Cullen
Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast for episode 26. Today we're going to talk with little Dieter Needs to Fly. I'm joined, as always, by my good friend Clark Coffey down in California. How are you doing?
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Clark
I'm doing fantastic, man. How are you?
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Cullen
I am good warming up here, which is nice to know. And springtime is kind of rolling around.
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Clark
Great times around. Yeah, it's beautiful here. I can see out into the Pacific Ocean ever so ever so slightly awesome Catalina Island out there. It's a beautiful day today. We actually got some rain yesterday as it clears up the sky. Things are are nice and green ing up. So, yeah, I'm excited to talk about this film. I know you had selected the film for this episode and you said that it was a film that you really enjoyed and.
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Cullen
Are kind of actually going to be doing a little bit of a two parter. So we're going to actually talk about, of course, because little Dieter needs to fly is the documentary from 97 about Dieter Dengler, who was a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War, allowed escaped. But then an.
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Clark
Amazing.
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Cullen
Story about a decade later made well in less than a decade, made a movie with Christian Bale Rescue Dawn right about Dengler. So we're going to be doing that one next week and.
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Clark
It'll be really interesting. Yeah. You know, we've we've never had an opportunity to approach basically the same subject matter from both a documentary film and a narrative film. Now, of course, we know Herzog always likes to, you know, manipulate and, you know, do things in his documentary films that a lot of other directors don't do. It's one of the reasons that I love Herzog, frankly.
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Clark
And we're going to talk about some of that as we go through this. But it'll be it'll be interesting to see the same subject matter approached in two different films. Yeah.
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Cullen
And compare the different like perhaps there will be differences even in story.
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Clark
Yeah, absolutely.
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Cullen
Yeah. So without further ado, though, yeah. What's the texture of them in the film opens with probably a pretty pertinent Bible passage, which is Revelation nine six. Yeah. And that is in those days shall men seek death and shall not find it and shall desire to die and death shall flee from them. So pretty pertinent to the fact that you know you're and real.
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Clark
And that's.
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Cullen
A good point.
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Clark
Because it's actually it is actually a real quote from the Bible, the King James version, if I'm not mistaken, of the Bible, revelations nine six. Now, you know, immediately when I saw this quote, because I've been kind of primed right. From from a lot of other quotes. That's a supposed quotes that Herzog puts in his films. I was like, wait a minute, I'm going to go look that up.
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Clark
Is that really a real quote? And believe it or not, it actually was, which I was totally surprised by.
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Cullen
Yeah, No. And that's that's again, it's one of those things that you're kind of you're almost more surprised when the quotes reel.
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Clark
I know at least with Herzog for sure. Yeah. And maybe it'd be a good take to just before we hop into the film proper we could give like just a little bit of background for people. On who. Dieter Of.
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Cullen
Course. Yeah.
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Clark
Yeah. Dingler was and kind of, you know, hopefully you've seen the film. If you haven't, we definitely recommend you check it out and maybe do that before you listen to this podcast because of course we will be discussing the film at length and detail. But just as a refresher, for those of you who've seen the film, or maybe you didn't have a ton of background on Dieter before, we'll just give a quick kind of overview, but yeah, Dieter was actually born in Germany, so he shares that with Herzog.
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Cullen
Very many similarities with Herzog, weirdly, as we'll get into.
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Clark
Oh yeah, yeah. Which is very interesting. Right? And he was born in 38 and he grew up in a, you know, a post-World War two Germany. So obviously a pretty difficult childhood. Germany was just devastated during the war. And yeah, and so he grew up in Germany without much. He wanted to be a pilot. He claims that he saw this this plane flying over his village, strafing his village like he.
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Cullen
Came two feet from his.
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Clark
House. Right. And the plane pulled up just two feet away from his house, which, you know, you know how we are. You know how we are. It's our memories of childhood are are sometimes maybe exaggerated a little bit in our minds over time. But this moment had a significant impact on him. And he decided that he wanted to come to the United States and and be a pilot.
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Clark
And that's what he did. After spending some time learning the trade, he became a blacksmith clockmaker. He actually came to the United States, joined the Air Force first. He came to New York, then signed up for the Air Force in New Jersey. And unfortunately, they didn't put him into a plane. They put him into the kitchen. So. Exactly.
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Clark
So he spent, I think, a couple of years of time doing his service for the Air Force, completed his contract two years totally in the kitchen. When he was done with that obligation, he moved to California and then joined the Navy. And he actually did get to fly in the Navy. And he did so in combat in Vietnam, where he was unfortunately shot down, held as a P.O.W. for about six months, spent about 23 days on the run after he successfully escaped.
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Clark
I think it was a second try. We'll get into that. But then then this film was made in 97, sadly. And we're going to talk about it, too, because there's actually a couple slightly different versions of this film. And in one of those films, there's a postscript unfortunately, Dengler was diagnosed with and what is ALS? ALS and which is a degenerative.
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Cullen
Brain disease.
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Clark
And yeah, a neurological disorder. And sadly, on February 7th, 2001, he committed suicide. And so the funeral, he was laid to rest in Arlington Cemetery with full honors. And that part of that service is in a as a postscript in one of the versions of the film. Yeah. So there's.
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Cullen
Of course, the film released in in.
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Clark
97, 90.
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Cullen
Seven, which was before his death that would have been added on after.
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Clark
Added on. And it's a.
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Cullen
Which is also another interesting thing to kind of mention that his health must have deteriorated really quickly because the film was shot 97, 96, I assume.
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Clark
Yeah, he didn't.
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Cullen
And by 2001 he was in a wheelchair.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
So clearly his health kind of rapidly deteriorated after the film.
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Clark
Which is. Yeah, unfortunate. And I don't you know, I'm not sure I can only speculate. I don't know if he had any kind of inkling or symptoms of this disease when he was shooting this film with her. So I guess maybe that was an impetus to get the film made that maybe he knew he didn't have much time.
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Clark
I'm not sure. But certainly that postscript and this knowledge of his being diagnosed with a terminal illness and then killing himself definitely gives a different gravity and more gravity to that quote for sure. But but yeah, so there's a little bit of background with that and and like Colin says, we start off with this quote that's actually a real quote, which.
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Cullen
Is the quote.
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Clark
And we find ourselves in a tattoo parlor. It's like, yeah.
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Cullen
So this is.
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Clark
Yeah, I love it.
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Cullen
It's weirdly related as we sort of discussed briefly before that. So of course, the quote is about, you know, men seeking death and not being able to get it and stuff, which obviously.
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Clark
It's about the 80% for.
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Cullen
When you're in the prisoner of war camp and wanting to die, but you're not dying. But then, you know, we immediately come to this tattoo parlor, which at first you're kind of like, what's going on?
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Clark
Yeah, kind of a non sequitur, just but.
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Cullen
It's but it's Dieter is describing this hallucination that he had of what I think is supposed to sort of almost be like the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which is similar to his message of, you know, the Revelation nine six and he's talking about he's kind of giving the like it's almost it's sort of comes off comedically because he's almost like giving this tattoo artist notes on what it should look like because he saw it in real life.
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Cullen
Right. And so he's like talking about this mythical like these mythical being of, you know, that wasn't what they looked like. They looked like different than that. And he's kind of describing, oh, no, no. They came out of like, whatever, trees versus clouds or so. It's kind of a funny little bit.
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Clark
In a way. Yeah.
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Cullen
It's a great way to introduce you to Dieter, though, because he is he's like kind of a quirky person. Like, he's.
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Clark
Definitely a working person and he definitely has kind of a sense of humor about it. Yeah. Especially considering the topic, you know, the subject matter. And you know, it's interesting that you mention it because I think throughout the film, you know, I almost wonder, you know, how much different this the subject matter would have been had, you know, Dieter had been a different kind of personality.
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Clark
I mean, it's.
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Cullen
Or how different he'd have been if he wasn't. He hadn't gone through it. Right.
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Clark
Sure. Sure. It's just I almost wonder if if this would have just been overwhelming had he also been kind of darker or, you know, presented this in a much more somber way? It's almost kind of the the matter of fact factness or even sometimes the lightness with which he tells a lot of his stories almost maybe makes it bearable to listen to because a lot of it is so graphic.
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Cullen
And I would I would I would gander that he or dander or a little choice or, you know, an inference that perhaps the way that he talks about it is his own coping mechanism to be able to talk about it matter. Because I know that that sort of a thing in a lot of like format post-traumatic psychological disorders is that people will talk about them just as though they are somewhat removed.
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Cullen
That they don't. Exactly. They're almost like going through like a diagnosis, like, okay. And then they put. Right, you know, they did this to me, then they did this to me, then they did to me. They came over here to this. And it's sort of less emotionally. It's just too.
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Clark
Much. It's too much.
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Cullen
I agree that had he had somebody else been the subject of this movie about which like this similar subject matter, I've been, you know, kind of taken, I'd be curious to know how depressing it is. It's not a very depressing. Like it's not.
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Clark
No, it's dark. And the subject.
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Cullen
Matter is it's not really that depressing or dark of a movie.
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Clark
And so much of that rest on, you know, the editor is and I'm going to call it a performance, if you will, because we're going to get into this as we get through more of the movie. But I mean, he was definitely coached and rehearsed by Herzog. And, you know, even some of these scenarios were entirely manufactured by Herzog.
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Clark
So I'm definitely going to go ahead. I'm going to call it a performance. But but yeah, if there would have been a radically different type of performance, you know, if quote unquote, like if they would have been really reaching to pull the heartstrings, if they would have been on it, I think it would have probably been an unbearable film to watch, frankly.
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Clark
And so I think a lot of that is owed to Dieter's performance. And, you know, speaking of which, you know, it's it's we're then we kind of jump into Dieter driving to his home. Yeah. And and and he's we have this little moment in the car He's in this beautiful it looks like maybe a forties, maybe like mid to late forties or early fifties automobile Not an expert on that era of cars but you know, he's driving down the road in California and he talks about how he can still hear the voices of his dead friends on occasion in his head.
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Clark
And and I think he's he talks about how he can still hear like one of the men that he was in, one of the P.O.W. camps with talking about how he is so cold and that he keeps the convertible top up on his car even when it's nice outside because he's kind of haunted by this. There's voices of being cold, of his friends being, Yeah.
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Cullen
Or we'll put the air conditioning or the heat on if it's if it's like 100 degrees out.
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Clark
Right. And it makes me and I wonder because, you know, we jump from that to Dieter at his house. He's coming home and we have this this kind of the scene here where Dieter is opening and closing the doors of his car. He's opening and closing the door of his house. And we walk into his house and right in the walkway, the entrance way there, there are all of these paintings of open doors and Herzog tells us that, you know, actually, Dieter tells us himself that it's important to him.
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Clark
It's like that to know that he can open and close a door is something that most people take for granted. But if you've ever been a prisoner like he was, you know, the fact that he can open and close a door at will is so important to him that he constantly is doing this as he goes through life.
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Clark
And of course, we know because Herzog's told us that, guess what? That's totally manufactured.
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Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. And Dieter also say that it was.
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Clark
Yeah, they say that.
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Cullen
You know, that the paintings were just paintings.
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Clark
Or the paintings were just like he found them in a thrift store. And, you know, of course it's like, you know, you and I will never know for sure exactly how the creative decisions kind of came to be. But I can also almost imagine. Right. Just like hypothesize for a second, you know, Herzog stair, he comes into Dieter's house.
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Clark
He's kind of looking around right here, We've all done this. You're on location. You're looking for, you know, where are some hooks that I can kind of, you know, hook into this story? What you know, what's jumping out at me? And I could just imagine Herzog goes into his house and immediately he's confronted with this series of of, quite frankly, gaudy, you know, paintings.
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Clark
Yeah, exactly. Nice looking paint, almost.
00:13:08:15 - 00:13:10:12
Cullen
Look, pastel pastel and.
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Clark
And a bit amateurish. Yeah. Yeah. I can totally imagine those being at a thrift store, you know? But, hey, I've got my own fair share of thrift store art in the house, so.
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Cullen
Oh, that's.
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Clark
Great.
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Cullen
That's great. Places to.
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Clark
Go first. Sure. But, you know, I can just imagine Herzog is like, Oh, I've got it. You know, you should be doing this because you've got the great accent. But it's like, you know. Oh, yeah. Okay. Whoa. You had why do you have Herzog's? Like, why do you have all these paintings of doors on your wall? Oh, because I just found them at a thrift store.
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Clark
They were cheap. No, I've got a better idea. Yeah.
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Cullen
Do you think that it's because you know. Right.
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Clark
Right. It's like. Oh, it's because the open door, like, has. So, you know, it symbolizes so much for you that you're now free. And, you know, you had your freedom taken away once and now you're free. But I mean, it's funny because, you know, if you look at this like, you know, in hindsight now that this was a manufactured moment, it's almost kind of funny in a way, because, you know, you know, when when deer pulls up in the car.
00:14:05:03 - 00:14:21:23
Clark
Right. He gets out of his of the driver's side, which is the car, the side of the car that's furthest away from camera. He gets out of the car and he doesn't have to open and close his door a bunch of times, like someone with OCD, would he? Not a problem. He gets out, close the door, he walks around the car and it's the passenger side door.
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Clark
The door that is actually, you know, facing camera. It's like it's a performance. You know, he opens and closes that door. He just got out of the car. He didn't do anything to his door. But he has to do this door. And it's like you can tell it's like it's a performance for the camera.
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Cullen
And the moment when he when he goes in and out, he opens the door a few times and he walks into his house and closes it. It's it's sort of funny. It almost seems like he's closing the door and like being like, All right, bye, guys. Because then he comes back and opens it and sort of comes out like, Isn't that great?
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Cullen
Isn't that wonderful? It would look weird to other people, but I love it. And it's like it's very much. But I also can see dangling like just just judging off his personality that I feel like Herzog and Daniel, I really got along in the way that Dingler was probably like, Oh, that's a great idea. Like, I bet.
00:15:02:18 - 00:15:03:12
Clark
I bet. I mean.
00:15:03:18 - 00:15:10:01
Cullen
You know, she shows a lot of enthusiasm in the way that he's like doing little bits that they're kind of coming up with. I mean, he.
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Clark
Definitely does not seem like a you know, he doesn't seem like that he he definitely seems like he's in it. You know, he's here. He's like it's not a reticent kind of performance. I mean, I feel like he really is there and wants to do this. And I do get a sense that he I mean, because think about the sense of the sense of kind of play that you would have to have to do a lot of these things.
00:15:31:09 - 00:15:49:12
Clark
I mean, later in the film, we'll talk about it. But, you know, Dieter is actually taken back by Herzog to Vietnam and Thailand, and he's put in places that very closely represent these very traumatic moments in his life. And, you know, Herzog goes and hires locals to to kind of pose.
00:15:49:13 - 00:15:50:08
Cullen
For the show.
00:15:50:08 - 00:16:05:17
Clark
Replay some of these scenes. And, you know, I mean, you definitely you've got to give it to Dieter. He's definitely open to this experience. And he's clearly got a sense of kind of I get that in the best phrase. I can kind of use it like a sense of play, right? A willingness to be a part of this.
00:16:05:17 - 00:16:22:15
Clark
And so, of course, it's one of those things I'd love to be there. And, you know, I would have loved to have kind of seen how did Herzog, you know, gain Dieter's trust? How did he work with him as a as a person to kind of understand, you know, Herzog is always talking about, you know, how vital it is to understand the hearts of men.
00:16:23:15 - 00:16:43:21
Cullen
Of course. I mean, interestingly enough, clearly to Dieter did not fear death when he returned because he became a test pilot and survived like four subsequent subsequent crashes. Right. Well, so it's amazing. It's yeah, it's one of those things to me where it's like it almost perhaps in an odd way and in kind of an inverse way that happens to a lot of people that have really traumatic, especially wartime experiences.
00:16:44:07 - 00:17:03:22
Cullen
It almost had a freeing sense for him night where he almost like was removed from the sense of fear of death and removed from the sense of like constraint in his life. And and very much at least again, the impression that I get from him is that he kind of opened up and decided to kind of live a looser life afterwards in a in a good way.
00:17:03:22 - 00:17:06:07
Cullen
And yeah, which I think is really interesting.
00:17:06:07 - 00:17:08:00
Clark
I also lived a full life, I think.
00:17:08:02 - 00:17:09:00
Cullen
Yeah, exactly.
00:17:09:00 - 00:17:27:23
Clark
But yeah, yeah. So it's Herzog really taps into that I think a lot, even though a lot of this is coached, a lot of this is manufactured and kind of put together by Herzog at least at least I feel if if it isn't representative of Dieter's actual personality, well, then the character they created together really works for me.
00:17:27:23 - 00:17:38:06
Clark
But I mean, I feel a strong sense of personality and a sense of understanding. Dieter And in an important way, his personality and makeup definitely comes across to me in this film.
00:17:38:06 - 00:17:56:08
Cullen
And perhaps the most, you know, one of the more real moments of the house thing is showing his food supplies, which would make sense, is kind of like a and he almost again, he sort of almost pokes fun at as well like he's not he does some doomsday prepper where he's like, I'm going to need this in four years when the Russians take over, it just kind of says like, I would I just sleep better knowing it's down there.
00:17:56:08 - 00:18:04:19
Cullen
I'll probably never have to use it in my life. And it's it's very you know, he's very laid back about that. He's got these again. That's kind of why I use the term quirky, because he's got these like quirks to him that.
00:18:05:02 - 00:18:05:19
Clark
But he's really.
00:18:05:19 - 00:18:07:19
Cullen
Interesting, but he's very much self-aware.
00:18:07:19 - 00:18:34:17
Clark
Of them. He is. He is. I just want to point something out to it. I have to. I have to because it and it says by all means. I mean, it's easy for people. You're on camera. You know, you kind of misspeak, but it's just a fun, tiny little tidbit that I want to talk about in that where we're going to Deena's house, which is interesting already because it's very casual and Herzog is just you know, Dieter's kind of leading Herzog around the room with the camera and just kind of talking about his home.
00:18:34:17 - 00:18:43:13
Clark
And we're kind of checking it out. It's very casual. But he opens up the back door and we see his porch at the back and there's this model of a an airplane.
00:18:43:13 - 00:18:44:06
Cullen
Yeah, quite a large.
00:18:44:06 - 00:19:07:08
Clark
Model, too. Why don't we have quite a large models, an airplane that's out there kind of standing on a post out in his backyard. And it's interesting that Dieter Mis categorizes the plane. He calls it a P-51 Spitfire. Yeah. And and of course, there is not a P-51 Spitfire. There was a P-51 Mustang that was made by the United States and there was a Spitfire, which was a British plane.
00:19:07:08 - 00:19:24:00
Clark
Both were both were World War Two fighters. But as you correctly noticed, it's actually a spitfire. It's a model spitfire, but even more so, you notice that the credits handle this in a really if a sometimes I'm sorry, the title. Yeah. Tell us about that. So.
00:19:24:00 - 00:19:43:21
Cullen
So the subtitles say so. It was one of the things that I kind of noticed that he had misspoken, that it sounded like I couldn't. It's hard to catch, but he sort of says, like, you know, it's a P-51 Spitfire, and he sort of corrects himself quickly. But it sounds like he's saying P-51. But in the the subtitles, it says B 51, which was an experimental bomber that never came to fruition.
00:19:43:21 - 00:20:03:14
Cullen
Right. But of course, B, Standing for bomber. But yeah, so it's neither a P-51 Mustang nor a B 51. But the subtitles seem to reference that as B, but the subtitles also say B 51 and then muss and dot, dot, dot spitfire. So clearly this is whoever was doing the subtitles noted that he had sort of acted himself there.
00:20:03:14 - 00:20:05:13
Cullen
But I just think it's an interesting.
00:20:05:13 - 00:20:06:14
Clark
Bit, just a tiny.
00:20:06:14 - 00:20:13:11
Cullen
Thing. They also didn't get it right either. It's they said B 51 when it's very much, you know, if it was a mustang, it would be a P-51.
00:20:13:19 - 00:20:26:16
Clark
So it's just interesting that, of course, it doesn't have any it's it's extremely trivial, but it's just kind of fun when you're analyzing these films and you're kind of a fan of them. You know, some people out there listening are probably like, okay, guys, you're getting way too in the weeds right now. And it's like, okay, okay, okay.
00:20:26:16 - 00:20:46:03
Clark
I admit. But hey, we can do that once in a while. We don't do it very often, but just this once. Yeah. And then, I mean, as we're taking to the film here too, you know, we look and we get to learn a little bit more about Dieter and his childhood, and I think this is probably more biographical than I think I've seen, you know, Herzog handle a lot of things.
00:20:46:05 - 00:20:49:23
Cullen
Yeah, more biographical than the The Grizzly Man movie that we write.
00:20:50:03 - 00:21:13:12
Clark
Definitely more by now. I mean, he does include, you know, biographical information that Bruce Chatwin, like you said, Grizzly Man. And so I think, you know, to the extent he I think he's he's touching on this maybe more this time than in some other films because you and you brought this up. And it's a great point. There are a lot of parallels between Dieter and Herzog.
00:21:13:12 - 00:21:32:16
Clark
And so, you know, maybe to some extent, Herzog's kind of coming back to his to Dieter's childhood a little bit more because there's there's these parallels that are probably very important to Herzog. I mean, they both grew up in Germany, post-World War two, Germany immediately after the war. So obviously that that's going to have a profound impact and shape your life.
00:21:33:16 - 00:21:39:20
Cullen
So and they both sort of came to this realization of what they wanted to do late in their teens or in their childhoods.
00:21:39:23 - 00:21:41:08
Clark
But with a burning passion.
00:21:41:08 - 00:21:53:11
Cullen
But like yeah, with a. BR Exactly. With kind of this destiny and destiny almost. Yeah. Idea of it where it's like, this is what I have to do it also. I mean they go into some really interesting elements about, you know, Dengler, whose father was killed in the war.
00:21:54:00 - 00:21:54:18
Clark
Right? Which comes.
00:21:54:18 - 00:21:55:05
Cullen
Back to the.
00:21:55:08 - 00:21:56:23
Clark
Important, right? I mean this.
00:21:57:05 - 00:21:58:03
Cullen
Yeah, that comes up later.
00:21:58:03 - 00:22:16:12
Clark
Yeah, comes up later. We can talk about that a little bit. I mean, it's we've already described kind of the story that Dieter tells about, you know, watching the pilot strafe his village, wanting to be a pilot. But, yeah, I mean, he tells the story about how his I think it was his was it his father or grandfather?
00:22:16:12 - 00:22:18:02
Clark
Dieter's that was.
00:22:18:04 - 00:22:20:01
Cullen
Yeah. So there's great his grandfather was.
00:22:20:01 - 00:22:20:12
Clark
The only.
00:22:20:12 - 00:22:57:03
Cullen
Person in his town to refuse to vote for Hitler in 1934. Right. Which is interesting because he then he tells a story about his grandfather being kind of paraded around the town and forced into labor. Yeah. Basically ostracized from his community. And and so he describes and of course, this is later in the movie post Dieter's capture, but he describes this similarity between how he was paraded through the jungle and how he was sort of this objector to this the North Vietnamese said if you denounce the American, you know, military action in Vietnam, then I guess they never said they'll let him go.
00:22:57:03 - 00:22:57:15
Cullen
But they basically.
00:22:57:15 - 00:22:58:14
Clark
Just they were trying to.
00:22:58:14 - 00:22:59:00
Cullen
Force.
00:22:59:07 - 00:22:59:19
Clark
Thing. Right.
00:23:00:17 - 00:23:09:13
Cullen
And he refused. And he sort of he sort of cites his grandfather's refusal to vote for Hitler as the you know, if I can do that, I can do this kind of thing.
00:23:09:13 - 00:23:16:06
Clark
Yeah, that gave him strength. So let's just say Herzog does a good job of setting up these biographical details earlier in the film.
00:23:16:06 - 00:23:17:07
Cullen
Yeah. These stories that kind.
00:23:17:07 - 00:23:37:18
Clark
Of pay them off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an interesting thing too. I you know, we've talked about, you know, with with Bruce Chatwin and some of these other films where Herzog puts himself on camera. Where Herzog is is more apparent in the interviews. We don't see any of that here at all. No. Which is more indicative of Herzog's earlier films.
00:23:37:18 - 00:24:01:09
Clark
I think it's not until later that we see him. Well, that's not true. I mean, we see him in in some films being on camera a lot, but in this film, he's not. But he he doesn't ask a lot of direct questions. There's not a lot of air viewing going on. Not too much. But but there is a interesting moment here where Herzog asks Dieter when we're still in his home, You know, he says, What does it mean to be a war hero?
00:24:01:09 - 00:24:24:11
Clark
He doesn't even ask, Art, do you think you are? But he says, What does it mean to be a war hero? And Dieter says, only the dead are heroes. I'm definitely not a hero. So it's just one of the rare moments where we kind of hear Herzog outside of narration, actually, in the film. Yeah, I just noticed that stood out to me that there wasn't a matter of fact, there's not a lot of narration for her from Herzog here either.
00:24:24:18 - 00:24:27:14
Clark
There's a lot more of Dier's voice.
00:24:27:14 - 00:24:48:18
Cullen
Well, Dina's a very interesting storyteller, and so that could perhaps be the reason that yeah, again, Dieter, I almost note similarities in my mind between our movie last week, My Best Fiend, and this where it's like very much Herzog Sort of two. And perhaps the reason that they were attracted together to each other and, you know, were were great working partners.
00:24:48:18 - 00:24:53:01
Cullen
Dieter and Herzog not partners beyond the film, but I mean, in the.
00:24:53:01 - 00:24:54:00
Clark
Story context.
00:24:54:15 - 00:25:15:01
Cullen
Was because they tell stories in very similar ways. It's like they almost tell. And of course, plenty of that is likely because of the fact that Herzog was very much there to coach. And, you know, give notes on how he wanted these stories to be delivered to Dengler down to the point where at one point he makes them do like six different takes of the same story to get him right.
00:25:15:01 - 00:25:16:06
Cullen
Basically, say, the most.
00:25:16:22 - 00:25:17:09
Clark
Bookish.
00:25:17:10 - 00:25:41:08
Cullen
Borg boiled down efficient story. But but even then, you know there's elements of just like one anglers walking around his house telling these stories or when he's walking around. Now later in the film that there's very much I do see a similarity between Herzog and Dengler just style of of storytelling and this like very almost specific anecdotal kind of style of like it's not the bigger picture that matters.
00:25:41:08 - 00:25:46:17
Cullen
It's the specific little elements of the story that kind of build up. This bigger picture, which I found was really interesting.
00:25:46:19 - 00:26:10:20
Clark
Agreed. And I'm so curious and so curious, you know, and of course, we'll never know exactly. I mean, there are and well, there are definitely there are scenes in this film where Herzog has very explicitly shared with us over the years that it was either heavily coached or maybe partially scripted or entirely manufactured. I mean, the the doors we discussed were manufactured.
00:26:10:20 - 00:26:27:22
Clark
There's a scene in the middle of the film where Dieter is in like this airfield or like a museum, and there's a really interesting scene. And he's he comes under this plane and there's like a mannequin in a flight.
00:26:28:05 - 00:26:28:15
Cullen
In the.
00:26:28:15 - 00:26:29:15
Clark
Air, which was the.
00:26:29:16 - 00:26:30:07
Cullen
Flight training.
00:26:30:07 - 00:26:46:04
Clark
COMMON Right. You go to these museums and they have the planes and then they have the flight suit that would have been worn with that plane on a mannequin. So you can get a sense of what that would have been like. And, you know, Dieter's describing the crash, which is really compelling, and he's talking about how, you know, he didn't have time to be scared.
00:26:46:04 - 00:27:01:22
Clark
It was only afterwards that you could be scared. He's talking about this feeling of death being imminent and kind of floating and Herzog cuts to these jellyfish floating around. So it's like even in this film, he's he, like, found a way to work in animals, you know? Yeah.
00:27:02:04 - 00:27:03:03
Cullen
Yeah. No, exactly.
00:27:03:03 - 00:27:09:12
Clark
And it's like, very reminiscent of of the fish. Yeah. In. Oh, romance. Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:09:16 - 00:27:18:06
Cullen
It's a really I mean again that was the through line that I saw very similar was the family romance moment when he's looking at the, the aquarium of the robotic fish.
00:27:18:06 - 00:27:43:13
Clark
But this whole story apparently was was kind of manufactured, you know. Yeah. I mean Herzog was very much working toward a specific scene here, working toward being able to fit this footage in with the deli jellyfish and this kind of analogy that the symbolism he was drawing to this feeling of like floating and death being imminent and kind of this, you know, removal from, you know, almost like this spirit leaving the body or something.
00:27:43:13 - 00:27:59:03
Cullen
And perhaps, you know, we'll get into it, we'll get into music in a little bit. But there's, you know, very beautiful music here, very orchestral, which kind of contrasts with the watch that a lot of the other music in the movie of of there's like 60 different genres of music in this film, which I love.
00:27:59:06 - 00:28:00:04
Clark
Yeah. I mean of course at.
00:28:00:05 - 00:28:19:04
Cullen
This moment is kind of is, is very much like accented by this beautiful. Yeah. Orchestral kind of almost hymn sounding music. Right. We see the jellyfish floating around in there and I mean, it's actually very effective because I'm sitting there watching it. I was like, I could see death being like this, like feeling like you're floating. And I think of jellyfish at piece.
00:28:19:04 - 00:28:19:18
Cullen
That would be.
00:28:19:22 - 00:28:35:18
Clark
It's it's really quite wonderful. I mean, I think that's one of the things that Herzog again, it's one of Herzog's great strengths. I feel like, you know he and you're right, the music that he chooses in this film, most of it, there's a little bit that I felt like I was surprised about that felt a bit different from Herzog.
00:28:36:07 - 00:28:54:07
Clark
But I think by and large, it's music that we've kind of kind of come to know it, to be in a Herzog film. But I think that, you know, I just love his a lot of times symbolism or analogies or drawn metaphors are drawn in films that are very on the nose. They're very you know, it's like, oh, you know, I knew this was coming.
00:28:54:07 - 00:29:13:09
Clark
I knew this was coming and I loved this kind of thing because it's like I would have never dreamed in a million years. You know it that, you know, you've got this pilot, this P.O.W., talking about what it was like to have a near-death experience. And then we cut to jellyfish. It's like, that's I love this. And it makes me feel things that I just, you know, I wouldn't Yeah.
00:29:14:12 - 00:29:33:06
Cullen
Yeah. If this was like, a History Channel bio on on an angler, you would never you would never experience that. And I think that that is as we are a Herzog podcast, I think it's kind of important sometimes just stop and note why his movies are so special. Yes. And this is one of those stories that I think really kind of exemplifies that is Absolutely.
00:29:33:06 - 00:29:49:20
Cullen
I know, again, watching this movie and seeing that, you know, it's like these these empathetic moments that just put you right into the shoes of the character beyond just showing you footage of of, you know, which there isn't this movie of napalm blowing up or whatever. Right? There's this there's these beautiful moments where it's like, I've.
00:29:50:09 - 00:29:52:12
Clark
Surreal shows, the existential.
00:29:52:12 - 00:30:10:06
Cullen
Herzog to go from, you know, again, knowing that the scene was manufactured shows the genius of Herzog to be talking with someone like Dingler who would have described, I'm sure it being like, you know, he probably just said it felt like I was floating. You know, it felt like I was when I was about to die. It felt like, you know, I wasn't scared.
00:30:10:06 - 00:30:16:14
Cullen
It felt like I was at peace. And Herzog probably made that connection and went, Why don't we get you in front of the jellyfish?
00:30:16:14 - 00:30:28:14
Clark
You know, I think I mean, I, I think, you know, I've read that this actually the majority of this entire section was was the deer was pushed into describing it this way.
00:30:28:21 - 00:30:29:18
Cullen
So I think.
00:30:29:18 - 00:30:44:21
Clark
Yeah, yeah. I think even further than Herzog saying, oh, wait, you know, I really like your description of of what death kind of imminent death felt like, you know, in the editing room. And he's like, oh, jellyfish. I think even further. I think when he was working, that's what I my understanding of yes.
00:30:44:21 - 00:30:45:16
Cullen
I be could be.
00:30:45:18 - 00:30:55:07
Clark
But I the my understanding was that this was actually a moment when, you know, Herzog really kind of pushed Dieter in a in a specific direction to describe this a certain way.
00:30:55:16 - 00:31:11:11
Cullen
So which again makes a lot of sense because I at the beginning was going to describe it slipped my mind, but I was going to sort of describe the element of how this is one of the rare examples of Herzog taking, you know, the same subject matter and making a documentary and then a narrative picture about it. Right?
00:31:11:11 - 00:31:33:03
Cullen
But what I was going to say was in very much line with that Herzog talks about his documentaries, is that they're not documentaries. They're almost just different ways of telling that same story. Yes. And so I could see Herzog totally writing a script out about this, like kind of reading up, perhaps even before he and this is all conjecture, but perhaps before he met Dieter and sort of said, I really want this moment where he's crashing.
00:31:33:03 - 00:31:52:17
Cullen
And these you know, he relates to these jellyfish. I would also be curious actually, and this is something that, again, is totally just off the top of my head, but I'd be curious to know if Herzog actually was interested in making this a narrative film initially didn't have the funding for it, so he decided to make a documentary.
00:31:52:17 - 00:31:53:14
Clark
Food question.
00:31:53:14 - 00:32:04:11
Cullen
And then went on later on to make Rescue Dawn, which was the like, I wonder if Rescue Dawn was almost his original kind of focus or if it came up later after having done this movie and going, This would make a really interesting.
00:32:04:22 - 00:32:23:21
Clark
It's really yeah, I'll do some digging, I'll do some digging, you know, because next week we're going to do Rescue Dawn. And so I'll do some digging and see. And, you know, there may not be any information out there, but absolutely. I mean, it could be he was doing the work on this film and fell in love with this story so much that he decided he wanted to tell it in an in a narrative feature film manner as well.
00:32:24:11 - 00:32:41:08
Clark
Could be that he had that idea from the get go. Could be that it was years later. You know, he's made this film. He thought he was done telling the story and then, you know, it came to him after this, you know, maybe after a years passing. And he thought, wait a minute, you know, I still want to work with the story more and there's still more that I want to tell and who knows?
00:32:41:08 - 00:33:17:19
Clark
But clearly, I mean, clearly, you know, spending the time and the energy to create two feature length films about the same person, about the same subject, obviously had, you know, a significant impact on. HERZOG Yeah, Yeah. You know, so I think, you know, you talk about the Herzog's genius in documentary and using the, you know, the jellyfish, too, kind of as one way to illustrate that, I think another way and that I really love to see in his films and I think it is so effective and it's something that I am absolutely going to utilize more in my documentary filmmaking.
00:33:17:19 - 00:33:37:09
Clark
Is this it's it's like kind of I don't want to say it's not it's like the dramatic reenactments, but it's with the actual subjects. I love how he so, you know, throughout the film, Herzog is, you know, because they could have shot this anywhere. They could have shot this anywhere. He could have had Dieter in his living room.
00:33:37:09 - 00:33:47:18
Clark
He could have been talking heads. He could. But what does he do? He takes them back to Vietnam and they could have even just stop there, you know? Okay, we're back in Vietnam. Oh, that's you know, the whole.
00:33:47:18 - 00:33:49:11
Cullen
Thing could have been that bridge a little.
00:33:49:17 - 00:34:01:15
Clark
Right? It's like, yeah, let's just walk through the jungle and you can kind of show me like, Oh, this is. No, it's like he actually. Herzog hires local extras. I don't know if they were militia or just villagers, but I.
00:34:01:15 - 00:34:03:17
Cullen
Mean, he we don't know if those guns are real, that we.
00:34:03:17 - 00:34:23:17
Clark
Don't know if those guns are real. But I mean, you know, and we're actually in these villages that that completely work as mock ups or doubles for these prison camps. I mean, he's got Dieter bound and being marched through a jungle, you know, with a train of these militiamen.
00:34:23:17 - 00:34:28:17
Cullen
And this is really where you get the sense of Dieter's just kind of matter of fact retelling of these events.
00:34:28:17 - 00:34:46:01
Clark
Well, to even be able to go through it, I mean, it but it it's, you know, I mean, and Herzog, I mean, it's very much, you know, he's placing Dieter on the ground. He's like having Dieter illustrate show me how were you bound you know Yeah. And and you can really see how this affects Dieter in his storytelling.
00:34:46:01 - 00:34:48:06
Clark
I mean, probably along with, you know, the rehearsals.
00:34:48:06 - 00:35:09:14
Cullen
And and he says, you know, he even TV mentions the point when they're walking through the forest. He says, like you can see my back, but if you could see the front of me, you would see like total fear on my face. So it was almost like having these PTSD flashbacks from reenacting which. But again, that goes to it's such a testament of Dieter's character where he's still playing along, you know, that he's still he doesn't yell cut.
00:35:09:14 - 00:35:10:11
Cullen
He t.
00:35:10:20 - 00:35:11:03
Clark
Right.
00:35:11:04 - 00:35:21:00
Cullen
Works with Herzog through this stuff, which is really and he's sort of I think correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there is a little bit of a throwaway line where he says perhaps like this kind of help me to work through it or something.
00:35:21:09 - 00:35:22:22
Clark
I can't remember, but I feel.
00:35:22:22 - 00:35:36:13
Cullen
Like there's like a really small line somewhere where he just or not maybe not necessarily working through it, but he sort of I seem to remember there being some sort of like allusion to him saying that like, you know, perhaps this was this was a necessary. Was his face my demons?
00:35:36:13 - 00:35:55:08
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very possible. I mean, he does he's got he's got a cute little aside and I think that I'll describe here, you know he we're now we're we're in one of the camps or you know in a mock up we're in a village but we're Herzog is utilizing it to kind of represent the camp where he would have been.
00:35:56:03 - 00:36:15:06
Clark
And there's this this this fun moment where Dieter is telling a story about a villager trying to steal his wedding ring. He's been marched for a distance. And and now there's a man with a machete who's threatening to cut off his finger and steal his ring. And he's telling he's telling this story. And, you know, Herzog's got this extra in the background.
00:36:15:06 - 00:36:23:13
Clark
And it's interesting because this person doesn't have to be there. I don't know. And actually, quite frankly, I'm like, why is this person even there? You know, if you think about it, it's just.
00:36:23:14 - 00:36:24:15
Cullen
Sort of sitting beside him.
00:36:24:17 - 00:36:41:14
Clark
He's just kind of sitting there chilling. So so that in and of itself is kind of interesting. But what it elicits after he tells the story is that Dieter leans over, looks at this man, and says, Hey, it's just a movie. Don't worry about it. Yeah. And by the way, you've still got all of your fingers. Yeah.
00:36:41:14 - 00:36:55:15
Cullen
Because he sort of uses him to, like, mime the cutting off of the like, he kind of tugs the guy's hand at one point. Yeah, Yeah. But again, just like you said, when he says that to the guard or the man standing there, you know, you've got all your he almost it almost sounds like he's talking to himself like that.
00:36:55:15 - 00:37:11:12
Cullen
He was reliving this thing and sort of had to say to someone, It's just a movie. Don't worry. It makes me think of when, you know, when I was a kid, I was really scared of rollercoasters. And I didn't start loving rollercoasters until I went to a like a big theme park once with a friend who was even more scared of rollercoasters than I was.
00:37:11:15 - 00:37:13:06
Clark
Little Colin needs to fly.
00:37:13:10 - 00:37:14:14
Cullen
A little color needs to ride.
00:37:15:02 - 00:37:17:12
Clark
Needs to be. A little color needs to, right? Yeah.
00:37:17:16 - 00:37:30:03
Cullen
But no, it was. It was this. It was like I think that's sort of where I get this almost like this psychological kind of, again, coping with him, where he's almost saying to this other guy like, don't worry, it's okay. And he's almost.
00:37:30:10 - 00:37:31:14
Clark
Almost talking to himself.
00:37:31:14 - 00:37:50:10
Cullen
Projecting that to himself. But I think actually my favorite moment of that scene, though, is how it ends. How so? He says that to the guy and then the camera just sort of walks away and goes over to this man cooking in the corner, which is exactly as described in in Dieter Story, that there was a man cooking in the corner of this hut.
00:37:50:10 - 00:37:50:21
Clark
Yeah.
00:37:51:00 - 00:37:59:00
Cullen
And to me, there's nothing said about it like it doesn't he they don't go over and say that's what he looked like. It's just this man cooking the corn to me that it's such a brilliant way.
00:37:59:00 - 00:37:59:07
Clark
Yeah.
00:37:59:09 - 00:38:14:20
Cullen
Having that transition into like, now you're sitting there going, This is what he saw. You've gone from him rather than showing some sort of, like, stock photography of villages in Lahore back in the day, you just, you just get it there and you kind of go, Oh, wow, we're here and this.
00:38:14:20 - 00:38:16:02
Clark
Is we're here and this is.
00:38:16:08 - 00:38:30:15
Cullen
Yeah, really? And who knows? Again, I wouldn't be surprised if Herzog specifically said, Oh, I want someone cooking in that corner, or if it was just, you know, sometimes things like that just happened in there, those magical moments. Yeah, Yeah, but, but, but either way, it's no less effective either way.
00:38:30:15 - 00:38:57:18
Clark
And I agree, it's fantastic. And there are so many of these subtle and not so subtle, but I mean. Herzog Just that that he has manipulated so many of these aspects of how he's made this film and that you've gave you've given a great example, a seemingly small thing. But you're right, it I think it really brings the immediacy and the gravity of deer stories to life.
00:38:57:18 - 00:39:19:03
Clark
And it's a really powerful way to to use the visual and film. And I think a lot of times in documentaries, it's, you know, we don't see it done in this way, especially when we're talking about a historical thing. We're looking at historical footage or recreations or so this is. I feel like one of the many things that Herzog does somewhat uniquely.
00:39:19:03 - 00:39:29:13
Clark
I think some people are doing this more now, but just so exceptionally effective. And I love to see it. I love to see it. I'm going to steal more than a steal.
00:39:29:13 - 00:39:53:05
Cullen
Yeah. No, I feel it's yeah, it's incredible the way it's just an incredible way of storytelling and getting the audience engaged. Yeah, it reminds me, strangely enough, of Shoah, the documentary The Holocaust, which is it's famously uses no archival footage. And it's like sort of to me that that is such a brilliant way to yeah. To do these types of stories, which is without using archival footage, you're putting the piece.
00:39:53:07 - 00:39:54:23
Clark
Which Herzog does use here. I mean.
00:39:55:14 - 00:39:56:00
Cullen
Those are.
00:39:56:03 - 00:39:59:17
Clark
Footage, but, but it's, you know, he's using all the tools.
00:39:59:23 - 00:40:26:09
Cullen
And I would almost say that the the brunt of the storytelling aspects by Dieter are just Dieter speaking. Yeah. That the archival footage tends to be over kind of the bridges section of like the moments of yeah, here's now now here we here's where we are kind of thing in the story right. But then we get to the perhaps the darkest moment but again, not dealt with in some sort of like doom and gloom, you know Dieter trying to the camera kind of way.
00:40:26:09 - 00:40:42:14
Cullen
It's when they get to the camp again, matter of fact, goes through they're kind of at a mock up of what the camp would have look like. And they've got this hut that he describes them being tied down on the the the porch and that his feet are in the same device that their feet would have been in, where it's like they put their feet in this thing.
00:40:42:14 - 00:40:42:21
Clark
Yeah.
00:40:43:02 - 00:40:43:19
Cullen
It's kind of like.
00:40:43:23 - 00:40:44:13
Clark
Shackles.
00:40:44:18 - 00:41:00:07
Cullen
Off action, you know, wooden shackle type things. And and he describes, you know, the horrible, you know, inhumane conditions. One man holding his intestines and then another prisoner. I forgot this, but the guy with the rusty nail that was digging out.
00:41:00:15 - 00:41:01:06
Clark
Abscesses.
00:41:01:06 - 00:41:20:16
Cullen
From absence from his friends, you know, where his teeth used to be to disgusting, horrible, inhumane conditions that Dieter says that he was at first almost glad to be in because he didn't have to travel anymore. But then slowly realized that there was this, you know, the awful conditions of just people sitting on a porch for three days straight in their own.
00:41:20:16 - 00:41:21:10
Cullen
You know, he knew.
00:41:21:10 - 00:41:36:23
Clark
He would die. Yeah. I mean, he'd been through so much at this point, too. I mean, you know, by the time we get to this point, you know, he's been a prisoner. He tried to escape. He was recaptured when he finally had to find food. And he was captured at a watering hole. He was marched for a period of time and tortured.
00:41:37:06 - 00:41:51:01
Clark
Now he's back at another camp. And I mean, I think it's like clear to everybody at this time, probably, look, we're going to die if we stay here and we may die when we if we try to escape. But we're definitely going to die here, you know?
00:41:51:03 - 00:41:51:10
Cullen
Yeah.
00:41:52:18 - 00:42:06:00
Clark
And it's and but it's I these moments are so amazing. And then we kind of he tells the story there, you know, of of escaping and having to kill. I think he had to kill five guards.
00:42:06:18 - 00:42:11:02
Cullen
Because they Yeah, they, they basically use their meal time to break out and get guns and.
00:42:11:03 - 00:42:12:20
Clark
Yeah, they'll shoot as.
00:42:12:20 - 00:42:13:07
Cullen
Though they.
00:42:13:08 - 00:42:13:19
Clark
Know shoot.
00:42:13:19 - 00:42:16:01
Cullen
And that's, that's the important part. They couldn't find their shoes.
00:42:16:01 - 00:42:26:03
Clark
Couldn't find his shoes. But I just, I read the story of course and of itself is extraordinary. I mean it's very few people escaped alive from these kinds of situations. I mean, very, very well.
00:42:26:03 - 00:42:37:21
Cullen
Yeah, we I looked it up before and it was there was I think I think they said seven people or maybe just something so very, very small managed to actually escaped and only two survived.
00:42:38:00 - 00:42:39:02
Clark
So very except.
00:42:39:02 - 00:42:43:17
Cullen
Accepted Dieter and one tiny civilian actually. And that's not that's not justice events that's.
00:42:44:00 - 00:42:44:06
Clark
In the.
00:42:44:06 - 00:42:48:21
Cullen
Entirety of the war. Yeah. The only two people survived escape from these.
00:42:49:01 - 00:43:11:07
Clark
So clearly an exceptional story. But in just harrowing he talks about how you know Dieter talks about escaping with his friend Duane, somebody that he had grown closer to than anybody else in his life. To that point, having gone through all of this together. And and they he it's just I mean, extraordinary. I know that I've seen Rescue Dawn, so I know some of this is in there.
00:43:11:07 - 00:43:28:19
Clark
But and well, we'll cover that in our next episode. But how his friend unfortunately was was murdered while he while they were on their way out to escape by by a villager. And the fact that Dieter made it and this is this was an interesting set up, too. I don't I hardly know what to think of this. In some ways.
00:43:29:00 - 00:43:51:04
Clark
I want to talk with you about it, you know, so so Dieter is talking about how he finally escaped, how he is picked up by Eugene Dietrich, who is a another pilot. And we're here now at a reunion that Herzog has staged with Eugene and Dieter. They're in this, like, dining room.
00:43:51:10 - 00:43:53:01
Cullen
Which must be Dietrich's.
00:43:53:01 - 00:43:56:14
Clark
I thought, I don't know. Don't know is very fancy.
00:43:56:14 - 00:43:57:23
Cullen
Like it. They've got like a butler there.
00:43:57:23 - 00:44:07:17
Clark
It's really fancy. It's a really fancy house. And there's this huge turkey, this huge, like, perfectly cooked turkey. I'm talking like a £15 turkey, right.
00:44:07:22 - 00:44:08:16
Cullen
For the two of them.
00:44:08:20 - 00:44:10:01
Clark
There, too. It's just those.
00:44:10:01 - 00:44:11:06
Cullen
Seemingly for the two of them. Yeah.
00:44:11:06 - 00:44:20:02
Clark
Dieter Dieter is in black tie. He is in black tie. Dietrich is in a suit. I think he's got.
00:44:20:02 - 00:44:21:12
Cullen
Like a pipe and he's got a yeah, it's.
00:44:21:12 - 00:44:21:16
Clark
Going to.
00:44:22:01 - 00:44:23:15
Cullen
Be a very nice white German.
00:44:23:23 - 00:44:43:06
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and his jacket and, and supposedly this is the first time that they've seen each other in a long time. So Herzog has staged this. But it's, it's surreal. It's and I and I love it. I said I don't know what to kind of think about it in some ways, but it just works. It somehow it works, you know?
00:44:43:07 - 00:44:46:21
Clark
Yeah. When you break it down kind of analytically, you're like, Wait a minute.
00:44:47:04 - 00:44:48:02
Cullen
That sounds weird.
00:44:48:02 - 00:45:10:05
Clark
This is just weird. Why does what does any of this have to do with anything? But then when you kind of think about it, I mean, you know, sitting down to share a meal, Thanksgiving is about gratitude and to actually really kind of make sense in a way. Yes, it's a bit surreal, but it actually really works. And I just love this kind of creativity.
00:45:10:05 - 00:45:12:19
Clark
But I just when I first saw it, I was like, what?
00:45:14:05 - 00:45:27:10
Cullen
Yeah, it's it's really a bizarre. And again, I think the more bizarre moment is just that it's the two of them with this like this big, huge tentacles in this huge turkey, that theater. Right. But that's where all the production budget went.
00:45:27:10 - 00:45:28:19
Clark
But there was Yeah, yeah.
00:45:28:21 - 00:45:29:18
Cullen
That single turkey.
00:45:30:00 - 00:46:06:10
Clark
But this I mean all of these things, you know, it's like there's so much of these interesting we've got the jellyfish scene with Yeah, let's see we have a lot of the you know the dieter being coached and menu factory to these stories. But we've talked about this so many times, the difference between fact and truth truth. And I think when we get through to the end of this film, there is I think the film was very successful at at illustrating some truths about Peter and humanity as opposed to just this biographical kind of list of facts.
00:46:06:15 - 00:46:23:06
Cullen
And again, know that's what's so, so like again, we can go back to the moment where it's the six takes of the description of Duane's death. Yeah. And how he kind of describes Herzog describes actually in the Masterclass, how he was going on about like these specific points of like and then he hid behind his first.
00:46:23:06 - 00:46:24:11
Clark
Tape was like 30 minutes.
00:46:24:11 - 00:46:37:18
Cullen
Yeah, yeah. And then he was like and then he was talking about how he jumped from Bush to Bush to get away. And then he was like, No, no, just tell. But I think one of the points that Herzog is in the Masterclass kind of says that he wanted in there was about the the shoe. The one sole.
00:46:37:18 - 00:46:38:13
Clark
Of that was that he.
00:46:38:13 - 00:46:42:05
Cullen
Was what Herzog actually specifically told him. Like, I want that to.
00:46:42:05 - 00:46:42:12
Clark
Be got to.
00:46:42:12 - 00:47:04:12
Cullen
Focus on centerpiece was that you guys were swapping this single sole of a shoe back and forth and that, you know, perhaps this goes into this idea of like the machinations that after his friend was killed, that he kind of went robotic and that survival was the greatest pain. So Duane was killed and that he Dieter that he didn't even remember grabbing the sole of the shoe off of his foot.
00:47:05:04 - 00:47:32:11
Cullen
But then suddenly, while he was running, he realized it just he grabbed it and that was like this, this, that, that in that exact moment it was like a split second thing where his brain stopped feeling emotion. It stopped feeling worry or fear or pain or whatever. And he just became this this machine designed to survive until he got out, which I think is really quite something, because that also to me alludes to the fact that that was also the moment where he was probably most acceptance of his death, probably that he was walking along with this bear or and he describes the.
00:47:32:22 - 00:47:34:01
Clark
Bear to him.
00:47:34:01 - 00:47:54:05
Cullen
Represents, you know, he says that this bear represented death and that in that moment much you know, very so similar to the jellyfish kind of description that I almost confused the two, but that he describes that he says this bear was like my only friend and that in that moment he didn't see death as something evil or bad, that he saw death as this kind of all accepting.
00:47:54:14 - 00:47:58:00
Clark
Like it was the. Yeah. The only thing he had left. Yes. This. Yeah.
00:47:58:09 - 00:48:02:14
Cullen
And so I find that really and that this bear was you know he knew that this bear was waiting for him to die. But and.
00:48:02:14 - 00:48:03:12
Clark
Again, I just.
00:48:03:12 - 00:48:04:12
Cullen
One kept him going.
00:48:04:16 - 00:48:05:03
Clark
I just.
00:48:05:03 - 00:48:05:16
Cullen
Oh yeah.
00:48:05:21 - 00:48:22:23
Clark
I just wonder, you know, was that Herzog, was that Dieter? And again, you know, it doesn't matter ultimately. And the reason I you know, I kind of always have these moments where we talk about them here, where I wonder, you know, is this dieter? Was this Herzog, whatever the film may be, I'm wondering now, of course, in reality, when I'm watching these films, I don't care.
00:48:23:08 - 00:48:33:16
Clark
You know, I don't care if this is an actual event that occurred to Dieter or if it was something that they made up together, or if it's something that Herzog made up entirely on his own, it doesn't matter to me at all.
00:48:33:18 - 00:48:44:06
Cullen
To me, it's the same as as as changing things in a narrative film that is based on truth where it's like or the more efficient and more pertinent ways to telling the story that get the point across.
00:48:44:10 - 00:48:45:00
Clark
Absolutely.
00:48:45:07 - 00:48:58:00
Cullen
You know, or like perhaps, you know, perhaps there was not really any bear, but that that included the inclusivity or the inclusion of that bear as this symbol of death is exactly that. It's a symbol of death.
00:48:58:00 - 00:48:59:00
Clark
Right. And in effect.
00:48:59:00 - 00:49:22:17
Cullen
It's almost a personification or I guess, an animal fixation of some of the feelings that the physical manifestation of the feelings that Dieter is feeling. And so I think that to me, just like you were saying, makes it work better regardless of whether or not it's true. And in terms of even just like the technical elements of this film, very, you know, pretty typical for Herzog, the the cinematography is beautiful, but very.
00:49:23:13 - 00:49:24:02
Clark
Simple.
00:49:24:07 - 00:49:24:20
Cullen
Simple.
00:49:25:18 - 00:49:27:00
Clark
Effective, but simple.
00:49:27:00 - 00:49:30:08
Cullen
Herzog has very little spoken narration, which is unique.
00:49:30:08 - 00:49:30:18
Clark
Which is a.
00:49:30:18 - 00:49:34:08
Cullen
Little yes, that is that is unique in terms of his his technical sides of his.
00:49:35:06 - 00:49:52:13
Clark
Generally. But we have a lot more narration is creation. But I get a sense that like we've talked about so many times, to get a sense that to a great extent he's speaking through. Dieter Yeah, I really get a sense of that, absolutely. And so that makes sense, you know, that I think he felt a kinship with Dieter, and I think I think he's using Dieter to speak.
00:49:52:22 - 00:49:54:12
Clark
So makes sense. Yeah.
00:49:54:12 - 00:50:11:13
Cullen
And so but yeah, and it, you know, again, much like a lot of the other Herzog films to shot on film long takes kind of wider lenses a lot of handheld photography but not shaky I mean I think I think that's kind of one of my big distinctions too, and that's something that I've taken a lot from Herzog in.
00:50:11:23 - 00:50:28:14
Cullen
When I'm doing something, I don't have sticks. I, you know, I primarily shoot on Tripod, but when I don't have sticks, my handheld photography is very much taken from Herzog's, which is designed to be as smooth as possible. And I don't like using gimbals. I don't like using stabilizers and things like that. I stay away from those things.
00:50:28:14 - 00:50:40:19
Cullen
I find that they look too mechanical and digital. But, you know, if I'm carrying again, you know, you people on the podcast can't see it, but I've got a very big camera behind me. If I'm carrying that handheld.
00:50:40:19 - 00:50:43:22
Clark
Very big, it's about as big as a car. From what I hear from.
00:50:43:22 - 00:50:49:06
Cullen
The old thirties. Mitchell Cameras. But but no, I mean that's that's.
00:50:49:06 - 00:50:50:06
Clark
Kind of got to very.
00:50:50:06 - 00:51:10:03
Cullen
Big thing is that there's the running through the jungle and Herzog specifically mentions again one of the that you mentioned in the masterclass was when he was searching for camera operators, the people that could stabilize the image with just their hands. And he tells that story about when he was walking through the glacier and that the guy could stick out his whole arm and just use his body weight to stabilize the camera.
00:51:10:03 - 00:51:26:00
Cullen
And it's very similar to here where it's like they're running through jungle, but it's not shot in a way that, you know, it's not like this kind of Michael Bay crazy action cam where it's like he's running through the jungle with these guys with guns and we're shaky cam close ups of his face and the sweat pouring off.
00:51:26:03 - 00:51:30:17
Cullen
No, it's just kind of the camera is on someone's shoulder and they're just following. And it's very.
00:51:30:20 - 00:51:49:20
Clark
Well, you know, it'll be interesting. And I you know, I going to be interested to kind of compare this because, you know, Peter's Ettlinger shot this film. He also shot Rescue Dawn. Mm hmm. So it's going to end, of course, Peter and Herzog worked together on many films. I can't remember exactly off the top of my head how many, but many.
00:51:50:05 - 00:52:14:05
Clark
And so it'll be really interesting to see the cinematography work here in this documentary and then go in to Rescue Dawn and see the narrative representation of that is going to be really interesting. But but I agree, it's it's effective. And, you know. Herzog I mean, all of his films have a physicality to them. I mean, so many of them are shot in these, you know, difficult, challenging environments.
00:52:14:05 - 00:52:15:13
Clark
Of course, this one is no different.
00:52:15:20 - 00:52:16:01
Cullen
Yeah.
00:52:17:00 - 00:52:26:13
Clark
So there's definitely a physicality to it. And it makes perfect sense that Herzog would look for somebody, you know, that has a physicality about them to be able to do this. But yeah, as.
00:52:26:13 - 00:52:31:18
Cullen
We kind of briefly mentioned before, the music very typical of Herzog in a way but.
00:52:32:02 - 00:52:32:20
Clark
Again a couple.
00:52:33:00 - 00:52:39:10
Cullen
Was exactly exactly there's there's so a lot of you know like viognier classical but also there's Siberia so.
00:52:39:22 - 00:52:40:07
Clark
Yeah.
00:52:40:19 - 00:53:04:19
Cullen
There's there's there's like in the Mood with Glen by Glenn Miller, there's all these different types of music, which is quite typical for Herzog. But there's one moment that you pointed out that I went back and listen to again, right? You know, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but right. Following the description of Duane's death. Correct. And it's it's almost and I sort of described it, you had a bit of a different feeling from it.
00:53:04:19 - 00:53:13:16
Cullen
I sort of described it almost as like it sounded to me almost like a military funeral march or something like that. But an older one, not like taps or something, but sort of almost like an.
00:53:13:23 - 00:53:15:12
Clark
It felt kind of Hollywood to me.
00:53:15:12 - 00:53:19:02
Cullen
Yeah, it's very Hollywood and very sympathetic, almost.
00:53:19:07 - 00:53:35:18
Clark
Yeah. It just felt, you know, it's like I mean, obviously music is used in many different ways in film, but it's used like often it's used to to kind of I mean, the worst way to be that, I guess the worst way I hear this, you know, the description of the worst usage is like when you tell the audience how they should feel it to feel.
00:53:35:18 - 00:53:49:21
Clark
Yeah. And and I'm not saying that that does that here. I'm not, but I think it's closer to that than I think I've ever seen in a documentary film for Herzog. Right. I mean, usually his music is kind of like this, elevating, like it kind of takes you to like.
00:53:49:21 - 00:53:50:10
Cullen
A part of the.
00:53:50:18 - 00:54:08:21
Clark
Real. Yeah, it's kind of right this you're it's such a contrast that that it forces you that it's changing the images on screen where you're almost kind of looking at things in an alien way. These landscapes start to take on, you know, you've got Siberian throat singing going on, you know, which.
00:54:08:21 - 00:54:14:09
Cullen
Even though it's Lao in Cambodia and Vietnam, the scene takes place in that it's got nothing to do with Siberia.
00:54:14:09 - 00:54:14:13
Clark
Nothing.
00:54:14:15 - 00:54:28:21
Cullen
Yeah, you've got an I actually remember identifying that exact song because that Siberian throat singing song, which we haven't film the name of, was this like big thing online. Like at the advent of YouTube, it was like this was one of the first viral videos. And when it was playing.
00:54:28:21 - 00:54:29:15
Clark
I remember.
00:54:30:02 - 00:54:35:11
Cullen
Hearing it going, That's the exact that's the exact tone that is in that like viral video all. So I'm going.
00:54:35:11 - 00:54:37:23
Clark
To have to look up some information on that. If you if you ever.
00:54:38:00 - 00:54:40:16
Cullen
Use YouTube search Siberian throat singing, it's the first result.
00:54:41:05 - 00:54:41:20
Clark
I'll be darned.
00:54:42:04 - 00:54:45:11
Cullen
So yeah so I you know, again, it's very somewhat.
00:54:45:16 - 00:54:47:00
Clark
Unique sounding this time.
00:54:47:00 - 00:54:51:10
Cullen
We know this would have been before. So this was 97 that in around 2006 or so.
00:54:52:13 - 00:54:53:06
Clark
That that the.
00:54:53:08 - 00:54:54:08
Cullen
That that that video.
00:54:54:08 - 00:54:55:15
Clark
Was so later.
00:54:55:19 - 00:55:06:00
Cullen
So not yeah so not that Herzog definitely didn't see it from you online and get it but but it is just kind of interesting that yeah it's it's clearly a more famous song from that that yeah.
00:55:06:02 - 00:55:07:10
Clark
Because we'll see if we can dig that up.
00:55:07:17 - 00:55:33:15
Cullen
Because I recognized it and I don't know I don't know that music at all. But we have them. So the musical all in all, is pretty typical of Herzog with those few exceptions, Right? But also really lovely. Very again, crosses like 50 different genres. And I love that about him that it's not it's it's utilize scene to scene what would be best for the scene and not trying to create some sort of soundscape for the whole movie that fits together like all classical are all Siberian.
00:55:33:20 - 00:55:35:07
Clark
Singer all he's not worried about that which.
00:55:35:07 - 00:55:57:03
Cullen
I haven't and I've again that's one of those things that, you know, even separate to Herzog. I've always kind of pushed for in mind my things is that I, I've never cared about the similarities of the soundings of the, you know, genres in music, in my movies, which I love. Yeah. And then, of course, you know, the the ending again, is kind of different in both our versions, right?
00:55:57:06 - 00:55:58:02
Cullen
The versions that we want.
00:55:58:02 - 00:56:17:00
Clark
I kind of hinted to that, right? So the original version we end, the film ends and I think it's really quite beautiful. And being a fan of, of a flying and having kind of a passion for planes myself, I can understand that a little bit. I have flown briefly. I flew a little bit when I was a kid.
00:56:17:03 - 00:56:18:02
Cullen
I like a pilot.
00:56:18:14 - 00:56:48:17
Clark
Yep, I don't have a pilot's license now. It's kind of on my on my list of things to do maybe down the road. But my father was a pilot and I grew up around planes quite a bit, and there is a magic to that for me. So I really relate to Dieter's kind of passion for this. But we end in this beautiful he's walking through this plane graveyard or plane store, I don't know sometimes to long term storage, but usually when you're when you've got a jet sitting outside in the desert that usually means they're waiting to be they're.
00:56:48:17 - 00:56:49:04
Cullen
Never going to.
00:56:49:04 - 00:56:58:06
Clark
Be. Yeah, but there's this lone giant. Yeah. Because they degrade pretty quick out there. But, but you've got this just, you know, acres and acres and acres of planes.
00:56:58:06 - 00:56:59:21
Cullen
And the camera pulls back and you see.
00:56:59:21 - 00:57:01:07
Clark
Just yeah, the.
00:57:01:07 - 00:57:02:04
Cullen
Horizon there.
00:57:02:11 - 00:57:26:05
Clark
And it's really beautiful and kind of. Herzog's narration talks about how this is a heaven for pilots, which and that's how the original version ended. Now, the version you watch, some of the version I watched was the Shout Factory Blu ray. But you interestingly, and we didn't even realize this till we kind of started comparing notes and talking about it, but the version that you watched on Amazon Prime actually has a short postscript.
00:57:26:10 - 00:57:27:09
Cullen
Yeah, which.
00:57:27:09 - 00:57:36:17
Clark
I was pretty surprised about because for a couple of reasons. It and I don't know what the history of the shooting is. I don't know who shot it, but you know.
00:57:37:03 - 00:57:38:21
Cullen
It's not said who filmed it.
00:57:39:10 - 00:58:03:17
Clark
Herzog owns the film. I mean, from everything I understand, I couldn't imagine there's any way that somebody could have manipulated the content of this film without his approval. So I'm sure that it was his design. But it's it's not like most of Herzog stuff. It's it's very much subjective ness or commentary going on. It's very much kind of like a journalistic just showing us some of the funeral in Arlington.
00:58:03:17 - 00:58:19:09
Cullen
Not shot on film either. Again, that's another point, is that it's shot on video. So it's not like they've got a film crew there. And so my my hypothesis was initially that because I wouldn't be surprised if Herzog was invited to Dangote's funeral because they were friends could.
00:58:19:09 - 00:58:19:14
Clark
Be.
00:58:20:01 - 00:58:35:13
Cullen
So that so I was wondering, you know, perhaps it was Herzog just going to pay his respects and putting that at the end of his film to kind of as a bookend could be. But I also don't again, we don't know. There's no there's no record of who like nobody's talking about in the camera. You don't see Herzog at the funeral.
00:58:35:13 - 00:58:36:02
Cullen
So it's not.
00:58:36:02 - 00:58:37:06
Clark
And there's no narration.
00:58:37:06 - 00:58:38:15
Cullen
There's no there's no narration.
00:58:38:15 - 00:58:39:21
Clark
Yeah, it's just it's just.
00:58:39:23 - 00:58:59:00
Cullen
Title cards of like describing that he died and that he got a f 14 Tomcat fly at the funeral and that he was, you know, Arlington in Arlington. And I don't know the laws or the rules around filming at Arlington. I don't know what the restrictions on that are. So perhaps this was the only way that Herzog was able to get any footage of it.
00:58:59:00 - 00:59:07:10
Cullen
Or perhaps, again, he's just somebody else. And Herzog managed to just acquire that footage and put it in an alternate version for the release.
00:59:07:14 - 00:59:33:18
Clark
Yeah, I think, you know, we may never know the answers to those questions, but I think one thing it definitely does speak to and I think it's a it's a fair thing to say, you know, Herzog is not like Lucas. You know, he doesn't go back and no knows once they're done. So I think I think it shows it it likely shows what high regard and how much respect and what an impact Dieter had on Herzog that he would go back and do this.
00:59:33:23 - 00:59:36:06
Clark
Yeah, that's that's my thinking. Yeah.
00:59:36:09 - 00:59:36:15
Cullen
Yeah.
00:59:37:03 - 00:59:42:17
Clark
And I and I and, you know, you take that and, you know, plus the fact he made two films and I mean.
00:59:42:21 - 00:59:51:19
Cullen
Again, it it clearly, the fact that it is right after seeing this graveyard of planes and suddenly we are and you know.
00:59:52:02 - 00:59:52:12
Clark
Right.
00:59:52:19 - 01:00:14:06
Cullen
Final resting place really suggests that there is a carry over again had there been sort of more it had been planned with the movie, like had Dieter died before the production, this movie was completed because, of course, this movie was shot and released in 1997. Dieter didn't die or 2000 ones. This edition came much later, but I think it was first seen in the 2004 DVD release.
01:00:15:02 - 01:00:36:15
Cullen
But you get the sense that, you know, and you even mention this before in our kind of preliminary chat where it's like, you know, perhaps had this been something that happened before the film was was completed, I could see. Herzog And you mentioned this as well. Herzog utilizing the like rows of crosses in Arlington to kind of juxtaposed against the rows of planes waiting for the graveyard.
01:00:36:15 - 01:00:37:06
Cullen
So very.
01:00:37:06 - 01:00:37:19
Clark
Similar. You know.
01:00:37:19 - 01:00:53:13
Cullen
It's very clearly not something that was obviously because he wasn't dead before the release this movie, but very clearly something that wasn't, you know, didn't have a lot of money thrown at it to kind of put it on this ending. And I could see it very much being just kind of Herzog's final tribute to.
01:00:53:13 - 01:01:16:12
Clark
That's what I think. I think just out of respect for a friend so personal and yeah, and, and like we said, we'll never know. But that's kind of what it felt like to me. Well, all right. Well, I think we're at the end of another episode, which is it's amazing how they fly by. And I can't believe it's like blowing my that we're on 26 episodes and that's just awesome.
01:01:16:12 - 01:01:34:22
Clark
It's been a fun experience and I hope people out there have enjoyed listening to it. I look forward, Colin, for our next episode of Rescue Dawn. That's going to be exciting and it'll be a unique experience to compare two different films on the same subject. Yeah, we've not gotten to do that on the podcast yet and so I'll be excited for that.
01:01:35:06 - 01:01:41:02
Clark
But everybody, thank you so much for hanging in there with us. I hope you enjoyed it and we will catch you next time.
01:01:41:03 - 01:01:47:20
Cullen
Thanks, everyone.