Cullen
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I am Cullen McFater, joined as always by Clark Coffey. And today we're going to be doing something a little bit different for episode 28. We are going to be as opposed to what we usually do, which we've been doing recently, which is kind of going through Herzog's filmography.
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Cullen
One thing that I realized the last time we recorded was that we were always kind of talking about like personal anecdotes about whether it's like our careers or our lives or kind of how we got into movies and things like that. And I just thought, you know, it might be a cool idea to just do an episode where we don't necessarily focus on a movie or we don't focus on the master class, but rather we just kind of focus on you know, our careers and we kind of just, yeah, talk a little bit about and ask questions to each other about a little more.
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Clark
Personal, if you will, again, where.
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Cullen
Our love for film came from and stuff like that. Right.
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Clark
And of course, you know, like kind of weaving, you know, how we came to discover Herzog and his, you know, films and and his kind of philosophy of filmmaking, which obviously has impacted us. But yeah, this would be kind of a little more freeform and personal, if you will. It's like maybe we could consider this a special episode.
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Clark
Yes.
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Cullen
Yeah. Subscribers only.
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Clark
The.
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Cullen
$0 fee.
00:01:26:22 - 00:01:33:15
Clark
Exactly. Exactly. For all of you who've like, contributed so much, this is your extra special. Yeah.
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Cullen
Yeah, exactly. But I mean I guess, you know, without further ado.
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Clark
Yeah, why.
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Cullen
Don't you just kind of take us off and where did you. You know, get your love for film? Where did it come from for you?
00:01:45:02 - 00:02:20:08
Clark
So, yeah, I mean, interesting question. I it's always fun for me. I think, you know, I have had this conversation with so many people. It's fun to hear other stories about how they kind of fell in love with film. So I'm excited to hear yours. But for me, I mean, you know, basically when I was a kid, probably, you know, five, six, seven years old, I remember that my parents used to like, you know, maybe once a month or something, invite their friends over and they would have movie nights at our house and and just for whatever.
00:02:20:13 - 00:02:44:01
Clark
It's just what they loved. They would they would always get these like, you know, the genre flicks, like cheesy horror movies, you know. I mean, at the time in the eighties, it would have been like even stuff like Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. I remember they would rent. And, you know, this is kind of at the beginning of VHS being able to rent VHS, VHS movies right there was no blockbuster, but there were independent video stores.
00:02:44:11 - 00:03:11:08
Clark
And so my my dad would go out and rent, you know, Friday the 13th or whatever, you know, slasher movie genre flicks and invite friends over. And they would watch so well, of course, you know, they made me go away up to my room, like, I'm not watching this stuff. But of course, you know, it's like I can hear them laughing and I can hear like they're having all this fun and I can hear the the screams and the sound effects and everything and the, you know, the intense music, you know, coming up the stairs into my room.
00:03:11:08 - 00:03:29:15
Clark
So, of course, you know, I'm going to sneak down. And I you know, I remember very specifically I would sneak like halfway down the stairs and there was like this mirror on the on the hallway that if I kind of snuck halfway down the stairs, I could look at the TV in the mirror. And, you know, this is like back in the days, you know, yes, I'm going to date myself.
00:03:29:15 - 00:03:37:09
Clark
I'm old. But this is back in the days when, you know, I think we might have had a 25 or 27 inch TVs. So you can imagine that's what I grew up with, too. Yeah. Like. Like not.
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Cullen
Sedated. Yeah.
00:03:39:08 - 00:03:56:13
Clark
You can imagine. You know, I'm like, on the other end of the house, like, watching it through a mirror. So it's, you know, it's this big postage stamp, basically, you know, But it was just, you know, because it was kind of I could see everybody having so much fun and it was kind of taboo. I mean, that's, you know, that that kind of really got me interested.
00:03:56:13 - 00:04:19:14
Clark
So, you know, it through this process. One of the films that my my dad rented and my parents watched with their friends was Mad Max, the original Mad Max and I somehow I you know, it was still around the house. They hadn't taken it back yet. And I, you know, snuck back. You know, maybe it was like after my parents had gone to bed or maybe they were working or distracted.
00:04:19:14 - 00:04:43:14
Clark
I don't remember. But I pop the tape in. And then I remember watching Mad Max for the first time, and I was absolutely, positively, completely and totally just blown away, like, just, just totally blown away. And and and the Road Warrior as well. And those are like two of the films that that really in my earliest years had, I mean, some of the biggest impact on me.
00:04:43:14 - 00:05:07:14
Clark
So, so Mad Max, two of the Road Warrior and Mad Max but but also I mean, this is you know, I grew up in an era of, you know, the original Indiana Jones and and the Temple of Doom and the original Star Wars films, you know. So this is these were kind of huge for me. Jaws and Close Encounters of the Third kind, you know.
00:05:07:14 - 00:05:34:19
Clark
So a lot of Spielberg, a lot of Lucas George Miller, like I said, with Road Warrior, Mad Max. But yeah, I mean, really, it was these like combination of kind of the very first kind of wave of what would be an era of blockbuster films E.T., Jaws, Close Encounters, Star Wars, but then like these Grindhouse kind of genre flicks, I mean, you know, Mad Max and Road Warrior were genre flicks back then.
00:05:34:19 - 00:05:44:20
Clark
They were Matter of fact, Mad Max was released in the States, I think, after the Road Warrior was released because it was roadway or was kind of, you know, had more popularity, it's kind of.
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Cullen
Like almost like a yeah, the comeback almost.
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Clark
And I remember even like I remember for the longest time when I would watch Mad Max, it was dubbed, you know, so Mel Gibson was dubbed over because the distributor thought that, you know, people Americans wouldn't be able to understand Australian accents. So it was it it was even dubbed, you know, so it's like his bad VHS dub.
00:06:05:11 - 00:06:32:16
Clark
But I you know, I literally I mean, I watched The Road Warrior so many times as a kid that, you know, my dad would have to keep going back to the store to rent it before you could really buy. You couldn't buy VHS tapes for home. And if you if you owned a rental store, it would cost you to a VHS copy of a movie, might cost, you know, five, six, seven, $800 or more, because at that time, the studios thought that it was a threat for people to be able to actually own movies.
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Clark
You know, just before studios kind of was like DVDs and like, Oh, hey, you know, this is actually a big revenue stream. So they really weren't weren't priced for consumers and consumers. The the the the guy at the store gave us the tape. My dad rented it so many times. He literally gave us he.
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Cullen
Basically probably paid off the.
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Clark
Yeah. The price of it. Yeah. But I don't know you know at least that's the story. That's what my dad tells me. Money. But yeah, I mean, I'd probably seen that movie 200 times. Seriously, as a kid, you know how it is as a kid. You watch this? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this was kind of like my first, you know, I was so spellbound just as an audience member.
00:07:10:12 - 00:07:36:14
Clark
It wasn't until many, many years later and we can kind of talk about that, that process after you, you know, tell me kind of your first, you know, kind of impact that film had on you in the beginning. But it was it was years later before I had an idea that it was something I could do, that this was like something that people actually that there was this whole profession in this industry, you know, But but in the beginning it was just, oh my gosh, my mind is blown.
00:07:36:22 - 00:07:50:18
Clark
I am like, I am so spellbound and just this is the most magical, amazing thing. I didn't even probably think it was like real human beings doing this stuff. You know what I mean? It was magic. It was just magic to me. So, yeah. What about you, man?
00:07:51:01 - 00:07:57:04
Cullen
I mean, I it's funny. For me, I have like three. Really specific movies that kind of shaped it.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
And there were all movies that I watched when I was really young. Arguably too young to probably see them.
00:08:02:03 - 00:08:04:14
Clark
Yeah, like me too. I feel like. Yeah, yeah.
00:08:04:14 - 00:08:10:19
Cullen
But I saw the first one really, I think was was Rear Window. Okay. And my dad was always a big Hitchcock fan and much.
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Clark
More highbrow than my exposure. Yeah. Oh.
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Cullen
I mean, they're both great in their own right, but I remember, I think what's funny to me about watching Rear Window when I was, you know, probably five or six, is that it wasn't dated to me because that was the only scary thing I'd ever seen.
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Clark
Okay.
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Cullen
So like, it wasn't like I was watching something from the fifties. It felt like it was contemporary and that this was just what horror movies were. Yeah. And so I wasn't really watching it through a lens of like, this is an old movie that came out years ago. I was, you know, watching it from this lens that like, this was contemporary, This was, you know, now, Yeah.
00:08:45:09 - 00:09:02:18
Clark
I mean, I just I don't know. It's so interesting. I just want to capture this thought. You know, I had that experience, too, with films like the 1953 War of the Worlds, that was, oh, yeah, I feel that I you kind of ah, you sparked this memory. It was like that was also a film that I was just in love with as a kid, and I would rent all the time and I was fascinated by it.
00:09:02:18 - 00:09:11:16
Clark
And you're right, It's like when I was a kid, I really didn't have a concept of like, this is dated. Yeah, exactly. It was just like, Oh, this is a cool world that they put into this movie.
00:09:11:16 - 00:09:33:23
Cullen
Yeah, yeah. And I remember specifically the feeling of, like, not really being able to explain it. Like, I was definitely too young to put it into words. But this idea that I was finished watching the movie, the TV was off, and yet it still affected me like I still didn't want to look out the window at night out of fear that my neighbor was going to be burying their wife.
00:09:34:04 - 00:09:57:10
Cullen
And it was like, Why is that happening? Why? You know? So it was this, you know, again, I couldn't really explain to myself. I didn't understand the idea of like, you know, a subconscious imprint on me or something then. But yeah, definitely, like, it was only it stuck with me. And the second that I can think of was really Jaws, which was like, I have this visceral, visceral memory of And that was, you know, I would say that Jaws for a kid was is scarier than Rear Window to me.
00:09:57:15 - 00:10:00:00
Cullen
And I remember being frightened.
00:10:00:03 - 00:10:01:14
Clark
It is so much more visceral.
00:10:01:14 - 00:10:11:17
Cullen
Yeah, exactly. And bloody and, you know, more violent. And I remember I remember being too scared to get out of bed at night to even go get water because I thought that I was going to, like, slip into the ocean and that like my dad was going.
00:10:11:17 - 00:10:28:21
Clark
Now can I ask how? Because so you and I are kind of a generation apart. Yeah. You know, I remember watching Jaws as a kid, but of course, Jaws, you know, came out. When did it come out? You know, that 75, 75. So so okay. So it came out a year before I was born. So, you know, I probably saw it in the very early eighties.
00:10:28:21 - 00:10:40:17
Clark
Right. So it was still a relatively fresh film. I mean, I remember having Jaws poster on my wall, a huge movie, you know. But for you, that movie was old by the time you saw it. But yeah, but.
00:10:40:17 - 00:10:58:12
Cullen
I mean, again, it was the same thing. So I would have been six or seven. It was actually I neighbor one of my friends that lived on my street. His dad had it and like showed me at remember my mom being quite angry that, that, that we were seeing this like scary, violent movie. Yeah. But it was, Yeah.
00:10:58:12 - 00:11:18:09
Cullen
So I was probably five, six or seven. I probably six or seven. And you know I again I just remember this again that, this like intense feeling of, of why am I afraid to get out of bed and like slip into water if the movie star. Yeah. And so it really like that initially kind of sparked this thing about like scaring people for me.
00:11:18:12 - 00:11:29:03
Cullen
But I still didn't know how movies were made. It was still then something that was very much like a it was like reading a book. Like, I don't really think when you're young about like the person that wrote it, you just kind of you're just assume that it's.
00:11:29:03 - 00:11:30:07
Clark
Absorbed in the story.
00:11:30:12 - 00:11:51:00
Cullen
Or you think it's real like or, you know, you think that this is a real, real event and that you're just watching kind of real life. But I remember the movie that I think transformed those things from being just things that affected me. To me, making films was around the same time. I was probably, again, maybe a year after I saw Jaws.
00:11:51:02 - 00:12:09:23
Cullen
I was really eight years old and I saw Jurassic Park and it was the first time that I had access to the behind the scenes of a movie and so I watched Jurassic Park and then finished it and then immediately watched all of the making of and then I watched the making of again, and I probably watched the making of more than actually watched the movie.
00:12:09:23 - 00:12:29:02
Cullen
I probably watched the behind the scenes of Jurassic Park like 18 times and watched the movie maybe five times. Not now. Of course, I've seen it much more than that. But but when I was a kid, like, I was always watching the behind the scenes. And I remember specifically the moment when, you know, that big T-Rex breakout, seeing the rain and seeing them having to pat down the T-Rex.
00:12:29:02 - 00:12:47:10
Cullen
And I was like, This is so cool that that's a machine. And I was really into Lego as a kid. And so what I started doing was basically doing that on small scales, like I'd build a Lego T-Rex and I'd see, you know, I kind of understood, weirdly enough from an early age that it was like, if I need the foot to come down in the camera, I don't need the whole T-Rex.
00:12:47:10 - 00:13:03:12
Cullen
I just need to build a big foot because it's fake, you know, it's it's movie making. So I build a foot and I can have the foot come in and I don't have to worry about the rest of the T-Rex. And so that was when I started really making movies was pretty much stop motion Lego movies. And Star Wars, of course, too.
00:13:03:12 - 00:13:05:08
Cullen
I mean, every kid, you know, see, Star Wars is.
00:13:05:08 - 00:13:05:15
Clark
Yeah.
00:13:05:18 - 00:13:28:14
Cullen
A young child and kind of falls in love with it. And so there was very much that was what's funny, too, is that I grew up when the prequels were coming out, you know, I was born in 98, so right. I was growing up literally as the prequels came out and all my friends really like the prequels, but I was always in love with the originals and the reason that I was always in love with the originals and didn't really care for the prequels even though I was seeing them in theaters and they were coming out as I was.
00:13:28:14 - 00:13:45:00
Cullen
You know, growing up was because I, I had there was no, like really interesting behind the scenes stuff, you know, I didn't like watching the Star Wars, too, behind that, like Attack of the Clones behind the scenes, because it was all primarily computer stuff, and I can't do that.
00:13:45:05 - 00:13:47:00
Clark
So I'll just the this for.
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Cullen
Empire.
00:13:47:10 - 00:13:48:12
Clark
Strikes. So this is interesting.
00:13:48:12 - 00:13:50:11
Cullen
I can go outside I know and you know.
00:13:50:15 - 00:14:11:23
Clark
Yeah I think you've like touched on something that's like really interesting to me as because it's a big difference in how you and I were exposed to to cinema in the beginning of our lives. And it's curious, I want to explore this. So, you know, when I was a kid that was pre DVD and obviously VHS tapes did not have special features.
00:14:12:11 - 00:14:34:06
Clark
There were, you know, so my exposure to Epic, you know, electronic press kids or beats behind the scenes stuff or making of I mean was extremely limited. I mean I don't know that I was exposed to any frankly. I mean, you know, maybe at most like, you know, a promo on TV maybe. So I didn't have any access to that.
00:14:35:01 - 00:14:54:16
Clark
And it's interesting that that was a that was an important part of your kind of moving from, okay, there's like this thing that's that's magic that's happening on the screen and it's affecting me emotionally where you were like, Oh, wait, but people make this. I can see this. This is there's like an art here. There's a craft here, and people do this and I can do it, too.
00:14:54:22 - 00:15:13:04
Clark
And it sounds like what you're saying is that those behind the scenes featurettes were an important part of your kind of realization of, Hey, I could do this. Like, this is just people doing stuff, making, you know, make it cool, you know, and you started working on your Legos. I feel like for me, I didn't even, you know, especially when you're young, you don't understand.
00:15:13:04 - 00:15:40:14
Clark
There's a director, there's a cinematographer, there's you know, mostly it's just you just see what's on screen, right? So you're just looking at what's on screen. And so usually it's the actors that are most prominent to us, like, okay, those are the people who are making a movie because that's the people that you see. So that was important to me as I kind of share because that's that's where I first kind of started moving into when I was pursuing a career in filmmaking, was acting right.
00:15:40:14 - 00:15:55:05
Clark
But I could say that, you know, it was really Spielberg and his extraordinary just popularity amongst lay people. I mean, everybody, you know, Spielberg for me was the first person that I recognized to be a director.
00:15:55:06 - 00:15:56:19
Cullen
He's like the Mozart of movies.
00:15:56:20 - 00:15:58:00
Clark
It was just like that.
00:15:58:01 - 00:16:01:01
Cullen
Like you could ask anybody anywhere. Right? And if they know him.
00:16:01:03 - 00:16:24:20
Clark
And they know if you don't even care about classical music, do you like Mozart or Beethoven? It's like everybody in the world knows who Mozart and Beethoven is, even if they you know. But you're right. I mean, name a film director and likely, you know, nobody knows anything about film. There's a Spielberg. So that was, you know, when I was a kid, when he was really at that really coming into the height of his, you know, popularity and success with Jaws and Close Encounters.
00:16:24:20 - 00:16:44:09
Clark
And it was huge. I mean, I remember seeing E.T. in the theater. I probably saw it myself five times, you know, Indiana Jones flicks. So that was the first time. And just because he was just everywhere. Yeah. And and I was so moved by so many of his films. I mean, it was a huge impact on me. I remember you had a kid.
00:16:44:10 - 00:17:04:22
Clark
Yeah. Theater. And just being like, I mean, it was a profound experience for me as a kid. So that was the first kind of, Hey, wait, there's like, this kind of like a person who orchestrates this whole thing in some way. But it wasn't until, like a lot later that I really started to kind of understand that there's an industry and everything.
00:17:04:22 - 00:17:06:06
Clark
But yeah, so I think.
00:17:06:06 - 00:17:21:00
Cullen
It's interesting too, because very much like you growing up with that Spielberg thing, you know, arguably as I, as I was sort of saying before that, like I had, of course, the Star Wars prequels coming out when I was a kid, but they were, you know, not not really lauded, but what was.
00:17:21:00 - 00:17:23:04
Clark
Garbage other side of. They were and they were garbage.
00:17:23:04 - 00:17:34:02
Cullen
Exactly what was kind of on the other side of that, though, for me, which I would say was much more similar to kind of your experience growing up with Spielberg was Lord of the Rings, which came out right, Right when I was in my youth.
00:17:34:09 - 00:17:35:03
Clark
Got him old.
00:17:35:03 - 00:17:45:17
Cullen
And that was, you know, but again, that was another one of those things that had like, you know, I've heard people describe the behind the scenes for Lord of the Rings as basically film schools on their own.
00:17:45:18 - 00:17:47:08
Clark
Yeah. Oh, it's insane. I mean, like.
00:17:47:13 - 00:18:10:14
Cullen
For me too was I had I had again the the behind the scenes but I think what was so what is so different today especially with like people who, you know, maybe are growing up today and are really only watching movies from today is that there's no or at least there's a much more limited idea of like if I was eight years old right now watching The Avengers, I really wouldn't be able to look at that and go, I can do that.
00:18:10:19 - 00:18:25:13
Cullen
But when I was eight years old or when I was five years old watching Lord of the Rings and I saw that they were using a miniature and I was like, Hang on, I've got a cardboard box. I can make a small building and then put my camera beside it, and that's my miniature. I can do exactly what they did.
00:18:25:17 - 00:18:52:11
Clark
That's an interesting point, right? Because in some ways, so in some ways, you know, when I was a kid, it would it would just be like, you know, of course, all films were made using film. And so that was, of course, outside the range of any average person's appeal. It certainly was outside of my range, but it was like just the beginning of, you know, I remember being very young and my dad was kind of, you know, he worked in the for for JVC for a while.
00:18:52:11 - 00:19:13:18
Clark
And so he worked in the consumer electronics industry. And so we you know, we're early adapters to VCRs. We were early adapters to home video cameras. And so, you know, even, you know, I had access to VHS, VHS, C, eight millimeter, those things growing up, of course, you know, you'd try your best to make something look cinematic with those cameras.
00:19:13:18 - 00:19:16:18
Clark
And it was absolutely impossible. You know.
00:19:16:22 - 00:19:18:02
Cullen
There was a certain charm, though.
00:19:18:16 - 00:19:37:14
Clark
It's like charm to them. There is a weird charm, but it's like now, you know, it's like you you the cameras, you can are so accessible to technology and editing. You know, that was the other thing, trying to edit back then. So it's like in a way, it's like so much of the technology of filmmaking is except as is accessible to so much more.
00:19:37:19 - 00:19:59:23
Clark
You know, you can use a desktop computer and you have an extraordinarily powerful editing platform. You can go buy some really reasonably priced cameras that, if used well, can give you an extremely professional look. But yes, that but then like a film like Avengers or something like that, I mean, the technology they use there is just beyond, you know.
00:19:59:23 - 00:20:00:10
Clark
Well, and that's.
00:20:00:10 - 00:20:22:22
Cullen
The irony of it is that so I always describe, you know, when I teach. So I'm I'm 20, I'm almost 23. I'm turning 23 July. That's, you know, so I'm not really all that old. But even when I was a kid, having something like a phone in your pocket that has incredible quality camera editing software.
00:20:23:21 - 00:20:24:08
Clark
Oh yeah, that's.
00:20:24:08 - 00:20:44:16
Cullen
Writing software and stuff like that was unheard of, you know? Oh, yeah. It didn't come out until I was, you know, in my teens. So. So I, I always tell the kids today that I teach that it's like you have really no excuse to not, you know, every single person has a a phone. Most people have phones. You know, obviously there are some people who don't.
00:20:44:16 - 00:20:56:04
Cullen
But but most people have phones with really great cameras, like even five year old phones have really great cameras. They have access to editing apps. You can literally make an entire movie. And it doesn't have to be, you know, high art. But you can.
00:20:56:07 - 00:20:56:12
Clark
You know.
00:20:56:12 - 00:21:19:19
Cullen
As a kid make a whole movie on a cell phone, which is insane to me. And but I think that that's exactly what you kind of are hitting on there, which is that the irony, though, is that while it's so liberated and it's so accessible these days to make movies, the movies that are coming out, that are making a lot of money, that get, you know, the most attention are these, you know, $300 million huge.
00:21:19:22 - 00:21:20:16
Clark
You know, movies.
00:21:20:16 - 00:21:36:22
Cullen
That would be impossible to make with that. Whereas I think the difference was I think one of the reasons there was such a surge of like indie film in the nineties is because that was kind of the sweet spot of movies that were big, were still made on not hugely like exorbitant budgets.
00:21:36:22 - 00:21:38:11
Clark
Yeah, you know, there were mostly yeah.
00:21:38:11 - 00:21:40:09
Cullen
Were getting that were getting accolades and then.
00:21:40:22 - 00:21:46:09
Clark
There were still like the break and we're still in $2,030 million films being made and a lot of them Yeah.
00:21:46:10 - 00:21:58:16
Cullen
And and but at the same time you were getting again this this this kind of democratization of being able to make movies so you had people get VHS. Six millimeter cameras were becoming more widely available. Yeah.
00:21:59:03 - 00:22:02:04
Clark
So it was kind it was a wonderful hot spot.
00:22:02:05 - 00:22:05:10
Cullen
Nineties late eighties, nineties, early 2000 bit is exactly.
00:22:05:10 - 00:22:06:01
Clark
A great era.
00:22:06:01 - 00:22:16:05
Cullen
Sweet spot. Yeah. Like you could make a movie for very little money that still had commercial value, whereas now it's much more difficult. It's easier to make the movie but to get the commercial value.
00:22:16:13 - 00:22:39:10
Clark
So it's interesting that you mention that because this is the era where so it took me that long. So also, I mean, I grew up in the Midwest, I grew up in Missouri. You know, my my parents aren't particularly artistic and, you know, so I was not exposed. I didn't live in in an area in in a household where, you know, having any kind of artistic pursuit was really kind of seemed like any kind of reality.
00:22:39:10 - 00:23:01:17
Clark
I mean, you know, this is something they do in in L.A. and Hollywood that's, you know, might as well be on another planet to me, just I just had no I had no role models. There was no you know, I just the industry was just totally nonexistent. I mean, it was just completely not even a possibility. I didn't even it wasn't like I thought like, I want to make movies.
00:23:01:17 - 00:23:32:14
Clark
Darn it, I can't. It wasn't I didn't even get that far. It was. It was just like, this is I didn't even think about it because it was so, so far away. But when when we did get into the late eighties and early nineties and you had things like Kevin Smith and Clerks and we have Quentin Tarantino, Reservoir Dogs and we have this extraordinary explosion of amazing independent film that's when I really started like, Hey, this actually is something that I could do.
00:23:32:20 - 00:23:33:23
Clark
Yeah, this is what I mean.
00:23:33:23 - 00:23:51:04
Cullen
I think that it's funny that you are almost a, you know, evidence of, of what we're saying, which is that you had this democratization of, of media, of making media. You know, and I think that's really interesting because I so I similarly but not you know I grew up in Toronto which is a pretty big film city.
00:23:51:09 - 00:23:51:17
Clark
Yeah.
00:23:52:05 - 00:24:15:00
Cullen
But, you know, both my parents were in business. It wasn't you know, by no means was I growing up around filmmakers or actors or stuff like that. It was just more of like something that I got a passion for right. And I do I do think that's really interesting, though, that I sort of so I kind of grew up on the tail end of that democratization.
00:24:15:05 - 00:24:36:12
Cullen
You know, my even just, you know, I talked to kids today who aren't, you know, maybe the kids I teach or eight maybe I'd say like 7 to 10 years younger than me. Mm hmm. And talking to them about how when I was young and when I started my YouTube channel, YouTube was for short films like short films were the big thing on YouTube.
00:24:36:12 - 00:24:43:01
Cullen
And they would get millions of views and they'd be on the front page. Yeah, I don't know when. The last time I saw a short film on the front page of YouTube is. It's all.
00:24:43:01 - 00:24:44:12
Clark
Their videos, videos or.
00:24:44:16 - 00:24:45:12
Cullen
Video essays.
00:24:45:12 - 00:24:46:22
Clark
Video essays and or it's.
00:24:46:22 - 00:24:51:11
Cullen
Tech reviews or things like that, you know. Yeah, it's it's or it's just drama. Like it's just like weird.
00:24:51:19 - 00:24:55:16
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's definitely not like.
00:24:55:16 - 00:24:56:06
Cullen
That like bad.
00:24:56:07 - 00:24:57:13
Clark
Narrative. It's not. Yeah.
00:24:57:14 - 00:25:28:08
Cullen
Oh exactly. But back in the day there was and that's what's so weird to me is that it was like it was almost like there was this, this really sweet spot. I don't think that that's impossible nowadays, You know, I wouldn't be doing this if I thought it was impossible. But it's definitely interesting that how fast it kind of switched from, you know, and even just talking to YouTube specifically, where it was like it was this place to upload videos to to really it was it was it was like the perfect kind of distribution platform that came after this this this democratization, where now we can make movies.
00:25:28:08 - 00:25:36:06
Cullen
And still in the nineties, of course, it was difficult to get your movie distributed. There was no YouTube. There was really no Internet platforms like that. And then suddenly along comes YouTube.
00:25:36:13 - 00:25:43:16
Clark
I like Well, now I have both pieces. Yeah, exactly. I've got the equipment to make it and I've got a way to put it in front of eyeballs.
00:25:43:23 - 00:26:01:17
Cullen
And I don't know, I think that'll come back one day, but I don't. It's definitely not at its peak right now. It's definitely gone back down to a point where uploading your video to YouTube, unless you already have a pre-established audience or have some way to get it or the money to get it seen by a lot of people, it's kind of a waste of time.
00:26:01:20 - 00:26:24:00
Clark
So it's interesting to me, I, I want to go back to like the Spielberg influence a little bit because I think this is really interesting. You know, you and I are 20 years apart. And so, you know, he was, you know, the biggest the biggest name in the business. You know, when I was a kid with all of his early blockbusters, you know, it's still stand is probably the best films that he's ever made.
00:26:24:09 - 00:26:38:18
Clark
So it's interesting to me that 20 years later, you're just as inspired by him. I'm at I'm curious of what films were you know, what films was It was it is older films. What is? Well, yeah, it's like his recent films. Yeah, that's interesting.
00:26:39:03 - 00:26:52:06
Cullen
Yeah. Because so the films that he made when I was growing up weren't the ones that I watched, right? So it was that's like the, you know, I growing up it was like Minority Report and War of the Worlds and Munich were kind of the ones that were coming out. You know, as I was growing up.
00:26:52:06 - 00:26:54:18
Clark
So, okay, so still really big. But yeah.
00:26:54:18 - 00:27:14:09
Cullen
Still big, but not necessarily like I didn't see those until I was older, you know, a few interesting come out. So it wasn't one of those things where I was going to the theater and watching them. But no, it was it was for me, one of my again, one of the earliest memories I have of watching movies was my dad covering my eyes as I watched Temple of Doom when the heart was pulled out and things like that.
00:27:14:09 - 00:27:25:01
Cullen
It was definitely, again, this kind of almost passed on generational thing. Yeah. So, you know, as we talked about, even though neither of our parents were.
00:27:25:01 - 00:27:26:02
Clark
But they were fascists.
00:27:26:02 - 00:27:45:00
Cullen
In the film. Yeah, they but even like but pretty casual fans. And I think what's interesting is kind of how you talk about the idea that that Spielberg is so you know very much like you were talking kind of about the The Avengers thing where it's like it's you don't need to speak any language to understand those movies.
00:27:45:00 - 00:27:51:04
Cullen
Don't fall in love with them. Yeah, Spielberg is very much kind of like almost to me, an older version of that where.
00:27:51:05 - 00:27:51:18
Clark
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:51:18 - 00:28:01:17
Cullen
Because he's so well known, because he's so accessible by so many people, but he's not accessible because it's like a lowest common denominator thing. He's accessible because it's just made good movies that people liked.
00:28:02:00 - 00:28:02:06
Clark
Yeah.
00:28:02:16 - 00:28:10:04
Cullen
And so I think that that to me is, is really the reason that, that I think he's got such a multi-generational impact on people like that's what's.
00:28:10:14 - 00:28:36:08
Clark
I think is so those are films that you're that you're your father was watching so your dad would be watching like Indiana Jones or Jaws. And so you were exposed to those earlier films to your father because he was a fan of the older films, is what it's exactly. Yeah. So it's it would be like if I had kids, which I haven't, but if I had to, it's because I grew up on those films, I would probably be like watching them and, you know, my kid would be sitting next to me and then my kid would be like, thusly inspired.
00:28:36:08 - 00:28:57:10
Clark
So yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I think it is funny that and I think this happens a lot, right? I mean, you know, my dad loves loves movies, but yeah, I mean, as far as I know, he's never had any desire to ever, you know, be a filmmaker. I mean, you know, like, yeah, definitely. I don't there's never been even remotely a sign that that was ever something he's interested in.
00:28:57:14 - 00:29:29:01
Clark
But he definitely loves films. And, you know, so I that's I grew up watching so many films with my father and like, you know, spaghetti westerns on Sunday afternoons, you know, and like the, you know, whatever that local, you know, in St Louis it was kpler, I think a Channel 11. And they would play spaghetti westerns, you know, like every year cause we only had, you know, especially when I was young, I mean it was like if you didn't have cable and not many people did, although I was lucky enough to have cable on and off, you know, throughout my childhood, my parents would get it for a period of time.
00:29:29:01 - 00:29:46:16
Clark
And then maybe lose it. But so I did have HBO and I could watch a lot of movies there. But I mean, you know, it's like your options were really limited. You know, we were talking about how many options, how many things vie for your attention today back then? I mean, I remember when TV went off at 11 p.m. or midnight or whatever it was, you know, I remember having three channels.
00:29:47:00 - 00:30:06:08
Clark
So it was like you watched what was on. But it's interesting. Yeah, I mean, it, it so it's it's fun to me that it's kind of tied to that. It's like, you know, I would love film, I think, no matter what, but it's it's neat to me, though, that I have this connection to my father, to my parents sharing these moments with them.
00:30:06:16 - 00:30:12:15
Clark
And I think a lot of people who love film have probably had similar experiences, you know? Sounds like you did, too.
00:30:13:00 - 00:30:25:06
Cullen
Yeah. No, I so I mean, what I kind of actually want to talk about a little bit, too, is the like the moment that you or, you know, might not have been a moment, it might have been kind of.
00:30:25:06 - 00:30:26:02
Clark
A process.
00:30:26:09 - 00:30:32:08
Cullen
Thing, a process of like turning it from a hobby into a career and something.
00:30:32:08 - 00:30:32:21
Clark
Yeah, like.
00:30:32:21 - 00:30:34:06
Cullen
Viable to to do.
00:30:34:06 - 00:30:34:14
Clark
For.
00:30:35:10 - 00:30:35:19
Cullen
A living.
00:30:36:00 - 00:30:59:20
Clark
So that's a really good question. I mean, I think, you know, we and we might at some point want to talk about this in more episodes and from a perspective of kind of things that we've learned and you know, so there could be a lot there. But I mean, so for me, like I you know, I kind of alluded to this earlier, that it was the actors that I first felt an affinity for, because they were they were like what I was watching on camera.
00:31:00:02 - 00:31:26:02
Clark
So so, yes, there was this part kind of in the back of my mind that like, oh, there's people like Spielberg that that orchestrate these things. But what I kept being exposed to and fascinated by was actually it was the actors. And so that was my first kind of foray into it. I, I found myself being really like, just, you know, obsessed with this process of acting like, how do these people do that?
00:31:26:02 - 00:31:48:20
Clark
You know, because like your move emotionally by these performances, like they're so you there's an intimacy there, right? At least for me, I felt there was this intimacy there where, wow, they're like having such an impact on me emotionally. And I connected that to the actors mostly at that time. So. So yeah, I mean, it was a process of, you know, again, it was like growing up in Missouri.
00:31:48:20 - 00:31:57:09
Clark
I went to college and studied business. I mean, I took as many film classes as they had, but it was just film studies and there weren't a lot, you know, because.
00:31:57:09 - 00:31:58:19
Cullen
Yeah, nothing is like practical.
00:31:58:19 - 00:32:11:11
Clark
No, it's not what it at least as far as I know. Maybe they did, but it just was again, it was like, you can't this is not something you can make a living at. This is not something you can have a career it So I better go go study business because you're going to have to pay the bills whenever you graduate.
00:32:11:11 - 00:32:51:04
Clark
So again, it was it was just about the pragmatic. I just didn't see it as a possibility. And but slowly it started. You know, I realized, first of all, how how much I hated business at the classes were boring. I didn't like it. And then, especially when I got into the real world, I was like, hit over the head with like, wow, I really don't like sitting in this office staring at a computer screen, you know, do like writing ad copy or, you know, discussing marketing budgets or whatever the heck I was doing it for, you know, And it was and I worked for great companies and I was treated very well, better than I
00:32:51:04 - 00:33:12:02
Clark
should have, frankly, because I got, you know, to pretty slowly, I got to slacking off quite a bit there. But because I did but I so it was almost like, wow, the pain of being in a career that I couldn't stand. MM. Really forced me to, to like, okay, hey, we got to stop here and look at you got a lot of life left in you.
00:33:12:15 - 00:33:32:23
Clark
This is miserable. What are we going to do with ourselves? And so it was so it was a lot of that. It was the pain of doing something that I really was not a good fit for me. And and then still, you know, like my love for film growing and, you know, and literature, I mean, not just film, but theater and literature, just story.
00:33:33:05 - 00:33:57:10
Clark
My love for story never left, kept growing bigger and bigger. And so basically after college, I, I was like, that was in the back of my mind. But I hadn't admitted it to myself yet. I was like, I want to live in California. I want to pursue acting. But because nobody around me was a role model for that, I was worried to to externalize that idea.
00:33:58:06 - 00:34:15:01
Clark
And so I never talked about it or or did anything externally, really. But it started to kind of make changes in my life. And so I didn't move to California right away, but I moved to Colorado and in my mind I was like, okay, I'm halfway there now, you know, from Saint Louis to Colorado. I'm like, That's closer.
00:34:15:01 - 00:34:43:15
Clark
Okay. And once I was in Colorado, I started studying acting at the Denver Center for Performing Arts. So Michael Well, you know, it's not on camera, but hey, it's like I can, you know, after after my 9 to 5, I can take classes here and I can, you know, and so here I am. I mean, at that point, I was probably 25 years old or so, give or take, you know, And I'm taking my first acting classes ever at stage acting and.
00:34:43:15 - 00:35:03:14
Clark
I it was it was something I was horrible at. I didn't know what the heck I was doing, or at least I felt like, you know, I was I mean, you know, I'm new at it, you know? So it's it was like super or like, it's totally interesting, totally scary meeting awesome people. It was extremely fun. Is also like, nerve wracking to me.
00:35:03:14 - 00:35:21:20
Clark
It was like even even like the exercises that we would do in class would make me like, just overwhelmed with anxiety, you know? But so it was like it wasn't easy to me. It was it didn't like come naturally. It was like something that was really a challenge for me, but it was something I really enjoyed. So I pursued that end of it.
00:35:22:05 - 00:35:41:03
Clark
It was really, you know, for the longest time I was like, I want to be an actor. And then I, you know, kind of the more classes I took and then I started, you know, I auditioned for some theater, some plays in out there in Colorado, and then I was actually cast in them. And then, you know, so I'm on stage in front of a paying audience and, you know, yes, it's small.
00:35:41:03 - 00:36:07:09
Clark
It's little regional theater, little community theater. But hey, it's paying audience. And I've got a paying gig and I'm acting and I'm acting, you know, hey, this is awesome. Small roles then that worked into like larger roles, lead roles than I even worked into, you know, doing some some writing and producing. And then I had an opportunity. So I kind of built like this whole theater world around me.
00:36:07:09 - 00:36:35:06
Clark
So I had, you know, most of my friends were theater were friends from the theater world. And so, yeah, And then it came to a head for me with my my day job came to head where I was so unhappy with that I got fired and like, now laid off. I got fired because combination of just like, my attitude sucked and, you know, they didn't want to put up with me anymore.
00:36:35:23 - 00:36:59:22
Clark
At the time, of course, I didn't frame it that way. I was like, It's my boss's fault. But, you know, looking back, it's pretty clear I was a turd. So. So then I was like, okay, well, I'm moving to California now. So I got to California and this is where I really okay, I solidified my my plan. I'm going to I'm going to work this day job kind of thing that's still working the same type of career, but just for a different company in California is like, okay, I'm here.
00:37:00:04 - 00:37:13:05
Clark
I'm going to work here for a couple of years. I'm going to save up my my war chest so that I can move to L.A. to pursue acting and, you know, boom. Then it was like, I've got a plan. I'm doing it. It's a done deal. And that's what I did. I worked for a few years for this company.
00:37:13:05 - 00:37:34:21
Clark
I saved up as much money as I could, and then I went on out to L.A. and then pursued acting with a vengeance. Now, at this point in time, I'm 30 years old and I have no experience. And here I am in L.A., I have no experience. I, I mean, I have theater experience. I have theater training of acting training, but I have no on camera experience.
00:37:34:21 - 00:37:56:20
Clark
I've got no resume that matters to them. So that's a tough situation to be in, to be 30 years old, because everybody else in that audition room has a heck of a most of them people have a heck of a resume. So you're the only guy that doesn't have much of a resume there at 30. So that's where I was like, okay, look, if I if I want to be able to work in film that I'm going to have to make my own work.
00:37:56:20 - 00:38:19:17
Clark
I'm going to have to take on some other positions. So that's where I really started getting into more producing, more writing, directing, I mean, whatever had to be done, You know, I if I want to do this, I'm going to have to make my own work. And so that's really where I started experience. You know, I started getting experience in all these other different facets of filmmaking.
00:38:19:17 - 00:38:27:16
Clark
It's like, if I'm going to do this in any capacity, then I'm going to have to make my own work. And so that's that's how kind of led to me being here Now.
00:38:28:07 - 00:38:35:03
Cullen
That's so it's it's funny because we almost have similar but really opposite sides of.
00:38:35:07 - 00:38:36:19
Clark
Like yeah what's yes what about.
00:38:36:20 - 00:39:03:20
Cullen
So for me I was always into the filmmaking like I was, you know, ever since I started making, as I said earlier, those stop motion movies, I wanted to be a director. That was that was my goal. I wouldn't, you know, going through elementary school was making movies and directing friends and stuff like that on on the old, like VHS cameras and stuff that we had the tape and but I can't I honestly don't really remember how, but I just somehow kind of got into acting when I was young.
00:39:04:08 - 00:39:11:16
Cullen
I never wanted to be an actor, but I remember I did. You know, The Second City is a big theater company here in Toronto.
00:39:11:22 - 00:39:12:07
Clark
So there's.
00:39:12:10 - 00:39:13:20
Cullen
Chicago locations, all that.
00:39:13:23 - 00:39:14:11
Clark
Huge.
00:39:14:18 - 00:39:26:04
Cullen
Huge people have been there. And so I did improv at Second City and then I did in private, another improv theater called Bad Dog Theater, and this was when I was probably in grade four.
00:39:26:08 - 00:39:27:21
Clark
Oh, wow. But you're young.
00:39:28:07 - 00:39:45:10
Cullen
Doing it really, You know, not to toot my own horn, but I remember, you know, being so fascinated with it and really liking it so much that I was I would be invited the adult shows. So like, even though I was a student, I would they would take kind of like the two students who seem to be like, you know, kind of getting it and going along.
00:39:45:18 - 00:39:47:11
Cullen
Yes. And being the best, I guess.
00:39:48:06 - 00:39:50:05
Clark
And. Right. Oh, yeah. I remember they would.
00:39:50:05 - 00:40:13:14
Cullen
Say, you know, do you want to come to perform in one of the on one of our like performance nights in with all the adult cast and in front of, you know, a real audience. Yeah. And so I started doing that stuff and it was, it was a lot of fun. And then I you know, but again, all through that time, I still like, I liked acting, but it was never like I never wanted to to make a career out of it.
00:40:13:14 - 00:40:36:21
Cullen
It was more just something that I enjoyed doing. And I figured if anything, it's just a helpful skill to learn if I want to be a director, to learn acting. And so I wound up going to an arts high school here in the Greater Toronto area, and I went there for drama. They didn't have a film program. There was another arts high school further away from me that had a film program, but it also had a worse reputation.
00:40:36:21 - 00:41:03:00
Cullen
So I went for this drama program. So it was basically doing, you know, really intensive theater every single day for four years straight, which was great. You know, that was like I, you know, the professionals that I got to work with and stuff and the, you know, we were our it was honestly it's quite incredible. Like the school musicals and school plays had like budgets of like $70,000 and stuff like that.
00:41:03:00 - 00:41:03:12
Clark
Wow.
00:41:03:17 - 00:41:20:14
Cullen
And so we had so you really got this experience, this full theater experience of like when I was and I also got a lot of behind the scenes. So what my first two years there, I primarily worked on the tech crew. I was kind of the sound operator for mics and operated the soundboard. And then I started getting into doing stuff on stage, in the musicals, in the plays.
00:41:21:08 - 00:41:37:03
Cullen
But you really got like, you know, I got the experience of climbing up to the catwalks and adjusting lights. I got the experience of running light boards, I got the experience of writing professional sound boards and using professional mics. I got the experience of being like sitting in the makeup chair, performing in front of an audience of a thousand.
00:41:37:04 - 00:41:42:15
Clark
Such a good experience, isn't it? I mean, I really cherish my my theater experience. Yeah, no. And it was really do.
00:41:42:15 - 00:41:51:02
Cullen
And if you want to talk about you know, even just that a whole problem solving thing like amount of problem solving you got to do when someone messes up in front of an audience this huge.
00:41:51:19 - 00:42:14:20
Clark
And I know that from every there is like there is nothing more nerve. Right. Okay. So it's funny, when I was an actor, I thought there would be nothing more nerve wracking than than, you know, when I'm waiting in the wings and I'm about to go out and, you know, all these things are flashing, you know, it's like at the time I didn't have a repeatable, solid process and acting process that worked for me.
00:42:14:20 - 00:42:31:12
Clark
I was still very much in, you know, trying to piece that together through my experience and study. So it was a really nerve wracking experience to me. And I didn't have great ways to handle that. Now. Then when I went out on stage, I was usually okay, but I thought that that nothing could be more nerve wracking than that.
00:42:31:12 - 00:42:40:06
Clark
I was wrong the first time I directed it. Ensemble Cast Scene. The director on opening night, sitting in the front row watching your actors, you.
00:42:40:06 - 00:42:41:02
Cullen
Have no control.
00:42:41:03 - 00:42:44:18
Clark
And that was more nerve wracking, I.
00:42:44:18 - 00:43:02:01
Cullen
Can imagine. And what's what's so interesting to me about that too, was that I didn't like it wasn't a situation where even though there was no film program at this school, I, you know, I sort of like stopped doing film for four years and then got back into it when I graduated. And it was very much I sort of learned that I had to make my own opportunities.
00:43:02:15 - 00:43:24:18
Cullen
So there was like a media class where you did like two weeks of filmmaking, but the teacher that I had for that class was he grew up in Southern California and he'd done a lot of work. He worked on things with Who's Bill and Kill Bill, what's his name? Carradine Karate. David Carradine. He like he'd worked on things like, you know, kind of B-movies with David Carradine and stuff.
00:43:25:00 - 00:43:37:22
Cullen
Yeah. So he was really into movies, like he loved movies. And he would always kind of joke about the fact that it was like if, if he if it was up to him, this media course would just be filmmaking. It wouldn't be you wouldn't have to do the Photoshop. You wouldn't, you know.
00:43:38:05 - 00:43:38:13
Clark
Yeah.
00:43:38:21 - 00:44:02:13
Cullen
So but he, I remember was a huge influence on me and a good friend of mine who I've still good friends with. And he was working on this feature that I'm working on now with me where it was like we were doing this this two week film project in this media class. And he like, gave us the whole studio and like brought in smoke machines and lights for us because he saw how much, how interested we were in doing it.
00:44:02:13 - 00:44:09:07
Cullen
So like all the other groups would just kind of go outside and film things on, on their phones. But we were like doing like soundstages and building.
00:44:09:07 - 00:44:10:13
Clark
Props and stuff. And it was this.
00:44:10:13 - 00:44:30:16
Cullen
Tiny two week project. But that was sort of really when I started to get involved in film at the school. And one of the things that my school always did every year was this holiday video. And so it was like this big kind of like jokey sketch comedy thing where it was like all the teachers would do a sketch, all the departments would do a sketch, and then it would be edited together.
00:44:30:16 - 00:44:42:00
Cullen
And then at the beginning of the holiday assembly, which was like right before we went on winter break, they would show this video and they were usually like 10 minutes long. It was really stupid, not very well-made, like it was usually just someone with, again, their phone kind of filming.
00:44:42:00 - 00:44:42:09
Clark
These right.
00:44:42:12 - 00:44:44:08
Cullen
Dumb sketches. But it was, it was a fun thing.
00:44:44:08 - 00:44:44:18
Clark
Yeah.
00:44:44:21 - 00:45:03:20
Cullen
And then the year so when I was in grade ten, this guy Sam Calder, who also went to high school, who was like this big Instagram YouTube star, and I was like a million subscribers. He does. He basically invented like the travel video on YouTube, which is kind of neat. But so I went to high school with him and he did this music.
00:45:03:20 - 00:45:06:03
Cullen
He turned it into a music video, which was what does the fox.
00:45:06:14 - 00:45:07:19
Clark
And oh AM.
00:45:07:19 - 00:45:28:12
Cullen
And he did this like it was like this thing. He had like jibs and dollies and sliders and like full lighting setups and smoke machines. And it was like it really kind of changed the whole holiday video thing. It made it this bigger thing. And so then I was asked to do it the next year because he'd graduated and it wasn't very good.
00:45:28:12 - 00:45:44:21
Cullen
My first one, very good. It was a music video. And so we just kind of did this. Me and my friend did it. And the year after that, when I was in grade 12, I sort of talked to the teacher that was kind of the organizer of it and sort of said, Hey, like, I know this sounds weird, but we've got a pretty good working relationship.
00:45:45:15 - 00:46:03:23
Cullen
Can I have complete creative control on this? Like, can I do whatever I want? And she sort of said, Yeah, as long as it's appropriate, go ahead. And so we were like, Everyone's expecting a music video. Let's advertises that as music video. Let's tell everyone it's a music video, but let's do this like half an hour zenith of movie parodies.
00:46:04:04 - 00:46:25:09
Cullen
Hmm. And so we did this like it was this huge production. It was the first time that I'd ever gotten the experience of, like, having to schedule things, having to work with huge casts of, like multiple teachers, not just doing, like, silly sketches, but recreating scenes from Jurassic Park or Star Wars or Indiana Jones or The Godfather or whatever, Sunset Boulevard.
00:46:26:00 - 00:46:26:23
Clark
And Nice.
00:46:27:03 - 00:46:34:01
Cullen
It was like so and it also taught me so much because I was parodying these big movies. So I was like going in and studying these.
00:46:34:02 - 00:46:36:03
Clark
Scenes shot, recreate. Yeah, how.
00:46:36:03 - 00:46:46:22
Cullen
Can I, how do I like this shot? How do I move the camera? I built dollies, I built jibs, I built things like that so we could really, like, recreate all of the camera effects and all the camera movements and stuff.
00:46:47:01 - 00:46:47:11
Clark
Yeah.
00:46:47:11 - 00:47:16:22
Cullen
And it was it was like I still think to me it's like probably one of the happiest moments of my life was sitting in the audience watching that on a big screen and just having people like, in like applause and laughter and stuff like that. And it was it was this really, you know, even though I'd been making movies for so long before that, that was kind of the moment when I was sitting there and I sort of went, this is what it feels like to kind of have it be a B scene, but also have a production go well and have an end result and have this.
00:47:16:22 - 00:47:35:21
Clark
Yeah, you know, it's a powerful experience. I mean, there's a couple exactly interesting things that you mentioned. I mean, one that you mentioned that it was so it was a it was such a great experience, you know, parodying or, you know, recreating these all these different scenes from these famous films was an important part of your learning process.
00:47:36:08 - 00:47:55:18
Clark
And I think it is for everybody. And, you know, it's and I think it's actually it's a great way to learn. And I think, you know, different people kind of absorb different levels of but it's like kind of what you're doing when you're really actively watching a film. You're absorbing these all these shots, you're absorbing this, all the techniques and the grammar of film and storytelling.
00:47:55:18 - 00:48:11:01
Clark
And it's interesting that you did that where you were basically, okay, we're going to create a parody of these things. And so I've got to, you know, the better I can recreate these these scenes, the you know, the better the parody is going to be, right? Because we get it. So that's it's a really wonderful tool to use.
00:48:11:01 - 00:48:21:13
Clark
And I've done some of that as well in the past for some of my short films and things. And they are really good learning experiences. So interesting. Yeah, that you had that. And it's fun, you know? It's fun. Yeah.
00:48:21:13 - 00:48:35:10
Cullen
And it just it just I think it teaches you it's one of the things that I always do again with my students is like shot recreation. Like I'll put a shot on the TV screen in the studio and sort of say, okay, split into two groups. I want this lit correctly. I want it at this proper focal length.
00:48:35:10 - 00:48:47:18
Cullen
I want the framing to be. And so what it allows them to do is kind of go like, Hey, if I was filming a close up, I'm just going to stick the camera right in front of the person on an 18 millimeter lens and that's it. Whereas then they start to think about like, okay, how does that change?
00:48:47:18 - 00:49:13:11
Cullen
If I go to a 55 millimeter and I like this differently? And that was the same thing for me when I was doing these scenes was it's kind of like I'm no longer thinking about what I would do. I'm learning what the experts would do, and then I can apply that later to what I would do. And so it was really it was one of those very useful, I think prepared me also just on a production level of like having to schedule all these things and, you know, work with all these actors.
00:49:13:11 - 00:49:34:17
Cullen
Prepared me immensely for a career in film because I had never had that experience before. I'd only ever worked with two or three friends who were on like a five minute movie. Whereas working on this half an hour thing where I had different shoot days, I had locations, I had to contact the cast basically, who are, of course, all the teachers at the school, but some of them weren't very keen on doing it.
00:49:35:00 - 00:49:51:00
Cullen
And so I had to kind of negotiate with them and kind of be like, We'll get this done as soon as possible. You show up now, will get you know, will be set up before you come. You just have to come sit in that chair, do a line and then you're done. And it was this really great experience in terms of the the business side of film and.
00:49:51:00 - 00:50:13:13
Clark
Not just the taste of it. Well, yeah, exactly. It sounds like something else important happened to you there. Was that you? It was. Was that the first time that you had ever sat in an audience or with an audience watching something or react to your work? And that was probably maybe the most is going to guess that was at least tired, if not the most important aspect of kind of the impact that that had on you.
00:50:13:17 - 00:50:16:04
Clark
Yeah. And your desire to want to move forward because that's huge.
00:50:16:04 - 00:50:18:17
Cullen
That's I was terrified to I sat the bot back.
00:50:18:17 - 00:50:19:22
Clark
I couldn't Yeah I.
00:50:19:22 - 00:50:21:11
Cullen
Couldn't and I still do this whenever I want.
00:50:21:12 - 00:50:21:23
Clark
Oh yeah that.
00:50:21:23 - 00:50:39:14
Cullen
I've made, I couldn't bear to think of sitting like in the middle of the audience and having someone behind me watching something that I've made while staring at the back of my head. So I sat at the back of the audience. I was like terrified. And but it just it's still it's one of those things that's so bizarre.
00:50:39:15 - 00:50:44:16
Cullen
So Rush, where it's like you're terrified, but it also it's like a roller coaster. It feels so good, even though you're scared.
00:50:45:00 - 00:51:05:04
Clark
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's yeah, it's extremely interesting. I mean, I think yeah, for all of us. I remember some of the most significant and important moments that kind of inspired me and shaped me were, were more in the theater world. But the same thing of, you know, working hard to put together a play directed ensemble.
00:51:05:13 - 00:51:27:20
Clark
I mean, just all the work that goes into that and, and then get to watch a paying audience enjoy it is truly one of the most extraordinary experiences I've ever had. And it's also quite wonderful to be on that stage and doing the same thing and have an audience enjoy. It is really a truly wonderful experience and I mean, it propels most of us, I'm sure, to, to do what we do.
00:51:27:20 - 00:51:50:09
Clark
I, you know, I want to talk about here at the end of as we've not we've kind of not brought this factor into it. But obviously, this is a podcast about Werner Herzog and his very kind of philosophy film and his filmography. I'm curious, you know, your story. How did you run into Herzog, his work and and what obviously it had an impact on you.
00:51:50:09 - 00:52:00:00
Clark
So I'm curious about, you know, what impact did he have on your work and what do you take away from his work and what inspires you about his work?
00:52:00:00 - 00:52:10:11
Cullen
It's it's funny. So I the first experience I ever had with Herzog was my grandmother bought me Grizzly Man for like my birthday when I was a kid, just randomly. I don't think that she knew what.
00:52:10:11 - 00:52:18:22
Clark
It was, just randomly, just like it was in like the DVD bin. And she's like, Oh, it's a bear on the cover. Okay, great. This will be great for kids. Exactly.
00:52:18:22 - 00:52:22:05
Cullen
And so I that was that was my first my first memory of Herzog.
00:52:22:11 - 00:52:22:21
Clark
Okay.
00:52:23:03 - 00:52:26:23
Cullen
And then I'd seen you know, I'd seen his famous ones. I'd seen Nosferatu.
00:52:27:12 - 00:52:29:08
Clark
So where did you see those films? Because even.
00:52:29:08 - 00:52:30:23
Cullen
When I was probably in high school about.
00:52:31:05 - 00:52:35:07
Clark
Now, did you see these as part of class? Did your father. I just you to then you know I.
00:52:36:00 - 00:52:49:06
Cullen
I think it was just a matter of kind of looking for more you know I'd seen so I'd seen a lot of like American cinema and blockbusters and all that. And so I think at that point I was just kind of looking for more, you know, something different and I was just like.
00:52:49:06 - 00:52:49:14
Clark
What's.
00:52:49:23 - 00:52:54:01
Cullen
Who, you know, looking for online lists of like, who are the most interesting.
00:52:54:01 - 00:52:55:02
Clark
Characters and who was.
00:52:55:02 - 00:53:16:21
Cullen
Usually on there. So I would start watching those when I was around in high school. But it really wasn't like I would honestly say that it wasn't. I didn't start learning a lot about Herzog until the master class. Yeah, until I the master class, which of course, is where we met. Yeah. And that I remember when I signed up for it, I signed up before it was released.
00:53:16:21 - 00:53:33:00
Cullen
I like, got the ax early, you know, early thing when it was announced. So that was probably, I think like 90 days where I had bought it before the class started. And so I was like, okay, in these, you know, three months I have before the class starts, I'm just going to try and watch as much Herzog as I could.
00:53:33:05 - 00:53:34:00
Cullen
So that's kind of what I did.
00:53:34:08 - 00:53:34:23
Clark
Yeah, it really.
00:53:34:23 - 00:53:47:18
Cullen
Helped with the class. I made the class a lot more. I think, you know, just applicable to me because I could kind of relate to the things that he'd done before. And yeah, I mean, that was, that was kind of how I fell into it was really like.
00:53:47:18 - 00:53:48:11
Clark
That's interesting.
00:53:48:11 - 00:53:55:21
Cullen
Is a huge part of it. But yeah, but I'd seen his bigger stuff before then. But yeah, the master class really was kind of, I would say, solidified.
00:53:55:21 - 00:53:58:02
Clark
Mine and that was, that was like, what?
00:53:58:10 - 00:53:59:08
Cullen
How many? 16.
00:53:59:17 - 00:54:01:10
Clark
Okay. Wow. That's like mind blowing.
00:54:01:14 - 00:54:04:01
Cullen
Five years ago. Now, that's crazy, considering that.
00:54:04:12 - 00:54:18:03
Clark
It's so insane and that master class was such a tiny company back then. Yeah, I remember. They used to always three classes. Yeah, seriously. And I remember they would always like. Like they let us, like, lead weekly classes. But yeah, I.
00:54:18:03 - 00:54:19:00
Cullen
Posted a few of the.
00:54:19:01 - 00:54:27:09
Clark
Live classes and I remember that, like, they even flew us out there and I remember like going out to San Francisco and I.
00:54:27:09 - 00:54:28:13
Cullen
Remember a party every.
00:54:28:13 - 00:54:49:04
Clark
Couple of weeks. They would somebody would call and survey me. And, you know, of course, all of that's gone now. And there were much bigger company and yeah, but it was it was really fun. But yeah that's hard to believe it's been that long ago. I mean for me it's like, you know, I, I honestly cannot remember I can't remember what the first Herzog film was that I saw.
00:54:49:12 - 00:55:23:01
Clark
I, you know, I really don't have that recollection, but I know I remember, though, when I started to really dig deeper and and pay attention to his his philosophy of filmmaking and want to, you know, and go out and read some of his books and, you know, and like the you know, what's the Paul Cronin, I think is, you know, the there's a couple of books that Herzog on Herzog and then he kind of updated that for later, like, yeah, the title is Escaping Me now.
00:55:23:01 - 00:55:46:18
Clark
It's like something for the Perplexed. Just I can't remember. Anyway, Yeah, the guy for the perplexed. I think it's kind of perplexed. So but, but I think it was probably Cave of Forgotten Dreams for me. Again, it wasn't the first Herzog film that I had seen, but I remember I, we, I watched that at the recommendation of my acting teacher at the time.
00:55:46:20 - 00:55:47:20
Cullen
Did you see it in 3-D?
00:55:47:21 - 00:56:24:14
Clark
I saw it in 3-D. So the theater now, again, it's not the first time I knew who Herzog was. I've seen other films, but but at that point and it was like where I was at, I was like, extremely focused on studying, acting. I was spending upwards of 8 hours a day just working on my acting chops every day at home and really studied getting into a lot of other like studying story and story structure and meditating on story and just consuming as much as that as I could.
00:56:24:19 - 00:56:57:23
Clark
And of course, the Cave in Forgotten Dreams really spoke to me because it kind of speaks to this this how ancient storytelling is a part of the human condition. And and I was just I was just in this perfect place where that really had a huge impact on me. And so from there in his his overall kind of philosophy of filmmaking spoke to me so much because at that time I was really struggling to kind of fit myself into what I thought the industry wanted me to be.
00:56:58:04 - 00:57:28:02
Clark
Mm hmm. And it was a really painful place to be for me emotionally. And and it was such like a voice of authenticity and strength. And his career was such a an example of how you can do your thing and you don't have to fit into somebody else's mold. You definitely don't have to conform to this industry. You can do your own thing.
00:57:28:02 - 00:57:52:15
Clark
So it was this pursuit of this kind of transition of like, okay, I'm trying to make myself be this thing that a casting director is going to want to hire me for, to know This is about me pursuing my authentic voice. This is about me telling the stories that I want to tell. And it doesn't have anything to do with this whole machine that I had was really struggling to kind of work within or trying to break it or.
00:57:52:15 - 00:57:53:15
Cullen
Even just understand.
00:57:53:17 - 00:57:58:20
Clark
Or just, Yeah, all of the above. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really interesting. Yeah. And so I think yeah.
00:57:59:08 - 00:58:02:03
Cullen
So just as we, we kind of leave off here.
00:58:02:10 - 00:58:02:17
Clark
Yeah.
00:58:03:00 - 00:58:20:20
Cullen
I just sort of also want to say, you know, both of us I think, have some like really exciting projects coming up over the summer. And so you can probably expect that like maybe in the fall we might do kind of like a follow up episode of this. Yeah. Kind of talk about, you know, what we've been up to.
00:58:20:22 - 00:58:21:23
Clark
Totally because I mean, there's a.
00:58:21:23 - 00:58:23:12
Cullen
Lot of fun. I think that this, you know.
00:58:23:12 - 00:58:42:12
Clark
Absolutely it's like I've got a I've got a pretty fun shoot coming up here at the end of the month. And that's going to be exciting. I'll be working alongside a filmmaker that I've known for about 15 years. He actually hired me as an actor for the very first film, for the very first short film I ever shot when I moved out to California.
00:58:43:09 - 00:59:03:20
Clark
And we've remained friends. And he's going to he's got a crew out here in L.A. He's going to fly out and we're going to meet up and and shoot shoot a bunch of pickups for a feature film that he's getting ready to wrap up on that I did some assistant editing for, so that'll be exciting. I think I'm going to help direct some of these scenes, so that'll be cool.
00:59:03:20 - 00:59:10:02
Clark
But I know you've got you've been working on a feature that you're putting together. Yeah. So first.
00:59:10:02 - 00:59:10:08
Cullen
My.
00:59:10:08 - 00:59:11:16
Clark
Features, yeah.
00:59:11:18 - 00:59:15:00
Cullen
My first directorial debut, I expect to come out of it.
00:59:15:00 - 00:59:22:06
Clark
With Oh, wait, wait, wait. Let me clarify. Is this your first directorial debut or is this just directorial debut? This is my thing.
00:59:22:12 - 00:59:24:22
Cullen
It is. This is my first of many directorial debut.
00:59:24:22 - 00:59:27:14
Clark
Oh, can I just double checking? Because I'm like, you know, I just.
00:59:27:14 - 00:59:28:12
Cullen
Have a second and.
00:59:28:12 - 00:59:33:22
Clark
Then a third. Yeah, exactly. Was just make you know, it's because. Wait a minute, Is this your fourth debut? I just want to.
00:59:34:13 - 00:59:35:08
Cullen
Clarify that one.
00:59:35:13 - 00:59:46:04
Clark
But that'll be awesome. Well, we can. Yeah. Yeah. You'll have to keep us up to date as to how that goes. It looks really cool. It's exciting. So. Yeah, well, as covered. I mean, hey, I just got my first round of the Pfizer vaccine.
00:59:46:12 - 00:59:46:20
Cullen
Yeah.
00:59:47:03 - 01:00:09:07
Clark
Awesome, too. Yesterday. And here to report, aside from just a tiny, tiny, tiny little bit of soreness in the arm, absolutely no side effects whatsoever. I feel great. I am excited as, like, more and more people are vaccinated. I'm excited to actually get out, get back out into the world and actually get to shoot it. And making movies will be really exciting.
01:00:09:07 - 01:00:29:15
Clark
So yeah, New gear. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, on that note, Colin, thanks again for another wonderful episode. It was a blast. I'll look forward to our our next episode and we'll see. I don't know yet exactly what we're going to cover in that we might go back to cover another film in Herzog's filmography, or who knows, maybe we'll jump to some other discussion or topic.
01:00:29:15 - 01:00:37:15
Clark
But until then, everybody, thanks for hanging out and listening. We appreciate it. We'll catch you next time. See you guys.