Cullen
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I'm joined today, as always, by Clark Coffey.
00:00:16:20 - 00:00:18:01
Clark
Hello. Hello, lovely.
00:00:18:01 - 00:00:18:18
Cullen
Co-Host.
00:00:19:09 - 00:00:20:13
Clark
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
00:00:20:20 - 00:00:30:09
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. Today we're doing Denis Villeneuve's enemy from 2013. I'm, of course, episode 47. So we were nearly at 50, which is crazy.
00:00:30:09 - 00:00:43:19
Clark
It's kind of crazy. It's amazing. And I'm excited for this conversation. This is. Yeah, Your Choice and a fellow Canadian filmmaker from Toronto, or at least if he's I don't know if he's from Toronto. Oh, yeah.
00:00:43:19 - 00:00:44:09
Cullen
He's from.
00:00:44:14 - 00:00:53:05
Clark
Montreal. He's from Quebec. But this is this of course, this film takes place and very prominently highlights Toronto. Yeah. So that's.
00:00:53:05 - 00:01:11:05
Cullen
Just right. Well, he's actually from Trois-Rivieres, but that's a small town, so. Yeah, Montreal but and Quebec. But yeah, so he yeah, this is a one of the few movies again that we kind of, we discussed this about when we were doing The Fly where I said that there's a lot of movies that are shot in Toronto, but very few actually take place in Toronto.
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Cullen
Yeah, usually it's like subbing out for New York or Chicago or some generic kind of American city.
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Clark
Yep. And this is this is very clearly Toronto. And I have to say it makes Toronto, which is a beautiful city. And I've been there personally and it's a beautiful city. Boy, this film makes Toronto look horrible.
00:01:30:09 - 00:01:47:15
Cullen
Yeah, lots of it's like I always laugh at that how And I said this before, but we I was watching this set of friends and we were in like a condo and there's like a nice view of the lake. And you can see you can actually see the building that we were in in the movie. But there's, you know, you can see the city and it's it's a really beautiful view.
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Cullen
Yeah. And it was so funny watching the movie and kind of like turning my head to the right, looking out the window and seeing what the city actually looks like versus what the movie makes. It's smoggy.
00:01:57:01 - 00:02:00:11
Clark
Is yellows aggressive? Yeah. Yeah.
00:02:00:18 - 00:02:03:23
Cullen
And with giant spiders in the sky, of course, if.
00:02:03:23 - 00:02:05:19
Clark
It's giant spiders in the sky. Yeah.
00:02:05:19 - 00:02:23:18
Cullen
But yeah, it's, it's interesting. Um, I would say that this is a very Canadian movie and, and we're going to get into kind of more with there's later it's intriguing to me very it's got a lot of like Canadian identity in it in terms of the way that and perhaps for better or for worse in some ways sometimes it's a pro sometimes it's a con.
00:02:23:18 - 00:02:31:21
Cullen
But yeah, yeah, I mean, I, I guess we can kind of get into kind of our, our first impressions in context or.
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Clark
Even or even maybe if you want to just do just a, just a hair before we do that, you know, it's kind of you and I, you know, so just so everybody out there listening kind of knows and you probably suspect, you know, we pop on for a brief period of time before we record. And, you know, we kind of very, very high level kind of discuss the film.
00:02:49:22 - 00:03:05:07
Clark
And, you know, we kind of break out a few notes of things that we want to talk to, but we don't pre can this or preplan this. It's all improvised, recorded live and we don't even edit it. You know, it's like we present this thing as one big old slab of an hour long conversation and that's that.
00:03:05:07 - 00:03:07:07
Cullen
So raw conversation, no.
00:03:07:07 - 00:03:27:10
Clark
Tricks up our sleeves of any kind. But but we were talking about and I think it's interesting, you know, this film was made in, what, 2013, so not not too long ago, but I think in eight years, you know, we've seen some interesting things kind of happen or the progression of things that have been happening for a while in the film industry have been happening.
00:03:27:10 - 00:04:04:14
Clark
And of course, especially COVID has had a big impact on cinema and the theatrical experience with film. But, you know, you brought up a good question during that conversation, which was like, you know, is this a good example of a film that would have a difficult time being made and theatrically released today? You know, and we were kind of talking about how this is likely a film that, you know, maybe would have would end up on Netflix now or Amazon Prime and, you know, maybe would end up, you know, just as sort of one of like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of films kind of, you know, buried amongst all the quote unquote, content.
00:04:04:14 - 00:04:18:00
Clark
But but, I mean, you know, that's a good question. You know, And what are your thoughts on that? I mean, this film is definitely it's an esoteric it's a it's a film that has it's definitely not a marvel movie.
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Cullen
It's not a blockbuster by any means. You know, I think that it's I sort of described it as like a relic of a time past, in a sense, in that like it feels very seventies in a way, seventies, kind of eighties or even, you know, I know that this is this is nineties. But, you know, I always sort of think of like eyes wide shut when I think of this movie in that it's like a big but again this is not an old movie This is 2013.
00:04:47:03 - 00:04:58:10
Cullen
Yeah. But the amount that the film industry has changed in the past 510 years is I think, you know, basically a ton. I mean it's, it's yeah, it's, it's, it's astronomical.
00:04:58:10 - 00:05:02:16
Clark
Especially, you know and COVID has hastened that, you know, the past.
00:05:03:05 - 00:05:22:13
Cullen
Has it's kind of it's been the straw that broke the camel's back but in many senses. But but that this you know, this movie reminds me again I said to Eyes Wide Shut, but it also kind of tonally reminds me almost of like the conversation, like it's this surreal kind of paranoia, thriller, drama. And, you know, movies like that aren't really made like that anymore.
00:05:22:13 - 00:05:29:02
Cullen
Like and let alone shown in theaters with budgets of, you know what? I'm not quite sure of me trying to pull up the number here real quick.
00:05:29:11 - 00:05:36:05
Clark
I think we're looking at it. Is it? Yeah, it's I don't see any numbers available right off the top, but, you know, I mean, yeah, I'd.
00:05:36:05 - 00:05:38:04
Cullen
Say it made for a few million dollars probably.
00:05:38:04 - 00:05:56:16
Clark
Probably not much. But you know, Jake Gyllenhaal, you know, he did a couple of films with Disney back to back, I think. And so I'm not quite sure, you know, if they did kind of a multi pick deal or kind of, you know, how much he got paid for this, you know, and but yeah, I you know, it's interesting.
00:05:56:16 - 00:06:23:09
Clark
I and we're going to get into this, you know, kind of you know, what are what our experiences were with the film. And I'm going to I'll kind of cheat a little bit and share that. You know, I didn't really enjoy this film much, but and we'll get into this. But I really respect the film and I'm appreciative of the film and I'm appreciative that Danny is working in the industry that he is, that he's a filmmaker that's making films.
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Clark
And I appreciate this, that this film exists. And I would love to see more films like this being released theatrically, you know, mature films made for adult viewing audience, you know, exploring interesting and complex adult issues.
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Cullen
That.
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Clark
And making strong artistic choices, which, I mean, look, you can say all kinds of things about this film, but the one thing that's undeniable is that there are strong choices being made in this film. And I and even if I am not thrilled by those choices, I'm always thrilled by the fact that somebody actually made strong choices.
00:07:08:14 - 00:07:16:08
Cullen
I, I think it's interesting is our reaction to this movie is very much kind of two sides of the same coin.
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Clark
Yeah.
00:07:17:01 - 00:07:33:20
Cullen
Whereas you you don't necessarily enjoy it a lot. I agree with all of the things that make you not enjoy it. But, you know, I disagree on a stylistic level with this movie a ton. It's not a movie that I think I would ever like. I would never shoot a movie in this style. And I don't just mean subject matter or a story.
00:07:33:20 - 00:07:51:10
Cullen
I think that that's a really engaging and intriguing part of the movie, and I love those types of movies. But yeah, purely from a stylistic sense, purely from a visual, you know, the way the camera moves, the cinematography, the movie. I would never shoot anything like this. No filter. Yes. Yeah. And it's yeah, it's super yellow and stuff like that.
00:07:51:10 - 00:07:57:00
Cullen
And I very wholeheartedly disagree with that on a like artistic, personal. Yeah.
00:07:57:07 - 00:07:57:12
Clark
Yeah.
00:07:57:12 - 00:08:15:12
Cullen
But I find it really fascinating too. I find that it's almost I can't look away from and it's not a movie that, you know, I don't think that Villeneuve was trying to make or Nicholas Bolduc, who did the cinematography, were trying to make this movie look pretty. It's very obvious that they were trying to make. Yes. You know.
00:08:15:12 - 00:08:37:04
Cullen
QUESTION And and it works. And it was not a pretty, pretty movie. But but and I but I think it's so fascinating because of that that it's like to me it's like you're looking at this image and it's so yellow or that the landscape shots are like the big establishing shots of the city are so smoggy and gross and they make you feel almost like you're in like a bayou, like it's like sweaty.
00:08:37:04 - 00:08:41:06
Cullen
And, you know, just it's it's not appealing in any way.
00:08:41:06 - 00:09:00:02
Clark
Like, I mean, in Los Angeles in the seventies what it makes the guy. Yeah, but okay, so we're going to talk about that because I think this is really interesting. This is you know, now, look, I think this is a compliment to the film, the fact that we're here, that we're talking about it, and that there's like there's the complexity of of of this issue to even discuss, I think is worth while.
00:09:00:02 - 00:09:27:07
Clark
I mean, this is huge points, you know, in favor of the film. You know, absolutely. This idea that something can be esthetically unpleasing that can be unattractive, that can be, you know, even unsettled. And clearly, I mean, there's a lot of films that discuss unsettling things that as subject matter, as content, as plot device, you know, that is disturbing, unsettling, you know, fearful.
00:09:27:07 - 00:09:41:11
Clark
I mean, all of these negative emotions are commonly explored in film. But I think this film, like, uses the very medium like use, you know, like is visually disturbing. And, you know, I don't know, you know, I mean, they were not of for I.
00:09:41:11 - 00:09:42:06
Cullen
Think should be.
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Clark
Esthetically pleasing, you know.
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Cullen
Yeah. I chuckled there for a minute because I'm just I'm just sort of imagining having this conversation in a in a in a forum of like, you know, a big pop culture podcast where it's almost it's what's bizarre about those things is that it's almost impossible to criticize a movie. It's like you either love everything about it or you hate everything about it.
00:10:02:18 - 00:10:20:15
Cullen
Yeah. So I find it like, you know, I find it so refreshing to be able to have a conversation about a movie that I actually really, really like, but that I can also say like, Oh, man, it's ugly. Like, you know, it's it's funny to me that, that things like that are kind of so especially in like very mainstream senses and like, very popular media.
00:10:20:19 - 00:10:25:18
Cullen
It's it's rare to find conversations like that. So I'm glad that, you know, we're able to discuss it.
00:10:25:19 - 00:10:41:10
Clark
And that's, you know, it's the most fun thing. Like, that's what I love doing here. So let's let's, let's do talk about then let's shift to. So tell me a little bit about your personal experience with the film. I just and I want to remind people because I think it's kind of interesting that there's like a decent age difference between the two of us.
00:10:41:10 - 00:11:02:20
Clark
So, yeah, you know, the age at which I first saw this film, which I'll get to after you, is like quite a bit different than the age that you saw this film out. Not that I'm suggesting for a moment that age is some monolithic kind of, you know, decider. But it is interesting to kind of explore the different age period of your life that you kind of come in contact with.
00:11:02:20 - 00:11:05:16
Clark
Art can definitely, like have an impact, you know? Totally.
00:11:05:21 - 00:11:10:08
Cullen
Yeah. I mean, because what we're I think we're about 23 years apart. Yeah, we're about 20.
00:11:10:08 - 00:11:12:17
Clark
Yes. Yeah, I'm 45. So. Yeah.
00:11:12:20 - 00:11:40:01
Cullen
So 22. Yeah, yeah. So so yeah, definitely different like mean like different childhood experiences and things like that. Totally different worlds that we grew up in. Yeah. But I think what's kind of interesting about that is, is again, just that like the sense that I get from this is that it's a going to move from a bygone era, whereas the sense that you might get from it is because you probably grew up more so in a sense where movies like this were way more common.
00:11:40:01 - 00:12:01:12
Cullen
And I even, you know, even my childhood was was filled with films that were, you know, the early 2000s and the film industry today are completely different beasts. They're totally different things. Yeah. But I yeah, I can't help but shake the sense that, that this movie either would not be picked up at all today by a like a big distribution company and would never see the light of day theatrically.
00:12:02:04 - 00:12:23:04
Cullen
Or it would be something so relegated to, you know, a special screening for like a few days. And then that would be kind of, you know, what it's shown as. But, but yeah, I think that the other thing about it is the subject matter, which you know, of course is a lot about adultery and, you know, affairs and this whole idea of like split personality and banality of life.
00:12:23:04 - 00:12:44:12
Cullen
Like I think a big the monotony of of of his everyday life in this movie I think is a huge theme. Yeah. And you, of course have, you know experienced things like that. You said that you've worked office jobs, that you felt like you were hitting your head against a brick wall every day. Whereas I haven't. I was I was lucky enough to.
00:12:44:12 - 00:12:52:09
Cullen
Yeah. Kind of land into doing a lot of film gigs, you know, early on out of out of high school. So I yeah, thank God I never had to deal with that.
00:12:52:09 - 00:13:12:16
Clark
Yeah, well, you know, and even hey, look, it's, it's, there's no, you know, it's not a magical escape from the realities of life to work in film either. You will also suffer some of the, you know, the, the cyclical nature of some things in life. The patterns of life can sometimes be oppressive regardless of industry that you're in.
00:13:13:00 - 00:13:17:18
Clark
Yeah, but how old were you when you saw the film and did you see it when it was released? Like.
00:13:18:03 - 00:13:26:17
Cullen
Yeah, I didn't see it and I didn't see it in theaters. Okay, So it came in 2013 actually. Let me see what the exact time of year it came out, because I can tell you.
00:13:26:17 - 00:13:28:01
Clark
Pretty much, I think September ish.
00:13:28:01 - 00:13:44:00
Cullen
So September 8th. Yeah. So it premiered at TIFF. Yeah. And then that would have been when I was in grade ten. Yeah. So it came out when I was in grade ten, I think I saw it the first time when I was in Grade 11. And again, it was funny I that this is my first Villeneuve movie.
00:13:44:06 - 00:13:45:00
Clark
Yeah.
00:13:45:00 - 00:14:12:09
Cullen
And I only watched it because the like it's both. It takes place in Toronto and the neighboring city, Mississauga, which is where I live. Yeah. And that to me is really interesting as a Toronto so rarely mentioned in cinema, but also like even less so of course Mississauga, which is basically just a suburb, but yeah, you know, and there's things like, oh, he drives by like Rathburn Road and Rathburn Road is the place where there's like a big IMAX theater.
00:14:12:09 - 00:14:13:11
Cullen
So it's like he's ah, recognizing.
00:14:13:12 - 00:14:14:05
Clark
Yeah, sure.
00:14:14:05 - 00:14:25:10
Cullen
Fun living in L.A. you've, you've got a lot of that. And so that's really why I watched it, because my friend was like, yeah, one of the places that he goes is like, there's those I don't know if you remember in the movie there was those weird kind of shaped towers.
00:14:25:12 - 00:14:26:17
Clark
Yeah, they're beautiful. Yeah.
00:14:26:17 - 00:14:44:18
Cullen
Yeah. So those are called the Marilyn Monroe buildings here. Oh, wow. Like, designed to kind of look like Marilyn Monroe in there. Those are kind of like the centerpiece of, like, the Mississauga skyline. And so it's so funny seeing those because, like, you can pretty much, you know, like, I'm I'm so close and still he's my friend being like, yeah, the Marilyn Monroe buildings are in them and stuff.
00:14:45:05 - 00:14:46:07
Cullen
And I'm like, that's so we're.
00:14:46:13 - 00:14:49:06
Clark
Just, just sorry to, to like, you know, for, know.
00:14:49:10 - 00:14:49:13
Cullen
Where.
00:14:49:20 - 00:14:53:06
Clark
Are they. What are that, Is that actually what they're called or.
00:14:53:06 - 00:14:55:22
Cullen
No. So they're, I think they're called absolute World Towers.
00:14:55:22 - 00:14:56:14
Clark
Oh okay.
00:14:56:22 - 00:14:57:02
Cullen
Yeah.
00:14:57:02 - 00:15:00:05
Clark
But if you but everybody just calls them Marilyn Monroe, that's.
00:15:00:11 - 00:15:20:19
Cullen
Really because they're designed to look kind of like her figure. I see. But yeah, so those so that was literally like I had no real knowledge of Villeneuve at the point. At that point I heard of him because he made a pretty big movie here called Polytechnique, which was about a school shooting that happened to, you know, a few quite a while ago.
00:15:20:19 - 00:15:40:19
Cullen
I can't remember the exact year of it. Yeah, and that was a big thing in Canada. So he kind of made his name up here with that movie and Incendies, which was was kind of big here as well. Yeah. But I'd never seen either of those. And so this was really my first Villeneuve movie. And yeah, again, I didn't know anything about it going into it.
00:15:40:19 - 00:16:08:18
Cullen
I like the only reason I was watching it was because I thought it would be cool to kind of point out locations that I knew. Sure. And again, even back then, I was like, so mesmerized by this movie and so enthralled by how grounded it feels and that the visual effects are always like, you know, there's there's there's not a lot of visual effects in this, but the visual effects that are in there are so ingrained in the world that this movie presents that they're never presented as shocking or out of the ordinary.
00:16:09:14 - 00:16:19:18
Cullen
You know, I could see this movie being directed in a completely different way where the image of the giant spider walking over Toronto was done in a way that makes it shocking to the viewer in the.
00:16:19:18 - 00:16:21:20
Clark
Sensationalized, dramatic.
00:16:21:20 - 00:16:43:12
Cullen
Round looking up at it or something like that. But it literally just cuts to an establishing shot of Toronto with a giant spider. Yeah, you know, there you go, fanfare about it. So I think that that was really what kind of encapsulated me And it also like I almost forgive me for kind of a simplifying perhaps the direction of only of here, but it almost to me also sort of feels like it Villeneuve doing like Fincher in a way.
00:16:43:23 - 00:16:45:18
Cullen
Oh, it feels a lot.
00:16:46:06 - 00:16:47:03
Clark
That's interesting. Sort of.
00:16:47:03 - 00:16:47:13
Cullen
Like.
00:16:47:17 - 00:16:48:17
Clark
That's interesting. Like The.
00:16:48:17 - 00:16:50:06
Cullen
Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and, you.
00:16:50:06 - 00:16:50:19
Clark
Know, I.
00:16:50:19 - 00:16:51:13
Cullen
Tonal sense.
00:16:51:13 - 00:17:06:05
Clark
I feel like in some senses these two directors are actually very similar because they also get often a kind of cold kind of clinical kind of detached, technical feeling from Fincher in a lot of his movies. Yeah. And I get that feeling with Disney, too.
00:17:07:10 - 00:17:14:22
Cullen
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Especially, I mean, Dune just came out. Yeah. And I think that's like I thought Dune was decent. I enjoyed it. I saw it. Yeah.
00:17:14:22 - 00:17:15:14
Clark
I thought it was.
00:17:15:14 - 00:17:17:02
Cullen
Like, especially in IMAX. It was.
00:17:17:02 - 00:17:18:07
Clark
It was I wasn't washed away.
00:17:19:09 - 00:17:23:12
Cullen
But a lot of people's complaints about that movie is exactly this kind of sterility that there's not a lot of.
00:17:23:14 - 00:17:28:16
Clark
We're going to get to that, too. You've got a really interesting take, you know, and I've never really thought about it. I want to see it now. I want to save it.
00:17:28:16 - 00:17:30:03
Cullen
But this. Yes. Yeah, we'll get to that.
00:17:30:03 - 00:17:50:21
Clark
As you called it. Yeah. The Canadian curse you called it. And obviously you don't have to be Canadian for for a filmmaker to kind of maybe be considered category. But we're going to get to that, that I was really intrigued by this idea. So. Okay, so you see it at a grade ten. That's a sophomore in high school here, and you were captivated by it right off the bat.
00:17:51:16 - 00:17:54:05
Cullen
Yeah. And I thought that, you know, and it was one of those things.
00:17:54:12 - 00:18:00:16
Clark
Do you feel like do you remember, like what it made you think about, What it made you feel was it just.
00:18:00:17 - 00:18:09:14
Cullen
I think it was just a lot. I mean, I've always been super into, as I mentioned, like this like seventies parent, like, I'd like the conversation has always been one of my favorite movies. Yeah.
00:18:09:22 - 00:18:10:17
Clark
I love that film.
00:18:10:17 - 00:18:32:04
Cullen
Yeah. All the President's Men blow up. And then again, as I already have mentioned, as well as like Eyes Wide Shut, I find that to be sort of fascinating, Intriguing movie. I like. I again it's what, what I, I, what bothers me so much is that I find it so difficult to describe necessarily what I like about this movie in detail other than the fact that I just it puts me like it's almost like a trance.
00:18:32:04 - 00:18:32:19
Cullen
Like, it's like this.
00:18:32:19 - 00:18:33:01
Clark
Is.
00:18:33:02 - 00:18:49:21
Cullen
Such it's so far out from mesmerizing ever do that it that it makes me think a lot about the just the way that the story is told that there's not really like a rising action there's not you doesn't put any emphasis on on pressure or suspense or things like that but it's and yet there's not such a.
00:18:49:21 - 00:19:24:20
Clark
Dynamic movie range. Yeah. So I'm curious like, you know, of it like okay, so we talk a lot in the, you know, in this podcast as kind of filmmakers ourself and cinephiles ourselves and, you know, I mean, oftentimes we'll get very technical, we get pretty granular, but I don't want to miss either like kind of, you know, we're just like audience is to you know, we're just like, we're just human beings and we we watch films and we're moved or not moved or, you know, and I'm just kind of curious if you could elaborate any bit, little bit more, just as like and just as an audience member, like watching the story be told in
00:19:24:20 - 00:19:32:17
Clark
front of you with moving pictures, do you recall kind of, you know, what you know, any other ways that I might super like?
00:19:32:17 - 00:19:52:17
Cullen
I think that the thing was that I was I was strangely invested in. That's one of the things that I think we were also kind of want to discuss is that there's like a very big disconnect with feeling what the characters are feeling. This movie that you don't really you don't you're not really like, attached or like rooting for Gyllenhaal to kind of like, figure this out.
00:19:52:17 - 00:19:53:01
Cullen
Your mom or.
00:19:53:01 - 00:19:53:11
Clark
Any of the.
00:19:53:11 - 00:20:10:00
Cullen
Care along the ride with them. Exactly. You don't really get to know many of the characters very well. Right. But I think at the same time, I think what kind of like hooked me about it was just that I was still so like, it's like peeling off a Band-Aid. Like, it's like you're I'm still just waiting to see what's under there.
00:20:10:00 - 00:20:17:02
Cullen
And like, what what is making the movie tick? And it's okay. It's a really kind of odd sensation, a curiosity.
00:20:17:02 - 00:20:18:07
Clark
It's like. It's like almost.
00:20:18:12 - 00:20:18:18
Cullen
Like a.
00:20:18:23 - 00:20:19:19
Clark
Curiosity.
00:20:19:19 - 00:20:23:01
Cullen
Maybe you're curious. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's my curiosity.
00:20:23:01 - 00:20:49:06
Clark
I respect that, man. That's very interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. And especially at that age, you're kind of younger. I mean, obviously, like the subject matter and themes of this film are intense. And so I was just curious kind of as a younger person, you know, how that film might have made you feel. And I remember, too, you know, when I was and this is kind of sad in a way, it really we're just digressing all over the place on this podcast.
00:20:49:06 - 00:20:59:15
Clark
But, you know, I feel like I was it was much easier for me to be significantly emotionally affected by film when I was younger. Now, of course, it.
00:21:00:04 - 00:21:00:08
Cullen
Makes.
00:21:00:08 - 00:21:39:10
Clark
Sense and it absolutely still happens to me today. Of course. I mean, you know, I didn't turn into a robot, but there is a difference between a pre-teen and teenage mind and then the mind of a 45 year old person. We we evolve. We go through more life and and I but I think there's like this sweet spot, you know, of almost like kind of 12 to maybe 20 or something where, you know, your hormones are kind of go in and your life seems like everything is kind of new and an experience and, and you really like I think we're we're open to much more range of emotional experience at that age.
00:21:39:10 - 00:21:54:05
Cullen
And who knows if I would have like had the same like if I had watched this movie for the first time now. Yeah. What I would never know reacted similarly or would I have, you know, had sort of a more of an approach that you had where it's like kind of the stuff that I like is more set in stone in a way.
00:21:54:14 - 00:21:57:01
Cullen
Yeah, in that. And so I wonder.
00:21:57:05 - 00:21:59:08
Clark
Yeah, it's just interesting to say because like you.
00:21:59:08 - 00:22:01:13
Cullen
Did you see this in theaters or do you remember.
00:22:01:19 - 00:22:27:05
Clark
So yeah, so, so for me, I didn't watch it in the theater. I do remember, you know, seeing like preview footage of it and being and certainly like, you know, the esthetic caught my eye. I mean, you know, there's no like, this doesn't look like any other film I've seen, you know, And I think some of the promo footage showed like the spider landscape of Toronto and, you know, everything is yellow and and it's it's quite striking.
00:22:27:05 - 00:22:40:23
Clark
And I was like, woo, okay, I don't know anything about this, but it's different. And of course, that caught my attention. I'm like, this is different. This is not Marvel. This is not, you know, I'm like, which which wasn't as dominating and to 23.
00:22:40:23 - 00:22:43:13
Cullen
Yeah, because of The Avengers. The first Avengers movie had just come.
00:22:43:13 - 00:22:44:18
Clark
Out the year before.
00:22:44:18 - 00:22:44:22
Cullen
This.
00:22:44:22 - 00:23:23:23
Clark
So but I was like, Oh, okay, this looks interesting. Now. I did not go see it at the theater, though. I ended up not seeing it the theater. But I think once it was finally released at home, I did watch it at home. And I you know, I don't remember being, you know, particularly emotionally moved. I, I, I was kind of I don't know, I think the distance at which the film kind of kept me with them with it's kind of like the you know, that it's so symbolic and such like it's I feel like it's just a big metaphor, which is okay, you know, But, but I think it kind of kept me from
00:23:24:20 - 00:23:46:12
Clark
from empathizing with the characters and kind of putting myself in any of those characters positions in the film, which I think is one of the big ways that I enter a story is that I, you know, I would many of us do, of course, you know, where I kind of pick a character that I and that can change throughout the whole movie, you know, And maybe in this scene, I feel related to that character.
00:23:46:12 - 00:24:04:13
Clark
And then the next scene, I feel related to this character and go back and forth and everything. But I felt like it was there was no entrance into this film for me in that way where I could put myself in the shoes of any of these characters and kind of feel with them. So, so that was a challenge that kept me at a distance.
00:24:04:13 - 00:24:24:23
Clark
The other thing that kept me at a distance, and it's definitely on purpose, is the esthetic of the film, which we'll get into a little more when we talk about direction and cinematography. So I think the combination of the esthetic of the film and this, the kind of removed the distance that the characters are kept from us, I think kept me from really feeling connected to this picture.
00:24:26:05 - 00:24:39:13
Cullen
And I think you described, interestingly, um, sort of like that there's like almost hinges of not like an amateurish sense, but the storytelling style is sort of feels almost like, like student film.
00:24:39:13 - 00:24:41:02
Clark
Well, and that's so.
00:24:41:02 - 00:24:54:13
Cullen
I, and I think that what's interesting about that is that, you know, I know exactly what you mean in that like student films and I know I'm guilty of this in movies that I made when I was younger as well, where you almost try to keep things like intriguingly vague.
00:24:54:17 - 00:24:55:03
Clark
Yes.
00:24:55:11 - 00:24:57:23
Cullen
And that's the kind of that's how you're and I actually.
00:24:57:23 - 00:24:58:23
Clark
And it's like you're never.
00:24:58:23 - 00:25:21:13
Cullen
Sation with someone the other day because they were they were they're writing a screenplay that they want me to direct. But they they're, you know, just kind of starting out. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of like their, like film career and stuff like that. And so that was one of the pointers that I gave them was I was like, If you really want to set this aside from like a lot of other short films that will go up on YouTube or Vimeo and stuff, it's like, take all the vagueness out of it.
00:25:21:16 - 00:25:42:19
Cullen
Yes. Make it something that's super clear and concise and efficient in the way that you tell the story. Whereas and it doesn't necessarily bother me a ton with this just because I think that the atmosphere of the movie is really intriguing. Interesting. Mm hmm. But no, I totally get you. You mean like I. Yeah, I made movies when I was younger or where, you know, it's like.
00:25:42:19 - 00:25:47:06
Cullen
Oh, like, yeah. Every way that character can communicate is everything is brooding.
00:25:47:06 - 00:26:04:11
Clark
Yeah, Everything is is glacial. And, and so. So then, yeah. So fast forward now, you know, because I watch this probably in 2014 or 2015 when it first came out. So fast forward six years and I watched it of course, again last night in preparation for this. And, you know, I felt I felt all those same things again.
00:26:05:06 - 00:26:22:01
Clark
But yes, as you mentioned, you know, and and not to be rude to student filmmakers and because I have been there myself and it's a shorthand, I think, to me an amateur or you know, filmmakers who are kind of just people, that's all. I mean, so.
00:26:22:06 - 00:26:23:15
Cullen
It's a negative context. Yeah.
00:26:23:15 - 00:26:46:11
Clark
So, yes, I don't mean any disrespect to anyone at all. It's just a shorthand for and I've been there too. So where I think vagueness replaces decisions, that's what I think we're kind of talking about for that. But I don't feel like that's what's taking place here. I don't feel like no vagueness is replacing the decisions that need to be made as an artist for a film.
00:26:47:03 - 00:27:20:04
Clark
But I think what I mean here about the kind of a student student student film feel for me here is is is more superficial, is more just about I think kind of the the one note ness of the film, the the glacial pace of the film. The the brooding over the images. Those are kind of the elements that I think superficially remind me of a lot of amateur work that I've seen.
00:27:20:18 - 00:27:39:18
Clark
But the big difference, though, is that I really do feel like this is this is strong conscious decisions by this film maker as opposed to, you know, the lack of a strong decision being made. And that's why there's vagueness for an amateur filmmaker. So I do think it's fundamentally different, but I think in some ways they look the same, if that makes sense.
00:27:39:18 - 00:27:40:06
Clark
Totally.
00:27:40:08 - 00:27:58:06
Cullen
No, that makes absolute sense. Yeah, I think that that's yeah, there's like, hints of it. Um, but it's almost odd that it's done in a not odd in a, in a negative sense, but it's that, it's that the way that I would describe it is that there's, there's an intentional self-awareness to it.
00:27:58:08 - 00:27:58:17
Clark
Yeah.
00:27:59:02 - 00:28:07:01
Cullen
Yeah. As opposed to a student film just trying to mask the lack of a story with vagueness and stuff like that, which again, we've all been there.
00:28:07:06 - 00:28:28:05
Clark
We've all been there, we've all been there. And I and I get it, you know, because I know one of the first things that, you know, a lot of like I just working with a writer recently and I had kind of the same feedback as the story you described. You know, they were I could tell in reading the script that they were hyper concerned about giving away too much about being too literal, about being on the nose.
00:28:28:05 - 00:28:50:03
Clark
And that fear was so great that that so many things were lost and not communicated to the audience in the script because of that fear. And so the reaction to that fear was, was a such an overcompensation that I was like, I don't even know what the heck is going on here, dude. You know, like, nobody that watches this film, if it's made from the script as it is now, is even going to know what in the world you're talking about.
00:28:50:03 - 00:29:08:18
Clark
So, no, exactly. You know, so sometimes I think, you know, having a confidence in the story that you're telling is important and that comes with age and experience, you know, or this experience, you know, and this clearly is a confident film. Like I would never say, wow, this is not a confident film. It's definitely a confidently made film.
00:29:08:18 - 00:29:20:17
Clark
I mean, yeah. And let's talk a little bit more about that direction then. I mean, you know this. So what did we say? This sits kind of in the middle of of Danny's filmography. He kind.
00:29:20:17 - 00:29:27:06
Cullen
Of, yeah, this is kind of I guess the the, I would say the middle of his filmography, but almost like the right on the start of his big.
00:29:27:06 - 00:29:29:11
Clark
Big international. Yeah, yeah. Like where.
00:29:29:16 - 00:29:33:18
Cullen
He did prisoners the same years this which is totally different movie feels completely different.
00:29:33:18 - 00:29:36:15
Clark
And I think that's his first American film, right I think.
00:29:36:15 - 00:29:40:04
Cullen
Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. Film. Deakins Like did the cinematography for it.
00:29:40:04 - 00:29:48:14
Clark
And so yeah, so that was big. And then I think Enemy is a smaller film. I don't think that was a huge thing for him. But then it Ha yo was, was released.
00:29:48:20 - 00:29:49:00
Cullen
Yeah.
00:29:49:01 - 00:30:05:18
Clark
I mean that was, that was a that's a, that's a very much more traditional film. It was huge. I think Arrival had a, had a really it was really well-received. Obviously Blade Runner was gigantic and I mean that if you didn't know who he was before Blade Runner 2049, then you knew who he was.
00:30:05:20 - 00:30:13:14
Cullen
He's become he's become the point where, you know, I think as most directors aspire to be, where it's like his name is a part of the advertising.
00:30:13:14 - 00:30:14:02
Clark
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:14:04 - 00:30:19:17
Cullen
You know, but that when Dune came out, it's Denis Villeneuve's Dune. It's just dune. Exactly. This guy.
00:30:19:20 - 00:30:30:17
Clark
It's a big deal. So. So clearly he's one of the biggest I think he's one of the biggest directors working today, especially with his dune. I think it's going to be at least a trilogy, I think. Right, Or several films.
00:30:30:17 - 00:30:35:18
Cullen
Yeah, I think it's I think they've announced the second one and then they're probably will make a third one based on how the second one does.
00:30:35:18 - 00:31:16:01
Clark
But yeah, be interesting to see. But I think, you know, clearly there's like strong, there's really strong decision making being made here by this director. I think, you know, going moving from the themes that the film is, is is kind of exploring. And you touched on that a little bit. We'll talk about it. But, you know, the surreality of the surreal nature of the film, the confidence to tell a symbolic, metaphorical story, but without drawing really any it like you said, you know, even the special effects shots, the spider stuff is shown so matter of factly it's shown such with I mean, I love frankly, I think, frankly, the best part of the film to
00:31:16:01 - 00:31:36:13
Clark
me is that final scene where, yeah, he's speaking to his pregnant wife. She leaves the shower, she stops responding, and he so he goes into the bedroom and she's turned into a giant spider who's now afraid of him, kind of cowers in the corner. And we we cut back to a reaction shot of Jake's character, and he's just like.
00:31:37:06 - 00:31:38:03
Cullen
He sighs.
00:31:38:03 - 00:31:39:04
Clark
And just sighs.
00:31:39:04 - 00:31:41:09
Cullen
And it's like it's this realization that like, okay, this.
00:31:41:09 - 00:31:57:18
Clark
Is the resigned getting it's beginning again. And and so I so respect that. That's such confident filmmaking to me that he did not have to overemphasize or sensationalize any of these choices. I mean that I have a high degree of respect for that.
00:31:58:04 - 00:32:14:03
Cullen
Yeah, definitely. It's it's it's it's, it's refreshing in the sense also that, again, it like it doesn't overexplain itself. That's another doesn't It doesn't Yeah. Very much in line with like I'm sure a lot of people saw that last scene were like wait why is he scared of the fact there's a giant spider.
00:32:14:04 - 00:32:17:12
Clark
Or even just that? How did she turn into a spider? What's going on? Yeah.
00:32:17:21 - 00:32:35:21
Cullen
And there's this there's this quote that I think we I think I said it when we were talking that Silence of the Lambs, which is. Phil knew or not. Philip Sorry. Jonathan Demme Yeah. Said when directing Silence of the Lambs that he would rather an audience be confused for 5 minutes than be told what's going on every.
00:32:35:21 - 00:32:37:03
Clark
Second, every idea.
00:32:37:03 - 00:32:56:18
Cullen
So that there's this, I think Villeneuve really, really, you know, whether or not he's directly, you know, inspired by that or not which I think it's just a natural kind of gift that some directors have that they don't feel the need to overexplain. They don't feel the need to have, you know, Jake Gyllenhaal visit a psychiatrist in this movie.
00:32:56:18 - 00:33:19:15
Cullen
And it's like I just be like, oh, this is your condition that does this. And, you know, and it's like, he doesn't like read a book on what spiders mean in psychology at one point or like so this is very much is using these as bits of metaphor and symbolism and stuff like that. And yeah, sure, it's definitely a movie that is I again, I sort of described it as like up its own ass with its symbolism.
00:33:19:19 - 00:33:21:05
Clark
Well, that's what I want to talk about.
00:33:21:05 - 00:33:45:04
Cullen
But I don't I don't necessarily that doesn't take away from the film for me for some. Normally it would There's a lot of movies that that I think that it would definitely get a little bit eye rolling for me. Yeah but for some reason and again this is where it comes up where I'm like, I don't I can't describe beyond just sort of like the feeling that I get during the movie, that I forgive this movie for it that I actually kind of enjoy.
00:33:45:08 - 00:34:08:15
Clark
I mean, I think it yeah, the film is clearly successful at imparting a tone. I mean, there is there's there is in an atmosphere. So there's no question there that, you know, I think this film very successfully conveys an atmosphere and a tone that exists as a successful container for the symbology, if that makes sense. So so that so that you can hold it and it and it and it's not ridiculous to you.
00:34:09:16 - 00:34:32:13
Clark
You know I think it's true what you said that he doesn't he doesn't explicitly he doesn't have characters, you know, explaining how they're feeling in dialog. He doesn't explicitly explain that, you know. No, there aren't there aren't two of these main characters that this is a you know, this this is symbolic. This is a representation of his psyche, you know, etc., etc..
00:34:32:13 - 00:34:41:16
Clark
Right. He doesn't go in to explain those things. But I but I do get a little bit of a sense that it's it's still sometimes heavy handed to me.
00:34:42:11 - 00:34:44:21
Cullen
You know, without a doubt. Yeah. Yeah. I mean.
00:34:44:21 - 00:35:07:01
Clark
I mean, you know, yes. He doesn't explicitly explain things, but I mean he is very, you know, it's like with, you know, the history lessons, you know, it's like over and over kind of about, you know, you know, the obsession with control and yeah, you know, and we see the cycles and we I mean, I feel like some of it is a little.
00:35:07:01 - 00:35:08:21
Cullen
Hate knows it knows what its themes.
00:35:08:21 - 00:35:13:13
Clark
Are. It well, definitely knows, you know and it's and it focuses on them for sure.
00:35:13:13 - 00:35:13:18
Cullen
Yeah.
00:35:14:05 - 00:35:25:05
Clark
I mean there's a very conscious decision to every I mean I feel like every scene of this film is about its themes. So that's true. Yeah. I mean, that's.
00:35:25:06 - 00:35:25:15
Cullen
You know, without a.
00:35:25:15 - 00:35:51:06
Clark
Doubt. And obviously the imparting these themes or exploring these themes, it was, I think, the highest priority for this film. So I think I think that's fair to say. It's, you know, that, that everything else is subservient to and supports that exploration of these themes which, you know, can be interpreted to be different things by people. You know, in my mind, you know, when I saw it.
00:35:51:08 - 00:36:04:06
Clark
Well, I be curious before I say that, like, what do you feel like where some of the main like when watched it I'm curious, especially when you were ten I mean not ten, but when you were in 10th grade. Like what? What themes kind of jumped out to you? Do you remember? I mean.
00:36:04:06 - 00:36:04:16
Cullen
Just this.
00:36:04:16 - 00:36:06:10
Clark
Idea of like going about or.
00:36:06:20 - 00:36:34:16
Cullen
Yeah, I think my my ideas were and again, this is not completely exact because I'm not they don't remember exactly. Yes, I remember. That's just definitely the feelings of like control, monotony, sameness in life and not but it's not. I think what interested me then too, is that there's so many movies about monotony and sameness and where someone like like Fight Club, for example, or it's like, Oh, I want to break out of this monotony, but that's not what this is.
00:36:34:16 - 00:37:13:08
Cullen
It's more about like the monotony driving somebody insane and and getting to the point of like where it, you know, it's, it's kind of like a split personality thing. And you've got this but that, that there's this like, there's also this weird deniability in it that it's it's one of those things where you along with other characters in the film, you don't know if he's genuinely ill, if he genuinely has this split personality or if it's something that's like because because at the end of it, especially in the final moments of the film, when he sees the spider, you get the sense by his facial expression that he's like, No, no, no, I invent this
00:37:13:08 - 00:37:24:00
Cullen
other person in my head, and I know, but I'm never going to tell anybody that I meant them, that it's like that. It's like I can't because that's what keeps me sane. And then when he sees the spider, he's like, All right, well, back to square one kind of thing.
00:37:24:02 - 00:37:33:18
Clark
Interest and interest is, do you feel like this is kind of like the themes that you feel that jump out to you today as well or what you're reading?
00:37:33:19 - 00:37:45:01
Cullen
Yeah, No. Yeah, a lot of similar stuff. Yeah, definitely more. I mean, I think I understand the dynamics of like the actual relationships more because yeah, I've had more experience in that kind of avenue of life where.
00:37:45:01 - 00:37:45:09
Clark
Yeah.
00:37:45:13 - 00:37:54:21
Cullen
You know, if like having conversation, like difficult conversations about, you know, paranoia in relationships, like jealousy, things like that.
00:37:54:21 - 00:37:55:07
Clark
Yeah.
00:37:56:00 - 00:38:15:10
Cullen
And so I think on that level I understand those things more than obviously I did when I was in grade ten. Sure. But to the level of, you know, a broad, I would say like thematic kind of reaction to the movie, I'd say that I had have had pretty similar reactions every single time I've watched it. I've only seen it.
00:38:15:10 - 00:38:33:06
Cullen
Yeah, I think for four or five I would lean towards four. I think I've seen it four times over the course of, you know, nearly ten years. Yeah. So I haven't it's not a movie that like I sit down and watch every year and that I like I'm a huge fan of. It's not necessarily one that's like in my, you know, favorite movies of all time.
00:38:33:23 - 00:38:55:22
Cullen
But again, like you said, I find this movie really intriguing. I think it's a really, you know, like a I my response coming out of this movie is something that's like, I appreciate this movie a lot and I appreciate the the direction and just for its uniqueness, if nothing else, that it's just it's really refreshing to see something like this.
00:38:55:22 - 00:39:16:21
Cullen
And again, that's kind of why I described it as like something that you would it would just be relegated to like Amazon Prime that it wouldn't, you know, have a big release. It wouldn't be in theaters. It would just be movies like this, you know, just aren't really made anymore. And it's or at least aren't given the same spotlight that even it would have been done.
00:39:17:01 - 00:39:17:10
Clark
Yeah.
00:39:17:10 - 00:39:18:03
Cullen
When it came out.
00:39:18:10 - 00:39:38:11
Clark
Well, I think, you know, some of the themes that jump out at me and this is one area that I enjoy I kind of both enjoy, but then I'm kind of about this, you know, I think, you know, one of the themes that stands out to me are, you know, the the film seems to kind of center around infidelity or relationships.
00:39:38:21 - 00:40:00:20
Clark
And I certainly, you know, I sometimes get so burned out on infidelity being such a like a crutch for a story for films that it just like I mean, I know that it you know, it's an important or significant part of what a lot of people in life have to deal with in real life. And it's sometimes.
00:40:00:22 - 00:40:01:15
Cullen
Dramatic.
00:40:01:17 - 00:40:26:18
Clark
But it's so easily dramatized. And I feel like sometimes it's handled in such the same way over and over and over that it's a trope, basically. It's like the male infidelity thing is a trope in film that sometimes is just kind of annoying and boring. So I will say that, you know, because my kind of interpretation is that I think that infidelity is key.
00:40:26:18 - 00:40:45:03
Clark
And I think, you know, that the way the film is book, you know, begins and opens with this erotic scene or this, you know, where they're at, this sex club. I mean, they're literally at the sex club. I think that it's kind of a symbolic like symbolic of kind of this lustful thinking that's going on in the character's mind.
00:40:45:03 - 00:41:00:01
Clark
I don't think he's I don't think it's necessarily literal. But, you know, there are two women. One is his wife, one is a girlfriend. And, you know, one is always kind of bathed in white. One is always presented in dark. So they're kind of this yin yang.
00:41:00:18 - 00:41:03:18
Cullen
And they but they look sort of similar, sort of.
00:41:03:18 - 00:41:33:07
Clark
But we can easily tell them apart. One is softer, one is kind of more, you know, angular. They're both. But of course, they're both beautiful. And, you know, I think this film is about that cycle of infidelity for him. And maybe that's even too literal. Maybe it's about a cycle of, you know, or the struggle of, you know, of managing love and lust and that there's temptation in the world, you know, troll.
00:41:33:07 - 00:41:34:05
Cullen
Again, as we've talked about.
00:41:34:05 - 00:41:34:14
Clark
Like and.
00:41:34:17 - 00:41:35:17
Cullen
This idea of and.
00:41:35:21 - 00:41:42:04
Clark
Right and and so at least I'm like, well thank God at least that they explored this in a different way. But I mean, you know.
00:41:42:04 - 00:41:50:01
Cullen
She was that like every female character in the movie is is like in a way you know, in a very literal sense, like kind of domineering that like, well.
00:41:50:01 - 00:41:52:16
Clark
It's all over. The symbology of it is everywhere. Yeah.
00:41:52:16 - 00:41:56:00
Cullen
It's like is their mother his mother kind of talks to him like he's.
00:41:56:00 - 00:41:56:14
Clark
All the time.
00:41:56:14 - 00:42:07:07
Cullen
Like, the answer is, is both of his you know, both the girls that he's seeing are very much not necessarily in control of him, but you can tell where. Well, knowing that he has.
00:42:07:09 - 00:42:14:22
Clark
It's the spider. It's the spider analogy. It's that it's the web. It's the fear of control. And it's the fear of commitment.
00:42:14:22 - 00:42:16:06
Cullen
And getting caught up in feeling.
00:42:16:06 - 00:42:40:05
Clark
Of getting caught up in something. And so and that's what happens when you have a real, genuine, authentic relationship with someone that's deep. You do get caught up with each other. You get entangled with someone tremendously on every level when you're actually in a real adult relationship. And that's scary for a lot of people. And for a lot of people, they have a really difficult time, I think, managing that.
00:42:40:13 - 00:43:08:12
Clark
So I get that. That's interesting to explore that fear that that exist when you make yourself vulnerable and you commit yourself to someone. That's very interesting. But, you know, this is where some of the stuff like the spider analogy, I mean, it seems sometimes a little heavy handed that, yes, women are spiders and that they catch their web and men get stuck in it and that, you know, that you have a picture of the poster of the 50 foot woman in the video shop.
00:43:08:12 - 00:43:25:04
Clark
And then we cut to that what we don't directly cut to. But then later we see the the giant spider in the landscape of Toronto. You know, we see the spider web fracture of the windshield. You know, when there's the car accident.
00:43:25:15 - 00:43:31:18
Cullen
Even though at the beginning the like know the beginning of the cycle of him in the sex club and she steps on the tarantula.
00:43:31:18 - 00:43:43:04
Clark
And well, there's that, too. But there's a spider web, actually, the glass shatters in a spider web and like pattern when you have the car accident, when they're fighting and they have the car accident.
00:43:43:04 - 00:43:46:09
Cullen
So it's like cyclical, though. Like it's very clear that this is something.
00:43:46:09 - 00:43:46:19
Clark
That it's a.
00:43:46:19 - 00:43:50:20
Cullen
Size you know, even his wife literally asks him at one point, are you seeing her.
00:43:50:20 - 00:44:09:19
Clark
Again? Everything is yet every so in his history lessons. And, you know so yes, we get a sense of the cycle that that it's you know, and of course, the ending of it is that, you know, okay, he's finally killed off this alter ego or this or this temptation or however you want to kind of describe it or interpret it.
00:44:10:01 - 00:44:26:01
Clark
And, well, what's like literally the next thing that happens it's like the next morning, he's like, Oh, I've got this key. Oh, you know, Hey, wife, are you busy tonight? I've got to go somewhere. Well, yeah. So temptation wins again. And that's of course.
00:44:26:05 - 00:44:41:05
Cullen
I mean again. And then, like, it's not, it's not. It doesn't hide like, you know, even his mother says, you know, I can give up on that, that, that amateur acting career that you're trying it. So it's like, you know, it doesn't hide the fact that these two people are one and the same.
00:44:41:05 - 00:44:43:09
Clark
No, there's a lot of it. It's I think it's it's.
00:44:43:09 - 00:44:57:04
Cullen
Very much him very much grappling with two sides of his. Look, I don't I don't think it's a literal. No, you know, the movie's not supposed to literally mean that this guy has a split personality to do so where he, like, makes memories in a in a mental health sense.
00:44:57:07 - 00:44:58:17
Clark
No, it's rather the reality is.
00:44:58:17 - 00:45:04:14
Cullen
This all here and it's in it's surreal. Like it's it's a it's a surrealist movie. So it's using.
00:45:05:06 - 00:45:12:02
Clark
Well, interesting metaphor. I mean, it's it's not surrealist mostly aside from the spider stuff. It's not visually surreal. So.
00:45:12:02 - 00:45:14:06
Cullen
No, no, but very much the way that the story's told.
00:45:14:06 - 00:45:33:18
Clark
Yeah. But I think that's I think that's where if, if someone gets a little confused, I think that's likely why I think it's because Yeah you have you have this is a visual like this this the story is a representation of someone's psyche, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it's, and it's about the duality that exist in all of us or, you know, more than two.
00:45:33:18 - 00:45:52:03
Clark
I mean, there are many facets of all of our personalities, and we there's a lot of cognitive dissonance We want to try. We want to do one thing, but we are tempted to do another thing. And sometimes we succeed in doing what we what we feel like our higher, better self would do. And sometimes we fail when we do, you know, a more base thing.
00:45:52:03 - 00:46:07:01
Clark
If that. I mean, we get complicated into like ethics and everything, you know? So it's hard sometimes to even create a hierarchy of actions. But my point is just that all of us experience cognitive dissonance and we're pulled in different directions. I mean, do you try.
00:46:07:03 - 00:46:29:00
Cullen
To relate it to I mean, I again, go back to kind of the even like the the student film type of idea is that when I was, you know, I made a movie probably five years ago Now that isn't very good, but I remember that the whole point of it was that like this guy wakes up in the sun is like, doesn't rise and the world is empty.
00:46:29:00 - 00:46:48:05
Cullen
And it was like a metaphor for him losing his girlfriend. And there's this like piece of paper on his desk that he like community like that just it appeared like the words just appear on the paper and like, tell him things. And, you know, and it was very much such a heavy handed metaphor. And then, like, when he forgives himself, the sun rises again and it's, you know, not very good.
00:46:48:17 - 00:47:06:06
Cullen
But, but again, very much that student film thing and, and it's kind of like it gets exactly like that, like in that movie. Is the sun literally not rising or is it sort of vague? Is it is it more just again, it's a more of a metaphor. It's like the those elements are supposed to be more surreal to represent something.
00:47:06:15 - 00:47:08:13
Clark
And I'm happy to see that and I'm happy to see that.
00:47:08:13 - 00:47:22:01
Cullen
So that's that's the thing is that this movie does that far better than I did. Yeah, but it's still it's the same principle. It's the principle of like that you're taking something. This movie is not about someone literally struggling with the mental health issue. That is no personality disorder.
00:47:22:02 - 00:47:26:21
Clark
And I don't think it to be hard pressed to see that somebody would even interpret it that way. I Yeah.
00:47:26:21 - 00:47:27:18
Cullen
Yeah, exactly.
00:47:27:18 - 00:47:54:13
Clark
I don't take it. But I do think though that this film so I think what this film does is completely I mean it's common in an art to do this. This is, you know I mean there's this movie does nothing spectacular or weird or, you know, unique even in its representation of things in that manner. But I do think that it is becoming more unique in the landscape of current films.
00:47:54:13 - 00:48:22:14
Clark
That is, it's rare that films are kind of metaphors and are symbolic and represent kind of, you know, these subconscious kind of things that go on. And I think films are often quite literal, generally, and they're very plot totally and they're very much about, well, just what happens ABCD BFG like what tangibly happens in the world, whether it's ridiculously fictional characters like Captain America and Spider-Man and Hulk.
00:48:22:14 - 00:48:39:00
Clark
I mean, it's still these films are just about like what is literally happening in their world. So I like to see that. So though I didn't enjoy watching this film, sometimes I thought that symbology was a little heavy handed. I'm still really excited to see it. So yeah, and perhaps.
00:48:39:00 - 00:48:44:08
Cullen
To kind of finish off, we can discuss that idea of like this, this kind of Canadian curse thing that I.
00:48:44:09 - 00:49:06:16
Clark
Well, yeah, because I want to talk about performances. I mean, I think like, you know, we were talking about performances a little bit and we were kind of, you know, I was kind of, you know, in my mind, like when I was interpreting it before, you had kind of described this Canadian thing, I was like, well, you know, the film, you know, because I was thinking, you know, trying to think of how could I define or what would I say about these these performances?
00:49:06:16 - 00:49:24:05
Clark
And I kind of felt like, well, you know, there's not a whole lot for these actors to do. I mean, the film feels a little kind of flat, a little detached. I was trying to find some words to describe it. You know, I felt like the that the the characters don't feel like kind of like fully human, you know.
00:49:24:22 - 00:49:36:00
Clark
So it's like it's hard for me to really say, wow, any of these performances stood out to me. But you'd mention something that might explain some of this, and that is this cultural.
00:49:36:07 - 00:50:08:08
Cullen
There's this. Yeah, there's so there's this strange and again, perhaps this is something that I'm more attuned to just because, you know, growing up here and seeing more than, you know, cinema from this country. But there's this lack of show softness or lack of being in your face or kind of lack of grandeur in a lot of cases that that's super subdued and super, you know, that like it feels very flat and very sterile and very you know, and this goes back to even, you know, I'm a huge fan of David Cronenberg.
00:50:08:19 - 00:50:15:02
Cullen
Yeah. But like, you watch it like Videodrome and it's like there's still this this like there's this transactional relationship.
00:50:15:02 - 00:50:16:04
Clark
That every like every.
00:50:16:04 - 00:50:42:00
Cullen
Relationship is almost like, yeah, it's like you're having every conversation feels transactional. Yeah. And so there's this lack of empathizing with characters often where you don't really feel like, well, I know this person's like wants and desires or I know what they're needing in this situation. I even the stories themselves are so often, you know, quite different from things that like it's not really coming of age.
00:50:42:00 - 00:51:03:13
Cullen
Like it's not or it's not something about like someone kind of trying to achieve a goal, but more so an exploration of like, you know, and I'll use Cronenberg again, we all use Videodrome where it's like, Videodrome is not a story about a man that's like trying succeed in like, you know, in a like a news networking and things like that.
00:51:03:15 - 00:51:06:00
Cullen
A story about a guy that's like dealing with obsession.
00:51:06:00 - 00:51:27:00
Clark
And yeah, it's not aspirational, it's not an aspirational story, which we get a lot of, you know, and it's not a goal driven story, which you also get a lot of. Right. It's like and if you read almost any screenwriting book that was written in the past 20 years, it's like your character must be likable and they must have a goal that they must work to achieve and they must so much.
00:51:27:00 - 00:52:11:21
Cullen
Of it's so much of Canadian cinema. It's like I'd say the majority of it. And I say curse, not necessarily in a totally negative sense, like there is there's a lot of really, really fantastic movies made here, like, you know, that are that are fully made here, not just Hollywood movies shooting here. Yeah, but at the same time, there's also like this really interesting kind of feel to a lot of like Canadian cinema, which is just this like flat sort of less emotional, less, you know, empathetic more, much more, I would say exploratory, than anything else that that there's so often exploring controversial issues or, you know, taboo subjects, things like that that are, I
00:52:11:21 - 00:52:21:06
Cullen
think, make things really interesting. But also one of those things that is to me, a super, super, you know, almost like a hallmark of Canadian cinema That's so interesting.
00:52:21:06 - 00:52:42:02
Clark
I hadn't really thought of that too much. I'd be curious, you know, and not that we can answer this question here or, you know, but it would be interesting to kind of think about and look at why that might be. You know, that's very curious. I think, you know, maybe some some immediate kind of you know, this is just me completely kind of speaking off the cuff and off the top of my head.
00:52:42:02 - 00:53:07:22
Clark
But I wonder if some of that difference is kind of, you know, here in the United States, actually. I mean, I can speak to the United States. I lived here my entire life. You know, our culture here is a very aspirational be. We have a very kind of strong kind of undercurrent of a specific kind of morality, I think that sometimes precludes us from being able to easily explore taboo subjects.
00:53:08:11 - 00:53:29:06
Clark
I mean, there's a lot of taboo subjects in the United States, and some of them are quite interesting. So, you know, this film in particular explores to some extent, you know, sexuality, relationships, monogamy, fidelity. And of course, in the United States, you can explore violence all day long, right? You can have a film that explores violence and violence as such.
00:53:29:07 - 00:53:43:01
Clark
I mean, that's it's just everywhere in American cinema. But if you get into some of these other questions that you could run into some taboo stuff real quickly. Right. So that's interesting. I mean, maybe there's some difference there. Well, I mean.
00:53:43:01 - 00:54:09:18
Cullen
Also we've got Ed, like heavy, especially obviously Villeneuve being from trauma. Yeah. But that you've got these like a huge amount of French influence on our cinema that a lot of the big filmmakers here are from French Canada. So that obviously is going to be detached, more so from the American style of cinema, which there is, you know, huge influence on here as well because we're so close, you know, culturally and geographically.
00:54:09:23 - 00:54:31:19
Cullen
Right. But that Quebec really tends to be a lot more European in its style, and that bleeds out through the rest of Canada. So there's almost like this like kind of homogenous section of Canada that's, super European, that that affects so much of what, you know, there's so much public funding for film here. There's a lot of just wonders like that.
00:54:31:19 - 00:55:08:04
Cullen
But you go in and you look at that and you look a lot of the movies that that are funded publicly here. And yeah, there's a ton of, I would say a much more European slant at the way that films are made and shot and stories are presented here than American, which is very, very interesting. And perhaps it's also it might also just be because we have American cinema and that you know, a lot of Canadians to, you know, filmmakers to kind of differentiate themselves from that decide to go in the route that is a lot more of a like a quebecor style versus, you know, you know, on a more American style of film
00:55:08:04 - 00:55:23:20
Cullen
and storytelling. Right. And it's not to say that one is better than the other by any means, but but that more so. I appreciate in a sense, a lot more than I did when I was a kid, where, of course, you just want, you know, Indiana Jones or Top Gun or something like that as a kid, because you're like, why is all Canadians?
00:55:24:02 - 00:55:25:19
Clark
So there's a place for both. There is.
00:55:26:01 - 00:55:26:06
Cullen
There is.
00:55:27:00 - 00:55:27:08
Clark
There's a.
00:55:27:08 - 00:55:50:08
Cullen
Place. And I still love Indiana Jones like I mean, yeah, most of my favorite movies are American, but there's certainly a growing appreciation for me, especially as I got older in Canadian cinema and looking at that sort of thing and seeing kind of again, those through lines and and understanding kind of why certain things or certain ways, I mean, we have harsh winters.
00:55:50:08 - 00:55:56:11
Cullen
Maybe it's just that maybe it's literally just that our winters are so well that and it makes us all depressed and makes all our movies flat.
00:55:56:12 - 00:55:56:21
Clark
I mean, there's.
00:55:56:21 - 00:55:57:05
Cullen
Notional.
00:55:57:11 - 00:56:30:05
Clark
There's a lot of demographic difficult differences, religious religious differences, historical differences, definitely. Yeah. So there's and that's that's always interesting to explore. And it's that's it's fun to see the differences in art that come from different cultures and similarities. So, yeah, it's just very intriguing. I had never really thought about that. You know, I think I kind of take for granted sometimes that although you are geographically close, there are still some significant cultural differences, and that's obviously going to manifest in the films that come from Canada versus the United States.
00:56:30:05 - 00:56:40:13
Clark
In a lot of instances. Not that Canadians can't make great like actions, you know, whatever you might categorize American cinema as, of course, and vice versa. It's not that at all. But it's just an.
00:56:40:13 - 00:56:42:07
Cullen
Interesting James Cameron is is.
00:56:42:07 - 00:56:42:20
Clark
Yeah.
00:56:43:01 - 00:56:47:01
Cullen
Oh my gosh. But he clearly kind of very much jumped into the American film.
00:56:47:02 - 00:56:50:13
Clark
He couldn't be more American, I feel like, you know. Yeah, I.
00:56:50:16 - 00:57:11:19
Cullen
Like his movies. Yeah, his movies are well, his movies are totally American, too. Yeah. You know that, that, you know, Avatar and Titanic and all those are American produced movies. So. Yeah, but yeah, it's just kind of an interesting, um, that, that in terms of Canadian cinema, not just being made by Canadians but like the actual genre of, of cinema, there's a very specific, Yeah, very specific feel to it.
00:57:11:19 - 00:57:37:00
Cullen
And this certainly, you know, falls into that I think before, if you're not from Canada, if you want to kind of perhaps get a taste of what it's like, this is, I would say, a good place to Cronenberg's movies, maybe lesser so than The Fly, because that was a kind of a co-produced American film. Yeah, but I'd say like Videodrome and a lot of those movies that that explore, again, these taboo subjects are those are kind of good places to start if you want to jump into it.
00:57:37:07 - 00:57:59:05
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. Excellent, man. Well, fantastic. Well, I, I appreciate you bringing Enemy into our podcast to discuss. It's, it, it's enjoyable and I think it's especially interesting. I mean, a lot of the films that we've that we've done in the past, I think it was like I enjoyed them and I, you know, I enjoyed them on a kind of a superficial level and I respected them.
00:57:59:05 - 00:58:21:11
Clark
And this was an interesting film for me where it's I really didn't enjoy it on a personal kind of audience level, but there's a ton here to respect and there's a lot here to kind of stimulate thinking about filmmaking and and that's awesome. That's a blast. So awesome. Well, I guess there'll be a wrap for episode 47. Yeah.
00:58:21:16 - 00:58:32:15
Clark
Yeah. As always. Cohen, it's been a pleasure. And everybody out there who's listening, we appreciate you. We hope you enjoyed it and we'll see you next time. And episode 48 Until then, take care, everybody.
00:58:32:16 - 00:58:41:06
Cullen
Yeah. Bye bye.