Cullen
Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I'm Cullen McFater. And join, of course, again by Clark Coffey.
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Clark
How are you? I'm doing well. How are you?
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Cullen
I'm great. We are back for episode 24 where we are going to be discussing Grizzly Man.
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Clark
Which is Grizzly Man.
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Cullen
Not only one of my favorite Herzog's, but one of the first ones I think I ever saw off of BioShock.
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Clark
Is it really? Okay. Wow. You know, I can't. I would not be able for the life of me to think of the first film that I ever saw of Herzog's, I. I really, honestly don't know. I can say this, though. You know, probably the first, you know, film or two or maybe even few that I saw of Herzog's, I really did not know kind of anything about Herzog.
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Clark
So the first films of his that I saw didn't have didn't carry a lot of the weight, if you will, of that I bring in to, you know, when I watch a Herzog film now, because, of course, I'm so familiar with Herzog, it comes with so much additional stuff, you know, behind the film.
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Cullen
It's a good.
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Clark
Point. But but yeah, I mean.
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Cullen
Grizzly Man is a of course, a documentary if you haven't seen it. Right. About Timothy Treadwell, who was known as the sort of grizzly man who spent 13 super summers like.
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Clark
Yeah, the 13th. 13 summers out up in Alaska. Yeah.
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Cullen
Yeah. Basically filming these grizzly bears. Right. And I don't think he had a camera with him for all of them.
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Clark
I think. No, his.
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Cullen
Last few ones that he brought the camera up to.
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Clark
Right there, it's my understanding that I think they touch on this a little bit, not much in the film, actually, but in some research that I've done outside of the film. I think you're right. I think when he you know, and Treadwell is a subject, we can discuss that a little bit here right off the bat. It's so it is such an interesting person is personality.
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Clark
And, you know, Herzog has such a gift, I think, for recognizing unique individuals. And Treadwell is certainly one of them. Yeah. And approaching those subjects, though, in a way that, at least to me, I never feel like Herzog's being exploitive. Hmm. And I never feel like he's not. He's disrespecting the subject. I Yeah. You know, so I think it would be very easy for some other filmmakers.
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Cullen
Fighting back against studio pressure to do things that Herzog.
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Clark
Often feel. Yeah, absolutely. And we'll talk about that a little later. About how. Right, Exactly. But I think Herzog shows a lot of respect and a place where you could be if you were a less sensitive filmmaker or a less sympathetic filmmaker. I think you might. You know, some people could might have a tendency to kind of, I guess, for lack of a better term, make fun of Treadwell.
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Clark
But I mean, definitely an interesting guy. You're like you said, you know, he spent 13 summers, I think it was out in Alaska in the total wilderness alone, you know, camping often on, you know, in like Bear Lake right next to bear sites. And yeah, take.
00:03:04:17 - 00:03:05:14
Cullen
A bear maze.
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Clark
Like the most dangerous places that you could ever do this. And I mean any but like, you know, like, no, but like the Forest Service, everybody would tell you, like, you're crazy. Don't camp like that. You know, you've got to have an electrified bear fence and you've got to have a weapon and you've got, you know, and he had none of those things.
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Clark
But but apparently he'll he built up to it like, you're right, he didn't bring a camera for the first few years because, like, he was actually learning. This is a guy who grew up in Long Beach. He wanted to be an actor. Yeah. He went through a lot of challenges personally, which they cover in the film. He had suffered from alcoholism, drug abuse, and they had a lot of problems.
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Clark
Fitting in, felt isolated. Seems to me like it sounds like he didn't have much purpose in life.
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Cullen
Yeah, exactly.
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Clark
And and he found this is his purpose. Or maybe, you know, he kind of manufactured or fabricated this purpose, which we're going to talk a little bit about. Right. Was he actually really helping these bears who a lot of people don't think so, but it was for his own kind of internal desires that he was out there. But yeah, once he got to acclimated to the to the camping into the wilderness and learn how to be around these bears, he started filming everything.
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Clark
Hmm. And I think Herzog says that there was 100 hours of footage. Yeah. He actually went through and edited for this, which.
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Cullen
Is much more than Herzog usually.
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Clark
Shoots. All right. But it's it it's it's interesting to know. And that's I think that's there had to this has to be unique in that way. Yeah especially yeah. Yeah. Is that Herzog is totally against shooting extra coverage. He is completely about being very specific with his shooting and his ratios are always, you know, much, much less. So, you know, to have 100 hours of footage to go through an edit for Herzog, that's completely different.
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Clark
Of course, it's footage that somebody else shot as well. Yeah. But he uses incredibly well.
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Cullen
I think that that's one of the things we've noticed is that he hangs on things that I think other directors would skim over cuts. Yeah. And he kind of I think it almost uses the fact that there is so much footage and such a volume of footage to his advantage. And, you know, just taking things of, you know, Treadwell showing Treadwell enter frame as opposed to starting him in frame and starting his conversation.
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Clark
Right.
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Cullen
And of course, I mean, in case I think we've made it clear. But of course, Treadwell was killed in his last summer.
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Clark
Right.
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Cullen
Tragically, with. Yeah, another person there, his girlfriend at the time. And I actually that's one of the points that I do want to make kind of getting into this is is a difference in Herzog's style of filmmaking, which is that Herzog doesn't obscure that. It's not a movie where you spend most of the movie thinking that this guy is, you know, Oh my God, this guy's crazy.
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Cullen
He's out in the woods, What's going to happen? And then at the end you find out, Oh my God, he's dead, right? And killed. It's something that very early on that movie, it's clear that he's dead instead of the opening scene.
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Clark
Instantly opening scene, which is great. I mean, I think that.
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Cullen
That's something that is. So I had actually a conversation with somebody recently about sort of that specific thing because I had watched a Netflix documentary on on True Crime documentary on a murder, basically true crime murder thing. Mm hmm. And I didn't like it at all because I thought that it was exploitative in the way that it presented the facts.
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Cullen
It obscured things until the end to keep the audience guessing and to. Sure.
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Clark
Which happens a lot. Right.
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Cullen
And somebody I was watching or somebody else that had watched it at the same time, I'm not directly at the same time, but around the same time I was talking with and they said, you know, but that that's kind of what you have to do with that instance to keep it interesting and to keep people guessing and to keep like that's how you keep people in.
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Cullen
Mm hmm. And I think this is a perfect example of like that. That's not true. That you don't need to keep someone guessing on when you die. Will he live? You know you don't want to misrepresents the the that sequence of events too.
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Clark
That's such a gripping interesting and that is such a great point. And I think you know that's that's a real difference that illustrates such a significant philosophical philosophical difference from Herzog as opposed to so many other people. Yeah. Obviously, the director of this this movie or television show that is on Netflix. But, you know, that's a difference between, you know, Herzog treating Treadwell as and we'll talk about this as a as a kind of a kinship, right?
00:07:22:01 - 00:07:38:17
Clark
Mm hmm. Especially as as filmmakers, as I think as how as how Herzog looks at this subject. But but this is the way Herzog treats all of his subjects instead of making the plot the thing that's supposed to keep the audience members, you know, on the edge of their seats, which is what you're describing in this Netflix flick.
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Clark
Yeah. Stuff, right? It's like, oh, does he live? Does he die? And look, there's nothing wrong with that. But that's never how Herzog approaches these things. Herzog stories are always, from a plot perspective, extremely simple. He never makes convoluted plots, puts convoluted plots in his films because that's just not what they're about.
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Cullen
Because, I mean, even like, that's a great point. If you had to describe someone in a sentence, okay, what's Grizzly Man about? I mean, my answer wouldn't be what the plot was about. It would be about what the movie set or what the the documentary is saying, what it's what it's.
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Clark
Telling about the human condition, which is what every single.
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Cullen
If I had to be like. It's about a guy that goes to Alaska and then another filmmaker who is felt like that's that's technically what the plot is. It's about Herzog following up after Treadwell's death with what knew Treadwell. But there's no information revealed. There's no, like, you know, grand thing where it's like this conspiracy about, Oh, my God.
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Cullen
Treadwell was almost on Cheers, and.
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Clark
I'm so grateful for that. And yeah, exactly for that, because that is the bulk of what we see. Yes, it is. And it's the.
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Cullen
Easiest way to do it. Of course.
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Clark
The easiest way to do it. Yeah.
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Cullen
So and I think that Herzog doesn't really show interest in doing it is the easy way. He shows an interest in doing it the the most.
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Clark
The way that means interest to him.
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Cullen
Enlightening way. Yeah.
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Clark
Yeah. And so I mean so that's what we touched on it just briefly there, but let's dive into this idea a little bit more. You know, I think the world at large would see Treadwell as, you know, maybe a lot of different things, but not as a filmmaker. No. And it's so interesting that Herzog that's exactly how he is treating.
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Cullen
Yeah, that's what he refers to him as for most of the movie.
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Clark
Right. And I find this so fascinating because I think that, you know, we can use this kind of comparison, if you will, to compare and contrast Treadwell and Herzog and their filmmaking styles and even the commentary Herzog himself provides in the film about Treadwell as a filmmaker to kind of, you know, look into what it means to be a filmmaker in a different approaches to filmmaking.
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Clark
It's it's amazing. I mean, and, you know, right off the bat and we've talked about this Cohen a few times when we did our episodes on the Masterclass. But Herzog is 100%, without any doubt against being a fly on the wall, right? I mean, he's got his Minnesota, I forget what is it the Minnesota like? It's almost like his Ten Commandments, right?
00:10:04:19 - 00:10:06:20
Clark
You know, Yeah. Where he's involved.
00:10:07:00 - 00:10:08:01
Cullen
In it, that stings.
00:10:08:04 - 00:10:09:23
Clark
A hornet that stings, not a fly on the wall.
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Cullen
I mean, he even in direct reference to this movie in an interview about it, says that, you know, being a fly on the wall is like being a camera in a bank. Yeah. That you could wait ten years for a robbery and never know and never.
00:10:22:03 - 00:10:25:01
Clark
Have anything on film, you know, And I think and that to me.
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Cullen
The first time I've seen this movie a few times and the first few times I've seen it, I never really thought about that because Herzog is so about in that that I've I've never made the connection between being a fly on the wall or a hornet that stings. And then this whole other idea of what is truth versus fact and that that you realize while watching this movie that they're so intertwined that that that that Herzog I think his point where he says that Treadwell crosses the line is when Treadwell crosses the line beyond being a hornet that stings and turning into fabricating and not fabricating just for the sake of telling a larger truth.
00:11:02:19 - 00:11:28:05
Cullen
As we've discussed before in our episode on Family Romance and things like that. But rather fabricating to tell something that's completely not true. Right. And fabricating to to present an idea that that has no basis in reality, that is fantasy and it's purely fantasy. And that's what you kind of realize with Treadwell is that he built this fantasy for himself around this, like, happy kind of idea of, you know, he's friends with the bears.
00:11:28:05 - 00:11:38:13
Cullen
The bears are all friends that he's here. And then but he did not want to acknowledge he didn't want to face the truth of nature, which is that it's cruel, that it's chaotic. And that's that's the beauty.
00:11:38:13 - 00:11:41:13
Clark
That's certainly that's certainly. HERZOG Yeah, Yeah. That's and when I.
00:11:41:13 - 00:12:05:05
Cullen
Looked at nature, I think I agree with Herzog on that, which is that part of the beauty of nature is the chaos and the yeah, and the, the the, you know, the sadness and the tragedy within nature. And so there's moments here where, of course, as bears do, you know, they'll like an adult male bear will kill a cub to prevent the mother bear from lactating and thus making sure that she's ready to mate again.
00:12:05:15 - 00:12:27:18
Cullen
And Treadwell, just like, could not handle that. He couldn't. Yeah, it didn't fit within his worldview. And I think that so again, that really goes into this whole connection of all these ideas that Herzog talks about that I really never connected before, which is just, again, this idea of truth versus fact. You can't as a filmmaker, and especially not as a documentary filmmaker, you you can't dislike the material that you're getting.
00:12:27:18 - 00:12:36:17
Cullen
Like you can't look at this these this nature and the cruelty of nature and go, no, no, no, that's not what this is. I'm going to show a different side of it and I'm going to make up a good point.
00:12:37:01 - 00:13:13:16
Clark
That's a good point. Well, I mean, I think it follows, you know, Treadwell just as a as he's represented here. Obviously, neither one of us ever knew him personally. And so to make comment on him as a full human being would be impossible for us to do. But, I mean, just some of the things they're presented to us about him in in this film and some of the information that's available about him out there in the world, I mean, there's there's definitely this trend, right, of him kind of running away from, you know, maybe some truths about himself and about the world and fabricating things.
00:13:13:16 - 00:13:38:20
Clark
There's a really interesting story in the film or a scene in the film where Herzog's interviewing his parents and his parents are telling a story about how Treadwell was, like, runner up. So it just, you know, almost had Woody Harrelson Woody Harrelson's role in Cheers. And I think I don't have any proof for this, but I'm going to speculate that that is a fabrication.
00:13:39:03 - 00:14:00:03
Clark
That is not even close to true, because the likelihood of someone with absolutely no resumé, you know, being runner up for a series lead in a network series, primetime series is pretty close to zero. But yeah, it just you know, I think, you know, time after time we see that that he was it could be very diluted.
00:14:00:06 - 00:14:14:00
Cullen
And even well, even on a very basic level, we've been referring to him as Treadwell. His name in reality was Timothy William Dexter, that he changed that name. Whether that was a kind of working name for his acting or whether he changed it when he went to Alaska and kind of figured that it was like.
00:14:14:12 - 00:14:14:16
Clark
A bit.
00:14:14:16 - 00:14:16:09
Cullen
More nature and mysterious kind of thing.
00:14:16:09 - 00:14:34:08
Clark
But and the fact that he thought, you know, he thought that he was in this park protecting these bears from people when in fact, they were already in they were in nature. These bears were protected from people. He you know, so the kind of the fundamental crux of why he said he was there was just not exactly true.
00:14:34:08 - 00:14:40:07
Clark
You know, I think he fabricated, you know, his relationship with the park and this whole like and.
00:14:40:08 - 00:14:59:03
Cullen
It's a self-defense prophecy. Yeah, it's it's this this idea that you have to like when you do when you are dependent on that side of your life and you're so dependent on knowing that you need to be there for these bears, then you're going to do anything to justify their. So his justification for that was telling people that these bears were under attack, that he right was there.
00:14:59:03 - 00:15:16:06
Cullen
But it because in reality it was very much more likely you know, not to speculate again on things that we don't know. But but I my read of it kind of like, you know, my psychological breakdown if you're right right. So to say, yeah. Is that he was there for himself. For himself. Yeah. He wasn't there for the bears.
00:15:16:06 - 00:15:17:15
Cullen
He was there to, you know.
00:15:17:21 - 00:15:18:12
Clark
And that's who was.
00:15:18:12 - 00:15:19:09
Cullen
Self fulfilling.
00:15:19:17 - 00:15:43:06
Clark
And to be fair and to be fair to Treadwell, I think that we all do this. I think that, you know, that we, we give ourselves purpose in life. I totally don't. You know, I personally think that, you know, whatever purpose we feel like we have is purpose that we've given ourselves, we've kind of decided our own minds and hearts that this is important and we're going to dedicate ourselves to it.
00:15:43:12 - 00:15:46:22
Clark
And that helps us make it through the suffering that is life.
00:15:46:22 - 00:16:04:19
Cullen
And I think that Herzog would agree with you completely. And again, I think that that's where it comes to this point of like, okay, then he crosses a line. Yeah, I think that's when it becomes this, you know, I have no I think it's a bit odd, but I have no nothing against somebody going out and living in Alaska with bears and spending.
00:16:05:00 - 00:16:14:04
Cullen
But at the point when you, you know, as Herzog says, and that there's a moment where he's is trouble comes out and he's he's cursing the the the park rangers and he's been.
00:16:14:05 - 00:16:14:19
Clark
Guy named.
00:16:14:19 - 00:16:34:09
Cullen
Altering. Yeah. He's mentioning their names and he's altering things like he's trying to build passageways to the salmon and get up and things like that. And it becomes at that point then you're interfering with you're no longer observing, you're no longer trying to be part of nature. You're now trying to control it and to play God in a scenario in such a wild land, essentially.
00:16:34:09 - 00:16:59:04
Cullen
Right. And I think that that's where to me as well, and I'm sure that you felt the same way, is that that's where to me it's like it goes from somebody justifying or giving themselves justification, giving them some some themselves purpose in life to now being lost in that purpose diluted and being so fearful of losing that purpose that you have to alter things to to preserve it.
00:16:59:05 - 00:16:59:14
Clark
Yeah.
00:17:00:01 - 00:17:19:04
Cullen
And I think that's really it's like a super interesting thing. You know, I, I have no to me watching this movie, there's never a point where I have any ill will towards Treadwell, where I go like, he's a bad person or he's, you know, I think he's someone who had a troubling, troubling childhood and teenage years that were, you know, filled with drug use and alcohol abuse and things like that.
00:17:19:04 - 00:17:33:07
Cullen
And then I think that he found what he wanted. But I think a lot of people who have those troubling pasts. Right. It was never enough. It was almost it became the new drug for him. Right. Which is, you know, poetic in a lot of ways. That that.
00:17:33:20 - 00:17:34:22
Clark
I think that's he's sort of.
00:17:34:22 - 00:17:37:11
Cullen
Overdosed on it bears.
00:17:37:15 - 00:18:14:12
Clark
Sadly yeah I laugh but I don't I mean I totally agree and I think you know, you mentioned this earlier. I mean, you know, Herzog often talks about right in accountant's Truth sorry, accountants facts and and a truth and facts don't make truth and I think you're right. This is a good example where, you know, because Herzog himself we'll talk about this later when we get to the footage, the interviews, the footage that Herzog actually shot, you know, but Herzog is always manipulating his his cut, his everything, every aspect of his films, his documentaries are manipulated.
00:18:14:12 - 00:18:29:22
Clark
He goes out his out of his way to say that that's what he's doing. I mean, there's never a question. So I don't think it's not that The issue was that that Treadwell was, you know, doing multiple takes. It wasn't that he was kind of manufacturing scenarios or.
00:18:30:00 - 00:18:32:00
Cullen
Even pretending to be alone, like even.
00:18:32:00 - 00:18:33:05
Clark
That to be ultimately.
00:18:33:05 - 00:18:33:15
Cullen
Harmless.
00:18:33:15 - 00:19:04:09
Clark
Yeah, right. But but you're right. I think, though, he moved away from. Okay. And kind of playing with facts to get to a deeper truth. Yeah, he's actually missing the truth now. Yeah. And that and but of course. And this parallels the, you know, the unfortunate reality. I mean, he also crossed a line of thinking that that bears were going to somehow become friendly with him and not be wild and somehow be tamed to his presence and that somehow he had some power over them.
00:19:04:09 - 00:19:18:11
Clark
And of course, the reality is, is that there is nothing further from the truth. Those bears were likely barely tolerating his presence and ultimately, of course, ended up tearing his poor body limb from limb. And I mean, I think that's what's interesting is you.
00:19:18:11 - 00:19:38:18
Cullen
See all these moments of and it reminds me a lot of working with with kids, especially young kids, not to, you know, demean him, but but there's this there's this very, you know, adrenaline kind of response that he has when a bear will challenge you. And he sort of stands up, says, no, no, no, and sort of stands up, and then the bear clearly on its own will just go, this isn't worth it, walks away.
00:19:38:21 - 00:19:43:06
Cullen
And then he turns around and sort of shapes that, as you see, like, I can do this right?
00:19:43:06 - 00:19:47:02
Clark
That was all me believed it. I know that himself. And that's why I.
00:19:47:02 - 00:20:00:12
Cullen
Reference that thing of like when it's when I'm dealing with kids and something like that happens and it's, you know, if a kid wants to use the force and then a draft, a wind comes along and blows a piece of paper off the desk and it's like, Yeah, I just did that. And it's, you know, as a kid, you may actually believe that.
00:20:00:12 - 00:20:08:21
Cullen
And which gets us into that's fun. You know, there's definitely something of, you know, a case of Arrested Development with with the law as well, that there's this there's this.
00:20:09:03 - 00:20:31:03
Clark
Searching for childlike qualities about him, about And there's no question I want to go back to something, though, that you'd sure that we'd brought up and kind of got off on a couple of things. But I think it's I find it fascinating. So let's go back to the very first scene that we've got in this film and we talked about Fly on the Wall, and I was mentioning that this is something that Herzog absolutely speaks against.
00:20:31:03 - 00:20:53:18
Clark
It's not a philosophy he agrees with, but it's literally one of the first things that Fred says, I love this. So we've got you know what? We've got this this landscape, right? Treadwell set up the camera. And like you were saying, Herzog leaves the ends on and I love this, whether it's his footage or the way he edited Treadwell's footage, you know, we this this, this shot opens kind of before Treadwell walks in.
00:20:53:21 - 00:21:13:06
Clark
So we've got Treadwell's entrance, and then, you know, Treadwell's doing his thing, and. And then we keep it rolling after he's left. And you hear the kind of the commentary that Treadwell makes on his own, quote, unquote, performance, or, you know, something unexpected happens. And it's the exact same way that I think Herzog would edit his own fitted footage, which, of course, makes total sense.
00:21:13:06 - 00:21:38:01
Clark
I think he absolutely treated this footage as if he had shot it. But I love that he does that because so many filmmakers I could see in the hands of other filmmakers, they would have cut off all those ends. They would have taken all that air out and it would have been so much more just ABCD plot and we would have had a lot shorter takes and we would have had a lot less of that magic that Herzog speaks to.
00:21:38:01 - 00:21:59:18
Clark
And he talks about it specifically in this film. But, but I love the fact that Herzog leaves this end where Treadwell says, You know, Treadwell is like, you know, I'm here and I'm observing these bears, and I'm like, it's like I'm a fly on the wall. And it's funny that he mentions that. But but even though he does, I don't think that's actually at all.
00:21:59:18 - 00:22:13:16
Clark
I think Treadwell actually totally misrepresents what he's doing there. No, he makes I think he wants people to think that he's a fly on the wall. But of course he's not. He is actively engaged and manipulating and interacting with and then.
00:22:13:17 - 00:22:14:06
Cullen
Interfering.
00:22:14:06 - 00:22:35:13
Clark
With and interfering with and setting up. I mean, there's no question. Yeah, there's no question. So I think Herzog you know, we look at Herzog as a filmmaker at kind of almost like working as a co-director with Treadwell, if you really I think we can really kind of say that here. It's so interesting to compare and contrast them as filmmakers, You know, I mean, I.
00:22:35:13 - 00:23:06:19
Cullen
Think that that imagine one of the things that I actually thought and I forgot to mention this earlier, but yeah, while I was watching, it was like imagining if Herzog were the one that was going out to make a documentary on grizzly bears. MM How would his footage differ from what Treadwell was shooting? Which I think is super interesting because to me, it would be again, Herzog wouldn't if Herzog saw that this that again, I keep going back to this example, but it's a very direct example of travel interfering with nature, which is that salmon, you know, clearing the rocks for the salmon to go off.
00:23:06:19 - 00:23:07:01
Clark
Right.
00:23:07:05 - 00:23:16:04
Cullen
Herzog saw something like that and saw that the bears were starving at the up, you know, upstream and that they were eating their own young because they were starving. Herzog Would take that, at least to me.
00:23:16:09 - 00:23:18:07
Clark
Okay. What do you imagine that he.
00:23:18:07 - 00:23:32:09
Cullen
Would take that opportunity to show the cruelty and the chaos and the uncertainty of life and death in nature? Right. And go, you know, look at how you know, without a doubt it's tragic. I don't want to see bears eating their young. That's very sad. Bear cubs are very cute.
00:23:32:13 - 00:23:32:21
Clark
Yeah.
00:23:33:07 - 00:23:38:00
Cullen
But at the same time, there's something that it's one of those things that's like the hard lessons of life that make the rest.
00:23:38:00 - 00:24:02:09
Clark
It's the truth. It's true. It's like life is hard. Life is suffering. Yes. Everything dies. Things are dying all the time around us. And, you know, I mean, even if we extrapolate it from that, let's be frank, you know, capturing the reality of those bears condition would likely have had a greater positive impact in the direction that that that Treadwell was trying to take this stuff anyway.
00:24:02:09 - 00:24:26:16
Clark
Right? Yeah, exactly. He's trying to, you know, illuminate people and to the plight of the bear. And there shrinking habitat. And as you know, climate change and impacts their ability to eat, etc., etc.. I mean, frankly, capturing the reality of it might actually have if he really, truly if his was desire was to try to bring more attention, that probably would have been more effective.
00:24:26:16 - 00:24:48:12
Clark
But of course it's not what he did and it shows. Interesting question, though. Yeah. To think I mean, I think Herzog would have in many ways shot this very similar to the way. Yeah well did now Yeah. Obviously there's there's just a tremendous amount of difference say you know as we've discussed several times, I think their philosophies are fundamentally different in a lot of ways, but there are a lot of similarities, you know?
00:24:48:12 - 00:25:21:23
Cullen
Yeah. And I think Herzog knows that. I think that's one of the reasons Herzog absolutely do this. I also think it's interesting, though, because, you know, talking about this idea of that it would have brought more attention to the bears, that there is also a level of hypocrisy where it's like acclimatizing bears to to be around human beings like Treadwell would have been by not moving his campsite, you know, a mile each night and things like that over after, you know, consecutive seven days of camping or whatever the rule is, which is to protect the bears from being acclimatized to humans.
00:25:23:06 - 00:25:37:09
Cullen
By that, he's doing a lot of damage to these bears. That's, you know, it's one of these things where it's like, yeah, what do we say? I don't want a bear to ever be killed because of me. Like, if a bear kills me, just leave it. But it he knows. You know, you've got to know in your heart that if a bear kills a person, that there has to be found and killed.
00:25:37:12 - 00:25:38:02
Clark
Yeah, that's.
00:25:38:04 - 00:25:58:12
Cullen
The same that if. If a shark kills somebody from surfing, that that shark has to be hunted down and killed just by law because it's now, you know, tasted human. And how who knows what else is going to happen. So when you so as he as a environmentalist is really doing incredible environmental damage by allowing these bears to get used to him a human being around.
00:25:58:15 - 00:26:02:03
Cullen
Right. Because then they're more likely to attack another human.
00:26:02:08 - 00:26:02:23
Clark
Well, they're no.
00:26:02:23 - 00:26:05:20
Cullen
Longer fearful that they are curious. And, you.
00:26:05:20 - 00:26:29:23
Clark
Know, well, let's get controversial. Horrible. Okay. Let me take this to some place. So we're kind of, you know, using this film to kind of, you know, obviously, Herzog saw Treadwell as a filmmaker. And and let's examine that and take that take an interesting approach here. So you talk about Treadwell's impact on his environment, right? We can. That's basically in general, is what you're saying.
00:26:30:05 - 00:26:49:04
Clark
Well, I have a thought here because I've had to stop before. I mean, look at Herzog's history making films. You could easily argue that in many of his films. And let's just take Fitzcarraldo, for example, because I think it's the easiest example to take care. Look at the impact that Herzog had on his environment and surroundings steering that film.
00:26:49:13 - 00:27:17:00
Clark
Yeah, you know, you talk about it. Treadwell, You know, familiarizing, desensitizing bears to humans. And of course, you know, ultimately he was eaten and at least two bears were killed because of that. You know, all kinds of things here at But Herzog closed down a section of the Amazon jungle and totally deforms the landscape. People are injured. I think there was even wasn't there either?
00:27:17:12 - 00:27:19:19
Clark
I don't to speak out of turn, but wasn't someone who.
00:27:19:19 - 00:27:22:05
Cullen
Tells a story about a guy cutting off his leg to take.
00:27:22:10 - 00:27:41:13
Clark
Off his leg. And I mean, we have like tribal fights and, you know, it's a totally just totally a disruptive presence. Yeah. In these tribes in this area completely disrupts this area for a film. Now, I'm not going to make a judgment call on, is it is it bad or was it good? Should you do this? Should you not?
00:27:41:13 - 00:27:45:11
Clark
But just comparing the facts here, I mean, I think a lot of it.
00:27:45:11 - 00:27:59:01
Cullen
To the point of for me, the point where the hypocrisy comes up is is intent. You know, had Herzog made a movie about saving trees and in the process of saving trees and bulldozed and in clear cut an entire.
00:27:59:01 - 00:27:59:13
Clark
Section.
00:27:59:19 - 00:28:01:04
Cullen
Of you know, to make his movie.
00:28:01:04 - 00:28:02:08
Clark
Then right then.
00:28:02:08 - 00:28:03:07
Cullen
To me. Yeah that would.
00:28:03:07 - 00:28:05:11
Clark
Be so that's you're right that's a different element.
00:28:05:11 - 00:28:10:13
Cullen
Whereas, you know, because Treadwell is making this movie about or you know, I don't know what he was going to wind up doing with the footage.
00:28:10:13 - 00:28:11:09
Clark
Yeah, but who knows?
00:28:11:20 - 00:28:19:06
Cullen
Because his goal there is to protect bears and that right. But the irony in doing so is that he's he's likely actively harming.
00:28:19:06 - 00:28:42:00
Clark
So that's a good point there is that difference right there. Herzog never said I'm going to go. I'm going out here to protect the Amazon. He said, I'm going out here to make a movie. So that's certainly a difference. But on some level, there's definitely there is some similarity. And I think there's another interesting similarity, too. And let's just I'll go ahead and just take Fitzcarraldo to to use as an example for this comparison as well.
00:28:42:06 - 00:29:03:10
Clark
You know, I mean, look, regardless of what you think about this guy, it's extraordinary. TREADWELL It's extraordinary that he could spend 13 summers out in the Alaskan wilderness by himself for most of it. I mean, they and they talk about it in the film like, you know, the pilot that would fly him back and forth said, hey, this guy was a lot smarter than people give him credit for.
00:29:03:10 - 00:29:22:08
Clark
Yeah. And and I've read a lot of articles about this guy. You know, there's a very, very, very small percentage of people who could have done what he did survive the survival elements out. I mean, that like this is a physicality. And that's what I want to talk about, the physicality of this, to be in the landscape, to be that dedicated.
00:29:22:08 - 00:30:00:14
Clark
Right, Regardless of kind of how Mr. directed your, you know, your motivation might be. I mean, the fact remains is that he really put himself out there physically. This was a seriously profound endeavor. And I think for Herzog really films his movies the same way. Yeah, there's an absolute athleticism and physicality to Herzog's filmmaking. And I mean, again, with with Fitzcarraldo literally taking a steamship up over that hill and actually doing it for real, I you know, he's one of the only or maybe is the only director to have made a film on all seven continents.
00:30:00:14 - 00:30:25:23
Clark
I mean, you know, the the physical city with which Herzog makes films is just extraordinary, especially in his older age. The way he throws himself into these landscapes, these real places. Never on a set, never in a studio. I mean, I think I think certainly Herzog saw a kinship to Treadwell in that regard. It's certainly a comparison that stood out very, very sharply to me.
00:30:25:23 - 00:30:26:13
Cullen
Absolutely.
00:30:26:13 - 00:30:27:20
Clark
Yeah. Well, yeah.
00:30:27:20 - 00:30:40:00
Cullen
And one of the notes that I made while I was watching was just that it's not that Treadwell is an insane hippie, that there's like a balance that he didn't strike that got him killed. But there's also something really spectacular about these, like, rare relationships with nature that.
00:30:40:00 - 00:30:42:00
Clark
For sure had extraordinary.
00:30:42:00 - 00:30:53:21
Cullen
People. And then again, that's what the tragedy is, is that there was this spectacular, extraordinary gift that wound up being, you know, abruptly ended because of this, because he crossed the line, because.
00:30:54:02 - 00:31:21:08
Clark
And it's such and that's a such a good point, because it's easy for us to be like, well, he crossed a line. But but often that line is really it's fluid and it's often really hard to see. And Isaac Herzog does a good job of of showing both sides of this where, you know, we really see some extraordinarily beautiful moments, Like you said, the foxes that have become so used to Treadwell that they're almost like a pet to him.
00:31:21:09 - 00:31:23:16
Cullen
Yeah, it comes and it brings its pet cubs to him.
00:31:23:16 - 00:31:24:04
Clark
Yeah.
00:31:24:04 - 00:31:25:09
Cullen
And plays around and.
00:31:25:09 - 00:31:49:04
Clark
All is speaking to your. It's likely that he was probably feeding them. So which goes even further to your argument that, you know, his, his, his presence was actually doing these animals harm versus good. But but you're right. There's these really touching, really beautiful moments. And I think any of us would be charmed by that possibility and and mean Herzog even presented in this film.
00:31:49:04 - 00:32:09:10
Clark
And look how many people cross this line regularly. Look how many people just with their own pets cross these lines, this this, you know, human versus nature or this is our, you know, to be close to wildness or to think that you can tame wildness, but you can't. Yeah. Just think that we have power over so many things.
00:32:09:10 - 00:32:14:16
Clark
I mean, just with dogs, look how many people are injured with their own pet dogs.
00:32:14:16 - 00:32:26:16
Cullen
And do you know what I think the proof of it of of Herzog's, you know, almost admiration for Treadwell is the disappointment in his voice when he does come to that point where he says the crossing of the line.
00:32:26:18 - 00:32:27:03
Clark
Yeah.
00:32:27:07 - 00:32:30:02
Cullen
You know, Herzog genuinely sounds disappointed.
00:32:30:02 - 00:32:31:14
Clark
That this guy is.
00:32:31:14 - 00:32:33:00
Cullen
Doing such an incredible.
00:32:33:12 - 00:32:34:01
Clark
Thing.
00:32:34:01 - 00:32:54:23
Cullen
And now, you know, and now he's crossed. Like that's that's. Herzog sounds genuinely he doesn't sound like he's just going like, yeah, the guy crossed the line and that he deserved he was saying he sounds Herzog more sounds like he's mourning up and saying that, you know, yeah. The unfortunate aspect of this is that he had such a brilliant thing going and then decided to cross this line that, as you said, was probably very fluid and probably grave to you.
00:32:54:23 - 00:33:09:22
Clark
Don't even know if it was you know, I'll add to that a little bit and maybe from a different perspective. I don't know if it was so much the that that Herzog thought he had a good thing going. I don't know. I didn't ever get a sense from this film that Herzog approved. Oh, yes. Yeah. Of of of this overall idea, right?
00:33:09:22 - 00:33:43:16
Clark
Yeah. That that this guy spending summers in Alaska was was the greatest idea. But I think when Herzog looked through 100 hours of his footage and he saw so many as these really beautiful moments, you know, and the idea that this story really encapsulated like the beauty, but also the like, you know, the her as her gaze, Herzog actually says it's he thought that this contained such like, beautiful human ecstasy, but also the darkest turmoil.
00:33:44:21 - 00:34:02:06
Clark
And and I want to draw a correlation here. I just I thought of this earlier and it just came back to me again, you know, in the masterclasses. I think it's one of the first classes. Herzog talks about some required reading. And I've heard Herzog speak to this book in the master class and a lot of other places as well.
00:34:02:06 - 00:34:35:21
Clark
So it's clearly something that's important to Herzog, but to Peregrine, and I've read the Peregrine Herzog recommends it to everyone. You probably did. But for those who haven't read it, it's a really wonderful book. I highly recommend that you pick it up. It's basically about a man in England who spends a lot of time watching a peregrine out near his home and in very similar way that Treadwell does here, the man starts to almost become one.
00:34:36:03 - 00:34:37:00
Cullen
To sign a fire.
00:34:37:00 - 00:35:05:06
Clark
It almost meld with the peregrine to become peregrine. Yeah. While he's writing this book, we you get a sense you can feel that this human that is this is turning into or becoming one with the subject of his art the peregrine and it's absolutely just a beautiful a beautiful, beautiful book And again I highly recommend you pick it up if you haven't read it.
00:35:06:00 - 00:35:11:03
Clark
And I think Herzog recognizes that this is happening here. If you indulge me for a moment.
00:35:11:03 - 00:35:12:11
Cullen
I think that's a really good point. Yeah.
00:35:12:17 - 00:35:41:04
Clark
That Treadwell is morphing into the subject is turning Bear becoming one with. And I think that this is what all artists do if if you're really firing on all cylinders with your work, if you're really present, if you're really there, that's what artists do. You become one with your subject. It's an exercise of your empathetic muscles. And that's the whole point, you know.
00:35:41:08 - 00:35:59:17
Clark
Now sometimes this is a great illustration of, you know, with the peregrine well, this guy didn't end up trying to jump off a building and swoop down and catch some prey and then die. You know, he he cut this off at a place. You know, there was still a boundary there that was healthy. The guy didn't do anything like that with Treadwell.
00:35:59:17 - 00:36:22:21
Clark
He went too far. Mm hmm. But but it's. But but regardless, I think it's such an important aspect of being an artist and of being a filmmaker. And I think Herzog really, I think if I obviously I can't speak for him, but my hunch is that that really spoke to Herzog, that he felt a kinship with that experience.
00:36:23:03 - 00:36:38:05
Clark
And I'm sure. Cullen, You've had the same thing, whether you were writing or making a film that you really feel like you're you're you're on fire when you can hardly tell the difference between yourself and the subject. Yeah, I know.
00:36:38:12 - 00:36:39:10
Cullen
That's a really good point.
00:36:39:21 - 00:36:55:09
Clark
And so, I mean, I think that there's a you know, we talk about Treadwell not being, you know, ridiculed or exploited and and I know how much that book means to Herzog. And I think this is a really wonderful example of that.
00:36:55:15 - 00:37:08:06
Cullen
Yeah, totally. So, yeah. And then, of course there's I mean, I guess perhaps to to go on a different note here. There's the music in this movie is different than most of Herzog's other movies.
00:37:08:08 - 00:37:08:16
Clark
Okay.
00:37:09:00 - 00:37:19:23
Cullen
Richard, Richard Thompson is the person that did the music and it's very much more of a like an acoustic again, I said very guitar.
00:37:20:12 - 00:37:21:04
Clark
Like an acoustic.
00:37:21:09 - 00:37:43:12
Cullen
But one thing that was interesting was that we before we recorded today, we were discussing, you know, maybe like why Herzog chose to go with its different route. And again, I would just I'd be guessing here. But one of the things that I speculated was that perhaps Herzog was using this music to score Treadwell's movie and not to score his own movie.
00:37:43:17 - 00:37:45:14
Clark
MM That's it. So I thought that was.
00:37:45:14 - 00:37:55:14
Cullen
Kind of a, you know, perhaps, you know, of course I've got no proof to back it up, but there's no quotes based on that. But I think that that would to me at least be, you know, I could see it being a.
00:37:55:14 - 00:37:56:00
Clark
Resort.
00:37:56:08 - 00:38:17:03
Cullen
Because it's not to me, you know, it's not just a location. It's not just the fact that it's shot in in Alaska, Alaska, because Herzog shot things all over the place and not used music from those specific I mean, even in Nosferatu, like we talked about last week, there's like acoustic sounding stuff in Nosferatu that doesn't really fit with this Bavarian feel, but it works right?
00:38:17:03 - 00:38:24:19
Clark
When we're on the journey to Dracula's castle, there's a kind of out of place feeling almost like seventies acoustic guitar kind of thing.
00:38:24:21 - 00:38:42:05
Cullen
So Herzog's definitely not, not beyond, you know, using music that he likes. That's not necessarily fitting with the subject matter that actually winds up just working in general, right? So I think to me at least, that's kind of where I get this feeling that it's like he was getting someone to score Treadwell's film.
00:38:42:12 - 00:38:44:10
Clark
Well, that's so yeah.
00:38:44:16 - 00:38:48:02
Cullen
Like, I think that would be an interesting I'd love to ask him one day if I had the chance.
00:38:48:02 - 00:38:59:13
Clark
Yeah, Yeah. Well, that's a really interesting thought. And, you know, speaking of music too, you know, I really felt like the final song of the film was extremely effective. That was Don Edwards Coyotes. Yeah.
00:39:00:00 - 00:39:01:12
Cullen
As he walks off with his fox.
00:39:01:18 - 00:39:39:11
Clark
And it was you, right? It reminded me of the penguin encounters. Of course, we know that Treadwell dies, and this final shot kind of almost is like the walking, you know, to his demise, to the sunset kind of thing. Very like bittersweet or frankly, just maybe full on sad, but but a beautiful song and likely I'm going to guess likely staged that where the the pilot who would drop off and pick up Treadwell in Alaska when the season was over added his own line and Treadwell is gone.
00:39:39:11 - 00:39:43:16
Clark
Yeah like really sad and you'd think it mentioned you felt like it was kind of What did I.
00:39:43:17 - 00:39:47:06
Cullen
Think It's almost to me it felt it gave me a sentimental feeling.
00:39:47:09 - 00:39:49:00
Clark
Yeah, maybe more mental than.
00:39:49:04 - 00:40:00:13
Cullen
Almost a feeling. Like. Like. And I know you said that you got the encounters feeling, but to me, I almost saw it as like this. This idea that, you know, I don't know if Herzog's religious or not or what he believes in any spirituality, but.
00:40:00:17 - 00:40:00:23
Clark
Yeah.
00:40:01:04 - 00:40:25:21
Cullen
It's like to me it was just the image of him walking off with the foxes was like, he's still there. Like there's this element of and especially since they put his ashes right where those fox dens were. Yeah, I think it's interesting too that there's the final moment. So the, I think the final footage that, that Treadwell actually appears in Herzog kind of recounts he appears as though he's hesitant to leave the frame.
00:40:25:22 - 00:40:33:22
Cullen
Yeah. That he's sort of standing there and it's rainy and it's windy and it's stuff like that. And it's not a very nice day. So it's like it's I think it's like 3 hours before he was killed.
00:40:34:01 - 00:40:34:07
Clark
Yeah.
00:40:34:08 - 00:40:42:23
Cullen
That he took that, that footage. Yeah. But it does kind of look, you know like he is hesitant to leave it that. Yeah. That he.
00:40:43:04 - 00:41:13:02
Clark
Well that's such a weird, you know I really like this, you know, I think I like this idea and, and it reminds me, you know, landscapes are such a vital aspect of Herzog's films. I mean, over and over and over. Herzog talks about the importance of finding new imagery, of finding landscapes that represent landscapes of the soul. And he he mentions that very specifically in this film.
00:41:13:02 - 00:41:21:14
Clark
I think there's that there's a scene where there's like these ice fields that are jagged and broken up. And and this is footage that Herzog.
00:41:21:16 - 00:41:24:17
Cullen
Right over his bay, too. Right over the bay that Treadwell said.
00:41:24:18 - 00:41:50:22
Clark
Right, right. And he you know, and Herzog wonders aloud if this landscape represented the inner landscape of Treadwell. So and you talk about the impermanence of Treadwell, and we know he's gone. And of course, Herzog knows that he's mortal and he's getting older. And of course, we all know that we are mortal. And like Treadwell diluted himself with a few things that we discussed.
00:41:50:22 - 00:42:13:07
Clark
Well, we all delude ourselves. And on a daily basis, we usually, most of us kind of delude ourselves into thinking that we won't die. And I think, you know, I had a thought and this is just, you know, my own kind of thinking about why landscapes might be so important to Herzog. Or at least this is the feeling that I get from them.
00:42:14:00 - 00:42:38:11
Clark
You know, I think for most of us, when you go outside and you're you're you're somewhere in nature and you see this extraordinary landscape, it's never something that we articulate explicitly, Right. You know, But we feel this this we're inspired with with such an all that fills us up when we look out into that horizon. Right. It's almost overwhelming.
00:42:38:11 - 00:43:08:15
Clark
Sometimes. And I wonder, you know, what is it about these mountains or the sky or the sun or the clouds or the rivers or the plains, you know, I mean, it could be so many different things. What is it about that that causes us such pause? And I wonder if it's because on some level, like deep, deep, deep primordial level, we we kind of recognize that these natural landscapes stand in such permanence relative to our fleeting nature.
00:43:08:15 - 00:43:34:11
Clark
Yeah. And that they kind of connect us through time because they're, they're always to those who to all who've ever been and to all who ever will be. And in a way, we're kind of in this little weird way, kind of connected to this human consciousness that, you know, of all the people who've ever seen this and felt this when they've looked at what you're looking at.
00:43:34:11 - 00:43:59:04
Clark
We feel kind of a connectivity, too. Mm hmm. I don't know. It was just a thought that I had as I was watching this film and knowing that her landscapes are so important. And, yeah, you know, he really touches on that in this film. And clearly Treadwell was motivated to put himself in this all inspiring landscape that was alien to him, at least at first.
00:43:59:05 - 00:44:01:07
Clark
You know, I don't know.
00:44:01:17 - 00:44:19:08
Cullen
I mean, I think it's also that that goes right in hand with a note that you had written, which was just about that the that be almost because of the way that Herzog edits Treadwell's footage and leaves like these long kind of openings without Treadwell being in it that yeah Treadwell appears much more natural in the landscape like he like that.
00:44:19:08 - 00:44:23:00
Cullen
It's almost like a trail cam that disguised as walking by. It could be a part of it.
00:44:23:00 - 00:44:23:08
Clark
Yeah.
00:44:23:13 - 00:44:24:10
Cullen
You know, it sounds funny.
00:44:24:16 - 00:44:26:16
Clark
No, no, I. But. But. Yeah, but it does.
00:44:26:16 - 00:44:34:07
Cullen
It does almost give that impression that, like, Treadwell is, is a part of this landscape that. Yeah, it's a bizarre feeling, you know.
00:44:34:12 - 00:45:06:06
Clark
And I think that's, that's an interesting point whereas you know of course we'll never know. It would be so interesting to it, but it's interesting to imagine how would Treadwell have edited this? Yeah, clear. Clearly. Clearly he would have. I mean, almost certainly make a hypothesis, you know, he would have edited out a lot of the stuff that Herzog was actually most interested in, which was that, you know, before his take and after his where he was commenting on his own performance and and where these kind of magical in Herzog's words, things were happening.
00:45:06:06 - 00:45:25:08
Clark
Accident totally right outside of frame or in, you know, coming into frame. I think, you know, Treadwell would have likely cut a lot of those things out because he was he would have been encumbered by his own ego and would not have wanted to represent himself so vulnerably. Whereas, of course, Herzog did see him as part of the landscape.
00:45:25:08 - 00:45:52:08
Clark
That was the whole right, that he was a part of this whole experience, just that, you know, the Fox and the Bear or Treadwell or the Mountains or that that landscape, they were all were part of what Herzog was exploring with this film. And and so I agree, I think he edited it in a way that really represented that well and highlighted that aspect, I think.
00:45:52:08 - 00:46:11:13
Clark
Let's talk a little bit about you know, so we talked about, you know, so much of this 100 hours of film shot by Treadwell and maybe what, you know, I don't have an exact ratio, but I mean, what maybe a third of this was footage Herzog shot, interviews, maybe roughly. And let's talk about that a little bit, because I think it's really interesting.
00:46:11:19 - 00:46:49:04
Clark
You know, I want to hear what what your sense was. But my sense I immediately I and as somebody who's watched most of Herzog's films and I've, you know, read a lot from Herzog and watched a lot of his Q&A is I mean, I know that Herzog manipulates his interviews. This is there's just no question. But it seemed especially obvious here to me that all the interviews here, whether it was with, you know, his actor Treadwell's, actor friend or the coroner, that these were clearly rehearsed, clearly staged, clearly set up and kind took on a different tone than you would almost ever see in a documentary film.
00:46:49:04 - 00:46:51:01
Clark
Did you get that sense right off? Yeah, no, totally.
00:46:51:01 - 00:46:59:07
Cullen
That that it feels much more like a retelling. Like when you see one of those like almost like a court retelling of someone.
00:46:59:07 - 00:47:00:21
Clark
Right. Like a legislation.
00:47:00:21 - 00:47:04:09
Cullen
Almost. Yeah. Dramatization. Exactly. That. That's what to me, it felt like Oh.
00:47:04:11 - 00:47:05:03
Clark
Yeah that's.
00:47:05:03 - 00:47:24:18
Cullen
A rather than someone recount like and I think that that's, you know I think that's totally intentional that it seems less like Herzog was. I don't think Herzog wanted to have them like the coroner when he's discussing the things that could have happened, things that he thought when he came in with the when he had the box full of what are literally body parts.
00:47:25:01 - 00:47:37:04
Cullen
And Herzog wants him sitting there going, you know, and I was just telling this, like, heart wrenching story about I was I was much more interesting, interested about clarity of what that person thought and what they felt.
00:47:37:09 - 00:47:38:05
Clark
Well, and we noted.
00:47:38:06 - 00:47:38:18
Cullen
Treadwell.
00:47:39:00 - 00:47:58:09
Clark
In the Masterclass and one of the master class, Herzog actually talks very specifically about this film and about this scene. And he talks about how he had to kind of stop that coroner and said, okay, yeah, whoa, whoa, You know, I don't need an accountant's retelling of the facts I let I want to understand, you know, what's the heart of this?
00:47:58:09 - 00:48:09:01
Clark
What did this mean to you? How did this make you feel? And, you know, who knows how many times he worked with the coroner to kind of get that quote unquote performance ironed out? Yeah.
00:48:09:16 - 00:48:14:02
Cullen
But we do know, again, like you said, that we know that Herzog rehearses with interview.
00:48:14:02 - 00:48:15:14
Clark
Subject and you can certainly see them as.
00:48:15:14 - 00:48:16:01
Cullen
Actors.
00:48:16:01 - 00:48:32:16
Clark
Yeah, absolutely. And I and I don't disagree with him. I think, you know, all of us I know I've been there with you and we've documentary stuff, you know, and this goes back to the fly on the wall thing. If you just set up a camera and you sit somebody down in front of it, you know, it's unlikely that you're going to get some great stuff.
00:48:32:16 - 00:48:49:09
Clark
You know, you have to massage that. You have to work that story and you you have to hone in on it and you have to be an active participant as a filmmaker. You can't just a camera in front of somebody and say, all right, well, you know, we'll just roll for a few hours and let's see if we get something we can edit together.
00:48:49:09 - 00:48:54:15
Clark
So, you know, I completely agree with Herzog. It's just seems especially obvious here.
00:48:55:02 - 00:49:06:02
Cullen
And even just the fact, like everyone in these interviews is primarily looking at the camera. Oh, that's exception of the one moment when he listens to the tape of Treadwell's death and is actually, Oh, that's on camera.
00:49:06:02 - 00:49:07:13
Clark
But but most of the.
00:49:07:18 - 00:49:16:09
Cullen
Yeah, but most yeah, most of the interviews. Do people like the camera's floating. It's handheld and people are kind of talking directly to it. There's a female channels, but.
00:49:16:14 - 00:49:17:00
Clark
Mostly.
00:49:17:00 - 00:49:19:09
Cullen
People primarily are talking directly to the camera. Yeah, well.
00:49:19:09 - 00:49:20:10
Clark
That's interesting about that.
00:49:20:10 - 00:49:27:18
Cullen
Moment of Yeah. Where he's listening to. Of course one of Treadwell's close friends has the tape of his jaw.
00:49:27:23 - 00:49:28:14
Clark
So he's never.
00:49:28:14 - 00:49:29:03
Cullen
Listened to it.
00:49:29:08 - 00:49:46:01
Clark
Let's talk about that for a second, because I think this is this is a really great scene. And I think it's you know, it's a scene that has been that has transcended even the film. I think a lot of people are aware of this scene. Herzog's talked about it a lot. But just real quickly, in case you've not seen the film or it's been a while, let's just recap it real quickly.
00:49:46:01 - 00:50:17:18
Clark
So one of Treadwell's close friends, girlfriend, ex-girlfriend name is Jewel hasn't at the time that that Treadwell was killed by the bear, they had a camcorder with him, him and a woman. He was there with in Alaska. And they had it recording with the lens cap on. So there was audio of this unfortunate event, but no video. And Jewel had been the recipient of all of Treadwell's physical belongings after his death.
00:50:17:18 - 00:50:47:18
Clark
And so she had this tape and she had not listened to it yet. And boy, I don't blame her. I wouldn't either. But the studio knew that this this audio existed and was kind of pushing Herzog to include this in the film. Right. And I think Herzog found an extraordinarily creative and effective way to to not only make a good film, to have almost to sell the studio switches in like, I mean, almost Hitchcockian level of suspense in a documentary.
00:50:47:18 - 00:51:08:21
Clark
I mean, it's a fantastically compelling and effective seem just from a cinema perspective, but it actually also completely and totally respects Treadwell and the situation. And I mean, I think to have included any of that audio would have been horribly exploitive and would have undermined the effectiveness of the film. But I.
00:51:08:21 - 00:51:09:09
Cullen
Don't show the.
00:51:09:23 - 00:51:27:09
Clark
Right right. But I think a lot of filmmakers would have gone there. Right. You know, so so the way Herzog did it, which I think was just fantastic. So Herzog is actually one listening to the audio, but instead of the camera being on, Herzog stays in Herzog. It's got headphones on. So we can't hear it in the film and Jewel can't hear it.
00:51:27:09 - 00:51:51:06
Clark
Only Herzog can hear it. He's back. The audio, we don't see Herzog's reaction. We actually see Jules reaction to Herzog's reaction of the audio. Mm hmm. And it's just brilliant. Yeah, it's it's breathtakingly captivating. And so it just a great example of, you know, a really an amazing way to handle, you know, what could have been a really tough situation.
00:51:51:11 - 00:52:13:12
Clark
Yeah. And how, you know, I want to go back real quickly to you'd mentioned and I think I only kind of subconsciously recognized this but it didn't I didn't really process this consciously that you're right a lot of the interview subjects look directly in camera and you know most of the time right Most of the time, if you're doing an interview, you've got a subject who's on camera is looking to the interviewer off camera.
00:52:13:17 - 00:52:22:19
Clark
So the eyeline is not directly into camera because usually that's a little bit weird, right? When somebody is talking directly to camera, it kind of puts the audience in a place of like this person.
00:52:22:19 - 00:52:24:01
Cullen
Who breaks the fourth wall.
00:52:24:05 - 00:52:41:11
Clark
Breaks the fourth wall, right? And you're like, okay, this person is looking right at me. You know, it's like the only time you might use that. I mean, I in my head, I do that sometimes in my like, videography work, like for corporate work where let's say it's like the CEO is talking to, you know, all the employees of a company.
00:52:41:12 - 00:52:42:17
Clark
Yeah. Like and we.
00:52:42:17 - 00:52:45:22
Cullen
Built here a wonderful, you know, corporation that you know.
00:52:46:03 - 00:53:01:17
Clark
Yeah, yeah Yeah. And it's like but that's the point is that the CEO wants to talk directly to an audience and kind of have them feel like they're too. But it's very rarely something you would ever do in a film and you're completely right. And I'm curious like, what do you think was the the motive behind that?
00:53:02:00 - 00:53:10:16
Cullen
I think that there's there's a few things that jump into my mind are one, that because Treadwell talks to the camera the whole time that perhaps again there's this element of Herzog.
00:53:10:18 - 00:53:11:04
Clark
Yeah.
00:53:11:07 - 00:53:15:07
Cullen
Utilizing that and going okay then I'll have every single person in the movie.
00:53:15:12 - 00:53:15:23
Clark
Yeah the.
00:53:15:23 - 00:53:16:12
Cullen
Same way.
00:53:16:15 - 00:53:16:21
Clark
Yeah.
00:53:17:06 - 00:53:36:07
Cullen
I think also I think that that Herzog had shot, if I remember correctly, similar interviews in other movies. Yeah. Comment. I don't think any of them use it as much as this one but I've definitely right it I think too like into the abyss I think that there's a one or two maybe interviews with are actually talking to the camera.
00:53:36:12 - 00:53:38:02
Clark
I think you might be right. Yeah.
00:53:38:12 - 00:53:47:18
Cullen
And I think it's I mean it's a really interesting way to do it though, because a lot of the interviews in this movie aren't talking heads. They're, you know, the coroner standing in the the room.
00:53:47:18 - 00:53:48:15
Clark
Where all of the dialog.
00:53:48:16 - 00:54:01:22
Cullen
Autopsy's right. Is describing, you know, all the things and showing the box that, yes, it came in again. So there's like even the the you know, you're not sitting down with the pilot at his house. They are at the plane.
00:54:01:22 - 00:54:03:20
Clark
The plane where they're in the plane. Yeah.
00:54:03:21 - 00:54:12:15
Cullen
Yeah. And then they land and they go and he walks them up the path and says like, this is where the bear was. I ducked right here. The gunfire went over my head.
00:54:12:15 - 00:54:38:15
Clark
I mean, they literally go to where Treadwell was, where the bear had been killed, that had killed Treadwell. And there's literally bones there now. We'll never know where those actually the bones, did they? Yeah. You know, grab some bones from somewhere else. I mean, who knows, you know, But. But the point is, you're right. And I think it's a great a great lesson for documentary filmmakers to just kind of note is that Herzog never just has talking heads sitting in like a living room somewhere.
00:54:38:15 - 00:54:47:00
Clark
He always takes the interview subjects to where the event happened. And he's done this so many times before in other films and to great effect.
00:54:47:07 - 00:55:02:00
Cullen
And it's something that makes me really reflect on the work like I've done too. And it's, you know, thinking even back to when we were in California and we were shooting at that, that we shot at like a school of like magic is what it was called, the kind of like tarot cards and astrology and things like that.
00:55:02:00 - 00:55:18:05
Cullen
And I'm sorry, I just with this movie, I was thinking, you know, I wonder how different would have felt if we had shot that interview with someone standing and showing us the Yeah. All the elements of that, that school and things like that. And that's what I really like about Herzog, is that he can kind of make you think differently about what you know.
00:55:18:05 - 00:55:33:13
Cullen
I think that the stuff that we shot there was great. But I but it's interesting to think about, yeah. Like, what would it have been like if we had done that differently, if we had had rather than you, know, write an interview, kind of set up them talking about the actual because it was filled with like all these knickknacks and stuff.
00:55:33:22 - 00:55:56:18
Cullen
So, so I, yeah, it's, it's one of those things that I look at. Herzog is such an interesting documentary filmmaker because of that and people who haven't watched Herzog before, I think that's one of the more compelling elements about Herzog is that, you know, people that's one of the most common kind of pieces of feedback I get when someone says, like, Yeah, I watched Herzog movie is that it feels so different from other documentary feels.
00:55:57:14 - 00:56:02:17
Cullen
It just there's, you know, it's difficult to put into words but it definitely it's got its own thing.
00:56:02:17 - 00:56:25:19
Clark
It's got its own flavor going on. Yeah. And that's and and on that note, I mean that's, that's one of the reasons that we absolutely love Herzog, and it's one of the reasons we picked him and his films to discuss in this podcast because, you know, I think both of you agree he has a singular voice as a filmmaker, and the world of cinema is definitely better for having him in it.
00:56:25:19 - 00:56:31:10
Clark
So. All right. Well, I think, you know, we can wrap it up there. Yeah, I think.
00:56:31:10 - 00:56:31:23
Cullen
That was a great.
00:56:32:08 - 00:56:50:10
Clark
Yeah, absolutely. Well, a you know, this has been a blast. You know, I say this every time at the end of our like, but hey, man, I. Hey, I wouldn't do it if it wasn't fun, right? And it's grizzly. I love it. Yeah, absolutely. So I look forward to our next episode, which will we'll have to figure out what film we're going to we're going to do for next episode.
00:56:50:10 - 00:57:02:10
Clark
Yeah, that'll be a surprise. But I look forward to that and everybody out there listening, we hope that you've enjoyed this and thanks, Cullen, as always, for a great, you know, was a lot of fun. And till next time, everyone.
00:57:02:10 - 00:57:10:01
Cullen
Bye bye.