Clark
Hello, everyone, and welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I don't know, I just felt I could do like a robot voice there. Anyway, my name is Clark, and with me is Cullen. How are you doing, Cullen?
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Cullen
Good. Good. How are you?
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Clark
I'm doing awesome. Catch it. I'm, like, pumped. Can you feel the energy?
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Cullen
The shining a bit robotic there for you?
00:00:32:02 - 00:00:53:03
Clark
Well, it's like all this time on Zoom, right? I've just been, you know, spending so much time in front of computers. I'm turning into one anyway. Welcome, everybody, for episode three, where we are going to be discussing Cullen's favorite film of all time. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn there. I think you said this was your favorite film.
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Clark
If you had to boil it down to one. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
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Cullen
Yeah, it's actually funny because this has been since I was seven years old when I first saw it, and I felt like that long.
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Clark
That is that well, that it's awesome. It's over. And like, we hit on this numerous times, but it's it's hysterical to me that you and I are 20 years apart. But a testament, obviously, to your fantastic parents or whoever it was in your life that introduced you to all of these amazing films and that you didn't grow up on like Power Rangers or whatever the hell else was on TV when you had Don't even know what was on TV.
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Cullen
I do find that funny because I always there's always, like people that are my age that will reference movies that came out on like more particularly TV movies right around the time that I was young and like, I haven't seen any of them. Like, I don't I don't know what they're talking about.
00:01:42:21 - 00:02:03:15
Clark
Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's like so yeah. So you were, you were raised with some good taste, which is awesome. But yeah, so Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, which of course I'm sure most of you are familiar with, but 1969 Western, directed by George Roy Hill, I always have to slow that down because I don't know why it's the Roy throws me off in the middle of the same.
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Clark
William Goldman, of course, wrote it. And Mr. Paul Newman, who is one of my favorite actors. I was.
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Cullen
Going to say that dude.
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Clark
And may be the most handsome man to have ever lived. Yes. And and and Robert Redford, which it's like, wow. Yeah. When you can when Robert Redford is like, you know, second fiddle.
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Cullen
In this launched his career, too. This was kind of it did big Yeah.
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Clark
It yeah it did. It did. That's right.
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Cullen
I've got right now of course my Sundance mustache on right.
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Clark
You've got your Sundance. Well, of course, you know Sundance Film Festival. And obviously this had a big impact on both these actors. And then, if I'm not mistaken, I think Paul Newman, didn't he name his one of his nonprofit foundations, The Kid, the Like Hole in the Wall Gang or something?
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Cullen
Yeah. So yeah, there was something along those lines and.
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Clark
Yeah, I think he it was his series of camps. I think that he started for underprivileged children and I think it might have been tied in with his Newman's Own. You know, he donated they donate all of profits from the Newman's Own line of salad dressings and other things. So, yeah, I mean, clearly.
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Cullen
Which is a little bit ironic to tidbit little fun fact. Yeah. The real Butch Cassidy gang was actually called The Wild Bunch, and they just operated out of Hole in the Wall. Wyoming, right? They weren't actually called the Hole in the Wall gang. They were actually called the Wild Bunch, which is, of course, another famous late sixties West, right?
00:03:23:18 - 00:03:44:09
Clark
PECKINPAH Yeah. And I think if I if I'm not mistaken, I think that this production was aware of the other production. Yeah. Peckinpah's film. And I think there was some concern they were afraid that they were going to be named the same. Or they might. Yeah, there was, there was some, some concern there. So, so yeah, definitely. But so so clearly a big film for these two actors.
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Clark
Now, of course, Newman had been a star for, you know, years before this film. And like you said, Robert Redford became a star in part because of this film. But in 69, I mean, it was the it was the top grossing film released that year.
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Cullen
Well over 100 million, which.
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Clark
Was huge for back then.
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Cullen
Now only on a $6 million budget to.
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Clark
I know. I mean, it's insane to me, first of all, that you look and you see what $6 million could buy back there. Now, clearly, of course, you know, inflation, I don't know, 6 million. I'm going to take a wild guess. Maybe that's 30 million today. Back in 69 numbers, I'm not sure. But still amazing that you could do so much with that amount of money back then.
00:04:24:12 - 00:04:33:02
Clark
And it actually was critically success. Now, there were some kind of split reviews, but the Academy loved the film.
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Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
Yeah. How many I think.
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Cullen
Is very kind. It was very like, you know, culturally I think most audiences.
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Clark
Big cultural.
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Cullen
Audience reviews. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty obvious why this is also my favorite movie as well, because, you know, it's got it's it's got my favorite one of my favorite writers, William Goldman, favorite actor, Paul Newman.
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Clark
Okay.
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Cullen
Cinematographer Conrado Hall Isle or Connie Hall.
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Clark
So it just hitting all the boxes for you.
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Cullen
Yeah. And it's a Western.
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Clark
And it's a Western, you got to know. So. So let's okay, well, let's jump right into that because, you know, one of my favorite things I always I love hearing about people stories and how they find a film. And, you know, all of us, you know, right there is not just the film itself, but it's like, how does a film meet us in our life?
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Clark
You know, what's the set? And setting the time and place, you know, has such a huge impact on what films really speak to us and what films don't. And and maybe those things change over time. So tell us a little bit about your story with this film and how it kind of came to hold this premiere spot in your mind?
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Cullen
I think a big part of it was I was seven when I first saw it and my dad showed it to me. And and I think like just upon viewing it, I think I was really just kind of like enthralled by the the lightness of it and the the humor in it. And yeah, now I think contemporary to me it felt then and that it was, again, you know, being seven years old, you can't really contextualize these things.
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Cullen
Like it's not like I was sitting there doing an analysis movie, but, but there was like a big element to it of just it felt like, you know, two friends, like having fun. And it really I mean, even so, like, you know, as a kid, I went out to the Rocky Mountains a lot and hiked and climbed and would play in the woods with friends.
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Cullen
And and there's like a lot of moments in this movie that really just feel like it's Butch and Sundance, like running up and down a mountain and just running through some woods. And it just kind of it's it really it feels so like.
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Clark
So which one were you when you were a kid? Which one?
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Cullen
Butch I was always butch. You were always.
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Clark
Butch.
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Cullen
Okay, okay. But I there was always this element to it that just felt very, very real and sort of almost accessible from like, a level of, of, like, playtime, like. And I always like Star Wars as a kid, too. But of course, it's more difficult to pretend you're on Hoth than have like, 88 is coming at you than it is to be Butch and Sundance running through a forest.
00:07:02:18 - 00:07:14:21
Cullen
And so there is yeah, there was a huge element of it that sparked like my imagination. I think, as I grew up too. And I always like westerns. Like even before I'd seen this, I was always really into, yeah, you know, the Leone westerns and.
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Clark
You and your dad watched a lot of Westerns together, right? Yeah. Yeah. Same with me. Yeah.
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Cullen
So there was a huge, like, love of that. And this one, I think was also a big thing of it was it felt so different. Like it really doesn't feel like a typical Western. You don't have the annual Morricone score, you don't have, you know, there's zooms in this movie, but there aren't a ton of those like typical spaghetti Western crash zooms, right?
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Cullen
It's not, as I would say, pessimistic as a lot of those movies are either. It's it's I mean, not that it's necessarily as you know it's it's very but it's yeah, yeah. It's not necessarily like the movie is not grim for for the grand majority of it. And so I think that that was a huge part of it.
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Cullen
And remember, like even again, as I got older and I when I remember when Red Dead Redemption, the first game came out that this movie impacted me so much that there was a point when I remember playing the online add on of that game. It was like the just the multiplayer, which was just the whole map. It was just a free realm.
00:08:13:09 - 00:08:31:09
Cullen
There wasn't much to do, but you basically just went online and could play with other people. And you know, there was like missions you could do. And I remember at one point this player was just chasing me across the map like super far away. I never saw him, but I could like watch his little dot on the map just fall when my trail and we went all over and I never saw him.
00:08:31:09 - 00:08:44:16
Cullen
But like, there would be a point where I'd be standing in a meadow or something and shots would ring out from the distance. And it felt like, I just remember this again. This movie just had such an impact. I was like, This is like Butch and Sundance. I'm being chased across by this, this distant, you know, malevolent force that's coming after me.
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Cullen
So throughout my entire childhood and again up into my career, you know, I made a I made a Western a few decades, two or three years ago now, that was directly directly inspired by this movie. You know, every single facet of that movie was pulled from Butch Cassidy, the Sundance Kid. I did kind of an extensive research on the cinematography, and so there's a huge amount of influence.
00:09:08:08 - 00:09:46:09
Cullen
This movie's had on me and even like beyond its genre. Yeah, a ton of the things that I've written have, if not directly, like grabbed things from this film, have very much been inspired by just the tone, the way that that the characters interact, the banter between Butch and Sundance, the the camerawork, you know, I pull so much from just like the way the camera moves and reveals information in this movie that even, again, in contemporary settings, in the feature that I'm doing this summer, there are certainly shots in there that are directly linked to Butch and Sundance.
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Clark
So I just want to make sure I'm understanding then, because just in case it's not clear. So you kind of like this film, just That's okay.
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Cullen
Yeah, Well, that's you know, I like I actually I like Butch Cassidy, but I prefer the sequel, the Sundance Kid. And I think it's funny that they're always packaged together as kind of a duo movie, so.
00:10:04:01 - 00:10:07:09
Clark
But I'm funny. That's yeah, that's so. So my joke.
00:10:07:09 - 00:10:07:19
Cullen
Of the day.
00:10:07:23 - 00:10:13:21
Clark
And went so did you did you watch this like on TV? Was it like like no I think I.
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Cullen
Actually remember exactly the so my dad came home with a like triple set of movies. It was this.
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Clark
On VHS tape. Yeah.
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Cullen
I think it was. Yeah, I think I have the Blu ray now, but I think the original set we had was VHS. So it was this. It was a bridge too far and it was the Dirty Dozen.
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Clark
Or was it DVD because you're young enough that I guess. Well, how old? How?
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Cullen
Well, when I was seven, it was set when I was seven would have been I would have what I would have been 25.
00:10:41:09 - 00:10:43:01
Clark
So that definitely could have been DVD.
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Cullen
Could have been I think I can't remember if it was bought or if it was just a path that we already had. But yeah, so it was a combination. It was like, it was like a three pack of, of just movies that were Saran Wrap together basically. Yeah. This. Yeah. Bridge too far and then The Dirty Dozen, which I love those two movies as well but yeah.
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Clark
This one, your dad's got good taste.
00:11:01:17 - 00:11:08:12
Cullen
Really stuck out to me. Yeah, this one was very much the kind of the big one for me.
00:11:08:12 - 00:11:34:18
Clark
I love how that like to me that's so fascinating in, you know, we have not yet covered a film. I mean, Mad Max and Redway are very close as far as my relationship to them, you know, I mean, similar to your relationship to this film, but I but I don't think we've hit on exactly yet the film. That would be the parallel for me as this is to you.
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Clark
Yeah. Mean, it'll be fun when we do that, but I just it really is. I, I'm always mesmerized by and just really interested in how that works. Like how you know what this magic. I feel like it's such a magical thing that takes place between the film and all of the work that's gone into this film and the vision of the director and, you know, the performances and the cinematography and the writing.
00:11:57:05 - 00:12:05:19
Clark
I mean, it takes hundreds, if not thousands of people nowadays to put together a film, and it's such a crap shoot as to whether it's going to speak to.
00:12:05:19 - 00:12:09:06
Cullen
You or your show. I mean, you're throwing stuff at the wall and you're just throwing.
00:12:09:06 - 00:12:26:13
Clark
It at the end. It's just it's so I mean, it's that's the thing. That's the dream. I mean, that any anybody who's ever worked on a film, anybody who's ever been a part of some kind of creative endeavor, I mean, this you are describing what the highest possible. Yes. The best possible outcome would ever be.
00:12:26:19 - 00:12:46:13
Cullen
But I think it's so funny, too, because there's a lot of choices in this movie, which we'll get into later that aren't typical like that were probably very risky choices, very risky even just down to casting, right. Like I think the original cast for or the original choice for Sundance was Steve McQueen and Steve McQueen. And right now, Paul Newman, like, didn't get along and couldn't agree on Redford.
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Cullen
It was.
00:12:46:19 - 00:12:48:20
Clark
Mostly unknown. Mostly. Exactly.
00:12:49:03 - 00:13:07:11
Cullen
And Newman knew Redford and basically said, let's like, this guy's really good. I promise you he'll be good. And that he basically put his own name on the line to get Redford in it. And I think it's also funny because again, I felt like as a really young kid, I remember, you know, I would go to I was in like a ski club as a kid, like a ski, you know, learning competition.
00:13:07:11 - 00:13:09:13
Cullen
I remember that. The race, this guy wait.
00:13:09:13 - 00:13:10:22
Clark
It wasn't it wasn't hockey.
00:13:11:15 - 00:13:13:03
Cullen
I did do hockey as well, but I.
00:13:13:03 - 00:13:17:00
Clark
Would have to say, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
00:13:17:11 - 00:13:34:12
Cullen
Yeah, I'm going to be kicked out of the country. But I remember this older guy, probably in his sixties when we were talking about movies. One day we were on we were on the bus going to one of the ski hills and asked me like, what my favorite movie was, because I think it just something came up. I was really nine at the time.
00:13:34:18 - 00:13:51:05
Cullen
Yeah. And I said this and he was like you. I was like nine years old and totally surprised. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And again, it's one of those things that every time I watch this movie, I probably watch it once every few years, maybe once every two or so years. Yeah. And every time I do, I always it's again, it's like, am I going to see more flaws in at this time?
00:13:51:05 - 00:13:52:05
Cullen
Is it going to kind of like. No.
00:13:52:06 - 00:13:53:07
Clark
And it's held up well down.
00:13:53:08 - 00:14:18:15
Cullen
Yeah. No, it's always held up. It doesn't. I think a big part of that is that it's not again, super simple story, not super long. It doesn't overstay its welcome like right when things kind of get normal in this like in the context of story. Right. When you kind of get into the norm of things, things switch. And I think that that's a really big part of the movie is that like you've got this you know, the movie opens, of course, and the dynamic of the gang and that they're robbing this train And the what?
00:14:18:15 - 00:14:31:05
Cullen
The first train robbery, of course, is successful and then the second is not. And so it's like, right when you get this dynamic of, okay, here's how the gang operates, we switch it up. Now they're on the run. And then right when you get kind of used to them being on the run, okay, now they're in Bolivia, right?
00:14:31:07 - 00:14:33:15
Cullen
And they're doing that. And then right when they get to Bolivia and now.
00:14:33:15 - 00:14:36:11
Clark
There's a montage, now there's like a music video now.
00:14:36:11 - 00:14:45:12
Cullen
So I think that it's just the way that the story keeps moving forward. I think is really a testament to like Goldman's script and how good how good it is. And of course, Goldman went on to write some.
00:14:45:12 - 00:14:47:10
Clark
Fantastic movies, except.
00:14:47:16 - 00:15:08:22
Cullen
Yeah, but it just to me again and just, you know, for a brief comparison, I think one of the things that I find with a lot of movies from this era is that there's always points that kind of there's like dips. And so I was watching, for example, a few of the Pink Panther movies, the Peter Sellers, Pink Panther movie, Great Day, directed by Blake Edwards.
00:15:08:22 - 00:15:25:13
Cullen
And as good as those are, and as much as I like, remember watching them as a kid and thinking that they're really funny. There's always moments in those movies where you're just kind of like, you know, let's move it on, right? Kind of swapping. And and this again, this movie has none of those for me, like the stock.
00:15:25:17 - 00:15:39:20
Cullen
It moves forward. It it doesn't take its time or too much time on anything. And, you know, not even to mention again, which will get into the beautiful imagery and cinematography done by Conrad Hall and so, yeah, I think that's okay. Okay.
00:15:40:04 - 00:15:40:22
Clark
That's awesome.
00:15:40:22 - 00:15:42:01
Cullen
I mean, it's five out of ten.
00:15:42:07 - 00:15:58:17
Clark
I yeah, I well, that's like I said it's that's the dream I anybody who ever makes anything this is the kind of this is what you hope for it to have this. Yes. Even with one person. That's fantastic. I mean for me I boy, I'm like to follow your, you know, story on how you came to this film.
00:15:58:17 - 00:16:15:09
Clark
Mine is nowhere near that. I honestly can't even remember how old I was when I first saw the film, but I was not young, although I also very much like Westerns and I grew up watching Westerns with my father as well. It was kind of a bonding thing for me. I was much more kind of focused on spaghetti westerns.
00:16:16:03 - 00:16:35:07
Clark
I don't ever recall actually having seen this film with my father or, you know, as a young kid. And honestly, it probably wasn't until I was in my twenties that I just that I saw this film on my own as I was going through, you know, probably it was probably something like I was going through Paul Newman's, you know, so my film.
00:16:35:11 - 00:16:59:08
Clark
And so this was one I hadn't seen. And so, you know, I rented it, you know, or something. That's probably the case. But I did not have the, the same extent of, you know, the same type of reaction that you did to it. So this will be interesting to kind of compare and contrast. And I may have some different opinions or different thoughts about how it was an impacted on some things, but so that'll be interesting.
00:16:59:08 - 00:17:13:06
Clark
But yeah, for me it did not hold the same. It didn't captivate me as much. A lot of things stood out to me as being fascinating, interesting. Some things confusing, some things a little. Hmm, that's an interesting choice. But yeah.
00:17:13:06 - 00:17:13:10
Cullen
I mean.
00:17:13:15 - 00:17:38:07
Clark
You know. Yeah, definitely. Definitely a movie. I enjoyed watching. Definitely a movie that, you know, that. That I'm happy that I saw. And I. I hadn't seen it in a long time. So watching it now in preparation for this was the first time I'd seen it in quite a while, and I definitely enjoyed watching it. So yeah, I mean, let's talk a little bit then after since we've kind of covered our personal, you know, how we kind of came to the films personally.
00:17:38:14 - 00:17:51:18
Clark
Let's talk a little bit about the context. Let's try to put this film into the context of, you know, what was happening in 1969 in cinema and especially American cinema. And I think the fact that it's a Western has some importance and.
00:17:51:19 - 00:18:02:01
Cullen
Well, I think that's a really interesting point that you made too, about that you were into Westerns and that but you just don't really recall seeing this one because I wouldn't really say that this is ever like grouped in with other westerns.
00:18:02:03 - 00:18:02:16
Clark
Agreed.
00:18:03:02 - 00:18:21:15
Cullen
That it's it's because it doesn't, you know, other than the fact that it takes place in the West, it doesn't other you know, there's not really much that feels like a Western. There's not really there's, of course, like a you know, there's the gunfight at the end of it. There's no I think that's really a part from like three other instances of guns being fired.
00:18:21:15 - 00:18:25:21
Cullen
There's no showdowns. There's no right, you know, duel at dawn.
00:18:25:21 - 00:18:32:07
Clark
There's no I mean, it's definitely not a John Wayne or like John Ford or ever. You know, it's not.
00:18:32:07 - 00:18:34:08
Cullen
Not about like the frontier and, you know.
00:18:34:17 - 00:18:47:13
Clark
It's not like this, you know, And that's important to know, too. You know, I think that, you know, Westerns were historically the most popular and successful genre film in America for the longest time.
00:18:47:13 - 00:18:47:21
Cullen
Yes.
00:18:48:02 - 00:19:17:11
Clark
Now, by the time we get to 1969, that's no longer becoming the case. You have, you know, 50 years turn into the sixties and we have a significant cultural changes going on in the country. And that's mirrored in the popularity of what types of films, you know. And so this film is at an interesting it's like an interesting crossroad where, you know, like you said, it's not really a Western, but yet it definitely like on face value, kind of looks like a Western.
00:19:17:11 - 00:19:39:19
Clark
You have horses, you have the Western landscape, you have some shootouts, but in tone, in story, in execution, in music, you have something that does not look like a Western at all. So and you know, and I wonder if that might have confused or kind of agitated some critics at the time. Because, you know, if you go back and you look at Ebert especially.
00:19:40:06 - 00:19:51:09
Clark
Right. If you look at if you look at, you know, some critics really enjoyed it, of course, but a lot of people were split and other people were like, I don't get you know, what was this? What what's raindrops keep falling on my head doing in this movie? Yeah, but you know what?
00:19:51:10 - 00:20:16:04
Cullen
And I think that that's the thing is it very much to me in more ways than one is aware of the fact that the Western is going out of fashion. And I think that I almost to me, that's what the movie is about, that it's about the fall of the Wild West. It's about civilization encroaching on these gangs and which I think, again, is the reason why something like Red Dead Redemption and Red Dead Redemption two, which is about the fall of the Wild West and about civilization.
00:20:16:04 - 00:20:35:06
Cullen
So, so like liberally takes from this movie is because, you know, to me, again, it's it's almost like a metaphor for the Western genre that yeah, we've got that scene when they're talking to the sheriff that they kind of are friendly with and he says, you guys are done. You're your age is over. Yeah, you're you're dead, you're going to die and it's going to be bloody.
00:20:35:06 - 00:20:59:09
Cullen
And the only thing you can do is choose where which of course, is true. But I think to me that that almost is like the filmmakers saying that about the Western genre, that it's the and, and one of the things that I always like about exploring Westerns when I teach a class and do a lesson on Westerns, is that again, at the beginning of cinema, the advent of cinema Westerns were contemporary, Westerns were not period pieces.
00:20:59:09 - 00:21:26:23
Cullen
They were actually, you know, the Great Train robbery, that 15 minute silent film was that was occurring at the time. If you went out west, if you went out to Utah, California, Oregon, that was what was going on. And so I think it's really neat that it's a genre that grew up with cinema and that went from being a contemporary piece of kind of adventure from, you know, the frontier to now the period piece.
00:21:26:23 - 00:21:47:19
Cullen
And so you get to Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and you kind of realize that, Oh yeah, the conventions that we're used to in Westerns are, you know, whether it's John Ford's Westerns with John Wayne and the big vistas in the frontier and the idea of this, this, you know, positive push of civilization out, where now it's about like the second wave of civilization.
00:21:47:19 - 00:22:07:01
Cullen
And that usually means law and order, right? And so you're losing the element of rules, just structure, civilization, bureaucracy. Exactly. You're getting rules, structure, you know, on a much larger scale, like just capitalist enterprise is coming out. So and that's a big part of this is that it's not the law that goes after Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid.
00:22:07:01 - 00:22:10:04
Cullen
It's a posse formed by a businessman who they keep robbing.
00:22:10:04 - 00:22:53:22
Clark
Yeah, And which is an interesting point to not take, not to get necessarily too far off on this. But it's not that crime goes away. It's that the type, the type of criminal that's allowed to exist changes. It changes it changes from a a personal, you know, criminal like the the small gangs or individuals who are robbing banks or train to inc criminals, you know, people who now own land, own large companies, have lots of resources and they're able to kind of wrap up their criminal enterprises or, you know, things that are kind of on the line of criminal or not criminal, you know, like putting the law into your own hands and hiring a
00:22:53:22 - 00:23:31:16
Clark
posse of people to go kill somebody who's robbed you. It was probably not necessarily straight, straight, legal, you know, But but it's the it's like the incorporation. It's the, like, enveloping of crime into a bureaucracy that that I think kind of is part of this that takes place. But yeah and I think that it's you know and they did such a great job in this film of keeping that posse, you know, for half the film basically are, you know, the main characters are being chased by this posse by keeping them nameless and faceless and keeping them kind of they're almost you know, it's almost like these.
00:23:31:16 - 00:23:33:02
Cullen
Representative, almost like.
00:23:33:02 - 00:23:42:04
Clark
That like the Terminator or so many other films where it's it's it's an inevitability that is chasing you. And that's, of course, exactly what's happening in this film.
00:23:42:04 - 00:24:00:07
Cullen
It's the one that's why I love it, because to me is the movie as a whole is about the death of the Wild West. Yeah, it's so. And I think which is really interesting because to me the Wild Bunch is very similar, but it just takes a different approach to that. The Wild Bunch to me is a movie that's about the death of the Wild West due to violence and do.
00:24:00:08 - 00:24:18:07
Clark
Yeah, hopefully we can. It'll be fun to do that one at another in a later episode. Yeah, because there's a lot to to compare and contrast there. And since westerns are we both love Westerns? Maybe we'll do a few more Westerns here over the course of our episodes. So yeah, I mean, so, you know, context to I mean, we have, you know, Easy Rider was released the same year.
00:24:18:07 - 00:24:42:21
Clark
We've got New Hollywood and we've talked a little bit about new Hollywood. You know, new Hollywood is coming into its own and that's changing things up a lot. And so, yeah, this is interesting. This film does kind of sit in it. And I think even, you know, you have Paul Newman, who was a star of the earlier Hollywood system, who is, you know, at this traditionally, you know, attractive, handsome man.
00:24:43:10 - 00:24:57:15
Clark
He's already established. You have Redford coming in who is not. So establish, but who is kind of this younger, you know, kind of sidekick. It's it's it's interesting that the film straddles a unique time in American cinema.
00:24:57:15 - 00:25:26:13
Cullen
Yeah. And I mean again even down to so like we talk about the, you know, new Hollywood movement the big cinematographers in that age were Conrad Hall, Gordon Willis, Right. Vittorio Storaro Laszlo Kovacs, who did Easy Rider Rating or Easy Rider, Right. And so I think it's really interesting, again, that you're getting out of this very formal, you know, the Western genre, which was typically seen as sort of more of the formal, again.
00:25:26:13 - 00:25:29:15
Cullen
John Ford Very workman directors and things like that very.
00:25:29:15 - 00:25:30:01
Clark
Much, yeah.
00:25:30:18 - 00:25:38:03
Cullen
Is now suddenly, you know, shot on this really dirtied up film stock by Conrad Hall.
00:25:38:03 - 00:26:02:00
Clark
Yeah. So let's talk about Yeah, let's talk about it. I mean this is a huge part of this film. I mean, you know, I mean, it's obviously Conrad Hall is considered widely to be one of the best, you know, greatest cinematographers to ever you know, to ever light a scene, to ever work in film. And I think it's like I mean, I don't know how many Academy Awards has he won?
00:26:02:00 - 00:26:04:04
Clark
I think three. I'm not mistaken. Yes.
00:26:04:15 - 00:26:08:14
Cullen
He won for this. He won for, I think American Beauty.
00:26:08:20 - 00:26:12:20
Clark
Yes, American Beauty. And his third one, I can't remember.
00:26:12:22 - 00:26:13:20
Cullen
Was it in Cold Blood.
00:26:14:00 - 00:26:15:00
Clark
Road to Perdition.
00:26:15:00 - 00:26:16:02
Cullen
Road Warrior? Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah.
00:26:16:09 - 00:26:17:06
Clark
In 2010.
00:26:17:06 - 00:26:17:20
Cullen
Mendez Yeah.
00:26:18:12 - 00:26:21:16
Clark
So and nominated something like which is an amazing looking movie.
00:26:21:16 - 00:26:35:00
Cullen
That movie is I mean, even that movie, the fact that movie came out in 2002 and looks yeah, not that things were bad doesn't do but just it looks it's a it's a league above anything else that really came out around that time. Yeah.
00:26:35:00 - 00:26:57:16
Clark
Nominated for ten but yeah so let's talk Yeah let's talk about it because you know it's one of the it was it's so immediately obvious. I mean it's you know even if you are not a a kind of, you know, a film nerd or a, you know, a connoisseur, I mean, the cinematography really does have a personality. Everything from, you know, film stock to exposure to they use it in a lens usage and zooms.
00:26:57:21 - 00:26:58:12
Clark
I mean, yeah.
00:26:58:12 - 00:27:01:21
Cullen
Really new Panavision zooms. It was like 50 to 500 millimeter.
00:27:02:07 - 00:27:09:19
Clark
Right? I mean, the way that he composes and recompose his shots. Yeah. With movement and with Zoom.
00:27:10:20 - 00:27:24:23
Cullen
And he famously liked to only shoot on longer lenses, I think as I said, like it was a great was kind of his minimum. And because of that the camera's always further away from the action than you might typically expect, right? It's not up in the face of it. It's, it's.
00:27:25:06 - 00:27:45:16
Clark
This is something Yeah I know that you so you had spent a lot of time studying this. So this will be kind of interesting because we'll be able to get into a little bit of the nitty gritty of this, maybe more than usual. So I don't know what when I was watching, you know, like now we have to speak a little bit to I think, you know, the only transfer that I'm aware of is an old Blu ray transfer that I said 27 or 28.
00:27:45:23 - 00:27:51:18
Clark
I don't know if the digital version that might be available on iTunes or somewhere else is the same or different idea because.
00:27:51:18 - 00:27:54:22
Cullen
There's a 4K version. But I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if just an upscale.
00:27:54:22 - 00:27:59:09
Clark
There's no physical there's no physical media released in the United States for a 4K version.
00:27:59:09 - 00:28:00:19
Cullen
Yeah, it's only online. Yeah, the.
00:28:00:19 - 00:28:21:07
Clark
Transfer was tough. The transfer I had was was clearly not a lot of love was put into this, which is a shame. It's this film is definitely deserving of it. But it was dirty. There's damage on the negative as you can see. There's color banding and clipping it and it's a notoriously not great watch.
00:28:21:15 - 00:28:49:12
Cullen
And it's really I mean, that shows how important it is to do good transfers because one of the things that this movie is really noted for in that Colorado Hall did intentionally was really overexpose those right. And film famously handles overexposed highlights beautifully. In fact, I would say that overexposed film has a really, really beautiful, gorgeous look to it that even digital doesn't simply because digital has, you know, a much lower highlight ceiling, at least earlier digital technology.
00:28:49:15 - 00:29:15:15
Cullen
It's getting there now. But but film always just handles highlights really, really beautifully, especially overexposed highlights. So you're going from moments where the sky is overexposed and you can basically all you can do is imagine how good it would look on a 35 millimeter print. Yeah, but because it was, you know, this 27 transfer sort of before I just lose the scanning material, it's like you can see the highlight clipping and things like that.
00:29:15:18 - 00:29:32:23
Cullen
And of course, that's nothing against the movie because it's not like Carnegie Hall was dead by then. And so it's not like he could have overseen it or anything, but I just think it's a shame. I think it's like, you know, a movie like this that, you know, again, has a lot of cultural relevance. Certainly is.
00:29:33:10 - 00:29:37:18
Clark
Certainly yeah. Deserves a greater we get Yeah. And I could go on and on about the travel.
00:29:37:18 - 00:29:40:05
Cullen
Maybe we'll be the change for that podcast.
00:29:40:05 - 00:29:43:23
Clark
Well I don't know who, I forget who owns it, but whoever owns this office.
00:29:43:23 - 00:29:44:18
Cullen
Well Disney now.
00:29:44:22 - 00:29:53:05
Clark
Disney now Disney. So, so that so it's, it's actually unlikely then I highly doubt that they will ever see a physical release, sadly. But perhaps.
00:29:53:06 - 00:29:53:23
Cullen
A very sad.
00:29:54:06 - 00:30:20:15
Clark
Wristband and and and remastered for 4K delivery online at least. But so let's get back to that. Yeah I mean so some interesting choices that he makes, right? So I mean as far as I can understand, overexposed most of the outdoor stuff by two, even three stops. Yeah. And you know, you get this I mean, I almost feel, you know, in trying to imagine in my mind what this would look like without the limitations of the Blu ray.
00:30:20:15 - 00:30:36:11
Clark
But I mean, I feel like a heat. Like I really get a sense of of kind of I mean, the landscape seems to almost be even more oppressive because it takes some of the color out of the sky. Right. And it gives it this like, I don't know, is it? But it feels hot. Yeah.
00:30:36:12 - 00:31:00:00
Cullen
I mean, I think I think the thing is, too, when when it's like you look at the sweat on people's faces, glares more. Yeah. And so when they're dirty, when they've got dust on them, it's so much more apparent that they've got like grittiness and grime on their face and, and just even, you know, they put filters, they put, you know, some people call them low cons, but, you know, basically glare filters on on pretty much all the outdoor shots.
00:31:00:00 - 00:31:23:19
Cullen
The sky is super, super washed out as well. Yes. Really. You know, of course, again, when you overexpose a film, it loses saturation. So it's really, you know, not super saturated, but very glowy. There are a lot of like glows in the highlights and very soft, especially because those early anamorphic as well. I was right the very soft zooms that you get Exactly.
00:31:23:19 - 00:31:35:01
Cullen
You get this it's not like a beautiful glow. And I would say the only moments in this movie that are really shot, that look, you know, intentionally beautified are the raindrops keep falling on your head.
00:31:35:13 - 00:31:36:03
Clark
Yeah.
00:31:36:08 - 00:31:44:17
Cullen
Like romanticize again very much. It looks like a almost more music video than not in a negative way. I actually I mean, I like that. I know that's a hot topic and you.
00:31:44:17 - 00:31:56:19
Clark
Really get you really get a golden sun in that. There's a there's a there's a warmth to the light in that moment that you actually don't see anywhere throughout amid the the sun is hot in New York.
00:31:56:19 - 00:31:59:13
Cullen
Yeah it feels like sweaty this movie. Yeah like it's.
00:31:59:13 - 00:32:04:10
Clark
Weird. You're right. You know, it's the raindrop scene is the only time that you have this warmth that.
00:32:04:10 - 00:32:20:07
Cullen
Yeah, in this it feels breezy sort of more. Yeah, but whereas the restless like it's I think this is a it's an interesting movie because it's again this is such a specific thing but like you feel almost how hot the actors must be in their costumes and that's what I'm saying and stuff like that. And it's.
00:32:20:11 - 00:32:48:10
Clark
And especially through the chase scenes where, yes, scrambling over rocks and you've got this this gritty realism to the landscape and the sun. I mean, even the sun is chase right? It's like against them. It's you've got the oppression of the of the landscape. It feels like it's not welcome now. It's beautiful, but it's not welcoming. Let's talk to this because this is something that you're going to notice immediately in this film is the very, very, very wide usage of zooms.
00:32:48:10 - 00:32:51:22
Cullen
Yes. Yeah. And not Crash is not like the typical only a couple.
00:32:51:23 - 00:33:16:10
Clark
Yeah, only in a couple of moments. But we've got a lot of of a lot of recompose Right. Of slow zooms. We have a lot of recomposition with zooms. So we'd have a scene as framed moves to another framing as the scene moves as opposed to cut in which is what we'd often do today. You would also you'd often have a cut in of the setup and but, but you really don't have that.
00:33:16:10 - 00:33:26:18
Clark
I was actually surprised at the uses of zooms and you know since zooms were not you know I think what the ingenue came out in like 63 I.
00:33:26:18 - 00:33:28:09
Cullen
Think yeah the first big.
00:33:28:09 - 00:33:38:08
Clark
One Yeah. And that's that kind of began the usage of zooms in film. It didn't even really hardly happened much before then. This I think was a Panavision 50 to 500.
00:33:38:08 - 00:33:45:02
Cullen
Yeah. And they and especially I mean because zoom anamorphic zooms especially were such a hard thing to nail. They were very.
00:33:45:02 - 00:33:45:07
Clark
Hard.
00:33:45:07 - 00:33:47:10
Cullen
Difficult like engineering wise.
00:33:47:10 - 00:33:48:00
Clark
To like.
00:33:48:00 - 00:34:09:15
Cullen
That. It was so difficult to get that to work because of all the moving parts and that if you move try to get different elements, then it'll, it'll stretch differently. So, so you can definitely tell that there's there's drawbacks to using, you know, they're not super fast either. You don't really get the super shallow depth of field, which is something that Conrad Hall loves, that he likes really shallow depth of fields.
00:34:09:15 - 00:34:41:00
Cullen
And he says, you know, he says that he doesn't like everything to be in focus and that he likes to correct pinpoint moments and so we have very, you know, just just the way that the zooms work, I I'm a huge fan of it. Again, it was something that I really used for the Western that I did, which is just this again, this idea that it's you're not necessarily like pushing it on the audience, that this is what's important, but you're rather letting there's this there's there's a you know, there's a really fundamental difference, I think, between crash zooming in on something and slow zooming in on something.
00:34:41:06 - 00:34:56:04
Clark
And a big difference between what a modern film would. Yes, you would be, darling. You'd be using ships, cranes, and it's a very different feeling. I can imagine that this helped their setups. The speed at which they could shoot must have been. I mean.
00:34:56:10 - 00:35:14:11
Cullen
I someone who basically grabbed that entirely from the production. Very good and also looks great that you you you set the tripod down. Yeah. It's not on a dollar you don't move it. All you do is pan. Yeah. You just follow the action. But, and it's in, it's so simple but I think that it's something that so many people overlook.
00:35:14:17 - 00:35:20:18
Cullen
What they really because they want they want, you know, this dynamic camera to go in and out of the action or zooms.
00:35:20:18 - 00:35:37:04
Clark
Rooms have almost been lost in the grammar of film today. I think, you know, it's I can't tell you how many people I talked to, fellow filmmakers, people I respect, but I mean, and I think it's changing maybe a tiny little bit, but, you know, it was like how dare you put a zoom on a cinema camera like that?
00:35:37:10 - 00:35:44:08
Clark
I mean, that was just, no, I shoot primes and I can't anybody shoots, zooms like, oh my gosh, this is a which.
00:35:44:08 - 00:35:46:11
Cullen
Is, as you know I'm a huge proponent of zooms.
00:35:46:11 - 00:35:55:12
Clark
I and that's why I love zooms and my love for zooms started more in documentary and not so much you know changing focal leaks during a mid.
00:35:55:12 - 00:35:55:21
Cullen
Shot.
00:35:55:21 - 00:36:09:20
Clark
Yeah but having that flexibility and that immediacy to reframe instantly to have that flexibility zooms have gotten so so good. I mean, you can find very fast zooms, very sharp zooms in today and.
00:36:09:20 - 00:36:11:03
Cullen
The prices are coming down too.
00:36:11:03 - 00:36:31:06
Clark
Yeah, prices are coming down. But I was just going to say I'm a fan and I'm a fan and I actually love seeing zooms from time to time in film and a used as part of the grammar of film. And I don't know that I've ever seen a film that used zooms grammatically the way this film, to the extent to which this film uses it.
00:36:32:05 - 00:36:40:18
Clark
So I highly recommend people, if you're interested in seeing the zoom used in a way that most films just would never, ever approach Zoom, check this film out.
00:36:41:11 - 00:37:01:23
Cullen
Even the you know, I think what's so interesting to you is that you get so the movie, of course, the opening credits, the film, ah, it's it's silent. It's a silent film. It's like it's almost like a silent hearing. It was actually directed by, I think, the second unit director that's Cram, who was a real silent filmmaker, which I think is really cool, that that's why I kind of got back into his his game.
00:37:01:23 - 00:37:19:11
Cullen
And so it doesn't start like, it's like almost like a little parody thing of Butch and Sundance and it doesn't star Robert Redford or Newman. It's I think it's almost supposed to be Faking is like archival footage. I think some and and then you pull out of that so it's all in sepia pull out of that and then we're in the movie.
00:37:19:11 - 00:37:23:02
Cullen
It's widescreen, but we're still in sepia or sepia or it's now and.
00:37:23:08 - 00:37:24:02
Clark
I know what you're saying.
00:37:24:02 - 00:37:43:00
Cullen
The first shot is this zoom in on a window of a reflection. And then I think that what they must have done is used a polarizing filter to then shift the the reflection to Paul Newman staring through the window. Right. And again, all in one shot. Then he walks out of that door, zoom out, show this town, then zoom back in as he walks over the bank.
00:37:43:00 - 00:37:46:07
Clark
And it's we have like three setups in one shot.
00:37:46:17 - 00:37:54:18
Cullen
And it's the only Westerner I think I've ever seen where our main character, who's a bank robber in the first scene, walks into a bank and doesn't Robert, which I think is great.
00:37:54:19 - 00:38:08:11
Clark
Also, can I just say that that whole first setup with with basically the entire story being told with inserts is fantastic? Yes. As such an excellent efficiency of story of visual storytelling. I love it.
00:38:08:16 - 00:38:17:06
Cullen
And one of my favorite lines in a movie ever, which is when he says to the bank guard, you know, what happened to your bank? It was beautiful. And people kept robbing it. Small price to pay for beauty and see.
00:38:17:06 - 00:38:43:10
Clark
And there you go. I think this speaks to I think you tie this in with the statement that you've mentioned previously about, you know, hey, it's your time has come. And I think you put these two things, these two lines together in the film, and you kind of have, I think, the theme of the film or what they're trying to kind of say, Yeah, and we lose something with civilization that you lose something with with rules and an abundance of bureaucracy.
00:38:43:10 - 00:38:58:05
Clark
And one of the things that you lose is a personality and you lose a creativity and a freedom. And, you know, it's it's it's the age old kind of, you know, equation of of what you gain or what you lose from civilization.
00:38:58:11 - 00:39:30:11
Cullen
And what what's interesting, too, is that first scene sort of goes by of which just kind of like looking at the bank kind of nonchalantly, like doesn't draw much attention to itself. It's just kind of the opening. Nothing really major happens. But I think what's what's interesting about that scene is when you go back and rewatch the movie as you realize that that's kind of it is again, speaking to the entire theme of the movie of the West being done in the West, dying, that in a normal Western, the opening scene, even in the Wild Bunch, would be our main characters were bank robbers entering a bank and robbing.
00:39:30:18 - 00:39:48:16
Cullen
And yeah, something goes wrong, but that's what they'll be the opening scene. But this movie immediately tells you that it's not that big as he goes into the bank and it's too secure for him. You know, they shut all the things. They shut the bank vault. It's like this big vault door now. And so the first thing our main character realizes is, Oh, crap, Here, the world's.
00:39:48:19 - 00:39:51:09
Clark
Closing in you. Yeah, the world is changing.
00:39:51:11 - 00:40:11:18
Cullen
It's really interesting how, you know, such a simple opening moment can and how efficient it is to that. You get that piece of information and then we immediately go over to Sundance, who again, we get this great bit about that. You kind of see how stubborn Sundance is and a great also how they both have a little bit of a sense of humor to them because it's this whole like, why don't you ask us to stay?
00:40:11:18 - 00:40:19:12
Cullen
And yeah, so well, I think it's a really brilliant opening and that it's is and the fact that it's done in sepia too is I think to me.
00:40:20:13 - 00:40:44:13
Clark
And of course the film is bookend well, actually not even just bookend it because you have the montage which kind of reproduces these old sepia photographs by, you know, kind of telling a piece of the story, you know, in New York. And before they go to South America. And then, of course, we bookend it with the the freeze frame basically fading into a sepia and.
00:40:44:13 - 00:40:45:14
Cullen
A bigger zoom out there.
00:40:45:22 - 00:41:02:12
Clark
And so it kind of it's I think it's it's cute in the way they kind of present this as being, you know, a mostly factual story. And of course, in a very, very, very general broad sense, yes, these people existed. And some of these things are generically historical. Yeah, true. But I like how they kind of present it as that.
00:41:02:12 - 00:41:25:06
Clark
It's like, you know, we're pulling this story out of history and we're kind of showing it to you close up, and then we're putting back on the shelves of history and kind of, you know, so that's kind of the sense that I get this like going from sepia to color and then back to sepia. It's like, yeah, yeah, we're we're pulling the story off the shelf, this old story, and we're kind of, you know, pulling it up to our face, clothes and observing, and then we're kind of, okay, we'll put it back, you know.
00:41:25:23 - 00:41:44:07
Cullen
Next time. Yeah. And I think what's and so real quick, I actually just a little tidbit on the cinematography that's Yeah, yeah. I just want to ask you a question. Yeah. Do you think so that that ending shot when it freeze frames and it pulls out and it shows the entire square, I always have thought and I still think that that is two shots composited.
00:41:44:14 - 00:41:45:03
Cullen
I think Well.
00:41:45:03 - 00:41:46:13
Clark
I think it has to be, yeah.
00:41:46:14 - 00:41:49:05
Cullen
Because I don't think there's any way you would get that detail.
00:41:49:06 - 00:41:50:19
Clark
Not on 35 close up.
00:41:51:03 - 00:41:56:13
Cullen
Yeah. And then. No I wouldn't be able to. Yeah. So I think, I think it's got to be a composite. That's all I wanted to say.
00:41:56:13 - 00:42:16:04
Clark
Yeah. And hey, I'd love to hear from anybody if, if you know for certain, but that would be my guess, because I don't even know if that were shot on 70. I don't know if there would be enough resolution, maybe, but I doubt it because you pull so far out. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is it's an extraordinary reveal.
00:42:16:04 - 00:42:35:06
Clark
There. I mean, you you are so tight in on the two of them and then and it's frozen. So you've got a lot of time to criticize the the image if you, you know and because we hold on it for a very long time and then yet. Right. We pull out to see the entire square or the entire arena where this battle has taken place.
00:42:35:10 - 00:42:41:00
Cullen
Yeah, not a typical glitch or difficult effect to to pull off, but I think very well.
00:42:41:00 - 00:42:41:21
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:42:41:21 - 00:43:00:18
Cullen
It's it's seamless because I think what they would have probably done because they're kind of in an archway, I think they likely would have just cut out the archway and but no, but just to kind of little quick aside because I was curious to know Yeah, it's such a famous final shot so but I think yeah, let's just maybe talk about a little bit about well music.
00:43:00:20 - 00:43:23:15
Clark
Yeah, talk about some music because I think the music is a big part of of what makes this film unique and what makes this film something quite a bit different than just your average Western, especially of this era. And it's one of the areas that that I, I'm kind of torn on personally, you know. But yeah, let's talk about it.
00:43:23:15 - 00:43:31:12
Clark
I mean, on the one end we have Burt Bacharach score. I don't even know what score I would call it almost like songs, because I don't.
00:43:32:00 - 00:43:34:04
Cullen
It's the soundtrack, more so a soundtrack.
00:43:34:04 - 00:43:37:18
Clark
It's not a score. And so I think that's a big difference because there's no music.
00:43:37:18 - 00:43:44:18
Cullen
That's a big point, is that there's no music anywhere in the film except for the opening and closing credits and the montages. Nothing else is.
00:43:44:18 - 00:43:55:03
Clark
Very, very, very different than, let's say, you know, a spaghetti western of that same era, the good, the bad, the ugly. I mean, these like just, you know, gigantic in scope scores.
00:43:55:03 - 00:43:57:19
Cullen
Yes. Like sea of gold and. Yeah, right.
00:43:57:22 - 00:44:08:03
Clark
And so it's such a difference from that. And it's you know, it's definitely not the of the era it's an across. What is it come on help me and.
00:44:08:08 - 00:44:08:22
Cullen
In it and.
00:44:09:18 - 00:44:10:12
Clark
Crowe Mystic.
00:44:10:23 - 00:44:13:22
Cullen
Mystic. Yes. There you go. I would say anarcho if.
00:44:14:08 - 00:44:15:03
Clark
That's okay so it's.
00:44:15:03 - 00:44:15:13
Cullen
Anarchy.
00:44:16:12 - 00:44:22:02
Clark
If anybody's like if anybody's you know, with us this many episodes in, then they'll forgive us for that.
00:44:22:10 - 00:44:23:20
Cullen
We're trying. Yes. I hope so.
00:44:24:04 - 00:44:42:16
Clark
But but basically what I mean to say by that is that it's music that is so clearly not of this era. Right. It's nowhere near the era that this is taking place in. So you've got I mean, the biggest example of this is the raindrops keep Falling on my head. Yeah. And let's talk about that for a second because, I mean, this is huge.
00:44:42:16 - 00:44:48:03
Clark
The film stops, stops and has a music video in it.
00:44:48:06 - 00:44:49:00
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah.
00:44:49:03 - 00:45:06:02
Clark
Of this which is a full bike ride that Yeah. It just comes out of nowhere. You're not expecting this at all. I mean, look, I, you know, I knew about it. Of course it's famous now, but I mean, if you were watching this film at the theater for the first time ever in 1969, I'm going to imagine this is going to hit you over the head.
00:45:06:11 - 00:45:06:18
Clark
Yeah.
00:45:07:04 - 00:45:22:22
Cullen
Which I think so. I think what's funny, funny about that, I always understand when people are like, I don't love that bit or that the even the score that, you know, when people are huge, I love it. Like I love the, you know, every single part of it. I actually have the score on my phone. Yeah, that's awesome.
00:45:22:22 - 00:45:32:06
Cullen
Yeah, I think it's I think it's great. But I think the reason that I think it's great is almost because of how like, silly it is and that Yeah. You know you know Sam.
00:45:32:10 - 00:45:33:10
Clark
Very playful in.
00:45:33:10 - 00:45:56:10
Cullen
Spider-Man too pulled from it because he that there's a big montage to the raindrops in Spider-Man two. Yeah it's very similar where it just kind of pauses for this happy montage but I don't know it's something about it to me. Like I always think about it in a context of like, if the movie didn't have that scene, what would it feel like And I almost I almost think that the movie sort of needs that scene because it.
00:45:56:10 - 00:45:57:02
Clark
Would change.
00:45:57:05 - 00:46:19:19
Cullen
This final, you know, it's almost the right before things go wrong that this this happy. And of course you can do that in different ways. It doesn't have to be I mean, there's there's ways to show happiness. But I think in a way, this musical, India has a very, very heightened sense of style. Yes. That in a very interesting way that it's that I think anything else wouldn't really work.
00:46:19:19 - 00:46:20:15
Cullen
Like I think like you.
00:46:20:15 - 00:46:24:16
Clark
Well, it would be a different movie that I mean, there's no question it would be a different movie if this were in it.
00:46:24:16 - 00:46:45:02
Cullen
And in the way that you said sort of that described it as like the set, the sepia, the beginning and the end sort of seem like you're taking this this movie off the shelf and dusting it off and looking at this this old kind of, you know, tableau of of this is a story of the Wild West. And I think that it almost to me, that's why it works is because it's a tale.
00:46:45:09 - 00:46:46:02
Cullen
It's like a tale.
00:46:46:02 - 00:46:46:13
Clark
Of.
00:46:46:13 - 00:46:48:13
Cullen
Butch and Sundance. And it's so it's.
00:46:48:13 - 00:46:49:11
Clark
Like a mythology.
00:46:49:11 - 00:46:50:02
Cullen
That says it's like a.
00:46:50:02 - 00:46:50:20
Clark
Fairy tale.
00:46:50:20 - 00:47:11:14
Cullen
Yeah, it's like it's like a saloon tale of like. And you would have, you know, some piano player to do it. And it very much goes along with this. Again, this, like, silent movie kind of thing where yeah, it's just it's, it's yeah, I think that it works for me because of that that it's because of the heightened sense if, if the movie was different like if this was a you know, if this was a.
00:47:12:02 - 00:47:13:22
Clark
If this were fistful of dollars and it.
00:47:14:05 - 00:47:14:13
Cullen
Certainly.
00:47:15:02 - 00:47:15:12
Clark
Was, you.
00:47:15:12 - 00:47:16:04
Cullen
Know, the.
00:47:16:19 - 00:47:17:03
Clark
Quality.
00:47:17:06 - 00:47:18:21
Cullen
Of his writing, this wouldn't make sense.
00:47:18:21 - 00:47:42:07
Clark
But I mean, there's no question, you know, that I appreciate the choice. It's not a choice as a filmmaker that I would likely make for my own film. But that's great. I mean, it and it it does feel a little odd and it kind of catches me off balance. But, you know, I so appreciate films that take risks like this and do interesting things that I mean, look, I'm always for it when I see it in a film.
00:47:42:15 - 00:47:58:22
Clark
I mean, even if the choice seems a little odd to you, I'm like, I'm glad somebody made a strong choice. You know? I mean, in the day and age of like, gosh, I just not to like, take is way off the tracks here, but G is just to see what in the world is going on in the world of modern film.
00:47:58:22 - 00:48:03:20
Clark
I watched some of the the HBO Max Snyder cut of.
00:48:03:20 - 00:48:04:23
Cullen
Whatever Justice League.
00:48:04:23 - 00:48:14:01
Clark
Yeah, Justice League And I was just like, I mean, look, I'll take a choice like this any day over these, you know, this kind of thing, this modern kind of film. I mean. Yeah.
00:48:14:08 - 00:48:25:21
Cullen
And I think it's funny, too, because it's so the version of the song that's used in the movie is you can get it, but it's different than the typical raindrops keep All in my Head. So it's slightly altered. Like there's the big kind of almost circus sounding.
00:48:25:23 - 00:48:26:15
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:48:26:16 - 00:48:34:08
Cullen
Interlude when he's doing the tricks on the bicycle. Yeah. And again, it's like moments like that, That kind of to me highlight how which.
00:48:34:08 - 00:48:35:16
Clark
By the way, I was.
00:48:35:16 - 00:48:38:11
Cullen
Impressed. Yeah, I was impressed with it. You know.
00:48:38:11 - 00:48:46:08
Clark
That Paul Newman did also I mean it's clear you can clearly see it's here, but Paul Newman did all those bike stunts except for the last one where he falls into the.
00:48:46:09 - 00:48:47:12
Cullen
Into the fence. Yeah, probably.
00:48:47:12 - 00:48:50:08
Clark
There were some like insurance issues or something there. They didn't want him to get hurt.
00:48:50:08 - 00:49:05:16
Cullen
But but I think it's very you know, it just it yeah, it feels to me like this is Butcher's and Sundance is life. But it is. It is happy, carefree, riding on a bicycle with that with my friend's girlfriend.
00:49:05:18 - 00:49:24:17
Clark
I know. Which we're going to get to in a minute. Yeah. We're going to talk about that interesting kind of trifecta of a relationship. Yeah, but but yeah, I mean, songs versus score, this musical interlude, I mean, it always, you know, when you have I mean, that's what musicals are. There are, you know, a string of these put together.
00:49:24:17 - 00:49:44:10
Clark
It's heightened. I mean any time you have a musical number in a film, it really heightens whatever that experience or moment is, right? It's kind of like that that I have to burst out into song and dance and it's almost in a way that these two are kind of I mean, they're not dancing in a traditional sense, but there is a dance going on to the music with the bicycle.
00:49:44:11 - 00:49:56:05
Clark
Yeah. And there's very much like a physicality to it. And in the same way that there would be a physicality to a dance number. So yeah, it almost it really is just like a you.
00:49:56:05 - 00:50:01:23
Cullen
Could see them like running into the ending of hair or something and totally dead people coming out of the world. Exactly.
00:50:01:23 - 00:50:19:11
Clark
And it's, and it's shot very differently like you describe. There's a warmth to that and a romanticism to the shooting that's just not in any of the rest of the film. I mean, you know, there's the playfulness of like, you know, going through like the wood slat walls. There's like such a playfulness with the cinematography and how it's shot.
00:50:19:18 - 00:50:27:14
Cullen
In the eye. Again, I thought, that's just the shot of the bull looking at him. That is also a shot that is directly in the western that I made. We got a cow.
00:50:28:06 - 00:50:28:13
Clark
That.
00:50:28:16 - 00:50:32:23
Cullen
You're going to watch where the character faces down a cow as a joke like a little.
00:50:32:23 - 00:50:45:17
Clark
No, you're going to have to. We'll have to post a link. Yeah. Your film is somewhere where people can see it. We'll have to post the link so that people can check that out. I don't think I've seen it and I would like to see it or if you've seen it is a long time ago.
00:50:45:17 - 00:50:53:10
Cullen
But but it's just funny that yeah, there's so much in the movie. I always forget how much I necessarily stole from it because that even that callback was accidental. We just we had it now.
00:50:53:11 - 00:50:58:11
Clark
And it becomes part of your psyche and then, you know, it comes out through your pores, you know, later.
00:50:58:12 - 00:50:58:22
Cullen
Yes.
00:50:58:22 - 00:51:01:13
Clark
Yeah. So let's let's talk a little bit about story.
00:51:01:15 - 00:51:19:13
Cullen
Let's talk. Yeah. One more thing I actually wanted to mention about the music as well. Okay. I just wanted to jump in and say to just to talk about the little the juxtaposition in the the South American bit that you've got. Again, there's a little bit of there's interesting bit because it's this montage of them robbing the South American banks and Bolivia.
00:51:19:20 - 00:51:27:09
Cullen
Right. And again, it's like with this like poppy, you know, almost acapella sounding. Well, there's again, not typically archipelago's instrumental.
00:51:27:17 - 00:51:28:21
Clark
Rotation, but I guess the.
00:51:28:21 - 00:51:29:05
Cullen
Loop of.
00:51:29:06 - 00:51:33:04
Clark
Vocalization. Yeah. Instead of lyrics there's like vocalizations as each.
00:51:33:12 - 00:51:45:23
Cullen
Of them of them robbing these banks. So I just I always just think again it's funny that there's this again this lighthearted juxtaposition in the music of them robbing all these banks. Right. But yeah, yeah. Let's talk about the story.
00:51:45:23 - 00:52:10:04
Clark
Let's talk about the story a little bit. I mean, not that we're going to dive into plot, but just some some important points here. I think that kind of stand out from a story perspective. I mean, you've got anti-heroes here that I think this also kind of ties it into the the the timing of this film. So you've got you know, our two main heroes are super charismatic, handsome guys.
00:52:10:04 - 00:52:31:14
Clark
They also happen to be criminals, you know, And as we move through the film, they end up killing people. And but you definitely like them. You definitely are rooting for them. You want them to win. So I think it's interesting, you know, it's you've got a couple of anti-heroes here. I think that was something that was really starting to come into popularity at this time in their.
00:52:31:14 - 00:52:33:11
Cullen
Playful banter between each other. Yeah.
00:52:33:14 - 00:52:58:01
Clark
And well, and that's huge. I mean, we can talk a little bit too about cultural impact and how the film's aged, but. Right, you've got you've got this this kind of it's a buddy film almost, if you will, in a sense. And I think that this film likely had an impact on and inspired a lot of other films where a big part of the story is this banter back and forth, the relationship between these co-leads.
00:52:58:10 - 00:53:07:01
Clark
And that could be, you know, from anything from, you know, 48 Hours or Lethal Weapon or any of the countless films.
00:53:07:02 - 00:53:28:03
Cullen
And again, a very big departure from, I think, to me, any other Western, I can't think of another one that would have a similar dynamic of the two main characters because usually they were either bigger ensemble pieces or they were kind of like the one one, you know, solo man who is silent kind of moves in and out of a very, you know, no name.
00:53:28:05 - 00:53:45:23
Cullen
So I think that it's interesting that, again, it's very much a departure from that typical way of doing Westerns. And instead you get these kind of lighthearted, nice guys again. That's what's funny, is that even though they're like robbing these trains and stuff like that, you're on their side the whole time because they're so charming. And I think that that there's even a joke made about.
00:53:45:23 - 00:53:56:08
Cullen
So David Lowery made the old man of the gun in 2018, which I was actually at the premiere of, and got to shake Robert Redford's hand, which was really cool. Did it just.
00:53:56:08 - 00:53:58:17
Clark
Turn into dust in your hand? I mean, he's wonderful.
00:53:58:17 - 00:54:18:15
Cullen
Yeah, I've kept it in the jar actually. But but that was that was his last big movie, the one that he said he was retiring for. And yeah, very much the whole marketing scheme of that movie and the guess for lack of a better term, the esthetic of that movie was very much, I think, towards Butch Cassidy, the Sundance Kid, the same font, like similar music choices.
00:54:18:20 - 00:54:33:18
Cullen
Yeah. And there's a moment in that movie, though, where he he robbed a bank and it's a true story as well. And it even opens with the same title card. And most of what follows is true. And the but the lady in the bank, when she's giving her statement to police, just sort of says like, well, he was also kind of a gentleman.
00:54:33:18 - 00:54:55:01
Cullen
Like, he was very polite. And so I think that that's like, again, that kind of idea really to me stems from this movie is that like you've got you don't have to have mean people to these things. And there's of course moments later on in the film where the the it gets very real and gets very grim and you know when Bush is forced to kill someone for the first time.
00:54:55:06 - 00:54:55:14
Clark
Right.
00:54:55:14 - 00:55:08:00
Cullen
And you get this slow motion scream of the bandits that they've just killed falling backwards into the dust and, you know, their guns flying away. And then just this silent shot of Butch and Sundance looking at the bodies.
00:55:08:00 - 00:55:29:10
Clark
And then we have this total departure of Katharine Ross, who. Yes. Yeah. This, you know, this grounding kind of element to their relationship. She is out of the pit, which I do find a little bit strange. I mean, a little bit from a story perspective. It seems kind of odd that that she is just absent from the film kind of abruptly.
00:55:29:16 - 00:55:58:06
Clark
It's a little bit strange to me, but, you know, I just want to go back, you know, look, I'm a huge fan when it comes to story. This is a simple story told well, very an extremely simple story. And and I think you and I were kind of discussing how it's so dissimilar to us to a lot of Westerns, especially, you know, the man with No name trilogy, where you have these betrayals and these complex relationships and kind of plot twists and turns and, you know, and much more elaborate plots.
00:55:58:06 - 00:56:17:18
Clark
I mean, it's it's hard to get any more simple than this plot. Yeah. And frankly, I mean, the latter half of the film is not much more than a chase in a sense. We've got you know, but the whole film is it's extremely simple. And, you know, I'm curious, like I think you probably are a fan of the film's pacing.
00:56:17:23 - 00:56:23:06
Clark
I think that was something that the critics at the time were. Some critics were.
00:56:23:10 - 00:56:24:02
Cullen
They were divided.
00:56:24:02 - 00:56:48:12
Clark
Yeah, divided on. And I it was something that I felt a little bit I felt pacing was, you know, the montage that we have in the middle of the film. I you know, they're interesting choices. And like I've already said, I respect that. But I did feel like there were some you know, it's very simple plot. I feel like they could have even charged forward you know, more strong.
00:56:48:12 - 00:56:49:05
Cullen
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:49:06 - 00:57:00:18
Clark
With with like a you know with a little more oomph behind that, you know. But, but I, but I also see your point too that this is kind of almost like a fairy tale or kind of like this mythology. That's.
00:57:00:18 - 00:57:34:04
Cullen
Yeah, that's kind of the way I look at it. Yeah. Yeah. It's exactly that. Like, it's, it's, it's a tale that you would have heard in a saloon, like. Yeah, it's this. Yeah. And I think I do think it's, it's again, this, the simplicity of the story to me is the, the best part of it. And I think like you know, I think every filmmaker would strive to get a script like this, not necessarily in like the sense of dialog, even though the dialog is very good, but just in terms of the fact that it's it's a really rich story, but still very simple.
00:57:34:04 - 00:57:38:17
Cullen
There's not a lot of moving pieces. It's about two outlaws that, you know, are on the run.
00:57:38:23 - 00:57:55:17
Clark
Certainly stands in contrast to most, most things today. I feel like especially with this this quote unquote so-called second golden era of television and limited series, I think that I feel like we've seen plot machinations.
00:57:56:12 - 00:57:57:17
Cullen
Everything's about plot.
00:57:57:19 - 00:58:17:21
Clark
Everything is so much about plot. And in the end, I think films often try to keep up with that, even though they've only got 90 or 120 minutes. You know, I feel like films are kind of many films feel an obligation to to keep up with the just full on quantity of plot that our stories now seem to have.
00:58:18:05 - 00:58:20:18
Clark
I mean, it's just, you know. Oh, I.
00:58:20:18 - 00:58:40:14
Cullen
Mean I mean, that's always my advice for any, if any, you know, filmmakers are out there listening to this is like whenever I'm trying to, you know, tighten up a script is just I just start cutting things like the feature that I was doing right now. We, I the last draft, which became the shooting script, I cut an entire character out of it.
00:58:40:14 - 00:58:53:15
Cullen
And yeah, it solved so many problems when it came to, you know, why are things happening? How does this happen? Where where does this go? What am I supposed to do with this character while there? You know? And it I just I just cut them out and put their functions on onto one.
00:58:53:16 - 00:59:07:01
Clark
Everything I feel like has to have, you know, in A, A, a, B, or C, a, D story. I mean, our guess for, you know, another way to say it would be subplots. So, yes, everything feels like it has to have so many of these threads and like.
00:59:07:01 - 00:59:08:17
Cullen
You've got to cut away to the B.
00:59:08:21 - 00:59:26:00
Clark
You've always. Right. And Yes. And and and that can get kind of wild. So I do really appreciate that about this film. And I think that, you know, that's where films I think really shine. I mean that they don't have to be the same as not to get again, like keep getting off on these tangents, but there's a place for all of them.
00:59:26:00 - 00:59:29:16
Clark
There's a place for these really complicated stories to be told.
00:59:29:16 - 00:59:30:15
Cullen
The godfathers.
00:59:30:22 - 00:59:53:17
Clark
And and but there's a place for very simple. And I feel like it's really where film shines when you've only got again in 9120 minutes. It's a simple story told well and it's about kind of world creation, which we haven't talked a ton about or not. Not directly, but indirectly. But I mean, this this film does do a fantastic job of very quickly and efficiently setting up the world.
00:59:53:17 - 01:00:15:02
Clark
And that's everything from like you had mentioned in the opening titles. We have the silent film footage, you know, the fake film itself. We have the sepia openings and closings. We've got, you know, even in the montages, which I do feel like kind of take a little bit of the pacing away from the film. We have this world building that we we really get a sense of the era that that we're in in this film.
01:00:15:21 - 01:00:35:00
Clark
And it's very successful at doing that. But yeah, so well, I think to kind of wrap up, I mean, I've got a couple of questions for you. I'm going to consider you the Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid expert. Certainly between the two of us. You are. I'm I'm curious kind of how do you feel like the film has aged now?
01:00:35:00 - 01:00:41:16
Clark
Obviously, I know that from a personal perspective you still very much love the film, so that's not a question. Okay, so I've got.
01:00:41:16 - 01:00:43:07
Cullen
To divide my by personal bias.
01:00:43:07 - 01:00:55:04
Clark
So you got it. Take your. Yeah, try as best you can. I know it's impossible to completely do so, but as best you can, you know, how do you feel Like the film has aged as far as story goes and kind of technical presentation.
01:00:55:10 - 01:01:30:09
Cullen
I think so. Okay. So for me, I think that the it's very much a product of its time, right? But in a good way. I don't think it's something that, you know, I don't think I've ever shown this movie to somebody and they've said, oh, that's very, you know, late sixties, early seventies, But I don't like it. Like I think usually it's it's more along the lines of like that's a really, you know again for example that the raindrops scene or just the use of montage and the music in it and you know every time I've kind of heard comment about that, it's more so being in a positive sense than a negative.
01:01:30:09 - 01:01:37:04
Clark
Saying so like I can tell the era that it was made in. Yeah, but that's okay. It does very much, you.
01:01:37:04 - 01:02:06:06
Cullen
Know, similar to something like, like a, you know, Jaws, which is I think to me there's a lot of things in Jaws that are very, very 1975, but those are all things that I like about the movie. And I think that that everyone sort of likes about them and that I think almost it's interesting that you mentioned worldbuilding that I find that the sixties elements to this movie and the sort of more dated elements of it are almost a part of the world building too, that it's almost like it almost contextualizes the movie and why choices were made, which I think is really interesting.
01:02:06:23 - 01:02:32:04
Cullen
Like there's nothing in this movie that I can really think of that I would say has necessarily aged poorly, that has that has kind of gone. And you may disagree. You might actually have moments like even down to and I was actually going to mention this in the the cinematography section I forgot. But you know, the day or night in this movie I think is credit the day that all of the outdoor night scenes where you know what all daytime it is.
01:02:32:04 - 01:02:33:10
Clark
Yes. This day I think the night.
01:02:33:10 - 01:02:34:22
Cullen
Looks really, really cool was.
01:02:35:03 - 01:02:37:12
Clark
Really good. I actually you know, even on.
01:02:37:12 - 01:02:38:08
Cullen
The shady transfers.
01:02:38:13 - 01:02:53:12
Clark
I it's funny that you mentioned that. Well, it's my understanding that on the Blu rays, they actually it's not timed correctly and it looks even better if it were appropriately timed. But it's it's actually it's over. It's way too much.
01:02:54:22 - 01:02:55:22
Cullen
The blacks are too high I.
01:02:55:22 - 01:03:02:12
Clark
Think lacks the black levels thank you are way too high. So yeah I actually am really impressed. You're right.
01:03:02:13 - 01:03:07:23
Cullen
I know the that did that for for a lot of movies after this and tried to do day for night and not done.
01:03:07:23 - 01:03:32:19
Clark
It not done it as well. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think you know if I imagine you know somebody just watching this I think you know the zooms might data in a way a little bit but but but not because people I mean I don't think people used zooms like this even back then but because it's so so rarely if ever, that a filmmaker uses a zoom lens today, that's probably something that somebody might say, Hey, that dates it.
01:03:33:00 - 01:03:49:07
Clark
This is looks a little strange. I'm not used to this grammar because people are just not used to zooms being used in this way anymore. So that might date it a little bit. But again, I'm actually kind of a fan of the Zoom, so for me this isn't a problem. I enjoy seeing it, but I imagine somebody else watching it that might stick out to them.
01:03:49:07 - 01:03:59:20
Cullen
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people that are again, as you sort of said earlier, that there's there's a lot of people that are very, very anti zoom which I think is really funny because both for ease of use and I think.
01:03:59:20 - 01:04:17:14
Clark
For hey it's just another tool, it's actually a tool in the toolbox. So, you know, and I think I would agree with you overall. I think that that although you can certainly tell the era that this film was made, I think that it's certainly a part of its charm now and doesn't make the film kind of unreviewable or doesn't lose its charm.
01:04:17:14 - 01:04:38:15
Clark
And I mean, look, it's, you know, Paul Newman and Robert Redford as the leads are, it's you'd be hard pressed to find two more charismatic actors there. Yeah, right. You know, even amongst like, you know, actors who are currently living, I can hardly think of somebody who would have done, you know, been more charismatic in those roles. So, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, any last words on kind of I mean.
01:04:39:00 - 01:04:39:06
Cullen
I think.
01:04:39:10 - 01:04:40:01
Clark
Impact.
01:04:40:01 - 01:04:54:16
Cullen
Or one thing is like I think again to to think of of the the elements of just the whole movie as a whole is, is what I always kind of like to do with movies like this is think about, okay, if it was remade today, what would it be like? And I think that it would lose so much of its charm.
01:04:54:16 - 01:05:16:12
Cullen
I think it would lose so much of its, you know, wears its choices on its sleeve. But I think that that really helps it. And I think that yeah, I think, again, just the elements that are really a product of its time are things that that heighten the movie for me. So yeah, so I think that you would lose so much character if you pulled all that stuff out and that yeah, that would become less special.
01:05:16:12 - 01:05:18:08
Cullen
It would become less kind of like unique.
01:05:18:08 - 01:05:33:03
Clark
Unique. Yeah. Yeah. Well, awesome. I and I think I, you know, you've mentioned a handful of things we did kind of throughout about its impact. I think certainly in and like with buddy films there's been a yes film has had a large impact I think and even.
01:05:33:03 - 01:05:34:05
Cullen
To video games again that.
01:05:34:08 - 01:05:35:14
Clark
Even in the video game.
01:05:35:18 - 01:05:53:05
Cullen
Set the movie or a game like, you know, Red Dead Redemption two which came out I think. Yeah. 2018. Right. Has references to this in the game but also that the fact that the creators Rockstar like told their employees watch this film because this is one of the Yeah because that of course is again about the kind of downfall of the Wild West so.
01:05:53:12 - 01:06:25:15
Clark
Right Yeah. Excellent. Well I am I it's like you know especially you know, I feel like and this is probably one of the best examples of this watching this film or kind of discussing it through your eyes. Being such a fan has like once again heightened my appreciation of it, which is awesome. It's really one of the fringe benefits of doing this podcast, and I hope that you feel the same way after having discussed one of the films that I have.
01:06:25:15 - 01:06:50:18
Clark
Yeah, maybe an initial greater connection or relationship with the new and hopefully the listener. I hope out there that maybe we're contributing to that. Your furthered increased enjoyment of these movies as well. That would be an awesome, awesome thing. Yeah. So on that note, we'll look forward to next time to have to see what film we're going to do.
01:06:50:18 - 01:06:57:20
Clark
How exciting. But until then, thank you so much for tuning in and we'll see you next time.
01:06:57:20 - 01:07:00:10
Cullen
But by.