Clark
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast with me, as always Today, Mr. Cullen McFater.
00:00:17:09 - 00:00:18:04
Cullen
Hello. Hello.
00:00:18:07 - 00:00:40:19
Clark
And I myself, Mr. Clerk, Coffey are here today for episode 29 and, you know, I'm a little I'm a little scared, but mostly I'm really excited about this episode. COHEN And and you know why? Because this episode, I feel like, is a big pivot point. And I hope that we don't upset people out there. I hope people will continue to take this journey with us.
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Clark
But with this episode, we're going to kind of open up the scope of what this podcast covers. Mm hmm. You know, in the past episodes, the previous 28, we have, you know, for the most part, we stuck, like stuck to script. It was like, This is a Soldier's a cinema podcast. Of course, we got that title from Werner Herzog and an inspiration to both of us.
00:01:06:01 - 00:01:32:04
Clark
And we went through all of his masterclass lessons and then we started going through his filmography. And so it's been really narrowly focused to Herzog. But, you know, you and I, we've kind of talked about it. We're we're almost 30 episodes in, and we thought, you know, it would really be interesting if we could, you know, open up, expand our horizons and and take in some other cinema subjects.
00:01:32:16 - 00:01:39:12
Clark
And so that's exactly what we're going to do here. So with this episode, we're going to pivot to, of all people.
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Cullen
Spielberg Yeah, which is arguably, you know, the it's such a funny comparison to go from Herzog to Spielberg because they're so such different filmmakers, both content wise and right. I would say they're, you know, their personas, their public personas are so.
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Clark
So different.
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Cullen
Almost the polar opposites when it comes to, I guess, popular filmmakers, for sure.
00:02:02:02 - 00:02:25:08
Clark
So, you know, it seems like a stretch. But I you know, I think that, you know, we're still who we are. Herzog is still so much a part of what informs our philosophies on film. And so, you know, I think the lens through which we approach all of this is is going to be really similar, though I think we'll be surprised at the similarities.
00:02:25:08 - 00:02:44:11
Clark
But yeah, I mean, we thought it would be a good idea to explore being able to stretch out just past that, that limit to that kind of narrow range of content. And that's and that's not to say also, by the way, that we're not ever going to go back and revisit any more of Herzog's filmography. I totally that's to be the case at all.
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Clark
And as a matter of fact, I mean, this may even actually open up, you know, give us the flexibility to examine his work in other more interesting ways where we can actually compare him to other directors. We can contrast and compare more from a wider range of films and filmmakers. So yeah, I'm excited, like I said, a tad scared.
00:03:05:02 - 00:03:12:02
Clark
I hope. I hope people will continue to take this journey with us in spite of this change, but I think it's going to be a good one. And yeah, I.
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Cullen
Mean, I think at the end of the day the Soldiers of Cinema podcast is we are the soldiers here. We were driving the ship. There you go. So now what? I think it'll be interesting. I think again, it, it doesn't to me it doesn't strip away the idea. I am a captain, but.
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Clark
Right. But wait. But does that is it cod driving a ship or.
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Cullen
Zero steering or steering helm happening? I don't.
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Clark
Know. I don't know.
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Cullen
Anyway, but. But I think that the the what's important is that it's still because of how influenced we both are about of Herzog. Yeah we you know the analysis that we're going to do is the same it's the same type of analysis. It's the same conversations that we would have about the Herzog movie. But you know why? To me, why limit ourselves?
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Clark
There you go. Absolutely.
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Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
So, yeah. So without further ado, then. So we are going to be discussing Steven Spielberg, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't need any introduction for any of you out there.
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Cullen
A little known filmmaker.
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Clark
A little known filmmaker. I mean, I think, you know, it's as Colin and I discussed, you know, in our last episode, you know, he was the first person that I ever even knew who was a director as a young child. I didn't even I think before I even knew he knew what the position was or what they did.
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Clark
It was like Spielberg was the embodiment of this is a person who makes a film. When I was a kid.
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Cullen
And I've had to, I've had many influences, like I still do. But I would say if there was one person throughout my entire life, especially in my youth, who was like the total influence of why I wanted to make movies, it would very easily go to Spielberg. Yeah, I remember just a quick aside, I remember being like, probably four years old and my mom asked me what I wanted to do because it was like this kindergarten assignment where we had to write down what our dream jobs were.
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Cullen
And I said, Steven Spielberg. And she said, okay, so you want to direct movies? And I said, No, no, no, I want to be Steven Spielberg. I don't want to be a director. I want to be him.
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Clark
So well. And I'm pretty sure that I had some similar type moments. You know, I was a kid. So. So definitely a big inspiration. Yes. For both of us.
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Cullen
And I think for like for so many filmmakers.
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Clark
So many people, it. Right. Even even if you've never had a desire or an interest in making film, I mean, I think his films have had such an impact on such a wide audience. I mean, you know, Herzog clearly is a you know, is a is a landmark filmmaker. But let's be honest here. You know, his work is is somewhat niche for, you know, when you compare that to Steven Spielberg's work and the audience that Spielberg has found, I mean, Herzog just it doesn't even come close.
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Clark
Yeah. You know, Spielberg basically. And we're going to talk about this. I mean, he with Lucas, ushered in the era of blockbusters. And for better or worse, you know, the the extrapolation of that is kind of what we have here to some degree with Marvel movies and.
00:06:11:04 - 00:06:11:23
Cullen
Cinema today.
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Clark
And cinema today.
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Cullen
So and I, you know, as we.
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Clark
Get into that today, if you're Scorsese Z but.
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Cullen
Yeah, yes, yeah. But, but as we get into it too, I think it's really important to note as well that that we're trying not to, you know, repeat any steps like we don't want to just to make the analysis of Spielberg something that everyone's heard before, you know. And so with the two movies that we've chosen to watch, which is Duel and E.T., we're trying to take a look at those from a lens of, you know, how did Hollywood change?
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Cullen
What was the, you know, the context of the landscape? And, you know, even just going in the analysis of those movies on their own, like we want to look at things like like what are the themes that a lot of people you know, duel isn't just a car chase movie. How do we examine these movies much in the way that we would have examined?
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Cullen
Herzog's So trying not to tread over you know already had conversations.
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Clark
Let's not make promises that let's not make promises that we can't keep killing. I don't know. It's only 12 notes somebody a man can play. But yeah, let's hope so. So you're right. So so let's talk about the two films, though, that we're going to use for the focus of this discussion. We've got Duel, which was released in 1971 and I guess released it was aired in 1971, actually, because it was it was a made for TV movie.
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Clark
And I you're the resident Spielberg scholar. So you say you can come in whenever we need all the trivia and kind of facts but. Right. I mean, Spielberg was 25 when he made this film so quite young. He had done quite a bit of television. And this is still for television, but this was the first feature length project he'd ever shot.
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Clark
Is that.
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Cullen
Right? Yeah. He directed some shorter like TV shows. He shows episodes or just came in for for like certain pickups and things like that. But this was the first time he ever got to kind of helm a movie himself, right? Shot in 12 days, which I think is amazing of amazing.
00:08:06:09 - 00:08:06:19
Clark
All on.
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Cullen
Location and not, you know, not for Spielberg's speedy schedule, but rather because the movie had pretty much no money behind it. It was quite literally supposed to just be an ABC movie of the week.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
And so I think it's kind of remarkable that it blew up to anything more than that and really is kind of a testament to the skill and the craft of of of Spielberg himself. Yeah, But I also think that it was one thing that always interested me a lot too, and that you were just talking about this before we were recording.
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Cullen
Was that the idea that the studio was really kind of gunning down on him to make this probably something that wouldn't have been nearly as special as it would have been had the decision Spielberg wanted to make not did not come to fruition. And one of those being that they wanted the entire movie to be pretty much shot live on a soundstage with just a projection.
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Cullen
And yeah, very much a more formal look kind of style of directing a movie like this. Very much more level, a lot.
00:09:03:12 - 00:09:08:09
Clark
More what you see for Yeah, a lot more what you'd find in older films or.
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Cullen
TV.
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Clark
TV Yeah, absolutely. Because they were, they were terrified frankly, that, you know, with this budget and this this few days that, you know, how could how how could he possibly get all this?
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Cullen
He had this 25 year old kid.
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Clark
Yeah, it's just tough, you know, it's because everything takes place. We're inside cars. We've got, you know, mounts on cars were in the stunts. There's all this kind of stuff. And yeah, with with 12 days, that's just extremely difficult to do that. But but yeah there's an interesting story there, you know so Spielberg tells the story and it and this always kind of blows me away.
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Clark
I mean, the confidence that some people have at such a young age, I'm like, God, I wish I had that. But you know, Spielberg, you know, when the studio said, Hey, you're going to have to shoot all the inside car stuff process so that we can get this done in time. He said, You know, that's going to ruin the film.
00:09:59:01 - 00:10:18:00
Clark
It's going to completely take people out of the out of the reality here. So he said, you know, let me do it. I know I can get it done in a studio. I said, okay, well, look, here's what we'll do is spend the first half day out there shooting plates. So that so that you've got them and then we'll give you like three days.
00:10:18:05 - 00:10:34:06
Clark
And if you're on track, if it looks like you're going to make it, then we'll let you keep shooting on location. But if it's not, we're going to pull you back in and we've got those plates and we're going to use them for this for these process shots. But obviously he was able to pull it off. But amazing.
00:10:34:06 - 00:10:58:16
Clark
Yeah, amazing. And it's you know, it's interesting to you know, you and I were talking about this and it's something that we really want to make a big part of this discussion. The landscape. Yeah. Yeah. When this film was released because these two films were released 11 years Apart, Duel and E.T., but boy, they couldn't have been released in a more radically different film environment.
00:10:58:22 - 00:11:04:18
Clark
And, you know, a lot of this change was actually brought about by Spielberg himself, especially you.
00:11:04:18 - 00:11:05:06
Cullen
Very much.
00:11:05:10 - 00:11:28:08
Clark
Take Spielberg and Lucas as a team. You know, Spielberg actually changed, you know, the industry and that Segal had to play, of course, but he was a big part of that. And so when Duel was released in 1971, we have what I think is one of the greatest eras of cinema, which is, you know, some people call it New Hollywood or American New Wave or Hollywood Renaissance.
00:11:28:08 - 00:11:40:00
Clark
But but this is, you know, my favorite era of film. All told. But, you know, Duel comes out just a few years into this. I think, you know, you can kind of use like Bonnie and Clyde or.
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Cullen
You know, 60.
00:11:41:10 - 00:12:05:21
Clark
Seven, 68 as kind of the the beginning of this era. But we have a major departure here for the types of films that are getting theatrical release and are finding an audience. And I think it's interesting to note that, you know, Duel seems to share quite a few, you know, quite a few thematic and technical aspects with a lot of these films.
00:12:05:21 - 00:12:07:12
Clark
So is there something that you you agree?
00:12:07:13 - 00:12:16:20
Cullen
Well, yeah. I mean if we think about the, the like so I've actually spent the last few weeks for some reason just watching a lot of like large studio pictures from like the early sixties.
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Clark
Okay early.
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Cullen
Funny girl and West Side Story and like all these like, you know, major.
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Clark
Big.
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Cullen
Musicals. Yeah. And I think it's so interesting to think that, you know, especially watching something like Funny Girl, which was 1968, which is the Barbra Streisand, you know, Don't Rain on my Parade movie and watching that and how formal it is, how huge, massive lights on, big studio sets, huge ensemble casts. Now, these these massive, massive budgets to think about the fact that that came out within a few years or sometimes in the same year, like Bonnie and Clyde, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Easy Rider and, you know, Duel being, of course, a TV movie, but having a theatrical release after its success in Europe that you you look at what I thought was
00:13:10:17 - 00:13:44:03
Cullen
so interesting is like I can totally see why these movies took off and why this style of of this like new wave, new wave. Hollywood kind of blew up. And it's because it's so refreshing, it's so visceral, it's so real. It's, you know, and very much in line with what a lot of Spielberg, you know, it's kind of famous, I guess touches on movies is the kinetic ism of these movies, too, that you can feel this like constantly forward momentum of of energy and of a just this this incredible technical immersion and skill immersion.
00:13:44:12 - 00:14:04:21
Clark
And it's interesting, too, I just want to point out a couple like because there's some technical changes that happened that I think had a major impact on this change of look and feel. I mean, you mentioned Funny Girl and that's an interesting it's interesting that you did because, you know, Funny girl was she was a I'm pretty sure was that shot 70 millimeter I know it was 65.
00:14:04:21 - 00:14:32:23
Clark
Yeah 65 and it was Technicolor. And so, you know, Technicolor was the premier color process. This is actually even kind of late that a lot of films had even switched from this to some of that Eastman Kodak film that was kind of I don't want to speak out of turn, so I won't say the exact year. But, you know, Eastman Kodak produced a much cheaper color process that didn't require, you know, Technicolor is just an extremely expensive process.
00:14:32:23 - 00:14:45:16
Clark
And and so you've got Funny girl, which is, you know, 65 millimeter. It's Technicolor. It's this saturated. Did I mean this, you know, like you said, lit with you know, I don't even I can't even fathom what kind of like one.
00:14:45:16 - 00:14:46:03
Cullen
Energy and.
00:14:46:03 - 00:15:01:04
Clark
Stuff like right seriously, it's like you've got to have an entire coal power plant just to, you know, power that set there. But and then you move to this this this less saturated Eastman cheaper Eastman Kodak film.
00:15:01:09 - 00:15:26:09
Cullen
Where films were lit naturally they you know even you think about the diner scene in this it's like the light that's coming in the window is what's lighting. Dennis Weaver, Conrad Hall, who is my personal favorite cinematographer. But he was like really one of the first American pioneers in terms of cinematography of someone to go, I'm going to light this scene with one shot, with one light, Like, I'm literally going to point to light the actor.
00:15:26:09 - 00:15:29:23
Cullen
I'm going to bounce it around with some mirrors. I'm going to get some cool stuff that way.
00:15:29:23 - 00:15:40:17
Clark
But when you're moving away from like high key lighting. Yeah. Which was so much a part of this, this older golden era of Hollywood, right, where everything is bright and beautiful. And, you know.
00:15:41:00 - 00:15:46:17
Cullen
You saw that move into TV. Much more like that became the look of of like, well, there's still this in television. Yeah a great.
00:15:46:17 - 00:16:05:17
Clark
Extent you know, any kind of comedy or multicamera show is almost always lit with that kind of high key. Yeah, kind of flatter light. But but yeah, I mean, this is so there's, there's technical things that are happening. There's budgetary things that are happening, right? Studios are saying, you know, it's if you don't have much money, you're going to go shoot at this cheaper film.
00:16:05:17 - 00:16:10:14
Clark
You don't need, you know, five Technicolor technicians there to, you know, make sure that your color is going to go.
00:16:10:14 - 00:16:25:08
Cullen
And studios are running out of money to like studios. Dolby, which I think came out a year after Funny Girl was the next Barbra Streisand Big musical, was a flop. It was a huge flop. And I think, again, you know, studios were just kind of like, what the hell do we do?
00:16:25:14 - 00:16:50:06
Clark
Well, when you've got baby boomers, right, you've got to look at all the things that are happening culturally to at least, you know, speak to it to here in this country. But I mean, you've got the Vietnam War. You've got, you know, political, you've got cynicism, you've got hippie movement, you've got civil rights movement, You've got you know, there's a lot of unrest, civil unrest and strife and struggle.
00:16:50:22 - 00:17:13:05
Clark
There's a lot of things happening. I think, you know, that that like compression of the fifties is like is now boiling over. And I think the you know, the art of that of of the of New Hollywood is showing that. And I think these films are finding audiences. You know, the baby boomer generation was gigantic and so there's this huge audience for this for these.
00:17:13:08 - 00:17:36:18
Cullen
And the the faith put into young directors like Coppola, Spielberg, Lucas Scorsese, he I think it's a one common sort of thing that is that this duel is not actually Spielberg's first feature length directing thing. He actually directed an episode of the name of the game, which was each episode was about 90 minutes. Oh, so.
00:17:36:18 - 00:17:37:09
Clark
So, okay.
00:17:37:20 - 00:17:58:14
Cullen
But it was that was strictly a TV episode, right? And again, when you look at that very much, that's formalist. TV's style of like shot in studio shot, whereas this was really just like Spielberg and his crew running around the desert and shooting stuff. Very. You had a really good word for it, which is that it was very running gun.
00:17:58:19 - 00:17:59:06
Clark
It sure did.
00:17:59:06 - 00:18:26:18
Cullen
Seem that it got it, that it feels and it sort of feels a lot like like I was sort of making the comparison to easy Rider in the way that like there's, you know, lens flares coming into the lens that they're shooting directly into the sun, that it's, you know, they're not these shots don't feel you know when the truck comes up and is in is chasing Dennis Hopper it doesn't feel like it was some grand orchestrated, perfected, rehearsed movement.
00:18:26:18 - 00:18:35:17
Cullen
It felt like someone in the car with Dennis Weaver trying to get all this stuff on on camera that it's shaky in it. And because of that, it feels very visceral.
00:18:35:17 - 00:18:36:08
Clark
Very visceral.
00:18:36:08 - 00:18:36:18
Cullen
Very.
00:18:36:18 - 00:18:37:22
Clark
Real and immersive.
00:18:38:07 - 00:18:48:03
Cullen
Immersive. Exactly. Yeah. Word for it and not very much, you know. And of course, you're a huge Mad Max fan. I know that it that it starts to kind of bleed into that territory.
00:18:48:03 - 00:19:09:21
Clark
Yeah it really it's it's, it's very kinetic. Yeah. Because I even, you know, being a huge Mad Max fan now, you know, and I have to admit to everyone out there so I had actually not seen Duel before preparation for this podcast. I hadn't seen it. I thought I had, but I had actually seen Sugarland Express. So I get 2 minutes into this film and I'm like, Wait a minute, I've never seen this.
00:19:10:07 - 00:19:38:20
Clark
So. So I was quite surprised at how much of this film made me think of Mad Max and the Road Warrior. I was. I was really surprised, but it had that so much of that same that visceral, you know, dirty, kinetic, visceral feel to it. Yeah, Yeah. I was really impressed. I was quite surprised that this was a made for TV film, frankly.
00:19:38:20 - 00:19:39:06
Clark
Yeah.
00:19:39:06 - 00:20:04:13
Cullen
And it's what I think is also something that that, you know, sort of comes up a lot in conversations about it. But I kind of want to emphasize is the like efficiency of the storytelling too. Yeah. That there's not time spent on, you know, getting to really know Dennis Weaver's motivations or his like that. It it really is like you plop in you know what you need to know about him?
00:20:04:19 - 00:20:05:16
Clark
No, no.
00:20:06:04 - 00:20:38:21
Cullen
Variation from the villain of like you never even see the truck drivers face except for a few glimpses. Just probably accidentally when he's like driving. You can see them. But I think it's interesting that you know, because even so, that I love the opening of this movie so much where it's it's you just a first person perspective of the car and like you can hear the radio that I stole that for a short film I did two years ago of just because I think that it's such a great worldbuilding thing of like your it was like, what a fantastically efficient way to get the themes of the movie in place by just having, you know,
00:20:38:21 - 00:20:49:16
Cullen
the opening credits roll over this guy going from his suburban, you know, home as like a businessman to driving through these, you know, you get the idea of the isolation that he's in. Yeah, but these roads are run deep in.
00:20:49:16 - 00:20:50:05
Clark
This city.
00:20:50:05 - 00:21:09:19
Cullen
And they're they're they're not safe necessarily to drive at high speeds on. Yeah. But you're also getting this overrun kind of like overview of of what this character does and he's flipping back and forth between these radio stations and you're getting these quite comedic kind of little segments of like the one man who's kind of emasculated by his wife because she's.
00:21:09:23 - 00:21:10:17
Clark
This huge.
00:21:10:21 - 00:21:15:16
Cullen
House and. Yeah, and so you can talk really well about this a little bit about it, you know.
00:21:15:18 - 00:21:37:03
Clark
Not having seen the film before. Right. This is one of the things that really first stuck out to me because of watching this. And I'm like, okay, you know, and of course, like yes, like you describe this POV shot I thought was extremely efficient, really, really efficient way of kind of showing us who this person is and where this is going to take place and bring us to the set and setting of the action, which is so important.
00:21:37:03 - 00:22:04:16
Clark
And I love the way that it showed this, this progression further and further away from civilization. But yeah, I mean, this radio program, this talk show comes on the radio and we it's it's talking about census and like that. A guy calls into this talk show and says, you know, well, starts talking, like you said, kind of comedically about, well, you know, should I put myself as the head of household?
00:22:04:16 - 00:22:26:06
Clark
It's like I'm the man, but I stay home and raise the kids and my wife goes out and and brings home the bacon. And he's like, I don't want to admit this. Like, what if my neighbors find out about this? And so, like, right off the bat, I get this extremely strong sense that there is that that this is kind of a theme of this film.
00:22:26:06 - 00:22:35:17
Clark
And I'm and I'm curious, I'm not quite sure what I think Spielberg is saying. I can't really quite tell if he has an opinion about this, frankly. Mm hmm. But it.
00:22:35:17 - 00:22:37:17
Cullen
Ought to come from the screenwriter.
00:22:37:17 - 00:22:38:19
Clark
Because I don't know it.
00:22:38:19 - 00:22:39:12
Cullen
Right. Of course.
00:22:39:12 - 00:23:00:09
Clark
But then but it's hard. But in the film, though, I can't quite tell if, you know, there's a part of me that it's it's very interesting because right in this whole film, the main character is being, you know, he's basically like a mouse being chased by a cat. And it's kind of the whole process of this is quite emasculating for him.
00:23:00:09 - 00:23:30:07
Clark
He's he doesn't have power, he doesn't have leverage. He doesn't have these things that are traditionally would be considered masculine. And we're looking at, you know, 1971. I think this is a time period when women are becoming more equal in the workplace. I mean, at least there's the beginning of this. They're working more. Feminism is, you know, I'm not an expert on these things, but I think, you know, it is becoming more prominent and women were more outspoken.
00:23:30:07 - 00:23:55:14
Clark
And so maybe this was some kind of response to that. I don't know. But it really did stand out to me. It kind of reads pretty ridiculous today, in my opinion, almost to the point of kind of I don't know, it feels parodic. It feels really it. Yeah, it feels really, you know, out of place and it feels pretty, pretty cheesy.
00:23:55:14 - 00:24:15:18
Clark
But I think that it might speak to that era. And again, it was hard for me to tell what you know, What's the Oberg stance on that? Was did he did he agree that he felt like if a woman is working and a man isn't, does that is that what masculinity is? I mean, I think I think viewpoints, hopefully, at least for most of us, have changed.
00:24:16:01 - 00:24:20:10
Clark
And that's not the case now. But yeah, it was interesting and I felt.
00:24:20:11 - 00:24:21:10
Cullen
Even just like the.
00:24:21:12 - 00:24:22:13
Clark
Throughout it, you know.
00:24:22:20 - 00:24:43:13
Cullen
Yeah. And that, that, you know, our main character is driving this like bright red. You know, smaller Plymouth car and he's being chased by this, you know, huge giant, you know, very blue collar, huge giant truck that's this brown, dirty, rusty thing. And it's sort of, you know, even sort of getting away from Spielberg for a moment, perhaps.
00:24:43:13 - 00:24:59:17
Cullen
The and I haven't read up on this, but but perhaps the intention with the screenplay was this idea that, yeah, it's it's like the the old workman like era is kind of being ushered out by this more business.
00:25:00:20 - 00:25:03:13
Clark
Which is considered softer or softer.
00:25:03:14 - 00:25:03:20
Cullen
Exactly.
00:25:03:21 - 00:25:07:12
Clark
Less masculine, less manly, less macho.
00:25:07:12 - 00:25:17:21
Cullen
And Dennis Weaver's by no means portrayed as some brave hero in this movie either. He sees No, honestly, kind of. It's again, it's comedic sort of how how almost cowardly he isn't moment.
00:25:17:21 - 00:25:19:01
Clark
Almost but it doesn't.
00:25:19:01 - 00:25:20:22
Cullen
His car doesn't go as fast and yeah.
00:25:20:23 - 00:25:26:01
Clark
Yeah it doesn't seem to me that it's supposed to it doesn't seem to me though, that it's supposed to be a parody.
00:25:26:12 - 00:25:27:23
Cullen
Or mocking it doesn't really feel.
00:25:28:00 - 00:25:28:13
Clark
No.
00:25:28:13 - 00:25:30:20
Cullen
It's cynical in that way, but it's just kind of.
00:25:31:05 - 00:25:51:03
Clark
But it's just this. Yeah, it's certainly a theme, I feel like. And so I think it'd be you could, in my opinion, make a very strong make a very strong argument that this film is kind of about this person's emasculation. And it was almost kind of like, I don't know if you've seen that film like falling down or something.
00:25:51:07 - 00:25:56:04
Clark
Yes. Yes. You know, it almost kind of like reminded me of that.
00:25:56:04 - 00:25:56:18
Cullen
Schumacher.
00:25:56:18 - 00:26:22:05
Clark
Film, right? In a certain sense. But yeah, you know, so I just thought that was another thing that stood out to me and I thought, you know, I'd have to go back and kind of study this because I'm not a historian. I'm not quite sure exactly what the the culture was regarding feminism in 1971, but it did definitely stand out to me as a theme for this episode or this this film pretty strongly.
00:26:22:14 - 00:26:34:05
Clark
So yeah, let's compare that then. So if we flash, we fast forward to, you know, 11 years to 1982. We have a very, very, very different film. You know, now Spielberg's 36.
00:26:35:23 - 00:26:37:04
Cullen
Of the biggest name in Hollywood.
00:26:37:04 - 00:26:47:03
Clark
He's kind of yeah, I mean, he's like, if he isn't, I don't know who else is maybe Coppola at this point. Maybe. But you've got, you know, what films does he have under his belt now by now?
00:26:47:03 - 00:26:49:18
Cullen
So he did Sugar Land next to Jaws.
00:26:49:18 - 00:26:50:08
Clark
Like Jaws.
00:26:50:08 - 00:26:51:23
Cullen
Close Encounters, closely.
00:26:51:23 - 00:26:53:23
Clark
Tied to huge Vegas.
00:26:54:00 - 00:26:58:10
Cullen
Raiders, which was a bit of a flop. But then he did Raiders, and now he's here on E.T., So yeah.
00:26:58:16 - 00:26:59:00
Clark
So he's got.
00:26:59:00 - 00:27:02:10
Cullen
Definitely, you know, kind of just a few notches in his blood. Just a.
00:27:02:10 - 00:27:10:01
Clark
Couple. Yeah, just a couple. But yeah, I mean, you've got Jaws, which, you know, many people claim kind of is the beginning of the blockbuster.
00:27:10:05 - 00:27:10:20
Cullen
Represented.
00:27:11:06 - 00:27:18:12
Clark
In, you know, huge films. And of course, E.T. itself went on to be mammoth. Gigantic.
00:27:19:03 - 00:27:41:08
Cullen
Yeah. One of my favorite movies as a kid. Yeah. I think it's very it's a very emotional movie. Yeah. I think one thing that's interesting, too, though, is that you look at just even the style that he uses for E.T. versus this. And I find it also interesting that he goes back to almost this formalism that like the the the shots in E.T. become very composed.
00:27:41:08 - 00:27:51:15
Cullen
The movements of the camera become very rehearsed, very accurate and articulate, much less of the handheld shakiness zooms. And but we like that.
00:27:52:01 - 00:27:54:19
Clark
But we stick with high contrast, like, yeah, they stick.
00:27:54:19 - 00:28:09:21
Cullen
With the we stick with a lot of those Spielberg isms and that that that new Hollywood sort of stuff that stuck around. Yeah yeah exactly. No more huge studio lights. A lot of us who did the cinematography for E.T. just love to like blast haze in the rooms and.
00:28:09:21 - 00:28:23:03
Clark
Oh my gosh, that's so thick. It's so funny. I got it just quick. I got It's, you know, in some of those. So you and I both mentioned this. We both talked about it. I mean, and if you haven't seen the film in a while, it might be hard to recall this. But, you know, I just finished watching it.
00:28:23:03 - 00:28:39:17
Clark
I've got the 4K HD disc released, so I watched it in that way on my old TV. And first of all, it looks just beautiful. Just beautiful all. But there is so much haze in the interiors and all the nighttime exteriors.
00:28:39:17 - 00:28:41:11
Cullen
Yeah, with the fog and such.
00:28:41:11 - 00:28:52:10
Clark
They're such that in the interiors, in a lot of those shots at 4K, I can literally see the haze rolling out of the fog machine. That must be.
00:28:52:10 - 00:28:55:18
Cullen
Like because I'm just off the air because it's hilarious.
00:28:55:18 - 00:29:00:07
Clark
I can literally like, it's like supposed to be a children, a child's bedroom.
00:29:00:14 - 00:29:12:13
Cullen
Well, I like that's in the one shot that always comes back to me is when Elliot fakes sick and wakes up in the morning and his mom goes out. I'm like, No, what you're seeing, it's like the beams of light that are coming through his window because he's got the blinds closed.
00:29:12:13 - 00:29:14:16
Clark
It's like, Mom, Mom, I'm.
00:29:14:18 - 00:29:16:03
Cullen
Stop smoking my house.
00:29:16:04 - 00:29:18:15
Clark
Pollution is like I can't breathe.
00:29:18:16 - 00:29:42:02
Cullen
I got smog alerts, but no, I think so. But I think that's a really good point that that the camera style and really not return to formalism in the sense that like it was you know because it's very rare in those like sixties big budget studio kind of behemoth musicals and stuff like that to even see a close up other than like very few dialog scenes where it was like and even then the closest they got was really a medium close up of there's.
00:29:42:02 - 00:29:42:23
Clark
Quite a few close ups.
00:29:43:05 - 00:30:05:08
Cullen
But in it, you know, it's a really interesting blend and I think it really talks to the era of filmmaking that really took over in the eighties, which was this like kind of best of both worlds example of like, let's take the freedom and the the realism of like new Hollywood, but let's combine that with the accuracy and the budgets of.
00:30:05:17 - 00:30:05:23
Clark
Old.
00:30:05:23 - 00:30:24:18
Cullen
Hollywood and like, get this, because of course, E.T. undeniably much larger budget than the duel. You know, it's a few more dollars sort of. Yeah, but but you look at just the like the way that those things, especially with Spielberg the through lines of those things that.
00:30:24:18 - 00:30:32:06
Clark
Have been said. I just want to pop in here real quick now. Sure. Obviously, this is $81, but its budget was still only ten and a half million.
00:30:33:04 - 00:30:38:22
Cullen
Which is. Yeah, I guess I mean, I think of how much money goes to like CGI these days and it's because.
00:30:39:00 - 00:30:46:14
Clark
I mean, I just want to pause on that for just a second. So sorry to interrupt you, but in a moment, I mean, just think about that for a second, though. Now, obviously.
00:30:46:19 - 00:30:48:11
Cullen
That's considered small budget. Now.
00:30:49:03 - 00:31:05:18
Clark
This is this is this is 19 $81. And so I you know, obviously we've had inflation. But and again, I don't want to like speak out of turn here. But you know I'm going to guess that 10,000,081 that's 40 years ago. Right.
00:31:05:18 - 00:31:07:04
Cullen
Would be 26 million today.
00:31:07:13 - 00:31:11:17
Clark
So there you go. Now, that is not even remotely.
00:31:12:02 - 00:31:12:18
Cullen
Large budget.
00:31:12:18 - 00:31:13:17
Clark
A large budget.
00:31:14:07 - 00:31:20:14
Cullen
That's for comparison. I'm going to look up Pete's Dragon, which was a that was Lowery Kids movie.
00:31:20:20 - 00:31:21:02
Clark
Yeah.
00:31:21:14 - 00:31:30:11
Cullen
And I go look at Pete's Dragon budget came out in 2016. $65 million for Pete's Dragon which is like a similar kind of content, which is, you know.
00:31:30:13 - 00:31:31:01
Clark
Is it like.
00:31:31:04 - 00:31:48:23
Cullen
Me, too? Yes, I actually it's David Lowery who did Old Man of the Gun and Ghost Story and a few other things. I really like him as a director, but he did this kid's movie. And but I think it's interesting, it's a really interesting point that even nowadays, if you see a movie that's ten, $10 million, that's like a Fox Searchlight.
00:31:48:23 - 00:31:51:17
Cullen
Yeah. Oh, Sony Pictures classics. Like, that's like a legacy.
00:31:51:18 - 00:31:52:04
Clark
Yeah.
00:31:52:07 - 00:32:10:12
Cullen
Yeah. Kind of like a one of those A24 movies. Like, we have a lot of their budgets are, you know, like if I go to Uncut Gems. Yeah see with the not a hard on budget that was Uncut Gems had a $90 million budget that's only really $5 million adjusted for inflation less than E.T..
00:32:10:16 - 00:32:11:10
Clark
Yeah so.
00:32:11:15 - 00:32:16:23
Cullen
That movie is very much seen as like a kind of like a very low budget. Great.
00:32:17:03 - 00:32:18:06
Clark
Oh, absolutely.
00:32:18:06 - 00:32:43:07
Cullen
So it is it is an interesting point that you make and technically goes very well with what we were talking about our last episode, which was this idea that big movies didn't used to have huge budgets. Yeah, they really didn't. And I and it's and it's again, it goes back to that whole idea that I kind of I mentioned last time, which is like when I was a kid and of course it came out, you know, 15 or so, 18 years before I was born.
00:32:43:12 - 00:33:03:17
Cullen
Yeah. But when I was a kid, the, you know, I grew up born 98, grew up in the early 2000s. The movies that I was watching even then, a lot of like large movies that were out in theaters that were getting accolades and getting really big press attention weren't huge budgets. They weren't 200 or $300 million. They were kind of similar.
00:33:03:17 - 00:33:39:10
Cullen
They were 20 to 30 million, maybe like 60 million was a big budget movie. Yeah, but now it's it's insane how much how much movies are made for. And but but with that being said, too, I think it's really interesting to look at the style of Spielberg that that really carries on through his work. And it's like you see again, this, this the shot that I mentioned to you before we were recording but the when Hopper runs out of the weaver, not Dennis Hopper Dennis Weaver always get those names confused but when he runs out of the store and it's like he's running after the truck as it pulls away and it's like probably a
00:33:39:21 - 00:34:00:11
Cullen
75 foot dolly track that goes laterally with with Weaver as he runs. Right. And it's such a Spielberg shot. Like, it's such a shot that you look at and you go like, yeah, that's that's very much something that Spielberg loves to do because then you watch E.T. and you get all these long dolly shots of them in the, you know, I think of the one in the forest when they're on the bike right before he flies.
00:34:00:15 - 00:34:18:07
Cullen
Yeah. You've got this cool dolly shot along with them. You've got you know, it's really interesting to me to see those through lines because a lot of times directors, there's some directors that really shift their style, like they don't necessarily stick with the same style or use similar camera moments again and again.
00:34:18:12 - 00:34:35:00
Clark
I think Spielberg definitely grew, you know. Yes. Between these films. I mean, you know, he had talked about the kinetic system of Duel, but what it is, I thought there was such an extraordinary efficiency with movement in it as well, but in a different way. Matured things to.
00:34:35:02 - 00:34:36:03
Cullen
Maturity. Yeah.
00:34:36:03 - 00:34:54:06
Clark
One of the things that really stood out with me on E.T. was that Spielberg would often not show the action as it was happening, but he would but he would bring the camera to look the half second after the action took place. So.
00:34:54:10 - 00:34:56:03
Cullen
So give me an example of what's so there.
00:34:56:03 - 00:35:14:11
Clark
Were so many places where now a lot of this is probably by necessity because of the limitations of special effects with E.T., with the creature. And we know that he's a smart guy. He didn't show us Jaws. I think he learned that on that film. But but even in duel, he knew. He's like, well, don't don't show the driver of the truck, Right?
00:35:14:13 - 00:35:15:19
Clark
Yeah. Keep that a mystery.
00:35:15:19 - 00:35:16:21
Cullen
The truck is the villain.
00:35:16:21 - 00:35:32:20
Clark
The truck is the villain. And with Jaws, it was a focus on suspense and it was like it. Look, you know, again, it was kind of a necessity, but it worked out to be great. It was like, look, don't show, don't show the shark. Don't show the shark. You know, build that up to the very end. And with E.T., it's like you see so much of it.
00:35:32:20 - 00:35:42:06
Clark
You see like the trail that the action has left. Yeah, it was almost like it's like. It's like, almost like the camera's like a half second late, you know.
00:35:42:07 - 00:35:46:09
Cullen
Especially at near the beginning of the picture when. Yes, he, like, runs off in the bushes shaking.
00:35:46:11 - 00:36:06:15
Clark
There's a ton of these little moments, though, where you see and we get to infer what's happened and we get to he invites us actively to be a part of the storytelling. And I think that is one of the one of Spielberg's biggest assets as a filmmaker. And I think it really comes into his own on this film.
00:36:06:15 - 00:36:11:16
Clark
I mean, not to say that he hadn't on previous films, but I mean, you really see it here and he's but I.
00:36:11:16 - 00:36:15:20
Cullen
Think that his work with with child actors in this movie is.
00:36:15:20 - 00:36:17:05
Clark
Phenomenal. Amazing. Yeah.
00:36:17:05 - 00:36:19:22
Cullen
Do you like the performances that he gets out of these kids?
00:36:19:22 - 00:36:20:23
Clark
It's outstanding.
00:36:21:03 - 00:36:42:22
Cullen
I can I can honestly say I've never seen a movie since or before that where where child actors there's certainly been movies that had amazing child actors that have made sense but that like the the naturalness of the conversations of what's funny, too, is that I don't know how old your siblings are or your brother. Yeah, but.
00:36:43:02 - 00:36:44:21
Clark
33, 30.
00:36:44:21 - 00:37:07:02
Cullen
So you're the older sibling? Yeah, I was the youngest. Like I was I related so much to Elliott in this movie because I was I'm four years younger than my brother, which doesn't seem like much, but it's a really big thing when you're growing up. Sure. And on the street that we lived, the street that I grew up on, all of the kids were my brother's age, so it was the exact like, there's nothing that that screams to me.
00:37:07:02 - 00:37:21:17
Cullen
This is my childhood. More than Elliott coming in on their card game, trying to be a part of it and being shut off. It's like, Go get the pizza. That was me. That was literally my childhood growing up. You know, they'd be playing Gamecube downstairs or Nintendo Switch or whatever. I'd want to come play Mario Kart with them.
00:37:21:17 - 00:37:24:11
Cullen
And it was like, No, no, no. Like, go get the pizza. And maybe you can play a race.
00:37:24:20 - 00:37:25:04
Clark
It's like.
00:37:25:04 - 00:37:28:01
Cullen
This, this exact it's incredible how much.
00:37:28:06 - 00:37:28:17
Clark
That were.
00:37:28:22 - 00:37:40:16
Cullen
Even my brother actually watched this is probably two years ago now but he watched it again just casually and texted me after and he was like, you're literally the kid from E.T. And it's just really funny to me.
00:37:40:16 - 00:37:55:05
Clark
I do find this to be really extraordinary, you know? So I was you know, the movie came out in 82. I was six years old and I saw it in the theater and I made my parents take me. I think I saw it probably five times right when I was a kid. And I was talking to my brother last night.
00:37:55:05 - 00:38:07:19
Clark
And, you know, so my brother's is ten years younger than me. And he said that it was a huge film for his childhood, too. And and then here you are, you know.
00:38:07:23 - 00:38:09:09
Cullen
Echoing the same sentiment.
00:38:09:10 - 00:38:16:20
Clark
Echoing that exact same sentiment. And you're 30 years off or whatever now. 30 years, 20 years, 20 years. Sorry, you're not you're not 12.
00:38:17:00 - 00:38:18:21
Cullen
But yeah.
00:38:20:01 - 00:38:44:11
Clark
But, but it's amazing to me how you know, and it's like so I was an only child when I saw the film and I saw it, but but I felt like I mean, I had no problem, you know, putting myself into that right position. But yeah, and my I think my brother probably felt, you know, some of the similar sentiments as you, because I probably would have been I was like my brother would come down into my room and be like, Let's play play Nintendo.
00:38:44:11 - 00:38:46:09
Clark
And I'd be like, Go get me a soda.
00:38:46:19 - 00:39:14:08
Cullen
And yeah, well, even and even going beyond that to like my parents divorced when I was very young, so. Oh yeah, growing up in this, like, like that was like, that's what I find so remarkable about the realism in which it portrays these family dynamics. And I think that that's what's missing from so many. I kind of, you know, in my circle of friends refer to it as like it ushered in the Amblin era of family movies, which were these like realistic kind of family dramas that were masquerading as these family pictures.
00:39:14:08 - 00:39:28:20
Cullen
So like Mrs. Doubtfire, another one that I used to. Nobody has ever seen this movie except for me. But I one of my favorite movies as a kid. Magic in the Water. Yeah, basically an E.T. rip off, but it's like it's set in like British life.
00:39:28:20 - 00:39:31:08
Clark
And I thought E.T. Rip off was makin me.
00:39:31:19 - 00:39:54:20
Cullen
That, too. I'd never actually saw Mac in me, though. Never saw that. But. But it's this, this, this. Like again, I called the Amblin kind of era free willy similar where it's like this family drama about this like orphaned kid who you know very much a family drama but masquerading as this like family kind of extraordinary, somewhat hinging on the supernatural, you know, relationship with this whale.
00:39:54:20 - 00:40:10:11
Cullen
And it's like this is the same thing where you get the sci fi elements in this family. So I think that's really the brilliance of it is that, you know, especially growing up watching E.T. and being able to point to it and not only say like, hey, that kid's you know, he's a he's a ten year old boy.
00:40:10:11 - 00:40:24:19
Cullen
I relate to that. But like the dynamics of the siblings, the dynamics of his parents being so so, you know, my dad didn't go off to Mexico, but so true and so real to me as a kid.
00:40:25:02 - 00:40:36:11
Clark
Well, I know that Spielberg has said that. And I think I think maybe he's he says this still today. I he has at some point. So I don't know if he was still saying this, but I know he's, you know, said in the past that this is his most personal film.
00:40:36:15 - 00:40:53:00
Cullen
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. He describes it as a response to close encounters, too, because he says that the ending of Close Encounters, where, you know, the main character or whatever his name is, walks off with the the Richard Dreyfuss is the actor, of course. But Mr..
00:40:53:00 - 00:40:54:02
Clark
Holland, Mr. Holland.
00:40:54:10 - 00:41:27:12
Cullen
Walks off with. Yeah, walks off with the aliens, like leaves his family, basically abandons his family, goes off Right. Said that Spielberg has always said that that ending really bothered him. Yeah. And that you know so he remade the ending really with but but it's about families, about friendship, it's about the everlasting kind of and we kind of again, discussed this a little bit before were recording but the idea that he it's not goodbye like it's not even though he may never see E.T. again that like this idea that friendship can transcend.
00:41:27:13 - 00:41:27:23
Clark
Yeah.
00:41:28:21 - 00:41:38:21
Cullen
Space and time and that you like you'll always remember him And it's what's funny too is that there was actually supposed there was a planned sequel not directed by Spielberg, but there is there was plans for a sequel to come out where there that.
00:41:39:00 - 00:41:58:12
Clark
I heard that the studio kind of pushed and Spielberg even tried briefly to come up with some story ideas that he might consider worthy and that Spielberg said he couldn't come up with any ideas. And so he said, look, you know, the film is perfect. Let's leave it at that. And the end the studio agreed. But you're saying there, there.
00:41:58:15 - 00:42:11:00
Cullen
So there was there was there was development, too. I don't think it was ever like in serious development, but the plot was going to be that E.T. comes back to Elliot when he's like a teenager and Elliot wants nothing to do with them.
00:42:11:06 - 00:42:13:02
Clark
It's just I'm just playing.
00:42:13:02 - 00:42:16:05
Cullen
My alien friend comes back and you, I'm too cool for you.
00:42:16:05 - 00:42:23:07
Clark
He said, All right, you just, like, traverse, you know, like the galaxy. Yeah. And I'm not going to beat you. I'm sorry.
00:42:23:07 - 00:42:26:04
Cullen
Which seems very much like something that would have come out in the late eighties. Early.
00:42:26:04 - 00:42:26:21
Clark
And it does, But.
00:42:26:21 - 00:42:28:06
Cullen
But, but no, I'm.
00:42:28:06 - 00:42:29:08
Clark
Glad they didn't do that.
00:42:29:08 - 00:42:47:21
Cullen
And I just, you know, there's this like, even I saw one of my favorite experiences. I've had watching a movie was I saw E.T. in 2016, I think, with a live orchestra. Oh, it was like a real orchestra. Playing with the movie was it was at the was called the Sony Center back then. It's called Something Else Now.
00:42:47:21 - 00:43:00:19
Cullen
But in Toronto, so huge venue like big like 100 person orchestra. That's beautiful, beautiful experience. But like the moments of sadness in this movie are genuinely sad. Oh, my.
00:43:00:19 - 00:43:01:19
Clark
Gosh. Yeah, I was.
00:43:01:19 - 00:43:02:16
Cullen
About to die, and.
00:43:02:22 - 00:43:03:19
Clark
I was just watching.
00:43:03:19 - 00:43:04:22
Cullen
My God, I just.
00:43:04:22 - 00:43:05:05
Clark
And Drew.
00:43:05:05 - 00:43:05:18
Cullen
Barrymore.
00:43:06:00 - 00:43:07:23
Clark
Cast and I was like, oh, my gosh.
00:43:08:02 - 00:43:24:20
Cullen
Like, like that. That reaction when when it dies and Drew Barrymore just, oh, doesn't know what to. It's heartbreaking. And what I find is, again, I find it. So I remember this is kind of more of an anecdote, but I think what's so interesting about the movie, too, is that everyone has kind of personal stories related to it.
00:43:26:07 - 00:43:39:20
Cullen
And there was this YouTube guy that was like probably back in 2010 that used to do all these. He was like reviewing all of Spielberg's. Yeah, that's what his name's YouTube. Yeah, I care what I think. Dawn Pfeiffer was his name. I think I don't know where he is now, but he had like.
00:43:39:20 - 00:43:40:04
Clark
Guy.
00:43:40:16 - 00:43:59:13
Cullen
Yeah. So YouTube guy, he had probably like a thousand subscribers was not big by any means, but I stumbled across this channel somehow and was watching. He was doing this like all, all he was going through all of Spielberg's movies and reviewing them all. And his E.T. one was the longest, like most of his reviews were 20 minutes is E.T. one was like 45 minutes.
00:43:59:19 - 00:44:16:14
Cullen
And the reason was because he was talking about how him and a really close childhood friend of his, like, loved like they watched E.T., They kind of bonded over E.T. and they felt like really strong friendship over this idea, like, oh, maybe an alien will come to visit us. Yeah. And his friend, you know, he was probably I think he said he was like eight or nine when this happened.
00:44:16:14 - 00:44:35:15
Cullen
And, you know, in the years after it came out, you know, a year or so later, his friend got, I don't know with what but died. And so he discusses this like that E.T. is a movie that he rarely watches, not because he doesn't like it, but that because it's such a like, impactful movie to him that he can't do emotional.
00:44:35:18 - 00:44:57:13
Cullen
Yeah, like he watches it and he just he turns into a blubbering mess when he watches it. And I just remember watching that. And again, it's it's what I think is so remarkable that it's it's it's literally a kid's movie. And this kind of impact of, you know, what kid's movie has come out in the past 20 years that has had anywhere near the impact on people's lives that this did.
00:44:57:19 - 00:45:00:04
Cullen
You know, that's what I think is so remarkable about it.
00:45:00:04 - 00:45:02:09
Clark
Probably Harry Potter films, I think.
00:45:02:11 - 00:45:03:23
Cullen
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point.
00:45:04:05 - 00:45:06:01
Clark
Yeah. If you put yourself into the. But even.
00:45:06:01 - 00:45:11:00
Cullen
Then like it would be the earlier the earlier Harry Potter movies and even then I would say that those movies.
00:45:12:01 - 00:45:14:20
Clark
Don't look, I'm not arguing that they're as good as E.T., trust me.
00:45:15:00 - 00:45:30:05
Cullen
Oh, no, no. But I mean, they they they don't even have to me. And I grew up with those movies as well, but they don't really have the emotional toll, especially like the earlier ones, I think are the good ones. And, you know, they kind of fall apart near the end. But but I think that that's even Harry Potter.
00:45:30:05 - 00:45:54:19
Cullen
I would say that's a really good example of something that got close. But even then, like I in terms of shaping lives and I mean, of course there are people who are super fans of Harry Potter, just like Star Wars. But I think just from the content alone, just from the emotional subject matter of the content, I don't really think there's anything like E.T., I don't think there's anything arguably that might ever be made again and again.
00:45:54:19 - 00:46:00:21
Cullen
I talk about all my love for these Amblin type movies, which is like, you know, Mrs. Doubtfire, free and.
00:46:01:12 - 00:46:21:05
Clark
Beyond that. I mean, we talked a little bit. You know, it's, you know, again, to kind of like examine the landscape a little bit, to contrast it. I mean, we talked we barely touched on it. But, you know, the difference of 1971 and 1982, it's not just that E.T. is one of the first films of this, you know, exploding blockbuster era.
00:46:21:05 - 00:46:42:12
Clark
I mean, we really see a reshaping of what films are produced, how they're produced, how they're released, audience taste. I mean, we're seeing a big shift here. But, you know, we also see something interesting, I think, in the I would say, you know, it's not like this is the first film, but it was, I think in the first couple of years of this happening.
00:46:42:12 - 00:47:02:10
Clark
But these I don't know how to say it, but like teen centered films, right? Or kids. Yeah, films. So and you draw a distinction. Think it's important. It's not family films, but yes, films where the main characters are kids or teenagers and and they're not looked down upon necessarily.
00:47:02:10 - 00:47:06:21
Cullen
Yeah. But they square and they Yeah, they're, they're portrayed realistically. Right.
00:47:06:21 - 00:47:25:14
Clark
And so you've got films you know everything from can kind of bracket it for you know it's like you have films that are like Goonies which are still pretty much like family friendly, but you know, they're treating the children as actual human beings and main characters. And then, you know, the other side too. You have like you have Fast Times at Ridgemont High.
00:47:25:14 - 00:47:27:06
Clark
You even have films like Porky's.
00:47:27:06 - 00:47:36:10
Cullen
You've even like some like Empire of the Sun, which is another Spielberg movie that was kind of Christian Bale's big break, but it's very much centered on him as a kid in in the Second World War.
00:47:36:10 - 00:47:37:22
Clark
I don't think there were a ton of those.
00:47:38:06 - 00:47:38:23
Cullen
Before.
00:47:38:23 - 00:47:39:02
Clark
I.
00:47:39:02 - 00:47:39:15
Cullen
Don't know.
00:47:39:17 - 00:47:50:16
Clark
No, certainly not centered around, you know, children or teenagers or adolescents being main characters. And so I think this this kind of was a big part of that shift.
00:47:51:18 - 00:47:55:03
Cullen
And I you know, what I think is actually interesting about you having mentioned Harry Potter.
00:47:55:09 - 00:47:55:17
Clark
Mm hmm.
00:47:55:22 - 00:48:04:09
Cullen
I think the most even though Christopher Columbus, who like did Home Alone, which is, you know, arguably sort of a similar stature of that type of thing, The kid in Home Alone, Right.
00:48:04:09 - 00:48:07:11
Clark
Cute. Quite as he was wrote it in Columbus. Directed it. Yeah.
00:48:07:11 - 00:48:16:10
Cullen
Right. Yes. Okay. And so but you look at I think they both returned actually for the second. Columbus definitely did. And I think John Hughes wrote the second as well. But no, that was.
00:48:16:10 - 00:48:18:18
Clark
Right near the end of his career. Yeah, right. Yeah.
00:48:18:18 - 00:48:49:08
Cullen
Yeah. But I think it's interesting that you mention Harry Potter because so Christopher Columbus directed the first two and then Cuaron the third. Yeah, of Prisoner of Azkaban, which I think is the best Harry Potter movie. But that is because it is it is done in that style. And I think where you lose it with the fourth and onwards of Harry Potter is that you get into this very this kind of modern era of like young adult novels where it's like, oh, we're seriously cool.
00:48:49:08 - 00:48:50:15
Cullen
We're like movies.
00:48:50:15 - 00:48:52:03
Clark
What was the vampire one?
00:48:53:11 - 00:48:57:10
Cullen
Oh, the mortal instrument. Oh, Twilight, Twilight, Twilight guy. So, I.
00:48:57:10 - 00:48:58:10
Clark
Mean, these are all films.
00:48:58:10 - 00:49:30:11
Cullen
And so that's what I found. The later Harry Potter movies kind of got into. But the third one especially really stuck with this this kind of amplification like, say, Amblin, because of course, that's Spielberg's company. Yeah, but the that and his get this this real Yeah and his first Yeah exactly And you get this realistic approach of of childhood and I think it's it's really funny again that you did mention Harry Potter because again that that those first three really do follow that formula.
00:49:31:13 - 00:49:41:12
Clark
Well I couldn't speak to it you know I haven't I've seen the Harry Potter films, but I have not seen them in so long. And I have to be honest, they did not make a substantial impact on me. Yeah.
00:49:41:12 - 00:50:06:05
Cullen
No, I mean, again, I, I grew up in the ripe era to love those movies and I never really was super interested in them. But three was the one that really like three is actually very, very good. But, but no, I think it's again, it's interesting that this this again, this era of of films like movies that you could bring the whole family to see but that aren't pandering that they're not going to the.
00:50:07:01 - 00:50:29:18
Clark
Spielberg clearly I mean people have talked about this for you know I mean this is something that every film critic who's ever even, you know, tossed to a casual glance Spielberg's way, has noted that he really does have, you know, his especially in his early work, that his the child inside of him was. Yes. You know, he was he had such ready access to that.
00:50:29:18 - 00:50:51:10
Clark
And you talked about, you know, working with actors, eliciting, you know, amazing performances from young actors. And I think that's a big part of it. You watch the beats stuff, you know, of which there's about at least an hour of on the E.T. disk and maybe on YouTube or other places where it's just, you know, kind of raw footage of Spielberg.
00:50:51:10 - 00:51:11:03
Clark
And a lot of it is of him working with the actors. And you can really see I mean, he had an extraordinary rapport. He really had an amazing intuition about how to work with these kids. But even with, you know, the the content, with the writing, with I mean, he really did know how to tap into, like the heart of children.
00:51:11:13 - 00:51:11:20
Clark
Yeah.
00:51:12:00 - 00:51:39:14
Cullen
And and and to make things such to a like kids movies before E.T. or movies that I would say adults didn't have interested in that that like as a parent you wouldn't really pay attention or it was kind of a slog to bring your kid to go see it because it was like, Right, I'm going have to sit through this, you know, this cartoon or this this silly like movie about some, you know, dancing orphans or something.
00:51:39:23 - 00:51:44:11
Cullen
Yeah, not that I don't like Oliver Twist, but but then when.
00:51:44:11 - 00:51:47:09
Clark
You said dancing, dancing orphans, I thought you were talking about Annie.
00:51:47:10 - 00:52:11:18
Cullen
Oh, Annie, too. Yeah. There you go. But then you get to this point of of Spielberg, which is, like, not only are. Is the movie good? Just from a technical standpoint? Like, not only is it well-made, well produced, but it's it's accessible to such a wide variety of people that, like you can be a parent and go into this and relate to the dynamics of like a mother wanting to protect her kids.
00:52:11:18 - 00:52:30:12
Cullen
You can be a kid and go into this and relate to the idea of like this school. I mean, even when I visited you in California, I remember one of the first things I said when we were in your neighborhood was I was like, this reminder this your neighborhood reminds me of it. Yeah, it's not that. But those like those wide streets, those rolling kind of, you know, California hills.
00:52:30:12 - 00:52:34:19
Clark
And we live in a very similar looking place. Yes. And yeah.
00:52:34:19 - 00:53:00:18
Cullen
But it, you know, to to for me to think about that, to make a movie that is, you know, it's family friendly, that is that it's sort of centered on kids and have it have such a cultural impact is is really and it to me it really is inspired me a lot as a as a filmmaker because I also realize like there's a lot of times when people really want to go the extra mile of cynicism and they want to go the extra mile of like violence and drama.
00:53:00:18 - 00:53:20:18
Cullen
And I remember a friend of mine and I were writing this short a few years ago, and it was like he wrote the first draft and then asked me to basically do like a punch up revision of it. And one of the things that I talked to him about while we were doing it was I was like, Can I take out like all of the adult stuff?
00:53:21:04 - 00:53:39:16
Cullen
Like, can I just strip it of like the really, really adult oriented content that would make it kind of like an R-rating, kind of like the more like gritty violence, lots of swearing and stuff like that. I was like, Can I strip that away if you don't like it, we can go back to it. But let me try and turn this into something that's a lot more sort of Amblin esque, which is like this, like that.
00:53:39:16 - 00:53:50:16
Cullen
It's still like there's still like a little bit of swearing. There's still kind of these, like more mature themes. But at the same time, it's got like a really nice message to it. It's cool.
00:53:50:17 - 00:53:51:11
Clark
Right? Right.
00:53:51:11 - 00:54:12:01
Cullen
Yeah, it's really sort of heartwarming at the end. It's very emotional. The movie's never been made just because it would require a budget. But but no, I remember like thinking about that and kind of thinking back to this idea of just like, you know, you can make content that that children can see. Yeah. That doesn't also shy away from more serious topics.
00:54:12:01 - 00:54:33:21
Clark
And I think it's like. Right. I think yes, it's it's like it's it's real. It's emotionally real. Yeah. And there is like and so that realness to it is like, you know, yeah. You know, kids use certain language and you know, in real life and all these kind of things. So it has like a realness to it, but it's not, it's, it doesn't have like mean intentions.
00:54:33:21 - 00:54:52:17
Clark
It doesn't have like, like the heart is in a good like you feel like all of these films like I'm going back and I'm looking at all of these Amblin movies, you know, in everything from Poltergeist to Gremlins, Goonies, Back to the Future, I mean, Inner space, you know, so many of these films I had forgotten how many films they had produced.
00:54:52:17 - 00:55:00:21
Clark
I mean, they do get into a little bit like, for instance, in 91 they actually produced Cape Fear, which is a little bit of an anomaly.
00:55:00:21 - 00:55:06:01
Cullen
If you will. Yeah. Which was originally supposed to be Spielberg too. That did it. Yeah. He swapped out on that for Schindler's List with Scorsese.
00:55:06:03 - 00:55:18:20
Clark
But now we have films like Saving Private Ryan, you know, which are quite different. But yeah, I mean, for the most part there's like this, this, this goodness. I don't know if like a better one, I.
00:55:18:20 - 00:55:22:16
Cullen
Would almost say like, it's like genuine. Like again, I refer to it as this.
00:55:22:18 - 00:55:23:06
Clark
Goodness.
00:55:23:06 - 00:55:42:22
Cullen
Too. There's this idea that there's there's no cynicism to Yes and I like that that it's not it's not taking the subject matter like, yeah, I'm asking it or being cynical about like the truth of life and stuff like that. It's that's a good even down to Schindler's List, which is arguably probably Spielberg's most difficult movie to watch.
00:55:44:01 - 00:56:12:02
Cullen
And I know that it gets a lot of criticism for people like, I know Hanukkah said, like Michael, Hanukkah said that it was like too happy at the end, which I don't find. I don't think it's a very happy ending, but I don't think it's like I've never really been one to punish Spielberg for, like, the sentimental sentimentality that he has or the just the idea of like the the, the general optimism that he tends to put into a lot of his movies.
00:56:12:20 - 00:56:27:05
Cullen
I've always just kind of been like, it's somewhat of a nice break sometimes. Yeah, because so many movies are very nihilistic or very cynical. They are. It's sometimes it's nice to kind of, you know, watch a movie and be like, that made me feel good.
00:56:27:18 - 00:56:39:00
Clark
And you know what? And you know what I feel like I feel the same way about podcast sometimes. It's nice to have a podcast where when you get to the end of it, you just feel good.
00:56:39:04 - 00:56:40:00
Cullen
Yeah, I hope so.
00:56:40:11 - 00:56:46:14
Clark
And I hope that that's what everybody out there listening. If you've made it this far and I hope that you feel good.
00:56:46:19 - 00:56:47:03
Cullen
Yeah.
00:56:47:14 - 00:57:01:06
Clark
So I know that I do. Having had this conversation, I always enjoy these, these discussions. Colin and I look forward to where we go next now that we have expanded our horizons.
00:57:01:06 - 00:57:03:07
Cullen
Yeah, the sky's the limit, baby.
00:57:03:08 - 00:57:17:00
Clark
And our options. So. So it'll be fun to see what what we, what we decide to go to next. But thank you so much, everybody, for hanging in there with us. We hope we enjoyed it. And Colin, until next time, everyone. Take care.
00:57:17:00 - 00:57:19:22
Cullen
Yeah. Bye bye.