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Clark
However one. And welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I am one of your two hosts. Colin McFater are joined, as always by Clark Coffey. How are.
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Cullen
You?
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Speaker 3
I am doing fantastic, man. We had thunderstorms here last night.
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Clark
Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a rare thing, which.
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Cullen
Is extremely.
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Speaker 3
Rare. I think this is the first time that it that it rained out here since maybe like January or February of this year. So, you know, like eight months or so. And yeah, so I was out running around in the street up and down the street in the rain last night.
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Clark
Well, it right here, too. Less exciting.
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Cullen
But.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys get rain up there so. But, but yes, it was wonderful to get a little bit of rain and I miss weather having grown up in the Midwest. Of course, you know, I was used to seasons and big thunderstorms and even tornadoes, which were pretty scary. But ever since I've lived out here in Southern California for the past, whatever it's been, 15, 18 years, some odd in there, you know, it's pretty much like 78 and sunny every day.
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Speaker 3
So I, I miss seasons and I miss weather sometimes, so. Yeah.
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Cullen
Well, it's funny.
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Clark
Yeah. It's it's we've had a bunch of tornado warnings this summer for some reason weirdly enough. So.
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Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
But without further ado, not to harp on the weather for too long today, we're doing, uh, the the 1986 classic. You know, I would say it's a classic.
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Cullen
The fly. The Fly Cronenberg. That's right.
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Clark
Which is, you know, I really love this movie and.
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Speaker 3
That's right. It's your pick.
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Clark
I assume you do. You. You own it.
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Cullen
Yep. I like this even to it.
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Speaker 3
Yeah. This was. This was a pivotal film of my childhood. I don't even know. Did you know I got so much into the weather in thunderstorms? I don't know if we even took note that this is episode 45. Not that it probably really matters, but just in case, it was important for you to know. But yeah, we could kind of dive in on that dive in then on our kind of first experiences with the film.
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Speaker 3
But you know, this in this film came out when I was ten and I did not go see it at the theater. But, you know, whatever, it took a year or two years for this thing to come out on cable TV. There's no question. That's where I saw it. I saw it many times the extraordinarily gruesome body horror, the practical effects, the, you know, vomiting on people's hands and legs and dissolving them and all that amazing stuff and teeth falling out and pulling fingernails off.
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Speaker 3
I mean, come on, what, like 11 or 12 year old boys? Not going to love that, you know?
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Cullen
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
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Speaker 3
And, you know, I mean, I love science fiction and horror, and this is basically a combination of those two things. Of course, it's more we'll get into that later. But, you know, when I was 12, I didn't really see a love story or, you know, I, I really wasn't honing in on kind of the beauty and beast, you know, kind of mythic qualities of the film and wasn't really concerned too much about morality and science and, you know, all aging even because at 12 I didn't understand kind of now the things I understand about aging at 45, I didn't know that back then.
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Speaker 3
My body was young and everything was intact. So that was even, you know, that was kind of obscured to me as well. So for me, at 12, it was just like, there's this awesome look how gross this is. So and I loved it.
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Cullen
What about.
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Clark
You know, I think it's great. Oh, it's funny. I saw I saw this for the first time. I was probably about 12. And I saw it at a film summer camp that I went to. We watched it there. And the reason was because we were talking about like Canadian film and stuff like that. Of course. David Cronenberg's from Toronto.
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Clark
Yeah, movie is this movie's not like it's shot in, set in Toronto, but it's not.
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Cullen
Is this the first.
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Speaker 3
Canadian directed film that we've covered in the podcast? I'm just trying to kind of remember.
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Clark
I believe so, yeah. Yeah. Which is funny because we've done a whole bunch of the ones that that kind of have related, both geographically and kind of personally to your childhood. Yeah, my own Private Idaho, which is, you know, Midwest and stuff like that. And you having grown up in in, you know, just outside of St Louis. So it's funny that we haven't, you know, this is kind of, I guess, if anything, my response to that now, now we're doing Toronto cinema.
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Clark
So, um, but yeah, so I saw this then and we were talking about how kind of like, you know, I guess it's one of those things that, that this movie feels very Toronto to me, even though, again, it's like you see the sea and tower a few times in the background and stuff like that and just, you know, sights and stuff that I recognize, of course.
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Clark
Yeah. But also just the feeling of it in a weird way, hard to kind of describe way just feels very Toronto, the city streets in the way that it's, you know, just I guess for lack of a better term the esthetic of it feels very, very eighties Toronto.
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Speaker 3
Oh that's interesting to me because I yeah you know it's not something I mean obviously I didn't grow up in Toronto so you know as a child that would have not of course would have clearly not been something that spoke to me. But it definitely didn't seem like it was any place specific to me, you know, especially with so much of this film being interiors.
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Speaker 3
And yeah, you know, it's it's not a very epic film in the sense that you you've got these big kind of sweeping landscape exterior stuff going on. It's like very kind of intimate and contained and interiors. So that's interesting to me that to you, this like, really speaks Canadian.
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Clark
Mm hmm. Yeah. No, and it's funny because that was kind of the also the initial, um, uh, reason that we looked the film at that film camp, we were looking at kind of the way that like cities can have effects on films and you can kind of tell, I mean, like even though Toronto plays New York and plays so many different places so often because a ton of movies are shot here, um, you know, very rarely is there a movie that's actually set, you know, or like takes place in Toronto.
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Clark
And I think that that's one of the things that you can kind of like when I'm watching this, like it's, it's quite clear to me, at least, again, perhaps it's because I grew up here that like it's not New York, it's not supposed to be anywhere else. It's it's kind of living in this this Toronto down, which I think is kind of neat for, you know, the amount of stuff that's shot in in L.A. or, you know, even, again, the Midwest.
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Clark
We've done a few movies now that have kind of Rumble Fish.
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Cullen
Yep.
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Clark
And and to to kind of see a film and watch something where it's like, not only is it just a sight and, you know, seeing and things and going, I recognize that. But kind of recognizing the, the character of like a city within a movie. And, you know, it's much more clear, I'd say in other Cronenberg movies like Videodrome is like very explicitly set in Toronto and they discuss it and stuff like that.
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Clark
It's a it's in the context of the film, whereas this film is not so specific to Toronto that it's like it couldn't take place elsewhere or something like that. Um, but again, it still kind of is neat to see a city kind of, you know, inflict itself on to a film.
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Speaker 3
Especially when you're a kid and it's like, yeah, you love film, like you loved film as a kid. And to get to see your hometown, a place that you recognize, a place that you know in a film is a really cool thing. I mean, yeah, on the rare occasions that happened to me when I, you know, when I was a kid, like, you know, I think like one of the National Lampoon movies took place briefly in Saint Louis.
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Speaker 3
And you can tell and I think like planes, trains and automobiles, they drive through Saint Louis or something, or they're at Lambert Airport, you know, a little pieces of moments where Saint Louis would show up in a major motion picture. And I'd be like, whoa, you know, or even in Chicago, a place that I spent time in with my parents, we'd drive up there and take weekends and stuff on occasion.
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Speaker 3
And, you know, Ferris Bueller, when it came out, I was like, That's Chicago.
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Cullen
Yeah, Yeah. So it's kind of yeah, As.
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Clark
A kid, it's neat.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, as a kid, it's neat. If you love film and you don't live in L.A., it's it's it's almost kind of makes it feel real to you, you know? At least for me, it would be like, Hey, like, you know, wow. It's that you actually, like, make movies may be all over the place. Maybe I can do this.
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Speaker 3
You know, it kind of made me feel a little more real.
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Clark
Exactly. And that was like a big thing about doing it. The film camp was like, oh, this is you know, this is shot. And of course, Cronenberg's from Toronto, Howard Shore's from Toronto. They went to the same high school, Lorne Michaels, SNL fame also went to the same high school.
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Cullen
But oh, wow.
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Speaker 3
I didn't know.
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Cullen
That.
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Clark
But yeah, so there's of course, Lorne Michaels, completely unrelated to this movie.
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Cullen
But no, but that's kind of I wild thing.
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Speaker 3
That from the same high school I mean that yeah the oh.
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Cullen
Wow.
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Clark
That high school has a Drake. What's the high.
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Cullen
School. Oh my.
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Clark
Gosh. But no and aside from there's.
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Speaker 3
Just one high school.
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Cullen
Geographic location famous pretty much from Yeah, pretty.
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Clark
Much Yeah. But aside from the the actual, you know, the geographic location of the film.
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Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
It's, it I also like I really think that it's, it's like a in a very good way, like a really like gross movie that the effects are incredible and that really impacted me as a kid. Sure. And just the I think the you know, we'll get into this later and we discuss kind of the direction of the cinematography.
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Clark
But but for starters, it is very like it's not a very flashy movie. There's nothing crazy.
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Cullen
With the outside of the effect. Yeah.
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Clark
Yeah. Outside of the effects. Yeah. There's not like the camera's not you know, there's no elaborate oners, there's no there's some cool stuff they did which you brought up because of the beats that you saw with the motion control and stuff like that. But it's a very in terms of direction, it's very I don't want to say standard because that almost sounds like it's a complaint.
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Clark
I think it's actually really, really well directed, but it's not flashy. Like it doesn't feel like Cronenberg is trying to prove anything, which is kind of relaxing sometimes, you know, in a strange way where it's like, you know, you can just watch a film and the director is really putting the, the importance on the the subject matter of the film as opposed to trying to show off with, yeah, you know, crazy camera effects or anything like that.
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Cullen
So I really appreciate that direct.
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Speaker 3
As opposed to kind of, you know, it's not a like a lyrical, meandering direction.
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Cullen
Yes. It's like a very super.
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Clark
Efficient.
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Speaker 3
Super efficient and direct. Yeah. Yeah.
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Clark
And I also, you know, I so I watched this again, rewatched this about a month ago, I'd say, and that was what made you decide that I wanted to do it for the podcast because I rewatched it for the first time in a long time and sort of thought like, you know, this is actually a really neat movie.
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Clark
This is a like it's again, like I just said, it's really efficient. The way that the story is set up in the movie is, is kind of brilliant in my opinion, because of how simple it is. And you know, you just have this situation where it's like one line in the script will describe motivations for characters in a very natural way, which I think is brilliant, and it doesn't waste time with anything, but it also does.
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Speaker 3
Oh my gosh, it does.
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Clark
Pacing is is like really, you know, it's not like it's like boom, boom, boom. You getting whiplash from how quickly the movie's, you know, moving. But it doesn't it doesn't meander. It's I mean.
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Cullen
Almost almost.
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Speaker 3
You know, I missed one thing, though. Can I can I take like a step back and like, yeah, this is just like a funny story. So, like I said, I saw the film when I was probably 11 or 12 years old and I'd seen it who knows how many times because you know how they are on cable TV and stuff.
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Speaker 3
They'll play it over and over and over and over. And I'm sure, you know, back then it was like we had even with cable, you might have like 25 channels or something, you know, and only one movie channel. So I probably saw the film a dozen times, but it stuck with me to the point.
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Cullen
Where.
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Speaker 3
When I met my when I met my wife, we weren't married at the time, but we'd started dating. And I found out that she was scared terribly by horror films. I until she told me in no uncertain terms, I better stop. I used to, like, run around the house and try to use like Jeff Goldblum's fly voice. And I would and I would be like, I'm Brundle Fly.
00:12:01:01 - 00:12:01:18
Cullen
So what you're saying.
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Clark
Is that it's a miracle that you're married.
00:12:03:07 - 00:12:04:17
Cullen
Now? Well, it is definitely.
00:12:04:17 - 00:12:09:13
Speaker 3
A miracle that I'm married and especially married to such an amazing woman. Yes, that is true.
00:12:09:13 - 00:12:15:10
Clark
It's interesting. I would assume that that that she would also possibly like this because of her medical. You know.
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Cullen
I, I.
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Speaker 3
I couldn't get yet. So there's no way that I could get her to see this. She interested pieces of it when she was a kid, before I ever met her. But there's no way like it is way to grow like she is. I mean, this kind of body horror stuff.
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Clark
That's really interesting considering that she's, you know.
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Cullen
I don't. What, she cut surgery. Oh, yeah.
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Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, like, actual, real.
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Cullen
Real gory gore.
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Speaker 3
I guess, if you to call it that. I mean, actual real human anatomy exposed, of course, doesn't faze her at all. She actually finds it to be quite beautiful. I mean, this is what she does. She puts people back together. But this the body horror in this film. No way, dude. Yeah. I don't think.
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Clark
Interests ever get well, you know what I mean? The next time you guys are up here, or if I'm down there again.
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Cullen
Yeah.
00:13:01:06 - 00:13:05:10
Clark
I bet she'll do me a favor and I'll say, I really want to show you a movie from Toronto. You know, I really want.
00:13:05:11 - 00:13:07:23
Cullen
You know, there's so much I mean, so much.
00:13:07:23 - 00:13:09:16
Speaker 3
I want to sleep for a month, man.
00:13:10:21 - 00:13:11:18
Cullen
But anyway, I just.
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Speaker 3
But that just goes to show, like, how much this film stuck. Stuck with me because I probably hadn't seen it since I was 11. So flash forward, you know, 25 years when I first meet her. And that was like one of my first ways to scare her was to be Tony Randall.
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Cullen
Fly Oh.
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Clark
That's really.
00:13:26:08 - 00:13:27:20
Cullen
Funny. So, yeah, so you.
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Speaker 3
Were talking before I before I went down that path about direction. We were talking about how, how simple and kind of direct. I, I mean, I have to even, you know, to speak to that a little bit. Watching it here last night in preparation for this podcast, I was actually almost kind of jarred by how abruptly we pop into the story.
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Speaker 3
I mean, now, like, it's literally we've we're like fade in or anything's fatal and we just like, boom, we, we like jump into the story and it's like we've got Geena Davis and.
00:14:01:19 - 00:14:03:14
Cullen
Jeff Goldblum talking and just just.
00:14:03:23 - 00:14:11:16
Speaker 3
Mid-Conversation or like right there, it's like, there's no establishing shot. We don't have exteriors. It's not like we're setting up who they are.
00:14:11:16 - 00:14:12:12
Clark
Or where they're at or.
00:14:12:12 - 00:14:16:16
Speaker 3
What's going on. It's just like, boom, we're in a conversation. These two people.
00:14:17:02 - 00:14:21:18
Clark
Yeah, we've got the opening credits, which really set the tone musically. Again, Howard Shaw does a really great job with.
00:14:21:18 - 00:14:22:05
Cullen
The very.
00:14:22:05 - 00:14:23:01
Speaker 3
Title sequences.
00:14:23:15 - 00:14:24:15
Clark
The title sequences.
00:14:24:15 - 00:14:25:14
Cullen
Is simple, a lot of.
00:14:25:14 - 00:14:44:08
Clark
Booming music, but it's but that music very rarely booms in the rest of the film, but it really sets the tone for this kind of like, tragic but also curious kind of, you know, if you haven't listened to the score of this movie, I recommend it. It's a really, really fantastic score in terms of evoking the theme and the feeling of the film.
00:14:44:11 - 00:15:02:14
Speaker 3
Yeah, Yeah. This foreboding and I got to say, you know, it's the the kind of, if you want to call it, in effect, because it's barely even that where we we have we actually have it. I mean I don't know exactly what they did. It almost kind of seems like we're looking at like an infrared or like a reverse kind of thing.
00:15:02:16 - 00:15:16:18
Speaker 3
All the people at this convention that we end up you know, starting the film into with Gina Davis and Jeff Goldblum just talking, their characters talking. But it's almost like we kind of see the movement of all of these people as insects. I don't.
00:15:16:18 - 00:15:20:09
Clark
Yeah, it's like almost like and it almost reminds me sort of like a fly vision in a way of just.
00:15:20:09 - 00:15:20:17
Speaker 3
Kind of.
00:15:20:18 - 00:15:22:06
Clark
This simple, but it's.
00:15:22:06 - 00:15:44:12
Speaker 3
Very simply done. It's just kind of like a false color or kind of like it almost like I said, it almost kind of reminded me of like a night vision camera or like an infrared. Yeah, that's not predator. Yeah, not what they did, but it kind of sort of trying to describe it. But yeah, I mean, but like I said, it's, I was almost kind of jarred, you know, because I, you know, in today's day and age, you know, our film grammar has kind of, you know, it's always evolving.
00:15:44:12 - 00:16:01:16
Speaker 3
And, you know, I think if this film were to have been made today and now maybe if Cronenberg made it, he still would make it this way today. But because he's he's pretty much does his own thing. But I imagine if, like many other directors who are working today, if they directed a film like this, I mean, we'd have some you know, we'd have almost like a teaser, right?
00:16:01:16 - 00:16:09:15
Speaker 3
Like a pre credit action scene. We'd have some kind of, you know, we'd have to have this elaborate kind of thing to set up who these characters are.
00:16:09:15 - 00:16:22:20
Clark
It's funny that you mention that because there's so I just actually recently saw in theaters the James Wan horror film, the new one Malignant, which I thought was nuts. It's very dumb, but it's honestly quite fun.
00:16:22:20 - 00:16:24:10
Cullen
It's obviously it's enjoyable.
00:16:24:16 - 00:16:35:03
Clark
But it opens on this pretty much completely unnecessary, like kind of again, like that action scene, almost like that, like that, that there's this like breakout at this lab and.
00:16:35:03 - 00:16:35:16
Cullen
The Yeah, yeah.
00:16:35:16 - 00:16:43:16
Clark
You know, and I feel like if it was done today this movie it would start with it would be like scientists experimenting on something and it would break out and kill one of the scientists and then they'd have to like, well.
00:16:43:21 - 00:16:45:00
Cullen
It probably start with a.
00:16:45:00 - 00:16:46:17
Speaker 3
Baboon. I imagine so, Yeah.
00:16:46:17 - 00:16:47:23
Cullen
Yeah, exactly.
00:16:47:23 - 00:17:11:09
Speaker 3
I call this the James Bond open because these kinds of things have made this right. This is you've got the, the like the teaser action sequence. And I totally imagine what we would have would be this like slow reveal of like the tripod or that that teleports, I mean, and we'd have the baboon in it and we wouldn't quite know what's going on, but we'd see like, Oh, there's this baboon that's going into a pod.
00:17:11:09 - 00:17:27:00
Speaker 3
What's this? And we'd have this kind of set up and it would be like super dramatic and like, you know, all this kind of and then, you know, would kind of be introduced to Goldblum's character, to Brundle. He'd be at his computer and, you know, and like, the big thing would be right, the teaser.
00:17:27:01 - 00:17:31:00
Clark
Would establish that maybe it's like funding is getting like they're like, we're going to cut your funding If you're doing.
00:17:31:14 - 00:17:37:22
Speaker 3
All the stakes and then boom, you know, we have this like big reveal that the baboons in he's teleported inside out and.
00:17:37:22 - 00:17:38:15
Cullen
We'd have, you know.
00:17:39:05 - 00:17:43:00
Speaker 3
And then it would like cut to credits or, you know, or the opening title sequence or something. I mean.
00:17:43:15 - 00:17:44:00
Cullen
Like but it.
00:17:44:00 - 00:17:44:11
Clark
Doesn't do.
00:17:44:11 - 00:17:45:10
Cullen
Any of that. Yeah. No. Which is.
00:17:45:10 - 00:17:56:10
Clark
Also funny because when I was, you know, again, I and I really like that when I was doing daylight again and when I was writing it a few of the earlier drafts, the script also had like this cold open, like this kind of big like.
00:17:56:16 - 00:17:56:22
Cullen
Yeah.
00:17:57:07 - 00:18:15:06
Clark
Scary. Almost like horror sequence at the beginning that was unrelated the rest of the film, but kind of set up like a few of the things. Yeah. And, and I, you know, wound up, wound up cutting it because I realized, okay, it's, it's not necessary. It doesn't really like, it sort of comes back, but it's not necessary. Yeah.
00:18:15:12 - 00:18:36:14
Clark
And B, I almost like starting the film as simply as possible and in almost giving people like, a taste, like, it's almost like you need I heard a really good example of it or a really good description of it, which is that you need a entry point into the fantastical. You need to start in a place where people sitting in a theater or at home are in their world.
00:18:36:14 - 00:19:01:17
Clark
With this movie, which we are at the beginning, we're just with people. Yeah. And then you need to you need to build this thing, which I think is really a good way of like sucking people in and getting people to buy the scientific element of the film. Even confident. Yeah, and but even just the, you know, the way that this movie establishes things like motive and that they're driving, Geena Davis and Jeff Goldblum are driving back to his lab after this party like this, like 5 minutes into the movie.
00:19:02:06 - 00:19:14:16
Clark
And he just has this kind of throwaway line about how, like, he feels sick in the car and that he hates transportation, he hates vehicles and stuff like that. He always gets motion sickness and it's like right there you've just established, okay, that's why he built these the telepaths, because he.
00:19:14:16 - 00:19:16:04
Cullen
That's why we all seem like such an.
00:19:16:04 - 00:19:19:09
Clark
Efficient, efficient way of of, you know, exactly. We all build.
00:19:19:15 - 00:19:23:19
Speaker 3
I mean, you know, it's like, hey, I get motion sickness, I'm going to invent teleportation.
00:19:24:00 - 00:19:24:22
Cullen
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:19:24:23 - 00:19:26:22
Speaker 3
Necessity is the mother of invention, of course.
00:19:26:22 - 00:19:27:10
Cullen
But yeah.
00:19:27:15 - 00:19:29:07
Clark
So I just, I think it's like really, really.
00:19:29:09 - 00:19:29:20
Cullen
A matter of.
00:19:30:02 - 00:19:51:10
Clark
Of, of like and even that, like, you don't necessarily need to have him to have a motivation for building these telepaths, but it adds this level of depth. And I actually really only notice that the second time that I was watching it when I was like, Oh that's actually such a great just line to sneak in there and kind of have like, we've just learned so much about this character instantly that he doesn't like transit.
00:19:51:10 - 00:20:00:20
Clark
So we're just like vehicles, just like moving is like it's motion sick. So that's why he's so this is like a really personal thing for him. And it kind of just adds this layer of depth to this project.
00:20:00:20 - 00:20:03:07
Speaker 3
And Cronenberg lets you make that connection.
00:20:03:13 - 00:20:04:16
Cullen
So yeah, exactly.
00:20:05:00 - 00:20:19:02
Speaker 3
Because, because I think a lot of times the way this would have maybe been handled would have been like this. Like, you know, Geena Davis character would have been like, Oh, so that's why you developed your teleportation device, huh? Like, they're like, they would have like there.
00:20:19:02 - 00:20:20:13
Cullen
Would have been a line afterwards and.
00:20:20:13 - 00:20:34:08
Speaker 3
It would have like, made it just too much on the nose, you know, It just it would have gone like that one last step where it's like, okay, yeah, You know, that often happens, but. But it doesn't happen here. Um.
00:20:34:18 - 00:20:51:05
Clark
No, no, I think it's like, really, it's just to me, that's like, that's, that's for a movie that's sufficient. That's really a great, you know, prime example of how the story is told in this movie where it's like it doesn't beat you over the head with anything. It doesn't beat over the head with themes except for Gore. Anything.
00:20:51:12 - 00:20:52:14
Clark
It but it's.
00:20:52:17 - 00:20:59:01
Cullen
Over the head with. Yeah, yes, yes, definitely. I mean, I know so incredible. GROSS out for.
00:20:59:18 - 00:21:15:01
Speaker 3
One of the things that I was surprised about, you know, obviously when I was 11, 12, when I saw this film, this was not something that that I noticed at all. I mean, obviously, I'm focused on totally different things when I'm that age. But I was surprised at how.
00:21:16:02 - 00:21:17:03
Cullen
I guess small.
00:21:18:05 - 00:21:37:04
Speaker 3
And I don't mean that in any kind of negative way, but how small the story felt, how few characters there are, how few locations there are, how I mean, it it it's you know, I think the budget was about 9 million which which definitely would have been a low budget film even then, especially for a science fiction film with a lot of special effects.
00:21:37:04 - 00:21:39:00
Speaker 3
So, you know, definitely, I'm.
00:21:39:01 - 00:21:41:02
Clark
Sure, good, good looking special and.
00:21:41:03 - 00:21:44:21
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, we're going to get to that. Yeah, trust me. We're going to talk about the special effects.
00:21:44:21 - 00:21:45:23
Clark
Oh, yeah, That's going to be like the.
00:21:45:23 - 00:21:46:15
Cullen
Entire as a.
00:21:47:01 - 00:22:08:08
Speaker 3
Back. Because as a huge fan of practical effects myself, I mean, we are at the zenith of practical makeup effects in this film. I mean, won an Academy Award, I think Cronenberg's only for special Effects. Obviously he's doing the special effects, But I mean, the film won an Academy Award for special effects, but we're going to definitely get to that.
00:22:08:08 - 00:22:24:00
Speaker 3
But I just I was kind of surprised, you know, and it kind of falls in line with like, you know, the direct and kind of straightforward direction. It just feels I mean, almost even claustrophobic. I mean, there's very little exterior. There's very few.
00:22:24:07 - 00:22:26:07
Clark
There's like three major locations.
00:22:26:07 - 00:22:32:08
Speaker 3
We're in and they're small. There's every space is kind of tight and crowded and kind of, you know.
00:22:33:14 - 00:22:37:19
Clark
It's just like, yeah, there's like three major locations and maybe three major players.
00:22:37:19 - 00:22:59:06
Speaker 3
The plot's very simple. It's not like we have some big convoluted plot. We don't have like, like you had just mentioned a minute ago, you know, probably if we if this film were made today, you'd have like, you know, the the whoever is funding this would be part of the picture and there'd be some like outside organization putting pressure on him to get this done, you know, But there's none of that.
00:22:59:06 - 00:23:03:20
Speaker 3
Like, we don't have any there's almost no outside world. There's like.
00:23:03:20 - 00:23:08:09
Clark
Which is, which is also funny because the sequel, The Fly Two, which is directed by the visual effects guy.
00:23:08:09 - 00:23:09:07
Speaker 3
Which I have not seen.
00:23:09:07 - 00:23:22:19
Clark
Lawless. Chris Wallace That one gets into that like it's like the corporation that's funding his science project is like this big bad, you know, like thing. It's like they're like, Oh, we want the genetic. They're kind of they kind of turn into like the Weyland Corp from the Alien.
00:23:22:19 - 00:23:23:17
Speaker 3
Yeah, from Alien.
00:23:23:17 - 00:23:36:15
Clark
And, but, but this one, yeah, there's none of that. You know, the only real mentions of them is that, that they fund him and that they don't like. It's kind of almost funny that it's almost like a subversion in the way that he sort of says, like, yeah, they don't really care because I don't know.
00:23:37:02 - 00:23:53:16
Speaker 3
He just says he's like, I don't I'm not the genius. I just like, I just like, ask somebody to build me like an atom. D Molecular, like whatever, you know, it just makes up stuff. And I just and I just get parts from all these other people who are geniuses and they don't know what I'm doing. And I put it together and I made this, you know, it is it's kind of funny.
00:23:53:16 - 00:23:53:23
Cullen
The only.
00:23:54:04 - 00:24:02:20
Clark
The only other mention of the corporation in the movie is the fact that the party that they meet at right at the beginning is like that, that corporations party like they're having like a.
00:24:03:08 - 00:24:03:22
Cullen
So now they can.
00:24:04:06 - 00:24:04:17
Clark
Exhibit.
00:24:04:17 - 00:24:17:14
Speaker 3
Yeah so now that you said you mentioned the aliens franchise, I just had a thought. Can you imagine for just one moment a crossover film between the Fly and Aliens franchise.
00:24:18:07 - 00:24:20:15
Clark
Where a man or a Cronenberg alien.
00:24:21:13 - 00:24:22:17
Cullen
Or a Cronenberg.
00:24:22:18 - 00:24:31:14
Speaker 3
Alien movie? Exactly. But I was just imagining like, well, what happens if you if you combine a xenomorph and a fly? What if you.
00:24:31:14 - 00:24:34:04
Cullen
Get. Yeah. Or. Well, it's.
00:24:34:04 - 00:24:45:10
Clark
Also you know, what's funny about this movie is that there's like and I'm you know, I'm not as you know and as we've kind of spoken about I'm not a huge like I don't really go in for superhero movies or things like that but.
00:24:45:18 - 00:24:46:22
Cullen
Yeah but I find.
00:24:46:22 - 00:25:03:12
Clark
That like a movie like this, if you were to present, like superhero films in this body horror kind of way, I feel like they'd be so much more interesting, you know, like you could almost have a movie about this guy that, like, wants to turn himself into, like, like I'm the human fly.
00:25:03:12 - 00:25:04:16
Cullen
And it's like, Yeah, yeah.
00:25:05:06 - 00:25:15:23
Clark
And so which is why, you know, I think that that's one of the things where you kind of look at it and you're like, there's so many interesting ways to go with movies. And it's kind of a shame that so many movies these days are just very, very standard.
00:25:15:23 - 00:25:16:11
Cullen
None of those.
00:25:16:11 - 00:25:26:14
Speaker 3
Movies can be R-rated. So that's right off the bat, That's that's the issue there. Disney and Marvel are never going to make an R-rated film because, of course, it limits your audience. That's never, ever going to happen.
00:25:26:14 - 00:25:30:11
Clark
So nobody the exception of like the Deadpool movies, but those are more comedies anyway.
00:25:30:11 - 00:25:30:23
Cullen
So yeah.
00:25:31:05 - 00:25:44:01
Speaker 3
But they're but you're never going to have like actual, like body horror. Yes. Damage drama, like, you know, people don't really get hurt. They don't they kind of just vaporize or disappear. It's like very sanitized. You know, It's actually.
00:25:44:01 - 00:25:56:02
Clark
Kind of interesting, too, that that, you know, and I didn't even make this connection before I made that point, but that I don't know if you remember, I didn't see the movie, but in 2015, I think there was a Fantastic Four movie that came out.
00:25:56:17 - 00:25:57:06
Cullen
I did not.
00:25:57:06 - 00:26:11:05
Clark
And it was directed by Josh Trank, who did chronicle, which was like this this kind of indie sort of found footage movie about these like kids that get superhero powers. Then things go wrong. And it's almost like a metaphor for like school shootings is like the allegory of it.
00:26:11:08 - 00:26:12:00
Speaker 3
Oh, interesting.
00:26:12:13 - 00:26:30:05
Clark
And so then he wound up doing this Fantastic Four movie, and it was it's kind of one of the famous, you know, recent examples of like horrible, horrible studio interference where, like, the studio interference was so bad that the director, Josh Trank, was like showing up drunk on set every day because it was like such a horrible experience for him and stuff like that.
00:26:30:05 - 00:26:47:03
Clark
So but the reason that the studio interference was so bad was actually because his initial pitch to do the movie was to make the fantastic Four in a fly like way. Like you actually cited the fly. And I did. I just remember that as we, you know, in the last 2 seconds when we were talking about this.
00:26:47:05 - 00:26:47:10
Cullen
Yeah.
00:26:47:12 - 00:26:58:19
Clark
But he and so which is interesting and he was like, I really want to focus on like the body horror elements is of course, the Fantastic Four. You don't know their whole thing was that like they get like radiation That's, I think most superheroes.
00:26:58:21 - 00:27:00:09
Speaker 3
All of us right? You get bit by us.
00:27:00:09 - 00:27:14:11
Clark
But like it's like they get like radiation from the sun and then suddenly they start, you know, the one guy turns into the rocks and the other the fire. And so it's like all this stuff. And he was like, I want to make this movie about these, like, people that have that happen to them where it's all about the body horror.
00:27:14:11 - 00:27:17:21
Cullen
Yeah. You know, and that's really would be right. And to me, that.
00:27:17:21 - 00:27:19:23
Clark
Would be really interesting. But the studio, of course, didn't.
00:27:19:23 - 00:27:22:12
Cullen
Want that about this first superhero. If so.
00:27:22:16 - 00:27:31:19
Speaker 3
If this were like realist like I mean if it were actually real, right? Like if something you were irradiated or poisoned or something. I mean, obviously they were.
00:27:31:20 - 00:27:33:09
Clark
Teleported with a teleporter with.
00:27:33:09 - 00:27:34:10
Cullen
A fairly teleporter.
00:27:34:10 - 00:27:56:16
Speaker 3
With the fly. And I mean, you woke up the next day and your body was like actually physically changing, morphing fast enough that, you know, it's like, I mean, it's already bad enough just the regular aging process, which, you know, obviously that's a theme in this film and it's one that I recognize now at 45 that I never recognized when I was 12.
00:27:56:23 - 00:28:21:20
Speaker 3
But I mean, this film, I mean, I'm not kidding. Like, I watched this film and it's it is like so visceral, this feeling of like his teeth falling out, his fingernails falling out. Now, obviously, I've not that had that happen to me, although I have had to head a few root canals and crowns. So I close on the teeth thing, close on the teeth thing, but I mean but like, life is I mean, there is kind of a feeling like that.
00:28:21:20 - 00:28:40:19
Speaker 3
You like look in the mirror and every day you are watching your body disintegrate slowly like it is falling apart. Your body is literally falling apart and there's nothing you can do about it. And and that's just the regular aging process. Now, if you actually happen to be unfortunate enough to to get a disease or disorder.
00:28:41:02 - 00:28:41:08
Cullen
Or.
00:28:41:13 - 00:29:07:05
Speaker 3
Are disfigured just through like trauma in life or whatever, I mean, it it you know, it's wow, man, You know, so that already happens to everyone, to all of us. Now, imagine if that happened to you over the span of like a night instead of you know, 30 years. I mean. Yeah. None of these films, actually. Yeah, none of these films actually grapple with the reality of that, you know, except for this one.
00:29:07:05 - 00:29:23:00
Clark
Yeah. And that's exactly what I mean, is that it's like it's a shame that studios are so dead set on on this, because I genuinely think that if you made a movie like that, I think that it would do really well at the box office specifically because people would be like, Holy crap, I've never seen anything like this.
00:29:23:00 - 00:29:46:12
Clark
I've never, you know, or if even if it's never, you know, not completely, entirely original in the very least, it's like this is so refreshing. Yeah. And I mean, I think it shows that a lot of movies that have a lot of, you know, craft put into them that that are well-made and and are different enough. They do tend to honestly do quite well Usually they if they're good they they you know.
00:29:46:14 - 00:30:04:09
Speaker 3
Well it's interesting it's an interesting that's an interesting concept. And I think to just you know, to bring it a little bit back more to the fly here, it's like, you know, it's funny you think about like for most of us, not all of us, but most of us, you know, the disconnect between our minds and our bodies is pretty profound.
00:30:04:20 - 00:30:31:07
Speaker 3
We don't know what's going on inside of our own bodies. Like, you know, we have no awareness of like the internal movements and mechanization inside our body, Right. Like we and we're like underneath our skin. Most of us are terrified to see our bodies or experience our bodies, right? I mean, if you're seeing your bones or your muscles or your fat or like some other part of your body, like something's gone wrong, you know, like that is not a good thing.
00:30:31:15 - 00:30:44:03
Speaker 3
And it's so weird that we're like, you know, it's this whole mind body duality kind of thing, but we're like these just walking meat bags full of, like, flesh that grosses us out. It's our own body.
00:30:44:08 - 00:30:48:18
Clark
Yeah. And that just completely self regulates itself. And it's sometimes that goes wrong.
00:30:48:18 - 00:30:51:02
Speaker 3
It's always it goes wrong eventually. I mean.
00:30:51:08 - 00:30:52:08
Cullen
All of our bodies.
00:30:52:08 - 00:31:02:10
Speaker 3
Go wrong eventually. You know, I guess I don't know if you call it go wrong because it's just the way of nature. But I mean, so it's just, you know, I think this idea of like our bodies being alien even to us.
00:31:02:18 - 00:31:03:03
Cullen
Mm hmm.
00:31:04:00 - 00:31:24:10
Speaker 3
Is is I think is it's it's so interesting to watch Brundle go through that experience here in this film as his body. I mean, that's the thing that stood out. One of the things that stood out the most to me was and maybe and this is, you know, my own kind of personal, you know, obviously my own kind of attachment to it.
00:31:24:10 - 00:31:43:19
Speaker 3
But that's where I kind of related to it the most, I think, was this feeling of like my body is like alien even to myself, even though it is me. But yeah, but is it me? You know, and we don't we don't know. We don't even, you know, the whole mind body duality kind of thing and where the seed of our consciousness is and all this kind of stuff.
00:31:43:19 - 00:32:01:10
Speaker 3
They're interesting questions, but it's like our own bodies are freaking alien to us and, and they will get more alien to you as you age and, and they will betray you ultimately in the end, I think is a really interesting is a really interesting thing to explore. And I think that.
00:32:01:10 - 00:32:02:18
Cullen
Yeah, it was overwhelming and the.
00:32:02:18 - 00:32:29:00
Speaker 3
Desperation of of of Brundle you know to he feels his humanity obviously escaping and his desperation to try to I mean he even says you know I helped me become more human or human again to the point where he's willing to put, you know, this woman that he loves her life in almost certainly be grave danger, because we've already seen how crazy things happen with teleported so.
00:32:29:06 - 00:32:48:11
Clark
Well, I mean, that's and that's what I think is a really you know, even just a kind of metaphor in this film for like disease as well, which is this this personality changing element of it where, you know, because I. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Kid in my my grandmother had cancer what type of cancer she had. But she was on like a lot of medication for it before she.
00:32:48:11 - 00:32:50:00
Speaker 3
Chemotherapy and Yeah.
00:32:50:00 - 00:32:50:04
Cullen
Yeah.
00:32:50:04 - 00:33:16:15
Clark
And it's like a completely you know they don't remember people around them and their personality completely changes and it's like the same thing with something like Alzheimer's or dementia or something like that works with your personality. And that I think is like one of the really frightening parts of this movie is just how you can see. And I think Gina Davis especially doesn't a brilliant job with the reactions to it where it's like this, this desperation to just like want to talk to the person that they used to be and knowing that that person's never coming back.
00:33:17:00 - 00:33:29:06
Clark
And you can see that like every single time she visits him after after, you know, the accident and he's getting worse and worse and worse. And then you you finally, you know, meet this person who's no longer in any.
00:33:29:06 - 00:33:32:06
Cullen
Way what was by the end was, Yeah.
00:33:32:06 - 00:33:48:13
Clark
And, and, you know, even when he's like talking to her, I think it's one of the last time she's there where she's trying to tell him that she wants to get the abortion. And he does this whole like kind of little mini monologue about like, you know, insect politics and how it's like insects are brutal and ruthless. And he's like, if you don't leave.
00:33:48:13 - 00:33:49:11
Cullen
I will I.
00:33:49:11 - 00:34:15:03
Clark
Might hurt you because he has he's losing control. Yeah. And so it's this really, really, you know, tragic Like, it actually is kind of heart wrenching on top of it. And I think that's the thing is like, I don't think this movie would be made today by a major studio. And I think if this movie was made today, it would probably be a smaller studio and they would probably focus entirely on like the gross out hot body horror stuff and throw out all the emotional.
00:34:15:03 - 00:34:17:06
Cullen
Elements of it and they'll love you like it will be.
00:34:17:06 - 00:34:18:06
Clark
Like a human centipede.
00:34:18:07 - 00:34:20:02
Cullen
Not even it would be. Yeah, Yeah.
00:34:20:03 - 00:34:52:01
Clark
Like this, like this, this, you know, or he's turning into the monster and he's going to rip people apart and kill them. Whereas I think what makes this film so tragic is that it really is. It really does, I don't know, intentional or not, harking back to kind of like the universal monster movie thing or like King Kong, where it's it's still this like tragic Beauty and the Beast kind of love story, like you mentioned, where it's, you know, there's this there's at the end of the day, you still even when he is completely transformed and and melded with the pod at the end because of you know his attempt to to Fuze himself with
00:34:52:01 - 00:35:00:09
Clark
Geena Davis goes wrong and he crawls out and he puts the gun to his head that she's holding, It's still like you're still sitting there feeling so much sympathy for.
00:35:00:09 - 00:35:01:04
Cullen
This big time.
00:35:01:12 - 00:35:29:05
Clark
It's like, oh, my gosh. And I think what's amazing is that, you know, the film's runtime is only it's only, what, about an hour and a half an hour? And it's 96 minutes. And I think that that works really in its favor, not because it's quick. And again, it never feels like it's rushing. But I think the fact is, like by the end of the movie, when it when he comes out of that pod and he puts gun to his head and, you know, the film, of course, spoilers, but she shoots them and you're sitting there and you're like, Holy crap, this just happened in like an hour.
00:35:29:15 - 00:35:34:15
Clark
Yeah, Like, I think that's what's really remarkable is that you feel the speed at which this this, this transformation.
00:35:34:17 - 00:36:00:07
Speaker 3
And that that's what focus gives. You know we were talking I mean, that's another word we used words like simple or direct or small or intimate, but focused is maybe even the best word to use the story focus. It's efficient and it's focused. And it you know, it's not worried about the scientific politics of like how he's funded and how, you know, da da da da da da da like this, like trying to worry about explaining the science of it too much or all this other crap that a lot of other movies would put in.
00:36:00:12 - 00:36:30:02
Speaker 3
It's extremely focused. It's focused on for the most part, it's this trifecta of characters, which is this love triangle and you've got this really beautiful thing that happens here, which often which is not utilized very often in films where we have kind of a love triangle. We have Seth Brundle is the protagonist in the beginning, and we have, oh, I'm going to add, it's John gets his character and I'm blanking on his name, but John gets a status.
00:36:30:02 - 00:36:39:08
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's right. It is kind of set up as the antagonist with this woman in the middle who is, you know, and he's it's like.
00:36:39:08 - 00:36:41:07
Clark
They're he's kind of like their dirtbag boss.
00:36:41:07 - 00:36:55:17
Speaker 3
Yeah, he's and it's like he's kind Amy. He's this he's, you know, rude to her and he's, you know, he's cheesy and kind of misogynistic even in like, hey, let's like, get it on, even though we're not, you know, I mean, he's like this almost like this eighties kind of corporate, you know, slime.
00:36:55:18 - 00:37:02:02
Clark
Reminds me a lot of the guy from Ghostbusters oh, what's his name? That the guy with the beard from Ghostbusters.
00:37:02:15 - 00:37:03:01
Cullen
Yeah.
00:37:03:02 - 00:37:06:14
Speaker 3
I can't think of him, but. Or maybe, like one of the guys from RoboCop.
00:37:06:14 - 00:37:10:02
Cullen
We did that. Yes. You know, one of the corporations. One of them, one of the a very.
00:37:10:06 - 00:37:11:17
Clark
Very cliched cliche.
00:37:11:17 - 00:37:31:04
Speaker 3
Yeah, Yeah. And so we've got this kind of set up, but over the course of the film and it and it's more complicated than this because I don't the it's not just that Brundle becomes the antagonist although you know in many ways he does obviously but we have gets character actually redeems himself he actually rises to the occasion.
00:37:31:04 - 00:37:53:11
Speaker 3
He actually turns from this like sleazy kind of antagonistic guy who's like fits about being left by Geena Davis. And it's clear that he deserved it. I mean it because they're they're representing him as this like, you know, not a nice guy at all and won't let her move on with her life after she's you know, she's decided I don't want to be in this relationship.
00:37:53:11 - 00:38:07:08
Speaker 3
And he keeps trying to push it. He actually sacrifices his his hand, his foot, and he saves her life. And it's just we almost have this like this really interesting reversal.
00:38:07:19 - 00:38:42:13
Clark
And it's what's interesting, too, about that is that I find like perhaps the most, you know, intriguing element of it is that it's not even like it's still like a lot of like blurred morality there, too, for sure. His you know, his motivation going in isn't super altruistic, but at least in my reading of it, it almost seems like he's just going in to kill Seth, like he comes in with a shotgun and is like, you know, like it's almost this this still taking this character who is like, like you said, misogynistic and he's sort of like going in and being like, I'm a you know, I'm going to kill the thing that just stole
00:38:42:13 - 00:38:43:14
Clark
my, like, the girl that.
00:38:43:14 - 00:38:44:21
Cullen
Belongs to me. Yeah.
00:38:44:22 - 00:39:05:10
Clark
And so it's so it's in. So you get this this element that it's like, you know, you're you're he comes in and of course, as you said, he loses his hand and his foot and and then you, you realize you're like, oh my God, this is like it's I think it's a really brilliant choice on the part of Cronenberg's because you you kind of take a, you know, almost a double take.
00:39:05:10 - 00:39:12:03
Clark
You're like, hang, am I feeling bad for the the guy who spent this entire movie trying to like, sleep with Geena Davis and saying.
00:39:12:03 - 00:39:14:04
Cullen
You definitely vomit and.
00:39:14:04 - 00:39:21:22
Clark
You're sitting there, you're like, you're like, Oh, my God, Yeah. And suddenly you realize, like, this is how bad Seth has gotten. Not well, even Seth anymore.
00:39:21:22 - 00:39:22:08
Cullen
Can I just.
00:39:22:08 - 00:39:28:09
Speaker 3
Say that it's like one of the grossest. It's like a it's a pair of the grossest scenes.
00:39:28:14 - 00:39:29:06
Cullen
In almost.
00:39:29:06 - 00:39:50:22
Speaker 3
Any movie. When. Yeah, because. Because they've set this up. Right? You've got in the beginning of the film, you know, in the beginning of Brundle transformation into Brundle fly, you see him regurgitate onto a donut. And and we all know this too. Like, it's like every kid learns that, like, flies vomit on their food to digest it. And, you know, and we all know it's gross.
00:39:50:22 - 00:40:13:17
Speaker 3
And that's why when flies land on your food, you're grossed out because you know what they're doing. It's disgusting. So we all have kind of this aversion to that already. We know that, like, diseases are spread by flies and it right here, nobody likes flies, but you've got this set up where it's like we show him regurgitating on a donut and then he even makes this video where he's like documenting.
00:40:13:17 - 00:40:33:12
Speaker 3
Now this is we don't I don't want to get too off sidetrack here, but we actually have kind of interesting thing where this was in the beginning where people were kind of, you know, camcorders were consumer, you know, video machines were available. People started recording their daily lives, their family events. This is interesting because this film is kind of at the beginning of that.
00:40:33:12 - 00:40:45:12
Speaker 3
So he's kind of making his own documentary, Right. And he's describing how during his change, he now cannot consume food by eating it. He has to regurgitate it and then eat it after it's.
00:40:45:12 - 00:40:47:06
Cullen
Been digested outside of straw. Yeah.
00:40:47:06 - 00:41:01:05
Speaker 3
So it's this whole long set up. I mean, it's this long, long, like movie long setup. And then at the end you've got him regurgitating on his hand and his foot. And it's like, oh, I mean, yeah, it gets me viscerally to this.
00:41:01:07 - 00:41:04:15
Clark
Oh, it's really. And it's like the foot's like, it's like an acid and it's melting.
00:41:05:03 - 00:41:06:10
Cullen
Oh, and it's.
00:41:06:10 - 00:41:08:13
Clark
That bit in the fingernails that really get.
00:41:08:13 - 00:41:10:06
Cullen
Me in the movie. Oh I can't while fingernails.
00:41:10:13 - 00:41:30:15
Clark
I always squirm. I can't. Yeah, yeah. But it's, but it's in, it's the effects again. Like when I say that these effects are the reason they're so visceral is because they look so real. And for a movie that was made on this budget, the $9 million budget, like even back in 86, it's incredible that that you know this is.
00:41:31:02 - 00:41:31:17
Cullen
Well it's a man.
00:41:31:17 - 00:41:35:22
Clark
Compare it like this is a movie that came out a year after back to the future.
00:41:36:02 - 00:41:36:16
Cullen
Yeah right.
00:41:36:18 - 00:41:40:17
Clark
So it's not it's not like 86 is that long ago in the grand scheme of things.
00:41:41:13 - 00:41:48:12
Speaker 3
But it is it is pre CGI obviously. Obviously it's it's about a decade before CGI would start to be well in.
00:41:48:14 - 00:41:50:12
Clark
Jurassic Park 93 kind of broad.
00:41:50:12 - 00:41:51:07
Cullen
Yeah yeah yeah.
00:41:51:10 - 00:42:11:11
Speaker 3
But but but I just want to say to this day, like I get on a soapbox here for just a second, but I watch this film and you've got a man in a rubber suit, and that's basically what it is now. It's like seven stages. I think they only used six of, you know, extraordinarily complex, you know, man in a rubber suit stages.
00:42:11:11 - 00:42:43:18
Speaker 3
And I mean, but I still think this looks better and the performance is more moving and captivating and emotive with Goldbloom, a good actor actually there, and Geena Davis actually looking at this actor who's made up in this suit and there's like a real response to real things that are really there is so much better than the green blue screen, you know, acting to a tennis ball CGI crap that we get nowadays.
00:42:44:04 - 00:42:52:04
Speaker 3
I just I mean, I feel like this is head and shoulders above that. And this is, you know, how 35 years ago.
00:42:52:09 - 00:43:02:00
Clark
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And that's what the shame is that there's so many movies like that that deal with body horror in this way like the thing and.
00:43:02:00 - 00:43:02:06
Speaker 3
Yet.
00:43:02:08 - 00:43:03:00
Cullen
Another class.
00:43:03:00 - 00:43:25:05
Clark
And every single time that they've tried to either do like a sequel or a remake or any like that even the Alien movies, the new Alien movies were they're all CG and stuff like that. There's something. So again, I don't think you can ever replicate, like you can get the most incredible skilled technicians on a computer to write the most incredible algorithms that that disperse the light, the way that real stuff would disperse a light.
00:43:25:05 - 00:43:46:21
Clark
But I think you're still missing a part of it, which is the actors and their performances. And and just the fact that I also always think it's always I can never stand the idea of people just saying what's easier because so what if it is you're not making movies like you're supposed to be having fun making movies. Why are you right?
00:43:46:23 - 00:44:01:09
Clark
It's like it's like when I'm on set, I want to I want to have I want to have a big fly puppet covered in slime. Yeah, stuff like that. Like that to me is that filmmaking is not being like, well, in, you know, in post we're going to CG this thing in because it's easier. It's like, who cares?
00:44:01:12 - 00:44:28:12
Clark
Yeah, you know, it might be easier, but is it as fun? Is it as creative as it is engaging or challenging? No, it's that that's to me is what filmmaking is about. I think Cronenberg especially has, you know, you watch so many of his movies, even his earlier films that are even lesser budget, that have, you know, none of them really like this was, of course, distributed by 20th Century Fox and produced by Brooks Films, Mel Brooks Company, which is the same company that did the The Elephant Man, which we did a few episodes ago.
00:44:28:13 - 00:44:34:03
Clark
Right. But, you know, his earlier movies where he has similar effects.
00:44:34:14 - 00:44:36:14
Speaker 3
Like scanners, the head to head.
00:44:36:17 - 00:44:57:20
Clark
Yeah, exactly. Or some of the really neat effects with the TV in Videodrome and the like, the stomach stuff and that and it's I think that you have a director, David Cronenberg, who really just likes that stuff. And I think that's why it looks so good because it's not a tool or a task for him where he's like, Oh, I've got to make this look good, because otherwise the audiences are going to like it.
00:44:58:01 - 00:45:17:02
Clark
I think part of his joy is making it look good. So he's like, Yeah, I'm going to spend as much time as I can on making this look really incredible in it that serves the movie so unbelievably well. And again, like this, if it's suddenly halfway through the transformation, you know, it's like, okay, you've got makeup, makeup, makeup, which is probably how they do it today.
00:45:17:02 - 00:45:36:15
Clark
And then suddenly it would switch to a CGI being like there would be a point where it would switch over to have a replacement. And that to me would again, it would you would feel it. You would just you would get the feeling that, okay, now, Geena Davis is looking at a tennis ball on like a stick, like, you know, you would just suddenly have this this, this feeling of, you know, okay, that's that's no longer you know what?
00:45:36:18 - 00:46:03:10
Clark
I've always also sort of said this. And I think the reason that Jaws, despite the fact the shark doesn't look very realistic or the fact that practical effects you can often tell they are practical effects. I think one of the reason that actually works in favor for movies and works so viscerally and why Jaws still works so well and why this works really well is because despite the fact that you can tell that it's a puppet or it's an animatronic or it's whatever that's part of it, it's uncanny.
00:46:03:10 - 00:46:16:08
Clark
And I think that that's what makes it scary. I think the reason that the shark shark in Jaws is scary is not because it doesn't because it looks like a real shark, but rather quite the opposite, that it doesn't look like something out of nature. It looks like a monster.
00:46:16:08 - 00:46:17:17
Speaker 3
But they wasn't there, though. But you.
00:46:17:17 - 00:46:18:17
Cullen
Can tell exactly in.
00:46:19:05 - 00:46:38:13
Clark
There. And whereas if you if you look at like a modern shark movie or a movie that has effects like this, that that are all done by CG, their focus is on doing it as realistically as possible. So new Shark Movie, they would make a great white shark look photo realistic and it's like, well that's not scary because or it's less scary because that's just something that you could see out in nature.
00:46:38:19 - 00:47:05:08
Clark
It's no longer a monster, it's just an animal. Whereas when you have things like this that are that are still there's that uncanny ness about them where it's like it's it looks real and fake at the same time. It's it's incredible makeup skills. I feel like that to me is one of the things that makes these things so unsettling is that you can't quite tell like, oh, that's that looks so organic, but it's also it moves in a way that feels really, really disgusting and uncanny.
00:47:05:08 - 00:47:19:22
Clark
And I think that that's one of the almost the strong points of, you know, the quote unquote weakness of practical effects, which is is that like, oh, it looks like rubber or whatever. I think that that honestly serves the effect in the end because it makes it uncanny.
00:47:20:06 - 00:47:34:16
Speaker 3
That's interesting. I mean, I think that the makeup and this, you know, the this Brundle butterfly effects and the suits and everything, I mean, obviously I know that they're rubber, but I really don't think that they I mean, it really.
00:47:34:16 - 00:47:36:20
Clark
Oh, yeah they're they're incredibly convincing in this.
00:47:36:22 - 00:47:58:04
Speaker 3
Every phase looks so good now obviously it's like I know that it's not real, right. But I'm there is, there is something different about my ability to suspend disbelief and be affected by, let's say, you know, the effects in this film, which are real. They're they're they're on camera. I mean, it's you know, it's even though it's a rubber suit, I mean, it's real.
00:47:58:04 - 00:48:18:08
Speaker 3
It's a real person and there's real things happening. It just seems to me that I am more able to suspend kind of my disbelief and and settle into the story and be there than if it were like in an animated object right then. And I'm not sure why that is. Exactly.
00:48:18:08 - 00:48:26:02
Clark
And there's there's movies that use CG very well. You know, there's there's movies that have have blended those, too. Again, Fincher's.
00:48:26:02 - 00:48:32:03
Speaker 3
Signature uses CGI quite well. Yeah. He uses it to augment things very subtly.
00:48:32:14 - 00:48:52:04
Clark
Yeah. And in the end, you know, again, Jurassic Park, which would have come out, you know, seven years after this, um, which, you know, kind of ushered in. It wasn't the first movie to use major CG effects. James Cameron had used them in some of his movies in the eighties. But I think that the the like you look at a movie like that where it's like, okay, you've got practical, real.
00:48:52:08 - 00:49:13:19
Clark
I mean compare the first Jurassic Park to a movie like the new Jurassic Park or something like that, where all the dinosaurs are CG or even if they are practical dinosaurs, they're all enhanced by, you know, computer effects or something like that, and they feel way less real. Whereas I think the fact that you that the CGI was used sparingly or only really used in instances where you couldn't have used anything else.
00:49:13:19 - 00:49:15:08
Speaker 3
Like the full the full body.
00:49:15:08 - 00:49:34:19
Clark
The full body, huge, you know, 50 foot tall, whatever. Right. You know, that to me is where CG like I'm not a completely anti CG person. I think that there's as with anything, there's, there's uses for every tool. However, in a movie like this, I think that had they gone the easy route which I mean if that was made today easy, it would be, of course.
00:49:34:19 - 00:49:50:13
Clark
CG As you said, I think it would lose the visceral ness. It would you lose the texture and the the the performances would suffer for it. And I think the fact that it's actually Jeff Goldblum, like, I think that the discomfort he probably felt getting in that makeup.
00:49:50:16 - 00:49:51:02
Cullen
Yeah.
00:49:51:02 - 00:50:07:02
Clark
Adds so much and I'm sure you've got the experience as well and I've got this experience is that when when I would do, you know, theater or even some film stuff where it was like the costume was really uncomfortable. Or like I remember one time I was, I was playing this old man and I, like, put cotton balls in my mouth.
00:50:07:19 - 00:50:25:06
Clark
And it was and I had this, like, really, like, uncomfortable costume on and this wig. And that to me, made my performance so much better because I was able to use that discomfort in the performance and sort of hobble in and feel like I was an old man whose back ached and to speak proper cotton in my mouth.
00:50:25:06 - 00:50:27:16
Cullen
And yeah, and Goldblum's.
00:50:27:16 - 00:50:29:16
Clark
Performance really you know plays off of.
00:50:29:16 - 00:50:30:00
Cullen
That.
00:50:30:05 - 00:50:47:21
Speaker 3
I've even had like a lot of like makeup and special effects stuff. And I did a, I had a whole thing where I had like a false eye that popped out of my head in a film that I did and had like these boils on my body that I like had to cut off. And it was like totally body humor or humor body.
00:50:48:10 - 00:50:49:10
Cullen
And also.
00:50:49:10 - 00:50:50:10
Clark
Depending on who you're talking.
00:50:50:10 - 00:50:50:23
Cullen
To, depends on.
00:50:51:03 - 00:51:18:06
Speaker 3
Talking to me. But, you know, just like this oozy, wet, you know, fleshy like body horror kind of stuff. And yeah, I mean, to have that stuff actually there makes all the difference in the world from an actor's performance because it's like, you know, you can see it, you can touch it. It's, it's, it's real. And even though it's, it's like makeup, it's like it's such a small step for your mind to be like, this is real, right?
00:51:18:06 - 00:51:33:15
Speaker 3
Just like you were saying, you know, it's like I if you're an actor and you put on a costume like, you know, it's not your clothes, but the jump to make that your your clothes is such a small one, you know. But I you know, it's just a much bigger divide to be like this tennis ball is a dragon or something.
00:51:33:15 - 00:51:34:03
Speaker 3
You know it.
00:51:34:12 - 00:51:36:00
Cullen
And it's you can do it. Yeah.
00:51:36:05 - 00:51:54:08
Speaker 3
I mean, the imagination can do all kinds of things. And there are people out there who are quite skilled at green screen acting. But I just think that, you know, in the grand scheme of things, it seems to me, yeah, practical effects seem to. Maybe it's just personal, I just prefer them and maybe that's because I grew up with them.
00:51:55:23 - 00:52:06:01
Speaker 3
It'll be exciting to see where CGI goes. Obviously this is going to it's a work in progress and they're going to continue to refine that and who knows where that's going to lead. You know that it's.
00:52:07:06 - 00:52:07:18
Cullen
We're still.
00:52:07:18 - 00:52:14:00
Clark
Some really exciting stuff with like the the augmented reality that they're doing now with the LED screens. And I think that's really neat.
00:52:14:00 - 00:52:14:08
Cullen
Right?
00:52:14:08 - 00:52:34:18
Clark
But I think that the reason that's neat is because it's kind of bring it back to the classic element of like actors being able to see where they are, what they're reacting against and stuff like that. I think that's what works for for that. And you've almost also seen kind of a renaissance of practical effects lately as well, that like a lot of the new, you know, for better or for worse, the new Star Wars movies have used a lot of practical effects.
00:52:35:07 - 00:52:49:19
Clark
And, you know, some of the the like big blockbusters have kind of brought that back, which is which is nice to see. I mean, it's not to say to like this movie, I'm sure that, you know, because they have that rotating set so that, you know, Brundle can climb on the walls.
00:52:49:19 - 00:52:50:00
Cullen
Right.
00:52:50:00 - 00:52:51:18
Speaker 3
The rotisserie, you know, And he can. Yeah.
00:52:52:00 - 00:53:16:22
Clark
So so at the end there's a there's a bit when he's on the roof or the ceiling and Geena Davis is like talking to him. Of course, that's two different sets. You know, she's standing on the one that's upright and he's he's upside down. So it's not like they shot those where she's actually looking at him. So there's always going to be a level of suspension of disbelief for the actors to be able to go, oh, of course, Like it's not like you know, it's not like when they shot that you had Jeff Goldblum on the roof when you were shooting her single.
00:53:16:23 - 00:53:38:19
Speaker 3
Oh, this even happens. This happens all the time, even when you're not, you know, I mean, it's like a lot of times depending on where you're shooting, I mean, you shoot somebody close ups and then you switch to the other side. And if, you know, let's say like you're a five line costar on a TV show and the other person is the star of the show, you may not even they may just walk off the set and you've got to like, do your lines to the air or something.
00:53:38:19 - 00:53:42:15
Speaker 3
I mean, yeah, this happens all the time. And it but.
00:53:42:15 - 00:53:52:09
Clark
Having the the, the initial, you know, even just the fact that Gina Davis knows what he was supposed to look like there, they can see that and can feel that.
00:53:52:09 - 00:53:53:22
Cullen
And oh, there are some great.
00:53:53:22 - 00:53:55:12
Speaker 3
Behind the scenes footage on the Blu.
00:53:55:12 - 00:53:55:17
Cullen
Ray.
00:53:55:20 - 00:53:57:02
Clark
Yeah, I've got to check that out.
00:53:57:02 - 00:54:19:21
Speaker 3
Yeah, I highly recommend. I mean, it's just a regular studio release. It's it's nothing fancy, but it has a wonderful commentary track by Cronenberg and it also has a, a two. I think with all the little enhancements, it's almost like two and a half hour long feature documentary film, which is fantastic. But I mean, it's it's got all these outtakes of her, you know, pulling the jaw.
00:54:19:21 - 00:54:22:07
Cullen
Off the edge, which, yeah.
00:54:22:07 - 00:54:23:13
Clark
That scene is gross, too.
00:54:23:20 - 00:54:24:08
Cullen
I mean, I.
00:54:24:08 - 00:54:49:20
Speaker 3
Mean, like, I mean, she is genuinely, genuinely freaked out. You know, it's funny. It's like you are really I mean, it's disgusting. But that I mean, that I just like like as we wrap up here, we're talking about the practical effects. I do just want to say, you know, where that final transformation where Brundle fly is pulling Geena Davis into the pod.
00:54:50:03 - 00:55:07:01
Speaker 3
And it's this final like transformation. And there's this molting that occurs where the full blown insect, who is no longer any humanity at all, emerges from within the shell of Brundle fly. Oh, my.
00:55:07:01 - 00:55:08:23
Clark
God. It's incredible. Yeah.
00:55:08:23 - 00:55:14:00
Speaker 3
Oh, I mean, it is the most vi. I mean, I would have to say that even.
00:55:14:07 - 00:55:16:14
Clark
I mean flesh is just like falling off of a man.
00:55:16:16 - 00:55:25:01
Speaker 3
I think it even eclipses anything that's in the thing, which I feel like is one of the, you know, absolutely sort of practical physical effects and makeup.
00:55:25:01 - 00:55:41:09
Clark
I think I would agree. No, I think I think that the effects in this film actually do I agree with you? I think that even the the earlier stuff. Yeah. I think that the attention to detail on that, the thing looks fantastic. Yeah. But I think the thing because it's so fantastical still kind of there's, there's levels where you're like, oh okay.
00:55:41:09 - 00:56:04:14
Clark
I can see how they did that. Yeah. This movie is such an incredible mix of effects. But, but again, even even, you know, going with that a bit like, you know, Gina Davis pulling off the thing and she's actually pulling the jaw off like when we were shooting daylight, which we discussed this in the last episode, there's the scene when we shot in the in like the cellar, and it was like dusty and dark and like dank.
00:56:04:14 - 00:56:13:01
Clark
And it was just this and, you know, the our lead actress really, like we had to keep spraying like glycerin on her.
00:56:13:01 - 00:56:13:10
Cullen
To get the.
00:56:13:10 - 00:56:40:09
Clark
Sweat and stuff. And by the end of the shoot, we didn't even need to because it would be had this whole day in this like dusty dungeon, essentially. And I think had we shot that on a like a soundstage or like built a set for that, it would have had a completely different effect was the fact that we were actually in these tunnels and like real, you know, this real that was that was dusty and really not the, you know, cleanest best place to be.
00:56:40:09 - 00:56:44:12
Clark
And I think that added to so much of the feel and the texture of that, I'm sure.
00:56:44:12 - 00:56:45:02
Cullen
No doubt.
00:56:45:02 - 00:57:01:16
Clark
Yeah. And so it's, you know, again, I see that so much in this where it's like the Gina Davis being able to pull the jaw off of. Yeah. Of Brundle fly in it's this really that that that scene is so. Oh let it be done. Oh and if you haven't seen this I know we've kind of, you know, spoiled the movie, but if you.
00:57:01:16 - 00:57:04:14
Cullen
Haven't seen I mean, it's ridiculous if you're listening to this. Yeah.
00:57:04:16 - 00:57:12:18
Speaker 3
If you're listening to this and you've made it to minute 58 and you haven't seen this film from 1986, what in the world are you doing?
00:57:12:18 - 00:57:13:21
Cullen
I mean, I guess it's.
00:57:13:21 - 00:57:15:18
Clark
Like, well, maybe they would really like to hear us talk.
00:57:15:23 - 00:57:37:07
Speaker 3
Maybe, maybe. And we and don't get me wrong, we appreciate you, but yeah, go see the film. And it is absolutely I think not only is it a great story and, you know, we have focused a lot on the practical effects because obviously that's one of the things that really stands out from the film. Yeah, and it's fun to talk about it, but but there is a lot more to this film than that.
00:57:37:15 - 00:57:38:21
Speaker 3
Great performances.
00:57:39:04 - 00:57:40:21
Cullen
Great score, a lot.
00:57:40:21 - 00:57:42:00
Clark
Of subtlety in in.
00:57:42:06 - 00:58:09:19
Speaker 3
Really interesting themes and and yeah it's just and it's fun to see a young Jeff Goldblum doing his kind of cool science to staying before he really honed in on that and Jurassic Park and that kind of became like his thing you know for a while. And Geena Davis is fantastic as well. And that's kind of this is before she went on to, you know, I think was a League of Her Own, a League of Their Own and Thelma and Louise.
00:58:09:19 - 00:58:26:08
Speaker 3
And she became, you know, a leading lady and a big actress in her own right, too. So this is like a little earlier in both of their careers. But yeah, and I mean, and hey, you know Canada, right? What more can you ask for in a film now.
00:58:26:08 - 00:58:26:22
Clark
Exactly.
00:58:27:07 - 00:58:30:06
Cullen
Toronto. Nothing else to add. All right, guys. Well, yeah.
00:58:30:12 - 00:58:38:04
Speaker 3
Well, Cullen, as always, man, it was a pleasure. This is a fantastic choice. So great selection. It was a blast to watch this again.
00:58:38:04 - 00:58:39:18
Cullen
And that's a test movie. Yeah.
00:58:39:19 - 00:58:48:18
Speaker 3
Yeah. And everybody else out there, We hope that you enjoyed our discussion of the fly. Until next time, everybody. Have a wonderful week.