Cullen
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to episode 49 of the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I am Colin McFater and joined with me, as always joined with me. Is that correct?
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Clark
I'm joined. I'm joined at the hip. I'm connected.
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Cullen
Yes, exactly.
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Speaker 3
I am your cinema.
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Clark
Your cinema. Conjoined twin.
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Speaker 3
Yes. Blood, coffee. Hey, hey, hey.
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Cullen
Somehow we are. We are a thousand miles apart, but still conjoined.
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Speaker 3
Via.
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Clark
The magic of cinema.
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Speaker 3
Yes. Yes, exactly.
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Cullen
And specifically the magic of Edward Wood Junior. Oh, yeah. We're doing one of my favorites today. Ed Wood, Tim Burton, 1994.
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Speaker 3
And May.
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Cullen
93.
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Speaker 3
90.
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Cullen
Four, 93.
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Clark
94. Yeah. Released in 94. In September to be September 23rd, to be exact was a it was a.
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Speaker 3
New York.
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Clark
Film Festival release and then it was released nationwide September 30th. So I'm so sorry. I'm not trying to be USA centric. I that's just the data that I have before me. I don't know if it was released in Canada at the same time or not.
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Cullen
I think most of our releases are like.
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Clark
Pretty well tied. Yeah.
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Speaker 3
Yeah.
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Clark
So as always, I'm super. I'm super curious as to, well, I have some hunches, but I'm curious as to why as such a young'un, you would be interested in a film that came out kind of before your time, but you said it's one of your favorites. And so let's like jump into that. Are like personal experiences with the film we'll start off with there.
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Clark
So yeah, Tell us a little bit more about why you picked the film and what's going on with you in this and this flick.
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Cullen
Yeah, I don't. I think it's it's just, you know, to put it, frankly, it's a very charming film. It's like it's like a it's a, it's almost like a comfort food in a film.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, it.
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Clark
Is. It's super charming.
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Cullen
It's like, really funny. It's really stylized, It's well done and all the performances are great. The music is fantastic. It's just one of those movies that, like, you kind of can put on and you're just pretty much smiling the entire way through.
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Clark
I mean, especially if you if you love cinema and especially if you're a filmmaker, right? Because I think it it kind of helps you feel a little bit better about being a freak.
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Speaker 3
Mm hmm.
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Cullen
And I've got a note about, like, imposter syndrome and that kind of thing about, okay, how do you know? You know, if you're any good and like, yeah, both of us just worked on features separately and, and, you know, I think that's definitely a question I'm asking myself constantly is like.
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Speaker 3
That's the thing.
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Cullen
Just a huge piece of crap. And I just think it's good because I made it. So yeah, I think that that's to me, you know, there's this, there's this super empathetic, relatable side to this movie, but it's done. So, you know, it's referred to a lot as like a biopic, but I don't think that it's you know, I think that we kind of agree that it's not really like that's not the classification I'd put it under.
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Cullen
Yeah, it's it's much more of a in the spirit of. Atwood Yeah. It's, it's something that's kind of trying to like capture the, the essence of his filmmaking and stuff like that. Much more than the essence of his life, because his life in reality was, was much more depressing and.
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Speaker 3
Sad.
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Cullen
And sad. And not that this movie necessarily shies away from, you know, the fact that he was you know, to put it simply, it's kind of like a failure in that in that regard and that he didn't really succeed in his dreams of becoming like a really successful Orson Welles type of of of filmmaker. But at the same time, it plays all of that with kind of like a really, you know, a lot of heart.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, A lot of love. A lot of.
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Cullen
Love. Exactly. Yeah. And so it's not and it's never, you know, it's it's, it's never making like a mockery of him. It's in fact, it's very, very empathetic to all of these. Like, you kind of said that it's it's almost like a little bit of like a kind of like a freak show in a way and in it.
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Cullen
But every single one of them is treated with with, you know, a lot of passion.
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Speaker 3
With empathy.
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Cullen
Yeah, Empathy. Exactly. And so it I don't know. There's something about that a of course, is relatable because I you know, I make movies and it's about making movies and stuff like that. But be on I think, you know, any artist who like film or not would be able to easily relate to it and even add on, you know, a third kind of tier of that, people who aren't artists at all and have no real personal connection to anything that goes on this movie, I think, can still genuinely get a lot out of it.
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Cullen
I mean, yeah, it's it's a funny movie. It's it's got great performances. Bill Murray is also someone who's fantastic in it.
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Speaker 3
And yeah, like all around Yeah it's it's a.
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Cullen
Good movie.
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Speaker 3
And it's.
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Clark
A it's a good example of, of Johnny Depp and his performance.
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Speaker 3
Yes. Yeah.
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Clark
Performances you know before he this is almost a decade before he did his first Pirates of the Caribbean film and turned into you know mega international worldwide huge film star And you know he had only done, I think four or five like what, five films or so, something like that. Five. Yeah.
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Cullen
And a lot of them with with or at least Edwards's or hands we had done.
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Clark
Yep. He had done Edward Scissorhands with Burton before. So yeah. So it's a good example I think of of early Depp work which is really worth watching. But yeah, I mean I share so many of the same thoughts that you just expressed. I saw the film when it was released. You know, Tim Burton was at the top of his game and, you know, height of his powers, at least, you know, and maybe he's had a couple of those kind of, you know, career points.
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Clark
He's made a lot of movies that have made a lot of money. But this is, you know, he had done the Batman films and he had made a heck of a lot of dough, which is what I'm going to guess allowed him to make a black and white film here. And Ed Wood, which I think is a brilliant choice.
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Clark
And we're going to talk about that a little bit more. But but yeah, so I think I saw it at the theater. Tim Burton was huge. Johnny Depp I was a fan already. I was a big fan of Johnny Depp. I had seen Edward Scissorhands and I just was excited to go see Depp's performance. And I think that's probably what drew me more than anything.
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Clark
Maybe. I don't know if I was like consciously a Tim Burton fan or anything at this point in time, you know?
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Cullen
Yeah, I mean, I mean, me too. I like I still I would say that I like a lot of Tim Burton's movies. I really like the Batman movies. Yeah, I love I mean, I love this one. Yeah. But I wouldn't I don't think I'd consider myself, like, a fan of Tim Burton's. I don't really know.
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Speaker 3
Yeah.
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Clark
I'm not even now, you know, I'm not even, like, really a fan now. I don't dislike him at all. And I'm really happy that he exists because I think he's a very unique voice. And I, I always love that, you know, when somebody has a very specific point of view and a unique, authentic voice, I mean, that's that's a that's an absolute joy, even if that's not necessarily something that that really pulls me in really close.
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Clark
But yeah, I mean, just to go back. So I think, you know, I as a fan of Depp's, you know, what's eating Gilbert Grape had come out the year before Benny and June before that he had done, like you said, Edward Scissorhands and I might've might have even seen Crybaby before this, with which of course there's a John Waters film from I think 1990, I think ish.
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Clark
So I was a real big fan of Depp's and it was still kind of felt like he was like this thing to discover still, you know. So. So I was big into that night, you know, it was kind of my dreams were kind of blossoming about wanting to be an actor. And, and so I went for that. But yeah, I mean, just as somebody who was interested in becoming a filmmaker or working in that industry, the film was fascinating to me at that point.
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Clark
And I had grown up. Now, not on Ed Wood's films, The Real Ed Wood. I hadn't grown up on his films at all, but I definitely grew up on genre pictures, exploitation pictures, bee flicks, because again, like I told the story before, but, you know, my parents would were into those films and would invite friends over and maybe like once every couple of weeks or a month or whatever it was, they would screen, you know, some one of these cheesy genre movies.
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Clark
And that's how I fell in love with Mad Max, for example, which is hard to remember now. But in the way back when, the first Mad Max film was a total exploitation flick, you know, so, so I was kind of very familiar with this genre, and I enjoyed I enjoyed these kind of goofy films, you know, And and so so I kind of had fun with that when I watched the picture.
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Clark
So I definitely want.
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Cullen
To I think that what's what's what I also really love about this movie is that they kind of like Tim Burton especially uses this as sort of a vehicle to air all of the gripes with like the independent filmmaking process. Like they're they're filming outside on the street and then the police car rolls around the corner and then Edward looks at all his crew and goes, We don't open it, run.
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Cullen
And they'll they'll like pick up the camera and run away or, you know, the everlasting quest for money. And he's everybody talks to as a zero interest. And the one lady who says that she's gotten what, 100 grand or something for them and then is like, I gave you all I had when I gave you that 300. And, you know, it's just this this great thing that I think anybody who has done independent film.
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Speaker 3
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, there's that element.
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Cullen
To that that you just get these, you know, some people are just flatly unreliable and then and there's all these funny, but then there's always also there's this kind of core group of people that most people end up working with and becoming really great friends with. Yeah. Who are all very passionate stuff like that. And so I can definitely relate to, to that aspect now and.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, now and like now when I watched it again. Yeah, yeah, I definitely had that.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
And I think that, you know, I, in terms of my first time, I honestly don't really remember what the first time that I saw it was or what my initial reaction was. I think I was like sick at home from school one day when I was and this is back when Blockbuster was still around.
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Speaker 3
Yeah.
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Cullen
And I think my mom probably just like went and rented a few movies for me from Blockbuster to watch.
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Clark
Well, she just randomly picked this.
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Cullen
Yeah. And I think it was like this. I actually specifically think I remember which movie she got. I think it was like this Gandhi. And there's something about Mary.
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Speaker 3
After this.
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Cullen
Strange slew of movies.
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Speaker 3
What a selection.
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Cullen
Yeah, but, um. But yeah, the, the and so I don't really remember my initial reaction. Of course, I've always been interested in making movies, but I think, yeah, you know, to me it was just kind of like a funny movie with with Johnny Depp and Dracula and then I rewatched it, um, probably, you know, maybe around the time I graduated high school.
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Cullen
Okay. And I think I connected to it a lot more emotionally. Um, you know, I think I just, like, really, really understood a lot of, like, the struggles of Edward, even though, you know, I don't know a lot about Edward. And so I'm not sure exactly what he was like in real life, but.
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Clark
The struggles of somebody in that position.
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Cullen
Yeah, yeah. And definitely the struggles of the Edward that is presented in this film.
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Clark
And and I think that's like one of the real joys. And that's certainly what, you know, this wasn't as much a part of my experience when I saw it the first time around, but, but seen and I haven't seen it in a very long time. But watching it now in preparation for this podcast after you'd recommended it, I you know, that is the number one thing that stands out to me by far is my connection to this film as somebody who I can so greatly empathize with a character who and with this I think we all or most of us have this part of us somewhere it's larger and others may be smaller in others,
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Clark
but this part of is where we want something in life. We have a dream and and, you know, at some point, hopefully we are pursuing that dream and inevitably along the way are questioning, am I deluded? Do I have any talent in this? Is this something I should even be pursuing, or am I just crazy? Am I have I tricked myself into thinking that this is my calling?
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Clark
Am I? Because you look at the world around you and we see examples of delusion all day long as I'm actually in art, and especially.
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Speaker 3
Filmmaking, and I've been.
00:12:18:01 - 00:12:22:14
Clark
Involved with a lot of projects with a lot of really deluded people.
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Speaker 3
Oh yeah.
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Cullen
I mean, and it's actually it's kind.
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Speaker 3
Of it's included myself. It's somewhat it's.
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Cullen
Somewhat depressing, too, sometimes, too, to meet people who, like especially I find this is very common with with actors because because it doesn't really you know, it it can cost a lot of money to try and be an actor.
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Clark
But yes, it can hold up for.
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Cullen
A matter for the matter of like you don't need equipment and stuff like that. So a lot of people kind of try and get into that type of thing. But there's a lot of people that you'll meet that just don't you know, I think this is what this movie really touches on that's really well. Well, is that that they you meet these people who are so, so passionate like they had all.
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Speaker 3
So much passion. Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:02:03 - 00:13:07:23
Cullen
They're just like you just kind of want to tell them, oh, sit them down and say, like, you just don't got it.
00:13:08:04 - 00:13:26:03
Clark
You need to go back to school. Yeah, yeah. At least train somewhere. Well look. And that's what I mean. And so that, so for me that was my connection to it here. There's also, there are other that's, that's a huge part of it. The other aspect of it is, you know that you've got this Scooby gang of outsiders with Ed Wood at the helm.
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Clark
And like you said, this film is extremely empathetic to these characters and all of these characters that are kind of whether it's, you know, wanting to like, been obsessed with angora sweaters or or like saying or being, like, allergic to liquid, I mean, and everything in between these characters, they they some of them look weird. They act weird.
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Clark
They have, you know, all of these kind of they're very eccentric people, but they come together and they form this family and that's.
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Cullen
Never mean spirited. It's yeah.
00:13:57:21 - 00:14:22:13
Clark
And that's what the filmmaking experience really feels like. Like that is what it feels like. And, and I don't care what film you ever working on, that's how it feels. You come together and you become a family and you're you're working with people under stressful situations and very long days, often on locations. Everybody's away from home. And so you really get to know people well.
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Speaker 3
And so you really people's.
00:14:24:12 - 00:14:46:02
Clark
Like eccentricities are on display quite prominently in some cases. And so that's very charming. I mean, this film does a great job of of kind of handling that aspect of this of this industry and this art and a really lovingly way and in an endearing way. And that really jumps out to me when I saw it this latest time.
00:14:46:06 - 00:15:09:08
Cullen
Yeah. Now, one quick side note, too, that yeah, it's funny to me that not that this film is in any way similar stylistically to like a Herzog film, but the conversation we're having around this film sort of reminds me a lot of like the earlier episodes of the podcast, which is a lot about, you know, perhaps it is because the movie's about making movies, but, you know, it's kind of it's bringing me back a little bit.
00:15:09:12 - 00:15:10:18
Cullen
Yeah, that's a really.
00:15:10:20 - 00:15:13:03
Clark
Like, what are you thinking of? Yeah, what is it bringing you back to?
00:15:13:03 - 00:15:25:15
Cullen
Just just about the, like the drive and the need for urgency and it's like this, this, you know, it kind of I see, weirdly enough, similarities on the quality of their work, but at least like, there's.
00:15:25:18 - 00:15:31:02
Speaker 3
Oh, I love this. I love this comparison between Hollywood and Herzog. Yeah. Oh, my God.
00:15:31:09 - 00:15:51:15
Clark
Okay, this is interesting. This is great. So I hadn't thought about this, but, well, like, we're going to take like, a little side side trip here for just a minute because I think this is fun. So, you know, I think look, on the one hand now you have Herzog on the one hand, and it's not like every movie he's ever made is is a masterpiece, but he has definitely made masterpieces.
00:15:51:15 - 00:16:06:02
Clark
Yeah. And I think anybody who has even a, you know, cursory kind of, you know, like like any kind of barely, you know, peripheral relationship with cinema can like, realize that that Herzog is very talented.
00:16:06:02 - 00:16:07:07
Speaker 3
Filmmaker Yes. Yeah.
00:16:07:14 - 00:16:30:15
Clark
In both documentaries and in narrative feature films. And he's proven this over and over and over. And you're right, Herzog talks about this urgency. I mean, where he'll write a script in just a couple of days, and he, you know, I mean, he's got this drive. He doesn't storyboard. He like I mean, there's like this intense level of passion and drive.
00:16:30:18 - 00:16:40:23
Clark
And then you have Ed Wood, same thing now tense passion, intense drive, like I mean, look, not to get too cheesy, but you could say that Ed Wood was a soldier of cinema.
00:16:41:04 - 00:16:48:05
Cullen
Yeah. I mean, they're kind of like two sides of the same coin. And I think the differentiation is more so the talent now.
00:16:48:05 - 00:17:06:11
Clark
But this is very interesting and I'm not saying there's any we're not going to be able to come up with any answers here. But just to kind of like just think about for a second, you know, because talent is a very interesting term, especially, Yes. In a modern culture. Now, other cultures have different ideas about what talent is.
00:17:06:11 - 00:17:27:19
Clark
So I'm kind of speaking more from my experience, kind of a Western culture and current modern day. I've been around for 45 years. I can't speak to what this might have been like 2000 years ago, but now, I mean, talent has a very it's a very loaded term there. And I think people have interesting viewpoints on what talent is.
00:17:27:23 - 00:17:47:08
Clark
Is it innate? Is it the result of a lot of work? Is it a combination of these two things? Is it something that exists inside you? Is it something that you channel from somewhere else? So this is interesting to me because I don't know that it's just so simple as well. Herzog somehow magically has.
00:17:47:08 - 00:17:47:20
Cullen
Talent.
00:17:47:20 - 00:17:54:07
Clark
And has talent and Edward doesn't. I think that's that's way to over that's oversimplistic.
00:17:54:13 - 00:17:54:21
Speaker 3
Mm hmm.
00:17:55:00 - 00:18:00:10
Clark
And I think it shortchanges what talent might actually be. But it's interesting to think about.
00:18:00:16 - 00:18:05:11
Cullen
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely it's just kind of funny because I didn't. I didn't think of that about that really before.
00:18:05:12 - 00:18:07:03
Speaker 3
Yeah. No, this right now that said.
00:18:07:17 - 00:18:10:11
Cullen
There's a lot of, um, there's no lines there.
00:18:10:11 - 00:18:19:09
Clark
And Herzog has, you know, and look at somebody like Kinski who is, I mean, you know, Herzog built a team of outsiders of eccentric people.
00:18:19:09 - 00:18:20:18
Cullen
And Herzog is eccentric himself.
00:18:20:18 - 00:18:22:18
Clark
And he's very look, he's.
00:18:22:18 - 00:18:23:17
Speaker 3
Nuts, to say the least.
00:18:24:00 - 00:18:43:02
Clark
To say the least. And this. So this is beautiful. Actually, I think that this is fun and this actually kind of helps me appreciate this even more. I feel kind of thinking about this and and it makes you wonder. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, they get I will get back on track in a second.
00:18:43:02 - 00:19:00:18
Clark
But, you know, it also I go through life kind of thinking and especially as I get older and older, I kind of think, you know, the end result doesn't matter that much. When I was really young, I thought that that's all that mattered. And so if I were approaching a film project, for example, I would be like, Well, you know, nothing matters.
00:19:00:18 - 00:19:25:07
Clark
But but what you get at the end of it, I don't believe that anymore. Now, I actually I think the end result is kind of important, but by far and away what's more important is the process of making it, in my opinion. And it's interesting that I feel like this film actually does a good job of kind of illustrating that in a sense that it shows how much fun he has in the process of making a film.
00:19:25:07 - 00:19:49:10
Clark
It shows the camaraderie and the family that's built around these films. It brings these people together who might be, quote unquote, too weird to do much else. And and they've kind of found a home and and a career and a purpose. And who cares if the film comes out at the end? Not that great. I mean, and this is a this is a valid question.
00:19:49:10 - 00:19:51:14
Cullen
And we are sitting here talking about. Ed Wood.
00:19:51:20 - 00:19:53:04
Speaker 3
Yeah, we're sitting yeah. So I was.
00:19:53:04 - 00:19:54:05
Cullen
Like, yeah, it's like he's.
00:19:54:10 - 00:19:55:09
Speaker 3
Seven years later.
00:19:55:12 - 00:20:14:02
Cullen
In that way. He's a he's immortal in that sense. And I think that that's yeah, that's a great point that, that the, you know, you get this feeling too and again this is specifically to talk about the movie rather than the real life experiences. We don't necessarily know what it was like on his sets or anything like that if it was.
00:20:14:02 - 00:20:37:23
Cullen
But but in the film, I think what it presents really well is also this idea that, like even when people are, you know, laughing at him or making not making fun of, but like they disagree with him, that there's also this sense of just like, well, okay, we're going to do it like know like DP There's a few moments where the DP is very funny sitting there going like, I don't know what this is, but yeah, you know, but no, that's and that's what I mean.
00:20:37:23 - 00:20:52:01
Cullen
Everyone's like, you get that big wrap party at the end, not the end, but, you know, probably three quarters of the way in the movie and, and they're all like dancing and having fun and everyone's just so excited to be there and being in the next movie. And Bela Lugosi is excited to be in his next movie. And it's.
00:20:52:04 - 00:20:54:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's nice to meet you. It's this.
00:20:54:05 - 00:21:23:11
Clark
I've experienced this and it's very interesting because, you know, because like, there are many facets to all of these kind of things. And I just I mean, why not? We're like, digressing all over the place, so, hey, great. But, you know, I've experienced this. You know, I've been on set, I've been on films where, you know, I've seen a lot of things that I, at least I perceive as likely challenges for the film as far as what the end result is going to be, you know, at least from my perspective, I see a script that may not be as strong as it could be.
00:21:23:11 - 00:21:41:23
Clark
I see challenges with performances. I see, you know, a lot of these are limitations with budgets, but limitations for a lot of different reasons. And and what I see is that there's just like this energy is is so infectious and it's kind of I mean, and I think anybody out there who's worked in the industry will have will well know what I'm talking about.
00:21:41:23 - 00:22:02:12
Clark
You've experienced this that there's just this like inertia that builds up. There's this like snowball effect and people just get so excited with the process of making a film for those people who are really there because they want to be that you just, you just like, steamroll through all that stuff. I mean, and people ask like, how in the world did this horrible film get made?
00:22:02:21 - 00:22:03:03
Speaker 3
Well.
00:22:03:11 - 00:22:19:23
Clark
The really cynical answer to that question is that, you know, somebody somewhere wanted to try to make a quick buck. And yeah, that sometimes does happen. Sure. Yeah. But but more often than not, the reason that this film got made and it's not very good is because everybody making it was like.
00:22:20:06 - 00:22:20:16
Speaker 3
Who?
00:22:20:16 - 00:22:28:06
Clark
Like just let's go for it. This process is so engaging and and is so consuming that you just move.
00:22:28:09 - 00:22:29:22
Speaker 3
Yeah, but anyway, and I.
00:22:29:22 - 00:22:34:06
Cullen
Honestly think that it's actually not too difficult to discern between those two things. Yeah.
00:22:34:08 - 00:22:37:14
Speaker 3
Like, you know, which is why I would stay things.
00:22:37:14 - 00:22:44:11
Cullen
Yeah. And I think that the matter of, of, of discerning for me at least is just that you can always feel the soul and the spirit.
00:22:44:11 - 00:22:44:19
Speaker 3
Yes.
00:22:45:00 - 00:23:06:11
Cullen
Of a movie that has even if it's a really bad movie. And that's kind of why you get these things like, um, you know, I know it's kind of tortured to death, but like the room and why that has such a cult following. But then when somebody goes on and makes a film that is sort of intentionally bad, like that's its own genre on its own right now, we're like a studio is like, okay, we're going to make this intentionally stupid and bad.
00:23:06:11 - 00:23:07:14
Cullen
And those always fall flat.
00:23:07:14 - 00:23:08:03
Speaker 3
Because they're.
00:23:08:03 - 00:23:08:17
Clark
Cynical.
00:23:08:17 - 00:23:24:20
Cullen
Exactly. And they're trying, you know, it's you know, there's a guy, the director named Neil Breen, who's this big he's kind of like big on line because he he makes these really, really bad movies. But he's so he thinks that he's amazing. And that's what I think is is the difference.
00:23:24:20 - 00:23:25:23
Speaker 3
That's what's endearing, too.
00:23:26:04 - 00:23:32:14
Cullen
Whereas like, you know, I could go watch I could go watch, you know, Star Wars nine, which gave me a headache.
00:23:32:14 - 00:23:36:05
Clark
And I don't even know what that is. What in the world was that one? I don't.
00:23:36:05 - 00:23:36:15
Speaker 3
Even Yeah.
00:23:36:15 - 00:23:38:05
Cullen
It was. It was the last one.
00:23:38:05 - 00:23:38:19
Speaker 3
The last As.
00:23:38:19 - 00:23:40:06
Clark
The Force Awakens.
00:23:40:06 - 00:23:40:17
Speaker 3
Or. Yeah.
00:23:41:05 - 00:23:58:14
Cullen
But that one is, is so like that to me is just soulless. Like it's, it's classically soulless. Nobody, it felt like nobody wanted to be there. And that's the difference is that you can feel and I have direct experience with that. You know I just I just made the feature and the like. There's this. Yes.
00:24:00:01 - 00:24:01:15
Speaker 3
And but there's.
00:24:02:04 - 00:24:16:06
Cullen
I was to speak to that kind of like on a personal level, I was like, there were sleepless nights. Absolutely. There were moments, you know, especially before a big shoot where it was like I would just get no sleep the night before because it was just so it was so stressful. But as soon as I stepped on set, I was not stressed at all.
00:24:16:06 - 00:24:38:06
Cullen
It was just a great, you know, experience. It was really fun and it was engaging. And it's like you don't sometimes you don't really if you are caring about the quality of the picture to such a degree that everyone is having a really bad time, then your movie is going to suffer in other ways for it. Whereas if you just trust your instincts and kind of go into it and go, you know what?
00:24:38:06 - 00:25:03:12
Cullen
I think that the choices that I make are going to be good either way, or at least hope So then I think that you're you're going to get something else, which is which is something that again, clearly has, um, you know, passion behind it. And I think that that is really, really the more important thing. And I definitely agree that yeah, it's not the end product to an extent is not the biggest thing in the world as to, as to what matters.
00:25:03:12 - 00:25:04:20
Cullen
Of course, you're trying to make the.
00:25:04:23 - 00:25:05:09
Speaker 3
Product.
00:25:05:21 - 00:25:21:06
Cullen
Good. I think most people are. But at the same time, like the biggest learning as a director comes from from the process rather than from sitting in a theater and, you know, watching the movie again and again. So yeah.
00:25:21:12 - 00:25:22:02
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's.
00:25:22:02 - 00:25:27:00
Cullen
In. And it really encapsulates that kind of that that entire Yeah. Feeling.
00:25:27:05 - 00:25:32:16
Clark
I agree. I think it and it does a great job of that too without having to be on the nose about it without.
00:25:32:16 - 00:25:33:19
Speaker 3
Having explicit.
00:25:33:19 - 00:25:38:03
Clark
About it. It's it's really just in how they handle the story as a whole.
00:25:38:15 - 00:25:39:15
Speaker 3
Yeah. And in movies.
00:25:39:17 - 00:25:41:23
Cullen
So heightened and so.
00:25:41:23 - 00:25:42:21
Speaker 3
Stylized.
00:25:42:21 - 00:25:47:02
Cullen
And stuff like that, it really is subtle in a lot of really meaningful places.
00:25:47:06 - 00:25:48:09
Clark
I think you're right. Yeah.
00:25:48:09 - 00:26:06:12
Cullen
The relationships, you know, even just the fact that, you know, Bela Lugosi, who was addicted to morphine, how the only way that you really get a glimpse of that is just the makeup artist rolls up his sleeve to put some makeup on him and there's just like a quick look and you see the scarring from the, like, the injections.
00:26:06:12 - 00:26:22:01
Cullen
And then they just kind of look at each other and then that's it. And that's all you need to know about where this guy is at. And it tells you so much about the character, it tells you so much about Lugosi in real life as well, because that that is authentic, that that is, you know, a true part of Lugosi's life.
00:26:22:06 - 00:26:47:23
Cullen
Yeah. And so and that's sort of what I mean. And another way that it's very similar to Herzog is this this kind of truth versus fact thing that we spoke about a lot in the in during the masterclass, which is just this idea that, you know, it's representation versus like representation. And so I think that this movie is is is representing things that that are based very loosely on true events in truth and true people.
00:26:49:12 - 00:27:03:04
Cullen
But it's distilling it down to an emotional reaction that an audience will have from watching it that will be more authentic than had they just made an off that like a true to life, uh, accurate biopic.
00:27:03:04 - 00:27:04:00
Clark
Right, right, right.
00:27:05:03 - 00:27:08:18
Cullen
Where something like Bohemian Rhapsody, like the Queen.
00:27:08:18 - 00:27:10:11
Speaker 3
Biopic, such a horrible show was.
00:27:10:11 - 00:27:21:02
Cullen
Was, which was all horrible. But that's exactly there was no like, there was nothing done with that movie. It was just it was just you might as well have sat down and had read the Wikipedia page.
00:27:21:05 - 00:27:22:22
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think.
00:27:22:22 - 00:27:30:09
Cullen
That that's I think that, that to me again, I wouldn't consider I would really classify this movie as a biopic, but it certainly is about someone who existed in.
00:27:30:09 - 00:27:31:22
Speaker 3
I want to say proven it's.
00:27:31:22 - 00:27:57:21
Clark
At least about it's, it's at least about Lugosi as much as it is Ed Wood And honestly, it may be more quote unquote, truthful or factual. It's more you know, it's more factual and factually accurate about Lugosi than it is about Ed Wood. Yeah, But I think that it's truthful about both people and even more so. Again, I agree.
00:27:57:21 - 00:28:33:19
Clark
This is not I wouldn't categorize this as any kind of biography. It's what it's truthful about is are all the things that we've just been discussing about what it means to be passionate about something and to put yourself into that, what it means to to be an outsider and to build your own chosen family around something that you want to do what it is to kind of and I think, you know, all of us, I'm guessing I'm going to guess because at least everybody I've ever spoken to feels like an outsider a lot of the times in their lives, because we all kind of are encapsulated in this, you know, meat bag that we walk
00:28:33:19 - 00:28:54:19
Clark
around in. And our consciousnesses are always, you know, tied to that. And it's like, we don't know what the hell else is going on in anybody else's mind. And we kind of live in our own world. And we're always wondering, you know, like, what are other people thinking? You know what I mean? At least most people I've talked to, it's like they we all feel like outsiders to some extent.
00:28:55:06 - 00:28:55:17
Speaker 3
Yeah, I.
00:28:55:17 - 00:29:27:20
Cullen
Actually I kind of want to read a quote from Tim Burton, too, about. Yeah, exactly. We're talking about what he said when when he was asked for the accuracy. It's not like a completely hardcore realistic biopic. It's in doing a biopic. You can't help but get inside the person's spirit a little bit. So give me some of the film is trying to be through Ed a little bit, so it's got an overly optimistic quality to it, which is I think it's very interesting, again, that you're you're looking at a movie that again, is looking at like the spirit of the person more so than just just a slate of facts.
00:29:27:20 - 00:29:30:18
Cullen
And like, I'm sure that Bela Lugosi didn't actually sleep in coffins and.
00:29:31:03 - 00:29:31:20
Speaker 3
Stuff like that.
00:29:33:06 - 00:29:51:22
Cullen
But but again, it also I think the part that really works in this movie is that it also heightens just the the absurdity of it all. Yeah. That I'm sure that, you know, the the real shoots and stuff weren't quite as eccentric and crazy as they're portrayed in the movie, but I'm sure that they were just as absurd.
00:29:52:22 - 00:30:12:09
Cullen
And I'm sure that the people that were working on these movies felt like they were just as in a much of an absurd situation as they really were. So yeah, And I think that that that truly is what what really drives me to like this movie is just again, just this, this it's so stylized in such a brilliant way.
00:30:12:09 - 00:30:22:08
Cullen
And I like I like I like strong choices like that. And I would take a strong choice like this in in this for the sake of like, Oh, for the sake of accuracy. Yeah. Than the opposite.
00:30:22:12 - 00:30:38:04
Clark
Well, let's talk about that a little more then. Let's talk about that. Because clearly, you know, Tim Burton here, I mean, clearly had proven from the very get go with Pee-Wee and even through a major blockbuster film, like I think did he do was it is two Batman films He did Batman and Batman.
00:30:38:13 - 00:30:39:18
Speaker 3
Batman or Batman Returns.
00:30:39:18 - 00:30:41:02
Cullen
And then Schumacher took over. Yeah.
00:30:41:13 - 00:31:08:04
Clark
Well, and then you want to talk about some strong choices. But, you know, even even with major studio blockbuster films, you know. Tim Burton, definitely you can say a lot of things about him, but he certainly makes strong choices. Absolutely. Yeah. And he you know, when you're watching a Tim Burton film, so let's talk about that in this, because I think this film is is a little bit unique in the films that he's made in some ways.
00:31:08:23 - 00:31:20:23
Clark
You talked about how when we were kind of warming up for this, that you felt like his direction was maybe, well, how about you? You know, why don't you just I won't put words.
00:31:21:00 - 00:31:34:22
Cullen
Yeah, yeah, sure. You know, I so I think that his direction here is what's interesting about this movie is that as eccentric and heightened it is as it is. I think what they've done, which is really brilliant, is toned down the Tim Burton ness of it.
00:31:34:23 - 00:31:35:08
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:31:35:15 - 00:31:36:08
Cullen
Where they are which they're.
00:31:36:08 - 00:31:37:18
Speaker 3
Still Do you mean by that. What do you think.
00:31:37:22 - 00:32:03:22
Cullen
So I mean I think the immediate thing that people go to when they think of Tim Burton is again, it's like these these very German, expressionistic like spirals, really eccentric set design and art direction that's very dreamlike. And again, very, very German, expressionistic. There's almost no German expressionism in this film. It's expressionistic in the way that Burton obviously is a very kinetic director and uses a lot of energy behind the camera and stuff like that.
00:32:03:22 - 00:32:21:14
Cullen
But again, it's it's a really toned down version of Burton. There's no crazy set design. There's no. And I think that what makes that so is that and I think you put this really well in our kind of preliminary discussion, which is that it's it's it's like Burton directing through the lens of Ed Wood and through the lens of the 1950s.
00:32:21:19 - 00:32:23:00
Speaker 3
Yeah. That's what I Yeah.
00:32:23:00 - 00:32:28:07
Cullen
And so it's, it's, it's, it's just it's less, there's less overt Burton isms.
00:32:28:07 - 00:32:28:17
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:32:29:00 - 00:32:48:02
Cullen
Yeah, yeah. You know, there's not, there's no really wacky costumes or, you know that there still are. I mean, you can definitely also see though at the same time where Burton's passion for these types of movies came from, because Burton obviously is super inspired by like these fifties B-movies. Well, you know, just look at any of his work, e.g..
00:32:48:02 - 00:32:48:20
Speaker 3
Concepcion.
00:32:48:23 - 00:32:49:23
Cullen
Active vampire.
00:32:50:05 - 00:32:51:10
Clark
Mars attacks.
00:32:51:10 - 00:32:52:08
Speaker 3
And all that. Exactly.
00:32:52:08 - 00:33:22:21
Clark
And I even, you know, in the in the commentary track for this, you know, he talked or the writers actually talked about how it was very when they were in the preliminary kind of negotiations of Tim Burton possibly directing this film. You know, they talked very extensively about how there were a lot of parallels. And, you know, it's Burton was a big fan of Vincent Price's, for example, and he loved those films and and genre films, horror films when he was growing up as a child.
00:33:22:21 - 00:33:32:08
Clark
And so when he saw it out and was able to then work with Vincent Price and Edward Scissorhands, that was a huge personal thing for Tim Burton. And so, of.
00:33:32:08 - 00:33:32:18
Speaker 3
Course.
00:33:33:00 - 00:33:54:06
Clark
This very much mirrors the story here that you have with Ed Wood. You know that he was a huge fan of Lucas's and being able to work with him was a highlight of Edward's career. So, you know, it clearly he's very personally motivated. And I think this is a very personal film, probably more so than Batman or Batman Returns or, you.
00:33:54:06 - 00:33:55:14
Cullen
Know, without a doubt. Yeah.
00:33:55:16 - 00:33:56:02
Clark
Yeah.
00:33:56:18 - 00:34:00:10
Cullen
And it might even be yeah, it might perhaps be his most personal of anything.
00:34:00:10 - 00:34:01:02
Speaker 3
It's possible.
00:34:01:02 - 00:34:01:11
Clark
Yeah.
00:34:02:11 - 00:34:25:19
Cullen
Yeah. And I think that that's, uh, it's just a really well, like, it's, it's got, it's one of those movies that, that just clearly has like a vision from the beginning to end of the process, not even just from the runtime, but like, of, like, you know, pre-production production that was very clearly, you know, everyone was on the same page from the cinematography to the and even just the fact that it's shot in black and white.
00:34:26:03 - 00:34:43:23
Cullen
Yeah. Which of course is always a pain to, to get a studio to agree to. And some studios were saying that they wanted first look rights or like you know cutting rights of final cut and things like that. And a lot of times what studios will do when somebody wants to shoot black and white is say, you can shoot it in color and then we can put it in black and white.
00:34:43:23 - 00:34:49:04
Cullen
But but I think, you know, it takes it takes a really staunch director to say no.
00:34:49:12 - 00:34:55:02
Clark
And and one who's made hundreds of billions of dollars. Yes. Which is where Tim Burton was sitting at this point in time.
00:34:55:03 - 00:34:56:18
Speaker 3
Yeah. So and and that.
00:34:57:00 - 00:35:00:00
Cullen
And you know, this movie I can't imagine this movie in color.
00:35:01:00 - 00:35:01:21
Speaker 3
Well, no, you can't.
00:35:01:21 - 00:35:14:11
Cullen
I think it would. I think that the black and white both brings you into the era, but also gives you this sort of subconscious, you know, freeing of the mind in a way that you just buy into all this, these crazy antics that these people are going through.
00:35:14:11 - 00:35:16:21
Speaker 3
Yeah, it feels like yeah, it feels like a time capsule.
00:35:16:22 - 00:35:35:00
Clark
It feels like a time capsule. It helped so much putting you in the set and setting of this story. It helps put you right back into the mid-fifties. It helps you, you know, because these were real people and our kind of conscious, our recollections of these people are in black and white like Bela Lugosi. So you.
00:35:35:00 - 00:35:36:06
Speaker 3
Don't see.
00:35:36:09 - 00:35:37:08
Cullen
Yeah, I don't know.
00:35:37:13 - 00:35:40:19
Speaker 3
I don't know what you're going to go see. Looks like hard, for example. So.
00:35:41:23 - 00:35:52:14
Clark
You know, I think it was a it was absolutely the right choice. The film. Yeah. An entirely different film. I think that if it were shot in color. So, you know, kudos to Tim for that for sure.
00:35:52:14 - 00:35:52:20
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:35:52:20 - 00:35:59:08
Cullen
And I think too it's it's I know Spielberg talked about when he was doing Schindler's List in black and white.
00:35:59:13 - 00:36:01:14
Speaker 3
Which was all somebody else in the same film STOCK.
00:36:01:20 - 00:36:36:15
Cullen
Yeah. And somebody at which a beautiful film star. Somebody asked why and he said, Because when you think of the Holocaust, you think of World War Two. You know, everything you see from that era is is in black and white. And that's that's how you imagine it. That's and it's and I think that it's similar here, of course, or again, very different movies but for perhaps couldn't be more different from each other but um but I think that that that logic holds in that you think of you think of especially someone like Bela Lugosi and it would be weird to see Dracula in color.
00:36:36:15 - 00:36:54:15
Cullen
And you even mentioned that there was a story about when they were doing screen tests with Bela, with with Jon Landau. Yeah. Or Martin Landau. I'm not John Landa. Correct. Of John Landis, but they're doing a screen test with Martin Landau and that that was in color and they were like, Oh, something's off. And then they just switched.
00:36:54:22 - 00:36:57:03
Speaker 3
The color of the monitor to black. And it was like.
00:36:57:10 - 00:37:27:19
Cullen
Dracula, you know. Yeah. So I think that, that, I think that yeah, I think if this movie was in color, it would have a totally different feel. I don't think it would work nearly as well. And I think that that's also really, really key. You know, a lot of people that I've spoken to write off, you know, modern films, I would consider this a modern film in terms of the scope of, you know, this is 30 years after the advent or more of after the advent of color or not advent, but the normalization of color, film.
00:37:27:19 - 00:37:44:01
Cullen
So it's not you know, they definitely were not shooting on black and white out of necessity. Um, and, but, and I know that there's a lot of people that kind of scoff at that and that kind of go like, oh, it's just they're trying to be like artsy or whatever. And they'll, they'll kind of write off a movie that's in black and white these days because.
00:37:44:01 - 00:37:48:14
Clark
Well, that's what studios are definitely afraid of. Yeah. Yeah. Off black and white films and nuts.
00:37:49:00 - 00:37:52:20
Cullen
But I think that it's, it's.
00:37:52:20 - 00:37:53:06
Speaker 3
It's.
00:37:54:18 - 00:38:00:11
Cullen
This is a masterclass of an example as to why color matters, like why those choices matter.
00:38:00:11 - 00:38:08:14
Clark
I mean it's it's a it's a lot less of a gimmick than some director who I won't name here wanting to do their film in for three.
00:38:09:22 - 00:38:10:16
Speaker 3
Yes.
00:38:11:21 - 00:38:32:06
Cullen
For three or 48 frames per second. But but I think and it's also also interesting too, that like there was a point when I did the movie that I was making, because I was I was going for a very Hitchcock style that I was considering shooting it in black and white, and I didn't. But I watched the movie in black and white.
00:38:32:06 - 00:38:58:19
Cullen
I've, like, turned off the color. And I think that it would be an it's an it's definitely an interesting thing. And I think it's it's what is fun to watch them back to back like that is to again understand how much color can impact the feel the mood of a movie much more so than people think and like all of these choices are are important down to like the feeling of again even aspect ratio a movie that's 185 feels very different than a movie that's in 239.
00:38:58:22 - 00:38:59:06
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:38:59:21 - 00:39:13:11
Cullen
And so I think that, you know, the amount of times that I've gone into a movie not to get lost on this tangent, but the amount of times that I've gone into a movie and it's been in widescreen because people think it's been two three, nine widescreen because people think that that makes something look more like air quotes.
00:39:13:11 - 00:39:14:18
Speaker 3
Cinematic right?
00:39:15:23 - 00:39:28:05
Cullen
And I'm sitting there going, like, the subject matter of this movie would fit 185 way more. And it's kind of funny that and again it works. It works with color as well. And so I think that I'm so glad that they were able to get this movie shot in black and white. I think that.
00:39:29:00 - 00:39:30:10
Speaker 3
Well, and it's not just.
00:39:30:14 - 00:39:33:07
Clark
Yeah, it's not just black and white, but it's high contrast.
00:39:33:07 - 00:39:35:15
Cullen
Yeah. It's not like it's, you know, in the fifties. Yeah.
00:39:35:23 - 00:39:40:05
Clark
Because even though it's black and white, it could have been shot in a lot of different ways. It could have been lit in a lot of different ways.
00:39:40:05 - 00:39:41:06
Speaker 3
Yeah. And they really.
00:39:41:06 - 00:40:11:08
Clark
Chose, you know, get, you know, it's, I think it's, it's just I think it's, it's fun and a medicine and I think this is what we've talked around a lot but not directly to so far is that you know what makes this film unique is that we are filming. So the subject was a filmmaker and so so the so Burton is is shooting this film about a filmmaker in the ways that the the subject would have shot his films.
00:40:11:08 - 00:40:36:07
Clark
So trying capture that spirit so and we talked earlier about limited camera movement and kind of you know restricting the camera to ways that they would have likely moved it. Then in the fifties the you know, choosing the film stock and the, you know, high contrast lighting, which is another way that, you know, that's how Edward would have likely shot or this genre films would have been shot in general in that way back then in the fifties.
00:40:36:07 - 00:41:01:17
Clark
So it's yeah, you know, it's kind of it's a really beautiful way of bringing us into the world of the subject of this film without having to tell us anything by literally in the choices of the medium. You know, in the film stock in the lighting, in the camera. So at the most fundamental levels, bringing us into that world and most people don't know consciously any of this stuff.
00:41:01:17 - 00:41:08:11
Clark
Yeah, no, they you know, most people aren't film nuts like us. And, you know, they're not going to know any of this stuff, but they sense it.
00:41:08:11 - 00:41:09:06
Speaker 3
But, but and.
00:41:09:07 - 00:41:10:17
Cullen
Yeah, it's subconscious. So often it.
00:41:10:17 - 00:41:14:00
Clark
Brings you right into that world. So I think that's beautiful.
00:41:14:10 - 00:41:39:00
Cullen
Not only is it, is it, is it lit like a fifties movie, but it's it's again, like you said, it's lit like an Ed Wood movie. And one of things that I noticed is a lot of the outside outdoor scenes during the day that they exteriors that it's almost like slightly overexposed and it looks like they don't really have, you know, these this day and age when when a large budget movie is shooting outside and this is the way it's been for for 50 years, is that they you know, they put up a flag above somewhere.
00:41:39:00 - 00:41:55:19
Cullen
So the sun is not directly, you know, brightly, brightly, exposing one side of their face and the other side's in shadow, especially on film. But I noticed one of things that I kind of noticed for the first time when I watched it this time was that a lot of the outdoor scenes clearly don't use that. They're just using kind of the natural light.
00:41:55:19 - 00:42:15:23
Cullen
Maybe they'll have a bounce or something below to illuminate the other side of the face. But but it's shot. You know, I it's not a bare bones movie. They had quite a large budget respectively, but it is it is shot to imitate something that was shot on a barebones budget.
00:42:15:23 - 00:42:16:08
Speaker 3
I think.
00:42:16:15 - 00:42:31:01
Cullen
You know, a lot of the lighting setups are very simple, but it's still really, really masterfully shot. It's a beautiful film, but it's and it does it so well it ever you know the last thing I'll say about the the look in the cinematography is that it's one of the best jokes in the movie is when they.
00:42:31:01 - 00:42:31:07
Speaker 3
Call it the.
00:42:31:14 - 00:42:40:00
Cullen
Red dress versus the pink dress or something. And they're like, which one looks better? And of course the movie's in black and white. And then the director of photography in the movie says, I don't know, I'm colorblind.
00:42:40:00 - 00:42:44:22
Speaker 3
I don't know. I'm colorblind. Go for the dark. Okay. The dark gray one. Yeah. And that was like, yeah.
00:42:45:01 - 00:43:00:12
Clark
I had completely forgotten that from the first my first viewings way back when, when it came out. And and I, I did think that was cute. And that's like a fine line because that could be a joke Like that could be too cute for your own good like that. And you know, you got to be careful. That's almost too cute.
00:43:00:12 - 00:43:01:12
Clark
But it was fun.
00:43:02:01 - 00:43:03:18
Speaker 3
It works. Yeah. Yeah, it was fun.
00:43:04:01 - 00:43:31:12
Clark
I mean, let's like, slide into a little bit performances because. Yes you know, you know, if we're talking about direction, we're talking about a lot of the visual visual aspects of the film. But clearly, you know, obviously, Burton did a great job. I think this is one of the most key successes. You know, things that makes the film a success is that I mean, you've got a lot of characters here that are pretty eccentric.
00:43:31:12 - 00:43:55:22
Clark
They're pretty out there, and I think it'd be really easy to misfire on tone for performance. Very, very easy. I mean, up to and including, you know, the lead here, Johnny Depp's performance on Johnny is a very talented actor, but this is a really line where these people, they kind of were caricatures, you know, I mean, you buy it in a sense.
00:43:55:22 - 00:44:21:16
Clark
It's like these characters are kind of taken to a level of caricature, but they're still genuine. It's still the core of them is very believable, even if their behaviors seem very stylized and heightened. We buy it. And I mean, I think Burton does a really wonderful job of tying a lot of different types of actors and performances in tone together for this film.
00:44:21:16 - 00:44:23:04
Clark
That really stood out to me.
00:44:23:15 - 00:44:29:07
Cullen
Mm hmm. Yeah. And Depp is so, like, charismatic.
00:44:29:07 - 00:44:30:18
Speaker 3
And, well, yeah.
00:44:30:18 - 00:44:46:06
Cullen
Again, genuine. And, like, he just has the heat. He captures this character of this this constant optimist of even when Bela Lugosi flip flipped out the guy for. Yeah. Or calling him Karloff's sidekick.
00:44:46:10 - 00:44:46:17
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:44:46:17 - 00:44:57:07
Cullen
And then, you know, there's this that great moment where where Barry Depp comes over, Edward comes over and he's like, he's like, Bela. I totally agree. Yeah. And it's like this, this is great.
00:44:57:07 - 00:44:58:04
Speaker 3
And it's he's got such.
00:44:58:04 - 00:45:01:11
Cullen
A great, you know, vocalization of even the characters. So fantastic.
00:45:01:12 - 00:45:06:15
Clark
But it's almost even like this, like, you know, these like fifties films that are like hazy and then it was.
00:45:06:15 - 00:45:07:02
Speaker 3
Well, it's.
00:45:07:02 - 00:45:08:01
Cullen
Just transatlantic.
00:45:08:13 - 00:45:09:20
Speaker 3
And he's almost like he's almost.
00:45:10:00 - 00:45:25:01
Clark
Yeah, he's kind of like talking in a way that we imagine and remember. A lot of films had characters speaking that way in that era where it's this very heightened, stylized, quick.
00:45:25:04 - 00:45:33:17
Cullen
Kind of like Jimmy Stewart. It's almost like it's, it's like that where that Jimmy Stewart kind of has this energy about him all the time. It's this this really positive and like, you know.
00:45:34:10 - 00:45:35:00
Speaker 3
And yet.
00:45:35:03 - 00:45:39:18
Clark
At a but but that could go horribly wrong. Yes and.
00:45:40:06 - 00:45:40:14
Speaker 3
If you.
00:45:40:19 - 00:45:46:22
Cullen
Yeah if you do one thing slightly different, it could be taken completely a different way and not work at all.
00:45:47:00 - 00:46:01:05
Clark
I mean, I think of like his girl Friday is kind of like such the typical, you know, kind of like film where people are speaking this way now that's a much earlier film in the forties, but I don't know, there's just a lot of you know so and it's but we.
00:46:01:05 - 00:46:01:18
Speaker 3
Buy was.
00:46:01:18 - 00:46:06:08
Cullen
Cary Grant Cary Grant was the most transatlantic you know yeah I'm here today to.
00:46:06:08 - 00:46:08:03
Speaker 3
Tell you about this There you go.
00:46:08:03 - 00:46:43:14
Clark
Exactly. We had this kind of manufactured fake accent that actors used to use, and but but we. But you buy it, I think, because the heart the heart of it, as we keep going back to, is very genuine. But, I mean, you know, we talk about Johnny Depp and his performance is very fun and we buy it. But but Landau's performance and of course, you know, Academy Award is is, I think, exceptional and in kind of another, you know, in more dimensions, maybe even in Johnny Depp's is which is that we his character's kind of trajectory we have a lot more space there to kind of, you know, see some of his challenges as a
00:46:43:14 - 00:47:04:22
Clark
character and and he does a really fantastic job of that. But I did want to see real quick before going off Johnny Depp, you know, in the commentary he talks about and gosh darn it, I can't remember exactly, but it sounds like Johnny likes to do this because I remember listening about him talk to his the creation of his character for the Pirates movies, for example.
00:47:04:22 - 00:47:20:10
Clark
And I remember he said, like, well, you know, I took Keith Richards and I took, you know, a couple of other things, and I mixed it together and I got Jack Sparrow. He did the same thing here. And it wasn't that he went back and looked at Ed Wood and said, okay, I'm going to try to copy what I see in Edward's work.
00:47:20:19 - 00:47:25:06
Clark
He took and I can't remember all of them, but he took Ronald Reagan.
00:47:26:15 - 00:47:27:15
Speaker 3
Interesting as a.
00:47:27:15 - 00:47:33:14
Clark
As one of like three pieces for for the work that he did to put together this character.
00:47:33:18 - 00:47:34:23
Cullen
Yeah, that's really interesting.
00:47:35:08 - 00:47:56:15
Clark
And gosh darn it, I wish I could remember the rest. We'll have to go back and listen to the commentary track on that. So anybody out there, you can find that. But but I thought that was hysterical or that it was, you know, and I think really vital that instead of doing and we've talked about this, instead of trying to go back and let's say I'm on a nail the way that Edward really spoke and really.
00:47:56:15 - 00:47:57:15
Cullen
His mannerisms.
00:47:57:15 - 00:48:26:12
Clark
And and I've got it was like, no, I wanted I'm going to like, reach for his essence and and, you know, and kind of go the sideways direction that it's not so obvious. Like you wouldn't fake Ronald Reagan, but it worked for him and it kind of helped him get into the deeper, actual, honest spirit of that character as opposed to trying to mirror the externalized, you know, kind of what he looked and sounded like, which is always a trap when films try to do that.
00:48:26:20 - 00:48:27:00
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:48:27:17 - 00:48:44:04
Clark
But yeah, just to go back to Landau, although, I mean, clearly an amazing performance. His daughter is in this film too, by the way, and Ron Howard's father is in this film, which is interesting. There's like some kind of examples of Hollywood nepotism going on here a little bit.
00:48:44:04 - 00:48:49:04
Speaker 3
What? There's nepotism in Hollywood. No way of getting me. Oh, there's.
00:48:49:04 - 00:48:55:19
Clark
Nepotism everywhere, let's face it. So. But what about I mean, obviously, those are stand out performances. What are your thoughts? I think.
00:48:55:19 - 00:49:18:02
Cullen
Sarah I mean, Sarah Jessica Parker is also I think like she is I think really has this again, sort of similar to Johnny Depp where she, like, brings in this transatlantic accent a little bit, where she, you know, but it's like this this very I don't even know which actor to kind of comment on and but it's it's it's like she'll you know, when she's like, do I really look like a horse?
00:49:18:02 - 00:49:26:03
Cullen
Like it's like this like kind of thing. And it's like, well, that and she's you know, she's got this great you know, it kind of feels like Leave It to Beaver, Like it's that.
00:49:26:08 - 00:49:26:21
Clark
And there's an.
00:49:26:21 - 00:49:28:12
Speaker 3
Energy. It's like, yeah.
00:49:28:12 - 00:49:35:01
Cullen
Everyone is like, it reminds me of, of, of seeing like, almost like really good theater in a way.
00:49:35:02 - 00:49:35:17
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:35:17 - 00:50:12:05
Cullen
Where, where, you know, actors often in theater are allowed to make like kind of bold or bigger choices because there's sort of more of a suspension of disbelief in theater than there is in film. And I think that this but I think this movie almost goes in that direction, even though it's all about film, although he does start out directing theater, I think that it's it's just yeah, like every every I think and it's rare to see this in a movie every single character, no matter if they have three lines or they're made the main character had clearly the actors put so much thought into the characterization.
00:50:12:10 - 00:50:16:23
Cullen
The two guys that are the police officers, I can't remember in a bunch of Edward's movies.
00:50:17:01 - 00:50:18:09
Speaker 3
Yeah, and these two guys.
00:50:18:09 - 00:50:54:07
Cullen
Are hilarious in this movie and they have like five lines, but like every time they're on screen and he's like, Well, I heard this one was going to be is his biggest picture yet. You know, it's like this this like everyone is just doing it. And I think that there's no better feeling when you're doing a movie that that is kind of like in this kind of subject area or genre area, when you get actors who are willing to do that, who are willing to just, you know, like again, throw out the sake of authenticity for something that is really energetic and truer and sort of more of an emotional sense then.
00:50:54:07 - 00:50:55:04
Speaker 3
Yeah, in your.
00:50:55:05 - 00:50:55:19
Cullen
Actual one.
00:50:55:19 - 00:51:01:09
Clark
Yeah. I mean, in the films loaded with great, you know, I mean, Bill Murray is hysterical. I think you mentioned him earlier.
00:51:01:09 - 00:51:09:07
Cullen
Yeah. Bill Murray's fantastic. I always forget Bill Murray is in this movie as well because it's such a movie that you wouldn't really think of him being in the lead.
00:51:09:12 - 00:51:17:22
Clark
Yeah. And I kind of vaguely, gosh, I don't want to get this wrong, but this is just kind of like my own recollection was that, you know, when this film came out.
00:51:19:00 - 00:51:20:11
Cullen
He just done Groundhog Day.
00:51:20:11 - 00:51:38:09
Clark
He had just done Groundhog Day. So he had you know, this was part of a bit of a resurgence for him, you know, Groundhog Day was obviously like an extraordinary fail and fiction. But I guess elevation because it's not like.
00:51:38:10 - 00:51:42:12
Speaker 3
Well, because he doesn't he does Scrooged because he did Scrooged ghost in 19.
00:51:42:20 - 00:51:43:08
Cullen
89.
00:51:43:12 - 00:51:48:23
Clark
But, but I think this really like took him to another level as far as where people were like, wow, you can.
00:51:48:23 - 00:52:16:06
Cullen
Almost also sort of see his the characterizations that he like the style of performance that he almost gives in like a Wes Anderson movie here where he gets less of the kind of fraternity screwball comedy type thing into more of a like a subtle theatrical comedy kind of style. And then because even if you watch Groundhog Day, he's still sort of in that like Ghostbusters again, kind of like.
00:52:16:06 - 00:52:16:19
Speaker 3
Kind of man.
00:52:16:20 - 00:52:18:04
Cullen
SNL fraternity.
00:52:18:04 - 00:52:19:18
Clark
Sarcastic kind.
00:52:19:23 - 00:52:25:09
Cullen
But then this one, he's not There's certainly the heir of Murray sarcasm. I don't think he could strip that away from it all.
00:52:25:09 - 00:52:26:06
Speaker 3
Yeah. Killing him.
00:52:26:13 - 00:52:49:06
Cullen
Yeah but but there but it's it's just it's it's subtle and he's he's playing this role that is so unusual for him, you know that that's so you know, my first choice for this role. I probably wouldn't have been Bill I wouldn't have even thought of Bill Murray. And yet I think that the way that they casted him and I don't know exactly how he was.
00:52:49:06 - 00:52:50:02
Speaker 3
Cast, but I don't.
00:52:50:06 - 00:53:08:13
Cullen
Know if he was interested in doing it. But in it, he just works so well. It's one of those like really unexpected things, kind of like, you know, Adam Sandler in Punch-Drunk Love where, you know, you don't expect Adam Sandler. As you know, I actually think that Adam Sandler has has some pretty good acting chops. Yeah.
00:53:09:01 - 00:53:11:06
Speaker 3
But very narrow.
00:53:11:06 - 00:53:12:21
Clark
Very. Yeah, I think. But yeah, that's.
00:53:12:21 - 00:53:14:00
Speaker 3
A topic for another day.
00:53:14:00 - 00:53:30:21
Cullen
But but you know, you don't expect someone like that to pull off a role like Uncut Gems or like Punch-Drunk Love. And then when they but sometimes they, they're almost like the best actors for them or even, you know, Jack Black has done some, some more dramatic roles that aren't as comedic and he's done really well with them.
00:53:31:14 - 00:53:38:17
Cullen
You know, say what you want about the 25 King Kong movie. But he I think he plays the role of Carl Denham in that super well.
00:53:38:17 - 00:53:40:09
Speaker 3
And so it's sort of I have seen it.
00:53:40:17 - 00:53:46:10
Cullen
Now it's actually I you know, that movie gets some flak, but I actually think it's very long. But I think it's a pretty fine movie.
00:53:46:10 - 00:53:48:07
Speaker 3
I'll have to check it out.
00:53:48:07 - 00:53:50:03
Cullen
Some damage to the to the original.
00:53:50:03 - 00:53:50:20
Speaker 3
I'll have to check it.
00:53:50:20 - 00:53:59:04
Clark
Out some day. But I mean, and then, you know, it's like, yeah, so we've talked, you know, Johnny Depp, Martin Landau, Sarah Jessica Parker. I mean, we didn't mention, but Patricia Arquette is in this. And of.
00:53:59:04 - 00:54:00:00
Speaker 3
Course.
00:54:00:00 - 00:54:07:01
Clark
I think she was just coming off 93 True Romance, Tony Scott's film that I love, quite frankly. And we might do that some day here.
00:54:07:01 - 00:54:08:03
Cullen
I do love Tony Scott.
00:54:08:08 - 00:54:17:08
Clark
Because I think True Romance is a fantastic film. But she had just come off that. I think she's almost, you know, in a way kind of the most normal.
00:54:17:14 - 00:54:20:05
Cullen
Yeah, she does less and. I think that's probably intentional.
00:54:20:08 - 00:54:20:18
Clark
But.
00:54:20:21 - 00:54:21:04
Speaker 3
But.
00:54:21:07 - 00:54:57:22
Clark
But but it's like I think it's kind of a sweet way to show that like you that and this is just me reading into it, but that, you know, as eccentric as you might be, you, you can connect to the quote unquote square world and you can find love and acceptance in this world. And that even when you see people outside of you and they look well put together and they look like they're, quote unquote, normal, they aren't usually almost certainly that were all kind of these eccentric outsiders.
00:54:58:02 - 00:55:32:00
Clark
And so for me, it kind of, you know, felt a little bit like that, that it was an opportunity to kind of subtly go in that direction. So, you know, hey, you can connect to to quote unquote, normal people and we're all kind of in one big pot. So Jeffrey Jones, somebody else who probably would stand out to anybody who's a fan of like eighties cinema, Jeffrey Jones is in it, just like I said, I mentioned Juliet Landau was and of course, Juliette went on to do a really wonderful job on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the television show.
00:55:32:13 - 00:55:39:14
Clark
And God, if I'm not, I don't want to get this wrong for anybody who's a fan, but I think it's Drusilla was her character's name.
00:55:39:20 - 00:55:42:02
Cullen
And I'm not sure I've never seen Buffy, so.
00:55:42:02 - 00:56:04:12
Clark
She was outstanding. She was really she was really, really strong in that show. I think she had she had a recurring role for a very long time, probably like the entirety of the show. I think she was on it almost from beginning to end. And then we've got Vincent D'Onofrio Yeah, so. Orson Welles Yeah, just fun stuff. So a lot of relief.
00:56:04:13 - 00:56:06:22
Cullen
Which again, I always forget that he's in this movie as well.
00:56:06:22 - 00:56:09:07
Speaker 3
Yeah, I almost don't. Rick Just the way he's lit.
00:56:09:07 - 00:56:16:21
Cullen
Vincent D'Onofrio is a funny actor because I almost like I always forget the Vincent D'Onofrio is in Full Metal Jacket.
00:56:16:21 - 00:56:17:13
Speaker 3
Well, see.
00:56:17:13 - 00:56:24:21
Clark
That's the one thing I always think of from him. It's hard for me to even remember other things. That is this big stand private.
00:56:24:21 - 00:56:27:00
Cullen
But he's been in a lot. Like if you look up Vincent's one.
00:56:27:00 - 00:56:27:16
Speaker 3
Oh. Oh. Oh, God. He's.
00:56:27:16 - 00:56:35:19
Cullen
He's a I actually really I think that he's very talented. He's extreme. Really, really great guy. I've heard that. He's, like, very kind and.
00:56:36:07 - 00:56:53:00
Clark
I mean, he's been in a million films and a lot of really great films. And and gosh, boy, I'm just looking here at his filmography. I mean, more than I could remember. I couldn't believe he Wow. Yeah. So he's been in a ton of things. And here's another one that might be fun to do some day. The cell.
00:56:53:12 - 00:57:17:23
Clark
Mm hmm. But a lot of great films. So, yeah, I mean, it's stuffed with good performances, I think. Really strong casting choices by Burton. And nobody here in the film strikes me as kind of out of place or, you know, not well-suited for the role. Just again, I think just more evidence that that Burton is just on top of his game with this film.
00:57:17:23 - 00:57:18:07
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:57:18:10 - 00:57:22:06
Cullen
And I think the last thing just to mention quickly, too, is Howard Shore.
00:57:22:12 - 00:57:24:09
Clark
Oh, let's not forget Mr. Stone.
00:57:24:09 - 00:57:27:07
Cullen
Yeah. And Howard Shore is one of my favorite composers.
00:57:27:11 - 00:57:27:18
Speaker 3
And the.
00:57:27:18 - 00:57:28:12
Clark
Ferryman.
00:57:29:09 - 00:57:51:20
Cullen
And the ferryman. And he goes like, just like every other aspect. This movie, Howard Shore, it goes all in on the like fifties. Um, you know, so yeah, B-movie kind of sound. But also again in the more like touching moments, he goes really soft and subtle and gets really nice. And I like how he invokes Swan Lake because of course that was the opening music to Dracula.
00:57:52:08 - 00:58:08:20
Cullen
And so he invokes Swan Lake whenever, whenever Bela Lugosi has like a struggling moment. Yeah, and it's interesting that he didn't. So they actually went with Howard Shore versus Danny Elfman, who was Burton's usual.
00:58:08:20 - 00:58:11:07
Clark
Okay, So Danny Elfman had worked with Burton.
00:58:11:20 - 00:58:12:10
Cullen
Before.
00:58:12:10 - 00:58:12:21
Speaker 3
Right? Pretty much.
00:58:12:22 - 00:58:14:08
Cullen
Every single one of Burton's major.
00:58:14:08 - 00:58:16:08
Clark
And after to Right. Yeah go.
00:58:16:09 - 00:58:20:02
Cullen
Yeah but they had so apparently on returns which was 92.
00:58:20:18 - 00:58:21:10
Speaker 3
They have a fight.
00:58:21:11 - 00:58:40:11
Cullen
The the pressure to get it done made them gave them some strain in their relationship and then that Elfman also did a nightmare before Christmas and they had some creative differences on that. So I think he just decided to go with shore, perhaps take a little vacation, give each other a little break. And then but pretty soon after they went back to working together.
00:58:40:14 - 00:58:44:09
Cullen
Interesting, because because I think Elfman still to this day, scores most of his movie.
00:58:44:11 - 00:58:44:19
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:58:45:20 - 00:58:54:01
Cullen
But yeah. And I like Danny Elfman a lot but I'd say that that Howard Shore was was a perfect choice for this like he really I remember I did a fake magic show at a.
00:58:54:23 - 00:58:55:11
Speaker 3
Wait, wait, wait.
00:58:55:14 - 00:58:57:01
Clark
That's a fake magic show.
00:58:57:01 - 00:58:59:11
Cullen
So it was like a magic show that was intentionally bad.
00:58:59:11 - 00:58:59:21
Speaker 3
Okay.
00:58:59:21 - 00:59:01:12
Cullen
Okay. Like, I would give someone a card.
00:59:01:12 - 00:59:04:07
Speaker 3
And I'm like, I'm like, Would magic is already fake.
00:59:04:16 - 00:59:18:11
Cullen
And I'd be like, Is this your card? And they'd be like, No. And I'd be like, Yeah, that's right. I was kind of playing a fake like David Blaine, kind of like where all my tricks went bad, but I had the entire time. My playlist for the music was, was the Howard Shore theme of this.
00:59:18:11 - 00:59:19:04
Speaker 3
So it's like, okay.
00:59:19:16 - 00:59:23:17
Cullen
So I was like kind of walking across the stage and, you know, doing my thing with that.
00:59:23:17 - 00:59:26:20
Speaker 3
I had a partner, I saw video of this.
00:59:27:06 - 00:59:33:16
Cullen
I don't know, there might actually be something. But then I guess the second song was Abracadabra by Steve Miller.
00:59:33:22 - 00:59:34:12
Speaker 3
Oh, my.
00:59:34:12 - 00:59:35:01
Clark
God.
00:59:35:07 - 00:59:39:02
Cullen
Oh, yeah, that's my that's my Howard Shore connection to the Ed Wood.
00:59:39:09 - 00:59:40:10
Speaker 3
I love it. I love.
00:59:40:10 - 01:00:14:21
Clark
It. Well, wonderful stuff. I mean, I think, you know, I've enjoyed revisiting film. It definitely, like, filled my heart with love for for my fellow filmmakers out there, regardless of success, external success or talent, it's a good reminder that, at least from my perspective, that, you know, we're in this for the families that we create while we do it, and we're in it for the journey and, you know, it's otherwise it's a it's a profoundly small percentage of us that get to work at the level that we aspire to.
01:00:14:22 - 01:00:22:10
Clark
Let's face it, yeah, most filmmakers aspire to work at a level that only a few hundred filmmakers actually ever get to work at.
01:00:23:00 - 01:00:28:03
Cullen
I mean, hey, even if I got to the Ed Wood level and I was remembered in 50 years, I've been happy.
01:00:28:03 - 01:00:30:13
Speaker 3
So yeah, well, there you go.
01:00:30:13 - 01:00:45:12
Clark
I mean, and enjoy the ride while you're doing it, right. Awesome. Well, thanks for picking the film. And as always, I really enjoyed our conversation. Colin, I look forward to next time. I've got to start thinking about what my film will be for our big five.
01:00:45:12 - 01:00:47:05
Cullen
Oh yes, the 50th.
01:00:47:07 - 01:00:48:13
Clark
Dun dun dah.
01:00:48:22 - 01:00:50:00
Speaker 3
So. All right, all right.
01:00:50:04 - 01:01:00:10
Clark
Well, everybody, thank you so much for hanging out with us. We hope that you enjoyed it and we will catch you on the flip side. Until then, bye bye.