Cullen
Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I'm Cullen and joined as always by Clark Coffey. How's it going?
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Clark
It's going pretty well. Matt seems to be there. It's going great, man. How are you?
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Cullen
Yeah, I'm good to it. That seems to be like the like go to. I mean, we might as well just record that intro. As I say, at the same every single time we do.
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Clark
Hey, you know, or you could mix it up and I mean you could just come out of left field next time, you know?
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Cullen
Yeah, next time I do.
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Clark
It just really mix it up. I mean, you know, Hey, it's it's, I mean, it's nice. We like, you know, we want to want this to be like a a cozy, welcoming place for people to come in. You know, it kind of starts and ends the same way. You've got that familiarity, you know, it's like, cheers, you know, you want to go where everybody does have a name.
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Clark
But but, hey, I mean, we can also mix it up, you know? I mean, who knows what? We could open.
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Cullen
Up a huge shocker. Yeah.
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Clark
It'll be a huge shocker. Maybe we can, like, by the time we get to the end of this episode, we will have, like, organically come to some insane cliff hanging ending. And then so next episode, it will be like that, you know, like those old fashioned like to be continued TV. Yeah. Next time on and it's like, you know Yeah great.
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Cullen
We do a narrative, we pull the Herzog, we put the narrative in the real life.
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Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.
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Cullen
Yeah. So, I mean, speaking of Herzog, of course, this is the Werner Herzog podcast, but today we were talking about Family Romance LLC, which was his. Yeah, Newest, not newest.
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Clark
Well, 2019.
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Cullen
2019.
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Clark
And you were going to say newest narrative, I think, right?
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Cullen
Yeah, I think it is. I think it is his newest narrative. Right?
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Clark
You know, that's a great question. I'm not entirely positive because, you know, I feel bad now. I might, as.
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Cullen
You put it. I mean, I would assume so. I can't imagine that he'd have a new one.
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Clark
Yeah, I don't I don't think so. You know, he did. He did Nomad, which of course we covered last episode and he did that in 2019 as well. I don't know if you know the.
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Cullen
Exact fire ball was 2020, but that was the fire.
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Clark
Ball is 2020 and there's a.
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Cullen
Short. So that is his newest.
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Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm checking.
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Cullen
IMDB.
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Clark
Now. He's got a couple other films that are in development and I don't know a ton about them.
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Cullen
Fordlandia Yeah, which about Henry Ford Building a factory in the Yamal, which.
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Clark
Which sounds like extremely interesting, by the way. I can't wait for that Slicked canal and yeah, we'll do an episode on it. But yes, I think it's safe to say we can say Family Romance LLC. His latest narrative film, although I know it confused a lot of people, I think and we're going to talk about this with its style and with it.
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Clark
Yeah, the technical aspects of the film and some of the ways that it's written, some of the ways that it's performed, it definitely gives off. You know, we talked about this. I don't even want to say a documentary vibe because I don't even know that it's documentary. It kind of gives off a reality TV vibe, frankly.
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Cullen
Which interestingly, because, you know, and again, that is something we kind of in our preliminary chat, we just kind of brushed by. But it's interesting, as Herzog has said, that he's a really big fan of reality TV and like Keeping Up with the Kardashians and all that stuff. So it was hilarious.
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Clark
When he said that it is hysterical and I don't buy it and I totally buy it because I know he is, you know, he's I've heard him say kind of similar things that he's inspired by. Real by the real on camera. Do you remember where he said that? I can't remember.
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Cullen
What what interview it was, but he.
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Clark
Okay.
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Cullen
It was Matt have been like for like a Netflix documentary he was doing in the press.
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Clark
Doing the press around it. Right.
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Cullen
But but no, it's in what's you know I think that that was one of the things that me and you agreed on, which was that it was like a lot of people are saying, oh, it sort of feels documenter, it feels like, but it doesn't really now feels it feels.
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Clark
Like the reality is it.
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Cullen
Feels staged and it feels.
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Clark
You know, Reality TV is of.
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Cullen
Course, but exactly. But, but it feels and I wouldn't say mockumentary either like because that's a completely different thing. So yeah.
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Clark
Definitely watching reality.
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Cullen
TV is like the closest I can imagine to this being, which is like, you know, the cameras aren't really supposed to be noticed, so it's kind of divorced from that. Yeah, but there's moments where it just yeah, it's again.
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Clark
Well, so let's jump into it. Yeah, let's jump into it. So let's start off we can talk about let's talk about some of the, some of the topics on the technical side here. So because I think it's really important and it's important in a handful of different ways, right? You know how a film looks. How a film sounds obviously has a huge impact on, you know, on the content of the film.
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Clark
These things go to pan, so let's talk about it a bit. So we both agree that this this kind of has a very much like a reality TV vibe. And, you know, a huge part of that is how it was shot. And so, you know, Colin, you took a look and you found a beats some beats photography of Herzog filming.
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Clark
And he did operate on this film.
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Cullen
Yeah, I did some detective work.
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Clark
Yeah, did a little detective work, which is awesome. It's a see, we're prepared here, man. Yeah. And I was I wasn't surprised because I had seen the film, so I knew what the footage look like, but. But he's using a kind of, I guess, what I would call a prosumer camera.
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Cullen
Yeah. So it's like a it's a few thousand dollar USD.
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Clark
But it's an extra.
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Cullen
Yeah, yeah. And XF 0405 is right in model, which is a 4K fixed lens.
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Clark
Yeah, it's, you know, 4K fixed lens. It's and it's very much a camcorder. It's not a cinema camera by any stretch. And Herzog, you know, at least I saw the film, I rented it on Amazon Prime. But I think the Q&A is, or the intros are available because you were able to find the Q&A.
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Cullen
I rented it, so I got a movie free subscription like Free Trial. Okay.
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Clark
So you were able to watch it on movie? Who? Yeah, who distributed this film? So Herzog talks a little bit about, you know, his choice here. And I think there are a couple of practical reasons that he directly mentions. And Colin, you and I are going to maybe make some guesses, some educated guesses as to well, some other reasons he picked this camera.
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Clark
But but he you know, he he wanted something first and foremost that he could operate by himself that had excellent inputs, which are basically a pro type of audio input. Yeah. Where you can, you know, whether it's your your boom your or your, your labs, you can plug directly into camera. And and I think too, he stole a lot of shots We know that he stole maybe all of the location shots.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
I don't think there was any permit getting any.
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Clark
At the train station.
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Cullen
And things like that. Yeah. It all seemed very. Yeah. You know.
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Clark
Guerrilla. He needed something small that wouldn't because it's he discusses specifically how difficult it is to shoot in Tokyo that getting permits is very difficult and can be very expensive. So his exteriors where he's shooting at the park, he shoot there's a there's a scene that takes place in a train station, which I found really intriguing. We're going to get to all these scenes in a minute here, but he had to have something small that didn't look like like a film crew where he could probably kind of pass off as a tourist.
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Clark
And I liked.
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Cullen
That. Yeah. Likely that the actors were just wearing lab wireless labs.
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Clark
That's my guess.
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Cullen
In the image. Again, you can see what looks like what looks like audio transmitters in the excellent report. So, yeah, you know, very and and we also mentioned other day too that looks like no shots or artificially lit like there was no manipulation of light.
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Clark
Don't think so at all.
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Cullen
Right. Even in the interior scenes like it doesn't even look like.
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Clark
They put it doesn't.
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Cullen
Flags or anything like that. Yeah. Looks very much a final location. We've got our camcorder and we're going for it. Yeah. Which can I mean, to be fair, I mean, I can understand why some people were put off by that. There was, there were things in this movie that I really liked, but then there were things that didn't quite work.
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Cullen
You know, super well for me.
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Clark
Yeah. Let's go into some of the detail because, I mean, the film does, you know, so, you know, shooting it with the prosumer camera, with the fixed lens, you know, we've got, you know, really, really, really wide depth of focus. I mean, pretty much, you know. So it's got a very video look. Yeah, we see, you know, it's all handheld.
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Clark
Some of the you know, it's and it's all pretty long takes. Yeah. Reframing on the go kind of running gun all of these things add up You know there's there's some challenges here with exposure in a lot of scenes.
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Cullen
Looks like it was mostly shot auto exposure as well.
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Clark
But I it's possible you know.
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Cullen
I can't I can't guarantee that.
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Clark
Verify.
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Cullen
That. But there's moments where it looks like the camera sort of searching for.
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Clark
Exposure when we move when we move focus from, you know, when we're in an interior and we move to kind of focus on a more lightly lit like, say, window, for example, I think you do kind of see the camera closing down a little bit. But yeah, so it's possible. It's totally possible. So I mean, that's kind of the impact that that has on the storytelling is what I think's important.
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Clark
I mean, yeah, we can kind of speculate as to, you know, what kind of budget constraints might have existed for Herzog, you know, even though he's Herzog, he has I mean.
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Cullen
I know that he he said in an interview that that his reason that he did The Mandalorian, which of course, isn't really like him to do a big franchise like that. Yeah.
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Clark
But once in a while, like.
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Cullen
Yeah, wants to. He's a Jack Reacher. Yep. But he says that he did that to fund this movie. Like that was so right. His reasoning for doing The Mandalorian.
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Clark
Was so there you go. It's there's there's kind of proof then, I guess so to speak. And he has spoken to this about other films. You know, even for him, it's difficult for him to get funding. So obviously this is a much lower budget way to shoot a film. He's you have a very small crew and we know he likes to operate from time to time.
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Clark
And so that was appealing to him. We also know, I mean, you know, Herzog is big on urgency, right? We know that that's a huge part of his creative process, is to shoot with urgency, to write with urgency, shoot with urgency, urgency. And clearly shooting in such a small way, if you will, if you allow that kind of, you know, way to describe it, shooting this small allows you to obviously be as quick as you could possibly be when it comes to making a film.
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Cullen
And you brought this up, too, which is this idea of like I don't think Herzog wanted to wait to get funding for this movie.
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Clark
No, he.
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Cullen
Wanted to do his his whole point was like, I'm just going to, you know, get in my my gear and go out and shoot it and not wait for somebody to provide me with the budget for, you know, a better camera or whatever. Right. And again, so perhaps to get into kind of the nitty gritty of it, and that was one of the things.
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Cullen
So I when I was watching this, there were two movies that came up in my mind that really kind of related this to one of them was Tangerine, which was shot entirely on iPhone. Right. And I think.
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Clark
It was.
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Cullen
A really good job of that. Yeah. And then the other one was Caché, which is a michael Hanukkah movie from 2006, I believe. And I think it's 2006. Yeah. Autism five. Oh, so Hanukkah. And so that movie is also it's a movie that is shot on a like professional digital camera, but kind of back in that era where digital.
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Clark
Pretty early on.
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Cullen
Video look still and intentionally like that. Yeah. And the reason that I bring those two movies up is because so the subject matter of Tangerine really fits the iPhone like it's embraced within the subject matter. It kind of flows in and out of this this very low fi. You know, it makes sense to have shot an iPhone. Cash as well is about a man who is like he keeps receiving videotapes of his house.
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Cullen
Obviously, it's like hourlong videotapes of just his house from outside is still footage. And so the movie is shot on the same format that he receives those videotapes in. And the movie is also shot in a way that, you know, every scene is very still an observational camera wise. So you never really know in the movie like, is this a videotape or is this you know, is this just a scene?
00:12:04:21 - 00:12:22:21
Cullen
Right. It's a really smart thing to do because you kind of the entire movie is spent watching going like, is this being filmed or is this, you know, just a movie? And so the reason I want to mention that was because this is this kind of is the middle ground for me there. And there were things, again, as I said, that worked in some things that didn't work for me.
00:12:23:03 - 00:12:24:15
Cullen
Yeah. And so.
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Clark
One of the things about this.
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Cullen
So this this reality TV thing really works for me. I like that a lot. Yeah. So it's.
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Clark
Appropriate. That's certainly appropriate to the subject matter. Yeah, in a handful of ways for sure. I mean.
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Cullen
Yeah. So I, so when I, when I complain about, you know, I don't want to say complaining, but when I'm, when I'm like criticizing.
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Clark
Anything ever taking this.
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Cullen
It's technicalities or anything. I'm not critiquing that saying like every movie has to be shot on an expensive camera, has to look beautiful, has to because I don't believe that. I think that it fits with this subject matter actually quite well to have shot it on the set four or five. Right. My my, the point that it kind of lost me or that I kind of felt myself going was that, you know, not nicely taken out of the movie, but but kind of thinking about it and critiquing it, my mind was so there's the moment in the hotel they go to a robotic hotel at one point and it and it's basically our main character
00:13:15:19 - 00:13:23:10
Cullen
is talking to this owner of this robotic hotel about possibly using robots in his own industry, which is this, you know, this rental.
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Clark
And that's what I almost think about it. You think, do you want to let's kind of before we jump in.
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Cullen
Yeah, sure. Let's let's explain. Yeah, let's.
00:13:31:10 - 00:13:55:15
Clark
Kind of explain just a little bit just in case. Now, obviously, for those listening, this is going to make a lot more sense if you've seen the film. But but we'll go ahead and kind of give a little bit of an overview just about, you know, kind of the major points here of the film. So so like we've been describing, this film was shot pretty low fi and pretty simply it's a pretty small, intimate story takes place in Japan.
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Clark
And basically and this is this we're going to kind of get into some of these is kind of like meta levels of this. The the lead in the film is actually in real life owns a business called Family Romance, where in Japan they basically rent out friends and family members. Right. If you if your father's not available and you you're let's say you're a bride and you're getting you know, you've got your dress fitting or something and you want your father to go, but maybe he's passed on or he's not available or whatever, you can rent up an actor.
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Cullen
That's a very real, very popular industry there.
00:14:32:12 - 00:15:01:17
Clark
And it's and it's growing in popularity. It's spreading to other cultures and countries. And so Herzog was really intrigued by this, actually one of his former rogue film school students came to him. And then this person is actually listed as a a producer on the film. His name is Rocky Morin, but but basically, Herzog was was really intrigued by this idea and kind of the, you know, how much of our relationships are genuine versus performance.
00:15:01:17 - 00:15:38:23
Clark
And, you know, I mean, it's all of these interesting questions that kind of bubble up from that. How much of our, you know, are our relationships genuine and real versus kind of, you know, imagined? And it's just very I think the content is extremely intriguing and interesting. And yeah, definitely we're going to get into that more. But but in a nutshell, it's we follow this the the owner of this company as he interacts with a handful of his clients and there's kind of a narrative thread that goes through where he has been hired by this young woman's mother to be her standard father.
00:15:39:06 - 00:16:02:06
Clark
And we see kind of this narrative thread where by the end of the film, the daughter and the mother have have fallen for him and actually want him to to actually be in their life for real. And he declines. And he says and I think this is I really want to talk about this later when we kind of get more into themes and content.
00:16:02:06 - 00:16:25:07
Clark
But he says, you know, here at Family Romance, we aren't allowed to love or be loved. I think that's really intriguing concept. And then we follow our lead as he actually goes to his own home, which we've not seen at all during the entire film. And he's hesitant to go in and actually be with and interact with his own family.
00:16:25:11 - 00:16:25:18
Cullen
Yeah.
00:16:26:02 - 00:16:34:06
Clark
So, so that's kind of the context of just, you know, where we're going to start talking about some things. I just thought that might be beneficial. I don't mean Yeah.
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Cullen
No, totally. And so, so.
00:16:35:22 - 00:16:37:13
Clark
So so what's important to note.
00:16:37:13 - 00:16:57:20
Cullen
Too is that it's it's that he was going through Herzog, was going through a casting process and decided instead to to just cast the real guy. So this this real owner of this business was just helping him cast. And then Herzog was like, hang on, why don't I just use you? So then that again, comes into this whole reality television.
00:16:57:20 - 00:17:04:17
Clark
Thing, and if I'm not mistaken, weren't some of the other actors in this film? They were from his agency, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
00:17:05:03 - 00:17:21:20
Cullen
So, so. So anyway, so there's this moment where he's in this this robot hotel, which is in Japan, of course, and Tokyo. Right. And he's talking to the owner basically saying like, Yeah, you know what? I'm kind of interested in looking at the application of robots, like realistic looking robots for my business.
00:17:21:20 - 00:17:22:10
Clark
Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:22:23 - 00:17:31:15
Cullen
And then it's very you know, it's shot like a lot. Like, it feels like that's one of the ones where it feels very, you know, and I only say this documentary in terms.
00:17:31:16 - 00:17:32:12
Clark
Feels like reality.
00:17:32:18 - 00:17:37:14
Cullen
It feels like Herzog's like it feels like it could be in one of Herzog's nonfiction films.
00:17:37:16 - 00:17:41:04
Clark
Okay. Which which you're talking about the robot fish and no, no, no.
00:17:41:04 - 00:17:50:01
Cullen
When he's when he's talking to the guy, when he's talking to the owner, it's like it's it's shot like, like, you know, because I mean, the reason I'm hesitant to say documentaries because, well.
00:17:50:03 - 00:18:11:11
Clark
Let's describe it. I mean, let's talk about why let's let's kind of paint a picture for people just in there. What like, let's get specific. So set the scene here. So we've got our our lead character has come into this very small lobby, like you said, robot hotel. And what makes it a robot hotel is that the what would you call it, desk clerk, concierge, I guess.
00:18:11:14 - 00:18:15:15
Cullen
I think everything is robotic and services desk clearly fake.
00:18:15:15 - 00:18:34:16
Clark
I mean, it's like very clearly a rubberized, you know, animatronic kind of robot dude just constantly saying like, please sign in, please sign it. And I go for it over something similar to that, not verbatim, but close. And there's this large aquarium over to the side that has these very brightly painted, I guess, made. Are they supposed to be koi fish?
00:18:34:16 - 00:18:49:04
Clark
Maybe. But they're robotic, They're they're plastic and metal and they're they're machinery. So just to kind of give paint to paint a picture of of what you're talking about. So so let's get into that then. So you were saying I.
00:18:49:04 - 00:19:19:09
Cullen
Mean then the Yeah. So again, the reason that I like when I say, you know, I as we said at the beginning, it's much more reality television than it is feeling like a documentary. But this particular scene feels like Herzog documentary in that it feels like you could take this scene where he's talking to the owner. What about kind of just the the the floating camera where he's into, like I could replace my hero who is the main character who's who's talking his man with Herzog.
00:19:20:01 - 00:19:27:14
Cullen
Like, I could have you could pull out Herzog or you could put out my hero and put Herzog in that situation. And if this were a real documentary that Herzog was making, you know, this.
00:19:28:00 - 00:19:30:11
Clark
Is she is she is the the man.
00:19:30:12 - 00:19:32:07
Cullen
Oh, sorry. Yeah. My hero is the daughter.
00:19:32:08 - 00:19:33:23
Clark
My hero is the daughter. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
00:19:33:23 - 00:19:55:23
Cullen
Sorry. Issue. If you were to put Herzog in his shoes there, it would be in. This was a documentary about this robot hotel or something like that. And this was, you know, nonfiction Herzog movie. It will be shot the same way. It would be asking the same questions. It would be, you know, like it was that kind of thing where I was like, this feels like you could put this scene in, you know, for, you know, to relate to our last episode.
00:19:55:23 - 00:20:16:19
Cullen
You could put the scene in Nomad and it would be shot the same way. Yeah, great. But then there's this moment so that that happens. And then she goes over to this fish tank and it's this robotic. There are all these robot fish and he's standing there for a good, you know, it must be two or 3 minutes of this shot where it's just him looking at these robotic fish and you've got this very Herzog.
00:20:16:19 - 00:20:26:17
Cullen
It's the same composer of music that did No. Madden has done a ton of other Herzog works, and you've got this music going as he stares at this, these fish. And so that was a very long time.
00:20:26:17 - 00:20:38:13
Clark
But yeah, and makes the shot so significant as he holds on this. It's like 3 minutes. You see, looking at these these robotic fish in this tank for literally like 3 minutes.
00:20:38:13 - 00:20:53:16
Cullen
Yeah. And so so that was the point where I sort of thought, you know, to me at least you need to and as we've discussed in our previous episodes, where it's like Herzog specifically says, you know, there's no esthetic to me. I don't I don't go where he's going.
00:20:53:16 - 00:20:55:04
Clark
Oh, conscientious. He's yeah.
00:20:55:04 - 00:20:58:19
Cullen
Yeah. So he's like, I'm not going into my movie thinking machine to make the decision to.
00:20:58:19 - 00:20:59:06
Clark
Make and.
00:20:59:06 - 00:21:29:13
Cullen
Have an esthetic. Yeah, it just happens. And this was this was kind of one of those things where and again there are a lot of things that I liked about the movie, but one of things that I thought would have perhaps made it feel more cohesive was really limiting. The Herzog isms. These moments where you have this like Gregorian music and these long takes of whether it's him looking at the the fish or it's these like drone shots of Tokyo and you've got this Gregorian strings and chant music kind of thing that is very, very Herzog.
00:21:29:20 - 00:21:54:05
Cullen
I thought you know, that to me pulls me out of this reality TV feeling pulls me out of this lo fi, you know, this low fi kind of engaging style and and seems like it's kind of sitting on the fence of like, you know, do I want to be a more traditional Herzog movie, which, of course, most of his other movies do have budgets to shoot either on film or or larger cinema cameras and things like that.
00:21:54:05 - 00:22:25:17
Cullen
Yeah. And so it was one of those things where I was thinking there's these moments where, yeah, like there's a few moments like that in the movie where I just thought, you know, if they had perhaps maybe disciplined, like perhaps using a little bit more of a stylistic discipline and gone, I'm going to shoot it like this kind of and that's why I related it to Caché and Tangerine, where it's like this stylistic discipline of those movies is very, very clear and very important because that because the subject matter is so intertwined with the medium.
00:22:25:17 - 00:22:48:16
Cullen
And for the most part, this movie is as well. Most of the subject matter in this movie is very much intertwined with this. A low fi camcorder, you know, look, and it was just these moments, these brief moments of like very Herzog kind of, again, this fish bit where it's like you hear the chants or these drone shots or this other moment where they go to the sea and there's this phone, which is actually we found this out.
00:22:48:21 - 00:22:51:12
Cullen
It's a real thing where there's this telephone on the edge of the.
00:22:51:12 - 00:22:55:02
Clark
Ocean, this particular one is manufactured. This it's yeah.
00:22:55:04 - 00:22:57:02
Cullen
Yeah, yeah there. But it's a real.
00:22:57:05 - 00:23:00:16
Clark
There's a real, a real thing. Right. Where I think it's like after.
00:23:00:16 - 00:23:01:20
Cullen
The tsunami I think. Right.
00:23:01:20 - 00:23:14:06
Clark
There's someone established like a phone booth basically to kind of symbolically people could try to call out to those lost family and friends. Right. Who had been taken by the tsunami. Is that correct? Do I have that right?
00:23:14:14 - 00:23:15:01
Cullen
Yes.
00:23:15:01 - 00:23:15:07
Clark
Yeah.
00:23:15:11 - 00:23:21:04
Cullen
And so it's like this it's like you're calling your your you know, your passed away relatives. Well, I'm going to Ocean and.
00:23:22:01 - 00:23:32:19
Clark
I'm going to play a little you know, I'm going to play a little little devil's advocate here because I do want to walk through the film and I kind of, you know, the most the most interesting aspect to this film for me is it is what it's saying. Ah, it's.
00:23:32:20 - 00:23:33:14
Cullen
Yes, yes.
00:23:33:14 - 00:24:02:13
Clark
Content. I know. For you too. I know for you, too. And we kind of start off talking about some of these technical things to give it some kind of context, because obviously it's important too. But, you know, just knowing Herzog and having seen so many of it, not knowing him personally, not trying to say it, but knowing his work, you know, it's certainly, you know, one of the tactics he uses in his filmmaking is to hold for very long periods of time on things that I think he sees as deranged that he's in.
00:24:02:13 - 00:24:23:16
Clark
We've talked about this last episode. We went like way in depth with this. And I think, you know and I know it works for me when, you know, and let's use the scene that you had brought up with this fish. And, you know, he's literally holding for like 3 minutes on this fish when I when I first see it, let's say, like if we would have only had this tape for 5 seconds, right.
00:24:23:16 - 00:24:50:07
Clark
He looks at the fish, I wouldn't really think much about the fish. I wouldn't really notice much about the fish and it wouldn't have any kind of real gravitas or meaning to me. But when he holds on this fish for 3 minutes and I'm forced to look at it, it starts to distort and become gruesome. And I start to see that the paint is all peeled off the sides because it just keeps going back and forth in this tank.
00:24:50:07 - 00:24:50:19
Cullen
Bumping into.
00:24:51:03 - 00:25:21:23
Clark
Bumping into the walls, and it's rubbing all this like the beautiful kind of, you know, the facade is coming off from around it. And of course, putting this in the context of, you know, this the themes that we're exploring here, which is about, you know, about our in our you know, as we are seemingly more connected by technology, we are, in fact, sinking further and further and further into another substantial isolation.
00:25:22:00 - 00:25:22:22
Clark
Isolation.
00:25:22:22 - 00:25:23:06
Cullen
Yeah.
00:25:23:15 - 00:25:46:04
Clark
And we know that Herzog has a fascination shooting animals in his films, right? You've got the chicken in the vending machine, you've got the lizards. You've got I mean, in so many of Herzog's films, we see the importance that animals play in his films and his symbology. And there's two scenes in this film that are extremely reminiscent of his previous films.
00:25:46:12 - 00:26:06:06
Clark
But instead of real animals, they're animatronic or robotic animals. Yeah. And and they're they're similarly trapped, like many of his animals are when they're filmed, like the chicken in the vending machine. And so I think so for me, it worked.
00:26:06:17 - 00:26:26:05
Cullen
Well, let me let me clarify quickly to just say it wasn't the length of the shot or the subject matter of the shot that that kind of took me out. It was just a stylistic choice. It was like I would not have been like, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, because I'm thinking about it.
00:26:27:04 - 00:26:32:05
Cullen
I'm taken out of it, and because I'm thinking, okay, why are we suddenly having a glowing sounding?
00:26:32:05 - 00:26:47:23
Clark
I want to on the spot. I'll put you on the spot then. For fun. For fun. Yeah, sure. Like what exactly? Let me try to understand. Like what? Specifically with his technique kind of made you remove you from the immersion of the story there, and then.
00:26:48:03 - 00:26:51:03
Cullen
Well, again, just it was the the choice of the music there that very.
00:26:51:10 - 00:26:51:17
Clark
Often.
00:26:52:00 - 00:26:53:01
Cullen
Herself as a musician.
00:26:53:09 - 00:26:55:04
Clark
Maybe incongruent to.
00:26:55:14 - 00:27:08:08
Cullen
Had there being I think more more moments both with the camera work that was in a similar way of like looking at these these things up close. And it, it just it felt like it kind of came out of left field.
00:27:08:11 - 00:27:11:19
Clark
And that's valid. Yeah, that's of course that's valid. I just curious.
00:27:11:22 - 00:27:32:13
Cullen
Yeah. No, no. And I, it's, it's to me it's one of the things it's like, you know, again I'm like either go all the way with that and have that kind of thing infused through the whole movie or because, because when you just put it in there one or two times, it jumps out and it sticks out. So again, that's why I mentioned that phone bit, which kind of again, I in there related this to like Bergman in our call yesterday.
00:27:32:17 - 00:27:37:07
Cullen
It feels like a Bergman moment these like people on the edge of the ocean with a phone.
00:27:37:07 - 00:27:37:15
Clark
Right.
00:27:37:19 - 00:27:56:08
Cullen
And and I said you know it's to me like that moment also stuck out to me because I was like, is that, you know, we're going from this reality television kind of feel to suddenly this very arthouse like they're on the edge of the ocean phone calling it. Okay. And of course, I don't know. Yeah, I didn't.
00:27:56:08 - 00:28:14:22
Clark
Know that it what you're saying now. Yeah. Okay. So, so so so let me I'll kind of like say it a different way and let's see if I'm tracking with you now. Sure. Yeah. You're kind of like, okay. Herzog has selected by a combination of choice and necessity to shoot this film in a way that's very reminiscent of reality TV style shooting.
00:28:15:08 - 00:28:40:12
Clark
And there are these certain moments, the robotic fish, the telephone on the beach that to you felt like a radical shift in tone or style or both and and kind of felt like they're shoving in like an arthouse film and these scenes into kind of this what we you know, kind of this reality TV style that we've had for all the rest of the film around it is that kind of what.
00:28:40:21 - 00:29:15:04
Cullen
Yeah and it would again, it wouldn't be to me it wouldn't be nearly as like it's not that I have an issue with that style anyway anyway, because I mean, I would like Herzog so much if I did. It's more that I felt that it needed to be more present in in the rest of the movie. And it would be like the equivalent of of, you know, someone shooting an entire movie in that style and then suddenly shooting, you know, just two of the that whatever 30 odd scenes in a movie, two of them are shot on sticks with better lenses and better can't like that would be the equivalent to me of just like
00:29:15:04 - 00:29:32:20
Cullen
suddenly why are we why are we shifting so much? And I can I mean, I can when I say why I asked that rhetorically. Like I understand why in the context of the movie it's done. Yeah, I just don't necessarily agree with the choice. I sound very I don't mean to sound so pompous there. I don't I just I don't necessarily agree.
00:29:33:02 - 00:29:34:06
Cullen
It's all work for me.
00:29:34:06 - 00:29:47:01
Clark
I guess it's just opinions. Absolutely. It's like totally just opinions. And I don't think anybody out there is going to say, you know, it's it's not that we're saying, well, you know, Herzog, get out of here. We're going to jump in your spot. And do actually.
00:29:47:01 - 00:29:52:17
Cullen
You know what? I want to I want to say a challenge challenge to Herzog, come on this podcast and I'll tell you how I got a directed this movie back.
00:29:53:06 - 00:30:05:14
Clark
That's absolutely not. Well, we certainly would be honored deeply Herzog ever on this podcast, and we certainly would never be disrespectful to him in any way. But we're also, you know, we have our own opinions, and I'd.
00:30:05:14 - 00:30:09:01
Cullen
Be curious to ask about it. Like, yeah, I want to have to have a conversation, right?
00:30:09:01 - 00:30:15:15
Clark
We have our own opinions and we're not going to just, just love every single thing any filmmaker makes. So your, your views are totally valid. I just want.
00:30:15:15 - 00:30:20:01
Cullen
To I also want to point out there was a lot of things in this movie that I really did like. I thought.
00:30:20:01 - 00:30:20:18
Clark
That it was.
00:30:21:00 - 00:30:27:15
Cullen
His his work on like, again, this he's of course, we've talked about this so many times of his obsession with like the human condition and all that.
00:30:27:22 - 00:30:28:17
Clark
I think it really.
00:30:28:17 - 00:30:29:13
Cullen
Comes out here.
00:30:29:17 - 00:30:31:13
Clark
Yeah. And one of the.
00:30:31:13 - 00:30:36:07
Cullen
Reasons is because it is such a you know, I don't know if you've been to Japan, I've been to Tokyo and.
00:30:36:11 - 00:30:46:22
Clark
I have not. It is Taiwan, which is it's which has a large Japanese influence because the island of Taiwan was ruled by Japan.
00:30:47:04 - 00:30:48:09
Cullen
For a long.
00:30:48:09 - 00:31:06:07
Clark
Period of time. And so there's a significant Japanese influence, but it's very, very different than, you know, actual Japan. So no, I haven't, but I would love to go because I am intrigued by many, many aspects of Japanese culture. So I hope to be able to go sometime in the not too distant future. No.
00:31:06:07 - 00:31:28:23
Cullen
And so it's a beautiful like I like the country. But again, it is so interesting. Like it's incredibly interesting. How different. Yeah, just just priorities in terms of like, you know, we take our priorities of like, you know, mental health and social health and it's like we've got to go out and see our friends, all this stuff. There's just different standards of priorities in terms of like mental health there.
00:31:28:23 - 00:31:37:04
Cullen
I don't mean like mental health support and funding for that. I mean, literally, just like what makes people happy, what makes people feel fulfilled is an entirely different thing there then.
00:31:37:04 - 00:31:40:15
Clark
And and so tell me, so what made you think of that with this film then?
00:31:40:17 - 00:32:00:03
Cullen
Well, just for example, I mean, the idea of knowing that somebody is being paid to give you something or to like do something for you or to act a certain way as a relationship, come to your writing as your father, when your father's, you know, alcoholic or drunk or something, or be your father when he's been gone for ten years, that there's an acceptance there.
00:32:00:23 - 00:32:03:18
Cullen
And of course, I'm not trying to generalize for the entire population.
00:32:03:18 - 00:32:10:00
Clark
Oh, I'm I'm going to please. This is what I think is so interesting, because I actually think we all do this all the time.
00:32:10:00 - 00:32:20:15
Cullen
Oh, but I just mean in different ways that it's it's the like here. If this were a business here, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a business here in 50 years, because I think that things.
00:32:20:15 - 00:32:24:16
Clark
Are I think it is a business. Here is what I'm saying. It just doesn't look exactly like this.
00:32:24:16 - 00:32:32:06
Cullen
Well, exactly. But that's what I mean is that it's it's it's it's more here. It's things are a lot more about optics in a different way here.
00:32:33:00 - 00:33:05:22
Clark
So these are about I understand people see face different ways. So let's so let's kind of go I think it would be kind of helpful. We can kind of go through some of these scenes because I think, you know, there's there's these vignettes of scenes that kind of happen through the film that are would be good to use to discuss some of the themes in the content, some of the stuff you're you're talking about right now is, you know, difference is culturally and know, you know, So, you know, right off the bat we jump into the film and we've got Ishii who again is the is our lead.
00:33:05:22 - 00:33:33:22
Clark
He owns the family romance company and he doesn't real life it just real quickly before I jump into the scene, it's interesting to note, too, there's there's kind of a few meta levels of this that's really interesting. So The New Yorker a few years ago did a story about his company and in real life and before Herzog made this film, and I think they they wanted the journalist wanted to speak to some of the clients of his business.
00:33:34:06 - 00:34:01:07
Clark
And so he gave the information of this this supposed client for the journalist to go see. And it turned out that that journalist was speaking to another actor in the state full of actors of the company. And so you've got this really, and apparently, too. So once the journalists found out about that misrepresentation, then the journalists started looking very closely into, you know, all of the statements that had been given.
00:34:01:16 - 00:34:26:00
Clark
And apparently and I, you know, I don't know all the exact details, but apparently there are some really interesting questions about misrepresentation and falsification of details and all this kind of stuff in real life of this person, this person and his business. And so I find that very fascinating because this whole film is talking about what is truth and what is fact and what is fiction.
00:34:26:00 - 00:34:43:03
Clark
And, you know, Ishii's explanation for why he gave the journalist the the actor's address to go interview was because he he and this is I mean, this is I'm paraphrasing and who you know, we can only speculate as to what he you know, if he was just trying to get off the hook or if he really meant it.
00:34:43:03 - 00:35:04:01
Clark
But he said, you know, I felt like if you were to talk to an actual real client, that client would be kind of embarrassed and would be afraid for their privacy and wouldn't have actually given you the full truth. They would have given you some facts, but they would have given you the full truth. But if they sent you to an actor, it wouldn't have been factually true, but it would have actually been the full truth.
00:35:04:01 - 00:35:17:18
Cullen
And, you know, that is exactly what I was saying, is that we have in the West, or at least in North America, and like Western Europe, France, UK, whatever, an obsession with truth, an obsession with factual truth, with.
00:35:17:18 - 00:35:18:16
Clark
Facts, with facts.
00:35:18:16 - 00:35:38:11
Cullen
And so that was where I was. I was trying to say that there the difference between like a system, like a service like that there is if I am the kid, if I'm the CIA and my dad hires someone as my mom, yeah, I might know that that's not really my mom, but that doesn't matter because I can just I can just buy into the fact that it's my mom.
00:35:38:21 - 00:35:53:15
Cullen
I don't care that it's not factually true or is here. So and a great you know, maybe I have a really good parallel is there's the moment where the woman hires there's this lady that wants to be famous on shows for media and stuff. So she hires these paparazzi to go down the street and take pictures with her.
00:35:53:15 - 00:36:16:04
Cullen
And she's like, you know, this is going to blow me up. I'm going to be so famous because these paparazzi are taking pictures that'll make everyone think I'm famous. She knows that it's not true in the here. So I worked at at the Toronto International Film Festival as a camera operator in 2019, and there was so much of stuff like that of people that like really had no following on social media but called themselves influencers, had people like had little groupies around them.
00:36:16:04 - 00:36:41:09
Cullen
But really, just like those groupies were probably just their friends. But there was this this underlying thing of like convincing themselves that they actually were famous. Sure. So it wasn't it's that's the difference there is that in this context and culturally in Japan, it's so much more prevalent that that girl knows that she's not famous. She knows that she's looking out for the the optics of it, because that's what is going to get her to the point of just that's that's the happiness to her is the result.
00:36:41:20 - 00:36:58:16
Cullen
Whereas here there's an obsession with like we have a societal obsession with things having to be factually and absolutely true. So there's, you know, someone doing that here would be convinced that they actually were famous, would be would would have to lie to themselves and convince themselves that they actually were because they think their.
00:36:58:17 - 00:37:01:04
Clark
People are lying to themselves, too, but just.
00:37:01:04 - 00:37:02:12
Cullen
In a different way. To a different way.
00:37:02:12 - 00:37:27:14
Clark
Yeah. Let's go. Let's because there's some really cool scenes here that I think present like the one that you that you just mentioned. So let's go through some of them because I think that that we can we can kind of break down this interesting argument in different ways. So so like I was saying so Ishi in this first scene and I love how Herzog does this, especially if you come into this film without a ton of, you know, of information previously.
00:37:27:19 - 00:37:49:03
Clark
Basically we see this this man and this young girl who are I think she's about 12 in the film. We see that that they're talking into part. Right. And we think like they're really father daughter. We think that like there's this and they they maybe it's like a reunion, right? They haven't seen each other in a long time.
00:37:49:03 - 00:38:15:12
Clark
We don't know why, but we don't learn that he's rented that, you know, until the next scene when after this whole long conversation and this like kind of sweet, kind of touching, like it's a a daughter kind of warming up to a a father that she hasn't seen or known in a long time. And then we then we go move to the next scene where Ishi is meeting with that daughter, mother.
00:38:16:04 - 00:38:42:06
Clark
And now we find out and she's paying him for what that that the interaction that just occurred. I thought that was great. I thought that was brilliant. And it's you know, there's so many interesting levels to that, you know, And like you said, it's like we we have this young girl who's kind of it's interesting. I mean, I think it speaks so much to how we deceive ourselves all the time and that our life is basically full of our own deceptions.
00:38:42:06 - 00:39:00:02
Clark
And it kind of has to be right. We deceive ourselves about our own mortality because if we didn't, most us, if not all of us, would kind of lose our minds. We deceive ourselves about how good of a person we are. We deceive ourselves about. I mean, it's just layer after layer after layer of deception.
00:39:00:02 - 00:39:07:00
Cullen
It's ambiguous in the movie, too. Do you think that the daughter Masahiro knows that he's.
00:39:07:01 - 00:39:07:17
Clark
We don't know.
00:39:07:17 - 00:39:18:12
Cullen
That's a Yeah, exactly. Like we don't know that it's of course, left ambiguous but it's it's one of those things where because there is this point where they're kind of lying to each other, where she fakes this whole thing about her being on the beach in Bali.
00:39:18:15 - 00:39:18:23
Clark
Yeah.
00:39:19:01 - 00:39:24:14
Cullen
And it's, it's a lie to Ishii And then he, he sort of says like, you know, I'm lying to her and she's lying to me.
00:39:24:17 - 00:39:26:05
Clark
Yeah, it's so intriguing.
00:39:26:05 - 00:39:42:18
Cullen
So but we never find out whether or not she because because at the beginning it's implied that her mother mother's keeping it from her because she heard the mother says, you know, her father had a twitch of the eye. So can you kind of fake this? And he says, no, we we don't fake things like that because then it's going to be really obvious that I'm faking it.
00:39:42:22 - 00:39:57:19
Cullen
So clearly, there's some some kind of bit at the beginning where they're trying to her, but by the end you don't really know does Masahiro or my hero know that she's actually just hired or does, you know, we don't answer it, but, but.
00:39:57:21 - 00:40:16:11
Clark
But for sure, as we're going to see, I mean, their relationship grows into something that that has to be dealt with, right, as we get through the film. But so I thought that was I thought that was a really interesting way to introduce it. That was kind of a playful, fun way to do it. I think we also get to see some of the, like cultural differences of interaction.
00:40:16:11 - 00:40:42:02
Clark
Is this like very formal kind of way of interacting, which is just interesting to see. Like when she meets with Mickey, this is just it's, it's quite nice. And then we kind of move from that to some of these like side clients, right? So this kind of the Ishii my hero is kind of the narrative thread, but then we've got some other clients that we see and some of these are really interesting, and I think we've mentioned this a little earlier.
00:40:42:05 - 00:41:08:13
Clark
This next client is basically a woman's a young woman is getting married and her father happens to be an alcoholic. But it's interesting, the mother in the family hires one of the actors and tells them that that he's got epilepsy and that's why he can't be there. And then it's the daughter that reveals to the actor, No, actually, you know, this is really embarrassing, but he's actually an alcoholic.
00:41:08:21 - 00:41:45:20
Clark
And again, it's just I think that we're illustrating yet again and people do this all the time, these deceptions, these self deceptions. You know, people do this all the time. Parents or denial about the behavior of their children, spouses are in denial about the behavior of their spouse. It's I mean, it's just this is extremely common. And even our close list, I mean, often it is the closest relationships that we supposedly have with people that are kind of built on this foundation or propped up with all of this deception.
00:41:45:20 - 00:42:05:07
Clark
And it really is an interesting thing to kind of try to dissect. And I think this is a really cool way to illustrate that with this with this unique company in this film. But I just thought that was fascinating. And I mean, when I and I don't know if it made you kind of wonder, it definitely made me wonder.
00:42:05:07 - 00:42:21:02
Clark
I was like, what would I like? Would I fall into this? I probably would. I mean, we think it's we think it's kind of weird, but I bet if you hung out with somebody long enough, right, you hired somebody to be your friend or something. After you spent a couple of days with them, you'd probably like consider them your friend.
00:42:21:02 - 00:42:21:20
Clark
Like, I mean.
00:42:22:01 - 00:42:27:17
Cullen
Her saga asks is asked in the interview. You did a Q&A for the movie with a movie. Oh, I love this.
00:42:27:17 - 00:42:28:04
Clark
I know. Yeah.
00:42:28:11 - 00:42:36:11
Cullen
He asked the guy. One of the questions is like, What would you hire someone for if this was it? And Herzog says, You know, I'd love to speak Bavarian with somebody. Yeah.
00:42:36:18 - 00:42:48:18
Clark
And so soccer ball around. Yeah, I live in L.A., I live in L.A. Nobody speaks Bavarian. I you know, I'd love to. Yeah, I'd love to kick a soccer ball around and curse in Bavarian. And somebody would be able to say to, I love it.
00:42:49:06 - 00:43:17:21
Cullen
So it's again, it's it's it's this funny thing where it's like perhaps Herzog has bought into more like again that that was kind of my point about like the difference between perhaps North America, like a North American version of this versus a Japanese version of this. Is that perhaps Herzog has bought into more of the Japanese psyche, like the philosophy on it, which is that it doesn't really matter that it's not fundament really true and that you can be aware of it and you don't have to convince yourself of the truth.
00:43:17:21 - 00:43:37:02
Cullen
You can, you can. It's in it's not you know, not to say that it is you know, I'm not an endorsement of like the psychology of this or whatever, whether or not it's mentally healthy or not, but rather just that there's there's a different I just see a different societal take away.
00:43:37:06 - 00:43:58:22
Clark
It's which is really interesting and cultural for me. I don't see this through any prism of cultural difference in that regard. For me, I don't think that the characters in this film are reacting any differently than I say. I think it speaks to a much more fundamental for me personally, a much more a fundamental aspect of the human condition that is just the way we are.
00:43:59:18 - 00:44:20:06
Clark
I don't think it speaks to any kind of like, is it a mental illness or is it this or that, or is it a cultural thing? I really think that this is actually fundamentally how our realities are constructed and how we manage ourselves in the world that we deceive ourselves, all that. I mean, it is so fundamental. Our lives.
00:44:20:11 - 00:44:22:01
Cullen
Are fundamentally absolutely.
00:44:22:01 - 00:44:22:22
Clark
So I guess I don't.
00:44:22:22 - 00:44:48:07
Cullen
I just I think I fundamentally I agree. I think that the details would be different depending culture to culture. I think the details of it of like how people go about it and, you know, the specifics of like, you know, again, just to go back to this idea of like that girl with the paparazzi, she's not she's she's you know, she's convincing herself that she's famous now because she's got the paparazzi.
00:44:48:07 - 00:44:54:06
Cullen
She's hired these paparazzi, but she's not convincing herself that she didn't hire these paparazzi. She's not lying to herself and, you know.
00:44:54:06 - 00:45:12:06
Clark
Saying and I don't I don't know if I get a sense of that or not in this film. I think that these people absolutely are convinced of these things in the moment and when they're happening. And here let me give you an example of why I think this is the case. And it's one of the sweetest scenes and one of my favorite scenes of the film.
00:45:12:06 - 00:45:43:19
Clark
I really enjoy it. So as we're following Ishii and B Hero, kind of through their arc, one of the other kind of like client stories, if you will are like, Say it that way. One of client stories we've we've talked about the the the bride with her fake father. We talked about the woman who hires the paparazzi. Another one was the woman who comes in to issue's office, and she's explaining that she once won the lottery and she had never before in her life ever felt like a winner.
00:45:43:19 - 00:46:05:06
Clark
And this is like really bittersweet and quite sensitive. I really feel that Herzog is is at some of his most sensitive here in this in this scene and this little story, this vignette. And, you know, she's I think is very well acted. I think this actress did a fantastic job, but she's explaining how she'd never, ever felt like a winner before.
00:46:05:13 - 00:46:26:11
Clark
And it was like the money meant nothing to her. It was not about money. And she had literally just been spending all of that, the winnings trying to win again, because it was the first. It was just a feeling like a winner. And she was explaining that she had spent thousands of dollars and she hadn't been able to replicate that victory.
00:46:26:11 - 00:46:29:06
Clark
And she realized that, you know, she could likely play the lottery.
00:46:29:06 - 00:46:30:08
Cullen
Probably never winning.
00:46:30:08 - 00:46:58:15
Clark
She'd never win. And so, of course, what she does is that she hires them to surprise her at some future point. And so that's what we cut to. We see her, you know, she's in her home, knock at the door. But it's really cute how how Herzog stages this. I really love it. It's like this one of the actors is playing like a utility worker and, you know, the utility, the fake, the not only I mean, it's an actor playing a utility worker who's like, you know, who's.
00:46:58:15 - 00:46:59:11
Cullen
Pretending to be an.
00:46:59:11 - 00:47:02:00
Clark
Actor playing the lottery like the.
00:47:02:00 - 00:47:03:10
Cullen
Lottery, pretending to be a utility.
00:47:03:12 - 00:47:24:07
Clark
Utility. Right. It's kind of a double double layers of this. But, you know, he and he has her like kind of, you know, sign this fake document and he's like, oh, your name is dotted. I can't remember. But. Oh, your name is what? Oh, guess what? You won the lottery. I'm like cheerleaders come out from behind the wall and yeah, she comes out and got like one of the dancing to here.
00:47:24:14 - 00:47:49:17
Clark
And it was that was such a like sweet tender like the look on her face and just this whole I mean, that scene really, really stuck out to me I think maybe impacted me more than any other scene in this film because her joy is totally real. And yes, there is a place in her mind where she understands that this is fake, but the joy that she is feeling is so real.
00:47:50:13 - 00:48:07:02
Clark
And and so it's I think that maybe what you're saying, I think both are kind of existing at the same time in each of these characters where. Yes, yes, of course, they understand that this is a manufactured situation that they've paid for this actor. But it doesn't matter because there's.
00:48:07:02 - 00:48:07:16
Cullen
Well, exactly.
00:48:07:16 - 00:48:12:07
Clark
Part of their mind that completely and totally accepts it. And it's how we do everything in life.
00:48:12:13 - 00:48:21:11
Cullen
But I ask where we perhaps are. We disagree with that. I don't think a scene like that, that lottery scene, would work if this was set in the U.S., I don't think that that would work at all.
00:48:21:11 - 00:48:22:12
Clark
And that's okay. Yeah, because.
00:48:22:12 - 00:48:23:11
Cullen
I think I think that that's where.
00:48:23:11 - 00:48:24:14
Clark
I mean, it would I.
00:48:24:14 - 00:48:34:15
Cullen
Think that that's what I mean when I say that's where the the it's it's the difference of this fundamental it's like this obsession with truth in, in, in like North American.
00:48:34:15 - 00:48:36:22
Clark
Culture. I don't know. But to me it would be so.
00:48:36:22 - 00:48:38:00
Cullen
Much more the money I'm.
00:48:38:06 - 00:48:57:19
Clark
Issue you on that because we live in I mean I like not to get into politics but I don't I think we I think I actually disagree with you to a great extent. I think that there is an obsession with what is a fact. But but in in kind of an opposite way that you're describing that that anything can be a fact and everything can be a fact.
00:48:57:19 - 00:49:12:15
Clark
And I can decide what that fact is and I can make that up for myself. I think that we kind of live in a post factual culture here in this country. And I think that more than ever before, people are off on their own, making up everything perhaps.
00:49:12:15 - 00:49:28:02
Cullen
But I think that making up everything is also convincing that this is true. And that's exactly so I think that I think that that but I think that that's the difference. I think there's a there's a there's a there's a fundamental difference in the type of truth that you're dealing with in Japanese.
00:49:28:02 - 00:49:33:11
Clark
Culture that every person that deceives themself, that there's a duality in every mind.
00:49:33:11 - 00:49:57:06
Cullen
Oh, yeah, I just I again, I agree with you there. I just think that the duality is different. I think that there is a like, again, the reason I don't think that casino scene or the lottery scene would work in if this movie was set in the U.S., if there was like a mirror in American remake, God forbid, is because I think that there is again, I don't see anybody ever do like I don't see the priorities.
00:49:57:06 - 00:50:32:10
Cullen
And that's kind of what I meant when I said that, like visiting Japan was very interesting and very, you know, enlightening about the differences because the priorities are just different. What makes a person happy is is just different. And the things that people go out of their way to do to get happiness is different. So so like in a scene like that lottery bit, to me, the reason that that is so, so so like very, very Japanese in a way is because again they're it's very much about the result of winning the lottery exterior from the money like she says.
00:50:32:22 - 00:50:56:18
Cullen
Whereas we live in a society where a lot of things are simply about a monetary gain, but also the truth that comes with that monetary gain and stuff like that. So it wouldn't Yeah, I mean, again, I go back to that, that that analogy of when I was when I was doing the stuff at TIFF and it's like the people there, they had convinced themselves and lied that they would go with.
00:50:56:18 - 00:51:15:22
Cullen
So as far to say that, like these people aren't my friends, they are my fans, they are my groupies, even though they have like 500 followers on Instagram. And they would talk like that and they would absolutely convinced themselves 100% of this truth and live themselves the entire way. Whereas you look at the scene where she's talking to the paparazzi, she's very aware she's not hiding it.
00:51:15:22 - 00:51:16:16
Cullen
She's like, you know that.
00:51:16:17 - 00:51:23:05
Clark
Those people that you're describing at TIFF and not that we need to beat this dead horse. No. You know that they understand that it's not true.
00:51:23:05 - 00:51:26:00
Cullen
But but, but but people can convince themselves of lie.
00:51:26:00 - 00:51:27:10
Clark
But there's always a take.
00:51:27:11 - 00:51:33:05
Cullen
But I know, but they but, but they can. They can. They'll know that it's true. They don't they, they don't believe that it's true.
00:51:33:07 - 00:51:33:20
Clark
And they don't.
00:51:33:20 - 00:51:37:17
Cullen
Want to give that. It's that's that's the difference is that they won't they refusing to believe and they will.
00:51:37:18 - 00:51:46:12
Clark
I just I just I think that's okay And we could just I think that they I think that they I think that they absolutely in their heart in the middle of the night when they're like, oh.
00:51:46:12 - 00:52:01:01
Cullen
Of course they do. Of course they do. But they would never admit that. They would never admit that and they would not convince themselves of that. Whereas in in the scene in Japan, she's very openly admitting that it's fake. She's talking to them very much, you know, with the knowledge that she hired them. Whereas here it be totally different.
00:52:01:01 - 00:52:08:13
Cullen
That scene, that entire scene would play out completely differently. That scene would play out as someone who who'd hired that happened to them, surprise them on the street or something, right?
00:52:08:14 - 00:52:18:04
Clark
It it might. It might. But I think the fundamental the fundamental the the fundamental human condition that this speaks to, I think is universal.
00:52:18:05 - 00:52:41:13
Cullen
Yes. Yeah. I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm not disagreeing with the fundamental ality of the that that the themes what I'm Yeah I'm just it's more of the again like I said the details of culture that kind of that to me really are what makes this movie really interesting to me is just that again that those that it's like I don't think that you could shoot this movie elsewhere in present day.
00:52:41:13 - 00:52:45:13
Cullen
I don't think I think that this movie is a is a fundamentally Japanese story.
00:52:45:21 - 00:52:56:09
Clark
Okay. Because that's an interesting take it it certainly the culture is important to the story. I don't know that I'm convinced that you couldn't tell this story somewhere else, but.
00:52:56:11 - 00:53:20:14
Cullen
I think you tell a similar story. I think you could tell, okay. You know, you could take that fundamental whole truth of it and you could take that theme of lying to yourself and convincing yourself of like, these lies and, you know, going so far as to hire somebody to somebody else in your life, etc.. I just think that the the details and the cultural connotations, of course, of course, will be completely different because it would be an entirely different culture.
00:53:21:09 - 00:53:41:14
Cullen
But I think within that, I think the psychology of it is completely different to and the outlook on it is different. And that's why I think, again, you know, that's I that's why you look at this movie and think like this is a very fundamentally, you know, at its core, a lot of what it deals with is is stuff that is like embedded in Japanese culture, which I think is really interesting.
00:53:41:22 - 00:53:59:18
Clark
So I just curious to you so, you know, so again, just to kind of I want to try a different angle with you. So, I mean, you know, when Herzog's talked about this film, he doesn't say I was interested in Japanese culture. I'm curious about a Japanese story. I think, you know, there's no mention at all of.
00:53:59:21 - 00:54:01:00
Cullen
But he shot it there as.
00:54:01:00 - 00:54:01:16
Clark
A filmmaker.
00:54:01:16 - 00:54:01:22
Cullen
You know.
00:54:02:05 - 00:54:28:02
Clark
But I think, you know, but what I did hear from him is that he's he is endlessly interested in this idea of self-delusion, performance versus reality and how our our relationships are constructed and maintained and just how ultimately like every aspect of our life and every memory you have is kind of this imagined narrative that really has no basis in any kind of objective truth.
00:54:28:12 - 00:54:50:08
Clark
So, you know, I don't know. You know, so I mean, maybe I think maybe you're right. There's clearly you know, I definitely would watch clearly this is a film that is I mean, it obviously it's made in Japan. And clearly this is a phenomenon, this very specific thing of having a company that you can hire family or friends out from.
00:54:50:13 - 00:55:08:21
Clark
Is this clearly something that did start in Japan? I think it was probably one of the first places, but but I think only in a very literal sense. I think if you extrapolate this idea even just a tiny bit, you see how these things occur everywhere. It's just not exactly dressed up like this, you know, But I.
00:55:08:21 - 00:55:32:07
Cullen
Think I mean, that's that that's also like I'd like to reiterate too that yet yeah there's very much the theme of this movie is very much universal and it very much, you know, exceeds the bounds of just Japan. But it does I just think like honestly it's and it's not even a negative to me it's more of a positive because I would be interested to see how different cultures would take this idea.
00:55:32:13 - 00:55:44:01
Cullen
That's not true. And so that's that's why I mention this idea of like like I think again, I think that paparazzi scene would go differently if it was if it's set in, it's possible North America or in Europe or.
00:55:44:06 - 00:55:53:16
Clark
I don't know if it would be like materially different, but but I'm sure that it would that the the the specifics of it would probably look different.
00:55:54:08 - 00:56:05:06
Cullen
I just yeah, I think that there would be a difference in just the again, you know, perhaps not to go on about this for too much longer but I think yeah.
00:56:05:09 - 00:56:06:20
Clark
Because I think that's gone on long ago.
00:56:06:20 - 00:56:20:23
Cullen
But I, I just, I to me think like again that's a positive to me to think that like okay this how how would this shape out differently in different societies and you know just generally how you know yeah.
00:56:21:05 - 00:56:39:05
Clark
Well what is the other scene so let's try to move on though so we don't I think we kind of get in a in a place where we're saying the same stuff over and over a little bit, like let's move on to a couple of the scenes that we haven't talked about yet. One of the another scene that I was actually I really enjoyed, it was kind of one of my favorites was the train station scene.
00:56:39:05 - 00:56:57:15
Clark
So we know that Herzog stole the scene and he kind of tells a story about how he had to, you know, run away from the steal the shot and run away from the the security or the employees there at the train station. And apparently Japanese take very, very, very seriously their train stations and being on time and and everything.
00:56:58:11 - 00:57:14:14
Clark
But it's so interesting because we we cut into the scene now again, this is another one of those kind of like decide client stories if you wish. That's off of the hero story where there is an employee. Well it's actually we start off or Ishi is being just like railed on by.
00:57:14:18 - 00:57:16:09
Cullen
Berated berated.
00:57:16:09 - 00:57:31:14
Clark
By the like supervisor. He's clearly like a train station supervisor and he's like, you know what? How in the hell did you let this happen? You know, you, you, you let the train leave. 20 seconds early. That's like, that's the worst thing that you could have done. It just screws up everything. And it's even.
00:57:31:14 - 00:57:33:02
Cullen
Worse than going 20 seconds late.
00:57:33:02 - 00:57:57:18
Clark
And it separated all these kids from their parents. Oh, my gosh, whatever. And it's hysterical. And like, you see, like it's down on his hands and knees and he's like, you know, very like. And and finally the supervisor leaves and she gets back up and there's this other guy standing there and he's like, Oh, thank you so much for taking the you know, taking all of that for me is like, Oh my gosh, I wouldn't have been able to have handled all of this like, you know, berating had you not been there for me.
00:57:58:02 - 00:58:19:13
Clark
And I was like, this is so interesting. It's like, that's something. And, and so, I mean, your point is definitely valid. There are cultural differences here and how, you know, how people interact with their supervisors and how people perceive their their job positions and their, you know, the responsibilities. And as an employee, I mean, there are a lot of different cultural things here.
00:58:19:15 - 00:58:36:15
Clark
There's no question. I mean, but this was so interesting. I would have never thought of this, like how you can hire someone to take shame for you was such an interesting concept. So I just I don't know if you had any specific thoughts about that scene, but I just. Oh, I like that.
00:58:36:17 - 00:58:53:04
Cullen
Yeah. I actually it's interesting because I at first was again, kind of thinking that it's a series of vignettes and some I liked more, but I actually, yeah, the more I thought about that scene, the more I liked it, the more I kind of appreciated its place in the bigger picture of the of the whole movie.
00:58:53:05 - 00:59:12:18
Clark
Yeah, I mean, it is kind of a series of vignettes and I almost feel like, you know, it's just Herzog is kind of, you know, Elice like, you know, using this kind of motif, you know, hiring people to to kind of pretend that they have a relationship with you and how different ways that could all play out so that we.
00:59:12:18 - 00:59:14:16
Cullen
Can and the toll it takes on issue two.
00:59:14:16 - 00:59:40:19
Clark
And right. So in that that's a good point. So in the narrative, the whole kind of narrative through with hero and issue. So eventually and this is interesting, the the mother and the daughter parallel each other and their experiences with each. Right. So you've got the daughter, my hero is starting to fall for him in some way. And I mean and we don't really know if it's like necessarily romantic or if it's just kind of a you know, she wants him to actually be his father.
00:59:40:19 - 01:00:01:16
Clark
You know, it's it's kind of vague and it might be a little mixture of both, you know, like a childhood crush kind of thing. And but the mother also starts to fall for him. And that's very clearly at least at least she tries to seduce him romantically, but probably not that very different of a set of feelings that the daughter has.
01:00:01:16 - 01:00:14:19
Clark
They're just wanting companionship and therefore spend enough time now with Ishii that they, like, have genuine feelings for him and that he's his presence removes some loneliness from their lives. Right.
01:00:14:19 - 01:00:22:10
Cullen
And again, unclear whether or not hero knows that he's correct. You know, an actor, it's it's unclear if she's the.
01:00:22:10 - 01:00:24:09
Clark
Mother that he does, obviously.
01:00:24:16 - 01:00:33:13
Cullen
But she but you're right. My hero is unsure as to you know, it's unsure for the audience as to whether she actually thinks this man is a father or she's looking at him as just a replacement and a father.
01:00:33:20 - 01:00:37:06
Clark
And and that's and I think that and the point is, what does it matter?
01:00:37:14 - 01:00:37:18
Cullen
Hmm.
01:00:38:04 - 01:01:06:12
Clark
That's I think your point is that that's the whole kind of blurring of this. And I just I think Herzog and I just I have a lot of respect for Herzog as a writer because I think it's easy to kind of miss some of these really sweet and tender and subtle ways that he lays out this story. And I think there's some really good examples of how he does that here, because, you know, of course, this is it's as I understand it, there are a lot of improvization here, but that Herzog scripted, you know, the significant points.
01:01:06:12 - 01:01:27:12
Clark
Right. That had to be hit in each interaction or each conversation each dialog segment. So so I think the interplay of Herzog kind of knowing where he wanted to take the story and the actors, I think actually it's really commendable. I think they they really did a good job. But I love this kind of this this paralleling of the hero.
01:01:27:12 - 01:02:05:22
Clark
So it's I love this moment where, you know, what was it? They go with somewhere where she's making a wish, right? Isn't it? So I think they're looking out at the boats at the at the on the water with like they're floating candles and talking about making a wish. And we really get the sense, the way it's shot and the tenderness of it, that she's wishing something about him being in her life and there's this really wonderful moment where and you mentioned the telephone on the beach where Mikey does the same thing, where she picks up the phone and she kind of has this private conversation and and she asks, you know, Oh, did you
01:02:06:01 - 01:02:32:03
Clark
did you call? Who did you call or something? Because it mostly it's like a symbolic way to call the dead. Yeah, but she's like, no, I actually like tried to call someone who's living and you really get a sense that she's that, that Mickey's doing the exact same thing that the hero was. And he just really parallels this like an and I think a nuanced, beautiful way that I think a lot of filmmakers would have been a lot more explicit.
01:02:32:03 - 01:02:57:17
Clark
They would have been a lot more on the nose. And and I just I saw a lot of tenderness. Yeah, yeah. From Herzog as a filmmaker in this. And again, like just and with the woman the lottery winner, I felt like that was really tenderly handled by Herzog. So I really enjoyed that story too. And then, of course, we get to this kind of the the climax of that.
01:02:58:01 - 01:03:16:00
Clark
I don't mean to no pun intended is no climax, but where, you know, he eventually like sets, tells the mother, hey, you know, your daughter, this is going too far. She wants to start spending weekends with me. This is too far. And then she moves on then to try to seduce him. Well, you should move in with us.
01:03:16:02 - 01:03:16:05
Clark
All right.
01:03:16:06 - 01:03:17:02
Cullen
Here's my bag.
01:03:17:05 - 01:03:34:20
Clark
Here's here's. And then she's late, right? She's, like, sitting on the bed, and she's got this, like, really beautiful dress on, and she's like, Anything in here, you can do whatever you want. Yes. It's a very, very, very clearly trying to seduce him, you know, even sexually. And he refuses. He's like, I'm sorry, I can't do that.
01:03:36:18 - 01:03:40:00
Cullen
And he's such a he's like, it's like it's not my contract.
01:03:40:00 - 01:04:08:04
Clark
But yeah, right, right. I mean, it's right. Which is so interesting, right? Where and it is interesting. I mean, I'm sure you have experiences in your personal life. I do, too, where, you know, especially like if you're working with someone, you have a professional relationship and, you know, professional versus personal. And it's just I mean, this this kind of, you know, the human relationship kind of thing is just it's so many interesting ways that we manage our relationships.
01:04:08:04 - 01:04:09:23
Clark
But I thought that was really wonderful.
01:04:09:23 - 01:04:35:09
Cullen
And again, I would totally yeah, like, I would I would recommend checking it out for that alone. It's like though, those moments like that and perhaps to to finish off so that people can jump ship if they don't want to hear about the really technical stuff. Yeah I do want to kind of like I made a list of kind of funny, not really technical gags, but just things that I thought were kind of stuck out to me.
01:04:35:09 - 01:04:56:11
Cullen
Like there are moments again and these are things that really like the movie I think succeeded in making me enjoy it, passed them okay. But like moments like you can see there's, there's definitely some post warped stabilization, which is basically, you know, stabilizing footage from shaky camera in post-production.
01:04:56:11 - 01:05:00:11
Clark
Because it's such a it's such a small camera and it was all handheld.
01:05:00:11 - 01:05:01:01
Cullen
So in terms.
01:05:01:01 - 01:05:02:14
Clark
Of these, like micro shakes.
01:05:02:14 - 01:05:16:05
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah, exactly. And so so but there's moments where in the work that you can see the frame of the the image coming into the shot and stuff like, like yeah. Being readjusted, which is, you know, not a huge deal, just kind of funny things that, that I noticed.
01:05:16:06 - 01:05:31:14
Clark
And it, it's rarely seen. I, I don't, I don't actually know that I've ever seen the edge of the footage come into the frame like that. But I definitely have seen signs of warped stabilization used in other. Yes. You know, fashion shots.
01:05:31:14 - 01:05:46:13
Cullen
Movies too. Yeah. 1917 the the the Sam Mendez movie, The one shot World War One just came out last year, had like it. I didn't really love the look of that movie because it looked like the entire movie had a warp stabilizer over it.
01:05:46:20 - 01:05:48:23
Clark
It's kind of gets a liquidy look in areas.
01:05:49:12 - 01:06:00:10
Cullen
Like things will wobble out. Yeah. Yep. But no, I just like there was things like with the, you know, just the color grades and stuff that kind of stuck out to me. But again, the movie succeeded in keeping.
01:06:00:10 - 01:06:01:13
Clark
Me in spite of these tech.
01:06:01:15 - 01:06:02:16
Cullen
In spite of those things.
01:06:02:21 - 01:06:23:10
Clark
And, and I think Yeah. And I could add to I mean, there were there were a lot of areas that were blown out. There was a lot of really hot lights on, actors, faces and white shirts blown out and skies blown out and a lot of technical things like that. But but here's what I think is cool. I mean, I you know, you shoot with what you've got.
01:06:23:16 - 01:06:23:23
Cullen
Yeah.
01:06:24:10 - 01:06:43:12
Clark
And, you know, I love the fact that Herzog goes out there. And I think, you know, first and foremost, the content is king. Like, what are you what's the story and what are you you know, and that and that's why you're here. The story that you're telling the the parts of the human condition that you want to explore in your film, that's why you do this.
01:06:44:13 - 01:07:09:10
Clark
I mean, I also, you know, I want to make a film as beautiful as I can make it or as appropriate to the story as I could make it, I guess. But but, you know, I think if anything, if you're out there and you're an aspiring filmmaker, you know, this is an example of how you can tackle a really interesting subject with a very bare, minimal minimum of minimal equipment and crew and cast and.
01:07:09:14 - 01:07:22:09
Cullen
Very likely just. Herzog Probably, you know, a few other yeah. Pays right production people and and the actors like I don't think there was any there were probably no boom mikes. There was certainly no boom mikes. There was no.
01:07:23:18 - 01:07:50:02
Clark
You don't have. Phillips You don't have. Yeah. It's like, yeah, all this, you know, he didn't have a deep he didn't have. So it's so in that sense I think that's like a really empowering example. They should be empowering to other filmmakers. And so yes, I mean there are some technical shortcomings for sure, and it's not up to a level of fit and finish and polish that you would normally see in a you know, even in Herzog's own, you know, backlog there.
01:07:50:02 - 01:07:54:03
Clark
I mean, you know, you usually see a much more kind of finished product. But yeah, I.
01:07:54:03 - 01:08:08:21
Cullen
Mean, it's like I'll say off the bat in terms of like visuals, certainly not one of his more beautiful movies there. There are shots in here that I actually really liked. Yeah, but but for the most part, it's, it's, you know, it's you know, it's shot on a camcorder. You're not going to get.
01:08:09:23 - 01:08:10:03
Clark
That.
01:08:10:08 - 01:08:26:20
Cullen
Beautiful dynamic range or anything like that. You're and again, also for the most part, the movie doesn't break that. Like that is kind of within the realm of the subject matter is that it's not it's not supposed to be big and beautiful and and right. You know, it's not like a Malick movie.
01:08:27:05 - 01:08:39:05
Clark
Yeah. No, I mean, the subject matter is intimate. The way it's shot is very intimate. So I think it's appropriate. But yeah, I mean, so overall, you know, and we've talked about a lot of stuff here. We debated a little bit about cultural differences.
01:08:39:05 - 01:08:39:14
Cullen
Yeah.
01:08:40:09 - 01:08:59:21
Clark
And how this film does or does not maybe, you know, affected by them or represent them. But and I think overall, though, you can see I mean, it inspired us to have a lot of questions. And so if you haven't seen it, I think it's absolutely worth seeing. I don't think that it's in the top, you know, top, top tier of Herzog's repertoire.
01:09:00:03 - 01:09:30:00
Clark
But I think that it's certainly worth seeing. And I think the questions that it explores are absolutely vital questions. And I think as we move forward into more and more technology, greater and greater acceptance of social media and, you know, just being further and further removed from actual physical human interaction and and look at this. Last year, most people around the world have been more isolated than they've ever been.
01:09:30:00 - 01:09:37:12
Clark
So I think we haven't mentioned that, but I think that makes this film extremely pertinent and timely. But, you know.
01:09:38:03 - 01:09:52:22
Cullen
And as somebody said, I heard someone say in an interview once, too, that it's like and I'm paraphrasing here, but even the even the Herzog movies that I don't fall in love with are 100 times more interesting then. Yes. Than anyone else. You know that he's got such a.
01:09:52:22 - 01:09:55:04
Clark
Lot more interesting than a lot of.
01:09:55:05 - 01:10:07:09
Cullen
So much subtext. You there's so much to read into and to to really, like tear apart here and pick apart in terms of like, what does it mean? What is it saying what. So it's a movie that says something and that's, you know.
01:10:07:09 - 01:10:33:20
Clark
It has a point of view and that's and that's what matters most. All right. Well, proof that was a good one, man. Well, that's exciting. I think we could probably wrap up now, unless you have any final thoughts. But I think it was in just about everything I wanted to hit on. But, you know, actually, we do have something like we could take like a little bit of a left turn here if you want, because you and I, you had shared something that you've been working on with me.
01:10:33:20 - 01:10:36:04
Cullen
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I forgot again to bring that time.
01:10:36:04 - 01:10:38:15
Clark
Yes. You feel like you've got time. I could just quickly.
01:10:38:15 - 01:10:39:18
Cullen
Go over it. Yeah, I can go.
01:10:39:18 - 01:10:58:03
Clark
Over because I think it is it relates to this film in the sense that you're talking about working digitally and, you know, trying to emulate film and be, you know, give yourself a creative option when you do work digitally. So you've done some really cool work. Why don't you just kind of like lay it out?
01:10:58:06 - 01:11:17:00
Cullen
I mean, basically three or four years ago, I kind of I wanted to figure out how working with the budget that I had to make things look larger than in terms of budget wise than they were and that it wasn't the sole thing. Like, I really like the look of film. I think that it's like a really beautiful medium to shoot on.
01:11:17:06 - 01:11:34:06
Cullen
Yeah. And so I just started developing this, this process has taken me like three years to develop, which was just basically trying to replicate the look of film. And what would someone traditionally look at film and think that looks like film? And I went through a whole bunch of different phases of it of like trying to replicate specific stocks.
01:11:34:14 - 01:11:53:13
Cullen
And I basically landed on, okay, you know what? Screw the idea of replicating individual stocks. I'm just going to pull things from different stocks that I really like and put them all into one process. And so I just released that the other day, which is on my website, Poster Animal Pictures dot com. Yeah, if you're interested in looking at it and if you're if that's kind of up your alley.
01:11:54:04 - 01:12:03:14
Cullen
But yeah, and it's basically a film emulation process so that you can shoot digitally and make it look like you've shot on film. And again, it's not like for me, it's not.
01:12:03:14 - 01:12:05:00
Clark
Just a plug in.
01:12:05:00 - 01:12:20:11
Cullen
Or no, so it's a lot. It's what I really released was a lot, but it works with, you know, there's a whole bunch of different emulation plug ins, like dancer, like film convert that that I've designed it to work with. Perfect. You can also work it on your own. It's free, so.
01:12:21:00 - 01:12:42:00
Clark
That's not too painful. Well, I've seen it and I think it looks really interesting. I mean, I'm like, super intrigued. I can't wait until I get a chance to play with it myself. But I really think that you've done some great work there. And yeah, thanks to another another like, you know, another tool in the toolbox of, you know, expression and contract that is free.
01:12:42:00 - 01:12:43:17
Clark
I'm like, It's amazing to me.
01:12:43:19 - 01:12:44:14
Cullen
Yeah, go take it.
01:12:44:22 - 01:13:01:14
Clark
Yeah. So thanks for doing all that work. All right, well, I think we'll wrap up then. But as always, man, I've totally enjoyed our conversation. Yeah, I love it. I love it when we kind of have, like, slightly different perspectives or views that we can of, like keeps a little bit it, like, hash it out. It's fun. Well, it's good.
01:13:01:14 - 01:13:25:22
Clark
You know, it's like I, I, you know, I wasn't thinking of it as much from a cultural like differences, but I don't totally hear what you're saying. You've been to Japan and and and you're right now I think about it there definitely does speak to a lot of interesting unique aspects of Japanese culture. Maybe I kind of tend to like universalize things in my own mind, but I totally see what you're saying.
01:13:25:22 - 01:13:39:12
Clark
So it's a bunch of fun ways to different to at things, different ways to look at things. So that's good stuff, man. All right. Totally. All right. Well, we'll wrap it up until next time, everyone. Thank you so much for hanging in there for this like, extra long app. Yes.
01:13:39:15 - 01:13:40:02
Cullen
Thanks for watching.
01:13:40:09 - 01:15:44:20
Clark
Yeah, we hope you enjoyed it. Until next time. Take care, everybody.
01:15:44:20 - 01:15:47:20
Cullen
By around.