Clark
Hello, everyone, and welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. With me, as always, is Mr. Mustache, Cullen McFater.
00:00:20:00 - 00:00:21:05
Cullen
Now, that's what they call me now.
00:00:22:11 - 00:00:23:11
Clark
How are you doing, man?
00:00:23:16 - 00:00:24:03
Cullen
Good, Good.
00:00:24:04 - 00:00:34:14
Clark
How are you? I'm doing well. And I, of course, am Clark coffey. And today on episode 46. Wow. I can't believe it's 46. And I know we said 50. What?
00:00:35:00 - 00:00:35:13
Cullen
Almost at.
00:00:35:13 - 00:00:54:10
Clark
50. We're going to have to think of something special to do. 450, Man, We'll have to. We're going to have to put our heads together and think of something. 50th anniversary. That's a big one. But we are covering Martin Scorsese's 1986 film, The Color of Money, starring Paul Newman.
00:00:54:20 - 00:00:56:03
Cullen
Tom Cruise.
00:00:56:13 - 00:01:26:04
Clark
You've got Forest, Whitaker's in there, You've got Who else do we have? I mean, this film is packed with great with great performances, but I'm excited to get into this with you. This is a film, you know, it's definitely I mean, look, Scorsese, he's made a million great films. This one often kind of is a little wonder you know stays a little on the down low, you know Yeah, it's a little lower profile, but I think it's an outstanding film and I think it's kind of an interesting film for a handful of reasons.
00:01:26:04 - 00:01:40:04
Clark
So I'm excited to discuss it with you today. So like right off the bat, let's jump into one of my favorite parts of our discussion, our personal experience with the film. And as I understand it, you've not seen the film before?
00:01:40:12 - 00:01:44:21
Cullen
No, I've seen The Hustler, which of course, is a sequel to Right Jersey. So.
00:01:44:21 - 00:01:45:15
Clark
Okay, so not.
00:01:45:15 - 00:01:47:17
Cullen
Really recall The Hustler all that well, but.
00:01:47:21 - 00:01:48:05
Clark
Right.
00:01:49:02 - 00:01:52:02
Cullen
But yeah, this was the first time I'd seen this one. What did.
00:01:52:02 - 00:01:52:14
Clark
You think?
00:01:53:00 - 00:02:14:22
Cullen
I loved it. Yeah, I thought it was great. I'm a big, you know, as everyone is. I really like Scorsese. He and I think that he's, you know, the really masterful director, an interesting director for me, because I don't I have limited influence from him. Okay? You know, like, I don't I don't really set out to make movies like him in a weird way, but I love him.
00:02:14:22 - 00:02:36:10
Cullen
And it's like he I think he's really, really an interesting director. I guess my my intonations are different. But, you know, I thought this was a it was a it's very fun. It's it's for the most part, I'd say a light hearted movie. And and but it also, you know, there's there's some you know, pretty, pretty heavy drama stuff in there.
00:02:36:10 - 00:02:49:18
Cullen
And you know, you get the I love Newman Newman's my favorite actor as well or at least definitely one of Yeah yeah. And so I think that his performances were or his performance was amazing are Tom Cruise coming up Top gun which.
00:02:50:07 - 00:02:51:20
Clark
Which hadn't been released yet though.
00:02:51:20 - 00:02:52:18
Cullen
Yeah it hadn't even been released.
00:02:52:18 - 00:03:05:03
Clark
So this is that's one of the things that makes this film interesting is that this is Tom Cruise before he really turned into International Star. Star Tom Cruise. Yeah, exactly.
00:03:05:04 - 00:03:07:17
Cullen
Because he'd done what he he was in The Outsiders.
00:03:07:23 - 00:03:23:21
Clark
Well, he was in the Outsiders. He was in Risky Business and Risky Business. And if I'm not mistaken, I think it was probably because of his performance in Risky Business that he was cast in this film. Don't want to speak out of turn. That's what's kind of popping into my head right now. Yeah.
00:03:23:21 - 00:03:25:01
Cullen
Yeah, I think that's a safe bet.
00:03:26:06 - 00:03:52:07
Clark
But yeah, I mean, we're looking at it's 1986, you know, if you look into Tom Cruise's filmography, he had done not a ton, he'd done a handful of films, but like you're correct, he done outsider's risky. I mean, he had, I think four films come out in 83, if I'm not mistaken. And, you know, of those certainly Risky Business was by far and away the largest film, and he had done, I think, in 85, Legend Ridley Scott's film.
00:03:52:22 - 00:03:59:00
Clark
And that was not a big hit at all. I don't even think it made its budget back on.
00:03:59:04 - 00:04:02:17
Cullen
I mean, yet he was by no means unknown, but.
00:04:02:17 - 00:04:07:06
Clark
No, not unknown. He was not the international superstar. Right. It was kind of.
00:04:07:06 - 00:04:08:01
Cullen
I think Top gun.
00:04:08:01 - 00:04:25:16
Clark
Sort of Top gun. Yeah. And you're talking there about a film, you know, of course, that's Tony Scott. So it's interesting. Cruise worked with both brothers, Tony and Ray by this point. But yeah, I mean, look, we all know Top Gun when Top Gun was released. I think that was ish 15 million and that thing pulled in over 350 million in the box office.
00:04:25:16 - 00:04:30:16
Clark
It was, you know, a cultural phenomenon. I love Andrew And then.
00:04:30:20 - 00:04:31:12
Cullen
Top Gun fan.
00:04:31:17 - 00:04:50:16
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. It's great. And then that, you know and then he really say, oh, now it's interesting. Like right after that in 88 he did cocktail which is hysterical and I actually got that we're going to make this episode. We're not going to make this episode about Tom Cruise. But but it's fun to find context for the film, you know, for Color of Money.
00:04:51:20 - 00:04:55:01
Clark
And then, of course, Tom went on to be Tom and, you know, did that.
00:04:55:02 - 00:05:15:11
Cullen
But yeah, I mean, first things first. Yeah, I mean, I, I loved it. Yeah, I, yeah, I can't we'll get into the specifics of course, but I wasn't surprised. I mean, I think most of the time I wind up liking scores as in movies, but I think that I what, what really took me on this one was that and again, we'll get to this much more when we're talking about the direction and stuff like that.
00:05:15:11 - 00:05:23:18
Cullen
But I thought that it was it was an interestingly subdued Scorsese Z for the first half and then really became more of a scores as each like like.
00:05:23:20 - 00:05:24:18
Clark
Stylistically.
00:05:24:18 - 00:05:26:09
Cullen
Stylistically these buildings.
00:05:26:14 - 00:05:28:19
Clark
A lot of energy Yeah a lot of energy.
00:05:28:19 - 00:05:37:08
Cullen
Got very kinetic in the second half. Kinetic again, I can't even say I prefer one over the other because one of my favorite course AC movies is Silence, which has none of that kinetic.
00:05:37:09 - 00:05:38:13
Clark
Yes, totally.
00:05:38:16 - 00:05:47:23
Cullen
Very, very subdued. But no, I really was was impressed by the movie on a technical and you know, just as a storytelling.
00:05:47:23 - 00:06:04:16
Clark
Yeah now now I'm curious like what would you consider that? You know, some people think this is kind of like a sports like it's in the sports genre. You know, you also have elements, not necessarily like a con film, but but hustlers are kind of con men, right?
00:06:04:16 - 00:06:06:14
Cullen
So there's they're like legal con men in a way.
00:06:06:14 - 00:06:21:10
Clark
Yeah. There's kind of like, you know, is this like a con artist film? Is it a sports film? Is it is it a mentorship kind of mentor mentee film? There's elements of all of these things. Did you have any expectations at all about the film going into it? I mean, you know, it's.
00:06:21:10 - 00:06:25:22
Cullen
It's no, I again, I hadn't seen The Hustler in so long, really.
00:06:26:04 - 00:06:44:14
Clark
And it's and it's not a film of Scorsese backlog or, you know, filmography that I think really stands out much, which is why I wanted to pick it, because I don't take it It doesn't it's a it kind of lays low and I think it could be easily overlooked. And I think actually in a lot of ways it has been including with its transfer.
00:06:44:14 - 00:07:11:13
Clark
But we're going to get to that as well later. But well, for me, you know, this film came out in 86. I was ten years old when it was released. I certainly had not seen The Hustler yet. But, you know, when this film came out at ten years old, I wasn't given to watching, you know, 1960, early sixties black and white films, I don't think probably wouldn't have caught my attention, but I didn't see the film probably until, you know, it came out on cable, like a lot of these eighties films.
00:07:11:13 - 00:07:23:06
Clark
And if you guys have been listening to this podcast for a while, I just realized it seems like a lot of my picks are films that came out in the mid eighties. Clearly, this was a time frame for me where a.
00:07:23:06 - 00:07:24:04
Cullen
Formative and.
00:07:24:06 - 00:07:44:11
Clark
Formative formative time frame. But, you know, I probably saw this film, you know, three, four ish years later. So I remember watching it. I think either like late junior high or high school and, you know, so Tom Cruise would have probably been the person that would have stood out to me most. I don't know how many Newman films I had seen.
00:07:44:11 - 00:08:03:23
Clark
I certainly, of course, knew of Newman, but but yeah, I mean, I think as a kid it was probably, you know, the the way Scorsese shoots with such confidence, these characters are cool, right? I mean, Newman is super cool in his own way. Cruz is all the.
00:08:03:23 - 00:08:04:14
Cullen
Hothead.
00:08:04:20 - 00:08:24:18
Clark
Goofy, although goofy, you know, to it, you know, 12 year old kid or whatever I was, you know, he came off as like being super cool, you know, And you've got the, you know, they're the pool sharks and you've got this amazing pool photography, you know, and the music and everything very like a kinetic film. So I remember very much loving it.
00:08:24:18 - 00:09:03:09
Clark
And then as I got older, I got I started to get more interested in the relationship between Newman and Cruz and this whole kind of, you know, dynamic of hustlers and con artists and mentorship relationships. And that became like very intriguing to me. And you know, what is winning? What is losing, and I think is an interesting kind of metaphor here for for a lot of us, unfortunately, as we go through life where, you know, we kind of start off wanting to do whatever it is we end up doing in life because we have a passion for it.
00:09:03:09 - 00:09:23:06
Clark
Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully. And and that kind of becomes corrupt over time. We do things for money and, you know, this is kind of part of the necessity of life, right? I mean, we have to pay our bills, most of us. We have to earn an income and so that we have a roof and food. And so, you know, this passion can come be could kind of become corrupted.
00:09:24:02 - 00:09:44:13
Clark
And then a lot of our life might be spent trying to find that passion and love again for what we originally, you know, wanted to do. And I certainly have had experiences like this in the film industry. So now, many, many years later, as an older adult with a lot more experience under my belt, I see this film even in a totally new way.
00:09:44:13 - 00:09:54:04
Clark
So one of the kind of signs of a good film to me is that it can grow with its audience over time, and I feel like this film really has, at least for me.
00:09:54:16 - 00:09:55:21
Cullen
So definitely. Yeah.
00:09:56:00 - 00:10:16:23
Clark
So okay, cool. Well, I'll be interested to see, you know, so we have I have a history with the film. You don't have a history with the film, so it'll be interesting as we kind of go through certain aspects of the film, we'll kind of compare notes. It'll be interesting to have a couple of different perspectives. So I think we talked a little bit about context for the film, and we'll expand on that a little bit because I think it's important.
00:10:16:23 - 00:10:38:06
Clark
It kind of educates a lot of the other ways that you can look at the film. I mean, it is a sequel, like you said, to The Hustler and the Hustler. I actually did watch it again, and I hadn't seen it for maybe about a decade. So I watched it right before I watched The Color of Money This Time.
00:10:38:14 - 00:11:05:21
Clark
And Hustler is 1961. That's Newman. Gleason plays Minnesota Fats, who is, I guess, basically the kind of Newman's arch rival, Fast Eddie Felson. That's Newman's character in both of these films, by the way. Got to love that name, Fast Eddie and Minnesota Fats. Those are great names. But but in that film, Newman is almost kind of in a way, in the Tom Cruise role in Color of Money.
00:11:06:07 - 00:11:08:01
Cullen
Yeah, he's that kind of place.
00:11:08:01 - 00:11:26:22
Clark
That yeah, he's the he's the younger pool player. He's in it to be the best. You know, he has a passion for pool. The money is not as important. He just wants to be the best. He seeks out Minnesota Fats, who's notorious to be, you know, as the best pool hustler in the land. And ultimately he ends up being beat.
00:11:27:15 - 00:12:00:03
Clark
And we go through this. And it's interesting because the hustler is actually very much a love story in a sense. I mean, there's not actually a ton of pool. If you really look at the film. A lot of the film is spent with the relationship between Fast Eddie and Piper, Laurie's character and their relationship. She's an alcoholic and but but she sees even though she has struggles with her own issues with alcoholism and she's kind of, you know, this abandoned character, in a sense, she sees how he's being corrupted by Oh, yeah, by George.
00:12:00:03 - 00:12:01:02
Clark
She's to see Scott.
00:12:01:02 - 00:12:03:17
Cullen
She's very much almost like a third eye in a way. Yeah.
00:12:03:18 - 00:12:30:12
Clark
Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. And she kind of sees that his passion for the game and his desire to just be pure and be the best is being corrupted by by these other characters desire for money and, you know, and they don't really have a passion. They're just kind of using him. He's a pawn. He's, you know, these people are bored, kind of cynical, corrupt characters, and he's fallen into this world with them.
00:12:30:12 - 00:12:49:16
Clark
And and of course, by the end of the film, that's exactly what happens. I mean, he does beat Minnesota Fats, but he is kind of run out of the game. And he has got to, you know, through the course of the film, he's kind of become one of them, in effect. And so that's where we find him at the start of this film.
00:12:50:18 - 00:12:53:20
Cullen
And we almost like a bar. He's a liquor salesman, too. He's kind of.
00:12:55:06 - 00:13:03:05
Clark
Well, and it's interesting to note he he's selling he's selling like generic liquor and fake labels so that people.
00:13:03:08 - 00:13:06:14
Cullen
So it's one of the first quick lines is like, can you get me some Jack Daniels labels or.
00:13:06:14 - 00:13:29:07
Clark
Yeah. So he's so he's a connoisseur artist and kind of a hustler in every sense of the word. I mean, but it's interesting to note, too, you know, that in 86 when this film came out, Scorsese, who definitely, of course, had a reputation at this point, he had shot several films, but some of the biggest being Mean Streets, Taxi Driver and Raging Bull, of course, extremely critically successful films.
00:13:29:18 - 00:13:48:13
Clark
But he had had a run of a couple of films after that that weren't very successful. He did King of Comedy in 82. He did After Hours in 85. And although I personally think these are great films and I think most people have come around to agree with that sentiment at the time, they were really disappointing and so.
00:13:48:18 - 00:13:49:19
Cullen
Yeah, they didn't do well at.
00:13:49:19 - 00:14:15:12
Clark
All, didn't do well at all. And so here we have Newman actually coming to Scorsese. He said, I'd like you to direct this film. The book, the author of Of The Hustler had just written two years prior in 80 for this book, The Color of Money, and Newman was looking to reprise his role as Fast Eddie Felson. So he comes to Scorsese and hires him basically to do this job.
00:14:15:12 - 00:14:36:09
Clark
So it's in a sense, this is, you know, Newman had probably more to do with this film being put together than Scorsese. And it's interesting, I and I don't you know, I don't I want to be careful. I'm not sure if this is 100% fact, but I get kind of a sense that Scorsese, he almost doesn't see this as like really one of his films, that he almost kind of sees himself as a gun for hire.
00:14:36:19 - 00:14:53:03
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I can understand that too, that it's yeah, you know, it probably wasn't something that he had been thinking about for a long time. I know. I think I think Last Temptation of the Christ actually has been canned by one of the studios that they were going to do it in. And so he was really kind of down.
00:14:53:09 - 00:14:55:14
Cullen
Yeah. But the fact that that wasn't made, which.
00:14:55:14 - 00:14:57:10
Clark
Was clearly a passionate project for.
00:14:57:10 - 00:15:18:11
Cullen
Him. Exactly. So but I can I can totally understand, you know, I've I've done things that I've directed that I haven't written or really been involved in much of the pre-production on, were able to sort of come in to direct and of course made those decisions. But I don't really see those as things that I, you know, if you now really show off as my own either.
00:15:18:11 - 00:15:33:07
Cullen
Yeah, that's much more of something that I'm kind of like, Oh yeah, I was it was much more of a job and like you said, kind of a hired gun. So I can totally understand why because as he wouldn't, wouldn't necessarily consider this in his like if you get a score as a box set that he himself curated, I could see him leaving this one out.
00:15:33:09 - 00:15:34:12
Clark
Yeah, I think so.
00:15:34:12 - 00:15:45:20
Cullen
But that doesn't speak to its quality at all. I would say that this, you know, again, I think both of us really, really liked this movie. Yeah. But more so that I just understand that, you know, with Scorsese, it wasn't, it wasn't his. It wasn't like.
00:15:45:20 - 00:15:46:05
Clark
Yeah.
00:15:46:06 - 00:15:47:04
Cullen
That he had been dreaming.
00:15:47:04 - 00:16:10:01
Clark
Of originally. He didn't originate the story. Yeah, it's a sequel. Obviously, we don't have we don't have Scorsese shooting sequels at any other point in his, you know, filmography. So so yeah. And it's interesting to, you know, Tom Cruise, like we said before, Tom Cruise certainly was a name and he was clearly a rising star, but Top Gun had not released.
00:16:10:01 - 00:16:28:08
Clark
And so he wasn't, you know, the Tom Cruise we all know and love. And I think it's great because here you see Tom Cruise, let it really, I think let it all out. He really goes for it. He's over the top in a lot of ways. And I mean that in the best of senses. You know, his The Werewolf of London scene where he's slaying his opponents.
00:16:28:08 - 00:16:42:06
Clark
I mean, he really goes for it and he's you know, he's just he's he's a total goof. He's a total flake. And you just you don't see this you don't see him taking on roles like this really ever again in his filmography. No. I mean, where he's.
00:16:42:06 - 00:17:00:12
Cullen
Kind of almost not an antagonist, but he's not he there's not really think redemption for him. He doesn't he doesn't like, come out of it being like, Oh, yeah, you know, Cruise. I loved his character. He was not that, you know, he's a great character, but not in a good person sense. Yeah. It's also interesting too.
00:17:00:14 - 00:17:15:13
Clark
And it's not his movie. It's just that he feels this movie. And so you don't see Tom Cruise with rare exception. I mean, you have his kind of big cameo, I guess you might call it in Magnolia, but you don't see Tom Cruise, really? You don't see him playing second fiddle.
00:17:15:20 - 00:17:33:12
Cullen
You don't also I mean, it's the thing is, it's interesting actually about kind of I think the structure of the movie is that you think starting off that it is going to be that that that Tom Cruise is going to be the main character and that it's going to sort of be like a handoff movie where it's like you get the old, you know, master handing it off to the young gun.
00:17:33:12 - 00:17:49:17
Cullen
But it really goes back into a movie about Felson, you know. Yeah. And so I think I think what's also interesting is that Walter Tevis wrote a screenplay for it that was rejected, but apparently it was quite different. And so.
00:17:49:18 - 00:17:54:02
Clark
Well, and let's let's add a note real quick here. So Walter Tevis wrote.
00:17:54:02 - 00:17:54:08
Cullen
Yes.
00:17:54:10 - 00:18:14:00
Clark
The Hustler, the novel. And he also wrote The Color of Money, the novel. And just as a quick little piece of trivia, he also wrote The Queen's Gambit, which is a recent Netflix miniseries that was very, very successful. But okay, so that's interesting. So go back to that. So so Tevis did write an original screenplay that was rejected, you said.
00:18:14:09 - 00:18:19:04
Cullen
Yeah. So yeah. So apparently they decided not to use it. And so then it was written by Richard Price.
00:18:19:16 - 00:18:22:23
Clark
So who is nominated for an Academy Award for this film, by the way?
00:18:22:23 - 00:18:58:06
Cullen
Yeah. And so I wonder I've never read the the novel either of them. I've never read The Hustler or Color of Money by Walter Tevis. But I'm curious if, like, how similar they are, because apparently the novel wasn't written necessarily to be a sequel, that it was written to be sort of a separate story. So I'd be curious to know if that means, you know, because it's so vague, it could just mean that it was written to center around perhaps Cruise's character in the novel as well, or it could mean that it, like the novel, may have had little to do with, you know, Eddie.
00:18:58:10 - 00:19:20:10
Clark
And and this film is totally could be standalone. I mean, I would assume that the vast, vast, vast majority of the people who saw this film in 86 did not see The Hustler in 61. I mean, you know, you're talking about a 25 year time span divided into two films. So, you know, this film totally stands on its own.
00:19:20:21 - 00:19:25:23
Clark
I think there is some added texture. There's some added depth. If you had seen The Hustler and.
00:19:25:23 - 00:19:27:07
Cullen
If you watched them back to back, even.
00:19:27:14 - 00:19:35:02
Clark
If you watch them back to back, you really see that there are some ties. It ties into each other in some really nice subtle ways, almost.
00:19:35:02 - 00:19:36:15
Cullen
Like a longer narrative arc.
00:19:37:04 - 00:20:06:05
Clark
But yet there you go. It's a longer narrative arc because you actually, you know, if you kind of think of it, we come in, Eddie and Newman's character here, it's actually kind of in the middle of his arc. Yeah. If you look at both films together. So it does add a lot and just cool little tiny callbacks. There's a handful of lines where they talk about character being the most important aspect of being a good player in The Hustler.
00:20:06:12 - 00:20:22:06
Clark
We have some fun callbacks here to character Helen Shaver's character here is love. Interest talks about character. So there's there's just a handful of little callbacks there to actually payoff quite nicely if you've seen and Remember The Hustler, it's.
00:20:22:06 - 00:20:41:02
Cullen
Also funny you don't have to. Yeah, I hadn't seen, as I said, The Hustler for maybe six or seven years now. But I do one thing that I really appreciate, and this is, you know, owes too to Paul Newman so much as well, is that he really does a good job of playing a matured version of the character from The Hustler.
00:20:41:02 - 00:20:45:22
Cullen
Right. Like that. He comes into this movie and you don't feel like it's just the same guy.
00:20:46:06 - 00:20:47:06
Clark
You really got like.
00:20:47:06 - 00:20:50:17
Cullen
That, that 25 years have gone by and that he's a different person.
00:20:50:17 - 00:20:52:01
Clark
Oh, you really have experiences.
00:20:52:01 - 00:21:01:21
Cullen
And so I but there's still he does such a good job also, though, of getting back into that role and making you believe that this is the same character. But 25 years later.
00:21:02:02 - 00:21:02:08
Clark
I mean.
00:21:02:08 - 00:21:11:06
Cullen
Because I think that's a huge thing, especially today, now that we're getting all of these sequels that come out, you know, like the new Star Wars movies or Ghostbusters or, you know, whatever you name it, there's.
00:21:11:06 - 00:21:12:06
Clark
There's everything.
00:21:12:11 - 00:21:32:15
Cullen
Everywhere where it's like, you know, 25 years have gone by since the last one. And I think the issue with a lot of those movies nowadays is that the I don't know if it's a director's thing or if it's the studio that are kind of like, we need people to remember. It's all about nostalgia. And so they try to almost get the actors who are playing these characters 25 years on to play the exact same character.
00:21:32:16 - 00:21:35:07
Cullen
They play the character that they were 25 years ago.
00:21:35:07 - 00:21:39:12
Clark
And between the Botox and the Photoshop, Yes, like they look identical.
00:21:39:12 - 00:22:03:02
Cullen
And so I think that it's really interesting that and perhaps it's it's maybe a kind of a touch of the era that there wasn't really as huge like this. You know, we have such a nostalgia wave now. You know, it wasn't really much as far as I'm aware, when this film came out. So there wasn't this whole like we're recreating the magic of the first movie where, you know, it's Paul Newman back as Edie.
00:22:03:02 - 00:22:26:13
Cullen
It's, it's, you know, it's much more a continuation. And it feels like, again, like you said, it can stand on its own. It's a separate film. It has its own you know, it has its own arc, even though it can be involved in the arc of the larger, you know, duo of the films. Yeah, but it does, you know, watching this movie on its own, I had no issue getting into it, enjoying it, connecting with characters and things like that.
00:22:27:10 - 00:22:34:04
Cullen
And again, that goes without saying that I have seen The Hustler, but it's been so long that, yeah, you know, it's it's definitely not a movie that's fresh on my mind.
00:22:34:04 - 00:22:53:01
Clark
By any means. And that's the way almost everybody would have come into this picture. Yes. With that not being fresh, I think, you know, we get to performances in a little more detail. But since you spoke about Newman and, you know, I think I'll just add this little tidbit while we're here. I mean, you know. NEWMAN Look, he's he's one of your favorite actresses, one of my favorite actors.
00:22:54:02 - 00:23:18:06
Clark
By all accounts, he was an extraordinary human being, period. And I mean, he just does such an outstanding job of of, you know, conveying the life that would have been lead between, you know, the end of the last film and the beginning of this film, The age that's on him. Now, a lot of this, the writing is great and the direction is great, the way he's introduced.
00:23:18:12 - 00:23:19:11
Clark
And I mean, it's.
00:23:19:17 - 00:23:21:17
Cullen
Just a brilliant introduction is such as he.
00:23:21:17 - 00:23:43:03
Clark
Does such a fantastic job of of carrying his age in the weight of so much life. But still he's there's this vitality, this sharpness to him, this edge to him that it's like he almost is like youthful without having to put on any of these pretenses of being youthful in a certain sense. Do you know what I mean?
00:23:43:03 - 00:23:57:12
Cullen
And I think a huge part of that, too, is how how he's almost introduced alongside John Turturro's character, who, by the way, I think is like a criminally underrated actor. Every single time I see John Turturro on something, he's fantastic. He's you know, he was also in to live and die in L.A..
00:23:57:18 - 00:24:07:11
Clark
Except for that. Except for that, Oh, man. The Coen brothers, Big Lebowski. Except for The Big Lebowski. Spin off. I mean, come on.
00:24:07:12 - 00:24:10:08
Cullen
Oh, God, yes. Yeah, that. That the spin off. Jesus. Yeah, yeah.
00:24:10:08 - 00:24:11:10
Clark
Roles or something.
00:24:12:06 - 00:24:42:07
Cullen
But no, but he's but you know, when in the movies that he's, he's good and he's good and I guess is an easier way to put it. But no I think that he is like even in this he's got maybe two or three scenes and he stands out in every single one where he just plays this guy that's just filled with jealousy, but almost, you know, he's played right on the cusp of comic relief where he's not just a joke, but he's also very much something that is like, you know, you're meant to get a few laughs out of his scenes.
00:24:42:14 - 00:25:03:21
Cullen
How he Yeah, you know, he tells Paul Newman as he leaves, he's like, You suck. And you and you almost expect, you know again, going into the movie, you expect if this had the trajectory of a typical sports movie, it would be Newman training cruise and then the end the big finale the showdown would be Turturro versus Cruz and Newman the sidelines, you know.
00:25:03:23 - 00:25:11:16
Cullen
Yeah, but he'd have to coach Cruz through Turturro who was his old kind of it would be like Karate Kid. But no it completely you know.
00:25:12:03 - 00:25:12:05
Clark
He.
00:25:12:05 - 00:25:13:02
Cullen
Just beats Turturro.
00:25:13:07 - 00:25:37:00
Clark
Which were huge films in the eighties. Yeah yeah. You know these kind of you have a lot of these sports films where that's, you know, that would absolutely be what you would expect from the story. Well, yeah, I mean, let's talk about the story a little bit in the directing. I mean, you mentioned that one of the things that stood out to you really predominantly was this kind of that you have almost a two different Scorsese.
00:25:37:01 - 00:25:49:18
Clark
You've got this this kind of subdued or, you know, kind of more traditional kind of standard way that the first half of the film is shot. And then we go, you know, full Scorsese is, I think, really kinetic camera.
00:25:49:19 - 00:25:50:11
Cullen
Really. Yeah.
00:25:50:11 - 00:26:07:09
Clark
And it kind of starts with with Newman's montage where he's getting back into shape. He's getting his prescription glasses, he's swimming, you know, he's practicing, and we get a lot more action. This becomes really kinetic. And, you know, the music is amped up and we've got the quick dollies and the.
00:26:07:11 - 00:26:24:12
Cullen
And that he almost abandons the hustler lifestyle. You know this whole if you really yeah and I think it's it's super because again this is of course after king of comedy which was 1982 which as you said, didn't do super well. King of Comedy is another one that I think is very subdued. Scorsese Very. You know, there's not much Nick is.
00:26:24:20 - 00:26:28:00
Clark
Stylistically is what you're kind of talking about like the kinetic.
00:26:28:09 - 00:26:30:14
Cullen
Yes. Of the camera.
00:26:30:14 - 00:26:32:00
Clark
And yeah, just to be clear.
00:26:32:00 - 00:26:49:21
Cullen
Yeah. And and so it's interesting. Yeah. That this movie is is you get both of those and I think it works super well in context of the story as well like it it works in favor of the way that this movie is laid out. Yeah. And the way that the, you know, that everything kind of comes to be you.
00:26:50:04 - 00:27:24:00
Cullen
I think it's such a brilliant decision because it's like you get this just subdued Scorsese and you know, Eddie is not on his own. And then suddenly as soon as he clicks on it, then you get this, this kinetic Scorsese that that the things that Scorsese he really famous for. And it's like it's like you feel this sudden return to craft not that the first half is by any means poorly directed I actually again as I said love subdued Scorsese but you I think the fact that he chose to do that the fact that he chose to direct the first half much more low energy and just sort of a little bit more objective in
00:27:24:00 - 00:27:36:14
Cullen
terms of how he places the camera and shoots the scenes and that as soon as you get the subjectivity, you feel like you're back in with Eddie, like you almost feel this this revitalization of the energy that's that's washed over him and the audience.
00:27:36:14 - 00:28:10:23
Clark
It's yeah, it's certainly help. I mean, it, it escalates the energy of the film. It brings us to a climax with, you know, this head of Steam. It gives the film a dynamic feeling where it's, you know, you really have this kind of elevation. It assists the story in that way. Absolutely. And it's a good example of, you know, how how the camera can be used to, you know, not just in a utilitarian sense where you know, you're showing what's happening and da da da da da, but that it actually, you know, you can use the style with which you use the camera can actually shift as we go through the acts of a film
00:28:11:06 - 00:28:19:23
Clark
and can actually really lend weight behind the beats of the story that you're trying to convey. You know.
00:28:19:23 - 00:28:45:20
Cullen
Exactly. It's a really it's like a masterclass in using a director's style, I think. Yeah, that rarely is seen in, you know, even even a lot of movies that were contemporary with this that, that where it's like of course every director you think of like go to worship and things like that that a lot of directors have a fingerprint on a movie where you can tell that those are their, you know, their stylistic choices that they use all the time, and that really makes them them.
00:28:47:06 - 00:28:53:18
Cullen
But I think Scorsese, even this one, uses it in a really special way that like elevates a lot of the picture. So I think it's really interesting.
00:28:54:01 - 00:29:12:02
Clark
Yeah, Yeah. And it's beautiful to watch. I mean, there's just, you know, there's so I mean, I think, you know, from the get go, the camera is actually if you if you pay attention to it because some of the stuff is hard to shoot, you've got, you know, people around a table, you've got action on the table, you've got people moving around a table.
00:29:12:10 - 00:29:30:12
Clark
The camera does such a fantastic job of, you know, fluidly, you know, showing people playing pool around a table, showing the action on the table, keeping this, like spatially aligned. It doesn't ever feel weird. You don't ever get spatially confused. It always.
00:29:30:12 - 00:29:33:17
Cullen
Is. You understand the game immediately because they're not actually playing pool.
00:29:33:17 - 00:29:34:10
Clark
They're playing nine.
00:29:34:10 - 00:29:35:13
Cullen
Ball. Nine ball. Yeah.
00:29:35:22 - 00:29:43:03
Clark
And you're right. And so they correct. It's like they do kind of explain nine ball a little bit. And there's some narration of the beginning.
00:29:43:03 - 00:29:44:13
Cullen
That spike scores as he himself.
00:29:44:13 - 00:30:05:08
Clark
By Scorsese himself that does kind of like lay a little bit of groundwork so that as an audience you kind of understand what's happening on the pool table. But exactly. I mean, it's because you're having to deal with not just the spatial orientation and the power relationships between the players playing and the drama there. But you also have to keep this the spatial nature of the game on the table.
00:30:05:14 - 00:30:25:06
Clark
MM Clear. And that's tough. You know, The Hustler didn't show much pool. It's interesting if you watch The Hustler, I mean, very, very, very little pool is shown. There's only a handful of shots. This film shows a lot of pool. And and that I mean, that's got to be really challenging then.
00:30:25:06 - 00:30:27:15
Cullen
Thelma Schoonmaker is editing is is really superb.
00:30:27:15 - 00:30:28:18
Clark
When it all the way and also.
00:30:28:19 - 00:30:30:23
Cullen
Showing those sequences as well like that does.
00:30:31:00 - 00:30:31:17
Clark
Absolutely.
00:30:32:01 - 00:30:50:19
Cullen
And again, you just you have this fluidity, especially in the second half, where that's what I love about Scorsese, that he has this way of making his scenes flow from scene to scene in a in a montage sense, but not in a typical, you know, Rocky four. He's he's training on the farm.
00:30:51:10 - 00:30:52:12
Clark
The training montage.
00:30:52:19 - 00:31:15:02
Cullen
Exactly. You've got this it fits So well within the movie That doesn't it doesn't feel like it's it's a scene. It feels like it's just like you're just evolving with these characters. So it's yeah, I think the direction the editing is, is all really, really superb. And I think honestly, some of course, as he's best and which is a shame that so many people have probably missed this movie or don't really think of it as one of Scorsese's best.
00:31:15:07 - 00:31:20:04
Cullen
Yeah. Because it really, you know, it's a masterclass in all of his work.
00:31:20:18 - 00:31:42:01
Clark
Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's visually just really interesting to see. And you've got some, you know, really classic shots here. Maybe one of the most kind of famous is the the reflection of Newman in the action. Now, I can't remember if it's an eight ball or if it's a I can't remember which ball it but it's and it's probably important to the story.
00:31:42:01 - 00:32:14:05
Clark
But you know we see him as he leans into to begin to play and you have this like really beautiful reflection of him in the in the in the ball. There's just a hint that there's that really beautiful shot where he walks into that and near the end at the tournament and you've got these pool tables laid out and we've got this like organ music and you know, kind of knowing Scorsese and how important religion is and as a theme in a lot of his movies, you know, this like organ music comes on and it's like, you know, this is fast.
00:32:14:05 - 00:32:41:11
Clark
Eddie's church, man. You know, like he's entered church, baby. That just so many really beautiful shots like that. And again, I'm just I'm honestly I've kind of like practically taken notes, you know, just how well the camera moves around the table. And because, you know, sometimes it's a challenge. I mean, you know, it's almost like when you've got people sitting around a table, you know, and it seems like it'd be one of the easiest shots, you know, scenes to shoot.
00:32:41:11 - 00:32:46:04
Clark
But you've got a handful of people around a table and they're having a conversation. It's like, keep it.
00:32:46:04 - 00:32:46:17
Cullen
Interesting.
00:32:46:17 - 00:33:07:21
Clark
To keep it dramatic and to keep it spatially clean. It can be surprisingly challenging. And so now imagine that you've got people around a table, but they're moving around the table, and what they're doing on the table is actually important and you need to show it, you know? So it's I think it's a good, you know, learning experience for for anybody out there.
00:33:07:21 - 00:33:20:10
Clark
You know, take a look at how these are shot. They're great. So it's not just those those really bombastic stylistic shots that are worth checking out. I mean, let's talk about the cinematography a little bit more to Michael Balas.
00:33:20:10 - 00:33:28:12
Cullen
Well, yeah. I mean, I think first off, there's a lot of natural light because rather than shooting on big sets, a lot of the scenes actually took place in real pool halls.
00:33:28:13 - 00:33:34:20
Clark
Yes, these are definitely on location, at least as I understand it. I think. Yeah, pretty much the whole film was shot on location, right?
00:33:35:02 - 00:33:42:12
Cullen
Yeah. And it's Michael Ballhaus, who, of course, is, you know, somebody who Scorsese, he would go on to. This is his second movie together.
00:33:42:12 - 00:33:43:17
Clark
But they did after.
00:33:43:17 - 00:33:46:04
Cullen
I don't want to work on Everything until The Departed.
00:33:46:12 - 00:33:46:19
Clark
Yep.
00:33:48:10 - 00:34:04:17
Cullen
And I think that it's a really, really again much like the direction of at least the first half of the film. Nothing crazy, but very, very beautiful. You know, it's lit very, very well-balanced. Everything has got this really soft again, because you've got.
00:34:05:08 - 00:34:30:02
Clark
I wish I wish I could have been able to tell, Right? Yeah, I wish I could have. I, I'm like so I, it is so hard for me to tell in some instances what was meant and what was not. So just a small digression here. So I have this film on both Blu ray and then and have an iTunes digital copy I watched on iTunes, but it didn't matter because both of the transfers are identical.
00:34:30:11 - 00:34:56:11
Clark
They are horrible. Mm hmm. I this is and I have I mean, I don't need I couldn't even count how many films I've seen on Blu ray and, you know, HD digitally this is I think I can safely say, the worst transfer of a major feature film I have ever seen. I mean, at at many, many places consistently.
00:34:56:11 - 00:35:12:05
Clark
The HD ten ATP transfer of this film looked looked like an early DVD release. Yeah, at best it was it was so, so soft and not not appropriately soft.
00:35:13:10 - 00:35:15:14
Cullen
Like it was. Yeah, this muted, horrible print.
00:35:15:18 - 00:35:33:02
Clark
Yeah, just a horrible bitrate. A lot of data missing banding artifacts, acting grain looked horrible, the colors muted, washed out. Just horrible man. I but you said that you saw this and it looked good.
00:35:33:15 - 00:35:46:09
Cullen
My yeah whatever transfer I saw was actually quite nice. The colors were balanced. It was, it was sharp and that was kind of how I knew that you would likely seen a different one than I had because it was it was your you were saying it was soft and it just.
00:35:46:18 - 00:35:55:07
Clark
Would saved the good stuff for Canadians, man. We just don't get access to that out here. Down here in the US. Man. I'm going to have to start like, you know, importing my films from Canada, dude.
00:35:55:18 - 00:36:19:17
Cullen
But. D Yeah, I was going to say too, that it's one of those movies that you just have a naturally nice, you know, lighting situation where pool tables always have the light above them. So you've got immediately you have contextual lighting, practical lighting in a scene that looks neat, that looks cool. Yeah. If you've ever stood at a pool table in a bar or a pool hall with anybody, you know that everything kind of looks dramatic because you have the top down like a pool table.
00:36:19:22 - 00:36:41:04
Cullen
Then a softly bouncing up from the table itself. Of course, from the the above light that's bouncing off of the fabric. Yeah. So you just naturally have these really nice practicals. And I think that they use that to their advantage a lot where there's nothing super fancy going on other than that, you know, every, every light is just sort of accentuating the natural, you know, what would look natural in a pool hall?
00:36:41:04 - 00:36:54:18
Cullen
There's no crazy you know, it's not super hazed. It's not like you've got big bars of light coming in from the windows and things like that. There's there's it doesn't look really, really ultra stylized.
00:36:55:06 - 00:37:03:05
Clark
Which is which is interesting because, you know, if you call this a sports movie, which, you know, you can make an argument, this is a sports movie. And since it's.
00:37:03:05 - 00:37:05:17
Cullen
Classified, I think I mean, put sports in it.
00:37:05:17 - 00:37:15:12
Clark
Genre couldn't be further from different and in many ways. But but we're talking about the cinematography then Scorsese these other.
00:37:15:19 - 00:37:16:06
Cullen
Yes.
00:37:16:06 - 00:37:18:08
Clark
Sports film Raging Bull. I mean you.
00:37:18:10 - 00:37:18:18
Cullen
Couldn't.
00:37:18:19 - 00:37:42:09
Clark
Yeah which was shot by Michael Chapman. I mean, you couldn't find two films that look more different than these two films from, you know, cinematography perspective. So it's interesting the the like radical differences with which Scorsese, he approached both of these sports films and they're not that far apart. We've got, what, six years apart between the two. So yeah, I just it's just interesting and no it's.
00:37:42:11 - 00:38:06:13
Cullen
It's definitely a it's, it's a weird where's not the right word for it but it's it shows the range I think. And also it's kind of again an interesting little look at that, how a cinematographer might affect the look of film and the director's direction in that Again, yeah, I think I love Michael Ballhaus I love I think that he's done some really, really brilliant work on on all of the scores as he movies that he did shot.
00:38:08:08 - 00:38:31:10
Cullen
But I'd say yeah, this one was is interestingly natural that the lighting is very much it's it's practical in a sense like everything is influenced by the practicals everything is sourced from whatever the practical elements of the scene are, which of course you know, in cinematography most things are, but there's no accentuation on a on a grand scale you're not getting.
00:38:31:20 - 00:38:33:12
Clark
No obvious style. Is milk.
00:38:33:12 - 00:38:36:05
Cullen
Filled. Exactly. Exactly. But I do color weird.
00:38:36:07 - 00:38:52:22
Clark
You know, one of the things that I feel like they did a really great job with is like, you know, one of the things that stands out to me is this this feeling of I get like an East coast fi almost from a lot of it. I get kind of an East Coast vibe. I get a cold vibe, you know, it's like I tungsten.
00:38:53:04 - 00:39:10:01
Clark
Yeah. And I get it's, it's, it's just that stick out that stood out to me. I think it was effective. Yeah. I mean you get just it looks cold. It feels cold. It's it's kind of gritty in that way. It feels quite gritty to me. And you also.
00:39:10:01 - 00:39:24:20
Cullen
You don't really know. I think that that also adds to it, that you don't really know how long the film takes place over because it seems to go through at least like two or three seasons, Like there's a scene in winter fall and I believe there it comes around the ending where it's almost like summer.
00:39:25:01 - 00:39:44:12
Clark
When you don't know and they're in different states, they're traveling. Yeah. So you don't know if you know. Are the seasons changing? Is time passing? Is it that they're going from state to state? Yeah, yeah. The tournaments in Vegas and before they were in Philly or whatever, you know, wherever they were, I don't recall exactly Chicago, whatever, you know.
00:39:44:12 - 00:39:45:10
Cullen
So City.
00:39:45:23 - 00:39:59:21
Clark
Yeah, Atlantic City. So but I do get a sense that it, you know, it kind of helps convey the way it shot, helps convey this like, you know, a sense of kind of disorientation that a person would experience if you live on the road and you're.
00:39:59:21 - 00:40:00:20
Cullen
Going, yeah, if you're suddenly.
00:40:00:20 - 00:40:01:09
Clark
Swept up.
00:40:01:09 - 00:40:01:23
Cullen
In. Yeah.
00:40:02:00 - 00:40:17:18
Clark
Or, you know, kind of this, this kind of gritty and a lot of this is locations that they pick, but this kind of I mean, it's not very glamorous, right? They're playing pool in bars in, you know, like Chicago is, you know, I mean, they do a great job of conveying that they.
00:40:17:18 - 00:40:26:01
Cullen
Stop to to ask directions to one for some guy standing around a you know, a fire pit is like below that, you know, a burning dumpster and a.
00:40:26:08 - 00:40:50:21
Clark
Yeah, yeah. Like a barrel like yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, you know what? A lot of times it's funny too. Now there is inflation, but, you know, they're playing for like 20 bucks, 50 bucks a hand. Now, of course, it does elevate and they start playing for 500 bucks a hand or a thousand bucks a hand. But I mean, you know, it's it's almost a sense it's like there's some humor to this, too, where it's like in their world, this is like the most serious thing.
00:40:51:02 - 00:40:53:00
Cullen
Ever, especially for Newman.
00:40:53:04 - 00:40:59:13
Clark
But to an outsider, it's like, I mean, you're playing a game for, like, 50 bucks.
00:40:59:17 - 00:41:00:18
Cullen
Yeah. You know.
00:41:00:18 - 00:41:05:14
Clark
I mean, a little bit. There's a little bit of that, you know, which which I kind of find as funny, you know?
00:41:05:14 - 00:41:16:19
Cullen
I like that. Newman's like, you know that if you screw this up, then no one's going to play you here, too. Like Atlantic City. You know, you'll your name will go through like beer hall or pool hall. The pool hall and. Yeah, yeah. Another game for the rest of your life.
00:41:17:18 - 00:41:36:15
Clark
Which is it's funny to me. I love films that are about this kind of like these subcultures that, you know, I don't have any exposure to and that seem like interesting and fun, you know. But let's talk a little bit more about the performances, because there really are a handful of outstanding performances. We've talked a little bit about Newman's.
00:41:36:15 - 00:41:41:16
Clark
You know, he was actually won an Academy Award for this film now. Yes, I mean.
00:41:41:16 - 00:41:54:18
Cullen
I and a few other people are nominated. Merrill Mary Elizabeth, Master Antonio. Uh huh. She was nominated. Richard Price, Boris Levin and Catherine O'Hara for Art Direction. They were all nominated for the Oscars.
00:41:54:18 - 00:42:14:01
Clark
So there were a handful of nominations. Yeah, and a couple for performances. And. Newman You know, I think some people felt that Newman's Award was kind of a make up award. No, I think Newman's performance is outstanding in this film. And I don't see I don't recall off the top of my head exactly what performances he was up against in 86.
00:42:14:08 - 00:42:26:07
Clark
But I think that the performance is outstanding. I think it stands as one of his better performances in filmography of Outstanding Performances. So I don't personally have a problem with it, but I do.
00:42:26:07 - 00:42:45:18
Cullen
On the other hand, the other best actors that year weren't. Yeah, I wouldn't say they were bad, but they weren't that they aren't, you know, age old historical. It was Dexter Gordon for Round Midnight, Bob Hoskins and Mona Lisa. William Hurt in Children, a Lesser God, and James Woods in Salvador. So and who nothing like groundbreaking.
00:42:45:18 - 00:43:03:10
Clark
At a time when I mean Tom one Newman one. Yeah and you're right I mean and Salvador think is an outstanding film and a performance Some of the others I can't recall off the top of my head, but you know, but that's what people thought. And I think, you know, there were a handful of films that that Newman maybe should have won for.
00:43:03:10 - 00:43:23:09
Clark
And so maybe it felt a little bit like, you know, he's he's a little bit older. You know, people felt like he might have for, you know, even as far back as 58 with Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, you did have 60 ones. The Hustler 63 is HUD Cool Hand Luke, of course. And 67. I mean, I feel like he should have won for that.
00:43:23:09 - 00:43:40:12
Clark
For example, the sting. So handful of performances. Yeah, The Sting and even some people maybe Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, a little bit less so for that. But you know, he did receive a BAFTA for that. But but yeah, so, you know, a little few people a little bit, you know, thought that that was a make up.
00:43:40:12 - 00:44:00:21
Clark
But I mean, his performance is outstanding. We've talked a little bit about how he you know, I mean, he's such a I mean, he's probably one of the more handsome human beings who have ever existed. And it's really would be easy for him to have traded on that exclusively. And it's he he really allowed himself to age, like you've discussed.
00:44:01:06 - 00:44:25:19
Clark
And, you know, he played a lot of roles where he was this old, cantankerous, cranky person. Nobody's fool is a great example. That's even when he was considerably older in 94, when I considerably less than a decade older. But he allowed himself to age, and I really enjoy that about his performance. Tom Cruise is fantastic. I mean, like Cruise is custom made for this.
00:44:25:19 - 00:44:42:17
Clark
Like, I feel like, you know, the cocky nature with which with which cruise plays. I mean, I can just imagine I don't know if this is true, but Cruise does such a good job that I could just see it as like Cruise. Is this like special charmed life, you know, And he's he's like, great at what he does.
00:44:42:17 - 00:45:01:06
Clark
And he's never not been great at what he does. And, you know, it just shows the effortlessness with which he plays pool. And I mean, the the werewolf, a London scene is just so outstanding. And you know how he uses his cues, Dick is I mean, it's just great, dude. I love it.
00:45:01:06 - 00:45:13:03
Cullen
And he's and he's somewhat similar to, like even just his his cockiness, really. It's interesting that he did this the same year Top Gun because there's definitely that aspect of the character in Top Gun like when you got maverick who's just cocky pilots so.
00:45:13:12 - 00:45:31:09
Clark
And he's made it what he does. I mean that's Tom Cruise's thing, right? It's like he's great at what he does. He's super confident, you know, And that's a big chunk of what he does is that and let's face it, he's great. But here I mean, as we did hint at a little earlier, he allows himself to be goofy, though he he allows himself to be over the top.
00:45:31:16 - 00:45:48:18
Clark
I mean, you know, he's still cool, but he's also you can see the kind of ridiculousness, you can see the cheese factor. You can see, you know, when Newman is like, man, you know, you are a character in these. I didn't say you. I didn't say you had character, but I said, you are a character. Yes, we see that.
00:45:48:18 - 00:46:13:04
Clark
And Cruise allows himself to be in that position, which I think is great. And Mary Elizabeth and I'm like, Boy Mastery Antonio. She I think, is such a bitch. She's like, clearly, you know, not clearly, but she seemed to me to be maybe a few years older. Clearly, she's more seasoned. Clearly, she's she's able to see a few moves ahead further than Cruise's character.
00:46:13:12 - 00:46:36:00
Clark
And she does a fantastic job in that role. And she's kind of in between. I mean, it's not a love triangle at all, but she's kind of in between Fast Eddie and Tom Cruise, and she does a really fantastic job of making this an interesting trifecta, an interesting triangle where Newman is having to kind of play her and cruise.
00:46:36:07 - 00:46:50:08
Clark
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I love the way that that she kind of uses her sexuality to kind of play with both of those characters. It's really quite great. And Forest Whitaker, dude.
00:46:50:16 - 00:47:05:04
Cullen
Oh, Whitaker is he's got one scene and he's always so good. Oh, it's so really I think it's a wonderful scene, too, because that's, I'd say, also one of Newman's best scenes in the movie. If not.
00:47:05:05 - 00:47:19:10
Clark
It's so I mean, it is outstanding. And so yeah, if you want to see an extraordinary scene with two actors just in some butt, check out Newman and Forest Whitaker. In this scene, it's like, what, in the letter ladder? Like.
00:47:19:18 - 00:47:24:18
Cullen
That's about like, I guess I would say that yeah the turning act into Yeah. Three or so Yeah.
00:47:24:20 - 00:47:51:18
Clark
But you know Forest Whitaker just does such an out he is just, he's so unique in this film and he's it's amazing how he's able to play. There's a softness, there's like this real softness to him and like a vulnerability in a strange way. But there's, but, but underneath there is this like, extremely intelligent, cutthroat hustler. But it's, but there's like, mixed in with this kind of, like, vulnerability and softness.
00:47:51:18 - 00:48:13:20
Clark
It's just really quite beautiful and such a contrast to Newman and just it's really wonderful. But yeah, I mean, the performances are strong and music. We haven't talked about that too much. I didn't, you know, really recall the music too much except for like the Clapton song, which, you know, was kind of a minor hit, I think, back then.
00:48:14:03 - 00:48:25:05
Clark
But Robbie Robertson from the band does the score here, and it's like this really interesting, nontraditional kind of score. It's How did you find it? I felt like.
00:48:25:05 - 00:48:29:21
Cullen
I liked it. Yeah, I do like. Robert Robbie Robertson And but it's not really similar to his.
00:48:29:21 - 00:48:31:17
Clark
No, it's not like the band at all.
00:48:31:21 - 00:48:33:08
Cullen
Know another Toronto guy, but how.
00:48:33:08 - 00:48:43:22
Clark
Would you even describe it? Like, how would you. I'm trying to think of like what words I would use to describe the music, the score. I mean, can you think of a way to do it? I mean.
00:48:45:08 - 00:48:57:05
Cullen
I get yeah, it's I can't really think of a genre. It's not like folksy isn't really it? It's sort of like a, like a soft even rock wouldn't really do. Yeah, it's not.
00:48:57:05 - 00:49:04:13
Clark
It's rock. It's not like eighties pop. It's. So I'm trying to think of, like, a musician. Like a musician or a music.
00:49:04:13 - 00:49:06:10
Cullen
Yeah, there's. There's like, some piano.
00:49:06:10 - 00:49:34:22
Clark
And it's a bit eccentric, isn't there? Yeah. And the vocalist, the vocalizations are kind of. I mean, it's not lyrics, but there are vocalizations. It's kind of like. But I felt like it was really effective. It kind of added to it, kind of added a layer of kind of, you know, the unexpected or kind of interesting. And of course, you've got it mixed in and made, you know, Scorsese, a notorious for using rock music in his in his soundtracks.
00:49:34:22 - 00:49:52:15
Clark
And I think it's actually aged fairly well You've got I think, a couple Robert Palmer tracks, older tracks, which I think are really good. You know, he's kind of he was the like might as well face it you're addicted to love, but he's kind of like a blue eyed soul guy. But I think these are older songs than that which I feel like still hold up.
00:49:52:15 - 00:50:13:05
Clark
I mean, I'm not a huge Eric Clapton fan, but I actually think his hit song from this holds up actually pretty well. Warren Zevon. I mean, of course, Werewolves of London is just outstanding. And of course, you know, of course, as he does a lot kinetically with these songs whenever whenever he uses them. Yes. Yeah. Which is kind of his trademark there.
00:50:13:13 - 00:50:17:11
Clark
There are no Rolling Stones songs, though, which is like surprising or.
00:50:18:00 - 00:50:19:19
Cullen
No Doo wop and no rolling show.
00:50:20:03 - 00:50:28:05
Clark
I know, right? It's like how many films of Scorsese can you watch? They don't have either like doo wop or Rolling Stones. There aren't many.
00:50:28:05 - 00:50:40:08
Cullen
No, but I do like the soundtrack. I think it I think it fits really well. Never. Yeah, never imposes on anything. It just kind of is there. Yeah. Yeah. And I like Robbie Robertson. I think he's he's good so.
00:50:40:12 - 00:50:43:11
Clark
And but it is totally different from the band. I thought it was like yeah.
00:50:43:11 - 00:50:47:19
Cullen
I don't go into this expecting, you know, the band to be the score for this.
00:50:47:19 - 00:51:05:16
Clark
Yeah yeah. But I was really intrigued by it. And then, and then we have the, the ending which, you know, you and I talked about this briefly. I, I was surprised, you know, when I was kind of reading a little bit up on the film and kind of reorienting myself to to kind of the context of the film and everything.
00:51:05:16 - 00:51:39:03
Clark
Before we recorded this, I saw that quite a few people were confused, or at least it seemed that quite a few people were kind of confused with the ending or, you know, they kind of didn't like it. They felt like it was kind of patched together or kind of missing. Something actually was one of the biggest complaints that I read about the film was that people felt like there was It was almost as if the ending was missing a scene, you know, like they didn't quite I mean, I I'm trying to remember I feel like when I saw the film originally, when I was younger, I probably didn't get all of the nuance of the
00:51:39:03 - 00:51:54:16
Clark
relationship of Newman and Cruz and, you know, and what they were doing. But I probably didn't care either, you know? But I don't recall, you know, watching it now. It seemed to make quite a bit of sense to me. And it's in you said that you didn't have any issues with.
00:51:54:16 - 00:51:59:06
Cullen
No, no. Yeah, I didn't even I didn't I hadn't actually realized that people did have issues until you brought it up.
00:51:59:07 - 00:52:18:08
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. But to me, I mean, I feel like you've got this. And to me, this is an extremely interesting story, and I'm kind of fascinated with stories about mentors and mentees and, you know, because this is a really interesting relationship that occurs, you know, for all of us throughout our lives, where sometimes mentors were sometimes teachers and were sometimes students and mentees.
00:52:18:08 - 00:52:41:01
Clark
And this is an interesting, complex relationship. And the roles can change at interesting times, and it's why it makes great for films. And I think it's interesting here, too, that I think it's a really beautiful arc and you've kind of got Tom Cruise and Paul Newman basically changing places by the end of the film. Yeah, and that seemed pretty clear to me.
00:52:42:09 - 00:52:43:05
Clark
So yeah, that's.
00:52:43:05 - 00:52:48:22
Cullen
What's interesting is that it again, it's, it, it makes to me complete structural sense.
00:52:49:04 - 00:52:49:12
Clark
Yeah.
00:52:50:04 - 00:52:52:00
Cullen
It doesn't seem to come out of nowhere or.
00:52:52:01 - 00:53:12:06
Clark
Yeah, I think to be even more specific, you know, the part that I that kept tripping people up is as far as like what I was reading was that, you know, we were at the end of the film, it's after the tournament and we're in the green room, I think it is. And Newman's kind of setting up and and Cruz comes busting in and he's like, You used me, you used me.
00:53:12:14 - 00:53:28:17
Clark
And people were like, I don't get it. What do you mean? He used them? And so that's where I think And I don't know if maybe it's like a little bit of Cruz's performance where maybe it was just kind of over the top, a little more than you know, and that kind of threw people off. But but I feel like it made sense to me.
00:53:28:17 - 00:53:30:23
Clark
I mean, I think that, you know, I mean.
00:53:30:23 - 00:53:37:01
Cullen
Yeah, because if you think about it, they've hardly spoken. He or since he left them in that pool hall.
00:53:37:04 - 00:53:38:00
Clark
Right. He abandoned.
00:53:38:00 - 00:53:45:20
Cullen
Humiliated by. So they've they've only spoken a few like maybe three words to each other, even just briefly meeting each other in the hallway.
00:53:46:00 - 00:53:46:07
Clark
Yep.
00:53:46:12 - 00:53:55:09
Cullen
And then. And then. Yeah. And then it's like, of course, Cruz would feel used because it's like, oh, you know, you. You walked out on us.
00:53:55:09 - 00:54:12:23
Clark
Yeah. And now you said that you were going to you were going to be my mentor, you were going to teach me. And of course, what ends up really kind of happened, I mean, he did he is like Newman definitely teaches him how to hustle. And of course, by the end of the film, you see that that Cruz is actually completely switched.
00:54:12:23 - 00:54:34:00
Clark
I mean, Cruz is now the ruthless, effective hustler. He no longer plays the game for the game itself. He no longer plays it to be the best pool player. He's playing pool in order to hustle money from other people. So his orientation to the game has completely changed. And depending on your perspective on things, you could you could say that he was corrupted.
00:54:34:00 - 00:54:49:17
Clark
That would be one way to potentially look at it. It's kind of how I see it personally. And now Newman has gone from being the the hustler and the person who only cared about money to only caring about playing, being the best pool player he can be. Yeah.
00:54:50:09 - 00:54:50:17
Cullen
Yeah.
00:54:50:21 - 00:55:09:08
Clark
But, but I think Cruz kind of sees that, you know, what ended up happening was that Newman he feels like Newman used him to get back into the game. So it's like, Oh, you didn't actually you weren't trying to do anything for me at all, ever. You were just trying to get back into the game.
00:55:09:17 - 00:55:09:22
Cullen
Yeah.
00:55:10:15 - 00:55:26:17
Clark
So that's how I interpret it. Now, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I kind of felt about it. But I just thought it was interesting that there is because, you know, sometimes in these films where there's kind of role reversals, kind of con stories, hustler stories, that stuff can kind of get plots, can get confused.
00:55:26:17 - 00:55:30:01
Clark
But I felt like this was like very straightforward and very effective.
00:55:30:01 - 00:55:32:03
Cullen
So no, definitely, yeah.
00:55:32:03 - 00:55:36:15
Clark
All right. And, well, I think unless you've got anything else that you'd like to bring up about the film.
00:55:36:15 - 00:55:37:20
Cullen
No, I think we've covered plenty.
00:55:37:22 - 00:55:46:15
Clark
We've touched on, you know, like I mean, obviously you could talk about a film forever, but, you know, that'd be crazy if we had, you know, our our memory cards only have so many hours, so.
00:55:47:01 - 00:55:47:18
Cullen
Mm hmm. Yeah.
00:55:48:00 - 00:56:03:17
Clark
Yeah, but. But. But it was a pleasure, man. This is one of my favorites from way back when I was a kid. I'm glad that you enjoyed it, too. It's always fun. It's always fun when I get to pick a film that you haven't seen yet. That's a joy to me. So, yeah, I. I'm happy that you enjoyed it.
00:56:03:17 - 00:56:15:20
Clark
I enjoyed our conversation. I hope everybody out there, I hope you enjoyed it as well. If you if you haven't seen this film, go see it to be crazy. It'd weird if you'd listen to this whole thing and you hadn't seen the film. Maybe you did that, I don't know.
00:56:16:03 - 00:56:21:20
Cullen
And I just made the whole thing for you. We spoke or you're watching it while we talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. Commentary track.
00:56:21:20 - 00:56:40:23
Clark
We should do, like, a commentary track sometime. We will have to think of something fun for our 50th episode. We're going to hold us to that. We're going to have to do that. We'll think of something fun. But in the meantime, everybody have a wonderful couple of weeks. We look forward to coming back together and recording another episode for you soon.
00:56:41:04 - 00:56:43:14
Clark
And until then, everybody, take care.
00:56:43:22 - 00:56:52:01
Cullen
Bye bye.