Cullen
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I am Cullen Mcfater, one half of your hosting team, as always, joined by Clark Coffey down in Wait.
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Clark
Wait, wait, What was my name?
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Cullen
Oh, I said.
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Clark
La la la. It's been I see.
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Cullen
You know it was, it was going into the the old forties radio show that I'm doing by Clark Garvey down and.
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Clark
I think that's pretty cool. I do like that voice, man. I do like that voice. Well, you know, it's to be fair, we can, like, pull the curtain back a little bit and expose the behind the scenes. It has been a month since you and I have recorded an episode and yeah, yeah, we actually that's been primarily because you've been shooting and you had a wonderful vacation.
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Clark
I think what you were in, you were in Italy.
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Cullen
I was in Sicily, Austria and.
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Clark
Switzerland. There you go. So I had a very similar trip myself, a couple of years ago. That was it was a really wonderful places. But anyway, so yeah, it's been a month. So you've just forgotten who I am. I guess the lack.
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Cullen
Of those from what year it is.
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Clark
You forget what year it is and everything.
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Cullen
Like what's the news on the horn anyway?
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Clark
Yeah, well, I am happy to be back with you, Cullen. Like I said, it has been a month, so I'm really excited to dive in. What are we going to cover this episode?
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Cullen
This episode, long overdue, is my own Private Idaho, the Gus Van Sant 1991 flick. One of your favorites, if I'm not mistaken.
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Clark
It is one of my.
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Cullen
Fav high up there.
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Clark
Yeah, yeah. It had. I mean, you know, look favorites is always a weird term, but it's it's a film that had a big impact on me. It was a film that I saw when it was released when I was 15. And the reason that I saw it, I mean, I didn't know, you know, it's funny, I probably I probably had seen Drugstore Cowboy, which is another one of my favorite kind of pivotal films from my youth.
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Clark
And that, of course, was was the second film directed by Gus Van Sant. He directed that right before he did this film. This is his third on, but I don't even know if I knew that. I can't remember. I don't even know if you know it at 13, 14, 15, if I don't know if I was keeping track of who directed what yet.
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Clark
But it was River Phenix, that's who. I think his involvement in this film definitely grabbed my attention as a kid, somebody who was kind of starting to develop this idea that I wanted to grow up to maybe be an actor. River Phenix had a really, really, really big impact on me, and I think, you know, just about anybody of my generation, you know, if you watched films, if you cared about the art of acting, River, Phenix was somebody who probably had an impact on you because he was of his generation at that age, arguably the best.
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Cullen
He was like the Mozart of that stage of action. And I mean, I don't ironically, that it was like the you know, he was kind of this this protege that was that was like a really brilliant actor. And I'd say.
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Clark
Yeah, I think.
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Cullen
That said so many times that it was a shame that that he he died so young and so interesting to see. No question his career turned into a major. Really See that here?
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
Like I think that I think that you and I both agree that this film for him is a really great showcase of like where his talents could have led. Yeah. And, and but no, he's, he's great in it.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
So that's Reeves as well. Yeah.
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Clark
Yeah. And I think it's a strong performance by Keanu and there's a handful of strong performances. There's some kids in here who are actual real street kids, and I think their authenticity shines through and I think they're great. And but yeah, it's so I saw the film. You know what kind of start I always like to start with.
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Clark
We can kind of share our personal experiences with the film because I think frankly, that's that's what matters most at the end of the day, you know? But yeah, for me, I saw it. I was probably about 15, 16 when I saw the film. And like I said, I saw it because probably River Phenix, his his involvement drew me to it, but it had a big impact on me.
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Clark
I think it was it was one of the it was a film, an early example of a film, a couple of different things. One, you know, this film is really kind of like a tone poem. You know, it's this film is not about plot. It's not about what happens next. It's quite stylized, both, and it's kind of, you know, stealing some Shakespearean esque dialog.
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Clark
And it's a combination of, I think, three different scripts from Gus Van Sant or three different stories kind of smashed together.
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Cullen
So we started writing it in the seventies.
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Clark
So yeah, so it's so it's kind of it's very it's got a lot of surreal elements to it, I think. And, you know, for a 15 year old kid who's grown up in Missouri and had a pretty you know, my exposure to the world was pretty small at that point in time. This kind of showed me a couple of things, like one, like, well, film doesn't have to just be about plot, how it can be like this kind of tone poem and it can be about, you know, a feeling, right?
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Clark
That was a huge kind of revelation to me as a kid. And it also it and this I think this film is a good example. It's one of many films that I saw as a kid and books that I read that really helped expand my horizons of empathy. And, you know, and I guess maybe this is why I'm drawn to acting and to filmmaking and storytelling.
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Clark
But I just have an insatiable desire for the, you know, the human experience. And that is such a broad and deep thing. And I'm always wanting to learn more about people with different lives and people with different backgrounds. And, you know, this was just a really interesting story of kids who were not too much older than me, these characters, but they had such radically different lives.
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Cullen
Yeah, I think they're like just turning 21 in the movie. Yeah. Yeah.
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Clark
I just really it was just so I don't know, you know, it was just it just really stood out to me. Yeah. So, so yeah. And then, and then it's interesting because watching it now for this podcast here, I don't think I've seen it in maybe 20 years. So really interesting for me to see it now and kind of I have this memory of it having seen it so long ago.
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Clark
So we can kind of as we go through this, I'll kind of talk a little bit about how watching it now as a 45 year old was different than watching it as a 15 year old. But but, yeah, what about you? What were your experiences with the film?
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Cullen
Yeah, I mean, the first time I watched this was, um, a few years ago, 2019.
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Clark
At my.
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Cullen
Suggestion. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I was supposed to. I was heading down to California to do a film with you and meet up with our soldiers crew, and we were kind of sharing films back and forth with each other as to like what potential inspirations or points of, like interest might be for, you know, what we were going to do.
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Cullen
And one of the ones that you suggested for me was this I think it was this in Drugstore Cowboy, where the two that you kind of sent up. Yeah. And yeah, I'm seeing it at the time. And again, I was immediately fascinated by the Shakespearean elements, you know, like kind of the he said that it's kind of like a amalgam of like Henry the fourth part.
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Clark
Yeah. There's just kind of loosely based on. Yeah. Kind of pieces and snippets of Henry the fourth part one and two and I think even a little Henry the fifth. Yeah.
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Cullen
Yes. Yeah. And I think that to me what you know again, I'd done a lot of Shakespeare in the theater program. I was in high school and kind of had a really great fascination for it. And always, you know, I've always been a fan of Shakespeare and yeah, you know, especially delivering Shakespeare and actually, you know, acting in Shakespearean works, I think is always, you know, kind of an unforgiving, forgettable experience for a lot of actors.
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Clark
It's certainly a challenge and yeah.
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Cullen
Oh, definitely. Yeah. To get the, the own judgment down and Yeah.
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Clark
But just to understand it for you know.
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Cullen
Oh yeah. Yeah. To, to get the, the.
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Clark
The to actually understand so much the.
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Cullen
Text down. But it was to me like it's one of those things where I, you know, I'm kind of hit or miss with a lot of like Shakespearean modern adaptations in the way that you know the Baz Luhrmann Romeo plus Juliet which you.
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Clark
Didn't necessarily.
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Cullen
Yeah I'm not I'm not big on that one It's very on the nose it's very much playing up this.
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Clark
I did think it was kind.
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Cullen
Of like this It's yeah, it's fun, but it really it really plays up this the element to the degree that kind of teeters at it. Ridiculous. Very theatrical.
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Clark
And that's there's a.
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Cullen
Lot of ridiculousness in this. A lot of there's a lot of theatrical elements of this movie. But I think to me, the way that it is infused within the story and the context and the like, the themes of the movie, they feel much more appropriate for that kind of thing, even though, of course, that is really just literally a Shakespearean story.
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Cullen
This one, I think the direction is just a lot more centered on where it wants to be and where it wants to blend in those modern tones, the modern themes and modern elements of storytelling and filmmaking, and even just cultural context. With this kind of classical style of like, you know, timeless storytelling that is this, you know, very Shakespearean.
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Cullen
The moment when they have that big, like, strange sword fight in the park, when they're all like the little pink onesies and stuff. Oh, yeah, yeah. Feels kind of like straight out of, like, you know, a number of Shakespeare plays.
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Clark
Oh, doesn't it? Yes.
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Cullen
Like The Taming of the Shrew, even. Yeah. And, um, but it really feels right for the movie simply because the fact that we've been enveloped in this story of just this kind of, like, these really weird characters and every character is this kind of odd study in like, a different type of person in sexuality and, you know, this, this dreamlike nature of the whole movie where because we, of course, have a character dealing with narcolepsy, that it's like there's this really interesting dynamic in the movie of like, what is real and what's like hallucinating or what's dreamt.
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Cullen
And you know, that he doesn't give answers in terms of like editing. You'll have just moments where suddenly you're cut to this surreal image of like a house falling on a highway in the desert.
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Clark
Right. But what a beautiful symbology of of a climate. Yes. I mean, I thought, yeah, it was I don't and I you know, I meant to look it up and I haven't. But that's clearly of course, that's not CGI in 1991. I, I, I'm curious to know exactly how they did that shot. Did they.
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Cullen
Yeah. Yeah.
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Clark
Maybe. But it's a.
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Cullen
Giant crane, you know. And so then that that was kind of like the first time that I saw it. Really? Yeah, Kind of swept me up in that. And then I watched it twice for this episode. Oh, okay. And I think, again, revisiting it, I had forgotten a lot of the more stylistic parts of it that I really liked.
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Cullen
Yeah. Even, you know, things that we'll get into later. But like the use of Tableau.
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Clark
Yeah. Which I think is so interesting here. Yes, yes. The use.
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Cullen
Of color. Even like it's not, it's not I would say the cinematography is by no means surreal or super stylized. It's heightened or stylized, but there's moments where they use like elements of, you know, where Keanu's face is half red.
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Clark
And it's there's a lot of red. There's a lot of yellows.
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Cullen
Yeah. This really deep, rich color that comes out of the film stock. And I think that it's again, it's kind of this thing where where I think the reason that I appreciate it so much and I appreciate the avant garde ness of the movie is because it feels really, really built into the actual structure of the movie. And it feels like it's it's like a part of it that that it came out of everything that was like it was an ad.
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Clark
It's authentic. It's often. It's authentic.
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Cullen
Exactly.
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Clark
Yes. It's it's.
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Cullen
Like this.
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Clark
This was you know, this is a director working authentically and frankly, a cast and a crew. I mean, this is firing on all cylinders, right, where this isn't a calculated approach or some gimmick or some, you know, which a lot of times, I think extreme style or kind of, you know, when people attempt to kind of go in a surrealistic direction, a lot of times it feels very gimmicky.
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Clark
It can. Yes. You know, and I don't think it does at all here. I think everything feels extremely authentic here. And and I think that really, you know, that that touches you. I think on a deep level, it goes back to why I was so moved by the film as a kid, because even as a kid, I don't know anything about film technique.
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Clark
I mean, I you know, this is well before I ever studied film to any extent whatsoever. I've just kind of, you know, But everything worked on me, you know what I mean? I didn't it was I wasn't analytical. I wasn't in my head. It bypassed all those things. And it really worked on an emotional level for me. And that's that's the key, you know?
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Clark
Yeah. Do the stylistic choices work emotionally? Yeah. So exactly. I mean, I think they really do here. Well, for I mean, hey, look, first of all, it's, it's I'm glad that you like the film. It's always nice when somebody you know, when I suggest a film to somebody, especially one that you know, is a little bit, you know, no different than mainstream.
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Clark
I'm always curious to see. Well, they you know, there's a good chance that person might not like it, but it sounds like you did enjoy this film. So.
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Cullen
Yeah, no. Yeah, I'm definitely an enjoyable rewatch. The special. Yeah.
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Clark
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, you know, this film came out in 91 and I kind of, you know, it's trying to like, think back like put the film in some context. I think, you know, right off the bat we've got to think about the kind of the landscape of, you know, the representation of gay characters in films in 91.
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Clark
And I think this clearly is a film that I think is considered a landmark film or really important film for gay or queer cinema. And and I think it you know, that was one of the things that stood out to me as a kid was that the film really treats these characters as just like they don't they don't martyr them, They aren't idealized.
00:14:09:18 - 00:14:21:04
Clark
They but they and they aren't stereotyped. It's like very matter of fact. And I think that's significant. But I think at the time when this film was released, there wasn't a lot of that going on.
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Cullen
It's not it's not patronizing in the slightest. It's very and.
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Clark
It's not reductionist. Yeah, it's, you know, it's and so, you know, even I didn't have I couldn't have articulated that, of course, when I watched the film. But I guess that's what I try to what I'm trying to say. When I said that this film was like a empathetically broadening film for me, you know, not being gay myself and growing up in Missouri and in the time in which I grew up, I did grow up around a lot of casual homophobia.
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Clark
I mean, that's just a fact. It was and I say casual, not that it was I mean, that it was everywhere prevalent. You know, that as a straight person, that's how kids would talk. And, I mean, you know, and so it had a big impact on me in that way of opening my kind of like exercising my empathetic muscles and like, whoa, you know, there's there's like lots of different people out there.
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Cullen
And it's not just the stereotype. Yeah.
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Clark
And I can and I can, like, see myself here. It's like we all experience longing for love and longing for home. And I know, you know, it seems maybe ridiculous as adults, we've had it. We've got a lot more life under our belt. But, you know, a little 15 year old kid growing up in Missouri, sometimes these days can be really eye opening for you.
00:15:37:12 - 00:15:54:11
Clark
Yeah, it is. I think that's why that's one of the reasons this film is so important to me, is that it kind of helped show me and, you know, along with many other works of literature and film, how powerful art can be. So yeah, but I think it's important context. You know, I think this was a big that.
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Clark
I think that we could definitely say that it was a landmark film in that way. Yeah.
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Cullen
Definitely. I mean, if you look at the prior depictions of like homosexuality or even just any gender or sexuality kind of variances in film.
00:16:09:07 - 00:16:09:17
Clark
Yeah.
00:16:09:17 - 00:16:17:16
Cullen
And either you have something where it's it's used as an element of like a horror film or it's a gag.
00:16:18:07 - 00:16:18:16
Clark
Or.
00:16:18:16 - 00:16:19:04
Cullen
On the kind of.
00:16:19:11 - 00:16:20:09
Clark
The button spectrum.
00:16:20:13 - 00:16:47:18
Cullen
It's the it's this like the entire film centers around this like tragedy about that person's identity. And it's all centered like that person doesn't have an identity. It's just that that their reduced of the one that yeah yeah. And so I think that it's very true that like when you you know this film the fact that they are gay or bi or you know it's never what really specified because Keanu Reeves of course goes with with both.
00:16:47:21 - 00:17:10:09
Cullen
Yeah. Or even some cases it's almost hinted that it's just kind of like an element of like making money and but you never, you know, it's never something that is, that is like, again, patronized or, you know, it's never like centered on in such a degree where it just feels like it's preaching. Yeah. And I think that that really makes it much more authentic.
00:17:10:09 - 00:17:31:10
Cullen
It makes it much real realistic. And yeah, it makes it easier to just I think it relate, you know, to this, this, this really again, you just kind of feel what the characters are feeling, um, in a way that kind of surpasses that, that one sticking point that a lot of other movies would really really.
00:17:31:15 - 00:18:06:06
Clark
We've had and that you and I talked a little bit, you know, before we started recording of some examples of, you know, kind of these Oscar bait films. Oftentimes they're biopics, it seems that, you know, we find a lot of this in the opposite of what we're describing. For my own Private Idaho. We see the opposite of that a lot of times in these biopics where, you know, characters are they're reduced, and the complexity and nuance of their humanity is, you know, is is just taken away and they're turned into martyrs or they're turned in, you know, and it's just it it's it's just unpleasant to see.
00:18:06:06 - 00:18:11:23
Clark
I don't it's not interesting. And I feel like it's insulting to the real human beings. These films are about, you know, these.
00:18:11:23 - 00:18:27:00
Cullen
Well, it's I think it's one of those things, too, for me that that really, you know, a more recent example of a movie that I think does it really well and is honestly similar ish in subject matter to my own Private Idaho is Moonlight, which I have not seen.
00:18:27:00 - 00:18:27:17
Clark
Unfortunately.
00:18:27:17 - 00:19:01:01
Cullen
I what I liked about that and what I like about this is that it like the characters still, you know they're flawed. They're they're human. They are you know it's a story about somebody. It's not a story about, you know, And I think and I just think I can see to me why this would have been such a breath of fresh air for, you know, the gay community or even just like a gay kid growing up, just just thinking like it's about time that there's something that comes out where it's it's it's a happenstance part of their personality.
00:19:01:01 - 00:19:13:09
Cullen
And it's not just about, you know, X, Y and Z aspects of their. And I think that that's, you know, exactly what you're saying. There's so many biopics that come out that are just about the one element in this person's.
00:19:13:09 - 00:19:15:16
Clark
Mind element like handicap or their sex.
00:19:15:16 - 00:19:16:02
Cullen
And it just.
00:19:16:02 - 00:19:16:12
Clark
Becomes.
00:19:17:02 - 00:19:18:13
Cullen
Yeah. And it just becomes.
00:19:18:19 - 00:19:20:06
Clark
Those things are all important like.
00:19:20:06 - 00:19:47:18
Cullen
Don't vary but also very often done by people who either aren't gay or aren't trans or aren't, you know, that it's like this this like Pat on the back. Right. Was of course because this is a gay man and so. Right. Really I think that's I mean undoubtedly that's where a lot of the authenticity comes from, where he doesn't feel the need to pander, He doesn't feel the need to give this like heartfelt, you know, martyrdom to these characters.
00:19:47:18 - 00:20:01:21
Cullen
He can just make these characters be real, what he experience all around. And I think you feel that exuded throughout the whole movie, even if Gus Van Sant wasn't actually, you know, a you know, a male prostitute or whatever.
00:20:01:21 - 00:20:10:15
Clark
Sure. No, I think I think I think I pretty sure that he did not have that experience. And yeah, I think he actually grew up with quite a bit of money. I think his family.
00:20:10:22 - 00:20:34:16
Cullen
Was the other wealthy, well-to-do and and so you still get this idea of where like how deep identity can go for somebody and how if you actually play that authentically and you just put that into the movie as as what it would be and what it feels like to be that character and that these characters aren't stereotypes. They're not you know, they're not caricatures of, of what paradigm, especially when imagine a gay person was.
00:20:35:06 - 00:20:50:06
Cullen
It goes a long way. And I think that you if anything, you're a testament to that being 15 and I mean because even when I was 15 or maybe a little bit younger, but when I was like in middle school, there was still at that point, still a lot of casual homophobia and in like just culture at that time.
00:20:50:06 - 00:21:04:04
Cullen
And, you know, that's like the mid to late 2000s. And there was still, you know, you could go to a movie and there would still be plenty of jokes at that any marginalized groups expanse and yes so I think the fact that this movie without.
00:21:04:04 - 00:21:04:12
Clark
Thought.
00:21:04:12 - 00:21:19:22
Cullen
Convincing a 15 year old kid in rural Missouri to have empathy for, you know, towards people that I'm sure that you had probably I'm sure that in passing you'd probably run into gay people, but that weren't out right. That was very much it.
00:21:19:22 - 00:21:22:20
Clark
Was not with the movie because at that point in my life, Right.
00:21:22:20 - 00:21:40:22
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's a testament to this movie's authenticity and the far reach of just being taken out of authenticity to a point where it's it's, it's just it exudes itself in the film itself. And that story and the characters rather than again, being preachy. Yeah, I think the wonderful kind of house, you know, it's.
00:21:40:22 - 00:22:01:19
Clark
A wonderful power that art can have. Yeah. So yeah, well, I, you know, and there's other like, and I think that's probably one of the most significant kind of contextual, you know, pieces about the film. But there's like in a totally different way, kind of a fun kind of context for me. I just like kind of personally totally different direction than that.
00:22:01:19 - 00:22:10:09
Clark
But, you know, like I said, I was a big fan of River Phoenix's and we're kind of talk a little bit more about performances and the people in the film. But Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Yes.
00:22:11:03 - 00:22:11:09
Cullen
Yeah.
00:22:11:10 - 00:22:23:23
Clark
He's actually in this film And McFly Yeah, he was in a handful of films. Exactly right. Back to the Future. But he was in a handful of films. I mean, I think over his whole career he's been in a he's still in it.
00:22:23:23 - 00:22:26:11
Cullen
He was in the Edgar Wright movie a few years. Yeah.
00:22:26:11 - 00:22:38:22
Clark
Yeah. But, you know, but it's like, but Flea's in it. And of course, Flea was in the Red Hot Chili Peppers and of course their guitarist and I probably mispronounce this. I think it's Frusciante. Is it Frusciante or Frusciante?
00:22:39:18 - 00:22:40:19
Cullen
Yeah. Something. Yeah.
00:22:41:04 - 00:23:03:00
Clark
But John is the guitarist in that band, and I happened to be actually, I'm not a super huge Red Hot Chili Peppers fan, but I am a very, very, very big fan of John's. And I think that he's really an extraordinarily gifted musician and guitarist and just that small plaque. If people out there, if you've not listened to any of his solo work, I recommend you check it out.
00:23:03:13 - 00:23:33:09
Clark
Really, it's quite significantly different than the Red Hot Chili Peppers anyway. But River, Phenix and Flea were friends, and so I guess River ended up getting to know John and River was even on John's. His first solo album, the Andrea la Das, and usually just a T-shirt and things actually to like EP's put together. But that's John's debut solo album and rivers on that and I think he's even in a few more pieces.
00:23:33:09 - 00:23:36:12
Cullen
Of he's in Red Hot Chili Peppers music video, too.
00:23:36:23 - 00:23:48:21
Clark
Yeah. So there's so I guess what I'm trying to say is there was like this fun little group of like clearly these are friends. They're like sharing in each other's projects. And I always thought that was kind of fun. I don't know if you find that kind of, but you know, you're kind.
00:23:48:21 - 00:23:52:09
Cullen
Of Oh, yeah, it's, it's I oh, I love I love those little kind of like collectives.
00:23:52:09 - 00:24:03:13
Clark
Yeah. Where it's almost like this little universe, you know, that's you're like and especially this is like pre-internet. And I'm like, it would be fun to kind of pick up these little pieces like, Oh, that's River Phenix on that song.
00:24:03:15 - 00:24:14:18
Cullen
It's kind of like the Mel Brooks, Richard Pryor, you know, like those like group of them, that Gene Hackman, Gene Wilder, that that all kind of they would just appear in each other's works because it's fun.
00:24:14:21 - 00:24:35:17
Clark
And it was fun to pick it out. You'd be like, Oh, there they are, you know? Yeah, yeah. So, so I thought that that was kind of fun. That was like a fun little piece for me. Just as contextually for this film. And, and of course, I had told you that I'm a big fan of Drugstore Cowboy, but let's let's go in then to, to Gus's direction and talk a little bit about that.
00:24:36:17 - 00:25:06:04
Clark
You know, I think one of the things that stands out to me pretty significantly about Gus Van Sant's direction is the Improvization. Yes. Looseness. And not just it's he definitely gave his actors a lot of room to improvise. Matter of fact, River Phenix actually completely rewrote the pivotal, important campfire scene where he expresses his actual true love and longing to be close to Keanu Reeves character.
00:25:06:10 - 00:25:28:05
Clark
But. But he actually, Gus Van Sant let River Phenix rewrite that entire scene, which I think is pretty amazing. But he also I mean, I have heard him talk about it, and you can see it in the work very loose with his with his blocking state. You know, he he would storyboard anything, kind of going back a little bit to Werner Herzog and not ever wanting to storyboard anything.
00:25:28:05 - 00:25:40:04
Clark
But you can feel that. I think not that it's not that it doesn't feel thought out, refine feels brought out and refine it. But but you do get a sense of spontaneity. You get a sense of looseness.
00:25:40:15 - 00:26:03:19
Cullen
Well, I also wanted to say on that point, too, that it's like a very rare talent to have somebody who has this improvization in their movie. So, you know, so throughout, but also at the same time that the camerawork feels collected and it feels intentional and it feels absolutely, you know, pointed like there's there's not a ton of just like hand-held going through conversation scenarios.
00:26:03:20 - 00:26:04:15
Clark
Well, there's not a lot of.
00:26:04:17 - 00:26:17:01
Cullen
Like someone's following and just like trying to keep up with the actors, It's this really neat kind of dance with the actors who are clearly improvising, but also that the camera is able to like it's you've got such skilled technicians and direction that, you.
00:26:17:01 - 00:26:17:06
Clark
Know.
00:26:17:14 - 00:26:31:18
Cullen
You can still make it seem like there's an articulated camera movement that was thought out prior while these these actors are improvising, which I think is really, really rare. And again, a really good testament to to his, you know, directional talent.
00:26:32:04 - 00:26:58:01
Clark
Well, and we actually have two people who are credited as cinematographers. We've got John Jay Campbell and Eric Allen Edwards. And I think Edwards did most of the lighting in. Campbell operated camera, I think. But but we do have two people listed. I think, you know, you're right. What I see in the work is a lack of generic camera.
00:26:58:08 - 00:27:07:01
Clark
And what I mean, generic camera. Do you see this a lot? I think in television, right, where you see just a lot of really generic over the shoulder, over the shoulder to shot.
00:27:07:06 - 00:27:09:08
Cullen
We need to capture the scene coverage.
00:27:09:08 - 00:27:29:03
Clark
Yeah, right. We're we're just a utility, I guess I kind of call it like utility shooting where it's just you got to get it done. We got to get it done. Let's get our coverage and move on. Well, you definitely don't see that in this film. I think there are sprinkled throughout the film a handful of actually quite technical camera moves or camera work.
00:27:29:03 - 00:27:57:05
Clark
And I think that, you know, putting those quite technical pieces in there, I think really helps contribute to that overall feeling that it's that it really spent some serious time in consideration. I mean, just things that kind of just come at me right now. There's a really beautiful grain shot where we come down off the roof of a building and we go through a handful of hustlers that are on the street corner into the adult bookstore.
00:27:57:12 - 00:27:58:19
Clark
Mm hmm. I think.
00:27:59:03 - 00:28:00:18
Cullen
And then Fiona was on the front cover. Yeah.
00:28:00:21 - 00:28:19:20
Clark
And. Right. And then. Well, that's another shot that we'll get to in a second because. Yeah, really cool. Yeah, but that's like a really technical, I think, you know, very choreographed, very poetic shot. You've got some interesting I mean, you've got a camera on a you know, on a motorcycle pointed up at the handlebar. It's really interesting, unique angle.
00:28:20:11 - 00:28:31:22
Clark
There's a lot of I think really, you know, clearly like very specifically choreographed shots. But then you've also got some handheld mixed in. You've got yeah, the opening shot is handheld. It's actually but.
00:28:31:22 - 00:28:54:09
Cullen
Again, it's one of those things that I always like divide handheld into two different categories. There's like the there is the the handheld, which is a choice which has a planned. You know, you've got very specific blocks and markers that you've got to hit in that handheld. And then there's the second type of handheld, which I think is, you know, the messy kind of lazy way of doing it, which is just like, yeah, we don't really want to put a camera on the tripod.
00:28:54:09 - 00:28:54:17
Cullen
So it is going.
00:28:54:18 - 00:28:56:08
Clark
Forward to save time. We want to save.
00:28:56:08 - 00:28:59:11
Cullen
Time, but it's very much the first time, like you can very much tell.
00:28:59:17 - 00:29:00:08
Clark
And it's well.
00:29:00:09 - 00:29:19:20
Cullen
Done moments that it's yeah, it's very it's very thought out. It's methodical, It's you know it's it's, it's yeah, it's like one of those things that I always admire Spielberg for being will do that as well where you know there's especially in his later films there's a lot of handheld in Spielberg's films but you can always tell that that wasn't just a choice out of laziness or saving time.
00:29:19:20 - 00:29:37:06
Cullen
It's a choice out of like, this would work here because this is the feeling of the scene. I get that a lot in this, which is that yeah, which is again, kind of my point about the improv, which is why it's so special to me that, that it does still feel so refined and that it's feels very directed in a very good way.
00:29:37:06 - 00:29:41:06
Cullen
Not, you know, not that you're like feeling it, but yeah, exactly, exactly.
00:29:41:06 - 00:30:00:15
Clark
Yeah. And, and it's interesting, you know, and it's like I mentioned the very opening it we kind of have I think this is a good example of that thoughtfulness, especially with the handheld work you've got. The movie opens on a scene with River Phenix character on the road, which is this is I mean, we haven't really talked about that so much, but this is in a way, a road movie.
00:30:00:15 - 00:30:26:08
Clark
This is kind of in the the tradition of the road film and but but he wakes up and this is a handheld shot, but it's one of the better handheld shots I've seen in a long time. And I'm pretty sensitive to handheld camerawork. I am not a fan of Shakey. I'm not a fan of just like, you know, putting movement in a shot because we want to try to give it some kinetic.
00:30:26:10 - 00:30:32:23
Clark
Yeah, you got to make it exciting. Yeah. I think you and I both I like a heavy camera. I like a, you know, a weighty camera.
00:30:33:05 - 00:30:35:08
Cullen
I do feel the intention of, like, a movie.
00:30:35:21 - 00:31:01:10
Clark
Yeah, but it's extremely well done. But. But then we bookend that the film ends with the exact same shot in effect, but this time we're on tracks and it's a double shot. And it there is you can that the contrast that they're making about where the character was when he started and where we are when we end and what we've gone through in the movie is a very conscientious choice to have a different type of shot at the end, the dolly versus the handheld.
00:31:01:10 - 00:31:05:23
Clark
But the film is it's just a small example, but the film is full of these kinds of thoughtfulness.
00:31:05:23 - 00:31:28:17
Cullen
And it's very it's like a grand approach to this, like kind of surreal, dreamlike feel the movie to like that opening shot feels very dreamlike. It feels very and you're intercutting with these like just flashes of imagery of like seemingly unrelated imagery. But you realize throughout the movie why he's thinking about those images, why they're coming up of like houses being destroyed and things like that.
00:31:28:17 - 00:31:29:00
Cullen
Well, we've.
00:31:29:00 - 00:31:30:19
Clark
Got that that time lapse. We could talk the.
00:31:30:23 - 00:31:32:00
Cullen
Time lapse photography.
00:31:32:01 - 00:31:34:09
Clark
We have some really wonderful time lapse photography.
00:31:34:14 - 00:31:34:21
Cullen
Yeah.
00:31:35:09 - 00:31:39:05
Clark
We've got I think there's some eight millimeter footage, if I'm not mistaken.
00:31:39:05 - 00:31:41:06
Cullen
It's either the the old home footage.
00:31:41:19 - 00:32:06:14
Clark
The old, like, simulated right home footage. Yeah. Where we have reverse character, you know, thinking back, trying to pull these memories of his past when he felt like he had a home and he felt safe with his mother. He's always trying to get back to that. I think that was really well done. That's it. This is really there's and there's quite a bit of it, but it's really well done.
00:32:06:20 - 00:32:09:10
Clark
We've got you'd already mentioned the tableau. I want to.
00:32:09:16 - 00:32:14:02
Cullen
Get that really interested. So yeah, there's two I think it's only used two or three times.
00:32:14:02 - 00:32:27:12
Clark
I think there's three times I think yeah we have, there's maybe I'm wrong. We have a Keanu Reeves character with the the woman that he meets in Italy. Yes. In the farmhouse. Yeah. We have the threesome with the.
00:32:27:12 - 00:32:28:08
Cullen
The German guy.
00:32:28:08 - 00:32:32:17
Clark
The German who is like fantastic. Like Karen.
00:32:32:18 - 00:32:33:23
Cullen
Oh her who don't see.
00:32:33:23 - 00:32:41:00
Clark
Her I think is hot. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I felt like there was another. But maybe I am. Maybe I'm making.
00:32:41:00 - 00:32:42:23
Cullen
Out. There might have been. I can't I Those are the two that stuck out.
00:32:42:23 - 00:32:43:19
Clark
Those are the two that stand.
00:32:43:19 - 00:33:01:22
Cullen
But it's this really interesting thing where it's like, it's like you get into this, this like, sex scene and suddenly it's just these flashes of tableaux that aren't stills, they're not freeze frames. They are. You can tell the actors are breathing. Yeah, and moving, but it's like this really interesting. And they're in these incredibly almost Renaissance painting like positions.
00:33:01:22 - 00:33:30:23
Cullen
So it's like the intermingled, beautifully arms and and beautifully lit. And, you know, again it it really exudes that kind of this this 15th century Shakespearean feeling to me of like, oh, this like artfulness. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that's kind of what I got from it is that it felt like those Renaissance paintings of just these like nude bodies that are intertwined, that are together, especially, I think the one that I thought was the most beautiful was Kiana in the the farm girl in the Italian farmhouse, because.
00:33:30:23 - 00:33:31:10
Clark
Carmela.
00:33:31:10 - 00:33:41:03
Cullen
Just had that image of of like the light coming through the window when they're standing on the windowsill. Yeah. It's like kind of embracing each other fully nude. And it's this really, really incredible.
00:33:41:03 - 00:33:41:20
Clark
And I want to say.
00:33:41:20 - 00:33:42:12
Cullen
Way to do.
00:33:42:12 - 00:34:05:11
Clark
Yeah, yeah. I want to say I don't know how you feel. I do take, like, a small digression here, but, you know, I feel 99% of the time that sex scenes in films are almost that like 99% of the time they are the opposite of sexy. They're cheesy. Mm hmm. They. I don't know. Yeah, It's like, it's. It's either they're gratuitous and it's obvious they're gratuitous.
00:34:05:21 - 00:34:08:11
Cullen
Or directors clearly feels kind of uncomfortable about, like.
00:34:08:11 - 00:34:09:12
Clark
Right. And everybody.
00:34:09:12 - 00:34:10:14
Cullen
In a way Yeah.
00:34:10:16 - 00:34:39:23
Clark
But it's so, so it was so interesting to see this extremely unique way of doing this. And in a certain sense, it's like and I think it's for the reason that you just described that it, it, I don't know, it removes us a little bit so we don't feel awkward, right? But we're allowed to kind of look at the beauty of the scene and in a way that's almost more sensual that, you know, Yeah, and I think it was extremely effective and.
00:34:39:23 - 00:34:42:10
Clark
I would consider stealing this technique at some point.
00:34:42:11 - 00:34:50:02
Cullen
So yeah, I think it's a wonderful, wonderful technique that I've literally never seen done again. I've never seen it. I haven't Yeah.
00:34:50:02 - 00:34:50:09
Clark
I mean.
00:34:50:11 - 00:35:14:17
Cullen
I agree with you. I think that like I am also not like I don't think that, you know, there's a lot of people who are like, oh, sex scenes should never be in movies because they're always tertiary. I don't think that I think that there's a lot of like very powerful statements that you can like, just like in this movie that you can make with a like sexual moment or I mean, a kind of the other end of the spectrum from this, you know, a very grounded in real like sexual moments and like Basic Instinct.
00:35:14:17 - 00:35:52:21
Cullen
I think that those sex scenes are like both incredibly like, you know, A-Rod esque, but also at the same time are very well crafted. And so it but it's kind of again, it's like the opposite end of the spectrum of like you're kind of removing all of the art house in that instant, whereas this one really embraces that kind of that very arthouse, avant garde feeling where it's like you're just getting these almost flashes of memories which to me almost feels like really, really psychological in that it's like it's like this kind of like, you know, post sexual feeling of just like these flashes of memories as opposed to, like existing in the scene with
00:35:52:21 - 00:35:54:07
Cullen
those characters as they're doing.
00:35:54:07 - 00:36:02:07
Clark
It feels more yeah, it feels more accurate to memory that that's kind of regardless of whatever the thing is that you're remembering where they're like. Like this.
00:36:02:07 - 00:36:03:03
Cullen
Adrenaline.
00:36:03:04 - 00:36:26:06
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very interesting. I hadn't thought of it in that context either, but yeah, it's, I, and I've not seen this since, and I think it's a very interesting choice to not use actual freeze frame, like you said, but it's actual, you know, we've got running film, it's 24 frames per second, but we have actors posed together and they're doing their best to hold still.
00:36:26:09 - 00:36:28:04
Cullen
And it's only like 2 seconds per shot.
00:36:28:04 - 00:36:50:01
Clark
Yeah, it's maybe 3 seconds, but. But it's enough. You can see the breath, you can see. And because they're kind of contorted and in challenging positions, I would imagine just logistically as an actor, I bet, you know, some of these positions are probably hard to hold. And you can see that they're kind of struggling to do so that there's movement in their bodies, which which frankly, I think adds actually, as opposed to distracts from the technique I found.
00:36:50:01 - 00:36:51:10
Clark
Yeah. Really intriguing.
00:36:51:10 - 00:37:00:23
Cullen
No, yeah, it felt really organic like you were again it to me it felt like these like I think that if you had done freeze frame, it would have taken away that feeling of like this living Renaissance painting.
00:37:00:23 - 00:37:01:11
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:37:01:12 - 00:37:18:17
Cullen
I think the fact that it's live, it feels like you're like seeing something in person that it's like this brilliant. Like a work of art and or even, like, not even necessarily paintings. I mean, I definitely get a lot of paintings from it, but like statues, even like marble statues embraced. Yeah. Yeah. You can be statues have come to life, but ah, well, you know.
00:37:18:17 - 00:37:40:23
Clark
Gus is it was a painter or is a painter, but I think he has a lot of painting experience and, and so it's very possible that that's maybe part of the connection for him with then. Interesting. Well let's like jump a little bit as we cruise through here to performances. We've touched on like some of this for sure, but I kind of wanted to just hit this again.
00:37:40:23 - 00:37:59:00
Clark
I mean, we've already talked about River Phenix. I think, you know, across the board. I think just about everybody agrees that this is one of, if not his best performances. And in a career that was short but quite substantial, I think when he was younger, younger Stand By Me was another one of his.
00:37:59:00 - 00:38:03:13
Cullen
Yeah. Really also had the small part in the third Indiana Jones.
00:38:03:18 - 00:38:07:21
Clark
Oh yeah. Where he played Indy and that was that exposed him to a wider audience.
00:38:07:21 - 00:38:08:15
Cullen
Huge audience.
00:38:08:15 - 00:38:36:04
Clark
Yeah, to a huge audience. But yeah I mean this was, you know, one of his last performances, one of and maybe one of his most significant and like you've already stated, I mean it, it doesn't even hint I mean it, it directly, you see like he is extremely captivating, he feels very authentic and there's just really physicality. I think one of the things that really strikes me about this performance, I'm curious if you notice or what you think was his physicality.
00:38:36:10 - 00:38:51:17
Clark
I mean, this character is narcoleptic. There's something I don't know. It's Ada how to describe it. I mean, it just it seems like so much of his acting is so perfectly conveyed through this character's physicality that he.
00:38:51:23 - 00:38:53:19
Cullen
At the vulnerability really Well, yeah.
00:38:53:19 - 00:39:01:15
Clark
It really strikes me. Yeah. And River always, I think, had had a vulnerability about him that he communicated through his work. Yeah.
00:39:01:22 - 00:39:20:22
Cullen
Yeah. And which is and it's really interesting in contrast to Keanu Reeves character who is like very confident, very you know, he's the one that's making these grand speeches and fooling with Bob Pigeon. Yeah. And like, all these, like, moments where he, you know, then he just is able to, like, go to his father and directly stand up to him and.
00:39:20:22 - 00:39:25:14
Clark
Say, well, the stakes are the stakes are radically different for the Joker. Exactly. I think he does a good job.
00:39:25:14 - 00:39:43:21
Cullen
He has a safety net of like his character. I mean, not Keanu Reeves, but he has the safety net of, you know, explaining why he's not vulnerable, explaining, you know, very much alluding to the fact that he doesn't have that much to lose. And of course, the film ends with him getting that. And it's yeah, breaking off from this lifestyle.
00:39:43:21 - 00:39:57:23
Cullen
But the but yeah, I think that Keanu I mean I mentioned this when we were having our little preliminary chat, but I had just the other night rewatched the Coppola Dracula, Bram Stoker's Dracula, which of course stars Keanu Reeves, and he got a lot of flack for that role.
00:39:57:23 - 00:39:59:01
Clark
Oh, my goodness.
00:39:59:08 - 00:40:19:12
Cullen
Yes, that's British accent. And he's not great at it. But but I actually like, really enjoyed his performance in it that this time I watched it It's like he he plays up that whole movie is so stylized and so like surreal in a way very, very you know, similar to this, like where there's just like very nothing feels real in the film like that.
00:40:19:12 - 00:40:36:19
Cullen
It doesn't bother me. And I found the same with this, where it's like, I think River Phenix is the star in terms of authenticity. But Keanu Reeves to me plays up the Shakespearean elements to like a really lovely degree. Like he's almost delivering these lines, like he's on stage and I love that. And I Oh yeah, sure, that was intentional.
00:40:36:19 - 00:40:59:14
Cullen
Like, I'm sure that Gus Van Sant likely directed him in that way to have this like really confident again, almost like the tilt of the movie where it's like this, like confident monologuing, like dance, like character who, who like, captivates the room when he's in it. And then you've got River Phenix, who's quiet and brooding. And, you know, it's very interesting this, this dynamic between the two leads.
00:41:00:02 - 00:41:06:07
Cullen
It is And it's again it's a shame that they didn't get to do more together because I think that they had a lot of really great chemistry working together as well.
00:41:06:11 - 00:41:22:08
Clark
And they were certainly friends in real life. Yeah. Yeah. You know, a little bit of the story. You know, I think they they kind of formed a pact that they would both do this film or not do this film, but that they would do it together. Yes, I know River and Keanu, they had worked on a film previously together.
00:41:22:08 - 00:41:44:16
Clark
They were friends and they kind of talked to each other into the film. And and so I think you can see that. I think, you know, there's a there is a good chemistry and yeah, you know, Keanu Reeves and I've heard even some criticisms of his performance in this film. And of course, you know, I mean, he's I think he's come around to his career to such a place now that he's fairly beloved.
00:41:44:16 - 00:41:51:09
Clark
You know, I think, you know, he has a reputation for being extraordinarily kind and generous and, real life as a human being.
00:41:51:17 - 00:41:53:16
Cullen
And from Toronto.
00:41:54:01 - 00:42:19:17
Clark
So ubiquitous. I mean, he's everywhere, you know, that that it's I think everybody just kind of loves at this point, you know, regardless of whether you think he's an outstanding actor or not. But I do think it's easy to take them for granted. And I do think that he he is good in this film. I think now another performance that's worth pointing to would be Bob, the character of Bob, played by William.
00:42:20:00 - 00:42:21:10
Cullen
Which is another interesting story.
00:42:21:10 - 00:42:23:00
Clark
Rich Air Yeah. Richard Is it?
00:42:23:06 - 00:42:24:02
Cullen
Richard Yeah, I think it's.
00:42:24:02 - 00:42:51:15
Clark
Richard Yeah, yeah. It's so William is actually a director and he had directed a film that River Phenix had been in. And so the story goes that they had already cast that role with somebody else, but that actor wasn't working. And so when they needed to find a replacement at the last minute, River Phenix had William in mind and talked him into performing this role.
00:42:52:02 - 00:42:57:21
Clark
I don't know that William had had a ton of acting experience before this. I'm not quite certain, but I do.
00:42:57:21 - 00:42:58:19
Cullen
But he's a lot of fun.
00:42:58:22 - 00:43:20:00
Clark
Yeah, Yeah, but he's a lot of fun, I think is he is absolutely great now. He has by far the most Shakespearean kind of twist and dialog of any of the other characters, but his character is absolutely fantastic and I think it's a character that you could easily miss the mark on. And it's because he's over the top, but I think he just nails it.
00:43:20:00 - 00:43:27:14
Clark
I think it's a fantastic performance. And then of course, you've got Flea and Mike. What can you say? You can't say anything bad. Oh man, I like, you know.
00:43:28:02 - 00:43:29:08
Cullen
Yeah. No, he's so much fun.
00:43:29:08 - 00:43:33:15
Clark
You got a lovely I think he always brings so much energy to everything he does.
00:43:33:15 - 00:43:34:12
Cullen
Oh, God. Yeah.
00:43:34:15 - 00:43:43:15
Clark
I mean, whether it's whether it's his music, whether it's his acting. And, you know, I read his recent autobiography and I am just like, How can you not love?
00:43:43:18 - 00:43:45:18
Cullen
I mean, yeah, I don't know anything about his personal life, but.
00:43:45:18 - 00:43:46:18
Clark
He says, I don't either I don't.
00:43:46:18 - 00:43:53:21
Cullen
Know a nice guy or he sounds like he just seems from from what I've seen and what I like look at. He just seems like he'd be like a great.
00:43:54:07 - 00:44:12:12
Clark
Great somebody. Somebody is probably going like, call us out that he's done something horrible is I don't know. But just from his just from his work, which is the only way that I know him, he definitely has a lot of energy and he brings it to this film for sure. Well, I think, you know, what else do we have to discuss?
00:44:13:20 - 00:44:15:17
Clark
Music. We can talk about that a little bit.
00:44:15:17 - 00:44:26:21
Cullen
Yeah, Just I mean, briefly, it's it's there's a really neat soundtrack on the movie. Again, you kind of mentioned that it's very Coen brothers. He almost in that one. There's one song about that, like the cattle rustling or whatever.
00:44:26:21 - 00:44:28:04
Clark
And I mean, that.
00:44:28:04 - 00:44:29:20
Cullen
Was reminded me a lot of.
00:44:30:06 - 00:44:35:20
Clark
It's Eddy Arnold, the cattle call and if I'm not a cattle call, the movie opens with this song and it just.
00:44:35:21 - 00:44:51:18
Cullen
And it comes it comes up, I think at another moment in the movie as well. I think there's one other instance where it's used. Yeah, like very briefly, but it reminded me a lot of the song in Grizzly Man that like coyotes wail right at the end. But, but it also very similar like raising Arizona.
00:44:51:20 - 00:44:56:08
Clark
Yeah it's like that yodeling like country. It's like this old country tune.
00:44:56:16 - 00:44:56:23
Cullen
Mm hmm.
00:44:57:09 - 00:45:25:19
Clark
Yeah, I and but I think, you know, again, it the music overall worked extremely well. You know, there are parts, for instance that that yodeling song that kind of brings us really quickly into this surreal world. But there's also some like there's Madonna, there's Elton John, there's Pogues, there's you know, there's popular music, too, that I think works really well.
00:45:25:19 - 00:45:47:18
Clark
And as a little note, too, just another small piece of trivia. There's actually so River Phenix and his sister Rain had a band, and I think it's a Lacquers attic, if I'm not mistaken. And so they had a little band together, and there's actually a song from them titled Too Many Colors in the film as well as well.
00:45:47:18 - 00:45:49:23
Clark
So River also contributed to the soundtrack.
00:45:50:14 - 00:45:51:07
Cullen
Hmm. Yes.
00:45:51:07 - 00:45:52:22
Clark
Yeah, I bet you didn't know that.
00:45:52:22 - 00:45:54:15
Cullen
So did the the German guy.
00:45:55:00 - 00:45:55:21
Clark
Oh, did he really?
00:45:55:21 - 00:46:00:00
Cullen
Oh, yeah. That song that he's doing in that. Oh, yeah. They recorded that song.
00:46:00:00 - 00:46:07:02
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, fine. So you tied me on that. I thought I could, like, I thought I could pull one over on you, but now you got me.
00:46:07:06 - 00:46:07:21
Cullen
And I got it.
00:46:08:03 - 00:46:27:18
Clark
In back pocket. There you go. Well, I. I really enjoyed the conversation about the film. I'm so glad you enjoyed the film, period, because that's really fun for me to share films with people and for those listening. If you've not seen the film it'd be kind of weird if you were listening to this and you hadn't seen it, but maybe that's what you've done.
00:46:28:16 - 00:46:47:12
Clark
Don't worry. It's not a film that you can spoil because there's not really any plot. Yeah So still, go check out the film, but excellent. Will Cullen, thanks as always, man. I really enjoyed our conversation and thanks to everybody out there for taking a listen. We really appreciate you and we will catch you next time.
00:46:47:13 - 00:46:50:06
Cullen
Yeah. Bye bye.