:54:00

Cullen

Well, I mean, it's actually interesting that Ethan Hawke had a really interesting comment on it recently where he talked about how like the method, for example, how a lot of.

00:22:54:00 - 00:22:55:14

Clark

People have complained about.

00:22:55:19 - 00:23:18:02

Cullen

You know, like the method. And he was like, you know, he said that there's there's a level of obviously like any actor is going to do their role the way they see doing their role, the way that they best see doing it right, and that, you know, that you can call Daniel Day-Lewis tough to work with or because, you know, he wants to be called by his character's name or whatever.

00:23:18:11 - 00:23:27:22

Cullen

But at the end of the day, I'm not going to be the one to go tell him to not do that because he's lauded as a fantastic actor. Sure. Right. Like, it's like they're.

00:23:27:22 - 00:23:28:04

Clark

Still.

00:23:28:05 - 00:23:29:06

Cullen

Putting for themselves.

00:23:29:22 - 00:23:53:04

Clark

Well, the proof is in the pudding. And look, you've got be like Daniel Day-Lewis, where every performance is just he knocks it out of the park. Then you get somebody like Jared Leto and tries to do the same type of thing. And the proof is not in the pudding. They're yeah, inconsistent. One could say at best. He has had a couple performances that I think that were pretty good.

00:23:53:04 - 00:24:15:01

Clark

But he's also, you know, the bulk of his performances are not exactly outstanding. And he's another you know, he's another actor that's been, you know, stories, You know, all over the place about his the wackiness that he's done on set. So, yeah, I mean, ultimately the proof is in the pudding. But look, if if if the if the output is there, if the performance is there, hey, whatever gets you there, man.

00:24:15:01 - 00:24:44:05

Clark

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so let's go back a little bit and talk a little bit more about the cinematography, because I know that's something that, you know, it's a major focus for you in kind of like Mickey Rourke's performance for me was I think, the thing that really stood out to me the most, especially when I first saw this film, you know, And I didn't know who Bukowski was at all, by the way, to when I saw this film at like 13 or whatever, I had no idea who the hell he was.

00:24:45:14 - 00:24:46:07

Clark

So I think it was.

00:24:46:19 - 00:24:47:17

Cullen

Rourke's.

00:24:48:02 - 00:24:58:14

Clark

Performance more than anything that really stood out to me. But I know that, you know, cinema orthography is one of the things that sticks out to you at first. Talk to me a little bit about your impressions there. You know, your initial impressions.

00:24:59:07 - 00:25:32:15

Cullen

Yeah. I mean, Robbie Miller, again, is is this cinematographer who who really just has this naturalistic sense but is so good at heightening the kind of in accentuating like the natural look of a space or of just like an image using color or whatever. Yeah, you know, you could so easily make the, you know, the interior of a bar look really, really boring because, you know, bars are usually not the most exciting looking places.

00:25:33:01 - 00:26:04:03

Cullen

Yeah not and yet the, the way that, that they lit you know, whether you've got this like overhead light that just kind of shines this green hue down and all the all the patrons and it like looks like it's making them physically sick almost. And then the interiors of the apartment that are lit. So just beautifully so that they look like almost like portraits, you know, the one shot of Faye Dunaway when it's kind of she's framed within that kind of door, within the room, not the door, but the opening in the wall between the bedroom and the living room.

00:26:04:17 - 00:26:25:08

Cullen

And she's it's kind of perfectly square on that that opening that doorway. And she's just kind of standing right in the middle of it. And it's this long shot and you can see your head to toe and it's just really like it looks like a portrait that you'd see in like a you know, a National Geographic like on some, you know, like portraits of life in Yeah.

00:26:25:10 - 00:26:46:04

Cullen

In downtrodden America or something. Right. And and so he's really, really an exceptional like his framing is always incredibly well done the way that yeah you know frames and image and frames characters and lights them it's really, really serves the story. But it doesn't, you know, over present itself. Interesting thing too is that they actually invented the Kino flow light for this movie.

00:26:46:19 - 00:26:48:03

Clark

Though so know that.

00:26:48:03 - 00:26:56:06

Cullen

Yeah. So the bathroom moments because it was tough to light the two of them and in this tiny little bathroom because of course these were.

00:26:56:07 - 00:26:57:08

Clark

They were shot on location.

00:26:57:12 - 00:27:17:21

Cullen

Yeah. They were real apartments. They weren't set. Yeah. And so they actually invented the Kino flow light, which if you don't work in film, is basically just a more powerful, more consistent and nicer looking fluorescent tube. So it's in the shape of like a fluorescent tube and it can be inserted in those fixtures and things like that. And they're quite commonly found today on film sets.

00:27:17:21 - 00:27:21:20

Cullen

But back then they were, you know, they quite literally invented them for the So.

00:27:22:01 - 00:27:29:18

Clark

Imagine like a bank of like very I think what it used though, I mean they they're of different sizes but like four or five in like a bank.

00:27:30:00 - 00:27:50:06

Cullen

Yes. Yeah. And you can kind of position them. They're not there, they're usually quite thin so that it's like a pretty easy light to position on a ceiling or something like that in a tight space. Yeah, but again, I mean I like that sort of thing too. I like, I like it when a DP is sort of not only doing really great artistry with the images, but also furthering the actual technical side of it.

00:27:51:00 - 00:28:27:02

Clark

That's a wonderful piece. Like, Yeah, yeah, I didn't yeah, I had no idea of that. And, and I just want to add because you'd mentioned it, you know that the, that, the necessity that brought about the invention of the Kino flow was that they were shooting in real bathrooms. And I think I do just want to, you know is it's it's not just how something's framed or how something's lit, but it's the locations that you choose to shoot in that obviously have a huge impact on how a film looks and it's one of the things that especially stands out to me about this film now, having been and actually worked in very close to a

00:28:27:02 - 00:28:51:01

Clark

lot of these locations where they shot down in the kind of MacArthur Park area of Los Angeles is just how like beautiful these locations are that they chose to shoot in. I mean, we're on location in L.A. I think L.A. is such an important part of this film. The same way, you know, Stockton in Fat City was such a vital part of that film and has had they chosen to shoot that in other locations, I just don't think it would have worked anywhere near as well.

00:28:51:01 - 00:29:01:02

Clark

I think the same holds true for this, if you know. But if you know Bukowski, you know, you know that L.A., it would have been vital to shoot here in L.A..

00:29:02:13 - 00:29:31:08

Cullen

And I just think it's such a fascinating not only area, but but the like you said that the, you know, incorporating location and it almost kind of feels like this this like vignette or Tableau of like a time lost. You know, this was made in 1987 and yet it feels very classic in its in its like sensibilities in the locations and it's all these rundown apartments that were likely built in the thirties and forties or twenties.

00:29:31:08 - 00:29:31:15

Clark

Yeah.

00:29:31:16 - 00:29:55:06

Cullen

Yeah. Wise and it like this movie could very easily if you just swapped out some cars and made them you know. Yeah. You know, cars from the thirties. This movie could very easily be set in that era and I think that's intentional. Like this kind of era of this classical novelist who drinks a ton and is like, you know, so indebted into their work that they, they just leave society altogether and become this kind of.

00:29:55:12 - 00:30:12:23

Cullen

Yeah, yeah. As again as the title suggests this barfly. And so I think that that's something that's really fascinating too. And I think the location fits in so well with that because as you described to me earlier, that these locations like MacArthur Park, was a really kind of glamorous, beautiful area. And then it kind of goes down, right?

00:30:12:23 - 00:30:38:16

Clark

It yeah. In the tens, twenties, thirties. Yeah. Like the Westlake, like Westlake MacArthur Park area, which just, you know, for people who aren't super familiar, it's kind of it's a little bit west and north of the downtown town of Los Angeles, which doesn't have much going on now. And it's kind of, you know, south and east of Hollywood, I guess, if those you know, so it's kind of it's it's just a little bit over east from central L.A.

00:30:38:18 - 00:30:41:10

Cullen

So, yeah, it's sort of near silverlake.

00:30:42:17 - 00:30:43:15

Clark

It is south.

00:30:43:15 - 00:30:44:09

Cullen

Side, south of.

00:30:44:21 - 00:31:22:18

Clark

It. It's, it's, it's moved almost mostly directly south of Silverlake, but right, but today it's an area, it's a high crime area, basically. Yeah, there were really beautiful high end luxury apartment buildings or condos that were built here. And that's a lot of that architecture that you see, right. That kind of you can tell that they're used to it, which I think is so beautiful to this film that there's like a royalty in exile feeling almost that there's like, you can sense that there was once something there and now it's been let to rot or it's that time is kind of, you know, is disintegrating these things, which is kind of what's happening to all

00:31:22:18 - 00:31:25:10

Clark

these characters. Right time and drink.

00:31:25:17 - 00:31:27:05

Cullen

Is glamorous excited.

00:31:27:05 - 00:31:48:22

Clark

Yeah and it right but but you can still sense though that there's like there's like this royalty and exile kind of feeling like that. Mickey Rourke, you know, almost has this like, untouchable part about his character that's kind of royalty. And Faye Dunaway most definitely does. Right. And so it's so such a beautiful symbolic use of this of the location.

00:31:49:13 - 00:32:17:23

Clark

But yeah, I think like most of the money is my understanding that people kind of started to migrate WEST right? And so you get Beverly Hills, Brentwood, etc.. So a lot of people who had money who were would have been living in these very expensive locations in their teens, twenties, thirties, maybe forties, they left. And then unfortunately, this area became a very high crime and sadly low income and high poverty level area.

00:32:18:05 - 00:32:18:12

Cullen

Mhm.

00:32:18:18 - 00:32:20:06

Clark

So, so yeah.

00:32:20:06 - 00:32:53:02

Cullen

And I there's, there's just something really I mean I always find a location that is storied and that has history to it, even if it's made up for the movie. But seeing you know, a rundown apartment building that clearly has a lot of history to it is deeply, deeply more interesting than just being presented a you know, world of rubble or like a you know, that there's this kind of this middle ground, like you said, where it's like clearly these these this area was was glamorous back in the day.

00:32:53:02 - 00:33:12:00

Cullen

And the area perfectly encapsulates the people that now live there, which is all these kind of like people who have kind of reached a dead end and just spend their nights in these bars that back, you know, 40 years ago probably had some pretty high profile people coming in to see jazz shows and. Yeah. And so it's it's just deeply fascinating.

00:33:12:00 - 00:33:14:16

Cullen

It's like the people that kind of time left behind, in a way.

00:33:15:01 - 00:33:37:12

Clark

Yeah. And I but at a you know, it's it's such a beautiful use of, you know, like I said, like I think you're kind of hinting at like a world building and, you know, sure. Whether you you use something that's preexisting or you create something like, you know, a movie like Blade Runner, which of course is a film that that created used production design to create such a beautiful world that was so integral to the story.

00:33:38:16 - 00:33:55:02

Clark

You know, it kind of reminds me to, you know, what a kind of reminds me of, like the interiors in this film, which are real interiors. They weren't dressed up as my understanding. So these are part you know, you look at the interiors of these apartment buildings and you're just like, how in the world could anybody live in something like this?

00:33:56:17 - 00:34:12:23

Clark

Sadly, it seems like people really did that. Those were real places. You know, it kind of reminds me of is the interiors in a lot of the interiors, and especially in the beginning of oh oh, oh, oh, come on, Leon. The professional.

00:34:13:04 - 00:34:13:10

Cullen

Yeah.

00:34:13:10 - 00:34:32:09

Clark

Where like Natalie Portman's building. Remember that the like the the texture. It's almost like Luc Besson was like trying to recreate almost, you know, I could imagine, like, the texture in this film and the interiors in this film. I don't know. That just, like, jumped out at me. I was like, Gosh, that's another film that the texture seems so similar.

00:34:32:15 - 00:34:33:15

Cullen

Yeah, yeah.

00:34:34:22 - 00:34:45:12

Clark

Yeah. So I know, you know, So for somebody who loves Los Angeles and loves Los Angeles history, that was one more thing for me that really jumped out at this film is how L.A. this film feels, you know?

00:34:46:05 - 00:34:57:16

Cullen

Yeah, it's sort of like how when we were doing the, the, The Fly, um, and I said that it's difficult to describe to someone who doesn't live here, but the fly just feels so.

00:34:57:16 - 00:35:01:17

Clark

Toronto Oh, yeah, there was another and enemy or no, what was the.

00:35:01:18 - 00:35:05:01

Cullen

Yeah. Enemy as well. Yeah. And, and or Yeah. Enemy the Geneva Neuf. Yeah.

00:35:05:01 - 00:35:25:18

Clark

Yeah. I think you said the same thing there and I think you know, and that's just something that's like, well hey you know you're obviously you live in Toronto and that speaks to you very personally. I think for people who have a love for Los Angeles or who live in Los Angeles, you know, this film has the potential at least to do the same.

00:35:25:18 - 00:35:49:01

Clark

Even though I don't live in these areas, I have worked in a lot of these areas. But but just in general, yeah, I kind of have this huge affinity for like real L.A. films, you know, that were shot on location and that really accentuate and highlight the city. And yeah, I think I think when I was a kid I probably watched this and I was just like, Whoa, like, what is this world?

00:35:49:01 - 00:35:50:03

Clark

You know, like, so you said.

00:35:50:03 - 00:35:55:09

Cullen

You didn't see it in theaters, you know, So you want to watch it on television? Yep, yep.

00:35:55:09 - 00:36:06:20

Clark

Yep, yep. I watched it. Yep. So I watched it chopped and cropped and, you know, on HBO or something, you know, when I was a kid. But here I am, like living in Missouri. So imagine it's like I'm, you know, through.

00:36:06:20 - 00:36:07:18

Cullen

Mystical land out.

00:36:07:18 - 00:36:31:12

Clark

West, yet I'm like living in Missouri and I'm like suburban, you know, and, you know, Tract house. I mean, just imagine the most suburban, homogenous environment you can possibly imagine. And then, you know, a movie like this pops up and I'm like, what? You know, my little brain is like, what? What is this world? Who are these people?

00:36:31:12 - 00:37:05:18

Clark

You know? And it's just mesmerizing, you know, to kind of see such a radically different way of living and thinking and existing, you know, which was something that I feel like I really got. You know, I looked for that so much in in films or from films when I was a kid. And I think that's that's exactly why because my real life was so homogenous and safe that to get to experience other ways of existing and other places, this was like my window into that, you know?

00:37:05:18 - 00:37:17:10

Cullen

Yeah, yeah. And it's not like even, you know, the movie doesn't explore like, crime or anything like that either. It just kind of I mean, the worst thing that happens in this movie that involves the police is that they steal some corn.

00:37:18:20 - 00:37:38:15

Clark

But which is so crazy. Like, I mean, it's like, how random was that? What? Like, I'm curious, like when you were watching it, you're just like, eh, where the hell does corn grow in L.A.? Like, if that's my friend. That was that was my first thought. I was like, okay, this film's not taking place in the tens the twenties, the thirties, the forties, when there was agriculture in Los Angeles.

00:37:38:22 - 00:37:45:02

Clark

This is taking place at 87. What the hell? What the hell is there a corn patch doing here? Like, you know.

00:37:45:23 - 00:37:48:06

Cullen

This random parking lot corn patch? Yeah.

00:37:49:05 - 00:37:50:04

Clark

Well, I mean.

00:37:50:04 - 00:37:55:19

Cullen

Even just the way that, like, the police respond to that and the paramedics like all of these different characters are just so.

00:37:56:07 - 00:38:02:09

Clark

Oh, the. It's almost me up. Oh, wait, let's. Can we stop? Let's talk like so the paramedics are hysterical, but yeah, and.

00:38:02:09 - 00:38:13:09

Cullen

It's but it doesn't it almost feel like like a it feels kind of like a Seinfeld bit at that point, like in a good way where it's like these these paramedics that keep showing up and when they show up again and he's like, like you.

00:38:13:10 - 00:38:14:09

Clark

Guys always got to see.

00:38:14:10 - 00:38:15:12

Cullen

Shift and the night shift.

00:38:15:18 - 00:38:20:13

Clark

Yeah, the guy's always got it like a cigaret, you know, like that one guy's got sunglasses on, I think, or something.

00:38:20:13 - 00:38:22:16

Cullen

Yeah, right. There's like colors pop to.

00:38:23:09 - 00:38:39:02

Clark

These colors popped and they're just like, they're just it's the same paramedics that come in like three or whatever, two or three times during the film. And it cracks me up and that's why I there is definitely humor and a lot of it in the film, I think.

00:38:39:13 - 00:38:40:17

Cullen

Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

00:38:40:17 - 00:38:55:04

Clark

And that's definitely what and I think you really you hit the nail on the head. You know, the film is clearly not judgmental about its characters and it doesn't look down on their characters and it doesn't have pity. You know, It's not like, oh, you know, these poor characters.

00:38:55:18 - 00:39:08:00

Cullen

Which a lot of movies that deal with kind of this type of poverty these days do. Like I won't, you know, name any names. It's just to, just to, you know, not to speak ill of modern filmmakers, but you can speak.

00:39:08:00 - 00:39:08:13

Clark

Ill go ahead.

00:39:08:16 - 00:39:25:12

Cullen

Yeah, that's true. But I mean, I just noticed that there's like, I guess I'll say one for like, like Nomadland, for example, just because it was so big last year. Yeah. Like that seems to have like just a ton of, like, pity and almost just like, patronize us all.

00:39:25:12 - 00:39:27:18

Clark

I don't think I've seen it. I don't think I've seen that one.

00:39:27:18 - 00:39:38:00

Cullen

Yeah, Yeah. It just kind of deals with poverty in a very like oh my goodness like help these poor people and same with them. There was one that Ron Howard did last year or two at camp or what it was called Hillbilly Elegy, I think.

00:39:38:11 - 00:39:39:21

Clark

Oh, I guess it kind of.

00:39:39:21 - 00:40:01:04

Cullen

Takes this like this just patronizing. Yeah, look at like any poverty and whereas this to me this kind of really lines up with what I know about Bukowski's sensibilities, which is if you were to present this life to like an upper middle class or upper class, you know, Beverly Hills, Pacific Palisades type of person and show them this.

00:40:01:04 - 00:40:07:09

Cullen

They be like, horrified. They'd be like, Oh my gosh. And yet Bukowski is like, Yeah, if you don't laugh, you cry. Like.

00:40:07:19 - 00:40:11:04

Clark

Well, and he's like, Hey, I wouldn't take your life if you gave it to me.

00:40:11:04 - 00:40:29:21

Cullen

Exactly Like, it's like, it's like this to me is all. It's one of those things where it's like it's, it's almost like telling a, a, a low end joke at, like, a high class dinner party where you just nobody at the party is going to get it because they just don't you know, they don't look at life that way.

00:40:29:21 - 00:40:42:11

Cullen

Whereas money is like all that's important to them and having, you know, this, this shelter and things like that. Whereas this guy's just kind of like, you know, Henry just has no he's just going to float where he floats and figure out things.

00:40:42:21 - 00:41:09:02

Clark

Well, let's get him right and let's be honest, like, you know. Well, first of all, to I mean, it goes well, maybe it goes without saying. I don't know. I'll say it, though. But, I mean, you know, Bukowski really was an extraordinary writer and especially poet. And it's clear that that he had you know, there was a lot more there than just, you know, somebody who got drunk and got into fights or whatever.

00:41:09:02 - 00:41:44:08

Clark

I mean, nobody can write the way he wrote and not be filled with something really extraordinary. His humanity was huge and that's just because there's just no way. It couldn't be because you read a lot of his writing and it's just some of the most beautiful stuff I've ever read. And I highly recommend you check out his poetry, especially his I think his his novels are worth a read, too, but just especially his poetry is really there are some extraordinary beauty in that, you know, where people are always I guess it's always interesting or people are kind of fascinated.

00:41:44:08 - 00:41:52:09

Clark

That's so much beauty can be. I don't know if hidden it's not hidden is not the right word, but it's almost like.

00:41:52:09 - 00:41:55:01

Cullen

You can like there is beauty to be found everywhere.

00:41:55:05 - 00:42:24:12

Clark

There's beauty to be found everywhere. And I get and somehow people are surprised by that. I don't know why, but but, but so that's part of this story. And I think this is part of this film. And it's, you know, trying to convey that symbolically that the beauty of his poetry, even though his poetry is kind of about, you know, these quote unquote, low life, you know, things or, you know, that day to day life and, you know, living on Skid Row or, you know, being a drunk with no job or whatever.

00:42:24:12 - 00:42:51:07

Clark

But there's still all this beauty and wisdom and heart. But I was just trying to say there's a lot of truth here, too, right? I mean, a lot of like what he says about this film kind of says about life is it may be wrong. You know, maybe they're on to something that, you know, killing yourself 68 hours a week to make some paper.

00:42:51:19 - 00:43:00:03

Clark

Maybe it's not the end all be all of the world. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I, you know, I guess might not get wrong there.

00:43:00:04 - 00:43:15:18

Cullen

There's like there's an element to which so many people when I because I, of course, just got back from that like this three and a half month trip this summer. Yeah. And you know, a lot of people were like, well, why wouldn't you put that money away? And then, you know, you, you could save up and, you know, do it.

00:43:15:18 - 00:43:31:06

Cullen

And it's like I'm not living my life to to slave away in a cubicle for, you know, until I'm 70 and have, you know, maybe ten or 15 years to myself. Like, right, I'm going to I'm going to enjoy the things that I want to enjoy as they come to me. And.

00:43:31:06 - 00:43:54:11

Clark

Well, and you also saw a you know, I'm guessing that you also were exposed to because you again, not to put words in your mouth, but you grew up like middle class, you know, nice, nice, safe place in Canada and Toronto, you know, just like I grew up middle class, nice, safe place in Missouri. You got to see how a lot of different people in a lot of different countries live.

00:43:54:16 - 00:43:55:09

Cullen

Yes. Yeah.

00:43:55:19 - 00:44:13:19

Clark

And a lot of different people in a lot of different countries with a lot less material wealth than we might have in Canada and the United States. Yeah, some of us, certainly not all of us, but, you know, so So yeah, I'm curious, did you did you feel any kind of resonance with that? You know, kind of. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

00:44:13:19 - 00:44:42:09

Cullen

I mean, I poverty I think the way that, you know, the western ideal of poverty is very interesting because so often it's almost individual ized in a way. And we're getting very, very philosophical here for a moment. But that's it's always sort of weirdly individualized. Whereas what I noticed overseas was that the kind of you know, if someone was really, really, really poor, they were always still with their family, you know, they were always still living with their family.

00:44:42:09 - 00:45:04:09

Cullen

And they always seemed like there was a lot of just like happiness built into that. And I almost kind of see this as Bukowski kind of linking those two ideas, which is just that like, you know, we have obviously such a, you know, all over the world there's such a, a focus on money and income and things like that.

00:45:04:09 - 00:45:25:09

Cullen

And obviously those things in the system that we live in are important. You can't eat without income, but perhaps, you know, it's it's kind of maybe just a little bit of a un falsifiable hypothesis in a way of saying like, well, what if that didn't matter? You know, like, like take a look at these people who don't have a lot and yet they're completely content with it.

00:45:25:09 - 00:45:30:07

Cullen

And not to say that you should be happy with, you know, getting scraps, but rather that, like you said.

00:45:30:07 - 00:45:32:16

Clark

That there's well, you're not trying to romanticize poverty.

00:45:32:16 - 00:45:33:10

Cullen

Yeah, there's yeah.

00:45:33:10 - 00:45:33:23

Clark

There's you're not trying.

00:45:33:23 - 00:45:36:10

Cullen

To found everywhere and that and that but there's.

00:45:37:12 - 00:46:06:02

Clark

Yeah but I just wanted to add you know because as we kind of talk through some of these things, it kind of makes me think of more, you know, it's I think what what the film is trying to say in some ways maybe. And again, you know, it's like not trying to romanticize alcoholism because that's obviously clearly a very serious disease that affects a lot of people in really horrible ways, not just the sufferers of alcoholism, but the and friends and their communities.

00:46:06:02 - 00:46:34:22

Clark

I mean, that's you know, that's not a joke and that's a serious, real thing. Not that I'm trying to have some disclaimer here. I say there's there's other facets and kind of viewpoints to to look at this through or from, you know, and that is one of them. But that there's kind of it's almost like I mean, I'm just kind of thinking existentially a little bit, which is film kind of makes me do is like it's almost like yes, there's this suffering.

00:46:34:22 - 00:47:03:04

Clark

If we if we take it out of just the literal of like, okay, they're, they're drunks and they're they're living in their lives in bars. But life is kind of suffering and some of us are alienated. But you almost maybe have to kind of embrace that to hold on to your soul. Mm hmm. To keep from so fully selling out that that, you know, I mean, because it's.

00:47:03:04 - 00:47:04:13

Cullen

I mean, hey, I've, uh.

00:47:04:22 - 00:47:22:22

Clark

I've become a suit, you know, too. Because it's because you do have to. There is kind of a decision that has to be made for most of us, unless you're somehow born into wealth. I mean, it's like, you know, I and maybe this is what speaks to me on a personal level where it's, you know, I had to I made a conscious choice at about 30 years of age.

00:47:22:22 - 00:47:53:03

Clark

It's like I had a very comfortable existence. I lived in a nice, like, you know, apartment. And I, I made a good living. I had good insurance. And and I was like, this is this. I feel completely empty inside when it comes to what I'm doing with my life. This is miserable. There's no purpose here. I'm dying on the inside, even though I have all of these wonderful things externally, you know, But like this fun sports car, convertible, whatever.

00:47:53:03 - 00:48:21:06

Clark

Right? There's like, what I'm spending my life doing. This is just and it's not that I was doing something horrible, right? It was just not a match for me. It wasn't a fit for me. And I made the conscious choice. I'm going to do something where it's extremely unlikely I'm going to make a good living at it, but I am willing to risk being destitute, you know, and really struggling financially in order to pursue something I actually care about.

00:48:21:07 - 00:48:21:22

Cullen

Yeah.

00:48:21:22 - 00:48:38:08

Clark

And I think that's that's that's definitely one of these underlying threads, which is like and I think that's part of Bukowski's life too, which is that, you know, look, I'm here to write and I want my time to write. I don't want to, you know.

00:48:38:16 - 00:48:40:02

Cullen

Where I do that. I don't care.

00:48:40:05 - 00:48:58:14

Clark

And I don't want to work a 9 to 5 job and I don't care about cars and name brand clothes and a fancy house and all this kind of stuff I want to write and I'm willing to pay for that time to write by forgoing all these other things because they don't mean anything to me anyway. Yeah, So I don't know.

00:48:58:14 - 00:48:59:11

Clark

I understand that.

00:48:59:14 - 00:49:20:11

Cullen

Well, I mean, it's the value goes back to the, the, the, the kind of idea of traveling to where it's like I met the two sides of that coin while I was away, where there was some people who it's like, oh, yeah, you know, I take two weeks of the year to travel and then I'm like, hard at work, you know, business, venture capitalists and things like that.

00:49:20:11 - 00:49:34:14

Cullen

They're all like, Yeah, you know, I do that and then I come travel and like, that's my routine. Whereas on the other hand, you have people who to literally just it's like, hey, I do odd jobs where I am and make enough money to get to the next place. Yeah. And it's it's like they're.

00:49:34:14 - 00:49:35:17

Clark

All you either.

00:49:35:20 - 00:50:00:16

Cullen

Those people always seem much more relaxed and much more happy with their lives. I mean, you know, like, I know people who work decades at places and they get laid off and it's like, yeah, you were just a number at this company. It's and what, what now, Right. What what do you do? And so I've never exactly I mean, I sort of made a similar decision, not that I was in a place of, you know, I didn't have like a a great job or anything.

00:50:00:16 - 00:50:37:02

Cullen

But when I was at school I went to U of T for a year and was doing fine and was enjoying classes in a kind of academic sense. But I also had to make the decision to myself where I was like, Do I want to spend four years doing this, spending money to do this, you know, and get a job that I can get with a degree that I will never enjoy just to make sure that I have like a steady income or do I want to actually pursue the thing that that I believe will make me happy?

00:50:37:02 - 00:51:07:20

Cullen

You know, it's kind of the quantity versus quality idea, right? Like, I would rather live ten really, really happy years of my life and then disappear. You know, I'm saying I'm not going to say die, but but, you know, like in terms of this hypothetical question versus spend 80 years kind of, you know, like you said, slaving away and in a 9 to 5 and hoping that by the time I graduate, by the time I retire, I have enough money put aside to actually do things that I enjoy money or energy to write or even.

00:51:07:20 - 00:51:11:21

Cullen

Yeah. How many people die over their deaths from a heart attack at 55?

00:51:11:21 - 00:51:33:13

Clark

And it's like, right, Yeah. You know, none of us, none of us is guaranteed any amount of time or any comfort or anything else, regardless of what you have. And so to put all your eggs in the basket of security, you might be sadly surprised that that even when you do put all your eggs in that security basket, you still don't have it.

00:51:33:20 - 00:51:55:09

Clark

Yeah, life is fragile and life always involves suffering. And it's your choice to either embrace it or try to run away from it. But I don't think you can outrun it. But on that note. On that happy note, yes, life is suffering, know, but life is suffering. But that doesn't mean that you can't still find joy even in that.

00:51:55:19 - 00:52:26:04

Clark

All right. Well, Cullen, thanks again, as always, man, for a wonderful conversation. I really am. I'm happy that you like the film, man. That always makes me happy. I'm glad that you enjoyed it. I'm glad that I was able to share one of my favorites from my childhood with you and hopefully with our listeners here. If you've not watched it and you've somehow still made it to the end of this hour long podcast and it and you've not watched it, it's still very well worth watching, even after having heard a lot about it from us.

00:52:26:04 - 00:52:39:01

Clark

Yeah, because it because plot there's not like there's any spoilers for this. Yes there's no plot so there's no it's spoiler it's it is spoiler proof which is fantastic. All right well until next time, everybody. Thank you so much, Colin. Thank you.

00:52:39:11 - 00:52:40:02

Cullen

Thank you. Yeah.

00:52:40:12 - 00:52:44:06

Clark

Take care, everybody. Until next time. Bye bye.

Episode - 058 - Alien

00:00:10:19 - 00:00:41:09

Clark

Hello, everyone, and welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. I'm here with my co-host, Mr. Mustache himself, Cullen McFater. So you're like, We have different names. Hello, Is this me and my Mr. Mustache? Sorry. Sorry. I have to. Well, before I get into mustache and I'm your other host, Mr. Clark Coffey? But no, Cullen, it's a compliment because Cullen has this amazing mustache, which I know none of you can see.

00:00:42:00 - 00:01:04:12

Clark

And the reason I call it out and and I have to kind of tease him about it is because I'm actually jealous. I cannot grow anywhere near as cool a mustache as Cullen can. So it totally comes from a place of jealousy and any. Hoo. All right, well, hey, with mustache. Talked about an aside. Let's get into our film.

00:01:05:05 - 00:01:20:13

Clark

So for our 58th episode today, we are going to be discussing Cullen's pick and I think what if both of our all time favorite films, it sounds like, is Ridley Scott's 1979 film Alien? Mm hmm. Yeah.

00:01:21:00 - 00:01:25:17

Cullen

I I'm surprised that I haven't seen this earlier.

00:01:25:19 - 00:01:46:10

Clark

I'm surprised you haven't suggested it earlier either, especially when we were going to get into it. But I knew you're telling me, like, what a huge impact this film had on you. And if you can, you know, I'm like, I mean, we're like 58 episodes in. Now, granted, I think for the first 20 or 30 we focused on of we had kind of a different a different thing going on where we were.

00:01:46:12 - 00:01:47:06

Cullen

There's also Herzog.

00:01:47:16 - 00:02:10:10

Clark

On Werner Herzog, which is, you know, for those people who haven't gone all the way back into our repertoire and listen to those, that's kind of how Cullen and I met was in a Werner Herzog filmmaking class. And so that was kind of the origin story of our podcast. And so we were really focused on Herzog for the first whatever it was, I can't even remember now 20, 30 episodes.

00:02:10:19 - 00:02:12:00

Cullen

I think it's eight or something.

00:02:12:04 - 00:02:22:07

Clark

Yeah, something like that. Yeah, a lot. And yeah, so I'm surprised that it's taken so long to get to it. But that's hey, that's good. We've got a deep roster, right? So yeah.

00:02:22:08 - 00:02:27:04

Cullen

We've got to be careful because I'm sure that both of us could go on for like 5 hours about this movie. So.

00:02:27:04 - 00:02:28:06

Clark

Yeah, yeah, we'll have to try.

00:02:28:06 - 00:02:31:23

Cullen

And make this not the the longest ever podcast episode.

00:02:32:03 - 00:02:42:07

Clark

We'll try not to. So but let's. Okay, so let's jump in there then with you know you're tell me about kind of what this film means to you when you first saw it, you know?

00:02:43:04 - 00:03:00:07

Cullen

Yeah. I mean, this it's it's kind of it's like again, I've got to condense this part of it, too, because I could just go on and on about it. But so the first time I saw this movie was I was probably in elementary school. And a friend of mine who I'm still actually quite close friends with today, invited me over.

00:03:00:07 - 00:03:33:05

Cullen

And I guess his mom was always a really big fan of like Sigourney Weaver in these movies and things like that and James Cameron. And we watched Aliens first. I remember I saw aliens first. And I think the only reason that we watched Aliens first was because probably AMC or something was doing a marathon of them and they were recording them to like VHS, you know, like the right on files, right or placement files, but recording the show to the VHS tapes so we could watch it back.

00:03:33:05 - 00:03:54:12

Cullen

And so the first time I saw aliens, you know, obviously I loved it like a really cool kind of scary action movie and sci fi and all that. And and then I think, like the next week he was like, Oh yeah, my mom recorded Alien this time so we can go watch Alien. So I went back over to his house and we watched and again, these are like not official VHS.

00:03:54:12 - 00:04:20:00

Cullen

So they were the worst quality any time there was any anything dark, which there's a lot of in this movie, you basically couldn't see anything. Yeah. And the sound was all that like, really? Ray Bradbury. You know, lots of static in the sound and things like that. And but again, it kind of, I guess goes to show that like we just didn't know really what HD was then anyway, it wasn't like you know, it didn't bother us at all because there was no relative comparison other than a movie theater.

00:04:20:16 - 00:04:26:00

Clark

Dude, I used to watch everything at home on like a nine inch RCA, black white.

00:04:26:01 - 00:04:26:16

Cullen

Teeth, black.

00:04:26:16 - 00:04:27:12

Clark

And white. So I had.

00:04:27:21 - 00:04:49:06

Cullen

A black and white TV as well for a while. Yeah. And so, so yeah, I mean, and then I immediately love them and I probably I don't know how many years later, but, but it stuck with me so much. And my friend again, same friend Evan stuck with us so much that, that when Prometheus came out we went to see it together with a few other friends.

00:04:49:06 - 00:05:08:10

Cullen

And in high school I remember this. We had this big film class and we made this movie that was like a parody of Alien called the Poster promo, which is just switching the name of the ship from an end to a P. And that's where I got the, you know, the production company that I run now is Eternal Pictures.

00:05:08:10 - 00:05:15:01

Cullen

And of course, even in my professional life, this movie is is, you know, abundantly involved.

00:05:15:04 - 00:05:19:20

Clark

Can I just add, though, that like, poster Momo makes me think of like an Italian dish? Yeah.

00:05:19:21 - 00:05:20:13

Cullen

Pastrami or.

00:05:20:13 - 00:05:27:00

Clark

Something. When I hear when I hear first promo, I imagine, like, you know, Mario or something. Yeah.

00:05:27:02 - 00:05:58:17

Cullen

You know, like one this little pasta dish or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I and, but it's one of those movies that also, like, every it's difficult for me to think of a movie that I have made, even if they're not horror movies, if there is purely drama or whatever, that hasn't been somehow influenced by alien of if be it, you know, visually or you know, whether I'm stealing just a shot or something like that or just the, the, you know, kind of, um, and then there were none qualities of the screenplay.

00:05:58:17 - 00:06:28:01

Cullen

And I think that that's another thing that really affected me about this movie is that I, I grew up loving Agatha Christie and Sherlock Holmes and things like that and like and then there were None is still one of my favorite books. And of course, this screenplay and this movie really reference that a lot, not in literary references and dialog, but you know, everyone that is in all the behind the scenes stuff talks about, you know, kind of the Agatha Christie overtones of like the people going missing one by one and, you know, that sort of thing.

00:06:28:01 - 00:06:51:18

Cullen

So I think that it was it was right up my alley and, you know, right up until the point that, like my first feature that I did last year, the entire, you know, final 15 minute climax is completely, completely based on Alien. You know, I every time I was trying to describe to someone, I would just show them, you know, a scene from Alien and be like, this is this is what we're doing to the point that it's a slow Dolley on the ground backwards of someone.

00:06:51:18 - 00:06:51:22

Cullen

Yeah.

00:06:52:06 - 00:07:15:02

Clark

So so so what do you think like but when you were a kid right so a lot of this is in hindsight, right. Where it's like okay, now, now you you know, you're you're a cinephile and a filmmaker yourself. But at the time when you were a kid, like what stood out the most to you? Like, was it like the creature design was it that that tension and suspense?

00:07:15:02 - 00:07:17:09

Clark

Was it the science fiction aspect of like.

00:07:17:09 - 00:07:21:19

Cullen

I think it was just the, the like elements of just.

00:07:21:20 - 00:07:23:22

Clark

Sort of Weaver and her. This is where I was.

00:07:23:23 - 00:07:45:10

Cullen

Sigourney Weaver Yes. Yeah. The background. I think the world like this is probably my favorite fictional universe of any any movie. I'm not a really big I'm not like a big franchise guy. I don't Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, I don't go into the Marvel movies even like, you know, Star Wars. I think a few of the movies are pretty good, but I'm not I'm not a huge, you know, I don't really like.

00:07:46:01 - 00:08:04:04

Cullen

Yeah, I know you're not a fan of filmmaker. Yeah, exactly. But but I will say that like Alien is something that no matter what it is, you know, if it's a video game, if it's a movie or whatever, a TV show, I'd probably watch it just because I really, really like the design of this world. It feels very rich.

00:08:04:04 - 00:08:11:14

Cullen

It feels very realistic where, you know, you've got this corporation that Weyland Utenti Corp. I think it's just Weyland in this one. And I think they put the Utah Yeah.

00:08:11:14 - 00:08:12:20

Clark

They add that on later Yeah.

00:08:14:08 - 00:08:24:18

Cullen

And it's like this but they're not like outright antagonistic evil They're just a corporation. Yeah. And they do the same thing that all corporations do, which is expand their, you know, lower.

00:08:24:21 - 00:08:28:06

Clark

Which ends up being ultimately evil. But that's a.

00:08:28:18 - 00:08:48:22

Cullen

It's another very realistic portrayal of like, you know, corporate corporate kind of lifestyle and things like that. And I think a very good and dire warning as to kind of the dangers of powerful corporations. But and so I just I just love the the you know, it's not as dower as Blade Runner, I'd say like I like the world of Blade Runner as well.

00:08:48:22 - 00:09:10:17

Cullen

But I'd say that Alien, there's like a little bit more of a a grounded sense where it's like this just, it just feels so incredibly lived in and, and real and not necessarily like a future that is necessarily what we would get to, but rather I could see in some sort of alternate earth, you know, that this would be a pretty it just feels like it's a very well thought out.

00:09:10:17 - 00:09:39:00

Clark

Well the character Yeah I yeah I mean and I think that's you know so that's so we'll get into all of that because I think that what you're describing in that art direction and production design and you know some of the most amazing people that have worked in that in that field and Ridley Scott himself as a director is one of the probably most production design oriented directors ever, you know, Yeah, certainly at his level of success.

00:09:39:09 - 00:10:04:17

Clark

But yeah, I mean, for me, I saw the film when I was very young too. I have no recollection of when I first saw it. I was three when it came out, so I definitely didn't see it when it first came out. It's possible and I can't remember. I just can't remember. But it's actually possible that I saw aliens first two or saw aliens very closely about when I saw Alien.

00:10:05:22 - 00:10:14:08

Clark

I definitely have more memory. So when I was a kid, I think if you were to ask me, I would have said I like aliens better when I was really young. Because.

00:10:14:12 - 00:10:14:18

Cullen

Yeah.

00:10:15:02 - 00:10:35:08

Clark

Because it's just it's just it's an action film, you know? It's it's, you know, for a 13 year old kid, it was just it was so much more action going on in that film. You get to see the alien a lot more. There's guns and explosions and the like, egg laying mother at the end and the big like, you know, like a neck fight.

00:10:35:08 - 00:10:55:23

Clark

I'll just call her a fight, you know, basically at the end image, just a lot more going on. But but certainly as I got older, Alien became my my favorite of the two but to go back so yeah, I was young, too. I saw it probably on HBO or TV something, you know, for sure. And I kind of in the same boat as you.

00:10:55:23 - 00:11:23:07

Clark

The thing that really stuck out to me was the world that they created. I mean, it's I, I also am not a fanboy really, of any other kind of cinematic universe, I guess, for lack of a better term. But I have always been intrigued by this cinematic universe, and I'm at least partially interested in every alien film that's been released since.

00:11:23:14 - 00:11:54:01

Clark

And there have been there have been obviously some not stellar films made in the in the series, but even then I'm like, I can find something to enjoy if it's if only it's like another little tidbit about this world. But I think that speaks so much to the density and richness of the of the production design and art direction of this film that it left so many avenues to build upon down the road.

00:11:54:01 - 00:12:08:12

Clark

For all the other stories that have, you know, kind of sprung forth from this first film. And it leaves such a it's just such a rich film. Your imagination just runs wild. I think You can't help.

00:12:08:13 - 00:12:25:17

Cullen

Yeah, you just you want to know more about it and I think that's the thing is that especially with this and aliens as well and I mean I would say pretty much all the movies is that they never like you never see too much of the world. So your curiosity is almost driven nuts because you're just like, I want to know what Earth looks like.

00:12:25:17 - 00:12:27:12

Cullen

I want to know what? Yeah, you know what?

00:12:27:15 - 00:12:28:03

Clark

What you do.

00:12:28:04 - 00:12:31:19

Cullen

What is this corporate structure? What's this? What does the country is like, you know?

00:12:32:00 - 00:12:54:12

Clark

And what you do see is so well put together. Yeah. And I think that's why I think that's why you want to see more because it's just so visually rich and so beautiful. But let's let's back up though, for a second. And because I think the origin of this film is pretty interesting, you know, so the story in at least like I mean, the screenplay credit goes to Dan O'Bannon.

00:12:54:19 - 00:13:20:14

Clark

This is kind of like especially if you watch the really extraordinary I think it's like 3 to 4 hour long making of documentary that exist for this film. And actually every other alien film, at least of the original four films, you can really get a sense between especially like David Gila and Dan O'Bannon, that there's definitely like was some contention between the two of them.

00:13:20:14 - 00:13:27:23

Clark

No writing of the story, you know, But but Dan O'Bannon goes way back to Dark Star John Carpenter's first film.

00:13:28:06 - 00:13:34:01

Cullen

Which sort of inspired, weirdly enough, this because there's the alien creature sort of star that which.

00:13:34:01 - 00:13:54:15

Clark

Is a beach ball. Yeah. So dark. Depp stars like a super low budget. It's basically a student film. It's worth seeing, though, I would say I own it. I've seen it. It's worth seen. It's pretty goofy, but it's kind of part of its charm. But but Dan O'Bannon worked on that film and I think help me out here.

00:13:54:15 - 00:13:59:05

Clark

But he went from that. Did he go from that to Dune? Is do I have that correct?

00:13:59:05 - 00:14:12:10

Cullen

I think so. From my understanding, he went from that to trying to get alien made and then when that was not happening, went to Dune. Right. But it wasn't it wasn't alien as we know it. It was, it was quite.

00:14:12:10 - 00:14:13:17

Clark

A totally and that's where Yeah.

00:14:13:17 - 00:14:18:19

Cullen

Totally different story and, and then Yeah. So then he went to Jodorowsky's Dune which which.

00:14:18:19 - 00:14:19:07

Clark

Which film.

00:14:19:07 - 00:14:22:12

Cullen

History. Yeah. Does did not happen famously fell through.

00:14:22:15 - 00:14:29:04

Clark

Famously fell through but super important while he was there he met H.R. Giger.

00:14:29:16 - 00:14:30:10

Cullen

Yes. Yeah.

00:14:30:10 - 00:14:46:00

Clark

And I think Digger was doing some design work for Dune. It's a nightmare. Oh, I want to call something out to. I just want to call something out real quick. I forgot about this when I first mentioned him. So do you know where Dan O'Bannon's from, where he was born and raised in Saint Louis, Missouri.

00:14:47:08 - 00:14:50:06

Cullen

So we got to Missouri and we've got a Canadian working on Alien.

00:14:50:06 - 00:15:12:16

Clark

There you go. Hometown boy makes good. Okay. Yeah. So I just had to because not a lot of people in film are from Saint Louis, Missouri, anyway, so. Yeah. So he so he meets Eager. They do some work and O'Bannon is blown away by his work which obviously is just you can't overstate how vital his design work is on this film.

00:15:12:22 - 00:15:14:23

Clark

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's just it's, it's.

00:15:15:01 - 00:15:16:04

Cullen

There's nothing else like it.

00:15:16:09 - 00:15:44:11

Clark

Yeah. And, and so. Right. So I think he comes back and, and he's got this script and he who else did he work with. There was somebody else that he worked with on the script and now it's Ronald just right. So those two, they're working on the script and it ends up getting in the hands of the newly formed production company Brandywine, which is Jordan Carroll, David Gaylor and Walter Hill.

00:15:44:19 - 00:16:10:18

Clark

Walter Hill, this guy of those three that I know most about or most of like from his especially his like seventies work. Yeah. DRIVER Yeah. And the get away he he wrote a lot of stuff. He directed some scenes. Yeah. And Southern Comfort was actually the film that I think he went to direct instead of this one. So you kind of was slated direct to direct this film once Brandywine picked it up.

00:16:11:06 - 00:16:24:17

Clark

But, but yeah, just to go back. So I think that's where like that, at least according to them, the three men at Brandywine were like O'Bannon. I don't know, man. This the script is not super great. They love.

00:16:24:20 - 00:16:25:02

Cullen

The.

00:16:25:05 - 00:16:34:04

Clark

Idea of, like, the trespasser. And and that was like, kind of the idea that really grab them. So at least according to them, they totally rewrote the script.

00:16:34:06 - 00:16:49:22

Cullen

Yeah. So what I understand about that, too, is that it was there was none of the none of the truckers in space kind of there was a bunch of different contentious kind of like, yeah, because of this. But for me it's hard to know. Yeah. That the the truckers and space stuff wasn't really a part of O'Bannon's script.

00:16:49:22 - 00:16:56:23

Cullen

That O'Bannon's script was a lot more kind of 2001 esque where, you know, everything was super clean and science fiction and.

00:16:57:02 - 00:16:57:11

Clark

Yeah.

00:16:57:14 - 00:17:09:03

Cullen

They said, we need the audience to relate to these characters. And so they kind of made them like these blue collar, you know, the tow freighter people that that work in space and hate their jobs.

00:17:09:11 - 00:17:38:01

Clark

Well, that and that's huge And I think that's that that decision to do that I think speaks to how it kind of used different language but how it's kind of relate people, even though it's in this different universe, it feels grounded and doesn't feel so removed. And I think, you know, around this time to a really important decision was made just and just to try to like improve it's like sell ability or you know that any of the characters genders could be anything.

00:17:38:01 - 00:17:52:13

Clark

And so this is where we start to have this flexibility, where Ripley could be played by a woman who, of course, ends up being played by Sigourney Weaver, ends up being, you know, sends her career into the stratosphere and a very.

00:17:52:13 - 00:17:54:11

Cullen

Iconic character for her to.

00:17:54:15 - 00:18:18:10

Clark

Like. Super iconic character. Yeah. So it's kind of like an interesting little bit of an origin story there. You know, I'm always intrigued by this thought, too. You know, Ridley Scott only had one film under his belt before this. Now he did a lot of commercials and his like like, I mean, huge in commercials. I think he's still like Scott free writer.

00:18:18:10 - 00:18:29:01

Clark

There's an arm of that. That's a commercial arm. Yeah. Like both he and his brother did a ton of commercials, obviously. And Ridley Scott shot the 1984 Apple commercial, which is kind of considered a.

00:18:29:01 - 00:18:30:02

Cullen

Very famous one. Yeah.

00:18:30:02 - 00:18:50:12

Clark

Yeah. One of the best commercials ever shot. So he came from that space. He did the Duelists. And I don't know if you've seen the Duelists, but boy, I couldn't imagine a movie more different than this one, frankly. Yeah. So I'm always kind of, you know, it's almost know in a certain sense. It's kind of surprising that Ridley, you wouldn't expect the director of the Duel as to jump to Alien.

00:18:50:12 - 00:19:13:06

Clark

First of all, just interesting then to have done such a great job with Alien. And then you look at how much alien shaped Ridley's career after that. Yeah, it's just kind of I just wonder, like what? You know, it's almost kind of a funny, like, parallel universe kind of thought experiment. Like what? What do you think Ridley would have been like as a director had he never touched Alien?

00:19:13:09 - 00:19:14:04

Clark

Yeah, Yeah.

00:19:14:14 - 00:19:35:15

Cullen

And he's almost I'm pretty sure he also, almost after signing on, almost left for something else at one point, not in production, but before production had started up. I think they had started started kind of doing the preproduction. And then there was another offer and he was like, Well, if we don't get this underway within like, you know, a few months, I'm probably going to go to that.

00:19:35:16 - 00:19:54:15

Cullen

Yeah. And I don't think it was like a threat, but I think it was more just like, I don't really want to work for it. Yeah. And then something happened and he wound up staying, But, but yeah, I think it's a good I mean, yeah, you can see this movie. It's in all of most of Ridley's work. I mean, especially he did Blade Runner a few years after this.

00:19:55:23 - 00:20:22:14

Cullen

And you can see that like there's a lot of theories that they take place in the same universe, even which I don't really think so, but I know they like little references and jokes. But, but yeah, I mean, this is to me it's it's a movie that really shows that like the power of production design and cinematography. I mean, I mean, again and, and we're probably going to compare a little bit as well with aliens just because they are kind of the two most popular.

00:20:22:14 - 00:20:47:02

Cullen

And there's a lot of people before aliens and a lot of people for Alien. So there's kind of a a divide there. I also prefer alien to aliens, but I really do like aliens. Yeah, but I think that that's one part of it that like and I love the production design of aliens too, but if you look at even just like the cinematography in Aliens, it's it's just it's a lot more brightly lit.

00:20:48:07 - 00:21:15:08

Cullen

I mean, it's lit more so like an action movie. Whereas Alien is purely horror in the way that it's it's you know, Derek Van Lot did such a fantastic job and incorporating these lights and incorporating this kind of horrifying ship into the way that he lit every scene and that every light is motivated from some part of this kind of technical hellhole, which I think is really, really fascinating.

00:21:15:23 - 00:21:52:01

Cullen

So, yeah, I think I think it's just kind of incredible that Derek Vincent kind of incorporated all of these. Um, you know, all the lights are motivated by the fact that there's this ship is this sort of industrial hellhole and is very imposing, and it's very clear that all of these aspects of production, from the production designer to the cinematographer, the direction to the costumes, you know, every single piece of that was working in unison to to create this vision, which, I mean, that's not like a surprising or uncommon thing in the film industry, but I think it's uncommon for it to be done this well.

00:21:52:12 - 00:21:52:21

Clark

Yeah.

00:21:52:21 - 00:22:11:02

Cullen

Where where you see, you know, especially once the ship self-destruct is kind of going off and there's the yellow lights and all that, and you've got Sigourney Weaver kind of running through the halls with the flamethrower. And it's like it just is so clear that everything was so perfectly thought out in terms of like how this movie's going to look.

00:22:11:08 - 00:22:13:22

Cullen

I know Ridley Scott did some extensive storyboards.

00:22:15:04 - 00:22:16:01

Clark

Right? Right.

00:22:16:01 - 00:22:35:11

Cullen

And so it's very clear that, yeah, that that from the get go, you know, when they're building the sets, when they were designing the light, when they were choosing the, you know, the shots and things like that, that, that they had thought through all these things, which I think is really remarkable. And I think it is why this movie looks so good and feels so, so good and scary.

00:22:36:00 - 00:22:36:09

Cullen

Um.

00:22:36:23 - 00:22:56:12

Clark

Well, it's I mean, in just a count I mean, the caliber of talent they have, first of all, I mean, I think it's just a, just a rare occasion where you get, you know, you have Ridley Scott, which of course, you know, he's proven himself to be one of the most art direction production design oriented directors, you know, alive working.

00:22:57:20 - 00:23:20:19

Clark

He's so focused on the photography of a film, and I think he cast the right actors in this film to allow him to focus on that. And, you know, you got to remember to, at least according to Ridley Scott, you know, this film originally had a budget of 4.2 million. And so, like you said, he storyboarded the entire thing, which he does himself, and he's a pretty damn good artist, and he is able to storyboard quite well.

00:23:21:04 - 00:23:49:06

Clark

He brings his storyboards in and they double the budget on the film to 8.2. So this film was made on a budget of $8.2 million and I think Wikipedia says 11. I think they're throwing in some marketing budget there. Yeah, but even for 79 $8.2 million for a film like this is Peanuts Man. And, you know, so you've got Ridley Scott, you've got H.R. Giger designing not just the alien, which of course, is iconic.

00:23:49:06 - 00:24:17:18

Clark

I mean, I don't think, you know, there's hardly a person in the world literally anywhere that wouldn't recognize the alien or xenomorph design. You have Ron Cobb and Chris Foss doing other kind of art concept artwork. I think Ron Cobb did a lot of that, like human spaceships and things. H.R. Giger did not just the alien, but he did the alien ship, the space jockey and the planet The Planetoid.

00:24:17:18 - 00:24:18:20

Cullen

26 Yeah.

00:24:18:20 - 00:24:35:12

Clark

And just that that, that and just H.R. Giger's designs are so kind of viscerally disturbing. It's such a strange combination of of scary and sexual and violent.

00:24:35:15 - 00:24:41:22

Cullen

And they, they really ingeniously kind of use the budget in the way that they design the sets to where it's like.

00:24:41:22 - 00:24:42:05

Clark

Yeah.

00:24:42:10 - 00:25:11:10

Cullen

You know, the Nostromo, for example, is is really just primarily two hallways. Yeah, it's the kind of like underbelly hallways that have the, you know, the grates and things like that, and then the upper and upper ones that are all like kind of cushiony. But what they've done is they've basically had it's almost like a U-shape so that you can film, you know, in all these different angles and make it look like it's 60 different parts of the ship while simultaneously really it's just one, you know, one little, little hallway.

00:25:12:10 - 00:25:27:09

Cullen

And so you'll once you've seen the movie enough, you kind of start to recognize like, oh, that's the exact same hallway. She was just coming down. Now she's just walking down the other way. But it's still like, I think it's such a brilliant use of such a small budget.

00:25:27:09 - 00:25:27:15

Clark

Yeah.

00:25:27:23 - 00:25:49:06

Cullen

And like you said, like, even in, you know, adjusted for inflation and kind of the the crazy budgets that movies get these days, this is still quite a small budget film. I mean, I don't have it right off the top of my head. Um, but I don't know what Star is. So Star Wars was made for 11 million.

00:25:50:10 - 00:26:11:11

Cullen

And so I think that and I don't know if that again, that's probably including marketing as well. But if you think about that, I mean, Star Wars, to me the charm of Star Wars was that it does sort of seem low budget. You know, it kind of had like a little like a bit of a homemade appeal to it, whereas this doesn't the budget doesn't show in this movie at all.

00:26:11:11 - 00:26:36:12

Cullen

This this feels like a movie that was made for, you know, 50 million. Yeah. Upwards of and I think, again, that just that that is all down to the way that people use the budget and how Ridley Scott decided to use this this money and kind of lead this movie to be really, really really just fantastically efficient in its production.

00:26:36:22 - 00:26:45:20

Cullen

And I think that that's kind of a a word I would use for it is that it's incredibly efficient. It doesn't seem like there was much waste or excess. Um.

00:26:46:09 - 00:27:09:06

Clark

Well, there certainly isn't in the storytelling, right? Yeah. I mean, that's one of the things is that, you know, it's the story is, is really it gets right to the point. Does it read beat around the bush It's I mean it's basically it's a horror film, right? It's like the haunted house kind of, you know, scary, scary dark house movie and yeah, I mean, just imagine.

00:27:09:06 - 00:27:53:16

Clark

Just imagine this exact same plot. Just imagine this exact same story. But it's like no production design, boring alien design or monster design. And there's a million of these films. Yeah. Every every other every other horror film is this film without all of these things that we've already discussed that really. And so it's, you know, when I think of a film that illustrates, too, if you're a fan of cinema or if you're a wannabe filmmaker or you are a filmmaker and you're looking, you know, just kind of to be reminded of the power of the tools available, available to you as a filmmaker looking at this film and just realizing how much story you can

00:27:53:16 - 00:28:24:22

Clark

convey through production design and art direction, It's just mind blowing to me. And and so I'm always blown away by that. But I think we've we've like talked talked about that we could go on and on like you said, we could make it such a long. But let's give a little love to the cast too, though, because yeah, because you know, if it weren't I think if it weren't for the cast, if it weren't for these really like uniformly excellent performances, in my opinion, across the board.

00:28:25:05 - 00:28:45:23

Clark

You know, Ridley wouldn't have been able to focus on the photography and the production design. And I think that's part of his secret of his success, is that he cast really good people. He didn't have to worry about them. They gave great performances and he was able to do his thing. I mean, it sounds like to me Sigourney Weaver is your favorite.

00:28:45:23 - 00:29:01:21

Cullen

Oh, 100%. I mean, I actually I just realized that I mentioned Sigourney Weaver in our last episode. Oh, yeah. We were talking as they. DUNAWAY And then I hadn't even planned to do this yet, but it's gone so wrong. I mean, I don't know why Sigourney Weaver isn't in every movie. That was one of the notes that rewatching is.

00:29:02:06 - 00:29:20:10

Cullen

But like, I don't know why she and it's bizarre to me that for an actor of her caliber and how great she is in everything that she's in, that she and I know she's in Paul Schrader's new movie, which is is. But again, like, I'm just really shocked that she's not in more um.

00:29:20:13 - 00:29:31:09

Clark

Well, I mean, well, okay, I can see how you would want her to be in more for sure. I get it, but. Well, isn't she? And isn't she going to be in Cameron's, like, further Avatar films.

00:29:31:09 - 00:29:33:02

Cullen

Yes, she is in those. Yeah. Yeah.

00:29:33:12 - 00:29:45:16

Clark

So there's that and I don't think you can get much bigger than that. Right? That's going to be some of the biggest budget, most you know. But she's 73, so come on, you got to give her some time to spend her life right? Yeah.

00:29:45:18 - 00:29:46:01

Cullen

Yeah.

00:29:47:09 - 00:30:08:19

Clark

But she and but I feel like she I mean, look, you know, growing up in the eighties, I feel like I remember her being almost everywhere in the eighties, and maybe she slowed down, but, you know, she does Alien Now, before that, she had been in just a couple of films and I think it had really tiny. I mean, I think her first film was Annie Hall.

00:30:09:04 - 00:30:25:20

Clark

She's almost like a like background or something, right? I mean, she's extremely small and then alien, as we all know, made her a star. And then Ghostbusters just a few years later. I mean, I remember that from my childhood. She was like, you know, that was huge performance in that film.

00:30:26:12 - 00:30:31:18

Cullen

And she did Aliens. And then, of course, she was in the first for Alien. Yeah, yeah.

00:30:31:19 - 00:30:38:09

Clark

And she was in the first four aliens and she's in Ghostbusters two. And I remember going to see Gorillas in the Mist in 88.

00:30:38:10 - 00:30:39:15

Cullen

Oh yeah, in the theater.

00:30:40:06 - 00:31:03:10

Clark

I remember seeing that at a theater. So and she's Galaxy Quest is another one of my favorite performances of hers. I think that's a 99. I mean, she is. And here she is. You know, she did two films in 2022. She was in Ghostbusters Afterlife, which is, I think, just a cameo in 21. So she's around and she's going to be in the next two Avatar films.

00:31:03:10 - 00:31:04:02

Clark

But I don't know.

00:31:04:02 - 00:31:05:14

Cullen

Then I that's the new. SCHRADER Yeah.

00:31:06:06 - 00:31:18:23

Clark

That's going to be like the, like CGI version of version of her. I guess it's like a mocap performance, is it? But still, you know. Yeah, but, but yeah, I mean, come on, dude. She's 73. You know, maybe she's like, I guess, I mean.

00:31:18:23 - 00:31:35:21

Cullen

Is more and more. So I just I'm surprised that in the, you know, like, especially in the shoot, like she just seems like she so great would be Yeah. Like, like a a bigger than an Angelina Jolie or something because she's just so, so versatile and such a talented actress.

00:31:36:00 - 00:31:50:23

Clark

And I think it's a credit to her. I mean, I just don't think that she's played that game. You know, she's just not been the tabloid shade. I mean, look, she's been married to the same man since like 84. Yeah. She doesn't have all of these scandals. And wacky.

00:31:50:23 - 00:31:52:09

Cullen

Apparently, she's a joy to work with.

00:31:52:14 - 00:32:09:00

Clark

Yeah. Yeah. So so I think that's a big part of why, you know, she's just not on the cover of every. Well, I don't even know if they really have Enquirer magazines nowadays. Now it's, you know, Instagram and Tik Tok and everything but TMZ. But yeah, I just think that she stays off of that stuff.

00:32:09:00 - 00:32:09:20

Cullen

But yeah, but.

00:32:10:01 - 00:32:28:13

Clark

There's other really good performances here, too. I mean, so one of my favorite people is in this film and his I think he's fantastic in it. I think he's fantastic in almost everything. And he character actor, to be sure, although he did have a lead role in Paris, Texas. But Harry Dean Stanton, you got to give it up to Harry Dean Stanton Yeah.

00:32:29:00 - 00:32:29:09

Cullen

I mean.

00:32:30:00 - 00:33:01:22

Clark

I feel like Harry Dean was like 55 somehow when he made this film in 79 and and somehow lived to 2017. I feel like he was already ancient in this movie. I kept seeing him in movie after movie after movie, I remember. So there was a like a like a I don't even know what you call this. It's a documentary film about a couple rock bands that I think was made in the early 2000s, I think, called Dig.

00:33:02:11 - 00:33:22:01

Clark

And it was a documentary that followed two bands that were like friends and then kind of had a falling out and it was the Dante Warhols, if you've ever heard of them, and the Brian Jonestown Massacre and Andy Warhol got pretty big and had a lot of hits, and so you might have heard of them. Brian Jonestown Massacre, maybe not so much.

00:33:23:03 - 00:33:53:17

Clark

They didn't have as much commercial success anyway, so this documentary is following these bands around there in L.A. and they're trying to get big and everything. And I was so there's a scene in that film where there is like this just like a one of the band members or one of the people at the party were just like filming everybody getting wasted right in this apartment, in this party with these two rock bands and the camera like Pans by this bedroom.

00:33:54:10 - 00:34:01:09

Clark

And Harry Dean Stanton is just sitting there partying with these people, and you're just like, Your dude is everywhere.

00:34:01:13 - 00:34:03:00

Cullen

He's like, What the hell is he doing there?

00:34:03:02 - 00:34:04:17

Clark

He's like 80 years old.

00:34:05:05 - 00:34:06:15

Cullen

And it's hilarious.

00:34:06:15 - 00:34:23:09

Clark

Partying with these two like rock bands. And it was and it was just so it wasn't like he wasn't the focus. Nobody even, like, paid any attention or did or said anything. But you know what I mean? It was just somebody kind of panning the camera. I had to like, pause it and and be like, Wait a minute, that's Harry Dean Stanton.

00:34:23:13 - 00:34:28:12

Clark

Holy crap. But I don't know. I just want to say I just want to give him some love because I think.

00:34:28:12 - 00:34:29:23

Cullen

Oh, he's great, he's fantastic.

00:34:29:23 - 00:34:37:19

Clark

He was amazing. I think he's amazing in this film. The guy is a legend, an icon. And so anyway, I just but I.

00:34:37:19 - 00:34:39:21

Cullen

Also love Yaphet Kotto on this.

00:34:39:22 - 00:34:40:19

Clark

Yep, he's great.

00:34:40:22 - 00:35:21:15

Cullen

Um, and of course, Ian in home. Yeah. Who was this? He. He was known in England but had kind of this kind of made him a name in the U.S.. Tom Skerritt, Of course. Yeah. Ron Cartwright There's. Yeah. I mean. John Hurt. Yeah. Oh, John Hurt as well. Yeah. There's one of these cases where you just have these really, really, really talented actors and you can just tell, like during the dinner scenes and, you know, when they're just all kind of talking over each other, but they're, they're just a really, really strong, strongly performed cat and shows you the value of of getting incredible performers.

00:35:22:03 - 00:35:38:23

Clark

And and I just I want to go back to Ian because I think his performance couple of things here. First of all, I think, you know, we go back to the writing process. We talk about Dan Bannon and the kind of the the the nugget in his script that got this film kind of on the track to be made.

00:35:38:23 - 00:36:04:13

Clark

Was that was that the alien like put it you put an egg inside, you effectively like raping its prey and then you would have another like the alien would like explode out of you, Right. Yeah. But I think when, when Brandywine got it and, and were rewriting it, they that's where they introduced this idea of the android that would be on the ship.

00:36:04:22 - 00:36:14:14

Clark

And that was such a stroke of genius because you know, the plot doesn't have a lot of, you know, of, of mechanization, you know. Yeah. It's not.

00:36:15:02 - 00:36:15:20

Cullen

Moving pieces.

00:36:15:20 - 00:36:35:00

Clark

Yeah, yeah. Not a lot of moving pieces. It's super straight, streamlined. But this one thing, though, adds so much, it adds so much texture and it's such a surprise. And it's a surprise from such a different direction. Right. Because you're focused on alien, alien, alien, alien, alien. And you kind of get a sense it's like, okay, this is the corporate guy.

00:36:35:00 - 00:36:53:23

Clark

This is the guy who's got his own agenda. He's not out there to, like, help or save the crew. He's obviously got an ulterior motive. But when he gets his head knocked out, like when he tries to kill Ripley and he tries to kill Ripley in such an odd and strange way. Yeah. That stands out to you.

00:36:54:04 - 00:37:06:22

Cullen

So. Oh, my God. I remember when me and my friend you always do that with Mag is like, not literally like God just always roll up the It was be like any time you fall asleep at a sleepover or something. One of us with her, all of them.

00:37:07:16 - 00:37:08:22

Clark

Oh, my gosh, dude, it.

00:37:08:22 - 00:37:09:11

Cullen

Sounds like a.

00:37:09:16 - 00:37:13:02

Clark

Joke because it's not even an effective way to kill somebody.

00:37:13:02 - 00:37:14:18

Cullen

No, but it's just so robotic.

00:37:14:20 - 00:37:34:14

Clark

In such it, right? It doesn't make any sense. So just for those for those of you who haven't seen it a while, what he is, he rolls up a magazine and like and like, sticks it, try to stick it in Ripley's mouth while she's laying down. And it's like, well, she could still breathe through her nose. So it's not like it's and it's not in her throat.

00:37:34:14 - 00:38:06:13

Clark

It's not choking her. And it just and and it's funny because in performance, he goes from seeming like very human, right to seeming so robotic like, but it works like Yeah. And, and it's just and when he gets his head knocked off, you're just like I mean, I remember watching like that's something that stands out so much to me and especially when they, like, reconnect him and he's talking and it's like all his blood is like that milk.

00:38:06:13 - 00:38:07:17

Cullen

The milk. Yeah. Yeah.

00:38:07:18 - 00:38:26:03

Clark

And his voice is kind of got this effervescence like to it. They've, you know, they've, they've, they've manipulated the audio there. And I remember honestly that almost being like more creepy and that image standing sticking with me even more than the alien. Honest.

00:38:26:04 - 00:38:27:00

Cullen

Yeah. Yeah.

00:38:27:05 - 00:38:28:09

Clark

I was just like, no.

00:38:28:09 - 00:38:36:02

Cullen

And it's such a, you know, it's such a that ingenious practical effect of just had he stick his head through the, through the table.

00:38:36:02 - 00:38:39:15

Clark

That's part of it. But if you notice, if you notice they do have a mole.

00:38:40:04 - 00:38:42:03

Cullen

Yeah, they Do when she's trying to put it up.

00:38:42:03 - 00:38:45:02

Clark

Yeah. So they do have a mold and it looks horrible.

00:38:45:13 - 00:38:47:17

Cullen

It does in the cut. Does not do it justice.

00:38:47:17 - 00:39:14:21

Clark

No. And it's like you can tell they knew that it didn't look good and they tried to keep it on screen as long as possible, and they covered it with as much of that milk blood as they possibly could. So you wouldn't notice. But if I may, and this is one of the things that happens on $8 million budget, apparently the story is, is that they you know, obviously they took like a life cast, a real mold of Ian's face and head and it was they overdrive it or something like what sort just shrunk it shrunk Yeah.

00:39:15:00 - 00:39:25:01

Clark

So it doesn't look anything like him. I mean, like not at all. But, but the film has done so well and you buy everything else to such an extent that you don't even care, you know?

00:39:25:01 - 00:39:30:22

Cullen

Yeah, it's kind of just a little laugh. And then you then immediately after, it's like, Oh my God, this is really uncomfortable.

00:39:30:23 - 00:39:48:10

Clark

I feel like the film earns it. It's like, Hey, you know what you get? You get like one area, you know? Yeah. And in hindsight to I think like there are, there are a couple spots where the alien seems a little like you can see a little bit of the guy in the suit in there.

00:39:48:15 - 00:39:51:05

Cullen

You can tell the suit was not easy to move around in.

00:39:51:21 - 00:39:52:19

Clark

Yeah. And they like.

00:39:52:19 - 00:40:02:00

Cullen

Especially I mean even in the, in the when, when Dallas is in the vent and it just I love that it just kind of puts its arms out. You can't really jump but it just kind of goes for a because.

00:40:02:08 - 00:40:21:00

Clark

Yeah and it but but it's you know it's kind of like with Jaws, right? It's like with Jaws, the mechanical shark sucks. It doesn't work. So you have to show it very briefly. It's same kind of now. Now, this doesn't suck. Don't get me wrong, the alien design is extraordinary. I mean, especially in the head and everything, but.

00:40:21:03 - 00:40:34:03

Clark

But it was still it was like, well, it's a guy in a suit is how they had to execute it. It's not like they had CGI and they didn't have budget for a Stan Winston puppet and things, which I think is what they I think is what they did in Aliens. Aliens.

00:40:34:20 - 00:40:35:18

Cullen

And Winston did all that.

00:40:35:19 - 00:40:36:20

Clark

And Winston worked on.

00:40:36:20 - 00:40:41:07

Cullen

That and they had a lot more variable suits, flexible suit, so people could.

00:40:41:07 - 00:40:41:22

Clark

Run a whole.

00:40:41:22 - 00:40:46:04

Cullen

Difference. And things like cold different, which I think that it works in the movie's favor because.

00:40:46:04 - 00:40:46:14

Clark

I still.

00:40:46:14 - 00:40:54:03

Cullen

Think that of any of the alien movies and the Prometheus movies and all that, this is still the scariest one of all of them.

00:40:54:11 - 00:41:00:00

Clark

And I think it's the best iteration of the face or of the head of the alien, because it actually changes the.

00:41:00:02 - 00:41:05:05

Cullen

Yeah, the because aliens, it's not as smooth, it's rougher. There's like almost a rib element to the head.

00:41:05:10 - 00:41:08:10

Clark

The dome changes. Yeah, all kinds of things.

00:41:08:11 - 00:41:09:05

Cullen

But I think that.

00:41:09:05 - 00:41:10:03

Clark

This is the is.

00:41:10:05 - 00:41:13:22

Cullen

This, this is the scariest that the alien is in any of these movies.

00:41:14:09 - 00:41:15:04

Clark

Because it's the and I.

00:41:15:04 - 00:41:36:02

Cullen

Think it's also the, the, the, the benefit too is that it's because it's, it's got this like mystique and unknown aspect where people have no idea what they're dealing with. And that's the part of the genius too is that the alien, if you're actually watching the movie, the alien doesn't actually kill its first victim other than the chest first are seen until over halfway through the movie, Right?

00:41:36:05 - 00:41:42:03

Cullen

It's about I think I think it's about 59 minutes when they're actually first going around and trying to find it with the neck.

00:41:42:03 - 00:41:43:17

Clark

Is is it Harry Dean that dies.

00:41:43:17 - 00:41:55:10

Cullen

First with the. Yeah, yeah. He gets in there. He's in that big and I but I also I mean that's another element of production design too is just like that scene when he gets killed. Just like why is there water dripping down on this spaceship?

00:41:55:15 - 00:41:57:02

Clark

Why are there chains, wire.

00:41:57:02 - 00:42:16:09

Cullen

Chains so unbelievably evocative and hellish? And yeah, it's really, really, really like I mean, now I just always want to put like, make this movie of there's one adjective for it. It's wet. Yeah. I mean, it's it's just everything, but it works so well. Everything's just so wet and has this it's very textured and just grimy and gross.

00:42:16:09 - 00:42:38:13

Cullen

And I love that. It's it's just again, it just goes back to the whole production design and worldbuilding element of it. And it's I mean, again, like we said, I don't I'm not a big franchise guy and stuff like that. But if someone and this is one of the things that I wrote in my notes, but if I was asked by some big studio like, you know what you direct any movie you want, but it has to be within a preexisting franchise.

00:42:38:13 - 00:42:42:03

Cullen

I would 100 times out of 100 times say that I wouldn't want to do an alien movie.

00:42:42:17 - 00:42:43:14

Clark

Um, yeah, it would.

00:42:43:14 - 00:43:00:20

Cullen

Because this is just yeah, because there's just a, there's so much that you can do. Um, I think that it's such a perfect blend where it's like, you don't really need to add the horror because the, the idea of, of this universe is scary enough that it, it really, it all just works so well together.

00:43:01:17 - 00:43:21:12

Clark

It would be tough. I feel like it would be really difficult. And obviously there has been a big challenge trying to follow this up because it's like, yeah, yeah, I mean, you imagine just a met. I know it's like you can't really, but you know, imagine a totally like virgin naive audience. You have no idea. You've not seen the alien, you don't know what its form is, you have no idea.

00:43:22:06 - 00:43:42:12

Clark

And you've never seen any of this production design, the ships, the planetoid, you know, none of this stuff. I mean, look, just look at how compelling the film is to watch after, you know, everything about it, after you know, what the alien looks like and what it does, you know, all these things. And it's there's still so much visual density that it's so compelling to watch.

00:43:42:17 - 00:44:04:14

Clark

I mean, now imagine watching this for the first time in a theater. You're an audience in 1979. You can't replicate that. Like now. There have been so many films now that have the Alien or Xenomorph, you know, in it to some varying degree. Right? And we all know what it does that, you know, what do you do with that?

00:44:05:16 - 00:44:17:16

Clark

So, you know, it's like as fun as it would be. And trust me if someone offered me a budget and said, go make an alien movie, I'd sure as heck try. But boy, I would be really put to the test to think of how can I make.

00:44:18:07 - 00:44:40:07

Cullen

Strangely enough, one of the best pieces of media I think from this franchise is and one of the ones that actually used the elements of Alien, I think fantastically was and I don't I mean, I have like video game consoles. I've played video games all my life, but I'm not really a big I wouldn't consider myself a huge gamer in that sense.

00:44:40:07 - 00:44:45:10

Cullen

I don't I don't play a ton of them, but a few years ago, this game called Alien Isolation came out.

00:44:45:10 - 00:44:45:18

Clark

Oh yeah.

00:44:46:09 - 00:45:04:01

Cullen

And my God, is that I think that I genuinely think that that's one of the best games ever made. And it they did something. I think they did something really smart, which is that it's it's the plot of the game is about Ripley's daughter trying to basically find out what happened to her mom.

00:45:04:07 - 00:45:06:00

Clark

No so she was going to played it.

00:45:06:20 - 00:45:22:23

Cullen

I won't yeah I won't spoil it but yeah so she's she's she's basically it's about her which in that is something that I think is really smart because it's not something it feels shoehorned in. It feels like that would make sense as a movie and as a plot or as something a character would do. Of course, this character is going to be like, Well, what the hell happened to my mom?

00:45:23:06 - 00:46:03:20

Cullen

Yeah. And so and you know, what they did in the game is that you you have all of the kind of esthetic of of alien. You've got the massive ships that are dimly lit and industrial, but you also have those like cushy kind of very seventies looking, you know, comfort spaces like the kitchens and things like that. Um, and so and I've never seen a game based off of a movie that has better captured the feeling of like there's moments in that game where you're under a table and the alarms are wailing and there's smoke filling a room and you can hear the alien crawling above you in event and you have to turn off

00:46:03:20 - 00:46:15:20

Cullen

your flashlight and you've got to hold a button to hold your breath. And it's like, I've never played a game that has better encapsulated. I've also very rarely have I played a game where I've been like, okay, I'm going to put that away tonight because I'm my heart is.

00:46:15:20 - 00:46:18:12

Clark

Sounding too stressful. Yeah, So it's fantastic.

00:46:18:12 - 00:46:50:08

Cullen

And I think that it's it it proves that there is still, you know, a lot of value in in that world, whereas you see something like Star Wars or things like that where it seems like they can never really get out of this cycle of kind of telling the same story over and over again. Um, I think that there's a pretty nice, you know, not backlog, but I think that there's, there's a lot of things that if people are brave enough, if studios are brave enough to put the money towards doing some different stuff, which is ultimately what Prometheus was, right?

00:46:50:08 - 00:47:25:06

Cullen

I mean, Prometheus was something that had had, you know, of course, existed in the same universe of Alien and had connections of like that. This was sort of a prequel that would lead to the events of aliens. But other than that, it's got next to nothing to do with it. There's no alien creature in in Prometheus. And yet I thought that one, you know, when it came out and I've watched it since, I still think it's not, you know, a perfect movie by any means and it's not has amazing as Alien but I've always enjoyed watching it when I have I mean it's always a movie that I've been like, you know what the world

00:47:25:06 - 00:47:36:14

Cullen

of this, this movie, the universe of this takes place. And it's just so fascinating that I'm kind of happy to to watch anything or read anything or play anything that takes place. Yeah, in that setting.

00:47:36:20 - 00:48:08:17

Clark

I usually am too. I'm sometimes disappointed that the potential is not realized, but yes. Yeah, but yeah. Yeah. And speaking of potential being realized, I mean, you know, I, I was surprised by this tiny little tidbit. You know, we talked about how small the budget was on this film. Mm. It made $185 million. Man. Yeah, I know. And, and back then, I mean, I don't know what that would be in 70, $79 to 20, $22, but I'm going to guess that that's probably over 500 million.

00:48:08:17 - 00:48:09:07

Clark

You know.

00:48:09:23 - 00:48:12:13

Cullen

Probably I mean I'm trying to with the math.

00:48:12:13 - 00:48:20:21

Clark

Yeah. I mean it's it's a total guess, but I'm going to I'm going to say at least 500, maybe 500 to $700 million. So, you know, huge hit.

00:48:22:04 - 00:48:28:15

Cullen

So be the four times the dollar in 1979 was worth $4 today. So yeah, it'd be over 500 million.

00:48:28:20 - 00:48:29:04

Clark

Yeah.

00:48:29:04 - 00:48:32:06

Cullen

Okay. Could be close. Close to close to 800 million which is.

00:48:33:07 - 00:48:33:20

Clark

Yes.

00:48:34:04 - 00:48:35:11

Cullen

I mean that's, that's, that's no.

00:48:35:12 - 00:48:35:21

Clark

Joke.

00:48:35:21 - 00:48:36:07

Cullen

But.

00:48:36:12 - 00:48:57:10

Clark

Yeah, that's a box office blowout. Yeah. And I don't know what I'd be curious to know what films that were it was competing with in 79. But and so it's no wonder, I mean that, that you know, that Ridley's career and Sigourney Weaver's career, especially those two exploded and that, you know, Alien became such a franchise and.

00:48:57:10 - 00:49:08:05

Cullen

The irony, too, is that there's that classic story about James Cameron wanting to make aliens and and the Fox executives not wanting him to do it, having no interest in doing a sequel to Alien. And then he.

00:49:08:17 - 00:49:10:12

Clark

Went, what was that story idea?

00:49:10:12 - 00:49:42:08

Cullen

So there's yeah, there's this twist, this story about after after I don't know why since it was such a success that they wouldn't have to make a sequel, but for some reason that the Fox executives had no interest in doing a sequel to Alien, I think that they were worried that if they did a sequel, that the budget would just be way too, because it's a, you know, large sci fi and um, and so when James Cameron did Ala Terminator, they obviously were very happy with that and said, You can pitch us any movie you want, it just can't be an alien sequel because I've been talking about how much you wanted to do on

00:49:42:23 - 00:49:43:18

Cullen

this and they had.

00:49:43:18 - 00:49:45:23

Clark

Even written a script he'd probably even or Yeah.

00:49:45:23 - 00:50:04:04

Cullen

They said, and they said, Yeah, they said Pitches, anything can't be an alien movie. And so he went in to a boardroom with all these executives and wrote on the chalkboard or on the whiteboard, he wrote Alien and then put a dollar sign after it. And that's how they got it. Got the name Aliens, and that was how he pitched it, and they decided to give it to him.

00:50:04:13 - 00:50:11:02

Clark

So interesting what was the budget on Aliens? Do we know? I want to see the aliens. Let's look that up real quick.

00:50:11:03 - 00:50:16:05

Cullen

Budget becomes 18.5 million. So honestly, not not that high either.

00:50:16:07 - 00:50:18:12

Clark

Yeah, that's actually not a lot of money.

00:50:18:12 - 00:50:24:00

Cullen

And then let's see what it got in in box office was 183 million approximately.

00:50:24:01 - 00:50:28:07

Clark

So actually less financially successful than the first.

00:50:28:15 - 00:50:30:05

Cullen

Yeah. Which is interesting.

00:50:30:05 - 00:50:57:22

Clark

Which is interesting. Wow. Huh. You know, I wouldn't have guessed that. But I think it does kind of show how how important it was that the idea was novel, that there were so many novel ideas. That's not in the story, but in these details of like the Android and the alien type and how the alien would, you know, would invade a person's body and burst out.

00:50:57:22 - 00:51:11:06

Clark

I mean, again, I just we take all these things for granted now. It's like, well, duh, that the chest bursts are seen as one of the most iconic scenes in all of cinema. And the alien itself is such an iconic design.

00:51:12:21 - 00:51:20:18

Cullen

So, yeah, I mean, I think that that's I think that would be in its favor is that it's, it's that alien had this advantage of being totally groundbreaking.

00:51:21:02 - 00:51:34:01

Clark

And it's still a better movie it's I yes I love aliens but this is a better movie. Ridley Scott knocks it out of the park. He was in his prime. He was in his hometown and Shepperton Studios and yeah, yeah, he just people always talk.

00:51:34:01 - 00:52:06:15

Cullen

About how how iconic the you know, all the lines are from aliens, things like that, which they are. I mean there's a ton of quotable line man never get away from here, you bitch. Yeah, all those. All those great good. Don't get me wrong, aliens is is a lot of fun, but there is nothing to me that sums up the feeling of these movies more than a low camera darling backwards looking up at Sigourney Weaver as she slowly walks to the hallway with a flamethrower and steam juts out of vents, Designer alarms go off and there's the flash.

00:52:06:15 - 00:52:23:23

Clark

We talk about that. I want to talk about that for a second because, you know, of course, every time you watch a film, especially one with so much visual density, you see new things. I was so impressed with the camera and how it moves in this film. The camera is almost never stationary. There's very few very few static shots.

00:52:24:02 - 00:52:26:00

Cullen

Excellent mix of Dolby and handheld.

00:52:26:06 - 00:52:29:00

Clark

And there's a lot more handheld in this than I remembered.

00:52:29:09 - 00:52:31:03

Cullen

Mm hmm. Yeah, it's Odyssey. Yeah.

00:52:31:09 - 00:53:08:08

Clark

And and I think Ridley was operating for maybe 70% of the time that the film was being shot. It's kind of roughly what I've heard, but there is just it's so beautifully lyrically moving. It's just it and it's never, if you notice, it's never just moving or almost never just moving kind of on a single plane. There's always some kind of like flourish to it that it's like if we're going to pan over to the left, it's also going to kind of like pull back at the end of that movement.

00:53:08:08 - 00:53:11:18

Clark

There's always some kind of complexity.

00:53:11:18 - 00:53:20:18

Cullen

Or even just like the shots on a dolly in the hallway and, you know, you could just do a dolly shot in the hallway, but then it winds up wrapping around a corner for a second.

00:53:20:18 - 00:53:44:10

Clark

That's what I mean. There's like this there's always like a little touch to that, that that makes it feel more organic. Mm hmm. And that makes it feel part of what you're part of the space that you're in and see. And it works so fantastically well. And, you know, it's I would have loved to, you know, in maybe the DP here and again, we talked about Ridley.

00:53:44:16 - 00:54:07:08

Clark

You know, I'm sure Ridley had a lot to say about how it was shot. And he operated quite a bit, even himself. But I would have, you know, if our if the DP on this film and it is Derek Van Lente, he's the Canadian DP you know he only made a few other films and I think the other films he made, he only did some special effects like second unit type stuff or something.

00:54:08:20 - 00:54:21:02

Clark

I think this movie, Dragonslayer, which was a 1981 film I've never seen, it was either. And I think it's lost money. It was I think it was a Walt Disney film is the only I mean, he.

00:54:21:02 - 00:54:33:15

Cullen

Clearly had a had plenty of opportunity because both Cameron asked him to do aliens and Ridley Scott asked him to do Blade Runner. Yeah I think that I think that know Derek Valiant likely just wanted to go into commercials.

00:54:33:23 - 00:54:55:06

Clark

Which is where he came from. And that's, you know, Ridley Scott having come from commercials. He had actually worked with Derek. He brought Derek to shoot this. And it seems to me, as far as I can tell, because he he lived until 2010. He did. He just worked in I can only speculate as to why maybe he didn't like the long, strenuous shoots of feature films.

00:54:55:12 - 00:55:06:16

Clark

Yeah, you know, I'm sure he probably he was very successful and maybe, look, you can make a ton of money in commercials. I mean, it's huge money in commercials, especially during the day back then got, you know.

00:55:06:17 - 00:55:14:10

Cullen

I mean, even now, I know a lot of people who who are DPS, who they do features for the artistry of it and then the commercials to make money.

00:55:14:16 - 00:55:34:12

Clark

And it's an actor. Actors can be the same way. I mean, that was like bread and butter. I know. So many actors when I was in that game that that would be your bread and butter, man. You'd go and you'd do a couple commercials and you'd make enough to live on, and then you'd go and, you know, audition for feature films and, you know, legit TV and everything like that, that's kind of gone away.

00:55:34:13 - 00:55:55:03

Clark

That's a topic for a whole different day. But that's a lot of that has gone to the wayside as more and more commercials have gone nonunion. I don't know what's like what that's like on the crew side, but I'm, you know, any who. But I guess the point is, is that I would have loved to have seen a Derek Van Lente shot aliens.

00:55:55:03 - 00:56:03:12

Clark

That would have been very interesting. But yeah but that he and Ridley team up to really just shoot the crap out of this thing you know we had never talked about this.

00:56:03:12 - 00:56:04:01

Cullen

Beautiful.

00:56:04:06 - 00:56:26:15

Clark

Every shot is really extraordinary. We haven't talked about it, but I want to bring it up before before we run out of time, because I think it's a superb score. The music in This is Amazing. A Jerry Goldsmith composed the music for Alien and it's like, I mean, this is actually one of the soundtracks that I put on and just listen to for me too.

00:56:26:15 - 00:56:53:21

Cullen

I write this a lot. I mean, I yeah, it's like there was again when I said at the beginning of the episode that I've stolen so much from this movie and that like, even when I, I did a movie five years ago that was like an experimental movie about, you know, the sun disappearing. And I still wrote like an entire, you know, ten pages of the script to Jerry Goldsmith's alien score, even when it's got nothing to do with, you know, aliens or sci fi or anything like that.

00:56:53:21 - 00:57:20:11

Cullen

This movie somehow is still finding its way into my work. But then I think probably the only unfortunate aspect of the movie is that if you get and I would highly, highly recommend getting the soundtrack, you can listen to it on YouTube, you can budget on Apple Music or you can buy it. Yeah, but there's a really beautiful, sweet, like opening kind of overture that that Jerry Goldsmith composed that isn't used in the movie, but it's really, really spectacular.

00:57:20:11 - 00:57:29:07

Cullen

And it actually the cues from that were actually reused in Alien covenant. I think that's the first time that they were actually used on screen in an alien movie.

00:57:29:13 - 00:57:53:17

Clark

And you'll have to get to the complete edition just as a heads up if you do want to. Yeah. So what you're referring to is the main so that that is not included in the original soundtrack, which is only about 30 some odd minutes long. But there is a complete edition that's been released and that does have, I think, something like half a dozen or ten like alternate takes that not just for the main title but for some of the other tracks.

00:57:53:17 - 00:58:18:02

Clark

Yeah, And it's interesting because you kind of get a little bit of a glimpse into how some of those ideas changed at the direction of Ridley or Brandywine. But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there's so many different aspects we can talk about, but just because you mentioned it, that main title, the the opening of this film is one of the coolest font treatments I've ever seen.

00:58:18:02 - 00:58:18:17

Cullen

Oh, yes.

00:58:19:00 - 00:58:21:00

Clark

I, I mean and it's what.

00:58:21:02 - 00:58:22:22

Cullen

Inspired so much to.

00:58:23:01 - 00:58:45:00

Clark

What's what blows my mind is that we basically have like a slow pan across, like a matte painting. It's all it is. There's like almost nothing going on, but it's a really nice matte painting. And we have this extraordinary alien. The fight is coming into view and it's just it's. It's just beauty.

00:58:45:03 - 00:58:46:04

Cullen

One line at a time.

00:58:46:10 - 00:58:46:19

Clark

Yeah.

00:58:47:03 - 00:59:10:01

Cullen

I mean, I've again, I've, I've again ripped from that so many times to like the amount of times that I've been doing a title sequence or something and I've been like, oh you know what, I'm going to have it come in, you know, one piece of the text at a time. And yeah, it's and then, you know, it's really there's so much iconography in this movie that I think people because it's such a classic that people don't really recognize.

00:59:10:14 - 00:59:11:02

Clark

You take it for.

00:59:11:02 - 00:59:13:18

Cullen

Granted. Inspiring It is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:59:14:03 - 00:59:30:00

Clark

Yeah. I think it's an easy film to take for granted. And I think this just happens. It's like if you're the rolling Stones, right? It's like, Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, you're the Rolling Stones. Like, what could they do now? They've like, you know, it's like you've made Alien. Well, okay, like, you know, you just take it for granted.

00:59:30:00 - 00:59:41:21

Clark

And so it's all these things that have kind of turned into entered the social consciousness, you know, entered pop culture and kind of just become part of who we are, that you take it for granted how how extraordinary these ideas were.

00:59:42:05 - 01:00:01:12

Cullen

Yeah. But I mean, again, from from old Lego stop motion, stop motion, uh, movies to high school movies to, you know, my first feature that I don't think that I'm ever going to stop watching this movie. I don't think I'm ever going to stop being. Yeah, completely You know, enthralled by it and stealing as much as I can.

01:00:01:18 - 01:00:18:20

Clark

And I and I hope and I hope I hope that they that they're able to go back and do something interesting again with it. You know, Alien Covenant 2017, that was the last film in the series. And there have been other things. There have been comics and novels, like you said, video games, which I'm going to have to check out.

01:00:18:20 - 01:00:24:23

Clark

I, I actually own that alien isolation game that you've referred to, but I just haven't found time to play it yet.

01:00:25:01 - 01:00:27:02

Cullen

But it's very, very good. I would recommend it. Yeah.

01:00:27:07 - 01:00:46:12

Clark

Yeah, I'll have to check that out. But yeah, I mean, on that note, you know, it's it was so fun to watch this movie again as I'm like and excited that you picked it and like, there's, like this tiny little part of me that's like, should I choose aliens next? I don't.

01:00:46:12 - 01:00:49:03

Cullen

Know. I don't know. The Herzog podcast or the.

01:00:49:03 - 01:00:56:10

Clark

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll just go through the whole series. No, no, no. But, but, but anyway. But yeah. Any other last words from you on this?

01:00:56:10 - 01:01:02:03

Cullen

No know, I mean, I'm just glad that again, this is a really fun one to talk about, so I'm glad that we we got around. Yeah.

01:01:02:06 - 01:01:22:19

Clark

Yeah. I've really enjoyed watching it again. I'm going to have to. It was just released or not just but recently released on 4K so I'm like halfway tempted to pick it up on 4K and check that out. But anyway, we'll take everybody for hanging in there with us and going along on our alien adventure. We will catch you next time.

01:01:23:03 - 01:01:27:03

Cullen

Yeah. Bye bye.

Episode - 059 - Billy DaMota

Billy DaMota

Hey, it's me, Billy Dee of your giant M and JQ stores, where you can find the best prices on men's and women's shoes and boots in Southern California.

00:00:19:05 - 00:00:42:05

Clark

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. I'm Clark Coffey and always with me is Mr. Cullen McPhatter. And for the first time ever and I'm super excited about this, we have a third person on the podcast. We actually have a guest and I am super excited for this. Billy Mota is a casting director, writer, director, producer.

00:00:42:14 - 00:01:00:23

Clark

He was born and raised in San Francisco, California, where he began his career in the arts as a rock and roll guitar player. But we always, all of us, have aspirations or dreams of that. At some point I feel like he moved to L.A. in the mid seventies only to find that disco would put a damper on his live music aspirations.

00:01:01:09 - 00:01:17:17

Clark

After bouncing from what a dead end retail job to another in 85, he began his career in casting. Starting as an assistant on such films as Predator, The Running Man and The Three Amigos, which I feel like almost like, is a perfect encapsulation of my childhood cinema experience, by the way.

00:01:18:02 - 00:01:20:05

Billy DaMota

Should we all do the Three Amigos Salute right now.

00:01:21:18 - 00:01:24:08

Cullen

If I could. Yes, we could remember it.

00:01:24:14 - 00:01:34:02

Clark

Oh, my God. That brings back memories. There you go. In 88, he got a call from Dennis Hopper and they got God, I wish I got a call from Dennis Hopper as.

00:01:34:04 - 00:01:35:02

Billy DaMota

Happens to me all the time.

00:01:35:05 - 00:01:53:21

Clark

It happens to you. It happened to you all the time. Come to come on board. As a casting associate on the gang Epic Colors, which, of course, was directed by Hopper and starred Sean Penn and Robert Duvall. Then Billy went on to become an independent casting director with the film Miracle Mile, which I was just watching. Starring Anthony Edwards and Mare Winningham.

00:01:54:05 - 00:02:11:15

Clark

Then he went on. This is a big shift to work on Steven Seagal's first film, Above the Law, with, of course, the wonderful Sharon Stone. And then he went on to cast the legendary cult classic and maybe one of the best named films of all time chopper chicks in zombie town. And actually, I'd had no idea of this.

00:02:12:05 - 00:02:37:12

Clark

That was one of Billy Bob Thornton. So maybe that was his first starring role, actually. Then you I mean, you've cast Billy's cast hundreds of films, TV shows, commercials, plays, music videos. He's gotten to cast a lot of directors at the start of their careers, like James Franco, Cameron Diaz, Brad Pitt, cast legends such as Faye Dunaway, Mickey Rooney, Glenn Ford, Martin Landau.

00:02:37:13 - 00:02:59:04

Clark

I mean, the list just goes on and on. But in addition to casting, he's always also been a writer, director and producer. He produced the award winning indie crime drama Reflections in the Dark with Billy Zane. And Mimi Rogers won several awards for his short film Poesy in 2012, which he wrote and directed at stars Ray Weiss and Oscar nominee Sally Kirkland.

00:02:59:04 - 00:03:16:05

Clark

And to top it all off, Billy has been nominated for times for an artist for best casting. Billy, thank you so much for being here. It is an honor. It is good to see your face and talk to you. I can't wait to dive into some of the stories you must have in all of that experience.

00:03:17:06 - 00:03:22:06

Billy DaMota

Well, I appreciate the invitation, and I'm always happy to chat about my career.

00:03:23:08 - 00:03:36:03

Clark

I've got to recover from that bio. It was so, you know, I've got to catch my breath. You have? And that's that's just like a tip of the iceberg. I mean, you've been in you. Now you're retired, as I understand it. Right? Although are you.

00:03:36:03 - 00:03:39:05

Billy DaMota

Still. You know, I'm I'm kind of semi-retired.

00:03:39:05 - 00:03:40:14

Clark

My semi-retired, Yeah.

00:03:41:00 - 00:03:43:17

Billy DaMota

When you tell people you're retired, the phone doesn't stop ringing.

00:03:43:17 - 00:03:45:08

Cullen

So now. Well.

00:03:46:18 - 00:04:15:07

Billy DaMota

A little a little history on that. I'm I, you know, I lived in Los Angeles for since I actually moved there in 1975, 74, 75 to play rock and roll and and it was I had moved away from my from my family in San Francisco and in my my friends and my whole sort of support group and started a new life in Los Angeles.

00:04:16:02 - 00:04:36:13

Billy DaMota

And my family had moved back to Oregon, where my mom grew up. So we were now even further apart. So I would, you know, go up to visit in Oregon and and and spend the summers and Christmas and that kind of stuff. But when I decided to retire four years ago or again, semi-retired, I couldn't afford to live in Los Angeles.

00:04:36:13 - 00:04:56:20

Billy DaMota

So I wound up, you know, moving back to where my my mom grew up. And I live literally 5 minutes from her, her the house she grew up in when she was a little girl in the fifties. And and my brothers and sisters all still live here. So it's a great, you know, a great way for me to kind of get away, too.

00:04:56:20 - 00:04:58:09

Billy DaMota

So that's where I'm at right now.

00:04:58:23 - 00:05:10:10

Clark

That I may I had never actually been to Oregon until I married my wife, and her family is actually in sisters. If you're familiar with that. It where that is outside.

00:05:10:11 - 00:05:10:21

Cullen

I'm not.

00:05:11:18 - 00:05:14:18

Clark

Oh, you're with it. Yeah. So not too far away from you.

00:05:15:02 - 00:05:16:04

Cullen

It's just a couple hundred miles.

00:05:16:10 - 00:05:26:11

Billy DaMota

I live in the about as south as you can get. There's Medford and Josephine County and Ashland Shakespeare Festival. All.

00:05:26:15 - 00:05:45:15

Clark

Yep, Yep. I've got family in Ashland, too. It's just a really beautiful, wonderful place. Well, let's. I kind of. You know, if you want to take us back maybe to 75, when you first moved to L.A., you know, I'm always curious about people's stories, about how they get into the business. And it sounds like you had aspirations to be a musician.

00:05:45:22 - 00:05:51:16

Clark

You show up in L.A.. Tell us a little bit about that and how you found yourself in casting.

00:05:52:01 - 00:06:18:20

Billy DaMota

Sure. Well, I I moved here in 1974 with my then fiancee. She was I was playing rock and roll and she was aspiring to be a recording engineer. So she she went to school in San Francisco. Then she worked at a few small studios down here when we moved here and I got a job working with a studio band.

00:06:19:04 - 00:06:49:04

Billy DaMota

I mean, excuse me, I started working in a studio as a studio musician and playing with a local band and it was great for about a year, a year and a half and, you know, kind of the live music career, the live music, you know, scene in Los Angeles kind of dried up for musicians on my level. You know, there's lots of clubs, small clubs that were playing, you know, with the bands could, you know, make a living playing it.

00:06:49:04 - 00:07:15:18

Billy DaMota

And unfortunately, when disco happened, they decided it was she were just a hired DJ. So I wound up selling shoes and, you know, doing all the other things that, you know, people in they that are artists do when they're trying to pay the rent in restaurants. And I wound up actually at Beverly Hills, Porsche, Audi, and in 1984 I was selling cars.

00:07:15:18 - 00:07:17:18

Billy DaMota

I was the sales manager there.

00:07:18:11 - 00:07:19:00

Cullen

Oh, wow.

00:07:19:05 - 00:07:27:18

Billy DaMota

I was, you know, making way too much money. I was I think I was probably making in 1984 probably $100,000 a year.

00:07:28:03 - 00:07:31:14

Clark

Which was. So that's probably like $300,000 today.

00:07:31:22 - 00:07:37:17

Billy DaMota

It was pretty it was pretty big. Wow. You know, that was it was a high traffic star with movie stars and rock stars buying.

00:07:37:21 - 00:07:38:06

Clark

I bet.

00:07:38:14 - 00:07:43:10

Billy DaMota

You know, I used to sell all of Hugh Hefner's girls would come in and they'd say, Hey, can I.

00:07:43:10 - 00:07:44:13

Cullen

Get that one? And can you.

00:07:44:13 - 00:07:45:16

Billy DaMota

Paint it pink for me?

00:07:45:16 - 00:07:48:01

Cullen

And, you know, I ended up selling.

00:07:48:15 - 00:07:55:01

Billy DaMota

Selling, you know, $100,000 cars to Playboy bunnies. Who would, you know, while you drive around Los Angeles and.

00:07:55:08 - 00:07:56:10

Speaker 4

In your life, that career.

00:07:56:21 - 00:08:18:04

Billy DaMota

Yeah, I did leave that career. And then here's the thing. Here's the thing. And you guys know, too, as artists, actors, you know, people involved in the arts, that that's always your heart, that's always your desire, that's always the thing that that drives you is your passion. And for my whole life, music has been my life. My mom, when I was five years old, taught me how to play ukulele.

00:08:18:04 - 00:08:21:02

Billy DaMota

And, you know, it was you know, it was.

00:08:21:20 - 00:08:22:11

Clark

It stuck.

00:08:22:13 - 00:08:40:06

Billy DaMota

At never it never left me, you know. So I so when I so I was working at the dealership and hating my life, I was, you know, hanging out with at the Playboy Mansion and and having movie stars buy cars for me and making a lot of money and driving around in 911 and wearing fancy three piece suits.

00:08:40:06 - 00:08:48:12

Billy DaMota

And and I was miserable because I wasn't playing my music. I wasn't right. I was it was a seven day a week job, you know, and.

00:08:48:17 - 00:08:51:23

Clark

And you weren't on your path. You were you were off the path. Yeah.

00:08:52:06 - 00:09:18:03

Billy DaMota

I had strayed. And so a friend of mine was living with a casting director, and, you know, he was my, my best buddy. We used to hang out and go to clubs and, you know, just hang out together. And I said, What is that? What does she do? What does a casting director do? He said, Well, you know, they find the actors for the movies and, you know, they audition them.

00:09:18:03 - 00:09:27:16

Billy DaMota

And and it was kind of a foreign thing to me. But I was 30 years old and I wanted to change my life. And I said, I, I think I could do that.

00:09:28:05 - 00:09:29:00

Cullen

I want to try that.

00:09:29:03 - 00:09:46:17

Billy DaMota

I like people. I like movies. And he said, Well, let's we'll get together for lunch with her and we'll chat about it. And we did. We all had lunch and at and I said, Can I try it? And she says, Yeah, come work with me for free.

00:09:47:09 - 00:09:50:21

Cullen

And so for free. For free, right?

00:09:51:05 - 00:10:32:03

Billy DaMota

So I did I, I left my big old job. My wife at the time was, was this. I have a different wife at this time and she is studying to be a a deaf teacher. A teacher for deaf children and and she's going to Cal State Northridge and they have the best program there. And instead of going to she went to night school and she worked days to help support our family and my new, you know, I guess diversion from from.

00:10:32:03 - 00:10:38:18

Clark

You know now that was that a challenge you know, to leave the had to have been a bit scary to.

00:10:38:18 - 00:10:49:16

Billy DaMota

Leave it was very well because yeah it was a it was a it was a it that was kind of a it would have been a career path for me had I stayed on. It would have been I would have been very successful.

00:10:50:04 - 00:10:52:22

Cullen

Yeah.

00:10:52:22 - 00:11:12:12

Billy DaMota

I would have been very successful and I'm sure I would have I mean I'm, you know, not to brag, but I always aspire to be the best I can be. Whatever I do. So but but that's the reason I had to leave, because I knew that if I if I was in it any longer, I would I would get immersed in it and not be able to get out.

00:11:12:12 - 00:11:35:08

Billy DaMota

So, yeah. So she supported me. She was, you know, I'm thankful I had and she's still one of my best friends today. She knew what my dreams and passions were, and she knew I wanted to get back in the arts and, and and this was a way for me to sort of get out of the drudgery of of 9 to 5 retail seven days a week.

00:11:35:14 - 00:11:37:08

Clark

Yeah. And now I'm curious.

00:11:37:08 - 00:11:37:19

Billy DaMota

In my dream.

00:11:38:08 - 00:11:55:20

Clark

I'm curious Billie, at this point of the story, you know your your passion was music. Did did you have a passion for film or cinema at this point when you first, like, dipped your toes into casting? Was that a big part of your childhood or not so much or.

00:11:56:04 - 00:12:09:23

Billy DaMota

You know, I mean, I, I grew up just like I think everybody you know, I'm not a youngster and I when I grew up, it was cost $0.50 to go to the movies. And when we would go every weekend.

00:12:10:09 - 00:12:11:01

Cullen

Yeah, my.

00:12:11:03 - 00:12:28:17

Billy DaMota

My brother and I would go to the to the in in San Francisco. We were at the Castro Theater when the Castro Theater had you know, I mean, my first my first movie, the very first movie that I ever saw in a movie theater when I was nine years old was the pit in the pendulum.

00:12:28:17 - 00:12:29:03

Cullen

Uh.

00:12:30:06 - 00:12:31:09

Billy DaMota

You know Roger Corman?

00:12:31:19 - 00:12:33:03

Cullen

Mm hmm.

00:12:33:11 - 00:12:55:21

Billy DaMota

Directing Vincent Price and, you know, Edgar Allan Poe and one of my favorite, you know, scary movies of all time. And it freaked me out. I mean, it literally freaked me out. There was a I have to tell you, just a quick aside, there was a huge chandelier in the Castro Theater, like an old you know, the movie theater probably built in the early twenties.

00:12:56:01 - 00:13:26:23

Billy DaMota

Yeah. Or early part of the 19th, 1900s. And the and and when the when the the if you're familiar with the movie, when the pendulum actually starts to swing across and is going to you know, and the and the victim is strapped down and is getting closer and closer to where they're dissecting. Yeah human there is I'm looking up and I and I'm absolutely positive that the chandelier is going to fall on me.

00:13:27:13 - 00:13:29:01

Cullen

And I mean I was nine.

00:13:29:05 - 00:13:29:10

Billy DaMota

Years.

00:13:29:10 - 00:13:31:04

Cullen

Old I think. Yeah, yeah. I love it.

00:13:31:04 - 00:13:33:10

Billy DaMota

I think actually walked out of the theater crying.

00:13:33:23 - 00:13:35:03

Cullen

Oh, I.

00:13:35:03 - 00:13:50:10

Billy DaMota

Think our babysitter took us my, my, me and my little brother Oscar. So anyway, my, my, my movie, you know, sort of. I love to go see the movies every week, you know? And my dad used to take us to see all the Three Stooges movies and.

00:13:50:19 - 00:13:51:14

Clark

Oh, yeah.

00:13:52:09 - 00:13:55:13

Billy DaMota

But I was a huge, you know, I mean, those were the days when you went to the movies every week.

00:13:55:13 - 00:13:55:22

Clark

Yeah.

00:13:56:07 - 00:14:17:13

Billy DaMota

You bought a ticket. You sat in front of a big screen, so and when I got into the business, the, the, the, the, the movie industry was huge, you know. Yeah. And, you know, I started when the the woman that I was working for, I'm not going to mention her name because we, we don't get along anymore and I hate her guts.

00:14:17:21 - 00:14:21:19

Clark

Oh no we don't have to mention her name. That's okay.

00:14:22:07 - 00:14:23:10

Billy DaMota

She actually hates my guts.

00:14:23:22 - 00:14:24:11

Cullen

Oh.

00:14:25:01 - 00:14:58:20

Billy DaMota

She, she was working on she worked for John Hughes, and so. Oh, wow. She had just finished doing 16 Candles in the Breakfast Club and Weird Science when I started, I started with her. When I started with I she was working on and basically I started as an intern and I was shuffling paper. Yeah. And being, you know, being basically a gofer.

00:15:00:04 - 00:15:08:17

Billy DaMota

And I'm sure that for all your, your, your audience, you understand what a gofer is. The guy who was the guy you send to go for coffee?

00:15:09:02 - 00:15:12:09

Clark

Most of us have been there ourselves at one point or another.

00:15:12:22 - 00:15:28:05

Billy DaMota

And this is before Starbucks and and so basically I was you know, I was the office slave, which I didn't mind. I was I couldn't have been more excited to be making no money and doing lots of work. Yeah, it was. It was.

00:15:28:07 - 00:15:29:14

Clark

But for real though, right? I mean.

00:15:29:14 - 00:15:31:19

Billy DaMota

Because I mean sure. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean.

00:15:32:03 - 00:15:32:13

Clark

Because it.

00:15:32:13 - 00:15:33:23

Billy DaMota

Was a brand new adventure for.

00:15:33:23 - 00:15:50:07

Clark

Me and exciting. I would have met. I mean, even if you're pushing paper, you know, I've been there, you know, and a slight parallel to your story, not to make this about me, but I left a successful career in marketing, advertising. I wasn't on my path and I was kind of I felt like it was sucking the soul from my body.

00:15:50:07 - 00:15:59:03

Clark

And and then I left that to go be the lowest man on the totem pole, so to speak. And I know what that's like. But you're just happy as can be, though.

00:15:59:12 - 00:16:00:07

Billy DaMota

Yeah, absolutely.

00:16:00:07 - 00:16:05:20

Clark

At least for a while. And so you're pushing paper. Yeah.

00:16:06:04 - 00:16:28:06

Billy DaMota

And but. But I'm loving every single minute of it. And yeah, she was working with, you know, I mean, at the time she was, you know, there, you know, Judd Nelson and Virginia madsen and, and Craig Sheffer and Ally Sheedy and all these people were walking through the office and, you know, they at the time they were nobody.

00:16:28:06 - 00:16:49:11

Billy DaMota

They were just kids, you know, who wanted to be in movies and, and so I was sort of at the very the very beginning. And, and, and I think what really inspired me, too, was that she worked with a lot of, you know, working with John Hughes. You worked with a lot of young talent. Yeah. There is an energy that's palpable when you're in the middle of that.

00:16:50:04 - 00:17:02:18

Billy DaMota

And, you know, I don't I don't know if you're into astrology, and I'm not really that much. I don't know that much about it, but my excuse me, I'm I hope you can edit this stuff.

00:17:03:02 - 00:17:03:15

Cullen

Yeah, it's.

00:17:05:13 - 00:17:06:07

Clark

It's okay. Yeah.

00:17:06:12 - 00:17:06:16

Billy DaMota

Yeah.

00:17:07:11 - 00:17:08:01

Clark

It's okay.

00:17:08:01 - 00:17:10:10

Billy DaMota

I have. I'm allergic to cats and I.

00:17:10:10 - 00:17:17:00

Clark

Don't know, and I just saw one walk across the screen. So did I not That's not. That seems like a good fit.

00:17:17:10 - 00:17:18:05

Cullen

The the.

00:17:18:05 - 00:17:20:18

Billy DaMota

The the fountain is on my table here, so.

00:17:21:10 - 00:17:22:06

Clark

I gotcha.

00:17:22:06 - 00:17:23:06

Billy DaMota

The kitty drinks to hang on.

00:17:23:08 - 00:17:30:08

Clark

I'm surprised. I'm surprised my cats haven't, you know, made an appearance yet. Eventually, they probably will knock something off my desk.

00:17:30:09 - 00:17:32:12

Billy DaMota

This is Leroy. Leroy makes a lot of appearances.

00:17:32:18 - 00:17:34:01

Clark

So. Hey, Leroy.

00:17:35:00 - 00:18:02:03

Billy DaMota

So I had had an astrologer friend of mine. Yeah, We said, Billy, you're 30 years old. Your Saturn is returning and. And in astrology, that means that your you're due for a shift in your life and a seismic shift as one that that is like, you know, you work for 30 years. That's the first phase of your or you live for 30 years.

00:18:02:03 - 00:18:25:19

Billy DaMota

That's the first phase and then it's time to make a sharp left turn, to go to do something else and to follow your dreams. And so that's what I accidentally kind of accidentally on purpose fell into. And so I work I work with excuse me, I work with Jackie on, oh, I just said her name.

00:18:25:19 - 00:18:26:22

Clark

So you just said her name.

00:18:27:01 - 00:18:30:08

Cullen

We're going to we're going to cut that out.

00:18:30:08 - 00:18:40:16

Billy DaMota

So I work with this, though. I'll tell you, it's it's Jackie Birch. Jackie Birch cast huge, you know, huge movies. And yeah, and I worked for when we had a dispute when I left.

00:18:40:16 - 00:19:06:01

Clark

So and it's and this is so you're talking just to kind of let people know because I'm you know I'm here of course I've got your IMDB up like a good podcast host would and you know it. I'm looking at these early films that you've got credited here. It's, you know, Commando, Three Amigos, Project X, which of course at the time I thought Matthew Broderick was, you know, just like I idolized that kid.

00:19:06:01 - 00:19:33:22

Clark

So, oh yeah, X was a film. I loved Predator. I mean, how could you not running, man? You know, these are like the pillar of my childhood cinema experience and and, and I was actually reading Quentin Tarantino's new book, Cinema Speculation, and I'm a fan of his, but he goes out of his way to say that he thinks the eighties is maybe the worst decade of cinema ever.

00:19:33:22 - 00:19:58:01

Clark

And I have to just completely disagree that there are so many wonderful movies from the eighties. And, you know, I just couldn't disagree more. But so this is so just to give people a little background. So this is what you're talking about, right? These early experiences, you're interning, right, commando in these films. I mean, they had to have been extraordinary because these are these are major studio feature films.

00:19:58:01 - 00:20:00:23

Clark

You've got Arnold Schwarzenegger in the lead here.

00:20:02:00 - 00:20:05:06

Billy DaMota

Did you see my, my, my, my Polaroid with Arnold?

00:20:05:16 - 00:20:29:07

Clark

I did. Well, that was you know, I was looking at it. So if on Facebook, you have been posting like a Polaroid a day basically for a while now. And yeah, that I saw some of those Polaroids and I just thought that's actually what sparked this. I was like, I got to get a hold of Billie. I'm looking at these Polaroids and I've seen all these young faces, all these people who've gone on to have, you know, extraordinary careers.

00:20:29:07 - 00:20:33:05

Clark

And I just thought, you've got to have some amazing stories.

00:20:33:05 - 00:20:33:10

Cullen

Yeah.

00:20:33:10 - 00:20:51:05

Billy DaMota

And it's been so it's just been amazing being there. Yeah. Beginning of their careers to watch people like, you know, like Arnold's Commando was really his first, you know? I mean, he did he did. The Red Sonja would not race or any of that, but he did.

00:20:51:10 - 00:20:54:12

Clark

CONAN was known for that. Yeah. Going on in.

00:20:54:20 - 00:20:56:22

Billy DaMota

And then the documentaries before that. But yeah.

00:20:57:00 - 00:20:57:18

Clark

The Pumping Iron.

00:20:58:11 - 00:21:19:21

Billy DaMota

Yeah, but this was his first kind of like acting real acting movie. I mean, that's what he called it, you know, And he wanted it to be perfect and Arnold, you know, was and still is a perfectionist. And yeah, he would come in and re loop every single line that he did to make sure that it was that it was, you know, on the on the money and that everything was, you know, locked in it.

00:21:20:14 - 00:21:38:08

Billy DaMota

And, you know, he went to acting class and he did everything, you know, he the way he worked in bodybuilding, he put the same sort of passion and effort into into his acting career. And, you know, like him or not, he is you know, he he set an example for a lot of people at BET. And it was great being there at the beginning.

00:21:38:11 - 00:21:47:12

Billy DaMota

I mean, you know, I, I was young. I was in my thirties, and he would invite me to to hang out with him at Patrick's Roadhouse.

00:21:48:00 - 00:21:48:06

Cullen

In.

00:21:48:06 - 00:22:20:04

Billy DaMota

Santa monica. Patrick's Roadhouse, which is a for for those who don't know, is there is a little restaurant on the Pacific Coast Highway and in, you know, in Santa monica. And and every Saturday it was Saturday morning. I think Arnold and his friends would all get together, all his bodybuilding friends. Sven, if you haven't you guys, if you're familiar with Arnold, you know Sven, who is his right hand man and the guy who was his, I think he called him his bodyguard, but it was just his friend who he worked out with in Franco Colombo.

00:22:20:12 - 00:22:20:14

Cullen

Who?

00:22:20:16 - 00:22:21:12

Clark

Absolutely, Yeah.

00:22:21:12 - 00:22:32:05

Billy DaMota

Who went on to work with in a couple of movies that he produced in Italy. But we would go to Patrick's Roadhouse and everybody would smoke these these big cigars.

00:22:32:18 - 00:22:34:12

Clark

Right. Which he's famous for.

00:22:34:12 - 00:23:00:20

Billy DaMota

Yeah, right. And, and so I, I wound up going for the, you know, the first couple of weeks and I, I smoke cigarets. But at the time, but being in a room, you know, where and the thing is, is nobody else would come into the restaurant because they knew it was Saturday. Arnold Cigars and you know and they'd all sit around and shoot the breeze and smoke cigars.

00:23:00:20 - 00:23:11:03

Billy DaMota

And so I had to tell Arnold, I'm not going to be able to hang out with you very much. But the point I'm making, it was it was it was when you could hang out with Arnold Schwarzenegger on the beach house.

00:23:11:03 - 00:23:12:11

Cullen

And it's.

00:23:12:11 - 00:23:13:01

Clark

Amazing.

00:23:13:02 - 00:23:18:05

Billy DaMota

I think you still can almost you know, because Arnold is is really that accessible. He's so cool.

00:23:18:18 - 00:23:47:01

Clark

I mean, that's so so your so let's so go back to this So you're you're you're interning you're learning the ropes. Tell me kind of what that experience was like and maybe to even kind of step back, you know, because a lot of the people that are listening there, their film, their film fans, they're cinephiles, but they don't necessarily know kind of how the sausage is made and or maybe even really understand exactly what casting directors do.

00:23:47:11 - 00:24:06:08

Clark

But maybe you could kind of go in a little bit on. And obviously it can be different from film to film, but for the most part, kind of, if you wouldn't mind describing what a casting directors job is, how do they contribute to a film? How do they work with producers? Director, etc., just to give people maybe a little background?

00:24:06:23 - 00:24:20:07

Billy DaMota

Sure. Well, yeah, it's it's it's funny because we kind of do everything, but I'll give you the general overview of what we're supposed to do.

00:24:20:21 - 00:24:21:06

Clark

Right.

00:24:21:06 - 00:25:00:12

Billy DaMota

And, and, and but you know, essentially in casting as an assistant and an intern, in the beginning, I was pretty much relegated to doing all the sort of office work filing stuff. And making phone calls and setting up an appointment, setting up appointments, you know, making sure I travel arrangements for actors. You know, when I first started, I was we were she was just finishing up a movie called What's was it called?

00:25:00:12 - 00:25:33:20

Billy DaMota

I think it was called Fire With Fire with Virginia madsen and Craig Sheffer. And it was a it was a movie about two a boy and a girl who were teens that were both delinquents. And they got together and fell in love and it was a fiery, terrible romantic relationship. And so I was doing all the paperwork after the movie had wrapped and I was doing like, you know, setting up people for looping and for for, you know, coming in and doing reshoots and stuff.

00:25:34:13 - 00:25:56:21

Billy DaMota

Because the movie was done. People don't know what looping is, is when you actually come back and you rerecord your voice because it wasn't perfect when you write it the first time. And I would be setting up travel for them to come into town or out of town or whatever, you know, it was basically just, you know, office work, you know, almost like the house of the DMV.

00:25:56:21 - 00:26:15:11

Billy DaMota

But I was working with movies, but and then and then I got a little bit more responsibility and I was able to actually hang out and sit in the sessions and and help with putting ideas and putting list together and I became an assistant. And then I moved on to be an associate when I started working on bigger movies.

00:26:16:02 - 00:26:43:08

Billy DaMota

And. And your responsibilities changed But, but essentially what casting directors do and what they are the job developers for the movie that you're working on, the project, your work. So you'll meet with the producer and director and whoever in the creative team is, you know, sort of in charge of of making the movie. Sometimes the writers involved, sometimes the like.

00:26:43:08 - 00:27:03:15

Billy DaMota

For instance, we were talking about colors. Sean Penn would be in all the meetings because he was like the executive producer and the star, right? He was the one who hired Dennis Hopper. He was the one who came up with the idea for Robert Duvall to be his partner in the movie. So you, you, you you basically sit with producer and director.

00:27:03:15 - 00:27:20:00

Billy DaMota

You figure out what you what your your your goals are as far as finding talent goes. And then you put out a breakdown. You release a breakdown is basically a job listing for the actors. You want to make a short.

00:27:20:00 - 00:27:22:14

Clark

Description of the character, right? Their requirements. Yeah.

00:27:22:15 - 00:27:47:04

Billy DaMota

And the roles you want for the roles you want to cast. Yeah. And. And then the agents and managers who are out there, those are the people that represent the talent. They submit their best ideas for each of the roles that you're looking for. And and then in the you know, it's changed now because now because of the pandemic, there was the process has changed where it's become a lot less in person.

00:27:47:17 - 00:27:52:14

Billy DaMota

And you can do more virtual casting self tapes, online casting.

00:27:53:11 - 00:28:08:13

Clark

Which has been the the trend I feel like for quite a while. I mean, even when, you know, when I was in the game and really actively pursuing acting about, you know, 15 to 10 years ago, we already started to see some of that.

00:28:08:13 - 00:28:16:22

Speaker 4

And I imagine when I was a kid too, it was self tapes were primarily my limited experience in any professional capacity was also tapes.

00:28:17:10 - 00:28:23:01

Billy DaMota

So but it wasn't always like that. I mean, yeah. And in the casting you miss that. Oh yeah.

00:28:23:01 - 00:28:25:02

Clark

I feel like that's a good or. Yeah, no.

00:28:25:03 - 00:28:42:21

Billy DaMota

Yeah it's, it's a bad thing. And so yeah, well the whole I mean it's, it's good in it in the fact that it's convenient and it's efficient but sometimes in that convenience in that efficiency you lose the art and you lose the human connection and absolute.

00:28:42:21 - 00:28:52:22

Clark

And that's what, you know, the art is. Let's, let's talk about that for a little bit. As I you know, I didn't know this about you, but I think I read you have actually studied acting, correct?

00:28:53:13 - 00:28:54:12

Billy DaMota

You have studied acting.

00:28:54:15 - 00:29:07:17

Clark

You studied acting. Yeah. When did you decide to do that in your career in this timeline? So kind of curious about how that affected the art of your process.

00:29:07:17 - 00:29:38:23

Billy DaMota

Okay, good. It's a great question. Well, you know, in the in the late eighties, I'd been casting for a few years. I had finished above the law and finished colors on my own. I did a movie called Miracle Mile and and I was still trying to understand how actors think and how they process. And so I could be a better casting director.

00:29:38:23 - 00:30:11:21

Billy DaMota

So there was I mean, I got to figure out exactly the timeline, but I guess it was around 88 or 89. I kept seeing actors who I really thought were amazing, and every time I would turn over their resume, there was a teacher named Howard Fine who was on their resumé. Now, I'd met Howard a few years before he was working as a partner with another acting teacher or sort of he was a sort of an associate teacher there, and he had just started his own studio in the late eighties.

00:30:12:10 - 00:30:31:11

Billy DaMota

And so I called Howard and I said, you know, I'd love to be able to come by and audit your class and just look at it, look at the way you work, if I can, because every single resume that I turn over of an actor I'm in love with has your name on it is Come on down. You can, you know, Monday nights we have auditing You sit in the back your fly on the wall.

00:30:32:00 - 00:30:59:17

Billy DaMota

So I went down there and I went down to the actor. Howard Fine acting studio was on Robertson at the time, and I sat in the back watching the talent and there were movie stars in the class and there were novices in the class. There were people that had just started in there, people that were had been working for years and and every single one of them was doing amazing work at the top of their game.

00:30:59:17 - 00:31:19:04

Billy DaMota

It was it was mind blowing, almost. And so after the class, I said, Howard, how do you what do you do? I mean, what is your formula? How do you get how do you get such great performances out of these guys and how do you how do you instill them with such brilliant, you know, insight and into acting?

00:31:19:04 - 00:31:22:22

Billy DaMota

He said, Take my class.

00:31:22:22 - 00:31:25:05

Cullen

Yeah, yeah. And I and.

00:31:25:05 - 00:31:28:17

Billy DaMota

I said, No, no, no, you don't understand. I'm a casting director. I just want.

00:31:28:18 - 00:31:29:17

Cullen

I'm not an actor.

00:31:29:17 - 00:32:07:01

Billy DaMota

I'm not an actor. I just want to he's just take my class, take my basic technique. Class is now called the foundation class, but in the eighties it was called the basic technique, and it was a 12 week class. He says, Come in, take the class. He says, I'll I'll I'll I'll give you a scholarship. Take 12 weeks and you'll And by the time you get out of that class, you'll understand what goes on in an actor's head and you understand how they think and you understand how they process and you'll understand how they do the work and how they put together a character and how they, you know, immerse themselves in roles.

00:32:07:01 - 00:32:32:23

Billy DaMota

You'll understand all of that because that's what basic technique is about. So I took the class and I was in the class and it was revelatory. It was it was something that I never expected. It was it was an insight into a profession that I didn't want to pursue, but that I wanted to understand the. And so I was I have another cat that's up here playing with the microphone she's trying to get.

00:32:32:23 - 00:32:33:04

Billy DaMota

Yeah.

00:32:33:04 - 00:32:46:07

Clark

Like I said, I'm surprised that mine mine have it Usually when I when they anytime my cats I don't know if this is the same for you Billy when they hear my voice, they just assume I'm talking to them. And so they just come to me, like, no matter what I'm doing, you know, that same thing I.

00:32:46:07 - 00:32:51:12

Billy DaMota

Talked to Siri. And so she and whenever I talk to Siri, the casting, I'm talking to her.

00:32:51:20 - 00:32:53:19

Cullen

Yeah, I know it.

00:32:53:20 - 00:33:09:12

Clark

So I just watched it. But how was your experience, like on a personal level? So it was like, you know, it's you're learning about what it's like in the mind of an actor and what the process may be like, but how it like was it was it intimidating? Was it scary? Did you enjoy it just kind of on that level?

00:33:09:12 - 00:33:10:10

Clark

I'm kind of curious.

00:33:10:10 - 00:33:11:18

Cullen

Yeah. You know, it's.

00:33:11:18 - 00:33:27:15

Billy DaMota

Like it's like anything else. You do it first, you know, you're on a tightrope. You're it's like I this is not my area of expertise. I don't know what I'm doing. I, I have no. And then once you start to get the tools, once you start to understand the process and the technique, it becomes so much more comfortable.

00:33:27:15 - 00:33:54:00

Billy DaMota

It almost. And if you're if you are artistically inclined, you tend to lean into it and you tend to you tend to, to absorb it. And that's what I did. And, you know, after I did the 12 week Foundation class, I said to Howard, I said, you know, you changed my life. You made my you've opened up my eyes and I see acting and actors and the profession and the process in a whole different way.

00:33:54:00 - 00:33:59:14

Billy DaMota

And he says he says, Wait, you're not done.

00:33:59:14 - 00:34:00:00

Clark

I'm not.

00:34:01:02 - 00:34:20:16

Billy DaMota

I beg your pardon? He says, No, he's I'm giving you a scholarship for my masterclass. And so he enrolled me in his masterclass is I think it was on Monday nights, you know, where I would study with, you know, people like John Corbett and Heather Locklear and Lou Ferrigno.

00:34:20:16 - 00:34:21:07

Clark

Amazing.

00:34:21:17 - 00:34:30:10

Billy DaMota

You know, And these are all actors that, you know, that John Corbett was at the beginning of his career. But, you know, Heather Locklear and Lily would, you know.

00:34:30:13 - 00:34:31:12

Clark

Are established and.

00:34:31:12 - 00:34:50:12

Billy DaMota

Other people, they were already established, but they were in class so they could improve their craft. And so I basically so I was in his master class for about three years, probably until the early nineties. And then I got you know, I started working in Europe. I started working with we're talking about Franco Colombo. He was producing movies now.

00:34:51:02 - 00:34:51:12

Clark

Yeah.

00:34:51:21 - 00:35:00:15

Billy DaMota

And he asked me if I wanted to come to Italy and work on some movies and I said, Yeah. And so I wasn't able to, to commit to that.

00:35:00:15 - 00:35:14:16

Clark

But so you really went for it. I mean, because I was going to think, well, you, you know, I thought you were going to kind of say, well, I was there for three months and I got a little taste and, you know, then I went back to casting. I mean, but to be in that class for three plus years, that's Yeah.

00:35:14:16 - 00:35:17:21

Billy DaMota

And it but, but I never got out of casting. I mean I.

00:35:18:07 - 00:35:35:10

Clark

Yeah. You were casting the entire time. Absolutely. You know and, and you know I've, I have either, you know, either talked to or been in Q and A is or whatever it might be. I've lost track of how many casting directors I've kind of spoken to and got at least a little bit of a taste of, of their background.

00:35:35:10 - 00:35:56:18

Clark

And it's interesting that yours is is kind of almost the opposite of what I hear so much in casting directors in that so many casting directors. In my experience when I talked to them, started out actually pursuing acting. They, they, they were looking for a career as an actor. And then through that process, they, they shifted into casting.

00:35:57:01 - 00:36:08:11

Clark

And you're one of the few stories where you were already in casting and you actually went out, not that you were trying to find a career in acting, but that you studied. Acting is almost kind of the reverse of what I hear.

00:36:08:11 - 00:36:08:21

Cullen

A lot of.

00:36:09:18 - 00:36:25:20

Billy DaMota

Yeah. And ironically, Howard said to me when I finished the 12 week class, he says, You need to stop casting and start acting. He says, You could be. He told me he was basically predicting that I, I would be a very successful actor if I.

00:36:26:00 - 00:36:28:05

Clark

And it just and you just said I approached it.

00:36:28:11 - 00:36:54:05

Billy DaMota

When I probably could have and if I pursued it, but I wasn't interested. That wasn't that wasn't the reason I was in class. That wasn't a reason I was studying acting. So but you're right, there are a lot of actors. There are a lot of casting directors in this business that and I think and I think, you know, my history on, on, on the whole, the whole workshops and the sort of arrogance of the casting industry over the years.

00:36:54:15 - 00:36:54:22

Cullen

Yeah.

00:36:55:23 - 00:37:23:13

Billy DaMota

And the sort of the criminal behavior of of a lot of my profession. But, but I think that what what there's a lot of casting directors who because they were actors in the past and because they kind of got shit on or stepped on or or on you know were unappreciated by the industry because actors generally are, you know, sit at the bottom of the totem pole and often get the worst.

00:37:23:13 - 00:37:39:14

Billy DaMota

You know, they get the short shrift all the time. Yeah. That when they got a little bit of taste of casting, when they got to be a casting assistant, they got a little taste of power in a lot. And there was a thing that happened with a lot of casting, a lot of actors. When they got into casting, just they weren't.

00:37:39:21 - 00:37:51:19

Billy DaMota

They said they wanted to try it just so they could understand the process a little bit more. But then they they started to enjoy and appreciate the the attention they got from other actors. Yeah. And the power they got from it.

00:37:51:19 - 00:38:15:07

Clark

So it took and even, you know, I think sometimes just subconsciously, it doesn't even have to be a malicious thing not to go too far down this rabbit hole. But no, you're right. Sometimes it's just that, you know, if if you desired a career and a certain path and you're sitting in the room in the end, for whatever reason, because it look, it's a tremendously difficult industry and you can be exceptionally talented and not find yourself with a career that's paying the bills.

00:38:15:18 - 00:38:31:04

Clark

And you could be sitting in that room and just see somebody who is just, just absolute dynamite and there's might just be that we're all human, that little bitty part of you that's like, Gosh darn it, that should be me, you know? Yeah. And so sometimes that even can exist. Yeah.

00:38:31:07 - 00:38:45:10

Billy DaMota

But also I that's a little weasely. No, no. And in the sense that if you're if you, if you have a passion for a career, you don't just shift because it's easier to do. You know what I mean?

00:38:45:10 - 00:38:46:03

Clark

It's like I do.

00:38:46:09 - 00:39:03:08

Billy DaMota

I'm going to be an actor and I'm going to struggle and I'm going to try to make it up. But I, you know, I feel I get a little bit more power and money and whatever out of casting. So even though it's not maybe their preferred first choice, yeah, I think they take it's, I think it's yeah.

00:39:03:17 - 00:39:05:01

Clark

It's a little bit of a sell out there.

00:39:05:05 - 00:39:06:00

Cullen

A little bit of history.

00:39:06:10 - 00:39:08:20

Clark

And a little bit of a subjugation of your soul.

00:39:08:20 - 00:39:15:09

Billy DaMota

So maybe it's because I'm closer to it and I see more of it than that. I've seen more of it over the years, you know, close up.

00:39:15:18 - 00:39:16:19

Clark

That could be.

00:39:17:04 - 00:39:19:04

Cullen

So when you.

00:39:19:12 - 00:39:51:14

Clark

When you come back or like as you're taking the class, because I want to talk about, too, you know, as you're progressing in your ability when you're now you're in the room and you're in these sessions and you're seeing actors come in and I'm sure seen, you know, the whole range of of auditions, I kind of just curious more to like how do casting directors, how do you specifically start to hone in on your like, hone your intuition where you because it's such a art.

00:39:51:14 - 00:40:12:18

Clark

And I think a lot of people don't realize if you're outside, if you've not ever worked on a film or been a part of the process, what an art it is to cast a film and how much that influences the quality of the film. And it's not just, you know, the top one or two people. I mean, it's it's every single person who's in frame during that entire well, it's.

00:40:13:06 - 00:40:20:17

Billy DaMota

Because they're all an intrinsic part of the final product. So, you know, yeah, just finding one good actor, but it's finding an ensemble.

00:40:20:17 - 00:40:22:06

Clark

It's finding cousins or a mother.

00:40:22:06 - 00:40:22:15

Billy DaMota

Right?

00:40:23:03 - 00:40:33:00

Clark

And so it just, you know, like just so curious about how you that developed for you, like what your perception of developing that intuition was or whatever you want to call it. I don't want to know.

00:40:33:03 - 00:41:01:04

Billy DaMota

No, no, it is intuition. But yeah, here's the thing. I think you have to have it in the beginning. I just sort of like they say, you can, you can't make a bad actor, a good actor. You just like you can't make a you can't make a bad casting director. A good casting director. I think you have to have a certain level of talent and intuition going in and and this and hone it and develop it as a skill the more you do it.

00:41:01:12 - 00:41:22:12

Billy DaMota

You know, when I first started casting, I used to, you know, a second guess myself all the time. And I used to, you know, when I, I would bring actors in, I'd say he was good, wasn't he. Let me bring him back and, and, and I, and I would see him a second time and, and and then after a while, I would just you start to get this sort of sixth sense.

00:41:22:12 - 00:41:49:20

Billy DaMota

I mean, from seeing so many actors and watching sort of the, you know, the gamut of, you know, terrible actors to actors who blow you away, then you don't really understand why they do. But after you start seeing that on a regular basis, you start to understand what makes somebody bad and what makes somebody good. For instance, you can see that somebody who is not who is not nailing it when they come to an audition.

00:41:50:16 - 00:41:54:20

Billy DaMota

There are a few different reasons. Sometimes they're just bad that.

00:41:55:02 - 00:41:55:08

Cullen

Yeah.

00:41:55:12 - 00:41:57:07

Billy DaMota

And some and they're and.

00:41:57:07 - 00:41:58:03

Clark

They will get in there.

00:41:58:12 - 00:42:15:05

Billy DaMota

And they'll never be good. And sometimes they're just nervous or sometimes they're just unprepared. And it's you have to understand all the nuances and that develops after seeing lots of actors. I mean, I made a lot of mistakes in the beginning. I think everybody does when they when they start out now.

00:42:15:15 - 00:42:30:17

Speaker 4

Do you find that, um, or did you find that after doing those those acting classes and studying acting that you sort of like that really helped you hone in on the choices that these actors were making in the auditions? Absolutely. That you were you better understood this nervousness or this.

00:42:30:17 - 00:42:46:14

Billy DaMota

Absolutely. Well, I mean, there are times when actors come in and I mean and I've seen it because I've been in other casting sessions with other casting directors will say they'll see an actor and they'll say, thank you very much and the actor will leave and and I'll be thinking in my head or wait, that actor just was, you know, a little nervous.

00:42:46:14 - 00:42:52:01

Billy DaMota

Or he'd just gotten out of the out of you know, he'd just got to have traffic, two.

00:42:52:01 - 00:42:53:02

Clark

Hours of traffic at.

00:42:53:12 - 00:43:17:14

Billy DaMota

110 degrees outside. And he had to pee. And he didn't get he didn't get any water before he came to the audition and he was nervous. So is it bad or do you give him another chance? You you know, when actors would come in to my office, even to this day, I can recognize when they're not in their body and they're when they're when they're not when they're not present, whether or not you know.

00:43:18:01 - 00:43:44:15

Billy DaMota

And sometimes I'll just say to them, Hey, listen, go outside, have a drink of water, take 10 minutes, chill, meditate, get in the character and come back in. Because sometimes they'll that's all they need and they come back in and they blow me away. But I think what's happened is because of the abbreviation of the process so much because of the the and has I do a self tapes because you can't connect with an actor personally.

00:43:45:15 - 00:44:06:01

Billy DaMota

For instance, if I'm doing a self tape, I can't readjust that actor. If I see something that I think is there to find out whether or not that actor has the the wherewithal to actually, you know, accept a redirect or understand how to change a character a little bit to make it more what the director's looking for. I can't do that if the actor's not in the room.

00:44:06:01 - 00:44:20:07

Billy DaMota

So but I would do that when the actors are doing, for instance, an actor would come in and would be nervous or would be, you know, tired or would be, you know, just a little unprepared. And I would send them out to kind of regroup.

00:44:20:20 - 00:44:21:05

Cullen

Yeah.

00:44:22:00 - 00:44:23:02

Billy DaMota

Or which is rare.

00:44:23:02 - 00:44:39:07

Clark

That's that's rare, especially for some smaller roles. And it's grateful for casting directors like you that are willing to do that, because the reality is it's just not not that many, in my experience, are willing to kind of give a little bit of extra leeway, you know, empathize a little.

00:44:39:07 - 00:45:02:11

Billy DaMota

I think that the process has suffered, though, because of the because of self tapes and because of of of the inability for a casting director to see actors in the room. You know, what's happened is that producers, you know, especially on low budget stuff, have said hey, well you can do that self tape thing can't you. You know, where you can just see actors on tape and then I can just look at all the tapes.

00:45:02:19 - 00:45:05:23

Billy DaMota

Well, I don't need to spend the money to rent the studio for you, do I?

00:45:06:09 - 00:45:10:12

Clark

And it let's see how many followers they have on Instagram. Yeah.

00:45:10:14 - 00:45:11:13

Billy DaMota

Yeah. I don't anything.

00:45:11:15 - 00:45:12:01

Clark

That comes.

00:45:12:01 - 00:45:14:11

Cullen

Out of that. Yeah. I'm a bit of a.

00:45:14:11 - 00:45:36:20

Speaker 4

Related question to that because of course, you know, since the inception of of budget filmmaking, it's been, you know, for better or for worse and to the perhaps the dismay of a lot of the artists that work in the industry, it's always been, you know, a business. It's been something that that is is designed at the end of the day to to make a return on investment.

00:45:37:18 - 00:46:07:04

Speaker 4

And You know, a lot of people say that there's a lot of corporatization today that exists, which I don't disagree with, but there's always been that level to it. And so I guess I'm curious to know, how did you find and how do you still find that balance between like maybe a studio saying, hey, we really want, you know, this actor in this role and maybe you disagree, Maybe it's maybe it's like a financial decision that they're sort of pushing on the film versus something that you say, you know, you have a different idea.

00:46:07:06 - 00:46:10:17

Speaker 4

It was that it challenged a balance. Was there ever any moment where you sort of Well.

00:46:11:13 - 00:46:39:22

Billy DaMota

I mean, it's a challenge to balance that. If I allow myself to be involved in that situation. What I do, though, in the beginning, as I, you know, of every project, is I meet with the producer and director and and make sure that we're all on the same page about what we're looking at creatively. If they want somebody who is if they want an actor with with, you know, who's the biggest actor on Tik-Tok, whether or not they can act or not, I'm not going to cast the movie so in.

00:46:40:01 - 00:47:16:20

Billy DaMota

So we'll let somebody else figure that out. If we get into a situation where they say to me, like, for instance, I worked for Pure Flix, I don't know if you guys are familiar with that, but it's the biggest Christian production company on the planet, right? And it used to be it's it's kind of a fallen from grace, but in the beginning they would they would say, you need to we need to find people with with, you know, as many Facebook followers as we or as many, you know, Twitter followers or as I'd say, no, you need to find the best actor for the role if they happen to have, you know, a big social

00:47:16:20 - 00:47:39:11

Billy DaMota

media, you know, profile, that's a bonus. But if you start hiring people that are only, you know, in your movie because they have big numbers on social media, you're going to have bad movies and people don't like to watch bad movies. So you can't have an influencer as the star of your movie just because he has, you know, a million TikTok followers now.

00:47:39:11 - 00:47:44:07

Billy DaMota

And, you know, thankfully, they would listen to me. And if they didn't listen to me, then I would not work on their movie.

00:47:44:07 - 00:47:45:17

Clark

So you're out of there? Yeah.

00:47:45:17 - 00:48:18:05

Billy DaMota

All right. But the great thing about about working with new filmmakers is they want talent. And, I mean, sometimes it's changing now. Sometimes they'll be sort of there. They'll go on that. And don't get me wrong, every movie is made to make money, you know, from the beginning of time. I mean, we all make them for art because we want to make the best, you know, you we want to make the best thing that we can, and we want it to reflect good on our on our on our sort of career.

00:48:18:05 - 00:48:39:02

Billy DaMota

And in the long run, we want to make sure that we make good art. But, you know, we all know that the movies have to make money, but the bottom line is that if, if, if the difference between an actor who's got a lot of numbers and an actor who's got a lot of talent, I always go for the talent because that in the end always sells the movie better than the numbers do.

00:48:39:18 - 00:48:45:02

Billy DaMota

There's never been I mean, how many influencers do you know that have been nominated for an Academy Award? I mean.

00:48:45:18 - 00:48:47:13

Clark

I think zero so.

00:48:47:13 - 00:48:49:12

Billy DaMota

Far that would be, yeah, negative.

00:48:49:19 - 00:49:11:06

Clark

And, you know, I and I think it really shows these films. I mean, so and I think I even made shot you a little message just to use a specific example so colors I'm watching that recently and of course you have Sean Penn and Robert Duvall, which are huge actors. And, you know, like you said, Sean put that project together.

00:49:11:06 - 00:49:24:23

Clark

Robert Duvall, these actors are already attached to the project, right? I'm assuming you even get there. But and for my money, honestly, Trinidad Silva, who plays Frog in that film, I feel like steals.

00:49:25:09 - 00:49:25:19

Cullen

Every.

00:49:25:19 - 00:49:52:10

Clark

Single scene. He's so great. And do you know what? And I, I had a flashback I totally for and this is horrible, I'm sure. But when I was a kid and watching this film, so this came out in 88, I was 12. I probably watched it on HBO, you know, a year or two after this. Right? So here I'm this little white kid in Missouri, and I used to have an impression of frog that I would do for my friend.

00:49:53:15 - 00:49:56:20

Cullen

I just to all man wife love.

00:49:57:01 - 00:49:59:06

Clark

What I'm saying. HOLMES All the time. You know.

00:50:00:04 - 00:50:02:00

Cullen

What? I'm. HOLMES But he's.

00:50:02:00 - 00:50:07:21

Clark

Fantastic in that film. So great and and and Damon Wayans is funny in that film and then one.

00:50:07:21 - 00:50:09:20

Billy DaMota

Of Damon Wayans first films because first.

00:50:09:20 - 00:50:10:09

Clark

Films.

00:50:10:10 - 00:50:21:23

Billy DaMota

I got him right out of the Comedy Store. Yeah. I mean, I saw him on the at the Comedy Store doing some crazy stuff and he yeah, and he came in and did the same crazy stuff in the audition, you know, And he's.

00:50:22:06 - 00:50:27:23

Cullen

He's like, he's, he's wearing diaper. He's wearing a diaper in the film. These are these.

00:50:27:23 - 00:50:31:09

Clark

Are the things that and Don Cheadle, this is an early film for.

00:50:31:09 - 00:50:32:23

Billy DaMota

Him. It was one of his first movies.

00:50:33:07 - 00:50:54:20

Clark

And I just absolutely love to see that in it. I mean, it's one of my absolute pleasures to see those kind of roles that that you don't expect. And and I just it it And do you have any fun stories? Like I'm just curious, do you remember casting Frog? Do you remember?

00:50:54:20 - 00:51:17:13

Billy DaMota

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that every frog was a friend of Sean Penn, so he came in to audition, but Sean was in the room for that one. And I always love it when he came by because he would he would read with the actors and and but he you have to remember that that movie, we cast real gang members.

00:51:17:13 - 00:51:20:04

Clark

So, yeah, I was curious about that, too.

00:51:20:04 - 00:51:30:13

Billy DaMota

Well. Well, Denis and I, he would we would take midnight run sometimes and we would get in his 1978 Cadillac Seville.

00:51:31:09 - 00:51:37:07

Clark

I mean, this is where I blown my I mean, I just want to I just want to slow down for a second. So you're with Dennis Hopper?

00:51:37:15 - 00:51:38:01

Billy DaMota

Yes.

00:51:38:06 - 00:51:41:15

Clark

And you're in a Cadillac. What did you say? A 78.

00:51:41:19 - 00:51:43:06

Billy DaMota

A 78 Cadillac, Seville.

00:51:43:06 - 00:51:47:09

Clark

78 Cadillac Seville. And you're driving through the streets of Los Angeles.

00:51:47:18 - 00:51:49:06

Billy DaMota

At 2:00 in the morning.

00:51:49:06 - 00:51:51:07

Clark

That already blows my mind. I know.

00:51:51:16 - 00:51:52:09

Cullen

That's already.

00:51:52:09 - 00:51:53:04

Clark

So amazing.

00:51:53:18 - 00:51:57:07

Speaker 4

I mean, I'm just imagining from the point of view of a gang member, suddenly Dennis Hopper shows up.

00:51:58:13 - 00:52:19:14

Billy DaMota

It's dead. Well, wait. I'm going to tell you the story. Yeah, You know, it's Dennis Hopper. It's Dennis fucking Hopper. So Dennis is. Dennis is like he's the ultimate rebel. So he says to me one day, he says, Hey, who could we you know, we. I want to go out and meet the gang members. Is it Dennis? You can't just, you know, you can't go meet gang members.

00:52:19:14 - 00:52:46:01

Billy DaMota

You know, you can't go there. Why not? So what we did what I did is I called we were dealing with crash and Crash was the was the gang intervention unit with the LAPD. And they were and they knew all the heads of all the gangs, the white Fence and the Crips and the Bloods and all the way from San Pedro to, you know, to Simi Valley.

00:52:46:01 - 00:53:01:10

Billy DaMota

And they so I called them and they set me up with the the the the guy who I guess sort of the liaison for the Bloods.

00:53:01:23 - 00:53:02:06

Clark

Okay.

00:53:02:11 - 00:53:19:07

Billy DaMota

And and they were going to they wanted to meet us at a place it was near watchtowers. I can't remember exactly the name of the place at some park at 2:00 in the morning on a random night.

00:53:19:17 - 00:53:20:15

Clark

And at all.

00:53:20:21 - 00:53:21:22

Billy DaMota

Not to catch you also.

00:53:22:05 - 00:53:22:21

Cullen

So, Dennis.

00:53:23:06 - 00:53:50:17

Billy DaMota

To Dennis, Dennis says, Let's I want to do it, man. Let's go. Sure. Okay. You white boy. Now, you know, I. I grew up in, you know, in not the best neighborhood, so I'm familiar with the streets, but I'm not, you know, I mean, I got a Polaroid camera, you know, and that's what I got. So we're driving in a 78 Cadillac Seville, and we go to we go to a to this meeting at 2:00 in the morning.

00:53:50:17 - 00:54:04:17

Billy DaMota

We pull into a parking lot, and all I can remember is, oh, you know, the parking lot with all the the the lights lighting the parking lot and, complete quiet. We just park there. We have a prearranged meeting and there's nobody there.

00:54:05:00 - 00:54:05:11

Cullen

Yeah.

00:54:05:15 - 00:54:09:15

Billy DaMota

And all of a sudden you're boom.

00:54:09:23 - 00:54:11:08

Cullen

Boom, boom, boom.

00:54:13:01 - 00:54:20:05

Billy DaMota

What's that? There's cars that are starting to pull in, and they're all red cars or red Chevelle. It's kind of bouncing on it.

00:54:20:05 - 00:54:20:23

Clark

Yeah. Yeah.

00:54:21:06 - 00:54:35:21

Billy DaMota

And a red Porsche and a mercedes and a and I had a Cadillac. And there's all these cars that are they're pulling into the line. There's literally 20 cars in there. And all these guys start to get out of the car and, you know, right around us, right?

00:54:36:03 - 00:54:36:22

Clark

Yeah. Yeah.

00:54:37:05 - 00:54:52:12

Billy DaMota

And Dennis gets out of the car and he's like, you know, and and, you know, whoever was like the sort of the head of this particular entourage came up and greeted. Dennis Yeah. Hey man you that you easy.

00:54:52:12 - 00:54:53:13

Cullen

Ride or man.

00:54:54:05 - 00:54:56:21

Clark

That's what I was going to ask. Did they recognize them? Did they know?

00:54:56:21 - 00:55:02:04

Billy DaMota

Course they reacted. They recognized that man and Blue Velvet man. What was that you put on your face?

00:55:02:04 - 00:55:04:16

Cullen

Well, I.

00:55:04:16 - 00:55:31:17

Billy DaMota

I was like, and, you know, we were high fiving and the music was playing and they had their doo rags out and they were dancing. And there was and the music and they, you know, they would pop their trunks and they had like acres and hand grenades in there, you know. And I just, I was out and I was armed with my Polaroid, and I was I was tasked with taking, you know, Polaroids and all these guys get their numbers.

00:55:32:06 - 00:55:59:07

Billy DaMota

Wow. And then they would say, you know, take a picture, my car, man. Oh, my car to be in the movie. So then I started taking pictures of cars and so and, you know, and then we would we basically go through all the pictures, Dennis and I and Lauren Lloyd, who was the other casting director on the movie, and we would we would pick out the people that we were going to bring in and, you know, do auditions.

00:55:59:07 - 00:56:27:03

Billy DaMota

And and I'll never forget there was like a there was a guy named what was his name? T Rogers was his name is in the movie. T Rogers was he was he was a blood. He was I'm trying to say I'm trying to remember whether he was red or blue. And actually I think he might have I think he might have been a Crip, but we needed somebody to play a blood and he played a blood the movie.

00:56:27:03 - 00:56:27:15

Billy DaMota

And it was like.

00:56:27:15 - 00:56:33:00

Clark

Dr. Feelgood is his credited name. If that rings a bell. So you're right. Yeah.

00:56:33:08 - 00:56:52:22

Billy DaMota

And and when he got to the set, he looked at you, looked at all the production designer had painted all the walls and stuff, and he said, Man, what is that shit on the wall? I mean, and the guy was saying, What's that? You know, graffiti.

00:56:54:01 - 00:56:54:13

Cullen

Oh, man.

00:56:54:13 - 00:57:09:07

Billy DaMota

We don't do like that. And he way. And so I said, Well, you help me out. They repainted the whole, they grade the wall, they repainted it all and he went and he did, we grabbed his spray paint, he did the whole wall and he went on to become a consultant for movies.

00:57:09:07 - 00:57:09:23

Cullen

I'll be it.

00:57:11:08 - 00:57:34:12

Billy DaMota

In the future for other stuff. And then he started this thing called Sidewalk. You I'll never forget where he would call me and would. And he got out of the gangs and he he got a he started a sort of an intervention program where he will because, you know, gang, the gang members could not leave voluntarily. You can't just say, hey, man, I want to be in the movies, you know?

00:57:35:01 - 00:57:51:18

Billy DaMota

Yeah. So he would help channel them out and find them jobs in the entertainment business. You know, there were there were kids that would come up to me on the set, literally, you know, 15 or 16 year old extras that we'd hired for the movie that we, you know, how much I we making for this movie? You're making $180 a day.

00:57:52:17 - 00:57:56:13

Billy DaMota

And, you know, in 1988, $188 for an extra jack. Extra.

00:57:56:23 - 00:57:57:12

Cullen

Yeah.

00:57:57:12 - 00:58:05:14

Billy DaMota

And and we don't have to sell no drugs or nothing and I get 180. It's like they, they couldn't believe that they could actually.

00:58:05:21 - 00:58:06:09

Clark

Did everything.

00:58:06:19 - 00:58:16:07

Billy DaMota

Right And they said but they would whisper to me how do I do this man? How can I do this? How can I do this for a living? How can I I want to do this, You know, I want to get out, is what they were saying.

00:58:16:14 - 00:58:17:02

Clark

Yeah.

00:58:17:08 - 00:58:39:13

Billy DaMota

Which was pretty amazing. You know, they're. Yeah. So anyway, there was another guy named Peter Vasquez who was in that movie, Peter Vasquez. Was he play Flaco, I think is the name of his character. And he he had this great scene where interaction with with Robert Duvall and he was white fence. He was it was OG. And the guy was like, I think he's probably in his early forties.

00:58:39:20 - 00:59:03:23

Billy DaMota

He started a company called Suspect Entertainment with another gang member who basically were now representing ex-gang members for music videos and for movies and stuff. And and so they found their way out, sort of channeled their way out of the gang life. But yeah, anyway, there's there there's a million stories from that movie. But it's that was one of my.

00:59:04:00 - 00:59:29:18

Clark

I love it. I love these things. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like it was just such an extraordinary experience. And at least for me, I find these kind of stories just captivating and interesting, just that these like little windows into, you know, I mean, look, you know, I absolutely love cinema. It's just I mean, it's my passion. And so I just find these little stories are kind of windows into a view that you don't ever get to, you know, get to see.

00:59:29:18 - 00:59:32:03

Clark

So it's just, you know, I'm fascinated and.

00:59:32:09 - 00:59:52:16

Billy DaMota

There's a lot I mean, in every movie is like that. Every movie, every moment in stories that are that that if the public only knew, you know, I'd say, yeah, that's why I love putting up these Polaroids on my Facebook page, because it allows it allows me to to sort of, you know, expound a little bit on the history of the of the actors in the movie.

00:59:53:02 - 01:00:02:03

Clark

It hooked me and I and I will say I don't know if there'd be any legal issues with this, but I just I feel like you should do a coffee table book. I think it would be fantastic.

01:00:02:03 - 01:00:03:05

Cullen

I'm thinking about all I got.

01:00:03:05 - 01:00:06:02

Billy DaMota

I have to figure out to do. I probably should have to get permission from the actors.

01:00:06:07 - 01:00:09:12

Clark

Yeah, if you've got a few minutes. Are you okay on time? Do you have.

01:00:09:15 - 01:00:18:06

Billy DaMota

Also by you know, Courtney Gaines was in colors too you played the he played though the the white kid the one the token white gang member.

01:00:18:12 - 01:00:19:17

Cullen

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:19:17 - 01:00:21:05

Clark

The ginger. Not to. I don't do.

01:00:21:06 - 01:00:23:18

Cullen

It right, right. Yeah. And no, he's great.

01:00:24:02 - 01:00:44:21

Clark

I mean there's such, there's such character and, and flavor in these roles. That's what I'm saying. I mean all those things really stand out to me when I watch. I mean, you know, another one that if you've got a couple of minutes, that Miracle Mile is, Oh, what a fantastic film. And this is another film that.

01:00:44:21 - 01:00:47:09

Billy DaMota

Was my first movie casting all by myself was.

01:00:47:12 - 01:00:55:20

Clark

So tell us about that. I mean, was that was that a big jump for you? Were you anxious, excited, all the above? Like, how did that. It was a big jump there.

01:00:55:21 - 01:01:14:07

Billy DaMota

It was a became I just come off of colors. Yeah. Lauren Lloyd was my you know, I was her associate on colors we were working together on on that movie and she couldn't do Miracle Mile. Steve Dejan at the director had asked her because I guess they were friends. And she said, Well, you have Billy do it. He's, you know, he's good.

01:01:15:00 - 01:01:21:02

Billy DaMota

And so Steve and I became friends and I read the script and I fell in love with it. And we started casting.

01:01:21:02 - 01:01:23:19

Cullen

And I mean, there's a.

01:01:23:19 - 01:01:27:10

Billy DaMota

Ham down movie was when Ham Dale It was the million dollar budget.

01:01:27:20 - 01:01:28:20

Clark

Yeah, tiny.

01:01:29:10 - 01:01:29:20

Billy DaMota

Tiny.

01:01:30:04 - 01:01:42:23

Clark

Tiny movie shot at night on in L.A. And I feel like it's a it shows L.A. It's L.A. is such a fantastic I mean, if people if you want to see L.A. in in the eighties, this film shoots L.A. so beautifully. Yeah.

01:01:43:07 - 01:02:10:14

Billy DaMota

It's all shot in. It's all shot in Miracle Mile. It's all right there in that in that one one block area. And they go down to that. But it's it starts in Miracle Mile and then the I don't know if you know this, but from the time that he finds out that that there's you know, that there's a a in a nuclear nuclear missile headed toward Los Angeles, it turns into real time.

01:02:10:14 - 01:02:32:06

Billy DaMota

So, yes, from there to the end of the movie, it's it's, you know, whatever the real time in the film is. So it's a it's it's exciting to watch it. And and it visually, it just, you know, it was Theo Van de Santé who was the the beautiful cinematographer who went on to do tons of stuff. But he that was one of his first films, too.

01:02:32:06 - 01:02:46:14

Billy DaMota

So again, another movie where a lot of people kind of jumped off that off to much bigger careers, the production designer. And and and I think Jamie Horner was that which is Jamie Horner did the music I'm trying to remember.

01:02:47:04 - 01:02:50:03

Clark

That's a good question. Not what? Well, Tangerine Dream.

01:02:50:06 - 01:02:51:17

Billy DaMota

Tangerine Dream right did the right.

01:02:51:17 - 01:02:53:13

Clark

Which of course everybody and.

01:02:53:13 - 01:02:57:15

Billy DaMota

Steve went to Austria to actually sit with Tangerine Dream and compose, help compose.

01:02:57:15 - 01:03:21:12

Clark

Them. It's an amazing soundtrack. And I think I have you posted about Tangerine Dream, too, but I'm a huge fan of Tangerine Dream and their scores, their scores in the eighties are just some of my favorite films epic, But I mean, this film, it's I mean, obviously you have Anthony Edwards, Mare Winningham are fantastic, but there's some other people that really stand out to me, like Kelly Joe Mentor.

01:03:21:22 - 01:03:37:11

Clark

Oh yeah. When I was when I was a kid, I loved her in summer school. She just has like the best voice. I think she's just a great presence in this film. I, I'd forgotten that she's in this. And like Alan Rosenberg, who actually went on to be said president for president.

01:03:37:11 - 01:03:38:03

Billy DaMota

That's correct.

01:03:38:03 - 01:03:38:19

Cullen

He did. Yeah.

01:03:39:07 - 01:03:44:22

Billy DaMota

And Denise Crosby was in it all.

01:03:44:22 - 01:03:49:12

Clark

And Jones Ryan Thompson is somebody who stands out to me.

01:03:49:12 - 01:03:51:23

Billy DaMota

Oh, Brian Thompson. Yeah, it was Terminator. I mean, he's.

01:03:51:23 - 01:03:52:07

Cullen

Such a.

01:03:52:07 - 01:03:54:04

Clark

Singular face. Yeah.

01:03:54:07 - 01:03:55:14

Billy DaMota

And Jenette.

01:03:55:14 - 01:03:56:03

Clark

Goldstein.

01:03:57:00 - 01:04:01:19

Billy DaMota

You that goes in. Great. Who went on to work with Cameron? She James Cameron, Right.

01:04:02:04 - 01:04:16:06

Clark

I mean, she's fantastic. And and I missed this. I had to go back and I actually didn't I didn't notice this until I listened to the commentary. There's a new release on Blu ray for this film, actually, which is a really beautiful restoration. So get a chance to check it out.

01:04:16:19 - 01:04:17:15

Cullen

Peter Berg.

01:04:18:05 - 01:04:19:05

Billy DaMota

Oh yeah. Peter Berg.

01:04:19:12 - 01:04:20:05

Clark

That card I.

01:04:20:10 - 01:04:21:07

Billy DaMota

Have partly.

01:04:21:07 - 01:04:23:20

Cullen

Peter Yeah, I'm.

01:04:24:05 - 01:04:45:15

Billy DaMota

Peter Berg and he wasn't even supposed to get his SAG card. But we, you know, he this is very funny. He played the sax player in the band, you know, here. Yeah, here he was shallow. Was the trombone player in a, in a traveling band that was coming through town. And they met, you know, at the Edwards meets Mary Winningham at Johnny's Diner, which is still there.

01:04:45:15 - 01:04:47:22

Billy DaMota

And they still use at the time it was a real diner.

01:04:48:03 - 01:04:49:06

Clark

Yeah. Now what it.

01:04:49:06 - 01:04:50:20

Billy DaMota

Was now is just for filming.

01:04:51:01 - 01:04:52:22

Clark

For filming? Yeah.

01:04:52:22 - 01:05:31:09

Billy DaMota

And he meets her there and and then he. Yeah, he, she goes to see him in the park where Pan Pacific Park went before, before it burned down, you know, because we used Steve was amazing in finding these great old, you know, Los Angeles landmarks and so there's a scene where he stands up and where they're playing in the band, and Peter Berg stands up with the saxophone to take a and Harry kind of like, you know, he's trying to impress his girl and he stands up with his trombone instead and Peter sits back down.

01:05:31:14 - 01:05:38:16

Billy DaMota

That was his big gain. And technically you're supposed to say something before you get Taft-Hartley, but right, we Taft-Hartley it anyways.

01:05:38:17 - 01:05:41:17

Cullen

And well, and then.

01:05:42:02 - 01:05:45:22

Clark

And then the rest is history obviously went on to do a lot, but.

01:05:46:22 - 01:05:47:08

Cullen

That's just.

01:05:47:16 - 01:05:58:23

Billy DaMota

What it is. Well I'm just blanking on that. On his name the Who went on to have a great career you know Forrest Gump.

01:05:59:04 - 01:06:02:16

Clark

Oh yeah that's McNulty. Williamson Yeah.

01:06:02:17 - 01:06:08:15

Billy DaMota

Mykelti Williamson Yeah. And who used to be before he was Michael. T He was Michael.

01:06:08:22 - 01:06:10:12

Clark

T Yes. And.

01:06:11:02 - 01:06:18:12

Billy DaMota

And it's funny, he was actually Michael. T his credit in original credit. The movie is Michael T Williamson and then it is and.

01:06:18:19 - 01:06:27:01

Clark

And in the commentary track the director this is interesting the director actually apologized as for the misspelling in the credits but it was actually how he.

01:06:27:10 - 01:06:28:03

Billy DaMota

That's how he spelled.

01:06:28:03 - 01:06:29:12

Clark

It that's how spelled got it back.

01:06:29:12 - 01:06:33:09

Billy DaMota

Right it wasn't there was no Michael and why it wasn't all one word.

01:06:33:09 - 01:06:35:04

Cullen

It was Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:06:35:14 - 01:06:53:18

Clark

I just thought that was an interesting piece of trivia. I mean, just, you know, as we kind of wrap up. Well, wait. Okay, so I have to ask, and I don't mean to put you on the spot, Billy, but I just was, like, above the law. Do you have any ridiculous stories working with Steven Seagal now? I don't know if he was ridiculous back then, but he kind.

01:06:54:00 - 01:06:54:16

Cullen

Him a little.

01:06:54:16 - 01:06:56:11

Billy DaMota

Bit. He he he became ridiculous.

01:06:56:11 - 01:06:58:02

Cullen

No, he he was.

01:06:58:02 - 01:07:24:07

Billy DaMota

Still he was still kind of a dick, but. Yeah, but he was he was a younger, nicer dick. His stick. You know, you have to you have to remember that Steven's whole life is based on a lie. I mean, everything. Everything that he says or has done in his life, he made up or he exaggerated or he extrapolated from and in totally.

01:07:24:07 - 01:07:35:00

Clark

Turn, it's a fake. I have seen videos of his supposedly, I don't want to use the martial arts technique, for example, which apparently a lot of that's fabricated.

01:07:35:06 - 01:07:37:01

Cullen

Well well.

01:07:37:01 - 01:07:54:15

Billy DaMota

I spoke to a few people who said, you know, he was married to a Japanese woman and he lived in Japan. Her father was the head of the dojo. He's probably going to hear this and try to kick my ass. I'm going to I'll tell you a couple of good stories about Steven about so so I'd love to hear it.

01:07:54:21 - 01:08:16:07

Billy DaMota

So he he he was he was he moved here having having saying that he became the you know, he was the whatever the highest degree of thing you can get in in like window or whatever are not going to end in.

01:08:16:17 - 01:08:17:17

Speaker 4

This kind of thing.

01:08:17:21 - 01:08:19:10

Clark

Like, like 10th degree. Right.

01:08:19:17 - 01:08:32:13

Billy DaMota

Yeah. What would happen is that because he was married to a Japanese woman whose father ran the dojo, he kind of let it slide. It has been said that the the the father was sleeping when he took his test.

01:08:32:13 - 01:08:35:08

Cullen

So, you know.

01:08:35:08 - 01:08:53:21

Billy DaMota

You can you know, and also people that have watched him do his his stuff saying that it's, you know, it's theatrical aikido, it's not real, but You know, the story is that he was he had a dojo on the corner of Santa monica Boulevard and La Cienega.

01:08:53:21 - 01:08:55:09

Clark

And now is this back then?

01:08:55:09 - 01:09:20:00

Billy DaMota

Is this was back then? Yes, this is this is in 1980. What would happen is in 1987, 88, there was going to be a writers strike there. It was pending in the early part of the year, and Mikovits decided he wanted to make a movie out of a script that he had heard from would go back that Stephen had the the dojo.

01:09:20:08 - 01:09:26:23

Billy DaMota

Mike Ovitz, the head of CAA, was one of his students in the class, was taken by Akito.

01:09:27:09 - 01:09:37:07

Clark

There's the connection because I've always wondered, well, not to cut you, but how in the world somebody like Steven Seagal even gets this big of a shot. But, well.

01:09:37:18 - 01:10:08:05

Billy DaMota

It's like, well, what happened is he would pitch the story to Mikovits telling him about how he was in the CIA and that when he was in Vietnam, he was involved in the Vang Pao heroin cartel, you know, to help stop that. And that basically what he did is he took the idea from the Christa Institute. The Christa Institute talks about the real story of how heroin being channeled into the inner cities in the eighties was a huge problem.

01:10:08:05 - 01:10:37:02

Billy DaMota

And he took that and he extrapolated on it. Yeah, basically turned it his own story, talking about how and you're going to have to figure out how to edit this. And so I don't get sued. But he but he basically would tell people the story that he was in the CIA. This is what he told Mikovits I was in the CIA I helped stop the heroin trade and in South Vietnam, I mean, I don't even know if he's old enough to be that.

01:10:37:02 - 01:11:02:15

Billy DaMota

I mean, he's he just turns that so and and so my brother said, Hey, let's make a movie. So I get a call. I get a call from Robert Solo, who is the guy who was one of the producers on Colors. And he said, I'm working on this movie and and you want to cast it with this new guy.

01:11:02:20 - 01:11:07:06

Billy DaMota

And the first thing he said to me is he's kind of a dick. But, you know, I guess a good story.

01:11:07:09 - 01:11:12:23

Clark

Right up to now. And this was so I'm not I'm not a Steven Seagal scholar, so you'll have to forgive me.

01:11:12:23 - 01:11:13:08

Billy DaMota

Now, know.

01:11:13:09 - 01:11:13:20

Cullen

This is.

01:11:13:20 - 01:11:15:19

Clark

His first this is his first film, right?

01:11:15:19 - 01:11:16:22

Billy DaMota

It's his first film, right?

01:11:16:22 - 01:11:17:14

Clark

Yeah. Yeah.

01:11:18:05 - 01:11:31:22

Billy DaMota

And so and and this is what I hear. This is just the stories that I hear that he is living with Kelly Le Brock, and. And I think he actually got married to her when he was still married to the Japanese woman.

01:11:31:22 - 01:11:32:07

Clark

Oh, my.

01:11:33:08 - 01:11:59:11

Billy DaMota

And and you know, the the the, the general you know, knowledge of Steven in the in in the eighties that he was kind of a freeloader and he, he had a Rolls Royce. He bought a Rolls Royce one of the you know like a 1965 or, you know, the old ones, because he could drive a Rolls Royce around in Beverly Hills and pretend like he was whatever.

01:11:59:20 - 01:12:00:16

Cullen

Right.

01:12:00:23 - 01:12:20:02

Billy DaMota

I think somebody said he was sleeping in it when he met Kelly the Brock Wow. And and so they so he he convinced Mike Ovitz to make the movie and they put it in the production amazing. And and thankfully we found a great cast to support him Henry Silver who one of my favorite actors of all time.

01:12:20:08 - 01:12:21:07

Clark

Yeah yeah.

01:12:21:12 - 01:12:22:16

Billy DaMota

And he for all although.

01:12:26:21 - 01:12:27:12

Cullen

Pam Grier.

01:12:27:12 - 01:12:28:06

Billy DaMota

Pam Grier.

01:12:28:06 - 01:12:30:12

Clark

Pam Yeah John C Reilly Amazing.

01:12:30:12 - 01:12:32:20

Speaker 4

John C Reilly Know God is great.

01:12:33:02 - 01:12:37:20

Billy DaMota

Yeah right. There were some really, really great talent in the movie.

01:12:37:21 - 01:12:53:21

Clark

Now I'm curious, you know, because you kind of talked about colors. You know, Sean Penn was these sessions had a lot of influence, I would say, or had a lot of say. Worked closely with you on the cast in this film Above the Law. Did Steven Seagal, was he, you know.

01:12:53:21 - 01:12:56:21

Billy DaMota

Every single session he was in every single.

01:12:56:21 - 01:12:57:06

Clark

Cast.

01:12:57:15 - 01:13:00:23

Billy DaMota

Because he wanted to be there when the girls were reading.

01:13:01:09 - 01:13:04:06

Cullen

Oh, I was you know, I mean, in my.

01:13:04:06 - 01:13:05:07

Speaker 4

Mind, I said, you.

01:13:05:07 - 01:13:05:21

Clark

Really had to.

01:13:06:15 - 01:13:06:20

Cullen

You.

01:13:06:20 - 01:13:12:10

Clark

Really had to earn your money on that one. I mean, you basically have him looking over your shoulder. I'm imagining it.

01:13:12:10 - 01:13:18:14

Billy DaMota

You were still like an excited kid, though. And he he gave me a lot of different things. Billy, can I sit in on this one? Can I do?

01:13:18:18 - 01:13:20:21

Cullen

But, you know. Hey. Okay. He was the star.

01:13:21:04 - 01:13:24:02

Billy DaMota

He was the star of. The movie. And he knew he could if he wanted to, but.

01:13:24:03 - 01:13:26:06

Clark

He but he was actually pretty decent about it.

01:13:26:06 - 01:13:26:22

Billy DaMota

Yeah, he was.

01:13:27:02 - 01:13:46:22

Clark

Okay. Right on. What were some of your we? I know we've kind of talked a lot about your your earlier films, but. And you had kind of hinted that your work at Pure Flix and the faith based films and you were a part of probably like the largest right. Or one of the largest box office faith, faith based films.

01:13:46:22 - 01:13:48:20

Clark

The God Is Not Dead, Right?

01:13:48:22 - 01:13:49:17

Cullen

Wasn't that. Yeah.

01:13:50:01 - 01:14:12:04

Clark

And did you I'm just kind of curious. I'm not as familiar with that genre of film as I am some of these others. But what was that transition like? What did was there far as casting goes? Was there any significant difference to kind of how I mean, you talked a little bit about how they wanted to kind of steer you toward, you know, people that had social media, but, you know.

01:14:12:10 - 01:14:16:00

Billy DaMota

They also wanted to steer me toward, you know, people who are big in the Christian community, which makes.

01:14:16:01 - 01:14:17:02

Clark

Okay. Yeah.

01:14:17:15 - 01:14:38:10

Billy DaMota

So I did that again, though, trying to steer them in the direction of the best actor, not just the person who was the most Christian, you know, or had the most Christian followers. There were some people that we had to cast that I wasn't crazy about, But, you know, I worked on 35 movies for him. So 35 to end to TV series.

01:14:38:21 - 01:14:51:17

Billy DaMota

Oh, my goodness. And the biggest ones were the were the kind of the funniest of the Case for Christ was fun with with Alicia. So. And not her. What's her name? Blanca.

01:14:52:14 - 01:14:54:05

Cullen

It's okay I should.

01:14:54:05 - 01:14:55:17

Clark

We can added in poll after.

01:14:55:17 - 01:14:57:07

Billy DaMota

Poll I'm going to pull my I MTV.

01:14:57:07 - 01:14:59:06

Cullen

Here. Yeah pull it up. Pull it up so I.

01:14:59:06 - 01:15:00:17

Billy DaMota

Can even I remember.

01:15:02:07 - 01:15:02:23

Clark

I mean, it's really.

01:15:02:23 - 01:15:04:22

Speaker 4

CHRISTIANSON Yeah. Faye Dunaway.

01:15:05:12 - 01:15:08:10

Billy DaMota

Yeah. Faye or Faye Dunaway was was fun to work with.

01:15:08:22 - 01:15:29:16

Clark

Oh, my gosh. You know, and you've worked with so many people and you've worked on so many films, There's obviously no way we can touch on all of this. But I'm just curious, do you have any stories to share about Faye Dunaway? We actually just in one of our last episodes, we talked at length about the film Barfly, which of course Faye Dunaway is in and she's fantastic in.

01:15:29:21 - 01:15:36:00

Billy DaMota

Yeah, she was. She was good in the shoot. I said one scene, basically one day we got her for sort of a cameo.

01:15:36:00 - 01:15:36:10

Cullen

Yeah.

01:15:36:10 - 01:15:43:22

Billy DaMota

And paid her a lot of money. And she was terrific. She was.

01:15:43:22 - 01:15:44:08

Cullen

She.

01:15:44:13 - 01:15:59:14

Billy DaMota

She had some problems standing up because she had I think she had just had surgery, so I had to do most of it sitting down or we had to have her because there was some questions with her, her movement and her and the scene where she had to do some moving the scene. But no, but she was there.

01:15:59:21 - 01:16:11:12

Billy DaMota

But she was terrific. And mean. She was just you know, she's old movie star. So, yeah, you get some of the baggage that comes from that and you get, you know, the excitement that sort of overwhelms her.

01:16:11:12 - 01:16:17:09

Clark

But I would imagine so. Yeah. Somebody and that's. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Billy. You were.

01:16:17:17 - 01:16:43:17

Billy DaMota

But I but that was one of the movies where because I think a lot of people were sort of a lot of the main mainstream movie stars were sort of steering away from faith based movies because they didn't want to be labeled as a Christian actor. This movie, this movie came from Lisa Robles novel and are not novels.

01:16:43:19 - 01:17:04:02

Billy DaMota

This book actually was a novel. And it's a it's a, you know, a pretty it was made a little bit easier for them to get involved. So we got I mean, Erika Christensen and and Mike Vogel and Faye Dunaway and Frankie Faison, who is amazing in the movie Robert Forster in one of his last Oh.

01:17:04:14 - 01:17:26:06

Clark

I that's another actor that I feel like was really extraordinary. And I was, you know, it's and it's so interesting how people are cast, you know. So again, I was reading Quentin's book and he talks about how he came to cast or even had the idea to cast Forster in Jackie Brown. And he and speaking of Corman, we talked about a Corman flick, right?

01:17:26:06 - 01:17:35:05

Clark

You know, the very top of the podcast. And I don't know if you've ever seen this film, but Forster is the lead in Corman's Alligator, which is kind of like.

01:17:35:05 - 01:17:36:07

Billy DaMota

A movie that I'm familiar with.

01:17:36:07 - 01:18:06:17

Clark

Yeah, a Jaws knockoff, right about that ERA just replaced a shark with an alligator. Corman. Corman was the best at that. And but, but that performance had just stuck in Quentin's mind that even though the film is obviously pretty schlocky, that his performance was outstanding. And that was actually kind of the hook that stayed in his brain. Fast forward all the way to the mid nineties or late nineties and he has a bit of a career resurgence with his casting in Jackie Brown.

01:18:07:14 - 01:18:08:21

Clark

So wonderful in that.

01:18:08:21 - 01:18:41:11

Billy DaMota

Yeah, and it's Robert Forster who's been on, you know the scene for, you know, 50 years. He was, he was, you know, a working actor all the time was never, you know, he used to hang out at, at the silver spoon in West Hollywood, you know, along with, you know, all the other sort of movie stars that were not working anymore and are not working as much as they used to, you know, And and it gave him a real a real you know, he really pumped up his career especially with the, you know, Academy Award nomination and everything.

01:18:41:22 - 01:18:43:12

Clark

It's got to be fun to see that.

01:18:43:12 - 01:18:51:19

Billy DaMota

I got a chance to work with him in a movie called Touching Home with Ed Harris. That was one of my favorite movies because.

01:18:51:22 - 01:18:52:22

Speaker 4

We spoke about that. I mean.

01:18:53:12 - 01:18:55:13

Billy DaMota

That yeah, it was a fun movie.

01:18:55:20 - 01:19:00:06

Clark

What about that film? Was kind of made that one of your favorites? Was there anything.

01:19:00:06 - 01:19:38:03

Billy DaMota

Specific? You know what I loved? This is the two brothers here. I'm going to go back to my Yeager boy names now. But it was it was it was the whole process because you have to remember that these were two guys that wrote a script and it won the Panavision Best New Screenplay award. And they got $100,000 prize money and they wound up, you know, making a an amazing base because they were both baseball guys, you know, making a amazing baseball kind of a promo.

01:19:39:09 - 01:19:47:13

Billy DaMota

Let me go down here. I'm going to look at it. It's like I'm just trying to find the I'm going to have my eye candy.

01:19:47:13 - 01:19:48:19

Cullen

But you've got.

01:19:48:19 - 01:19:49:20

Clark

So many films.

01:19:50:03 - 01:19:51:16

Billy DaMota

There's a lot of stuff here, man.

01:19:52:04 - 01:19:59:02

Clark

It's it's understandable that you might forget a few details right away.

01:19:59:02 - 01:20:25:03

Billy DaMota

So it was almost this touching home here. It was such a home. The Miller Brothers. Yes. Logan Brothers. Yeah. Were twins. And they they you know, the Miller brothers, too, in order to fund their movies where they did modeling for like Calvin Klein. There was a there was a I think there's a very famous picture that one of them put up or the other of this poster on Sunset Boulevard in his underwear.

01:20:25:03 - 01:20:25:10

Billy DaMota

You know.

01:20:25:13 - 01:20:26:06

Cullen

I'll be darned.

01:20:26:13 - 01:20:52:06

Billy DaMota

Calvin Klein. So they, they they you know, they had aspirations to be baseball players growing up and their their alcoholic father kind of ruined that for them. But they never lost their love for their father. So when he passed away, they did the story of of their, you know, their aspirations to be Major League Baseball and. You know, Ed Harris is there is their dysfunctional father who is so good.

01:20:52:14 - 01:21:11:05

Billy DaMota

He's so and in the movies, just amazing. But that was one of the that was one of my favorite movies, just too. I love the hanging out. I loved hanging out with them and their energy and their their passion, you know, to make movies. I don't know if they really done anything since then. I think they went on to do a couple.

01:21:11:05 - 01:21:15:12

Speaker 4

They did Dumb White Boy Rick, which I heard a lot about in 2018 oh.

01:21:16:12 - 01:21:17:13

Clark

Where they have Logan.

01:21:17:13 - 01:21:19:12

Speaker 4

One of them did not they but I think they both were involved.

01:21:19:12 - 01:21:24:05

Cullen

In that and I'll have to ask that. Yeah.

01:21:24:05 - 01:21:32:14

Billy DaMota

What if you can rent it because it's a it's a terrific movie and it's shot beautifully. It's it looks great. It's it and it's a fun story. Brad Dourif is great in the movie.

01:21:32:23 - 01:21:36:23

Speaker 4

Oh, yeah. We were in Brad terms, one of my favorite actors over there.

01:21:37:11 - 01:21:44:23

Billy DaMota

And you know, Lee Meriwether, you know, the bad, bad girl, that woman, she was terrific in it, too.

01:21:44:23 - 01:22:05:03

Clark

So yeah, you know, one of the things that's just at least for me, most entertaining or to hear about some of these stories of how you how you found some of these actors that that ended up being, you know, your experiences with some or maybe some of your early experiences with some of actors who were at the very beginning of their career.

01:22:05:08 - 01:22:32:17

Clark

And I'm kind of, you know, curious what what was kind of there what if you could kind of maybe define the spark that was there maybe that you saw for some of these people is you're see dozens or hundreds of people. And just and I know it might be hard to kind of articulate it, but maybe we can try just what's that spark that you feel like when somebody walks in the room and you're like, Oh, I think this person's going to be a star?

01:22:32:17 - 01:23:03:07

Billy DaMota

It's, you know, I don't know if it I can't say any bad words, but it's it's there's a there's a sort charisma that an actor has. And it's sort of like it's hard to explain. But you you walk into a restaurant and you see a beautiful woman or a beautiful man across the restaurant, and there's something that lights up the room and you go to or there's somebody there's some kind of charisma, and that's and there's a confidence.

01:23:03:18 - 01:23:24:21

Billy DaMota

I think, you know, if you if you meet somebody who is confident about what they do, even if they're not Oh, they're not the best yet. There's something really special about about their energy. And and I think as a casting director, what happens is you become more aware of that and you become more of a of a center right into it.

01:23:25:07 - 01:23:55:23

Billy DaMota

So, you know, people like Cameron Diaz, who came Cameron Diaz was a model. She never really done any acting at all. And Alex Proyas, who was the director, I finished I just finished working with Alex on a on on a a along a bunch of commercials. And he was just starting this new Australia Australian Coca-Cola campaign and he was looking for a girl for the campaign and.

01:23:56:02 - 01:24:25:21

Billy DaMota

All right and so Alex produced by the way, I went on to work with him on iRobot and the Crow. He's a amazing director he's on who directed The Crow and and Cameron came in. There were there were probably 200 women that came in in the scene as a woman running along the beach in Australia toward a White House, toward a lighthouse that is projecting a big Coca-Cola banner for.

01:24:25:21 - 01:24:26:14

Clark

A Coke commercial.

01:24:26:18 - 01:24:32:17

Billy DaMota

Coke commercial. Right. And and so we were looking at all these girls in their bikinis, right? And the girls.

01:24:33:02 - 01:24:37:08

Clark

And Steven Seagal pops in and says, Hey, can I join?

01:24:37:08 - 01:24:38:14

Cullen

I know, but I.

01:24:40:22 - 01:24:48:08

Billy DaMota

But there were other people that did want to drive. I whenever we did bikini sessions, there was always people outside the rooms that, hey, can I borrow a pencil.

01:24:48:08 - 01:24:50:00

Cullen

Or write.

01:24:50:06 - 01:25:07:15

Billy DaMota

Now? But, but so, but these were pretty routine. What happens is a girl would come in, she'd do a couple of lines, she'd drop her caftan and do a little spin in her bikini and she'd be gone. Well, camera guys came in and she had, like, cargo shorts and a tank top on, you know.

01:25:08:02 - 01:25:08:15

Clark

Yeah.

01:25:08:18 - 01:25:30:21

Billy DaMota

And, and, and, and she, and she was huge. She came in. I think the first thing she did was she told a joke and, and she had this a girl who just been on 17 magazine and was like a big, you know, print model and she was gorgeous And she was cute. I think at the time she was like 19 or 20 years old and.

01:25:30:21 - 01:25:40:11

Billy DaMota

And so Alex or somebody in the room said, or maybe it was me, do you wear a bikini? And she's looked at she goes, You don't need to see me a bikini.

01:25:40:12 - 01:25:43:08

Cullen

Trust me.

01:25:43:08 - 01:25:48:14

Billy DaMota

And and she just like you. She had the room cracking up.

01:25:48:20 - 01:25:49:07

Cullen

Yeah.

01:25:49:12 - 01:26:03:07

Billy DaMota

And and she told another joke and she said the line and she says, okay, goodbye. And she walked out. And then we all looked at each other and say, okay, that's the one. Yeah, she's the one we're going to cast.

01:26:03:14 - 01:26:26:04

Clark

It's amazing. God, you know, I, I, I look back at, you know, my early auditions and I just, like, I'm like, God, I wish that I would have, you know, and it's you can't manufacture that is the thing. Like you can't even know you can't manufacture it. And it's like, okay, I know that, you know, they're looking for X, Y, Z, and, you know, desperation is going to be the death of, you know, audition.

01:26:26:09 - 01:26:40:00

Clark

I mean, you can know all these things conceptually, but you've just got to own it in your body. You can't fake it, you can't manufacture it. And, you know, and I'm sure you were honed in on when somebody was like acting confident as opposed to actually.

01:26:40:01 - 01:26:50:03

Billy DaMota

Right. They'd be right. Yes, sure. Yeah. I mean, just when you when they walk in the room and they don't give a shit, they're just like, you know, here I am And there's a certain, you know, you confidence.

01:26:50:11 - 01:27:23:16

Clark

Yeah. It, it's, it really is wonderful to see. And I have been in casting sessions myself for different, you know, in different capacities either at a casting office or on my own projects. And you do you really, you really start to get a feel for it and, and it's really amazing when you've you know that when you've said in a session and you've just seen person after person and you're just like, I'm never going to be able to like there's just not, you know, and then and then you know, that one person walks in and you're just like, All right.

01:27:23:23 - 01:27:25:01

Cullen

Oh my God.

01:27:26:10 - 01:27:38:07

Billy DaMota

I'll tell you another funny story. So I'm I'm working on a movie called Brothers in Arms, probably 1988 or 87, 88.

01:27:38:07 - 01:27:38:16

Clark

Okay.

01:27:39:09 - 01:28:11:01

Billy DaMota

And it's a movie about these sort of Amish type men who live in the mountains, who wear long black coats and, ride around, you know, horse and buggies. Right. And and and there's a there's a production manager on the movie who says, hey, you know, I have a I have a new roommate. And he just came out from Saint Louis and he's trying to meet casting and and get into, you know, acting more.

01:28:11:01 - 01:28:33:13

Billy DaMota

And I wonder if he could come in and read for one of their roles. Such as? Sure. Haven't come in to read for, you know, whoever Jedidiah the young, young son. And so this kid comes in, he's got a long black coat, big had he dresses up for the audition is Brad Pitt and oh, and he probably one of his first auditions in Los Angeles.

01:28:33:13 - 01:28:59:16

Billy DaMota

I think he worked in some commercials and maybe done small TV stuff. Right? He wanted to do movies, so he came in and it was really cute music in early twenties, and he was reading for this thing in his Long Black Coat in his. And he was terrible. And and I but I saw something and I said, you know, you're not right for this, but I'll keep you.

01:28:59:17 - 01:29:11:13

Billy DaMota

I'll bring you in for something else in the future. Yeah. You know, he was like a puppy dog and he was like, he would call me every once in a while and he would talk, you know, what should I do? Should I be in classes, get new pictures, whatever. You know, we were kind of like buddies like that.

01:29:12:00 - 01:29:30:16

Billy DaMota

You actors that call casting directors and chat with them. But when I left the audition, I, I, I pinned his picture on the wall behind me in my office. And when I, you know, it's I call it the wall of Shame, where you have just, you know, pictures of actors that you like, that you keep up there just to keep in your memory.

01:29:30:22 - 01:29:59:18

Billy DaMota

And I mean, I had Helen Hunt's picture up there. I had I tell you, the Helen Hunt story, too. In a minute. That's a good one. So so time goes on. Brad doesn't get that movie. Yeah. And, and I get a call from what was the name of the. It was a movie called Oh Dear. And we got to look at my IMDB.

01:29:59:22 - 01:30:01:01

Cullen

It's okay.

01:30:01:11 - 01:30:04:18

Billy DaMota

It's, it's, it was really bad movie Carlo Rambaldi.

01:30:05:01 - 01:30:06:10

Clark

Who just forgotten it. Yeah.

01:30:06:15 - 01:30:24:12

Billy DaMota

Carlo Rambaldi is the guy who who was the who was special effects Italian special effects guy who created the creature E.T. He created the actual created the E.T. His son. I'm going to find his name right here. Hold on a finger down here.

01:30:25:04 - 01:30:48:20

Clark

You know, while you're looking. You know, it's just a totally random, weird piece of trivia. So, you know, there there were there were a of ways that they did the E.T. puppet. You know, there was like a puppet and then there wasn't. So there were some there was one version where I guess you needed to be able to see where they had an actual person in the suit and yeah, one person and this person didn't have the majority of their legs.

01:30:48:20 - 01:31:12:22

Clark

And I'm not quite sure exactly what had happened to this, you know, why that came to be for this individual. But I actually ended up working with him. Wow. At a at a software company out in Redlands, which is, you know, whatever. No. Yeah. Yeah. It's like 50, 60 miles east of L.A. or maybe it's only 30 or so, but it feels like 60 because it's like two hour drive on the ten.

01:31:13:06 - 01:31:25:04

Clark

But I actually worked with him and super nice guy. Fantastic. But that was, you know, his one little foray Hollywood. But I was like, I tell people I worked with E.T., it's kind of but.

01:31:25:21 - 01:31:32:03

Speaker 4

Remember, we also did Alien, which we did, um, last episode. So there's a little connection.

01:31:32:03 - 01:31:38:01

Billy DaMota

Yeah, there's a lot of people that are amputees and that are Yeah. Or, you know, they, they get, they get a lot of work in those kinds of things.

01:31:38:01 - 01:31:38:22

Clark

Yeah, yeah.

01:31:39:11 - 02:50:25:01

Billy DaMota

Movie was called Primal Rage.

Episode - 060 - Being John Malkovich

Cullen

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Soldiers of Summer Podcast. Episode 60. I am Cullen McFater and I am joined, as always by Clark Coffey. And today we are discussing Clark's choice, the 1999 film Being John Malkovich. How are you doing today?

00:00:31:07 - 00:00:32:18

Clark

I'm doing all right, man. How are you?

00:00:33:01 - 00:00:36:00

Cullen

I'm good. I am good at what is being what is.

00:00:36:00 - 00:00:37:20

Speaker 3

Well, what I say I'm good.

00:00:38:03 - 00:00:41:20

Clark

Of course. Sadly, our audience won't get to hear your first take on that.

00:00:42:14 - 00:00:44:19

Speaker 3

Oh, where? Where?

00:00:44:19 - 00:01:09:00

Clark

Or maybe, who knows? Maybe I'll edit it in When you when you were a little rusty and you were trying to find your words and you were like, me is Colin. And then I thought, well, how appropriate. I mean, you know, like, what are you really Cullen McFater? Are you being Colin today? Is someone controlling you? Has someone entered a portal in some office building somewhere on the seventh and a half and.

00:01:09:00 - 00:01:11:12

Cullen

Just like, you know, someone's there trying to speak through me now.

00:01:12:10 - 00:01:14:11

Speaker 3

I didn't see that. Yeah. Excellent.

00:01:14:11 - 00:01:39:13

Clark

I can't wait. I can't wait. Then this is going to be exciting, but yeah, yeah. So as a first of all, episode 60 who that's like, amazing. And I'm always surprised at how many of these we've done. I've just like blows my mind at. It's still fun. But yeah, I pick Being John Malkovich and as we usually do, let's kind of dive into our personal experiences with the film.

00:01:39:21 - 00:02:00:00

Clark

You said you'd seen it before. Obviously we've both watched it again recently so that we can discuss it now. But I'm kind of curious to hear a little bit about when you first saw it and kind of what that experience was like and then what it was like now to to watch the film anew. And what kind of just your like initial broad stroke impressions were of the film?

00:02:00:07 - 00:02:17:19

Cullen

Mm hmm. Yeah. So I first I think I first saw it when I was 18 or 19. So yeah, five or so years ago. And I remember, you know, I watched it with a friend who really, really liked it. And so I think that always kind of.

00:02:18:10 - 00:02:19:05

Clark

That helps bring.

00:02:19:05 - 00:02:33:22

Cullen

You into something, right? Yeah. And it was I think it was me, him and my girlfriend at the time and then somebody else. It was like a group of us. And I think he was the only one that actually seen it. I had heard of it for ages.

00:02:34:05 - 00:02:36:05

Clark

And you watched on like DVD.

00:02:36:05 - 00:02:36:19

Speaker 3

Or.

00:02:38:00 - 00:02:47:23

Cullen

Probably a DVD or a Blu ray or something. Okay. And I remember, yeah, we were all none of us had seen it except for the one friend. But I was familiar with it. Like I knew.

00:02:48:08 - 00:02:49:07

Clark

A lot of it. You knew.

00:02:49:07 - 00:02:59:16

Cullen

About it? Yeah. Spike Jones. I knew Charlie Kaufman. I'd seen other Charlie Kaufman movies, actually. Yeah, and other Spike Jones movie. So I wasn't unfamiliar with with the movie at all. I just had never gotten around to seeing it.

00:03:00:05 - 00:03:00:13

Clark

Right.

00:03:01:04 - 00:03:26:16

Cullen

And I think I think I remember, you know, it it's both, you know, tonally predictable if you'd seen their other work. But also the same time there's, there's a certain aspect of their work that makes it kind of impossible to predict. Like you kind of you can guess if you're you know, if you're hearing that that Charlie Kaufman and Spike Jones are making a movie together, it's like, okay, I can probably understand what the tone is going to be like scene to scene right now.

00:03:26:16 - 00:03:27:01

Clark

Of course.

00:03:27:19 - 00:03:42:18

Cullen

Because of that, because of their way of making movies, there's also no way to predict what those scenes will actually consist of. Like there's some really genuinely funny bits in this movie that are just so nonsensical, like the speech impediment thing.

00:03:42:18 - 00:03:43:18

Speaker 3

Which is, I love that.

00:03:43:19 - 00:03:53:10

Cullen

Idea and just how far off you plays that the the receptionist or whatever he calls her that like his like, yeah, exceptional. You know, organizer of something or.

00:03:53:13 - 00:03:54:13

Speaker 3

Yeah yeah yeah.

00:03:54:20 - 00:03:55:23

Clark

Kirsten being is.

00:03:56:01 - 00:03:58:03

Cullen

Such that is Yeah. Oh man he's great.

00:03:58:03 - 00:04:15:20

Clark

Yeah, he's great in this film. It's one of my favorite performances. So it well, it's interesting, you know, as you describe this, I want to like delve into it a little bit more. But yeah, because you kind of have had an opposite first experience than me because when I first saw this film, it was I actually saw it in the theater on release.

00:04:15:20 - 00:04:40:06

Clark

And so this is Spike. You know, obviously Spike had done skateboard videos. He had done music videos. You now, I hadn't seen any of his skateboard work, but I had seen his music videos and actually, like, you know, he was a name like he was a known entity in the music video world, unlike most music videos, because he had done, you know, pretty significant work with like the Beastie Boys, who I was a big fan of.

00:04:40:06 - 00:04:56:07

Clark

So I was kind of aware of him and he was maybe one of the more prominent music video directors, and he was also like, he was kind of he was young and he was like, hipper. And, you know, he was kind of like traveled around in the skateboard world. And so these.

00:04:56:07 - 00:05:01:01

Cullen

Choices visually to like, yeah, I think videos you can see these like really, really.

00:05:01:09 - 00:05:27:15

Clark

Cool. Yeah, artistic choices totally and kind of rebellious in the way that he directed and what he did. And so I guess yeah, which I really wasn't familiar with at the time or, and I might have even actually kind of been, you know, that's, that's stupid. I'm not interested in that. But we could talk about that later. But I, but yeah, it was from his music videos and then I didn't have any idea who Charlie Kaufman was at this time.

00:05:27:18 - 00:05:50:22

Clark

This is also his first film. So for me, going into the film, I mean, I remember watching the advertisements, right? I remember seeing like trailers and promos for it and I was like, Whoa, this like, seems so unique. Like this. This seems unlike any film I had seen before. Its premise, right? That the overall premise and kind of I was just like, what?

00:05:51:02 - 00:06:09:21

Clark

You know? And it was just like, okay, wait a minute. Cusack Who's somebody I knew, you know, from way back when he was a a teen actor, right? I'd known him as an actor my whole life. And I'm like, wait, he's like this like kind of, you know, this this puppeteer, this kind of like, down and out puppeteer.

00:06:09:21 - 00:06:22:19

Clark

Annie, Wait. He's working on, like, some weird seven and a half floor that's like a four and a half foot tall, like, you know, I mean, I'm like, wait a minute. They're going inside a John Malkovich. What? Like, I was mind blown, you know?

00:06:22:19 - 00:06:24:15

Cullen

Yeah, this kind of meta aspect. Yeah.

00:06:24:15 - 00:06:41:11

Clark

So. So you kind of saw it backwards in the sense that you went into it. You're like, okay, I know what to expect here. Okay? This, like, wackiness is definitely going to assume ensue. It's going to be like this big meta experience. Kaufman's written it, but how did you so so do you remember what you.

00:06:41:11 - 00:06:43:12

Speaker 3

Felt about the film when you first saw it? Yeah, I.

00:06:43:12 - 00:06:51:07

Cullen

Mean, I I'm not I have another friend, not a friend who showed me this, but I've another friend who's really like, No.

00:06:51:07 - 00:06:52:17

Clark

Way, you have another. Yeah, I've.

00:06:52:17 - 00:06:53:13

Cullen

Got more than one.

00:06:53:14 - 00:06:56:20

Speaker 3

Okay, you have another friend. All right, cool. I just want to make sure.

00:06:56:22 - 00:06:58:13

Cullen

If we can, to believe it. There's a sense, right?

00:06:59:13 - 00:07:00:07

Speaker 3

I just get it.

00:07:00:12 - 00:07:23:09

Cullen

Yeah, He he he really loves, like, Kaufman's work, and very much when he was in, like, film school with, like, kind of emulate him and write like him and. Yeah, this kind of again, I described it to you earlier as like, you know, they all kind of center on these, like, sex, sex deprived, lonely men kind of thing.

00:07:23:09 - 00:07:26:13

Cullen

And but it's very in looking at the funny that and kind of that.

00:07:26:22 - 00:07:42:07

Clark

He right but when you were when you were a kid, when you were younger and you saw it, like did you like just simply did you like it? Would you interested in it? Did you think it was like kind of what were your how did it strike you in that naive moment of not having seen it before?

00:07:42:07 - 00:07:46:13

Cullen

I'm going I'm giving you the odd word. And I say it was it was surprisingly digestible.

00:07:47:04 - 00:07:47:15

Speaker 3

Okay.

00:07:47:15 - 00:07:53:07

Cullen

I think I expected it to be a little bit more.

00:07:54:11 - 00:07:55:11

Clark

Out there in the.

00:07:55:11 - 00:08:09:02

Cullen

Air and like, you know, in the clouds in a way like it was I thought it was going to be more philosophical and which is I mean, it's undoubtedly there's like a lot of yeah, personal and kind of deep philosophical meaning to a lot of it.

00:08:09:11 - 00:08:13:17

Clark

Some of which potentially. Yeah, we'll discuss that when we get to themes. But it's like I.

00:08:13:17 - 00:08:14:06

Speaker 3

Think that.

00:08:15:03 - 00:08:38:14

Cullen

You see on the basis of I enjoyed it and I think that I it definitely I mean I didn't watch it again for, I think two years after that. Yeah. So I've seen it I think only three times, including this watch and yeah, I think it just it's strange, I think I've almost had a slightly different reaction every time I've watched it, but they've always been like positive.

00:08:38:14 - 00:08:40:00

Cullen

I've never felt.

00:08:40:22 - 00:08:55:20

Clark

So what did you think? So So now you've seen it recently. It's fresh in your mind and you're watching it, you know, with it with a little more of an analytical bent, obviously, because you were discussing it, what were kind of your initial, like big reactions to it this time?

00:08:56:22 - 00:09:06:01

Cullen

I think it's I mean, you you you actually mentioned this, but I had similar feelings about the fact that it's visually very stripped down.

00:09:06:11 - 00:09:08:07

Clark

Yeah. Which I was surprised about.

00:09:08:07 - 00:09:08:23

Cullen

That hit me.

00:09:08:23 - 00:09:09:18

Clark

First like.

00:09:09:18 - 00:09:25:02

Cullen

That. And it's like comparing that to, again, Spike Jones work AS Yeah, like a music video producer. And again, you think of like the skateboard video as a genre and it's very superficial. I lots of handheld and cool like crazy those and things like that.

00:09:25:02 - 00:09:26:01

Clark

More avant garde.

00:09:26:09 - 00:09:38:21

Cullen

It was and this is very you know there's not really like not to I'm not trying to insulted or demean the movie in any way but there's not really much going on visually for like 95% of the movie.

00:09:39:08 - 00:09:58:14

Clark

Yeah, I would agree. And I was really surprised by it. And look, it could very I mean, obviously these are choices that the director made. It's you know, I have to assume these are on purpose, of course. And so you have to think, well, this is meant to to kind of mirror or illustrate emphasize the lives of these characters.

00:09:58:14 - 00:10:04:06

Clark

Right. But it's just this drabness, this beige ness, this flatness permeates.

00:10:04:16 - 00:10:04:22

Speaker 3

So.

00:10:04:22 - 00:10:05:18

Clark

Much of the film.

00:10:05:23 - 00:10:25:19

Cullen

It works for the subject. Like I think that it really it works for Cusack's character. And yeah, it's kind of bizarre. It almost grounds it in a weird way. Like, I feel like you could shoot this in a Wes Anderson style, which would be, you know, you get to the seven and a half floor and it's like.

00:10:26:08 - 00:10:28:09

Clark

So cartoon almost a cartoon is zany.

00:10:28:09 - 00:10:49:05

Cullen

Yeah. And whereas this almost grounds it and kind of puts you again in Cusack's shoes who is while he's not a normal guy in this he's kind of odd he is the most in the movie and so like you know his reaction to the fact that there's low ceilings and that these people are like, I have a speech impediment, I'm sure you're very.

00:10:49:06 - 00:10:49:21

Speaker 3

Important to me.

00:10:50:11 - 00:11:05:03

Cullen

And it's like, you know, he's always just sitting there, which I think is a great, great on his part. I think he does a really good job with the role. Yeah. But also really that again, pairing that with the visuals that kind of ground it.

00:11:05:05 - 00:11:07:04

Clark

So that's interesting recognizable.

00:11:07:04 - 00:11:11:03

Cullen

As like okay, so it's almost out of whack. Yes.

00:11:11:13 - 00:11:37:13

Clark

So it's almost like like that's an interesting interpretation that it's almost okay visually it's it's, it's almost mundane. And I would say that like, yeah, I mean, a lot it's very utilitarian. It's very it's not stylistically shot at all, with the exception of, you know, the chase scene in the end and near the climax to Malkovich's subconscious, where we have some interesting, you know, unique shooting going on there.

00:11:39:12 - 00:12:07:12

Clark

But yeah, I mean, like by and large it's, you know, even when we're inside Malkovich's mind, it's, you know, the way they treat that is just a very simple POV shot, a little bit of sound design, but it's really it's, it's very, very simply done I think, you know maybe one of the more striking scenes is when Malkovich is talking to all these other different versions of himself, if I'm not mistaken, I think he goes like inside his own mind.

00:12:07:16 - 00:12:12:20

Clark

Right. And it's going And he's in a restaurant. Yeah. And he's at a restaurant. And this is.

00:12:12:20 - 00:12:14:19

Cullen

Kind of Queen Mary in California that.

00:12:15:05 - 00:12:25:13

Clark

Ah, that's probably at Long Beach then. And, and he's and it's actually a pretty good CGI effect for that era actually pulled off quite well.

00:12:25:13 - 00:12:33:00

Cullen

Big combo It was a lot of it. Some it was CG and some of it was just the mask wearing mask. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was an ingenious way of doing it.

00:12:33:00 - 00:12:56:09

Clark

Yeah. And they pull that off very well. And I think that was really interestingly stylistically done. But yeah, I mean, and maybe you're right, I was just going to say got, maybe you're right. I mean, it's an interesting interpretation that, you know, it, it keeps the film so grounded and it makes the film seem so matter of fact visually, when when the story is so outrageous.

00:12:56:09 - 00:13:19:16

Clark

And I think that's kind of one of my biggest takeaways was just how I felt like the writing, I don't want to say overwhelms, but I but, but it almost feels like like television in the sense that the writer is the primary, major creative force behind a project and usually, of course, the director is the major, you know, primary creative force in a film.

00:13:19:21 - 00:13:34:22

Clark

And it almost feels like here we have Kaufman's voice that the writing and his his premise so over. I don't want to say overwhelming because that's overwhelming has a negative connotation, but it kind of influences it so substantially.

00:13:34:22 - 00:13:36:09

Speaker 3

Well, I think it's just that the.

00:13:36:21 - 00:13:58:11

Clark

Kaufman's voice is so substantial in his script that it just kind of, you know, I don't get a sense as much of who Spike Jones is as a director, You know, that the things that he the personality he shows in his video work before this and even work that he's done since. Now I know this is Jones first film, his first feature.

00:13:58:16 - 00:14:15:02

Clark

And, you know, it's almost like I would have expected something similar to, let's say, maybe like a PTA where his first couple films, you know, he's really working hard to prove himself. And you've got long, you know, Long Warners and, you know, a lot of like dynamic camera movement.

00:14:15:02 - 00:14:16:16

Cullen

And it was wild darling, you know?

00:14:16:16 - 00:14:17:11

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah.

00:14:17:11 - 00:14:38:07

Clark

All this kind of, you know, very, like, lyrical camera and a lot of movement going and everything in it. And you almost feel like, right, Like Jones would have come from, you know, I was, I was surprised that he didn't come to that here. Now, I'm not suggesting he should have and maybe it speaks to a confidence that he had to just you know, that the script is there, It's solid.

00:14:38:09 - 00:14:49:20

Clark

I'm telling the story and I don't need all that fancy stuff because that's kind of where PTA came later, right? When PTA matured as a filmmaker, he's very subdued.

00:14:49:20 - 00:14:50:19

Speaker 3

Yeah, I don't.

00:14:50:19 - 00:14:53:11

Clark

Need to do all these wacky things to prove myself.

00:14:53:11 - 00:15:05:16

Cullen

Which I actually just briefly on PTA, I, I prefer his more recent work because of that that like the kind of minimalist, very confident in. Yeah. Like simple setups I think.

00:15:05:16 - 00:15:11:03

Clark

Yeah and so I'm not knocking Jones at all you know for his work here I was just surprised.

00:15:11:13 - 00:15:37:09

Cullen

It it goes really I think another thing about it is that the again John Jones direction works with the subject matter like if you think about it like there's not really any like magic in of course there's a portal to John Malkovich his mind but it's played so straight and yeah even questions that Yeah and you know you could have a version of the script where they land on the top of the Empire State Building when they when they come out of his mind or something.

00:15:37:09 - 00:15:39:00

Cullen

But no, it's the New Jersey Turnpike.

00:15:39:13 - 00:15:40:07

Speaker 3

Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:40:09 - 00:15:59:13

Cullen

So I think that everything is you take and I think it's actually quite ingenious in the way it's written because you take this really, really fanciful, crazy, like insane idea and this really bizarre premise and but you make everything, like you said, mundane. Yeah. You're throwing the New Jersey Turnpike. It's behind a filing cabinet.

00:15:59:18 - 00:16:00:22

Speaker 3

And it's like, you know.

00:16:00:22 - 00:16:04:19

Cullen

All these things that are like, he's a puppeteer, you know, It's like.

00:16:04:19 - 00:16:05:07

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:16:05:08 - 00:16:15:12

Cullen

You got all these things that that just everything else is so, so, so stripped down and mundane that, that the you almost are like, okay, yeah, this thing has to be real bugs or.

00:16:15:12 - 00:16:34:02

Clark

Like, you know that they have monkey like a monkey lives in the house and you know, it's like and a monkey is going through therapy, you know, or I mean it just the fact that this it's a seventh and a half. Lord And it's like half the, you know, half the the, the, the you know, the ceiling is like half as low as a regular ceiling.

00:16:34:09 - 00:16:56:11

Clark

Nobody knows it. And all of these little like, surreal. I mean, I would say they're like surreal twists. You know, I think Kaufman is obviously shown that that's, you know, I've not seen every single one of his films, but I've seen many. And I feel like, you know, he has a surreal touch to everything he does. You know, there's a surreal flavor, which I enjoy.

00:16:56:11 - 00:17:15:14

Clark

I mean, I it because it's it's especially in today's day and age with films, you know, it's I think we've said this about other films. I'd be surprised if this film could get made and distributed worldwide. You know, I mean, you know, majors, you know, major theatrical release. Yeah. A film like this in today's day and age, sadly, you know.

00:17:16:21 - 00:17:24:18

Cullen

Well, apparently New Line was originally going to like that. It was pitched to New Line. And then Rob Chase said, Why the fuck can't it be being Tom Cruise?

00:17:25:13 - 00:17:56:14

Clark

I Right, right. Why can't it be Tom Cruise? Yeah, I, I could see that, you know, and it's my understanding that I might have misheard this or misunderstood it, but it was my understanding that Kaufman wrote it specifically with Malkovich in it, and that they really stuck to their guns, that they felt it was vital for this, for Malkovich to be the actor, the celebrity that they were going into the mind of, and that it wouldn't just work if you switched it out to another to another person.

00:17:56:14 - 00:18:17:08

Clark

And I do have to say, I mean, I think that it's it's perfect. I'm like, now, obviously I'm looking backwards at a film that's art. But but it's like it would have been a different film had anybody else been used. And I think Malkovich has just this perfect. I don't know. You know what I mean? He's like, like he has this perfect level, especially back then of like.

00:18:18:07 - 00:18:20:15

Cullen

Just think John Malkovich.

00:18:20:15 - 00:18:22:19

Speaker 3

Like art. Yeah. I don't even know, like, how do you.

00:18:22:19 - 00:18:44:20

Clark

Define I know it's like, it's like John Malkovich is just John Malkovich, you know, It's like and I don't even know I actually need to look this up because I doubt it had come out. Had it come out yet. His what was that movie where he played that Russian card shark gambler guy poker dude. Do you remember What was that?

00:18:45:10 - 00:18:46:09

Cullen

What is that called?

00:18:46:14 - 00:18:51:08

Clark

It's called rounders. Okay. Yes, yes, yes. So rounders came out a year before this film.

00:18:51:15 - 00:18:52:02

Speaker 3

Now.

00:18:52:09 - 00:19:04:06

Clark

This is this is where it's like. So you've got Malkovich, right? I just want to go off on a tangent here for a little bit. You've got like he's in Dangerous Liaisons, right? He's in you know, what other films was he in the.

00:19:04:06 - 00:19:05:07

Cullen

Line of Fire.

00:19:05:08 - 00:19:14:05

Clark

Like? He's this real actor, right? Like he's an actor. Actor. And and then he's in, like, Con Air.

00:19:16:01 - 00:19:18:20

Speaker 3

Which a great Nicolas Cage, and then he's in Rounders.

00:19:18:20 - 00:19:22:01

Clark

And. And do you remember rounders? Have you seen it?

00:19:22:13 - 00:19:23:18

Cullen

I've not seen. I know it, though.

00:19:23:23 - 00:19:51:10

Clark

Okay. Okay. So he plays this character named Kitty. Sorry, Teddy KGB. So he's Russian, okay? He's supposed to be this Russian like, card shark gambler guy, right. Okay. Poker master. Okay. And he's kind of set up as the, for lack of a better term, like the villain, right? He's and he has this Russian accent after the show. You need to go look it up.

00:19:51:18 - 00:20:15:04

Clark

But it is one of the most ridiculously like I mean I mean, I think it's great. I think it's wonderful, but it's hysterical. I mean, it's so over-the-top. It's so ridiculous. So to me, like him coming off that and being in this film is just perfect. It's just perfect because it's not like he's because he's clearly a great actor, but.

00:20:15:04 - 00:20:18:19

Speaker 3

He's also in his own way, kind of goofy.

00:20:18:19 - 00:20:26:01

Clark

And kind of, you know what I mean? Like his roles have been kind of colorful. And anyway, I'm sorry to go off on a tangent here, but I.

00:20:26:01 - 00:20:30:15

Speaker 3

Thought I thought it was hysterical that it was John Malkovich.

00:20:30:15 - 00:20:36:09

Cullen

Only the first like drafts had nothing to do with the idea to, I think, going into anyone's mind.

00:20:36:18 - 00:20:37:04

Clark

Right.

00:20:37:09 - 00:20:41:19

Cullen

And that it was just supposed to be written about a guy who falls in love with someone other than his wife. And then.

00:20:42:07 - 00:20:43:00

Clark

Oh, interesting.

00:20:43:00 - 00:21:02:06

Cullen

That like in the first few scripts there was like a the floor seven and a half came in and things like that. And then it was passed a bunch like Pat, you know, just gets turned down and then Kaufman sent it to Coppola, who then passed it on to Spike Jones because he was with he was dating Sofia Coppola at the time, Right?

00:21:02:06 - 00:21:02:13

Clark

Right.

00:21:02:13 - 00:21:05:17

Cullen

Yep. And that was 1994, I think. So It was.

00:21:05:21 - 00:21:06:10

Clark

So they'd been.

00:21:06:10 - 00:21:17:11

Cullen

While. Yeah, because then they eventually got married and then divorced but and all fun fact is that it on it started shooting on my birthday so there you go. Oh, my very first birthday. So.

00:21:17:20 - 00:21:19:03

Clark

Well, there you go, baby.

00:21:19:03 - 00:21:20:03

Cullen

Your very first.

00:21:20:08 - 00:21:21:05

Speaker 3

Birthday.

00:21:21:18 - 00:21:25:09

Cullen

Right? You say in the movie, you know, when the person's born, you go and that's maybe that's when.

00:21:25:09 - 00:21:28:23

Clark

You get absorbed. You get absorbed. So maybe you had to buy.

00:21:29:00 - 00:21:29:22

Cullen

Spike Jones or something.

00:21:29:22 - 00:21:53:19

Clark

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, so. So okay, So obviously John Malkovich, he's his name in the title, but we've got some other interesting performances here. I mean, John Cusack, who again, I had kind of hinted that, you know, he'd been around for me since I was a kid, and I kind of grew up watching, you know, so many of his roles, you know, like, say, anything, the Cameron Crowe flick.

00:21:54:02 - 00:22:18:03

Clark

I thought he was actually fantastic. Not actually. I mean, it's no actually to it he was flat out fantastic in in The Grifters, which was a 1990 film. I mean, he'd just been around, right? He's been in a million films. I can't even, you know, Better Off Dead, which was a flick from my childhood, had one Crazy Summer, which is another flick from my childhood that I loved.

00:22:18:23 - 00:22:40:21

Clark

I don't know. Not many people have seen this, but Tape Heads was a film that I liked when I was a kid. So he'd just been around, you know, and done so many films. And so by the time he had come to this, you know, I was it was a fun thing for me to see him in in such an interesting role.

00:22:40:21 - 00:23:05:01

Clark

But I think he I think his performance is pretty interesting in the film. And. Yeah, and and you're right. I mean, it's very grounded. He plays it very straight there. There's all these surrealistic touches, but, you know, he plays it maybe. Well, I mean, everybody plays it pretty straight, I think, except for Orson Bean. But but yeah, I feel like his performance is quite good in the film.

00:23:05:09 - 00:23:06:08

Clark

What were your thoughts?

00:23:07:20 - 00:23:37:19

Cullen

Yeah, I mean, I like Cusack. I again he it's almost like the perfect, like inoffensive casting for the movie anyway, right? Like that. You know, he's not, um, like he's, it's kind of perfectly in sync with John Cusack or John Malkovich because you're kind of like, Oh yeah, Okay. John Cusack Yeah, like, it's not like he could get like a DiCaprio or like Tom Hanks or someone who's, you know, known here.

00:23:38:09 - 00:23:48:03

Clark

This would be interesting, though. I'd like to imagine like Leonardo DiCaprio in this film. I feel like if if Leo were in this film, there'd be a lot more crying.

00:23:48:14 - 00:23:49:17

Cullen

Yes. And screaming.

00:23:49:17 - 00:23:50:19

Clark

Yeah. And screaming.

00:23:50:19 - 00:23:55:04

Cullen

Crying and screaming. His wife in the cage would be very mad.

00:23:56:02 - 00:23:57:20

Speaker 3

Don't get me wrong. But that's what I mean. I love.

00:23:57:20 - 00:23:58:23

Clark

Leo. Yeah.

00:23:59:10 - 00:24:11:13

Cullen

That's why I kind of think that that Cusack is perfect for this. Because it's like, even when he's seems angry and is like, yelling and things like, you still almost get this idea that he's going to say sorry after every single line.

00:24:11:13 - 00:24:12:22

Clark

And, well, he's like, Yeah.

00:24:12:22 - 00:24:13:16

Cullen

Bruce character.

00:24:13:22 - 00:24:40:19

Clark

Yeah. No, I think it really does that. I mean, he kind of almost it's like, sure, he's finally in a beige, you know, cubicle farm office building because that's like, I feel like that's exactly where he'd be, you know? And I think those are a lot of the roles that he played in those movies that I had mentioned where he, you know, even though these are kind of teen comedies, fun films, he was always kind of like, I don't want to say like the Straight man, but, you know, to some extent, yeah.

00:24:41:03 - 00:25:17:19

Clark

Or he was kind of this like slightly outsider's slightly kind of disaffected, slightly, you know. And I think it's really unique in that it's like he's like a leading man, but he's like not a leading man, you know? And and I think it just works perfectly for this film. I think what they do with Cameron Diaz is really interesting, too, you know, because we we see her here and like in in like everything else that we've almost discussed in the film, except for the script, it's like, so underplayed, like they they make her so plain, like so purposely clearly playing you know she had been mask.

00:25:17:22 - 00:25:18:04

Cullen

Yeah.

00:25:18:15 - 00:25:41:07

Clark

Yeah kind of against type right that's like they hire an actress who is known for her beauty and and you know she was in the mask and she was in Oh boy now I'm like blanking what else. She'd been in a couple of films but I think the mask and then there's something about Mary where they were two big films right before this.

00:25:41:12 - 00:26:08:22

Clark

Yeah. And so and so clearly she had like established her comedy chops with or something about Mary. Well, and the mask, too, frankly. But yeah here she, she's like, got this crazy like wig on and she's like really just under made up whereas like sweat pants and stuff, you know, and her best friend is a little monkey. But yeah, that I feel like that was an interesting choice to see.

00:26:08:22 - 00:26:14:20

Clark

And I think at the time especially, people were surprised by that. You know, it's like, Well, why in the world did you hire Cameron Diaz then, if you were?

00:26:14:20 - 00:26:16:00

Speaker 3

Yeah. Yes. And you know.

00:26:16:08 - 00:26:37:03

Cullen

What? You almost didn't even know it's her. Like, it's it's yeah, very interesting. She's and she does a good job like she does genuinely a very good job at some, um, you know, again not she doesn't, she, she clearly intentionally does not play the type and put a lot of work into not being. Cameron Diaz. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26:37:04 - 00:26:47:17

Cullen

Obviously that's acting but, but in a way that I think it's very felt like it almost takes you a second to go like, Oh, that's Cameron Diaz. It's like, Yeah, you realize who it is at first.

00:26:48:02 - 00:27:16:17

Clark

Yeah, for sure. For sure. And I think and Catherine Keener, who you know, I don't know that I had I was too aware of her when the film originally came out. But I think, like to me, her character is one of the more interesting. Mm hmm. And, you know, and it it's it's weird because I feel like her character kind of actually has the most arc and not that I think a character has to have in or, you know, I mean, because clearly, you know, Cusack doesn't change, right?

00:27:16:17 - 00:27:18:09

Clark

If we follow him to the film, he doesn't.

00:27:18:16 - 00:27:19:19

Cullen

At the beginning and saying.

00:27:19:20 - 00:27:20:09

Speaker 3

Well, yeah.

00:27:20:16 - 00:27:45:12

Clark

I mean, he he doesn't learn, he doesn't change. And he's literally chosen at the end to to be absorbed inside of this child's brain only to kind of pine away and and look at his wife, have a relationship with somebody else without him. Right. Yeah. He's literally chosen that instead of leading his own life. And so I don't feel you know, I don't get a sense that he's really learned or grown or done anything.

00:27:45:12 - 00:28:08:16

Clark

Cameron Diaz I feel like kind of also in a certain sense has kind of stayed the same and not changed very much. But. But Catherine Keener, it's like she starts off the film and she's so icy and cold and kind of or I don't know if icy and cold is the right, but she's just like sort of you don't you don't get a lot of like empathy emanating her warmth coming.

00:28:08:17 - 00:28:15:15

Cullen

From her character, almost only interested in her own like very it's not self-preservation, but she's.

00:28:15:16 - 00:28:16:13

Speaker 3

Selfish.

00:28:16:13 - 00:28:17:13

Clark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:28:17:13 - 00:28:20:22

Cullen

And not in like, a malicious way. She just doesn't know. It's just anything.

00:28:21:00 - 00:28:37:22

Clark

It's just a matter of fact. Right? And she's like, How can we profit off this? I'm going to we're going to, like, sell tickets to John Malkovich's mind. You know, we're going to profit off of it. Or it's like, hey, you know, don't you know, it's just really like, you know, very abruptly kind of like, well, what what can you do for me?

00:28:38:06 - 00:28:59:09

Clark

Or I'm not into, you know, it just kind of and by the end, it's like you see her in this really seemingly, like, loving, warm relationship with Cameron Diaz's character. They have a child, you know? I mean, she she so I don't and I was surprised by that. I forgotten about that, actually, until I had watched it now.

00:28:59:21 - 00:29:01:07

Speaker 3

But, you know, you just.

00:29:01:09 - 00:29:10:08

Clark

I was just kind of surprised. I but I think, like but her performance, I think is fantastic. So like a cross and we already talked about Orson Bean, who is like, hysterical, I think.

00:29:10:22 - 00:29:12:03

Cullen

Oh God he's great. Yeah.

00:29:13:11 - 00:29:14:03

Speaker 3

I mean, his.

00:29:14:03 - 00:29:27:01

Clark

Performance is almost it feels like it's almost kind of like tongue in cheek, like, it's like, you know, everybody else is playing this so straight. But he's he comes on and especially when we first meet him in the office for the interview, he's so tongue in cheek and it's.

00:29:27:01 - 00:29:28:04

Speaker 3

Kind of like, hey, hey.

00:29:28:05 - 00:29:29:03

Cullen

Python sketch or.

00:29:29:03 - 00:29:32:07

Speaker 3

Something. Yeah, yeah. It's like wink, wink, nudge nudge, you know.

00:29:32:13 - 00:29:38:10

Cullen

Or when they're, when they're trying to, like, say, Oh, we'll kill your wife. And then he hangs up and and he's like, Oh, he called our bluff.

00:29:40:01 - 00:29:51:06

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's almost like he's in a different movie than the other actors, but it works, you know? It still works. I just love it. So, you know.

00:29:51:18 - 00:30:12:16

Clark

It's but again, I just, you know, so what I now I watched the film and I enjoyed it, but I'm kind of like scratching my head a little bit at the end. I have to say, in the sense that now this is not a bad thing. I think this is a good thing in the sense that I'm kind of like, okay, what in the world did all this mean?

00:30:12:23 - 00:30:38:13

Clark

Not that I have to have a film, you know, be about anything explicitly at all. I don't, but I am. I'm always kind of like, curious. Like I wonder, well, what's the director saying? What is the writer saying? Kind of, you know, how do I feel about this? And this was a film that I'm kind of like, I really at least yet, maybe I'll get there, you know, in it as we discuss it here.

00:30:38:21 - 00:31:00:11

Clark

But I don't have this, like, great articulation, like this really articulate explanation of of what I kind of think or feel about what the movie might be trying to say, what I thoughts on that, because it touches on so many things. It touches on celebrity, it touches on, you know, identity, like, you know, Yeah.

00:31:00:11 - 00:31:06:02

Cullen

I mean, this idea of like, well, Cusack says in the movie, like this idea of being in someone else's skin. And it's like.

00:31:06:02 - 00:31:06:10

Clark

He's the.

00:31:06:14 - 00:31:19:10

Cullen

Guy who can never say the right thing, right like that. It literally to a point that every single thing that he says, I want to say for the first like 70% of the movie result in something.

00:31:19:18 - 00:31:20:20

Clark

Negative consequences.

00:31:21:02 - 00:31:22:02

Cullen

Literally every line.

00:31:22:09 - 00:31:27:18

Clark

Like everybody responds to him except now interestingly that you say except for Orson Bean.

00:31:28:04 - 00:31:35:11

Cullen

Yeah, but even who's thinking like when you think about how whenever he's awesome, he's like, comes up to him and is like, Oh, don't you talk to him. You know her that way.

00:31:35:11 - 00:31:36:05

Speaker 3

And if I.

00:31:36:05 - 00:31:38:16

Cullen

Was 20 years younger, I'd, I'd, I'd, yeah.

00:31:38:23 - 00:31:39:11

Clark

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:31:39:12 - 00:31:56:08

Cullen

So there's this like so but, but exactly that there's an awesome being is very much I want to say also the only only actor in the movie that's like purposefully playing comedy to like is Yeah playing for for comedic kind of Yeah. Yeah. But yeah And then.

00:31:56:14 - 00:32:02:16

Clark

Mary Kate plays Mary Kay Place is clean. Yeah, yeah. They're kind of a duo together but.

00:32:03:06 - 00:32:26:00

Cullen

Yeah, a little bit of a yeah. Um, and then, but then, and then suddenly you've got this character that's. Yeah. Again, that never says anything, right. That is completely, you know, and then he, he is transported into the mind of for 15 minutes of the um, like a good actor. A great actor, you know, I like John Malkovich a lot.

00:32:26:00 - 00:32:32:02

Cullen

Yeah, but like also just kind of like the most, like, banal choice of, like.

00:32:32:13 - 00:32:33:10

Speaker 3

Now here's, here's.

00:32:33:10 - 00:32:53:13

Clark

What I would have done. Here's what I would have done, here's what I would have done. Okay? I've just I'm a riff on an idea for just a second. Okay? We'll have it. Like, maybe we can have a news segment in our podcast where it's like, How would I have done this differently? Yeah, okay. Not that I'm like second guessing Spike Jones and Charlie Kaufman, but just, just let's play a thought experiment.

00:32:53:23 - 00:33:13:15

Clark

So how cool would a this been if we you know, we have we have this guy, we have Cusack. He's a puppeteer, which is it's it's 100% it's a it's a type of acting. It's a performance art. Okay. So very close, honestly, to what Malkovich does. And I think, you know, we explore this in the film a little bit, right?

00:33:13:23 - 00:33:46:09

Clark

It's kind of meta. And these are actors in a performance already talking about performance and acting. But when he goes into Malkovich for the for the first time, he he pops in during a Take of Malkovich on set for the film Rounders, where he's playing Teddy KGB. And we can hear that literal like lines from the movie, like where he's in a scene that we recognize from the movie having just come out.

00:33:47:07 - 00:34:04:01

Clark

And so Cusack gets to like, spend, you know, 15 minutes on set of this major motion picture with Matt Damon sitting right across from him. And they're at the card table and they're playing poker and they're shooting a scene. That's how I would have done it different.

00:34:04:01 - 00:34:17:13

Cullen

Yeah. And then there's another layer of of like meta, you know, he's you know, Malkovich is playing someone else in I mean, that that should be that should be I think we should add that segment to.

00:34:17:17 - 00:34:17:21

Clark

You.

00:34:17:21 - 00:34:19:06

Speaker 3

Like that. Yeah it's like.

00:34:19:11 - 00:34:48:20

Clark

It's like how can we play armchair director you know at Ed's second guess people's film making, which is not actually my intention at all. I just had I just had this idea. But, but, you know, sometimes it's like because you wonder, it's like, I don't know how. Kaufman writes, you know, and I know just in my own writing, you know, a lot of times, like, some things are are conscientious, like some things are very conscientious where it's like, okay, I like I'm shooting for some kind of like way to express an idea or a theme.

00:34:49:01 - 00:35:13:05

Clark

And so, you know, you're reaching for some kind of symbology. And and a lot of times, though, and I think this is maybe when when the writing's better, all of that stuff is kind of subconscious, you know, And it's not a conscientious, like goal to to create or utilize symbology, but rather and just it's just kind of like flowing forth from me right?

00:35:13:05 - 00:35:35:13

Clark

And so I don't know how Kaufman writes and I don't know if if his symbology or if his stories are very conscientious and they're methodical and he you know, or if he kind of writes from his subconscious more, I don't know. But maybe, you know, an argument for the latter would be that I don't feel like this film in what it's saying is really easy to categorize.

00:35:35:13 - 00:35:40:01

Clark

I think if you had ten people watch it, you'd probably have ten different interpretations.

00:35:40:04 - 00:35:40:11

Cullen

Yeah.

00:35:40:13 - 00:36:01:22

Clark

Of of what the film is about, you know, and I, and I really liked that about this film, you know, I really like this about a film. And I think we've talked before about, you know, especially and the like biopic genre where recently we've just had films that are so overly simplified, you know, the people's lives or the characters in the stories.

00:36:01:22 - 00:36:23:02

Clark

And it and it just and the symbology or the themes are so on the nose and you feel like you're being hit over the head as an audience member, being told what to think about what's on screen. And so at least for me, I, I, I feel like that's not the case even remotely with Hoffman's films and with this film, as well, which I love.

00:36:23:02 - 00:36:24:08

Clark

I wish there was more of that.

00:36:24:18 - 00:37:00:02

Cullen

Yeah. I mean, like you said, kind of just like he throws up ideas without worrying to handhold the audience through like, yeah, his philosophy is, which is refreshing because again, like he said, a lot of times a movie like, like I think of some movies that, you know, have come out recently that are very similar in the sense that they're like kind of this like high concept idea and they've got, you know, this philosophy to them and yet they just are so on the nose in terms of like what?

00:37:00:06 - 00:37:10:22

Cullen

Like, you know, as much as we don't like to, it's manipulative. They're manipulative movies. But the the yeah the movie don't look up that just came out last year.

00:37:10:22 - 00:37:12:10

Clark

Okay yeah I saw that.

00:37:12:10 - 00:37:27:12

Cullen

Which had you know Leo a lot of people really liked but I found it was kind of again in the opposite vein of this movie where it's like again, got this high concept. You've got this idea that like, an asteroid is going to destroy Earth and like how people respond. And yet it was such a.

00:37:27:12 - 00:37:47:21

Clark

Concept, so underutilized. It's another, I think it's another I know you're going in a different direction. You're using it as an example of kind of a prettiness or an on the nose. You know, this. It's also an example since Being John Malkovich. Also, I think you could argue in a sense, I don't know if I'd say it's high concept, but there is a high concept there, right.

00:37:49:04 - 00:37:57:03

Clark

But the film is an exact, I don't know, isn't executed exactly like Hitchcock. Maybe it is. I don't know. I'd have to think about that. But. But yeah, yeah.

00:37:57:06 - 00:38:05:21

Cullen

That, that the subject matter of John Malkovich is high concept, but the way in which it's like the workmanship behind it is not high. Yeah.

00:38:05:21 - 00:38:37:10

Clark

Except, you know, one of the things that I thought about and I just as I just take this through with you, you know, and this, this is like 99 Now, in 99, obviously, like celebrity has been a major, you know, people have lived through the lives to some extent of celebrities for decades and decades and decades. Right. I mean, and certainly in 99, there was there was already a substantial celebrity culture in this country and in Canada, where you're at in other countries.

00:38:38:00 - 00:39:13:15

Clark

And but what's interesting is that 99 is kind of the beginning of the Internet being available to a wider and wider audience or a wider and wider group of users. And, you know because I'm trying to think I think 94 would have been when I first really used the Internet and by 99 I think it was quite prevalent or, you know, much more so and I almost it's interesting where we've gone now with with with virtual realities or virtual, you know, virtual images or avatars of ourself online.

00:39:13:15 - 00:39:40:07

Clark

Right. And that can be something as simple as like you have a username that's that's not you on Twitter or you actually have like an actual avatar in a video game or what is Facebook now? What do they call themselves? Meta. Is that very. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and it's trying to like create this entirely like, you know, synthesized symbolic virtual world where avatars of people interact with.

00:39:40:17 - 00:40:15:15

Clark

And I think it's interesting, you know, it's one of the things that I really thought of here and it's maybe it's kind of a superficial thing, but this idea of like, you know, living through someone else. Right. And obviously Cusack's character does this in this film, you know, and very consciously goes into this person's life, learns to kind of manipulate and control them and then uses this this other person's life to achieve their goals and dreams of, in this case, of being a successful puppeteer and, you know, utilizing the fame that Malkovich already had to do.

00:40:15:15 - 00:40:46:13

Clark

So it's just very interesting to me how the world has kind of moved on 20 years plus after this film and how so many people live through, you know, either either avatars they've created for themself in a virtual existence online or live through the celebrity of other people. And I just think that's that's intriguing. Anyway, it was just one of the things that I thought about.

00:40:47:03 - 00:41:07:17

Cullen

Like, you said, like celebrity doom and fandom these days is such a a different place than it was, you know, even ten years ago, where it's like people have these parasocial relationships with with celebrities that they believe are their friends because then follow them on Twitter.

00:41:07:17 - 00:41:09:15

Clark

They can Twitter. Yeah, they can like, you know, your.

00:41:09:16 - 00:41:16:19

Cullen

Daily life on Instagram. And it's like it almost goes along with the Who and you And, you know, we're getting not off topic but very now this.

00:41:16:19 - 00:41:17:14

Clark

Is right on topic.

00:41:17:14 - 00:41:39:10

Cullen

But yeah this is the idea that you know like talk shows all kind of are dwindling and like CONAN O'Brien just ended his because he was like, you know, I'm going to do something a little bit more contemporary. And because, you know, what was the talk show originally, it was this this, you know, half hour program to get to know a celebrity because you had no other way of doing it.

00:41:39:10 - 00:41:42:10

Clark

Well, and they were always it was promotion. It was an advertiser.

00:41:42:10 - 00:42:06:16

Cullen

It was it was an absent adult. So, yeah, it was like the only place that you could see. Right. A celebrity kind of just like kick back and have a conversation with someone. It wasn't that, you know, it wasn't a direct, you know, necessarily a direct interview about a specific product project like that. Right. And now with social media, where I can go on on Twitter, God forbid.

00:42:06:23 - 00:42:09:02

Speaker 3

Or on Instagram.

00:42:09:02 - 00:42:20:13

Cullen

Or Yeah thing. And I can see again, I can like literally go and look at Kim Kardashian's Instagram story and see what she's been up to today. And I can go.

00:42:20:13 - 00:42:21:18

Clark

And oh, how exciting.

00:42:22:02 - 00:42:27:22

Cullen

I can go see what John Cusack's thoughts on, you know, the most recent election are right from his own mouth, right?

00:42:28:01 - 00:42:29:01

Clark

Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

00:42:29:05 - 00:42:50:20

Cullen

So there's this really interesting, you know, link between this idea that, you know, and it's almost perhaps it's like this where it's like it's funny how overt people are. The guy that's like, that comes in and he's like, Oh, you know, Malkovich was my second choice and goes and is super excited and everyone's like, thrilled when they come out on the the New Jersey Turnpike.

00:42:51:00 - 00:42:55:14

Cullen

Yeah Yeah. And I feel like, you know, again, I was I was one years old when this movie came out, but.

00:42:55:23 - 00:43:01:17

Clark

Which blows my mind, by the way. Totally blows my mind. I was graduated college.

00:43:01:17 - 00:43:20:18

Cullen

Yeah. There you go. There you go. But it's it's funny how and I assume because it was like this when I was growing up even that that kind of overt, you know, with very with exceptions, you know, there was obviously like Beatlemania and there was like people would like pass out at Elvis and Michael Jackson going like that.

00:43:20:18 - 00:43:50:20

Cullen

But in terms of in terms of like this celebrity worship that like, permeates every single day to day life in every aspect was kind of something that was like exaggerated in this movie. Whereas nowadays, like if you were to reshoot this movie, you would almost think that those people that like are so, you know, almost like filled with contempt about themselves, that they just want to go and live in the other the eyes of a celebrity that would almost be too realistic to be like high concept fantasy.

00:43:50:20 - 00:43:52:03

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah.

00:43:52:08 - 00:44:01:09

Cullen

Just like that. Like, yeah. Think about the idea of going into John Malkovich, his head, and seeing what he sees the appeal of. Like we kind of already get to do that every day now.

00:44:01:19 - 00:44:31:17

Clark

Yeah, that's very interesting. You're right. And it's almost like, Yeah, we do. We, there's, it's almost like the uniqueness of that, right, of that experience is, has been reduced because you're right, it's like I can go on Twitter and you know specifically John Cusack is there expressing his personal opinions like every 5 minutes, and you're just like, okay, well, she is I'm practically, you know, like I'm in his mind.

00:44:31:17 - 00:45:02:07

Clark

I mean, obviously you're not. But but yeah, I mean, the idea of that, I think, you know, I there are so many interesting, like tangents or like interesting ideas that are almost kind of dangled in front of us. But then kind of not done a lot with really that I there's a part of me that thinks that there's more potential than there is actual payoff in this film, but I don't know how I feel about that.

00:45:02:08 - 00:45:22:07

Clark

You know, there's part of me that's like, Well, hey, that's okay. It's like it's enough to kind of like to, to, to fill up the film with some density and let you kind of mull it over and think about it and, and, and have and have more to discuss. You don't have to tie everything up in a nice little bow that you introduce into a film, Right?

00:45:22:15 - 00:45:54:03

Clark

And so I guess maybe I'm okay with that. But just one of the things that I'm thinking of kind of for, for specifically that I actually thought on this rewatch because I hadn't seen it in so long, was going to be more of a part of the film was so Lottie, you know, the character that the Cameron Diaz plays when she is first, you know, when Cusack's character, Craig, introduces her to the portal and they're able to go through it, she goes through that and is in Malkovich's mind.

00:45:54:07 - 00:46:01:10

Clark

Her interpretation of that is kind of like an awakening of a trans gender identity, right?

00:46:01:14 - 00:46:01:21

Cullen

Yeah.

00:46:02:04 - 00:46:18:11

Clark

I mean, it's explicitly said, like her character explicitly says that it's like, you know, I am a paraphrase, I can't remember exactly, but it's like, oh, my gosh. You know, I realized when I was in Malkovich that I like, meant to be a man I think is as roughly how that goes. But then we.

00:46:18:11 - 00:46:19:17

Speaker 3

Don't really see.

00:46:19:17 - 00:46:36:00

Clark

Too much more of this. I mean, there is this plot idea about how Catherine Keener is character is, you know, has a sexual relationship with Cameron Diaz when she's inside the body of Malkovich.

00:46:36:00 - 00:46:36:10

Cullen

Yes.

00:46:36:12 - 00:47:05:01

Clark

And that and that's definitely we continue that on to the point where Cameron Diaz is in a relationship with Catherine Keener at the end of the film. But it's just that's just one kind of interesting thing to me, that it's like it seems so poignant. And maybe that's because now this is such a topic in today's world, But and probably 20 plus years ago, I would have had less exposure to transgender.

00:47:05:08 - 00:47:22:08

Clark

You know, identity issues and things. But it just stuck out to me. I was like, whoa. And then we but we don't go anywhere really with that. I don't think by the end of the film, just kind of one example that stood out to me. But there's a lot of little things I think like that in the film, and I.

00:47:22:08 - 00:47:25:20

Cullen

Guess it's like infusing of like identity and all kind of forms and, you.

00:47:25:20 - 00:47:44:12

Clark

Know, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess that's a good way to see is that identity is clearly identity is a huge is a huge part of this. And it's and and it's interesting too. And I don't know that you know the film is clearly not moralizing, which I like. And I don't think Kauffman really ever delves into memorialization.

00:47:44:12 - 00:48:04:22

Clark

He just kind of presents things and and you can kind of decide for yourself. But it is a little bit interesting that, you know, it feels so punitive for Cusack's character for Craig at the end of the film, he's in this prison where he's just reduced to basically pining over a lost relationship and, you know, a person he can't have.

00:48:05:03 - 00:48:39:13

Clark

Yeah, inside the mind, you know, it's basically he's imprisoned inside the mind of another of a child and and it almost feels punitive for his for him trying to find success and expression through the fame and body of another person which is interesting you know so yeah there's a lot of different things going on in this film and and I still have not, you know, I think it would I don't know if I would ever get myself to a point where I would be able to dissect it and articulate it perfectly.

00:48:39:13 - 00:48:43:05

Clark

But I think that's I mean, hey, that's. Kaufman right?

00:48:43:05 - 00:48:55:12

Cullen

No, exactly. Yeah. You you know, you look at his other movies again and you see again very similar themes, and yet it's they're tough to predict and they're tough to.

00:48:55:21 - 00:49:00:00

Clark

And they're in their detail in the execution. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:49:00:00 - 00:49:00:07

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:49:00:07 - 00:49:27:15

Clark

Which is and I, I found out that he wrote a book and I don't know if you've heard of it, I think it's called and that Kaufman wrote a book I think a couple of years ago. Yeah. So I'd be curious to I think I'm going to pick that up and, and check it out. And I've also kind of made a little bit of homework for myself to read his scripts because I'd be curious to see how know I'm always curious to see how scripts are translated by directors into the, you know, the final film that we get to see.

00:49:28:04 - 00:49:54:02

Clark

But I think especially with Kaufman, because again, I just feel like his stamp is so strong in this film that it that it's just it almost feels kind of, again, I don't want to say overwhelming because that feels negative, but it's just so, so significant. But yeah, well, I hey, I guess that's that's where we'll probably wrap up this episode.

00:49:55:04 - 00:50:19:06

Clark

It's kind of one of those where it's like, you don't have this this beautiful, perfect, articulate analysis of, of the themes of the film. But again, that's kind of what I enjoy about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think you as always, Cohen Me as Cohen, me as Cohen as Clark. Maybe I'll edit that it. People have no idea what we're talking about.

00:50:19:07 - 00:50:38:07

Clark

And maybe I'll maybe, maybe I'll edit in like a snippet as, like a postscript or something after our signoff. But yeah, but hey, thanks again, Colin, for hanging out with me and discussing the film. It's as always, it's a blast and everybody out there listening. Thanks for hanging in there with us. I hope that you enjoyed the episode and we will see you next time.

00:50:38:07 - 00:50:38:15

Clark

Take care.

00:50:38:16 - 00:50:39:02

Speaker 3

Everybody.

00:50:39:02 - 00:50:47:13

Cullen

Bye bye.

00:50:50:19 - 00:50:51:06

Cullen

Okay.

00:50:51:20 - 00:50:53:14

Clark

All right, man. Ready when you are?

00:50:53:20 - 00:51:08:03

Cullen

Yep. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast, Episode 60. I am your host. As always with my co-host Colin is me.

00:51:08:03 - 00:51:13:21

Speaker 3

I mean, yeah, I will be in a while.

00:51:14:03 - 00:51:15:10

Clark

Let's just use that. Colin.