Clark
Hello, everybody, and welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast Episode 35 The Thin Red Line. I guess there's actually not a the right. No, there is though. I think the red line there is of that. The thin red line from 1998, of course, Terrence Malick's film with me, as always, is Mr. Cullen McFater. What's up, dude?
00:00:32:14 - 00:00:38:04
Cullen
Not much. Yeah. I finally our our name for this podcast is appropriate. So there you go.
00:00:38:14 - 00:01:00:18
Clark
Oh, there you go. Well, I've always been quite fond of the name of our podcast, and it is especially appropriate here. But. But yeah, everybody thinks for hopping aboard the Socialist Cinema ship. I'm excited to discuss this film. It's been so long since I've seen it. This was your choice. I know this is one of your favorite films.
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Clark
So let's jump let's jump in on one of my most favorite topics that we discuss about these films, which is our personal relationship and kind of how how we discovered these films or maybe how they discovered us and and kind of what that process was like. So if you don't mind, why don't you jump on it? Yeah, sure.
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Clark
Share your personal story.
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Cullen
So I first saw this kind of early high school, and I'd seen a few other Malick movies. I'd seen Badlands and I'd seen The Tree of Life, and this was probably around 2011, 2012. And I remember not really expecting much from this going into it. I assumed kind of that Malick had done this as like a studio picture.
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Cullen
Like they were sort of like how Herzog did a few studio, like, you know, like that. There's that whole thing about, like a Herzog doing studio pictures and people think that it kind of like bastardize him. So I guess that going into it, I sort of like assumed a similar thing, which was like, that's.
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Clark
Interesting.
00:02:01:01 - 00:02:07:22
Cullen
That this wasn't Malick's movie. This was a studio film that they just, you know, it was a war movie that they were like, Let's get Malick to direct it, which was an odd choice in the first place.
00:02:07:22 - 00:02:08:17
Clark
But yeah.
00:02:09:01 - 00:02:30:15
Cullen
And of course, you know, I wasn't I couldn't have proven more wrong than when I was watching it the first time and, you know, fell in love with it. And it quickly raised the ranks to being probably my favorite Malick movie. I think this movie's, you know, beautiful visually and, you know, its themes and the way it's, you know, that subject matter, I think is handled.
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Cullen
So brilliantly and so uniquely.
00:02:33:13 - 00:02:34:09
Clark
Yeah, Yeah.
00:02:34:22 - 00:02:48:00
Cullen
And I think that there's this just dreamlike sensation that kind of carries you through the whole movie. Even in battle and in the battle scenes are really, really horrific in this movie.
00:02:48:00 - 00:02:48:19
Clark
They're very.
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Cullen
Visceral, they're very.
00:02:50:06 - 00:02:52:00
Clark
Intense and intense.
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Cullen
But there's still this this kind of odd, you know, juxtaposition of beauty within those moments. And and so I think that it's you know, it's one of those situations, I think, where it's like you think that a director would not be a fit for a war movie like this or any you know, there's numerous situations where directors have been odd choices, but they wind up being the perfect choice because of how differently they look at the genre or how the differently they look at the subject.
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Clark
Yeah, I mean, you.
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Cullen
Wouldn't such a new voice to.
00:03:21:20 - 00:03:32:20
Clark
It. Yeah. You wouldn't instantly. Yeah. You wouldn't instantly, you know, especially in 98. I mean at the time of the film's release, you know, Malick had been gone. He'd been off the scene for, I think, what, about.
00:03:32:20 - 00:03:33:23
Cullen
Seven, eight, seven years?
00:03:33:23 - 00:03:52:17
Clark
Yeah. And so I think it was kind of people were surprised that he was back directing period. And then, you know, Badlands and Days of Heaven. Right. The two films he shot before. So, yeah, not an obvious choice, but it's interesting. I mean, you came to the film kind of out of chronological order.
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Cullen
Yeah.
00:03:54:02 - 00:04:12:07
Clark
So you had already seen some of the films he had made after he had made this film. But yeah, I completely see how it would catch you off guard. I think that's so interesting that you kind of assumed or you thought, you know, that that he would just hey, he had like, sold out. He was hired to do, like, some cheesy war film or something.
00:04:12:07 - 00:04:19:12
Clark
I, I wish I could remember and I can't. I mean, I, how the film was marketed at the time, it would be interesting.
00:04:19:12 - 00:04:27:11
Cullen
It's actually really interesting to watch the trailer because I think the trailer in the marketing was very much riding the line of Saving Private Ryan, which of course came out a few months prior.
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Clark
This right.
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Cullen
And so you watch the trailer and it's all the action scenes. It's all like the explosions and the back.
00:04:35:21 - 00:04:38:07
Clark
Like it's going to be a straightforward war film. Yeah, right.
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Cullen
Which explains why there was such a kind of split audience reaction when it came out of people expecting Saving Private Ryan Part two, like Saving Private Ryan in the Pacific. They were expecting this brutal, gory, you know, which there are certainly elements of that in this. But I would say on a mass scale, this movie is not about necessarily the or at least the centerpiece of this film.
00:05:00:09 - 00:05:09:16
Cullen
It's not about the battles or the violence, but rather the effect of the violence and both on the people and nature and, you know, in typical Malick fashion, there's a.
00:05:09:16 - 00:05:31:09
Clark
Lot of yeah, I mean, it's a movie for sure. I mean, and we'll definitely get into a lot of those, you know, different aspects of how this film, how Malick handled the subject matter so much differently that you know, not to say that Saving Private Ryan doesn't have, in its own way, a meditation on the same general kind of areas that this film has, a meditation.
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Cullen
Similar wavelength.
00:05:32:07 - 00:05:52:22
Clark
But it couldn't be different in how they're handling the subject matter for sure. I could imagine, you know, if you went in thinking this is going to be a pretty straightforward forward, you know, World War Two kind of patriotic action movie. Yeah, You're going to be wondering, like, why did the film open on a crocodile or alligator? I can never I can't ever remember which ones which.
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Cullen
Don't gets a black caiman.
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Clark
But it's like, I think, why am I staring? Why am I staring at trees and birds and like.
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Cullen
Yeah, why in the middle of the battle scene is there like a dead burr or fluttering on the ground?
00:06:03:17 - 00:06:37:20
Clark
I'm like, Yeah, you're going to be confused. You might be a little bit thrown off. Well, I you know, I honestly cannot I don't have a specific recollection of the first time that I've seen this film. I was I would have been graduating college right when this film came out, and I sure that I saw it. Now, I don't I can't remember if I saw it in the theater or if I saw it maybe at home, you know, after it had come out on home release, either on cable or video, what would it have been?
00:06:37:20 - 00:06:40:09
Clark
I mean, maybe VHS or DVD?
00:06:40:09 - 00:06:43:02
Cullen
It was right at the conception of of DVD.
00:06:43:02 - 00:07:10:01
Clark
DVD coming out. Yeah. Yeah. So could have been either one. But I don't have a really strong recollection. I know that at the time I was not terribly familiar with Terrence Malick. I hadn't seen either of his previous films having been gone. I mean, he hadn't made a film basically since I had been born, So I didn't have a whole lot of, you know, kind of baggage, let's say, or preexisting kind of conditions to go into the film.
00:07:10:01 - 00:07:35:16
Clark
But I also don't know, this could just be like, I'm getting old, my memory's not great. But but I don't have a specific strong recollection of having seen the film. Now, interestingly, too, although I have seen other of his films since this one, I hadn't gone back and revisited this film. I think since, you know, the early 2000s when I first seen it, I haven't seen this film in forever.
00:07:36:15 - 00:07:45:05
Clark
I didn't even own it. I had to go and I bought The Criterion Disc, which is fantastic, by the way. I highly recommend it and it does some great supplements on that.
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Cullen
But lately director approved.
00:07:46:16 - 00:08:04:04
Clark
Like, Yeah, and it's beautiful. Yeah, it's a beautiful. I mean I wish they made it 4K but even at this 1080 it's outstanding and it's and it's correct aspect ratio I know a lot of times it's not shown in its correct aspect ratio when, when it's broadcast or streamed. I guess it's I'm old when things are no longer broadcast.
00:08:04:04 - 00:08:26:11
Clark
Right. It's it's all streaming now Everything's streaming so it's I'm an old fart What can I say. But, but yeah. So I hadn't seen it in a long time. So I mean frankly, it felt like I was watching this film for the first time. I really couldn't remember anything about this film. So for me it was like, I'm watching this for the first time, which was actually fantastic.
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Cullen
So yeah, I mean, I think that, that the every time it kind of it's long and it's Yeah.
00:08:37:11 - 00:08:38:01
Clark
Yeah. But it.
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Cullen
Doesn't, I would say at least in my opinion it, it doesn't feel it like I, I it's, is one of those movies that I sit down and watch and it's 3 hours long and it's, it's, again, it's not fast paced. There's a lot of shots of just like nature and stuff like that. And I get to the end of this movie and go like, Damn, I want to see an eight hour cut of this movie.
00:08:55:17 - 00:08:56:05
Cullen
Like, Oh, well.
00:08:56:05 - 00:09:00:23
Clark
Apparently there was night, there was close. I think apparently there was like, what, a seven hour, Five hour?
00:09:00:23 - 00:09:05:03
Cullen
Well, I would I would happily like, I would sit down and watch that any day.
00:09:05:03 - 00:09:05:13
Clark
Yeah.
00:09:05:13 - 00:09:09:08
Cullen
It's it's yeah, yeah. Something about this movie's very hypnotizing as well.
00:09:09:08 - 00:09:28:14
Clark
I think that's a good point. And I think, you know, I, I definitely think that it would be good to you know, you kind of, I think you kind of have to be in a certain mindset, right? You have to kind of be prepared to watch a Malick film and, you know, this film is no different. I think if you're distracted and it's so easy and well, I don't know, I'm going to get on my soapbox.
00:09:28:14 - 00:09:43:09
Clark
I think we all like, I have to get on a soapbox every episode for just a second. I mean, we've all got our phones with us and everybody wants to like go on IMDB real quick and check out, like, where do I know that actor from? Or, you know, you get a text message or you get a phone call or whatever the heck else.
00:09:44:06 - 00:10:02:20
Clark
It's easy to get distracted. And certainly for a three hour film, it's like easy to kind of have your attention all over the place. Some films, you can maybe do that a little bit. But this film, I feel like you really have to dedicate. Malick makes films that require you to be an active participant. You have to actively watch this film and listen to it.
00:10:04:08 - 00:10:32:11
Clark
And so you kind of I think you have to kind of go into it with a mindset of like really being prepared to give 3 hours of your attention to it. I think it demands that of you. And if you aren't there for it, I think that you could really come away from having seen this film, you know, being totally under impressed, you know, because you're going to kind of come away with like, well, there were some great action scenes and then, I don't know, there were some kind of stuff that I didn't quite understand.
00:10:32:14 - 00:10:34:03
Cullen
A lot of people talking.
00:10:34:04 - 00:10:48:19
Clark
A lot of like The Matrix. And I'm like, I'm, you know, he cuts away and kind of assumes, you know, a lot of things take place off screen, a lot of action is assumed or implied rather. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and so, you know, you're like, Hey, what the heck did I just miss, like, a whole battle scene?
00:10:48:19 - 00:10:57:02
Clark
Why are these, you know, soldiers coming back all wrecked or why is this or that? So, you know, you definitely have to give yourself over to this film. But I think.
00:10:57:02 - 00:10:59:04
Cullen
When you got to you got to kind of buy into it.
00:10:59:11 - 00:11:00:05
Clark
Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:00:05 - 00:11:15:15
Cullen
But I think I mean, it's there's no better opening shot than to, you know, to start this movie and then that alligator because I think that it or the Black Caiman or whatever. Yeah because I think that in that that score it's an arvo Arvo Part's name I replied or or Pratt.
00:11:15:23 - 00:11:16:18
Clark
I think so Yeah.
00:11:16:22 - 00:11:34:09
Cullen
But he you know that, that it's just this chord on an organ that just like grows and grows. And to me that's like Malick kind of saying, you know, okay, sit down the curtains, open it. And it's, it's this feeling of just like, okay, now you're, you're, it's, it's like just seeing the clock and a hypnosis thing.
00:11:34:09 - 00:11:38:10
Clark
It's like you're just suddenly transported. You're getting sleepy.
00:11:38:21 - 00:11:40:19
Cullen
And like, that's what that shot feels like to me.
00:11:40:23 - 00:12:07:17
Clark
And doesn't it remind you of Herzog? I mean, you know, like going back to our roots of the podcast here, you know, if it if any of you are newer listeners. But, you know, our podcast started our focus was narrowly on Herzog, and we're going to get to some of this a little more. But I mean, that was one of the first things I thought was, ha ha, you know, this totally reminds me of the iguana or the the albino alligator, you know, Totally reminded me.
00:12:08:03 - 00:12:28:01
Clark
Yeah, some of Herzog's work. And there are some really interesting parallels, actually, in differences to Herzog's work in philosophy, a film that we're going to talk about as we go. Now, some of the other aspects of this one, but I mean, let's talk a little bit about about the story and and we'll kind of branch out on to some other things.
00:12:28:01 - 00:12:59:00
Clark
But I think it's interesting that we've we've talked about it a little bit with its reception when it was released next to Saving Private Ryan. But I mean, definitely there's some interesting differences between this film and your kind of traditional Hollywood war film. And it's interesting, too, that that it's even about World War Two. I guess it was kind of strange that we had Saving Private Ryan and this film, two films about what were to come out when, you know, so many war films were actually really focused on Vietnam.
00:12:59:00 - 00:13:08:04
Clark
We've kind of gone through this whole era of whole era of World War Two films in the late forties in the fifties.
00:13:08:04 - 00:13:10:14
Cullen
You know, kind of ending with almost like a bridge too far.
00:13:10:17 - 00:13:11:17
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:13:11:17 - 00:13:15:16
Cullen
Kind of the finale of those big, you know, star studded war.
00:13:15:16 - 00:13:30:09
Clark
Epic. Right? And, you know, greatest. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. And then we but then, of course, the Vietnam War heats up and then you have coverage of the Vietnam War on television. Unlike any other war before that. And so it's very prominent.
00:13:30:09 - 00:13:33:15
Cullen
And so you had Apocalypse Now Platoon. You had all these.
00:13:33:20 - 00:13:37:01
Clark
So many casualties of war born on the 4th of July. I mean, you could.
00:13:37:01 - 00:13:37:12
Cullen
Hear we.
00:13:37:12 - 00:13:57:02
Clark
Could we could go on and on, on, on and on. So many Vietnam War effort. So we almost kind of come back, you know, after this long cycle of of films on the Vietnam War to World War Two. But, I mean, you know, clearly, Malick is treating the subject matter differently than than most other directors would treat this.
00:13:57:03 - 00:14:19:11
Cullen
And that's, again, like I I'm a big fan of Saving Private Ryan. I think it's a great film, but I agree this is such a different I would almost say that because of course, the Vietnam War was broadcast and displayed in media. So like actively while it was happening that the Vietnam, you know, Vietnam War films very rarely were about heroism or patriotism.
00:14:19:12 - 00:14:19:22
Clark
Yeah.
00:14:20:11 - 00:14:31:01
Cullen
Whereas World War two films very much were. And so I think that it's almost to me, this is Malick doing a World War two film in the style of a lot of and I don't mean like these these stylistically, but.
00:14:31:01 - 00:14:32:13
Clark
I mean in the comedically.
00:14:32:20 - 00:14:34:13
Cullen
The way that he looks at the war.
00:14:34:14 - 00:14:34:22
Clark
Right.
00:14:35:00 - 00:14:38:00
Cullen
Is not heroic anyway. It's not and it's, you.
00:14:38:00 - 00:14:38:12
Clark
Know, not at all.
00:14:38:12 - 00:14:55:17
Cullen
A criticism of like, you know, the soldiers in the cells or something like that. But it's very much a criticism of there's this entire theme that just continues through it about about like that. It's about property that that, you know, the amount of times that somebody will go out to do something completely meaningless and then get shot for doing it.
00:14:55:17 - 00:14:57:09
Cullen
And it's like, you know.
00:14:57:14 - 00:15:35:11
Clark
Well, it's a meditation on violence and meditation on the origin and kind of the necessity or, you know, or asking the questions of of mortality and violence. And, you know, what in the world, you know, what is it about the human condition? What is it about human nature that we find ourselves in these in these absurd? I mean, you know, Malick has a certain detachment sometimes to these, you know, in his in this film where you know, it's it really illustrates the absurdity of a lot of our fears and futility and just the waste of life.
00:15:36:12 - 00:15:50:21
Cullen
And he does something brilliantly, too, which is just this this every single death feels impactful. And so, again, you compare it to like the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan when they're storming the beaches. And it's you know, there's a lot of death. It's very gruesome, it's very impactful.
00:15:50:21 - 00:15:51:14
Clark
Graphic in that.
00:15:51:15 - 00:16:07:10
Cullen
Moment. And but I would almost say Malick takes it to another level of every single death is like a punch in the gut in this film. And, you know, every single time someone dies, you get a reaction shot of another person, not not being sad and crying into.
00:16:07:10 - 00:16:07:13
Clark
It.
00:16:07:19 - 00:16:10:18
Cullen
But just looking at them and being like, Oh, there they go. That's it. That's like.
00:16:10:19 - 00:16:11:05
Clark
I mean, it's.
00:16:11:05 - 00:16:12:06
Cullen
It's nice that's there. Done.
00:16:12:06 - 00:16:32:05
Clark
Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, and it's interesting. I think that he he does something really unique here and I think he kind of accomplishes you know there's two sides to this On the one side I agree with you. You know you have these characters die now that it's a huge ensemble cast, just, you know, a huge ensemble cast and a huge ensemble cast of people that we know.
00:16:32:05 - 00:16:47:08
Clark
I mean, many of these actors were people that someone would recognize. So, yes, they carry a certain amount of recognition in with them, which I think is actually really important because there are so many characters we don't get to spend a lot of time with them. There's not a lot of back story, there's not a lot of character development.
00:16:47:08 - 00:17:12:10
Clark
So we don't know these men and and it's predominant. It's this film is basically filled with only men, but we don't know them. So I think it's an important casting choice that he made where the vast majority of these characters are known actors. So I think you bring it like, for example, Woody Harrelson, Steph, we he has a he has a very, you know, intense and intimate death scene there.
00:17:12:10 - 00:17:15:05
Cullen
And again, arguably meaningless.
00:17:15:15 - 00:17:33:07
Clark
It will. And certainly because it's just an accident, he dies because it's an accident, actually. But but my point was just that had had we not had a preexisting relationship with the actor. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I don't know that we would have had any time to relate to him so such that we would care about his death.
00:17:33:07 - 00:17:59:10
Clark
But we do. And I think a part of that a part of that is because Malick cast name actors now. Now, it's interesting, though, that we have this right, this that, where we have these individual deaths and they're intimate and they're intense and we feel them. But there's also kind of this sense that there is no single character that that all of these men are just one big character or consciousness.
00:17:59:10 - 00:18:25:13
Clark
I got a sense of and and and I don't know how these two things kind of exist at the same time, but but somehow Malick was able to do that. And, and I don't know that it lends itself like a very you know, it's almost like they're individuals, but yet they're also parts of a consciousness. And I think there's even some narration, some voiceover that kind of speaks, you know, ask a question about are we all parts of one large consciousness, right?
00:18:25:20 - 00:18:38:21
Clark
And so it's almost like humanity as a whole, like is just kind of our violence is just turned in on ourselves and we're killing ourselves and it's just humanity. Yeah, I don't know if that ever if. Did that come across to you at all?
00:18:38:22 - 00:18:55:16
Cullen
No, totally. I mean there's I think it's one of the points you made that's really interesting, too, is this whole idea that it's like there's this individual basis in this macro basis. And, you know, there's this whole theme throughout the movie of or it's a recurring kind of motif, almost like water that they need water. They need water, the water.
00:18:55:16 - 00:19:12:06
Cullen
And and it's again, it's one of those things that it's like not really many other war films do that or show somebody waking up in the morning in the mud. And this realization that, oh, look, you know, I'm still here, goddammit. Like, yeah, it's like that, right? There's that kid that wakes up and he's covered in the mud because they've been sleeping all night.
00:19:12:20 - 00:19:34:11
Cullen
And he just like that just, you know, there's no, like, vocalization of it. It's just that he looks around him and you can just see on his face that he's like, he probably had a dream where he was very far away and back home or something, and he's woken up back in this hell. And so there's yeah, there's this like, there's this kind of again, this dichotomy of humanizing it and making it really personal and making it very much.
00:19:34:11 - 00:19:44:02
Cullen
You know, you go into the flashbacks and memories of many of these characters and learn about their their relationships and their their, you know, in some cases divorce and stuff like that.
00:19:44:06 - 00:19:44:12
Clark
Right?
00:19:44:21 - 00:20:01:08
Cullen
But on the same time, at the same time, it's very much used as sort of, I would say like a blank slate to say that these can be applied to anybody. It's, you know, it's it's very much something that's like saying that this huge squad or this platoon of troops is is very much a.
00:20:01:10 - 00:20:02:06
Clark
Is all of us.
00:20:02:12 - 00:20:30:18
Cullen
It's all of us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, and it really challenges the whole idea of like the necessity of war and, and death. And it I think it doesn't offer an answer and intentionally so it doesn't offer an answer. But it really begs the question of like, you know, there's always this line and very much in association with World War Two, especially of like, you know, there's no good in war, but there is good and why we fight wars that that it was, you know, that everything that happened was a necessity, that it's necessary because we had to fight, you know.
00:20:31:08 - 00:20:32:19
Cullen
Well, it's interesting survival, right?
00:20:32:19 - 00:20:54:08
Clark
I mean, but this film doesn't even it's interesting, though, that there's none of that context in this film, Right. I mean, in so many of these, especially World War Two. Right. Because World War Two is considered kind of, you know, the necessary war. Right. Obviously, Vietnam and many of the battles in the Middle East. That's you know, it's not no consensus whatsoever and generally kind of a consensus in another direction.
00:20:54:08 - 00:21:04:12
Clark
But, yes, for World War two, I mean, it's you know, it's one of the most it's a recent war, a relatively recent war where we by far and away have the most kind of moral authority, a.
00:21:04:17 - 00:21:05:03
Cullen
Clear.
00:21:05:03 - 00:21:43:03
Clark
Good ally, CIA. Right. And which is often not the case. Of course, not to say that the allied forces didn't contribute, you know, horrific atrocities as well. Of course, that that happens in war. But but all that context is gone, though. I mean, you don't have you don't have anything here where there's there's no context that the Japanese are horrible or that this sits that that this movie sits inside of a larger issue of, you know, the European conflict or Hitler or genocide of Jews or any of these things, you know, And the Japanese are hardly even represented as humans, frankly.
00:21:43:17 - 00:21:54:00
Clark
They're not even, you know, Malick doesn't even translate their dialog. So we don't even know what they're saying. Unless you speak Japanese, you can understand Japanese. And there's some interesting.
00:21:54:00 - 00:21:55:16
Cullen
Moments with that that we'll get into later.
00:21:55:17 - 00:21:58:06
Clark
Yeah, Yeah. But we don't you know, we don't follow any of that.
00:21:58:06 - 00:21:59:03
Cullen
Watching the film.
00:21:59:03 - 00:22:18:02
Clark
Yeah, there's no there's none of that. None of the Japanese are personalized or humanized in any way. We get to see some of their suffering. And so I guess in that sense there's a little bit of, of humanization. But I mean, it's, you know, so there is none of that context. And I get a sense that it's almost, you know, maybe more so than a meditation on war.
00:22:18:02 - 00:22:44:19
Clark
I almost get a sense that it's like a meditation on just that our own mortality and and kind of that we're all marching toward this, this ultimate destination that, you know, no matter what you do, you've got to go there. And, you know, you may be able to, you know, like you may be able to refuse, you know, a command here or there and kind of sidestep a few things on the way.
00:22:44:19 - 00:23:00:20
Clark
But ultimately. Right, it's like you're going to ultimately have to climb up that hill and you're ultimately going to have to to die. And that's kind of, you know, obviously, we all struggle with that in our own ways. It's kind of the recognition and meditation on our own mortality. But and which yeah.
00:23:01:01 - 00:23:03:12
Cullen
It's it's just very grounded, I.
00:23:03:12 - 00:23:03:20
Clark
Think.
00:23:04:00 - 00:23:15:19
Cullen
Yeah, it it's, it's like you said, it's, it's, it doesn't deal with the greater context. You know, there's no moment of people running into battle with an American flag and planting it down on the ground. You know?
00:23:15:19 - 00:23:16:05
Clark
Yeah.
00:23:16:13 - 00:23:24:14
Cullen
Like even I mean, and even, you know, the opening of Saving Private Ryan, the kind of prolog of Saving Private Ryan, where it starts with it's very much a, you know.
00:23:24:18 - 00:23:26:08
Clark
A patient Johnny idea.
00:23:26:08 - 00:23:42:18
Cullen
Of the American sacrifice right there is. Whereas this one there's not much mention of like why this is being done. You know, like there's the specific battle things of like we need to take this island so that we can get to the next island and hop all the way up to the, you know, the Japanese mainland.
00:23:42:18 - 00:23:46:12
Clark
But but it's just a tactical or strategic. Yeah, it's it's all just about it's not.
00:23:46:14 - 00:24:13:20
Cullen
And it's and it's almost intentionally banal. Like it's, it's, it's almost I would say that the that that's kind of what the movie's trying to emphasize is, is this question of like, you know, why is it so, you know, deeply within our nature to send a bunch of people to their deaths for And then there's this direct line that Sean Penn says a few times, which is after, you know, a man dies in his arms and he of like it's just about property.
00:24:13:20 - 00:24:14:03
Cullen
Like, that's.
00:24:14:03 - 00:24:17:03
Clark
Just about property. So it's about a kill. It's about. And so again.
00:24:17:03 - 00:24:40:11
Cullen
It's like it's this examination of the Second World War unlike any other, you know, especially Western Second World War movies, where it's very much stripping away this whole idea of of like the what are we sacrificing for and what are we. And like, there's yeah, there's no newsreels of of Pearl Harbor. There's no you know it's there's never this moment of like we're going out to face the great evil.
00:24:40:11 - 00:25:00:18
Cullen
It's just very much this I think, what makes the movie very haunting in a lot of ways is how matter of fact it is. Yeah. That, that, you know, there's then I think again, there's no moment that better emphasizes that one than when you know, Jared Leto was very short moment in the movie but he sends these two guys forward to just basically peer over a hill to see what's there.
00:25:00:18 - 00:25:16:04
Cullen
And then they get shot down. And he's just sort of like Jared cuts back to Jared Leto and he's just looking at where they were. And there's no it doesn't suddenly break out into violence and suddenly everyone's oh, no. And screaming, yelling. He just looks at them and it's like, well, we know. I mean, that was their use.
00:25:16:04 - 00:25:20:08
Cullen
And the guys looking at each other before they go over, they're like, get we're we're walking to our deaths.
00:25:20:08 - 00:25:24:07
Clark
Yeah. There's really, again, unavoidable fact.
00:25:24:07 - 00:25:28:06
Cullen
It's not there's no cheesiness to it.
00:25:28:06 - 00:25:29:05
Clark
I know and I don't.
00:25:29:05 - 00:25:30:06
Cullen
I don't mind cheesiness you.
00:25:30:06 - 00:25:32:14
Clark
Know it makes it so much scarier to me. Yeah, it's.
00:25:32:16 - 00:25:33:21
Cullen
Very matter of fact.
00:25:33:23 - 00:26:06:11
Clark
It's really disturbing. It actually is so much more disturbing than, you know, when people try to like, you know, make a melodrama about. Yes, that's a good word for it. Yeah. And a lot of times that's you know, and it's kind of an inclination because as a filmmaker, you might have this tendency or an actor, performer or writer, you know, you might have this tendency to be like, okay, you know, I really want to emphasize this, this horrific loss that this death, you know, and you get like the gnashing of teeth and crying and flailing and, you know, all these kind of things.
00:26:06:11 - 00:26:32:18
Clark
But it's so much more haunting and so much more impactful when that loss of life, I mean, because it's like an indifference, right? And that indifference kind of is representative of the indifference of the universe to all of our lives. I mean, thousands of people are dying every day. I don't know how many. 100,000 are probably dying every day of all kinds of thing from from old age after a as comfortable life lived to, you know, a child starving to death somewhere.
00:26:32:18 - 00:26:33:22
Cullen
Or near to homicide.
00:26:34:05 - 00:27:04:18
Clark
Or homicidal violence and war and genocide. And it's just this like not to not to get to to doubt on things, but it's just an overwhelming indifference. And I get a sense that that, you know, at least my and everybody will have a different interpretation. But that's kind of a a sense that I get. Malick does a really good job of using this World War to this story and World War Two to kind of illustrate this larger aspect of just the indifference that the smallness sometimes of our lives.
00:27:05:21 - 00:27:09:08
Clark
And it's yeah, it's kind of overwhelming. It's yeah.
00:27:09:09 - 00:27:28:04
Cullen
Yeah. I'd say that again, just a contrast with with Saving Private Ryan that like there's horrifying moments Saving Private Ryan of violence and, and of of brutality and things like that. But I'd say that this this movie I think moves me much more because of its matter of fact is because it strips away the the the like you said the melodrama of of.
00:27:28:07 - 00:27:28:11
Clark
Yeah.
00:27:28:22 - 00:27:38:23
Cullen
You know what you don't get the moments of you know, the conversations in Saving Private Ryan of humanizing these characters and trying to make them like worth it so that when they die they, you know.
00:27:39:00 - 00:27:39:13
Clark
Feeling.
00:27:39:13 - 00:27:58:04
Cullen
In something and it's and it's, it's meaningful. Whereas this movie really doesn't bother with that. It just and in a very real way, in a very real sense. And you get, you know, the moment of when characters cry in this movie. The camera just kind of sits there unwaveringly and watches them. And there's that moment of the guy crying on the little stoop in the in the rain.
00:27:58:04 - 00:28:02:11
Cullen
And he's it's like it's like a five, you know, probably minute long shot of him. Just like.
00:28:03:08 - 00:28:30:02
Clark
Yeah, there's great confidence. Yeah. I mean, clearly I mean, Malick is just like, goes without saying but I'll say it because you know I mean that hit the confidence that he has and in the end and in the story that he wants to tell and the takes are really it's quite amazing. And I think, you know, I think too, it's like this the poetry that exists in this film, you know, that the voiceover narration that comes from Malick, you know, and there's also a visual poetry to write.
00:28:30:02 - 00:28:54:23
Clark
There's a lot of like setting of tone. There is the using of this narration and the poetry. They're combined with a lot of this, this visual poetry that kind of puts you like you would like. You started off the podcast by saying that it kind of puts you in this meditative or hypnotized state, right? And I think it really does an extraordinary job of of allowing then for these moments to really hit you.
00:28:55:22 - 00:29:09:07
Clark
It opens you up to the experience, so to speak. Maybe it closes some people off. That's possible. But I mean, I think its intention is to when you connect with it, it opens you up so that you kind of roar to it in a sense, right?
00:29:09:07 - 00:29:09:22
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah.
00:29:10:06 - 00:29:31:17
Clark
Is my sense. I mean, let let's talk a little bit about that. I mean, you know, you talked about the story aspects. I think, you know, obviously the cinematography of this film, you know, the visual nature of Malick's films are, you know, with so many people focus on and are kind of instantly like, you obvious to somebody. John Toll is the cinematographer here?
00:29:31:21 - 00:29:34:01
Clark
Yeah, the guy's done a million things.
00:29:34:03 - 00:29:35:12
Cullen
See, A ton of stuff.
00:29:35:16 - 00:29:40:12
Clark
A ton of stuff. But I mean, really outstanding work here. Yes.
00:29:40:12 - 00:29:41:22
Cullen
It's a beautiful, beautiful movie. Yeah.
00:29:41:22 - 00:30:06:16
Clark
And I mean, so just, you know, a little bit of this, right? 35 millimeter film, of course, anamorphic. There's a lot of Steadicam. There's I want to note that we're going to just focus on technical stuff. But this is pretty interesting to me because I was curious while I was watching it. I'm trying to think, okay, well, I know they didn't set a bunch of Dolly track in these, like rolling hills with four feet of grass and, you know, a lot of uneven terrain.
00:30:06:16 - 00:30:21:12
Clark
How did they get all this really smooth, beautiful dolly like camerawork? And and what they did actually, what I learned is that they used a really large crane. But instead of using that for any kind of elevation, they would actually use that to kind of sweep.
00:30:21:21 - 00:30:23:11
Cullen
Yeah, for a lateral movement. Yeah.
00:30:23:11 - 00:30:46:13
Clark
And it was such a such a long crane that the arc was shallow so that they could cheated, such that it looked like you were dealing in a perfectly linear path, straight path, as opposed to an arc which is, you know, of course they pushed and pulled it as well. But it really is amazing, especially when you know, you're following the soldiers in the grass and it's able to just to just float right in there.
00:30:46:13 - 00:31:16:04
Clark
It's incredible. Yeah, Obviously a lot of Steadicam. A big part of how Mallet directed this film. There was a lot of improvization, from what I understand, and they improvised not just dialog, but blocking, which because they use so much natural light, they could do that. So instead of actors having to hit these very specific marks because the, you know, everything's been lit a specific way using almost all natural light outdoors, their actors were often able to just go wherever they wanted.
00:31:17:00 - 00:31:18:08
Clark
Yeah, which is amazing.
00:31:19:23 - 00:31:40:20
Cullen
I think that it's also the movie that really kind of solidified Malick's style. You know, if you go back and watch Days of Heaven, there's there's, you know, you can see that he's starting to kind of get to the point that he will arrive at. But because he took 20 years between the movies, there's you know, and did no directing between that of of major motion pictures.
00:31:42:17 - 00:32:02:16
Cullen
He you know, this movie really is the first one that you watch and you go like, okay, this is still the style that Malick is doing. Like, this is still how he directs. Whereas you go back and watch Badlands and Days of Heaven, it's very much more grounded, I'd say, in traditional traffic sense. Shot traditionally. Yeah, lots of, you know, not so much handheld, not so much just motion.
00:32:02:20 - 00:32:21:18
Cullen
Mostly really beautiful still, but but very traditionally shot. Whereas this movie really opened him up, I think, too. And perhaps that was because of the new technologies, the lighter cameras, the, you know, Steadicam, having become such a big thing in the eighties. Yeah. That he was finally able to really embrace the style that perhaps he'd been wanting to do for so long.
00:32:22:18 - 00:32:25:06
Cullen
But yeah, this movie really, the camera really floats.
00:32:26:00 - 00:32:28:01
Clark
Yep. The very dynamic there.
00:32:28:01 - 00:32:48:08
Cullen
And there's, you know, the beauty of anamorphic too, is that you can get you can use longer lenses like 50 millimeter lenses, but you still have the width, the horizontal width of the 20 millimeter or 25 on a 50 year anamorphic lens. So you're you still can frame these close ups of characters that look like they're on a 50 millimeter.
00:32:48:08 - 00:32:54:00
Cullen
But at the same time, when you use that 50 millimeter to shoot a a landscape, that it becomes this beautiful wide.
00:32:54:00 - 00:33:14:00
Clark
And you get you know, you get the nice deep focus. I mean, this movie at pretty much everything is in focus, the entire film. And you're right, you've got this, you know, you'll have an actor in the foreground just three feet away from the lens and then, you know, and you've got an actor. I don't you know, I don't even, you know, hundreds of feet out in in on a hill or in a field in the background.
00:33:14:00 - 00:33:35:18
Clark
And they're in focus, really deep focus and. Yeah, really, really beautiful. I'm especially intrigued by the lighting. The use of natural light is just as even in the interiors is it's just it's exquisite. It's one of the best looking films I've seen.
00:33:36:12 - 00:33:58:22
Cullen
Yeah. It's just I think that the thing is too, that it really is a highlight of one of my favorite cinematographic styles, which is accentuation, which is not just putting lights to light a scene and to make things look cool, but rather putting lights where the light would naturally come from. And I think that that's really and, you know, there are plenty of movies like I.
00:33:58:22 - 00:33:59:23
Clark
Would say motivates Russian.
00:33:59:23 - 00:34:01:12
Cullen
Ism is quite the opposite where it's.
00:34:01:12 - 00:34:01:18
Clark
Right.
00:34:02:00 - 00:34:09:07
Cullen
Which I like. I like the style of that too. But for this movie it just really works super well that yeah, it doesn't look lit well.
00:34:09:07 - 00:34:33:07
Clark
I think the focus I mean, if we think about Malick's focus on nature and how vital that is. Yes, the images, you know, I mean that's clearly something that he is that that's that's a major part of what he's trying to express. Yeah. And you know, if you've got all this unmotivated, unnatural light that clearly I think you could see how that's going to detract from something that's clearly so important to him.
00:34:33:19 - 00:34:34:06
Clark
Yeah.
00:34:34:19 - 00:34:47:19
Cullen
And, you know, to get it to sound to the movie, The Criterion at least has a little like not warning, but little labeling to play that. So the director wants this movie played loud. I love I think it's great.
00:34:47:19 - 00:34:48:06
Clark
I love.
00:34:48:09 - 00:35:09:05
Cullen
It. And then I did I actually watched it. This is the first time I've done this with the movie, but I just got these new headphones. Yeah. Which are like, incredible. The sound depth of them is just is beautiful. But and I, I plugged those into my you know, I use my PlayStation four as my Blu ray player and I plugged them into the controller so I could listen to all of it, like, rather than listening to it for my speakers.
00:35:09:07 - 00:35:10:00
Clark
Right.
00:35:10:00 - 00:35:17:09
Cullen
Just listen to it through these headphones. And it was remarkable. Like it was such an experience that, you know, I now know how I want to watch this movie.
00:35:17:09 - 00:35:23:08
Clark
Yeah, that's awesome. I, I thought I was going to have the neighbors come over to my house. There you go. Yeah, I.
00:35:23:22 - 00:35:25:12
Cullen
I mean, it is a great movie for playing.
00:35:25:14 - 00:35:42:00
Clark
Oh, my gosh. In the low end on this is I mean, yeah, obviously with the battle scenes and things, the low end is just ridiculous. Yeah, I was watching it in the day because I knew that it would I wouldn't be able to watch it at night like this. But yeah, I use the, like surround sound. So I had it you, I had a creator.
00:35:42:01 - 00:35:59:02
Clark
I followed Craig. I was like, okay, if the cops come to my house, I can like point to, you know, the section on the Criterion Collection where it says like, you know, listen to this, I've got the liability. I've got. Hey, hey, guys, guys, guys, what can I say? It's out of my hands. I mean, look, Malik says listen to this loud.
00:35:59:02 - 00:35:59:22
Clark
What do you want me to do?
00:35:59:22 - 00:36:00:15
Cullen
I don't want him to show.
00:36:00:15 - 00:36:09:18
Clark
Up my house, right? I mean, come on, guys, you can't blame me. But. But, yeah, I mean, and I think, again, it you know, there's so many scenes where those nature sounds are so important.
00:36:10:06 - 00:36:10:19
Cullen
To.
00:36:11:02 - 00:36:35:21
Clark
The texture that kind of like the canvas, so to speak, that the film sits on this sound, this bed of sound is so important in that of course. Yeah. I mean, the action scenes are just like it's bombastic. Yeah, bombastic and active and amazing. But then you've also got I mean, you know, Hans Zimmer did some I mean, I think that he ended up making, if I'm not mistaken, something like three or 4 hours of music of.
00:36:35:22 - 00:36:36:04
Cullen
Was.
00:36:36:10 - 00:36:43:20
Clark
Only a small piece of which is used in the film. Yeah. And he didn't do the entire score. But yeah.
00:36:43:20 - 00:36:53:16
Cullen
A lot of it is preexisting stuff. But yeah, Zimmer's funny. So Hans Zimmer is probably, I would say, the most popular film composer these days.
00:36:54:04 - 00:36:55:12
Clark
One of these. Yeah, yeah.
00:36:55:12 - 00:36:58:23
Cullen
Yeah, sure. Yeah. He's, he's definitely, he's especially with younger people, you know. He does.
00:36:59:00 - 00:36:59:05
Clark
Yeah.
00:36:59:15 - 00:37:10:03
Cullen
He's done a lot. I've never been a huge like I don't think that he's you know this isn't to say that he's bad it just it's just that his this, his style of of composition isn't really.
00:37:10:03 - 00:37:10:20
Clark
Just not your.
00:37:10:20 - 00:37:21:04
Cullen
Favorite. It's not my it's not my cup of tea. However, I will say that there are there are some Hans Zimmer scores that I really do love and this is one of them. Like the music. I have the soundtrack of this on my phone.
00:37:21:04 - 00:37:24:12
Clark
There's a few moments. How much of it was in the film, roughly, say about.
00:37:25:04 - 00:37:26:08
Cullen
50 to 60%.
00:37:26:08 - 00:37:27:09
Clark
Ish. Okay, okay.
00:37:27:12 - 00:37:51:09
Cullen
But I also think that the soundtrack is is not the full for it's obviously not the 44 hours that he wrote. It's just pretty much taken from the moments that are in the movie. But the there's a lot of it in there that does sort of sound like that kind of classic Zimmer That is that is very like, I think the moment when they're finally and they've captured the hill and they're running in and it's a little bit too forward for my tastes.
00:37:51:15 - 00:38:02:15
Cullen
But there's also like my favorite moment in the movie is that beautiful montage with the song is called Light. And if you you know, if you watch, listen to podcast and after this, I would highly recommend you.
00:38:02:16 - 00:38:03:16
Clark
Check it out. This song.
00:38:03:18 - 00:38:28:07
Cullen
It's a really beautiful song and it's this montage near the near the end of the movie, and they're just the montage is so beautiful that that the way that it's shot and the way that it's edited together with the voiceover, but also the, the music is really incredible and it is one of those moments that like really kind of almost wells you up, at least in my case, was really, really it's an emotional, emotional moment.
00:38:28:07 - 00:38:40:22
Cullen
It's it's played over that moment actually the the soldier crying in the rain what is that still shot of him crying. I think it's just a really, really beautiful moment. So, yeah, the soundtrack I think is great and wonderfully.
00:38:40:22 - 00:38:46:14
Clark
Now, does it have any of the chanting? I know there is the yes, There's a few moments of Melanesian like choral songs.
00:38:46:14 - 00:38:47:10
Cullen
So that was actually.
00:38:47:10 - 00:38:48:06
Clark
Recorded for.
00:38:48:06 - 00:39:07:18
Cullen
The movie. There were preexisting songs and chants, but they rerecorded it with a choir. Gotcha for the film. And so there's a lot of beautiful stuff like that. But no, I think that the yeah, I think I really do enjoy the soundtrack for the most part. And it never, you know, I say for the most part with a big Asterix which is that it never, I think detracts from the film.
00:39:07:18 - 00:39:26:09
Cullen
Like I don't think there's a point in the movie where I'm like, Okay, cool it down. So I think I think Malick is very smart, unintentional, in where he uses, you know, music and where he doesn't. And I think that he does a really great job of balancing that in this film of of, you know, where should music sound hopeful and inspiring?
00:39:26:09 - 00:39:29:22
Cullen
Where should it sound, you know questioning and where should it sound?
00:39:29:22 - 00:39:31:06
Clark
And not too on the nose, though.
00:39:31:06 - 00:39:32:02
Cullen
Yeah, not exactly.
00:39:32:05 - 00:39:40:17
Clark
Over the top, which a lot of war movies get into that kind of over the top kind of patria, you know, patriotic kind of, you know.
00:39:41:06 - 00:39:55:23
Cullen
You get there's no trumpets in this movie. There's of brass. Yeah. There's yeah, there's none of that. Like because it's something that you very often do here in in war films where it's like they try to almost mimic the sound of like military music, which is what, a marching, a marching band. There is a lot of.
00:39:55:23 - 00:39:57:23
Clark
You've got like a drummer. Yeah, yeah.
00:39:58:02 - 00:39:58:19
Cullen
Where there's none.
00:39:58:19 - 00:40:00:07
Clark
Of the snares. Yeah, the.
00:40:00:07 - 00:40:27:15
Cullen
Music, much like the cinematography and much like the direction is very hypnotizing. It's very much moment again. You start the movie with the autopilot that just that just one chord on an organ and it's like this incredible this mesmerizing just cue of music that just like I think just like shrinks you down into this and brings you really into the world of the movie, which I think is a really brilliant way to start the film.
00:40:29:01 - 00:40:35:06
Cullen
So, yeah, I'm, you know, I think the soundscape of this movie, just both, including music and sound design, is really.
00:40:35:06 - 00:40:35:15
Clark
Yeah.
00:40:35:18 - 00:40:44:16
Cullen
Fantastically done it. There's something about it that yeah, it again and I don't even mean to, I keep comparing it to Saving Private Ryan, but.
00:40:44:16 - 00:40:47:11
Clark
Again, we'll have to read title this episode.
00:40:47:11 - 00:40:49:21
Cullen
Like, yeah, I mean we almost should have watched them back to back but.
00:40:49:21 - 00:40:50:06
Clark
Yeah, yeah.
00:40:50:12 - 00:41:09:06
Cullen
But I think that it is just because of course it is. It is a, you know, an apt comparison as they came out so close together and they're very similar movies on very basic levels. But you don't get that you know again I like I love John Williams as well but you don't get the very sentimental John Williams sounding music in this.
00:41:09:06 - 00:41:14:05
Cullen
It's it's all very much it's tragic I think is if I had to describe the score.
00:41:14:05 - 00:41:14:16
Clark
Okay.
00:41:14:16 - 00:41:34:10
Cullen
One way it's is that it's more it's more so mourning the tragedy of violence in general rather than trying to heighten the sacrifice or something like that. Like it's more about the tragedy of it. And very much, again, in line with the rest of the film and the themes of the rest of the film, isn't there?
00:41:35:04 - 00:41:54:15
Clark
I don't know if I'm going to go out on a little limb here. It's not something that I know much about, but I'm intrigued and I'm curious if you have any understanding of what this is. But was there like a weird instrument that was part of this soundtrack mix? Like, like a strange, like steel beams stringed instrument?
00:41:54:15 - 00:41:56:21
Cullen
Yeah, That was like the it's the ticking sound that I.
00:41:57:10 - 00:42:02:16
Clark
Yeah. What? Yeah, what is it called? Like a cosmic beam or something. I'm not sure exactly what.
00:42:02:22 - 00:42:07:13
Cullen
What the name of it is, but I do notice it. Yeah. Because they do on the Criterion also have a section where they, you know.
00:42:07:14 - 00:42:27:00
Clark
Yeah. Dedicate to the music and I think us and I think that's a huge part of, of the unique sound of the soundtrack in the film. And I have no experience or with this instrument or kind of no understand it really, but I think it's something like, it's like a like a 1213 something long steel like channel beam.
00:42:27:00 - 00:42:56:13
Clark
Yeah. That strong with these, these steel wires or something that has like pickups like on an electric guitar or something. I mean it's a, it's a super wild instrument. I don't know anything about the history of it or anything, but I just know that it was used in several places in the film to really give like a, you know, kind of, you know, poetic kind of feel to them that kind of correlates really nicely with the poetic imagery and narration.
00:42:56:13 - 00:42:59:00
Clark
But anyway, I was just curious if you knew anything else about that.
00:42:59:00 - 00:43:01:04
Cullen
But yeah, no, I'm not sure specifically, but I do.
00:43:01:04 - 00:43:01:17
Clark
It's wild.
00:43:01:17 - 00:43:06:18
Cullen
Yeah, a ton of Yeah, let's get into maybe performances and cast too.
00:43:06:20 - 00:43:09:05
Clark
Gosh. Yeah. Because boy, is there a lot of casting.
00:43:09:05 - 00:43:14:23
Cullen
Amos movie for. Yeah, there's a lot of cast this movie, but it's also a very famous movie for a lot of cut parts.
00:43:15:01 - 00:43:16:04
Clark
Like a lot of people who are.
00:43:16:04 - 00:43:17:19
Cullen
Completely cut from the movie. Like, it's.
00:43:17:19 - 00:43:18:15
Clark
Amazing.
00:43:18:15 - 00:43:35:16
Cullen
What's Major Brody's in it a little bit, but, you know, just as a as a kind of, I guess, to get us started, Adrien Brody was was cast as the main character, who's the main character in the book and didn't realize that he had been cut down to only I think it's like a minute of screen time with no lines except for mean one line.
00:43:35:16 - 00:43:40:14
Cullen
When he says at the end, I think he tells them that they're coming and we have got to get out of here. Yeah, because only line in the film.
00:43:40:19 - 00:44:03:21
Clark
Almost at background I mean almost a featured background player. Yes, apparently. I mean, he was pretty upset by that. I can certainly understand that. I mean, this is before, you know, and yeah, Brody's breakout pianist and, you know, he thought this was going to be, you know, his big break. And, you know, you put in I don't know how many months of work into this and it you know, it sounds like it was a pretty challenging shoot.
00:44:03:21 - 00:44:17:14
Clark
You're on location. It's pretty miserable. I've worked hard, no doubt. And to have that cut by I mean, he's not the only one you also have Mickey Rourke. His his role was completely cut to the point where, I mean, he's not in it at all.
00:44:17:14 - 00:44:25:19
Cullen
And he says, I know you can watch this. There's there's the deleted scenes where you can see his role. But he says that it was, you know, he considers it the most the best acting he's ever done, that it was like.
00:44:25:22 - 00:44:28:00
Clark
You will never see him once he's ever. Yeah, it's a shame.
00:44:28:09 - 00:44:42:15
Cullen
But you can yeah. If you look up the deleted scenes on YouTube, you can find it. And he is very good. I mean, it is a very good scene but, but yeah, this is again, it's kind of a famous movie. You know, Billy Bob Malick is sort of famous for this as well where. Oh, yeah, Billy Bob Thornton, first.
00:44:42:15 - 00:44:49:22
Clark
Of all, was a different narration. Billy Bob Thornton did 3 hours of narration, apparently for this film, all completely.
00:44:49:22 - 00:44:50:18
Cullen
He's not in it at all.
00:44:50:23 - 00:45:03:11
Clark
Not at all. Bill Pullman completely cut. None of it at all. And then and then you have other other actors who, although they weren't entirely cut out, definitely had their roles minimized. I think you mentioned George Clooney. Yeah.
00:45:03:17 - 00:45:04:17
Cullen
Fonzi, Riley.
00:45:04:17 - 00:45:20:21
Clark
Reilly, Jonsi Reilly. I mean, you know, the actors that I think most filmmakers would kill to have, you know, be the lead in their films. And these guys are cut down, either completely removed or almost entirely removed. But then of the people that we have left, I mean, it's like a who's who, right? You've got.
00:45:20:21 - 00:45:21:07
Cullen
Yes.
00:45:21:18 - 00:45:31:19
Clark
You know, Sean Penn, Nick Nolte, John Travolta, Jim Caviezel, Woody Harrelson, John Savage. I mean, it just goes on and on. It just.
00:45:32:13 - 00:45:47:07
Cullen
John Cusack. Yeah. John I think again, I and I'm a big fan of John Cusack, but like it, this movie also, even though these are all really like pretty much everyone one, the movie has kind of a bit part with the exceptions of a few people, right? Like John Cusack doesn't have a big part.
00:45:47:18 - 00:45:49:07
Clark
But he can't get.
00:45:49:07 - 00:45:59:03
Cullen
These things where you you just realize how brilliant a lot of these actors are. Like John Cusack, people think of a lot of it's kind of it's just sort of like a mid-level actor. These days. And I think that's.
00:45:59:15 - 00:46:01:09
Clark
Not a Chris Trump in the eighties, dude.
00:46:01:12 - 00:46:02:18
Cullen
Oh, and I love a.
00:46:02:18 - 00:46:04:07
Clark
Lot of his older stuff, but not.
00:46:04:07 - 00:46:09:05
Cullen
Like in terms of modern context. Like you look at the movies that he's done in the past two decades and.
00:46:09:05 - 00:46:09:15
Clark
You know.
00:46:09:15 - 00:46:11:00
Cullen
They're not necessarily these.
00:46:11:10 - 00:46:12:08
Clark
Lower profile.
00:46:12:12 - 00:46:30:09
Cullen
Incredible performances. And and I think that that is is a really big disservice because his performance, even just a moment when he's asking for water for his troops here and the way that he again, like he's not angry, he's not playing it angry, he's sort of playing it more. It's just like, you know, they could they could die from this.
00:46:30:12 - 00:46:33:04
Cullen
Like it's it's this very, you know.
00:46:33:06 - 00:46:34:23
Clark
Matter of fact, the choice.
00:46:35:11 - 00:46:44:21
Cullen
Of how he how he and I know that Malick isn't I as far as I'm aware and as far as I've read up on him, he's not somebody that will like sit down with an actor and be like, No, no, say it this.
00:46:44:21 - 00:46:45:20
Clark
Way. I doubt he.
00:46:45:20 - 00:47:08:22
Cullen
Really does give his actors kind of the freedom to explore these roles and really play around with roles because he is such an improvizational director. And so so I think that that it really does lend lot of credit to the performances in this movie that are great, that shows you what they can do, like what a lot of these people, when you're giving them the chance to kind of play around in these roles, what what they're able to do with them.
00:47:09:05 - 00:47:16:22
Clark
So what do you say? I'm kind of curious. I mean, do you have any thoughts or have you read anything on kind of what happened to these other performances then? I mean.
00:47:16:22 - 00:47:17:22
Cullen
So I think I mean, any.
00:47:17:22 - 00:47:18:18
Clark
Speculation.
00:47:18:18 - 00:47:30:15
Cullen
The big thing, of course, is Jim Caviezel being that he was supposed to be a background role. And it was almost that there was a big switch. Was Adrien Brody versus was Jim Caviezel, is that Jim Caviezel became the main character.
00:47:30:15 - 00:47:31:01
Clark
Yeah.
00:47:31:11 - 00:47:55:01
Cullen
And I think, honestly, like I I'm not even going to I'm not going to draw much more of a distinction than just that. I think Terry Malick in the edit saw the things that he liked and wanted to push on those, like wanting to like he very much wanted to make this almost mosaic of of these moments. And if that meant some actors were going to have only 10% or less of their stuff used, then he was like, That's what that's what I want my movie to be.
00:47:55:01 - 00:48:13:21
Cullen
And I think that that was a big part of it. And I know people again in my personal life and just in general pop culture conversation have really had a lot of discussion about this movie, about like, oh, you know, Malick's such an asshole for what he did to Adrien Brody and stuff like that. Could he have probably handled that better and let him know prior to the premiere that, you know, Hey, you're not the lead of this movie.
00:48:14:00 - 00:48:28:17
Cullen
Yeah, I'm sure that that would have been a nice thing to do. But I think that people that like there's a lot of people that say that he shouldn't have done that, that he shouldn't. And but to me, I kind of take it from a different angle, which is that, you know, whatever makes the movie better to me is is what the choices that should be made.
00:48:28:17 - 00:48:46:09
Cullen
And I think that and I'm not saying that Adrien Brody was in any way, you know, not good in this movie because we haven't seen most of his performance. But I think that from what you do see of Adrien Brody in the film, I can tell at least just from that little bit. And again, we don't see most of his performance.
00:48:46:09 - 00:49:19:19
Cullen
So this is very much speculative, of course, but but I find Jim Caviezel character much more intriguing, and I find that characters a much more interesting character to center the plot around as opposed to And I think a big reason why Malick would have chosen to cut him and at least again, is speculation. But I can see this being the reason is that Adrien Brody character, as I said, is the main character of the the book and the, you know, essentially, arguably and possibly the the author's kind of voice in the book.
00:49:20:11 - 00:49:38:07
Cullen
And I think that Malick realized and I could see this happening, realizing halfway through shooting or perhaps during even in the editing process that Adrien Brody's character is not Malick's character, that Jim Caviezel character like. I see Jim Caviezel character seeing the world much more similarly to how it sees the world.
00:49:38:07 - 00:49:38:12
Clark
Yeah.
00:49:38:12 - 00:49:46:17
Cullen
So he wanted to switch that out and sort of say, You know what, I'm not going to go with the book. I'm going to go with this is this is now going to be my.
00:49:47:03 - 00:49:47:18
Clark
Sort of take here.
00:49:47:20 - 00:49:52:19
Cullen
In my voice in the movie is going to be Jim Caviezel. And I think that that's kind of what happened. But again, speculation.
00:49:52:19 - 00:50:11:13
Clark
Is totally speculation, of course. Yeah, I mean, that's okay. That's what we're here to do. I mean, I think I was going to say it kind of a different way, but I completely agree with you. I mean, from what we can see on screen, from what we can see from the deleted scenes, you know, so in what we can kind of read up on production notes and things like this, you know, historically, I mean, I get a sense.
00:50:11:13 - 00:50:30:16
Clark
Yes. That, you know, that as Malick I mean, we're going to we can kind of segway into a little bit in in kind of Malick shooting philosophy and kind of filmmaking philosophy. You know, Malick shoots like crazy. He shot over a million feet of film that's over 165 hours of film for this. How many.
00:50:30:16 - 00:50:31:18
Cullen
Pairs of feet is that.
00:50:32:17 - 00:50:54:14
Clark
Where, well, just take 106 divided by half. But I mean, you know, he you know, which is insane. I mean, that's insane. You're shooting digitally. I don't care what you're shooting. That's insane. I can't believe they shot that much film. Yes. You know, so it's my understanding everything that I've ever read or heard about the way he shoots is that, you know, he wants to he likes to improvise a lot.
00:50:54:14 - 00:51:11:07
Clark
Again, we talked about not just improvising, but phrasing, blocking. I've heard, too, that he will shoot every scene in like three different types of daylight in three types of light. So that so that he's, you know, no matter what situation he gets himself into in the edit, he can do whatever he wants.
00:51:11:07 - 00:51:23:07
Cullen
And I've heard that he mixes them too. He makes that he like that. It's not even a matter of that. He wants these three different types of daylight so that he knows the continuity is going to be correct. He'll take a shot from sundown and then cut to a shot from midday. So.
00:51:23:12 - 00:51:39:10
Clark
So he's got all this coverage? Yes. Yeah, he just I mean, he shoots coverage like crazy and then he goes and he finds the film in the edit. So I think you're right. I think he got in the edit. The film starts speaking to him. It starts to like bubble up. Out of all this footage, he's got his editors working.
00:51:39:17 - 00:52:03:20
Clark
And I think you're right. I think that. CAVIEZEL The tone of his performance just kind of who that kind of character felt like and just the essence of that character seem to kind of I think kind of represent a little bit more of Malick's own kind of, you know, poetic kind of philosophical mindset.
00:52:04:01 - 00:52:05:03
Cullen
Yeah, that's worldview. Yeah.
00:52:05:05 - 00:52:13:03
Clark
And his world view and kind of present it, you know, it just, I think, felt tonally and stylistically more in line with the film that Malick wants to make. But it totally.
00:52:13:03 - 00:52:32:18
Cullen
Makes sense because if you look at, again, just from the bits of Adrien Brody performance that are in it, it definitely seems like Adrien Brody is much more of a typical lead character in a Hollywood movie, which is this new, like this young kind of recruit that's that's terrified of going into battle and stuff like that. Whereas Caviezel character never shows fear.
00:52:33:05 - 00:52:34:08
Clark
He's not in. That ever.
00:52:34:08 - 00:52:43:14
Cullen
Breaks down. He never you know, he's very comical. Reminds me honestly, a lot of of Rumble Fish of Mickey Rourke.
00:52:43:14 - 00:52:45:07
Clark
Scarecrow, motorcycle boy. Yeah.
00:52:45:07 - 00:52:57:23
Cullen
Motorcycle boy, which is very, very poetic, very calm, very lifelike. This Napoleonic kind of like gentle giant of and not giant in the way that he's like this, like strongman or anything, but just this this.
00:52:58:00 - 00:52:59:00
Clark
In his grounded this.
00:52:59:00 - 00:53:00:10
Cullen
Gentle groundedness. Yeah and.
00:53:00:11 - 00:53:01:00
Clark
Yeah I think that.
00:53:01:00 - 00:53:12:14
Cullen
That lines up in you know just watching other Malick movies that you can see Malick's voice of course come through these things and it really lines up to me with with Malick's own worldview. And I think Malick really saw himself in that character.
00:53:12:14 - 00:53:13:12
Clark
And yeah, which is.
00:53:13:12 - 00:53:14:21
Cullen
Totally fair to me again, like.
00:53:15:07 - 00:53:16:22
Clark
You know, who knows? But it sounds good.
00:53:16:22 - 00:53:17:14
Cullen
Yeah, but.
00:53:19:04 - 00:53:39:05
Clark
I think though, and I don't know, you know, again, like just to go off into a little bit of speculation some more, I mean, you know, I've read a little bit about Adrien Brody and Mickey Rourke response at the time when they found out that they weren't in the film. Who know? I don't know what actually happened or didn't happened in so far as like how that was communicated to them.
00:53:40:04 - 00:54:03:13
Clark
Obviously, if it was the case that they weren't made aware of this at all, that they weren't kind of handled in a in a polite diplomatic way, then, you know, obviously that's not fantastic. But it is you know, there is a pragmatic I mean, I'm a little bit split. I mean, I agree that obviously being able to walk away with a film that you wanted to make is important.
00:54:03:13 - 00:54:39:22
Clark
I mean, as a director, the execution of your vision is kind of why you're there. And the film that you end up with in the end is certainly important. But being a little older now and kind of been through a little bit more, I've bit soft. And though to the realities of like the fact that this is human beings that you're working with and and that you know it's not always an ends to a means that you know how you treat the people that you're working with, how you respect them, their time, their professionalism, their talent is really important.
00:54:39:22 - 00:55:06:20
Clark
So I'm not Terrence Malick. I'm certainly not passing any kind of judgment on him whatsoever. But just for myself personally, I certainly would do everything in the world I could possibly do to not let that happen, to not set myself up for a situation where I'm going to have a just I'm going to just get a bunch of actors and I'm going to get a ton of like footage or, you know, telefilm or a ton of ton of like hard drive space.
00:55:07:14 - 00:55:26:01
Clark
And I'm just going to go shoot for 160 hours and then I'm going to put a film after the fact. And, you know, a lot of these people's time is just going to have been completely wasted. You know, I wouldn't personally make a film that way, but hey, there's there's a you know, for every director out there, there's a different way to make a film.
00:55:26:01 - 00:55:30:16
Clark
And that's fantastic. And I definitely don't criticize Malick for it. It just wouldn't be what I would do.
00:55:30:16 - 00:55:41:18
Cullen
I think it's interesting, too, because there's a there's a Hollywood Reporter roundtable with a whole bunch of actors from like, I think three years ago or something. And yeah, George Clooney, Christopher Plummer, two of the actors who are of course, they both worked so.
00:55:41:18 - 00:55:42:06
Clark
That's right.
00:55:42:10 - 00:56:01:22
Cullen
And Christopher Plummer is like basically talking about how he never wants to work with Malick again. Of course, he was in the New World and describes this whole thing of like that he would be delivering this monologue and then Malick would then take the camera and go over and look at some bird. And it was like, but I think it's really it's Christopher Plummer very unhappy with Malick, didn't like it.
00:56:02:05 - 00:56:02:12
Clark
Yeah.
00:56:02:15 - 00:56:25:12
Cullen
Whereas George Clooney takes it from a completely different angle which is this more so this this looking at it of this like you know I kind of expected that when I signed up for it, you know, that he took it much more of like this this almost exercise of like, hey, I'm going to have you know, I'm going to do work and I'm going to try and do really good work and I'm going to try and, you know, really flex my acting muscles and try and do as good of a job as I can.
00:56:25:12 - 00:56:28:09
Cullen
If none of it ends up in the movie, then that's fair.
00:56:28:12 - 00:56:35:17
Clark
To be fair, Clooney was in a very different position than Adrien Brody. Yes, of course. But Adrien Brody is like.
00:56:36:00 - 00:56:50:13
Cullen
And I think Adrien Brody has actually come out and said, like, since he was very upset at the time, but has come out since and sort of said, I'm glad that The Pianist was my debut. And we think that he did a better job, like he thinks that that was a better role for him to kind of spin himself up.
00:56:50:13 - 00:56:54:09
Clark
So and clearly it I mean, hindsight is always 20, 20. I mean.
00:56:54:17 - 00:57:08:16
Cullen
But again, not to pass judgment on Malick, but like to me, I if I was doing that, there's a point like if I was going to do that, if there was a point where in the edit and I was like, Oh damn, you know what? I actually really like this character's story much more. I want to focus on that.
00:57:09:01 - 00:57:16:08
Cullen
I would feel bad for that first actor and I would I would talk to them like I would go to them and sort of say, Look, I like this. Wasn't the intention.
00:57:16:09 - 00:57:17:21
Clark
Kind of let him down a lot, but.
00:57:17:21 - 00:57:31:06
Cullen
I like there's there's a story in there that I didn't realize was there before I got into getting room. And I think we're going to focus on that and that is that you're going to be in a lot of it, less of it than you expected. And I just want to let you you know, I would do that.
00:57:31:10 - 00:57:41:23
Cullen
I think Malick is very much more of the kind of like hermit artist who is just like, I'm going to work and I'm going to release it. And that's that. He's because he very is, you know, famously does not do a lot of public appearance.
00:57:42:03 - 00:57:42:10
Clark
Yeah.
00:57:42:10 - 00:58:05:19
Cullen
Kind of hard to reach so so I think that that you know that's just Malick's side of working whereas I think that I think that there are ways to balance it to do that and to like if you came across, you know, I've had similar situations, of course, not to the point of like casting an actor and then removing them from a film, but I've had points where I've had composers write entire scores that I've paid for, like I've paid them and they've written entire scores for a movie.
00:58:05:19 - 00:58:22:16
Cullen
And, you know, I just realize that it's not right. And so I've happened, I've talked to them and sort of said, hey, like, this is you know, it's not that the music was bad, the music is really beautiful, but it's not the direction I want to go in. And so I've rehired and it's awkward and it's unfortunate. And, you know, it's there's no easy way to do it.
00:58:22:16 - 00:58:32:06
Cullen
Obviously, the person's going to be, you know, somewhat hurt anyone else. But I think that there are ways to go about that that are are not people showing.
00:58:32:06 - 00:58:32:11
Clark
Right.
00:58:32:12 - 00:58:39:04
Cullen
I think Kubrick did it, too. You know, Kubrick cut out the entire score of 2001, A Space Odyssey, and the composer got there and was like.
00:58:39:08 - 00:58:58:22
Clark
Yeah, none of my music is in this movie. Why am I? It's this premiere. And I think that's a key. I think that's a key. The take home is respect. Yes, these things can happen, but I mean, come on, everybody's got enough time to pick up a phone and yeah. And say, Hey, you know, I'm so sorry, but here's what's going to go down and here's why it's good.
00:58:58:22 - 00:59:09:10
Clark
And it's not your fault. It's not. That performance was horrible because that's what a lot of people are going to think. I mean, I look, I know actors actor gets cut out of a film. The very first thing they're going to think is I must have sucked.
00:59:09:17 - 00:59:28:13
Cullen
Yeah. In especially in a situation like that This is your big break. Yeah that like, this is my devastating. It's like you would think your career was over. Yeah, I think, like, I just got hired for a multimillion dollar blockbuster movie that's coming out, like, with, you know, a really famous director, even though he's not really prolific at this point, that famous.
00:59:28:19 - 00:59:32:13
Cullen
And he's making his big comeback. And I've been cut out from the main character role.
00:59:32:13 - 00:59:35:17
Clark
You're going to be heartbroken. You're going to be heartbroken. Yeah. Yeah.
00:59:35:17 - 00:59:55:14
Cullen
So I think that yeah, definitely there's a level to which you could you could approach that respectfully, you know, And that's what I don't while I don't disagree with the choice itself of of of focusing on Jim Caviezel character, I think that the the ethics of going about it and letting Adrien Brody down perhaps sooner than the premiere would have been a better way.
00:59:55:14 - 01:00:12:09
Clark
To think about it. And who knows, maybe that happened. And somehow and, you know, look, stories get turned around and yes, yeah. So I'm not even I'm not even claiming that Malick wasn't generous and kind. And, you know, who knows, maybe wires got crossed or the communications didn't make it through agents or who knows? I don't even want to.
01:00:12:14 - 01:00:14:16
Clark
I just like speaking kind of theoretically.
01:00:14:16 - 01:00:18:05
Cullen
But it's a good thing to take away from if you're if you're playing Ray.
01:00:18:06 - 01:00:34:22
Clark
That's the way I try to use it. It's just okay, like, how can I use this, this, this example to kind of educator for my own, you know, methods of doing things, you know, my own life and work as a filmmaker and yeah, and just kind of like, you know, try to learn from this things. That's it. So it's never like.
01:00:35:21 - 01:00:55:09
Cullen
We've talked a lot about, you know, we've kind of hinted at Herzog through this this episode, too, which I think is kind of a perhaps a good place to like, wind down a little bit on his. Yeah. This idea that to me, Malick and Herzog are like this different sides of the same coin and they are very much opposites in many ways and very similar.
01:00:55:09 - 01:01:30:21
Cullen
And so, you know, we talk about like landscapes with Herzog, it was a big part of our like the landscape of the soul was an entire episode of of his masterclass. And Herzog uses like Herzog is so fascinated with human beings and with faces and with the human condition and understanding human beings. Malick, to me, is almost the opposite of that, that Malick Malick's aspirations and fascinations come from human beings being involved with nature, and that human beings are small parts of nature and that we all are this these these tiny little animals that are running around and being violent to each other on this rock.
01:01:30:21 - 01:01:55:22
Cullen
And so like Malick to me, as much as personal as things do get. But Malick, I think, is much more looking at humanity and the human condition in within its existence in nature and within its within its being a a smaller part of a larger picture. Whereas Herzog very much to me likes to focus on that. Humanity like that is the fascination for him is is human motivation and human existence.
01:01:55:22 - 01:02:21:16
Cullen
And, and you know, kind of the philosophy is of of you know, what how do we shape landscape around us and how does the landscape around us shape or shape us? You know, so I think it's really interesting that as similar as they are and that at first glance you might think that they're incredibly similar filmmakers, but the the philosophies of each of them are the same subject, but almost completely different conclusions.
01:02:21:16 - 01:02:29:14
Cullen
I think it's it's I think it's really interesting to have done this film, especially coming off of our whole Herzog kind of special.
01:02:29:23 - 01:02:31:08
Clark
Yeah.
01:02:31:08 - 01:02:36:08
Cullen
Is that they Yeah, they're they're very similar and they're very different in some ways. And I think that's really neat.
01:02:37:02 - 01:02:58:19
Clark
That's interesting. I, I feel like, you know, when I kind of like think about the two filmmakers, especially, you know, using this particular film as representative of Malick's work since we're talking about it, you know, I get a sense I mean, yes. HERZOG His focus is, you know, I think that Herzog uses yes, he's interested in kind of humanity, in human behavior.
01:02:58:19 - 01:03:28:06
Clark
But, you know, he's very interested in utilizing landscapes to try to to illustrate and express, you know, an inner feeling or condition of humanity. And so I get a sense that this is very similar to Malick, where, you know, but Malick is kind of like zooming in a little bit more, where Herzog is showing an entire horizon, an entire landscape, this huge wide landscape.
01:03:28:06 - 01:03:59:11
Clark
Usually Malick is kind of focusing on aspects of it a tree, a dying bird. Yes. Yeah, yeah. You know, a leaf or, you know, these pieces. But but still, I would consider them landscapes and I would consider it that, you know, Terrence Malick is very much trying to utilize these inanimate objects, this nature in the world, to kind of, you know, represent to to hint at these inner conditions of humanity.
01:03:59:11 - 01:04:04:17
Clark
But clearly, the two work radically differently. I mean, yes, I find the scenes.
01:04:04:17 - 01:04:05:06
Cullen
Absolutely.
01:04:05:06 - 01:04:25:06
Clark
I know Herzog is very much respects Malick. I don't know if the opposite is true, but I've definitely heard Herzog very specifically say that he is. I don't know if Fan is the right word, but I know that he's mentioned Malick's work in a positive light before. But, you know, I mean, Herzog works with a much greater sense of urgency.
01:04:25:06 - 01:04:43:09
Clark
He doesn't shoot any I mean, I could imagine Herzog would go nuts on a Malick shoot, you know, because Malick is just kind of I mean, you almost could get a sense sometimes maybe that Malick is like a fly on the wall in that he's just shooting and shooting and shooting and shooting and perhaps.
01:04:43:09 - 01:04:47:07
Cullen
Showing the the positive side of that style.
01:04:47:11 - 01:04:47:21
Clark
And the.
01:04:47:22 - 01:04:48:15
Cullen
Contrast to.
01:04:48:15 - 01:04:50:16
Clark
Herzog Yeah, Yeah, of course.
01:04:50:22 - 01:04:56:07
Cullen
And I know that they they've like, they've done presentations together. So I'm sure that the respect between them is mutual.
01:04:56:13 - 01:05:11:13
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. And it's just but of course, and it illustrates that there is no one way, right? There's no one way to make a film. And so, you know, you can shoot 165 hours of film and come away with great film. You could shoot, you know, you know, almost a 1 to 1 ratio potentially, and still come out with a great film.
01:05:11:13 - 01:05:18:07
Cullen
So, yeah, perhaps to get personal again to you know, I find myself at least I land somewhere in the middle.
01:05:18:18 - 01:05:19:01
Clark
Yeah.
01:05:19:09 - 01:05:41:00
Cullen
You know, I think that there are there are bits and pieces that I choose from Herzog's filmmaking philosophy, and there are bits and pieces that I choose from Malick's among many others, of course. But yeah, you know, like the urgency I think is so important with Herzog. And that's really like that's, I would say the main thing that I really get inspired from Herzog by is just this like, don't waste time, do it, you know, get into it.
01:05:41:00 - 01:05:57:08
Cullen
But there's also I can totally see myself, you know, for the movie that I'm doing this summer, there's definitely going to be moments where I ask the actors to improvise and I just roll for 15 minutes and and just get them. Do you know, just talk to them as they're as they're playing out these scenes differently each time.
01:05:57:08 - 01:06:16:12
Cullen
And and so there's a lot of sort of more Malick stuff I would say that I look at or I also like sometimes to to have the camera far away, you know? Herzog very much believes in getting up close and and if you're going to be you know, if you're going to have something, be there, you know, be present with the camera where there are times that I totally would yeah, would agree with that.
01:06:16:12 - 01:06:43:17
Cullen
But there are also times when I'm like, no, there's something about keeping the camera back and just having it observational and having this, this faraway view of of like a scene playing out while you're while you feel like you're not necessarily involved in it. And you just can examine this whole like almost third eye type deal. Yeah. So yeah, there's there's you know, I don't think that I don't think that either of them either would say that my way is right and his way is wrong because again now they mutually respect each other.
01:06:44:11 - 01:07:02:07
Cullen
But I think that it does it's a really, really great, I think, exercise to kind of look at what are the different philosophies of filmmaking and where can you learn from and pull from and apply those to your own work. And so I'm curious to know like where you land, do you think that you kind of bend more towards Herzog or or Malick or not?
01:07:02:08 - 01:07:22:06
Clark
I think I mean, well, and again, I mean, it's not that there's like a Herzog style in a Malick style of filmmaking. Yes. Yeah. Aspects that they that they kind of they're examples are representative of potentially different ways of working that someone may have. And there are other ways of working that these two people don't represent at all.
01:07:22:06 - 01:07:59:08
Clark
So, yeah, so it's not that I don't want to represent it is that there's like a dichotomy of a style and a person B style or, you know, so but there's just pieces you write and we kind of that's the whole point that you and I discuss these films and these podcast is, is to kind of use them as examples to learn more about filmmaking and, you know, kind of evaluate and reformulate our own philosophies of filmmaking and, you know, maybe, you know, kind of gets the creative juices flowing and we think of like new ways or different ways to work on our own projects and things like this and, and even increases our enjoyment
01:07:59:08 - 01:08:22:16
Clark
of of just being an audience member and watching films because we kind of hone in our own skills as an observer. So, you know, for me, I would agree. I mean, yeah, I'm not dogmatic. I mean, first and foremost, there's no at least for me, I don't see any reason to be dogmatic. So whatever works, I mean, I think whatever serves the story and whatever works for the group of that you have together for that particular film is what you should do.
01:08:22:16 - 01:08:38:01
Clark
So I mean, I try not to even think about it in the way of like that. There is this one way I should do it versus another. I, you know, so and so for me, I mean, I think I'm kind of in the same way as you. I could see. You know, I think urgency is important for me.
01:08:38:01 - 01:09:08:20
Clark
Just on a personal because I have a tendency to procrastinate. I have a tendency to kind of, you know, get bogged down and lose interest if I don't have a fire under my butt and you I'm not working quick. But but then I also understand, like I'm also okay with stopping to take time to get something right. And, you know, if have to like, meditate on something for days or weeks or even months before I feel like I've got that, you know, clear for myself, then I'll do it.
01:09:08:20 - 01:09:28:09
Clark
So, you know, I like I don't generally want to go out and shoot 100 hours of footage because I can't edit that way. It's not. Yes, generally. Generally, you know, some of this stuff is just logistics. I'm not Terrence Malick. I can't afford a roomful of editors to like the whole, you know. Yeah. I will whittle down to all of it.
01:09:28:09 - 01:09:28:15
Cullen
Yeah.
01:09:28:16 - 01:10:00:23
Clark
Whittled down 165 hours of footage. I mean, I just logistically can't do that. So, you know, I just logistics define these things too often. So for me, I really to get a much more, you know, narrow, like not narrow, but just more specifically visualized in my head of what I want. But knows maybe in a decade, maybe in 20 years or something, you know, maybe I'll be in a place where I can I can experiment like that and get a bunch of great talented actors in the room or out in a field or wherever the heck we are.
01:10:00:23 - 01:10:01:20
Cullen
In a warehouse.
01:10:02:07 - 01:10:27:13
Clark
Yeah. And, and like, let them improvise and play around, you know? I mean, that could be awesome. Yeah. You know, I, I really don't try to look like. Look at it dogmatically. No, I think all of these things, it's just tools, right? You've got a toolbox. These are like the tools that are available to you. And kind of this is part of the creative journey for every artist is figuring out what things work for you and what things maybe don't and and what works when and, where.
01:10:27:17 - 01:10:32:23
Clark
So yeah, and then I really couldn't say that there's any one way or the other that I would.
01:10:32:23 - 01:10:34:17
Cullen
Really how things work and things don't for.
01:10:34:17 - 01:10:37:22
Clark
Seen Yeah yeah so I.
01:10:37:22 - 01:10:40:03
Cullen
Consider myself more of the David Lean film at.
01:10:41:02 - 01:10:42:13
Clark
That but no I think it's.
01:10:42:13 - 01:10:54:15
Cullen
It's it's it's really Yeah I think it's I think that's ultimately the point right is well at least what I try to do is I pick and choose things that work for me.
01:10:54:22 - 01:10:55:14
Clark
Yeah. Yeah.
01:10:55:14 - 01:11:17:21
Cullen
If I see something that works in a Malick sense, then I'll go, you know, I'm going to pull that and I'm going to trying it. There's a scene that was not working for me for this feature coming, and I was like, It was my least favorite scene in the movie, but it was necessary because there was this there's this exposition in the scene that really needs to be said, and it's like, I've worked over so many times, like, how can I show this visually?
01:11:17:21 - 01:11:45:23
Cullen
How can I? And it just has to be said essentially in this, in this conversation. And so I walked around the dialog to make the dialog look as good as I possibly can make it. And even then I was like, it's just, you know, it's just two people talking in a forest. I don't I don't like that. So I've honestly decided and I just kind of redid the shortlist for the scene last night where I was like, I'm going to try and do this in a very Malick way where I get a bunch of shots of them just walking around the woods and I almost play this in voiceover and have this like this almost
01:11:45:23 - 01:12:03:23
Cullen
dreamlike feeling of this, this entire scene of them, you know, just, just, just wandering through these woods and kind of like having these physical interactions with each other while they discuss and then we can cut to those conversation moments that are more traditionally short but intercut those with these. And I was like, That brings so much more life to the scene.
01:12:04:02 - 01:12:20:03
Cullen
And if it doesn't work, got those traditional conversations cut or shot. So I can just like if I do that and somebody says, okay, that scene sticks out as just completely different from everything else in the movie, Well, then I can just go to the more traditional way that it's shot because I'm going to be shooting those traditional, you know, conversations.
01:12:20:03 - 01:12:33:01
Cullen
I'm just getting that extra material to be able to play with in the edit. So yeah, there's totally stuff that like when I look at how I make movies, I can how do I pull from things that I that I like from directors and how do I, you know.
01:12:33:06 - 01:12:51:21
Clark
Why do you ask me? I think after thinking about it, I think, oh, hopefully Roger Corman would be There you go. I'm like, I'm like, I got no money and I want to get together like an A, but like a low budget B genre movie that's there. God, I just love that. I love the.
01:12:51:21 - 01:12:57:23
Cullen
Philosophy of like, we should do a Corman movie one day, but I love the philosophy of just like, we've got this castle set for three more days, Let's make another.
01:12:57:23 - 01:13:13:11
Clark
Movie exact. That's that's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about. Awesome. All right, man. Well, on that note, we'll wrap it up. It's been another great episode. Colin, thanks for hanging out with me. Everybody out there listening. Thanks for hanging out with us. We hope you enjoyed it. Until next time.
01:13:13:11 - 01:13:15:18
Cullen
Bye bye.