Clark
Hello, everyone. Welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I'm Clark Coffey and with me today is Cullen McFater. What's up, Cullen?
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Cullen
Not much. How are you?
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Clark
I'm doing awesome, man. As usual, I've been well, mostly. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think I'm usually I'm doing pretty awesome. I mean, like, anybody around, It's like anybody else. I got my ups and downs, but, hey, whatever I'm doing this podcast, I'm like, usually in a pretty good mood.
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Cullen
So that's a nice break from the bleak mundane the next day.
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Clark
Are you pull in like a Herzog now?
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Cullen
Yeah, we've got to keep connecting.
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Clark
You've got to we've got to keep to our roots. Yeah, exactly. It's like so we hope then that here in our episode number 37, where we're going to be discussing Bong Joon Ho's 23 film Memories of Murder, which was selected by Cohen. We hope that we can provide for you a little bit of a break from the mundane and the the existentially, you know, just the suffering that we experience in our life.
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Clark
Hopefully this will be a little ray of sunlight. I hope so. Yeah, exactly. Oh, that's our goal. That's our goal. That's our goal. So, dude, let's just jump right in. This is a film that you selected and it's actually a film that I had not seen previously. So it's always fun for me to be exposed to new films.
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Clark
I mean, I had heard of it, of course, you know, especially with Bong's Parasite, which was, you know, huge, huge, huge film. Of course, I was aware.
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Cullen
Of this film.
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Clark
Oscar win. Yeah, absolutely. And this film, of course, was was just one of the biggest films to come out of Korea. It was a huge film in South Korea. Yeah. And of course now it has been accepted the world round. But I hadn't seen it yet. Yes, it's true. There are actually some films that I haven't seen yet.
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Clark
So. So it was.
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Cullen
Even though you're a huge collection even.
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Clark
Yeah, well, hey, I. Yeah, well, it's funny. I do have a pretty large physical collection of massive media, and honestly, I could probably go go in there. I'm going to guess that I probably actually haven't seen maybe a third of my own films.
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Cullen
Right.
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Clark
So one of these days, that's my goal, though. You know, I try to see at least a couple a week, but but then of course, they keep releasing new films. So what am I to do?
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Cullen
Let's put a hold on it all.
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Clark
Just put on hold.
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Cullen
And we get it all figured out. Yeah, Yeah. So this movie is I mean, it's what's funny about this movie is that it's kind of lauded by a lot of Western filmmakers. Like I know. Tarantino says it's one of his favorites. Guillermo del Toro really loves it. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of and Fincher specifically, he, you know, pulled a lot from this movie when he was doing Zodiac.
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Cullen
In fact, this movie was a direct inspiration for the way.
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Clark
That you can see. Jack Yeah.
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Cullen
And I first saw this movie in, I think, 2016.
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Clark
So I saw.
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Cullen
His parasite, you know, stuff I hadn't I knew of him and I knew of the movie, but not really any details, didn't really know what it was about. Had never seen any of his movies before, like The Host or anything like that. I hadn't seen it, and I think this would have been before. One was Snowpiercer. I think Snowpiercer was 2017 to 2013.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
Okay. No, and that's way earlier than I thought.
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Clark
No, you haven't seen. Yeah. Yeah.
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Cullen
So I had not seen Snowpiercer. I have now but I hadn't then. Yeah. And I remember, I mean the reason that I watched it was because again I think a few friends and I had just seen the Zodiac at TIFF, at the not the festival, but the, you know, the Toronto International Film Festival has a building where they show movies year round and usually they're specialty movies.
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Cullen
They're not just like new releases, they're some of them are new releases, but usually if they're new releases, they're indie films or they'll show kind of like old, famous movies on film and stuff like that. So great theater if you're in the Toronto area. But but the they showed Zodiac and we it wasn't the first time I'd seen Zodiac, but we you know, it was a movie that I like.
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Cullen
And so we went to see that. And afterwards I think me and two of my friends just kind of decided to go back to my place. And one of my friends mentioned, like, maybe we should just watch Memories of Murder, because that's the movie that Fincher really pulled from for us as we watched it. And yeah, I loved it.
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Cullen
I was like hooked instantly. I really liked the tone of it and the again, we kind of discussed this in the Butch Cassidy episode, how I really like in Butch Cassidy, how there's this like juxtaposition of comedy with like the more serious subject matter and how, yeah, scenes that are serious are serious and there's, but there's still like moments of lighthearted, you know, kind of comedy.
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Cullen
Yeah, I really like how that movie handles it. And I remember being very reminded of that in this movie that it's, you know, this movie very if you haven't seen it, not what you would expect from like a crime thriller, like it's not like a seven or, you know, even like it's very, very much Zodiac tonally.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
In that there's like a lot of like almost like slapstick humor.
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Clark
Which I was very, very physical comedy.
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Cullen
And even the performances are like these really heightened comedic, sort of almost like, like dopey roles and like the main characters are.
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Clark
Almost a little Three Stooges going on.
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Cullen
Yeah. And so it's really not what you'd expect and not when I first saw it, what I expected at all. And I'm sure you had a similar experience, but I again, I just thought that it was it was really, to me, really refreshing. Like it was a really unique take on this kind of genre that I'd never seen before.
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Cullen
And I really liked it.
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Clark
Yeah, Well, it's so, it's interesting that, you know, you bring that up. It was certainly one of the first things that that I kind of honed in on in my viewing. So, of course, I mean, we open up and you can see right away that this film was painstakingly shot. It is beautiful. You know, it's kind of bookended with these really vibrant, beautiful skies and.
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Cullen
Golden fields.
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Clark
And. Right. And so that jumps out at you right away. So, I mean, immediately it's like, okay, you know, somebody knew what they were doing behind the camera here. So that obviously, you know, hits me immediately. But then but then just minutes later when, you know, we're exposed to the comedy of it and, you know, right off the bat, in the first scene, we've got the little boy who is mocking song Kang Ho's character.
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Cullen
Literally perched atop the dead body, too.
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Clark
Literally, Right. A bunch of dead bodies literally perched above that dead body. And and he's mocking, you know, kind of parodying, doing that. Like, you know, that thing that none of us loved to have done to us. And and so we see right off the bat, okay, here's a hint of the humor that's that's likely to come. And it does.
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Clark
And it was very it's a very physical comedy often. I mean and some of it, I have to say. So I will readily admit my exposure to Korean film is not substantial. And I didn't have a lot of understanding of, you know, the time period that this film takes place in what was happening in Korea politically. Cult film.
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Cullen
Starts in 1980.
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Clark
Six. Starts at night. Yes, it's in 1986. And so this is a really important time for Korea, for its history. And and also, you know, I didn't know anything about the the true life real story, which this is not based on literally, but it kind of has to do with something that actually happened, which was, you know, Korea's first known serial killer and the.
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Cullen
Second embellished version of that.
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Clark
Story. Right. A fictionalized telling of that. But but it's very much a real thing. And if you lived in Korea, if you grew up in Korea, then you would know about this. I'm I would imagine in the same way that if you grew up in the United States, you would know who Ted Bundy was, for example. So I didn't have this cultural background.
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Clark
I didn't have any of this historical background to bring with me into the film. So so unfortunately, I was kind of always a little bit worried that I was missing nuance, that I was missing subtleties in the storytelling. And that's likely just on me. And I should have just let go of that and just gone with it. But one of the things, you know, the tone was an interesting thing to me, not that I don't I absolutely appreciate humor and I appreciate the juxtaposition of humor, even slapstick humor.
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Clark
And matter of fact, I think it often works best when it's kind of packaged in a serious container, if that makes sense. Right? I mean, it's extremely well done. It's extremely well shot. There are definitely serious aspects to the film. There's no question there. There are very serious dramatic things happening here. But I was I was kind of questioning in myself.
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Clark
I was like, okay, am I missing something culturally? Am I you know, am I is this is this what the director wanted me to experience? So and.
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Cullen
It's interesting. It's not necessarily comic relief. Like it's not like, oh, there's like a character that's like it's it's just it's like interwoven through the whole movie. And one of the reasons that I wanted to bring up the idea that it's like right from the get go of this kid again, being perched atop. Yeah, it's from the beginning, you know, above the dead body is that it's, it's it to me.
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Cullen
I mean what it thematically highlights, at least in my interpretation of it, is just the like the fact that none of the police in the movie were taking any of this seriously until and you almost get this exact tonal switch when they start to take it seriously. The comedy is really stripped out of the movie. You know, there's almost like no comedy in, I would say the last third of the movie because at that point, suddenly there's this like realization of how serious what's going on is.
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Cullen
And so that's at least my interpretation of it. And of course, it works for some people it doesn't work in. I can totally understand why, like it wouldn't work for some people at all, because it is very, very different than anything that you would probably see, especially in like an American or even a Western movie. Just the way that there's just comedy infused in these really, really dark, like seemingly dark subject matter.
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Cullen
But it's played almost for laughs, which is a really interesting choice.
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Clark
And it may have more to do with with the directors, you know, kind of with a director's personality, with Joon Ho as a director, as an artist, maybe more than it does culturally. But and again, I think this is just me kind of being the anxious, anxious, neurotic person I am. I'm always kind of like, what am I missing?
00:10:38:23 - 00:10:58:23
Clark
What am I missing? You know? But but it didn't mean that I didn't enjoy the film. Not at all. But it was just kind of one of those things where I, you know, instead of like, fully letting go and going along for the ride, I was kind of questioning a little bit like, for example, one of the things that really jumped out to me were that were the dropkicks.
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Clark
So the joke. Yes. And it's and they're hysterical to my mind, but they're played so straight, you know, it's like, yeah, I think the first kick occurs in the film where we've got the introduction of this, this new officer that's come in from Seoul to help help this local department solve things. And he's following a woman. Now. We don't know who he is yet and the detective that we're familiar with doesn't know.
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Clark
So I think there's like a misunderstanding. The woman thinks that she's about to be victimized when she's not. And and so we've got this other police officer drive by, stop, assess the situation. He thinks that this woman is in peril. So he, like, runs out of the car and just like jumps into this ditch with like this fall on like two leg jump dropkick.
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Cullen
And it's actually like it was a real thing in the movie. There was a set that they did for the movie.
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Clark
And you know, and again, it's like and I'm sitting there, I'm like, okay, well, this is funny to me. Like, this is funny to me, but I don't know that it's supposed to be funny, but, you know, but whatever, I mean, and there is like a but matter of fact, I think if you go on YouTube and you Google like memories of murder drop, there's just Yeah.
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Cullen
Well you know that's what's funny is that it happens then and then it just keeps happening.
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Clark
Just keeps going and it's.
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Cullen
And it's like I remember watching with my friends and we were like, we thought it was hysterical because it was just it's just this is our thing. But it's and it's like this weird, almost like a motif throughout the movie.
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Clark
It is. It totally is. And, you know, again, for me, it's just, you know, I'm like, well, wait a minute. Is this you know, is this kind of a cultural thing? Is this how many films, you know, how action is portrayed in Korean films? You know, because you wouldn't have that. Of course, in a Western film. You imagine a Western, you know, a police procedural or, you know, like serial murderer or detective film.
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Clark
You know, you'd never have a character like just run into a room and dropkicked somebody, you know. And again, to me, it's.
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Cullen
It's really interesting way of like, again, my interpretation of even specifically the jump kicks is because later on in the film, of course, one of the characters is, which is kind of the turn of where it gets less comedic is one.
00:13:07:06 - 00:13:07:15
Clark
Loses.
00:13:07:17 - 00:13:13:09
Cullen
The character who does the most jump kicks, loses his leg to tetanus because he gets out like in a fight.
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Clark
Very similar. Yeah.
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Cullen
And so to me, that's almost just like this. There's this make believe play element with the whole you know again first thirds of the first two thirds of the movie where the cops aren't taking anything really seriously. They're kind of just like.
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Clark
Where the.
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Cullen
Detective and they're just like, hey, you know, we're going to bring in these guys and we know that they're not the the perpetrators of the crimes, but we're going to you know, we're going to book them for it anyway. Well, then so then and they're just really like they're almost like playing pretend to police. And then it's the moment when, of course, our character gets tetanus in his leg and has to get to remove that.
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Cullen
Again, it's this scene probably three scenes in a row where things just get very, very serious. Yeah. And the movie remains thus, you know, henceforth very serious and very a lot more somber in tone when I think.
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Clark
Yeah. And those moments are handled really wonderfully and that's where, you know, to me it's like, okay, so I may be a little confused about some tonal things here and that may be a little unfamiliar to me, but there was no question throughout the entire film that I'm in the hands of a very competent director who's making very specific decisions.
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Cullen
And his second feature to only feature.
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Clark
And so, yeah, I mean, so I want to make it clear it was never that I thought, ah, I'm kind of maybe confused about the style because I think the director was confused about the style and that's a whole different thing. I definitely did not feel that in this film. I think again, for me it was just I was kind of wondering, am I missing some things?
00:14:41:06 - 00:15:00:11
Clark
Yeah, naturally. And is that why? But yeah, no, the moment that you describe, we can kind of get that. To get to that a little later is actually really quite amazing when you know, Kang Ho's character has to actually sign off on the amputation of this leg because this other officer who's, like you said, he got hit in the leg with like a rusty nail on a plank.
00:15:00:11 - 00:15:05:03
Clark
He doesn't even have any family there. So, I mean, it ties in a lot of.
00:15:05:03 - 00:15:12:20
Cullen
Really to his whole at this point, his whole character's thing is just like being very physically violent. And so it's this it's again, it's basically.
00:15:12:20 - 00:15:13:15
Clark
He loses in the.
00:15:13:15 - 00:15:26:04
Cullen
Amputation. You're losing the whole character. And what's funny, too, before we get into like the necessarily the details of the movie, too, I also just want to talk briefly about what's, you know, a little bit more of my connection with this movie is that.
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Clark
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:26:23 - 00:15:44:03
Cullen
The first feature I ever wrote was really heavily inspired by this to the point that I so just a little bit of, I guess, context on that. I, I was always really interested in like I'm a big fan of crime films and stuff like that.
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Clark
I'm a big I was.
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Cullen
Literally the reason the crime.
00:15:46:09 - 00:15:52:06
Clark
Generally. I thought you were going to say I'm a big fan, you know, of crime, Crime. I'm pro crime. I love crime.
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Cullen
But I just you know, one of the reasons I went to school for criminology was because I like crime movies like that was that was basically the, the, uh.
00:16:00:18 - 00:16:02:01
Clark
The impetus for that. Yeah.
00:16:02:16 - 00:16:28:03
Cullen
And there is this American serial killer named Paul John Knowles, and he's a very different type of serial killer in that he wasn't this guy who, like, went out and stalked his victims, kidnaped them, put them in like a hole in his basement or something like that. He killed out of desperation of like escape. He escaped from prison and then was basically on the run for, I think, like a month or so.
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Cullen
I can't remember exactly the details of it, but was on the run and wound up basically becoming a spree killer because he would like, you know, hijack a car and kill the owner of the car. He would break into a house for food and kill the owners of the house.
00:16:40:17 - 00:17:02:05
Clark
So let's give a little bit of just real quick. I mean, not that we want to make this about Paul John novels or serial killers, but just to give a little bit of context, because this is all new to me. So this American, like you said it, he killed between 20 and 35 people. So wow. Yeah. But it looks like he lived from 46 to 74, was killed in a.
00:17:02:05 - 00:17:03:12
Cullen
Shootout, two at the.
00:17:03:17 - 00:17:06:23
Clark
Shoulder to shoot out. Wow. So, okay, so. So this is something.
00:17:07:00 - 00:17:20:11
Cullen
So that was. Yeah. So that story really like, I just thought that was really interesting because it was such a, a different type of like, you know, he's classified as a serial killer, but like, you know, you think of a typical standard serial killer and he doesn't really think like.
00:17:20:11 - 00:17:23:00
Clark
That Ted Bundy or like some kind of. Exactly.
00:17:23:00 - 00:17:41:03
Cullen
You think of someone who's. Yeah, sex crimes or or again, even just like the kidnaping that it takes place over like years and years. And it's it's planned and orchestrated. Whereas his killings often were very much circumstance like they were just like he was again like fleeing from the police. Not that that makes you know, it's not, of course, using it at all.
00:17:41:03 - 00:17:43:01
Cullen
But I just mean that it's it's an interesting.
00:17:43:01 - 00:17:44:08
Clark
It's it's different than your.
00:17:44:11 - 00:18:08:14
Cullen
It's very different. Yeah. So I, I this was before I think I'd ever seen memories of murder that I really liked that story. And so I started like, toying around with this screenplay and trying to get it, like, really authentic. And I did a lot of reading on the accuracy and wanted it to be, you know, I think I had seen Zodiac at that point, so I was kind of looking at Zodiac and being like, How can I, you know, really take that story?
00:18:08:14 - 00:18:19:12
Cullen
And in fact, the movie that I made for the Werner Herzog Masterclass was like a almost like a how would it how can I put it like a proof of concept for that story?
00:18:19:19 - 00:18:21:07
Clark
Yeah, like a teaser, if you will.
00:18:21:07 - 00:18:49:01
Cullen
Yeah. Like it was like very much using the tone and stuff that I wanted to go for with the feature that I had been kind of working on. And then I saw Memories of Murder and it really like opened up all this stuff for me, which was that guys like, I don't have to be accurate at all. So I threw out all the accuracy and just took that the inspiration from this, this story about this thing and just was like, okay, I'm going to make a story about this man who is like a spree killer in this small town and these, like, incompetent police.
00:18:49:17 - 00:19:04:20
Cullen
Not only can they not find him because he's just kind of like random and nuts, but also they can't find him because, you know, they start out just not really taking anything seriously and very much like this movie. And so it was very much to me almost like a Western adaptation of Memories of Murder.
00:19:05:01 - 00:19:05:09
Clark
Yeah.
00:19:05:20 - 00:19:23:08
Cullen
And so that was the first feature I ever wrote Night And again, very, very heavily inspired by memories of Murder, both in tone as well. Like there's a lot of you know, I included a lot of that kind of comedic elements that aren't, again, straight up like jokes being told or, you know, just that like actual comedy, but rather.
00:19:23:08 - 00:19:24:18
Clark
Just kind of a psycho.
00:19:24:18 - 00:19:35:08
Cullen
Comedy. Yeah. Yeah. Satire very much. Yeah. So I just that's kind of another connection that I have with this movie that, that I think is really interesting that, that, that kind of inspired the first feature I wrote.
00:19:35:12 - 00:19:41:18
Clark
Wow. So, yeah, I mean, so this film means a lot to you. I mean, if it's inspired your first feature that's that's been I would call that now.
00:19:41:18 - 00:19:49:18
Cullen
Not the feature that I'm making right now because the feature that I wrote would have, you know, Yeah. Cost it a lot more money. But yeah, well yeah, it was the first one I'd ever written.
00:19:50:00 - 00:20:21:06
Clark
Maybe you'll be able to, maybe you'll be able to produce that one here. Let's hope. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk I mean, let's talk a little bit more about that. Let's talk about some of the themes. Yeah. You know, and kind of the satirical nature of some of the themes that we saw, at least in the film. I mean, one of the things, first and foremost, I mean, it's it's seems so prominent in the film in, ah, the way that the police are are shown here and you've got a combination of total incompetence to the point where, I mean, like you said, it's just, it's like ridiculous.
00:20:21:06 - 00:20:24:14
Clark
I mean it's, it's laughable. These police are so there's no.
00:20:24:14 - 00:20:33:03
Cullen
Like moments of, of like, you know, investigating a crime scene and like finding a clue. It's all just like, oh, they're just like, I know who this is. And they pull them into an interrogation.
00:20:33:03 - 00:20:55:01
Clark
Yeah, just beat them. And they just and it's, and it's so clear. I mean, it's it's almost always very clear to the audience that, you know, the person that they're interrogating and beating. So not only are they incompetent, but they're they're brutal and operating above the law and illegally, I would hope. I think that's part of what this film is kind of trying to speak to and show.
00:20:55:01 - 00:21:12:02
Clark
And I think in the in the eighties, I mean, police brutality is is a problem probably everywhere. There are police to some degree around the world. But I think especially at this time period in Korea, it was especially an issue. So I think that's part of what the film is trying to show. But yeah, and I think.
00:21:12:02 - 00:21:36:15
Cullen
A big reason for that, too, is the the fact that at the time this film's making and actually when I had first seen it pre 2019, the killer had never been caught. Yeah, that, that. And so I think a lot of that was this kind of cultural outrage at the the the again the real incompetence of the police there for not capturing this guy who had killed ten people over the course of you know I think it was like seven years of the murders took place.
00:21:36:15 - 00:21:56:08
Cullen
And so there's this real outrage, I think, with society of just this inability to catch this guy and that I think that a lot of that is fueling a lot of these satirizes Asians of the police in this. And of course, as I said in 2019, they actually the killer actually confessed he was already in prison for murdering his wife and wound up confessing to the rest of these murders.
00:21:56:08 - 00:22:00:23
Cullen
So, yeah, that was what was very interesting again, was that I had first seen it and never.
00:22:01:08 - 00:22:17:15
Clark
Known the ending. That has a big deal, that has, that has. And we can when we get to it, we can kind of talk about it. But yeah, I mean, that has the fact that the killer had not yet been found is is very, very integral to the way this film ends, which which is a pretty, pretty amazing ending, frankly.
00:22:17:15 - 00:22:20:19
Cullen
And again, another very similar thing to Zodiac as well.
00:22:21:00 - 00:22:21:07
Clark
Yeah.
00:22:21:15 - 00:22:27:23
Cullen
In the way that this film ends. And that film ends kind of with like a question rather than but we'll get into Yeah, like kind of the ending.
00:22:28:06 - 00:22:51:10
Clark
So that's so definitely the police incompetence brutality then each, each kind of officer has and I think we talked a little bit about this has, has their own kind of you know it total incompetence when it comes to work or, you know, kind of their one trait. Like we've got one detective who thinks that he can just tell if somebody is a criminal by read their faces.
00:22:51:10 - 00:23:09:17
Clark
Yeah. And of course, the film, I mean, the film shows us instantly how he can't. I mean, it's it's like one of the first things we see in the film. So it's like, okay, this guy is so convinced that he's got these shaman eyes and he can just look at somebody, you know, we've got another detective like we talked about who just uses physical violence.
00:23:09:17 - 00:23:15:00
Clark
He's got this, this like slipcover that he puts over his boots so that he can.
00:23:15:00 - 00:23:15:11
Cullen
Stop.
00:23:15:15 - 00:23:19:12
Clark
So he can stop people, but not but but not show any like, you.
00:23:19:12 - 00:23:21:02
Cullen
Know, out. Yeah. Not leave scratches.
00:23:21:02 - 00:23:41:04
Clark
No, not leave scratches. Right. I mean, your spleen may be squashed, but, you know, you won't have a scratch on you. And then we've got another officer who comes in from the city who's like by the book, you know, And he's just convinced that if you just follow the rules, if you follow the line by line, I've seen, you know, procedure to a tee that that's going to get you where you need to be.
00:23:41:04 - 00:23:55:14
Clark
And of course, the film ends with, you know, this character. You know that that's not the case, that you know, and you talk a little bit about we can talk about about limits of technology in the eighties and how that's a little bit a part of the story, too. Yeah.
00:23:55:14 - 00:24:07:09
Cullen
Yeah. And it's like this kind of almost country versus city life even again, goes back to the we think of like Korea now and it's very much a, you know, industrial sized.
00:24:07:18 - 00:24:09:00
Clark
But it wasn't in on.
00:24:09:02 - 00:24:33:16
Cullen
Par with with any other, you know, industrialized nation whereas but yeah but back then it was very much still kind of coming out of this this, you know, tough economy, you know, really carrying around on the government sides. And again, they had to like there's a whole kind of b-plot in this movie about having to ship evidence to the U.S. to get it basically processed because.
00:24:34:00 - 00:24:35:13
Clark
They can't take DNA. Right.
00:24:35:13 - 00:25:02:07
Cullen
Yeah. So they have to ship it to the FBI. So, yeah, there's a lot of almost like motif of that if like just like the or even just the not only the technological incompetence, but just the incompetence of like how slow it all is, where they'll, you know, there's a, there's another element of the movie where they're trying to get postcards from a radio station and that there's just like it What's really, again interesting about this movie to me is that there's just like every single person in it is incompetent with the exception of like very few characters.
00:25:02:07 - 00:25:27:19
Cullen
And that the those few characters who aren't incompetent, one of them being the police woman who actually has the idea of tracking down this postcard, which leads them to kind of their prime suspect. She's ignored. So it's like the incompetence further takes that person and just puts them in the background, right? So but, you know, you have this idea that, yeah, they'll call up radio station, try to get these postcards because the person who's submitted the postcards will submit a postcard every time there's a murder.
00:25:27:19 - 00:25:30:18
Cullen
And then the but the people at the radio station throughout the postcards and.
00:25:31:00 - 00:25:53:20
Clark
Well, it's interesting to me too, you know, I really like the way this film handles this, that they're you know, we see a lot of the ways that these police officers in the department, general and authority, it's kind of they all represent authority, are ineffectual either because they're lazy or they're or they're just full on incompetent or they're you know, they they're full of ego and think that they are great when they're not.
00:25:53:20 - 00:26:18:14
Clark
But they also do something that's a little more subtle. But but it just permeates the whole film, which is that they completely and totally get causal relationships confused. It's like I mean, it's, you know, they they think just because it rained whenever a couple of the victims were killed. Yeah. Okay. So that must be absolutely vital. And, you know, the killer will only kill when it rains or.
00:26:18:20 - 00:26:25:17
Clark
Okay, you know, the victim was wearing red. Okay, well, we can only worry about a woman who's wearing red or. Yeah, which, of.
00:26:25:17 - 00:26:27:06
Cullen
Course, we find out all these things are.
00:26:27:06 - 00:26:38:19
Clark
False. That right? Okay. A certain song was played on the radio, so whoever called up and requested that song, you know, that's got to be the killer. And it's like, you know, they just these causal relationship errors.
00:26:38:19 - 00:26:39:02
Cullen
Just.
00:26:39:02 - 00:27:01:11
Clark
Over and over and over, I find I found to be actually pretty amusing. You know, it's it's, it's, it's just it's such a highlighted feature of this of the way the story is told in the film. And I'm not quite I don't know if necessary. I think some of these things or maybe all of them I'm not sure you might know a little bit more were actually mistakes that took place by the authorities in real life on this case.
00:27:01:18 - 00:27:10:23
Clark
I'm not sure, but but certainly effective. And something that I really caught my attention and I thought was actually quite, quite keen in the film.
00:27:11:21 - 00:27:31:04
Cullen
Yeah. No. And I think that it's it's again whether or not it's true is, is it's a relevantly a relative. Yeah, it's, it's it's very much a great example of how to tell a true story but well actually, you know to bring it back to Herzog, it's very much an example of truth versus fact.
00:27:31:04 - 00:27:31:17
Clark
Account.
00:27:31:17 - 00:27:50:19
Cullen
Which is that versus Yeah. Which is that if there was, you know, I'm sure that if this movie were like a like, you know, factual retelling of the events, it would be much less interesting and probably much less engaging. And you know, that it would also probably have much less impact in showing what the actual truth is, the emotional truth or the the.
00:27:51:12 - 00:27:52:11
Clark
The esthetic truth.
00:27:52:11 - 00:28:09:08
Cullen
Yeah, the esthetic truth. And so so I think that that's a you know, I think that Bong Joon Ho is really brilliant at bringing what matters forward and it's like, you know, okay, so maybe the police didn't really go to the radio and think that this was the thing. But it is a really, really excellent example of this.
00:28:09:09 - 00:28:30:02
Cullen
This like chasing down a dead end to the point that, you know, you almost wind up killing somebody over it. And I think that that's such a, you know, a really great sign of his direction and, you know, other things about his direction, too, that I think are just kind of remarkable are the way that he will block and set up a scene.
00:28:30:05 - 00:29:00:05
Cullen
Oh, well. And just let a scene play out. And I think the important distinction between Bong Joon Ho and a lot of other directors who kind of do similar things is that Bong Joon Ho is not a director who, like Will, you know, tell his actors to improvise. You know, this isn't a guy that's, again, like fly on the wall where he'll just set up a camera and be like, okay, play out the scene and and do things you know, he is very specific in the way that he says, you know, like if you watch the making of this film, he will literally act out the scene himself with the actors.
00:29:00:05 - 00:29:00:12
Cullen
And so.
00:29:00:15 - 00:29:01:00
Clark
I do.
00:29:01:00 - 00:29:03:01
Cullen
The lines and then sort of say, try it like that.
00:29:03:07 - 00:29:04:02
Clark
Oh, wow. Which is.
00:29:04:02 - 00:29:06:15
Cullen
Really interesting. And then so so it's not. Yeah, it's not.
00:29:06:15 - 00:29:07:21
Clark
I want to pause on that for a second.
00:29:07:21 - 00:29:08:08
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:08:23 - 00:29:32:23
Clark
Not to take us, like, too far down, you know, I'm sure, but okay, so unfortunately so everybody out there, I just realized today, right before we started recording that although I've had the Criterion Collection of this film for a while now, I did not realize that there were two discs. So I had fortunately have not yet seen this making of documentary that Cullen's referring to.
00:29:32:23 - 00:29:46:14
Clark
I'm going to I'll watch it after the podcast here, but I haven't seen it. But this is interesting. So this is news to me. So you're saying that in effect, that Bong will actually give line readings? That's what we.
00:29:46:14 - 00:29:54:18
Cullen
Would, Yeah, and not necessarily in a way of like, like if you've seen Hail Caesar when it's like the would that it were so simple but not like that.
00:29:54:18 - 00:29:56:02
Clark
Like it's not like he's like scene.
00:29:56:06 - 00:30:27:05
Cullen
But rather what he'll do is because he's got such a such a specific and you know, articulate and accurate way that he wants the scene to be played out. He'll just show that to the actor and then sort of say like, okay, now you bring your own thing to it. And so I think that that's a really neat way of directing and, you know, because because again, his so a lot of the scenes again in case you haven't seen this or any of his other work, he very often will to set the camera down have an incredibly well blocked image almost like a tableaux of our characters where it's like they're positioned in a way
00:30:27:05 - 00:30:32:03
Cullen
that wouldn't really necessarily make sense in real life. It makes perfect sense and really great visual sense for the.
00:30:32:03 - 00:30:32:15
Clark
Movie.
00:30:33:02 - 00:30:52:06
Cullen
And just play out the scene in a oner. And what's amazing about it to me is that it's not it's not necessarily a showoff kind of thing. It's more so to let the actors, like so many directors will, you know, they want to have they'll start on a master and they'll cut into a close up of one actor and then it'll be shot over, shot of a conversation, and I'll come back to the master then.
00:30:52:16 - 00:31:09:12
Cullen
But what that does, at least for a lot of both actors and I think for the audience, is that it divides up the scene and makes it seem so orchestrated. Whereas what Bong Joon Ho does, and I think again is like an incredible, you know, show of his talent, is that he'll just let the scene play out in a water.
00:31:09:23 - 00:31:28:00
Cullen
And so, again, it's not about letting the actors improvise and like come up with stuff on the spot and have them jump out of their chair if they want to, but rather it's just about them, almost like like theater and which makes sense because a lot of these actors were theater actors. Yeah, but. But letting them play out the scenes that are just it just sits like that.
00:31:28:00 - 00:31:38:03
Cullen
You just experience the scene as though you're there as a you're with them. Well, I definitely show that explicitly. You know what people need to be looking at or like, yeah, it's.
00:31:38:03 - 00:32:17:13
Clark
Really interesting something. Yeah. So definitely stood out to me as well. I and I really appreciate that. And you're right, they're not, you know, Boogie Nights or Goodfellas oNers they're not you know generally these really flamboyant, I would call them like flamboyant. They're actually, for the most part, fairly seamless. But you do you've got these wonderful scenes, whether it's, you know, the detectives at a table drinking at a hostess bar or or there's there's actually quite a few scenes here where we let he just lets the conversation unfold and the cameras kind of taking it all in some of these shots.
00:32:17:13 - 00:32:38:09
Clark
The camera is quite wide and there's no recomposition kind of necessary. For example, when the the detective from Seoul comes in and they're kind of introducing each other, and it's the first time we see all the detectives in one scene or in one location and kind of the awkwardness and kind of confusion and kind of, you know, they're feeling each other out and don't know who who each other, you know.
00:32:38:14 - 00:32:39:21
Clark
So, you know, they're.
00:32:39:23 - 00:32:49:17
Cullen
In the scene when he gives no Shik Park, who is the kind of like the kid discussion of the facial scarring there's there and yeah, there's in the shoes in the restaurant that his father owns.
00:32:49:17 - 00:32:50:18
Clark
And it.
00:32:50:22 - 00:32:56:13
Cullen
Was just this like it's like a three and a half minute scene, just y sits on a wide lens just with this.
00:32:56:15 - 00:33:06:07
Clark
Theater. It's like you said, just like theater. And, and I. But then you've got also you've also got scenes where he does move the camera, he does recompose, and there's quote, There's this.
00:33:06:07 - 00:33:07:19
Cullen
Amazing close ups in this movie.
00:33:07:19 - 00:33:10:05
Clark
And and it works so well. So and I think.
00:33:10:05 - 00:33:35:00
Cullen
That that's the thing, though, is that that I think it's like sort of like a you know, of course, that's the effect of it's the same thing with sound, which is that like, you know, when you want if you want loud things to sound loud, then you make everything else quiet. And in this movie, I think that that's why closeups in this movie have such intimacy and such intent and that there's so, you know, the close ups have such a punch to them is because so much of the movie is played in these wide, really long.
00:33:35:00 - 00:33:35:13
Clark
Tableaux.
00:33:35:21 - 00:33:48:10
Cullen
Tableaux like kind of theater like settings and scenarios that once you get this punch in on these actors faces, it's like, wow, He's like, you really feel their performance and you really feel the emotion of those moments.
00:33:48:18 - 00:34:01:04
Clark
Yeah. And there's not a lot in just to take. And at least I'm not remembering as such. But you know, not only is he's very sparse, in particular in specific with his usage of closeups, but we also don't have a lot of like inserting stuff in this film.
00:34:01:09 - 00:34:02:06
Cullen
No at all.
00:34:02:07 - 00:34:18:10
Clark
And it basically I mean, an answer is just a close up or extreme close up of something other than a person's face, right? I mean, in in just the most fundamental kind of way. And, you know, a lot of times in a procedural or a supposed police procedural or kind of crime thriller like this, you've always got. Right.
00:34:18:10 - 00:34:35:00
Clark
Because there's always so much detective work going on. And so when there's a lot of detective work going on, you've always got a lot of inserts of, you know, and there's not a whole lot of that here. So when when the camera punches it on something, it really, really, really stand.
00:34:35:00 - 00:34:52:04
Cullen
And there's there's moments like a lot of moments actually, where the actors are looking directly down the barrel where and again, not I wouldn't say a lot as in like it happens frequently, but a lot of the close ups which are few and far between the directors or the directors, those the actors are literally staring right down the barrel.
00:34:52:04 - 00:35:01:00
Cullen
So which just again increases this, which is such a difficult thing to pull off. Well, yeah, because if you just get that wrong performance wise, then it comes off as.
00:35:01:00 - 00:35:03:17
Clark
That person's total focus. Well, breaking it's totally.
00:35:03:17 - 00:35:22:12
Cullen
Exactly. But but when you do it well, like it's done in this movie, I think it it again brings this weight to a shot that is otherwise kind of impossible to reach. And and he does this so brilliantly. And it's only I think there's only like three or four shots in the movie that I can think of where the where they're looking directly down the barrel.
00:35:23:08 - 00:35:26:12
Cullen
Primarily it is Song Kang Ho.
00:35:26:22 - 00:35:27:07
Clark
Yeah.
00:35:27:09 - 00:35:46:02
Cullen
Who who looks who's got such a perfect face for it to like he's got such a, well you know, just a, just a forgiving but also expressive. Expressive. Yeah exactly. But not too over the top. Like it's not like he's like, you know, doing something weird with his face. He just has a really great stare.
00:35:46:10 - 00:35:47:07
Clark
Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:47:07 - 00:35:53:10
Cullen
And so, yeah, I think that again, to come out of this movie, being his second movie, is always kind of remarkable to me that.
00:35:53:10 - 00:35:55:12
Clark
That and he was young didn't use I think yeah.
00:35:55:19 - 00:36:01:04
Cullen
I think his early thirties I think he's he was born in 1969 and this would have been made in like 2023.
00:36:01:04 - 00:36:02:14
Clark
So at.
00:36:02:19 - 00:36:03:09
Cullen
30.
00:36:03:22 - 00:36:21:23
Clark
33 ish, I always feel there's a part of me that, oh, you know, of course I'm impressed. And, and yeah, good for you. And of course know the world is a better place for having wonderful filmmakers in it. So absolutely. I'm full of joy. I wish every film were were, you know, were wonderful and every filmmaker were fantastic.
00:36:21:23 - 00:36:39:12
Clark
But oh, my gosh, there's a little part of me, though, where it's like, wow, to be that good at that young age. I'm jealous. We can dream. We can dream. It's like I can never go back to that age. But, you know, I'm well past that age now. But maybe there's still hope for me. I mean.
00:36:39:12 - 00:36:44:01
Cullen
There are plenty of directors, too, who are quite famous, who didn't start directing till they were like in their late fifties.
00:36:44:01 - 00:36:47:12
Clark
So there. Well, there's that. There you go. There's hope. There's hope for.
00:36:47:16 - 00:36:53:12
Cullen
Every. What's the what's the the little. Yeah. I can't remember what the quote is, but it's something about.
00:36:53:21 - 00:37:01:16
Clark
Like every, every rose has its thorn. And I whenever I make films that have to do with this. I didn't know that you were a Poison fan.
00:37:02:22 - 00:37:28:09
Cullen
Yes, but. But yeah. And the other thing that again, I also really do want to kind of get into yeah, a little bit more detail, which is, you know, I just mentioned kind of briefly earlier is just that that style that he works with the actors. And in terms of showing and I do really for people who like maybe listeners podcast who aren't directors or who haven't worked on films or on actors or something like that, it's usually kind of a taboo to show an actor specifically.
00:37:28:09 - 00:37:29:20
Clark
Well, that's what I was going to say.
00:37:30:01 - 00:37:46:23
Cullen
Is and it's like it's kind of one of those things that like, especially actors don't like it. But I think the way that he approaches it and again, it's it's difficult to describe because he's got such like a subtle way of doing it. But all the actors in this film, when they're when they're interviewed about it, really appreciate it because they're not the kind of put it in this way.
00:37:46:23 - 00:38:03:08
Cullen
That's like, he's not showing us in a way that's like, I want this and don't deviate from it. He's showing it in a way that's like, This is my vision. This is what I thought of when I was writing it. And so, like, that's just what I thought of. And so let's do it and let's see how you do it.
00:38:03:12 - 00:38:22:00
Cullen
And it's like this really interesting style of like remaining open, but also being really, really clear in what you want. Because I think it's really important. Like when I, you know, personally write something I have yeah, I've got my blocking in mind from the moment that I'm writing out a screenplay. I've got my blocking, I've got the focal length of the lens, I've got how I want it lit all in my head.
00:38:22:00 - 00:38:41:00
Cullen
And so I'm very particular like that. But like for me, you know, again, for even the movie that I'm working on right now, the feedback isn't like, you know, if an actor says a line in the way that I'm, you know, that I wasn't thinking it should be said or that I don't think works, I'm not going be like, No, no, hang on, hang on.
00:38:41:00 - 00:39:01:09
Cullen
Say it again like that would that it were too it was too simple or that it were so simple bit from Hail Caesar. Yeah it's more so like an example would be that the lead actor in that one, one of the co-leads in the film that I'm making is they perform this role in our first reading. Very friendly and very like outwardly, almost like warm.
00:39:02:03 - 00:39:20:16
Cullen
And so rather than taking an individual line by line thing and sort of going like, no, no, no, say that more like that, I just kind of said like, pull back that warmth. Like, really like, take that away. Like cut out the warmth and be a lot more direct. Like you're like you're everything is a transaction to you and everything's everything's transactional.
00:39:20:16 - 00:39:24:08
Cullen
And so and that's kind of what I see in Bong Joon Ho's.
00:39:24:15 - 00:39:32:06
Clark
Interests, just efficient direction. I mean, yeah, it doesn't sound like he's giving line read, you know, when you describe it that way, you know, when you when you first brought it up, I thought, wait a minute.
00:39:32:06 - 00:39:39:12
Cullen
Wait a minute. But he does. But I mean, that's what he literally will go through a scene and do read and do the lines like the scene. Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:39:12 - 00:39:59:20
Clark
I mean, you're certainly right. In my experience, as you know, on both sides of the camera, it's it's something that I actually really have worked hard not to do, you know, to not ever I don't ever want to put the words there, you know, the actual words in the script, in the in the mouth of my actor, so to speak.
00:39:59:20 - 00:40:18:00
Clark
You know, I don't want to just hand it to him, so But I don't know. You know, that's interesting. I mean, I'll have to watch that making of and kind of check that out. It's, you know, obviously for every director out there, there's a different way of working. Everybody's got their own kind of certain sting. And certainly different actors respond to different types of direction.
00:40:18:00 - 00:40:19:04
Clark
And I think what's.
00:40:19:06 - 00:40:35:16
Cullen
Really what I think is so unique about it and what I think the reason that I think it works so well is that when I again, when I first saw this movie, I also hadn't really seen a lot of South Korean cinema. And so I was sitting there thinking like, is this just like, is this is this just like this?
00:40:35:16 - 00:41:02:05
Cullen
Like, this tone is this is a really popular tone in South Korean cinema that like the actors kind of play things. And then when I watched this behind the scenes and as I of course have seen more, you know, films from South Korean realize that that wasn't this was the case. What I realized was that it is this like the reason that every performance, every actor is giving this, like, specific type of performance that's not necessarily like what you would naturally read it as if you were to read the screenplay of this film.
00:41:02:11 - 00:41:19:23
Cullen
And the reason that is and why they all like Mende so well together, and they've all got this really direct vision is because of the way that Bong does that. And he he almost treats the actors the same way that he would treat the visuals, which is that he has a very specific artistic vision on the way that he wants these things delivered.
00:41:20:06 - 00:41:38:07
Cullen
And again, not in a restrictive way, but rather just in the way that he's like, I want to take this tone. I want the tone to maintain both through the visuals and through the storytelling and through the performances. And so he he gets every single actor in his film to approach the role in a really similar way in this in this way.
00:41:38:07 - 00:42:02:06
Cullen
That's like heighten it and like add a little bit of comedy in there and really make everything exaggerated and almost, again, slapstick. And there's so many like moments where someone's just like slapped in the back of the head for saying the wrong thing or something. So I think a lot of that, again, which when I first saw this movie, I was like, is this just like really neat way that that, that, that, you know, South Korea has adopted filmmaking or is this but no, it's not.
00:42:02:06 - 00:42:31:17
Cullen
It's it's actually just Bong Joon Ho's style of direction that he you know and it's a lot more if you've only seen parasite and haven't seen memories of murder haven't seen any of his movies, you might, you know, sort of see that in parasite. But it's a lot more subdued in Paris. And I think it's this movie is a lot more exaggerated in the way that like Parasite is, I think played a little bit more straight, played a little more real, whereas this movie is not like the the way that people act in this movie is not grounded.
00:42:31:17 - 00:42:40:09
Cullen
It's not you know, it's not like a you know, I highly doubt that the real detectives in this movie were or in that that the film is based off of.
00:42:40:16 - 00:42:41:14
Clark
Well let's we're not.
00:42:41:21 - 00:42:42:14
Cullen
Yeah yeah.
00:42:42:20 - 00:43:09:00
Clark
She's but I mean yeah it's heightened right and exaggerated a bit and and compressed so maybe maybe over the course of years you know little pieces of this behavior might have actually occurred. But the story is so compressed that you just have, you know, ridiculousness, ridiculousness, ridiculousness kind of just stacked on top right with one right after the other in the same way that the murders are stacked up and compressed in the story.
00:43:09:05 - 00:43:16:23
Clark
Of course, in real life, these things, I think, took place over a much longer period of time. Yes. So so it kind of heightens that. But.
00:43:17:21 - 00:43:23:18
Cullen
Yeah, the film I mean, the film appears to take place over about a year and the real murders took place about six or seven years, I think.
00:43:23:18 - 00:43:24:23
Clark
Yeah. So like 86.
00:43:24:23 - 00:43:40:04
Cullen
To 91 or 92. And the movie doesn't you? There's only two title cards for date in the film, one of which is at the very beginning. And then one of which is the very end. And but the ending is very clearly supposed to be like a decade, if not more after.
00:43:40:11 - 00:43:43:13
Clark
Right. Well, he takes place. We have I mean it.
00:43:43:13 - 00:43:44:02
Cullen
Goes to to that.
00:43:44:03 - 00:43:46:17
Clark
Yes. It is not even close to 2003.
00:43:46:17 - 00:43:47:16
Cullen
Yeah yeah. He's a salesman.
00:43:47:16 - 00:44:05:00
Clark
Selling juicers now. Yeah. Which is interesting. And this is just I want to kind of speak a little bit to this in one of the commentary tracks, this was pointed out to me, and it's an example of how, you know, the subtleties and nuance can be lost if you don't have a deep enough kind of cultural, historic understanding.
00:44:05:00 - 00:44:23:21
Clark
So, you know, in the final scene or near it where we've got the detective his in the in a van and it's filled with boxes of juicers and it's clear that he is, you know, not he's like with his family he's actually now married the woman that I think was a prostitute the she was.
00:44:23:21 - 00:44:27:11
Cullen
Sort of like a or like a nurse that was kind of like.
00:44:27:21 - 00:44:28:09
Clark
Kind of.
00:44:28:09 - 00:44:31:22
Cullen
I guess, slept with her papa. She's like she was like an in-home nurse.
00:44:31:22 - 00:44:50:03
Clark
That would so even that even that's a little bit hard to know, right? Because, I mean, so maybe it'd be very clear, you know, maybe they're just some cultural differences with kind of prostitution and how that might look. But by the it but at the end of the film, it's clear that he's a salesperson and you're like, okay, well, he's just no longer a detective.
00:44:50:03 - 00:45:01:16
Clark
He's a salesman. Okay, great. But but the huge difference here is that in that country, so much had changed economically that there was even a market for juicers, that that was even. Yeah.
00:45:02:10 - 00:45:07:21
Cullen
It's such a, it's such a stark contrast from going from. Yeah, like this, like farming. Everyone sort of looks poor.
00:45:07:21 - 00:45:08:11
Clark
And invested.
00:45:08:11 - 00:45:34:04
Cullen
In a miserable and everything again is desaturated beet bleach bypass too, which we'll get into when we get into cinematography in a moment. But but that then it goes to Yeah, exactly. It's it really does a good job that ending which is only like 10 minutes Yeah. Of showing the change in the country and but at the same time that it's like nothing's really changed because of course which I think I genuinely think the final scene this movie is one of the best endings to a movie ever.
00:45:34:04 - 00:45:36:08
Clark
It's wonderful. It really is. Yeah.
00:45:36:15 - 00:46:00:18
Cullen
You know, for context, again, we of course, aren't really careful with spoilers in this movie because hopefully either people have seen them or don't care about spoilers. But. Right. But just for context. Yeah, the movie ends ten years or more, probably more like 15 years after the events of the film take place in 2003. So set contemporarily when the movie was made and the main detective we've kind of followed for the movie is now.
00:46:00:18 - 00:46:06:15
Cullen
Yeah, he's like a traveling salesman for these juicers. He's talking on his cell phone. He's got kids who like his kid, places.
00:46:06:15 - 00:46:07:06
Clark
In the house.
00:46:07:22 - 00:46:09:02
Cullen
Like a nice house.
00:46:09:02 - 00:46:09:20
Clark
Yeah, nice.
00:46:09:20 - 00:46:11:06
Cullen
It's Son Western.
00:46:11:11 - 00:46:12:13
Clark
It's a movie. Yeah, a lot more.
00:46:12:13 - 00:46:24:00
Cullen
Yes, just definitely. Well, which is a very big thing in South Korea, especially that there's, like, a lot of American influence in South Korea. Yeah. And, you know, so, like, life is like, you know, for lack of a better term, good prosperity.
00:46:24:01 - 00:46:24:07
Clark
Yeah.
00:46:25:17 - 00:46:34:08
Cullen
And then but of course, he comes across as he's driving, comes across. I don't want to go into detail about this because, of course, we're not recounting the film in this podcast.
00:46:34:08 - 00:46:34:23
Clark
But that's okay.
00:46:34:23 - 00:46:56:11
Cullen
I thought that he comes. Yeah, he, he, he, he comes across the first sight of the victim. Yeah. The site where they found the first body in the, in the where the film starts and it's just this like brilliant melon colic, you know, he has this conversation with this little girl who says like, yeah, there was a guy here the other day who was implied to be the killer.
00:46:56:16 - 00:46:56:21
Clark
Yeah.
00:46:57:06 - 00:47:12:12
Cullen
You know, implying that he's still is kind of out there walking around. He was she was like, yeah, he was just here the other day and I talked to him for a bit and he said that he, like, had done something here a long time ago. And then the film ends with, with the, you know, the main detective just looking directly at the camera with this face of like sorrow.
00:47:12:18 - 00:47:30:21
Clark
Well, and with this with his, like, shaman eyes. Right. Yeah. That's also kind of and another part of it too, is that he asks this young girl to it again. Yeah. We don't want to just recount the movie here, but but since we're talking about the ending and we've kind of stated that we think it's really an extraordinary ending, I think it's fair enough.
00:47:30:21 - 00:47:50:04
Clark
We can describe it a bit. But yeah, he kind of, you know, he asks this young girl, you know, can you describe this person? Can you describe this person? And she's just like, he's ordinary. He was just ordinary. Nothing stood out. And so it's so in a way, it's almost kind of also a little bit of the like killer is all of us, especially when you.
00:47:50:05 - 00:48:25:22
Cullen
Well, and that's actually a theme that goes throughout the whole movie too is that this that because there's such a lack of caring not only from the police but seemingly from the public that like like the like I'm disgusted. Again, when you watch something like Zodiac, which is a very accurate retelling of of the you know, the case of Zodiac Killer and Dave Toschi and stuff like that, that you've got this whole like this cultural mayhem of and which is very common in, you know, the U.S. and Canada and even, you know, Britain and stuff like that where when there's a serial killer, like especially a prolific serial killer, it's like big news and people
00:48:25:22 - 00:48:28:07
Cullen
lock their doors and it's like the kids no longer go out.
00:48:28:19 - 00:48:29:09
Clark
But this great.
00:48:29:09 - 00:48:44:15
Cullen
Difference in South Korea, because, of course, not only their first serial killer, but it's like this small town where it's just like, well, I'm not going to stop going to work at my factory because I've got no money. Right? I'm not going to stop sending my kids just like to walk to school because I can't walk them to school because I don't have a car.
00:48:44:15 - 00:49:19:13
Cullen
I've got to go, you know, get to my job. So There's this whole, like indictment of of the like lack of of care from from just the general population of that like, you know, when I gear editorial actually has this short I think it's a six minute little commentary it just about his you know take on the movie and one of things that he says it's really is just yeah this idea that the movie really does point the lens at exactly at the audience and sort of say like, you know, were you and especially I'm sure this would have been especially pertinent in South Korea, which is.
00:49:19:13 - 00:49:20:16
Clark
That the killer was found.
00:49:20:20 - 00:49:21:12
Cullen
Before the killer was.
00:49:21:12 - 00:49:26:06
Clark
Found. I mean, he literally could have literally could have been looking at the killer.
00:49:26:06 - 00:49:29:16
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. From from their point of view. I think he was arrested in 90.
00:49:29:16 - 00:49:31:06
Clark
Two, but I mean, nobody knew it, but.
00:49:31:06 - 00:49:49:16
Cullen
But nobody knew that exactly. And so there's this idea that. Yeah, like, it's like it's I just again, it's such a mesmerizing, mesmerizing ending to end on this shot of and again for that first feature ever wrote ended at the exact same way like I actually it's probably the only scene that I like really pulled.
00:49:49:16 - 00:49:52:15
Clark
Off Hey why reinvent the wheel. Yeah you know it was this.
00:49:52:16 - 00:49:57:23
Cullen
Is like where the main character in that movie I wrote winds up at the first sign of the.
00:49:58:03 - 00:49:59:11
Clark
Good artist then looks.
00:49:59:11 - 00:50:00:12
Cullen
Exactly at the Yeah.
00:50:00:18 - 00:50:01:14
Clark
Yeah it was just you.
00:50:01:14 - 00:50:22:21
Cullen
Know it's all to say it's a homage but um, but no, this, this movie, you know, just ends in such a really kind of a gut punch. And, and the score comes in and it's a really great I love the score for this movie, which is by I hope I don't mispronounce this, but tomorrow you will show you were Hiroo, who was a Japanese grocer.
00:50:23:02 - 00:50:24:02
Clark
Yep.
00:50:24:02 - 00:50:31:03
Cullen
But let's you know I guess we can like almost to sort of as we get into the wrap up, let's just talk about the cinematography.
00:50:31:07 - 00:50:33:10
Clark
Absolutely. I think this movie.
00:50:33:10 - 00:50:37:17
Cullen
Is shot on a lot of wides, which I like this film.
00:50:38:00 - 00:50:42:20
Clark
Yeah. Shot, obviously, 35 millimeter film. You're right. I think shot on a lot of wide and.
00:50:42:20 - 00:50:51:12
Cullen
Yeah it's the bookended scenes that take place in that beautiful rice field are very saturated blue skies, say, and the rest of the color bleach bypass.
00:50:52:04 - 00:50:52:14
Clark
For the.
00:50:52:23 - 00:51:16:12
Cullen
Really low Satch kind of look to it mostly night or cloudy rain. And I also think what's really interesting so I saw the first time I saw this movie, I saw the version of it that had note with the criterion looks very different than other DVD and Blu ray releases and it's been approved and was worked on by Bong Joon Ho himself.
00:51:16:12 - 00:51:20:09
Cullen
So we can we can assure that it was the director's vision that went into the criterion.
00:51:20:16 - 00:51:20:22
Clark
Right.
00:51:21:05 - 00:51:29:05
Cullen
But what I don't actually know is were the film prints more similar to the old, you know, was it just a lack of availability of like good color?
00:51:29:09 - 00:51:47:19
Clark
Well, let's describe the difference a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. The more detail. Yeah. I mean, so the bulk of the film that where we're in the eighties and the investigation's taking place where the all the action takes place is, you know, and this is the only version I've seen, so I'll kind of describe as it exist in the Criterion Collection.
00:51:47:19 - 00:52:03:20
Clark
But yeah, you've got, you know, it's, it's bleach bypass, it's very desaturated, very much muted colors. You've got almost an underexposed feel to everything. It's it's quite dark. A lot of blacks, a lot of blacks.
00:52:03:20 - 00:52:05:18
Cullen
Even the highlights are quite muted.
00:52:05:18 - 00:52:34:12
Clark
Everything and there's even and there's kind of a green ish maybe not as far as matrix, but close ish actually took quite a bit of light green tint over everything and it's very noticeable. It's I mean, it's very much in your face. This is not like what I'm describing and, and what you pointed out is that when you had seen this on whether it was maybe DVD or another Blu ray release, all this is missing.
00:52:34:21 - 00:52:46:11
Clark
It's all of this is missing. And I've seen some examples online now that you shared with me. And it's like shocking how different the other releases. Yeah. I mean, they must have had no input from the director. I don't know what I mean. Again, because.
00:52:46:23 - 00:53:05:05
Cullen
Either that or what's interesting too is that the again, because color grading software and color correction software has come so far and just in the past decade. So there's also the chance that when this film, you know, when it came out would have been finalized on film, it would have been finalized, you know, just with very basic digital color correction.
00:53:05:05 - 00:53:14:21
Cullen
But but primarily it would have been, you know, you you just couldn't push things as far or technology wasn't really capable of of doing these, like really extreme color grades then.
00:53:16:05 - 00:53:16:23
Clark
So what's the film?
00:53:17:07 - 00:53:34:21
Cullen
So curious to know what the theatrical presentation looked like because the version that I watched definitely had the beach blip bleach bypass, but it's just less, you know, less desaturated. It looks a little bit more, I would say like Saving Private Ryan or it's just kind of like still looks pretty natural, but.
00:53:34:21 - 00:53:37:08
Clark
It's still a lot of color and down. Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:38:09 - 00:53:57:04
Cullen
And so I wonder if this was one of those cases where it's like they, you know, released the movie back then and it looked like that. And then when they found it in the availability to do a remaster, it's like a modern color, you know color correction pushed further. Yeah that that he was like this is actually where I wanted it to look.
00:53:57:04 - 00:54:18:23
Cullen
And so I wanted to kind of go or was it that the prints, the actual film prints look like the Criterion version and that those DVD and Blu ray releases just, you know, boosted the saturation for home releases or something? Yeah, hard to know. I mean, I love to see a print of this movie. Yeah. Actually screened. And so hopefully I'll one day have that opportunity.
00:54:18:23 - 00:54:27:12
Cullen
But but no it's it's interesting to me that how stark you know I sent you the pictures of like the directors and you were kind of blown away by how. Yeah.
00:54:27:20 - 00:54:29:20
Clark
It's just Daniels night and day. Yeah.
00:54:31:09 - 00:54:51:13
Cullen
And but you know, just to kind of summarize really briefly without getting too technical about it, the the version that I had seen before this, you know, I've seen this movie a few times, probably five or so times. And, you know, over the course of a few years, they are they again, you've got that bleach bypass, you've got that saturation.
00:54:51:13 - 00:55:09:08
Cullen
But everything is kind of natural. You know, everything looks very much like, you know, the greens are greens, the blues are blue, The skin tones are skin tones, reds are reds. Whereas everything in the criterion, especially, you know, in the moments that are the darker moments that are kind of the middle sections of the film, much more shift towards the greens.
00:55:09:08 - 00:55:32:06
Cullen
Like everything is just kind of hued green. The saturation is brought back even further, like beyond just a simple bleach bypass. So it's it's very and it's interesting. I saw someone almost compare it to the look of the Matrix. What's interesting about that is that the Matrix look that green green look of the Matrix was actually not supervised by the cinematographer or the director.
00:55:32:18 - 00:55:41:06
Cullen
If you saw The Matrix in theaters and then you watched The Matrix on 4K, the HDR 4K, which was actually supervised by the cinematographer.
00:55:42:11 - 00:55:44:07
Clark
It's not supposed to be so not supposed.
00:55:44:07 - 00:55:53:07
Cullen
To be so green. And so I think it's funny that everyone thinks of that as The Matrix. Look, when I wish, you know, the Matrix wasn't supposed to work. So yeah, it's much, much bluer.
00:55:53:11 - 00:56:05:00
Clark
Yeah. So it's interesting. I mean, I don't want to make this about the Matrix. It's, it's all related and kind of interesting. I mean, I did watch The Matrix in the theater. Of course I did this in. I don't. When did this come out? Like 19.
00:56:05:00 - 00:56:05:12
Cullen
99.
00:56:05:16 - 00:56:29:18
Clark
99. So I did see it in the theater. I saw it 22 years ago. I couldn't remember for the life of me, you know, what it looked like in the theater. But but I definitely am mean. I've got these Blu rays and I'm sure I've seen it several times since. And everybody just associates Green and Matrix. I mean, you know, obviously Green does actually play an important role.
00:56:29:18 - 00:56:30:14
Clark
The green is.
00:56:30:15 - 00:56:31:18
Cullen
Shooters and stuff.
00:56:31:18 - 00:56:33:20
Clark
Great. Yeah. And it's the color of the code.
00:56:33:20 - 00:56:40:00
Cullen
I mean if you look up like matrix how to get matrix look on YouTube you'll get a tutorial that just is like ship basically.
00:56:40:00 - 00:56:46:15
Clark
But, but, but a huge part of that it sounds like, was actually not the winckowski is vision.
00:56:46:15 - 00:56:47:20
Cullen
Yeah. Or Bill Pope.
00:56:48:00 - 00:56:52:09
Clark
Or Bill Pope's. Yeah but but it was actually since you know what happened.
00:56:52:13 - 00:57:22:18
Cullen
I think it was likely just to get I don't know if you remember but when they started coming out. Yeah but by were like there was a whole bunch of these they did it to Jurassic Park, they did it to the like the Matrix where they were I think to like make the Blu ray look so much better, they would push the colors in like really weird directions that when you had the side by side, it was like, This is what the movie looks like on Blu ray, and it's all green and cool and like, you know, versus the DVD, which was kind of flatter and of course, way less resolution.
00:57:22:20 - 00:57:46:04
Cullen
Right. And so I think that that was just like a marketing gimmick of early Blu rays. And because, because what you notice is so then you go to the Jurassic Park Blu ray release, I think from like 2012, and it looks like it's graded like in this orange and teal modern look, which is like really ugly. And it wasn't until I think later on that they released the Jurassic Park Blu ray without any of the color grade.
00:57:46:04 - 00:58:01:05
Cullen
So I think it was just kind of a marketing gimmick on Blu rays behalf, or at least on these studios when they were releasing their movies, like kind of rereleasing on Blu ray to be like, look at how different this looks. And I think a lot of that also was because I don't think, you know, Blu rays started coming out around 2005, right?
00:58:01:06 - 00:58:21:12
Cullen
Not a lot of people had HD TVs then, right? So I think that to push it beyond, like even if you put a Blu ray on an HDTV or a non HDTV, it's just going to look the same as a DVD, basically resolution wise. Right. So I think a lot of this was just kind of trying to get people who were, you know, who still had standard def TVs to get them a reason to buy Blu rays.
00:58:21:12 - 00:58:24:00
Cullen
And it was just like, look at know, first the color looks.
00:58:24:00 - 00:58:28:13
Clark
The first discs always stink, right? Yeah. You know, when DVDs first came out.
00:58:28:23 - 00:58:30:18
Cullen
Well, we had that conversation with Butch Cassidy.
00:58:30:18 - 00:58:31:06
Clark
Like they had a.
00:58:31:12 - 00:58:32:11
Cullen
Transfer on that is like.
00:58:32:13 - 00:58:40:17
Clark
Transfer's horrible. And you've got just the technology. I mean, they didn't even have, like, anamorphic widescreen on the first DVDs. Yeah, Got.
00:58:41:02 - 00:58:42:08
Cullen
It all full screen.
00:58:42:11 - 00:59:00:21
Clark
All right. And we've got in the same with with Blu rays. You know, the first six that came out they were overly compressed. They, you know, and as the media kind of grows and finds its legs, you'll get better and better transfers, you get better mastery and you get better data rates, compression rates, etc., etc.. Better color match.
00:59:00:22 - 00:59:01:14
Clark
That's interesting.
00:59:01:14 - 00:59:13:10
Cullen
So so yeah, I just think that, you know, not again, not to go on about the Matrix, but I do think it's interesting that there is kind of a relation here, which is that, you know, the look that everyone kind of talks about as the Matrix, the matrix look that green look wasn't the intended.
00:59:13:10 - 00:59:13:23
Clark
Is not.
00:59:13:23 - 00:59:16:19
Cullen
In, whereas in this case.
00:59:17:06 - 00:59:17:21
Clark
It was.
00:59:17:21 - 00:59:36:05
Cullen
And again it might have been the case where again it was just a technological limitation at the time that they couldn't push it to this degree. And then now that, you know, in the past ten years again, there have been such leaps and bounds made in post-production software that that suddenly Bong was like, okay, this is actually finally we're able to push.
00:59:36:05 - 00:59:37:01
Clark
Pull the loop that.
00:59:37:01 - 00:59:37:17
Cullen
I want to.
00:59:37:17 - 00:59:41:11
Clark
Yeah, well, you know, but then, I mean in the array release they.
00:59:41:11 - 00:59:46:00
Cullen
All, every single color pass on the, Each Lord of the Rings release is completely different from the previous.
00:59:46:00 - 00:59:55:09
Clark
One. Yeah. You know, I could just imagine couple of years the HD and the 4K HD release for this film, we're going to have CGI characters.
00:59:55:14 - 00:59:58:08
Cullen
Either CGI or it's going to go back to the way it used to look.
00:59:59:00 - 01:00:04:07
Clark
We'll have like Jabba the Hutt will be like, It's CGI, Jabba the Hutt will walk through the background in one of the scenes.
01:00:05:06 - 01:00:24:16
Cullen
But, you know, just to wrap up, the film is very grainy. It's very low key lighting, lots of fog, lots of rain. And yeah, I think it's a really beautifully shot film, both in terms of like framing and the movement of the camera, but also just in terms of color and with or without. I mean, I always thought the movie looked amazing.
01:00:24:22 - 01:00:25:06
Clark
Yeah.
01:00:25:17 - 01:00:46:17
Cullen
Even before I'd seen the Criterion version with that new color. Yeah, the movie just looks incredible. And I mean, it does. It's a testament to the power of film, but it's. Yeah, I mean, cinematography aside, even I think that the movie's great. I think a, you know, a pretty decent place to wrap, though. I mean, unless there's something more.
01:00:47:18 - 01:01:10:19
Clark
I'll only just say only to say that I appreciate you bringing it to my attention. I really enjoyed watching it and kind of studying it over the past couple of days in preparation for this podcast, and I've really enjoyed discussing with it with you. Now, here. And so hopefully it's been somewhat entertaining or informative for the audience out there, and I look forward to doing this again with a new film and another week.
01:01:10:19 - 01:01:15:10
Clark
So we'll then everybody have a good one. We'll see you soon.