Clark
Hello, everybody, and welcome to yet another episode of the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. This is episode 25 where we're going to be discussing Herzog's 1999 film, My Best Field. And with me here today, as always, is the wonderful, magnificent, extraordinary Cullen McFater.
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Cullen
Well, let's go. I am not magnificent.
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Speaker 3
I am the essence of.
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Cullen
God as well.
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Clark
Exactly.
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Cullen
You know.
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Clark
Everybody out there, just as a heads up, you know, Colin and I are going to do this episode here today. I won't be playing Herzog. Cullen's going to be playing Kinski, and we're going to mirror that violent, turbulent relationship.
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Speaker 3
For the profanities.
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Clark
No, no, no. But it but in all reality, it's funny to think what it might have been like, the two of them in a room together. But but we're going to be discussing this this film, My Best Fiend. And and it is about the working relationship between Herzog and Klaus Kinski. They made five films together over the course of their working relationship, some of which are considered, you know, probably I think most people would agree some of Herzog's greatest films, We have a Gary Wrath of God and 72 Nos4a2 The Vampire in 78.
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Clark
Woyzeck in 78. Fitzcarraldo in 82. One of my personal favorites. And Cobra Verde in 87. So, I mean, they worked a lot together. And I think their relationship, their working relationship is, you know, it's the stories have reached mythic, epical, epic proportions, right, in this profoundly turbulent, violent, threatening each other's lives. But then, you know, in the next breath, you know, making it extraordinary movie magic together.
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Clark
I mean. Yeah.
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Speaker 3
And claiming that each other were brilliant in their own right.
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Cullen
Oh, yeah. Right, Right. Brilliant.
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Clark
One moment.
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Cullen
It was like.
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Speaker 3
It was like a married couple. Like, it was weird.
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Clark
But the, like, worst extreme. Thank God I'm not that way with my wife. I would have be able to handle that, you know? But. But, yeah, in the sense that there's this, this love, hate this, this, this extreme passion between the two of them. And it's a really interesting topic to discuss. And, you know, this is why Herzog decided to make a film about it, because it's it's a it's a creative relationship.
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Clark
It's a metaphor for the creative process. There's a lot of great things going on here, so we'll jump right in. But before we do, you know, I do want to give a little bit of background to who Klaus Kinski was. It's German actor. Probably most of you out there listening have some idea of who this is. And it's not to say that this film is at all like a biographical film.
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Speaker 3
It's not. Not at all.
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Clark
Not at all. But it probably helps to have a little bit of background. I found this to be interesting, at least just to have some context. And he was a controversial figure. And we're going to briefly talk about that, too, to give context for all the other things that we discuss about Kinski as it relates to Herzog's representation of him in this film.
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Clark
But I didn't know this. Did you know that at 17 years of age he was constricted, conscripted into the paratrooper unit for the.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, I had no idea.
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Clark
I had. At 17. At 17, apparently. And this is, you know, like almost everything in his life. It's like what was manufactured, what was actually real. You know, he claims to have deserted, but but we don't know if this is true. But his second day of combat, he was captured by the British. He actually in.
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Speaker 3
1943, just for context. So waiting for the effect.
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Clark
Yes. Near the end of the war. And he was actually captured by the British. And I think he ended up spending, you know, a year plus some time as a P.O.W. by being held by the British. But that's actually where he began acting from what I can understand, which is pretty interesting. And I mean, yeah.
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Speaker 3
In prison it says, yeah.
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Clark
And and I had read, too, that in 1950 he had actually did it. He did a stint in a psychiatric hospital and and that I guess there was a like a theatrical sponsor but some kind of peer or teacher or mentor. He actually tried to strangle her. I this is I'd never heard this story before but but that he was actually given like a preliminary diagnosis of schizophrenia.
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Clark
So I don't know if that's you know, if that's actually something he suffered from. But I mean, it kind of gives you a little bit of context that, you know, he was definitely and we'll get to this in this film. He was definitely off kilter.
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Speaker 3
And I wonder if that was a result of the combat or if that was something else.
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Clark
Or being hereditary.
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Cullen
Or what. Yeah, right.
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Clark
I mean, I'm sure that was extremely stressful to be, you know, to be conscripted into into the German army, the Nazis in World War Two, to be captured, to be to have to spend time in a in a prison camp. That could not have been fun, to say the least. Of course not. To make light of that. But then, you know, even more seriously, though, and I did not know this until not too long ago.
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Clark
And Collin, you didn't know that until today. But in 2013, his daughter actually printed and published an autobiography and she claimed that Kinski had sexually abused her when she was younger. So five.
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Speaker 3
To 19.
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Clark
Yeah, that which is obviously horrific. And so, you know, it's Herzog did not know about this when his film was released in 99. I actually looked and I couldn't find any. It doesn't mean there isn't any, but I could not find any public statements of Herzog's about this. And after that, after this information was was available. I haven't seen any comments, so I don't know if he's ever publicly commented.
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Clark
But I you know, it's just it's important, I think, to kind of have this context. I think a lot of people, you know, it's a challenging situation. A lot of people see him as a gifted actor. But I think it's important to kind of represent the fullness of, you know, who he might have been. So I just thought that would be kind of an interesting thing to to kind of present to people.
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Clark
But let's jump into the movie then. It's like we said, it's not a biographical film. I really think that this movie is more about Herzog.
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Speaker 3
Oh, absolutely.
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Cullen
That it is about.
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Speaker 3
The first things that I mentioned when we were just kind of having a luminary chat was that it seems like, I mean, a Herzog is definitely probably on screen for this more than any of the other documentaries argue. And B, it seems like Herzog almost took a step back from like full on directing scenes and allowed his crew to have more kind of freedom with how they chose to shoot it so that he would, because of the fact that he was a prisoner or a subject of this movie as well.
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Speaker 3
Right. That he would almost kind of eliminate that bias to shoot. But there are moments in this that will get into where there is definitely this this moment, because, of course, Kinski is not alive at the time of making this movie where you kind of have Herzog's word against Kinski's. And Herzog, of course, has the last word. And it's really interesting to see moments like that where there's certainly things that they disagree on.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, there's moments and I mean like moments of historical accuracy between the two of them where they give different accounts. And of course, the ones that we hear in this movie are are, of course. Herzog's Yeah, it's almost like a it's almost like a lawyer or a judge kind of acquitting themselves from a.
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Clark
Oh, that's an interesting way to look at it.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, because there's like a personal bias involved. But it is. But again, there is certainly still that perhaps unconscious bias in the movie.
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Clark
Right? Well, I think, you know, it's certainly Herzog's perspective on on on it's Herzog's perspective that's kind of you know, that definitely involves Kinski and their relationship. But it obviously and we have Herzog talking a lot about his relationship with Kinski. We have Herzog telling a story after story. We're going to get into some of those specifically. And clearly, you know, Herzog is a master storyteller, and we already know this behind the camera.
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Clark
Right. But when you look at Herzog in this film, I mean, there are uninterrupted takes that are two, three, four, 5 minutes long, right? Single cuts where, I mean, he is masterfully telling these stories. And I don't need vivid detail. Yeah, vivid detail. You know, there's totally compelling.
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Speaker 3
And the funniest thing is that when he tells these stories, you know, he's captivating. Even the people that were there. Right. To watch some stories where he's telling stories sitting beside or standing with them that were actually present. Yeah, and they are. But it also to me makes me wonder again, what is factually true in this movie and what is kind of the.
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Cullen
Always.
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Speaker 3
Exaggerated truth.
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Clark
Because always yeah.
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Speaker 3
I almost feel like a lot of the times when those people that were there kind of listening to Herzog tell the story, perhaps they're thinking in their head like, Well, I don't quite remember it that way, but, you know, and like, there's kind of a funny expression on some people's faces sometimes, which is really interesting to me because again, we've we've discussed them numerous times in this podcast.
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Speaker 3
The idea of, you know, what is true may not be what is factual and.
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Clark
What is factual.
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Cullen
Doesn't really.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, storytelling, right?
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Clark
And we know that you know, we know that Herzog is much more than he is overwhelmingly concerned with, you know, an ecstatic truth, as he would call it, as opposed to an accountant's facts. So I almost always, you know, I go into all of Herzog's films of fully recognizing that, you know, he's a storyteller. He tells stories to effect.
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Clark
I'm almost certain that he's exaggerating. He's, you know, kind of compiling and synthesizing and and he's, you know, I do think he's genuinely shooting for what he believes the the real heart of the truth of the thing to be, as opposed to what would have been an objective truth. And it's interesting And it's interesting. I mean, you mentioned this right off the bat.
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Clark
You know, Kinski's not here. He died when did he die? I think in 1991. So he you know, he died eight years before the making of this film. So although Herzog is using footage of Kinski, of course, he is the one in the driver's seat. He gets to pick the footage that he you know, he's choosing the footage.
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Clark
He but but to be fair, I mean, I think he shows Kinski as some of his worst, at least the worst as it was known at that time.
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Speaker 3
And caught on camera.
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Clark
And caught on camera and. Right. Of course. And and then he also has people speak to him in really glowing positive ways. You know, he brings ever Madison, Claudia Cardinale to actresses in two different films that worked with Kinski and I mean and they just gush about what a kind you know a kind, generous, warm, vulnerable, able, thoughtful person.
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Clark
He was in addition to being an extraordinary actor. So but but Herzog ends the film even in a, you know, extremely well, I would say a bittersweet moment. I don't know if you know, but definitely admits that there was more than one side to Kinski and admits that there's more than one side to himself. And this is where, you know, we know that Herzog loves to play with metaphor.
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Clark
And I think that, like many artists do, if not, maybe most or all, you know, see the world through this lens of of symbol. Right. That that everything could be a symbol or a metaphor for something else. And you know, we hear Herzog talk about this constantly. You know, he whether it's Fitzcarraldo and the ship over the mountain, you know, I mean, the reason that these things are important to him is because they're they're they're metaphors for something.
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Clark
And I really feel like that's how he's approaching Kinski here, you know, not so much as a human being, but he's he's processing what this relationship symbolized to him and and maybe even how was Kinski a mirror or how did Kinski reflect him? You know, Herzog.
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Cullen
And.
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Clark
Upsells work to an effect, his work. Right. And and so those things are what I find so fascinating. Right? I mean, obviously, you know, the personalities are extremely interesting. And and it would be an interesting subject just to have a biographical story about Kinski. But but that's not at all what's happening here.
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Speaker 3
And in line with that, the one of the funny part, speaking of like, you know, biographies about Kinski, is that Kinski wrote an autobiography. But in this, Herzog claims that it was wildly inaccurate. So so again.
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Clark
And I would love to, you know, and what would Kinski say about this film, which is, you know, that's kind of the the the joke, I guess, is that, you know, I'm sure that Kinski's book was dramatic, you know, completely dramatized. But of course.
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Cullen
So is Herzog.
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Speaker 3
So is this likely? So is this.
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Cullen
Yeah. And that.
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Clark
But that's a good you know, and just to take it further, one of the things I thought was so interesting about that scene that you're talking about. So in the film, there is a moment where Herzog actually has Kinski's biography or autobiography, actually, I think, and and Herzog is talking about kind of recanting the story about how Kinski was that Herzog actually helped Kinski come up with some of these derogatory terms.
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Clark
They actually broke out a thesaurus. And Herzog was all, you should say on this. You should say on that. Let's really, you know, crank this up. And Kinski said, well, you know, hey, you know, I have to say something bad, right? Because that's what sells books. I have to say something bad. Herzog's like, Yeah, I know. Let me help you.
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Clark
And then Herzog goes on to, to, to kind of, you know, he he looks through the book and he thinks about it, and he's like, well, Kinski was was clearly obsessed with me. You know, he mentions me page after page after page. And it's just interesting to me because certainly Herzog, I mean, I've got to imagine that he's a very self-aware person on some levels.
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Clark
He not he may not be introspective or, you know, and kind of always analyzing himself. I know that he he kind of talks against that about really self-conscious and, you know, self analyzation like you've got to think that he's aware when he's like making a movie about Kinski and he's talking about Kinski being obsessed with him. You've got to think like Herzog knows he's obsessed with Kinski, too.
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Cullen
Right, exactly.
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Speaker 3
Well, that's that's what I mean when I say that perhaps a more apt description is sort of like an old divorced couple who are still in love with each other, but just were too toxic a relationship to ever stay together because it's like they're constantly talking about each other. Yeah. And it's this other thing where it's like they're constantly saying, Oh, I don't like him.
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Speaker 3
I don't I don't like this about him. I don't like that about him. This is crazy. This is a lie, blah, blah, blah. And then they kind of break down to it and it's like, Yeah, but you know, I love him. Like, it's this funny thing. And then especially when they get together, you know, you see moments where they haven't seen each other for years and then they get together and they're talking and they embrace.
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Speaker 3
But they still going to have this like almost gay edge.
00:15:00:12 - 00:15:03:16
Clark
It's an edge, Yeah. It's like a competitive kind of edge.
00:15:03:16 - 00:15:30:01
Speaker 3
Yeah. It's like a one upsmanship contest. It's really interesting. And there's so much there's there's some things in here that we found hilarious in this movie that Herzog intentionally chose to put in. Yeah, but that kind of go against a lot of the things that Herzog has said. And one of those things is there's a moment in this movie, it's not a big moment, but it's we both caught which one is a moment in this movie where they show footage from Fitzcarraldo of the ship?
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Cullen
Yes, yes, yes. Set the set the show.
00:15:33:00 - 00:15:47:01
Speaker 3
So Herzog has gone on for gone on record a lot of times saying that everything and hit Fitzcarraldo is real. There's not a single special effect that it a single you know, everything that you see was really done, the ship going down the river and breaking against the bank and all that. Yeah, it was a full size ship.
00:15:47:01 - 00:15:53:12
Speaker 3
All the time. And it certainly was a full size ship that they sent down. No question. Just one shot that we found in this.
00:15:53:12 - 00:15:54:09
Cullen
Movie, in this plot.
00:15:54:10 - 00:16:09:16
Speaker 3
Separately, just this came across and kind of made a mental note of where it's very clearly a miniature. It's filmed very much, obviously in slow motion. There's like water droplets bouncing off the ship that very clearly are too small to have been. We both.
00:16:09:16 - 00:16:11:11
Cullen
Notice. Yep, we both and it looks.
00:16:11:11 - 00:16:27:08
Speaker 3
Even the ship I've got the shot up right now and even the ship looks like a miniature version of the big ship. Like the details just kind of aren't there on a full scale. Right. So we thought that A it's funny that Herzog chose to put this into the movie because perhaps he thinks that the shot looks so real that he can still get away with it.
00:16:27:08 - 00:16:32:19
Speaker 3
Or perhaps he's almost pulling the cloth away and sort of saying like, see, I did trick people.
00:16:33:22 - 00:16:35:08
Cullen
And, you know, I do think that is funny.
00:16:35:08 - 00:16:45:19
Clark
You just know, I think what we've got to do and I want to come back to this when we do an episode on Fitzcarraldo, I want to double check to make sure that this scene is actually in the picture.
00:16:45:19 - 00:17:05:03
Speaker 3
Well, I mean, that's what's interesting is that it's on both the Wikipedia and on a website called I think it was like Ship Mart ship models in movies dot com or like a database. And both of them reference Fitzcarraldo and say that in the movie like not not cut scenes on everything but in the movie there was but there is no credited model maker there's no.
00:17:05:03 - 00:17:06:05
Clark
Credited the fact.
00:17:06:09 - 00:17:36:12
Speaker 3
Yeah for for like a miniature effects artist or any like that. There's no nothing credit in the movie for that Right. So I do wonder I do you know, is it, is it Herzog is Herzog aware that this shot is kind of, you know, clearly a miniature and he's putting it in there to kind of play with the self-aware fact that he goes like, perhaps it's just all meta and perhaps that the whole point of that being in there and, you know, there also could be the aspect of we're just I'm just reading way too much into this, but perhaps it is this meadow thing on Herzog's part where he's like, you know, I'm talking
00:17:36:12 - 00:17:51:02
Speaker 3
about how much how much Kinski makes up. I'm talking about how much Kinski lied about all of these events. And I'm putting this in there to kind of prove, Hey, I also didn't tell the truth. I don't know. It could be that. It could also just be that Herzog thinks it's a cool shot, that that looks real enough to be put in there, you.
00:17:51:02 - 00:18:11:20
Clark
Know, And I love and I love both. You know, obviously, I, I lean towards LA. I love the first explanation more. I hope that that's the one it is. But but you're right. There's no way that we can know. Maybe one day, if and when we ever get Herzog on this podcast, we can ask him about it. But yeah, it's so funny that that stuck out to both of us.
00:18:11:20 - 00:18:31:20
Clark
You know it. I missed that on my first viewing or, you know, I just, you know, or maybe I kind of I wasn't watching it with the kind of eye that I was watching it again this time. But I did miss it. I don't recall that ever sticking out to me. And I agree with you. I think it's fascinating because as soon as I realized that, I mean, I made a note.
00:18:31:20 - 00:18:40:21
Clark
And right when we were talking, you know, in preparation for this podcast, I was like, and wait, wait, wait, wait. Oh, my gosh, you've got to pull the film back up. You've got to go to 30. Yeah, I think it's like 30 minutes.
00:18:40:22 - 00:18:45:12
Speaker 3
30 to 30 minutes. And it is I've got the exact time stamp, 3103 30.
00:18:45:12 - 00:18:48:10
Clark
103 So everybody out there go to 3103.
00:18:48:10 - 00:18:50:11
Speaker 3
It's on prime video if you got Amazon Prime video.
00:18:50:13 - 00:18:51:00
Cullen
But.
00:18:51:12 - 00:19:10:15
Clark
But right but we've looked it up and I mean I think all signs point to that This is a model it is a special effects shot and I cannot tell you how many times I have heard Herzog talk about Fitzcarraldo and talk about the vital importance of the ship being real.
00:19:10:15 - 00:19:11:20
Speaker 3
It's in the master class.
00:19:12:09 - 00:19:13:11
Clark
It's in the master.
00:19:13:11 - 00:19:14:01
Cullen
Class.
00:19:14:01 - 00:19:14:10
Speaker 3
Or class.
00:19:14:11 - 00:19:20:04
Clark
It's in the master class that we that we have done episodes on previously. And so I agree with you.
00:19:20:11 - 00:19:31:11
Speaker 3
And I also just want to clarify that this isn't us like going look at her as like we go out in Herzog as a guy who's a fake or a phony. I love this. Like, I think that this is just if anything, it enhances the myth of Greece.
00:19:31:12 - 00:19:31:20
Cullen
Oh, yeah.
00:19:32:07 - 00:19:33:20
Speaker 3
Herzog's filmography.
00:19:33:20 - 00:19:34:12
Cullen
Yeah, And it just.
00:19:34:12 - 00:19:51:20
Speaker 3
Is one of those things that again and I think me and you went over this before as well, where it's like, if we were to ever ask him about it, it wouldn't be a gotcha moment. No, it would be more of a moment of, you know, clarification in terms of like, you know, you've gone on record saying how vital it was to make sure everything was real.
00:19:52:12 - 00:20:02:13
Speaker 3
Why is that in there? Yeah, I wonder. I actually am more curious as to the point. And why is it in this one? Yeah, because that is a shot that he would have had to look at and cut out. You know, it's not like in Fitzcarraldo he.
00:20:02:13 - 00:20:21:13
Clark
Could have put any shot, right. He could have put any number of shots from Fitzcarraldo where they actually absolutely, positively used the real ship, because they most certainly did use a real ship. That's no question. It was for just a very, very small what we read was for some of the Whitewater rapids scenes.
00:20:21:15 - 00:20:21:22
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:20:22:07 - 00:20:24:00
Clark
That that a model was used for.
00:20:24:00 - 00:20:29:08
Speaker 3
So I'd have to watch Fitzcarraldo again to see. And it's easy to pinpoint like it's not difficult to kind of make.
00:20:29:08 - 00:20:31:20
Clark
It stand so it stands out. Yeah, but.
00:20:31:20 - 00:20:50:21
Speaker 3
No, I just think it's interesting that in this movie where it's so much about, you know, these two almost opposite sides of the same coin, telling different stories about the same events, telling, you know, or having different impressions of who was, you know, even the moment when Hitchcock or Hitchcock, Herzog says.
00:20:51:22 - 00:20:55:13
Cullen
That's our next pod, that's our next podcast.
00:20:55:13 - 00:20:56:04
Clark
We'll do Hitchcock.
00:20:56:08 - 00:21:16:01
Speaker 3
But Herzog says, you know, Kinski thought that I was insane and said that I was insane, but I'm not insane in the clinical sense. I'm very sane in the clinical Yeah, it's like this funny little bit where. But then Herzog, of course, goes on to I don't think Herzog ever actually explicitly says that that Kinski was insane or psychopathic or anything.
00:21:16:01 - 00:21:17:21
Speaker 3
But he does mention kind of allude to his.
00:21:18:00 - 00:21:19:07
Clark
Can't remember He might.
00:21:19:14 - 00:21:20:13
Cullen
He might. I don't.
00:21:20:18 - 00:21:22:11
Speaker 3
I don't think it's ever explicitly.
00:21:22:11 - 00:21:27:12
Clark
Said not medically. I don't know that he did. He never goes so far as to say like he is medically.
00:21:27:16 - 00:21:28:21
Cullen
You know, he's clinically.
00:21:29:04 - 00:21:47:08
Clark
Yeah, but but I think he says just about everything else under the book. Well, you know and I agree. I think it's interesting. And you're right I mean because because of the context of Herzog is always I mean, you know, look, he's probably I mean, I can hardly think of another director except for maybe somebody like Kevin Smith.
00:21:47:08 - 00:22:17:00
Clark
And that's obviously a very radically different type of director. But I heard I can't think of hardly any director who talks about their work as much as Herzog talks about his work. And yeah, I mean, let's think about it. This is a movie where Herzog has is, you know, he's made a movie about making movies. And, you know, half the footage in this is movies is are clips, shots from his other films and and and then mixed in with his new interview footage.
00:22:17:05 - 00:22:40:10
Clark
But I mean he's constantly right his Q&A is his masterclass He's got, you know, a handful of numerous books. I mean he spends a great and he's constantly speaking. I mean, he's constantly traveling, traveling the world, doing speaking engagements. If you go on YouTube, if you go almost anywhere and you just type in Herzog interview, I mean, you could fill the next month listening to Herzog talk about his films.
00:22:40:16 - 00:23:00:10
Clark
So, you know, I mean, and that's definitely a part of his whole kind of, you know, you have to take all of that into consideration. It's all kind of a part of the a part of one. So he speaks so much about truth versus fact. And so we know this is an important part of his of his films.
00:23:00:15 - 00:23:20:11
Clark
And so you're right. That's why this is fine. And and we know that he makes up quotes. We know that he manipulates and stages interviews. We know that he even tells interviewees what to say sometimes. I mean, he you know, there's just about he's done everything. But again, you know, towards the pursuance of an ecstatic truth and and so I love it.
00:23:20:11 - 00:23:24:00
Clark
I mean, that's how I'm going to take it. And I think it's fantastic. Well, and.
00:23:24:01 - 00:23:34:09
Speaker 3
Even again, this this element of competitiveness is so funny in it where there's even a moment when Herzog is sitting with some some of the native Peruvians that worked on Fitzcarraldo.
00:23:34:18 - 00:23:35:16
Cullen
Oh, Fitzcarraldo. Okay.
00:23:36:05 - 00:23:38:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, I remember which one it was, but but they're sitting there.
00:23:38:11 - 00:23:41:06
Clark
Beside me just kind of mixing in both kinds of stories.
00:23:41:16 - 00:24:02:21
Speaker 3
You know, they're similarly shot in locations there. Yeah, but he says, you know, that the that the natives told me that they were never afraid of Kinski, but they were afraid of me because I was quiet. I was, you know, it's like this again. It's this funny thing where it almost, you know, intentionally or accidentally highlights this idea that they're so similar.
00:24:02:21 - 00:24:32:05
Speaker 3
There was just slight differences in the way that they composed themselves. And of course, you know, beyond the the accusations on Kinski, of course, we're not painting any of that on Herzog yet. But in terms of their temperament and stuff, that it's interesting to note that or their interests in, they're interested in insanity and taking things incredibly far that he tells the story of of Kinski showing up for Aguirre with with like ten tons of of alpine hiking equipment and ready to go and get this opening shot on a glacier.
00:24:32:05 - 00:24:54:14
Speaker 3
And it's like he wanted that real thing. But then he describes Kinski also as saying that you know, he liked nature when he could control it. But there was no rain in his jungle. There were no mosquitoes in his jungle. There was no. And speaking of the jungle, too, that is a really interesting element where it's like, again, that this you kind of get this double sided coin where he says that Kinski never wandered more than 100 feet into the jungle.
00:24:54:14 - 00:24:59:00
Speaker 3
He wouldn't go in. And when he did, he brought a photographer to make sure that he captured this moment of him entering the jungle.
00:24:59:00 - 00:24:59:09
Clark
And that is.
00:24:59:09 - 00:25:25:04
Speaker 3
Herzog, on the other hand, does talk about the jungle in or the jungle. And in a way of saying that it's like it's something that he also he feared that he loathed it, didn't love it, and it was uncomfortable. But he also saw it as this great, incredible, like temperament for chaos and murder and I almost I mentioned this earlier in our conversation, but I almost take it as like it's almost Herzog's like The Jungle is almost Herzog's metaphor for filmmaking.
00:25:25:08 - 00:25:34:01
Speaker 3
Yeah. Where he he is like, afraid of it and he doesn't like the challenges. And when I say doesn't like he almost secretly loves like he almost.
00:25:34:02 - 00:25:34:09
Cullen
Yes.
00:25:34:14 - 00:25:35:18
Speaker 3
It's like an addiction.
00:25:35:18 - 00:25:36:11
Cullen
It's this yes.
00:25:36:15 - 00:25:37:12
Speaker 3
It's this dangerous.
00:25:37:13 - 00:25:49:11
Clark
That that, that which nourishes also destroys and and that of course. And that's I think you're getting really close to to what the sense that I kind of get from this film is that that's kind of what Kinski is represented.
00:25:49:11 - 00:25:49:19
Cullen
Yes.
00:25:49:19 - 00:26:13:04
Clark
That's that's all of of you know, the parts of of a whole of you know, whether that's the jungle which Herzog continues to go back to. It's, you know, he constantly shoots in extremely difficult and challenging locations. He's whether it's Antarctica or the Amazon, you know, he's working with extremely difficult people now. You know, I haven't heard any stories of Herzog working with extremely difficult people outside of Kinski.
00:26:13:09 - 00:26:31:08
Clark
So obviously he can operate without having to have such a loose cannon on set. But, you know, certainly some of his greater films were made with Kinski and he sought this person out. He knew how difficult it was to shoot with, and he still shot with him for five films.
00:26:31:08 - 00:26:43:02
Speaker 3
That's always important to know, too, that it's not like it's not like Aguirre was the only issue that that where Herzog had issues with them, with Kinski, that it was continuous, like it.
00:26:43:02 - 00:26:43:19
Clark
Wasn't everywhere.
00:26:43:19 - 00:26:45:05
Speaker 3
It wasn't a situation where it was like.
00:26:45:05 - 00:26:45:18
Cullen
Okay, have.
00:26:45:18 - 00:27:01:14
Speaker 3
To work through our strife in Aguirre. And then the next ones were great. We we understood each other. Now. They never did it. Herzog says that even in Fitzcarraldo, that it was like I think he says the last two days or something where the only times when Kinski seemed to sort of get his bearings together, they finished the movie.
00:27:01:14 - 00:27:30:18
Speaker 3
That was it. And then But on a very opposite note, in Kobra, Verdi, which actually was based on the Chatwin book, So kind of a little bit of connection there. Yeah. But that Kinski was so focused on directing his his own movie and creating his own movie that it was this Herzog describes it as this alien presence over Kinski that ruined his performance in the last few days of shooting, that he was so focused on this next movie and that Herzog kind of cites.
00:27:30:18 - 00:27:46:04
Speaker 3
That is the reason they never work together again. Despite Cobra Verde being in 1987 and there being, you know, few more years for them to work together, you know, because Kinski died in 1991. So there was certainly time. Yeah. For them to have made another movie. But considering.
00:27:46:04 - 00:27:46:16
Cullen
Only two.
00:27:46:16 - 00:28:06:05
Speaker 3
Movies together in one year. But but yeah, that was it. And I also, you know, I ran this by again, not to speculate or not to put words in Herzog's mouth or anything like that, but I would find it interesting to know if Herzog was almost like jaded and kind of personally hurt by the fact that Kinski was going off to kind of make his own thing.
00:28:06:05 - 00:28:06:19
Speaker 3
And it's kind of.
00:28:06:19 - 00:28:14:04
Clark
Like, well, he wanted because he wanted Herzog to direct that film. Yeah. And he was. Herzog Yeah. And heard Herzog read the script and said, this is unsuitable and.
00:28:14:06 - 00:28:18:18
Speaker 3
Which perhaps it was because it didn't do very well. It was not considered a very good movie.
00:28:18:18 - 00:28:19:05
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah.
00:28:20:12 - 00:28:39:01
Speaker 3
So, you know, perhaps Herzog was correct in that, but but no, it does. There is definitely a somber thing when Herzog retells that story versus all the other ones, there's kind of a charm to the other stories about how, you know, it was crazy not seeing. But that describes the ending of Cobra verité and says that, you know, and then we never work together.
00:28:39:04 - 00:28:46:01
Speaker 3
There is this definite kind of, you know, it almost feels personal, more personal. And sure, more affecting on Herzog Yeah. Everything else.
00:28:47:02 - 00:29:09:12
Clark
And what what we're seeing as he's telling this story is the last the last scene that they shot together. It's where, you know, the Kinski's Kinski is trying to pull this impossibly heavy boat into the ocean. And it's kind of like, you know, Don Quixote swinging at windmills and his character dies there on the beach. And so, yeah, I agree.
00:29:09:12 - 00:29:28:23
Clark
I mean, it's it is a curious it's it's interesting to speculate it or to wonder why they didn't work again. I mean, Kinski was only alive for about four years after that. But like you said, they had made two films in one year at one point. So and I think at 78. So, you know, certainly they could have made another film.
00:29:28:23 - 00:29:34:16
Clark
But who knows? You know, as we get older, too, you know, we're willing to put up with less and less crap.
00:29:35:04 - 00:29:36:02
Cullen
Yeah, that's a good point.
00:29:36:02 - 00:29:38:15
Clark
At least. At least I know I am right. You know, it's like and.
00:29:38:16 - 00:29:43:04
Speaker 3
Herzog would have been, I guess, in his late forties when doing Cobra Verde, so.
00:29:43:05 - 00:29:44:04
Clark
Right. Yeah. He was in it.
00:29:44:05 - 00:29:47:03
Speaker 3
Could just be a level of mature, honest that he was just kind of like, all right.
00:29:47:06 - 00:29:48:00
Clark
Just tired.
00:29:48:01 - 00:29:49:21
Cullen
Yeah, that's tendencies. Yeah.
00:29:50:12 - 00:30:02:19
Speaker 3
And I also think it's, you know, because it's, it's also not a situation where Kinski was only like this with Herzog, you know, there's the famous story of him and they getting offered the part for Totw in Raiders of the Lost Ark.
00:30:03:03 - 00:30:03:10
Clark
Right.
00:30:03:10 - 00:30:19:22
Speaker 3
And then he responded to Spielberg by saying, this is an actual quote, This script is a yawn making boring pile of shit and moronic shitty. So of course, I you know, I love Raiders. Raiders is a great movie. We do. But I do think it's hilarious that, you know, he was certainly not one to mince words.
00:30:20:03 - 00:30:20:13
Cullen
Yeah.
00:30:20:20 - 00:30:29:07
Speaker 3
And so it wasn't to say I can't honestly, I almost wish he did take that role just to hear and see how differently the production of Raiders would have gone with you there.
00:30:29:07 - 00:30:31:10
Cullen
I mean, I don't know if they would survive.
00:30:31:10 - 00:30:34:09
Clark
Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't even know if Spielberg would have put up with that.
00:30:34:09 - 00:30:41:13
Speaker 3
No, I know Kinski or sorry, Raiders was a famously like really well done production like that. There were very smooth.
00:30:41:18 - 00:30:41:22
Cullen
Really.
00:30:41:23 - 00:30:51:05
Speaker 3
Smooth under budget, under schedule. So yeah, ahead of schedule. So I wonder if Kinski was there, what that difference would have made in that movie.
00:30:51:10 - 00:30:51:22
Cullen
Yeah, kind of.
00:30:52:04 - 00:30:58:04
Clark
It's a fun thing to think about, no question. The original performance, and I forget the actor's name, did an extraordinary job, by the way.
00:30:58:22 - 00:31:00:00
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. But it is.
00:31:00:00 - 00:31:01:10
Speaker 3
Eric and he wasn't even a German that.
00:31:01:11 - 00:31:27:05
Clark
Yeah, but it is, it is a super fun thing to think about and you know, I mean, you know, and just to go back a little bit to this, I mean it's, you know, well, actually, you know what? I actually want to bring up something different. I wanted to add, because this is, you know, something that I think about, you know, as I'm you know, as I watch this film and as I, you know, hear the stories not just from Herzog telling them here in this film, but, you know, they're there throughout.
00:31:27:05 - 00:31:55:08
Clark
I mean, again, it's like so part and parcel to the mythology of Herzog as a director, you know, that how difficult it was to work with Kinski and how violent that relationship was it. You know, I, I can't help but to think and I'm curious to have a conversation with you about this and see what you think, you know, what would that mean for today and what would that mean for us, for you and I personally, as filmmakers?
00:31:55:08 - 00:32:05:18
Clark
I think, you know, obviously, you know, we are we're in 20, 21 right now. You know, we have gone through the MeToo movement. Yeah, we have. There have been.
00:32:05:22 - 00:32:07:16
Speaker 3
A lot more accountability on sets, a.
00:32:07:16 - 00:32:09:00
Clark
Lot more accountability on.
00:32:09:02 - 00:32:10:06
Speaker 3
Just in businesses in general.
00:32:10:06 - 00:32:13:20
Clark
And just right and and absolutely appropriately so.
00:32:14:01 - 00:32:14:17
Cullen
Yeah.
00:32:14:17 - 00:32:15:18
Clark
Where you know.
00:32:15:22 - 00:32:17:04
Cullen
A lot of did a.
00:32:17:04 - 00:32:40:02
Clark
Lot of people you know whatever the kind of abuse it is that you know and especially on film sets where there's often huge, you know, discrepancies in power potentially between, you know, gatekeepers and, you know, people who are desperate for work. But, you know, I mean, I. What do you think? So, you know, here we have, you know, Herzog Kinski.
00:32:40:07 - 00:32:56:05
Clark
He's screaming and yelling at other crew. He's disrespectful to numerous people on set. Yeah. Now, not to everybody, because like I said, we we have other people here who say that he was fantastic. But clearly, I mean, he was disrespectful and violent to Herzog.
00:32:56:05 - 00:32:57:15
Speaker 3
And tried to get camera operators.
00:32:57:15 - 00:33:11:21
Clark
Fired. Camera operators fired. So, you know, it's undeniable that the final product is great. Undeniable. Right. So what do you think? Like, how does that calculus go in your head? What would you do today? I'm just curious. Like.
00:33:12:09 - 00:33:23:16
Speaker 3
I mean, I've never had, as I would say, the most closest I've ever had to a like a difficult actor of hers or a Kinski like actor was when I was at a film camp when I was like 13.
00:33:24:12 - 00:33:29:01
Cullen
And Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. I have to stop you. I have to stop. Okay. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
00:33:29:01 - 00:33:41:05
Clark
But hold on for a minute. Just hold on for a minute. Hold on. Oh, my gosh. Okay, Wait, wait. I need. I need. I need to draw this out. So I've got let's imagine a 13 year old Colin. So this is.
00:33:41:07 - 00:33:43:06
Speaker 3
Back when I would also look like this all the.
00:33:43:06 - 00:33:45:17
Clark
Time. This is just two years ago for you, so.
00:33:45:17 - 00:33:49:06
Cullen
Yeah, exactly. Sorry. I'm so sorry. So it's like.
00:33:49:12 - 00:33:53:20
Clark
So you're 13 and when you're 13, what is that, like sixth grade? Is that about.
00:33:53:20 - 00:33:54:22
Cullen
Sixth grade something?
00:33:55:03 - 00:33:55:22
Speaker 3
Seventh? I was I.
00:33:55:22 - 00:33:56:13
Cullen
Was going.
00:33:56:13 - 00:33:58:09
Speaker 3
Into or may have just finished seventh.
00:33:58:09 - 00:34:09:23
Clark
So you're middle school. You're middle school. So here's what I'm imagining. I'm just imagining, like Director Colin, you've got your your megaphone and you've got your, like, you know, you're like.
00:34:09:23 - 00:34:12:07
Speaker 3
Director Little Spielberg is what they used to call me.
00:34:12:18 - 00:34:14:08
Cullen
You've got little Spielberg.
00:34:14:08 - 00:34:18:02
Clark
And you've got, like, your safari vest on with, you know, and you've got your yellow.
00:34:18:02 - 00:34:21:01
Cullen
Hat. Yeah, yeah. All that. Yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep.
00:34:21:01 - 00:34:30:23
Clark
And, and I can just imagine, like, a fellow 13 year old with, like, wild blond hair, like shooting out in all directions, like screaming at you in German.
00:34:31:07 - 00:34:33:03
Speaker 3
And I've got a mustache at that point, too.
00:34:33:05 - 00:34:35:13
Cullen
You've got a mustache, I guess you've got.
00:34:35:13 - 00:34:42:23
Clark
A Herzog and mustache, and you're. And there's like a 30 year old Kinski over there screaming like, you know, Oh, my God.
00:34:43:00 - 00:34:48:10
Speaker 3
Oh, What's funny about this, though, is and it's actually it's not actually all that inaccurate. I won't mention the kid's name.
00:34:48:10 - 00:34:49:14
Cullen
Of course, the body washes.
00:34:49:22 - 00:34:52:09
Speaker 3
But we never got along. I always hated him.
00:34:52:14 - 00:34:56:01
Cullen
Yeah, What does that say? So sorry to interrupt. Sorry to interrupt. No, no, no, No worries.
00:34:56:01 - 00:34:58:06
Speaker 3
But a merry picture. Very funny story.
00:34:58:08 - 00:35:00:15
Cullen
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Please tell it. Please don't.
00:35:01:06 - 00:35:13:13
Speaker 3
You know, we would be doing scenes or shots, and it was like a you know, everyone would have a role in the movie. That was the film camp was actually it was a great experience for me growing up because it was run like a real set, you know. You know, we had sound recorders, we had people on boom.
00:35:13:13 - 00:35:14:21
Speaker 3
We had people very much like.
00:35:14:22 - 00:35:16:21
Cullen
I would have loved to do that at that age. Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:16:21 - 00:35:45:03
Speaker 3
It wasn't just going out with a cell phone. We had, you know, entertainment like we had DSL. Yeah, yeah. So things like that. And we had to do reshoots and we were doing reshoots. And this a very specific story. We were doing reshoots in a different location than the original scene was shot, but the reshoots were all close ups of just like elements, just basically cut ins and inserts and but he was going that he was saying, like, I'm not going to do this because it's we're not the same location.
00:35:45:03 - 00:35:59:11
Speaker 3
It's going to look stupid and everyone's going to know that we film this in the same location. And I've you know, I've actually not that I'm maybe I'm being a little bit hurt like Herzog here. I've always been quite calm tempered, like I you know, it takes a lot for me to lose my temper and stuff like that.
00:35:59:11 - 00:36:14:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, I'm quite, quite, you know, cool, calm and pretty even. Yeah, easy way to describe it. And but I just remember kind of to, like, work with this this kid who was the same age as me and just sort of go like, will you just shut up and do the scene because like, it's not going to make a difference.
00:36:14:11 - 00:36:18:01
Speaker 3
Nobody's going to yell at us because the wall is slightly a different. Well, that.
00:36:18:12 - 00:36:19:09
Cullen
That's hysterical.
00:36:19:09 - 00:36:28:14
Clark
That you say that because I mean, that was, you know, one of the people interviewed in this film was a photographer and his name is Beat. I don't know if I'm pronouncing.
00:36:28:14 - 00:36:32:15
Speaker 3
Who's taken a lot of the famous, you know, famous Herzog arms for his posters.
00:36:32:21 - 00:36:51:21
Clark
Which are highlighted, which are highlighted in this film for sure. But this but this photographer beat Presser is there. And he's he's actually kind of, you know, telling a little bit of the stories about how. Okay. So, yes, you know, Kinski was was off the rails and he was inappropriately, you know, would violent and his mood swings were just erratic and happened, you know, just boom, he could turn on a dime.
00:36:52:03 - 00:36:58:06
Clark
But when it came to you know, whatever it was that he got mad at, it was like he was right.
00:36:58:14 - 00:36:59:14
Speaker 3
There was always a thing.
00:36:59:15 - 00:37:04:16
Clark
It was like and and he was right. You know, there was like an issue with the lighting. There's an issue with the sound there.
00:37:04:17 - 00:37:05:11
Speaker 3
Someone was talking.
00:37:05:11 - 00:37:20:04
Clark
And there was somebody, you know, Yeah, there's like 30 people standing around. But somehow he can pick out the one person who's, you know, talking, you know, 30 feet away or something. But he was always right. It was like, yeah, he was extremely exacting. So I'm just imagining he had this.
00:37:20:06 - 00:37:21:00
Cullen
He was this guy was.
00:37:21:02 - 00:37:40:18
Speaker 3
But it's interesting, though, because that does contradict a little bit of what Herzog said earlier, which is what he describes, that he didn't know his lines so that he would pick it. So then he picks out the camera operator and says, he smirked, middle of the take. And I couldn't remember my line because as Herzog pretty much alludes to the fact that, no, the camera operator smirk, but he's looking for an excuse to make himself.
00:37:40:18 - 00:37:51:17
Speaker 3
So I wonder, you know, of course, Herzog doesn't push back on the photographer saying that Herzog, more so, agrees with him in that instance. But it does technically contradict the story that Herzog told earlier, which it's.
00:37:51:18 - 00:38:08:21
Clark
Likely all kind of right. You know, it's exactly it's it's all kind of part of this that, you know, of course, there's not just one. And that's what makes these things so interesting is that this is Herzog's it's Herzog's truth. But it's there's there is no objective truth. Kinski would have his truth. Herzog has his truth. This photographer has his truth.
00:38:08:21 - 00:38:31:09
Clark
And so it's that's where, you know, all the every every artist subject is a mirror where we we kind of see ourselves. And in the exploration of that subject and the communication of our viewpoint about it, we're basically revealing ourselves. That's what makes art so wonderful to me. And so that's where, you know, this film is really a film about Herzog.
00:38:31:16 - 00:38:45:05
Clark
It's really a film about him as a filmmaker and often in very literal ways, right? I mean, it's Herzog on camera talking about his experiences making films. Yes, challenges.
00:38:46:07 - 00:38:50:22
Speaker 3
But I do want to jump back to the way you what you said earlier, though, about, like, what would you do?
00:38:50:23 - 00:38:55:11
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. Let's go back to that. Yes. Because that was that was because this is important.
00:38:55:11 - 00:38:56:21
Clark
This is important, I think, you know.
00:38:56:23 - 00:39:02:12
Speaker 3
And so that's why I specified that the only time I've ever had difficulty with an actor to that level was that which was bring.
00:39:02:13 - 00:39:04:06
Cullen
Ourselves today to let down ourselves.
00:39:04:06 - 00:39:08:16
Clark
But let's bring ourselves you're on it. You're on a significant production. You know, let's say.
00:39:08:16 - 00:39:10:01
Speaker 3
Something like this happens. I mean.
00:39:10:01 - 00:39:12:07
Clark
Would you ever would you make the tradeoff?
00:39:12:07 - 00:39:39:11
Speaker 3
And no, I don't think I would do it. Yeah, I really I guess the easiest way to put it is that I have a very low tolerance for bullshit. Yeah. And, you know, clearly Herzog doesn't clearly, Herzog was able to put up with a lot to get his movie made. Yeah, but no, I would, you know, if I was Herzog and and my lead actor in the in the middle of the Peruvian Amazon decided that he was going to walk off set.
00:39:39:19 - 00:39:47:18
Speaker 3
I wouldn't have been like, I'm going to kill you. I was like, okay, go. Yeah. Scripts changed. Your character died on the water. And that's that's the story.
00:39:47:18 - 00:39:48:18
Cullen
I fell in the water.
00:39:48:18 - 00:39:51:23
Speaker 3
And so, like, and, and, you know, I mean, I know that sounds ridiculous. It sounds like you couldn't.
00:39:51:23 - 00:39:55:05
Cullen
Know, but I understand that you wouldn't put up, you know, does what you're saying. You know, I would.
00:39:55:05 - 00:40:09:20
Speaker 3
I would say go. You know, I yeah, I don't need I don't need that. And it was the same thing then when I was doing that thing when I was 13, where I was like I was ready to be like, I only need your hands. You can go. I can fill in for your hand. Sure, sure. So it was a very like, I really don't have.
00:40:10:01 - 00:40:12:12
Clark
I mean, you're an internet. I have a lot of model anyways, so.
00:40:12:13 - 00:40:12:21
Cullen
Exactly.
00:40:12:22 - 00:40:26:04
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's my these beautiful nails. Don't they have got not, not a lot of work through code but but, but no I think it's interesting that that Herzog did put up with that and I wonder if Herzog would put up with it with other people or if it was just.
00:40:26:11 - 00:40:27:21
Clark
He would do it now. And I think.
00:40:27:21 - 00:40:28:09
Cullen
There's a you.
00:40:28:09 - 00:40:44:22
Speaker 3
Know, there is certainly a specialty. You know, we want to kind of talk a little bit about in relation to this. Fitzcarraldo originally, of course, was starring Jason Roberts and Mick Cherry, Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stone. Yeah. And neither of them could continue the movie.
00:40:45:00 - 00:40:47:02
Cullen
So they got Robert. So they get sick.
00:40:47:06 - 00:40:52:07
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, they had to scrap that. And so fit. Mick Jagger's character was just scrapped entirely, taking.
00:40:52:07 - 00:40:53:05
Cullen
Over the movie, which is.
00:40:53:05 - 00:41:15:05
Clark
Interesting to note that that Herzog saw. I am a Rolling Stones fan. So for anybody who's doing Stones fan out there, it's interesting to note that at least according to Herzog, he did not replace Mick Jagger because he felt like his performance was outstanding and that he shouldn't, that he was unable to replace that character with another actor and Mick had to bail out because of scheduling conflicts.
00:41:15:05 - 00:41:20:13
Clark
There was either recording or touring going on. And of course, when Roberts got sick.
00:41:20:13 - 00:41:22:14
Speaker 3
I think it was a tour. I think it was. They were going on a tour.
00:41:22:14 - 00:41:23:10
Cullen
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:41:23:12 - 00:41:31:14
Clark
Likely going on a tour. And so yeah, so but they shot as far as I understand, I mean, like maybe two thirds or I mean yeah, they.
00:41:31:14 - 00:41:41:04
Speaker 3
Shot a lot of it and then, but then. Herzog So then at that point, Herzog says that he was looking at other actors and so, ah, what's his name?
00:41:42:11 - 00:41:44:12
Clark
I love what's his name? What's his name is.
00:41:44:19 - 00:41:51:05
Speaker 3
Actor of what's his name? Jack Nicholson. John Nicholson. Miles I think a John Nichols. Jack. I've met Jack Nicholson, too.
00:41:51:17 - 00:41:55:01
Clark
Jack Nicholson's very, very little known brother, John.
00:41:55:01 - 00:42:01:14
Speaker 3
In fact, in fact, Jack Nicholson was the actor I was dealing with when I was 13. But oh, that's great. And Herzog.
00:42:01:15 - 00:42:02:08
Cullen
So. So he was.
00:42:02:08 - 00:42:04:04
Clark
60. So he was. You were 13?
00:42:04:04 - 00:42:04:17
Speaker 3
Yes, I had.
00:42:05:10 - 00:42:08:03
Cullen
I had. And you were with the 60 old Jack, because.
00:42:08:03 - 00:42:11:11
Clark
Isn't he like 85 now? I mean, he's got to be quite old.
00:42:11:12 - 00:42:11:17
Cullen
Yeah.
00:42:12:00 - 00:42:30:10
Speaker 3
But but Herzog even considered doing it himself and playing Fitzcarraldo himself. But eventually Kinski was like, I knew that I was supposed to play it. But you look at the, you know, the point of my long ramblings here, you look at the shot of Jason Roberts playing Fitzcarraldo on top of the church tower, ringing the bell.
00:42:30:15 - 00:42:31:12
Cullen
Which that we're dreaming.
00:42:31:12 - 00:42:32:11
Speaker 3
I need an opera in.
00:42:32:11 - 00:42:39:01
Clark
Which Herzog which Herzog has in this film. Right. So, yes, there is that. There is a section where Herzog shows the original footage.
00:42:39:01 - 00:42:40:21
Speaker 3
Footage? Yeah. Which is really interesting.
00:42:40:21 - 00:42:54:11
Clark
It is. Of Mick Jagger and Jason Robards. There's this. He shows the scene where they're up in the church tower and and they're, say, Fitzcarraldo, saying, you know, give me my opera house. I'm shooting the church down until you give me my opera house. Right?
00:42:54:11 - 00:43:04:21
Speaker 3
And so you look at that and you but then it cuts to pretty much immediately like it's pretty much just a cut from scene to scene, cuts to Kinski doing the exact same scene. And there is such an energy with him.
00:43:05:00 - 00:43:06:14
Cullen
To this insane night.
00:43:06:23 - 00:43:17:23
Speaker 3
Pulling in magnetic performance by him. And so I can understand I can totally kind of empathize with Herzog in that way, where it's like he definitely is a special actor in that he.
00:43:17:23 - 00:43:18:22
Cullen
Was definitely he.
00:43:18:23 - 00:43:36:21
Speaker 3
Also again, Herzog also says that he enjoyed Mick Jagger And Robert, separately, he says, you know, that they were fine actors and but it's just there is this, you know, and here Herzog himself also never even makes that claim in the movie where he says that he doesn't even say that. He doesn't say that, like, look at the difference between the two performances.
00:43:36:21 - 00:43:38:00
Speaker 3
He just puts them beside himself.
00:43:38:03 - 00:43:51:07
Clark
He lets the images speak for themselves, I think. But but it's also I just want to point out to, you know, because I'm always questioning. I'm always questioning. Right. It's it is entirely feasible. And frankly, I would do this if I were the filmmaker.
00:43:51:09 - 00:43:52:06
Cullen
Yeah, it's entirely.
00:43:52:06 - 00:44:25:14
Clark
Feasible that he that Herzog took the worst take of Robert's to emphasize the contrast between the the take from the finished film of Kinski. Yeah. I mean, because this is right. That would be the quote unquote truth versus fact. The truth is Kinski was the only one for the job and the fates proved it. But and see, look how how, you know, compare Roberts to Kinski.
00:44:25:14 - 00:44:37:17
Clark
So I'm not saying Herzog did that. I have no proof that he did that. But I'm saying that in the context of everything we knew about Herzog, I've got to kind of assume I lean towards that. You know, that's very much a possibility, right?
00:44:37:23 - 00:44:38:08
Speaker 3
Yes.
00:44:38:09 - 00:44:53:02
Clark
Toto would would just you know, it just kind of like falls in line with so much of what he did. But but I want to go back to because I want to talk a little bit about that. You Know about what? What I think I might. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, you know, the answer for me is pretty simple, you know.
00:44:53:06 - 00:45:05:13
Clark
Now, when I was younger, though, when I was younger, I think that I would have been much more you know, I think, you know, I would have said all that matters is the film. And I know Herzog has said this numerous times.
00:45:05:13 - 00:45:07:19
Speaker 3
Oh, yeah. That this film is more important than our bodies.
00:45:07:19 - 00:45:29:23
Clark
Our film is more important. And I do have to say and for for purists out there, for you, true believers, for, you know, you soldiers of cinema who would die on the battlefield, on the front lines of film. You know, I do have to say right here and now that I would not sacrifice, you know, somebody's well-being. I wouldn't sacrifice my own.
00:45:29:23 - 00:45:58:19
Clark
And I wouldn't to the best of my ability. I would not put anyone in any kind of significant harm's way, certainly not consciously. And I would definitely not tolerate an actor or a crew person or anybody else treating somebody unprofessional unprofessionally on my set, much less treat people the way Herzog was, you know, allowed Kinski. I mean, frankly, because he did write, Herzog was the director.
00:45:59:02 - 00:46:18:03
Clark
Herzog is ultimately responsible. So there is this moral, ethical question. There really is. And for me, I would never make I mean, I just I can't imagine that I would make right. I guess never say never and you never know what you would do unless you're in a certain situation. I mean, to be fair.
00:46:18:10 - 00:46:26:04
Speaker 3
That's also important to note, too, that Herzog on Fitzcarraldo was the producer as well. So it's not like it's not a situation where some producer was like, this guy has to.
00:46:26:04 - 00:46:26:15
Cullen
Be in it.
00:46:26:15 - 00:46:43:14
Clark
Correct? Correct. Correct. Herzog had full control. He could have. Now, I don't know what their contractual agreement is. I mean, maybe, you know, but but the bottom line is, for the most part, we can assume that Herzog had control and he could have let Kinski go. But, you know, it's just not worth it for me. You know, life is too short and I love film.
00:46:43:14 - 00:47:03:23
Clark
And film is wonderful, but film is not life. There's a lot of things in life that are important and people's well-being is is more important to me at this stage of my life, at this stage of my career, you know? And I just I wouldn't I would not, because there's always another option. You may think there's not another option.
00:47:04:04 - 00:47:23:05
Clark
You may feel like, oh my God, there's nobody who could perform. There's just not there's just this just no way. And I don't think that way. I don't think that there's only one person that could do a job. There's one There's only one. Kinski Yes, but but there was there could have been a successful, effective film with another actor somehow.
00:47:23:16 - 00:47:39:05
Clark
There's just no way that I can believe that only one person could have done it. I just don't buy that. It may have been very difficult, may have been hard to do, may have taken five more years to find that person. I mean, you know, yes, it could have you know, could have been extreme difficulties and challenges with that.
00:47:39:12 - 00:48:11:02
Clark
But but at the same time, so at the same time, as much as I say that I wouldn't do this, you know, I certainly can understand and I certainly did think this way more when I was younger, you know, that, you know, what survives on film is something that lasts forever. And, you know, these temporary, fleeting challenges and insults that we face and the making of it are, at the end of the day, you know, small compared to what you know, this this, this like film, this art that lasts forever.
00:48:11:02 - 00:48:28:13
Clark
But but especially but with but just, you know, for me, I might be, you know, maybe I can put up with some. Right. If I choose if I choose to put up with somebody who's insulting me and berating me and treating me poorly, that's one thing. But if you have crew that are working there, if you have other actors that are working there and they don't have the choice, they didn't make the choice.
00:48:28:13 - 00:48:31:10
Clark
They didn't say, okay, I accept being.
00:48:31:14 - 00:48:33:01
Speaker 3
Especially the indigenous.
00:48:33:18 - 00:48:35:09
Cullen
People. Anybody? Anybody?
00:48:35:10 - 00:48:47:23
Clark
Yeah, anybody. Well, you know, they don't have the choice, right? You're creating an unsafe working environment for people. That's just that's unacceptable on multiple levels. It's unacceptable legally. It's unacceptable morally.
00:48:48:18 - 00:48:57:11
Speaker 3
And I mean, we know in Fitzcarraldo there's entire section on the Wikipedia page for deaths, injuries and accusations of X, Y and Z.
00:48:57:11 - 00:49:07:03
Clark
And that's a whole right. And that is a whole other discussion. It might be it might warrant down the road, you know, an episode all all in and of itself, not just.
00:49:07:12 - 00:49:10:09
Cullen
About the length of right but.
00:49:10:09 - 00:49:12:02
Speaker 3
About filmmakers take their work. Yeah.
00:49:12:05 - 00:49:35:18
Clark
And Herzog is definitely one of the you know, he will say time and time and time and time again he's very safe that he, you know, does not take extra risk just to take them. And I certainly think that he he believes that. And I think that in some ways that's true. But, you know, I think that he his philosophy of filmmaking doesn't leave him a lot of choices when it comes to things.
00:49:35:18 - 00:49:52:00
Clark
Right. Yeah. So in his mind, he's kind of like, well, I have to make the film and I and I can't find anybody else to make it than Kinski. So I will make it with Kinski, you know. So that's, that's kind of the calculus that goes on. He's like, Well, it's vital for me to pull a ship over a mountain.
00:49:52:00 - 00:50:07:19
Speaker 3
So and I mean, I guess I guess to compare again, because the whole thing is like, you know, what would we do? What what This is our careers and stuff. Yeah. I mean, again, I had a situation where I was doing a Western and the lead actor in the Western that I had the only person that was willing to do it because it wasn't paid.
00:50:07:19 - 00:50:29:04
Speaker 3
It was it was just me and some friends. The only person that was willing to do it had braces. And most of the movie he doesn't speak, so it wasn't an issue. But there is a dialog moment at the end and it's and you can see, you know, I did my best to hide them. But also at the end of the day, I was like, you're you're not going to not make the movie because somebody, you know, one of the actors braces, you know, am I going to go, okay, it can't be done.
00:50:29:05 - 00:50:31:04
Speaker 3
What am I just going to go out and make the movie?
00:50:31:11 - 00:50:31:22
Cullen
So in that.
00:50:31:23 - 00:50:46:21
Clark
Colon, I can't. You give me such great ideas. So I have a match. I'm imagining the scene. I'm okay. Imagine with me. Imagine with me, Imagine with me where it's you know, you've got Clint Eastwood, right? You know, let's say circa like when was good, bad.
00:50:47:02 - 00:50:47:22
Speaker 3
Like 67.
00:50:47:22 - 00:50:58:02
Clark
67, 68. You know, what he's wearing is like trademark hat and a poncho and everything. And he's got the the stubble and he's like, you know, you see him, He's like, you know, we have.
00:50:58:02 - 00:50:59:11
Speaker 3
A cigar in his mouth.
00:50:59:15 - 00:51:21:14
Clark
Well, right. Well, we like, you know, we're like, we see him, you know, you're like, we come in and we're we're like maybe like a close up on the horse, you know, or like a spurs. And we move up, we move up, and, you know, we're slowly revealing the character on the horse and maybe we see like a match, like strike, you know, the heel of his boot while we're down there and we follow the match up, You know, we're we're paying up.
00:51:21:21 - 00:51:34:13
Clark
You know, we're we're coming up. And and he's got one of those cigarillos in his mouth, you know, and he lights it. It's like Clint Eastwood like it, his most bad ass. And he removes the cigaret from his mouth and he has braces.
00:51:34:19 - 00:51:40:17
Speaker 3
I mean, it's also funny because that friend of mine, he's he he is older than he's five or six years older than me. So he's.
00:51:40:20 - 00:51:41:06
Cullen
Yeah.
00:51:41:06 - 00:51:56:00
Speaker 3
Much older. And originally the reason that he was cast and the reason wasn't an issue. He wasn't originally supposed to speak. The script just changed so much through the production of that movie that, that the ending wound up having him speak a few lines. And that's where you of course, you can see the braces.
00:51:56:13 - 00:51:57:11
Cullen
But that's you.
00:51:57:11 - 00:52:15:14
Clark
Can always, you know, and that's where it's like, I think that, you know, but what you're speaking to, it seems like we're off topic. But I think what you're saying is that, you know, look, film art is always a compromise and and and there is no such thing as some kind of ideological purity when it comes to filmmaking.
00:52:15:18 - 00:52:24:01
Clark
And it's okay to compromise. And it's certainly okay to take people's welfare and treatment into account and.
00:52:24:01 - 00:52:24:23
Speaker 3
Take them seriously.
00:52:24:23 - 00:52:28:01
Clark
And so so yeah, exactly. And you know.
00:52:28:02 - 00:52:28:14
Cullen
And I yeah.
00:52:28:22 - 00:52:46:11
Speaker 3
So I guess the point of that, the whole braces thing is just to say I'm okay putting up with that for a movie. And it's like if it, if that, you know, I don't really care the movie I'm not going to cancel the movie because something like that. But I wouldn't you know if that actor who has the braces, you know, of course I'm good friends with so he's not like that.
00:52:46:11 - 00:52:55:14
Speaker 3
But if he was to act like Kinski or even like a 10th of the way like Kinski during that production, then I wouldn't. Yeah, I would. I certainly wouldn't have done it then. I wouldn't have put up with that.
00:52:55:17 - 00:53:10:22
Clark
And let's and look, let's be realistic, too. You know, Herzog hasn't done that for 30 years. And, you know, he's not worked with somebody like that for 30 years. And the fact of the matter is, is that in today's day and age, there's no way in a million years you're going to get away with that. From a legal perspective, it's just not going to happen.
00:53:10:22 - 00:53:23:00
Clark
So hopefully, you know, there are more pressures in place to keep people from acting like that to begin with, and I think that's a good thing. So. Wow. Well.
00:53:23:09 - 00:53:23:22
Speaker 3
That's a great.
00:53:23:22 - 00:53:26:05
Cullen
Episode. That note. Yeah, it's very.
00:53:26:05 - 00:53:30:01
Speaker 3
Interesting about filmmaking. I think that much like the movie though, but it's like, you know.
00:53:30:06 - 00:53:30:12
Cullen
It's.
00:53:30:19 - 00:53:35:21
Speaker 3
Sort of more about a filmmaking kind of angle than just the movie itself.
00:53:35:22 - 00:53:42:09
Clark
Which which I feel like you can categorize. So many of his films kind of in a strange way as as that, right?
00:53:42:09 - 00:53:43:20
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, totally.
00:53:43:20 - 00:54:08:22
Clark
That so? All right. Well, I really enjoyed as always. I completely enjoyed this conversation. Yeah, it was a blast covering this film. I hadn't seen it in a long time and it was it was fantastic revisiting this and then kind of even, you know, pulling some of the issues that that that this film brings up and kind of bringing them into the modern day and discussing them as yes to how they may affect our own filmmaking or how we might deal with them ourselves.
00:54:08:22 - 00:54:16:12
Clark
I hope other people have found that to be interesting. So I've really enjoyed it as always. Cohen thank you so much for hanging out with me here.
00:54:16:15 - 00:54:17:20
Cullen
Thanks for having me along.
00:54:17:21 - 00:54:28:08
Clark
And until next time, everybody will catch you. On the flip side.