Cullen
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I am Cullen McFater and with me, as always, is my co-host, Clark Coffey. How's it going?
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Clark
It's going really well. How are you doing, Cohen? I'm great. I know you've been busy. Yeah. Yes.
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Cullen
Yes, I have.
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Clark
And I know you've been busy, and it'll be exciting to talk about that later on. But you've been in pre-production. You're getting ready to. To begin filming, and that's exciting. So we can talk about that later. But thanks for making some space in your schedule.
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Cullen
To do this.
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Clark
To do this episode.
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Cullen
Talking about shallow grave.
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Clark
Shallow grave. I was going to say it, but I was like, No, I want to steal your intro. Don't worry. Your intro is was like, I was like, if I just pause. I know Colin will say.
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Cullen
I got it in there. I got it in there.
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Clark
That's right.
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Cullen
But Shallow Grave Danny Boyle's 1994, um, movie based all in, uh, like the Edinburgh, Glasgow area. Scottish film. That's right. This is a movie you chose to do.
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Clark
I did.
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Cullen
This was your. Your week. And so why don't you kind of describe it, I guess, relationship with this movie the first time you saw it and.
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Clark
Yeah. Yeah, sure. So. So basically. So I did choose the film and I have to say a shout out to my wife, Amber. She was instrumental in the choosing of this film. I, I was kind of just talking out loud to myself and I was thinking, Well, what, what film? What I'd like to do next? What film would I like to do?
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Clark
Text. And it's tough, right? Because, you know, you don't want to pick something that's like super, super obvious that that's kind of been discussed a million times. But of course, at the same time, generally those films are so fantastic that, I mean, you could talk about them forever. So I certainly wouldn't blame anybody forever doing that. And obviously we've discussed films that are, you know, widely known and off discuss, so we've even done that.
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Clark
But I was just trying to think of something like slightly off the beaten path and, you know, one of the like my favorite eras of film, if you want to call it that, is this this time period in the early mid-nineties where independent film, especially American but around the world, I mean, independent film had this huge resurgence. And, you know, this is also a formative period of time in my life.
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Clark
I am in high school. I am, you know, really kind of coming into my own as far as like my awareness of film and my my love of film is like really moving just from kind of like being an audience member to to wanting to do this and really, you know, watching film and analyzing it and thinking about it.
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Clark
So, you know, some of my favorite filmmakers come from this era. And so I thought, okay, well, you know what would be an interesting film, too? So an ember. My wife said Shallow Grave. I thought, that's an excellent, slightly less obvious example and representation of this time period of film as a heavily, heavily inspired by, you know, blood sample, for example, the Coen Brothers first film.
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Clark
And it not only was the cut, the film itself from an artistic perspective inspired by that, but the financing was actually inspired by how the Coens financed Blood Simple, you know, independent financing, you know, going out and finding dentists, you know, for example, to to invest in their film. It was also inspired a lot by sex, Lies and Videotape, Soderbergh's film.
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Clark
So, you know, American independent film really inspired this film. And, you know, at the time in the UK, there wasn't a lot of this type of filmmaking being made. It's also another kind of thing. I think that was really happening in the early nineties, in addition to the independent film was, you know, film that was made for a younger audience but wasn't made by older people.
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Clark
For a younger audience. It's it's a film being made by young people for a young audience, you know, because before that, sure, there's always been, you know, teen movies and things and coming of age films. But usually it's, you know, at least in the U.S., it was stuff like Porky's and Animal House, you know, it was categories. And so it's like people were have always been targeting films toward a younger audience.
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Clark
But I mean, I feel like there's a difference here. There is. And I think right off the bat, we'll get into this in a second. You know, the film kicks it off and it just says out loud that this is a film that's made for a younger audience. So I thought that was unique about it because I think that's another kind of movement, right?
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Clark
There's this hipness to the film. Mm hmm. And, you know, at the time, there was just there wasn't a lot of that being made in the UK. So I think that was important. And I think its influence kind of permeated that, of course. Plus two years later, Trainspotting, I mean, the two of those films together had I think, a huge impact on, you know, stylistically on on film around the world.
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Clark
Yeah, Yeah. So, so that was yeah. So that's kind of why, why I selected the film. Now as far as, you know, my first viewing of it, my goodness. You know, see, this is the thing with all these old films from the nineties and things, it's like, I can't remember. Yeah, I can't remember except to say that it was absolutely I mean I very much remember watching it and I very much, you know, remember that the, the era of this film and its impact to me, you know, with Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction clerks, I mean, I could go on and I could name a million films and and they're all quite different.
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Clark
Blood simple, for example. Also, Sex, Lies and Videotape. So, you know, just there are many dozens and dozens and dozens of these films. But I really remember it being a part of that. And of course, you know, Danny Boyle has gone on to be extremely successful director. And of course, Ewan McGregor has gone on to be, you know, one of the most successful actors around.
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Clark
So, I mean, he's even a Jedi for crying out loud.
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Cullen
He is. He is.
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Clark
That. Yes. Who would have.
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Cullen
Jedi, Obi-Wan?
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Clark
Yeah. Yeah.
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Cullen
I think what's interesting that what you just said to about like independence enema and stuff is we did I think, have a similar conversation in an earlier episode about kind of the like liberalization or liberation or not legalization, liberation of like, of filmmaking in the nineties, because that was kind of when, you know, a lot of formats like 16 millimeter were coming into play.
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Clark
Right?
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Cullen
And then of course in the late nineties you had really early digital like video.
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Clark
Sex, lies and videotape.
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Cullen
Exactly. So so I think it's this movie. I don't think it's a coincidence that something like this kind of exists within that that era. However, what I will say is that it's super different than like the American independent movie. Like stylistically, you know, a lot of films, of course, were kind of inspired even at the time by like Tarantino and Robert Rodriguez and stuff like that.
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Cullen
And Kevin Smith. Whereas this film really, definitely and perhaps being an ocean away is the reason, but also perhaps because Boyle had a very, you know, unique vision for the way that he wanted to make this movie, that it's very much stylistically its own thing. Yeah. That that there are there are similar DNA. But yeah, it's really interesting to see how unique this is and how unlike a lot of other not only American but also other British independent film.
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Cullen
And another important thing to kind of discuss contextually about this movie as well is that it's it kind of came in an era where there wasn't really a lot of influential British film being made that like if you think of the late eighties or early nineties in British film, it's like, okay, what is there?
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
There is like the James Bond movies, which of course the two main producers on those are Americans, Right?
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Clark
Right.
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Cullen
And it's like MGM and while those are very much, you know, I think I.
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Clark
Mean I feel like by the standards I just consider them American films. Exactly. Exactly.
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Cullen
And there was like Dalton in Pierce Brosnan in your head. But other than that, like, you can't of course, I'm not saying that I can't think of any British films from, you know, late eighties, early nineties. But can you really think of like a British film from that era that was like really influential or kind of like a showstopper in terms of.
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Clark
Like defined.
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Cullen
Itself? And I think that this movie in particular is super influential because of the fact that even you look at and I'm not sure how much British film that you've watched. Clarke, but we of course, get a lot of it here in Canada.
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Clark
Right? Right.
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Cullen
British film and British television. Yeah.
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Clark
And that's an interesting distinction because of course we do a little bit more now, but I think especially then, we weren't exposed to a lot. Of course, you know, if you were to try to watch the BBC, for example, here in the United States in the nineties, good luck. I don't know. I was away too. Now, of course, now.
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Cullen
You can get the cable packages, you get.
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Clark
The cable package, or you could just stream it or whatever. And yeah, there's certainly a greater exposure. But that's a good point.
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Cullen
But yeah, I think I mean, I think that the, the, the really ultimate kind of idea behind that as well is that, you know, you watch British television, especially from the late nineties, early 2000s and you can see how much this movie and I think Trainspotting as well would have influenced that style like the style is like down to the quick, like the opening scene of this movie is so pulled from for like a thousand.
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Clark
Pilots of British.
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Cullen
Television, from comedy to drama. You know, Peep Show is one of my favorite TV shows of all time. It was David Mitchell and Robert Webb and that was kind of early 2000. And they I think they stopped it in like 2012. But but the primary influence, I would say, was like that really early 2000, even that film, there's like a lot of like stylistic stuff that kind of is I don't know if it's intentionally taken or perhaps it was just the cultural zeitgeist that kind of yeah, was made up from this and Trainspotting.
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Cullen
But I do think it's really interesting to see those, those stylistic choices that like really, really, you know, British techno music that is used in the opening and right. It's just this, you know, if you want to understand what British life was like in the mid-nineties, you can really watch this movie and see that like the clothes that they wear, the music that they listen to.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
The quick editing, you know, it's all is so, uh, just super, super, you know, influential I think over kind of.
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Clark
You think of the British film dialog.
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Cullen
Yes, exactly. And like Select Shaun of the Dead that came out, I think just five. So, you know, a decade after this, I would even say that, you know, I do write likely very inspired by a movie like this is Shaun of the Dead, although it's completely different movie and much more of a comedy than this. This is a, you know, very black comedy.
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Cullen
But Shaun of the Dead, much more an overt comedy. I think Edgar Wright's editing style and stuff like that really likely was inspired by a movie like this. So. So yeah, I do think it's interesting that for a movie that, you know, I don't think a lot of people really talk about far more people talk about Trainspotting than this.
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Clark
Yeah, of course it was.
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Cullen
A larger movie, right? But you can really see those seeds kind of start to be planted in this. That would then, I think, morph into what Trainspotting became. And it's the same director, same writer, same cinematographer. So certainly, yeah, Ewan McGregor So not surprised that the movies are similar and that their their impact was kind of, you know, still, I think to, to me, everlasting.
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Clark
How delightful is that, by the way, just to kind of point out, I mean, how lucky. I don't know. It's not like, of course, they worked hard and I'm sure there was like a long and kind of thorough kind of organic kind of coming together of these people. But how wonderful that you've got so many people who wanted to work on this, you know, further films together.
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Clark
I mean, I think the chunk of this team also worked on a life less ordinary. And I mean, they so really obviously, like they enjoyed working with each other. They clicked. They're making great films. I personally think a life Less Ordinary 1997 is a much underrated film. I actually think it's it's quite fun, but it's it's kind of fallen through the cracks and is kind of lost nowadays.
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Clark
But regardless, I mean, gosh, that's like I feel like that's what I would love to be able to find. I mean, I a little bit jealous. I'm like, it's such a joy to find. You know, when you find a core group of people, you work well together. You make good films together, that's hard to find. Yeah. So anyway, that always kind of stands out to me when I see that you've got a core group of of people who continue to work together over and over and over.
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Clark
And I do feel like just to kind of digress for a second, I think that you and in them I am I'm making something up that Jung Jung un and Danny kind of have a bit of a falling out at some point. I'm not quite sure.
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Cullen
I'm not sure. I don't think they return to each other for T2.
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Clark
They could return for T2, but I feel like there might have been just a hair of some kind of a little bit of falling out there. But regardless, anyway. So that always stands out perhaps. Yeah, that always stands out to me because I'm looking for that myself. But it come back to it. But yeah.
00:13:01:08 - 00:13:21:14
Cullen
I mean, and so I think to me also I'm, you know, to get perhaps more into like my reaction of the film and yeah, yeah what I thought about it so I'm somebody just a preface I don't really think especially when it comes to art that there's any such thing as like objectivity. So yeah, I always watch movies with that lens and that's kind of how I'm watching them.
00:13:21:14 - 00:13:27:23
Cullen
So even if I don't necessarily gel with a film or I don't necessarily like agree with choices, if that makes any sense. Sure.
00:13:28:15 - 00:13:29:20
Clark
And we've talked about that in the past.
00:13:29:20 - 00:13:58:03
Cullen
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I still always, you know, appreciate and or try to appreciate and try to get in the headspace of like the choices that are being made and the intentions that are being made. And so, yeah, I definitely found myself enjoying the movie. There were certain things that that I think were definitely interesting and, and, you know, I think that could have been or had they been maybe fleshed out a little bit more, I think I personally would have likely enjoyed it more.
00:13:58:03 - 00:14:20:23
Cullen
And one of those aspects is definitely the the kind of I guess the way that the plot is structured, it seems to focus very heavily on certain things and then almost skip over other things that I think and perhaps, you know, again, I haven't read the screenplay for this movie. I'm not sure how similar it was or how much had to change because they shot it in 30 days and, you know, right.
00:14:21:10 - 00:14:38:18
Cullen
So I'm not sure if there was like changes. But, you know, one of the things that really jumped out at me watching this is, of course, the character David, who is played by Christopher Eccleston. Yeah, He goes kind of he's kind of starts out as like the main character, Not the main character sort of, but the character who is like, put together.
00:14:38:18 - 00:14:39:19
Clark
He seems the most.
00:14:40:11 - 00:14:53:23
Cullen
He's like kind of like, I don't think we should do this. And then as they start, like, you know, spoiler, as they discover the dead body and decide to bury the dead body and steal the money, he's kind of the one that's really hesitant. And then but he has to cut up the body.
00:14:53:23 - 00:14:54:04
Clark
And so.
00:14:54:12 - 00:14:54:19
Cullen
That.
00:14:54:19 - 00:15:13:22
Clark
Drives later. They draw straws and yeah, yes. And they kind of build that. And I guess the short straw, he's the one that's like, I'm not going to be able to do this. I won't be able to do this. I can't do this. And then, of course, of course, he's the one. He has to do short straw. So he's got to just to be clear, he's dismember, bring the body of a flatmate, a brand new flatmate.
00:15:14:06 - 00:15:15:10
Cullen
Who they hardly even know.
00:15:15:10 - 00:15:49:11
Clark
They don't. Right. They hardly even know they were interviewing flatmates, which I think is a really fun it just to just 2 seconds just to interject this. Yeah. Yeah, totally a super, super fun way and a very effective way to introduce the characters and for us to kind of develop an understanding. They've got these flatmates who are interviewing a potential fourth additional new flatmate, and it's just so fun to see these characters interacting and how they're kind of, you know, just I mean, really terrorizing, quite frankly, just being like horrifically rude and mean to these potential new flatmates.
00:15:49:11 - 00:15:57:10
Clark
And this is the guy that they set a on and he moves in like his first night and he ODS and dies on the bed.
00:15:57:12 - 00:16:04:10
Cullen
Well, also, I mean I think just to again to point out some things about that opening scene, it really does a really wonderful job, I think, of establishing tone.
00:16:04:16 - 00:16:05:01
Clark
Yes.
00:16:05:01 - 00:16:24:13
Cullen
And that you kind of realize that this movie's not neces like it's not really going for like realism. It's definitely a heightened theatrical. It's very definitely very theater. And it sort of feels so much like theater. And because the set is huge, it almost feels like a theater set, I think. But like, even just like the the, like the what's her name, what's the character Fox here.
00:16:24:21 - 00:16:35:06
Cullen
So she she like, just comes out topless in front of like they've got this like, weirdly casual like, almost like, almost like they're a throuple like an alien up like that. They've got this like.
00:16:35:09 - 00:16:52:05
Clark
And that's part of it. Yeah. You definitely get there's certain moments where you do have this kind of sexual tension that that kind of exists between the three of them. It's, it's, it's not even remotely something that is I don't think they don't go there. It's not like one of those films about like a love triangle at all.
00:16:52:05 - 00:17:03:00
Clark
But it certainly does play into, you know, it's almost kind of a mexican standoff ish kind of thing at the end as far as who's taking the money in this kind of thing. But but yeah, I mean, and I think it works.
00:17:04:06 - 00:17:05:06
Cullen
But just to get back.
00:17:05:06 - 00:17:05:18
Clark
To go back.
00:17:05:18 - 00:17:16:21
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. Just so essentially, yeah, they've got this, this dead body they've got to dispose of and the one who was the most hesitant about doing it, the most sure that he won't be able to do it is of course you know the one that has to do it.
00:17:16:21 - 00:17:18:01
Clark
He has to do it of course. Right.
00:17:18:18 - 00:17:25:18
Cullen
And so then that kind of, you know, drives him insane. He starts living in the attic with the money and is going a lot like drilling holes in the ceiling so he can.
00:17:25:18 - 00:17:26:06
Clark
Look down.
00:17:26:06 - 00:17:50:06
Cullen
See these things. And so what I realized or what I noticed or what kind of really stood out to me when I was watching it was just that I felt it was a little bit unearned. I felt then he just kind of went from being this timid, kind of like nervous guy to suddenly like there wasn't really, you know, I and I sort of mentioned this in our pre conversation, Clark, but where I find that a lot of times the things that kind of like it's kind of like if it if it ain't broke don't fix it.
00:17:50:16 - 00:18:12:22
Cullen
And I think that in these types of situations where you have a character going insane, you can kind of do and this isn't at all to say that there are only two options to do these things. Of course, other people have done very wonderful ways of going outside the box with this. But the two most common are either that you have a character go slowly insane and you keep kind of, you know, bringing in the subtleties and have these like moments where they're just sort of like, oh, they start to go insane.
00:18:12:22 - 00:18:25:01
Cullen
And will they, won't they, and whatnot that or you can have a moments where like it's like a snap, like they've just suddenly been like, okay, I'm insane now and I'm crazy. And again, not to say that those are the only two options.
00:18:25:05 - 00:18:25:14
Clark
I'm in.
00:18:26:00 - 00:18:26:15
Cullen
Plenty of other.
00:18:26:15 - 00:18:27:09
Clark
Things, right?
00:18:27:21 - 00:18:42:23
Cullen
I found that this movie almost did neither and didn't really go even a third way, that it just kind of felt like I could. I think it was the one point to this movie where I almost felt the screenplay was on the wall where I was like, okay, he's going crazy now because he has to, and that's because the screenplay is calling for it.
00:18:42:23 - 00:18:51:17
Cullen
And so he's got to go off and live in the attic because that's that's what's written. And I didn't really feel like I never really felt like every time you went up to the attic, I was just kind of like, is he like.
00:18:52:06 - 00:18:53:00
Clark
Yeah, what's going on?
00:18:53:00 - 00:19:11:18
Cullen
Is the actually insane now or what? And so I just thought that, like, I almost feel like it needed more directional clarity that it needed to really like. And again, it wasn't that it was hard to understand. I'm not saying that it like needed to be spelled out, but rather I think that like a moment like that is really ripe for tension and it's really ripe for storytelling.
00:19:12:00 - 00:19:24:19
Cullen
Yeah, I almost felt I almost felt like it was sort of like a missed opportunity like that. They could have played with that a lot more and made it kind of like a lot of fun to have this character going insane, but rather he just kind of does it and and goes off and lives in the attic.
00:19:24:19 - 00:19:43:04
Clark
It's like, I think that's yeah, that's a fair point. I think it's a completely fair point. And I and I in hindsight now, I have to say it didn't it didn't jump out to me in the same way that it stood out to you. I think I did kind of notice something. But, you know, my interpretation of it was a little bit different.
00:19:43:04 - 00:20:13:01
Clark
I think, you know, most films that are that have this kind of plot structure and are kind of in this thematic space, they they tend to often focus on that. That's that's kind of a focal point for the story is that you're going to have a character going through this and now we're going to kind of make this about their their grip on reality or grip on sanity slip or it's going to be about how guilt or their conscience eats them from the inside.
00:20:13:01 - 00:20:28:08
Clark
And, you know, I think that's a very common theme. And so I think we're often expecting that to be something that a film will focus on. And, you know, I just don't think this film wanted to be that. I just don't think that they wanted to go down that route.
00:20:29:11 - 00:20:36:12
Cullen
Oh, I totally agree. Yeah, I think that it was it was not the intention or that rather it was the intention. Totally. Yeah. To not go down that route.
00:20:36:12 - 00:20:59:13
Clark
Yes. So in other words, I don't think it was like, you know, oh we meant to do this but we failed to communicate it in our, in our, in our script or the execution of the script rather. I just think it was a choice that, you know, this film is about something else. And, you know, maybe it's about, you know, the indifference of our current culture or it's about materialism or it's about, you know, any number of other things potentially.
00:20:59:13 - 00:21:27:13
Clark
But and maybe that's the maybe that's even part of the point was that, you know, it's they don't go into great detail about this person kind of losing their sanity because maybe there's not much sanity to have been lost in the first place, even though, you know, I think, you know, these characters, I mean, when we first see them, I mean, they have what by any appearances would be a very expensive apartment in a in a city, any city.
00:21:27:13 - 00:21:37:05
Clark
I mean, it's huge, especially today. And and it looks quite nice. And I never lived in an apartment that nice in the city ever in my life. And their.
00:21:37:05 - 00:21:38:12
Cullen
Kitchen is like the size of most.
00:21:38:12 - 00:21:49:17
Clark
Regular apartments and yeah, seriously, they've got like, you know, an 800 square foot kitchen for crying out loud. And, you know, one of them is a doctor, the other works at an accountant, an accounting firm, or was a law firm. He's a.
00:21:49:17 - 00:21:50:14
Cullen
Chartered accountant. Yeah.
00:21:50:15 - 00:22:11:21
Clark
Okay. Yep. That's what I thought. So he's an accountant. And then you have our third character, Ewen is a journalist, and at that time newspapers still existed and you might even have made a decent salary if you were a journalist for a newspaper. So unlike when I was at work for a newspaper in 2000. But. But back then, you actually probably could have made a decent living.
00:22:11:21 - 00:22:18:07
Clark
So anyway, and they're well put together. They're well-dressed, they're hip, they're, you know, they're sharp and they're making fun of everybody.
00:22:18:07 - 00:22:19:07
Cullen
They seem to get along.
00:22:19:10 - 00:22:42:18
Clark
They're kind of in their little bubble of coolness. Right. And so, you know, maybe that's the point, is that with all these things, at the end of the day, there's maybe not a whole lot there in sight. And, you know, the set kind of alludes to this, right? You could make an argument that this huge wide open space that is, on its surface quite bright and cheery is actually quite empty inside.
00:22:43:01 - 00:22:58:17
Clark
And of course, we're introduced to these characters. They're ridiculing people they don't even know. I mean, you know, they're inviting people over to the house to look at the flat and they're, you know, they're like grilling them in this like grueling and embarrassing, you know, series of questions in which.
00:22:59:05 - 00:23:07:15
Cullen
Just as an aside, too, it's actually interesting that that one of the characters that they interview comes back later on in the movie when they're out like that little like almost dinner.
00:23:07:15 - 00:23:08:09
Clark
Thing. Right.
00:23:08:09 - 00:23:15:16
Cullen
And I thought I honestly because he came back, I thought I expected him to come back a third time and like, have a, you know, something to do with the end of the movie.
00:23:15:16 - 00:23:17:16
Clark
But it's something. Yeah, just a little aside.
00:23:17:17 - 00:23:21:10
Cullen
But yeah, because there's just that one character that he really does seem to torment.
00:23:21:15 - 00:23:41:15
Clark
Yeah. Where they're doing that is it Boy I'm going to message it's the dinner for these two lovely dancing. Is that how you pronounce it? It's the Scottish Steely dancing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're at that. That formal kind of black tie and kilt party. Right, Right. So yeah, but, but, but regardless, not trying to talk you out of your, your, your opinion on that.
00:23:42:02 - 00:23:47:12
Clark
But this is the great thing about this stuff. You can see it, you know several different ways. Sure. And and I.
00:23:47:12 - 00:24:13:12
Cullen
Totally and that's one of those things that, again, when I say like, you know, I think that everything is ultimately, you know, subjective. Yeah, I don't see that as Danny Boyle just failing to represent insanity. I think that it was very much the intention of the film, like you said, to to not focus on that. I just to me think that I felt like it would have perhaps added to the movie had it been included.
00:24:14:08 - 00:24:21:02
Cullen
Maybe not, though, you know, we don't know because it's just not in the movie. So there's nothing we can do to, you know, imagine all we could do, even if it was.
00:24:21:02 - 00:24:23:09
Clark
I have to hop over to a parallel universe and see.
00:24:23:10 - 00:24:24:14
Cullen
Yeah. Where that was. Yeah.
00:24:25:12 - 00:24:35:16
Clark
Maybe. Maybe you and I in a parallel universe are doing this podcast right now, and we're actually talking about a different movie that Danny Boyle made called Brave, where they focused on that.
00:24:35:17 - 00:24:39:18
Cullen
Word work, like, I don't like that at all. You know, I do think that to go.
00:24:39:18 - 00:24:42:06
Clark
On, you're complaining about that direction. Yeah, exactly.
00:24:42:20 - 00:24:46:21
Cullen
No matter what. That's a lesson for any filmmaker out there. No matter what, I will complain about your movie.
00:24:47:03 - 00:25:10:12
Clark
You know, one of the other things I really I kind of quit were, you know, touching on a lot of different things here. Yeah, I briefly kind of mentioned the set, but I want to talk you know, another thing that when you asked me what my mindset was when I picked the film, you know, the other thing that I think is, is really important and maybe for for listeners specifically to our podcast, and I think certainly for you and I is that this film was made for such little money.
00:25:10:12 - 00:25:33:11
Clark
And I think it's a really good example of a film that is made on purpose with a budget in mind. We've got almost no money, what can we do? And so, you know, I think this is a good example of minimal vacation and, you know, simple story. And so that was the other kind of that was the other reason and, you.
00:25:33:11 - 00:25:34:11
Cullen
Know, very low budget.
00:25:34:11 - 00:25:45:20
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting how some of the, you know, choices that you kind of are forced to make can actually end up being, you know, being great decisions. You know, it's like, like this is the constraint.
00:25:45:20 - 00:25:47:08
Cullen
It's that Yeah, bring your face right.
00:25:47:08 - 00:26:05:03
Clark
Like the set I was talking about, I mean it's this huge set and there actually it is a set. It wasn't a real flat, but it was actually a set. And Danny had wanted the set to be built quite large. And I, I'm only kind of guessing. I, you know, that maybe he wanted it large because he wanted to have space for the crew.
00:26:05:04 - 00:26:25:07
Clark
He wanted to be able to put the camera in as many places as possible. Yeah. And without I guess they didn't want to make fly away walls or something and, and he probably didn't want it to feel, you know, insanely claustrophobic if you ever try to shoot something interior in like an actual house, unless you've got just a giant, mammoth house, it looks tiny, you know?
00:26:25:07 - 00:26:43:23
Clark
I mean, it's it really makes a film feel claustrophobic. And and so I think, you know, we're shooting in one location, so we wanted to have at least some kind of scope. But but they didn't have any money to actually fill it with much. So, yeah, it's a pretty empty apartment. And so you can think, well, wow, you know, crap.
00:26:43:23 - 00:26:55:23
Clark
What a you know, we've got this like nice big space and we don't have any furniture. We don't have anything in it, you know? Oh, my gosh. But I feel like it works so well as a symbolic representation of the state of these characters.
00:26:56:14 - 00:26:58:23
Cullen
They've got fulfilling lives, quote unquote.
00:26:58:23 - 00:26:59:06
Clark
But they're.
00:26:59:06 - 00:27:18:08
Cullen
Empty. But it's just they're empty. Yeah. And I think that that, to me, is kind of the ultimate, you know, at least the thing that I took away from it is, yeah, that's like this day to day monotony, this emptiness of like your life, even if you have a good paying job and a nice apartment and good friends, that there's like this, this emptiness to just like living life in that way.
00:27:18:08 - 00:27:28:17
Cullen
That and that's kind of again, you know this my interpretation why you MacGregor's character jumps on the chance to like do something exciting, do something different, do something, you know, kind of insane the thrill.
00:27:28:17 - 00:27:59:08
Clark
And yeah, for a thrill and look where it gets them. So yeah, And that leads us to something that I want to you know, we can use this film as kind of an example of that that I think might be interesting to explore with you is, you know, in, in watching the film again and, and I always liked to read a few of the at that time contemporary reviews and kind of see you know how what were critics thinking about a film when it was actually released so that it's in the context of the world in which it was released?
00:27:59:16 - 00:28:24:09
Clark
I always like doing that. And one of the things that I one of the critiques that I came across by by a handful of critics actually, was that they felt like, you know, so, yes, this is a film of style. And it especially, you know, for its budget very competently made. And many people even said and I thought it was interesting and I enjoyed watching it, but but there were a lot of people who said, but what the hell is the film saying?
00:28:24:09 - 00:28:50:02
Clark
Like what? Mm hmm. Yeah. What like, what is the film for? What? We've got all of this. All of this story. But what is it leading up to? We've got these, these, these young people dismembering bodies and, and, you know, for for stolen drug money and what like what you know, they were I guess they were, you know, it felt to me like they were expecting that that Danny Boyle have some kind of, you know, make some kind of moral statement or have some.
00:28:50:06 - 00:28:52:04
Cullen
Yeah. Or some big lesson or theme.
00:28:52:04 - 00:29:12:11
Clark
Or lesson or theme. And that and that really stood out to me because I have often, you know, kind of thought about this idea that, you know, film has to have some kind of didactic stance. Yeah. Or sometimes even frankly, kind of, you know, propaganda ish stance versus just like.
00:29:12:11 - 00:29:14:03
Cullen
It has to be telling you something.
00:29:14:10 - 00:29:27:20
Clark
Is right versus just being there for its own esthetic, like just to exist esthetically and Yeah, and I felt like this is a good example of a film that that kind of brings up that question. And so I'd be interested to discuss that with, you know, it.
00:29:28:04 - 00:29:43:03
Cullen
Yeah, I mean, I think that people often have these like checkboxes in their mind when they watch a movie that goes like they don't really think about why they have them. So it's like, okay, it's got a clear theme, it's got a clear message, it's got, you know, a three act structure. It's got, you know, blah, blah, blah.
00:29:43:03 - 00:30:06:18
Cullen
There's, you know, I really long ago is like I remember when the eighth Star Wars movie, I think it was The Last Jedi came out and there was a whole bunch of, you know, there's a totally, you know, a different context and a different movie. But I remember when that came out, there were a bunch of people that were like, Well, you know, I didn't like it because there was no lightsaber fight and I didn't like it because there was no like, they didn't use the one line that's in every other Star Wars movie.
00:30:06:18 - 00:30:22:16
Cullen
And I was like, Yeah, but was the movie good right? It's like, like, who cares if it doesn't check off the boxes that are unrelated? And so to me, that's one of those things that and I've had this experience plenty and I'm sure you have as well in writing movies, especially group writing, or if you're writing and getting feedback from other people.
00:30:22:16 - 00:30:45:20
Cullen
And one of my least favorite questions is like, well, like, what's the theme? You know, like, what is it? What is it about? What is it saying? And it's like, you know, even if I were to answer that question, even if I were to say and there of course, are times when you do have subtext in mind, and I'm sure that Danny Boyle, in making this movie and John Hodge's writing this movie, had had these things perhaps in mind, perhaps they did.
00:30:45:20 - 00:30:47:20
Cullen
But, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
00:30:47:20 - 00:31:01:05
Clark
I think it's inevitable. There's a deep subconscious and conscious. There's a difference. Yes. I mean, I think that there's no way that you can't tell a story without some kind of theme. And but I think that themes because I don't know, you know, they.
00:31:01:05 - 00:31:02:05
Cullen
Try to yeah, people try to.
00:31:02:05 - 00:31:09:07
Clark
Force it, right. But yeah, but themes exist in everything because we are interpretive beings. We are well and.
00:31:09:07 - 00:31:29:13
Cullen
That's what I mean ultimately, right, is that, that no matter what your theme is that you decide on in production or even writing, I guarantee that 99% of the audience will come away with a different, different message or a different interpretation. And so, like even my my interpretation about like the, like again, the this, this just monotony of life and stuff, like perhaps that wasn't what they were going for at all.
00:31:29:13 - 00:31:50:00
Cullen
But that's what I came out of it with. And that doesn't make me wrong. It doesn't make me any less like, you know, bring any less enjoyment to the movie. So I do think it's interesting, though, that, yeah, people really and especially I think people who who either want to be screenwriters and oftentimes screenwriters themselves, that they they they put these like checklists of of, you know, what's good.
00:31:50:00 - 00:32:10:06
Cullen
Whereas I think what's important is, is what you feel while you're watching a movie is, you know, a good movie to me is something that you go away from talking about because of the feelings that you had, not necessarily because of like subtext and things like that. And there always is going to be that implied subtext. But, um.
00:32:10:14 - 00:32:24:15
Clark
But I think yeah. And just, you know, the kind of, you know, I want to clarify to for people listening, you know what, I absolutely think that a filmmaker should have an opinion, have a perspective.
00:32:24:15 - 00:32:25:11
Cullen
And a point of view.
00:32:25:14 - 00:32:54:10
Clark
They have a point of view. And that those that a writer should that a director should. I mean, ideally, every single person involved in the project has a perspective and a point of view. So that's not at all what I'm talking about. I'm talking about rather that, you know, I think there's you know, that it's okay for a film to exist without having to, you know, kind of without it being intended to teach.
00:32:54:10 - 00:33:02:22
Clark
Right. Having some kind of moral instruction or ulterior motive behind this story, you know, or that's kind of the thing that I'm talking.
00:33:02:23 - 00:33:18:15
Cullen
Well, I think that the classic example is like I've met a lot of people who see Jaws as like an allegory for Brody's drinking problem, for his because he's always drinking in the movie and that it's like this. And so that's what I mean. It's it's like if you go if you want.
00:33:18:15 - 00:33:22:05
Clark
A drinking hallucination. Yes. Not even really the shark is the bottle.
00:33:23:06 - 00:33:35:13
Cullen
But but if you know, if you take that away from the movie, totally fine. That's cool. But I don't think that Jaws is any less. Yeah. Without that interpretation. Right. Like, I don't think that Spielberg, when making it was like making active choices.
00:33:35:13 - 00:34:06:06
Clark
To I mean think of just Spielberg didn't and that's okay. Like, that's great, right? Because Jaws can represent any kind of like, unknown threat, right? And anything that's a threat to humanity. But but the point is, though, is that Spielberg I don't think if my recollection of the film made a bunch of like overt, explicit commentaries on how a person should handle that threat or, you know, he he wasn't making moral valuations left and right where a lot of films do.
00:34:06:06 - 00:34:21:00
Clark
Now, again, like and I'm not saying that that people should make those films if they want to make all kinds of film. That's just specifically kind of saying addressing the issue that some people think that art has to exist beyond just the esthetic.
00:34:21:07 - 00:34:22:14
Cullen
That it's required. Yeah.
00:34:22:14 - 00:34:46:22
Clark
Or even or even like, I mean, you know, one of the things that I think is so interesting to me is that, I mean, obviously we are storytelling machines. Human beings are storytelling machines. And every single person on the face of this planet, if they are conscious, can tell a story and understand story. It story is just another word for how people process the world that they live in.
00:34:47:06 - 00:35:09:05
Clark
We create narratives because that's how our brain works for understand in our lives. And that's just that's. That's it, right? Yeah. We think about our past, we experience our future, and we worry about our emissary, experience our present, and we worry about our future. We have a first, second, third act. It's like, you know, things have a beginning, middle end.
00:35:09:05 - 00:35:32:05
Clark
We we're always putting our life experiences and our memories in narratives so that we can try to understand causal relationships. If I do this, what will happen if this happens? What will I do? It's we're constantly doing that. And so there's no there's no way, no, none of us can tell a story that doesn't contain important themes about what it means to be human.
00:35:32:05 - 00:35:46:14
Clark
And I guess the point is to let those happen kind of organically as you are telling a story for the sake of telling the story as opposed to being overly explicitly, conscientiously trying to.
00:35:46:14 - 00:35:47:10
Cullen
Force.
00:35:50:06 - 00:35:51:06
Clark
Ideology.
00:35:51:06 - 00:35:51:15
Cullen
Or.
00:35:51:20 - 00:35:53:15
Clark
Moral themes. And it's okay.
00:35:53:15 - 00:35:59:09
Cullen
And again, especially thinking that that's like feeling bad on yourself or feeling that's what I'm for, not having those things.
00:35:59:09 - 00:36:00:23
Clark
And so you know that. But again.
00:36:00:23 - 00:36:33:00
Cullen
Another way to put it too, is just that like people always, they always start with this idea that it's like, oh, oh, you know, the critique of a movie is like, Oh, it was all style and no substance, right? To me, they're the same thing. Style is substance. There can be a film that is usually beautiful, you know, that I think that filmmaking not even going beyond the idea that film is a visual medium, going beyond that, that it's that every every single shot in a movie period is infused with a director's point of view, is infused with the cinematographer point of view and the actors performance.
00:36:33:00 - 00:36:53:02
Cullen
And yeah, you could be you could be watching the most simple story be told in 5 minutes on on, on film. And there would still be such, you know, such a point of view infused with those things just by and by the nature of how movies are made. And so I think that that is a really important way to watch movies.
00:36:53:02 - 00:37:09:05
Cullen
And that I think that, again, very much something that's related to this movie because as you mentioned, a lot of people were sort of saying like, what is that about? What is what is this movie trying to say? And it's it's sometimes that's not necessarily important or the point that's not necessarily something that has to be talked about.
00:37:09:20 - 00:37:31:14
Clark
Exactly. And I think there's an interesting irony here, frankly, And like especially as it relates to like what we're trying to do right now, I think there's an interesting irony in that, you know, like what we're doing on this podcast, right? We are we are trying our best sometimes with great success, sometimes maybe with less success, but we're trying our best to articulate our experience of films, right?
00:37:32:04 - 00:37:57:12
Clark
That's what we're here doing. And we're you know, we're doing this by talking about how it looks and how it sounds and how the actors performed and, you know, the context of the film and all of these other different ways that we can kind of experience it. But we're trying to take our experience, our feelings of it, and put it into words for people to share with them and hopefully improve upon their experience of the film or talk them into seeing the film or, you know, who knows?
00:37:57:12 - 00:38:36:12
Clark
But but I think it's interesting. I feel almost like this just me kind of riffing here that, you know, the more a film is, is kind of approaches this this, you know, unapproachable, perfect cinema, which is like this, you know, completely visual experi. It's this kind of, you know, totally enveloping, esthetic experience. The more a film approach is kind of a purer art, it's it becomes harder and harder to articulate because because it's more and more subconsciously affecting, because it's I feel like that's the point of art to a great extent.
00:38:36:12 - 00:39:01:04
Clark
And it's that's what esthetic are is when you see something that's so beautiful that it just goes right past your conscious brain and it's something you feel, you feel it, you feel it in your body. It's a it's a physical, experiential thing. And then if you're asked to dissect that, it's challenging. And the more piece of art is it inspires an esthetic, the harder it is to kind of talk about.
00:39:01:04 - 00:39:02:08
Clark
So I think it's.
00:39:02:08 - 00:39:11:05
Cullen
Also one of the reasons that one of the more interesting things to do is to go back and rewatch a movie that you disliked, that you saw a long time ago and find that you love it now.
00:39:11:17 - 00:39:12:06
Clark
Oh, that's where a.
00:39:12:06 - 00:39:14:19
Cullen
Lot of movies like that. Yeah, the works. Like, you know.
00:39:14:19 - 00:39:30:02
Clark
Blade Runner was a movie like that. The first time I watched Blade Runner, I thought it was trash. Now, admittedly, I saw it with the Harrison Ford voiceover, but first time I saw Blade Runner, I thought it was trash. I thought, This is such a cold piece of art called Piece of film. Sorry, I didn't even think it wasn't.
00:39:30:02 - 00:39:44:21
Clark
I was like, This is such a cold piece of film. It's so emotionless. It looks pretty sure. But. But I've nothing from this. I'm getting nothing from this. And then I've seen it. I don't even know how many times since. And it's one of my favorite films of all time.
00:39:44:21 - 00:40:01:23
Cullen
I it's like me and we all know how you know, if you've been listening to this podcast, how I feel about Malick, I'm a big Malick fan, but when I first saw Malick, when I was like much younger, I was probably like late middle school when I kind of first I think I remember which one I saw of his first, but I just remember being like, Oh, it's so pretentious.
00:40:01:23 - 00:40:29:11
Cullen
It's just like, you know, you might as well just film like an apple falling from a tree and like, that's the whole movie and you're just you're not saying anything. You're just trying to be weird and out there and flowery. And then I, you know, as I got older, I sort of rewatching all these movies of Malick's and I was like, Geez, like, I like it really penetrated me in a way that I was like, yeah, this, that the, the underlying, you know, even not again, not even to go with underlying message, but rather the underlying tone, Oh, you open.
00:40:29:11 - 00:40:41:12
Clark
Yourself up to it. And that just illustrates to how, you know, art is, is not just about the creator. It is at least equally as much about the person who's observing or experiencing that art.
00:40:41:12 - 00:40:50:11
Cullen
And so perhaps in, you know, in ten years I'll rewatch this movie and I will. And this isn't a movie that I disliked by any means, but perhaps I will get way more out of this film.
00:40:50:11 - 00:40:51:03
Clark
It'll be a different the.
00:40:51:03 - 00:40:53:02
Cullen
Next time I watch than. Yeah, right. So it'll.
00:40:53:02 - 00:40:53:15
Clark
Be interesting to.
00:40:53:15 - 00:40:53:23
Cullen
Kind of see.
00:40:53:23 - 00:41:21:01
Clark
Yeah Yeah. And that's, that's what's always so intriguing to me. So yeah, so you know, point just being and we can kind of wrap up here pretty soon but yeah, a point just being that I think this was an interesting example, I think a piece of a film can exist to tell a story that doesn't have to have this really kind of conjugate, loosely planned, you know, value statement, this master play that, Yeah, yeah, you know, and I'm okay with that.
00:41:21:01 - 00:41:51:11
Clark
And I'm curious too. I do want to ask one last question here, because this in talking about all of this, is kind of I'm curious to compare notes on this on your viewing experience in general, not just this film, but in any you know, what are the things that I find happening to me is that I get I focus quite a bit more on the visual storytelling and, you know, the visual aspect of the storytelling in the film than I do sometimes dialog, but especially plot.
00:41:51:18 - 00:42:10:16
Clark
And it's so funny that I will be so focused on watching a film and I kind of sometimes can get lost as to what's going on in the plot in a literal sense, because I'm like so focused on on kind of trying to absorb all of these visual aspects of the film. I'm curious what like, what do you find you tend to kind of focus on?
00:42:10:17 - 00:42:28:01
Cullen
No, I'm totally the same. Are you? Yeah. Plot is the last. Even if I even if it's even if it's a matter of like, I fully understand it, I usually you will be the last thing I even comment on in terms of I already rather the least important thing of whether I liked it or not. And so you can have a plot that I don't care about at all.
00:42:28:08 - 00:42:47:12
Cullen
And so that's why I think it's important to it. Like when we discussed at close range, which is a movie that again, I was sort of talking about in when we were talking about how I was like, well, this thing kind of fell a little bit flat for me plot wise. But the reason that I still enjoyed that movie so much was because the movie had a really rich, rich visual language, right?
00:42:47:15 - 00:43:02:18
Cullen
And so even though there were things that I could critique or the plot or critique about the way that the story was told, to me, that's that's, you know, second to, well, what did I feel? How did the visual me feel about it? And it's not to say that it's purely visual as and just like always the framing good.
00:43:02:18 - 00:43:03:23
Cullen
I think, you know.
00:43:03:23 - 00:43:04:18
Clark
It's now much.
00:43:04:18 - 00:43:14:12
Cullen
More it's rich. It's about film being a visual story. You know, do the visuals ooze with what? What is what the director is trying to say in the point of view of the choices being made?
00:43:14:15 - 00:43:25:19
Clark
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's interesting. And it's funny, of course. And this bears out this plays out in our podcast because it's almost never that we discuss any plot based aspect now.
00:43:25:19 - 00:43:26:17
Cullen
Yeah, we don't just go.
00:43:26:17 - 00:43:39:10
Clark
Through I mean, I feel like, hey, if you want to know the plot, see it, but, but, but and I think a lot of people who are really focused on plot and you talked about people who have like you know, kind of a check list of, you know, things that they have to kind of see in a film.
00:43:39:15 - 00:43:57:07
Clark
I mean, yeah, plot is clearly very important to people. And I think, again, not to digress too much, but, you know, plot, it's the importance of plot seems to be ever increasing as television and going to call streaming Now television, we watch it on their television and it's really no different materially than what television wasn't.
00:43:57:15 - 00:43:59:03
Cullen
In the way it's made initials.
00:43:59:03 - 00:44:14:16
Clark
But but, you know, television is very much about plot. It's it's a writer's medium. It's dialog driven. But, you know, plot is important because when people want to make nine seasons of a TV show, you've got to have a lot of stuff going on for a long period.
00:44:15:00 - 00:44:15:23
Cullen
You've got to know where to go.
00:44:15:23 - 00:44:40:09
Clark
So often you'll have, I mean, just plot after, you know, you've got an ABC story, you've got just plot out the yin yang, you know, and this is kind of why I much prefer film is that generally speaking it's yes, there are things actually literally happening, but it's much less about plot. And often my favorite films have very little plot period and it's not about what's happening.
00:44:40:09 - 00:44:56:00
Clark
So sometimes I think the same people who get hung up on what's the theme and what is the director trying to say morally about something or often Also, plot is very important to them. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And to each their own too. By the way, I want to say.
00:44:56:00 - 00:44:58:08
Cullen
Yeah, I don't think either of us are saying that that watched.
00:44:58:09 - 00:44:58:20
Clark
Those films in.
00:44:58:20 - 00:44:59:06
Cullen
That way is.
00:44:59:06 - 00:45:00:13
Clark
Wrong. I do.
00:45:00:14 - 00:45:12:09
Cullen
Or that like there's a wrong way to interpret things or wrong thing to get out of movies, but rather that I think both of you agree on that when it comes to us. Yeah. And perhaps, you know, that's been made very clear through the way that we've discussed.
00:45:12:09 - 00:45:13:15
Clark
These movies like we already know.
00:45:14:08 - 00:45:33:04
Cullen
Yeah. It's just that we yeah, we just tend to, I, I for sure tend to gravitate more towards, you know, the till to use a very contemporary term, the vibes, the, you know, what was I, what was I feeling and what was I experiencing while I was watching as opposed to going like well what was that exactly about.
00:45:33:12 - 00:45:56:18
Clark
Yeah, absolutely. Well yeah, Yeah. Well excellent. Well I will wrap it up here now. Thanks for being willing to watch Shallow Grave. I enjoyed our conversation about it. And it's interesting how some of these films can kind of bring up, you know, larger kind of more broad questions about art and film, which is always enjoyable. And I and I could discuss these kind of things forever.
00:45:56:18 - 00:46:16:12
Clark
But yes, we won't take forever here. But all right. Well, I hate to break a leg on your shooting. We thank you. We're going to we're going to definitely delve into some of that in a in another episode, I think, or even maybe several episodes. So look forward to that, everybody. But break a leg shooting and everybody out there listening.
00:46:16:17 - 00:46:19:04
Clark
We will catch you in the next episode.
00:46:19:04 - 00:46:28:01
Cullen
So you.