Clark
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast, as always. I'm Clark Coffey and with me.
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Cullen McFater.
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Clark
I was like, I just wanted to see if he had maybe, you know.
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Cullen
Which makes it.
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Clark
Yeah. I mean, my friends, I didn't. I didn't forget your name, I swear. Right. Come. That's it. No, but hey, welcome back, everybody. This is an exciting episode for us. This is episode 21, and it's the first episode of our new season, season two, where we have covered all the lessons in the master class, Herzog's master class, and now we're moving on to some new and exciting topics.
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Clark
And for this episode we're going to be discuss Scene Herzog's film Nomad in the Footsteps of Bruce Chatwin, which was released in 2019. Colman and I had both both watch this film and really enjoyed it. And we think there's some really exciting things to cover in the film. So if you've seen it, I think this will be a fantastic discussion of a lot of the ideas that are in that film.
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Clark
And if you haven't seen the film, I don't think that there's any reason you couldn't listen to this. It's not like there would be plot spoilers or anything like that. So whether it was whether you've seen it or not, I think this will be a good listen. If you've not seen it, hopefully will provide enough context that I think you'll still be able to get some value out of listening to this podcast.
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Clark
Of course, you're always welcome to go ahead and shut this off right now and go check out the film if you want and then come back to take a listen. But yeah, we're excited to kind of move in this new direction for us with the podcast.
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Cullen
Yeah, totally. I mean, it's a to put it, quite frankly, it's definitely I think we both agreed Herzog's most personal film.
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Clark
Absolutely. I really think so. I mean, at least in at least in a certain way. I mean, you know, I think, you know, Herzog is definitely a personal film maker. I think his films are all of his films are very personal, and they're made with very little, if any, compromise to his vision. I mean, you know, he's one of the few filmmakers where I would you could say every one of his films is is a is a just a like, clean distillation of his vision.
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Clark
Yeah. You know, But yeah, I think in a certain way this is I think we see Herzog at his sometimes at his most vulnerable and most emotional in some certain areas in this film. And we're going to discuss this clearly. You know, Bruce Chatwin was a really important person in Herzog's life. And, you know, it took him 30 years almost to make this film, you know, and a little bit about a little bit of background on Bruce Chatwin.
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Clark
So I actually wasn't aware of who he was before I saw this film. Colin I think you said you weren't.
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Cullen
I wasn't aware of him. I knew his books. I've heard he.
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Clark
Knew of, so I.
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Cullen
Didn't really know who he was.
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Clark
Right. And so, you know, I think his books are considered, you know, at least a couple like landmarks, really important works. But I just had not crossed them. But yeah, so Bruce Chatwin, he actually died in 1989. So like I said, it took about 30 years for Herzog to get around to making the film. He died of AIDS.
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Clark
Unfortunately, was one of the first more prominent kind of known people to actually contract and then succumb to that disease. But he was an English writer. He had studied archeology, but left his studies and went to travel the world to be a writer. And Songlines was one of his major works, maybe his most significant, but he also had an unpublished book called The Nomadic Alternative.
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Clark
I don't know if that's going to be published. They didn't really cover that in the film, but I guess it was recently found, right?
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Cullen
Yeah, it's a manuscript they found in a library.
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Clark
So hopefully they'll publish that. And he has written many other works. I don't mean to say that, you know, but he'd only written those two. But many other works. He was friends with Herzog. They actually met in the Australian outback in 83, so they knew each other for six years. But it's very clear watching this film that they that they were really important to each other.
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Clark
And I think Herzog uses their friendship and uses some aspects of Bruce's life and works to to dive into a lot of topics that he he's covered many, many times that are clearly an obsession for him.
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Cullen
So, I mean, they clearly describe it to us that, like their their relationship really hit off not only because of their, you know, similar interests, but one of the key interests which this movie is named after and which movie definitely heavily revolves around, is just this idea of walking and and how we all.
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Clark
Traveling.
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Cullen
Travel. Yeah, traveling.
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Clark
Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. So this is interesting. So because, you know, it's funny, when I was taking notes, I wrote the same thing. I said the note, the note I made to myself was, okay, the world opens up to those who walk on foot. And and I just you know, I put that in and I was listening to an outstanding Q&A discussion.
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Clark
I've not really got really a Q&A because it was just kind of more of a discussion that Herzog had made, had or had recorded. And it's up on YouTube. I think maybe, you know, when the film first came out. So maybe a couple of years ago or a year ago and a couple of our discussion. But he made a specific point in that Q&A to distinguish between walking and traveling.
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Clark
Yes. And and I think this is key. Like now that he's explained it, I understand he said, look, you know, you know, walking is just getting from A to B, traveling is something totally different.
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Cullen
And it's like, honestly, the difference between like a house and a home where it's like they mean the same thing. But, you know, a house building in a home is so.
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Clark
Much at home is so much more. A ride home is kind of where your heart is, kind of. Yeah. And so, you know, traveling is more about a journey, right? It's more about really experiencing that journey as opposed to just getting to A to B. So, yeah, so you're right. So right off the bat, you know, one of the in Herzog, this is clearly a common narrative thread for him, whether it's in his books, in his films, in his Q&A.
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Clark
Is that the world opens up to those who travel on foot. And, you know, he talked even just to tie it back into the the lessons, the masterclass lessons that we just covered. You know, he mentions that very specifically. He has got an exercise or a, you know, a homework assignment in those lessons that used to say, you know, pick a direction and walk a hundred miles.
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Clark
They've changed that because I think they're afraid people will get lost, know they end up coming back to liability problems. But definitely important. And I mean, let's talk about that for.
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Cullen
A little bit. I mean, I think Nicholas Shakespeare, who's Chaplin's biographer, who's somebody that's prominently interviewed in this, describes to Verner, he says, you know, you were one of the only people that fundamentally understood what he meant by that. Yeah. Which is a really interesting moment because it kind of you know, it proves that it's not you know, as you said, it's not just, you know, walking in.
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Cullen
It's like you can you can meet a few people if you walk. It's it's like an entire to them, an entire lifestyle around.
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Clark
Right.
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Cullen
This traveling on foot and this whole like that's how Herzog describes himself getting stories so often and things like that.
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Clark
Yeah, absolutely. And it's you know, he even go so far as to say, you know, it's you know, it's it's not hiking. It's not traveling in that sense. You're not bringing everything on your back. You don't have, you know, a tent and a sleeping bag and, you know, a week's worth of food and on and on and on.
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Clark
He's like, you bring the bare necessities. Because the whole point the whole point is that in the people that you meet on your journey, you're finding stories.
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Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, absolutely. So it's this is something that they both shared. They were both passionate about it. It's in the title Nomad, someone who has no home but is always traveling. So definitely an important idea in this film. And, you know, and it's broken up into chapters and it pretty much just permeates the entire film. And it's something that I, you know, one of the things I thought the film was was fantastic.
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Clark
And I was really kind of spellbound by the film, and it was a great reminder to me and kind of inspired me that I've got to get more of that going on in my life, either like literally, you know, where I'm actually out, you know, walking and really trying to pick up on and meet stories and meeting people.
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Clark
But like figuratively too, though, just like being more present in my day to day life and being open to all those stories that exist out there everywhere. So it's I think it's like something you can cut, you can do literally, but you can also do kind of figuratively, maybe in other aspects of your life, right? I mean, we all we all have to make a living.
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Clark
And, you know, we have our obligations and responsibilities. Not all of us can kind of walk the earth, you know, or travel here.
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Cullen
Yeah, exactly. Especially to do so where you are actually doing it for a living, you know, as Chaplin was, where his his career revolved around this, this idea of meeting and understanding and, you know, getting in their heads really in a good way of these these different cultures and things like that.
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Clark
And in the the in the film, you know, we were kind of focused on a handful of of geographic locations were focus on England and we focus on Patagonia in South America and we're focused on the Australian outback. So we've got kind of three pretty, you know, distinct locations that that Chatwin was particularly fond of and where I guess Herzog and him had interactions and stories to share about those locations.
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Cullen
In Patagonia really is, is the root of Chaplin's curiosity. Because as a child he describes and this is pretty much where the movie opens, is that he describes the fact that his grandmother had this thing. She called it the brontosaurus skin understanding. Understand what you know, she said. He says that he she had two ideas of what two different prehistoric creatures were, brontosaurus and mammoths.
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Cullen
And the mammoth lived in Siberia, so it had to be a brontosaurus, right?
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Clark
It was like the only the only two prehistoric animals she had.
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Cullen
Turns out that it was a slot giant.
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Clark
Musket.
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Cullen
But.
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Clark
But it inspired him. Yeah. To such an extent as a child that he's like, I'm going to go find the origin of this quote unquote brontosaurus skin. Yeah. And I mean, I don't know. Do you have any, any kind of parallels to that? I know for me, when I was a little kid, you know, there were a handful of like, for instance, I named my my production company after a book that I had first read when I was probably like eight.
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Clark
Mm hmm. That so inspired me that it's like still with me, it seems like on a daily basis. Do you have anything like that? What? Like, what's your brontosaurus skin?
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Cullen
Gee, I don't. I mean, I love dinosaurs. As a kid, we used to visit out in Alberta. There's the Badlands, which is, like Drumheller is this town in Alberta that's famous for its dinosaur museum. So I used to go out there. I just always like I grew up around a lot of nature, too, as I assume you did in Missouri.
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Cullen
Yeah. So I do, you know, there even just as a kid, my schoolyard would have deer and turtles and things like that, you know?
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Clark
But was there anything like a totem like it was, You know, if you don't have any, that's okay. I was just curious.
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Cullen
You know, I don't Yeah, I don't think there was any, like, specific items. Specific. Yeah. No, but there were certainly ideas that that that made it through my life and kind of inspired, you know, shaped me as a as a person. More locations for me and perhaps maybe that also was in relation to Herzog as well getting delayed.
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Clark
Or going to. Yeah well that's obviously vital locations. Landscapes are very key and we'll get we're definitely going to cover some of that. But yeah, so I guess just to continue, so so Bruce is mesmerized by this quote unquote brontosaurus skin. He goes to its origin and finds out that it's, you know, basically it's actually a piece of a giant sloth skull that was found in a cave on the southern tip of South America.
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Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
Juliana Yeah, but that kind of like spurred on his lifelong affinity for archeology, anthropology, travel. And I thought that was a pretty interesting.
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Cullen
It's also interesting, too, because clearly for other people there's connections there too, because he meets Herzog meets this woman, this German woman who talks about how when she was a kid, she used to ride a horse up and down the cave that the sloth skin was found in. And she was. So she gets.
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Clark
Kicked out or something.
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Cullen
And they did authorities, because they thought the cave was collapsing. Collapsing is like the lack of the feet. So they they said, we'll take your horses away if you keep doing that. But no, there's so there's clearly this and maybe this is related, maybe it's unintentional, but because later in the film, you know, not too much later, but in a few scenes away he they talk about how like there's this magnetism that might have brought our culture there and brought our species there to settle in this place in England.
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Cullen
So maybe there's this. Maybe Herzog is alluding to the idea that there are certain places on Earth that just for some reason may entice people because.
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Clark
It just attract.
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Cullen
Yeah, Yeah. Because there's all these stories about, you know, these people, the sloth in this cave in Patagonia.
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Clark
Well, there's something, you know, interesting, too. I think, you know, Herzog and like, a lot of these ideas are kind of they're sprinkled throughout the whole film. So we may kind of jump back and forth just a little bit. But, you know, were the ideas that Herzog is constantly kind of, you know, preaching, I guess, for lack of a better word, is this idea that facts don't make truth, that there is like a greater esthetic, ecstatic truth, and that that's not about just an amalgam of facts.
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Clark
And it's interesting to me that we start off this film right off the bat with what is, in essence, a false story. It's not a brontosaurus skin. It's not even close to a brontosaurus skin. But the story of that, the truth was still a vital a vital thing to Bruce. It was absolutely the essence of truth for him in the sense that this is what kind of led him down.
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Clark
His life's journey, his calling. So, yes, it wasn't truly a brontosaurus skin, but it it I just find that kind of fascinating.
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Cullen
You know, not totally. I mean, it's again, in that comes up multiple times in the movie to not not nestle the bronzer of skin but the the idea of truth versus fact which is of course something that we covered, you know, three episodes ago.
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Clark
And there's going to be yeah, there's going to be a couple other kind of, I guess, places where this pops up in this film. And that's an interesting question to ask. I always ask this of all of the films that I watch of Herzog's is what was manufactured here. What did Herzog make of I'm always trying to look for like the fake quote.
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Cullen
Or we've we've talked about this several times, too, in our conversations about the movie. But that the that Herzog is so very much more on camera than he is in most of his movies. But at the same time, also very much and this is something that he does in in other documentaries as well, but very much leads the interviews and leaves those points in the edit.
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Cullen
So he will, you know, intentionally plant an idea in someone's head when he's he'll ask someone a question and almost answer it for them to get them to answer a certain way. Like you're almost like you were coaching an actor and then but that leaves that in like he doesn't cut that out and make it appear as though that person was speaking on their own to the idea He, he will, you know, finish the sentence almost with like a hook.
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Clark
Yeah, And it's true.
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Cullen
It's so it's interesting.
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Clark
And I think throughout the film, I mean, we see examples of it. You know, it's we we talked about like right off the bat when we introduced the introduced the film that this is it seems to be a much more kind of intimate and personal films and maybe some of his others. And, you know, clearly he's talking about somebody that meant a lot to him.
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Clark
But yeah, I mean, in the in the way that the film is shot, you know, we see interviews are shot very simply. One camera, we don't have two cameras cutting back and forth. We don't even have interviews. Often. You know, spliced with B-roll to kind of hide cuts. Whenever he wants to show an item to the camera, he simply picks it up and just, you know, literally talks to his camera operator.
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Clark
You know, let's focus in on this. We don't have we don't have fancy polished insert shots, things like this. And like you said, too, we see a lot more of Herzog. He's actually on camera, especially when he's talking with the with Chaplin's biographer. We hear him interacting with the interview subjects quite a bit. And like you said, he's often leading them.
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Clark
He's asking very specific leading questions. He's you can kind of get a sense that he's trying to drag something specific out of them and we'll come across a few and kind of highlight a few areas where it seems that it's significant in the film. But yeah, I mean, I think overall all of those things together really add a sense of almost what did you say, like homemade.
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Cullen
This is now I said hand they sort of it's feel like handmade or homemade. Yeah yeah it it really like you said it doesn't have the polish of like a perfect you know and I, I referenced this earlier but the the like you know you look at like a Netflix documentary and it's so flashy and it's very, very, you know, high caliber, lots of sound effects, insert shots of everything in special specialized imagery and stuff like that.
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Cullen
Whereas this is.
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Clark
Because yeah, you know, it feels like it's much like.
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Cullen
Herzog sat down with someone to have a conversation and had a camera operator with him. Yeah. And so, like, again, you pointed out this, but I want to emphasize at that moment when the man hands him a little statue and he's like, he he pretty much tells the guy to stop talking for a second and is just like, just hang on a second.
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Cullen
Let me show this to the camera. And it's it's in there. It's not like they just cut to the shot.
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Clark
They could have I mean, he's heard it most and most do, right? I mean, I you know, it's it's kind of and I often do, too. And this is kind of interesting. I will usually remove a lot of the hairs and arms and you know, because I often shoot in an interview with two cameras and I've got B-roll.
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Clark
And so, you know, I really take some time to kind of cut that down to really smooth that out. And it's kind of nice. I actually enjoyed that. Herzog left that in here. It does. It gives you a real sense of intimacy. It's very personal, and you feel like you're kind of there more and it gives you a sense that you're actually in the room and this is really happening.
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Clark
And that definitely stood out to me, too. And I feel it's certainly appropriate for the subject matter. I think it would have been a it was a nice distinction. You know, he starts right off the bat, Herzog does, by saying this is going to be a different kind of biography. Yeah.
00:19:05:21 - 00:19:06:10
Cullen
Yes.
00:19:06:11 - 00:19:25:04
Clark
Yeah. That it's not going to be some chronological, you know, your average normal biopic. And I'm so glad that it's not because for me personally, at least for me personally, I'm kind of tired of the regular old fashioned, you know, chronological biography. And it.
00:19:25:05 - 00:19:28:13
Cullen
Just doesn't give you anything really, other than it does what a Wikipedia page.
00:19:28:13 - 00:19:52:04
Clark
Doesn't. It doesn't. I really have to say that I left this film. So I again, I had no idea who Bruce Chatwin was before I sat down to watch this film. By the end of this film, I feel like I got a sense of his soul, of what propelled him deeply, and I was really interested to go grab one of his books and sit down and start to read more.
00:19:52:20 - 00:20:13:11
Clark
And I, you know, just to kind of to compare, you know, I think it was the day after I saw this film, I watched there's a John Belushi documentary that I think was on Showtime. I think it's produced by Showtime as well, if I'm not mistaken. And it's strange because, you know, I didn't know who Bruce was before this, but I definitely, of course, knew who John Belushi was before.
00:20:13:11 - 00:20:33:14
Clark
I watch that film. And not only did I know who he was, but I'm like the perfect audience for this film. I am a fan. I'm intrigued. I think this is interesting. I want to know more like I'm primed, you know, I'm primed. And the film was just kind of like this paint by numbers, you know, Here is his life and chronology and it's kind of, you know, he's like unknown.
00:20:33:14 - 00:20:51:02
Clark
And now he's famous and now he's dead. And I just, you know, I didn't leave that film feeling like I really and truly had a deeper sense of this man's soul. And so I was really appreciative that Herzog did it this way. So.
00:20:52:02 - 00:20:55:19
Cullen
Yeah, no, it totally, exactly is. It totally is.
00:20:57:20 - 00:21:09:12
Cullen
Just like you said, it's it's within this. And perhaps it is because it's such a personal film for Herzog, whereas, you know, the people that were making the John Belushi biopic probably didn't know John, but who knows?
00:21:09:13 - 00:21:09:21
Clark
Yeah.
00:21:10:06 - 00:21:40:00
Cullen
You know, So there's there's that element, too. That could just be that it because it was so intertwined with Herzog's life and Herzog's feelings and emotion. Right. But, you know, there's this entire overarching narrative of this movie about the human condition and about how traveling on foot is what has defined our species great leaps forward. And what's interesting is that I almost find that that's what makes this documentary so unique, is that it's not, again, like you said, it's not just a biopic that's paint by numbers, you know.
00:21:40:05 - 00:21:56:12
Cullen
Okay, He grew up in Minnesota and then went to school in, you know, Memphis and then blah, blah, blah. Like it's it's about it's it's more about Bruce's interests than it is about Bruce himself. But you learn so much about Bruce through those interests as well.
00:21:56:13 - 00:22:12:23
Clark
I would even I mean, I would make an argument. I would make an argument, Hang in there with me for a second. I'd make an argument that this is actually one could make an argument, let's say that that this is actually more about Herzog than it is Bruce And it and that Herzog is actually using Bruce. And I mean no disrespect.
00:22:12:23 - 00:22:33:10
Clark
I mean, I think, you know, it's not like Herzog is being an egotistical person and he's like using Bruce's life, you know, to tell us more about himself. I don't mean that at all. I mean that that Bruce is kind of a mirror to Herzog or a, you know, a way for Herzog to kind of see and express himself in this film, if that makes sense.
00:22:34:04 - 00:22:55:06
Clark
So not from any kind of place of ego or disrespect to Chatwin, but that I mean, I think we're really learning a tremendous amount about Herzog as well. Yeah, but but I would agree with you. I mean, I think we're you know, this film is about what it means to be human. And I think that's exactly what these two men in their work were trying to uncover and trying to understand.
00:22:55:06 - 00:23:13:22
Clark
And that's why they, you know, traveling on foot was so important. We're going to talk in a second about landscapes of the soul, how landscapes are so vital, how Herzog uses them to try to find new ways into understanding what it means to be human here and what we're doing.
00:23:14:03 - 00:23:35:06
Cullen
What's also funny about it is that. Herzog You kind of realize that Herzog coined a lot of his like phrases and interests from Bruce. So there's this line where Bruce mentioned, or Herzog mentions that that Bruce described a character in one of his very early movies as deranged and as demented, and that it was the landscape. It was a landscape.
00:23:35:12 - 00:23:55:19
Cullen
The landscape looks at this This had an effect of derangement on this character from any end. But I just think that's so interesting because, like, deranged, demented, those descriptors are something that comes up so much in Herzog's work, in his, you know, not only in his masterclass, but in, you know, his documentary about Antarctica Encounters in a World.
00:23:55:19 - 00:24:13:17
Cullen
He describes the penguins as deranged and stuff like that. And so it's such a like thing that permeates all of his work. And yet, you know, you kind of realize that the origin of that was Bruce Chatwin. Description of his his first, you know, arguably his first major movie.
00:24:14:02 - 00:24:15:12
Clark
Right. Which is.
00:24:16:12 - 00:24:19:12
Cullen
I'm blanking on the title of it, The.
00:24:20:07 - 00:24:21:00
Clark
Signs of Life.
00:24:21:00 - 00:24:22:12
Cullen
Science of Life Signs of Life. For some.
00:24:22:12 - 00:24:24:00
Clark
Reason, I think 1868.
00:24:24:00 - 00:24:24:10
Cullen
Signs of.
00:24:24:10 - 00:24:26:15
Clark
Late. 68. Sorry, I wasn't trying to put you on the spot.
00:24:26:17 - 00:24:32:19
Cullen
It's just I was I was I was on the street the whole time because I was it's one of those things where you're trying it like you're describing it. I know so many things.
00:24:33:06 - 00:24:53:23
Clark
Don't worry about it. There's so many things to cover here that it's easy to do. Yeah, but no, I wasn't trying to put you on the spot, but just to give some context. Right. So 1968 Herzog's, I think arguably his first significant film. Yeah, they had an audience, significant feature. He did have numerous shorts before that, but I think he considers this to be his first major film.
00:24:54:06 - 00:25:19:22
Clark
And you know, let's just jump in. I think this is good Segway. Let's talk about landscapes here. Yeah. So in that film and Herzog is very self-referential in this film, and this is why I kind of say I feel like this is at least as much about Herzog as it is about Chatwin. You know, Herzog mentions, I think, five or six of his own films in this film, and using those films as a way to kind of highlight or explain or illuminate their relationship.
00:25:20:13 - 00:25:59:06
Clark
You know, landscapes are obviously an obsession with Herzog. He's talked about this through, you know, ever since ever since this film in 1968, where the core kernel of that film was this this large expanse, this huge field that was filled with 10,000 windmills. And Herzog came upon this landscape and was just like, it sounds like from, you know, kind of I won't use I don't think I'll use the exact words he uses, but it sounds like he was just overwhelmed with esthetic or at at this site, this landscape and that.
00:25:59:08 - 00:26:36:04
Clark
And it was so overwhelming to him or so inspiring to him that it became like that. The reason for the entire film. Yeah, he basically wrote the film in order to express and share this landscape and built a story around it. And it's he mentions that in this documentary. And of course, this documentary, you know, they talk at great length about how Chatwin was always searching for, you know, these these wild characters and strange dreamers and, you know, these these strange landscapes that try to illuminate the nature of human existence.
00:26:36:07 - 00:26:58:22
Clark
Mm hmm. And there are so many really beautiful landscapes here. And I notice, you know, at least to me, a lot of these landscapes that he and he holds on them for, you know, much longer than most films would. Hold on. Yeah. Yeah. And, and to the point where I feel like their meaning almost changes as he holds for you know, second after second after second.
00:26:58:22 - 00:27:23:08
Clark
And, you know, sometimes maybe 15, 30 seconds he's holding onto something and, you know, maybe we're cutting in a bit or maybe it's static. But as he narrates his film, it's almost like he's I can feel like the meaning change from here is just a pretty landscape, too. Like, here's a there's a strangeness that starts to come through the the screen to me.
00:27:23:08 - 00:27:43:04
Clark
And and I you know, he's Herzog is always talking about seeking the strange in the landscape as opposed to the beautiful in the landscape which know a lot of a lot of filmmakers, a lot of cinematographers are kind of you know, I think more compelled or drawn to trying to trying to express the beauty of a landscape as opposed to the strangeness.
00:27:43:13 - 00:28:04:19
Clark
And it's one of the things I think, that really separates Herzog from some of these other filmmakers. But but yeah, it's a constant theme and it's really kind of mesmerizing, I think, you know. Herzog talks about landscapes of the soul, and I think, you know, of course, these are all just my interpretations. I'm certainly not Herzog, as I always say, probably in every podcast.
00:28:04:19 - 00:28:23:00
Clark
I never try to put words in his mouth. But, you know, I think he really sees landscape as a connection through time to our ancestors and sees them as ways of trying, of communicating through time and space and trying to understand who we are.
00:28:23:00 - 00:28:46:12
Cullen
And he describes it through this. One of the points in which he describes it as this vista of like there's cave paintings and it looks over this beautiful vista of this valley, this waterfall. And his point is essentially like, you know, standing here, I'm looking at the exact same thing that people who painted these cave walls did. And it relates directly to when they get to Australia and they start talking to the Aboriginal Australians.
00:28:47:17 - 00:28:57:11
Clark
And he says, is there still an echo of their voices within this landscape. Exactly. Still hear them and and does it connect us? Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:28:57:18 - 00:29:18:02
Cullen
And that and that goes right with the songlines, which is this idea that landscapes are literally used in conjunction with with song to both tell distance. And there's the anecdote about when they were in the car and how the car would speed up. But they start singing faster because they had to account for the distance they were traveling while singing a song.
00:29:19:01 - 00:29:31:12
Cullen
But this is something that in, you know, they all discussed this idea of like, it's like the chicken and the egg. Like, it wasn't that our ancestors created these songs off of the landscape. It's that the landscape created the songs at the creation of the landscape.
00:29:31:20 - 00:29:43:22
Clark
Well, let's take a step. Let's take a couple steps back. Let's let's talk about that just a little bit. So I apologize if it seems like we're kind of all over the place. But but, you know, I think this film is kind of all over the.
00:29:43:22 - 00:29:46:00
Cullen
Themes really permeate every game. Yeah.
00:29:46:06 - 00:30:11:08
Clark
So let's talk about that a little bit. So, you know, one of Chaplin's major contributions as a writer, he wrote a book called Songlines and Songlines. He is this is his based on his work with Central Australian Aboriginal tribes. And this idea that they have and boy, forgive me if I don't, obviously I'm going to understand this like a a person who is very clearly not an Aboriginal Australian.
00:30:11:12 - 00:30:49:17
Clark
My understanding of it is extremely limited, but from what I gathered from the film, it's this way of that that they developed songs in a time before any other navigational tools to help them remember, like mnemonics, like how to get through this barren, desolate desert of a central Australia, the outback. And, and I guess it's also very integrated, very significantly and holistically into their kind of creation mythology or, you know, the mythology that of just yeah, the mythology period.
00:30:50:07 - 00:31:13:16
Clark
And, and so Bruce was I think, one of the first people to ever come to an understanding of this and write about it, if I'm not mistaken, at least where the works became popular. And so that's what you're referring to when you're talking about the traveling in the car. And they had to start to sing faster if they sped up or go slower, because that was that's how it was drawn to the landscape.
00:31:13:16 - 00:31:44:03
Clark
It was it was tied so integrally to the landscape. And it's an extraordinary, you know, I think for for all of us who've who've not ever thought of song in that way, it's extraordinarily beautiful, you know? And Bruce felt like it was a way to kind of understand the beginnings of language, beginnings of poetry, and kind of try to get to a very like, you know, to almost like the beginnings of that, the Big Bang of that, if you will, for humanity.
00:31:44:03 - 00:31:54:18
Clark
Yeah. Where those things where language and poetry and art first started to originate within human, you know, humankind. And it really is interesting.
00:31:55:00 - 00:32:18:09
Cullen
In the relationship between these cultures, too. One of the points they also make is about how, you know, we as a species literally walk to as far as we possibly could. We went from the, you know, central Africa to the southern tip of South America, which is technically the furthest possible place from the starting point. Right. And they did.
00:32:18:10 - 00:32:32:03
Cullen
But it's all you know, again, it all comes back to this idea of like not honestly creation in a literal religious sense, but creation in terms of just like the creation of our culture, the creation of our.
00:32:32:11 - 00:32:32:20
Clark
Yeah.
00:32:34:17 - 00:33:13:00
Cullen
I mean, and again, it's I v I know we kind of use the word human conditional on Herzog as well, but it's very, quite literally, you know, that's what this is about is what makes us human. What, what are the elements that connect all of these cultures from all over the world? And I just I mean, I don't know, there's something really fascinating and intriguing about just the work that now, mind you, there are people who and some of these cultures who kind of don't like or see it almost as a bastardization of their culture to reveal the secrets that right.
00:33:13:03 - 00:33:15:23
Cullen
You know are so well.
00:33:16:00 - 00:33:37:19
Clark
And there is they make Yeah, they do. They do kind of cover that a bit where you know where Herzog does interview some a specific Aboriginal scholar and kind of asks and he he does kind of try to lead him but does ask you know but it was about a different book. It actually was not about the book.
00:33:37:19 - 00:33:41:13
Clark
Yeah. Not more of Chatwin books but a different book. Mind you.
00:33:41:13 - 00:33:43:01
Cullen
This book that Chatwin really loved.
00:33:44:02 - 00:34:12:07
Clark
Correct. This book was an inspiration to Chatwin, and the book was called Songs of Central Australia, and it was a book that translated The Songlines, the Aboriginal Songlines, and put them in kind of obviously they're translated, so they had to be kind of manipulated as far as, you know, their their meter and everything. So they weren't literally the same songs, but they were an attempt to translate them so that someone who was not an Aboriginal could speak or could understand sorry, could understand them in some way.
00:34:12:13 - 00:34:38:15
Clark
And there was some kind of, you know, this was supposed to be a sacred knowledge that this was not supposed to, you know, for the uninitiated, this with this was not appropriate for this to be known to other people. And it definitely does seem like there there is a contingency of people who think that that's an appropriate It is kind of funny to know, like we had talked about previously, Herzog definitely tries to lead this man, Shaun Angels Pinon, I think, is his name.
00:34:39:18 - 00:34:51:06
Clark
It tries to kind of lead him in this interview to say, you know, you know, this book's not for me, right? And the guy's flat. And Shawn's like, It's not for me. And Herzog says, it's it's, you know, should this book be locked away?
00:34:51:06 - 00:34:57:03
Cullen
Should it be leveraged? And the guy just it's funny, the guy sort of goes like, well, I mean, I don't think you know.
00:34:57:03 - 00:34:58:19
Clark
I just it's like they're not that far.
00:34:58:23 - 00:34:59:09
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:59:10 - 00:35:08:05
Clark
You kind of almost see it, you know, he kind of smiles. You can see a kind of smile. But it is an example of where we talked about previously, where Herzog clearly trying to kind of lead.
00:35:08:06 - 00:35:09:02
Cullen
Yeah. Herzog need.
00:35:09:02 - 00:35:10:03
Clark
Him in this interview.
00:35:10:03 - 00:35:11:00
Cullen
That pointed. Yeah.
00:35:11:08 - 00:35:30:05
Clark
And maybe this is what Herzog thinks. You know I'm not I'm not sure. But it could very well be the Herzog thinks that this book should be burned or should be banned or should not have been written. I don't know. But he's clearly kind of pushing in that direction. But I think it so interestingly ties into, you know, this idea of landscapes.
00:35:30:13 - 00:36:05:21
Clark
And it's you know, if it's almost as if Herzog's films are his songlines. Yeah. And yeah. And I just find that extremely fascinating that you have this, this, this nomadic, ancient human culture where they're traversing both a figurative and a literal landscape and creating culture to move them through that and to help them understand it. And that is exactly what we do with all of our art.
00:36:05:21 - 00:36:28:22
Clark
And it's it's so clearly what Herzog is doing with his films as he travels the world and films and all of these locations he is searching for using, you know, these are his songlines, his films are his songlines. It's it's his navigating through his life. It's really beautiful that we have these to look at. And of course, they they're not just his life.
00:36:28:22 - 00:36:50:00
Clark
It is this, you know, this combined, you know, consciousness that we all share as humans. It's just fascinating to me. So it's so obvious, clear that they would be good friends. But it's just it's so beautiful. This idea of songlines. I can't wait to to read some more about it. Maybe I won't start off with the sacred Knowledge book.
00:36:50:00 - 00:36:51:16
Clark
Maybe I'll start off with Chatwin. But.
00:36:52:06 - 00:36:55:04
Cullen
Yeah, you'd have to travel a little bit far for that. But try it.
00:36:55:14 - 00:37:24:09
Clark
Yeah. So I'm really. So I. I find it to be quite fascinating and I think their friendship was very fascinating. And I think it, it, it tells us a little bit more about Herzog as well as a filmmaker. You know, it's we've talked about the basis of their friendship was this idea of, you know, traveling on foot that landscapes are important, you know, prisms through which we can see different aspects of our of our own condition.
00:37:24:16 - 00:37:45:16
Clark
I and I think both of them were fascinated with this idea that it's about the strangeness of something. Right. And, you know, we're not and this is such a huge difference. We're not talking about, you know, in the same way that there's, you know, traveling and tourism are not the same thing. Right. Those are radically different things. It's you know, Herzog talks about how tourism is is such a profound sin.
00:37:45:17 - 00:37:46:01
Cullen
Yes.
00:37:46:01 - 00:38:03:23
Clark
Traveling is not the same as like, you know, taking a landscape photo to try to make it look beautiful as opposed to photographing a landscape and and finding the surreal right in the strangeness, finding it, they couldn't be more different.
00:38:04:06 - 00:38:27:01
Cullen
And well, maybe let's let's let's take a look at two Yeah. The idea to hear that where and I think this again is something that carries on through the whole movie and it's near the end of the movie where Herzog really puts into words. But I think it applies the whole movie where but this movie is very much just like you described before, very much, in my opinion.
00:38:27:01 - 00:38:38:02
Cullen
In your opinion as much about Herzog as it is about Chatwin. And there's a point where Herzog literally says, you know, I am not the protagonist, which I find so interesting. Yes, because.
00:38:38:19 - 00:38:39:15
Clark
Because he is.
00:38:39:15 - 00:38:58:01
Cullen
Because he will. He is. But this movie also and I want the reason I want to bring this up now before the end is just because I want to talk about how it really does affect the whole movie, where we, I think, came to sort of an understanding that this movie may be almost like a poetic understand or a poetic reflection on Herzog own mortality.
00:38:58:09 - 00:39:20:20
Cullen
Yeah. And I just think that there's a quote that you mentioned and you reminded me of of a friend of ours who knows Herzog. And she once said to him, When you start making films, you'll be dead. And described that his reaction to that was very much one of not initially fear. Yeah, but he was taken aback by it.
00:39:20:20 - 00:39:51:22
Cullen
And I like that that there's this idea of, you know, we all, of course, are understand to a degree mortality now. But there's something about this film that really makes it seem like it really reminds me of just a twilight moment of someone's life. And I'm using Bruce's the end of Bruce's life and, you know, using that almost as a as a canvas to relate to a life well lived like.
00:39:51:22 - 00:40:15:19
Cullen
Herzog's Yeah, that wasn't cut short. And so throughout this entire movie, there's so many moments where and it almost to me, almost answers the question of why Herzog is so leading with his questions and why he leaves that in so much of him asking a question and then pointing it into a direction. And it's almost because to me, Herzog's making a point.
00:40:16:03 - 00:40:41:15
Cullen
He's not necessarily asking a question, he's making a point, and then almost not necessarily seeking approval from the subjects of the interview, but almost getting their impressions on the point that Herzog's making, which I find really interesting. And even just when he's interviewing Chaplin's wife, the questions are so personal. And so they're not just he's not just, you know, how did you meet Chatwin, How, you know, no love, no nothing much to them.
00:40:42:23 - 00:41:04:10
Cullen
The cameras couldn't you know, the cameras could not be there. And I feel like they'd have the identical conversation about what Chatwin meant to them and who they are and how they, you know, came out better. People because of knowing. CHAPMAN Yeah. And so there's this whole element where Herzog is very closed off and Herzog is very but there's also this super vulnerable.
00:41:04:17 - 00:41:07:14
Cullen
You know, there's really vulnerable moments of this movie that he's in.
00:41:08:00 - 00:41:09:16
Clark
There really is. There really are.
00:41:09:21 - 00:41:25:09
Cullen
I just think that's it's such a and again, the reason that, you know, there's a way that we could have done this, this whole overview of the movie chronologically, but it's difficult to do and it almost doesn't do the movie justice because it's almost a movie you have to watch twice because it's not really a chronological movie, if that makes sense.
00:41:25:22 - 00:41:47:01
Cullen
No, it's it's a movie filled with ideas. And so if it seems like, you know, as we've mentioned, if it seems like we're kind of going all over the place where it's like, oh, here's this happens at the end and this happens at the beginning, this it's because the movie's ideas really do kind of have this ebb and flow to them where it's like, you know, there's things that Herzog say at the end of the film that completely apply to the beginning of the film.
00:41:47:04 - 00:41:49:16
Cullen
And it's just a really interesting movie because of that where it's.
00:41:49:16 - 00:41:50:11
Clark
Like, Absolutely.
00:41:50:20 - 00:41:51:19
Cullen
Yeah, it's.
00:41:52:05 - 00:41:52:17
Clark
Totally.
00:41:53:03 - 00:41:53:20
Cullen
Intriguing. Yeah.
00:41:54:05 - 00:42:12:10
Clark
And, you know, so a couple of things like, yeah. And so every time you mention something, it makes me think of something else. I'm like, I'm scared that I won't be able to fit in everything that I had kind of thought as I was watching this film, and I did watch it a couple of times. But you talk about it, you know, being so, so personal and, you know, there's this really beautiful chapter.
00:42:12:10 - 00:42:39:08
Clark
It's in the film. It's chapter six, Chapman's rucksack. And basically the gist is, is that Chatwin had a leather rucksack that he carried around with him everywhere. And according to Herzog, he had walked for thousands of miles or kilometers at least, sorry, with with this rucksack and Herzog was was visiting with Chatwin when he was at the tail end of his life, really sick and suffering from AIDS.
00:42:39:17 - 00:42:51:10
Clark
And and Herzog was talking to him and he had talked about how they should, you know, what was it refresh my memory. It was like they were talking about maybe going on a journey or something.
00:42:51:10 - 00:42:54:07
Cullen
And yeah, I don't remember specifics of it, But Chatwin says.
00:42:54:07 - 00:43:11:16
Clark
He looks down at his legs, he looks down at his legs, and they're like, wasted away. And Chatwin says, You know, I Oh, that's what. CHATWIN He was. Chatwin was kind of he was kind of going in and out of consciousness and and he would kind of wake up from his, you know, from a lapse of consciousness and be like, I must be on the road, I must be on the road.
00:43:11:23 - 00:43:27:16
Clark
I've got to be on the road again. And then Herzog is like, Well, we can go. And Chatwin looks down at his legs and they're wasted away. And he looks at his rucksack and he's like, I can't carry this. It's it's too heavy. And Herzog says, I will carry it for you. I am strong enough. I will carry it for you.
00:43:28:03 - 00:43:34:02
Clark
And it you definite Ali, see a vulnerability and an emotionality in Herzog there. That is just.
00:43:34:11 - 00:43:35:21
Cullen
That just he's on the verge.
00:43:35:21 - 00:43:58:14
Clark
Which is not to say which is not to say that that Herzog some cold, you know, sterile person. He's not it matter of fact, interestingly, he's quite, you know, quite this interesting contradiction. And Bruce even defines him thusly. And it's interesting, but Bruce is a compendium. So as a compendium of contradictions, he's tough yet vulnerable, affectionate but remote, austere and sensual.
00:43:58:19 - 00:44:28:12
Clark
Not well adjusted for the strains of everyday life, but functioning efficiently, efficiently in extreme conditions. And it's such a wonderful and apt description. Of course, I don't know Herzog at all. I certainly don't know him like Bruce did. But from what I see in his works and read from him and his speaking and writings, I definitely get the sense and, you know, so it's not that that that Herzog is as cold in his other films or anything.
00:44:28:12 - 00:44:47:16
Clark
It's not that at all. But it's it's a certain type, I think just a different type of emotionality that you don't see from him in most other films. But it was it was definitely touching and definitely impacted me as a viewer. But you really can see how close they were. Yeah, and then but, but then that ties right in.
00:44:47:16 - 00:45:09:19
Clark
So we go right from there and you talk, you know, Herzog is, you know, like like I said, ostensibly this film is about Bruce, but there's so much in here about Herzog. You know, he mentions, you know, so many of his films. He goes back to discuss signs of life. Cobra Verde What about Scream of Stone, where that green ants dream?
00:45:09:19 - 00:45:34:06
Clark
He brings up all of these films in this film, and specifically here with this rucksack and Chatwin, he talks about Screen of Stone, where he does take Chaplin's rucksack with him on this journey, on this adventure to make to shoot this film. And I guess in this documentary, he's meeting with a guide. He's talking to one of the guides there that was with that bloke on.
00:45:34:07 - 00:45:34:15
Cullen
Yeah, that.
00:45:34:15 - 00:45:53:18
Clark
Was with them. That was at the right and they're back at the location of where they shot some of screen of stone. And it's so funny that because this guide, the person who's there on camera with Herzog, again, this is one of those moments where Herzog is actually on camera with him, which is kind of rare. So we've got this two shot of both of them.
00:45:54:05 - 00:46:19:19
Clark
And, you know, and the guy the other guy there is the the guide is kind of talking more about Herzog. And Herzog is like, no, I'm not the protagonist, not the protagonist of this film. And he kind of says it a couple of times. I think it and this is hysterical and this is what this is what we're talking about when when we talk about Herzog being a compendium of contradiction, because right, as he says, I'm not the protagonist.
00:46:19:19 - 00:46:44:19
Clark
He then goes on to tell this amazing story about how he was when they were shooting Scream of Stone. He was stuck in a snowstorm for like 40 or 50 hours on the side of a mountain and had nothing but a piece of chocolate. And this rucksack to sit on and how they almost died and had to be, you know, hell of fact out of there, like, you know, after like a two plus day storm.
00:46:45:05 - 00:46:48:15
Clark
And and I'm just thinking to myself, yeah, you're not the protagonist.
00:46:49:10 - 00:47:02:20
Cullen
Yeah. I mean, that's what's so funny is that it's, again, so apt and so, like, it's such a it's such a raw form of what Herzog is.
00:47:02:20 - 00:47:04:17
Clark
I don't mean this in any way.
00:47:04:17 - 00:47:07:22
Cullen
It's great. I mean, like, that's what I one of my favorite things about it.
00:47:08:06 - 00:47:31:06
Clark
And it's and this and this is like, you can't manufacture this, okay? I feel like I feel like if this were in many other filmmakers hands to to state that a film is about somebody else. But then to go on to mention half a dozen of your own films, to tell so many stories of your own life, I feel like in many other people's hands that that would really not come off well right now.
00:47:31:06 - 00:47:55:01
Clark
It's like Cohen, let's talk about you. And then for the next hour and a half, I do nothing but talk about me. And that wouldn't probably come off looking so great. But it does here. I mean, I don't ever get a sense of ego. I don't ever get a sense that that that Herzog is trying to, like, you know, put himself over above Chatwin or have to take up the limelight or anything like that.
00:47:55:01 - 00:48:03:09
Clark
I really do get a genuine sense that that these are things that are just so deeply shared by the two of them.
00:48:03:09 - 00:48:04:15
Cullen
What's funny to.
00:48:04:20 - 00:48:06:02
Clark
Them? It makes sense. Yeah.
00:48:06:02 - 00:48:33:22
Cullen
And we we hadn't neither of us had seen this before, and we chose this essentially on a whim just to say let's do something of his recently. Right. And but what this wound up being was honestly, if anything, the perfect companion piece to his masterclass because this is such a stripped down form of like every single Herzog is like every single little, little, little, you know, he tiny thing that Herzog is known for.
00:48:33:23 - 00:48:36:07
Cullen
Well, yes. And it's very, very interesting.
00:48:36:10 - 00:48:42:04
Clark
He talks about the importance of the real on screen and like the physicality of filmmaking. That's in this documentary.
00:48:42:04 - 00:48:48:11
Cullen
He talks about when he describes it, when he's talking about the guy climbing. And it's like there, you know, that there's no safety net on him. You know, that there's no.
00:48:48:11 - 00:48:51:19
Clark
And it makes such a difference. And it's and it's so true. We talk about how.
00:48:51:19 - 00:48:58:15
Cullen
Bruce even himself said that he he one of his favorite things that Herzog did was pull them out or pull the boat over the mountain in.
00:48:59:04 - 00:49:18:07
Clark
Its grotto. Absolutely. Because it was real. You can trust your eyes. It's a real image, you know, truth versus facts. You know that that just because it's true or sorry, just because it's facts doesn't mean that it's true. We're filmmakers. We're not journalists that's in here. There's a fun story of and this is kind of, I think, a a tiny little example of that.
00:49:19:01 - 00:49:27:07
Clark
And they the outback apparently they're one of the locations where Herzog did some shooting. There is this old Hollywood prop, this huge spaceship.
00:49:27:08 - 00:49:27:21
Cullen
Yeah, Prop.
00:49:27:23 - 00:49:47:11
Clark
Yeah. And Herzog and Herzog and his narration talks about, you know, here lies the remains of a Hollywood intergalactic spacecraft. You should probably do in this with your accent. But he said, but he he talks about how it's from Star Wars. And it's it's not from Star Wars. It's definitely not from Star Wars. Star Wars. It's actually from a film called Pitch Black.
00:49:47:21 - 00:50:11:07
Clark
And but and I don't think that Herzog stupid. I my guess actually is that he knew that it wasn't from Star Wars. But in this case and admittedly this is tiny admittedly tiny, I think it still illustrates the point that so what? Not everybody knows which, but most people probably don't know pitch black. It's nowhere near on the scale of Star Wars, but everybody knows Scarlett Star Wars.
00:50:11:07 - 00:50:13:11
Clark
So the essence of what he's saying.
00:50:13:11 - 00:50:14:12
Cullen
Is to the point is true.
00:50:14:21 - 00:50:51:07
Clark
Completely true. Even if this, you know, insignificant, trivial fact, this accounting fact isn't accurate, who cares? But it's just another example. But absolutely, I and, you know, I think I found the film to be fantastic. I'm trying to think what there's just so many interesting things in this in this film. But I was just really, you know, just and I oh, there was something else, you know, because we talked about Herzog really looking for the strange.
00:50:52:01 - 00:51:14:18
Clark
And it made me think of and he also talks about these, you know, these demented, deranged landscapes. Right. That he uses deranged so often and demented, whether it's, you know, in the film, he's he's got these macro shots of the lizard skin that looks alien and covered in ants. They're covered in ants. And it's surreal and it's odd.
00:51:14:18 - 00:51:36:02
Clark
And, you know, Herzog's talking about his obsession with these creatures. And, you know, he talks about not wanting to shoot a landscape for its beauty, but for its seriousness, its strangeness, its demented nature. And it made me think of and I'll admit there was a degree of separation because I'm just not that literate. But, you know, I was a fan of The Doors when I was a kid, still a fan of The Doors.
00:51:36:02 - 00:52:09:07
Clark
And although there are a lot of issues now, especially in hindsight with Jim Morrison, but, you know, he was somebody's music and lyrics that I listen to a lot when I was a kid. And I think at some point, you know, Jim kind of had this this, you know, this idea that he kind of would talk about with a journalist and whatnot where he believed in a you know, he was basically quoting Arthur Rimbaud and this, you know, that a poet makes himself a visionary through a long, boundless and systemized disorganization or derangement, depending on the translation of all the senses.
00:52:09:17 - 00:52:16:18
Clark
And I remember kind of hearing that, you know, hearing Jim Morrison repeat that quote.
00:52:17:06 - 00:52:17:17
Cullen
And it made.
00:52:17:17 - 00:52:37:08
Clark
And I finally kind of made this connection. I'm like, you know, it's kind of what I feel like Herzog is doing here. It's like we've without drugs. He's doing it through landscapes. He's doing it, you know, through through these these this new imagery, this this strange and surreal imagery. And it made me it just kind of I just had this thought of like I think Herzog's an alien know.
00:52:37:09 - 00:53:03:00
Cullen
It's like he's Yeah, yeah. Well, he describes what's interesting to us. He describes lessons in darkness. He like the point of that movie was, was he said, what if an alien science came down and saw this landscape? And that would be what it was like? And and we've you know, this movie actually ties in with Lessons of Darkness, which actually might make sense because it was so close to the time when Bruce died that he made that.
00:53:03:00 - 00:53:11:02
Cullen
Yeah, but the you know, unless the darkness is a famous shot where it's going forward, forward and then it goes down and then it suddenly everything's upside.
00:53:11:02 - 00:53:12:05
Clark
Down, upside down, and.
00:53:12:05 - 00:53:35:00
Cullen
It's it feels again like this, like this bizarre landscape. And like you mentioned earlier, this this distinction between so many cinematographers and so many directors finding the beauty in landscape and then pointing that out, whereas Herzog seems to always be attracted to and almost thrive off the bizarreness and the demented derangement of of nature and man and the relationship between man of the land.
00:53:35:00 - 00:53:36:05
Clark
And yes.
00:53:36:05 - 00:53:37:14
Cullen
Yeah, this really.
00:53:37:14 - 00:54:09:15
Clark
Reminds me. And there's a and there are definitely allusions to lessons of Darkness. I think there's that that shot at is it is it Coober Pedy this town and the outback where and where there's this image of this landscape where moving through this landscape and there's all these weird mounds and little holwell and little but holes, it just, just the entire landscape as far as you can see is, is peppered with these strange what appears to be like dirt mounds.
00:54:09:15 - 00:54:13:15
Cullen
They look like termite mounds almost. And I think we both thought that this if.
00:54:13:17 - 00:54:34:08
Clark
There's big holes next to them and I'm like, is this is this is this animals, is this insects, is this humans? What is this? And I actually had to go look it up, but it was totally disorienting to me because I had no idea. But they're actually opal mines in outside this town, I guess like a very large percentage of the world's opals comes from this location specifically.
00:54:34:08 - 00:54:51:15
Clark
But I was just but it completely made me think of lessons of darkness. Yeah. And I think it it's like, I don't know why I've never had to stop before, but I almost wonder. It's like I say, Herzog's an alien. But, you know, Cullen, you and I talked about this. You've had these experiences. I think this is like every person alive has had this experience, right?
00:54:51:15 - 00:55:07:16
Clark
It's just a fundamental part of the human condition where you're just like going through life. And normally nine out of ten times, it's like you're just you just accept everything as it is, right? This is my bed, this is my couch, this is my car. These are other people walking down the street. There's the sky above, a above.
00:55:08:03 - 00:55:28:09
Clark
You don't think anything about it. You're in your own head. You're worried about the bills you got to pay or whatever. Deadline's coming up. But once in a while, you kind of. You just something hits you like a mack truck and everything seems alien. Yeah, everything. It's like you've somehow gone to another place and you're like, What? What are these people talking about?
00:55:28:09 - 00:55:49:05
Clark
What are these people doing? What This face. What is this hill? What is this sky? What is this? You're like, looking at your own hands? Whose are these where you just have these, like, almost like these epiphanies of seriousness. That's right. Where you just where you're seeing everything somehow in some way, whatever has happened in your brain, you're seeing them through like these alien I is.
00:55:49:06 - 00:55:50:23
Cullen
Yeah. Everything seems. Yeah.
00:55:51:00 - 00:56:00:20
Clark
And everything seems demented and seems deranged and seems surreal. And I wonder is like, does Herzog just go through life like that? I think Herzog just goes through life like, no.
00:56:00:20 - 00:56:21:10
Cullen
I mean, I think I think. But it's also there's this there's the whole common phrase of too of like when you get old, you essentially return to your infancy and again, it's it's that very similar thing where it's like it feels infinite, not in a way of like it simple, but it feels like you're seeing these things the first time.
00:56:21:10 - 00:56:34:10
Cullen
And Herzog is so good at making things seem like that, but also that, yeah, like you said, perhaps he feels that way. Perhaps he's able to just see the awe and the complexity in every single thing that he sees.
00:56:34:10 - 00:56:55:18
Clark
Thank you for using that word. Thank you for using that word, because it's like I'd be remiss if I didn't, you know, because I think I've been using strange, demented, deranged and these are words that Herzog uses. But I really do feel like what I experience when I when I see these things through Herzog's eyes in these films is and it's what he's shooting for.
00:56:55:18 - 00:57:22:14
Clark
And I think he achieves it so often. And makes it so different than so many other films. Is a static or a static or a static truth. And it's so important and it's, you know, that's the difference. You know, I equated it to watching this this Belushi biopic. You know, I watched right after this one. And that's absolutely what was completely and totally missing from the the Belushi bio.
00:57:22:22 - 00:57:51:06
Clark
And it's not that his life wasn't without profound esthetic. Of course, there was. Everything has that within it. But this film failed to bring that out. Yeah, this film does not fail to bring that out. And it's really just extraordinary. You know, there are some some landscapes and scenes specifically like the the 10,000 year old cave paintings with the hands and those Yeah, those shots are just like, just really spellbinding.
00:57:51:07 - 00:57:52:01
Cullen
Yeah, it just.
00:57:52:01 - 00:58:02:19
Clark
Looks like this sea of of hands. It's almost like flames made of hands rising into the sky or something. Just really extraordinary. Yeah, totally. I mean.
00:58:02:20 - 00:58:17:21
Cullen
My favorite film was Stripes. Yeah, it reminded me of that. Totally. But also was interesting about it too, is that, you know, just in terms of the art, some of the hands were outlines of hands. Some of the hands were, you know, like painted hands slapped on it.
00:58:17:23 - 00:58:30:08
Clark
It's almost like it's almost like if you put your hand for those who haven't seen it, it's like if you were to put your hand down on a surface and you took a can of spray paint, spray painted your hands and then took it away, it was the negative space. It was hands in negative space primarily. Yeah.
00:58:30:17 - 00:58:53:11
Cullen
It was out of there's just something if again, very Herzog because he's looked things like that before. But but even then you know when we use the word very Herzog will describe it like I am describing his entire just like what's the essence of and I know that he specifically says, like he doesn't go out of his way to search for an esthetic or something, but it very much comes naturally.
00:58:53:11 - 00:58:54:20
Clark
He doesn't go out of his way. Right.
00:58:54:20 - 00:59:03:12
Cullen
And I it's it's just the way that he seems to look at the world. It's the same that's the way that he seems to see, you know, things around him operate and things around him exist.
00:59:03:12 - 00:59:29:02
Clark
So, yeah, when he searches it out and I you know, not to beat a dead horse, but I just think that, you know, in searching out the strange versus the beautiful and that doesn't mean that they aren't they can't be one in the same. It's like the strange things can be beautiful. I mean, I want to I want to, but I guess there's like a there's like a commonplace pedestrian beauty where there's there's a beauty continuity and then there's like a it's something that is truly arresting.
00:59:29:02 - 00:59:57:15
Cullen
It's why I almost use the word raw versus like there's a beauty in landscapes that people create and cinematographers create by shaping it and by only shooting a certain portion of it or shooting at a certain way or whatever. Whereas what Herzog, Herzog kind of strips all of that decadence out of it and tries to remove the idea that it's being photographed or anything like that and just tries to get the most raw, real, you know?
00:59:58:01 - 01:00:02:15
Cullen
Yeah, not necessarily up close in a sense of like being close to it, but up close in a sense of just.
01:00:02:19 - 01:00:03:12
Clark
Emotionally.
01:00:03:12 - 01:00:19:19
Cullen
Just that that landscape. Like he's trying to almost replicate the landscape with the way that he uses the camera and even just the moment when they're in the UK and he's got the drone flying over that mound, the really early human structure, right? And like Neolithic or something and correct.
01:00:19:19 - 01:00:20:05
Clark
Yes.
01:00:20:10 - 01:00:45:10
Cullen
And he's going through this structure, but it's like the drone is just like surrounding it and then it pans up to the rest of the the landscape and then it goes back to this structure. And it's this really bizarre shot that really is just, you know, over some narration about the area. Right. But again, even just in the way that he decides to shoot and present these different elements of all over the world, is is very unique.
01:00:45:10 - 01:00:54:03
Cullen
But also to me brings me closer makes me feel what that the the order of being in that places presence would be.
01:00:54:23 - 01:01:20:14
Clark
Yeah. Because you and I, you and I had both talked about you know, we've both been at sites like that, you know, I've been, I've been to Newgrange in Ireland, which is one of if not, I mean, it's older than the pyramids. It is early, early, early human I guess structure you would call it. And this like just sense of profound connection in to to ancestor through time.
01:01:20:15 - 01:01:50:13
Clark
This to know that you are in a place where I mean just just imagine the stories just the magnitude of story that exist emanating from this location. And that's what I feel through, you know, when Herzog is really firing on all cylinders. And he does that a lot in this film. That's the that's the sense that I get that sense of awe and gravity and magnitude of of of feeling the imminence of of story through this.
01:01:50:13 - 01:02:14:00
Clark
Just this that ancestral connection to that place is so strong and it's just so different. It's just so different than, you know, just a pretty shot of a landscape, you know, And it's almost white and it's you know, it's really I almost said this, you know, after every lesson that we went over in our past episodes, I would be like, gosh, you know, I was really you know, I learned this or I was inspired by that.
01:02:14:07 - 01:02:40:23
Clark
And I really have to say, you know, I think you and I have talked about it before, not on the but outside of that, that, you know, traditionally in the past, I've not been a big landscape guy. I've always been much more intrigued by the human face, like both in my still photography and in moving pictures. And I really, I feel like have neglected the power and impact that landscape can have.
01:02:40:23 - 01:03:02:00
Clark
And I'm really going to go revisit that and really take a look at how I can more utilize some of these. These I don't want to there's not techniques but utilize some of this power, I guess, if you like, you know, in my work moving forward base really inspired by that. I had never really thought of landscapes in this way before.
01:03:02:07 - 01:03:07:04
Cullen
Yeah, no, it's incredible. I mean, it's yeah, I would recommend this movie to anybody.
01:03:07:04 - 01:03:26:22
Clark
Yeah, I absolutely would. Yeah. Well, I mean, on that note, I think we're right about time. I think we've covered. I mean, look, we could probably go on for another hour, but I think we've hit on most of the topics, The ideas that that popped out to us in this film certainly doesn't mean that there aren't other ideas there certainly are.
01:03:27:08 - 01:03:30:06
Clark
But but I think we've just about done it, man.
01:03:30:14 - 01:03:31:13
Cullen
Yeah, totally.
01:03:31:18 - 01:03:52:14
Clark
All right. All right. Excellent. Yeah. All right, well, color is always, man. I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. It was fantastic. I'm really excited about this. Being able to move past the masterclass lessons. Not that I didn't love that, but it's fun to on to some new things. And just to kind of reiterate, we've got interviews that we're lining up down the road.
01:03:52:19 - 01:04:06:02
Clark
We'll continue to to about discuss more of Herzog's films kind of use that as a jumping off point to discuss different filmmaking topics. So thanks for hanging out with us and we will we will catch you next episode.
01:04:06:03 - 01:04:33:10
Cullen
Yeah. See you guys. Next episode.