Clark
Hello there, everyone, and welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I'm Clark Coffey and with me as always, is Mr. Cullen McFater. Hello, Cullen. How you doing?
00:00:20:16 - 00:00:21:16
Cullen
Good, good. How are you?
00:00:21:17 - 00:00:34:22
Clark
I'm doing excellent, man. I'm excited for episode 31 where we're going to discuss The Silence of the Lambs. I kind of wanted to say Silence of the Lambs. I don't know where I got into calling this movie Silence of the Lambs.
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Cullen
I mean, they do say that that pork is the most similar texture.
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Clark
Oh, you would go there. I was actually going to talk about Anthony Hopkins performance as Dr. Lecter, but clearly you have.
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Cullen
Two different wavelength.
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Clark
Yeah, exactly. Oh, my gosh. No, this.
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Cullen
Is I mean, I'm really excited for this. This is one.
00:00:52:01 - 00:00:52:14
Clark
I have two.
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Cullen
Favorite movies, probably my top five favorite movies of all time.
00:00:56:10 - 00:00:57:02
Clark
Oh, okay.
00:00:57:03 - 00:01:07:11
Cullen
Big fan of Silence of the Lambs. That very much influences a lot of my work. And, you know, from beyond just genre, I think.
00:01:07:12 - 00:01:34:15
Clark
Absolutely. Well, it's I mean, look, it was I had forgotten, you know, what a huge you know, critical darling. This was when it came out in 1991. Obviously, so many aspects of this film have, you know, have kind of seeped into the pop culture and cultural lexicon. Anthony Hopkins performance, Ted Levine's performance, I mean, you know, it puts the lotion on its skin.
00:01:34:15 - 00:01:56:00
Clark
I mean, come on, this, you know, these things get Yeah, I mean, you know, so no doubt a huge film. And I had kind of forgotten, you know, some of that. I go back to 1991 and we could kind of start our discussion of this by by sharing our personal experiences with the film, our personal initial experiences with the film.
00:01:56:00 - 00:02:15:08
Clark
And it's always kind of fun again, because you and I are, you know, a bit apart in age. We're about 20 years apart in age. So we come to these films at different times. And so in 1991, I'll just age myself. Here I was in high school and I don't know, I don't remember seeing the film at the theater, although it's possible I did.
00:02:15:08 - 00:02:47:11
Clark
But I definitely remember seeing this, you know, on video soon thereafter. Right When it came to video, I remember it being a huge film. I remember it being a big deal. It was all over the place. And I remember enjoying the film when I when I saw it, when it was in its first kind of release there, but not being, you know, especially captivated or blown away or mesmerized by it, certainly recognized it was a good film, but I don't think it had the same impact on me as it had on you.
00:02:48:21 - 00:03:03:18
Clark
But, yeah, I mean, it was, you know, I mean, jeez, this thing has grossed 272 million is the fifth highest, you know, fifth, highest box office of that year. I mean, like you had mentioned just a second ago, I mean, my goodness it how many Oscars did this thing win?
00:03:04:01 - 00:03:05:20
Cullen
It won one all big five.
00:03:05:20 - 00:03:09:16
Clark
Yeah. When the big five, I mean, you know, huge, huge deal.
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Cullen
But it was only I think the third or fourth movie to do that was.
00:03:12:07 - 00:03:13:22
Clark
I think the third at that time. Yeah.
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Cullen
And so I mean for me what I what I think is really interesting is that this is actually, you know, before I get to like my personal experience, but I think it's really kind of neat is that this is a huge movie for my generation for some reason, even though, you know, I was born seven years after this came out in 98.
00:03:28:12 - 00:03:55:06
Cullen
And so but like everyone I know, that's my age, film enthusiasts are not really love this movie. Like even the most casual people that like aren't really into movies. They know this movie. They love it. And I don't know why that is, but it really, for some reason, has a huge impact on on my generation. Yeah, but I saw it probably the first time in the early 20 tens when I was probably in like grade nine I think was when I first watched it.
00:03:55:06 - 00:04:14:13
Cullen
I remember being kind of concerned because it was a movie that had heard so much about like my dad used to do that, you know, that movie trying to go to sleep at night. And but I saw I was like, of course, it's one of those things that it's hyped up beyond belief before you get to it. And I loved it.
00:04:14:13 - 00:04:27:16
Cullen
I remember watching it and being kind of concerned that I wasn't going to like it as much and that I was just going to kind of not live up to the hype. But I I've always there's been something that I don't know just really I don't want to say, like speaks to me because of course, the movie Cannibals.
00:04:27:23 - 00:04:31:22
Clark
But but well, I mean, you didn't start off talking about it's.
00:04:32:09 - 00:04:48:08
Cullen
It's one of those movies that that's kind of funny that I'm sure you've had these experiences too, where you watch a movie and you kind of go like, those choices are my choices. You know, if I was directing this, I would make all of the same choices that I mean, obviously, I don't think I'm as a talented of a filmmaker as Jonathan Demme be.
00:04:48:08 - 00:05:05:06
Cullen
But one of those things that I just agree with every every choice that's made, like there's not a moment in this movie that I go like, Oh, that could be done differently. And I think that that's really interesting to me because I, you know, again, whenever I get a movie like that, it is just a lovely feeling to fall in love.
00:05:05:06 - 00:05:27:18
Cullen
Yeah, he'll be like that. But also just the idea like that, this movie, again, as I mentioned briefly earlier, it had like influenced me. So much that, you know, the Herzog movie that the movie that I made for Herzog's Masterclass was really inspired by Silence of the Lambs. In fact, I even stole an audio byte from Lecter saying tick tock, tick tock, tick tock, and used it in my Herzog movie.
00:05:27:20 - 00:05:32:10
Clark
I love it. And the film that you're working on now is. Yeah. And so that's what I'm.
00:05:32:10 - 00:05:51:05
Cullen
Working on right now. And and that's what I mean when I sort of say that it's not like a genre dependent thing where it's like I'm sitting here going, Oh, I'm making a serial killer movie, right? That's not it at all. It's more just the way that I think. I think just the style and way in which Demi handles like the screenplay and the way that he shoots things.
00:05:51:05 - 00:06:05:14
Cullen
And Fujimoto, cinematographer feels to me like, really stunning and really beautiful to the point that I, I can't help but, you know, pull from it. Yeah so in for you know for example that the the big finish that I'm not going to spoil it because of course the movie's not.
00:06:05:17 - 00:06:15:10
Clark
A spoiler. Oh you're film you're talking about. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Got not No I was, I was like I don't think you have to worry about 30 almost three years. Silence of the Lambs. Yeah.
00:06:15:20 - 00:06:17:16
Cullen
But no, it is 30 this year isn't it.
00:06:17:16 - 00:06:21:11
Clark
Yeah, it's. It's fine. Yeah. I feel so old. I feel so old.
00:06:21:23 - 00:06:47:03
Cullen
But which scares me because I'm only seven years younger than this movie, so that means I'm seven years the 30. But yeah, but I, you know, the finale for my the movie that I'm working on right now, I remember having a lot of trouble coming up with exactly what I wanted to do with it. And I had a general idea of, you know, initially the movie that I can sort of say this because the movie now is so different from its original drafts, like it's almost completely unrecognizable.
00:06:48:11 - 00:07:11:13
Cullen
But it was very inspired by Texas Chainsaw Massacre initially in that that was kind of what I was going for for the finale. This like adrenaline fueled, visceral, you know, violent, gory, exciting, very Grindhouse kind of feel. Yeah. And but what I kind of realized and as much as I love Texas Chainsaw like that, I, I never really felt a huge falling for those movies as I grew up.
00:07:11:13 - 00:07:31:03
Cullen
I didn't really, you know, I didn't get as much as I like those movies now. They didn't really inspire me or affect me growing up where something like this really did. And so I kind of decided to take the movie and really transform it into something that was a lot more similar to the finale of This, which is, you know, there's no jump scares in this finale.
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Cullen
It's very like the, you know, her walking around the basement is very slow. It's very methodical. It's very well thought out. You know, there's no scary music going on as it happens. There's no skeletons falling out of closets and things like that. But it's still it's you know, I think a lot of people say that it's one of the most terrifying endings of a movie because it's just so suspenseful.
00:07:52:18 - 00:08:07:19
Clark
It's so I want to work. I want to work up to that. I want to work up to that because, yes, of course, you know, you I will have some you now have some different opinions a little bit on this. And so it's going to be fun. Yes. But of course, I totally appreciate and respect that this film, this is one that has inspired you.
00:08:07:19 - 00:08:28:04
Clark
And sometimes it's like, you know, it was the right film at the right time. We can't explain why. I mean, look, there's been some films that it's like, I can't explain to you why necessarily The Road Warrior, a film that we discussed in the last episode was such a a profoundly important touchstone for me as a kid. You know, I could describe all these aspects of the film itself to you.
00:08:28:04 - 00:08:48:05
Clark
But look, the reality is it's like some films really speak to us and some films not so much. And that's perfectly wonderful, of course. But I mean, let's let's kind of jump in then and discuss some of the aspects of this film. It'll be fun to see kind of where we might, you know, share some some thoughts about it and where we're going to have some different thoughts about it.
00:08:48:05 - 00:09:05:13
Clark
So now let's kind of talk about the writing a little bit, because I think there's a couple of really interesting, significant aspects of this film that do kind of originate in the writing. Yeah, I mean, you know, right off the bat, I think it's obvious we see some things here that are different than a lot of films that were released in that era.
00:09:05:13 - 00:09:15:03
Clark
We have a woman as a main protagonist, and usually in these kind of, I don't know what you what would you even I mean, it's kind of part horror, it's part kind of.
00:09:15:05 - 00:09:16:21
Cullen
Thriller, singular.
00:09:16:22 - 00:09:18:18
Clark
It's kind of procedural almost.
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Cullen
I also I mean, and very much in line with that, too, what you're, you know, kind of like the differences between that. You know, a lot of people don't know that. It's also a sequel to sort of like an unofficial sequel. But it's it's it's a sequel to Manhunter by Michael Mann. And again, I think all those differences that you just mentioned there very much come up.
00:09:36:20 - 00:09:45:13
Cullen
Like if you watch those two movies back to back, Manhunter is much more of a traditional, you know, male cop hunting down a serial killer.
00:09:45:20 - 00:09:46:03
Clark
Um.
00:09:46:12 - 00:09:49:07
Cullen
Very eighties in a lot of ways, right.
00:09:49:17 - 00:10:11:16
Clark
But even in the nineties we don't have a lot of yeah we don't have a lot of women protagonists. Yeah. In these type of films. So that's obviously a big deal and I think and more than just that, it's a protagonist is a woman. I mean we see this a lot throughout the film, that the film is really highlighting the male gaze, it's highlighting her.
00:10:11:16 - 00:10:31:13
Clark
You know, we have a handful of scenes that really illustrate the differences as her as a as a woman being in a man's world. And we see this very visually, symbolically of her getting into the elevator with half a dozen men who are twice as tall as her. Jodie Foster seems to be perhaps a particular person.
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Cullen
Yeah.
00:10:32:15 - 00:10:44:22
Clark
You know, we have that where all the state troopers are in the room surrounding her and kind of, you know, she we see a lot of men kind of get, you know, look her up and down and objectify her or.
00:10:44:22 - 00:10:47:03
Cullen
Just completely lose respect, like have no respect for.
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Clark
Her. You have no respect for her. We have which is in.
00:10:50:00 - 00:10:57:02
Cullen
Stark contrast to something like that came out in the same year as well, Terminator two, which, of course, has a female protagonist.
00:10:57:02 - 00:10:57:08
Clark
Yeah.
00:10:57:19 - 00:11:15:19
Cullen
In a very different way. And Jodie Foster actually commented on this in the past to just this idea that Clarice isn't a female hero. That's that's, you know, taking the male tropes and just applying them to a woman character where she's like big, strong, you know, she's very much embodied in her femininity.
00:11:15:19 - 00:11:18:14
Clark
Not a woman trying to be a man. Yeah, I guess.
00:11:19:01 - 00:11:19:06
Cullen
Yeah.
00:11:19:06 - 00:11:20:21
Clark
Or presented. I mean, it's like.
00:11:20:21 - 00:11:24:18
Cullen
Vulnerable when she's she's real. She feels like a real person. Yeah.
00:11:24:18 - 00:11:37:11
Clark
So it's interesting, different ways to of course it's not that you know like a certainly a woman can be like Linda Hamilton and be physically imposing and, and have all of these characteristics. But yeah, just a different way to represent her was kind.
00:11:37:11 - 00:11:50:14
Cullen
Of the first time that that a movie had done that that that a movie hadn't portrayed a character like Linda Hamilton in T2 which was like that, you know, you think of you know, the James Cameron movie like Ripley in Aliens or something like that, which is still, again, very much going.
00:11:50:15 - 00:11:51:11
Clark
Action oriented.
00:11:51:20 - 00:12:11:03
Cullen
Action hero, kind of like, you know, just a female Schwarzenegger or like something like that. Yeah. Whereas this was one of the first movies in at least I can think of that really embraced that. They had a a female protagonist in a movie that wasn't like a rom com or romance or a drama that it was like a thriller.
00:12:11:03 - 00:12:40:13
Cullen
It was a serial killer police movie. But our main character is is a woman who is vulnerable, who who, you know, has a lot of insecurities and things like that and has trouble really imposing herself on the scene. And especially, you know, I think one of the one of the moments that really highlights that in this film as well is when she when Crawford says to the guys, you know, like, let's have this conversation kind of out of the earshot of the woman.
00:12:41:07 - 00:12:47:20
Cullen
And then she says afterwards to him, you know, you don't you know, these guys pick up on that and they'll they'll continue to.
00:12:47:21 - 00:13:08:13
Clark
You know, see the film. Really close that out. Yeah. The film's not afraid to call these things out and illustrate the unique challenges that a woman might have in this position. Yeah, absolutely. And I was I, I of course, I don't think that was something I noticed nearly as much when I watched this film the first time when I was, jeez, whatever, that was 15 years old or something.
00:13:08:13 - 00:13:16:23
Clark
But certainly I particularly noticed that this time around, you know, so yeah, something else that I found was different in that. Oh, go ahead. Sorry if you've got to go.
00:13:17:10 - 00:13:33:23
Cullen
In, this actually might be sort of similar to what you were going to say, but that I find that what's another thing that's interesting about that idea is that like there's kind of, you know, every villain in this movie or every antagonist in this movie embodies some sort of sexist behavior, which I think is really.
00:13:34:02 - 00:13:54:00
Clark
Well, that's what was that was what I was going to talk about, but at an even higher level that this film has to me, which seems to be multiple antagonists, that's actually something. So even a step back further than where you were even going to start at. So to my mind, you know, and I think it's one of the things that makes this film so memorable, memorable, memorable to people.
00:13:54:00 - 00:14:09:15
Clark
And I think it's what one of the things that makes this film as strong a film as it is, right? We hear constantly this idea that, you know, a film is only a story is only as good. A film is only as good as its antagonist. And, you know, protagonist is only as good as a as the antagonist.
00:14:09:15 - 00:14:36:10
Clark
And here we actually have at least a couple and I might make an argument for maybe three or two and a half really good antagonist. And they're very different. They're, they're unique and, and they're in the threats that they present in certain ways. But, you know, you've got, of course, Dr. Lecter portrayed by Anthony Hopkins. And, you know, of course, it's extremely memorable, memorable antagonist.
00:14:36:10 - 00:14:59:01
Clark
And he's really built up in this film to be this just, you know, almost, almost like magically dangerous that he can, you know, that he can get out of the situations that he gets out of. And do you think I mean, he's, you know, the weight and it's we can talk about this the way the film presents him so that we as an audience are feel threatened by him and are aware of his danger are.
00:14:59:03 - 00:15:01:09
Cullen
Sort he's behind six inches of glass.
00:15:01:09 - 00:15:22:22
Clark
Even when he's behind six inches a glass and he's in steel cages and he's got mouth guards on. I mean, he's he's just such a terrifying figure. And then, of course, we have Buffalo Bill, a completely different type of antagonist. Yeah. And and then we've and then I would even argue I would argue that even Dr. Chilton is a little bit of an antagonist.
00:15:23:02 - 00:15:44:05
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a totally different way that he's inside the system. I think he's kind of presented somewhat as a sexual predator, certainly as a misogynist, certainly as an obstacle to Clarice, our protagonist. And, and so, you know, maybe a, you know, half of an antagonist or something. But but definitely interesting.
00:15:44:08 - 00:16:02:13
Cullen
And I do think it's it's, it's neat to kind of compare to again with with Manhunter because it is the same is basically the same cast of characters in the same story except it's Crawford is the main character Manhunter. But Crawford in Manhunter has to go and interview Lecter to find a serial killer. That's what that movie is.
00:16:02:13 - 00:16:21:20
Cullen
So it's very much pretty much an identical plot. It's just that you really, I think, come to appreciate the subtlety. I think of Silence of the Lambs a lot more when you watch Manhunter as well, because of exactly what you're talking about, which is that this idea that it's, you know, a villain doesn't have to be the killer.
00:16:22:02 - 00:16:42:21
Cullen
You can have an antagonist in it that is technically on the side of our hero. And I would even go as far to say to that, that there's elements of Crawford that sort of make him in certain moments, you know, antagonistic to Clarice. You know, every male character in this movie in a lot of ways is sort of portray played with an unease.
00:16:43:12 - 00:17:00:18
Cullen
And even the guy that brings her to the storage lot and like helps her open the garage. You kind of feel like uneasy about him or the guys that she goes to to talk about the moths with. Like they're, they're kind of goofy and stuff, but they still like the first thing they do is hit on her. That's true.
00:17:00:23 - 00:17:27:00
Cullen
So I think it's really interesting in this movie that you get this perfect comparison to a previous movie done by a different director, same book series based off of very similar plots. But you really get to see kind of how the movie is elevated by introducing this element of not only is this character hunting a serial killer and having to talk to this, you know, psychoanalytical, mind warping serial killer like Lecter.
00:17:27:12 - 00:17:30:00
Cullen
But on top of that, she's a woman in a man's world.
00:17:30:00 - 00:17:31:09
Clark
And yeah, she's.
00:17:31:09 - 00:17:41:13
Cullen
Got to deal with with this this slew of in this onslaught of whether it's just underestimation or whether it's active harassment or.
00:17:41:14 - 00:17:42:18
Clark
Objectification to.
00:17:42:18 - 00:17:43:06
Cullen
Be murdered.
00:17:43:15 - 00:17:44:00
Clark
Yeah.
00:17:44:05 - 00:17:47:18
Cullen
You know, you get all these different elements that very much that play into that.
00:17:47:18 - 00:18:15:16
Clark
So what do you think? Let's talk about Buffalo Bill and Dr. Lecter a little bit. I mean, these are two characters and two performances that have, well, outlived the film. I mean, these are these are both of these performances and characters entered into kind of the public domain, the pop culture, if you will. And I mean, just about everybody knows it can at least like recite a line, you know, the fava beans or, you know, the puts the lotion in the basket or I mean, yeah.
00:18:15:23 - 00:18:38:16
Clark
And and there are some interesting things. I think the kind of to analyze take about and discuss about these two characters is I mean they're really what makes the film. I mean, I feel like Jodie Foster, like many films like this is a little bit of a blank canvas. Now, it's interesting that we do have an arc for her and and I think much more so than a lot of films like this.
00:18:38:16 - 00:18:52:02
Clark
You know, she she does have an arc. And because of her relationship and interactions with Lecter, we do learn about her backstory, which which I think is unique to this film a lot of times the hero doesn't have as much of that in a film like this.
00:18:52:08 - 00:18:54:23
Cullen
Yeah, they kind of try to make them sort of more projection of.
00:18:55:01 - 00:19:07:01
Clark
Projection of the audience, and it's much more about the antagonist and they're kind of right. But but so I think that's that's one of the other aspects that makes this film elevates it beyond a lot and it makes it.
00:19:07:01 - 00:19:20:18
Cullen
What's really interesting about the handling of it, too, is that it's not you know, when you say elements of like learning about Clarissa's backstory and stuff, we learn what's important to her, but we never find out if she's in a relationship. We never find out if like things like that that are totally, you know what, Like.
00:19:20:18 - 00:19:23:18
Clark
Personal life is not her personal life, as I could tell you. Not a part.
00:19:23:18 - 00:19:39:02
Cullen
Of that being thrown into a movie if it was, you know, perhaps a less talented director who's like, oh, she's got to have a boyfriend to go home to and, like, vent to or something. Right. But but the movie doesn't bother itself with that. It really I think this movie has a very laser focus on like what it's trying to do, what it's trying to say.
00:19:39:05 - 00:20:03:01
Clark
Yeah, I think if I'm not mistaken, I think there were, you know, in the writing process, there were some kind of, you know, hints of of of there being a little bit of a thing with her. Was it Crawford, the FBI boss? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in the I think in the book and maybe in a earlier draft of the script, I think mostly in the book there is kind of, you know, sexual.
00:20:03:01 - 00:20:03:19
Cullen
Tension kind of.
00:20:04:01 - 00:20:30:15
Clark
Or kind of. Yeah, a little bit. But I think in the book CRAWFORD is dealing with the death of his. His wife is dying, I think. And and so he's under a tremendous amount of stress and he sees her something in her that I think he is attracted to. I think there's you know, you could I don't think that's really presented in this film, although you can kind of, you know, make a couple steps of assumption and be, you know, why is he, you know, picked her out of everybody else.
00:20:30:15 - 00:20:49:00
Clark
Yeah. Why is he focusing so much on helping her? Why is you know, I mean, he calls her off the obstacle course, you know, and you've got to come in here, you know, I mean, he really puts takes her under his wing and she is the only woman FBI agent we see in the film. And and what's funny, too, is he reaches out.
00:20:49:00 - 00:21:09:18
Cullen
To the most flirting that she does in this movie is to get by, like even with collector, like there's almost this element of, like, a strange trans fiction of, like, romance between them that kind of grows by the end of the movie where it's like, Hmm, maybe not like a sexual romance, but certainly this, like, odd mutual respect of.
00:21:09:18 - 00:21:26:00
Clark
Well, there's no question that. Lecter Let's let's talk about yeah, let's focus in on that because I think this yeah I want to talk about Lecter as a character And then and then I want to talk about Buffalo Bill, too. But I think, you know, from a story perspective, let's talk about like really I think, you know, obviously he's an extremely interesting antagonist.
00:21:26:00 - 00:21:35:01
Clark
He's an extremely interesting character. And you're right, I think in a strange way, he actually respects Clarice more than any other of these characters. These characters.
00:21:35:01 - 00:21:35:13
Cullen
Exactly.
00:21:36:15 - 00:21:45:14
Clark
And he's interested in her. He listens to her. He he very clearly wants to understand her history, her motivations, and.
00:21:45:14 - 00:21:48:09
Cullen
Wants her to learn on her own, like not give her any answers.
00:21:48:11 - 00:21:59:11
Clark
Absolutely. Yeah. And he clearly is affectionate for her. I mean, we even have an insert of him, you know, grazing her finger as they pass, you know, files between the bars. Yeah.
00:21:59:13 - 00:22:10:12
Cullen
And that's that's really played up in the sequels, too, like the Hannibal movie. Right. And after this, directed by Ridley Scott, which is not good at all. But they did really play up the romance elements between them, like, he's.
00:22:10:12 - 00:22:17:10
Clark
Not going to lie. I felt that was like a tad cheesy. I thought that that was a tad of a cheat. The little the little insert there of.
00:22:17:14 - 00:22:30:03
Cullen
The finger thing. I like that moment. Just because I think that moment to me is like it's so it it's like, oh my God, she's touched like this guy. This behind these, like, plates of glass that. Yeah, it's basically in the seventh.
00:22:30:10 - 00:22:32:11
Clark
Right the line this asylum right.
00:22:32:12 - 00:22:36:02
Cullen
Suddenly suddenly like he touches her and it's like, oh, he didn't kill her, like he didn't.
00:22:36:02 - 00:22:48:05
Clark
Grab her. And there's a couple of moments like that and I'm kind of on the fence. I'm kind of on the fence. There's a couple of moments like that. But but yeah, I mean, so so you know, it's it's interesting. I mean, what else can we say about this character? There's so much I mean and I mean.
00:22:48:05 - 00:22:57:14
Cullen
Even just like I think his character is summed up in a really great line by Clarice when she says when after he escapes and she says, like he's not going to come after me because he would consider it rude.
00:22:57:18 - 00:22:58:02
Clark
Right?
00:22:58:04 - 00:23:05:05
Cullen
And it's like, that's Hannibal Lecter right there. It's like he he's a serial killer. He's a he's a sociopath. He eats people. But he.
00:23:05:15 - 00:23:05:21
Clark
Well.
00:23:06:03 - 00:23:07:05
Cullen
He cares for me. Is he.
00:23:07:05 - 00:23:13:18
Clark
A sociopath? So this is interesting. I don't I don't know if he is or isn't, but this is definitely an interesting discussion.
00:23:13:18 - 00:23:16:17
Cullen
I'd say much more so a sociopath than a psychopath to me.
00:23:16:18 - 00:23:44:07
Clark
Well, it seems as though he does not lack the ability to empathize in this sense that he is absolutely able to read people and understand their human motivations, their pains, their joys. It's not that he lacks the ability to. And and if you look at outtakes and again, I don't know if you know, is it fair to look at outtakes to kind of, you know, discuss this movie?
00:23:44:07 - 00:23:51:15
Clark
But I don't think that my idea of him is not that he is an unfeeling.
00:23:51:20 - 00:24:12:03
Cullen
So that's the key difference, though, in a psychopath. This is going to be my my criminology background coming up. But that's the difference between a psychopath and sociopath, that a sociopath is able to understand and feel emotions like empathy and sympathy and things like that. But they're also able to work over those. So they're able to basically shut that off.
00:24:12:03 - 00:24:37:19
Cullen
So if Lecter were killing somebody that you can shut that side of you off. But you're also and that's why sociopaths are considered much more dangerous when it comes to things like this, because they can relate to empathize with, understand human emotion. They can they can be for all, you know, very regular people, like the rate of sociopaths in society is much higher than psychopaths because psychopaths are unable to empathize, unable to feel those things.
00:24:37:19 - 00:24:57:19
Cullen
They don't have that, you know, development. So they're completely unable to reach that level. Whereas a sociopath is much more hidden because they are able to feel those things and elicit those emotions. And so that's to me where why I would say to me, Lecter's much more sociopathic than psychopathic, because he is able to elicit the empathy.
00:24:57:20 - 00:24:58:20
Clark
And in this story.
00:24:59:00 - 00:25:00:06
Cullen
Yeah, with clarity.
00:25:00:06 - 00:25:16:08
Clark
He he does so more than any other character. Yeah. Aside from Clarice and and you know he, he's able to understand Buffalo Bill and he and I mean he understands Clarice and he's yeah he's you know kind of there's this back story that he was a.
00:25:16:14 - 00:25:17:11
Cullen
He's a therapist.
00:25:17:16 - 00:25:39:23
Clark
He's a therapist and one of the best who, you know, ever did his thing. And, you know, but, but it's interesting. I mean, it seems to me that that he has his own set of criteria and rules by which he lives, which, of course, we all do. His are quite extreme and you'd mention that in his world, being rude is like a capital crime, you know, and maybe it's kind of fun.
00:25:39:23 - 00:25:56:02
Clark
And that we've all felt this way. I think we've all felt this way a little bit. How many times have you been driving down the road and somebody doesn't use their blinker and cuts you off and for like a moment you're like, you know, you could kind of like we've all been the victim of somebody else's rudeness. Know, it's interesting, right?
00:25:56:02 - 00:26:33:05
Clark
Because what is rudeness? Rudeness is a lack of attention, conscientiousness or empathy toward another person. That's basically what rudeness is. So it's interesting that Dr. Lecter is actually when he is, you know, and and actually it kind of, you know, sets him in motion, giving Clarice information when Clarice has that really graphic interaction with the with the cell mate right next to which is pretty gruesome and gross that I don't even know if I want to specifically outline what happens as she walks by his cell in this podcast.
00:26:33:09 - 00:26:54:02
Clark
It involves younger listening for our younger listeners, but it definitely does involve bodily fluids being thrown on someone's face. But but that extreme act of rudeness kind of, you know, catalyzes Dr. Lecter and be like, you know, I'm going to I'm going to help you, you know, because you had to endure that rudeness. I'm going to help you.
00:26:54:02 - 00:26:57:15
Clark
At least that's the excuse he kind of uses to to begin this dialog.
00:26:57:15 - 00:27:03:00
Cullen
And I think it's authentic. Like, at least that's my read for it, is that is genuine. Like, that's his that's the like you said that it's.
00:27:03:00 - 00:27:06:13
Clark
The only time you see him emotional in the scene.
00:27:06:14 - 00:27:08:11
Cullen
Almost Yeah. And almost apologetic.
00:27:08:16 - 00:27:16:06
Clark
He is it's the only time you see his heart rate elevate and he's like, because you had to endure this rudeness, I'm going to help you out.
00:27:16:06 - 00:27:37:11
Cullen
And there's the shot to again of like right after that happens that Clarice and him are mere, you know, inches apart except for the glass that they get. You know, there's the all the rules don't get close to the glass, don't make eye contact, blah, blah, blah. And then she writes right up in his face and it's like, yeah, again, feels very much like it's at least shot in this, like, melodramatic, romantic way, which I find very interesting.
00:27:37:19 - 00:27:39:00
Cullen
I could make for sure.
00:27:39:00 - 00:27:47:05
Clark
I mean, they certainly are intellectually intimate. They are psychologically intimate. There's no question. Yeah, I mean, subtle.
00:27:47:05 - 00:27:48:09
Cullen
It's very subtle. That's the thing.
00:27:48:09 - 00:28:24:12
Clark
Well, I think I think that it actually it gets quite obvious. I feel like. Yes, yes. Really quick. Later on. It's like you have you have her sharing with him things that about her life and her childhood that are profoundly intimate and that most if most of us would have to know someone extremely well to tell someone. I mean, you some of the you know, we might we might not tell anybody other than our significant other or maybe sometimes not even then, some of these really deep, painful foundational hurts of our childhood.
00:28:24:19 - 00:28:29:11
Clark
This is profoundly intimate. This is profound. Oddly, what I get emotionally.
00:28:29:11 - 00:28:45:05
Cullen
Connected to is that it's all under the guise of this quid pro quo. But Lecter doesn't break that. And Lecter is, you know, almost arguably sort of in a way as open, like he doesn't reveal things from his childhood and stuff like that. But he definitely, you know, even just handing her the towel.
00:28:45:18 - 00:28:46:03
Clark
Well, he's.
00:28:46:03 - 00:29:02:20
Cullen
Fairly out of the race fair. He's fair. And he's again, he's polite, he's gentlemanly. And that's kind of what's funny is that, you know, in the background of the story, there's the idea that Lecter, as as many people who go on to be serial killers are was like abused as a child and stuff like that. So there's this almost but we don't.
00:29:02:20 - 00:29:03:19
Clark
See this in the film.
00:29:03:19 - 00:29:04:20
Cullen
And that's not in the film.
00:29:04:20 - 00:29:05:20
Clark
At all, but not in this film.
00:29:05:20 - 00:29:23:16
Cullen
It's written into the background of the character and it's not yet not even mentioned at all. Yeah, but I do think that like looking at it with that kind of eye is interesting because you do again, get this sense of like Clarice has gone through a very different type of childhood trauma. You know, she lost her father and then she had to go live on this farm and.
00:29:23:16 - 00:29:24:15
Clark
All these characters.
00:29:25:01 - 00:29:25:11
Cullen
And yeah.
00:29:25:17 - 00:29:27:08
Clark
Have this kind of childhood.
00:29:27:08 - 00:29:28:04
Cullen
And Buffalo Bill.
00:29:28:04 - 00:29:53:20
Clark
Was when we moved to Buffalo Bill. We'll see that. That's very much a part of the the explanation of his character. And it's explicitly explained in the film that he had a traumatic childhood and that led him to be the person he is. But I mean, so, yeah, you know, and then we have like we can kind of touch on Anthony Hopkins performance, which I mean, again, it's, you know, it's really what I if I'm not mistaken, I think it was Sean Connery was the first choice for.
00:29:53:21 - 00:29:54:15
Cullen
He declined.
00:29:54:16 - 00:29:57:19
Clark
And he declined it. And I'm like and Robert, I can't leave it, you know.
00:29:58:03 - 00:29:59:00
Cullen
So yeah.
00:29:59:00 - 00:30:28:20
Clark
Yeah, I can't fathom him as And of course, I don't think any of us can imagine it's like none of us can imagine anybody other than Hot Buffalo Bill, which he just nailed yet. Also, like, you know, Hopkins is such a fantastic job but it's you're right. It's this it's this very calm, very still, very refined, very elegant, very polite, very intelligent and borderline.
00:30:28:23 - 00:30:30:08
Cullen
On the performative, too.
00:30:30:16 - 00:30:49:14
Clark
But well, a he and that's why I made the joke a little bit earlier about Silence of the Ham. There are, you know, but it works here. It absolutely works here. But yet I mean, Hopkins does you know, he plays with this role. He's clearly having fun with it. And and that's I mean, look, it's great to see and clearly it's a fan favorite.
00:30:49:14 - 00:30:52:04
Clark
People love it. It's you know, it's wonderful. But he did I think.
00:30:53:00 - 00:31:05:18
Cullen
Too. I think I think one of the reasons it works so well in the character is that it it's it it feels more like Lecter is hamming it up than Hopkins. Like it feels like Lecter is putting on this performance for.
00:31:05:19 - 00:31:30:10
Clark
I think that's a great note. I think you're absolutely right. I think it completely fits. Hopkins is so he does such a wonderful job embodying this character that you're absolutely right. It feels like this is Lecter. And yeah, that's a great point. And I feel like that it's such a fine line. And it could have, I think, in the hands of a lesser actor, it could have absolutely seemed like the actor being performative proposed to the.
00:31:30:10 - 00:31:40:16
Cullen
Character in Manhunter, I think doesn't doesn't hold a candle to Hopkins because of that. Brian Cox in Manhunter is playing a villain. He's playing somebody who's like, like.
00:31:40:16 - 00:31:41:17
Clark
The little, like figure.
00:31:41:17 - 00:31:48:02
Cullen
Like he sits, you know, he sits in the cell and it's like, Well, Mr. Crawford, if you want your answers, I'll give like.
00:31:48:05 - 00:31:50:00
Clark
A Bond villain. Like a Bond villain?
00:31:50:00 - 00:31:52:18
Cullen
No. And it feels like that. And it's really cheesy. It's really yeah. Again.
00:31:53:00 - 00:31:54:11
Clark
He's got a canon like Glass and.
00:31:54:11 - 00:32:18:00
Cullen
Not a really big fan of Manhunter because a lot of a lot of it just again, is so over-the-top. Whereas again, like you said in this one, you know, Hopkins lives in that kid much in the same way that FOSTER like what an incredible, perfect storm of of two actors who were just are just brilliant. You know, Jodie Foster is is one of my favorite actors of all time.
00:32:18:00 - 00:32:18:18
Cullen
I think she's.
00:32:18:18 - 00:32:20:10
Clark
Just a really intelligent actor.
00:32:20:10 - 00:32:21:14
Cullen
And simplistic actor.
00:32:21:16 - 00:32:21:23
Clark
Yeah.
00:32:21:23 - 00:32:41:16
Cullen
Who does the work? Who is one of those actors that, like every director, dreams to work with because she brings so much to the page? Yeah. And brings some. And, you know, listening to the conversations that she and Demi had on the production of this are just incredible because it's one of those things where it's like, you know, again, every director dreams to work with an actor who fully understands the ins and outs of a character.
00:32:41:16 - 00:33:03:01
Clark
But I know she had a lot of input in the production. I mean, she made, you know, just just an example. I mean, she you know, you hear her talk about the opening scene and originally as it was written. Yeah. You know, they wanted basically to have this kind of little bit of a teaser where, you know, she's she's you know, actually, I'm trying to remember exactly.
00:33:03:01 - 00:33:03:22
Clark
But basically, Terry.
00:33:03:23 - 00:33:04:08
Cullen
You know, she's.
00:33:04:08 - 00:33:21:12
Clark
Like down a bad guy. She's like hunting down a bad guy. And it's like, yeah, terrorist or something. And, you know, and she shoots the person or she makes a mistake and shoots someone else. I can't remember exactly, but basically a real action oriented scene where she's gunning somebody down and then, you know, cut her surprised. It was a training scenario.
00:33:21:12 - 00:33:40:14
Clark
Yeah. So we kind of have this little bit of a, you know, of a fake out and but it's kind of a much more action oriented scene. And she's like, you know, I don't want to go that route. That's not the kind of character that I want to represent here. And and that's exactly what you talked about, Colin, that she didn't want to be just another action oriented heroine here.
00:33:40:20 - 00:33:48:20
Clark
And she's like, No, I want to have her in this obstacle course that we show her, you know, doing her thing. And it's not.
00:33:48:20 - 00:33:59:05
Cullen
Subtle. Like literally the first shot of the movie is her climbing up a hill. Absolutely, because it's an uphill battle. But I love that sometimes subtlety can be overrated in that way, too. Like, I don't mind a movie where.
00:33:59:05 - 00:34:03:02
Clark
Oh, there's definitely not a lot there's a lot of things that aren't subtle in this film, but.
00:34:03:06 - 00:34:20:00
Cullen
And there's there's a lot that are in life that are that's what I think is so interest. Like while I like examining this movie and I've seen it so many times and yeah, it's I pretty much watch it once a year because to me it's it's there's so much subtle in the character work and subtlety and I would say like really deep analysis and the psychology of these characters.
00:34:20:00 - 00:34:27:09
Cullen
But at the same time, like you said, a lot of the choices are also worn on the sleeve. A lot of it is very out in the open, very cheesy, very hammy. It's just.
00:34:27:09 - 00:34:47:20
Clark
Fun. It's a lot of fun, and it's fun for me to talk about it with you, to see it through your eyes. Because again, like, you know, it's been probably 15 years at least since I've seen the film. I've only seen it a couple of times. It is not on my list of films that I watch with any frequency, and I've not spent a lot of time in thought about it or discussion of it.
00:34:47:20 - 00:35:07:03
Clark
And so it's fun for me. I always love doing that, to watch another, you know, to kind of see a film through another person's eyes, who's a huge fan of that film, because I almost always like way more often than not, I end up leaving those conversations with a lot more appreciation for the film. So it's fine for me because my goal is always to love.
00:35:07:03 - 00:35:22:22
Clark
I mean, look, I wish I loved every single film I saw, right? I mean, that's the whole when I when I sit down to watch a film, my hope is that I will absolutely love it. So, you know, that's what I'm always looking for. I don't ever want to watch a film to hate it, you know? Yeah, yeah.
00:35:23:00 - 00:35:25:14
Clark
Let's talk a little bit about Buffalo Bill then. Yeah.
00:35:26:06 - 00:35:30:20
Cullen
Who I again? James Garner. James Gum is his real name, but yeah, Ted Levine plays him.
00:35:31:01 - 00:35:31:12
Clark
Yes.
00:35:31:12 - 00:35:41:22
Cullen
Who I think is like I really love not in a ton of movies, but I think when he's a great character actor, steals the scenes that he's in, he's such a Yeah, I like I would I dream to work with Ted Levine.
00:35:43:01 - 00:35:44:01
Clark
Ted If you're listening.
00:35:44:11 - 00:36:15:15
Cullen
Ted Yeah, come be in my thing. But, you know, I think that, you know, Ted Levine to me is somebody just to talk about him for just a brief moment. Sure. And then to get into Buffalo Bill. But somebody that commands attention, like if you want to talk about an actor that that you know is is so he doesn't again very different from the style of character that Lecter is or that the style that Hopkins plays Lecter in which is very subtle not subtle but you know very.
00:36:15:20 - 00:36:18:09
Clark
Still very methodical still yeah very.
00:36:18:09 - 00:36:47:12
Cullen
Haunting. Buffalo Bill in so many ways is the opposite of that. Yeah. Is is impulsive. He's dogmatic. He's he's, he's desperate. And and I love that about Ted Levine's characterization of him where it's like even the lines that you know, the few lines that Ted Levine has in the movie, he always seems unsure of whether he's saying them like, not in an acting sense, but, you know, just the character itself always feels like he's every time he speaks that he's not sure if he said the right thing or not.
00:36:47:15 - 00:37:06:16
Clark
Well, the thing that sticks out to me most, right, so is as someone who hasn't spent a lot of time studying this film, I mean, right off the bat, and it was something that I instantly remembered being really affected by when I first saw the film is his voice to the point where I was literally like, Is this this actor's voice?
00:37:06:18 - 00:37:16:08
Clark
Like, What are they doing here? I'm like, Is this a Christian Bale Batman thing? Or is this like, I mean, he has one of the creepiest voices in that film I have ever heard.
00:37:16:08 - 00:37:25:01
Cullen
Yes. Yeah. Oh, and and it's it's so impressionable. Like, me and my friends will almost always, you know, just do the, like, you know. Oh, wait, is she a great big.
00:37:25:01 - 00:37:26:05
Clark
Fat lady or like.
00:37:27:05 - 00:37:27:09
Cullen
I.
00:37:27:19 - 00:37:29:13
Clark
Yeah, you and everybody else. Yeah.
00:37:29:14 - 00:37:45:12
Cullen
I've written sketches about these characters because of how, you know, how he delivers a lot. But again, one of those things that is so like for somebody, you know, I think it's so funny that like the two probably most quotable characters in this movie have the least screentime like they've got, you know, Hopkins, I think, has like, Max 15 minutes.
00:37:45:12 - 00:37:47:20
Cullen
Ted Levine probably has like 7 minutes.
00:37:47:23 - 00:37:50:21
Clark
And it's what we take away from the whole film. Yeah. And it's because.
00:37:50:21 - 00:37:54:07
Cullen
They're so, so good. Juicy is so.
00:37:54:07 - 00:37:55:23
Clark
Yeah. I mean, you know.
00:37:55:23 - 00:38:15:13
Cullen
Yeah, I just, again, it's just, it's he really lives in that role, I think, and the physicality and everything about it is just like he, I don't know, it's, it's hard to explain some. It's like when you say like that sometimes movies just work, sometimes characters work too. And you kind of like it's so hard to pinpoint exactly what is so good about them.
00:38:15:18 - 00:38:31:19
Cullen
But yeah, so. Ted Levine And but so what did you I'm actually curious know what you what you think after so many years of seeing it. Yeah of like what? You know, because I've heard a lot of people say that it is again a very like it's a borderline almost comedic performance.
00:38:32:01 - 00:39:07:18
Clark
Well, I mean there definitely is to it. One of the things that's challenging is that, you know so so by now. Right. The film is something different than what it was in 1991. The reason being that this film did have such a cultural impact. It has been parodied, satirized. It's been you know, it's inspired films. It's you know I mean so many it so it's it's you take all of that baggage with you into the viewing of the film now so there is I think some are there are some comedic elements to the film when watching it.
00:39:07:18 - 00:39:34:20
Clark
Now just because it's it's permeated our culture. It's been parodied so much that you can't help but to bring some of those memories into the film when you watch it now. And I can't I can't put myself back in 1991, I don't recall it feeling comedic in 1991, but I do definitely get a sense that there's there is some comedy, and I think the film in some ways is a little like, clearly it was ripe for parody because it was parodied so much.
00:39:35:01 - 00:39:49:06
Clark
Yeah, And I think some of that is that, you know, so many of these performances really ride that line. So it's kind of ripe for parody. It's like Hopkins really rides that razor thin line. Buffalo Bill is a character, really writes that line.
00:39:49:12 - 00:39:52:03
Cullen
So I mean, I call it breaches.
00:39:52:11 - 00:39:53:07
Clark
Yeah, just like that.
00:39:53:07 - 00:39:54:22
Cullen
It's like really good cheese.
00:39:54:22 - 00:39:55:17
Clark
I love that. Yeah.
00:39:55:18 - 00:39:58:22
Cullen
You know that. It's not, it's not it's not cheesy in the way. That's bad.
00:39:58:22 - 00:40:01:20
Clark
It's good. Yeah. It's not Velveeta. It's Brie. Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:02:00 - 00:40:23:06
Cullen
So, and, and I and I think kind of what you said as well, which is, is, is that I, too, when I first watched this movie, didn't think it was comedic at all, you know? Yeah, it's it's thrilling. It's suspenseful. It's, it's, you know, psychological and dark and stuff like that. And then it wasn't until I think probably the first time I really found myself, like, laughing out loud at some of the moments.
00:40:23:06 - 00:40:26:21
Cullen
And because they're so just like rich with with well.
00:40:27:00 - 00:40:47:16
Clark
Certainly Dr. Chilton is I mean, his character is just he's like a polyester suit wearing lounge lizard. Like I mean, his character is so over-the-top, too. It's it's it's I think it's funny. I mean, in 1991, was it funny? I don't know. But I look at it now in 2021 and I'm like, oh, God, yeah. He's I'm like, sleazy.
00:40:47:20 - 00:40:48:02
Clark
I mean.
00:40:48:08 - 00:41:04:10
Cullen
What I think is so funny, too, is that the only character to me, the only male character really, that's like comforting is is Barney, who is the like the one of the guards that kind of is in that little air locker room? Oh, like Barney. I think it's actually a really interesting choice to have that character even in the movie at all.
00:41:04:12 - 00:41:05:12
Clark
Yeah, because.
00:41:06:10 - 00:41:08:13
Cullen
Them like, there's something about that I don't remember with the.
00:41:08:17 - 00:41:14:03
Clark
It's like the last it's like the last line of defense of humanity before you go in to like.
00:41:14:11 - 00:41:17:23
Cullen
That guy and you just, you like I bet he gives the best hugs like.
00:41:18:01 - 00:41:34:00
Clark
Well, that's what I mean. It's almost like the last line of humanity before you step into this, this underworld, Right? I mean, and we can talk we're going to talk about this in a minute, too. But that, you know, the production design of that jail cell is far from realistic. That is not a realistic looking holding cell. Come on.
00:41:34:06 - 00:41:57:22
Clark
It's it. And there's a reason why it looks like a dungeon, just like Buffalo Bill's basement. Look, that's also pretty unrealistic that someone's basement would look like that, although more realistic and some like East Coast areas. But I mean, I think, look, we'd be remiss if we didn't bring this thing up. I think it's important that generally we don't go too far into kind of, you know, discussions of like the politics of a film and things like that.
00:41:57:22 - 00:42:25:09
Clark
But I think this is important. And it was something, you know, that in 91 this would not have stood out to me, but it definitely stood out to me in 2021, is that, you know, the represents of transgender people in Buffalo, Bill and you know, it's I think that's important. I think especially if people can have I've listened to a handful of of YouTube videos of analysis around this subject about this film from.
00:42:25:09 - 00:42:26:18
Cullen
Trans people as well, which is.
00:42:27:00 - 00:42:42:07
Clark
Absolutely which is where I but, you know, I'm trying to listen to trans voices about this. And I absolutely can see and I mean, especially in the context of when this film came out where they were very few, if any, positive trans role.
00:42:42:07 - 00:42:42:21
Cullen
Models.
00:42:42:21 - 00:43:10:20
Clark
In media representations and media. And so, I mean, I absolutely can see how this would have been just one more, you know, negative representation on the pile of all these negative representations of trans people in media and, you know, to me, it seems it seems to me that, you know, it's a big part of how they tried to make Buffalo Bill seem like a dangerous outside out, like an alien outside.
00:43:10:20 - 00:43:14:00
Cullen
Weird. Yeah, weird, I think. What character.
00:43:14:08 - 00:43:36:14
Clark
Was that? His. Yeah. And I was just going to say it. I mean, they do speak to it directly in the film, but even in the way they speak to it, you know, still, I don't think lets the film off the hook now. You know, it's a product of its time. And so it's, you know, and it's good to see that, you know, it illustrates, I hope, the progress that we're making for other, you know, people in other voices.
00:43:36:14 - 00:43:45:20
Clark
But, you know, I mean, they do kind of and I've heard some people say, well, look, they speak to it in the film and, you know, they say he's not truly a transgender person, which I'm like, I don't even know what that. But I.
00:43:45:20 - 00:43:49:22
Cullen
Was going to mention that means that to now is such a big I don't think is like.
00:43:49:22 - 00:43:51:18
Clark
Does that help anything. I don't think that it.
00:43:52:21 - 00:43:53:15
Cullen
Is trans.
00:43:53:16 - 00:44:18:23
Clark
Right Yeah You know and not only that, but it's like, you know trans people are would I forget the exact I'm not going to get this right verbatim but that they're like they're actually gentle and subdued or, you know that somehow you can categorize an entire group of people is this one way. Yeah and and so there's a handful of places in there where I feel like, you know, it illustrates, I think, an older point of view in these films.
00:44:18:23 - 00:44:22:07
Clark
And so I think it's just important to note, you know, that I think and obviously.
00:44:22:21 - 00:44:30:02
Cullen
You know, it's not clear, you know, neither Amu nor Clark are trans. So obviously we can't the best that we can really do is listen.
00:44:30:05 - 00:44:31:02
Clark
Listen to other.
00:44:31:10 - 00:44:38:16
Cullen
You know, and if anyone who's watching would like to actually do further research, one of the videos that I sent over to Clark to I think you actually said you'd.
00:44:38:19 - 00:44:44:07
Clark
First of all, if you're watching, I'll be a little scared because that means you're outside my window right now. And that would feel weird. But if you're.
00:44:44:07 - 00:44:45:00
Cullen
Listening, you're in my.
00:44:45:01 - 00:44:46:19
Clark
Listening if you're.
00:44:46:19 - 00:44:58:05
Cullen
Listening and you want to kind of follow up on that, there's a really interesting video by contra points that goes through basically the entire mythology of like trans people in media and both films, which I think and of course.
00:44:58:07 - 00:44:59:06
Clark
Well worth a lot trans.
00:44:59:06 - 00:45:18:00
Cullen
Women. So yeah, you know, a direct, you know, primary source of of knowledge from that and of course, again, just like any community, the trans community is not a monolith. There are some trans people who say that there's no issue with Silence of the Lambs as just as there are some people who say that it should be banned and, you know, no community is a monolith.
00:45:18:00 - 00:45:37:16
Cullen
So there's going to be a very, you know, diverse perspectives. But I think what's important is, is just, again, like you said, listening. And, you know, you don't have to I think the what I think is a really good point that contra points makes is that like, you don't have to hate a movie to just because it's got, you know, dated politics in it.
00:45:37:16 - 00:46:02:03
Cullen
But what it can do is you can just, you know, watch it with that lens. You know, we know nowadays how differently, trans people are identified in just culture, in not only pop culture, but just, you know, society and how they're you know, how they're seen, how they're how they're portrayed is so radically different today in a lot of good ways that you can kind of go back to these things.
00:46:02:03 - 00:46:23:23
Cullen
And again, using the modern lens that we have, watch the movie and sort of go, okay, yeah, that would definitely be done differently today. And I think, you know, one of the things that I think honestly would even help this movie and it's such a simple change, would be having just one moment with an actual trans person that's that, you know, that Clarice goes and talks to or something like that.
00:46:23:23 - 00:46:24:14
Cullen
And so you.
00:46:24:14 - 00:46:25:12
Clark
Could be just again.
00:46:25:12 - 00:46:43:08
Cullen
This idea of like, okay, here's a voice from someone who is actually, you know, and again, that's that's another thing that really comes up in the movie's discourse is like when the word actually trans, you know, is said or like that, you know that Buffalo Bills bill is not a real trans person. And again, that's such a hot topic of debate today.
00:46:43:12 - 00:46:57:23
Cullen
You know, like what makes someone really trans versus not Is it does it have to be a medical diagnosis or can it be mental? Can it be something that, you know, if someone just feels like they are a woman, does that make them as so? Yeah, very again.
00:46:58:12 - 00:47:01:01
Clark
Very much a obviously a topic. You could get into a.
00:47:01:01 - 00:47:01:14
Cullen
Great deal.
00:47:01:14 - 00:47:17:03
Clark
Of detail about but but yeah, interesting too. Interesting to note too, as we look at the film, it's a So speaking of looking at the film, let's talk a little bit about how the film looks. Jackie What I did there wasn't that fancy. So just.
00:47:17:03 - 00:47:19:11
Cullen
Like the people are looking in through our window watching us right now.
00:47:19:17 - 00:47:35:01
Clark
So exactly. So, you know, a handful of things jump out to me. The first thing that I really that really jumped out to me was, Holy crap, these close ups and to the camera, I mean, holy like, wow, that I mean, that stood out to me.
00:47:35:06 - 00:47:37:11
Cullen
So I love them. So I don't know. I don't know if you like.
00:47:37:11 - 00:48:03:10
Clark
Or I don't dislike. I don't dislike. And you kind of, you know, that I kind of well, maybe that we've talked about, again, like wide versus longer lenses and, you know, getting up in people's faces and and using close ups and things. I'm not fundamentally closeups at all. It was just something that really stood out to me. It was a it was a personal choice, obviously, that the cinematographer and Demi chose to to shoot in this way.
00:48:04:05 - 00:48:20:02
Clark
It is certainly I think it does a couple of things for me. I mean, one, you you really get a sense that you're in Clarice as she is. So, so many of her conversations with these other characters, the characters are darn near looking straight into the barrel like they are.
00:48:20:02 - 00:48:20:21
Cullen
Oh, they are, in many.
00:48:21:00 - 00:48:37:06
Clark
Cases, in many cases, it's right. It's like they are looking right into camera, which is usually a major. No, no. And it's like I mean, it's, you know, from from top a head to like not even the bottom of their chin. I mean, it's like extreme close up on their face. Almost almost what.
00:48:37:06 - 00:48:45:02
Cullen
I what I think is so brilliant about that, though, why I really like it is because the movie almost makes it a part of it's it's it's storytelling.
00:48:45:07 - 00:48:48:04
Clark
Oh, it does doesn't stand out. No, it's throughout the whole film right.
00:48:48:05 - 00:49:14:21
Cullen
At the beginning, kind of be like, oh, that's that's an interesting way to shoot that. But then again, because it happens so frequently and because it's such a it really works, I think. And Tak Fujimoto, who is the cinematographer for it, I think he even just the way that he like, I really appreciate his work, especially in this because he's one of those cinematographers that I think has kind of strikes the perfect balance between naturalistic lighting and heightened kind of old Hollywood style lighting.
00:49:14:21 - 00:49:15:07
Clark
Yeah.
00:49:15:16 - 00:49:31:05
Cullen
And like that really subjective kind of perhaps even kind of gearing into the expressionistic style. But but again, it's I think that it he, he really strikes a really fine line between them that really works.
00:49:31:05 - 00:49:31:10
Clark
Yeah.
00:49:31:12 - 00:49:52:07
Cullen
And you know, that very much relates to not only the lighting but you know, as we were talking about the, the way that dialog is shot, the way that conversations are shot and that it's you feel so much, you know, and I mentioned this I don't know if I mentioned for the recording if it was prior to the recording, but that this movie is first person, both in the literal and figurative sense.
00:49:52:14 - 00:49:53:13
Clark
It very much is in.
00:49:53:13 - 00:49:57:23
Cullen
That like people are constantly looking directly at camera, directly at the audience.
00:49:57:23 - 00:50:03:16
Clark
Yeah. You see this whole film from Clarice's perspective, there's no question, which is a band again in the book, the.
00:50:03:17 - 00:50:27:02
Cullen
Storytelling standpoint, you gap as well. And I think that but again, another really interesting thing that is probably a little bit more subtle than the the like directly down the barrel shots is that Demi was really, really Demi and Fujimoto were both really conscious to shoot every single dialog scene differently so that they did not rely on just, you know.
00:50:27:06 - 00:50:29:00
Clark
Over the shoulder, over the shoulder to show.
00:50:29:00 - 00:50:42:07
Cullen
Exactly they they really made a conscious effort to to make it feel as Clarice is feeling every time she's talking to someone. Not only is she getting new information, but she's in a new setting. She's in a new place.
00:50:42:14 - 00:50:43:15
Clark
So character. Yeah. You know.
00:50:43:15 - 00:50:51:12
Cullen
Let's let's bring this up so that No, no. Two dialog scenes in this movie look the same. I think, you know, I think that it's it's.
00:50:51:12 - 00:51:00:04
Clark
One which is challenging, which is very challenging. I mean, it sounds maybe simple, but anybody out there who who's who's ever shot, you know, just, you know, which of.
00:51:00:14 - 00:51:01:20
Cullen
The people at a table talking.
00:51:02:00 - 00:51:21:02
Clark
The bulk of the film. Yeah. Yeah. The bulk of a film is often two people talking, right. Or maybe two or three people talking. And it's if you watch any two, especially television. But if you watch, I mean, sometimes 80% of a show of a, you know, a TV show or a film might be over the shoulder, over the shoulder to shot over the shoulder, over the shoulder to specially.
00:51:21:02 - 00:51:22:07
Cullen
In dramas like this.
00:51:22:07 - 00:51:48:12
Clark
Especially in dramas and and especially in TV. And so we get really used to it. And it's it's an efficient way to shoot in the sense, in a timely sense. And certainly, you know, it's often there's nothing wrong with it but to, to modify that, to change that, to find different ways to shoot that it's, it's difficult and to not have it be obtrusive and to not, you know, to it's still serving the story right.
00:51:48:12 - 00:51:52:13
Clark
And it's not distracting from the story. It's tough in speaking.
00:51:52:13 - 00:52:02:07
Cullen
Of that, too distracting like like being obtrusive with camera work and stuff. I also kind of want to mention the the longer Steadicam takes in this movie.
00:52:02:11 - 00:52:04:00
Clark
I think that the one. So yeah.
00:52:05:03 - 00:52:08:17
Cullen
A little bit of pretense. Paul Thomas Anderson, who I think is a.
00:52:09:00 - 00:52:10:09
Clark
Pretense, a pretext.
00:52:10:09 - 00:52:11:11
Cullen
Pretext and a pretense.
00:52:12:00 - 00:52:19:14
Clark
But but there's a Freudian slip. You can certainly have a lot of pretense in a oner. Yeah, but so, so great. Yeah.
00:52:20:07 - 00:52:32:08
Cullen
So a little bit of pretext, though, on that kind of, you know, this idea is that Paul Thomas Anderson is a huge fan of Jonathan Demme, so much so that he dedicated his previous movie Phantom Thread to Demi after he passed away.
00:52:32:08 - 00:52:34:20
Clark
Oh, that's right. I had forgotten that.
00:52:35:06 - 00:52:41:19
Cullen
You can really see Demi's influence on Anderson in his earlier work. You know, less so hard because I think that he had.
00:52:41:19 - 00:52:42:21
Clark
Less, didn't have the money.
00:52:43:07 - 00:52:48:06
Cullen
And just didn't have the money. But in Boogie Nights and in Magnolia especially, you see Anderson.
00:52:48:06 - 00:52:49:20
Clark
Really all over long.
00:52:49:20 - 00:52:53:06
Cullen
Want like most of the scenes in that movie are just one or superior, you know.
00:52:53:08 - 00:52:54:08
Clark
And so a lot.
00:52:54:08 - 00:53:02:08
Cullen
Of people love those those movies. I'm more of a fan of of PETA's later work because I think he really brings that back and becomes less overstated.
00:53:02:14 - 00:53:02:21
Clark
Yeah.
00:53:03:17 - 00:53:31:05
Cullen
But the reason I mentioning that is because I think it's a really great example of bringing attention to a shot like Peter does and kind of almost using it to show off your skills as a director versus in you know, Silence of the Lambs and the way Demi handles these long takes on Steadicam that they're hidden, that they surround, and that so one, you know, perhaps one of the more famous examples of it is when they're heading down to Lecter's cell for the first time.
00:53:31:05 - 00:53:52:11
Cullen
And Chitlins is bringing Clarice down. And it's not entirely one take. There's a few cuts, but it's very it's a strung out scene. A very long takes of them walking. Yeah. And but you don't feel it. You don't feel like it's long takes because you're, you're walking with them and it serves the story because you're realizing that again, kind of like I mentioned earlier, that this guy is literally in the seventh circle of hell.
00:53:52:14 - 00:53:53:08
Clark
Yeah, there are.
00:53:53:08 - 00:54:12:22
Cullen
Walls and doors and gates and bars and everything that's going and you're you're walking down into this depths of these dungeons and that, you know, on the upper floors of the asylum that all the walls are white and they're newly painted. And then you get down to this stone dungeon that looks like it barely has running water. And again, I think that's really interesting.
00:54:13:06 - 00:54:37:04
Cullen
And again, it's one of those choices that's like it serves the story. It you know, the choice to make those long liners or in the they're very seamless. One of the first times that you see Buffalo Bill's full basement is a oner going through and following a moth and following his moth collection and then it goes and rushes by Buffalo Bill as he's sewing skin his skin suit, and then goes down the stairs into the well.
00:54:37:04 - 00:54:54:21
Cullen
And again, why that works so well and why that's so effective and also a doesn't feel like it's Demi showing off and is hardly even really recognizable as a oner is because it's setting up the geography for the scene so that later on when Kelly Clarice is trapped down there we know Holy shit, this place is like a labyrinth.
00:54:54:21 - 00:55:02:07
Cullen
This place is like a maze. And I think that's such a really great way to to establish geography in a scene like that when that it also.
00:55:02:07 - 00:55:02:15
Clark
Tells you.
00:55:02:15 - 00:55:03:20
Cullen
So vital later on.
00:55:03:20 - 00:55:27:19
Clark
Absolutely. And it also tells us so much about the character, though. It you know, in a funny, strange way, it it reminds me a lot about the opening shot of Back to the Future, where you've got this tracking shot and we are learning so much about Marty and Doc and their relationship and where are who are they and what are they doing and all of this kind of it tells us the history about the town and the clocktower and the history of Doc getting the plutonium.
00:55:27:19 - 00:55:49:20
Clark
It's actually an extraordinary shot. And it just so much exposition and so much character. We learn so much about the characters, but in a way, I feel like that shot you just described is like that for our for Buffalo Bill. We learned about the geography, but we also learned so much about him. And in the visual density of the things that we're seeing as we explore his geography.
00:55:50:03 - 00:55:51:00
Clark
Yeah, so.
00:55:51:00 - 00:56:09:03
Cullen
And so I mean, and then it comes down to editing, to the editing in this movie I think is really, you know, a masterwork in how again, I always kind of reference the scenes that like go into dream sequences or memories or flashbacks or. Clarice Yeah, but they're not done in a typical, you know, close up of someone's face.
00:56:09:03 - 00:56:12:04
Cullen
And then she goes and thinks about, do, do you get like.
00:56:12:15 - 00:56:14:05
Clark
The white outline.
00:56:14:06 - 00:56:17:12
Cullen
Of like a smoky fogginess And it had doo doo doo doo.
00:56:17:12 - 00:56:18:12
Clark
Doo doo doo doo doo. But.
00:56:19:04 - 00:56:39:07
Cullen
But no it's, it's done in a way that, you know, I think that to me this movie is feels has the most authentic memory in the world in any movie. And in that I mean that it feels like this movie does a really good job, especially with the editing of putting you into feeling like you actually are remembering something because it's.
00:56:39:12 - 00:56:40:01
Clark
Yes.
00:56:40:01 - 00:56:59:02
Cullen
It'll you know, what it'll do is it will like pick up on hints of things that, that remind Clarice of something. And then so for example she'll see she sees the police car drive by and then it cuts to a shot of a police car driving by and her watching a police car drive by as a kid and her dad pull up.
00:56:59:12 - 00:57:00:17
Cullen
And that's how you get into that.
00:57:01:05 - 00:57:02:13
Clark
Never just gets right to act.
00:57:02:20 - 00:57:25:19
Cullen
Or the point at the funeral home when she's walking up to like as an adult, walking up to this this coffin and you don't know you know, for the entire scene is that POV shot of the coffin her as a kid or as that POV shot of the coffin her as an adult and then it cuts to a reverse of her as a kid, really brilliantly done and just like feeling like that's what memories to me feel like.
00:57:25:19 - 00:57:29:21
Cullen
That's how I think people remember things and have these flashbacks in real life.
00:57:30:06 - 00:57:53:06
Clark
And I think that works so well in this film because it shot so strongly from her POV, from that character's perspective, from beginning to end. Yeah, and I think that decision to do that really sets up the ability to put together these flashback or memory scenes like you're saying, as well as they are. And you're right, that's handled better than most films, handled this kind of thing.
00:57:53:17 - 00:58:21:02
Clark
Absolutely. Yeah. And let's talk a little bit about, you know, we set design. I think we've mentioned this quite a bit, but I think there's there's some really interesting, you know, not necessarily realistic, but so effective at a establishing a feeling, whether that's the holding cell that Lecter is in Buffalo Bill's home and the basement in which he does his horrific, unspeakable acts.
00:58:22:01 - 00:58:35:12
Clark
I mean, it really it kind of, you know, transcends necessarily the realistic it does such an extraordinary job of of setting up the feeling of these characters.
00:58:35:16 - 00:58:41:06
Cullen
And and it does. And, you know, it again, it feels very appropriate for the world of the film.
00:58:42:00 - 00:58:42:14
Clark
You buy it.
00:58:42:14 - 00:58:54:02
Cullen
You buy it exactly like by like I at least for me, whenever I'm watching this movie, I don't even know those cells that like Hecht Lecter and MiGs and all the other dangerous people are and would never exist in real life. That's not how they were.
00:58:54:02 - 00:58:55:14
Clark
Highly unlikely, right? Yeah.
00:58:56:08 - 00:59:02:01
Cullen
But it's still it almost feels like these guys are beyond evil, beyond what we have.
00:59:02:01 - 00:59:23:00
Clark
It does a great job of that, right? Yeah. They're not regular criminals. These are not regular like this. Not a regular jail. And these are regular criminals. It's like you said. It's like they're like going down. You're like, going down to the seventh level, you know? Yes. I mean, you're like you're stepping into hell. And at once you cross that threshold, you're in a different world.
00:59:23:06 - 00:59:27:15
Cullen
And even just like the lighting in that scene when she goes into that is just stark red.
00:59:27:15 - 00:59:28:04
Clark
Yes.
00:59:28:04 - 00:59:44:14
Cullen
You know, it's yes, it's completely red light. And and again, kind of going along, you know, just a little bit of a different topic. But this like even the sound design in that scene, when they get down there, they put submarine sound effects so that it felt like you were in this like in the desert something.
00:59:45:00 - 01:00:07:17
Clark
There's some great stuff with sound design. And I wanted really wanted I wanted to I wanted yeah, I want to examine that in a second because that is a great point. There's some really interesting stuff here. Let's talk about just real briefly, though, as we wrap up, kind of the look of the film and things. You know, some other things that I noticed I felt like were really interesting how the film handles gore and like body horror.
01:00:07:17 - 01:00:31:04
Clark
And there is some of that here. There's definitely some kind of horror aspects. There's definitely some gruesome stuff going on aside from the body in the morgue. You know, a lot of the ways that the film shows us the nature of Buffalo Bill's crimes is that it gives us kind of like a degree of separation to help us, I think, digest that violence.
01:00:31:04 - 01:00:55:17
Clark
And that is by showing us the his what the damage that he's done to these human bodies by having that in photographs in the film. Yeah. So that we're we're not actually looking at the body itself. We're not actually looking at we're looking at a at a representation of a representation. So it's kind of a degree removed and it's an interesting choice by the director, but it certainly helps.
01:00:55:17 - 01:01:19:06
Clark
It allows us to see the gruesome nature of this person's crimes, of this character's crimes, but it removes it a little bit from us so that it's not like a pure horror film, right? It's not what a horror film would do. A horror film would would get right in there and show us the actual body. So so definitely one of the things one of the decisions that keeps this more in the thriller drama realm as opposed to and.
01:01:19:06 - 01:01:26:09
Cullen
Even more even the moment in the morgue, I would say there's no the close ups of the body are forensic. They're not.
01:01:26:16 - 01:01:27:00
Clark
Yes.
01:01:27:00 - 01:01:30:19
Cullen
Like Gore, it's not like going in on the knife wound or whatever. It's it's very.
01:01:31:11 - 01:01:40:02
Clark
It's it's very procedural. Yeah. Matter of fact, they're there. Right. Giving the they're it's a it's a very clinical kind of situation.
01:01:40:02 - 01:01:57:18
Cullen
And again in very much going along with that kind of again to kind of bridge the gap between the the visuals and the audio that the way that Gore is spoken about too is, is very clinical. It's very so like one of the scenes that I that really stands out to me is when they're in the little kind of turboprop, one engine, single engine plane or whatever.
01:01:58:04 - 01:02:21:20
Cullen
And because it's so loud in this space that you have Crawford showing Clarice these photos of the set of or certain on the set the I hope not photos of the set, but photos of the body. And as he's saying this. He has to shout it at her because they're in this loud plane. And so it's like, so funny to me that like and it's such an odd thing.
01:02:21:20 - 01:02:32:08
Cullen
They have these, like, gory details shouted at you have them like, you know, that that is like, you know, the body was found over here. It was it was sad that six piece of its skin cut out, blah, blah, blah.
01:02:32:13 - 01:02:56:20
Clark
Well, the sound is I mean, there's a lot of that in this film. Yeah. You know so and you'd noted, you know, with Howard Shore's score the score doesn't really do much in a traditional kind of horror or thriller sense. Now to highlight these these really heightened, you know, scary moments. Right. The sound design does we have things like you just described.
01:02:56:20 - 01:03:29:16
Clark
We have the the roar of this turboprop plane requiring that the gruesome details be yelled to the protagonist. We have we have other areas where when Hannibal Lecter is in the hangar and he's talking to the senator whose daughter Buffalo Bill has kidnaped, just coincidentally as as Hannibal Lecter is really digging in to this senator and pressing her emotional button, There's a jet engine that rises and rises and rises in volume as it spools up.
01:03:29:16 - 01:03:35:05
Clark
We have, you know, the the barking dog sounds in Buffalo Bill's dungeon.
01:03:35:05 - 01:03:37:04
Cullen
And, you know, good bye horses, which is.
01:03:37:04 - 01:03:37:13
Clark
Yeah.
01:03:37:20 - 01:03:39:06
Cullen
My favorite scene is in the movie. Yeah.
01:03:39:11 - 01:04:11:00
Clark
And it's right we have it's just this, it's this cacophony of of barking and screaming and jets and airplane motors and and even bird sounds, which is really kind of a fun thing given Clarice his last name. And and even and even Lecter makes a little bit of a pun about her last name and so we've got the Hawks and, you know, I'm pretty sure everybody in every movie that's ever used a hawk sound has used that same hawk sound.
01:04:11:00 - 01:04:14:03
Clark
I think, like, yeah, you know, and I think that it's it's.
01:04:14:03 - 01:04:35:00
Cullen
It's really interesting, especially that you mentioned the music. You know, I love the score for this movie as well. And in case you couldn't tell, I love everything this movie. But yeah but I think that the score is is really brilliant too because like you said, it's not it's not a horror movie score. Like even when Clarice is getting up in the like storage lot.
01:04:35:00 - 01:04:41:07
Cullen
And normally that would be very scary. You know, you'd have strings and she'd be looking around this dark storage container and she'd find the head.
01:04:41:07 - 01:04:42:04
Clark
Never.
01:04:42:04 - 01:04:53:18
Cullen
Yeah, I know. It doesn't do that. It's it's, you know, Howard Shore has spoken about it and he said that his goal for the movie wasn't to make the soundtrack for the movie. He was to make the soundtrack for Clarice's mind.
01:04:54:02 - 01:04:54:08
Clark
Yeah.
01:04:54:09 - 01:05:12:00
Cullen
And so that when she sees the you know, in the very opening scene when she's in Crawford's office and she's looking at the wall of bodies, that the music is empathetic, it's not scary because the Reese has empathy for these people. Clarice wants to help them. She doesn't. She's not scared of this. She's or she might be frightened by it and worried and kind of intimidated.
01:05:12:00 - 01:05:15:10
Cullen
She's. But the ultimate thing that keeps driving her forward is the empathy.
01:05:15:10 - 01:05:17:20
Clark
And to want to help the the Exactly.
01:05:17:20 - 01:05:50:12
Cullen
The the drive to save these people. Right. And it's so I think that's really interesting what that the film soundtrack doesn't you know you could listen to it there there's of course like it's not like a happy soundtrack. It's not you know, romantic. It's not it's definitely got an eerie feel to it, but it's unsettling. You know, if you were to listen to it, I don't think that you would immediately point to a serial killer movie and go like, which is also, you know, interesting that because Howard Shore also did the soundtrack for seven, which is completely different, that soundtrack is all like grinding gears and.
01:05:50:13 - 01:05:51:22
Clark
Yeah, creepy.
01:05:51:22 - 01:05:54:14
Cullen
You know, sounds like bugs jittering and.
01:05:54:14 - 01:05:55:08
Clark
Yeah, that's a.
01:05:55:08 - 01:06:20:07
Cullen
Strings and it's very scary very dramatic completely different than this and seven very much a movie that you know perhaps is as you know we looked at perhaps you know was very inspired by if not indirectly by Silence of the Lambs. So it's interesting that the scores for those two movies are two completely different sounds and two different feelings.
01:06:20:13 - 01:06:24:20
Clark
And likewise, Psycho, which is another film like you, of course, Good and of course very easily relates.
01:06:24:20 - 01:06:34:20
Cullen
To the, the, you know, the trans element to cross-dressing and what it does. Cross-dressing and trans are two different things, but still hypes up that stereotype of what it does and killer.
01:06:35:01 - 01:06:59:15
Clark
Yeah, absolutely it does. So definitely some some comparisons that it's kind of this film sits time wise in between those two. But yeah I mean and really you know there's definitely a fascination in American culture and therefore of course in our films, this fascination with serial killers. And of course that extends to this film as well. And I think that's very interesting.
01:06:59:15 - 01:07:21:12
Clark
And I think we see some moments here. It's kind of interesting with a little bit of the production design where this film kind of speaks to that. Yeah, that obsession or that almost celebrity. It was Asian. I don't know if that's a word. If it isn't, I just made it up of serial killers. And, you know, Buffalo Bill kind of representing an amalgam of several serial killers.
01:07:21:12 - 01:07:28:00
Clark
And we see, you know, American flags everywhere and kind of even.
01:07:28:00 - 01:07:30:23
Cullen
At one point draped over a bottle head, you know.
01:07:31:01 - 01:07:51:20
Clark
Basically right where they Clarice finds in the storage unit. So it's you know, certainly there is this this fascination. Of course, I think it's easy to understand the fascination because it it speaks to such an extreme part of the human condition that, you know, I mean, it's hard to not be fascinated in a way that you want to try to understand.
01:07:51:20 - 01:08:22:12
Clark
And how can a human being exhibit this kind of behavior, You know, so at least, you know, I think most people find it fascinating in that way. I guess there's also that sometimes we're fascinated by gruesome things that are far outside of our our own daily lives. And so somewhat like, you know, driving by a car crash, you're kind of compelled to look at such a like a rare, hopefully rare piece of kind of gruesome scene, you know.
01:08:22:12 - 01:08:50:06
Clark
But yeah, but yeah, you know, it's interesting. I it's really been fun to to discuss the film through and hear your perspective on it as somebody who you know, as somebody who really adores this film, I find that it's it's increased my appreciation of it. And maybe I'll go back and watch it again after this conversation. But it's been really enjoyable and yeah, it's been a lot of fun and I've had a blast, man, as I always do.
01:08:50:06 - 01:08:59:06
Clark
And it's not like I don't think I've ever ended one of these conversations and then like, well call in boy that, that, that state that was a waste a week. That was a waste of an hour. Yeah. It's like.
01:08:59:21 - 01:09:00:07
Cullen
Shane.
01:09:00:17 - 01:09:23:05
Clark
That's what keeps me keep it keeps us coming back for more. It's always fun. So yeah, with that, with that being said, Cohen, thank you so much for spending this hour with me discussing this film. Thanks and will be excited to see what we choose to do next time as we explore different films outside of just the realm of Werner Herzog.
01:09:23:05 - 01:09:34:22
Clark
We'll continue that trend. But until next time, everybody, thanks so much for hanging out with us. Thanks so much for listening to. We hope you've enjoyed it. We will see you next time. Bye bye.