Clark
Everybody. Welcome to yet another episode of the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. We're at episode 187. This is the second in a two parter. Last week we covered Little Deer Needs to Fly, and this week we're going to be covering Herzog's rescue, Dawn. As always, with me today to discuss this film is Mr. Cullen McPhatter.
00:00:34:01 - 00:00:36:06
Cullen
Hello. Welcome back to the Dieter Dengler duo.
00:00:36:08 - 00:00:41:08
Clark
They are nice. I know. I know. You've been working on that for days. And it's.
00:00:41:08 - 00:00:41:16
Cullen
A tongue.
00:00:41:16 - 00:01:02:20
Clark
Twister and it paid off. You know, those that hours of practice, it's like I remember as an actor, you know, we'd do all these, like, vocal exercises. You'd be, you know, it's like ground cow. I mean, if you, you know, if you ever want to see something funny, go into the dressing room like, you know, an hour before, like the opening of a play in, like a little community theater and watch actors.
00:01:02:20 - 00:01:03:15
Clark
But that ain't.
00:01:03:15 - 00:01:04:23
Cullen
The wall with your voice.
00:01:06:11 - 00:01:25:06
Clark
But yeah. Anyway, fantastic, man. Well, it's great to be here once again. And I'm excited to be covering this second film, covering the same subject matter, in effect as I think it's the only time Herzog's ever done this. I mean, he's certainly has a common narrative themes, common locations that we're going to talk about that a little bit here.
00:01:25:13 - 00:01:33:09
Clark
But to cover the exact same subject in two films, one a documentary and one and one a narrative I don't think Herzog's ever done before.
00:01:33:10 - 00:01:41:08
Cullen
And what's interesting is we speculated last week on our previous episode about, you know, okay, why did did Herzog do the documentary.
00:01:41:08 - 00:01:42:06
Clark
First in the plan?
00:01:42:07 - 00:01:52:16
Cullen
Then, you know, came up with the movie later or. But no, it was it was in the plan to do the narrative all along. And then he did the documentary is kind of an interim while he that's.
00:01:52:16 - 00:01:53:00
Clark
What it's.
00:01:53:00 - 00:01:53:22
Cullen
Running for the narrative.
00:01:53:22 - 00:01:55:14
Clark
So that's one thing that yeah.
00:01:55:15 - 00:01:58:12
Cullen
Seem to we seem to sort of be partially correct on that.
00:01:58:17 - 00:02:19:17
Clark
I think so, yeah, I think so. I mean, I don't know exactly, you know, did Herzog create that short film with the specific intent to get funding? I don't think that's the case because as I understand it. But but I think I think, yes, you know, when he was started to get into that documentary, I'm sure he had the idea, aha, this would actually make a great narrative film.
00:02:20:00 - 00:02:46:06
Clark
But as I understand it, you know, he was actually asked by German television and I don't know exactly which channel or entity, but he was asked by German television to create a couple episodes for a show. I think of Voyages into Hell. Basically, when the show was titled I've never seen it or Heard of it, so I don't know a ton about it, But they actually came to him and asked him if he would produce or direct some content for them.
00:02:46:12 - 00:03:07:04
Clark
And I think initially they wanted him to discuss the on set challenges and wackiness of Fitzcarraldo. And he said, and like a Super Herzog and way, you know, I don't want to circle my navel. You could do that in the Herzog accent. I'm never going to try to do that from you. So that's like always going to be your thing if you want to do that in his accent.
00:03:07:10 - 00:03:21:00
Clark
But he didn't want to circle his navel, as he put it, which I thought is a terrible way to kind of say, you know, look to to make something about my own work is kind of ridiculous. Although, of course, he does that a lot in other instances. But he's like, hey, but but, you know, I've got another idea.
00:03:21:00 - 00:03:38:18
Clark
I read this magazine article about this guy, Dieter Dengler. And I think that actually would make a really cool topic for the show. So that is what led him to meet Dieter and do Little Dieter needs to fly. And then I think from there he was like, This is so intriguing, I think and you know, I've talked about this.
00:03:38:18 - 00:03:44:07
Clark
He felt such a kinship to Dieter. Mm hmm. And I think this grew out of that. Yeah.
00:03:44:13 - 00:04:25:11
Cullen
And definitely, I mean, just on the basis of they're very similar in their you know, one of the things that I mentioned while we were having a conversation was that it's like their their intuitiveness is very similar, their instinct is very similar. Neither of them hesitate. They're both very no nonsense. They're both very, as you put it, kind of this this very masculine, you know, very traditional sense, I think sort of sense of like, you know, big muscle man on the beach, but rather this very, you know, that traditional sense of like kind of older, I guess, masculine ity that that Herzog seems to put into movies.
00:04:26:10 - 00:04:44:06
Cullen
And so I could see why they would get that. Yeah, totally. And I can see why they would get along so well. You know, even just the fact that they've both got these very foundational relationships with the jungle. Mm hmm. Of course. Of course. Herzog having made I think you said this was the seventh film that he made in the jungle.
00:04:44:09 - 00:04:44:16
Cullen
Right.
00:04:44:20 - 00:04:44:23
Clark
Right.
00:04:45:00 - 00:05:09:12
Cullen
And then, of course, Stangler having spent, you know, half a year, if not more, including the time traveled. Yeah, spending that in the in the jungles of Lao and, you know, in the Vietnam War. So, yeah, I think it's very interesting that these two, you know, it's as though you took the filmmaker out of Herzog and put the, you know, put a pilot, you know, a military pilot into that role.
00:05:09:12 - 00:05:16:05
Cullen
And it would be Herzog, in that instant instance, would be of a similar person. It's possible. Even more so.
00:05:16:06 - 00:05:30:11
Clark
Yeah, it's fun to think about. I mean, they're definitely I think, you know, you see a lot of similarities and some of them between Dieter and between Herzog. And I think you can see, you know, a lot of what probably Drew Herzog to Dieter. I mean, first and foremost, I mean, they're both German and both.
00:05:30:11 - 00:05:31:15
Cullen
Grew up during the war and.
00:05:31:17 - 00:05:54:00
Clark
Both grew up during the war. We talked about this. Yeah, some of these similarities when we were discussing little Dieter needs to Fly. But yeah, I mean, I think there's some surface level stuff, but there's also yeah, I mean, I get a sense, you know, just from what we know about Herzog and what little we know about Dieter that I can certainly see why Herzog would fight, you know, that they would both see each other as kind of kindred spirits.
00:05:54:08 - 00:06:21:07
Clark
Yeah. And it's interesting, you know, like, I just want to maybe kind of bounce some ideas back and forth here briefly, kind of about this idea of Herzog being a masculine director. And yes, I don't you know, and I don't even know, like, we kind of can brainstorm this here live on the podcast, because I you know, I thought about this kind of in passing before, but I haven't really hashed out a full fledged, you know, detailed kind of thought on this or analysis on this, if you will.
00:06:21:07 - 00:06:53:18
Clark
But, you know, I mean, I feel like it's such a part of his mythos and such a part of his, you know, his public persona. And it's also a big part of the films that he's made. And, you know, in previous films that we've watched, we've, you know, we I think I in doing some research for some of the other podcast episodes we've covered, you know, he talks about not having many female lead characters and because he draws so much kind of from his own experience and, you know, I think his viewpoint is often quite male and quite masculine.
00:06:53:18 - 00:07:03:14
Clark
And yeah, you know, I and that's interesting to me. And I think, you know, his mythos is like this, you know, it's like he does an interview and he gets shot in the thigh and he's like, oh, you know, it's it's sort of.
00:07:03:17 - 00:07:07:22
Cullen
Like he's like a no nonsense, like giant sized colossus.
00:07:08:21 - 00:07:09:13
Clark
Kind of. Right.
00:07:09:13 - 00:07:11:06
Cullen
That's right. It well, it does.
00:07:11:06 - 00:07:27:20
Clark
It does. But I mean, he's got that, you know, it's like he's he talks regularly about, you know, an attitude of complaint. You know, I don't you know, I don't want anywhere on my set any kind of attitude of complaining, you know, suck it up. And you're kind of said silent acceptance was it was a good phrase to kind of describe his mentality in it.
00:07:27:20 - 00:07:55:19
Clark
And it seems to be right. I mean, Herzog is a very physical actor. He's very much a risk taking actor, even I mean, director, even though he would say that he isn't. I mean, he certainly is not afraid of being extremely physical on location in jungles, amongst dangerous insects and animals and, you know, forging real white rapids and, you know, all these kind of things which are such kind of traditionally masculine.
00:07:56:18 - 00:08:13:06
Cullen
Which is very similar to what you said and very literal in terms of the context of this movie as well, that, you know, this movie was made for $10 million, which is really a lot of money, especially when you consider that it was shot in Thailand on location in terms of, you know, they were in a Hollywood actor.
00:08:13:06 - 00:08:34:15
Cullen
It wasn't a soundstage. It wasn't, you know, an hour outside of L.A.. Yeah. With Hollywood actors. And so that really, I think, puts it into almost a nice little box of what type of filmmaker Herzog is that even when he does have, you know, I think this is a large in terms of the movies that he's made, $10 million is definitely on the on on the larger end of things.
00:08:34:15 - 00:08:35:18
Clark
But yeah but.
00:08:35:18 - 00:08:57:05
Cullen
That's by no means for you know, you look at the budgets of something like Apocalypse Now, which of course shot on location, you look at the budgets of even something like Platoon or most like large war movies or even movies that just aren't necessarily large scale war movies, but rather just movies that shoot on location like this. And their budgets ballooned and they skyrocket, whereas Herzog kind of had to figure out how to do this for not a lot of money.
00:08:57:05 - 00:09:17:00
Cullen
And I think that that very much is part of it is this this no nonsense, no commitment. And it's not. And again, that the kind of the one of the ways that I described it was that it's not like he at least, you know, I don't know Herzog. But the way I see it is he's not the type of person that if an actor were to complain, he would get mad at them or he would scold them or anything like that.
00:09:17:00 - 00:09:24:15
Cullen
It would more be like this again, this silent sort of, you know, All right, he can complain, but that doesn't change anything.
00:09:25:02 - 00:09:45:18
Clark
Yeah. And I don't know. And I want to be I want to be clear, too. I just want to clarify. And you know that when we at least when I when I'm using the word that I kind of feel like he's a masculine director, I mean, it's it's not because I feel like the things that are associated with femininity are complaining or know nothing of, you know, are not being able to be physical on set or anything like that.
00:09:45:18 - 00:09:52:04
Clark
That's absolutely not what I'm meaning. And I really am using masculine in a very traditional.
00:09:52:10 - 00:09:53:06
Cullen
Yeah, exactly.
00:09:53:06 - 00:09:59:05
Clark
And including like unflattering ways, right? I mean, like kind of a socially kind of an older.
00:09:59:05 - 00:10:00:13
Cullen
Don't talk about your emotions.
00:10:00:13 - 00:10:02:01
Clark
Don't. Yes, that's going on.
00:10:02:06 - 00:10:10:07
Cullen
And I think that's that's kind of why I also try to specify that it's this very old style of masculinity. Yes. This almost like John Wayne.
00:10:10:21 - 00:10:12:00
Clark
Correct? That's what I'm.
00:10:12:00 - 00:10:17:11
Cullen
Not that's not to as you said, you know, diminish femininity, but rather.
00:10:17:11 - 00:10:18:23
Clark
Let me just that the ability to make this.
00:10:19:00 - 00:10:29:18
Cullen
Very much. Yeah. Just from a very, you know, analytical standpoint to say that Herzog is a you know, he exudes this masculinity, that type of masculinity in his films is very you know, it's an accurate.
00:10:30:00 - 00:10:55:08
Clark
Yeah I think statement it I think it's an appropriate way to analyze and again it's I'm looking at his subject matter. I'm looking at, you know, the characters that he is telling stories they're always almost always men, you know, the major characters in this film are almost always men. And they're, you know, they seem he has a very strong masculine perspective in his opinion, and in the way he tells stories and in the people who he chooses as characters to tell these stories through.
00:10:55:15 - 00:10:58:01
Clark
So that's certainly what I'm referencing.
00:10:58:16 - 00:11:13:21
Cullen
And this isn't, you know, of course, this isn't Rescue Dawn, but you look at just the history of his filmmaking and it's like you look at when we discussed this a little bit when we were doing Nosferatu, which is that the moment that Nosferatu starts to share his emotions and starts to get emotional, he dies. He's killed by them.
00:11:13:21 - 00:11:36:12
Cullen
Right? So there's definitely this, you know, not that I think that Herzog is would, you know, call someone a sissy for getting emotional. But rather, I think that it is very much, especially in this movie, an analysis of people who are in control of their emotions, people who are, you know, for lack of a better term, clear thinking, you know, very, very rational, very instinctual instinct, rational and stuff like that.
00:11:36:12 - 00:11:57:20
Cullen
And it kind of comes back and forth between this this battle of the minds, I guess you could say, between Gene and Dieter in the movie, which of course, we'll get into later about the historical accuracy of that. But in terms of the narrative, the film, there's very much this this kind of yin and yang of dieter being the person who comes in and is like, We're going to get out of here.
00:11:57:20 - 00:12:13:19
Cullen
We're going to escape. July 4th is the day we're doing it no later. And I said earlier to that, this is to me, that is almost like an impossibly unintentional metaphor for Herzog's filmmaking style in that he is very much no hesitation. Yeah, you know, urgency. No urgency. Exactly.
00:12:14:03 - 00:12:23:03
Clark
Well, I think that this film actually opened theatrically on the 4th of July, which is just I don't know if that's coincidental or you know, if this is kind of by design, because.
00:12:23:03 - 00:12:27:12
Cullen
It may I mean, perhaps he thought himself, too, at the time. It's like we're opening on the 4th of July.
00:12:27:12 - 00:12:29:00
Clark
So come hell or high water, we'll do.
00:12:29:00 - 00:12:48:07
Cullen
It. But that's and that's what I and which I, you know, there's definitely points where that can be taken to the extreme or be taken too far. But I think that to me, that's such a great valuable lesson just in terms of filmmaking. And of course, this is a filmmaking podcast. So just to, just to even talk about that for a second of just like, yeah, I think that that goes right along with his masterclass.
00:12:48:07 - 00:13:00:17
Cullen
When you think about that, his whole point is like, don't delay, don't you know, have urgency, write a script and get out there and don't, you know, dilly dally about the finer details of the screenplay, things like that which.
00:13:00:17 - 00:13:01:18
Clark
I don't overanalyze.
00:13:01:18 - 00:13:22:08
Cullen
And that's something that I'm, you know, without getting into detail, I'm going through right now where I'm just I'm like, okay, I'm making a feature. This is a deadline. Yeah. And it will happen. You know, even in 2019 when I came down we are documentary in in California. Yeah. Yeah. You know, my thought was, okay, on this date I'm buying a plane ticket whether or not we have a a story done.
00:13:22:12 - 00:13:23:04
Clark
We're just doing.
00:13:23:04 - 00:13:30:13
Cullen
It. I'm flying down. It went great. I mean, that was it was one of those things. It was kind of it was the proof is in the pudding where, Yeah, I came down and we made a book.
00:13:30:13 - 00:13:34:06
Clark
We were actually the only person out of our group that actually did. You pulled the trigger.
00:13:34:10 - 00:13:36:07
Cullen
I was like, got to get some skin in the game.
00:13:36:18 - 00:13:44:09
Clark
There you go. And but so these are, you know, so we're kind of to put this in context again. I mean, you know, these are things I think that Dieter and Herzog seem to share.
00:13:44:13 - 00:13:45:00
Cullen
You know.
00:13:45:07 - 00:14:08:16
Clark
Not only do they share these kind of childhood similarities of where they grew up, the conditions that they grew up under, but this I think you see a lot of similarities in perspective. It seems like attitude and personality. Of course, we can only speculate, but that's what we're here to do is to speculate. So, yeah, you know, and I think too, you know, there is, again, you know, speculation on my hunch.
00:14:08:16 - 00:14:32:10
Clark
But I think there's like an honor to Dieter as this, you know, clearly kind of idealized character. I mean, he's a human being, just like any of us are human beings. But this this kind of story is, I think, is crystallizes a part of the human condition that's important to Herzog, which is which is a type of honor, which is to to to survive existence, if you will.
00:14:32:10 - 00:14:53:12
Clark
Right. That life is suffering and to, like you kind of said, to accept that and to continue to move forward in life and to be productive and to and to still live in spite of, you know, and I think this is what Herzog, I think is drawn to the jungle for so many. Like we said, up until now, this was his seventh film being shot in the jungle.
00:14:53:12 - 00:15:16:21
Clark
I mean, it's insane as I think maybe it's it's a it represents that. It's like, you know, walking through life is like walking through the vines and the prickly thorns in the swamp and the mud and the leeches of life that it life is always suffering as we're going to get really like, really positive and optimistic here. But I think you guys know what I mean.
00:15:16:21 - 00:15:33:10
Clark
I mean, it's yes, life is wonderful, but yes, it's always suffering. And when you try to accomplish a task, whether it's make a film or or anything else in life that has if the goal has any kind of value and is worthwhile, it's going to be, you know, has any challenge to it. This is what the world is.
00:15:33:10 - 00:15:33:18
Clark
It's as.
00:15:33:20 - 00:15:38:11
Cullen
If at the moment of challenge you give up, then you're never going to camp as essentially the point.
00:15:38:11 - 00:15:44:08
Clark
Is like leeches sucking from you. It's vines growing up around your legs and threatening to the whole.
00:15:44:08 - 00:15:48:18
Cullen
World is leeches sucking from you and finds falling up. You're late in the year.
00:15:49:16 - 00:16:04:14
Clark
Oh my God, I love it. I just love it. But I mean, we've all felt like that, right? It's like, Yeah. I mean, how many times have you been, you know, in the thick of it and. And, you know, surrounded by the fog of war. You're trying it. You're on a shoot. Are you trying to do something? You're trying to get a project funded?
00:16:04:14 - 00:16:26:03
Clark
I don't know. Whatever it is. I mean, heck, trying to like, you know, build an addition onto my house. So, you know, life is just every single day. Life is filled with many of these things, you know, just trying to reach customer service for 90% of the companies you do business with, I mean, everything. And you're just like the whole world is just conspiring against you to just, you know, suck the very essence from your bones.
00:16:26:19 - 00:16:30:22
Clark
And I can completely see how the jungle is such a great analogy for that.
00:16:32:05 - 00:16:33:23
Cullen
So everything out there wants to kill you.
00:16:33:23 - 00:16:35:11
Clark
Everything out there wants to kill you.
00:16:35:11 - 00:16:44:22
Cullen
And that's, you know, and I think that it's not even a it's not even like a, you know, pessimistic look at life now, If anything, it's pragmatic. It's a very pragmatic. And.
00:16:46:06 - 00:16:46:16
Clark
You know, there.
00:16:46:16 - 00:16:54:08
Cullen
Is a there's an air of positivity because in all these instances, sure, they get out, they win, you know, And that's never been he's never succumbed to the jungle. He's out.
00:16:54:11 - 00:17:17:18
Clark
And that's what I see. Like, if I if I if I could kind of crystallize what I feel like, I'm guessing against speculation not speaking for Herzog, but that would be my guess. I mean, that's what I see, you know, And that's what that's what speaks to me from these films when I see them. It's about the endearing nature of the human spirit in the and I wouldn't even say I would go further and say it's not that everything wants to kill you, it's that it's that everything doesn't give a crap.
00:17:17:18 - 00:17:33:01
Clark
Yeah, about you. That's actually what it is. It's the complete and total indifference of the universe is the your your life, your wishes, your dreams, your pain, your suffering, your agony. Whatever it is, it's total indifference. The universe doesn't care. Everything's just fighting for its own life. And.
00:17:33:01 - 00:17:53:10
Cullen
And just. It's where you get through these. These exactly like it's in again to, you know, avoid going off on a tangent. But all of his movies but you again get this this through line through all of like that's very much you know to make this point what I think Herzog and Dieter really connect on is that through Herzog's movies, he's always said this in Grizzly Man.
00:17:53:10 - 00:17:59:06
Cullen
He talks about how it's like that Timothy Treadwell had this this romanticized vision of nature in the universe, and that when he saw the.
00:17:59:06 - 00:17:59:20
Clark
Dead, that kill.
00:17:59:20 - 00:18:04:21
Cullen
Dead, it kill them. What is Herzog is like? That's life That's that's you know.
00:18:05:08 - 00:18:05:14
Clark
Yeah.
00:18:05:16 - 00:18:15:02
Cullen
But and it doesn't again it doesn't mean that you can't persevere beyond that. But that is even more, I think to me what what Herzog's message is and what his point is through.
00:18:15:05 - 00:18:39:07
Clark
I mean, I think even more I think even more than just persevere. I mean, I think that you can actually partake joyfully in the sorrows of the world. I think I mean, look at, you know, Herzog's made a life of this. It's not that just he's persevering through challenging shoots. I mean, it's where he actually finds his life's treasure is in these most difficult, challenging situations.
00:18:39:07 - 00:18:55:21
Clark
And look at the art that he's brought the world and what beauty that is. And I'm sure that that's filled his life with profound purpose. And I mean, it's what he lives for. It's clearly what he lives for. He's he's one of the most prolific directors of his generation, and he's had don't know how old he is now.
00:18:55:21 - 00:18:57:15
Clark
What is he, 80, almost 80.
00:18:57:15 - 00:18:59:08
Cullen
Some 70, late seventies.
00:18:59:08 - 00:19:13:03
Clark
Late seventies. And he still makes what about a film a year? Yeah. So, you know, clearly he he's still in there and he's still doing it. And it's it's inspiring to me, you know, especially as an older dude. I'm a late bloomer. It's inspiring to me.
00:19:13:15 - 00:19:24:02
Cullen
Oh, yeah. I mean, and it gives for me who you know, I'm just in my early twenties now. It definitely is a it's a good sign that, you know, you don't have to.
00:19:24:02 - 00:19:24:21
Clark
You don't have to give up.
00:19:24:21 - 00:19:30:15
Cullen
YOUNG Yeah, exactly. You don't have to sit down, take that office job. Just go, Yeah, yeah.
00:19:30:15 - 00:19:56:16
Clark
So that I mean, so yeah, I mean, I think that that's what I get out of this film. That's what I get out of so many of Herzog's films. Yeah, it's the narrative thread that I kind of see through so much of his work. And really, I would say it's, it's probably one of the most endearing and inspiring aspects of not just Herzog's work, but kind of at least the persona that he presents to the world is just a big part of why he's an inspiration to me.
00:19:56:16 - 00:20:22:09
Clark
And so, you know, so let's talk about that little segway here. So, you know, one of the challenges is the challenging of getting a challenge, of getting a film made. I mean, and even for Herzog, you know, you mentioned that this film has a budget of 10 million and that that was actually like a fairly decent budget for Herzog, which is, you know, it's so interesting to me that, you know, you can be a successful and legendary a director is Herzog and still finding $10 million can take you that long.
00:20:22:15 - 00:20:24:23
Clark
Yeah, it's challenging, but it's an.
00:20:24:23 - 00:20:27:17
Cullen
Interesting story in this situation, too. It is interesting.
00:20:27:19 - 00:20:58:23
Clark
Yeah. So yeah, so apparently a little bit of background here. This film was entirely funded privately, actually, believe it or not, by a basketball and NBA player who actually had a film company. Is Elton Brand. Elton brand player. Yeah. And he was a founding member and president of Gibraltar films. And they actually funded this film almost entirely, which I find pretty fascinating.
00:20:58:23 - 00:21:23:10
Clark
It wasn't until later that MGM came in and became the distributor of the film, but it you know, and I think it's something that I want to talk to you a little bit about here is, you know, looking at this film and how it was shot and his production design through that lens of having such a tiny budget, because I really feel like Herzog does an extraordinary job as he has done with a lot of films.
00:21:23:10 - 00:21:47:06
Clark
You look at the scope of films like a Gary, I mean, like some really epic looking films. I mean, and with such a little budget, I think this is a great example of that too. I mean, I, I'm aware. So when I watch the film, I'm curious if you were I've seen it a few times. I don't think the first time I saw it, I was aware of this at all, but I'm aware of the compromises that I can see that they had to make because of budget.
00:21:47:06 - 00:21:53:22
Clark
I mean, yeah, you can see that, you know, we're not showing a lot of, you know, of scale in the beginning, especially.
00:21:53:22 - 00:21:54:17
Cullen
In the aircraft carrier.
00:21:54:18 - 00:22:15:18
Clark
Especially on the aircraft carrier. I mean, we're shooting very tight. It's like very clear that, you know, we don't have a whole plane. We just have a kind of a cockpit mock up. I mean, there's some things like this. It's interesting note to, by the way, that this was the first time Herzog had ever used CGI. So we got the CGI sequence of the Sky Raider planes in the beginning because there are no more, apparently, which really is not enough, I would.
00:22:15:18 - 00:22:17:23
Cullen
Say probably a minute of screen time is.
00:22:17:23 - 00:22:22:19
Clark
Very short. Yeah, And not only that, but the crash, the actual when the plane hits the ground is.
00:22:22:19 - 00:22:23:19
Cullen
Yeah, that's all practical.
00:22:23:21 - 00:22:44:16
Clark
Yeah, it is a practical. But I mean and you can see even in that, I mean you know, even in that explosion or the crash rather it's very tightly shot. There's we don't have a lot of wide, you know, establishing shots to kind of to give it scope. But Herzog still does an extraordinary job with that. And I think, you know, where they shoot it.
00:22:44:16 - 00:23:05:12
Clark
I mean, I think the fact that they were willing to to take a small group and go out and actually live in the jungle for 40 for shoot days, I mean, that it's amazing the production value that that that you can see so much of that on screen. It's really extraordinary. But I mean, I think it's I think it's a really good example of what you can do with not a lot of dough.
00:23:05:21 - 00:23:24:15
Clark
Yeah, totally. And with Hollywood, you know, actors we've got and I'm sure, you know, especially Christian Bale probably took a cut here. I don't I hadn't read anything specific about what his fees were. But to be able to shoot with, you know, Hollywood actors, $10,000,000.40 for shoot days on location in Thailand is amazing.
00:23:24:18 - 00:23:46:00
Cullen
Mm hmm. And I mean, I mentioned this, too, where it's like there's a moment where you pull back and show the whole set of the the POW camp, the prisoners. Incredible. It looks, you know, the I was sitting there thinking like, this is this is it looks really I think Herzog did a really wonderful job of making really stretching that one.
00:23:46:00 - 00:23:49:18
Cullen
$10 million. Yeah. And making it, you know, putting it to really good use.
00:23:50:01 - 00:24:10:08
Clark
Well, apparently one of the ways they did that there was that the the prison camp, the P.O.W. camp was actually the only set that they built. Mm hmm. Yes. Yeah. That they actually used preexisting real villages for all the other locations. And you can. And it really comes across because you can really see the feel of the.
00:24:10:08 - 00:24:11:18
Cullen
Lived in and stuff like that in the.
00:24:11:18 - 00:24:27:01
Clark
Jungle has kind of, you know because they've been there for so long, these villages, the jungle has crept in and just, you know, I mean they're half consumed by the jungle. So, yeah, that's of course something that would be extremely difficult and expensive to do if you had to build it yourself and then, you know, wait for the jungle to encroach again.
00:24:27:10 - 00:24:59:21
Clark
But yeah, production design was outstanding, you know, Of course, you know. Herzog So I think, you know, he has so much experience shooting in these areas, shooting on location, working with local crew. And that's another way that I think clearly you save a ton of dough. And his experience with that is is is sure paid off. I mean, it's interesting, you know, all the extras were local here and this entire film and all the actors who played the Viet Cong are all actually stuntmen, which it was interesting to learn.
00:24:59:21 - 00:25:15:01
Clark
They're actually experienced stuntmen. And even the and apparently the one of the main guards with a longer hair and the sunglasses actually worked as a stunt. A stuntman with Christian Bale in the Batman film.
00:25:15:01 - 00:25:17:03
Cullen
Yeah, just Batman begins with it. It's been a year before.
00:25:17:03 - 00:25:18:18
Clark
Just a year before this. Yeah.
00:25:18:18 - 00:25:25:13
Cullen
So which probably was even less considering. Well, I guess Batman Begins probably shot in 2005. This was probably shot 26 ish ish.
00:25:25:15 - 00:25:40:01
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. So but it it really is amazing. And it was a treat. It was a treat for me. I don't know how you feel. I'm curious to know, but it was a treat for me to see that Herzog had actually used CGI and he admits to storyboarding.
00:25:40:02 - 00:25:53:06
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then again, that was another thing, is that it makes sense. I mean, again, you kind of have to when it comes to a partnership that you have. There's a few things in here too, because I pointed out also that there's there's, you know, two or three shots in the movie that you zoom lenses as well.
00:25:53:09 - 00:25:53:16
Clark
Right.
00:25:53:16 - 00:25:57:23
Cullen
So there's a few of those things that Herzog says that he rarely, if ever, uses that which we've visited here.
00:25:58:09 - 00:25:58:17
Clark
Yeah.
00:25:58:17 - 00:26:20:06
Cullen
Which, you know, that he's used. Yeah, he's certainly used zooms before. Yeah. But I Yeah, I think that's really it I think it's his use of CGI here is very restrained. It's certainly only I think in the moments where like I think that for the flying stick of course there's a moment where you get the pan over and you see the plane take off and that's very you know, it's clearly CGI because there's not a huge budget.
00:26:20:12 - 00:26:23:18
Clark
And he even uses stock footage for the. Yes. For the.
00:26:23:18 - 00:26:24:18
Cullen
Documentary. Right.
00:26:24:18 - 00:26:29:04
Clark
For yeah, he uses stock footage before that. So he I mean, he's really limiting.
00:26:29:15 - 00:26:31:04
Cullen
The use of CGI, the use.
00:26:31:04 - 00:26:32:19
Clark
Of CGI to the bare minimum.
00:26:33:02 - 00:26:49:17
Cullen
And then you look at but even the moments when they're in the sky, when they're when they're flying in the sky raiders and you can tell that the cockpit is real and that they probably shot it outside on some very, very, you know, you know, minimal motion control thing is probably just even like a manual thing that they could shake with their hand if.
00:26:49:17 - 00:26:51:02
Clark
Even if even. Yeah.
00:26:51:02 - 00:26:51:13
Cullen
And then.
00:26:51:13 - 00:26:52:16
Clark
Camera shake. Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:52:17 - 00:27:23:21
Cullen
Exactly. Yeah. But it almost like to me it felt those flying sequences as short as they are, they felt very, you know, in a good way, very childlike. Like it felt to me, like reminded me sort of of like the movies that I used to make in a weird way with, like, Lego people. And I don't know if that was intentional, but what it made me feel like was that this was almost a dieter's impression of what being a pilot was like when he was a kid, that it's almost like you're bringing this, this, this very, you know, just seeing him sit in the cockpit and talk.
00:27:23:22 - 00:27:29:03
Cullen
And it was like, I don't know, it felt very playful, you know, in a way, you know, innocent. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
00:27:29:03 - 00:27:31:11
Clark
And not in a bad way. Well, you know, that it also.
00:27:31:11 - 00:27:42:09
Cullen
Describes you know, it goes along with what Dieter said, too, but how he didn't know there are people down there like they never can consider that there were people on the ground when he was dropping bombs, that he was just up there because he loved flies.
00:27:42:09 - 00:28:11:06
Clark
He loved LANE Well, that's a really interesting observation. And I and I like that. And now that you say it, you know, I look back and I think I know because of the commentary on the Blu ray of this film, you know. Herzog It was definitely conscientious of and wanted to in part. And there's deleted scenes which actually build up to this even more, that Dieter was really innocent and naive about what he was actually going to do that, you know, to him, this was an adventure.
00:28:11:06 - 00:28:33:18
Clark
He just loved to fly, Like he just wanted a chance to fly. That's why he was there. And I think, you know, that kind of innocence really permeates the whole character of Dieter through the whole thing, you know, whether it's like, you know, the smiling guard moment where he kind of shares this little moment with the guard, his ability to keep his his his attitude positive.
00:28:33:18 - 00:28:41:19
Cullen
And even when they're in the jungle. And then the end of Duane is saying, oh, you know, I'm not going to make it. He's like, yeah, I'll come. We'll go get milkshakes and burgers.
00:28:41:23 - 00:28:56:19
Clark
Well, with everyone, right? I mean, all the other characters. Dieter And so you're right. I feel like there was this effort at even extending through to the effects which you just mentioned, that there is this childlike kind of quality and that's really endearing.
00:28:56:19 - 00:28:58:08
Cullen
That's really. Yeah, no, I loved it.
00:28:58:08 - 00:28:59:21
Clark
I see that. Yeah.
00:29:00:07 - 00:29:19:07
Cullen
And even just the fact that you never like, there's no, like, sweeping shots of all the planes coming in, it's very much close focus the cockpit and, you know, you get a few shots of planes in the distance kind of doing their their turns into dives and stuff like that. But it's always from the perspective of Bale's cockpit.
00:29:19:14 - 00:29:24:20
Cullen
Yeah. You know, you never get these sweeping, like grand action shots of the planes. It's very.
00:29:24:20 - 00:29:25:20
Clark
Intimate. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:29:25:21 - 00:29:26:05
Cullen
It's it's.
00:29:26:06 - 00:29:42:11
Clark
Very intimate. I think that's a great example of, you know, and now obviously to a lot of people listening here and to myself and to you, too. COHEN You know, $10 million and we're saying, oh, what a tiny budget, $10 million is. Of course, you know, more money than most people ever have to make a film. Yes. But this extrapolates, right?
00:29:42:11 - 00:29:56:11
Clark
This extrapolates to much smaller budget. This is a great example of where budgetary constraints can actually help a film. Yeah. And can actually help you find more interesting solutions for, you know, storytelling challenges.
00:29:56:11 - 00:30:03:00
Cullen
And I mean, because it's kind of a contradiction, but but films get more expensive. The bigger budget they get, if that makes any sense.
00:30:03:00 - 00:30:03:10
Clark
So no.
00:30:03:15 - 00:30:21:13
Cullen
You know, so with with $500,000, you know, you would arguably make, you know, not just in the literal sense of you're only spending $500,000, but you would make technically a cheaper film versus $10 million because you have the $10 million and now it becomes a larger production. You're spending more money in every aspect.
00:30:21:16 - 00:30:32:05
Clark
It's like orders. It's like there's like this reverse economy of scale or something. Yeah, right. It's like the more people you have, the more I mean, yes, costs just ballooned. Costs just ballooned. I think.
00:30:32:05 - 00:30:32:11
Cullen
Yes.
00:30:32:23 - 00:30:55:14
Clark
It's it's another great you know, I think it's for independent filmmakers, for filmmakers just starting out, I guess maybe just filmmakers in general. I mean, Herzog does provide a really great example throughout his career of doing a lot with not a lot of money and more importantly, maybe even not waiting for this perfect, you know, like I've got to have $50 million to make this movie.
00:30:55:14 - 00:31:13:19
Clark
I mean, Herzog could have said, you know, there's no way I'm making this film for less than $60 million. And, you know, he'd still be waiting to make it. But the fact that he's so willing to, you know, to to compromise on budgets and, you know, and to to really put himself out there, you know, he's got a crew of die hard people.
00:31:13:19 - 00:31:34:18
Clark
He's worked a long time with. And, you know, he's he's willing to go out there and sleep in a little hut without trailers. And he you know, he keeps things so cheap and a big part of that is just yeah, he's willing to go through that. He's willing to suffer. But, you know, and I think for him, though, and he's turned it into something that's not even really suffering, you know, which is fantastic.
00:31:34:18 - 00:31:35:21
Clark
Yeah, it's adventure.
00:31:36:00 - 00:31:38:00
Cullen
Very prolific. Yeah, exactly.
00:31:38:00 - 00:31:56:13
Clark
Which is kind of I feel like what Dieter saw this at, as you know, which is just mind blowing. And one of the things, too, that I thought was really interesting was that in the post script for this, apparently Dieter went on to went on to be a pilot and had several more plane crash.
00:31:56:13 - 00:31:58:12
Cullen
More crashes in the desert Test Pilot.
00:31:58:12 - 00:32:14:18
Clark
Five And that's just one more way that I can kind of see Dieter and Herzog being similar. You know, it's a curse, goes out into the jungle and he's like, you know, everything's trying to murder you. And then but it's like he goes back out there six more times. And I get a strong sense that Dieter is just the exact same way.
00:32:14:18 - 00:32:23:11
Clark
A lot of people would have been like, No way, man. You know, that's my last day flying ever. When I got shot down and had to spend half a year in a POW camp, I'm not doing that again.
00:32:23:11 - 00:32:39:02
Cullen
And I also I mean, I remember in the when the Herzog Masterclass was first announced and the trailer came out and stuff, and there was one line in it that I was kind of stuck with me, which is that like Herzog as a director who's even whose flops are magnificent and flops, of course, meaning like the budget or the the box office flops.
00:32:39:05 - 00:32:39:12
Clark
Right.
00:32:39:18 - 00:32:42:12
Cullen
And it's like even when his movies don't, you know.
00:32:42:12 - 00:32:43:06
Clark
Return a lot of.
00:32:43:06 - 00:33:00:18
Cullen
Return their money or whatever, they're still such interesting movies and such special movies. And I think that that very much is kind of in line with what you're saying, which is that like even if you crash that plane for more times, you're still a pilot. Like he's still going at it. He's still in that career in that line of work, which is really interesting.
00:33:00:22 - 00:33:40:04
Clark
Yeah, absolutely. A persistence is a key aspect to both the Cedar's personality and to Herzog's personality. You know, some interesting things, too, you know, especially we haven't done a lot of comparison to the documentary, so like we could touch base on that a little bit since we just did that last week. It's fresh in our minds. But that kind of this idea of and there's a handful of interesting things here to discuss I think this idea and it's a it's a thread throughout all of Herzog's work as kind of this difference between an accountant's truth and an ecstatic truth and this, quote unquote, you know, real life versus the narrative that he's presenting in this
00:33:40:04 - 00:34:05:19
Clark
film, I think is really interesting. Some of these things are pretty straightforward and simple. I mean, look, films are always you're streamlining stories. You know, you've only got an hour and a half, 2 hours to tell a story. So you're always simplifying and streamlining. And of course, some of that happens here. I mean, we you know, there's details that are discussed in little Dieter needs to Fly that are left out here and in, quote unquote, real life.
00:34:06:02 - 00:34:15:12
Clark
Dieter is captured, he's escapes and then he's captured again. And then he's he's walked to a prison camp. And I spent I think it's like six weeks or something.
00:34:15:12 - 00:34:21:14
Cullen
Yeah. He describes six weeks of walking through the jungle and after in the jungle and stuff like that before arrives at the camp.
00:34:21:14 - 00:34:26:17
Clark
Before he even arrives at the camp. So we see, you know, very much a streamlining of that story here.
00:34:26:17 - 00:34:27:23
Cullen
It's like three days or so.
00:34:28:04 - 00:34:37:19
Clark
We just leave out all that too, You know, he's he crash lands and he's caught almost immediately. And it only takes a couple of days to walk.
00:34:37:19 - 00:34:58:15
Cullen
And I would say also the only real specific point of of like tale from from Dieter's description of that six weeks is the offer to kind of be not released but have better treatment if he were to disavow American action. And he you know, we see that we see that down in the House. I'm not sure how it occurred in real life.
00:34:58:15 - 00:35:01:13
Cullen
He never really goes into details of if he was in that house or.
00:35:02:00 - 00:35:02:08
Clark
If it.
00:35:02:08 - 00:35:16:12
Cullen
Was just in some village or something. But, yeah, he goes into a rather, you know, a more for, you know, built up civilized house rather than like a, you know, a hut in the forest. And it's very clearly some sort of place.
00:35:16:14 - 00:35:17:15
Clark
Military along.
00:35:17:17 - 00:35:40:09
Cullen
Or. Yeah, exactly. And is offered, you know, to, to disavow and sign a paper that disavows U.S. military action in Vietnam. Right. And as in real life, of course, he refuses. So that part is in there, which of course, is an important kind of character defining moment for him. But you also describe that there's a point that's deleted, which is, as we discussed last week, this idea of his ring being stolen by a villager.
00:35:40:14 - 00:35:45:10
Cullen
Right. And so they shot that scene. You said, I haven't seen the deleted scene, but you watched from the Blu ray.
00:35:45:16 - 00:35:47:04
Clark
Well, they did, actually, yeah, where.
00:35:47:04 - 00:35:50:08
Cullen
They shot it. And what we talk about a little bit about that also.
00:35:50:08 - 00:36:09:08
Clark
So let's remember, we'll go back to the documentary and remember Dieter tells a story about how he was being, you know, in the after he was caught a second time and he's been walked to the P.O.W. camp. They stop off in a village and one of the villagers steals his ring. And I can't remember it. It's a wedding ring.
00:36:09:08 - 00:36:13:09
Clark
I think it is right. Or a gate, something. And his.
00:36:13:09 - 00:36:15:18
Cullen
Engagement ring. He got engagement ring the day before you.
00:36:15:18 - 00:36:33:05
Clark
Okay, so he had a ring as part of his engagement, which I never had. I have to tell you, I didn't get an engagement ring, but my wife did, and I didn't. But. But it's stolen by a villager. And I guess, you know, this is just kind of one of these weird it's like you can hardly make this up because you wouldn't think this would happen in real life, Right?
00:36:33:05 - 00:36:54:05
Clark
So it's almost like more difficult to put this into a film that it is, you know, because it hardly makes sense. But he actually went to his captors and said, Hey, they stole my engagement ring. And they literally like the people who were torturing him, went to the villager on his behalf and cut off the villagers finger to give him back his ring.
00:36:54:22 - 00:37:02:00
Clark
And of course, this is, you know, this clearly shows that the captors are not just these monsters. I mean, that, you know, they have.
00:37:02:00 - 00:37:03:23
Cullen
It's more it more shows that they're doing a job, if.
00:37:03:23 - 00:37:17:13
Clark
Any, morals and values. Absolutely. And they're like, hey, that even though this guy's a P.O.W. and he's from somebody you know, he's somebody from a country that's been killing our people and we're in war, that's still inappropriate. And, you know, and it also.
00:37:17:13 - 00:37:24:09
Cullen
Kind of it almost to me what I would have liked to see about that scene. I understand why Herzog says he cut it due to the violence.
00:37:24:09 - 00:37:24:13
Clark
But.
00:37:24:20 - 00:37:43:17
Cullen
What I like pretty cracked is to me, that almost shows. And there's other instances in the movie of this being shown. So I can see why it wasn't totally necessary. But it shows to me this this, this funny contradiction of like rules of war or like war crimes, which is like, you can shoot someone, but you can't shoot someone the wrong way.
00:37:43:17 - 00:37:55:17
Cullen
You can kill people and kill people in the way. And it's the irony is exactly this, which is we're going to torture you, but we're not going to mistreat you. You know, you're still a human being, so we're going to torture you even though you're you're you're a prisoner of war. But how dare you know.
00:37:55:19 - 00:37:57:19
Clark
How dare someone steal? You're a murderer.
00:37:58:04 - 00:38:03:14
Cullen
And so it's this great. I mean, to me that that is just a great moment of distinction.
00:38:03:16 - 00:38:28:07
Clark
The term war crimes in it of themself is kind of layers to this kind of paradox, right, of just ridiculousness. But, you know, this just irony of how that all works out. But. Right but so so and you're correct that Herzog did shoot this and he said he was pushed by the production to shoot it. And I think because it's right, this is quite cinematic you know, it's actually it's kind of you know, it's it's spectacular, if you will.
00:38:28:07 - 00:38:46:15
Clark
It's spectacle. But Herzog said that that yeah, he just you know, he felt like that this violence against such an innocent person just really bothered him. And and so he he decided to leave it out. But they did shoot it and it was pretty graphic. I mean, we're like right there on the hand, you know. Yeah.
00:38:47:08 - 00:38:49:18
Cullen
They did all the check it out afterwards and take a look at it.
00:38:50:11 - 00:38:59:13
Clark
Well, apparently his first cut of the film was about 2 hours, 40 minutes, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 240. And so what is the final film that. I think it's just a just.
00:38:59:13 - 00:39:01:21
Cullen
Over 2 hours, an hour or 2 minutes or 2 hours.
00:39:01:21 - 00:39:19:13
Clark
Who I into the story. Exactly. So he clearly cut out quite a bit but I could absolutely see why to, you know, to have the two be captured and escape and then be captured again and that you know, it's I think he really worked hard to get us in the P.O.W. camp, quickly introduced to the rest of the characters.
00:39:19:19 - 00:39:39:00
Clark
And he does that I think we get there. We get there pretty quickly, what, within 10 minutes or something. So that's, you know, quite a bit of simplification from Dieter Story. But, you know, this is interesting to me. You know, that is that's something where it's like, okay, this is I feel like that's pretty clear cut. You know, films always do this.
00:39:39:10 - 00:39:41:18
Clark
And I it doesn't seem controversial.
00:39:41:18 - 00:39:42:05
Cullen
It's about.
00:39:42:06 - 00:39:42:20
Clark
Efficiency.
00:39:42:20 - 00:39:43:14
Cullen
Of storytelling.
00:39:43:15 - 00:40:11:13
Clark
Efficiency of storytelling doesn't bother me at all. But this, I think, is more complicated and is more interesting of a topic to me. Yep. You know what I'm going to say. So apparently, you know Herzog, when he was writing the film, when he was writing the script, he sat down with Dieter over some beers and basically just listened to Dieter tell stories and wrote down all of his stories and, you know, and they kind of fit together what he wanted to highlight in the film.
00:40:11:13 - 00:40:27:00
Clark
And apparently when the film was released, there was a little bit of controversy where the family of some of the other real life people who were in this situation, like Eugene de Bruin, for example, who is portrayed by Jeremy DAVIES.
00:40:27:20 - 00:40:45:20
Cullen
That they're one of the men who actually survived, which is his name was I've got it right here to Sheehy in there that in Indra that oh, I think he says the other survivor of the group. So there were two survivors total. And I think he was so he was one of the Thai men that got away.
00:40:46:00 - 00:41:18:23
Clark
Okay. So so there was, I think, a little bit of controversy. I don't you'll have to tell me a little bit more about his him or his family. But for Eugene de Bruin, I think there was they felt like his depiction in the film was pretty one sided and it wasn't actually factually accurate. But the question that this raises for me that I think is an interesting one is, and especially right when you're dealing with telling a supposed, you know, a true story, if you will, or if telling a story based on facts, based on actual real people, and especially if you're going to use those people's names.
00:41:18:23 - 00:41:38:18
Clark
Right. I mean, theoretically, Herzog could have made this film and he could have changed the name. I mean, it could be based on Dieter's life, but he could have changed the names so that, you know, he he could have done several different things to kind of tackle this. But, you know, he used everybody's real names. He it's clearly this is about a real event.
00:41:39:00 - 00:41:58:06
Clark
I'm curious what your thoughts are on what obligations, if any, do you feel like Herzog had to seek more sources than just Dieter's or, you know, to go to these other families to proactively seek them out and get their perspective, or, I guess, for lack of a better word, to do, like well-rounded research?
00:41:58:06 - 00:42:09:10
Cullen
Yeah, I mean, I can it's difficult to say because I can't really like in terms of the ethics, it's difficult to say without knowing the exact situation of, you know, they say that that they to reach out to Herzog during production.
00:42:09:10 - 00:42:22:14
Clark
Not even asking. Yeah, I'm not even asking to sit in judgment of Herzog in this case. I just I guess I'm kind of look, I'm kind of curious myself, too, about just let's take this away from just this one specific.
00:42:22:15 - 00:42:23:06
Cullen
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:23:13 - 00:42:24:18
Clark
But just in general.
00:42:24:18 - 00:42:47:11
Cullen
So I can see why it's done. I can see and not only specifically to this, but generally I can see, you know, in any instance of a movie, my, my first instinct is like, how do we raise the stakes? Right? And so this is clearly a way to raise the stakes is one of the people that they're in camp with is, you know, has this or has this this fundamental, you know, obsession with the fact that they're going to be set free.
00:42:47:11 - 00:43:13:04
Cullen
So that automatically creates a conflict, which raises the drama. So I can see from a narrative storytelling standpoint why you would do that, why we would decide to go in that direction. Sure. So I don't you know, it's it's one of those things that it's difficult because there's kind of again, there's two sides of that, too. There's the other side of it, though, where it's like, you know, how how inaccurate is okay to be claiming truth.
00:43:13:04 - 00:43:28:10
Cullen
Right? Because, you know, the so the other man that that I mentioned that actually did escape one of the time prisoners who who got away and survived. He describes that you know that they had this whole escape plan prior to Dieter being there and that they waited two weeks to tell them and that they were all in on it.
00:43:28:10 - 00:43:40:06
Cullen
And that Jean, who was kind of portrayed as the guy that is like, I'll scream if you guys try to escape because they'll kill us all if we do. And very fearful and stuff like that, that he shared food in real life, that he went back for other prisoners. It was.
00:43:40:06 - 00:43:41:08
Clark
Actually quite so.
00:43:41:11 - 00:44:02:00
Cullen
Right. So there's all this other stuff. And Herzog acknowledges that after the movie, he says, I did. I wasn't aware and stuff like that, which is good. But again, it I mean, I think it's it's you know, it's not our place to at least to me, you know I'm not going to judge a filmmaker's actions on on how they just decided to tell their story.
00:44:02:00 - 00:44:21:06
Cullen
I can understand being disappointed as a family or being angered at that because it's like, this is our family member's legacy. Yeah, but at the same time, I think I think that Herzog, you know, just Herzog's mindset to me was, you know, how do I make this story more engaging, more interesting and more exciting, right? That was his angle.
00:44:21:06 - 00:44:41:08
Cullen
I don't think his intention was by any means to, you know, take the memory of someone and tarnish them and make them a bad person. Yeah. And I also think at the same time, too, I think it's also a completely reasonable reaction to be in a prisoner of war camp and to be fearful for your life and to say, if we try to escape, they're going to kill us all.
00:44:41:08 - 00:45:09:07
Cullen
Like I when I was watching the movie, I don't see that character by any means as an antagonist. I see that character as someone who's just been in a prisoner of war camp for years and is so desperate at this point that his mind is basically gone to the point of just like, How do I survive? Right? And I thought that that was, if anything, again, when we're talking about this efficiency of storytelling, that that is to me like this almost this warning sign to Dieter of like this is what's going to happen to me if I'm here for too long and then try to want to escape faster.
00:45:09:07 - 00:45:26:10
Cullen
And, you know, and she wants him to leave. So so to me, it's, you know, again, the in terms of the ethical standing of it, I'm not going to really put my judgment in because I don't think I think that I would need to be more involved in the context to really make a fair judgment on that. Sure.
00:45:26:19 - 00:45:29:17
Cullen
And so I can understand both sides. I can definitely understand we're.
00:45:29:17 - 00:45:46:20
Clark
Both it's a tough one. I'm on it. Yeah. Yeah, it's a tough one. I mean, I agree. I wouldn't I'm not going to sit here in judgment of Herzog as a person at all. Not even close. But it's an interesting question. You know, that different shades of this question, I think, are likely to to kind of come in front of us.
00:45:47:21 - 00:46:08:03
Clark
You know, if you if you make a certain number of films, if you're in this gig for very long, I think you're likely kind of run across some kind of coloration of this question, right? How you present things, you know, especially anytime if you're working with a documentary and there are actually real live people involved. These aren't made up characters, but we're actually dealing with real people.
00:46:08:16 - 00:46:33:13
Clark
You know, there's this question I think comes up a lot. And it's certainly I mean, I know that it's come up for me how you represent people and, you know, how do you choose to handle that? How do you balance the, you know, shaping the story versus how you deal with the actual human beings who represent the people on the screen when you're done?
00:46:34:08 - 00:46:43:14
Clark
And I don't think there are easy answers. I think it's you know, every filmmaker has to I mean, hopefully you're at least thinking about these things, though, and that's a good start. You know, hopefully.
00:46:43:22 - 00:47:04:05
Cullen
Yeah. And I mean, again, who knows if because again, the the families say that they tried to reach out to Herzog during the production and that they, you know, to no avail. And that, again, could completely just be like Herzog's publicist just being like, no, no, of course, let them know he's busy. Yeah, like, I don't see Herzog as someone who would have intentionally maligned somebody.
00:47:04:06 - 00:47:05:01
Clark
No, I don't think so.
00:47:05:01 - 00:47:06:23
Cullen
And of course, again, that's all speculation, but.
00:47:07:20 - 00:47:11:03
Clark
But doesn't seem likely. It doesn't seem likely at the Intiman.
00:47:11:03 - 00:47:25:22
Cullen
That the past of his you know, his actions in the past. It doesn't seem like he and I, you know, I'll take him at his word to say that if he says, had I known this, I would have altered that and made it made it more accurate to life. And I yeah, I believe him on that.
00:47:26:17 - 00:47:27:23
Clark
But absolutely, again but.
00:47:27:23 - 00:47:39:17
Cullen
Again, it's one of those things, too, that comes out just like at any point people are going to you to criticize inaccuracies in film, but they're almost always has to be some level of inaccuracy because you're just.
00:47:39:22 - 00:47:40:12
Clark
Yeah.
00:47:40:12 - 00:47:48:19
Cullen
You just simply can't tell an 100% true story through film by the documentary or whether it's it's a narrative.
00:47:49:04 - 00:48:12:15
Clark
Well, and people are always going to have different it's like ultimately to it would come out let's just take this case for example you know it's like okay, you've got one survivor, you know, you've got Dieter telling his story. You may have other family members saying, well, that's not what we heard. You know, that almost becomes like a he said, you know, she said or kind of you know, there's these different perspectives and it's like, you know, that could be an impossible quagmire to wade through.
00:48:12:15 - 00:48:15:14
Clark
And you may not end up ever even being able to, you know, start.
00:48:15:19 - 00:48:16:22
Cullen
And the other difficulty.
00:48:16:22 - 00:48:17:11
Clark
That yeah.
00:48:17:11 - 00:48:50:08
Cullen
The other difficulty there too, is just that it's like, you know, again, we weren't there for those conversations with Dieter and Herzog. So do I think that Dieter seems like someone who would, you know, have told Herzog that one of us was cowardly? No, no, no. I think that like, to me, if I you know, just if I'm allowed to speculate for a moment, what I think would have happened was just that those details about the specifics between interpersonal things were, you know, again, stripped down to their their basic basics, too, for efficiency sake, because they did also cut out one person that were seven prisoners war in real life, and there's only six in
00:48:50:08 - 00:49:14:11
Cullen
the movie. So I'm sure that Herzog was just kind of like, all right, let's just put, you know, certain characters have certain plot functions and we need to fulfill those. So what was going to, you know, for the sake of efficiency, put those into the different people and alter their personalities slightly. Yeah. And so I think it was more just a matter to me again of like while Herzog was writing the script, he was like, Well, we need something to prevent Dieter from going out immediately.
00:49:14:11 - 00:49:28:01
Cullen
We need we need to prevent Dieter from his full on, like there needs to be conflict within this this prisoner of war camp. It can't just be entirely, you know. Right. Okay, we're going to break out. It's not the great escape. There has to be some conflict. So that's why we.
00:49:28:06 - 00:49:45:07
Clark
You know, I think it comes back to, you know, again, it what the intention kind of isn't to, like, pick apart this particular instance, but rather I just I feel like it it kind of it is an instance of a question that just comes up a lot as any artist. Yeah. I think, you know, Herzog speaks to it a lot, too.
00:49:45:07 - 00:50:05:12
Clark
I think it's something that Herzog has handled, dealt with and spoke to throughout his entire career. And, you know, he frames the question of an accountant's truth versus an ecstatic truth. And so I you know, I see that in his work for sure. And it's it's extremely clear in his documentaries, more so more apparent than most other filmmakers.
00:50:05:17 - 00:50:21:00
Clark
You know, his his desire to issue that accountant's facts and move toward it, what he sees as an esthetic truth. I think it just so happens in this film you're dealing with, you're using real people's names and.
00:50:21:00 - 00:50:21:23
Cullen
Sensitive subject.
00:50:21:23 - 00:50:40:14
Clark
Matter, and it's a very sensitive subject matter. So, you know, I certainly can see that. But, you know, I agree with you completely. I don't think there was ever any kind of intention to misrepresent somebody or to make somebody appear in a in a bad light. I don't think so at all. So, yeah. Yeah. But I mean, and I agree with you, too.
00:50:40:14 - 00:50:55:15
Clark
I think that overall it's like I didn't look at any of these characters and think, Oh my gosh, you know, what a horrible person I think like, wow, this is the range of potential human responses to the most extreme situation I could ever imagine. I mean, because.
00:50:55:15 - 00:51:16:00
Cullen
Of course, Duane, while not being the, you know, someone who says, I'm going to I'm going to prevent or escape, Duane is also very much a a, you know, someone who in the movie, I mean, is is seen as for lack of a better term, weak is seen as he as they're making their way to the jungle he says you know leave me behind.
00:51:16:04 - 00:51:32:16
Cullen
He doesn't, you know, assist with the escape when when he was supposed to and things like that. And so that's a big point of difference. Whereas in in real life, supposedly they there was very much more group effort in terms of the assistance of the escape. Whereas in the movie it's kind of more represented as Dieter being sort of abandoned.
00:51:33:07 - 00:51:56:04
Cullen
Yes. And having to do it all himself, including by Duane. You know, Duane not intentionally, but rather, you know, he's the he throws up on the ground and is kind of sick. So he Dieter goes on and succeeds without him. Right. But but again, and so like you said, it was the range of human reaction, range of human response to these situations that I found interesting rather than necessarily inciting.
00:51:56:06 - 00:52:28:08
Clark
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, too, it's just important to remember as well. I mean, I think, you know, this is and, you know, Herzog says in the commentary track at the end of this film, which is a really beautiful and I think more sentimental kind of Hollywood ish ending than almost any other of of Herzog's films. But Herzog said, you know, he's talking about this ending and how he said he really wanted this to be a gift to Dieter's sons because Dieter was passed away at this point.
00:52:28:17 - 00:52:50:13
Clark
But that really got a sense that that Herzog's goal here was to tell Dieter Story as Dieter shared it and felt it the share it with Herzog and as he felt it personally. So all of us have our own, you know, truths that we see the world through. I mean, you know, none of our memories are any kind of objective reality, truth.
00:52:50:21 - 00:53:10:00
Clark
And so I think that, you know, this is very much a film that's told very much from one person's perspective, and that's okay. And, you know, sometimes I can look in, like you said, I can understand how if you were, you know, a family member of yours was represented in a way that you didn't feel like was truthful, that that might be painful.
00:53:10:00 - 00:53:30:15
Clark
But, you know, I think all told, Herzog generally does a really good job of and he's like, will tell anybody anywhere, you know, hey, I'm not saying that every, you know, everything that happened in this story is factually true. I'm working toward it, our artistic truth. And it's something that I try to work towards as well. And I think it's a good goal.
00:53:30:15 - 00:53:30:22
Clark
So.
00:53:30:22 - 00:53:31:16
Cullen
Totally. Yeah.
00:53:31:21 - 00:53:56:20
Clark
All right. Well, we've knocked another one down. Colin Yeah, I can't believe it. 27 episodes in and it's outstanding. I look forward to seeing what what film we're going to cover next time. But as always, I enjoyed our conversation and I look forward to next time. So until then, everybody, thanks so much for hanging out with us. We'll catch you On the flip side, My.