Clark
Hey, everybody. I am Clark Coffey. And with me here is Cullen McFater and this is Soldiers of Cinema Podcast, where we explore the works and philosophy of legendary filmmaker Werner Herzog. What's up, Cullen?
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Cullen
Not much. I'm happy to be here. Happy to be back. It's a lot of fun.
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Clark
I'm glad you're happy because, man, it would be weird if we were doing this and you were like, really unhappy to be here.
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Cullen
Like, you were really no interest.
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Clark
Like, I don't even know. Why am I here? This sucks. I hate that.
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Cullen
A big gallon of whiskey beside me and I've got to get through it.
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Clark
Well, maybe that's a good idea. Maybe one of these days we can do an episode that's kind of like a drinking game in it, and we can, you.
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Cullen
Know, it'll be our walking arc. Watchable commentary.
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Clark
Yeah, actually. Hey, there you go. One of them will do, like, some commentaries when we finally get through the masterclass lessons and we get into Herzog's films. Yeah, maybe we can make a drinking game out of it at some point. All right. But anyway, well, I'm glad you're happy to be here. I'm happy to be here, too. And for those of you listening, I hope that you're happy as well.
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Clark
I hope it's all just one big love fest. So on today's episode, so last episode, we went through and discussed lessons one and two in Herzog's Masterclass. And this this episode here we're going to go through lessons three and possibly four. We're going to have to see how much time it takes to get through Lesson three. But that's where we're going to start today.
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Clark
So we'll just dive right in. So at less than three, Herzog comes right out of the gate with read, read, read, read, read. Do you like reading Cullen? Can you read?
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Cullen
Do you? I mean, sometimes I question that. Sometimes I. I know many people who say No, no, I do enjoy reading. I actually weirdly enough, though, I read probably more nonfiction than I do read.
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Clark
Fiction about that.
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Cullen
Yeah, I find that that's kind of what draws my my mind, which is odd because, you know, when it comes to film, I, I much prefer to create in a fictional setting as opposed to, you know, I love doing documentary, but but my.
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Clark
Preferred art.
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Cullen
Certainly lies in narrative. Yeah.
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Clark
Well, I mean, so, so definitely in listening to Herzog, I think he makes it pretty clear that, you know, in his opinion, reading is vital.
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Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
To becoming the best filmmaker that you can be. And, and, and I think Herzog, when he talks about reading, he talks about reading some pretty, you know, in his words, high caliber stuff. And he has a couple of example examples that he mentions in in the lesson the poetic Edda, which I do have to admit I have not yet read.
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Clark
And then he mentions the peregrine, which I have read and can speak to in a few minutes. But I mean, so let's just start off with that, that basic first premise. I mean, do you agree with Herzog? Do you think that reading is vital to being a good filmmaker? What are your thoughts?
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Cullen
Yeah, I do. I do think that there is something stimulating about, you know, um, while novels and literature aren't necessarily inherently visual mediums, I would say most people that read visualize when they read, and I think that's ever the more important as somebody who works in a visual medium like film being able to visualize and being able to, you know, even come up with specific shots on, you know, that's what I find when I read.
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Cullen
Sometimes I'm like, How would I shoot this? Like, how would you know? What would what would the the shot look like for this, this instance or this idea? How can you capture that in a visual medium? And so I think that just that that exercise of allowing your brain to come up with a visuals that are stimulated by, you know, either somebody else's work or even if it's something that's a thousand years old, you know, that I think is is inherently inherently helpful and valuable to anybody who wants to be a director or even, you know, be a screenwriter or a cinematographer.
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Cullen
I think that it it all kind of plays into it. And I think that, yeah, reading is kind of like exercise for the brain, I find for sure.
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Clark
I think I would even go a little bit further. I think you're kind of talking about it in a bit of a practical sense where it where it's, you know, exercising your imagination and visualizing, you know, how to tell stories, visual manner. You know, I would I would go further and say, I mean, why and how to articulate this.
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Clark
I mean, I think reading is just it does so many things for you. And, you know, especially, you know, Herzog's examples are one of his examples, I think is only maybe 50, 60 years old or so. It's not that old. The peregrine and then yes, get to is much older and I'm not sure how much older, but I think it's maybe a couple of thousand years old and probably off by several hundred years.
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Clark
But it's older. But, you know, sometimes it might be a little bit harder to pick up some of these older writings. But, you know, I think, you know, often there's a reason why they've stood the test of time. It's because they're pretty substantial works. But I think it's also it's worthwhile kind of you know, we talked last episode about watching films from different eras and from different geographies, from different people.
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Clark
And I think that's that applies with reading as well. You know, to if you love comic books, that's great. But you know, maybe expand your reading vocabulary and break out some of the classics. But yeah, I mean, I think reading.
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Cullen
To me, it's always about challenging to write. Sure. And I think it's interesting that you mentioned something like graphic novels or comic books or even, you know, audiobooks. Um, audiobooks have blown up in the past few years, but I always find that, you know, that even then it's more of a passive experience. You're being read a story, whereas even if you don't love sitting down and reading a book, a lot of the time, that's it.
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Cullen
It is. Again, like I kind of said earlier, it's like it's like working out. It's like, you know, you're sitting there to work out the muscles that you might not always work out.
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Clark
Well, and I think in a couple of different ways. So that's a great point. And I'll add to that by saying that, you know, some of the muscles that you're working out, I think in a practical sense, your attention span and I think in today's day and age with the Internet and, you know, 140 characters or a quick Wikipedia page read or, you know, a quick five minute article on whatever your favorite site is, you know, everything is chopped into such small bite sized pieces today.
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Clark
And I think if you if you do not get yourself inside a book on a regular basis, your attention span will start to shrink. And I've noticed that in myself. And as scary as like, oh my gosh, what's going on here? It's like you can't focus for more than a couple of pages. Holy crap. You know.
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Cullen
And even beyond traditional literature, too, I think that like even reading documents, whether it's historical documents, like I would consider the poetic Edda almost more of a historical document than of course it's it's an artistic, you know. Yeah. A poetry kind of right almost to the word extravaganza. But even something like I read like I remember a few years ago, I just sat down one day and read the entire FBI file on the Zodiac Killer.
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Cullen
Like at the end, it was like 300 pages, and I just went through the whole thing.
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Clark
Doesn't Herzog bring up like, does I think he requests, like, urgent request, but, I mean, he suggest you should read the Warren Commission report. Right? And the assassination of JFK. I think that's in the assignment.
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Cullen
Yes.
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Clark
Yes, of course. Along with this class. But so. So there you go. And we can kind of talk about I don't know exactly what Herzog had in mind as to why you should read it. But, you know, especially when he talks about how, you know, facts don't make truth, but then he goes and assigns this reading of what is, for the most part, just an aggregation of facts that Warren report.
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Clark
But it's interesting. But but yeah so attention span. But then I was also going to say and probably more important, although obviously having an attention span is it's important to be able to hold long, complex stories in your mind and imagination. But your empathetic muscle is what I think is the ultimate muscle that reading exercises and certainly, of course, film and music and other art mediums can can activate your empathetic muscles.
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Clark
But I think that reading good literature is a unique combination of, you know, of challenge, imagination and, you know, really, really working that into those empathetic muscles over a long period of time. You know, where there's a story in a film maybe be an hour and a half, 2 hours, you know, a television show might be 45 minutes to an hour.
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Clark
You know, song may be five, 7 minutes. I mean, you know, holding this long, complex narrative in your imagination and really empathizing in nuanced, complex ways with these characters and situations and worlds that you may never experience in your regular life. I mean, over over hours and hours and hours. You know, I think what that can do for you as an artist and just as a human being can't be replaced by by anything else.
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Clark
So, yeah, I mean, I guess we both agree it sounds like we both agree. And I don't know for everybody out there, I'd be interested, you know, how much how much reading you do as a filmmaker. And yeah, is it, is it something that you really carve out time for and do it conscientiously? I nor do.
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Cullen
You disagree that maybe may maybe some people think that it's.
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Clark
Not necessary.
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Cullen
Right?
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Clark
It might be so yeah I think it will get some people shooting some emails and let us know. But I mean, it's interesting to see, you know, as Herzog describes his experience being able to hold some of the it sounds like some original manuscript on parchment of the poetic edit in his hands and what kind of gravitas that kind of held for him is very interesting.
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Clark
I think it just illustrates how, you know, the significance of the of being close to this. I don't even I mean, how would you even describe it?
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Cullen
I almost take it as for him, it's like it's like being able to touch another world of artists from 1100 years ago, right?
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Clark
Absolutely.
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Cullen
Of of like realizing this this human connection on a very basis of just creation and, you know, creation of art and creation of of you know, what's funny to me about a lot of classical art, you know, not not contemporary. And, I mean, you know, dating back thousands of years is that there is always been this sale of ideas.
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Cullen
And maybe even if it's not for specifically, you know, literal money, there's this sale of you have people consuming something that somebody else has created just from their brain. And I think if anything, I think that might be we might take on on where Herzog kind of really connects with these like these old documents is the fact that he he's there now.
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Cullen
You know, he's he's doing that now. We're all doing that now. We're kind of living out this this age old tradition of of civilization.
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Clark
Yeah, Well, and I think it's interesting to his case, the forgotten dreams, I think, is it kind of shares or kind of illustrates maybe it's a really interesting.
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Cullen
Movie as.
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Clark
Well. It's a very beautiful movie and illustrates kind of that, you know, Herzog's desire to kind of reach through the ages.
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Cullen
Yes.
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Clark
And and and and touch these ancient civilization. And it's like you kind of said, yeah, it's very interesting. And there is a very profound sense to that. If you've ever been to an ancient, you know, some kind of ancient place in the world, you know, it's like we went to my wife and I visited a Skellig Michael of off of the coast in Ireland, and it's one of the most ancient still standing.
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Clark
I don't know what you would call it. There's like, these stone huts. There was like a group of monks lived on this tiny island, and it's one of the oldest known, you know, a manmade structure is still left in the world. And it's like older than the pyramids. And there really definitely is a a powerful, powerful sense that you get me in there.
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Cullen
I can even remember when I was in Rome, there is a church, a church that I think was built in the 15th century that was built on top of a pagan church that was built probably in the three hundreds that was then built on top of like a nomadic village. And so you enter this church in Rome, you go down these steps probably you're probably, you know, 200 feet underground at this point at the bottom.
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Cullen
And you're walking through these caves where these nomads used to live back, you know, thousands of years ago. And you see these drawings on the wall and things like that. And I think one of the you know, it's funny that you mentioned cave forgotten dreams, because I think one of the really interesting parts where Herzog, in his narration about movies, where he he says, you know, perhaps the people who painted these walls would have been filmmakers today.
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Cullen
Yeah. Would have been, you know, you know, it's there's such a through line of of artistry.
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Clark
Yeah. It's just and it's just I think it's one of the just this, this this thread throughout all of human history of our need for story is just yeah I think it's there's very fundamental connective thread that kind of runs through all of humanity, across culture, across geography and across time. So and that's that's really powerful. It's almost kind of sort of trying to glimpse and touch like a little piece of like pure distilled humanity, you know?
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Clark
So I particularly kind of enjoyed his description of that in the lesson. And I think it's, you know, you can do a little bit of that. You can replicate that, a little bit of that by reading really good literature, literature that's stood the test of time. And you don't have to go necessarily, you know, halfway across the world or to the North Pole or to Rome, although these things are wonderful and you should travel as much as possible.
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Clark
But yeah, I mean, you know, grab yourself a book at the library or, you know, buy one at the store or download a file to your Kindle or whatever you like to do. But, but yeah, it's, it's pretty extraordinary the power of story. And that's probably why all of us are here, because we all agree. So let's then move into then a little bit of it's funny.
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Clark
So Herzog kind of makes a bit of a little, you know, a little transition here at this point. He talks start talking about editing, and it talks about how you can learn from reading literature a little bit about what good editing is. You want to talk about that a little bit.
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Cullen
Yeah. So I think, you know, Herzog's example, the kind of example that he gives in the lesson is about, you know, when you see someone walking into a room or walking upstairs, you don't have to show all the busywork you can, you know, cut from somebody entering a home to their bedroom and you fill in the blanks. And I think the relation there, at least to me, is in the idea that, you know, when you're reading a book, you are reading between the lines of what the author is telling you.
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Cullen
You're you know, if there is an inference and it's very similar in editing where it's you're not showing every single literal step of the way of this story, there is inference of even if it's as simple as you see someone getting into a car and then you see them getting out of a car elsewhere, you've inferred that they are driving or have driven to that location.
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Cullen
And I think that there's kind of this, you know, if anything, there is almost a subconscious begging of the audience to use their imagination to infer. And there's much bigger examples of that. Of course, there's there's movies that their entire stories are based on inference and based around, you know, interpretation. And the answers aren't given nearly as clearly as other films, but.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
And I think you know.
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Clark
Is of course there's yeah, because of the film and certainly from piece of literature to piece to literature. I mean here you kind of, you know, he's jumping off from discussing the poetic Edda, which is, you know, a very condensed type of storytelling. It's, you know, if you've taken a look at it, I mean, it's it's, it's a poem basically, in effect.
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Clark
And it's form is very symbolic and it very condensed. And so he's kind of, you know, drawing this analogy of, you know, of editing a film in that manner, That film should be story condensed.
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Cullen
Yes.
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Clark
Yeah. And obviously there's like a lot of literature that's very expanded, you know, that's not condensed, but just and specifically, you know, he had just come off of talking about the poetic Edda And yeah, I think you know in general so I've not read the poetic Edda I'm going to but I have it in pulp, but I have read a lot of poetry and, you know, I think good poetry is you could say you could define great poetry by kind of saying that its story condensed right?
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Clark
Each word is so is so chosen, you know, so perfectly chosen in place that there's so much meaning and story behind, you know, even just a line of a few words. I think that, you know.
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Cullen
You got haikus, right, Like haikus are literally five, seven, five. And it's it's it's.
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Clark
What is a haiku? How many is it? Like three.
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Cullen
So it's it's it's five syllables. Seven syllables and five and.
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Clark
But it's even a shorter one.
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Cullen
Which is there's, there's which.
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Clark
One is like three, five, three or something or five.
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Cullen
There's, there's really, there's a lot of like Irish ones which are similar to that. But you look at that and you go like jeez, there's but you can, you can evoke so much. Yeah. Something like that, you know, really can. That's what I mean when I say it's, it's about inference. It's about the audience or the reader. Yeah.
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Cullen
Being able to infer from those lines and being able to visualize or use their imagination beyond.
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Clark
So so yeah, I guess I would say, you know, not just reading is important. I would make even more explicit Herzog's call here that, yes, reading is vital, but you know, reading really good poetry, I think is could be extremely helpful. And that's probably something that a lot of filmmakers might not think about immediately. You know, you spend a lot of time studying, you know, technical aspects of filmmaking, how to use a camera, how to set up shots, how to light things, you know, even how to work with an actor or, you know, all these different things.
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Clark
And you may not read a lot of poetry, but I really would strongly suggest to grab some good poetry. And good is subjective, but I mean, try to find some things to speak to you, but good poetry, I think one of it's one of its many characteristics is that it is really compressed, efficient storytelling, which is vital, I think, for any good film.
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Clark
And I think you can learn a lot of I think.
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Cullen
What's other otherwise interesting about the books too, and to to kind of almost not be like really heady and you know, grand about this is, you know, you must do this to be a good filmmaker, right? Right. They're great resources to just get ideas from like this, really, even on the most basic level, just to read a book and record ideas out of, you know, that's oh, there's this line about this, this person here that that could actually make an entire movie.
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Cullen
And I've had experiences, I've sort of read something and gone, Jeez, that that would honestly be a really interesting story in its own just from, you know, a line or a paragraph of a book.
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Clark
That's a really good point, you know, and we hadn't even talked about that. But absolutely. I mean, you've got to fill the well in order to draw from it. And, you know, I mean, look, it's garbage in, garbage out. I think we talked about that last time, too. It's like, you know, fill yourself up with as good a stuff as you can.
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Clark
I mean, you know, literature and poetry stories that have stood the test of eons, you know, I mean, there's you know, if you spend your time filling yourself up with that stuff, it's likely that you're going to have better quality stories come out of you than if you spend all of your time watching reality television. I mean, I'll go out on a limb and make a really controversial statement here, but.
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Cullen
You know, Yeah, well, I'll give you.
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Clark
Maybe a place for reality TV.
00;20;42;13 - 00;20;45;00
Cullen
That loves how they talk.
00;20;45;00 - 00;21;04;22
Clark
It. Yeah. I mean, you know, he talks about pornography and how that kind of he uses that as an analogy. We can talk about that later about know it's a it's visceral and physical and real and how that's missing in modern film. I don't think he intended to be promoting pornography. You know, but he he was making an analogy.
00;21;04;22 - 00;21;36;07
Clark
But we can we could talk about that at another point. But but yeah so there's a place but I think it is important to to feel yourself up and you will find some I think some great ideas and it's just one it's something that could have been just a small tangent of, of something that you read a line in a poem or a certain something a character does or a certain, you know, something that was just a small part of what you were reading could just expand like a fractal into a whole new idea for you and send you off, you know, really inspiring you.
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Clark
So absolutely. So there you go. Read, reread, read.
00;21;41;01 - 00;21;42;16
Cullen
Reread, reread.
00;21;42;16 - 00;22;04;05
Clark
And really, I'm not even going to try to do my my Herzog impersonation here. Maybe someday, maybe someday we could work up to that. But people are probably expecting it. They're like, Come on, how can you have a Herzog partner or not and do the Herzog voice? Wow, Maybe that's just part of you know, we have to keep some mystery.
00;22;04;05 - 00;22;21;20
Clark
We have to keep coming back for more. So maybe we'll do that another time. But but let's also let's talk a little bit, too, about you know, so The Peregrine is a book that I did read and you did read. We read it when we took the class. Now it's been a bit, but I mean, Herzog really, really hammers on this one.
00;22;21;20 - 00;22;40;01
Clark
You know, he talks about like I mean, look, he's like, if you want if you want to be a good filmmaker, read the Peregrine. You have to read the Peregrine. It's hysterical. And I remember when, you know, you and I were some of the first people that took this class. And Herzog's masterclass was one of, I think, the first couple classes.
00;22;40;06 - 00;22;41;26
Cullen
That were like or it.
00;22;41;26 - 00;23;03;21
Clark
There were like four. And and a matter of fact, one of them is no longer even available unless you purchased it. When it was out, the Kevin Spacey Masterclass, which of course, you can no longer find and we all know why, which is interesting. That's a whole other interesting conversation. But but yeah, it was one of the first lessons.
00;23;04;08 - 00;23;21;19
Clark
Masterclass was a very young company and I remember like going on to Amazon to buy the Peregrine and it was like, you know, had gone from, you know, number 51,732 in sales to like five, you know. Yeah, yeah.
00;23;21;19 - 00;23;23;21
Cullen
Because it skyrocketed.
00;23;23;21 - 00;23;41;26
Clark
Skyrocketed because so many people were buying it. But, you know, I'm curious. I mean, what do you think it is about the peregrine that Herzog finds so important? Like, what do you think is motivating him so strongly to share that in your opinion? And what were your thoughts on it having read it?
00;23;42;02 - 00;24;16;02
Cullen
I mean, I think in a conversation we've had before, you kind of put it really well, which is that it is about the the writer becoming the subject rather than judging the subject. And I think that that, you know, kind of is very is a very apt way to put it. Is that I think that it is it is you know, there's so many points in that book where it's about feeling the wind through the you know, through your entire being and the reverberations of of, you know, speed through your your your essence and things like that.
00;24;16;02 - 00;24;21;28
Cullen
It's so evocative of the language of of how you feel, like you feel like a parent that is reading it.
00;24;21;28 - 00;24;24;10
Clark
Beautiful. Yeah, It really is a beautiful book.
00;24;24;18 - 00;24;57;24
Cullen
And but no, I think that that's really an even in the the idea that Herzog kind of mentions this idea of judgment and getting rid of judgment when you're presenting a subject, be it in documentary or be it in fiction work, and become that subject, even if the audience doesn't, even if you show up film where you were totally in on this main character or whatever, and the audience doesn't connect to them, your movie's likely going to be better off for it because you are going to have a point of view when you tell that story as opposed to just being observational.
00;24;58;12 - 00;25;02;15
Cullen
Well, you know, be the more in it. That's things that's the that's the his classic quote, Right.
00;25;02;28 - 00;25;22;28
Clark
Well there's so many yeah, there's so many different points. I mean I would just say just purely you know, if if anybody listening out there hasn't read the Peregrine, you're thinking about it, you know, maybe you've you either have or have not watched Herzog's Masterclass and maybe you've heard the book before, maybe you have it. I will just second Herzog's advice or suggestion.
00;25;22;28 - 00;25;45;25
Clark
And then, yes, I you should read it for if for no other reason than it really, really is an extraordinarily beautiful book. I, I mean, I you know, when I didn't I was like I had no idea what this book was. I'd never heard of it. I had no preconceived notion. I'm like, okay, it's about a bird whom Isaac Herzog says, to try it, I guess I will.
00;25;45;25 - 00;25;50;18
Clark
It's only a few bucks. But I was frankly blown away. I was extremely and it's.
00;25;50;18 - 00;25;51;24
Cullen
Not that much either. No.
00;25;51;25 - 00;26;21;02
Clark
So it's not that long. It's maybe a couple hundred pages. Just, you know, a couple afternoons. You can read it pretty quickly. But I was really surprised by how moved I was by that book. And I think for me, there was a couple you're right. You know, it's the the author is in such awe of the peregrine that he is observing over time that he does, in a way become the subject.
00;26;21;20 - 00;26;46;07
Clark
And his and again, I'll go back to using this word empathy. His level of empathetic ability is so strong that he becomes this animal and you really get a sense of that in in his description of it over time. And it's a it's a really excellent example of a handful of things that I just want to take a minute to discuss.
00;26;46;07 - 00;27;10;15
Clark
I mean, so it's an extraordinary example of condensed storytelling. I mean, it is it is very poetically written book. It's just on that level. It's it's amazing. But it's also an extraordinary example of empathy from a storyteller. And I remember, you know, when I first started to get into this world of filmmaking and storytelling, it was from the perspective of an actor.
00;27;10;15 - 00;27;35;24
Clark
I was pursuing acting, I was doing acting, studying, acting. And that was, you know, one of the first things that I learned. But it takes you know, it takes time to really master was to never sit in judgment of your character, right? If you're in judgment of your character, then you can't be the character. And and so I think whether you're a writer or an actor or a director, this is a really key point.
00;27;35;24 - 00;28;07;12
Clark
I don't you know, you really can't overemphasize this. If you are sitting in judgment of your character or of this character, if you're an actor of the character you're playing, if you're the director of the characters in your story, if it's a documentary, if you're sitting in judgment of the people that you're talking to, like you and I, when we worked on this, you know, that documentary that we're in the middle of about conspiracy theories, and we were interviewing people who had it to us pretty far out conspiracy theories that they really believed.
00;28;07;25 - 00;28;22;23
Clark
I mean, it's very tempting. It's very tempting to sit there in judgment of them. But you really have to work to suspend that and to empathize with them and kind of try to become one with them in a sense. Yeah.
00;28;22;23 - 00;28;51;28
Cullen
And just to understand, you know, I think that even beyond just simply character as well, you know, any successful artist should understand the ins and outs entirely of their story and should be able to empathize on a grander scale with that story itself. And to the story that they're telling. And you can really tell sometimes when a director doesn't necessarily understand the material that even sometimes they wrote themselves or or.
00;28;51;28 - 00;29;09;26
Clark
Even for, I mean, first rate, it's further than understanding. It's yeah, definitely it's it's one thing to understand but to to own write to feel in your heart to instead of saying you know it's like again I'll kind of go back to if you're an actor and you're playing a character that does bad things, right? I don't know.
00;29;09;26 - 00;29;32;15
Clark
You know, he's a serial killer or she's, you know, whatever horrible character. If you're sitting there and you're saying, gosh, this person is a bad person, they do bad things. I don't think that way. I wouldn't do that. Well, then boom, right. They're like, How are you going to inhabit this person? Yeah, Yeah. And it's and we can really I mean, we could really expand on this and you could talk about this hour long time.
00;29;32;15 - 00;29;58;25
Clark
But I feel that it is so fundamentally vital for any artist in any medium to constantly be expanding and working and exercising your empathetic muscles, because that really is the heart of what you're here to do as an artist. Yes, It's not about how you put paint on a canvas or how you chip away at the stone in a statue, or how you light a scene or write a story.
00;29;59;04 - 00;30;25;16
Clark
I really feel that when you distill it all down to its most central essence, it's about how you empathize. And we can really I mean, obviously that could be we can really go off on that one. But I think to bring it back to the peregrine into the lesson here, that that's a really great example and it's also a good example of something else, which is so many different topics that we're going to get to talk about in greater length as we go through this.
00;30;25;26 - 00;30;54;25
Clark
But it's a great example of, in my opinion. Now, Herzog doesn't talk about this or anything, but I do feel like it is indirectly important, and I think that Herzog shows this in his work as well. So. Herzog I personally find that none of his films are propaganda ish or even didactic, right? No. And the Peregrine is an extraordinary example of a film that is not propaganda.
00;30;55;07 - 00;31;07;19
Clark
It is not even didactic. It's not telling you how to think. It's not telling you what what to do. But actually, this book is a really extraordinary pro conservation book.
00;31;08;03 - 00;31;14;29
Cullen
MM hmm. And what's and I think, you know, in line with what you're saying is it allows you to get there to that conclusion on your own.
00;31;15;15 - 00;31;16;24
Clark
Through esthetic or.
00;31;17;01 - 00;31;18;07
Cullen
Exactly exactly.
00;31;18;07 - 00;31;43;04
Clark
Static or and that is so key filmmakers out there, you know, aspiring filmmakers out there, writers out there, please, please, please. It's you know, I play how to say this. I mean, of course, we all have our ideals and we have our you know, what we feel is right and wrong in the world, the things that we're passionate about.
00;31;43;21 - 00;32;02;10
Clark
But when you sit down to create a work in this case a film, and it's this is strange and it's so hard to kind of to speak directly to this, but, you know, if you sit down and you write a script, you're like, okay, I want to I want to tell people that saying X, Y, Z is bad, okay?
00;32;02;10 - 00;32;28;08
Clark
And I'm going to craft a story around how I can express that saying X, Y, Z is bad and we shouldn't do it or we shouldn't think it. I feel like almost inevitably that turns out crappy. I just really do because I feel like you're putting your ideals ahead of the esthetic and that esthetic, or it's just stripped out of your art.
00;32;28;08 - 00;32;39;07
Clark
And and because I watch films where the ideals that are represented in the films are totally in line with my thoughts, even like, I'm like, I agree, I agree. That's bad. But this is a horrible film.
00;32;40;14 - 00;32;41;23
Cullen
But yeah, but this.
00;32;41;23 - 00;32;58;01
Clark
Is such a great example. This book is such a great example of using esthetic or to bring people to an understanding of your ideals. And actually, did you feel that to film that book?
00;32;58;01 - 00;33;17;10
Cullen
Without a doubt, Yeah. Yeah. I think that it was, you know, even just to reiterate the word empathy is through empathy. You are somehow brought on the side of yes, the author and their take away without the author explicitly having to sit you down and say, this is what I believe and this is what you should believe, too.
00;33;17;13 - 00;33;21;23
Clark
Yeah. And it was just it just it kind of just like emanated great.
00;33;21;27 - 00;33;49;04
Cullen
It's a really great life emotion, I think. Because because what I think that says to a lot of people is that when you disagree with someone in in life, that oftentimes a better way to reach an understanding with that person isn't necessarily to throw facts at them or to throw statistics at them. For sure. It is to allow them to empathize with with situations going on that it's very you know, it's that's super, super relevant, especially in today's climate.
00;33;49;09 - 00;33;53;12
Cullen
Yes. Where, you know, rather than just yelling at people and throwing or.
00;33;53;13 - 00;33;56;22
Clark
Which we have a lot of in today's day and age. Boy, don't we ever.
00;33;57;06 - 00;34;06;24
Cullen
You know, just allow people to get to those conclusions on their own and they will often now hold those views deeper than if you had just simply told them in the first place. Right.
00;34;07;06 - 00;34;28;12
Clark
Well, and I want to I'll even add to that, too, a little bit just from my personal experience. So I grew up in the Midwest. I grew up outside of Saint Louis, Missouri, in the suburbs of Saint Louis and pretty far out from Saint Louis. So I lived in, you know, it's place called Saint Charles. And at the time it was I mean, we had like a gas station.
00;34;28;12 - 00;34;48;02
Clark
And, you know, the high school that I went to was like out in the Bush wildlife, like the Anheuser-Busch family. It's like big preserve and whatever reserve. And it was like out in the middle of nowhere, right? I mean, just happened to be across the street from a Superfund radioactive site. But that's all.
00;34;48;29 - 00;34;49;07
Cullen
So.
00;34;49;23 - 00;35;26;04
Clark
So close sometimes at night. No, but but I lived out in the middle of nowhere in this small town in the Midwest, and I lived in a at least for we lived closer to the city. So I was exposed to diversity and different peoples and things. But but when I went, you know, for junior high on, we lived in a very homogenous place demographically and and not just demographically, but religious, you know, like politically religious, philosophically, a very, very homogenous conservative place.
00;35;26;25 - 00;35;49;21
Clark
And I'll tell you, you know, as a younger kid watching films like like a great example, I'll just point out was Gus Van Sant's My own Private Idaho, watching that film. And, you know, back then it was like, it's not like I picked this film, you know, because you couldn't do that. Back then. I was just like up at night watching movies, which I loved to do.
00;35;49;22 - 00;36;11;26
Clark
You know, my parents had gone to bed and I would creep back up into the living room and I'd put on this big, like air traffic controller headphones they had way back in the early eighties because I'm old and and I would put like, thankfully we had like HBO or whatever. So I'm, you know, get to finally control that one TV we had in the house and and and watch something that I wanted to watch.
00;36;11;26 - 00;36;32;27
Clark
But you know I just had to watch what was on. And I remember so specifically my own Private Idaho comes on. And, you know, I had been taught through my you know, just through my religious education, which my parents, you know, kind of had me go through as that was something they believed in. And of course, they exposed me to that.
00;36;32;27 - 00;37;17;12
Clark
But I you know, it was a way to expose me to different people with different lifestyles, with different backgrounds and histories, and in a way that wasn't painting them as some fake perfect people or some you know, they were real people with problems and challenges and whatever else, right? It wasn't like they were. But but just like going through these this journey with them, these stories and kind of getting to become them, as I watched the film had such a profound impact on expanding my, my like experience with other people in other lifestyles and other religions and philosophies and beliefs.
00;37;17;12 - 00;37;31;18
Clark
And so I just I cannot overstate how important that was for me, especially when I didn't have any other like role models or examples of that in my life at the time. Do you know what I mean?
00;37;31;22 - 00;37;35;13
Cullen
Yeah. No, it's it's a and an interesting connection.
00;37;35;16 - 00;38;01;18
Clark
And so, yeah, I feel like the peregrine, although it's about a bird. Yes. Is such a great example of that. And I think that's what Herzog is speaking to here in his own way, not try to speak for him. But that's my interpretation of what he's, you know, talking about that the absolute vital aspect of of of enlarging your empathetic heart as much as possible.
00;38;01;22 - 00;38;03;13
Cullen
Yeah.
00;38;03;13 - 00;38;09;26
Clark
So. All right. Anyway, there's my there's my story, But boy, we've got off on you. But.
00;38;10;13 - 00;38;34;22
Cullen
But I think. I think, you know, even just to add on to that real quick. Yeah. What's interesting to me about that story, though, is is like I've had similar experiences that probably the most recent one, which to me took me, you know, majorly by surprise was because I wasn't young. It wasn't by any means the first movie ever seen or the first type of movie I'd ever seen that kind of approach this way.
00;38;35;03 - 00;38;41;02
Cullen
But I don't know if you saw Greta Gerwig's Lady Bird, which was 2017 or 2018.
00;38;41;02 - 00;38;43;21
Clark
You know, I actually have not yet.
00;38;43;28 - 00;38;44;25
Cullen
And I just but.
00;38;44;25 - 00;38;47;05
Clark
I just but I haven't seen it, unfortunately.
00;38;47;05 - 00;39;16;10
Cullen
For some reason. And it's like it's literally a movie about about, you know, a girl in Sacramento, California, who's trying to get into college. And and so really on a basic, basic level, no similarities with my life. Yeah. You know, and I but I remember watching it, and for some reason I almost it was like because of those differences, I was able to empathize so much with the character and so much with the movie.
00;39;16;10 - 00;39;29;16
Cullen
And it it hit me in this really weird way as I was it where I was like, it's just like, you know, I without trying to sound melodramatic, like I feel this movie, I just I know exactly what it's like. Yeah.
00;39;29;16 - 00;40;00;29
Clark
And it's, it's, you know, in a it's tough because, I mean, we talk, you know, not to try to take this to a political place. I don't want to do that, but I but I will say that I think that so much of where we are today is, is coming from with so much division. Yes. Yeah. I think really, you know, this is an opportunity for us as artists to try to bring as much empathy as we can to the.
00;40;00;29 - 00;40;38;20
Clark
So yeah, it's an opportunity for you fellow filmmakers out there. That's why we're here. So. All right. So yeah, if you can't tell, we like the Peregrine, we agree with Herzog, we think it's a good read and we highly recommend you check it out and let us know what you think of it. All right. So and this so it's funny, Herzog, who I think is actually hysterical and it really cracks me up that he claims to not have a sense of humor, which, of course, is just yet more hilarity from Herzog because he's more self-contradiction.
00;40;38;20 - 00;40;41;09
Clark
He is so funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course. Yeah.
00;40;41;19 - 00;40;42;25
Cullen
Which I think is his big joke.
00;40;43;02 - 00;41;21;24
Clark
He is so full of contradiction, which is just so awesome. I love it about him, but. But you know, he he's hysterical. He tells a story here at the end of this lesson three about encounters at the end of the world, which is which is a great flick if you've not seen it. And he's discussing his voiceover and he's talking about kind of finding his own voice and and he tells this hysterical story about how he was inspired by Unsolved Mysteries of all Things, which I just would have never guessed in a million years that that would be something that A he would be watching, be that he would be inspired by.
00;41;22;05 - 00;41;30;20
Clark
But that is hysterical. And you can really hear it. You know, he uses the specific example of that narration where the part where the poor penguin.
00;41;31;00 - 00;41;32;05
Cullen
Is going off towards the end.
00;41;32;05 - 00;41;36;26
Clark
Going off to die into the mountains all alone. And oh my gosh, that kills me.
00;41;36;27 - 00;41;51;14
Cullen
And I think it's funny too, because you think of Herzog like when he starts talking about this, this example where he says, you know, finding your voice and you think of like always talking about, you know, a figurative, you know, finding your voice. But he's he's know, he's literally talking about what was his timber going to be. Right.
00;41;51;21 - 00;42;02;21
Clark
It's like and I have to admit, you know, I have not yet done a narration myself, like documentary narration, and I'm a little scared of it.
00;42;03;00 - 00;42;05;07
Cullen
I that's what's funny, is that I did one.
00;42;05;12 - 00;42;05;21
Clark
Yeah.
00;42;05;21 - 00;42;38;22
Cullen
For the documentary that I've got coming out right now. It's just being scored right now. But what's hilarious is I remember doing this documentary and doing my narration for it and what, what was I doing? But imitating Herzog. And I remember thinking at the time I was doing it, going like this, or subconsciously and not not that I was I was I wasn't doing an accent by any means, but I was sitting there and I was like, I remember I did a first passed the narration and I just thought it was a far too quick and it was just there was no weight to the words.
00;42;38;22 - 00;42;55;12
Cullen
And so then I sort of went back and did the narration in his voice with the accent kind of going, you know, we are at the edge of the world, you know, finding things like that. And then I just kind of took the voice out and went instead to to saying like, you know, we're at the edge of the world.
00;42;55;12 - 00;43;11;12
Cullen
And using his diction and kind of the places. But I remember feeling kind of cheap about that and going, yeah, you know, I'm just ripping the guy off because he sees, you know, a master. NARRATOR. Sure. And then finding out that he had ripped off unsolved mysteries, kind of. Did it make you feel? Took that weight off my shoulders.
00;43;11;15 - 00;43;16;08
Cullen
I was like, oh, yeah. Even the even the greats, you know? Sure. Understand that nothing is wholly original, that.
00;43;16;26 - 00;43;41;07
Clark
Isn't that the age old, right? Like expert steel, you know, I mean, or professional steel, whatever. You know, I think you for sure. You know, it is interesting. We can speak a little bit too, because I think there is he does kind of speak a little bit too to that that metaphorical voice. Right. Your inner voice, your your opinions, your angle, your perspective.
00;43;41;07 - 00;43;58;22
Clark
Right. You know, I think he does kind of suggest that, you know, there is and he's talked about this in other places, too, which is why I can kind of you know, you can kind of sussed that out a little bit more from this very brief discussion. A couple of just a couple sentences here at the end of this lesson.
00;43;58;22 - 00;44;19;17
Clark
But he talks about this in greater length in other interviews and in some of his books about, you know, a lot of people are so consumed and worried about finding their authentic voice. And, you know, I need to use film to to figure myself out is almost like a therapy to find out who am I and where am I coming from.
00;44;19;17 - 00;44;37;13
Clark
And, you know, I'm sure that you've heard a lot of this and maybe you've even, you know, come from that angle. I know I have. I know that I definitely have. I think Herzog kind of pooh pooh is that a little bit, you know, And he's like, no, you don't need to do any of that. I'm exploring the story.
00;44;37;13 - 00;44;38;17
Cullen
Yeah, this is.
00;44;38;18 - 00;45;02;13
Clark
Great yourself and use the film as a way to explore your inner child And, you know, it's definitely not his style. It's definitely not Herzog style. But again, though, it's interesting and he is certainly full of contradictions because, of course, I think he actually does do that in his films to some extent. I think that I think he does.
00;45;02;25 - 00;45;28;21
Clark
But that doesn't mean that his comment doesn't hold some validity at all. I think that, you know, in all of the ways that you kind of hear about how Herzog works or whether it, you know, the sense of urgency that he creates for himself, the fury that he works himself into when he writes the the physicality of his shooting, the lack of storyboards and, you know, all of these type of things.
00;45;28;21 - 00;45;55;17
Clark
I mean, I think he's constantly trying to keep himself in a zone where he is not absorbed by a looking in. Right. Yes. An absorption of like self awareness or, you know, and I would agree. I mean, that, you know, when you're when you're in a state of flow and you're not thinking about yourself, I think that's when I do the best work, whenever I'm kind of self-conscious and I'm, you know, what's my voice here and what am I trying to say?
00;45;55;23 - 00;46;08;09
Clark
It usually doesn't come out very well, frankly, if I'm conscious about it. Right, If I if it's like a self-conscious way, I think there's no way for your authentic voice to not be there for me. Right?
00;46;08;28 - 00;46;14;00
Cullen
It's like everything that you do will have a personal touch on it. Absolutely.
00;46;14;00 - 00;46;51;08
Clark
Of course it will. And but I think it is easy to get caught up in that. I think I know I have. Boy, I definitely have. I mean, I can speak from such experience about, you know, I think, oh, jeez, what's my authentic voice? And, you know, I really have and it's kind of one of my personal challenges is to kind of drop that, let that go and just have faith and trust that whether it's in the writing process or whether it's, you know, as I write of shot list or I'm there on set, whether I'm an actor or I'm operating camera or I'm directing that, whatever I'm doing it, I just have faith that,
00;46;51;08 - 00;47;00;29
Clark
yes, like you're going to come through. So I don't know. Has that ever been something that's challenged you and your creative process? It certainly has me, I think.
00;47;01;01 - 00;47;19;24
Cullen
And I think it's something that I've learned to kind of not worry about, if that makes sense. Just to kind of understand that, you know, whatever voice I have will likely come through. Yeah. Again, as I said, naturally, just just every every every person has a fingerprint and an artistic fingerprint. And.
00;47;20;02 - 00;47;21;13
Clark
And yours is Canadian?
00;47;21;25 - 00;47;25;08
Cullen
Yes, exactly. Exactly. Just like my beer. It's just like.
00;47;27;07 - 00;47;36;00
Clark
I love it. I actually. I actually prefer the way you pronounce being read. But yeah, like I've been. I've been to the store.
00;47;36;08 - 00;47;37;04
Cullen
I've been to the store.
00;47;37;07 - 00;47;39;00
Clark
Which has been you say been.
00;47;39;09 - 00;47;50;21
Cullen
And it's something that some people do, some people don't. There's, there's a little bit of Yeah. Of local diction here if I Sure I think like if I'm, if I'm you know Yeah I would say I think I say been I think I said no.
00;47;50;29 - 00;47;55;09
Clark
Then I'm go back to the tapes I can go back to the tape and I you know that's.
00;47;55;09 - 00;47;57;06
Cullen
You're right, you're right actually I know.
00;47;57;16 - 00;48;13;02
Clark
I was just making this march up. Well, that's great, though. I mean an especially, you know, not to sound like an old fart like your dad, but at your age, I think that's awesome. I mean, I really do think that a lot of and we we will touch on more and more of these things as we go through more lessons.
00;48;13;02 - 00;48;28;08
Clark
You know, we've just covered three here and the next one we'll do for and we'll keep going. But I think so much of what Herzog does and I don't know if it's if it's really a conscientious kind of thing or if it's just he's intuited this. Right. And it's become a part of his process and he just intuited it.
00;48;28;08 - 00;48;56;29
Clark
But yeah, staying away from all of this over analytical, over processing, overthinking, which is what we're doing right here in this podcast. Now it's there's a little bit of irony there, but but you know, I think when he's in his creation mode, staying away from that I think is really vital. But what's interesting is that, you know, and you can see this so when he's working on a film, he's kind of moving away from this over analytical, self-conscious place.
00;48;56;29 - 00;49;23;09
Clark
But when he's but then he's got another mode and he actually spends quite a bit of time interpreting his own work, analyzing his own, you know, he says he doesn't, but look at all the interviews that he gives. Look at all the speaking engagements, where he goes through his films in great detail and discusses it with people. You know, he's like Herzog on Herzog and where he you know, there's just 500 pages of interviews.
00;49;23;09 - 00;49;36;14
Clark
I mean, he you can find more of Herzog talking about his films with other people and his philosophy of filmmaking than almost any other director I know. Yeah. Really? So I.
00;49;36;14 - 00;49;37;14
Cullen
Absolutely am. So.
00;49;37;14 - 00;49;55;26
Clark
So maybe that kind of shows that you can kind of there's a ying and a yang and you can you can have both. You can get into discussions and kind of intellectually or conceptually analyze these things. But then when you're creating, that's flip the switch. Let's turn that off and let's get you know.
00;49;56;23 - 00;50;12;11
Cullen
Let's just let's let's be in the moment. I mean, and it's the same kind of philosophy of like even on a set, a director that's not misguided with a director that is kind of all over the place, thinking of the next six shots in the movie and not just thinking about the one that they're on right now is often is that.
00;50;12;11 - 00;50;31;03
Clark
Can is present. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so it's interesting I do think a of it seems like as he describes it, a lot of his process is kind of is designed to kind of keep that let's keep the stay in this present moment stay right now and then when you remove all of this self-consciousness, that's actually when it's funny.
00;50;31;03 - 00;50;56;23
Clark
It's, you know, like a lot of things, there's kind of a the truth is kind of a paradox when you've stopped worrying about your authentic voice is when it arrives and moves through you. So. All right. Well, I think that's probably a good note to end this on, unless you've got anything less to add. Excellent. Well, I really enjoyed our conversation here on Herzog's masterclass.
00;50;56;23 - 00;51;10;07
Clark
Lesson three. I appreciate you hanging out with me. COHEN Thank you so much for that. And we'll look forward to lesson four next week. So thanks for listening, everybody. We will catch you on the flip side.
00;51;10;07 - 00;51;11;06
Cullen
Take care. Thanks, guys.
00;51;11;06 - 00;51;13;19
Clark
But right.