Cullen
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I am your usual host Cullen McFater, along with my lovely co-host, Clark Coffey.
00:00:19:11 - 00:00:24:04
Clark
Hey, hey, hey. So wait a minute. So you're usual, and I'm lovely. Is that what that's the titles that you've given.
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Cullen
Are a little bit extraordinary.
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Clark
Okay, So I'm extraordinarily okay. That's I mean, you're.
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Cullen
I wouldn't say I'm the norm. You're. You're.
00:00:32:05 - 00:00:38:18
Clark
You're more than just the usual right or regular. I mean, I would consider you exceptional as well. But anyway, we've.
00:00:38:18 - 00:00:48:01
Cullen
Got to be humble. But today we are doing a movie that I honestly had not thought about for a very long time. Which was your choice, Kerry?
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Clark
Yes.
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Cullen
1976, not the 2013 remake, of course. The.
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Clark
Oh, absolutely.
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Cullen
Original. Yep. And Brian De Palma, who I think both of us are big fans of. Yeah. Even though he's kind of, you know, squared away from the limelight. Limelight a little bit recently.
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Clark
A little bit. And it's a shame. Yeah. And the 2000s he is, you know, been relegated to kind of Euro films you know small budget and not a lot of, you know, publicity or exposure. But but yeah I mean I think that he's one of my favorite filmmakers. Mm hmm. But even I he kind of falls off my radar even.
00:01:25:02 - 00:01:43:09
Clark
And I have to kind of, you know, remind myself like, hey, wait a minute. Oh, hold on, man. This guy has got one hell of a filmography. And I, you know, and it was tough to pick the film. You know, I because there's a lot of things that I could have picked and I was kind of, you know, trying to figure out what to pick.
00:01:43:09 - 00:01:54:22
Clark
And, you know, of course, like right off the bat, 1980 ones Blowout came to mind first. And I'm thinking that's you know, I consider that probably the pinnacle. It's definitely a masterpiece. I kind of consider.
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Cullen
That it's fantastic.
00:01:56:01 - 00:02:17:17
Clark
It's a fantastic film. And I thought, well, maybe that's you know, I don't know. Is that a little too obvious, though? Has that been covered, you know, so many times that it's it might be kind of a situation of diminishing returns here. Yeah, that I thought for maybe a second. Casualties of War. And I actually think that's a pretty amazing film as well.
00:02:18:15 - 00:02:28:13
Clark
I thought for a second Scarface and clearly Scarface is probably his most commercially. In today's day and age, I mean, has gone on to have such a life of its own.
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Cullen
Yeah, it's got its own pop culture thing.
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Clark
It's it's it's it's its own huge pop culture thing. But I thought, you know, it might be interesting to revisit that, try to, like, scrape away all that kind of pop culture, pop culture, art of artifice and and really kind of revisit the film itself again. But then I but then I landed on this. And I think a big part of that is because, you know, this film was released in 76.
00:02:49:16 - 00:03:11:07
Clark
I was born in 76. I saw this film when I was very young because it was a very commercially successful film. It played, you know, on TV and, you know, everywhere when I was a kid. And so I saw the film when I was young, and it was just really impactful for a couple of different reasons, which we're all going to kind of get into.
00:03:11:07 - 00:03:33:22
Clark
But yeah, so I thought, Hey, what the hell? Kerry Plus, I love horror films, which I feel like this film is barely a horror film. It's only in the, you know, the final 30 minutes that I think it earns that horror film genre title. Yeah, Title. But but, but it is definitely I mean, it's very much feels like a genre film.
00:03:33:22 - 00:03:36:23
Clark
And I love genre films. I love exploitation.
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Cullen
And I think I think it's interesting too, because it's sort of much in the way that again and we'll get into this in a lot greater detail. But like much in the way that Hitchcock movies aren't, you know, most I would say about even Hitchcock's scariest movies are probably 80% drama, more so than scares or suspense or thrills or anything like that.
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Cullen
Right. And De Palma, who very much is clearly, clearly heavily inspired by as as most of that that group of filmmakers were sure by Hitchcock. Yeah. Yeah that that you almost get a similar kind of structure of movie here where it's like a lot of it is about character and development.
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Clark
It's building the building, all this.
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Cullen
This.
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Clark
Tension.
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Cullen
Yeah. Which I think is brilliantly done here. Again, I, you know, I hadn't seen this movie since I was in grade seven. I think the first seven or grade eight was a it's been.
00:04:29:05 - 00:04:31:03
Clark
Forever for me too. Yeah, I haven't seen it.
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Cullen
Which was last year. Yeah.
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Clark
I love you.
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Cullen
Know I always remember my so my dad would have been 21 when this came out I think. Yeah. Yeah. And he always talked about it when I was a kid. Like it was always one of those movies that he would always mention Psycho, which I'd seen when I was very young. Yeah. Because my dad was a huge Hitchcock fan.
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Cullen
Yeah. And or is but he always talked about this movie having been one where it was like him and his brother were watching it and the ending scared them so much that they ran out of the room and like.
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Clark
Oh, you've got.
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Cullen
The couch and you've.
00:05:03:20 - 00:05:04:08
Clark
Got to watch.
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Cullen
I remember, yeah, I remember thinking like me and my friend Evan, who I'm still really good friends with, you know, works with me on films today.
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Clark
Shout out to Evan.
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Cullen
Yeah. Hey, Evan, he we just decided one day to, like, watch it in his basement after school. And we did. And I remember the magic. It was. It was dated, but it was like, not a negative aspect of it. Like, I was like, This is a very seventies movie, but I really was kind of like driving with it, like I liked it.
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Clark
Well, the cinematography is very and we'll talk about this a little bit too, but that you know, that the usage of the promise and the, you know. Oh, God.
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Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
And the zooms, I mean, there's definitely things that bring you into the seventies world. But I'm curious then so, you know, the first time I saw the film was certainly it was on television, it was some kind of broadcast and it could have been, you know, cable or well, it could have been cable or some kind of broadcast.
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Clark
It was almost certainly edited for content, for broadcast. What how did you first see it was this VHS was I'm trying to think today because you're young, so it could have.
00:06:07:00 - 00:06:22:15
Cullen
Either been I mean, when we when I was young, like when I was still kind of in my youth, it was VHS was kind of the dominant thing. Yeah, probably until I mean, you know, until I was about in middle school or maybe a little late elementary. Well, because.
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Clark
You said seventh grade. So.
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Cullen
Yeah, So, so I think I think we might have watched this on, on VHS. So I don't, I don't think it was like at least we didn't have the DVD. So yeah, for binary, you know, you're, you're sitting there with the scratchy audio was probably a tape that had been worn down to.
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Clark
Hand and scanned was where and you've got.
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Cullen
Technically but no, I mean, again, just as an aside, it's always so funny to think back to watching things like that in that format because it didn't seem poor quality at all, at least when I was.
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Clark
Well, it's what you had.
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Cullen
Yeah, like it was. I remember thinking that it was amazing.
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Clark
It was like, Well, yeah, it was like you're you were so thrilled just to be able to watch a film at home. Who cares? You know? I mean, yeah, nobody knew anything else. I didn't know anything different. I mean, except, of course, when you went to the theater, you had, you had widescreen aspect ratios. But of course at home everything was for while.
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Cullen
That was what made the theater special, right?
00:07:16:19 - 00:07:22:15
Clark
That's what made it special. And I mean, look, I had black I had a black and white TV until I was, you know, day.
00:07:22:16 - 00:07:27:21
Cullen
I had yeah, I had it my black and white TV for a while, too. But I think I was so old.
00:07:28:06 - 00:07:48:09
Clark
Oh, my gosh. So. So yeah, I mean, I remember thinking, yeah. Especially like if, you know, when I would go rent a VHS tape. Right? And, you know, you could kind of tell, right. If you got a tape that was new versus if you got a tape that had been watched, you know, a thousand times or, you know, or 10,000 times and you know that you'd I'd be so excited.
00:07:48:09 - 00:07:59:07
Clark
I was like, oh, I can tell. It's new, you know, And I'd pop it in and it you'd be like, Oh, wow, It's so crisp. I mean, yeah. Oh, my gosh. The picture quality is so great. You know, you remember how an older tapes it would start to.
00:07:59:11 - 00:08:05:12
Cullen
Oh, they would be more Yeah yeah. And or it would, it would, there would be one slice of the screen that would be like slightly left or something.
00:08:05:12 - 00:08:12:01
Clark
Yeah. It wouldn't track. Yeah. There was something off with tracking or who knows what it would start to lose its, you know, deep magnetize over time and.
00:08:12:01 - 00:08:13:17
Cullen
The staticky sound. Yeah.
00:08:13:17 - 00:08:14:09
Clark
Yeah yeah.
00:08:14:09 - 00:08:39:00
Cullen
Which is. But I but again it's just, it's funny too you know that that was that that before this would have been the only way that I'd seen this movie. Yeah. And I, you know, I, I liked it a lot then it just what's funny is that when I say that it's a movie that, that I hadn't thought about in a long time, it's not necessarily that I, you know, I'd forgotten about it, but rather that I just it's a movie that I watched and it was kind of in like the repertoire of movies that I felt like I needed to watch.
00:08:39:00 - 00:08:54:18
Cullen
And then I did it and then just kind of was like, cool and then moved on from it. And then when you would recommended it and I was like, That's an interesting one because I, I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know how I was going to be either. Had been so long since I had seen it.
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Cullen
Well, I.
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Clark
Didn't know either because I hadn't seen it since I was very young too. So it's been a long time. And I do have to say, though, you know, part of why I picked it, why it was at the top of my mind, was that I was kind of going on a little bit of a DePalma bender. So yeah, I had to.
00:09:11:00 - 00:09:38:14
Clark
Palmer On the brain criterion Streaming has got a handful of his films. They've got Murder on Alamo, they've got Sisters, they've got Body Double and they've got Blowout. So I've been taking advantage of of Criterion, their streaming service and they are not a paid sponsor. But I do have to say that I highly recommend Criterion streaming service. By the way, I'm not sure if they have it in Canada, but they've got it out here.
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Cullen
In the States.
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Clark
It's I mean, and it's like dirt cheap, too. I want to say it's like maybe six bucks or nine bucks or something a month. I mean, they have commentary tracks. They have extras featurettes, you know, on a lot of their films, just as they would on their physical media releases. I mean, it's it's outstanding any way. So I was kind of on a De Palma bender and it just riveted some of his films.
00:10:02:15 - 00:10:34:06
Clark
I'd never seen some of his films I hadn't seen in a long time, and I was kind of really groovin on De Palma. And so that's what kind of had this top of mind. So yeah, let's let's talk a little bit about contact, sort of the film. I think this is Brian De Palma is a really interesting filmmaker to me, and a part of that interest is kind of, you know, his, you know, the era in which he he came to making films and his you know, he's kind of considered a part of that.
00:10:34:06 - 00:10:36:04
Clark
You know, the movie Brat and.
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Cullen
Yeah, yeah. There's this huge line of, you know, those those new Hollywood filmmakers, heavy hitters. GOLDBERG Lucas Scorsese, the Coppola, Schrader really is.
00:10:47:00 - 00:11:11:18
Clark
And some of them, of course, Spielberg, Lucas and Bob Scorsese and Coppola. I mean, some of the most successful filmmakers who have ever lived. You know, you look at you look at Spielberg and Lucas, you've got some of the most commercially successful filmmakers ever. I mean, I think, you know, it's between the two of them and maybe it's Spielberg, but I mean, we're talking combined box offices that are just, you know, astronomical.
00:11:11:18 - 00:11:12:18
Clark
I mean, it's just insane.
00:11:12:18 - 00:11:13:11
Cullen
And billions.
00:11:13:11 - 00:11:18:12
Clark
I think maybe, maybe only maybe only Cameron, I don't know if Cameron is ahead of Spielberg.
00:11:18:12 - 00:11:20:15
Cullen
Or I think Spielberg is ahead just because of volume.
00:11:20:15 - 00:11:30:10
Clark
Just of just sheer volume. He's been making films since the seventies. So but, you know, I mean, that's that's a pretty wild group of filmmakers to be a part of. And, you know.
00:11:30:18 - 00:11:32:03
Cullen
And they were all friends. I mean, they.
00:11:32:03 - 00:11:33:16
Clark
Were all friends. I mean.
00:11:33:20 - 00:11:34:04
Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
Carey was actually cast right alongside, you know, Lucas was cast in Star Wars and De Palma was right there in the sessions, and they were kind of cross casting their films. You know, it's it's just like it's kind of mind blowing. I can only imagine. I mean, I've always been intrigued by De Palma because it's, you know, he he just took a different track.
00:11:54:07 - 00:12:12:23
Clark
And I think it's it's conscious, you know, it's not like, you know, he has the skill, he has the talent. He has I mean, there is you know, there isn't anything inherently that. Would you know, it's just his choice. I think his choice of subject matter, his choice of execution. And I'm appreciative of it. I mean, well, I've.
00:12:12:23 - 00:12:33:04
Cullen
Always weirdly thought that Cronenberg and De Palma were similar, but that David Cronenberg was sort of a similar director in that he the explosion diffused the the the larger window of kind of like big budget Hollywood for something a little bit more, I guess, just kind of under the radar in a weird way.
00:12:33:05 - 00:12:57:18
Clark
I mean, I think personal. I think I would say maybe a little, especially with Cronenberg more, I think personal. I think exploitive. I think, you know, a courting, a bad when people when people describe De Palma and they're trying to be derogatory, they call him trashy. I think the same things that that you know that people some people call trashy in De Palma I find to be interesting.
00:12:57:18 - 00:13:15:22
Clark
I mean I love exploitation films. I love B films, I love genre films. I grew up on them. I mean, it's like, you know, I've already talked about how I would sneak peeks when my parents would have, you know, company over viewing parties when I was a little kid and they would rent, you know, the cheesiest, most genre pictures possible.
00:13:15:22 - 00:13:40:22
Clark
And and and I would watch them like hiding in the back of the house, like, you know, reflected in a mirror. So they couldn't see me. But I could see the screen kind of thing. Yeah. So, I mean, I have a strong affinity for these kind of films. And, and I think that De Palma, you know, he takes those it's almost like I feel like Quentin Tarantino in a certain sense, You know, Quentin is a big B movie exploitation movie genre movie fan.
00:13:41:05 - 00:13:45:19
Clark
And he takes those those aspects of those films and turns them into high art.
00:13:46:18 - 00:13:48:23
Cullen
And they're and, you know, they've got so much character.
00:13:48:23 - 00:13:52:09
Clark
And I feel like the former could be yeah, you could say the same thing about.
00:13:52:09 - 00:14:11:03
Cullen
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I actually referenced De Palma recently when I was teaching a film class to, you know, high school kids these days. And I sort of said that I was comparing kind of older, you know, especially with the movie Brats because as a young them, yeah, with kind of more contemporary filmmakers and more specifically the Marvel movies.
00:14:11:03 - 00:14:32:23
Cullen
And I was sort of said that like, you know, because a lot of people that age loved the Marvel movies. And so I sort of said, That's totally cool. You can, you know, like what you want. And if you get enjoyment out of something, that's that's great. Yeah. But I think that you kind of have to consciously notice that when you watch a DePalma movie or scores or Oscars a or any of them, you immediately know that you're watching a DePalma movie.
00:14:32:23 - 00:15:08:08
Cullen
Just just by the way the camera moves and the way that that the the like just the look and the feel of everything. It just kind of exudes these people's personalities just on the screen. And there's kind of this weird thing where there are some directors today, surely, that are very much still like that. But I think it's it's a shame that on a on a large grand scale that there's this development of film that's come to the forefront, especially of box office, which is that, you know, you shouldn't take notice to a director that as a director you're there to manage a set and that's it just, you know, so if we're going to
00:15:08:08 - 00:15:12:08
Cullen
shoot a big battle scene, we just need to set up six cameras and get it.
00:15:12:08 - 00:15:30:12
Clark
And that's well, that's on that. And I mean, that's on purpose because they want they want the IP to lead the way, not to get like to move down a path. It's not about DePalma and this film, but I mean, that's on purpose. That's yeah, they want the IP to lead the way. They don't even want the actors representing those IP is to necessarily be the reason that you go in.
00:15:30:12 - 00:15:47:21
Clark
That's why costumes are so fantastic and CGI is so fantastic in their mind because it's not even the actor that you care about. It's the IP, it's Captain America, it's the Hulk, and anybody can play it and anybody can direct it. And frankly, anybody can write it because it's the concept that you care about.
00:15:49:02 - 00:15:52:05
Cullen
Well, I don't think Scorsese was wrong when he described them as amusement park. Right.
00:15:52:19 - 00:15:54:15
Clark
And there's nothing wrong with that either. I think a.
00:15:54:15 - 00:15:58:02
Cullen
Lot of it's just out there. I think people got the idea that they're uninspired.
00:15:58:02 - 00:16:18:02
Clark
Yeah, they got their undies in a bind because they're like, Wait a minute, I like those films. Are you saying that I'm a lesser person because I like these films? I know he's just saying that cinema, like what he thinks is cinema. And I. And I agree with him too. Like what I would call cinema is not a marvel movie, but it is what DePalma makes.
00:16:18:15 - 00:16:33:01
Clark
And what is the difference? Well, I think a big part of it is what we're discussing right here, which is that one of them is, you know, the cinema is stems forth from is an art authentic artistic expression from a director.
00:16:33:02 - 00:16:33:21
Cullen
It's authored.
00:16:33:21 - 00:16:34:11
Clark
Yeah, it's.
00:16:34:14 - 00:16:35:16
Cullen
Authored, authored, it's.
00:16:35:16 - 00:16:54:02
Clark
Curated and it is meticulous. And every image is there on purpose because, you know, somebody put it there and that's the director. Ultimately, obviously it's a collaborative art form and I'm not I don't mean to diminish that. It takes hundreds of people or thousands of people sometimes to make a film like this. But ultimately the director is at the helm.
00:16:54:02 - 00:16:57:09
Clark
It's a director's medium. It's like television is a writer's medium.
00:16:57:17 - 00:16:58:15
Cullen
But I think, you know.
00:16:58:17 - 00:17:00:18
Clark
You are not that you are not.
00:17:00:18 - 00:17:13:23
Cullen
To enter to even more specify. With DePalma, it's like the split diopter in this movie, there's a lot of split diopter shots, which I love. A lot of people actually don't don't like the split diopter that much because they think it kind of is too in your face. But I love it.
00:17:14:07 - 00:17:20:21
Clark
Yeah, some people think it's up to see if it draws attention to itself, that it's not seamless, that you know. And I love it, too.
00:17:20:21 - 00:17:24:15
Cullen
I love what's Let's talk a bit about Dante, the cinematography of this film. Well.
00:17:25:00 - 00:17:42:17
Clark
You know, before we do, let me I want to there's real quick not to not to you off, because I want to get to that, too, because there's some really interesting stuff in the cinematography. But just while we're kind of talking a little bit about context, about De Palma being a part of this movie Brats group and, you know, and we've hinted at it a little bit, I think you brought up Hitchcock.
00:17:42:21 - 00:17:54:04
Clark
I think it's really important to mention that this film and much of De Palma's work is extreme, or maybe all frankly, of his work is heavily influenced by Hitchcock.
00:17:54:07 - 00:17:56:06
Cullen
Oh, and you can more so than anybody else.
00:17:56:06 - 00:18:17:01
Clark
I think probably more so than any other major film maker I'm familiar with. Obviously, Hitchcock has inspired countless filmmakers, but as far as people of a certain stature, I can't think of anybody who's been more influence than and and that's a great thing. If you love Hitchcock and I'm a big fan of Hitchcock, so, you know, Oh, you know, yeah.
00:18:17:01 - 00:18:30:17
Clark
I mean, I mean, but he's even made almost straight up recreations. I mean, for example, I told you I just watched Body Double. I mean that's. Yeah. Which is know it's practically a remake of Vertigo in some senses. Certainly an homage. I mean, which is.
00:18:30:17 - 00:18:40:05
Cullen
What I think is so interesting about De Palma is that his style there isn't. It's not just the visual cues of Hitchcock, but the visual language of.
00:18:40:05 - 00:18:40:16
Clark
Him And this.
00:18:40:17 - 00:19:00:08
Cullen
It's the storytelling, too. It's the story that that I think that that's what separates De Palma from so many other people that, you know, he's Spielberg is someone that is often in that group cited as being similar to Hitchcock as well, which I agree with. There's certainly elements of Spielberg's filmmaking that that definitely he will even say, you know, I got that from Hitchcock.
00:19:00:08 - 00:19:10:09
Cullen
Right? But I always think it's funny that people kind of leave DePalma out in those conversations because I think De Palma ten times more than than is is is a Hitchcock protege.
00:19:10:19 - 00:19:27:12
Clark
So and the thing is, is that he can back it up to you know so it's it's one thing to to say that you know you're influenced by Hitchcock or whatever X, Y, Z filmmaker. And it's one thing to say that this is an homage or it's one thing to kind of steal. But look, you've got to have the the skill to back that up.
00:19:27:12 - 00:19:46:01
Clark
And I think De Palma really does. I mean, and this film that we're discussing here, or will eventually discuss as we kind of lay down some general context. But but I mean, talk about, you know, this film is a masterclass in anticipation and suspense.
00:19:46:01 - 00:19:46:13
Cullen
God, yeah.
00:19:46:14 - 00:20:15:18
Clark
And building suspense in and bringing the audience so actively into the process of imagining what's about to happen, what we know is going to happen, anticipating what's going to happen. I mean, this whole movie from the first scene, the setup where we have the girls tormenting Kerry in the locker room, everything that happens after that, up until the the bucket of blood seen and that and it's immediate after mass at prom.
00:20:15:23 - 00:20:20:02
Clark
I mean the entire movie is building up. We know what's about to happen. Well, I.
00:20:20:02 - 00:20:28:20
Cullen
Think you describe it sort of it's like a train wreck in slow motion. Like it's like you're just you know, that all of the all the pieces are set and you're just waiting for them to collide.
00:20:28:20 - 00:20:31:00
Clark
And he sets it up so beautifully. And then.
00:20:31:00 - 00:20:32:12
Cullen
I'm sorry. Go ahead.
00:20:32:12 - 00:20:49:19
Clark
No, I was just going to say even the mechanics of it and maybe this is a good segue way to go into cinematography if you're ready to go there. But just, you know, everything is motivated and, you know, and there are some complex camera moves here. There's some really interesting and you talked about Diopter shots, but they're there for a reason.
00:20:50:03 - 00:21:17:09
Clark
It was this wonderful and I think one of the maybe the best one or the diopter shot that really stood out to me it's especially beautiful was the scene where Tommy is having his Plager ized poetry read in class, and we have Tommy in focus on one half of the screen and he's sitting in front of Kerry and she is a few seats back and we see her in focus as well.
00:21:17:09 - 00:21:34:17
Clark
And the teacher is reading this poem and the teacher asks for critique from the class. And Kerry says that it's beautiful. And then the teacher goes on to ridicule her for saying, that's one hell of a critique. You know, beautiful is not a critique. What are you talking about? But you can see there's so many things that we're doing here.
00:21:34:17 - 00:21:58:06
Clark
We can see Kerry's reaction to the ridicule. We see Tommy actually genuinely reacting to her, saying something nice about him. And that sets up something that's really important that, you know, Tommy actually is is like a decent human being, it seems like. And he actually does really, genuinely care for Kerry and he's actually is having a good time.
00:21:58:06 - 00:21:58:18
Clark
But from.
00:21:58:18 - 00:21:59:12
Cullen
The empathy for.
00:21:59:12 - 00:22:18:00
Clark
Him and and then, of course, we see that he is nonetheless a victim that doesn't save him. He's actually knocked out by the bucket. So his his own friends take him out. And that's an interesting kind of, you know, some dramatic irony there. But but it's just one example. I mean, it's a great shot, but it's not just there to be there.
00:22:18:17 - 00:22:52:04
Cullen
Well, and then there's the other part where she comes out of the the prayer closet thing while her mother's sewing. And it's like you just your mother never looks back at her. She just keeps sewing and is doing this. It's and again, I think I think so. One of the things that is so great about the split diopter is that I you know, as a director, I love to play things out in kind of longer, uninterrupted takes, not necessarily oners per se, but just allowing actors to perform and, you know, Master and the split diopter is a great tool for that because we have two actors who are separated by a lot of space and
00:22:52:04 - 00:23:07:06
Cullen
one of them is a much closer to the camera than the other. You kind of have two options or three really. You can either stop down the lens a ton, so you really deep depth of field, which means you need way more light. Yeah. Or you can rack focus back and forth between the two, which can be difficult if they're overlapping dialog or just distract.
00:23:07:07 - 00:23:08:02
Cullen
And it's going to really and.
00:23:08:02 - 00:23:10:01
Clark
It means something different to do that.
00:23:10:01 - 00:23:11:08
Cullen
Exactly. It feels different.
00:23:11:08 - 00:23:19:08
Clark
You're pushing, pulling, pushing, pulling. You're still not. Yeah, splitting focus simultaneously. It's a jumping back and forth. The focus. Yeah.
00:23:19:09 - 00:23:39:10
Cullen
Which is why I've always thought the idea that the split diopter is distracting or something like that is weird because to me it's the least distracting way to do that because you're, you're letting it. You're just letting it sit. You don't really have to. Do, you know, any movement of camera afterwards. And you can let the actors do their thing, which I think is really you know, I'm assuming that's one of the reasons De Palma probably likes it a lot as well.
00:23:39:10 - 00:24:02:04
Cullen
And and just, you know, as we get into the visuals of the movie specifically, I also want to say that while De Palma is incredibly influenced by by Hitchcock and very clearly so, he is so much of his own flavor in his movies as well like that, that it's it's not that De Palma is taking from Hitchcock style and using it everywhere.
00:24:02:13 - 00:24:08:09
Cullen
It's just rather that Hitchcock or rather De Palma, seems almost like a natural evolution of Hitchcock's.
00:24:08:21 - 00:24:09:05
Clark
Yeah.
00:24:09:11 - 00:24:34:04
Cullen
In that he brought a lot of his own tendencies and voice to his filmmaking while looking back at someone like Hitchcock and going, Okay, how does he the Why were Hitchcock's movies so effective and how did he do that? And I think again, which really makes me love department, which is why I've always really liked him, is is this idea that he does Yeah he just kind of analyzes that stuff and goes like, Why does that work?
00:24:34:04 - 00:24:44:15
Cullen
What makes that tick? And, you know, how can I play the audience up like that in the same way that Hitchcock did? So I think it's it's really remarkable how effective a filmmaker he is in that way. Yeah.
00:24:45:02 - 00:24:45:17
Clark
Yeah. And and.
00:24:45:20 - 00:24:46:01
Cullen
Then.
00:24:46:09 - 00:25:07:01
Clark
And I just I mean, I've heard obviously, I don't know from firsthand experience. It would be wonderful to work on set with the polymer, but I've not gotten to do that. But I mean, it's by all accounts, it sounds like he is extremely meticulous that he, you know, now and this is antithesis to, you know, Herzog, which is kind of the roots of this podcast.
00:25:07:01 - 00:25:34:09
Clark
We, you know, and our origination was that we were discussing with Werner Herzog specifically and exclusively. Of course, we've moved away from that now, and we talk about all different kinds of filmmakers and films. But yeah, but apparently DePalma storyboards his entire films and interesting, extremely meticulous and detail oriented towards, you know, and you have to be I mean, I think that, you know, he's he's clearly extremely focused on the visual.
00:25:34:17 - 00:25:55:20
Clark
But what I love to see, though, is that not to the detriment of performance, which which can happen a lot of times to a director who is more technically inclined, who's more camera focused, who's more visual specific, a lot of times performances can falter, but they don't here, which is great. But yeah, I just you know, you're right.
00:25:55:20 - 00:26:16:07
Clark
I think when you said that it's like an evolution. I think we're all look, we're all inspired by, you know, it's like we saw somebody work when we were a kid that kind of made us say, Hey, I want to do that. Right? Yeah. So? So I think everybody hopefully you go through a process where you take your inspiration and you add to it and you become your own thing.
00:26:16:07 - 00:26:21:04
Clark
But that kind of core of what you were inspired by is always going to be present in your work.
00:26:21:04 - 00:26:21:20
Cullen
And yeah.
00:26:22:07 - 00:26:23:18
Clark
Nothing wrong with that at all.
00:26:23:23 - 00:26:37:14
Cullen
No, I think I don't think you should engage with that rather than trying to. You know, I think DePalma does that beautifully. Yeah. Instead of trying to, like, you know, splinter himself from it and go, I can't do that because it's not wholly original. But, you know, Yeah, yeah. Well, I.
00:26:37:23 - 00:26:39:11
Clark
I mean, I just think.
00:26:39:11 - 00:26:39:16
Cullen
You know.
00:26:39:20 - 00:27:00:20
Clark
Yeah, speaking of wholly original, I mean, you know, real quickly, I want to also toss in because I think this is kind of an interesting little tidbit. So I think most people probably know, but this this film is an adaptation of Stephen King novel. Mm hmm. And I did not know this, but it actually was the first novel Stephen King had published.
00:27:00:20 - 00:27:17:00
Clark
Now, it wasn't the first one he wrote. It was the fourth book that he had written, but it was the first to be published. And I think that's kind of interesting because nowadays, of course, we know Steve. I mean, Stephen King is Stephen King is like when he writes a book. I mean, it's Stephen King. I mean, he's made his own darn genre practically.
00:27:17:06 - 00:27:37:14
Clark
Yeah, This is the first book he had ever had published. So he was just some guy with a book. And I think it's pretty interesting that that this was this the story that DePalma chose to tell. I think that's I just think that's kind of interesting. Mm hmm. Clearly, it was a good choice. And clearly, Stephen King has gone on to be a profound talent.
00:27:38:03 - 00:27:39:12
Clark
Yeah, but I just think that's an.
00:27:39:12 - 00:27:41:13
Cullen
Interesting sort of genre onto his own.
00:27:41:13 - 00:27:53:13
Clark
And yeah, it's just an interesting tidbit. All right. So with that, yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about, I mean, the cinematography. It's you know, there were two two cinematographers on this film. I did not know that mean either.
00:27:53:13 - 00:27:54:18
Cullen
Yeah, only one is credited.
00:27:55:01 - 00:28:21:15
Clark
Only one is credited. And I'm not terribly familiar with either of the two these DP's. But we we start off with and I hope I don't butcher this name is Audrey Mank off ski and apparently there was some kind of conflict probably a personality issue between Palma and him, but he shot the kind of the first half of the film, and then we've got Mario Tosi, who shot this latter half of the film.
00:28:22:12 - 00:28:25:09
Clark
And I think he's the credited cinematographer. Yes.
00:28:25:11 - 00:28:26:03
Cullen
Mario Tosi.
00:28:26:03 - 00:29:05:15
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. If I'm correct. So I don't know a ton about those two. Mario doesn't seem to have shot a lot of things, at least that was released here in North America. I know he's Italian, and so maybe he has some other work that was more regional or local that hadn't been released. But I know that. De Palma I mean, again, we go back to he's so visually focused and so hands on and does I mean, he's designing shots, so I feel like I go out on a limb and maybe take a guess here that De Palma is more than, you know, like more than 50% responsible for the look of the film.
00:29:05:15 - 00:29:10:17
Clark
I'm going to guess that De Palma did probably 80% of what we see, at least. I mean, which.
00:29:10:17 - 00:29:17:12
Cullen
Is likely why you can't see a difference between the two. You know, there's no jump of suddenly this feels like it's shot by somebody else.
00:29:17:18 - 00:29:19:19
Clark
Right. And no matter.
00:29:19:19 - 00:29:42:05
Cullen
Even down to the techniques, I mean, again, we I think you made the joke earlier, but that this movie has you know what I described in our notes is like a super promised because May doesn't know. And a promised filter is just a it's like a kind of a fogged piece of glass, very lightly fogged piece of glass that you'd put in front in a in a matte box or just sometimes their screw ons in front of a camera lens.
00:29:42:05 - 00:30:07:01
Cullen
And it basically blooms all of the highlights and softens out highlights and makes them look kind of nice. I have a one eighth promised that I even think is too much. Sometimes this seems like it was like a one over two or something like that. Yeah, seems it's intense. Yeah, it's it's, there's a lot of gloom, not something that I would necessarily do on something that I was making, but I actually don't dislike the look of this movie at all.
00:30:07:01 - 00:30:36:02
Cullen
I think that it actually looks it fits in honestly. What's funny is that it's like that look of that very bloom soft kind of look resonates a lot with the the music which we'll get into later that like soft flute it kind of matches that look really well. But yeah so there's a lot of like very soft not necessarily soft because of necessarily the stock or the film grain or anything like that, but rather just because it's a very blue me.
00:30:36:02 - 00:30:48:12
Cullen
The highlights shot on Eastman 152 54 which is of course another film that's not made these days, but has a very distinctive look. The Reds are super saturated.
00:30:48:18 - 00:30:49:04
Clark
Which is it's.
00:30:49:04 - 00:30:49:09
Cullen
Worse.
00:30:49:09 - 00:31:05:06
Clark
There's no respect for the blood. I mean, yeah, it's yeah, it's beautiful. And, you know, I did I just because I hadn't looked and I wasn't for sure. But yeah so that's that is sadly a discontinued stock. Of course there are only a few film stocks that have survived to this point.
00:31:05:06 - 00:31:07:13
Cullen
And even though they're all contemporary stocks.
00:31:07:13 - 00:31:26:06
Clark
They're all contemporary different stocks. Yeah, but, but yeah, I, I think the bloom works well, too. I think the promised works. I think that, you know, especially this is such a surreal film. This is almost like a fairy tale, you know? It is It's such a little self-contained. It's very small in a story.
00:31:26:06 - 00:31:48:08
Cullen
Dependent on trajectory of the plot. Like it's it's not obviously plot heavy, but no, in terms of every scene is forwarding the events in some way, which I think is you know, again, a really it makes this movie really tight and really neat and compact. Yeah. But also doesn't I don't know about you. I don't I don't think it ever feels rushed or that it's any over the head.
00:31:49:09 - 00:32:16:17
Clark
I mean, I appreciate the amount of time that that DePalma takes in the first hour building up to the prom scene. I mean, we see all this you know, we see obviously, we immediately our hearts go out to Carrie. We have this really I mean, frankly, disturbing scene with her being bullied so horrifically about something that is, of course, you know, totally normal and no reason to bully.
00:32:16:17 - 00:32:39:06
Clark
But, yeah, my goodness, the the fact that she was unprepared for her first period and didn't even really know what was going on because her mother hadn't told her anything about it, had kept her so cloistered off from the world. I mean, I can only fathom how how devastating it would be to go through that. I mean, I was bullied for a few years in junior high school until I got into high school.
00:32:39:06 - 00:32:58:16
Clark
And thankfully, thankfully, that changed. But my God, it was like gym class was like your worst nightmare. If if you were like being bully dude, gym class was like the last place in the world you want to be is in a locker room full of kids who are picking on you. It's the I never went through anything of the magnitude that she goes through, her character goes through in this film.
00:32:58:16 - 00:33:18:00
Clark
But oh my gosh. So my heart goes out to her immediately. Yeah. For instance, sympathy. And then the entire film, we see just the mechanization as the wheels, the gears, turning everything building to what's going to happen to her. And we know exactly what's going to happen to her. I mean, it's it's clear as day. It's not like there's something there's.
00:33:18:00 - 00:33:19:15
Cullen
Almost like a prophecy. Yeah, It's it.
00:33:19:15 - 00:33:38:05
Clark
We know that she is going to be torment it in a horrific public way at prom. And you know it from that instant that the the other kids in class who are who are sentenced to detention because of what they did to Carrie. And of course, they blame her. And so they feel like they need to get back at her.
00:33:39:00 - 00:33:40:04
Clark
And so they devise this.
00:33:40:04 - 00:33:42:15
Cullen
One in particular to it's the one girl.
00:33:42:15 - 00:34:02:09
Clark
Nancy Allen. Nancy played. Yes. The character played by Nancy Allen. So but but I mean, to go back to some cinematography, I mean, one of the other things so you talked about this feeling like a really feeling like a film from the seventies. You know, I think the promised kind of gives it a sense of the seventies, a little bit to me.
00:34:02:13 - 00:34:09:07
Clark
Not that promised was like a thing that every film used in the seventies, but I think in conjunction with There's a lot of zooms.
00:34:09:15 - 00:34:11:11
Cullen
Oh, yeah, And I love the Zooms in this movie.
00:34:11:11 - 00:34:28:17
Clark
I look and you and I've talked about this, you know, and it's I don't know why, but especially when I was first kind of starting out, you know, I would I remember, you know, I first few sets that I would get on and I'm still learning the ropes and I'm kind of figuring out what's what. And I'm like over there talking to the DP or something.
00:34:28:17 - 00:34:39:05
Clark
And, you know, I'm used to using Zoom lenses on my still cameras right before I ever got, you know, had and and on camcorders, you know, not professional cameras not yeah like.
00:34:39:05 - 00:34:40:04
Cullen
A Sony handicap.
00:34:40:05 - 00:35:09:01
Clark
When I was a kid, I had camcorders and of course they all had zooms. They all had zooms. And so I'm like, oh, this is, you know, I'm used to shoot like all my little home videos and everything I'd shot with a zoom my whole life. And, you know, I remember just saying the word on a set, you know, would just like send, you know, a DP off on a rant that would last 30 minutes about how, you know, I wouldn't touch a zoom lens with it, you know, ten foot pole, like, how dare you even, you know, I only shoot with primes.
00:35:09:01 - 00:35:09:15
Clark
Primes, which I.
00:35:09:15 - 00:35:10:14
Cullen
Think is so funny.
00:35:10:19 - 00:35:11:01
Clark
And.
00:35:11:01 - 00:35:12:10
Cullen
I'm like, compensating for something.
00:35:12:14 - 00:35:28:14
Clark
I had. Yeah, Yeah. No kidding, huh? And I'm like, like, I don't get it. I don't get it. You know, I think. I think zooms are not only do they have a huge logistical advantage, obviously there's drawbacks. I mean, they're slower and there's other more.
00:35:28:14 - 00:35:29:13
Cullen
Expensive for more.
00:35:29:14 - 00:35:51:06
Clark
Expensive. And so I get all that. But my gosh, I mean, it's sad to me that the zoom is not used hardly at all. It's almost all it's almost fallen from the grammar of filmmaking to this day. But I think zooms are used to great effect. They they do such a wonderful job in these and these shots of pointing our attention to specific things.
00:35:51:13 - 00:36:00:08
Clark
They really do a fantastic job of reframing. And when you combine that with the really fluid camera movement that we've got here and.
00:36:00:23 - 00:36:04:17
Cullen
And diplomas like, you know, really, really world class blocking.
00:36:04:20 - 00:36:33:20
Clark
It's world class blocking. I mean, it's basically we're editing camera and not to take away from Paul Hirsch the job that he does and Ed, especially during the prom scene with the split screen. Oh, the cuts maze. I mean, a that's a that's really I mean, that's extraordinary work. Extraordinary. But I just I love that, you know, when you can kind of edit in camera, when you can read, you know, you can compose new scenes, you can move with characters, you can follow elements of the story.
00:36:33:20 - 00:36:53:20
Clark
I think one of the most beautiful combinations of movement zoom in this film is when we're at the prom and the bucket of blood is placed over her head and we have this tracking shot where we're like, you know, we're following characters, we're walking through the gym. Then we come to like the side of the stage. We can see the rope going up.
00:36:53:20 - 00:37:04:12
Clark
We follow it up to the bucket we like. It's like we can see the entire, you know, mechanism of how this is going to take place. What are those little like? Is it like a what are the we're.
00:37:04:15 - 00:37:06:01
Cullen
Over a Goldberg machine? Yeah.
00:37:06:10 - 00:37:20:12
Clark
It's almost like we're kind of the camera's like following the pieces of that, you know, It's like, okay, this is going to happen and this is going to happen and this is going to happen. And then, you know, and we come up to the camera, we're on a crane, we come up and we're at the level of the bucket.
00:37:20:17 - 00:37:35:09
Clark
And then we see Carrie and Tommy, like off in the end in the distance. And then we have this beautiful zoom past the bucket right onto them. Just is so many different story elements together. Extraordinary shot. Yeah.
00:37:37:01 - 00:38:06:07
Cullen
No, I agree. It's again, it's it's one of those things where you like you said you so rarely kind of see it these days where you're it's like a dance between which I think there are some really important elements the zoom the camera movement itself and the movement of the actors and the way that they all play out together I think is really remarkable and very similar to kind of almost the way that Paul Schrader or not Paul Schrader, Robert Altman.
00:38:07:02 - 00:38:07:09
Clark
Sort.
00:38:07:11 - 00:38:35:18
Cullen
Of can compose a lot of scenes like that, like he loves to use like a moving camera to recompose and to almost make scenes seem like they're wonders when they're not. And yeah, so I think that that's quite interesting that that DePalma does it here not surprising if you've seen any other DePalma movies but like even up to you know mission impossible is is shot very similarly the first Mission Impossible which of course DePalma did and is my favorite of the series.
00:38:36:00 - 00:38:36:18
Clark
Yeah I can't.
00:38:36:20 - 00:38:53:08
Cullen
But but you get you get a lot of like I like directors like that who have such like an auteur status of you know, you can tell that no matter what genre they're doing, they're they're, they're changing themselves too to fit well, but they're at the same time there's still those little tidbits that are that are in there.
00:38:53:14 - 00:39:29:23
Clark
Well, and I think the other thing, too, is you know, especially with with this, the rise in television that we have now and we've talked about this probably a dozen times throughout these episodes. But, you know, we're exposed to such different content now. And I think sadly, you know, another thing that I think separates cinema from TV or, you know, or from video or from content is that there's really a focus on visual storytelling, on the camera, having a being a character, having a voice, being a part of the storytelling and I think true cinema.
00:39:29:23 - 00:39:51:16
Clark
And I think this is an example, you know, the camera is absolutely vital. What it does and how it does it is, is just as important a character as any as any other in the film. Yes. And I think we've just, you know, and, you know, films ultimately, hopefully you have more budget, you have especially more time. And again, it's a director driven medium.
00:39:51:16 - 00:40:11:20
Clark
So you can do these kind of things. Sadly, I think a lot of filmmakers don't do this because I think we've we've gotten used to TV where it's too shot the shoulder over the shoulder, boom. It's just it you know, the camera's not doing anything. The camera is just sitting there.
00:40:11:23 - 00:40:20:00
Cullen
Well, even even like I think something people forget so much about and that I think that that Schrader plays. I keep saying Schrader.
00:40:20:09 - 00:40:23:05
Clark
De Palma you want to talk about Schrader? You want to.
00:40:23:21 - 00:40:49:04
Cullen
You've got to do Taxi Driver next. But yeah but that that De Palma does is and again when it's like very much in line with that you're saying is that is that placement and positioning from camera that that how far are people from camera. There's a lot of shots in this movie where the people delivering dialog are the people that are the center of attention are actually quite far from camera or sometimes again, with these split diopter shots where it's like people are having a conversation looking the same director direction.
00:40:49:14 - 00:41:09:23
Cullen
One of them is a foot from the camera, one of them is 50 feet from the camera. And you've got these, you know, even when they're doing the gym exercises that side, you've got the coach that's standing right at camera. And then the the girl, Chris, who's kind of the orchestrator of the prank complaining and she's like complaining in the background and they're having this conversation while they're so far from each other.
00:41:09:23 - 00:41:32:13
Cullen
And I love it. And playing, I think, again, just like the distance from camera can tell you so much whether an actor or a character moves towards camera or we move towards them, whether, you know, the way, the speed in which they move, it's things like that that I think some people will just forget about and kind of skim over because it's like, okay, let's set up a camera or you know, what's even more common these days?
00:41:32:13 - 00:42:00:05
Cullen
Let's set up three cameras for all the coverage in one shot in one take, and we've got what we need to to see what happens in the scene. Yeah, we're moving on. It's not nobody. Well, and I don't see nobody, you know, in a literal sense, but very few mainstream directors that you would be able to see on a big screen today take the time to go, okay, like, how can I use the relationship between all of these elements, all these moving pieces in a scene to tell a story?
00:42:00:21 - 00:42:28:16
Cullen
I think we talked about this before, too, that the idea that like a lot of movies, I think the way that you can tell whether or not a film is or a director is doing their job as well as they should be is if you watch a movie on mute. Yeah. And while there of course is a like important dialog in any movie, and dialog is important and storytelling audibly is important, I think this this is also a movie that if you watch us on mute, you would still get a gist of what's going on, what the characters.
00:42:28:16 - 00:42:30:09
Clark
Oh, no question. Who's doing.
00:42:30:09 - 00:42:30:18
Cullen
What.
00:42:30:20 - 00:42:56:08
Clark
Yeah, no question 100%. And and I know you know, too, from just watching, you know, DePalma interviews, hearing him speak, I mean, it's it's it is such an important part. It's such a huge part of what he focuses on. And I just it's it's just really wonderful to see and it's an inspiration to me. And it was it's something that I definitely strive for in my work.
00:42:57:02 - 00:43:14:21
Clark
And I just I feel sadly I mean, I don't know what to say. I feel like I mean, it's not to say that cameras don't move in other films. I mean, sure, they move, but there's just a difference. And I maybe, you know, I could probably do a better job of articulating it than I am. But like, take, you know, like your average Avengers movie or Marvel movie.
00:43:14:21 - 00:43:18:09
Clark
I mean, the cameras all over place and all over the place in those films, it's.
00:43:18:11 - 00:43:20:04
Cullen
Certain well, half the time it's virtual, too.
00:43:20:16 - 00:43:46:17
Clark
Well, right. And you're right, probably more than half, probably three quarters of the time. There's not even a camera actually there. But but it's it's really about movement with purpose and and specific intent showing. Yeah. And I just remember, too, and this is something that Herzog and De Palma definitely do agree on. So unlike storyboarding, that coverage is is a naughty word, you know, and I totally agree with this.
00:43:46:17 - 00:44:04:09
Clark
And I know people and I've worked with people who are the exact opposite. And it makes me crazy. And it's not a way that I ever want to work. And, you know, frankly, it's that's one of the first things I kind of find out about it. If there's a cinematographer I want to work with and they love coverage, then it's not a good match.
00:44:04:21 - 00:44:30:14
Clark
I believe that you go in and you have an extremely specific idea of what you're wanting to do and you're executing that exact specific thing to go in and just shoot, just get a bunch of generic crap. Okay, we're going to get this extra wide and then a wide and then, you know, and just we're going to cover it from every different possible angle and then, okay, we'll have all these options when we get into editing, and then we can just do whatever we want that always turns out crap.
00:44:30:14 - 00:44:32:19
Clark
I feel like that always turns out me up.
00:44:33:05 - 00:44:54:19
Cullen
And I think it's actually fun. A personal anecdote that I was when I was shooting on set last week on the shortlist, there was one scene that was that was all entirely it was a single shot conversation between three characters at a table and in the shot list. I had written as a secondary shot. Get one insert shot, just a piece of coverage of one of the actors, just in case I need to cut to it.
00:44:54:19 - 00:45:08:16
Cullen
And we did the scene. I think we did like three or four takes of it in. The initial set up that master and I looked at it and I looked at the my friend Adam, who was my first A.D., and I said, We're cutting that. I don't I don't need the coverage. And he was like, Are you sure you don't want for safety?
00:45:08:16 - 00:45:24:10
Cullen
And I was like, No, I don't need it. Like, I only put it there just in case I needed it. But I know for a fact that I don't need it because it would completely kill the rhythm of the scene. And I'm not in the business of just taking shots because I'm worried about something. You know, I'm in the business of planning.
00:45:24:18 - 00:45:35:05
Cullen
So. So yeah, I just I just think it's funny that we're talking about all this stuff about coverage and stuff, and it was an experience I just had. But let's perhaps do you want to get into maybe some some of the performances?
00:45:35:08 - 00:45:36:02
Clark
Absolutely.
00:45:36:02 - 00:45:42:02
Cullen
It's like this is basic in this movie. Who is, of course, Carrie, who is a wonderful, wonderful actor.
00:45:42:02 - 00:45:42:16
Clark
Oh, my gosh.
00:45:42:19 - 00:45:46:22
Cullen
Really great. She's incredible in this movie. And how old was she? Do you know how old she was?
00:45:46:22 - 00:45:48:14
Clark
And this boy, she's young.
00:45:48:20 - 00:45:51:12
Cullen
She's really she was young. And Badlands, I think she was only.
00:45:52:09 - 00:45:53:03
Clark
She might have been able.
00:45:53:03 - 00:45:54:01
Cullen
To shoot that one in.
00:45:54:05 - 00:46:18:19
Clark
The Badlands. She was extremely young in Badlands. We can check that out real quick. But while you're looking that up, I mean, yet, you know, so Sissy Spacek as Carrie White is amazing. Piper Laurie as her mother. White is extraordinary. And, you know, both of them received Academy Award nominations for acting, which was really I mean, unheard of in a horror movie, a film.
00:46:18:21 - 00:46:39:11
Clark
And even to this day, I mean, that's that's like, wow, you know? Yeah. So, you know, definitely. But I thought all the performances were good. You know, John Travolta has a little supporting role in here. I think it's great. Amy Irving, I think this is her very first film. Of course, she would go on marry Spielberg. It's become kind of closely knit.
00:46:39:11 - 00:46:45:12
Clark
Yeah, but they were all I thought all the performances were really. Yes.
00:46:45:12 - 00:47:12:10
Cullen
It was one of the things that I sort of I'd mentioned beforehand to when we were we were discussing the film, which was just that it was like, No, buddy, there's no weak link here. No, they honestly all feel like very authentic high schoolers, even though they are much, much older. Yeah, Yeah. And I think it works because I think in this sense, unlike Grease, like John Travolta, I don't think is supposed to be I think he's supposed to be her boyfriend to his older boyfriend.
00:47:12:11 - 00:47:12:17
Clark
Yeah.
00:47:12:18 - 00:47:13:06
Cullen
Yeah.
00:47:13:22 - 00:47:15:05
Clark
Because he's never in school.
00:47:15:12 - 00:47:38:20
Cullen
No. Yeah. And he he just kind of shows up to the thing and, you know, but he but but everyone else, I mean, again, despite looking older, there's a really real relationship between everyone, which is kind of rare to find in, in like high school drama movies, which is not, of course, what this is, But there's elements of that.
00:47:38:22 - 00:47:39:07
Clark
Well, there's.
00:47:39:12 - 00:48:06:22
Cullen
This film, and I think it's really rare to find situations like that that feel real. And I think what makes this movie feel so real is the brutality and the authenticity of the performances and just to pull in the direction. So you have Carrie, of course, again, in that opening scene that like horrific bullying that she faces, you've just got this very raw feeling of and all the performances are incredibly just grounded down to earth.
00:48:07:06 - 00:48:27:01
Cullen
They they are doing what they are doing. And then when they're in detention and they all start arguing, of course, there's element of it that's heightened because it's a film, but it also still feels like you really buy into it. Or at least I did. I really, you know, I felt like these were real people and that the drama of it made sense.
00:48:27:02 - 00:48:45:00
Cullen
It it's authentic. It feels, you know, genuine, which is, I think in huge part, owing to the fact that these actors were all, you know, really great and correct me if I'm wrong, most of them were pretty much no names at this point, with the exception of Sissy Spacek, who would been and and of course, some of the adults.
00:48:45:00 - 00:48:46:00
Clark
This was her breakout.
00:48:46:00 - 00:48:47:12
Cullen
This was this was yeah, that.
00:48:47:20 - 00:48:48:00
Clark
Was.
00:48:48:05 - 00:48:50:08
Cullen
Something that made her big. Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:50:13 - 00:49:19:14
Clark
Now, most of the team definitely had it. Yeah. Piper Laurie definitely had a substantial career before this film, but I mean, as a matter of fact, well, she came off a long break, which is interesting, you know, Piper Laurie So she hadn't done a film since 61. And the last film she had done was The Hustler, and she had been a actually validated for an Academy Award for Best Actress and BAFTA gold, you know, like New York Film Critics Circle Award.
00:49:19:14 - 00:49:30:04
Clark
I mean, so she got a lot of, you know, a lot of accolade for her role in The Hustler. But that's 1961. So we're fast forwarding now to 76.
00:49:30:21 - 00:49:33:06
Cullen
Wow. So she took a magic break.
00:49:33:06 - 00:50:07:06
Clark
She took Yeah. Yes, she took a Malick break of 15 years. So but she had definitely had experience. But I think she's fantastic here. I mean, the and I love the choices that she made. So, you know, I mean, first and foremost, I mean, she it's a you know, she's got to play this really challenging role as a mother to like to communicate authentically this this like religious obsessed, repressed, you know, force that has ground carry into this.
00:50:07:15 - 00:50:15:21
Clark
I mean, this tiny, tiny little ball of a human being that, you know, is just so profoundly repressed and oppressed.
00:50:15:21 - 00:50:17:06
Cullen
And reactionary and.
00:50:17:13 - 00:50:44:07
Clark
Oh, and it's just so terrifying. And she did such a wonderful job. And then in that, oh, my gosh, the final you know, in the kind of the epilog, if you will, kind of almost of after, you know, after the prom event where Carrie Burns the school down and we have all of this action there, she Carrie comes back to the house and she comes back and she wants to be embraced by her mother because it's kind of like what you said happened did happen.
00:50:44:07 - 00:51:05:01
Clark
You said they were going to laugh at me and I guess you were right. And I you know, I have nothing. Can you hold me and oh, my her mother stabs her in the back, literally literally stabs her in a back. But you believe it. And it's like it's hard to pull off, you know, But you also have some sympathy because you wonder like, I mean, you get little pieces, right?
00:51:05:01 - 00:51:09:17
Clark
It's like Carrie's father left the family and the mother has had.
00:51:09:18 - 00:51:11:00
Cullen
Them out of wedlock. Yeah.
00:51:11:04 - 00:51:22:04
Clark
Devised this like this. This idea that that Satan took her husband away. So, I mean, she herself is is repressed and is just, you know, self.
00:51:22:07 - 00:51:22:19
Cullen
Loathing.
00:51:22:23 - 00:51:35:14
Clark
Self-Loathing. And we feel that and it and and so we have sympathy for her. She's not just this two dimensional or one dimensional cardboard cut out kind of character. Right. Which it could easily have gone into. Yeah.
00:51:35:14 - 00:51:40:14
Cullen
And it's well, the new that the remake is very much that. I think Julianne Moore plays the and it's just quite.
00:51:40:19 - 00:52:02:18
Clark
And she's a good actress. Yeah it's not like she's a hack. I mean she's a great actress so goes to show it's not easy. It's really not easy. So we have sympathy for her. She feels like a real character and we've all seen flavors of that in other people or maybe even in ourselves. Not to that extreme, of course, but but all I think it's it's a very relatable kind of feeling in general.
00:52:03:01 - 00:52:06:23
Clark
But then that in Where she's crucified by Carrie with.
00:52:07:01 - 00:52:07:11
Cullen
Oh God.
00:52:07:15 - 00:52:15:17
Clark
The telepathic Li set cutlery, you know, and she's literally crucified with her arms outstretched.
00:52:16:00 - 00:52:17:19
Cullen
And then nailed to the doorframe.
00:52:17:22 - 00:52:22:17
Clark
And she plays it as an ecstasy. Yeah. As opposed to a pain.
00:52:23:11 - 00:52:25:14
Cullen
And it's like she's fulfilling her purpose.
00:52:25:14 - 00:52:37:02
Clark
And she's fulfilling her martyrdom and and I know from watching some beats on this that that was her suggestion to DePalma, you know, hey.
00:52:37:08 - 00:52:37:22
Cullen
Interesting.
00:52:37:22 - 00:52:47:11
Clark
In, you know, instead of just playing this straight, like, oh, I'm in pain, what if this were something that actually gave me pleasure and God, does it work?
00:52:47:11 - 00:52:54:10
Cullen
Because the music in that moment is so great in the Mothers over that final confrontation. The music is really.
00:52:55:01 - 00:52:55:17
Clark
It is the.
00:52:55:17 - 00:52:56:17
Cullen
Cherry on top.
00:52:56:22 - 00:52:58:13
Clark
Let's talk about that, too, a little bit. Yes.
00:52:58:13 - 00:53:17:08
Cullen
So there's actually an interesting tidbit about the music, too, that you had found out, which was that De Palma initially wanted Bernard Herrmann, who worked with his two previous films and who was scoring Taxi Driver this time. But Herrmann, who was, of course, known as the Hitchcock's, you know, go to composer who I love. I love Bernard Herrmann.
00:53:17:08 - 00:53:21:09
Cullen
So much. He passed away in the recording sessions, not actually in, but during.
00:53:21:09 - 00:53:21:15
Clark
Right.
00:53:21:16 - 00:53:27:20
Cullen
And the recording sessions, the final kind of mixing of Taxi Driver. So DePalma couldn't get them. So instead it is.
00:53:29:23 - 00:53:30:12
Clark
Piano de.
00:53:30:13 - 00:53:48:12
Cullen
Nausea. Nausea, Yeah. Who hasn't done much other film work? You know, if you look at his his credits, he's not done this was certainly the biggest he had done I think he did cover what that there was another thing on his list that he'd done that was that was relatively big. But this was certainly the the largest.
00:53:48:13 - 00:53:50:03
Clark
One of the higher profile. Yeah.
00:53:50:11 - 00:54:04:23
Cullen
And but no, I actually really like, you know, it kind of there's only really three kind of pieces of music in this. There's a softer flute that kind of goes on during of course the nicer scenes or in sometimes is played during creepier moments.
00:54:05:13 - 00:54:06:01
Clark
It's kind of the.
00:54:06:01 - 00:54:07:01
Cullen
Juxtaposition kind of.
00:54:07:01 - 00:54:09:16
Clark
Represents a little more of Kerry's vulnerability. Yes.
00:54:09:16 - 00:54:21:12
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah. And then there's the actual hit When Carrie uses her telekinesis, which sounds it's the exact same cortex as psycho hit. Yeah. Which explains, you know, the.
00:54:21:12 - 00:54:22:01
Clark
Strings.
00:54:22:04 - 00:54:52:22
Cullen
Herrmann. And perhaps DePalma would have wanted Herrmann to almost recreate that sound as well. And then there's this. There's this. That score. When. When the mother's dying, which comes up only a few other times in the movie, I think. And it's like this really nice that that sounds really nice, but it's tragic. Like it's it's just brooding with this just tragic sound that I think is I think personally, you know, I'm not somebody who ever thinks that music should tell somebody what to feel or.
00:54:53:17 - 00:54:54:11
Clark
Be on the note.
00:54:54:11 - 00:55:25:08
Cullen
Or front. But I love music and film when it's used really well and and I don't even mind it if it's really loud and big and, you know, forward as long as it's serving great purpose beyond just saying be sad. And I think that scene is actually a really perfect example of it. And I think Mary's into this whole idea of martyrdom from the mother's perspective perfectly, because you feel that as as Carrie like covers her ears, as she's kind of doing her last dying breath, you just there's this it's not like a horror score in that moment.
00:55:25:08 - 00:55:35:03
Cullen
It's like this really tragic. But but almost a grand, almost fulfilling feeling song. And I think it's really, really well done.
00:55:36:10 - 00:55:58:02
Clark
Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. And you definitely do get get that that the homage, if you will or the you know there's a lot of stylistic similarities in this score between what you could imagine that Bernard Herrmann might have done. You could definitely imagine that this would be something, you know, that he would have done kind of along these lines.
00:55:58:02 - 00:56:08:08
Cullen
Yeah, because Simon loves the strings, he loves the flutes, he loves, you know, the definitely I can tell that that DePaulo was really trying to kind of pay homage to him, especially considering he had just passed away.
00:56:08:12 - 00:56:36:23
Clark
Yeah. And knowing that no department had intended to hire. Yes. To, you know, but he was sadly unable to. Wow. Well, I think that about covers it, man. Yeah. Yeah, I, I, you know, it's, it's these films are fun. I, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Sometimes I'm like, even though. Yes, it comes from like, you know, it's like it's De Palma's name on it and it's kind of so it has a bit of a pedigree there.
00:56:36:23 - 00:56:55:01
Clark
But, you know, it's like maybe this is my little attempt to, like, ease into some more genre films. So I'll start with I'll start with something that's more acceptable, you know, like a De Palma flick. And then I could kind of maybe next time I'll pick something even a little more, you know, maybe I'll start getting into, like, something from Carpenter or something, but we'll see.
00:56:55:01 - 00:56:55:14
Clark
Oh, yeah.
00:56:55:15 - 00:56:56:01
Cullen
Awesome.
00:56:56:01 - 00:57:17:06
Clark
Yeah, but but I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed this one. And it's it's really fun to talk about. And hey, who knows, maybe we'll do it another DePalma film down the road because, I mean, I think his work really is worth watching and talking about. Yeah. And if, if I ever have an opportunity to expose some new people to to De Palma, then I'm super excited to do that.
00:57:17:06 - 00:57:33:15
Clark
So. But anyway, well, will be excited for your pick next time. I look forward to that. And everybody out there who is like stayed along and and listen to us discuss. Carrie, we appreciate you doing so. We hope you enjoyed it. Colin, thanks as always. We'll see you next time.
00:57:33:21 - 00:57:41:20
Cullen
Yes. Yeah.