Cullen
Hi everyone, and welcome to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. I'm Cullen McFater and I'm from Toronto, Canada, and this is Clark Coffey. Joining me from Sunny California, Orange County. How are you doing?
00;00;12;06 - 00;00;13;16
Clark
And doing all right, man. How are you?
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Cullen
I'm great. I'm great. Awesome. So why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and say a little bit about yourself?
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Clark
Hey, I got it back over to me. Well, yeah, everybody. You certainly don't know who we are yet, but. But we'll well, tell you a little bit about ourselves so that you kind of have an idea of who we are and where we're coming from as we start our series of podcasts that we're going to basically dedicate to the discussion of Werner Herzog and initially his masterclass that he's got on Masterclass dot com, which Colin and I both have done and actually met through.
00;00;52;07 - 00;01;21;26
Clark
And then we'll probably end up discussing his films and his writings and he's got several books that he's authored and he's done an endless number of interviews both in print and on in video. But we're going to kind of go use all of that material as a jumping off point to discuss film, film, philosophy, filmmaking, even like creative process philosophy of art, and maybe even just a little, you know, application to life in general.
00;01;22;06 - 00;01;44;02
Clark
So a little bit of background about me. I, like Colin, said, I'm out here in Orange County, California. I am pursuing a career in filmmaking. I have only been doing so, though for about ten years. I'm in my mid-forties, so I started pretty late. I used to work in advertising, didn't like it, felt like it was kind of sucking the soul out of my body.
00;01;44;14 - 00;02;11;11
Clark
And I had always wanted to be a filmmaker and had always loved film. So I decided to set out to try to be an actor because that's what I saw on camera is what I saw on screen. And that was kind of the most immediate, recognizable role in the world of filmmaking for me. And I did that for about like, like singularly for about eight years and boy, do I have some really wacky stories from that experience.
00;02;11;11 - 00;02;34;19
Clark
But actually, I mean, it was a very great experience. But as I kind of pursued that career in acting more and more and more, I realized, you know, I'm going to have to to take on some of these other roles that exist in the world of filmmaking. If I'm going to do anything in this industry instead of just, you know, waiting for somebody to invite me to act, I thought, you know, maybe I can start to write my own stuff.
00;02;34;19 - 00;02;56;15
Clark
Maybe I can, you know, direct my own stuff, produce my own stuff, etc., etc.. So more and more I was exposed to these different roles and actually ended up really loving a lot of these things, although writing still scares the crap out of me. But what I really, really, really love directing and so I've kind of been putting my energy more towards that.
00;02;56;15 - 00;03;25;13
Clark
But I'm certainly, you know, I would say in the beginning of my career, but I have written and directed and acted in quite a few performances for the stage. And then over the past eight years or so in front of and behind the camera, from short films to even now, Recently, I am directing and producing a handful of documentary and narrative features that I'm in progress on.
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Clark
So yeah, I don't know. In a nutshell, there's me.
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Cullen
Tara Cullen Well, yeah, I, I've got less years than you, but I similarly, I started, I was interested in film as a, as a kid. I got really interested around the time I was five or six and I would use the old, you know, hi8 video camera that we had at home to make movies. And but as a kid, you know, and going even up to high school, I primarily did more acting kind of similarly to you.
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Cullen
And that was not out of a desire to be an actor, but it was more out of when you're a kid, yeah, it's easier to act than it is to make a movie because of course, you know, there's a little bit more behind being a director than it is just to, you know, go join a spring play or something like that or a school play.
00;04;15;10 - 00;04;33;09
Cullen
So I did a lot of acting, basically since I was a kid. I did a lot of improv stuff with Second City and places like that. And then when I was in high school, I went to a kind of notable arts high school just outside of Toronto, and so I became kid. It's like I took I took a four, four years of like intensive acting school.
00;04;33;09 - 00;04;53;14
Cullen
There. But I also knew that I never wanted to be, you know, an actor. I had acted in a few things and I'd done a lot of stage, but I never I always wanted to be, you know, behind the camera instead of in front of it. So all that while as a kid, I was making dozens and dozens of short films and now I, I teach a film class.
00;04;53;14 - 00;05;09;22
Cullen
I work primarily as like a freelance cinematographer, and I direct a lot of my own stuff, but my own company up here in Toronto. Awesome that I make films first are through, and now we're actually just gearing up on our first feature now, which is really exciting. And it will be my kind of directorial debut when it comes to feature territory.
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Cullen
So excited about that.
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Clark
Yeah, that's super cool. That's going to be really interesting, different, you know, kind of different histories, different perspectives that we can kind of bring to this analysis and discussion. It's so interesting that you actually did go to an art school. I did not. And it's really interesting that you teach a film class because that's a big part of what Herzog discusses here in these first couple of lessons that we can jump into.
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Clark
But before we do, I want to draw some attention to the name of our podcast, which is Soldiers of Cinema. And of course, we did not just make that, but make that up on our own, as cool as it is. But we got that from Herzog himself. And, and he, you know, not just in this master class, but if you go back, you know, I think that he's used this phrase quite often, you know, over the past numerous decades.
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Clark
I love it. I think that it's an awesome descriptor of what my my hopes would be or my ideal would be as a filmmaker, what I would hope to achieve would be a soldier of cinema. But what does that mean to you? What do you think Herzog means? And what, if anything, does that mean to you?
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Cullen
Colin I mean, on a on a very basic level, I think it's about not doing anything passively. I think it's about being very active in, you know, something that you like if it's a creative output. And of course, this being specifically about cinema and about film, I think it's about, you know, if you're making something, you're fully invested in it.
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Cullen
You are a you are a soldier, you're you're you would, you know, crawl through the trenches on all fours to get a shot. You would you would you would put your heart and soul into the projects that you're doing. Yeah. As opposed to, again, as I said, just kind of being passive about it, obviously using it as a paycheck and kind of meandering the 9 to 5 job that you can technically turn a film career into.
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Cullen
But I think it's about kind of which is hard to rejecting that.
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Clark
It's like I you know it's hard to believe but yeah and I think just you know, it's an interesting analogy to just, you know, on many different levels how although I have never been to war and so I would never try to presume that I would know what that experience is like. And so in no way is trying to diminish, you know, what you know, that actual experience.
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Clark
But, you know, I think a lot of people use that analogy for what making a film is kind of like, whether it's, you know, just pre-production, trying to get funding or trying to get hired or, you know, at every step actually making the film. I mean, it is kind of seems sometimes like you're just fighting against, you know, nature itself, almost.
00;07;52;23 - 00;08;24;14
Clark
The creative process can really be a profoundly challenging one. And of course, it's profoundly rewarding. But yeah, and sometimes your your fellow filmmakers feel like brothers and sisters in arms because your head is such a challenge. You know, But we can kind of bring that up in different ways over over time. And it's also I think, you know, there's there's a lot of points or there's a lot of points of conflict maybe between your ideals, your integrity and and compromise.
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Cullen
Even your vision, you know.
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Clark
Is that right? Right. And of course, certainly one of the things that Herzog is known for and he stands out for and he's an inspiration to me, is his his lack of compromise how how ever? I don't think I don't think that you could point to any one of his many, many films and say, oh, that was a compromised product.
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Clark
That doesn't happen.
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Cullen
It's never from a place of disrespect either, which is really admirable. Yeah, it's always a mutual understanding of like, okay, you've got to do your job. I've got to do my job. How can we both get what we want out of this?
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Clark
Well, yeah, or Herzog, But yeah, I think he's just he's an extraordinary example of, you know, of a person pursuing his vision endlessly. And I think that it's extraordinary. We don't have many filmmakers or many artists, period, like that, at least, you know, that are widely known because often it it requires such great compromise, whether, you know, whoever's paid for the film, your investors, the studio, etc., etc..
00;09;24;14 - 00;09;49;02
Clark
I mean, it's just extremely difficult to make a film of any size without having just, you know, thousands of points of significant compromise. So, yeah, it's so that's why we picked it be interesting to to know what other people's interpretations of Soldier of Cinema are. I'm sure that this is going to come back because it's it's such an interesting phrase that describes kind of an overall philosophy or a theme.
00;09;49;02 - 00;10;09;01
Clark
But let's go into some other things that that Herzog discusses in these first couple of lessons. And one of the big things he talks about is that he he mentions he's self-taught and pretty proud of that, I think. And and he kind of just comes right out and says he's like, you know, I don't think that film film school is worth it.
00;10;09;10 - 00;10;27;14
Clark
It's expensive. And I think that you can paraphrasing Herzog here, of course. But but you know, you can kind of teach yourself everything that you need to know, at least logistically, to make a film in just a couple of weeks. And after that, it's, you know, take the money that you would have spent on film school and spend that on making your own films.
00;10;27;14 - 00;10;43;17
Clark
And not a lot of other people think this too. But let's kind of discuss that for a minute. What do you think, Colin? I mean, as somebody, you know, you get you didn't go to film school per se, but you went to a performing arts school and you teach film yourself in certain capacities. So like, what are your thoughts on that?
00;10;43;17 - 00;10;45;04
Clark
On Herzog Take care.
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Cullen
Yeah, I think I think it kind of allows you almost when you're not in I think film schools are great. And what I always tell my students is that, you know, you can go and just just look at what you learn, look at the curriculums and look at things like that. And if you learn something, then it has value.
00;11;01;07 - 00;11;33;15
Cullen
But I think that the benefit that at least I've found and not going to film school and never like I've never taken film in an educational environment or anything like that, is is kind of the freedom to not have to worry about a lot of rules. And I don't mean safety rules, of course, safety's always really important, but I mean more in terms of of there's certain things that that what I notice at film schools kind of trying to drill in the heads of the students and it usually works I can tell the difference almost nine times out of ten, if I'm working with somebody who has a film school background versus someone who is
00;11;33;15 - 00;11;34;14
Cullen
self-taught.
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Clark
Yeah.
00;11;35;06 - 00;11;40;05
Cullen
And not saying that one is better or the other. But but I think that, you know, if you see.
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Clark
Some examples, like what would you So give me an example, kind of like some things you feel like that really stand out that you can kind of tell immediately like, oh, this person had gone to film school, even.
00;11;49;23 - 00;12;08;21
Cullen
Something as simple as something like storyboarding. And I know a lot of people who come out of film school who who don't storyboard, but I think that there's there's almost this kind of, you know, academic take on something like if if a shoot is you know, if you're if you're improvising a shot or if you're like, I'm not sure if that shot's actually going to work anymore or something like that, or you're changing things around.
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Cullen
One thing I often hear is, you know, from film school people is just like, Oh, what? We should have storyboarded. Whereas I often find that kind of organic coming up with shots on the day or looking at something and going, That would be a great shot. Let's change this too. There is actually something that makes films better rather than sticking to, you know, like kind of like a bible of production that you need this shot, then this shot in the shot, right?
00;12;34;17 - 00;12;41;15
Clark
You know, like maybe people who've gone to film school sometimes maybe get a little dogmatic in what they've been taught, perhaps. Yeah.
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Cullen
Yeah, that's a good word, I think.
00;12;42;18 - 00;13;08;19
Clark
Yeah, I think I've seen that too. And it's, you know, it's probably. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, definitely, you know, film school is often extremely expensive and so that's certainly a, you know, a very real practical consideration. I mean, I think a lot of people just flat out couldn't afford it. And I think you certainly I mean, I don't think there's any question that you don't have to go to film school to become a filmmaker.
00;13;08;19 - 00;13;22;02
Clark
So first and foremost. So if you're out there listening, you know, by all means, I mean, don't feel like I just want to say do not feel like that this is going to be some kind of, you know, obstacle that you're not going to be able to get past.
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Cullen
Like I'm making great school out of your career, right.
00;13;24;16 - 00;13;44;14
Clark
That it's a make it or break it thing. I mean, please don't. Please don't. Because, you know, especially in today's day and age with all of the I mean, I do agree with Herzog. I think that from a logistical standpoint. Right. From a technical standpoint, I do think that you can learn at least enough to start to get going and to make your own short films.
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Clark
I think that you can learn, right with just some YouTube videos. There's so many you know, you can learn the basic fundamentals technologically of of how to shoot something. And then and then you learn on the job and.
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Cullen
You know, yeah, I was going to say is that that you know people will often say the value of film school is that you're learning about like these professional environments. But every single time I've been on a set, or at least when I was starting to work on sets, there were no people that were unhappy to teach me something or to explain something to me.
00;14;12;29 - 00;14;31;25
Cullen
And, you know, rather than paying tens of thousands of dollars to to learn that I'm paying, yeah, yeah, I'm being paid at that point to learn this stuff, which is great. And I think that, you know, there's even a huge difference I have noticed on sets of and I've never run a bigger set like, oh, everything I've directed has always been very indie, very barebones crew, which I love.
00;14;32;04 - 00;14;51;26
Cullen
Yeah, But every time I've worked on a bigger set, either as a DP or as a camera operator, I've noticed even when there are things that the people that are at film school or were at film school are are treated differently than the guys who are self-taught. Not in a really not in a negative way, Like it's not like one of them is trashed on or anything like that.
00;14;51;26 - 00;15;12;12
Cullen
But yeah, you just notice that often the guys that we're at film school are sort of given more rigid guidelines and sort of said, you know, do this, whereas the guys that weren't at film school were often kind of invited to tag along to bigger jobs that they might not be involved in and things like that like. So while the people that were at film school on this actually was is a direct example for my job.
00;15;12;12 - 00;15;31;16
Cullen
I worked last year. Peers at film school were all told to kind of set up all the interview spaces and, you know, get the bars up with the the cloth and things like that and the couches all set up. Yeah. And the WHO at this point I was a camera operator. I wasn't working as a P.A., but the who were were not with that program from that film school.
00;15;32;15 - 00;15;51;14
Cullen
Yeah. Again, they were just kind of invited to tag along to different things and just kind of observe and they didn't have to, you know, necessarily be working and actually setting things up at every, every waking moment they could. They were a lot more, I think, invited to just come on and observe the process and things like that, which was really interesting.
00;15;51;14 - 00;15;52;27
Cullen
I thought that that was kind of yeah.
00;15;53;23 - 00;16;14;19
Clark
I mean, I think, you know, I think, you know, my experience, right? It's there's always a time and a place, but, you know, just a couple of thoughts to I mean, not to get too far sidetracked into like a how to as opposed to kind of discussing Herzog's comments. But just real quickly, I mean, you know, depending on where you live, I mean, there are a lot of opportunities to to learn how to you know, to learn how to make film.
00;16;14;24 - 00;16;38;11
Clark
If you've not been to film school, you know, some of them seem a little obvious. Maybe more so than others. But, I mean, you know, obviously grab a camera any which way you can and start to make your own films. There are so many resources online. It's just almost even, you know, it's tough. There's almost too many. But but certainly you can pick up the barebones kind of minimal stuff.
00;16;38;11 - 00;17;04;06
Clark
But, you know, like you said, I mean, go be a a there is even if it's a small production and you're in your town, you know, go shadow somebody, people are usu usually people are really open to if you're professional, if you're polite, if you're kind, if you're courteous, if you're not pushy, and you ask at the right time and place, in a way, you know, they're definitely you can find people out there who will allow you to shadow them.
00;17;04;12 - 00;17;06;17
Cullen
Yeah, there's no harm in asking. That's kind of what I learned.
00;17;06;18 - 00;17;29;20
Clark
So and it's a tradeoff, right? I mean, you know, you can go work for free on a production in order. Basically consider yourself an intern in order to learn. I mean, I've. I've done that myself. I mean, I, you know, even after I kind of had a career and had done stuff, I would, you know, I would offer myself up for to be a camera assistant, for example, for a couple of times so that I could learn how to operate a, you know, a specific type of camera.
00;17;29;20 - 00;17;48;09
Clark
This case happened to be a read. And I was really curious about using certain type of lenses, which they had. And so, you know, I was like, well, hey, I will I'll carry your crap and kind of be a camera assistant here so that I can learn some of this stuff. But, you know, other ways to you can learn that aren't maybe as obvious is kind of go in a different role.
00;17;48;24 - 00;18;03;00
Clark
You know, I remember when I was first starting out now I was pursuing acting. So it was, you know, felt a little bit more in line. But I ended up learning a lot more about what the crew did than I did about acting as a background actor. So I would I would you know, I did this for a few months.
00;18;03;00 - 00;18;28;23
Clark
I wouldn't suggest doing it for very long because there's definitely a law of diminishing returns. But for, you know, for a handful of times, you know, that was a way that I could get on a totally I mean, you know, the biggest sets out there. I mean, we're talking major studio feature films, major studios, television shows. I'm standing right there watching the actors work, watching the crew work, you know, and what you're able to learn about the hierarchy of who does what and how to set.
00;18;28;23 - 00;18;45;20
Clark
I mean, it was extraordinary what I could learn. And I'm being paid to do it. And because, you know, it's like you're standing around doing nothing. 99% of the time when you're a background performer, performers, a stretch. But you know, when you're in background, but you I mean, you can learn so much if you just pay attention.
00;18;45;20 - 00;19;08;29
Cullen
So I think and sort of in line with Herzog's philosophy, too, I think that my personal take on us all too, is like, even if I wasn't making money in any of this, I would still be doing it. Yeah, I'm really lucky to be able to make money doing this and to be doing what I love. And even, you know, I had no dreams that I would be working even on indie sets as a cinematographer as quickly as I did.
00;19;08;29 - 00;19;28;09
Cullen
And I was really lucky to have gotten there, you know, faster than a lot of people do get there. But I think that even if I wasn't making money, even if I wasn't doing that as a job, I would, you know, absolutely still be making movies on my own. As you know, even out of office, I would be you know, it would be doing and most of the things that I've made thus far have been at a loss there.
00;19;28;09 - 00;19;48;07
Cullen
They're there because I you know, I liked to do them. And especially with personal projects, things like that, like I'm not selling these to any big studios and getting getting, you know, royalties back or anything like that. I usually just release them online for free because I don't really care about, you know, making a huge paycheck off of my own things at this point.
00;19;48;12 - 00;19;54;24
Cullen
When I can do that, that'll be great. But but at the moment, it's just one of those things that I'm like, you know, I'm doing it because I love it. Yeah.
00;19;55;02 - 00;20;12;01
Clark
Yeah, for sure. And maybe that's part of a little bit of what it means to be a soldier of cinema to work through those tough times. But, you know, there are lessons further down the road here where Herzog does talk about, you know, financing projects and developing a career. And we can kind of definitely dive more into those topics when we get there.
00;20;12;01 - 00;20;29;10
Clark
But, you know, another thing that Herzog mentions in this lesson is, you know, and which is it's crazy to think about. I mean, it's so interesting to think he talks about how, you know, he grew up in the middle of the Bavarian APS and Alps and he didn't see a film until he was 11, which was which is extraordinary.
00;20;29;10 - 00;20;51;00
Clark
Of course, like most of you listening, hear it, myself included. And you to Cohen. I mean, we've been so steeped in in film and television, you know, from the from that our most infantile times probably I mean, it's hard to even imagine. And that's probably a big part of why his voice is so singular and unique, because he wasn't so much of that.
00;20;51;00 - 00;21;11;10
Clark
Yeah, but, you know, Herzog recommends watching films, which, you know, and we're going to find that this is this happens very rate with great regularity with Herzog. You know, he kind of says like, well, hey, I didn't see films until I was 11. And then he's like, I suggest you watch films to learn how to make films. It's kind of a funny irony, you know, a little bit.
00;21;11;10 - 00;21;43;21
Clark
But but Herzog talks about, you know, watching films to learn, and he uses specific film in that lesson. Viva Zapata as an example. He kind of just showcases he's like, you know, here's a great example of like of a character introduction of Marlon Brando's character in that film. And he kind of walks through that opening scene there, but a little bit, you know, For you, how important was that watching other films?
00;21;44;01 - 00;21;48;15
Clark
Did that was that a big part of your inspiration? Do you feel like it was a big part of your learning?
00;21;49;13 - 00;22;08;27
Cullen
Oh, I mean, without being by process of osmosis, Absolutely. Yeah. Like even if you're not actually actively watching films to learn something from them, you're just going to take inspiration from the things that you like. But I also, you know, on a flip side of that, I don't watch that many movies. Strangely enough, I don't have a preference or.
00;22;08;27 - 00;22;09;21
Clark
Kind of ever well.
00;22;09;21 - 00;22;23;08
Cullen
I mean, average before quarantine, I would say, was about maybe twice a week, and now it's probably one every two weeks. And I think that's just because I've been going to films and I think it's because I've been trying to create a lot and been trying to kind of get things.
00;22;23;09 - 00;22;29;08
Clark
What about what about when you were young? Do you kind of do you have to do like where were you like a film fiend when you were?
00;22;29;14 - 00;22;40;10
Cullen
I was definitely I was well, I was I was the type of person that would watch you know, I would watch the entirety of Lord of the Rings, and then I would watch the 50 hours of behind the scenes of the movies afterwards.
00;22;40;10 - 00;22;42;05
Clark
And you've heard of the ring? Yeah.
00;22;42;10 - 00;22;56;02
Cullen
I mean, that was insane. But like, same with Jaws. Like, I would watch Jaws and then I would watch the, the entire behind the scenes making of I would watch every facet of those things, even when I had you know, I remember one of the earlier things I had was the Star Wars special editions on VHS.
00;22;56;13 - 00;22;56;18
Clark
Nice.
00;22;56;22 - 00;23;09;22
Cullen
And those ones were the ones where you couldn't just select the, you know, obviously no menus on VHS. So. Right, right. You would have to watch the whole movie. And then after the credits roll, you would get the behind the scenes kind of special edition.
00;23;09;26 - 00;23;10;04
Clark
That's.
00;23;10;04 - 00;23;24;11
Cullen
Also making movies and things like that. So I remember doing that. And I think honestly, if you looked at those tapes, the parts of the tapes that would be completely worn down would be the parts of the special like the making of because I you know, I would just I would watch those over and over watching it. You know, An Empire Strikes Back then.
00;23;24;11 - 00;23;46;00
Cullen
I'm going to think it was Norway and being on location. It was just such that it was like it was like watching Indiana Jones and realizing that you could be Indiana Jones without really the danger of it, that that, you know, as a director, you could go and still leave out all these experience is Yeah, but, but you're there and you're getting paid and you're making something.
00;23;46;00 - 00;24;06;09
Clark
That's right. This was actually like an art and a craft and Yeah, could potentially be a profession. Yeah, well, you know, in Herzog talks about that too, and you know, about how he kind of first realized that that film was that there was an artifice, that it was fake, that, you know, he mentions that he noticed that the exact same footage was used a couple of times in a film.
00;24;06;09 - 00;24;31;05
Clark
And he's like, wait a minute, I just saw that, you know, that same guy fall off, that, you know, whatever it was. And that was kind of like an awakening for him. Like, oh, wait a minute, This is actually this is a crafted thing. This is, you know, and it's so, so interesting that you talk about, you know, when you were young, having access to all of these behind the scenes featurettes and the making of the director's commentaries and things.
00;24;31;14 - 00;24;53;19
Clark
You know, of course, people of my generation, we didn't have any of that. So, you know that all of the the kind of infrastructure is in for I mean, everybody knows what IMDB is now. Everybody knows box office reports, everybody know, you know, there's so much making of and that's that's just part of the marketing of films now is kind of the story of how they're made.
00;24;53;26 - 00;25;05;05
Clark
I mean, you know, some of my favorite films, it's like, you know, my pop in my Alien DVD or Blu ray, and you know, there's the film is 2 hours long and there's like 8 hours of, you know, features.
00;25;05;06 - 00;25;05;19
Cullen
Entry.
00;25;05;27 - 00;25;34;29
Clark
Documentaries, right? It's like mind blowing. But, you know, like a lot of people, like myself, generation, we didn't have any of that. And I'm curious, like, know, I don't have any specific recollection like Herzog does of when I realized that filmmaking was a thing that, you know, professional people did. And this was actually a career and there were actors and there were director, you know, and all this kind of I can't really remember when that was, but, but, but I am definitely a fan of that making of content like you are.
00;25;34;29 - 00;25;53;16
Cullen
I think it's interesting too, because I've heard like even Peter, you know, to go back to Lord of the Rings, but Peter Jackson basically said that, you know, you don't why go to film school when you've essentially got a, you know, 25 hour film school? And the maker of the DVDs, right. Like you go through every single facet of of the production of those series.
00;25;53;16 - 00;26;14;01
Clark
Really? Yeah, That's a really great point. You know, and it's so that Yeah, so there is just another resource that people have today that they didn't have before. And, you know, some of these commentaries, some of these making of's are definitely more useful than others. I and for different reasons but absolutely. You know especially, you know, go find your favorite films.
00;26;14;01 - 00;26;34;03
Clark
Go find films that really speak to you, that touch you and see if there is a director commentary or a making of. And a lot of times these may even be on YouTube or other places online, if not definitely on the DVD or Blu ray or HD discs, and some of them are extraordinarily insightful. So yeah, good point.
00;26;34;03 - 00;26;57;20
Clark
Another great resource I it's interesting, I don't know if there's any way we could really, you know, come to any true understanding of it, but I wonder if there if that makes any difference. You know, the generations younger who grew up just almost since birth, you know, steeped in this making of content versus people who didn't have any access to this, you know, And we had to kind of figure out our own like, you know, what was going on.
00;26;57;20 - 00;27;19;21
Clark
It I mean, I definitely feel like it kept the creative process a mystery for me until much, much later in life. You know, I do. I do very you know, I do remember thinking like, these aren't even like real human beings. Like, what is this magic? You know, not literally, but I mean, you know, like, who are these people?
00;27;19;21 - 00;27;30;05
Cullen
Like, like Herzog says about the guy falling off the cliff. And then in a later battle scene, he falls off the cliff again. And it's this realization of like, oh, there's something being manipulated here. There's this isn't just real.
00;27;30;24 - 00;27;40;27
Clark
And I just meant like, yeah, there's that. But it was just I guess what I was trying to say is that it took me so much later in life to realize that this was something that maybe I could do.
00;27;41;07 - 00;27;41;16
Cullen
Yeah.
00;27;41;26 - 00;28;05;12
Clark
Because. Because it didn't seem like real people. I mean, I grew up in Missouri. I grew up in the Midwest to non-autistic parents. I mean, it was, you know, so that's part of it there. But I mean, it was like maybe I don't know. I was just I'm just kind of wondering out loud. It's like, I wonder if had I been exposed to, you know, to to these making those more of this stuff, I'd be like, oh, yeah, they're just people like this.
00;28;05;16 - 00;28;24;09
Clark
These are just like normal people like anybody else. And this is just a job, basically, you know? But yeah, I mean, it just seemed like such a mystery to me for so long. And, and I think that some of that even kind of sticks with me to this day, you know, where I'm like, I hold the process in such kind of or, you know, I'm I'm in such all of it, you know, films that I really, really love.
00;28;24;18 - 00;28;30;16
Clark
I mean, Herzog even kind of, you know, in his films, I'm just like, wow, You know, just.
00;28;30;25 - 00;28;32;14
Cullen
Just like, how did they pull this off?
00;28;33;00 - 00;28;39;28
Clark
Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, what are your thoughts on that? It's like, obviously there's no, like, right or wrong answer. But what do you think? Just having grown up with all that stuff.
00;28;40;04 - 00;28;53;09
Cullen
And to go back to Jaws, I think that Jaws was the first time that I ever was affected by a movie subconsciously that like I got out of watching Jaws and I didn't want to slip out of bed. I thought I was going to slip into the ocean and to get over that fear.
00;28;53;09 - 00;28;53;19
Clark
I love.
00;28;53;19 - 00;29;10;11
Cullen
It. But but to get over that fear, I went and I watched all the making of of it, you know, three, six, I want to say six or seven at the time. Oh, wow. And I just sat down and watched the entire making of the movie. And then suddenly the movie wasn't scary for me anymore. Suddenly it was, you know, watching that movie.
00;29;10;11 - 00;29;29;24
Cullen
And there's still there's frightening scenes. And, of course, that still affected me and still do to this day. But the movie itself wasn't this thing that was creeping into my real life now. It was something that I was like, How do I get into that position where I can scare people and I can get into, you know, get into to making a giant shark?
00;29;29;24 - 00;29;44;17
Cullen
And a lot of that for me was actually it came in through stop motion because I had kind of unlimited budgets. When you when you think about that and it's very similar to people who do you know other types of animation is that or even something like writing a book is that you don't really have a budget for those things.
00;29;44;17 - 00;29;56;12
Cullen
You can do whatever you want. So I had all these Lego sets and suddenly, you know, I had a dinosaur battle in my movie, whereas that would cost millions and millions of dollars to do on a real set. I had these little Lego things that I could play around with, and.
00;29;56;12 - 00;29;59;15
Clark
There you go all the time in the world, time and imagination.
00;29;59;15 - 00;30;23;05
Cullen
And it's also the kind of the hardships of it, too, because the amount of times that the T-Rex head would fall off or something like that. And I kind of learned how how difficult it is kind of logistically to make these things. But now I think kind of to more answer your question, I think that what it did for me is it set up a real expectation and quite an accurate expectation about what it's like to be on those sets.
00;30;23;05 - 00;30;45;07
Cullen
You know, one, I think the one really great thing about a lot of those behind the scenes making of content things is that they usually don't sugarcoat things. You know, if something goes wrong, it's usually kind of, if anything, the focus of those those documentaries as opposed to a lot of other things that kind of just show you the happy side of it or just show you the the, you know, the everyone cheering along and being being happy together and seeing.
00;30;45;19 - 00;30;59;29
Clark
All those documentary, those documentaries are kind of trying to tell their own story. Right? Yeah. And there's no story if there's no conflict. So that's an interesting point. So it sounds like maybe you felt like those things kind of gave you a more realistic expectation that like.
00;30;59;29 - 00;31;00;24
Cullen
For sure, for sure.
00;31;00;24 - 00;31;06;22
Clark
It's hard. This is like hard work, just like anything else. I mean, yeah, Interesting, man. I hadn't thought of that.
00;31;07;12 - 00;31;30;10
Cullen
Yeah, I mean, it really. I think prepared me in that in that kind of weird way to do like, I know, you know, even even on a very basic level of just set procedure of like, you know, you learn why the clapperboard is there, you learn why, you know, what's the boom operator doing while people are setting up the lights and things like that.
00;31;30;10 - 00;31;31;27
Cullen
And you just kind of look for. Yeah.
00;31;32;06 - 00;31;49;27
Clark
It's it's like tedium. I mean, I think it's like it kind of I think that's it, you know, it's it even Herzog mentions this. I mean, you know, it's clear that Herzog this is what he's spent his entire life doing. It's is clearly his passion. And, you know, even he is like, God, you know, filmmaking can be such profound tedium.
00;31;49;27 - 00;31;59;00
Clark
It's like mind numbing. You know, I've like, literally heard him describe it that way. And, God, I mean, if anybody's been on a set, you know, it's like it really can I mean, it.
00;31;59;03 - 00;32;00;07
Cullen
Can be just him.
00;32;00;11 - 00;32;21;05
Clark
Grinding. I mean, just grinding. So it's, you know, that's interesting. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's, you know, so you were kind of exposed to more of the realities of filmmaking at a much younger age. And, you know, it frankly, let's be honest, I didn't have any exposure to that or understanding of it until much, much, much later in life.
00;32;21;05 - 00;32;35;07
Clark
I mean, probably didn't really get an accurate gist of that until I actually started, you know, being on sets. And it was like, oh, my gosh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. It's kind of a bit of action. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You know, like.
00;32;35;08 - 00;32;55;13
Cullen
Yeah, you just kind of yeah, I well, I've got kind of funny anecdote to that. Yeah, I, I watched George Melia at a very young age, like the Voyage to the Moon and stuff. And, you know, as many people might know, George Miller was a magician. And so that's kind of always how I thought of film. Like ever since I was a really young kid, was that it's essentially illusion.
00;32;55;13 - 00;33;11;26
Cullen
It's yeah, it's an optical illusion. It is it is like we are the magicians going out and and creating these magic shows. And that's one of and the same way I've never really been super into magic. Like, it's not like I ever had it. That was never like when I was kids that would pull up cards and do card tricks and things like that.
00;33;11;26 - 00;33;21;06
Cullen
But I've always been into more interested, if anything, in pulling back that curtain and learning how those tricks are done and in very much the same way, that was kind of where my interests lie and film.
00;33;21;21 - 00;33;53;02
Clark
Interesting. Yeah. So. So yeah, well, you know it and so like we mentioned, these are these can be powerful inspirations, powerful tools of education and information. I'm just curious, like, what were you like a handful of like those films that were the biggest inspirations to you? Do you kind of remember that I mentioned a couple of hands, but his but I'm just curious kind of what what do you feel like or a handful of the films that were most inspirational to you as a kid where you were like, I want to do this?
00;33;53;02 - 00;34;05;04
Cullen
Pretty much all of Hitchcock's big ones, you know, Psycho North by Northwest, Vertigo. Yeah, I mean, my dad was a big Hitchcock fan, so I watched a lot of those as a little kid North by Northwest, everything with that rear window.
00;34;05;04 - 00;34;07;15
Clark
You're not trying to sound fancy here now, are you? No, no, no.
00;34;07;15 - 00;34;17;09
Cullen
I remember I your window was like my favorite movie as a kid, and. Wow. And that was that movie. And I just made a rear window parody just a few months ago. So. Yeah.
00;34;18;14 - 00;34;32;26
Clark
But I mean, that's extraordinary. I feel like as a kid, I probably would have been so profoundly bored by that film. I would just be perfectly honest. I don't think that I had the patience or, you know, attention to, I think.
00;34;32;26 - 00;34;46;23
Cullen
As the hyping up of my dad that my dad would always talk about these movies as though they were like, terrifying. So I couldn't be bored because I was just waiting for the next scary moment in them. And now I'm thinking at all times that I was going to be horrified. So, you know, especially the psycho and things like that.
00;34;47;02 - 00;34;53;24
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, so Hitchcock's larger films, but what else? For some it's Jaws. You mentioned Jaws.
00;34;54;22 - 00;35;14;21
Cullen
Jaws. I mean, as I said, Jaws was kind of the first time I was ever really actively involved, like scared by a movie beyond just a screening that I that I kind of like gave you a list that you could or. Yeah, and I had no understanding of why that was. But it was something that even just in a really young age, you still sort of get that in your head that you can like, Oh, they did something to me.
00;35;14;21 - 00;35;32;06
Cullen
Even I can't put it into words as to why. Yeah, Jaws. I loved a lot of old westerns, things like a lot of John Ford's and oh, wow, you know, you can make it. My dad was born in 1955, so it's kind of what he grew up with, Right? So I think that's likely why a lot of that was passed on to me.
00;35;33;01 - 00;35;55;04
Cullen
And things like a bridge too far, like I was obsessed with with war movies as a kid, too. I remember one of the first bigger movies that I made with a friend was we made this stop motion D-Day movie about and we used for, you know, the little plastic army men and stuff like that. We had these sweeping battle shots where my friend would be zooming in on the the little figures dying and I would be pouring tomato sauce on them and things like that.
00;35;55;17 - 00;35;57;27
Cullen
So but it was just it was like it was like.
00;35;57;27 - 00;35;58;14
Clark
This unit.
00;35;58;17 - 00;36;12;10
Cullen
Because he would pan the camera to the left and I would run to all the figures on the right and knock a few of them over and pour the stuff over. And then he would pan back to the right and I'd run around the camera and all the things that were off screen. So again, it was like a magic show where you're you're showing you're not showing the trick.
00;36;12;10 - 00;36;13;22
Cullen
You're just kind of revealing.
00;36;13;22 - 00;36;44;10
Clark
Yeah, yeah. I think that's a really yeah, it's a, it's a very interesting and I think accurate analogy to make. And cinema is definitely illusion, There's no question to that. And, and often hopefully it's quite magical. Yeah it's that's that's really interesting that Herzog it's an older Spielberg flick that even though you're much younger than me your inspirations are films that were because they were kind of passed down from your father that there are older films.
00;36;44;23 - 00;37;13;18
Clark
Interesting. I think like for me, you know, my inspirations were I grew up, you know, well grew up in the eighties mostly, but I was born in 76, so just Jaws would be a great example to steal Berg's earlier stuff. I also but I kind of had a not as highfalutin inspirations as yours. I kind of was raised on a lot of genre flicks, so we're like, Your father was watching, you know, Hitchcock and and John Ford.
00;37;13;18 - 00;37;19;06
Clark
I my father was watching Attack of the Killer Tomatoes, and.
00;37;19;29 - 00;37;21;15
Cullen
Those were a lot of fun.
00;37;21;15 - 00;37;48;01
Clark
Mad Max and the Road Warrior and Poltergeist and, you know, these kind of films I grew later to really appreciate Hitchcock and, you know, some of these other. But yeah, I kind of grew up and was inspired by a lot of genre epics, but specifically Mad Max and The Road Warrior, those were two films that really, really stood out in my mind as just the physicality of those films.
00;37;48;01 - 00;38;12;11
Clark
And I think that's something that I really enjoy about Herzog's films, is that his films are very physical and, you know, I just want to make a quick, you know, it's like, well, who cares? We could kind of get off on all kinds of topics. You know, one of the things that Herzog mentions consistently is that, you know, he explains why people are like, Why in the world did you drag that that ship over the mountain in Fitzcarraldo?
00;38;12;11 - 00;38;32;14
Clark
Like, why in the world would you do that? And and and explaining his motivations for that and explaining many other of his motivations, he says because I want people to be able to believe their eyes. People can't believe their eyes anymore. When you're watching like a Lord of the Rings, for example, or any other number of films, all of the Marvel movies, you can't believe your eyes.
00;38;32;14 - 00;38;50;19
Clark
Everything is fake. Everything is fake in these films. I mean, everything. And I think that's, you know, obviously I wouldn't wasn't able to articulate it, but as a kid, Mad Max and especially the road Warrior, you you could believe your eyes.
00;38;50;19 - 00;38;52;16
Cullen
So tangible right there with you.
00;38;52;20 - 00;38;55;09
Clark
But it's like you really know this has happened. Yeah.
00;38;55;12 - 00;38;57;05
Cullen
Did you feel your people.
00;38;57;22 - 00;39;22;00
Clark
You know, they're moving at speed. These are real people. They are actually performing these stunts. This is really happening. And there is just something now we can go into this know later when he touches when Herzog kind of talks about this more and other lessons. But I think there is a very significant real impact. And I think that there is definitely something there.
00;39;22;18 - 00;39;41;09
Clark
The difference between being able to believe your eyes and really and not and not being able to believe your eyes. Right. It's like to take it back to this magic analogy, right? It's like if you've got a magician performing tricks in front of you and you're just like, I can see the trick. I know what you're doing. You're completely removed.
00;39;41;09 - 00;39;54;23
Clark
There's like, no immersion, you know? Right. I mean, that's kind of the point. If you already know how the tricks done or used or they are not good magicians and you can see how the trick is being done. It's not really magic, is it? It's not very entertaining.
00;39;54;29 - 00;39;59;29
Cullen
It's like, say, the Illusion show, which is it's not really all right.
00;40;00;14 - 00;40;18;24
Clark
But if the magician is extraordinary and you're sitting there in front of them and yes, you know, it's magic, like, you know that it's not they're not actually really manipulate in time and space and breaking the laws of physics, but you can't figure it out. It's like they're really doing it. The physicality of that is like, wow, whatever they're doing is so exceptional.
00;40;18;24 - 00;40;41;26
Clark
I cannot you know, this is like real. I don't know, you know, because obviously it's like, you know, it's a film, you know, this isn't really a post-apocalyptic world where there's no gasoline and people are, you know, killing each other over a drop of gas. You know, that's not real. But within that, what they're doing is real and visceral and physical and tangible.
00;40;41;26 - 00;40;50;09
Clark
So it's I think that's one of the things that really stands out for me for Herzog's films that that kind of draws me to them.
00;40;50;09 - 00;40;52;01
Cullen
But yeah, Oh, totally.
00;40;52;13 - 00;41;14;01
Clark
Yeah. So, you know, Herzog talks about this is kind of interesting, right? Because this could be pretty subjective. He talks about, you know, consuming good film, you know, And we just use kind of some examples here, right? I mean, your example of Herzog and Jaws, my example of George Miller and Mad Max. And, you know, what do you think good cinema is now?
00;41;14;01 - 00;41;23;27
Clark
It's totally subjective, of course. But, you know, Herzog is talking about exposing yourself to good cinema. Do you think what do you think that like what meaning do you think that has Is there any objective meaning to that?
00;41;24;09 - 00;41;39;15
Cullen
Just to not to to say that it's everything can be organized into those two meanings, but on one hand, it's something that is, you know, not utterly critically acclaimed but well-regarded, well-received, something like a godfather that is very clearly, you know, everyone kind of agrees.
00;41;39;15 - 00;41;40;18
Clark
It's like in the canon.
00;41;40;18 - 00;41;56;14
Cullen
Yeah, that's a good classic movie. And the other time would be I would say. So really, anything that you can learn from, you know, like I've had great experiences watching some movies that aren't necessarily the the best, like Ed Wood. I love Ed Wood. You know, a lot of his movies. Yeah.
00;41;56;17 - 00;41;57;23
Clark
I think. Oh, you know, but.
00;41;57;23 - 00;42;01;26
Cullen
I mean I mean even his is really. Yeah, not the timber. I do love the Tim Burton one.
00;42;02;12 - 00;42;06;23
Clark
Okay. Got you got some actual Atwood's actual films that he directed. Yeah. Yeah.
00;42;07;04 - 00;42;22;11
Cullen
And I find that those are so interesting is it's basically just watching this dude that has such a passion, but he's so misguided in so many ways, and you kind of learn, okay, what, you know, what could I have done differently? What could I, you know, and things like that, which I think is really, really valuable for.
00;42;22;11 - 00;42;45;11
Clark
So you can learn from films that aren't technically, I guess, great, right? I mean, yeah, I think that's an interesting point. I think you can. I think, yeah. So that would maybe be a little bit where we might differ from Herzog's comments here. But I agree. I mean, I think and I think good cinema exist everywhere. I think that good cinema can exist in a in a genre flick.
00;42;45;11 - 00;43;20;03
Clark
Good cinema can exist in a studio film. Good cinema can exist in any country, in any language and any era good is certainly subjective. But I think ultimately, you know What speaks to you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it's it. Yeah. But I think you're right, though. I mean, I think it's worth, you know, even if you have to kind of push yourself, you know, especially today, it's so easy to do so with, you know, all of these, you know, Netflix Hulu Criterion Collection is online, all of these different resources.
00;43;20;03 - 00;43;24;22
Clark
I think it is good to push yourself past maybe just what you've been watching. You know, you say.
00;43;24;23 - 00;43;36;06
Cullen
You weren't out real fast, too. I think that's the thing. When you just watch like a list, your list of just like, oh, I want to see this. I want to see this, you know? Yeah. Bring something different in the mix can be a really lovely surprise and really refreshing.
00;43;36;22 - 00;44;13;22
Clark
Try different genres. Try different areas. Try different countries. Try different. Yeah. At push yourself. I mean, and I have to do this a little bit, you know, it's like I think all of us or most of us probably kind of fall back into the things that are most that our comfort zone, so to speak, you know, like, well, I know that I love this genre or I know I love this director or I maybe don't like to read subtitles or whatever your thing is, you know, I think it's really a good thing to at least occasionally push yourself and and go watch some other films.
00;44;13;22 - 00;44;34;05
Clark
I think you can learn so much from watching some silent Era films, so you can learn so much from watching foreign language films. You can learn so much from watching them, so absolutely. Absolutely. I think we I think it's like watching with a conscious intent is is an important aspect.
00;44;34;08 - 00;45;00;25
Cullen
Another aspect to kind of talk a little bit about. But something else that Herzog says in his opening lesson is this universality, and it's this universal rules of film. And I think that watching films from different genres, watching films in different countries is a great way to introduce yourself into like, what are universal rules and what do they mean, what, you know, I can watch a movie in Japan and I can watch a movie in Made in Texas, and I can mute them both and I can still understand what's going on.
00;45;00;25 - 00;45;10;09
Cullen
If the filmmaker is visually minded and kind of is very visual storytelling and there's there's universal rules there that carry off internationally in any any movie.
00;45;10;10 - 00;45;29;06
Clark
And there's some that do and some that don't. Yeah, absolute. And I think that's a really good point. That's a really good point is to kind of see and that's, you know, watching films from different eras, everything from different, you know, the grammar or language of film has been solidified for the most part for quite a while. But there are definite differences.
00;45;29;06 - 00;45;53;28
Clark
And, you know, you go back in time and you see not only differences in acting style, but you see different philosophies of storytelling, you see different camera subjectivity, different editing and yeah, I think that's a good point to kind of compare different films from different countries, different languages, different areas, and kind of see what what is universal amongst these things and what.
00;45;53;28 - 00;45;55;02
Cullen
Yes, yeah, yeah.
00;45;55;02 - 00;46;13;11
Clark
So really good point. Yeah. And I think you mentioned that you can kind of watch and absorb through osmosis and you can also, you know, what I often do is I'll kind of my first, my first watch of a film will be like that. Exactly. I'm just an audience. I'm just hanging out here. I want to be entertained I want to get sucked into the film.
00;46;13;22 - 00;46;28;07
Clark
And if it's a film that stands out to me for whatever reason, then I think, you know, I go back and I watch it. Okay, let's I want to kind of break down here. Let's see what they're doing. You know, what what did they do that made me feel this way or what stood out to me, you know, and kind of just analyze it on a different level.
00;46;28;07 - 00;46;32;10
Clark
So you can always do that, too. You can enjoy a film on multiple levels and.
00;46;32;11 - 00;46;54;19
Cullen
Perhaps to kind of even if anything, kind of wrap up the all the conversation or all the topics we've had. I've actually heard people that I that I know went to film school whose teachers told them I always advise reading this script or the screenplay before you watch the movie, which is bizarre to me, which is completely the antithesis of anything you should be doing because you should be watching the movies is very rector's intended.
00;46;55;05 - 00;47;02;24
Cullen
And then if you want to do the research afterwards. But but you know, to give yourself a preconceived notion or to give yourself you know, this is.
00;47;02;24 - 00;47;03;24
Clark
Interesting that you.
00;47;03;24 - 00;47;06;07
Cullen
Figured, yeah, it's it's really and it's I've heard it from multiple.
00;47;06;08 - 00;47;06;20
Clark
People from.
00;47;06;21 - 00;47;13;12
Cullen
Capital different film schools and it's like why would why on earth I can't think of any positive.
00;47;13;12 - 00;47;28;21
Clark
Maybe so yeah, maybe somebody listening can kind of give us, you know, shoot us an email and let us know why that is. I mean, I have often read a script after. Yeah, yeah, many, many, many, many times. I've read a script afterward, but I don't think I've ever read a script prior.
00;47;29;01 - 00;47;36;20
Cullen
Know. In fact, I would be actively avoiding doing so if I do. I saw a screenplay from a movie and I you know.
00;47;36;22 - 00;47;57;04
Clark
I remember when Hateful Eight script was leaked before the film came out, and I was like, Don't even get me close to that. Yeah, it's like the last thing. And I, when the world I want is to have the film ruined for me because I've read the script beforehand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, cool. Well, did we where did we miss anything else that.
00;47;57;15 - 00;48;20;25
Clark
That Herzog covered there in those first couple lessons? I pretty much touched on almost everything, man. Yeah, it is. And I just want to go back quickly because he uses a specific example. I think is like is really helpful. It's funny, he kind of is not making fun of but kind of calling out. It's like, you know, I, I talked to a lot of film students and he's like, they think film history started at Star Wars.
00;48;20;26 - 00;48;22;12
Clark
You know, what is that? 77?
00;48;22;21 - 00;48;23;27
Cullen
Is that 77 star?
00;48;23;29 - 00;48;43;24
Clark
Yeah. And it's so amazing to me to say, I mean, first of all, I'm old, so star Wars is within my lifetime, just barely. But so it's hysterical to think that people, you know, kind of have that might have this thought that film history started in 77. But but, you know, I guess I guess it's possible. I mean.
00;48;43;24 - 00;48;59;21
Cullen
That's the irony there is that film is very old but also very new, which is kind of an it's an interesting art for that reason that you can literally go back to, you know, a Western made in 1902 was technically a contemporary movie then. It wasn't set in the Old West. It was set in present day for them.
00;49;00;04 - 00;49;15;27
Cullen
I always talk about why the Western to me is such an interesting genre to go through, because you literally essentially go through modern entire iterations of life in the West that are being recorded in real time. And then you get up to this, this romanticized vision of the frontier and all that. Yeah, that's another conversation for some time.
00;49;16;13 - 00;49;36;07
Clark
But you're right. I mean, I think in an overall perspective film is a pretty young art form. Yes. And you compare it to music and painting, sculpture, writing. Of course, those art forms have been have been around for much, much, much, much longer than moving pictures.
00;49;36;07 - 00;49;48;07
Cullen
And if anything, that's why you should try to expose yourself to all of it, because it's not really that difficult to do. Yes, that's possible. Yeah, it's not hard to really go back in time and examine older movies. There's not, you know, absolutely not that long.
00;49;49;00 - 00;50;08;18
Clark
Yeah. All right. Well, I think we've just about covered most of the major topics that Herzog himself covered in these first couple lessons of master class. So we will go ahead and wrap it up now and we'll cover the next couple lessons and our next episode. But Collin, I want to thank you so much for joining me today.
00;50;08;18 - 00;50;24;03
Clark
I had a blast and I'm looking forward I'm looking forward to our future episodes and I'm excited to see what kind of feedback we get from this. And I hope you listening out there enjoyed it and we'll look forward to hanging out with you next time then.
00;50;24;09 - 00;50;24;27
Cullen
Now see you guys.
00;50;24;27 - 00;50;27;06
Clark
All right. Until then, signing off.