Clark
Hey, everybody. Welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. We are at episode 23 where we'll be discussing Nosferatu, the Vampire Herzog's 1979 film and as always with me today is Mr. Cullen McPhatter. What's up, dude? Hello.
00:00:31:10 - 00:00:35:15
Cullen
How are you? I'm good. No, you know, everything's very cold here, but, uh.
00:00:35:15 - 00:00:39:20
Clark
Yeah. What are we sitting at up there, temperature wise? Oh, we've got to do this. This is the Fahrenheit thing. Yeah.
00:00:41:17 - 00:00:46:12
Cullen
Let's see. See what it is today? Negative six Celsius today. Whoa.
00:00:46:12 - 00:01:03:06
Clark
Okay, Well, so I know that's. It's like in the twenties or something, right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I. You know, I haven't been outside yet today. I know. It's it's. It's kind of sad. It's 1:00 pm here today, and I've yet to be outside, but here we're sitting at a super comfortable 63 degrees, so.
00:01:03:07 - 00:01:04:05
Cullen
I prefer that it's.
00:01:04:07 - 00:01:20:08
Clark
Quite a bit of difference. Well maybe we could trade because I kind of miss Winter. You know, I grew up in the Midwest where we have winters. I guess that's easy to say though, when you don't have to deal with it. I don't I don't miss going outside and having my car door locks frozen, you know, and or things like that.
00:01:20:08 - 00:01:39:11
Clark
I definitely don't miss that. So anyway, but yeah, like I said, we're here to discuss Herzog's. I mean, I definitely consider this a masterpiece. I think many people would consider this to be one of Herzog's masterpieces, one of his greater works. Nosferatu The vampire from 1979.
00:01:39:19 - 00:01:41:12
Cullen
My personal favorite of his movies.
00:01:41:12 - 00:02:06:20
Clark
Okay, excellent. And it's one of my favorites. And it is. I think that it's the most beautiful film visually that he's ever made. And he's he's made some really beautiful films. But I think this film is just extraordinary and so to give a little context to this, you know, this film, it's not a remake, but I think I think it would be fair to say that this is an homage to Murnau's 1922 film Nosferatu.
00:02:07:19 - 00:02:26:21
Clark
And in listening to Herzog speak about this film, it's very clear that this is an extremely important film. I would say it's likely that this is one of the most important films for him as a filmmaker, and I've even heard him say that it wasn't until this film and it's not that he had he hadn't made many films before this.
00:02:26:21 - 00:02:48:00
Clark
I don't know how many films he'd made before this, but it's a lot. You know what? I don't even know. I don't want to say I'd be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a couple of dozen films he'd made before this one up until this point. But I've heard him say that he he didn't kind of know where he was as a filmmaker before this film and that after he made this film, he had he knew where he had been.
00:02:48:00 - 00:03:23:21
Clark
He knew where he was and he knew where he was going as a filmmaker. So and I know that that that it's an extremely important this connection that he had with Murnau's film. And to give a little context, I've heard Herzog speak to the fact that growing up in Germany and Bavaria and and becoming into film as a young adult, that he felt this this felt orphaned, that the entire generation of filmmakers directly before him were nonexistent in Germany because of World War Two for various reasons.
00:03:23:21 - 00:03:52:14
Clark
Either they had been employed willfully, willfully or unwillingly into the Nazi machine, or they had fled the country, or any number of things. But but that he felt like there were no there was not any father figure, so to speak, in film, and that he had to jump over that divide and go back even another generation. And and so this film was one that was particularly impactful to Herzog for that reason.
00:03:52:14 - 00:04:30:13
Clark
He felt like it was a it was a way to connect himself to his filmmaking ancestors, if you will, in Germany. Also, he felt that that the German culture and German film had been devastated by World War Two and by bite, frankly, by Nazis, and that had devastated the reputation and that their culture didn't feel valid anymore. And he wanted to go back to this time where German filmmaking and German culture meant something, and he wanted to create a connection to that and bring that in, you know, bring that back, that validity, that legitimacy of culture and film back to Germany.
00:04:30:13 - 00:04:51:10
Clark
So really, really an important film for him. I think he felt, you know, a lot was on this and it meant a lot to him. And, you know, to the point where I think we're all familiar. Are many of you are familiar. When he was a young filmmaker, Laurie Eisner was a really important figure to him. I think she was a German film critic, if I'm not mistaken.
00:04:51:10 - 00:05:18:18
Clark
A wrote quite a bit about German film and knew personally all of these the Fritz Lang and Murnau and other important Expressionism, German filmmakers. And he even invited her. She actually came to the set and was there for part of this. And that was very important. That's actually that's the person that he walked, I think Was it was it a thousand kilometers he walked to to quote unquote, keep her alive?
00:05:18:18 - 00:05:40:16
Clark
You know, it's like she was on her deathbed, apparently. And he said, no, you're not dying. I'm going to walk. I'm going to walk to you and you're going to stay alive because you know that I'm walking a thousand kilometers to to meet you. So you can't die. So clearly, a very important film for Herzog. And and to give even a little more context as I just go on and on here, Colin, thank you for being so patient in a word, just clap away.
00:05:41:16 - 00:06:08:16
Clark
But of course, Murnau's film in 22 was in a legal, if you will, remake of Bram Stoker's Dracula. He changed the names of all the characters, but was actually still successfully sued. And as part of that, that losing that lawsuit, he actually almost every real every print of this film was destroyed. And it's actually practically a miracle that we have this film at all anymore.
00:06:08:16 - 00:06:31:20
Clark
Thank you. Yes. Yeah. Thank goodness only a few prints survived. And so we were able to, you know, restorers were able to piece together a complete print. And now, thankfully, in the digital age, you have ready access to it from anywhere. But I think that context is extremely important to understand. And, you know, Herzog says himself and I agree, I I'm so removed from what that might feel like.
00:06:32:02 - 00:06:57:02
Clark
He's like, unless you're German, it's very difficult to comprehend what that felt like to feel. So orphaned, to not have any of the previous generation of filmmakers be there, to mentor you or to inspire you. You know, this total void that existed. And so I think this was his way to kind of bridge that gap and to feel connected to his culture and ancestors.
00:06:57:02 - 00:07:15:21
Cullen
So the German film industry is, to me, one of the most interesting, both because of the movies that have been made throughout its history, but also because the context in which they were made. I wrote a paper in high school like in my Grade 12 history class when I was back in high school on specifically the effects of World War One.
00:07:16:12 - 00:07:35:03
Cullen
But what's so interesting about the German industry is so you have World War One end and you have all these movies being made in Germany, despite the fact that there are power outages and these power outages led them to paint, you know, shadows on sets and use these huge shadows. And everything was dark in high contrast because they couldn't power the lights.
00:07:35:09 - 00:07:55:21
Cullen
So that's where this German expressionism comes from. And so you have a decade of that of economic turmoil and them struggling to make movies through, you know, with no money and no power and succeeding, you know, brilliantly. And then you have the decade of, you know, prior to World War One of the Nazi rise where, you know, people are being killed and imprisoned and stuff for speaking out against the regime.
00:07:55:21 - 00:08:18:10
Cullen
And then, of course, you have World War Two where, you know, you've got people even more people being killed, of course, and this huge clampdown on any dissenting voices or even just artists in general. You know, like you didn't even have to be dissenting. You just had to make art that wasn't necessarily approved by the regime. And then you go post World War Two and you get to the Cold War where the countries split in half.
00:08:18:12 - 00:08:30:00
Cullen
Yeah. Which actually does apply slightly to this movie. We were talked about this a bit earlier, but the cinematographer was arrested for trying to get his friend across. So we got this in.
00:08:30:00 - 00:08:30:11
Clark
The Berlin.
00:08:30:11 - 00:09:00:07
Cullen
History of, you know, potentially the most, you know, put under pressure country for film in history. And a lot of what there is there's never been, you know, until very recently until like the past two decades maybe there's never really been a stable period of of filmmaking in Germany, which I think is so. And it's remarkable that you have all these German movies that came out of those, like tumultuous times that are still brilliant, you know, Herzog being one of the masters of their.
00:09:00:07 - 00:09:24:05
Cullen
But you get women vendors who was also part of that German new wave. And then you have movies like Nosferatu, which show that like there was this perseverance for German filmmakers, kind of in spite of all that the hardships, they still made these masterpieces and perhaps, you know, perhaps because of the hardships they made these masterpieces. And they you know, that that, as they say, like only the strong survive.
00:09:24:05 - 00:09:26:00
Cullen
You know, perhaps it was this like me.
00:09:26:00 - 00:09:28:05
Clark
I feel like you should have said that in Herzog's voice.
00:09:28:05 - 00:09:41:04
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. But. Yeah, but, but perhaps there was this need to overcome those odds. Yeah. And so that these filmmakers kind of knew that they had to make something truly amazing and they had to really, you know, pull out all the stops to to create these, these masterpieces.
00:09:41:04 - 00:10:01:15
Clark
It's an extremely rich, you know. And I didn't know some of these things prior to preparing for this podcast. And I think, yes, it's it's extremely vital to understand. I mean, look at every work of arts, culture and history is vital to, you know, to fully understanding it. Of course, you can appreciate the film on its own without knowing any of these things.
00:10:01:15 - 00:10:02:05
Clark
Absolutely.
00:10:02:08 - 00:10:02:20
Cullen
Yeah.
00:10:02:20 - 00:10:29:04
Clark
But I think as you know, as you kind of dig deeper, you do enrich in your understanding for sure. And so maybe this is a good place. We can talk about some of the comparisons to Murnau's film. They were made, you know what, almost 60 years apart. Yeah. So filmmaking had changed quite a bit. And a couple immediate differences that you can see is that, of course Herzog's film is sound and is filmed in color.
00:10:29:04 - 00:10:50:23
Clark
So he decided to go color as opposed to black and white. So those are two significant technical differences. Right off the bat, that film had the medium had progressed technologically quite a bit in those almost 60 years. But there's some other really interesting changes, too, although, you know, I think from a plot perspective, the vast majority of the plot is pretty much 0.4..
00:10:51:11 - 00:10:54:09
Cullen
There are some slight differences. And of course, the ending is kind.
00:10:54:09 - 00:10:56:18
Clark
Of now the ending is significantly different. Right.
00:10:57:04 - 00:10:59:07
Cullen
But perhaps that's Herzog commenting on it as well.
00:10:59:07 - 00:11:00:04
Clark
As could be of.
00:11:00:05 - 00:11:02:11
Cullen
His. Yeah. Cynical kind of take on the baby.
00:11:02:11 - 00:11:28:11
Clark
So yeah because then so in in Murnau's film we have that Lucy does and I'll just refer to it these characters in the names that they had here in Herzog's film. But, but Lucy sacrifices herself to kill Count Dracula, and then in Herzog's film, he finally he has his name again, because we didn't have those those copyright issues anymore.
00:11:28:12 - 00:11:30:03
Cullen
Lock in 22, correct?
00:11:30:03 - 00:11:56:14
Clark
Right. So Herzog goes back to Count Dracula, although it's interesting, some people do think that his name is Nosferatu. Yeah, but which is we it seems to be the origin of that word is maybe like an ancient Romanian word for vampire, roughly translated kind of. But she sacrifices herself and Count Dracula is killed. He's kept past the sun rising.
00:11:57:07 - 00:12:31:07
Clark
And then we have her husband, Jonathan Harker, just in the original film, just being he's alive and he's mourning her loss. But in Herzog's remake, a much more cynical ending, if you will. He's actually Lucy still dies, sacrifices herself. Count Dracula is killed by the sun, but we have Jonathan Harker being turned into a vampire. And in a really beautiful scene here at the end, we've got him, you know, commanding his his servant to, you know, get his horse.
00:12:31:07 - 00:12:35:18
Clark
He has got much work to do. And he and he flies off on his horse.
00:12:35:18 - 00:12:41:16
Cullen
And my favorite shot in the whole movie. Oh, it's shot him riding off. And you've got of course, he's changed into the dark.
00:12:41:18 - 00:12:42:07
Clark
Yes.
00:12:42:07 - 00:12:44:16
Cullen
Cape instead of like yellowish one. Yeah.
00:12:44:20 - 00:13:06:18
Clark
And it's a it's an interesting little I guess you could call it a special effect scene there that shot. But we've got this really beautiful these it's not even dunes. It's like a sandy plane It's perfectly way And you've got this, this, this sand coming across and these beautiful waves. And then he is a double exposure where he's got the clouds from a different from a storm.
00:13:06:18 - 00:13:15:03
Clark
I think he said it was flipped upside down and then run at high speed. Yeah. So it's a very you looks brilliant.
00:13:15:07 - 00:13:16:10
Cullen
It's it's a really great shot.
00:13:16:10 - 00:13:35:07
Clark
It really is beautiful and good and there are so many good shots. So we're going to we're going to get to that some more. But I think that, you know, for me at least, the only other difference that I that really stood out to me was was how different Count Dracula is in Herzog's film, Herzog's film, as opposed to Murnau's film in 22, I think, and Murnau's film to me at least.
00:13:35:07 - 00:13:58:09
Clark
It seems that the Count Orlok and that film is is much less complex of a character. He's kind of just this embodiment of evil, maybe even like insect like, or, you know, you know, we don't really get any kind of sense of complexity for him. But Kinski's Count Dracula, I mean, we really get a sense of his suffering.
00:13:58:17 - 00:13:59:17
Cullen
It's more tragic.
00:13:59:18 - 00:14:18:07
Clark
It's much more tragic where, you know, he's he's in suffering, he's in isolation. He can't die. And he you know, he's talks about this like, you know, the profound ness of a thousand Nights I can't ever Die. There's no release from from this suffering. And it's it's through Lucy that he sees this purity, that he sees.
00:14:18:08 - 00:14:19:01
Cullen
Salvation.
00:14:19:05 - 00:14:38:11
Clark
That he can. Right. That he can be it at the very least released from this suffering and Right. Maybe even achieve some kind of so salvation. So you get a sense of of longing and suffering. Human quality is in Herzog's Count Dracula as opposed to this kind of just evil all of Murnau's. Yeah.
00:14:38:11 - 00:15:06:20
Cullen
This embodiment. Yeah. Yeah. So which is and it's interesting too, because you can even, like, get it right down to the moment where the locket is seen with Lucy's photo and it's just there's, there's, it's, it's the same, you know, idea, but the difference in like the subtext is there. Yeah, it's a much more of a longing of a passion for the Kinski version than it is for this, this bloodlust that seems to kind of overtake the the Max Schreck, you know.
00:15:07:04 - 00:15:33:07
Clark
And and not to say I mean, Schreck hit his Count Dracula or like was was just the physicality was such a powerful template the Kinski almost copies that verbatim frankly here the physicality is just in both performances is outstanding. But I think Kinski does bring this tragedy, this just this this like profound suffering.
00:15:33:09 - 00:15:35:00
Cullen
There's just a depth to it. There's just.
00:15:35:00 - 00:15:35:10
Clark
A greater.
00:15:35:10 - 00:15:43:22
Cullen
Depth. You know, there's there's a it's not you know, I don't I don't want to say it's one dimensional in the 22 movie because I love the 22 movie. I think it's it's incredible.
00:15:43:22 - 00:15:47:21
Clark
Sometimes it's okay to be one dimensional to let's just say that's not it's much more.
00:15:48:00 - 00:16:11:21
Cullen
Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, it's also I mean it's also you you take the period it was made in movies weren't necessarily, you know, enriched with depth and character study and things like that. Then as much as they are, you know, with especially post sixties, that kind of new wave examination of characters and tropes and clichés and things like that that you got with the sixties and seventies, you know.
00:16:11:21 - 00:16:21:15
Cullen
So Herzog is definitely riding on that. Yeah. That style of, of like, let's take this story and let's actually bring it further and kind of bring it to the next step and examine it a little bit more.
00:16:21:23 - 00:16:27:09
Clark
Which is, which is why I would never call this a remake. It's an homage, but I think it goes so much further.
00:16:28:17 - 00:16:37:11
Cullen
And of course, I mean, you know, this is just an aside there. There's a new one being made by Robert Eggers, which I'd be curious to know if that one's going to be more.
00:16:37:11 - 00:16:44:23
Clark
Well, and not to digress too much, but has it this has been like kind of in production, out of production, kind of in turnaround or something for a while, right?
00:16:44:23 - 00:16:51:08
Cullen
For it's been in pre-production for a while and it was just announced right after he did The Lighthouse that it was like, Oh.
00:16:51:08 - 00:16:51:21
Clark
So not that.
00:16:51:21 - 00:16:52:22
Cullen
Green lit and all that.
00:16:52:22 - 00:16:55:18
Clark
Yeah, I will have to look into that more. I mean, I certainly would.
00:16:55:18 - 00:17:10:08
Cullen
I know nothing about it. So I mean, I don't want to talk too much on it, but Yeah, but it's just interesting to, it'll be interesting when that comes out to see is that one going to kind of add even more subtext. They're going to try and be more of an homage to Herzog is going to be an homage to the the original or will they.
00:17:10:08 - 00:17:34:06
Clark
Go, Yeah, well, I think it look, if nothing else, it's interesting to see that there's clearly there is still this this interest in this kind of story in this character. And so the fact that they're making another film and again, look, we don't want to get too carried away with kind of remakes and sequels and things sometimes. I think in this case with these two films that we're discussing here, it's it's not a remake.
00:17:34:06 - 00:17:56:00
Clark
And both films contribute substantially to to film. Sometimes, of course, we get carried away, especially here in Hollywood with remake after remake and, you know, recycling same old stories. But I will be excited to see what this new Nosferatu might turn into. But to go back to to Herzog's film, you know, some of the similarities. Well, I mean, some of these shots are almost you know, it's the exact same shots.
00:17:56:00 - 00:18:20:19
Clark
Some of you know, in some places Herzog has replicated almost to a t murnau's film. Yeah. In other places, he he does make some significant differences like we we've talked about. But this is certainly there's no question that you could say that this is Herzog's film. And you know, one of the things that I that I just you know, we both talked about how we thought this was one of his most more beautiful films.
00:18:20:19 - 00:18:45:23
Clark
And I'd love to talk with you for a little bit about that because although certainly he he takes aspects of the cinematography of Murnau's film and we definitely have a lot of this expressionism, this, you know, the high contrast lighting, low angles, canted angles, a lot of shadows. We even have some really interesting usage of unmotivated light and kind of, you know, surreal, surreal shots and that are just beautiful.
00:18:45:23 - 00:18:57:01
Clark
And you can see, you know, very clearly that this is an image. But he also does a lot of different things, his his exteriors, his landscape shots. There's some really amazing work here.
00:18:57:10 - 00:19:16:23
Cullen
I think there's this this stark contrast between two styles in the movie that work incredibly well together. You've got this this like an Herzog is, to me, one of the masters of handheld photography, because I, I find that handheld photography, when it's not accurate and when it's not precise, doesn't work. Herzog's is always really precise. Herzog always knows what he's doing with his hands.
00:19:16:23 - 00:19:17:18
Clark
There's a lot of it in this.
00:19:17:18 - 00:19:18:06
Cullen
Incredible.
00:19:18:22 - 00:19:20:12
Clark
Portrait held in this film.
00:19:20:12 - 00:19:42:01
Cullen
But it really it contrasts with and this was something that we just kind of noticed recently when I was I was watching Herzog's Without Sound is that there's also moments in Herzog's that that look like a silent picture. And one of those moments is when when Nosferatu or when Dracula's bringing his coffin off of the boat to find his new home, basically.
00:19:42:01 - 00:19:51:01
Cullen
And he's going through this graveyard and he winds up in this church. And if you watch that without sound, you know, Kinski's performance is almost vaudevillian. He's exaggerated his facial expressions and he kind.
00:19:51:01 - 00:19:51:23
Clark
Of silent film.
00:19:51:23 - 00:20:07:03
Cullen
Basks at some light at some point. And it's like it looks like a silent film. But interestingly, you mentioned that Herzog this was brought up to Herzog by in the commentary and by his. INTERVIEWER. Yeah, that he had no intention to do that. He had he had no idea that it even came across that way.
00:20:07:03 - 00:20:25:11
Clark
Yeah. I really didn't even know if he agreed necessarily with the observation, but I would agree with you. I think that in a lot of the performance, in a lot of the way it shot this, this certainly could if you turn the sound off, I don't know that you would miss a tremendous amount about the story here. I think it would work quite well as a silent film.
00:20:25:14 - 00:20:41:03
Cullen
Well, that's what's interesting, because the reason I turn the sound off was because I was just looking at these shots while we were talking. And I notice that I didn't pause it. Like I just kept it going because I was like, even during the dialog sequences where, you know, you should be of course, listening, it works in silence.
00:20:41:03 - 00:20:56:03
Cullen
And I actually am curious now, you know, once we're done this time, I actually go back and watch the whole movie without any sound because I think that that, you know, it provides such an interesting like I was what was interesting to me about it was that it was something that, you know, I always thought this movie is beautiful.
00:20:56:03 - 00:21:16:04
Cullen
It's my I think it's my favorite of Herzog's movies, both visually and just just, you know, I just love it. Yeah. But looking at it without the sound, it like it just offered with an entirely new perspective for me of just looking at where and perhaps, you know, it could have even been like choices that Kinski was making to kind of pull from that silent era.
00:21:16:08 - 00:21:36:19
Cullen
Yeah, but there's also one of the things that we kind of both pointed out was there's really long takes, too. There's a lot of takes it to me also, again, hearken back to whether intentionally or unintentionally, that silent movie era where it's like somebody moving through a space. The camera's locked down on a tripod, right? And you're just panning with them and following character enters.
00:21:36:19 - 00:21:58:18
Clark
Does the business character exits and you're there for the entirety of it? Yeah, Yeah. There is a lot there. And and it's interesting that you mentioned that there is a lot of this, especially when it comes to travel, as we have, you know, Jonathan Harker, the Bruno Ganz character, he is traveling from his home to Transylvania and Herzog even talks.
00:21:58:23 - 00:22:19:11
Clark
You know, there's a lot of just a long takes of travel of this character, kind of moving through the frame very deliberately and Herzog even mentions in his commentary how, you know, 21st century who didn't produce the film, like some people say, but distributed it in the U.S. only, you know, tried to get him to take these things out.
00:22:19:11 - 00:22:37:06
Clark
And he said, look, you know, jeez, we we get the idea. He's like traveling. We don't have to have 5 minutes of him traveling, you know? And Herzog was like, no, no, no. That is the point. That is the point. And of course, you know, we've discussed this many times here in this podcast how important it is for Herzog, this traveling on foot.
00:22:37:06 - 00:22:46:19
Clark
And it's interesting to note, we didn't mention it a moment ago when we were kind of comparing and contrasting, but that is actually a substantial difference now from the original film.
00:22:46:19 - 00:23:09:23
Cullen
Because in the original, he he takes the carriage and then switches carriages to count all locks. Right. You know, servant that comes by, which is honestly in the original movie one of the to me creepiest moments how the carriage moves because it's kind of fast motion and there's this really creepy Welsh thing so there's but of course as you were mentioning in Herzog's he does it on foot he gets to.
00:23:10:10 - 00:23:11:03
Clark
And it doesn't see.
00:23:11:03 - 00:23:12:00
Cullen
Dracula's castle on.
00:23:12:00 - 00:23:39:22
Clark
Foot. And if you didn't understand, if you didn't have the context of what that means to Herzog, you might not find that to be any kind of significance, you know, in that change to be of any significance. But I think it very much is for Herzog. And we see this transition of landscape that he's kind of going almost through this wasteland, right, these dangerous types of landscapes that, you know, narrow ledge on the side of that, you know, rocky cliff with the.
00:23:39:23 - 00:23:40:19
Cullen
River running by.
00:23:40:22 - 00:24:04:10
Clark
Yeah, right. And these these really precarious feeling hills with the the water, the rocks, the large boulders and the white water moving quickly. And we know that, you know, Herzog is always trying to find a landscape it represents, you know, that's a landscape of the soul. And so I think it's much more important in this film and much more conscientious than maybe the travel part was.
00:24:04:11 - 00:24:18:22
Cullen
Oh, God, it's firmer now. There's the moment when he's climbing that mount that although really wet rocks next to the waterfall that's coming down and it's up and just watching him climb for for probably a minute, like it's probably not even cut for a minute and it's beautiful.
00:24:19:04 - 00:24:22:20
Clark
And never be in in film. You'd never have that in a modern film ever.
00:24:22:20 - 00:24:42:07
Cullen
Which to me is unfortunate. You know, it is Herzog is so good, especially in this movie and in, I think, all of his movies, but of just taking time and letting atmosphere. And I know, you know, I've had this conversation with especially working on features where, you know, people just want, you know, a note that people often give is just like, okay, get to it.
00:24:42:07 - 00:25:01:19
Cullen
Get to it. Okay, let's go, let's go. All of this. And I'm like, But, but one thing that I find and one thing I find so, so appealing about a lot of modern, you know, the few modern directors that still do this is that atmosphere matters a ton. And I think Herzog really understands that. And there's a few directors working today that really understand that about, like you can sit on things.
00:25:02:15 - 00:25:25:09
Cullen
A huge part of this movie is allowing yourself to sit and just take in the atmosphere. And it's something that the 22 film does differently than Dracula, actually. And there's there's sort of a compare and contrast with the original Dracula film that the 22 film was pulling from. Is that Dracula really brushes by the castle sequence? Yeah, Dracula in Dracula.
00:25:25:09 - 00:25:34:05
Cullen
I don't remember the characters names in Dracula, but the guy gets to the castle. Yeah, the castle sequence is pretty short. He's. He's bitten, and then he returns with Dracula to London, right?
00:25:34:05 - 00:25:37:14
Clark
It's just a plot device that's not really waiting for anything else.
00:25:37:14 - 00:25:45:16
Cullen
A huge aspect of both the 22 version and the Herzog version are how long is spent at the gates, like half of the movie there at the castle.
00:25:45:19 - 00:26:03:23
Clark
Well, it's a good chunk. It's a good chunk of time. And we really see I and there's you know, speaking of that, you remind me in Herzog's film of, you know, really we talk about these long takes and it's whether they're, you know, Dracula and Harker at the dining room table that first night and he cuts a storm.
00:26:03:23 - 00:26:25:22
Clark
Right. This famous scene where Kinski is so is compelled to like compelled by the sight of blood, the smell of blood. And, you know, he tries to keep himself from it, but he can't. And he throws himself on to Jonathan's hand and sucks the blood from his finger. But this take goes on and on, and we move from the dining room tables through this, you know, to the fireplace.
00:26:25:22 - 00:26:42:00
Clark
And, you know, there's another scene where a bit later and, you know, Jonathan's trying to find his way out of the castle and he checks, you know, half a dozen doors and any other film or in most films, you would have, you know, just cut into, you know, insert, cut, insert, cut, you know, boom, boom, boom. He's trying these doors.
00:26:42:00 - 00:27:03:10
Clark
And here we we just it's all in one. We're following him. And, you know, Herzog speaks to the importance for him of maintaining, you know, a spatial continuity. Yeah. Never wanted the audience to not understand where things are spatially. And so he prefers often to shoot in these long takes.
00:27:03:15 - 00:27:05:09
Cullen
Just to get the audience to learn. Yeah.
00:27:05:14 - 00:27:37:04
Clark
Just to and and for me to. I generally prefer that. I think if you talk to many actors, they will prefer working in that manner. I think a lot of, especially when you talk about action scenes in today's modern films, I sometimes feel like things are cut just too much. They're just, yeah, we lose a spatial orientation and we don't believe anything that's in front of us because we know that every time something happens, there's a cut to some other, you know, some insert or cut to some other take or cut to something.
00:27:37:04 - 00:27:53:18
Clark
And they don't often mesh perfectly well. And even if you can't articulate it consciously, you kind of know something's off. You know, angles aren't matching. You know, it's like that. And I think we we we see this so much in film now, and let's face it too, it's a lot cheaper generally to shoot that way. Apples to apples, right?
00:27:54:02 - 00:27:56:07
Clark
It's a lot harder to shoot a two minute take.
00:27:56:18 - 00:28:23:06
Cullen
Well, it's also interesting that that what's what's actually very relevant about this movie to me right now is the plague. The plague that yes, but no leads. So that the feature that I'm working on right now, there was actually there's a specific moment when when Kinski is entering Jonathan Harker's room in the castle, and he's like, he got his, like, hands splayed out and stretched out, and he's almost floating into the room.
00:28:23:06 - 00:28:38:21
Cullen
And it's a terrifying image. Like it's probably to me the most like bone chilling image in the whole movie, or at least one of them. And he's just like floating in the room. And it's this long, long take where Parker gets up fast. He pulls back and looks at.
00:28:38:21 - 00:28:40:12
Clark
Him, flies back to the corner. But.
00:28:40:12 - 00:28:50:20
Cullen
But, but Kinski is just floating. I don't know how they did it. Either they had him on a string or if they had him on some sort of track or something, because he's he's like floating without moving anything. It's hard to actually reference.
00:28:50:20 - 00:28:52:05
Clark
That his physicality might.
00:28:52:06 - 00:28:53:11
Cullen
It might have been an illusion.
00:28:53:11 - 00:28:53:18
Clark
Yeah.
00:28:54:10 - 00:29:11:15
Cullen
But I actually, you know, in doing the feature that I'm working on right now, you know, I was saying to the team that we're doing it with that. I sort of said like, there's a moment in it where I specifically showed them that moment because I'm like, This is exactly how I want it to be, that it's and it's so different.
00:29:11:15 - 00:29:39:05
Cullen
You know, normally you get a vampire movie, you think of like a vampire creeping in and he's still like crawling around or something like that. Not creepy, but no, there's this stillness to Kinski's portrayal and to Herzog's direction that I think really work. And then which again, when suddenly, you know, Kinski like, is tossing the chair away and you've got this, this visceral, handheld camerawork contrast so much and makes those moments so much more impactful because you're going wholly like, okay, this is, you know, now he's angry.
00:29:39:05 - 00:29:40:12
Cullen
Yeah. So it's and.
00:29:40:12 - 00:30:04:15
Clark
There's a lot of that internalization stuff. Yeah. I think in these performances there's a lot of you know, I think there's some really beautiful moments where you've got whether it's it's Lucy alone or it's Lucy and Jonathan together, several instances at the beach where you have these, these tender, emotional moments. But Herzog choose to shoot, chooses to shoot from behind and often from quite a distance.
00:30:04:22 - 00:30:18:02
Clark
Yeah. And I think, you know, a lot of times what you have there is you have the camera right in their face and you'd want to really, you know, hit it on the nose. Let's get I want to see the waterworks or, you know, we want a.
00:30:18:02 - 00:30:19:10
Cullen
Sweat running down his face.
00:30:19:10 - 00:30:42:14
Clark
And so I think there's often that that's kind of the direction that people go. But I very much appreciate this understated manner with which he's shooting these moments, because it really does allow us as an audience to be more involved, to use our imagination. And, you know, I also think that it does a fantastic job and it's appropriate in this film of highlighting, you know, the isolation that these characters are experiencing.
00:30:42:17 - 00:30:48:17
Clark
Yeah. And and it's a fantastic way, I think, to kind of introduce the suspense or the.
00:30:49:04 - 00:30:51:05
Cullen
And again, that intentionally or unintentionally.
00:30:51:11 - 00:30:51:18
Clark
Yeah.
00:30:51:19 - 00:31:21:03
Cullen
And intentionally or unintentionally feels very German expressionist. Yeah. Like it totally. You know again I'll take Herzog at his word to say that he didn't he didn't intend that because, you know, there's no reason to lie about that. But but I think that it's just so interesting. And perhaps it was just this subconscious thing of just like understanding the context of which this movie takes place and the style and the atmosphere that you need to convey, that you almost need to pull from those conventions of, of like silent movies.
00:31:21:05 - 00:31:21:14
Cullen
Well, and.
00:31:21:15 - 00:31:30:10
Clark
I think a lot of the way he shot this film is a lot of is the is you know the way that he's made films before this quite right Yeah I think it's just kind of part of the fabric of who he is as a filmmaker.
00:31:30:12 - 00:31:36:00
Cullen
Which makes sense about this whole orphaned filmmaker thing too, that he would then pull from. Yeah, it was really interesting.
00:31:36:01 - 00:31:49:14
Clark
Because I really don't see, you know, there are obviously there are some differences. You know, Herzog has made a very wide range of styles and types of films and different subjects. But I have no problem believing that this is a Herzog film, you know?
00:31:49:16 - 00:31:50:01
Cullen
Yes.
00:31:50:01 - 00:32:02:15
Clark
Yeah. It's not like this film somehow is so different than all the rest. In no too many ways for me to know that this is Herzog. And so I really feel like it's just a natural extension of who he is as a filmmaker.
00:32:02:15 - 00:32:27:01
Cullen
Which arguably is the most interesting way to, you know, whether you want to call it a homage or a remake or whatever. But it's the most like that to me is when I get interested in movies that are being remade or retold, is is that, you know, so often people remake movies or try and retell the same stories and try and push the original director's style on to it or kind of keep that going.
00:32:27:01 - 00:32:43:03
Cullen
Whereas I find the opposite. I find that if it's a director who's who's retelling the same story or doing an homage to an older movie, that if they put their own fingerprints all over it, it makes it ten times more interesting because you get to see how would Herzog have directed Nosferatu, which obviously we have because it did.
00:32:44:03 - 00:33:03:11
Cullen
You know, to me, that's more interesting than if Herzog was just, you know, spent the entire time trying to mimic right shots in the style of the original, like psych. But I just think that it's really interesting. Yeah, exactly. Like psycho. But I just think that it's really neat that you can really see his roots in this and you can see where those styles came from and how he felt.
00:33:03:13 - 00:33:25:14
Cullen
And I think it's really interesting that you mentioned the idea of that orphaned that he was like he says he was kind of like an orphan generation of filmmakers. Yeah. Because you can really see, okay, you know, in the United States a filmmaker Herzog's age would have, you know, grown up, you know, perhaps a little bit younger than, you know, or much younger than Hitchcock and kind of been inspired by those people who were working contemporarily in the forties and fifties.
00:33:26:00 - 00:33:29:17
Cullen
Herzog is, you know, working from the twenties and tens.
00:33:29:21 - 00:33:30:03
Clark
Yeah.
00:33:30:04 - 00:33:31:11
Cullen
Which is really, really interesting.
00:33:31:14 - 00:33:51:00
Clark
And of course, you tie this all in with the fact that, you know, he hadn't seen film until he was, I think, 17, he said. And so, you know, this definitely has an impact. I think we see a lot of his kind of, you know, some more of his personal touches. They come across to me. We've got you know, we start the film with it with this long shot of the cats and the pendant.
00:33:51:08 - 00:34:00:10
Clark
And that always makes me say Herzog. I think every film, you know, almost every film that he's made has some kind of, you know, he lingers on some animals for some period of time.
00:34:01:01 - 00:34:02:09
Cullen
And lots of bats and this and.
00:34:02:09 - 00:34:21:15
Clark
Lots of bats. And yeah, it's interesting, you know, the shot, the slow motion shots of the bats here he actually took from a scientific film. Mm hmm. I think we're looking at he didn't quite know, so he kind of gave a range of 500 to 800 frames per second of these scientific films that were kind of studying the wing movement of bats.
00:34:21:15 - 00:34:45:12
Clark
And so he, he put it into the film, but it works fantastically. We've got these really interesting kind of tableau shots of one that really stands out in my mind. And it's very surreal. And I guess you could call it unnatural in a sense or unrealistic, but it works perfect. Here is that of Renfield in prison with the two guards, one on each side, and they're practically staring right at the camera.
00:34:45:22 - 00:35:10:12
Clark
And there's a there are a handful of shots in Murnau's 22 film that are very similar to this. It's almost kind of like a still photography type of of of of shooting, if you will. Right where we had these these tableaus in photography in the early era, in the early beginnings of photography, where people had to sit for, you know, sometimes minutes to get to get an exposure.
00:35:10:17 - 00:35:26:12
Clark
And I almost get a sense that there's some of the shots in Herzog's films going back that far. And you look out just it's very it's just kind of unnerving, kind of gives you this sense of just seriousness, which I think works perfect here.
00:35:26:12 - 00:35:32:00
Cullen
But that sense of yeah, such as surrealism, which also, you know, really ties into the use of music.
00:35:32:00 - 00:35:39:17
Clark
Yeah. On of course, yeah. He uses one of his common collaborators here. Absolutely. And.
00:35:40:11 - 00:35:50:11
Cullen
And of course it opens with this, this choral, you know, very deep kind of choral and strings mixed over the shots of the the mummified bodies which were real.
00:35:50:16 - 00:35:51:18
Clark
Which is Yeah.
00:35:51:18 - 00:35:53:05
Cullen
Which but then shot in.
00:35:53:08 - 00:35:55:00
Clark
Yeah. In Mexico.
00:35:55:06 - 00:35:55:11
Cullen
Yeah.
00:35:55:17 - 00:36:18:21
Clark
And he shot that in Mexico. And I think you know it's kind of the story here is that he he was in the States for on some type of scholarship or sponsorship or something and for whatever reason he decided he didn't want to perform the duties that he needed to do to keep that current. So he escaped to Mexico because I think the way he tells it, he was going to be sent back to Germany.
00:36:18:21 - 00:36:41:18
Clark
So he runs to Mexico to escape the authorities here in the U.S. And while there he came across this area where I saw the story goes, there is a cemetery. I guess, where you had to pay for the plots indefinitely. So as long as the body was there, you'd have to pay rent, basically. Yeah. And so eventually, you know, some people would stop paying rent for whatever reason.
00:36:42:01 - 00:36:58:17
Clark
Maybe they were finally dead. Right. But anyway, And so they would dig these bodies up. And just because of the nature of the climate and soil there, they would be mummified. And so over time, people started to come to see these mummified bodies. And then it kind of grew into like a museum. So they had these mummified bodies on display in glass cases.
00:36:59:01 - 00:37:18:05
Clark
And when Herzog saw that, he was completely mesmerized. And so he convinced them to let them take the bodies out of the cases and line them up against this wall. And he shot them. And I mean, talk about effective because, look, you can tell that's real. I mean, it's, you know, unnerving. And, you know, it's like all the special effects in the world.
00:37:18:18 - 00:37:24:05
Clark
And I don't even know it Still to this day, if you're going to make a more convincing scene than what we have.
00:37:24:07 - 00:37:25:00
Cullen
An unsettling.
00:37:25:00 - 00:37:37:02
Clark
Moment. I know. I just so I mean, because they're still wearing clothes like some of those bodies are in boots. And, you know, Herzog says when he picked them up to lift them, to place them on the wall, they might have weighed £15.
00:37:37:05 - 00:37:38:02
Cullen
Because they're so brittle.
00:37:38:03 - 00:37:41:13
Clark
They're just so brittle and dry, but extremely interesting. Yeah.
00:37:41:17 - 00:38:05:18
Cullen
And so then so we get that opening with that beautiful choral and strings music, which actually is really I love the moment in that that, that music which he uses again and again through the movie where it goes from choral and then you have that high strings come in. I think it's a really beautiful piece. Yeah. And then it goes to, you know, when he's traveling and kind of opening, there's this like almost very seventies kind of folk guitar, almost.
00:38:05:19 - 00:38:20:13
Cullen
Yeah, in places. And again, it's like it kind of is jarring it at first because you're going from, you know, this 16th century or whatever decade or Eric takes place in this this very old of.
00:38:20:13 - 00:38:26:04
Clark
Course so the film takes place in its roughly I think the mid 1818.
00:38:26:04 - 00:38:26:11
Cullen
Hundred.
00:38:26:11 - 00:38:29:14
Clark
Yeah. Yeah the mid 1800s is where we've got the film place right.
00:38:29:14 - 00:38:50:18
Cullen
Yeah. But you go from that and which of course you don't really think of like this like strumming guitar. Sure. But it works. It definitely works for the travel scenes and stuff like that. And then you know, the third kind of piece that really stands out to me is, of course, his use of Bognor, which is the prelude to the entry of the gods into the Valhalla from the Rheingold Das Rheingold.
00:38:51:03 - 00:38:58:05
Cullen
And of course, that you know that to me I can understand why he chose that. And I believe he's used that in other movies as well. But For this. It really was.
00:38:58:05 - 00:38:58:12
Clark
A fake.
00:38:58:12 - 00:39:21:02
Cullen
Because it's yeah, it's about, you know, that whole piece. It's like it's it's about ascension and it's about, you know, just like rebirth and all this stuff. And so he uses that both on Count Dracula, the journey to the town or the city, but also he uses it at the end when the town is kind of been decimated by this plague.
00:39:21:02 - 00:39:36:11
Cullen
And it's such an effective piece of music, right? I always like that piece too, because I back in, I think high school, I was making a short film and I use that piece in it without even having known that that Herzog was a huge fan of it. And also Malick uses it sometimes. Great piece of music. Yeah, but it's super effective here.
00:39:36:11 - 00:39:56:21
Cullen
And so what I really like about that and it's kind of a lot to my own taste, is that the music doesn't you know, a lot of directors are very, very particular about using music that all sounds like it fits within the same kind of genre or mood or style or is or kind of throws out against the window or out the window and doesn't really care.
00:39:57:06 - 00:40:15:02
Cullen
And I like that a lot because it it it really affects the scenes that that are happening. You know, that, you know, again, that guitar music kind of puts you at ease as as what's his name? Parker Parker's going to the castle. It kind of puts you at ease as he is because he's kind of like laissez faire about it.
00:40:15:02 - 00:40:17:04
Cullen
And he's sort of going along saying, like, I'll be fine.
00:40:17:04 - 00:40:18:02
Clark
You know, he doesn't know yet.
00:40:18:02 - 00:40:35:08
Cullen
So what's in store for him? Yeah, right. So you get this guitar music and you sort of feel this calmness. Then you arrive at the castle and that's all stripped away. And that comes very, again, raw and visceral. I don't think there's, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think there's really much music used in the Castle.
00:40:35:08 - 00:40:36:20
Cullen
I think most artists.
00:40:36:23 - 00:40:43:08
Clark
Period, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's periods for sure where it's where there's not a lot of music going on. I mean, it's.
00:40:43:08 - 00:40:45:05
Cullen
Just kind of atmosphere and, and.
00:40:45:06 - 00:41:05:03
Clark
And there's well in there. Yeah. And we do have that. We have some really interesting sound effects. And you know, in reading Herzog's treatment, we haven't talked a lot about this, but but the treatment not the script but the treatment for this film, about 130 pages long is available online. And, you know, it's very interesting to see how Herzog writes, you know, he doesn't write in a script format.
00:41:05:20 - 00:41:24:12
Clark
It's very much a prose format. And there's none of this, you know, camera direction or anything else. Dialog is separated, but barely, not anywhere near like a screenwriting format. But but that's specifically called out. We we hear the you know, the the wolves outside these the sounds are very much integrated.
00:41:24:12 - 00:41:25:14
Cullen
The children of the night.
00:41:25:20 - 00:41:44:15
Clark
Right. Is very much integrated. And, you know, there is a lot of that. I listened to the soundtrack last night and of Florian Fricke did the soundtrack and. Florian Fricke has done the soundtrack, the music for many of Herzog's films. I don't even want to venture a guess to the number. I'd probably be wrong, but many of them right.
00:41:44:15 - 00:42:09:18
Clark
And there's a lot of this and it, like you were saying, is very interesting. We move from, you know, an acoustic guitar and it's almost kind of a seventies vibe to, you know, guitars and droning kind of, you know, hypnotic music. There's a lot of really interesting stuff there. And one and music that you just wouldn't immediately correlate with a horror film or you know at all.
00:42:09:23 - 00:42:35:17
Cullen
I also want to add that this movie to me feels very timeless. Like it doesn't nothing, you know, it feels 1979. It feels like it could be made in any decade. And would be the same and would work the same. And I think a lot of that is about just just Herzog's masterful direction. I think the fact that he he he directs in a way that has him and doesn't really adhere to styles at the time.
00:42:36:13 - 00:42:54:12
Clark
I think that's a great point. And, you know, Herzog has never been somebody to jump on fads and to hop on trends. I mean that you know, you can say, you know, you like them, you don't like this, that the other thing. But I'd be really hard to argue for anybody to take this to his their is like somebody else.
00:42:54:12 - 00:43:18:02
Clark
And, you know, I mean he is definitely his own filmmaker. And I think many of his films have that feeling to me where they're and I think Herzog is just such a unique dude, you know, to to get it technical terms there. I think he's such a unique dude. Yeah. It's just that his work just kind of, you know, stands on its own and it's just not trendy, I guess is the best way I could say it.
00:43:18:03 - 00:43:25:16
Clark
His films aren't trendy and so they don't evaporate with the passing years, like a lot of other films, mate, you know.
00:43:25:22 - 00:43:30:11
Cullen
And you said that he hadn't even seen most versions of Dracula on film before.
00:43:30:19 - 00:43:51:16
Clark
Maybe, I don't know that he had. Had he seen any others? I'm not sure that he had seen any other. Aside from the 22, you know, Nosferatu, Nosferatu. I don't know that he I feel like it's possible that he said he hadn't or he or or that he had seen other films, at least, you know, when he did the commentary.
00:43:51:16 - 00:44:00:04
Clark
There is one specific memory I have where he had he had actually, of course, this was after he made his film, but he had seen Coppola's Bram Stoker's Dracula.
00:44:00:04 - 00:44:00:18
Cullen
Okay. Yeah.
00:44:00:18 - 00:44:23:04
Clark
Yeah. And his and he didn't like it at all because he felt like it was too like he felt like it started off strong, but then kind of went nowhere. I think he he often talks about how he he's not a big fan of romanticizing of kind of turning it into this like, romantic kind of story. He's just not a big fan of that direction for this character, for this story.
00:44:24:15 - 00:44:32:11
Clark
But yeah, I mean, I think his vision is coming pretty singularly from just inside of himself and from Murnau's short film, you know.
00:44:33:07 - 00:44:53:03
Cullen
And I think that's very clear about the, you know, that comment about the romance in the fact that there is no, you know, Lucy through the whole movie is arguably the strongest character. Yeah. Like she does not, you know, bend her will to anything. Like she's like smart and she gets, you know, of course, and it's the one that winds up killing him.
00:44:53:08 - 00:45:10:02
Clark
Well, and especially if you put her character in you know, if you put her character as a woman in the mid 1800s, if you put it in that context. Absolutely. Because you just you know, I think that in a lot of other tellings of this type of story, you would not have this be the case. You know, And so I think you're right.
00:45:10:02 - 00:45:31:16
Clark
It's even almost, you know, you know, Jonathan almost doesn't even have his own agency in a sense. You know, Renfield definitely doesn't have his own agency. He's immediately under the spell of Count Dracula. And and eventually he just turns into an insane underling, if you will, I guess, of Dracula's, right? I mean, he's. He's literally just mindless at that point.
00:45:31:16 - 00:45:57:12
Clark
Yeah. Jonathan is so taken by this idea that he is going to make money off this. And then as soon as he goes to the castle. Now everything he's doing is in what is or is in reaction. And ultimately, I mean, he's ended up under Dracula's spell literally as he's bitten and he loses his agency. So even though Lucy dies in the end, I mean, she is the one who actually stops Dracula.
00:45:58:01 - 00:46:08:02
Clark
And and she's the only one who has any sense during that. When the plague is taking over the city, people are dying, she says, I know who's to blame. I know what's behind.
00:46:08:02 - 00:46:09:02
Cullen
She goes, The Nurse Helsing?
00:46:09:02 - 00:46:17:09
Clark
Yeah, of course. No one will listen to her. Van Helsing won't listen to her, but she is. I think she is the strongest character out of all of them here.
00:46:18:13 - 00:46:42:12
Cullen
And I think it's interesting to that in Dracula that, you know, the Count Dracula movies that we've got this this very different kind of telling of the story. And it's been a few years since I've seen it. So I may, you know, may get some of the details wrong. But from what I remember is the character of Harker who is named something different.
00:46:42:13 - 00:47:07:06
Cullen
I believe in Dracula, and that might be the same. But he he arrives at the castle and almost becomes Dracula's underling after he's been eaten and being bloodsucking and returned to London with Dracula. Whereas in this one, you know, characters have a little bit more autonomy. Yeah, of course. Harker, you know, breaks out of the castle to get home, to warn Lucy and to warn the town that this, you know, this this evil monster is coming right now.
00:47:07:08 - 00:47:32:18
Clark
Sadly, once he gets there, he doesn't recognize her and, of course, eventually becomes the vampire faces Kinski's Dracula. And but I agree. Very interesting. Herzog even speak to that a little bit. And in one of the commentaries that I listen to and it's interesting, if anybody if you're interested to listen to those commentaries out there, I'll just make a quick note that the Shout Factory release of the Blu ray, at least I don't have the DVD, but at least the Blu ray has both.
00:47:32:18 - 00:47:56:04
Clark
And we're going to talk about this in a quick second, too, but has both the German and English versions of this film. We haven't spoken to that, but we'll talk about that in a minute. But on the German version, there are actually two commentary tracks from Herzog, and he actually speaks to that. The interviewer in one of the commentary tracks kind of makes note that the Herzog doesn't have it, didn't have a lot of female main characters, women prior to this film.
00:47:56:18 - 00:48:25:01
Clark
And I guess Herzog kind of says to that that his films are such I guess his lead characters are such extensions of him that they kind of end up being males because he it's he feels like they're just him, basically. Like he's just transport. I mean, not literally, right, But he's transplanting parts of himself into these characters. So it is an important, important milestone or an important thing to note that there's something quite different for Herzog that he's doing here with her.
00:48:25:10 - 00:48:37:08
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah. And actually, I just I just looked this up that it actually is Renfield in the Dracula movies that go there, Harker is not a character. It's just Renfield who got on his own. And so.
00:48:37:08 - 00:48:37:16
Clark
They're kind of.
00:48:37:20 - 00:48:38:11
Cullen
His underling.
00:48:38:17 - 00:48:41:11
Clark
Makes up some characters. Yeah. And you can see where they get that.
00:48:41:11 - 00:48:59:10
Cullen
But yeah, but I, but I do want to also talk a little bit about so what actually is kind of, you know, and this is probably just coincidence but it's funny that, you know, as you mentioned, that there's a German and English version of Herzog's, right? But in 1931, when they were doing the Bela Lugosi Dracula, there were actually two.
00:48:59:10 - 00:49:10:20
Cullen
Dracula is being consecutively shot there, too. There was an Italian version that would shoot nights, and then during the day the set would be used for the English version. So it's kind of funny that, that, you know, again, for instance, I would.
00:49:10:20 - 00:49:29:04
Clark
Say that this happens well, and it is really interesting here that, you know, Herzog kind of in a way, made two films at once, which is pretty amazing, and especially for the budget with which he made it. I mean, you got to keep in mind, you know, very low budget for this film. But he yeah, he shot both an English and German version.
00:49:29:12 - 00:49:51:00
Clark
And, you know, there's a couple of different, you know, explanations we get for that. On the one hand we hear that tone is 21st century who distributed it in the U.S. pushed him to make an English version. Herzog talks about the fact that, you know, they had an international cast and English was the most commonly spoken language out of the entire cast, actually, as opposed to German.
00:49:51:22 - 00:49:53:18
Clark
We even do have some dubbing in there.
00:49:53:18 - 00:49:55:00
Cullen
Renfield Yeah, right.
00:49:55:00 - 00:50:07:14
Clark
So Roland Tope are actually I think is dubbed unfortunately in both versions because they just deemed that his accent was too difficult to understand. But I think that he's French.
00:50:08:00 - 00:50:08:12
Cullen
In.
00:50:08:23 - 00:50:09:10
Clark
Correct.
00:50:09:11 - 00:50:09:23
Cullen
Correctly.
00:50:10:14 - 00:50:34:02
Clark
And a lot of these actors have some interesting you not talked too much about that but you know I mean obviously Kinski, it kind of goes without saying that, you know, Kinski's work with Herzog prior to this. I mean, talk about dynamic duo. Whenever you talk about Herzog, you can hardly refrain from mentioning Kinski, you know, But Bruno Ganz was a very successful theater.
00:50:34:07 - 00:50:43:11
Clark
I think, mostly by this time theater. But then, of course, he went on to have a long career. And you even you mentioned that he was even played Hitler in Downfall.
00:50:43:14 - 00:50:49:09
Cullen
Yeah. Which is arguably, you know, a lot of people consider that to be like the best depiction of Hitler.
00:50:49:12 - 00:50:57:15
Clark
And, you know, he'll live on in the millions. The means that have been made from that scene where people you know, redubbed that. But he.
00:50:57:15 - 00:50:58:06
Cullen
His last.
00:50:58:06 - 00:50:59:15
Clark
Wages last year are two years.
00:50:59:17 - 00:51:08:11
Cullen
So it's not 2019 and his last role is actually Malick's film, A Hidden Life, which I thought was great. I don't know if you've seen that, but.
00:51:08:18 - 00:51:09:18
Clark
I have on fact.
00:51:10:00 - 00:51:32:12
Cullen
Yeah. His final roles in that movie and he's he's wonderful in that. Yeah but very small role but still good Yeah but no I do And so I watched both versions, I watched the English and then the German and I'd seen the German before a few years ago, but I decided to rewatch them both. Right. But it's interesting because Herzog also refers to the German version as like, more authentic, definitely.
00:51:32:12 - 00:51:48:05
Cullen
But that he doesn't disavow the English. He sort of says that, you know, they're both kind of watch which one you want. But I think the German one is the appearance here. One. Yeah. And but but what I've noticed is that there's not a huge difference between the two of them, that there is no of course, there's no plot differences.
00:51:48:21 - 00:52:07:13
Cullen
The most major difference is that the dialog in English is stripped down. It's a lot more straightforward and less poetic. Yeah, and it's citrus kind of. Yeah. Which is. Yeah. And so it's just in perhaps it's just, you know, a matter of translation, but, but yeah, there's, there's a lot more just kind of straightforward diversity.
00:52:07:17 - 00:52:12:07
Clark
Kinski's performance was a little less. Yeah. He's just you say it intense maybe.
00:52:12:07 - 00:52:28:14
Cullen
Yes, it's a bit more subdued and he he kind of plays it back a little bit more as opposed to in the German version he's much more harsh and like sharp, which I thought was interesting. And it's not I mean, again, I say much more. It's not something that you would go like, wow.
00:52:28:17 - 00:52:30:17
Clark
You have to watch performance. It's not like.
00:52:30:20 - 00:52:31:06
Cullen
Leave.
00:52:31:06 - 00:52:38:12
Clark
Leave the viewing with the, you know, impression of a completely different film. But if you watch them back to back, these things might become apparent. Yeah.
00:52:38:13 - 00:52:48:13
Cullen
And it's I guess the kind of the other difference to me is just that scenes are slightly edited differently, which, you know, you and I kind of just put up two performances, like the.
00:52:48:13 - 00:52:50:03
Clark
Likelihood could be formatted in.
00:52:50:03 - 00:52:50:20
Cullen
Certain areas.
00:52:50:20 - 00:53:06:02
Clark
And so because everything is pretty much, you know, the setups are the same, the framing is the same. We have some instances where he, you know, they'll he'll cut to a close up where he stays in a wide. But it, but it happens infrequently and there's not a big difference right Yeah.
00:53:06:15 - 00:53:10:04
Cullen
Right I mean I will say that I prefer the German one Right. But I.
00:53:10:04 - 00:53:10:17
Clark
Do too.
00:53:10:17 - 00:53:24:20
Cullen
But that's Yeah, that's I mean the, the German one to me. And the same reason that I think Herzog prefers it and you know, not to put words in his mouth, but I would assume that he prefers it because it is the, you know, the first language of the actors for most of the actors. And it's right, it's Herzog's first language.
00:53:24:20 - 00:53:46:03
Cullen
So naturally, you know, you would feel an affinity towards the more, you know, authentic performances. Whereas if was an actor, even if I spoke, you know, that second language completely fluently, I would still probably feel more comfortable to give my best performance in my native tongue. Yeah. So perhaps that's, you know, he could have a completely different take on that, I'm sure trying it.
00:53:46:14 - 00:54:04:08
Clark
It could even be something as simple as I mean, maybe they did, you know, maybe they shot the German, you know, first of like takes 1 to 4 were German and yeah, he feels like he's got it in the can. So they keep the same set up and they move on you know now takes 5 to 10 hour English and it could just be something as simple as an order was different.
00:54:04:08 - 00:54:19:09
Clark
And who knows, maybe vice versa. You know, maybe they weren't warmed up until the German version or, you know, so who knows? I mean, unless you were there on set, there's no way to know. It'd be fun. It'd be fun if we ever get a chance to talk to Herzog about that. That would be a cool thing to discuss.
00:54:19:14 - 00:54:28:02
Clark
Mm hmm. But, yeah, I mean, I think it's in this past hour, I feel like we have gotten to touch on pretty much just about everything. We flew.
00:54:28:02 - 00:54:28:09
Cullen
By.
00:54:28:09 - 00:54:39:11
Clark
To air, flew by to It's a beautiful film and, you know, everybody out there listening. Hopefully you have seen the film. I don't really feel like there's been, you know, I mean, I guess it's. How old is the film?
00:54:39:11 - 00:54:44:13
Cullen
70 or 79? Well, probably talking to the story is 22, so. Right. Almost 100 years old.
00:54:44:23 - 00:54:56:11
Clark
I don't think we need to put spoiler alert anywhere. But hopefully you've seen the film prior to listening to this. But if you haven't or heck, even if you have, hopefully our discussion here has inspired you to watch it again. Yeah, and I watched.
00:54:56:11 - 00:54:58:06
Cullen
The 22 version as well. If you haven't, I.
00:54:58:15 - 00:55:24:08
Clark
I, you know, and it's it's look, I, you know, I'm, I have been kind of modernized, I guess, for lack of a better term as an audience member as much as the next person. Right. You know, we're a long ways away technologically from 1922 when it comes to film making technology. And so, you know, sometimes I think a lot of people might be resistant to watching silent films or even even from even Herzog's film from 79.
00:55:24:08 - 00:55:41:13
Clark
A lot of younger people might be extremely hesitant because, you know, they're not cut the same. They're not the timing is different, pacing is different. There is there's different ways that we tell a story. I think film grammar has changed a little bit. Still the same building blocks. But but, but we've changed a little bit of the how we use that grammar.
00:55:41:13 - 00:56:01:02
Clark
And so I think sometimes there might be a resistance, Oh, this is boring. Or you know, especially it's subtitled and especially, especially if it's silent. But I really do feel like both of these films hold up. I think that if you even have a passing interest in film history or in horror, you don't have to be a Herzog fan.
00:56:01:02 - 00:56:17:16
Clark
You don't have to be a German Expressionism fan. You know, they're really interesting films. You know, let me say one thing real quick here, because we have you know, we try to I don't think we try to go too deep into specific little scenes. We try to kind of take a film on on its whole and kind of talk about these things.
00:56:17:16 - 00:56:35:09
Clark
But, gosh, I just want to I want to see if you remember one of the scenes, because it really stood out to me and it was fun. And thinking now about how film technology has changed made me think of this. So in and Murnau's film, there is this amazing scene where, you know, so when when Jonathan is locked in the castle, right.
00:56:35:16 - 00:57:04:20
Clark
And and Count Dracula loads up his coffins full of the earth and the rats that he is going to take on the on the river to beat Jonathan to Lucy when he's loading it up, there's this. So in Herzog's film, it's very simple, which just you've got this this kind of canted overhead shot, a very beautiful shot. But he's loading up this large kind of platform him that's attached to his horses, and he puts the last coffin on top of this big stack of like a dozen black coffins.
00:57:05:05 - 00:57:25:21
Clark
And kind of he climbs into it and closes it up from within, and then the horses take off driverless. So it's pretty cool shot. But in but in Murnau's film, I feel like it's it's even better and it's so fun to see these little tricks from these old films. So we have kind of the same thing. There's this, you know, these stacked up coffins on this carriage platform.
00:57:25:22 - 00:57:28:17
Clark
No trailer, I guess for I don't know if they still call them trailers, back.
00:57:28:17 - 00:57:29:18
Cullen
Carriage, whatever. Yeah.
00:57:29:18 - 00:57:47:13
Clark
Something, you know, but this large flat platform that we use to haul cargo and he gets in the coffin but they use this beautiful stop motion photography to have the the led supernaturally placed upon the coffin to seal them up. And I just always think, I don't know if you remember that.
00:57:47:18 - 00:57:49:10
Cullen
Yeah, I remember the shot. Yeah.
00:57:49:14 - 00:58:13:20
Clark
And I always just think how exciting those things must have been for an audience of that era. Mm hmm. And, you know, sometimes I feel like maybe there's a little hesitancy or resistance for people watching older films because we've kind of gotten, you know, I don't know if cynical is the word, but we live in a day and age of it's CGI, everything, and, you know, explosions everywhere and Marvel movies and spectacle, spectacle.
00:58:14:04 - 00:58:34:04
Clark
But to see such a simple technique performed in such an awesome, effective way to me as often beats all that CGI, it just the ingenuity and the simple ness, but it's how it's applied to the story, how effective it is. So I don't know. I highly recommend it. That's pretty much the gist of all of that, is that I think they still hold up and they're still worth watching.
00:58:34:04 - 00:58:36:12
Clark
And you should, if you aren't. How's that?
00:58:37:03 - 00:58:37:09
Cullen
Yeah.
00:58:38:00 - 00:58:57:02
Clark
I feel like I'm preaching now. That's a good one out there. Yeah, I need to say an amen, but. But anyway. Yeah, well, Kate, Colin, as always, man, I mean, the time's flown by. Everybody listening out there. I hope you've enjoyed it as well. I know I have. Colin, it seems like you have you talked how fast it felt it flew by so well.
00:58:57:02 - 00:59:18:09
Clark
I look forward to our next episode where we will likely cover another Herzog film, which we have yet to pick out. So if anybody out there listening has any suggestions, what films that you'd like us to to discuss, please, by all means, shoot us an email. But yeah, Colin, until next time. And everybody out there listening.
00:59:18:09 - 00:59:21:18
Cullen
Thank you. Yeah. Thanks everyone.