Cullen
Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I'm Cullen McFater and with me as always, is Clark Coffey. How are you doing?
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Clark
I'm doing fantastic, man. How are you?
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Cullen
I'm good. I was. Should we do our weather update, our classics?
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Clark
Well, you know, I was going to say we could do the weather update. It is a beautiful fall day here, but. Yeah, but I was just going to say, you know, we had Thanksgiving here in the United States last week, and I've been living off of pumpkin pie, basically. So I'm like, I'm I'm super amped for this episode.
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Clark
I'm running on time. I mean, you know, it's like it's like perfect fuel. Perfect fuel for film. Yeah, But no. Yeah, everything is great, man. Yeah.
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Cullen
Excellent. So today we're talking about lesson 16, which is music. Yeah. Which is a very interesting topic with Herzog because he, you know, he loves all that choral stuff, but he also he uses some pretty interesting music choices in a lot of ways, very kind of, you know, unusual in a way, but also work really well.
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Clark
Certainly at least to, you know, my American ears and I would imagine like to you know, to quite a few like Western listeners, he is he uses an extraordinary range of music, which often really helps kind of lend his to his films, kind of a I don't know if it I don't know if surreal ness is the right word, but I think kind of like like or I kind of get a sense from a lot of his music choices, which is kind of what he's trying to do with the visuals of his films, right?
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Clark
Is just like this presenting these unknown and unique landscapes. And it's like.
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Cullen
Bringing you into a dream lights like state almost. That's. That's what I always get.
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Clark
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, so it'll be exciting. Yeah. I think that, you know unlike some by and I Ed don't get me wrong I love Scorsese but you know it's definitely a different conversation to have about music than if you were talking about a director like him because we could just talk about the Rolling Stones, you know, if we were going to talk about what I mean, I kind of joke, obviously.
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Clark
Scorsese He uses a lot. A lot means a lot of music. That's not the Rolling Stones, but it's kind of funny that I don't.
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Cullen
It always comes up.
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Clark
It always comes up. And, you know, Herzog is somebody that uses such that he uses such an interesting breadth and range of music.
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Cullen
And it's almost, I find the not to dwell on the difference for too long, but I always find that the interesting part of it, the difference is that I find that that Scorsese he his, you know, attraction to that type of music comes from the fact that it's almost like his childhood or whatever, right? Like the nostalgia of it.
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Cullen
Whereas yes. Herzog I find that he almost and I can't confirm this because he's never really said this, but I feel like he almost he uses music that he's hearing for the first time during production, you know.
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Clark
So it's it's really interesting that you mentioned that. It's interesting that you mention it now. You know, again, I can't I don't know for sure. You know, it's one of those things where I have I've read so many interviews or watched so many interviews of Herzog, and I've listened to him kind of speak about his child so many times that I can't place this specifically.
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Clark
But and people out there, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I am 99% sure that Herzog claims at least that he actually did not hear like recorded music until he was about 18 now. So yeah.
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Cullen
And so never heard that. But that's interesting, right?
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Clark
And so. Right. If it's true, it you know, it's it's part of the mythology. Like I said, I'm almost positive Herzog has said this, you know, about himself, you know, and I would assume it's true if he said it. I don't know why you would make that out. But there is a huge difference, right? Because you're exactly right.
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Clark
You point out something really interesting in that, you know, if you hadn't heard music and rights, Herzog also had not seen film until he was kind of formed in a sense, you know, basically like at the end of adolescence, then you wouldn't have that right? You the whole like this nostalgia that, let's say somebody like Scorsese he has where he's bringing in music he grew up with.
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Clark
Well, if you don't grow up with music, I would imagine that gives you an entirely unique perspective on how you see music just in general, right? So it's an interesting it's really interesting that you bring that up. But but yeah, I'll have to go back and look. But I'm almost positive that that's kind of part of the mythology of Herzog, you know, that somehow he grew up without even recorded music until he was 18.
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Clark
But, you know, growing up in the Bavarian mountains or whatever.
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Cullen
There were no there were no turntables or record. But. Right. And I know we've we've talked about this before individually and you've mentioned that you when you write, sometimes you'll write with music. And I think we both do, but I think we do in very different ways. Okay. I'm curious to know what you're like. How is music involved in your process and your creative process?
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Clark
Sure, sure. It's so and this is not always right. This is this is sometimes, but often I will, you know, and this music comes in at a handful of ways. So sometimes let's say I'll sit down and I know the scene that I'm trying to write or let's say I'm editing it right. I need to I need to revisit a scene and rewrite a scene.
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Clark
And and so I already have like this conceptual conceptualization of what the scene is going to be. I will sometimes listen to music that I feel really represents the energy or tone of this scene. Right. And and so often to for me, it's like there may be even like one specific song or a couple songs and it can get kind of, I have to do this with headphones on because it can drive anybody around me nuts.
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Clark
But I might listen to a song on loop, you know, for the entire duration of my writing of the scene. If I feel like that song really encapsulates and represents the tone or energy that I'm going for or puts me in an emotional state that I, you know, that I feel like represents the scene, if that makes sense.
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Clark
Other times, if I if I'm kind of, you know, writing a first draft and I don't know where things are going to go necessarily, I might listen to music that maybe an artist or an album or kind of pick a playlist that I feel like, you know, puts me in the space, the overall kind of space of whatever story that I am writing and, and something and I kind of might refine that as I go write the story, might take me in different places.
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Clark
And I find that the music I'm currently listening to is not a good representation of that. And so I'll stop and find something else or, you know, But then sometimes I'm curious.
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Cullen
To know though, is does that, does that song like let's say you find a song that really well encapsulates the mood of your scene, does that then carry on through your production? Like, do you use that when you are shot listing? And then do you use that when you're, you know, even getting you psyched up for the shoot?
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Cullen
And then do you use that when you're editing? And then do you if you're using a composer, do you share that song with the composer, or is it something that just kind of starts and ends in editing or in writing?
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Clark
Yeah, so that's a really good question. I think, you know, in my in my experience, it's run the gamut out of it. Sometimes those things kind of stop with writing because whatever I've written ends up changing so much, whether it's through rewrites or, you know, I've never actually shot with music. And I and it's something that I certainly could explore, but I tend to not kind of give that piece to the other.
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Clark
So let's say, you know, I've written a scene where there's a couple actors there, you know, it's they're having some kind of like moment or dialog here. I've never and I've written the scene to a particular piece of music. I've never said, Hey, actors, here's some music that I wrote that this where to write, you know, take this as part of your homework.
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Clark
I've actually never done anything like that. I've and I've definitely never had any songs carry all the way through the process to the point of that actual song is in the finished product because I've just never been in a position to be able to afford, you know, most of the music that I listen to to actually put it in my films, but I definitely have like four people have collaborated with who've written music, written and recorded music.
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Clark
I've definitely said, Hey, here are some examples of but I don't think I've ever given just one piece of music, though, and said, Hey, this is what I listened to whenever I wrote this. I want you to create something that's similar to tone. I'm afraid if I give like one piece of music that there might be a temptation to just kind of try to recreate that one piece.
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Cullen
So yeah, that's that's a very specific.
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Clark
Insight that yeah, and so that's what I've always, you know, for my process if I give music and but sometimes it's not music necessarily that I might give it, you know, I have, I have given, you know, like pictures of paintings or clips from other films or, you know, it's not always just music as an inspiration that I have given to composers because I, you know, I'm not a musician myself.
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Clark
So let's get that right off the, you know, get that right out there in the open. And I don't want to to hand over to someone who is a musician, who is a composer, my limitations, right? So, you know, I want them. I'm saying, hey, you know, please, like take a look at the scene or here's you know, here's the script.
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Clark
Like, I want to bring them into the story and I want I really want to maximize their ability to collaborate and bring their expertise and talent to the film. So I'm really you know, I am very cautious. I understand my limitations. I'm pretty narrow, so I don't want to bring that to other people who are actually quite broad, you know, and their skills and knowledge and experience of music.
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Clark
So I don't know if that answered your question, you know.
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Cullen
Yeah, that did it. So that is I was correct in my assumption that we do both start out the same but then get very different. Yeah, because for me music is very, you know, I would say 90% to 95% of the time that I write something or that I create something. Yeah, music is the beginning of it.
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Clark
Okay. Oh, wow.
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Cullen
That's so, for example, the western that I did, I guess it's two years ago now. Or was it last year? I can't remember. But within the last few years that started because there's a piece that's unused in the thing that any American wrote. I think it's called Eternity. I think the track name is and it was unused, but it's in the soundtrack.
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Cullen
Okay. I remember listening to it and just visualizing this idea of this. You know, it sounds sort of like a funeral march and it's this descending organ and it's great. It's very synthy as well. And I thought, this doesn't sound anything like a Western soundtrack, but I was just picturing this this like cowboy trying to return money that he stole to his family and all this stuff.
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Cullen
And that became the movie. And so when I do that, though, and this is for I can probably say for pretty much every movie I've ever written, I will write and I will collect all the music that I wrote and I'll make almost like a proto soundtrack. Okay, that I will then visualize scenes to and do the shot listening to.
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Cullen
And then I will share that with the cast and crew. Yeah, sort of say and then when I get to the point where I am like, I don't really play the music well while we're on set, of course, but everyone is aware of that. Then at the point where I get a composer involved, it's usually a conversation of there's sometimes when I will specifically say, I really like the sound of this, you know, like I.
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Cullen
So for that instance, it was this descending organ that just kind of made it right from the outset of the movie seem like, you know, that this character is not going to make it out of a lot out of. And so the movie is more about how that happens rather than like what happens at the end kind of thing.
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Cullen
So I sometimes will say, you know, I really like the sound of descending organ. So if we could do something with that, it's really cool. But I've also had experiences to where I've not really it's not been the style of music, it's been the feeling of the music that has really gotten me. So I've sort of said, take a look at the cut with it.
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Cullen
Temp scored with this and then here's a cut completely with no music. And if you like the sound of the temp, feel free to kind of emulate that. Obviously, to a certain extent, imitation can you can get away with it, but sometimes you can't. But also I've always been very clear that it's like, you know, if you have a completely different idea, you know, that being the composer, if you have a completely different idea or something that you want to run by me, that has nothing to do with what the temp sounds like.
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Cullen
I'm very happy to hear it. And I always just sort of consider it sort of like showing, you know, paintings or old photographs to a deep light that's kind of in my mind, the same thing where it's like this because of the fact that this track is so intertwined with with the way that the story is going and the way that the story was written.
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Cullen
Yeah, I find that it's really to me, it really helps my process if I keep that track kind of going with it. And then, I mean, I'm lucky because I could the first few times I did this, I was concerned that if I got a temps or a score back from a composer that was completely different, that I'd be like, Oh no, it's ruined.
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Cullen
One more often, that I am completely happy when it's changed up and it's different. I it provides a whole new life to it.
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Clark
And so if you find that you aren't so attached like no, no, no.
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Cullen
Yeah, it's by no means it's an attachment. Yeah. It's more of like a I take it more as like a guide that then, you know, you can kind of take the training wheels off at the end and kind of then play around with it. And I have, you know, I'm also I like you. I'm not a musician. I would say I don't I don't have much theoretical knowledge of music, but I have played piano and I know, you know, I know basic terminology and the ways to communicate certain things that I want.
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Cullen
So I'm very involved in the music process in the way of like, you know, if I want more brass or if I want it to be faster or something like that, I can communicate those ideas. And sure, it's very collaborative, whereas I know a lot of directors just kind of hand it off and they're happy to let the and that might be one more where you lies that you kind of are happy to let a composer who's an expert on music run out that course more independently than say, you know, I'd love to be there with with the composer sitting there with the in the recording sessions and being able to listen to that.
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Clark
Right. I mean, that I certainly would take the opportunity to do that. And it's not that I don't I think it's more just a tie, you know, in the same way that I don't give feedback to an actor saying, you know, loud, you know, I try not to speak to here's what I want, the output of your interpretation to be.
00:14:30:04 - 00:14:53:05
Clark
What I try to do is feed the input. Right? Right. And they're still working independently as an interpretive artist to take the inputs. And and I'm you know, their process brings the output, right? So I kind of it's, you know, if that makes any sense. Right. So I never say like louder, faster or softer, happier, you know, center like which are of course ridiculous, you know, defects to give to an actor.
00:14:53:05 - 00:15:14:08
Clark
But I mean, but it happens all the time. But it's more about I ask questions and try to lead through, you know, asking questions about given the circumstances and etc.. So it's kind of the same my, my, that how I would work with a composer is kind of in the same way where, you know, I'm I'm trying to I'm absolutely working hard in a collaborative way to share my vision.
00:15:14:16 - 00:15:52:21
Clark
Of what? Of the of the tone, you know, of the tone and sometimes plot although that's not as vital, but really about the feeling, what am I trying to what is what am I trying to kind of share from a deeper kind of place of feeling and and tone and color and texture in the scene? Not literally color, but, you know, but emotionally color and tone and texture and making sure that whoever is doing the music, writing the music is on on the same page as that, that as opposed to like more brass or I mean, sometimes.
00:15:52:21 - 00:16:02:23
Clark
Sure. It's like, you know, I really feel like something that's cello driven here will would work, but I'm always like open you know and.
00:16:03:10 - 00:16:30:20
Cullen
Yeah no totally that's that's I think the key and I also I mean this is also, I would say more rare, but I like more rare in the industry that I'm always happy to reedit to the composer. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like I would always say to a composer, if you have a moment that is on this Hitchcock thing that I'm doing right now, I did this exact thing where it was the composer said, I think I could use like another beat to hang on to that moment right there and do something with it.
00:16:30:20 - 00:16:54:08
Cullen
And so I'll reedit. I know that that's more difficult to do in the industry because usually it's picture locked at the point where it goes to the composer. So the VFX and all that can be absolute. But, but I, I know, I mean, I know Spielberg did that for E.T. and I think has done it several times with John Williams where it's yeah, he's been happy to, you know, reedit pieces for or moments for the music.
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Clark
Yeah. I mean and that's a really good thing that you bring up. We've talked about writing, we've talked about other aspects of bringing music into the process, but we've not really talked about editing so much. And, you know, I really feel like for me, I've got a very a strong sense of rhythm in my writing and not just with dialog, but I have a very strong connection to a rhythm of words when I'm writing.
00:17:20:10 - 00:17:44:18
Clark
I also feel that connection very strongly in the edit. And it's interesting because more often than not, it is some kind of internal rhythm. I, I don't usually, very rarely edit to an external piece of music or rhythm or, you know, but the cut, I mean, rhythm is so vital. And again, you know, I'm not a master editor.
00:17:45:04 - 00:17:49:17
Clark
I have definitely edited a lot of things because just the nature of independent filmmaking, this is.
00:17:49:17 - 00:17:51:06
Cullen
What you kind of you will fall into.
00:17:51:06 - 00:17:53:17
Clark
It. And so but I would never say I am an editor.
00:17:54:07 - 00:17:56:00
Cullen
Me neither. Meaning by no means.
00:17:56:04 - 00:18:23:15
Clark
But just it kind of my intuitive process. I mean, is there's very much a rhythm there and you really brought up a great point. You know, it's and it just depends on like, you know, how you're able to work with people, right? I mean, especially at certain stages of your career where you don't have access to just any and every, you know, potential, you know, work, You know, the way you've got to work with people sometimes just kind of necessitates like, okay, well, you know, this is what it is.
00:18:23:15 - 00:18:46:22
Clark
So I have definitely recut things to other pieces of music. And of course, I've also had, you know, I've worked with with composers to say, hey, you know, actually like that I feel like this cut has its own really perfect internal rhythm. Let's let's actually create the music to this very specific thing. So I've done both things and hey, it's like, I think if you can do it, you know.
00:18:47:23 - 00:18:56:05
Cullen
And I think it's interesting because there's a I think it's The Hollywood Reporter roundtable with a few composers, and I think it's like Danny Elfman and oh.
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Clark
Yeah, Alexandre.
00:18:57:00 - 00:18:59:11
Cullen
Desplat, Desplat and a few other people.
00:18:59:16 - 00:19:02:06
Clark
Okay. Is this more of a recent one I haven't seen? No, I think.
00:19:02:06 - 00:19:22:23
Cullen
I think it came out a few years ago. But it's interesting is there's a point where Danny Elfman talks about or might be Danny Elfman or someone else. He talks about the fact that when it's like cut to a temp score, that so often the rhythm of the scene is dictated by the music. And so I think that's kind of where the amendment comes in, where I say, you know, I've cut this, too.
00:19:22:23 - 00:19:39:08
Cullen
If I if I do, you know, I don't always. But in the event that I'm so, you know, into this scene, having the rhythm of of a certain piece and I cut to that, then I will always again say that like take it without the temp score once to take a look at it or even watch it before you for the temp score.
00:19:39:08 - 00:20:07:02
Cullen
The moment that and figure out where you need time where I can reedit because I'm happy to reedit. And there's another point to where they talk about what is Oh yes the the idea that and this kind of brings us up to the next point in in Herzog's comment which is that the there's a really wide kind of philosophy in music and film these days that the music shouldn't be noticed.
00:20:07:02 - 00:20:25:22
Cullen
And it's really weird to me. Oh, wow. And Elfman, really? Well, Elfman even mentions in the Hollywood Reporter entry roundtable, he says, you know, that it's an interesting kind of evolution of of movie music, that it shouldn't be noticed or that it should be under like underplay, just, you know, just to complement the scene but.
00:20:25:22 - 00:20:26:05
Clark
Shouldn't.
00:20:26:11 - 00:20:27:12
Cullen
Draw attention to itself.
00:20:27:16 - 00:20:28:17
Clark
Overwhelm you shouldn't.
00:20:28:17 - 00:20:39:00
Cullen
But he mentions, you know, growing up with with Hitchcock movies, it's like you feel and you hear every note from Herrmann, right? And you know that music is not in the background at all. That music.
00:20:39:02 - 00:20:45:15
Clark
Neither is. Williams Oh, yeah. WILLIAMS With Spielberg. Yeah. I mean, that's that's about as much face as you could get. Yeah, that's.
00:20:45:15 - 00:21:04:19
Cullen
What I really like. You know, I actually prefer that style of music and I think that Herzog, very interestingly, does that a lot too, like his, especially when he uses those big choral pieces. You're right. It's very, very upfront. You know, even that moment in Encounters at the End of the World with the penguin walking away and it's like Gregorian chant.
00:21:04:19 - 00:21:05:11
Clark
Yes.
00:21:05:11 - 00:21:14:07
Cullen
And it's this beautiful piece of music as this. And it would be, you know, it's it would be funny if anybody else were doing this, but because it's Herzog, it's like existential dread.
00:21:14:16 - 00:21:33:18
Clark
I absolutely and I completely agree with you. I mean, his and I don't it's interesting that you you know, the language that you're using that you know, or that you're talking about that they were using in this Hollywood Reporter roundtable is kind of interesting to me that music should be in the background or something. That's kind of such a weird way to think about it.
00:21:35:00 - 00:21:55:21
Clark
But, you know, but talking about Herzog and his usage of music, I mean, you know, Herzog talks about how important it is to find a mood. So much of what we've been talking about now is, you know, our processes for music and how it affects the mood of a film, etc., how it emphasizes that the the emotional qualities that we're trying to communicate in our in our stories.
00:21:56:07 - 00:22:18:13
Clark
And of course, I mean, that's you know, it's I feel like the music is such a vital we talked about sound right last week and how sound is at least 50% of a film. And we we kind of both agreed that it's maybe even more you know music is is so and so vital. I feel like, you know, we talked about how sound is kind of a more direct link to your brain, right?
00:22:18:13 - 00:22:24:15
Clark
It's like your your visual processing is kind of more of an analytical or conceptual kind.
00:22:24:15 - 00:22:24:18
Cullen
Of.
00:22:24:22 - 00:22:31:21
Clark
Literal, Like it has some sense, but you're but sound has such an immediate and yes, connection to emotion.
00:22:32:12 - 00:22:36:12
Cullen
It's almost it's more, I would say more, it's more instinctual.
00:22:36:12 - 00:22:52:17
Clark
It's instinctual. It's primal. Right? It's kind of this primordial kind of thing. And. Right. And so it's, you know, the way we process and are affected by sound and vision, I think are quite different, say, with smell. Right. Smells can bring back memories in ways that are, you know, so extraordinary compared to a vision or a, you know, Yeah.
00:22:52:17 - 00:22:53:21
Clark
Sounds or senses.
00:22:53:22 - 00:23:00:15
Cullen
You the amount of times that I've smelled something and be like that's my, you know, my late grandmother's house from when I was four years old. And it's like, weird.
00:23:00:15 - 00:23:07:19
Clark
Yeah, yeah. Right, right. And so, you know, Herzog has yet to use smell of vision for any of these films, unfortunately.
00:23:07:19 - 00:23:10:04
Cullen
I think that that's making a comeback, though. I've invested in it.
00:23:10:19 - 00:23:42:19
Clark
You're invested in it, right? It's like Dolby smell of vision it. But but yeah. So there's you know, there's kind of it's just that our brains process these things, the sensory input in different ways. And so I feel like music is such a powerful it's powerful in slightly different ways. And, you know, I feel like. Herzog If you were to remove the music of so much, you know, I think of like the opening scene of a gallery, the encounters, the scene that you just mentioned, and countless others, frankly, countless others that I you know, I feel like there's at least a moment or two in every one of his.
00:23:42:19 - 00:23:45:11
Cullen
Nosferatu as a ton of it. Like. Right, great, great.
00:23:45:18 - 00:23:50:22
Clark
Moments, White Diamond encounters. We just mentioned that so many of them.
00:23:50:22 - 00:23:53:10
Cullen
Are the into dark with the dark lessons and.
00:23:53:10 - 00:23:56:12
Clark
Dark lessons of darkness. Yeah. I mean, we could literally mention I.
00:23:56:12 - 00:23:57:00
Cullen
Mean, every.
00:23:57:00 - 00:24:04:22
Clark
One of his films where his music is so integral to creating that overall emotional landscape.
00:24:04:22 - 00:24:28:09
Cullen
And I think that's the that's the the key to it as well is that there's like there's there's again, there's no right or wrong answer, both because everyone has their own taste, but also because I think that all of these things can be used at different times. You know, there are certainly moments when I did a, you know, a long form short was about half an hour back and 2017, 2018.
00:24:28:22 - 00:24:50:01
Cullen
And it there was a moment where the character wakes up and there's like a big realized portion and it's about midway through. And I just kept thinking of these like this, like loud brass hit when it happened. Like, that's really what I want. It's like I played with it myself just on some software that I have. And then I, you know, I talked to the composer and I sort of described the feeling that I get from it.
00:24:50:01 - 00:25:26:06
Cullen
And then also, again, to leave the open interpretation, they're saying that, you know, obviously it doesn't have to be a brass hit. That was just kind of my interpretation of it, but it could be whatever brings that emotion. But but it's a very big moment that is in combination with the music. And I think that a lot of people and I know directors that are like this that think that the for some reason music is a separate element, that they will complain if they feel like the music is, you know, telling you what to feel on the nose or is too clearly in, you know, interpreting them or interpret it to literal.
00:25:26:07 - 00:25:45:14
Cullen
Yeah and I but I've never I've never had an issue with that, you know like I've, I've always thought if a scene is sad and there's sadness, of course there is a degree to which it can get kind of absurd. But I mean if if you know, if someone shocked in you you use music to accent that in a in a you know a subjectively good way.
00:25:45:20 - 00:26:01:08
Cullen
Yeah. Then I don't really have a problem with that whereas I know a lot of directors who are very much like no no, no, I don't want I don't want the music there at all, because then I'm relying on it and I don't I've never really seen an issue with relying on music because it's a part of the movie.
00:26:01:08 - 00:26:01:15
Cullen
It's it's.
00:26:01:15 - 00:26:02:05
Clark
Interesting.
00:26:02:05 - 00:26:04:21
Cullen
I've been intrigued as the sound designers. Anything else, Right? Sure.
00:26:05:01 - 00:26:26:17
Clark
I mean, well, I think, you know, this is interesting. You've you've mentioned something that is a really compelling thing to kind of think about. I think, you know, I am one of those people that I don't like on the nose. Emotional manipulation. Of course, I want to be moved by a film. And so it's not that I expect that a film shouldn't move me.
00:26:26:17 - 00:26:50:13
Clark
Of course not. I hope that a film will move me, but I won't. I don't want to be pulled by the nose, you know, to that to that movement. I second clue. I don't want to be told what to think or told what to feel and told the exact moments that I should be feeling these things. And, you know, I'd like to be able to find my own way emotionally through a story and kind of apply my own interpretation.
00:26:50:14 - 00:27:05:15
Clark
So I think, you know, it really depends on what the, you know, the rest of the film is doing. Right. I think if there if the film is very on the nose, it's very predictable. It's like, you know, it's not leaving you as an audience any time.
00:27:05:16 - 00:27:06:00
Cullen
To think.
00:27:06:03 - 00:27:26:14
Clark
An interpretation or. Right. And I mean, and then you also then add music on top of, you know, the script does this, the performances, you know, if the script is very narrow and on the nose, if the performances are very narrow and on the nose, if the, you know, everything visually is on the nose and then the music is also on the nose, I mean, it's overwhelming, right?
00:27:28:02 - 00:27:33:12
Clark
And that can be too much. But so I am definitely not a fan of that kind of filmmaking.
00:27:34:00 - 00:27:35:18
Cullen
Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, that's what I mean when.
00:27:35:18 - 00:27:36:22
Clark
I say right, It works.
00:27:36:22 - 00:27:37:14
Cullen
To a degree.
00:27:37:19 - 00:27:38:11
Clark
You're right. Right.
00:27:38:11 - 00:27:39:23
Cullen
That I like you know.
00:27:40:14 - 00:27:51:19
Clark
But sometimes, you know. But I just want to say to I mean, some of my favorite moments with music are, you know, where they provide a counterpoint as opposed to an emphasizing, you know, just a redundant.
00:27:51:20 - 00:27:52:12
Cullen
Kind of like a your.
00:27:52:13 - 00:28:14:18
Clark
Position. Right. Just a position, a contrast is very interesting. And so there's a lot of room to play with that. You know, I think one of the things that worked so well with Herzog's films is that with the music that he chooses is that he really is thinking outside of the box in terms of culturally, in terms of, you know, popular music versus things that are going to be new to to most of an audience's ears.
00:28:14:18 - 00:28:40:10
Clark
I mean, he talks about how, you know, his goal as a filmmaker is to is to bring new images to people. Right? That it's such a yes. Filmmakers, it's such an important role that we play to bring new images, to bring new landscapes to to bring new ideas, to an audience. And I think it's it's challenging or can be because you've really got to kind of use a subversion and and kind of, you know, really turn things upside down.
00:28:40:10 - 00:29:04:01
Clark
If you're using popular music, let's say like, for instance, The Rolling Stones and saucy. I mean, well, these are songs that have become so corporatized, so part of the fabric of like Western culture. Everybody knows these songs. Everybody knows every lyric. They've got this entire life of their own. Unless you're kind of subverting that and really going against people's expectations, which you certainly can't do if you're just playing into that music.
00:29:04:16 - 00:29:26:11
Clark
It's again, it's like, Wow, I can't. There's not much room for me as an audience there, but if I'm listening to this music where I can't even it, like the lyrics are in another language and it's like these kind of alien instruments and, you know, unique compositions. And it's not it's not just those like three chord progressions we hear at every single popular song in Western culture, but it's something that's like, whoa.
00:29:26:11 - 00:29:36:23
Clark
I mean, it's like a new it's right, it's sort of a new landscape, it's a new soundscape. And I'm like, I have this huge room to move to interpret that's exciting to me. Like, Yeah.
00:29:37:01 - 00:30:01:05
Cullen
And I think that that's again, it comes down to exactly what you're saying is. And when I you know, the point where I think that it comes across entirely kind of universally is that it it comes down to the director's use of it, right? It comes down to the choices of the, you know, for example, the, you know, Paul Thomas Anderson has collaborated with Jonny Greenwood on most of his movies.
00:30:01:05 - 00:30:02:16
Clark
And they're fantastic. Yeah, yeah.
00:30:02:18 - 00:30:29:15
Cullen
They're fantastic soundtracks and they're very upfront. They're very, you know, in your face when especially, you know, you think of There Will Be Blood, that opening scene where you have those Penderecki style strings and it works so well, you know, it immediately makes you feel like the horror of the wild and that's what it is. Or in phantom thread foreboding, those great, you know, those huge orchestral moments of like doom when when but this kind of ironic romantic doom at the end one.
00:30:29:16 - 00:30:50:18
Cullen
Yeah, of course, no spoilers, but if you've seen it you get what I mean. Right. But, but I think that that's kind of where I think and that's where I say that it should accentuate. So it shouldn't necessarily tell an audience exactly what to think. But I, but I have no issue with a piece of music really being loud and brash and accentuating a moment and sure.
00:30:51:03 - 00:30:58:01
Cullen
Coming out on on in, you know, the notice ability. And so I agree in the terms of yeah.
00:30:58:10 - 00:30:58:14
Clark
Well.
00:30:58:15 - 00:30:58:23
Cullen
I.
00:30:59:11 - 00:31:11:21
Clark
Think which I yeah. Language I would use I guess I don't know you know if this might be a way to explain it. I don't know if this resonates with you but at every aspect of your film should have an opinion. Yeah right. Yeah. But there's a difference between having an opinion and.
00:31:11:21 - 00:31:12:12
Cullen
Preaching.
00:31:12:12 - 00:31:31:11
Clark
And Right. And just, you know, and kind of saying, this is exactly what you should be thinking and feeling at this moment. And, you know, basically, I just imagine all of the worst Oscar winning movies that have ever been made. And it seems to be so many of these are like the most manipulative, you know, like there'll be some biopic, you know, that you like.
00:31:31:11 - 00:31:38:21
Clark
This is exactly what you need to feel right now. Don't you see how like, oh yeah, treated this person was and do you see how they overcame everything And yeah.
00:31:38:21 - 00:32:06:08
Cullen
There's that there's that classic like almost like an SNL trope of someone sad. You get that sad piano music. Yeah. That, that I have no no interest in. But there again there's moments where like I think that the visuals and the filmmaking can be so horrific. And I'm thinking right now specifically of the moment in, in, you know, for Schindler's List, for example, when when there the women's train car goes to the wrong place and it winds up at Auschwitz and they're like, oh yeah, into the chambers.
00:32:06:08 - 00:32:24:14
Cullen
And there's this, you know, the music there on its own is very, very forward. It's very brash. It's it's very horrifying and haunting. Right. But I think, again, it's one of those things where it's like, uh, in a moment like that, to me, it's not necessarily telling the audience what to feel. It's showing the audience how horrifying something can be.
00:32:24:14 - 00:32:43:12
Cullen
And it's and that's where I think the difference is. And it's such a fine line to ride. But I think that that's exactly I agree. It's allowing somebody like allowing me to using the music to allow me to in, you know, a fraction of the percentage of feeling the horror that those people would have felt in real life and bringing me to that.
00:32:43:21 - 00:33:05:20
Cullen
But, I mean, I also again, I know people who don't like music like that at all, just drawn on a very, very bottom line. It's like the music is if it's if you can hear it, it's bad that it should just be there to compliment slight moments and that's it. Which I, you know, I think is I mean, it's a huge waste of the the entire medium of of music.
00:33:05:20 - 00:33:28:04
Clark
Well, absolutely. I mean, I certainly don't hold that opinion. And I you know, I mean, I guess I see it as, you know, like, I guess language that I use to describe it is that music is it's just you know, you've got this tapestry, right, of film. Is this is this quilt work or this tapestry that where all of these different threads are coming together to create a whole music should be permeating that entire thing?
00:33:28:04 - 00:33:49:03
Clark
I mean, very different than Herzog, but one of my favorite examples of where soundtracks so absolutely, positively permeates the entire film is this just creates extraordinary storytelling, density and texture. Is Vangelis soundtrack for Blade Runner?
00:33:49:04 - 00:33:49:23
Cullen
Oh, yes. Yeah.
00:33:50:03 - 00:34:06:15
Clark
And it is so much more than just I mean, it is. It is. That is such an integral part. I think that's one of the best examples of a soundtrack that is so integral to the film that if you were to remove or change that soundtrack, you would have a profoundly, radically different film.
00:34:06:15 - 00:34:07:07
Cullen
Oh, exactly.
00:34:07:07 - 00:34:13:21
Clark
Exactly. You wouldn't even have the film. You would even have Blade Runner. It it would. It would just not. I mean, it's you know, it's.
00:34:13:21 - 00:34:16:06
Cullen
Such a great example of just that. Exactly.
00:34:16:08 - 00:34:48:00
Clark
And it's and so that's how I try to you know, that's one of the milestones, I guess, or the like yardsticks I use of thinking, okay, if I had the perfect soundtrack and I'm not saying sounds like that, I'm not saying same genre of music or style of music or something like that, but just in general sense of a music that is so woven into so integral that that it's you just couldn't remove it, that it's, it's as, it's as much a part of that film as any other of the performances of the cinematography of the script.
00:34:48:00 - 00:34:54:06
Clark
You know obviously that I mean that's a that's a high that's a high place to get to.
00:34:54:20 - 00:35:25:23
Cullen
But I mean, it's a perfect example of exactly what I think what like a you've you've put it into a really great kind of package with Blade Runner because that's exactly what I mean is that yeah, I think if for some reason a la I don't know if you know people like this as well but for some reason I just I just know a lot of directors, both amateur and people who are working professionally now, who always seem to separate music, who always seem to see it as like an add on to a movie as opposed to a real part of of what you're making and something that to be used.
00:35:26:17 - 00:35:51:04
Cullen
I'm curious to ask you to. Yeah. Have you ever while making a movie like in still in production, still shooting, you worked with a composer at that point where they've been sending you because I've done this a few times, where I've had composers send me music that they're doing as as the movies being made as opposed to just, you know, you finish the edit and send it to somebody.
00:35:51:04 - 00:36:15:11
Clark
I actually have. And there's been a couple of times where on some short films where I've been lucky enough, there was one instance where actually one of my leads was actually a musician and like quite a talented musician. And so part of his contribution was not just his acting performance to the film, but he was actually helping to create some pieces of music for that film while we were in production.
00:36:15:20 - 00:36:39:12
Clark
So he was actually, you know, it kind of, you know, was he was in this like emotional space because of the role that he was playing. And kind of from the perspective of that character, which I thought was really cool. Now, of course, obviously this is not something that can happen all the time. Did your actors have to be inclined musically and then want to be able to contribute in this way?
00:36:39:20 - 00:37:05:16
Clark
But this was a really cool situation. He is, you know, here he is portraying this character. He's in this emotional space. And then from the POV of that character, he was creating music for the like while we were in production. So that was a really unique sort of opportunity. There was another situation where my brother actually who is a pretty talented guy, created some pieces of music for it, and I would work back and forth with him.
00:37:05:16 - 00:37:25:20
Clark
I would show him rough cuts or, you know, show him even just footage like a few takes and like kind of give him a sense of, you know, here's where I'm kind of going. Let's talk about some music. And then he would actually present me some music and I would have some music to actually edit to. So I have actually had some opportunities to do that.
00:37:26:11 - 00:37:43:06
Clark
And I think that it's it was especially wonderful that first example I gave you that was a really cool, unique situation. But yeah, I do have experience with that. And then I also have experience of I've got the entire piece. It is like done, it's edited, it's put together, I've got to go get music.
00:37:43:09 - 00:37:43:19
Cullen
And send.
00:37:43:19 - 00:37:44:17
Clark
It. I've been there had.
00:37:44:22 - 00:38:02:12
Cullen
I've had both as well. I mean I'm not the actor, but I actually on the Herzog Herzog, Hitchcock, when I just did the set during the summer, it was interesting. The person I knew was going to compose the new movie was actually the boom operator for like things. So we could at points kind of sit down and and.
00:38:02:14 - 00:38:03:16
Clark
Actually, yeah, sort.
00:38:03:16 - 00:38:09:19
Cullen
Of say like and of course when you're doing something like Hitchcock, we both knew from the outset it was going to be a Hermann zagging.
00:38:09:19 - 00:38:11:21
Clark
Score coming from a specific place already.
00:38:11:21 - 00:38:40:17
Cullen
Right? Yeah. So we had a lot of fun with that kind of playing around with like, okay, what if you know, you know that bit in Psycho here where that could sound like that and you know, that was there was a lot of fun to do like that. But I've also like you, I've done it where, you know, I've been doing production and editing and sending rough cuts and especially when a movie takes, you know, that long form short that I mentioned earlier, that was about a half an hour took, I think over the course of like nine months to actually make and shoot just because of course availability and when you're doing something on
00:38:40:17 - 00:38:56:23
Cullen
no budget that's just kind of what happens. Yeah. And so I would send, you know, rough cuts that were incomplete know there there were tons of scene missed scenes missing and sort of say here's what I've got so far here's yeah and it was a really great way to watch that music kind of evolve right And it helps.
00:38:56:23 - 00:38:59:06
Clark
You evolve your edit and Yeah, absolutely.
00:38:59:06 - 00:39:08:16
Cullen
And then of course, at the same time, I've had points where the movie's been completely done and it's just sent off to somebody and, you know.
00:39:09:07 - 00:39:31:06
Clark
Right before even in that place, I mean, I feel like there's still a tremendous amount of collaboration. Oh, totally. I mean, I don't I don't think that that but but, you know, it's like we're we're I were in pre-production on a horror feature film right now. And, you know, part of what we're doing is producers is putting together with the it's kind of going to be, I think, co-directed by myself and the writer of the original script.
00:39:32:09 - 00:39:51:02
Clark
We've brought on another writer and a couple other producers. So there's a kind of core team of us that are in the process of putting together basically like the Bible for this film or, you know, And so music is absolutely a part of that. It's I think it's easier to go immediately to images for many filmmakers because again, it's kind of right.
00:39:51:05 - 00:40:20:11
Clark
The reason you're in filmmaking is that you are really drawn to telling stories visually. Yeah, but, but inspirations and absolutely music can be a part of a style book or a Bible. And I think that's a it's, it's a, an excellent opportunity to just bring one more level of or one more medium for a director to share their vision with all of the other department heads and all of the other collaborators.
00:40:20:11 - 00:40:40:04
Clark
There's no reason you shouldn't do it. It's I think oftentimes what I've seen this is kind of interesting. I've seen because it, you know, just depends. Everybody thinks differently, but I've seen people point to that. For example, I'm working with, you know, let's say working with a director. And they're trying you know, they're trying to explain to me kind of what, you know, here's like the feel that I want for this or that.
00:40:40:11 - 00:41:02:15
Clark
And it's funny, I've seen people actually pick scenes or pick films and say, this is really you know, this is kind of this really has the vibe that I'm kind of going for. And after I kind of, you know, chip away at what they're really talking about, it's actually the music in the scene that's actually really doing it for them as opposed to, you know, anything that's being communicated visually.
00:41:02:15 - 00:41:13:03
Clark
But it's kind of funny. I think just sometimes people don't even realize that what's inspiring them or what's what's kind of pushing them in this emotional place is actually the music of what's going on.
00:41:13:12 - 00:41:26:16
Cullen
So and I mean, I, I, I think it's really neat too, because I got my mind. My mind is like, like you don't even have you don't.
00:41:26:16 - 00:41:30:05
Clark
Even have the excuse of being filled up with know. I mean, I make I know.
00:41:30:10 - 00:41:35:21
Cullen
I've got filled up with chicken pot pie. Yeah. Let me try and get that thought back. Yeah.
00:41:35:21 - 00:41:36:11
Clark
It's okay.
00:41:36:19 - 00:41:37:16
Cullen
No I.
00:41:38:13 - 00:41:38:23
Clark
Well I.
00:41:38:23 - 00:42:02:11
Cullen
Oh the horror movie right. Yes. Yeah, I got it. So it's actually interesting that you mentioned that the idea of the horror film kind of and kind of, you know, creating a lookbook, but not necessarily just a Bible like you say. Yeah. I on writing the beat sheet for the newest draft because there were really significant changes made to the between the third and fourth drafts of this horror film that I'm directing.
00:42:02:14 - 00:42:22:14
Cullen
Mm hmm. So I did, rather than just doing the fourth draft as a screenplay, I did a beat sheet first to confirm with producers and the other, you know, creatives on it that this is where we want to go. This is the evolution of the story That's kind of what's happening in, in that beat sheet. I actually included musical cues, weirdly enough.
00:42:22:14 - 00:42:44:06
Cullen
And I said, you know, I made a little note at the top and basically said, don't have to listen to them. But these were the pieces that I was listening to as I wrote. And that kind of, yeah, helped inspire the scene and might provide a little bit of a nice experience if you're reading it and you know you want to click on the link, just do that and you can read it with that of like a audiobook with music almost.
00:42:45:12 - 00:43:03:07
Cullen
And, and so I did that and it was funny because I, some of the people did and some of the people didn't, but people that did were like, Yeah, you know, it really got me like in the mood of the scene and it really helped me feel like kind of because I think that also music is such a great communication device for really getting the point down on like what you want the scene to feel.
00:43:03:07 - 00:43:18:08
Cullen
Because I've had points where you, you can write a scene and you can be as specific as you want in terms of emotion and whatever, but people can still slightly misinterpret that, you know, they might interpret it just a little bit differently or might might think like, Oh, this scene is going to be played lighter than than you intended.
00:43:18:15 - 00:43:38:01
Cullen
And I find that music and so often be really, really vital and just sort of being like, this is the core of the emotion that I want from this scene. And again, it's this is a process that is mine. I would never, you know, any time I'm teaching or whatever, I'm never saying to my students like, this is how you've got to write something good.
00:43:38:11 - 00:43:40:19
Cullen
Yeah, it works for me. It's another to try it out.
00:43:41:03 - 00:44:04:04
Clark
Absolutely. I think. I mean, and there's no reason not to explore an experiment. Yeah, exactly. You know, look, I mean, every, you know, as a director, especially, your goal is to communicate your vision to everyone you're working with as as closely as possible to what you're seeing. And then, of course, then inspire. And why not use this valuable tool?
00:44:04:05 - 00:44:28:05
Clark
There's no reason not to. Yeah, and of course I've not done it myself. But certainly, you know, I know actors a lot of times use music. I've done so as an actor, I've done this use music to prepare sometimes for scenes, you know, as a character or you, you pick out music that has an emotional impact, you know, that kind of brings you in line to the emotion of the scene that you're at.
00:44:28:23 - 00:44:42:02
Clark
I mean, it can be a great tool. Definitely. Directors often can use music to kind of, you know, on set while they're shooting. There's, you know, so many different ways that you can utilize music.
00:44:42:02 - 00:44:42:13
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:43:00 - 00:45:04:10
Clark
And why not? Like, there's no reason not to use it. So not just theory, you know, you've got it. Preproduction, production and of course in post you've got the music that's actually going to be part of the film, what the audience is listening to. But you can certainly use music as a tool to communicate to and to to reach emotional places in the story, you know, while you're making the film and like.
00:45:04:11 - 00:45:18:04
Cullen
Exactly. Yeah. So it's I mean, it's again, it's another tool in the toolbox and there's no point in and and you know, I just again want to reiterate to that that like anybody who's beginning that it's never black or white like, of.
00:45:18:04 - 00:45:18:17
Clark
Course, yeah you.
00:45:18:17 - 00:45:36:08
Cullen
Might you might just find that that writing with music is a distraction and that. Right. It boxes you into a, you know, a corner or whatever. Right. And so you might choose not to do that. There's no I think that's the really key point that I think we've both tried to make throughout all this is just that it's no, this is a device of it.
00:45:36:08 - 00:45:56:21
Clark
This is not that's the gospel making. It's it's look, there's everybody's got their own process that's going to be slightly different than everybody else's. I mean, this is why we have unique filmmakers. I hopefully your process is different that hopefully your work is unique and and it's a representation of your authentic voice. And that's what makes film and all other art wonderful.
00:45:57:13 - 00:46:16:16
Clark
When it is wonderful that it is truly an authentic expression of somebodys unique perspective. So absolutely. And it's, you know, and as I sit here and talk about these things with you and this is one of the things that I really love about doing this podcast with you, Colin, is that I get ideas. I'm like, Oh, you know, hey, you know, Oh, exactly.
00:46:16:16 - 00:46:30:05
Clark
Like with sound. Last time we were talking about sound and I'm like, you know, this is an area that I really could explore and experiment with a lot more as we do this one here, I'm thinking, well, you know, music is an area that I could really, you know, think I'm even thinking with the horror film that we're in pre-production with.
00:46:30:05 - 00:46:51:07
Clark
Okay, well, you know, like, there are a lot of areas where I think that I have not utilized this tool as much as I could and totally. So I'm kind of excited about that. I kind of get inspired. I get ideas, you know, And but that's the wonderful thing is that, you know, every time you sit down to work on a project there you have just this there's this huge arena of of options.
00:46:51:12 - 00:47:05:03
Clark
Sometimes it can be a little overwhelming. But that that's I feel like that's the fun of it is that it's like having all these paints in your paint box and you don't have to use the same ones over and over again. You can use all these new different colors. And so it's exciting, I think.
00:47:05:03 - 00:47:16:11
Cullen
And hopefully, you know, you're without a doubt on every project going to learn so much more about your process and kind of how you can use. So that's what I like about it.
00:47:16:12 - 00:47:29:01
Clark
Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, I think we've probably come to the end here of unless you can think of anything that we might have missed that was covered in Herzog's lesson here about music, I think we pretty much nailed it all.
00:47:29:08 - 00:47:29:15
Cullen
Yeah.
00:47:30:10 - 00:47:58:09
Clark
So, yeah, well, once again, we're at the end of another episode. Colin, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this conversation. I've got a few notes that I'm going to go run and take real quick things that I'm going to use on my on this word project I'm kind of excited about. Yeah, So definitely awesome. All right. Well, until next time when we will be covering lesson 17 editing, I hope everybody out there has a wonderful week and we will see you soon.
00:47:58:15 - 00:48:03:10
Cullen
Yeah. See you against my.