Cullen
Hello and welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. This is our third episode. I'm Cullen McFater and today I'm joined by my lovely co-host, Clark Coffey.
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Clark
Lovely. Oh, that's nice.
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Cullen
There you go.
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Clark
And I really appreciate that. That's awfully kind of you to say.
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Cullen
And so today we're going to be looking at lesson four of the Herzog Masterclass, which is primarily about writing a script and kind of Herzog's takeaways on, you know, the three act structure and things like that and his kind of criticisms of perhaps the way that people traditionally are taught to write scripts, but also some of his kind of stylistic differences, perhaps even between each of us, that maybe there's some points we disagree with or agree on.
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Clark
I'll tell you this. Just go so everybody knows COHEN so that, you know, I'm just going to lay it all on the line here. I'm just going to tell you that admit I'm admitting that this is the scariest part of filmmaking to me. Mm hmm. So. So this is going to be this is a topic that boy I need to think more about.
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Clark
Or maybe I need to think less about. Hmm.
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Cullen
But there's the real question.
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Clark
But, yeah, but this is. This is you know, this is probably this is the area in filmmaking where I feel like I am, you know, confronting that blank page is probably are we're actually without question, it's the most terrifying aspect of filmmaking to me. So it's kind of a personal challenge that I am that I'm still kind of working on.
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Clark
And I hear this from a lot of people, that it is one of the more challenging aspects of filmmaking. But yeah, so there's my admission here before we jump in.
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Cullen
Oh, absolutely. I can't imagine being someone who solely screenwriters as a career. Oh, it sounds terrifying.
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Clark
It's an extraordinary gift. You know? You know, people who who can write with consistent discipline just amaze me. And it's something that I'm trying to work up to myself. But but yeah, And clearly, you know, with the amount of, you know, I don't know, what do you want to call them, self-help books or how to books or I mean, you know, if you look at how many books have been written about how to write.
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Clark
Clearly, we're not the only ones who struggle with this challenge because, my goodness, that's an entire industry unto itself. And some of these books, of course, have kind of, you know, become mainstays and and are referenced all the time. But and I guess they can kind of segway us right into, you know, right off the bat. Herzog in this class just throws down the gantlet is like three act structure character arcs.
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Clark
Who needs them? Yeah.
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Cullen
Yeah. Which is the most Herzog thing.
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Clark
Yeah. And I mean, which is which is interesting. I mean, so let's talk about that for a minute because because it's, you know, I think when when people are taught screenwriting, I mean, the three act structure, maybe five structure, but mostly four films, you know, three act structure, beginning, middle and end character arcs started at a diner. I mean, there's a tremendous amount of emphasis on this.
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Cullen
Yes.
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Clark
Hey, what are you I mean, what are your thoughts? And let's talk a little bit about our own personal experience here. But yeah, so Herzog says, throw it out, you know, But what do you think?
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Cullen
I mean, I think similarly to a lot of the other things we've talked about, I think there's a there's definitely a use and knowing kind of the rules. And then once you know the rules, you can kind of break them. And I think it's similar with writing in that I think structure is important when you're when you're starting out or when you're learning it.
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Cullen
And in even in a lot of, you know, larger scripts, I think that structure is very important. But I also think that if you know what you're doing, you can get away with writing a really compelling script that doesn't necessarily follow the format of of a regular, you know, three act structure or, you know, with character arcs and things like that and some very, very mainstream movies kind of lack character arcs.
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Cullen
And it's the talent of the screenwriter that really, you know, I think you've might have talked about this before, but like Back to the Future, technically, Marty McFly at the beginning, that movie and then the movie is essentially the same person. He hasn't really learned anything on a main character changing kind of scale.
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Clark
That's that's George McFly is the character who goes through the arc.
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Cullen
Yeah. Yeah.
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Clark
Right. Yeah.
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Cullen
So I think on the merits.
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Clark
You know, they rate. Was that the name of the film? Yes.
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Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's his name? Place.
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Clark
That's interesting. Right. So there definitely are characters who have arcs. But you're right. I think Marty McFly in that instance, didn't so much have the arc. It was his father, which is interesting and Marty was a catalyst for. And I think you find that in quite a few films, actually, where the main character doesn't necessarily change much but is a catalyst for the change of other characters.
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Cullen
I mean, yeah, even even the Sergio Leone westerns, like, I mean, it's not like Clint Eastwood has a arc in any of those movies, but he definitely changes the settings around him and the locals. And that's very that's quite a common Western kind of trope really, is that like this mysterious stranger that is technically the main character, the protagonist doesn't, you know, have a real, real arc or set kind of development through the movie, but rather they're kind of more of a whirlwind.
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Clark
Yeah. So, so you're thinking so just to kind of like, summarize. So you're thinking it's good to know about something that you should be aware of, but and you're kind of saying that maybe you should know about these things. It's kind of that old adage of like, you should you should know what rules you're trying to bend or break before you try to bend or break them.
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Clark
Is that what you're thinking?
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Cullen
Yeah, because I think the thing that I think the one thing that these rules prevent is messiness. And they they're really helpful in streamlining ideas. So even if you know you going to write a script that technically isn't a three act structure and you kind of strip away that aspect of it, you can still use elements of that structure to streamline your script and to make sure that it's straightforward and concise.
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Cullen
Whereas, you know, the biggest issue I have with reading scripts from people who haven't, you know, even in the class that I teach, if a kid writes a short film, even that's, you know, ten pages long. Yeah. And they very clearly don't have any sort of background knowledge on screenwriting, is that it's just kind of all over the place.
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Cullen
It's one of those things that you don't really think about, okay, what's even something as simple as just like cause and effect? Yeah, you can you can really easily miss out on because I find that most people, when they write kind of go into this trance where they have it all in their head and it might not, honestly, there's no.
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Clark
Question on the page and definitely seen that too. And I've seen it even, you know from moderately you know, intermediately experienced writers there's no question I don't like get a little philosophical here for a second sort of kind of you know, and I have to say I'm torn. I'm kind of sitting here exploring this idea with you and our listeners in real time.
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Clark
I there's a part of me that thinks, you know, it's in my own experience, I feel like a lot of my challenges that I have spent too much time analyzing is conceptual, you know, in kind of trying to wrap my head around storytelling conceptually and and I think that that has led to a little bit of analysis paralysis for me.
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Clark
And there's, you know, part of me that thinks that story telling is an inherent capability within all of us, at least to some degree. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that writing would come naturally, but as far as talking about story structure, you know, I feel like, you know, story is not that this is some kind of revolutionary thought here, but, you know, stories are just external manifestations of our internal psyches.
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Clark
Right? It's these are just when we write a story, it's basically putting down on paper how our brains kind of work as human beings, right? We, we, we go through life and take the experiences that we have and kind of present them to ourselves in a narrative, right? This is how we see our memories that, you know, we're our main character and our film.
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Clark
And, and and so this is we built like we're just storytelling machines, basically. It's how our brains work. And so I feel like it's, you know, to a certain extent there is this innate in to it, you know, kind of intuitive understanding of story, right? As I think even young children, I mean, you can have them, you know, tell me about what happened to your day or, you know, And so there's a part of me that's, you know, it's that.
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Clark
So to an extent, this exists inside of us. And I think what Herzog I mean, my interpretation is kind of like he's saying, look, if you spend so much time trying to intellectualize, conceptualize, analyze story, that there's a good chance you're going to get in your own way. And I think from hearing him speak, you know, that's what he's concerned about for himself, right?
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Clark
It's like, hey, I don't want to look too closely into this. If I start to dissect this stuff, I'm going to get self-conscious and I'm not going to be able to do it. And I think that's a big part of why he likes to write with such urgency is because he doesn't ever want to give himself a chance, right.
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Clark
To to to start like thinking.
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Cullen
About overthinking and.
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Clark
Writing and getting.
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Cullen
Head.
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Clark
Down. It's kind of like, look, just write. Don't think about it. Just write. And so I you know, so it's interesting. I mean, I think, you know, clearly there are a lot of people who think very differently. And maybe it just kind of comes down to what works for you. But, you know, there's another aspect to this, too, which is like I think one of the reasons his films are so unique and that his voice comes through so cleanly in them is that he does write that way.
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Clark
It's a very intuitive way of writing, whereas if he were to have say, Let's go to film school and read a bunch of books on how to save the cat or, you know, our story and all these, you know, things, and he sat down and had his, you know, he put his postcards or his, you know, three by fives on the board and had his face.
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Cullen
Rearranged all day.
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Clark
Okay, What's my inciting incident or what's my you know, his films would probably come out looking a whole lot like everybody else's films. Yeah. But then again, I think your point is really valid that, you know, for people who don't understand story structure and how to put that into a script, then sometimes you just have a big mush of nothing.
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Clark
So I, I don't know, like, I really, honestly don't know. I think I'm torn on this.
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Cullen
Well, I think it's really interesting that you mentioned the thing about kids, too, because I think honestly, if you think about it, the way that children learn to lie is through getting out of, you know, trouble or things like that. More often than not, it comes from exaggerating elements of a story like, you know, I was on the playground and dramatic and my friend pulled out a sword and and we fought goblins.
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Cullen
Right? And it's like, you know, kids lie like that all the time. And but they're not they're not lying, really. They're they're telling stories that. Sure. You know, that they just don't see the it's flare. It's right. Exactly. Exactly.
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Clark
Adding to the dramatic effect. And so yeah and that so that's a good point to read. And even going further than that, I mean, that right when you're a kid and you're playing with your toys and you have this sort of plastic figure, the you build this entire imaginary world where, you know, it's it's all these things are happening.
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Clark
Like if you're, you know, playing army out in the backyard or something, which I don't know if kids still do that. I'm old. But, you know, when.
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Cullen
I was.
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Clark
Ago when I did that, you had my little G.I. Joe guys or something. I mean, you create this entire world, right? Your you've changed the setting and you've got these characters and I mean that storytelling. So I guess that's what I kind of mean is that I feel like it's this is intuitive to a certain extent. I guess that doesn't automatically mean that that would translate.
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Clark
Okay, well, how do you take these ideas and put them into a written format and maximize their dramatic effect and make them compelling? And so, you know, I think that that you're probably right to some extent that having some kind of conceptual understanding is really important. But probably each of us have to kind of find our own balance of, you know, overanalyzing versus, you know, allowing your intuition.
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Clark
My imagination is that the best of both worlds might be to find a way within yourself to understand intellectually and conceptually, but then to kind of turn that part off when you're writing and allow that intuitive subconscious to flow. Because I really do think that's where the amazing things happen. I mean, I love films that have a dreamlike logic quality that aren't necessarily perfectly linear or make perfect sense rationally.
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Clark
I mean, we have too many of those. I like films that kind of cut that really kind of reveal an interesting subconscious and then likewise are able to speak to my.
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Cullen
Yeah, exactly.
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Clark
Right. So I, you know, that's one of the things that I think really jumps out at me from Herzog's films and one of the reasons I really, really love them.
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Cullen
So at the end of the day, to me it comes down to in any creative art form, I think sticking to any rule is a mistake, like sticking into it.
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Clark
Too dogmatic, you know.
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Cullen
Such exactly dogmatically is, is, is a mistake because you find and, you know, we sort of had this similar conversation in our first episode talking about or in a second, which was time at film school where it is and it, you know, kind of comes back to this whole idea of do you, you know, do you just follow those rules steadfast?
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Cullen
And then because that's so.
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Clark
Mindless.
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Cullen
Constricting.
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Clark
Mindlessly around. Yeah, automatically.
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Cullen
And I've heard people many times, you know, in a in a screenplay and a perfectly good screenplay, not not my screenplays, but like screenplays I've written or three read with other people. And their complaint has been something like, you know, well, I just didn't see a very clear second act break. And it's like, well, what is?
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Clark
They're like, Yeah.
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Cullen
What is that? Where does that where does that? Because of course, it was compelling.
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Clark
Because, my goodness, I mean, if you judged almost all of or maybe all of Herzog's films in that manner, they would all fail, right? I mean, and so, yeah, I think it's interesting and it's, you know, especially like I put myself, you know, back into my more unexperienced self, you know, decade ago or 15 years ago. And I remember reading screenwriting books and things and just thinking like, you know, okay, this is what I've got to do.
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Clark
This is how I've got to do it. Or, you know, people who are in film school or something. And and yeah, I mean, that can really get you in trouble thinking that there's just one way to do it or this is how you have to do it. And there's discussion even further. You know, having lived in L.A. for quite a long time, I mean, there's just so many film schools, screenwriting classes that are at it.
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Clark
And everybody seems to know like everybody is selling some like magic silver bullet for how to write an amazing script. And there's no question I can say that that's horse pucky that anybody out there listening, if you're kind of just starting out and you see somebody try to sell you like the top ten secrets on how to write a killer script or something, just run.
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Clark
Just run from that. Yeah, Lord, don't spend your money on anything like that. Run from it, because that's just boy, that's just crap.
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Cullen
Well, I can remember being in this Facebook group for screenwriting, and I remember I had to leave it because it was just so dogmatic. Like you would post something for feedback and you know, the people's responses would be something like, like some people were generally genuinely helpful, but a lot of people would be like, Oh, it's, it's, you know, your character description doesn't tell me about the man's height or his hair color.
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Cullen
Oh, Lord. And it's like you're I'm sitting there just with my you know, with my head and my face in my hands going, like, what the what is this? You know, I think I think a lot of that comes from a desire of somebody who, you know, again, because a lot of this does come down at the end of the day to talent.
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Cullen
But but I think that a lot of times it's the people that kind of lack that natural talent that go to the rules and go, well, I know the rules really well, so I'm just as good. And so they kind of become dogmatic like that and kind of go like, you know, I can't maybe I can't write a great script, but at least I know the rules and I can criticize somebody else's script and make myself feel better because they, you know, their script didn't have action lines like, I write them, right?
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Cullen
Yeah. So it's kind of funny.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
And then even just I mean, even formatting is so such a thing that I mean, Herzog does mention that about, about, you know, formatting.
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Clark
Right?
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Cullen
You know, do you. There's definitely a reason for it. But you know, those.
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Clark
Versus writing, you know, in a perfect script format. Yeah. Which, which I think he kind of mentions in this lesson that for the vast majority of his career, he just wrote kind of in a novel form in prose, and then only recently that he started to put, you know, use and I don't and I've not read any of his current scripts in original formatting, so I don't know.
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Clark
But it sounds like moving more toward a quote unquote proper script format.
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Cullen
I mean, I used to write on Google Docs and have to format every single margin myself, which was hell. But that's how I mean, Paul Thomas Anderson writes like that, apparently still to this day, he writes in Microsoft Word without any plug ins, and he formats every single line. And honestly, there was, weirdly enough, a rhythm that you got into when you were doing that.
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Cullen
Like it was like almost like you were operating a machine, like a typewriter.
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Clark
In fact, you think you're him as you get into a trance.
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Cullen
I mean, I've written on a typewriter, not, you know, a full script, but I've I've played with typewriters before. We used to have one at my school, and I would type in it all the time. It was a lot of fun, but there is kind of that feeling of like so operating in old piece of machinery.
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Clark
It's like a novelty for you. You're like, I just like a typewriter. And I'm like thinking to myself, Dude, I remember writing papers in high school on a time that yeah, because the.
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Cullen
All the best, whenever it was, I remember.
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Clark
I was like, that's what we did. Like, that's what my.
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Cullen
Uncle had one that was like one of the ones that you could type out, you know, your entire sentence and then hit print and it was all printed out. You didn't have to worry about waiting things out. No. Yeah, but.
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Clark
Had. But yeah.
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Cullen
But no, I mean on that point there, there is definitely a kind of the way I always describe screenwriting to, to the students that I teach is that it's, it's just as much a technical blueprint and like document about the film as it is a storytelling device. And the best screenwriters will balance both of those things to a point where, you know, reading a screenplay, a really good screenplay, doesn't feel like reading a novel.
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Cullen
It feels like there's a rhythm to it, like you can feel the shots and you can feel the, you know, the how the lines move into the next ones. And I like, you know, when I write, I don't I don't actually write all that much. I much rather get another like a, another person to write for me. And then I kind of tear apart that script and, you know, make it make it my own.
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Cullen
But when I do write my own stuff, I really do like to have that rhythm to it. And it's not necessarily the way that a novel is written. It's much more, you know, there's there's beats. You can feel those action beats and you can feel almost like the best screenplay makes you feel like you're watching the movie really well.
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Cullen
This is kind of the.
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Clark
Basic, and I think it brings up a couple points, at least kind of peripherally, is that I mean, it certainly matters like who you're writing the script for. So as we're talking here, you know, we are kind of you and I are talking about script writing from the assumption that the person writing the script is the director, right?
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Clark
Because I mean, we're talking about Herzog. He doesn't write scripts for other people. He you know, when he directs his own scripts. So certainly you have a much, much wider latitude. And I mean, you can write a script however you want if you're going to be the director and if you are financing it right, if you're funding it, you can write it however the hell you want.
00;20;15;21 - 00;20;37;21
Clark
So if it works for you, for example, where you write it in screen screenplay format and it's very visual and it has a very visual rhythm to it because that's what you need to kind of go back to it and use it as a blueprint for directing. And that's what you do if you want to write it in a in a kind of a novel form, then, and that works for you, then that's what you do.
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Clark
And of course, if you're writing a script to try to sell it, if you read a script on spec or you know, then that's a whole different ballgame there, you know?
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Cullen
Yeah, you can't make those choices.
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Clark
That are, you know, it's yeah, then that's a whole different thing. And you really do have to stick to the two screen screenplay formatting and that, that kind of changes everything up that, that really omits a lot of options for you. But yeah, I mean I think and that's where, you know, let's, I think, you know, going back to Reed Reed read Reed Reed, I think reading a wide range of literature is important that will help educate your that'll help you find, I think, your own writing style that works for you as your exercising your imagination, as you read, as you are working to visualize the stories, the characters in the literature that you read,
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Clark
you can start to kind of piece together what works for you. And then, of course, writing, I mean, getting in there and writing ideally every day, at least some is a is a you know, that's as you talked, you mentioned talent. I don't know. I might I might argue a little bit with you there. I don't know really what talent is.
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Clark
I don't even know if talent is a thing that I can't really define or understand. So I kind of just don't think much about it. I think I think of like, just working, you know, if you want to be a writer, right. Every day, read every day and just just do it. I don't know what inherent talent means or not.
00;22;12;11 - 00;22;38;13
Clark
And let's say it even does exist. Well, if it is truly inherent and you can't change it or do anything about it, then what does that mean to me anyway? So, you know, just do it. I think sometimes we have a tendency I certainly know I've done this to myself where you start. Well, if you start thinking about it in terms of things that you can't control, like, well, there's this like innate thing called talent that's inside of me and it's just what I am.
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Clark
And I don't know, I guess kind of not to get too far down another track here, but I kind of would just prefer to be like, well, I mean, they're going to write or I'm not. Yeah, so do it or don't. And this whole thing about talent, I don't even want to waste my time thinking about it because it doesn't feel like it's a definable thing for me and and it's not in my control.
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Clark
So just say by you know, I don't know if that makes sense, but.
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Cullen
I know I mean, I think of it more in a way of like, of luck when that and some people are just more naturally inclined to to be able to do something well, but at the same time, you know, some of those people can be equally as good as somebody who just worked at it and who didn't have that natural and inclination.
00;23;21;01 - 00;23;39;02
Cullen
And so it's completely to me, it's more of a it's a moldable thing that might set someone ahead in circumstance but can be overcome. Yeah. But I also think I mean, just in general note too, about about, you know, format and whether or not you should write every one of your movies in a, in a specific format or things like that.
00;23;39;12 - 00;24;04;10
Cullen
The two longest short films that I've made which each, you know, we're around 25 minutes or so, they were both written, you know, they were both neither of them had script and other them had screenplays. They had documents that that had the story in them. But at the documents were more like beat sheets or or like treatments that just kind of described what went on in the scenes, you know, for specific moments of dialog.
00;24;04;10 - 00;24;30;12
Cullen
Of course, I would write out the dialog. But as far as, as, you know, exterior for us today, you know, our hero walks into the clearing and pulls his gun and, you know, fires it like there was none of that. There was. It was, which I think is funny because for the shorter movies I've done, the you know, the shorter short films I've done, I've done almost always had had formatted screenplays.
00;24;30;12 - 00;24;56;02
Cullen
And then even the the feature that I'm coming up on right now is kind of one of those things where in as Herzog gets into later, where he says, you know, be prepared to throw out your script on the set. Yeah. It's one of those things that with my producers were really talking about and this is a also to be, you know, specifically about this this is a screenplay that was written by a treatment by somebody else that I then adapted into the screenplay format.
00;24;56;02 - 00;25;16;24
Cullen
So it wasn't even, you know, on that. General No, it wasn't even just something that came right out of my own brain. It was it was an adaptation of another work technically. And, you know, with the producers, we're in this kind of talk right now about like, let's just have fun with the location. You know, if something comes up on location, we're like, that actually might work way better.
00;25;17;06 - 00;25;25;24
Cullen
And I think that a lot of people stress about that and people see that kind of, you know, be again, be prepared to throw it your script if the dialog doesn't work, blah, blah, blah on.
00;25;25;24 - 00;25;44;27
Clark
Set when you have no budget, which yeah, you know, you and I are in that category for the most part. I'm assuming most of our listeners would be. And there's no question I totally agree with you. I mean, unless you're able to build the sets right, or, or lock down any location that you might want, you've got to be willing to do that.
00;25;44;27 - 00;25;54;19
Clark
You have got to be willing to allow what's available to you. So whether it's costumes, actors, sets, you've got to be able to to work with them.
00;25;54;19 - 00;25;56;23
Cullen
Not even whether I mean, even something as simple as.
00;25;56;28 - 00;26;11;09
Clark
It went, right, because you're just not going to be able to dictate it. And so then your choices are, well, do I work with it or against it? Right. And if you are dogmatically sticking with your script and you're not using what's there, you're really cutting off a lot of opportunity for. Yeah.
00;26;11;17 - 00;26;28;00
Cullen
So I think it's funny to look at it that way too, to look at it in a way of being afraid of it or kind of being against it, because I think that that's one of most fun aspects of filmmaking. And of course that's subjective. But like I, there's nothing more fun to me than just kind of being with a group of creative people on set.
00;26;28;00 - 00;26;48;15
Cullen
And and I think that that's, you know, a really nice way to approach it in that especially, you know, working with actors like your actors are, if they are, you know, not even necessarily if they're trained, you know, you could just have someone who who's who's a great actor who has never had formal training, but work with them, like be able to sit down with them and kind of go, okay, how do you feel?
00;26;48;15 - 00;27;08;06
Cullen
Because if anything, they should know their characters. Just as well as you know them. And you can then have a conversation about, you know, what? What do we want to do here? What what's what's interesting? And I think Herzog really talks a lot about even his conversations with Nicolas Cage on Bad Lieutenant, where they would have these, like long conversations about the character.
00;27;08;06 - 00;27;23;10
Cullen
But it wasn't about, you know, scene to scene motivation or things like that or what do I want in this moment? It was these really general conversations. And, you know, another example of that is Sigourney Weaver on Alien came from a theatrical background.
00;27;23;10 - 00;27;24;19
Clark
I didn't know her offstage.
00;27;25;08 - 00;27;28;23
Cullen
Oh, he's a it is. It's his lesser known Pixar.
00;27;29;04 - 00;27;32;01
Clark
So that I mean, he was on it. But yeah, you know.
00;27;32;17 - 00;27;36;05
Cullen
Ridley Scott doesn't actually exist. But that's just Herzog's pseudonym.
00;27;36;11 - 00;27;40;11
Clark
That's Herzog's like more studio work.
00;27;40;11 - 00;28;10;25
Cullen
But no, but he so Sigourney Weaver in that of course, coming from a stage background, had so much work on the character of Ripley like this, this binder, this massive binder of just notes that she'd made about this character that, you know, half of that stuff, probably the vast majority of that stuff, never ended up on screen. But I think that as directors and as writers and as actors and, you know, as the kind of core creative team in any movie you should, that is always going to inform decisions.
00;28;11;01 - 00;28;40;12
Cullen
And I think both of you and I can really speak to that just because we both do have acting backgrounds where it's like even if something as simple as, you know, what my character did yesterday never appears on the screen, my knowing that will inform the decisions that I make as that character in each scene. And sure. And a lot of that can come from loosening up on your script and kind of giving your actors the opportunity and your cinematographer even and anybody the opportunity to kind of go, you know, where do I want to take this?
00;28;40;12 - 00;29;07;00
Clark
Well, And I think, you know, to take it from acting back to writing, I mean, boy, and this is a topic we could just I mean, we could spend, you know, a thousand episodes on just writing, of course. And there are podcast out there that definitely do that. But, you know, a couple of things, you know, so talking about problem solving, which just goes back to being able to be flexible and using what you have to to tell your story as opposed to trying to, you know, shoehorn something into what you don't have.
00;29;07;08 - 00;29;34;17
Clark
I mean, I think filmmaking is, you know, probably 98% problem solving. I mean, especially as a director, certainly, you know, producer as well. I mean, this is what you're doing. Like it's it's just a constant stream of having to be having to creatively solve problems. I mean, I just I've never worked on a film where there weren't just, you know, I mean, every day was just a string of of I you can call them challenges, you can call them opportunities.
00;29;34;17 - 00;29;52;14
Clark
But I mean, no matter how well you plan, ultimately you're going to get there. And on the day you're going to have so many decision points and you can kind of see it as like taking opportunity or as, you know, just fighting every one of those opportunity points to just, you know, stick to exactly what you've got on on the page.
00;29;52;20 - 00;30;23;14
Clark
And at this level where, you know, at this kind of budget, you just you can't control all the variables around you. You know, we're not, you know, Christopher Nolan or David Fincher, who can make $150 million film and control every single variable, you know, and have such a like, sanitized set. And then of course in post get to CGI everything the way they want it, you know, So, you know, not that they don't have their their own challenges and opportunities and creative problem solving.
00;30;23;14 - 00;30;43;16
Clark
Of course they do. But I mean, I just I think that that that's such an important thing to remember is to, you know, to remain flexible is just so key and to see those as opportunities. Yeah. And not get caught up. And then and then you also you talk about as you talked about the background or the homework, the background work that actors do.
00;30;43;23 - 00;31;16;04
Clark
You mentioned Sigourney Weaver in this huge, you know, Trapper Keeper. I don't know. I said Trapper Keeper, I just do you remember? Can I just imagine? I imagine Sigourney Weaver, you know, this is like and this one was alien. Was that like 70, 79, 79? So you think about this, you know, Sigourney Weaver, she's young and she's got this like purple trapper, Trapper Keeper filled with all of her, uh, alien notes that anyone I don't know where my mind's going, but I just imagine Trapper Keepers were cool.
00;31;16;04 - 00;31;48;12
Clark
I missed them. I don't know if they're still around, but anyway, you know, same as a writer, though, right? So, you know, and this is there's a horror film that I'm working on as a producer and working with the the write this the writer of that script. We're going through the handful of rounds of revisions and of such a big part of what we're doing is making sure that that there is a universe that this script sits in that extends well beyond the pages.
00;31;49;03 - 00;32;20;08
Clark
And, you know, I'd be interested to know Herzog doesn't specifically talk about this, but my guess is that in his mind, he has a universe that these scripts sit in and that he may just keep them in his mind. But I think that's a big part of when he's writing, you know, a script in a novel form. He's actually that's a big part of it, is that he, you know, within the writing, there's so much more than what's going to ultimately literally be onscreen, but it informs what's on the screen in very important, significant ways.
00;32;20;17 - 00;32;41;28
Clark
Yeah, Yeah. And so in this particular film, the way we're going about that is just, you know, working together as a team to make sure that this universe is consistent. And there's a logic to it, at least within itself, right? And that it exists well beyond just the pages so that it does inform so that there's a density and depth of of information there on the screen.
00;32;42;04 - 00;33;03;21
Clark
That's compelling, that's interesting. So things make sense and have purpose within its own little weird, funky universe. So, you know, but he doesn't specifically speak to that. But I would be I would have been interested to kind of know, you know, but my guess would be that that he's got a lot more there in his head than what you just see on screen.
00;33;03;21 - 00;33;05;10
Clark
I think that's pretty important. So.
00;33;06;04 - 00;33;38;18
Cullen
Yeah, I mean, that's it's it's a great point because I think there's that just kind of like you said, and very much in line with that idea of, you know, an actor knowing what their character did yesterday, will inform the decisions they make on that day. Very similarly. You should know the rules of your world and things like that, and the world in which even if you're writing a drama that takes place in this very real world, there are still, you know, rules and there's still circumstances outside of your film that will decide factors within it.
00;33;39;09 - 00;34;11;06
Clark
Um, as a caveat, though, as a caveat, I would say. And B, you know, I would say you can go too far though in that direction where and I actually have run into this myself, where I've kind of had to stop myself, where you, you can get really caught up on that where okay, the cause effect, relationships, the motives, actions, the you know, everything that's happening has this like perfectly rational, literal, you know, train of thought that makes perfect, rational, literal sense.
00;34;11;18 - 00;34;17;26
Clark
Be really careful about that, because I think that's one of the ways that you can really take away what Herzog is talking about here.
00;34;18;07 - 00;34;19;23
Cullen
Which is, Oh, yeah, yeah.
00;34;19;26 - 00;34;46;00
Clark
Which is that, you know, the reality is, is that the crazy shit happens in the world all the time and, and things, you know, are human behavior. It can some time. I don't even know how rational it really is. Actually, when you boil it all down, it seems that we're quite emotionally driven. So I don't know. I mean, have allowed that's that space for your subconscious that things may not on surface, on face value seem to make sense.
00;34;46;00 - 00;34;53;22
Clark
Or why did this happen or why did that happen? But you know, I don't know. So just careful, you can go too far and kind of analyze out. I guess this kind of speaks to the.
00;34;53;26 - 00;35;00;07
Cullen
I think to to me, my mind, my mantra on that is kind of that the screen supersedes all if that makes sense in.
00;35;00;07 - 00;35;00;17
Clark
That.
00;35;00;17 - 00;35;25;27
Cullen
And, you know, so if I'm writing rules for a world, especially in something like where it doesn't maybe take place in our world or or there's very specific things about like horror or things like that where, you know, okay, these paranormal things do exist. What what are the rules around these ghosts? What my oma, what I always think about in my head is and a good example of that is the movie it follows, which a lot of people loved.
00;35;25;27 - 00;35;27;23
Cullen
I thought it was okay, but it was interesting.
00;35;28;10 - 00;35;33;00
Clark
It didn't jump out. Yeah, I heard rave reviews and I watched it and I was yeah.
00;35;33;01 - 00;35;37;27
Cullen
It was kind of, you know, it was it was it was a fun, fun hour and a half or whatever it was. But I didn't I didn't.
00;35;37;27 - 00;35;38;25
Clark
Think it was. Anyway.
00;35;38;25 - 00;36;14;20
Cullen
Yeah, exactly. But, but it's a great example of like rules in terms of what can this monster do and what can't it do. And there were points, especially near the end of that movie where they started to get a little fuzzy. And so that's that's kind of where I mean, to think about those things when you're writing. But at the same time, what I mean by the screen supersedes all is if there's something that happens in your movie on screen that breaks one of your rules, but what occurs on the screen makes up for it or explains it in a way that that kind of bumps over it.
00;36;14;20 - 00;36;46;17
Cullen
I don't mind it. It's one of the reasons that one of my least favorite film discourse kind of topics ever is talking about plot holes. Yeah, because I find that so, so often if you're watching a movie, you don't notice the plot holes really until you think about it afterwards. Yeah, which sometimes is an issue, but a lot of the times it's like, I don't, I don't care if, if, you know, I have to wonder why that person chose to drive to that location or instead of walk or vice versa or, you know, things like that I think are so, you know, if a great example of that is is Hitchcock with I can't read
00;36;46;17 - 00;37;05;16
Cullen
what movie it was but Hitchcock tells a story about an actor walking out of a hotel door and looking up at the building across the street. And Hitchcock said, Don't look up at the building across the street until you get to the curb. And the actor said, Well, I can see the top of the building from inside the lobby.
00;37;05;16 - 00;37;19;15
Cullen
I don't I don't actually need walk to the curb. And then Hitchcock said, Yes, you do need to walk to the curb because you need to get into the shot and look up so that I can then cut to the shot, right? Yes. And he was like, and then I have to cut to the shot of the building across.
00;37;19;15 - 00;37;41;16
Cullen
So I have to see you look up. And it's one of those things right, where it's like logically, I mean, that's not necessarily a plot hole, but logically, yeah, the guy could see the building from inside, but sometimes and that's kind of what I mean when I say the screen supersedes all that. There's certain there's logic that occurs within the way a camera captures a scene or a visual that might not fit with the logic of your script.
00;37;41;16 - 00;37;51;09
Cullen
And I usually try to focus on the logic of that camera because at the end of the day, that's what people are going to be seeing of your film is is the is what the final camera captured.
00;37;52;00 - 00;38;10;20
Clark
Yeah. Well and it's just too you talk about plot holes I mean I would imagine that if you looked at if any one of us looked at our own lives, even our actual real lives may have quite a few seemingly plot holes to an outside an outside viewer, I imagine quite a few. But, you know, even in even insanity, kind of has its own logic and rules.
00;38;10;20 - 00;38;45;15
Clark
But it's it's not something that we could, you know, dive into to the extent to which this subject might demand it. But but it is is something to to think about and to kind of, you know, look at and find your own technique in writing and maybe try both if you're kind of just starting off at a right as a writer to just see what you can do sit down and but let's so let it kind of like Segways in into that like okay so we've talked about it kind of philosophically, but, you know, Herzog talks about how he actually logistically writes in this lesson.
00;38;45;26 - 00;39;14;06
Clark
And for him, you know, he talks about really psyching himself up, you know, and and this, like, really speaks to me because, again, this is one of the scariest aspects of filmmaking to me. So psyching myself up is is kind of key. But he talks about how he gets inspired. You know, he starts off by reading, you know, what he considers high caliber writing, and he works himself up into, you know, he uses the word he's playing Beethoven loudly.
00;39;14;06 - 00;39;36;05
Clark
And, you know, this, you know, oftentimes on repeat the same song over and over and over. And he says that this carries him along, you know, and that he likes to write really fast. And he talks about writing entire scripts and, you know, two, five days. What are your thoughts on that and how does that contrast or align with with the your process?
00;39;36;09 - 00;39;56;10
Cullen
I mean, I think it's really I think everyone, again, has has their own method. And so I but I do kind of align with that. I listen to in a very different ways. So like for the documentary that I'm doing right now, that's just wrapping on the score I wrote that by listening to Haydn lately.
00;39;56;10 - 00;39;59;12
Clark
Ricky Coen You're you're rapping on the score.
00;39;59;25 - 00;40;00;22
Cullen
I am rapping, yeah.
00;40;00;24 - 00;40;01;23
Clark
Can you give us a few?
00;40;01;24 - 00;40;24;20
Cullen
Well, I mean, lay down a beat for me later, but I know that when I you know, I sat down, I listened to Gorecki and his symphony number three, and I wrote pretty much the entire which is like this this tragic, beautiful piece with this operatic singer over it. And, you know, I wrote the entire narration on that on, that over that score.
00;40;25;09 - 00;40;34;05
Cullen
And then there were other very literal times where I've written, you know, I wrote an entire script that was like kind of almost a Herzog thriller, this feature length script to Stravinsky's The Firebird, that entire.
00;40;34;08 - 00;40;56;29
Clark
I'm curious, like, I'm genuinely curious. I want to take you back even before this. So I'm just curious. It's it's, it's always interesting to kind of hear other people's creative process who Herzog shared his books with us. But I'm just kind of curious. I mean, before you even get to that point, how is there anything that you do, any kind of I'm kind of big on rituals.
00;40;56;29 - 00;41;08;12
Clark
We could talk about this, but I'm curious for you. I mean, do you just, like, grab a laptop, sit down on a couch and start writing, or do you have a space? Do you do you write at a consistent time of the day or is it all over? I mean.
00;41;08;18 - 00;41;25;13
Cullen
I don't I don't come up with ideas. I think that's that's kind of my my main by that. So all of any time I come up with something, a screenplay or whatever, it's from something that I've seen. So it's not something I thought of. Like I'm not somebody that up these things in the shower and then goes like, I got to write that down.
00;41;25;13 - 00;41;47;00
Cullen
It's always so an example is that that the Hitchcock kind of parody, not parody, but the Hitchcock style movie I just did that short kind of experiment. I came up with that because I was standing at my window one night and a bus pulled up and then drove away and I thought, Oh, be kind of neat. If someone like I got off that bus, who I knew was coming to either kill me or something like that.
00;41;47;03 - 00;41;49;13
Clark
And you don't call that coming up with an idea like.
00;41;49;29 - 00;41;52;10
Cullen
Oh, sure. I mean, no, no. I mean, technically, yes.
00;41;52;10 - 00;42;10;14
Clark
But this is curious to me. Okay. Yeah, this is interesting. Let's explore this for a second. So you're saying just we're using you as an example because I think so many people are challenged by this, by the by this process. So we use ourselves as guinea pigs and kind of to contrast and compare to what Herzog talked about in the lesson.
00;42;10;14 - 00;42;26;15
Clark
But so it's interesting that you said I'm not the kind of person who comes up with ideas, and then you go on to describe how you're standing in front of your window and you see a bus go by and your imagination takes off and you're like, Well, what if, you know, this person got off the bus and they were here to kill me?
00;42;26;27 - 00;42;33;10
Clark
And then it kind of blossoms from that. And I'm curious, why do you feel like that's not coming up with ideas? Like that's interesting to me.
00;42;33;10 - 00;42;50;19
Cullen
I see more of it is like the world generating those ideas for me because I'm not somebody who can sit, you know, I've got friends who can sit down at a laptop and just throw something out, rattle off, just, just rattle off a story. Whereas I'm someone who very much more like will kind of be signaled those ideas.
00;42;50;19 - 00;43;01;19
Cullen
And maybe that's one of the reasons that I prefer to get other people's scripts given to me for something to direct because I can. I then once I've got that starting point, I can go all over and I can I can.
00;43;01;29 - 00;43;02;26
Clark
Tweak, start.
00;43;02;26 - 00;43;24;01
Cullen
Generating ideas on my own and go, What if we do this instead of that and things like that? But when it comes to the, the like, the creation of those ideas, it's usually something occurring out of my control that I go, That's really neat. Even another example of that is the the movie that I made for Herzog's Masterclass back in 2016.
00;43;24;10 - 00;43;25;06
Clark
Yeah, way back.
00;43;25;06 - 00;43;42;20
Cullen
Was was created because I was taking in groceries from the car one day and I thought, wouldn't that be weird if there was a car sitting outside of my house? And I thought, Wouldn't that be weird if, you know, I was taking groceries and I came back outside and that car had been following me the day before and it's like, Oh, now, now it's now it's at my house.
00;43;42;20 - 00;44;05;28
Cullen
And that was the basis of that story that that I wrote and that turned into a movie. And it always also involves music, which is weird in that like normally what will happen is something like that. And then I will sit down and kind of start listening to music that it reminds me of. So again, like I said, the Stravinsky, the Firebird, that whole screenplay came out because I can't remember exactly what had triggered that thought.
00;44;06;12 - 00;44;25;12
Cullen
There was something with a pen. I remember I saw a pen somewhere. I went, That's that could be like a neat plot device if that pen had something inside of it, which is funny. But but then I wrote this whole thing on The Firebird by Stravinsky because that was the music that I kind of popped into my head or even the screenplay that, you know, I'm refining and tweaking with right now.
00;44;25;12 - 00;44;44;27
Cullen
That for the feature that I'm directing was Gordon Lightfoot, you know, which is very different than Stravinsky's The Firebird. But I just love listening to, you know, especially because Gordon Lightfoot, of course, is from, you know, northern Ontario, which is where we are going to be shooting this movie. And it just felt appropriate that I listened to to Gordon Lightfoot for for that.
00;44;44;27 - 00;44;47;05
Cullen
And it which, you know, it's it's interesting.
00;44;47;13 - 00;45;20;25
Clark
Now do you so it sounds like you've mentioned a couple examples where you're inspired by, you know, seemingly benign or mundane life things, which I think is very common or and I think Herzog mentions earlier and know one of the lessons somewhere being inspired, you know, taking where Herzog talks about specifically, you know, I think like for Fitzcarraldo, where, you know, he took one small little piece, which is the steamship being pulled over the mountain out of what he considered an otherwise totally boring narrative and made a film around that.
00;45;21;04 - 00;45;41;09
Clark
So, I mean, do you ever find it? In other words, I feel like inspiration, of course, is everywhere it can be in that pen that's sitting on the table. It can be in a bus that pools in front of your window. It can also be in other words, do you ever find yourself specifically inspired in other stories and in literature or films?
00;45;41;09 - 00;45;43;12
Clark
Because I very much do. Mm hmm.
00;45;43;22 - 00;45;47;26
Cullen
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We're the first to read, right? Exactly.
00;45;47;26 - 00;45;48;20
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00;45;48;21 - 00;46;08;05
Cullen
The first. The first screenplay I ever wrote, full feature length screenplay ever wrote was right after I had read those Zodiac documents, as I mentioned in the last episode about reading. Yeah, I read those that full file and that I wrote, and that was a combination of that. And then I watched Fincher's Zodiac and I kind of got this idea.
00;46;08;16 - 00;46;17;21
Cullen
So very much so is, is the, you know, yeah, that kind of sense that, that synthesis of those two things that came into something that was just that was new and fresh.
00;46;17;27 - 00;46;33;06
Clark
Now, when you write, do you do you have any kind of like, do you have a space that you've set up? Are you do you like anything? Do you have a time of day? Because we can kind of talk a little bit about some of these things, but for you, is any of that a part of your kind of regular creative process?
00;46;33;06 - 00;46;33;15
Clark
No.
00;46;33;15 - 00;46;53;23
Cullen
In fact, the most successful writing stint I've done lately was when I wrote, I think 65 or 70 pages in a day. I was sitting on a chair comfortably. Yeah, yeah. I was so uncomfortable the whole time too, but I just could not. I think it was just when I was like, that's all constantly like, Oh, I should probably go and sit somewhere that'll be more comfortable.
00;46;53;23 - 00;46;55;24
Cullen
But I figured that would, that might ruin the.
00;46;56;00 - 00;46;56;13
Clark
Right.
00;46;56;13 - 00;46;59;01
Cullen
Room, the, that the rhythm I had going.
00;46;59;01 - 00;47;01;02
Clark
But the urgency that Herzog talks about.
00;47;01;02 - 00;47;18;26
Cullen
But no I think I think it's interesting is in contrast with what you said where you said that you do you like that kind of ritual, that that pattern. Whereas I, I don't find that at all. If I have something creative, I'll you know, even if I'm on a bus, I'll pull out my phone and immediately start writing something in a in a notes document on my iPhone.
00;47;18;29 - 00;47;40;21
Clark
Well, and that's, you know, I'm going to write for myself. It's something that I run into quite a bit, right? It's like you're not always you're not in control of when you're inspired necessarily. Right. And so I guess it depends on the extent to which you want to write. But, you know, for me, if I relied only upon, you know, if I only wrote when I was inspired to do so, I wouldn't do a whole lot of writing.
00;47;42;07 - 00;48;13;28
Clark
And so, you know, especially to push myself through, you know, 120 page script because, you know, even if my original idea was inspired, I have never had it be the case that that inspiration just carried me through an entire 120 pages without any dips. Right? It just didn't. It just didn't. It just never happened for me. And so it's interesting to Herzog, and maybe that's part of I obviously never want to speak for him, but just kind of imagining, you know, he mentions urgency as such a vital aspect of his process.
00;48;13;28 - 00;48;27;08
Clark
And I wonder if that's part of it. It's that, you know, when you get it, when you have that inspiration, write it like you did with that 60 pages. You're like, I don't even want to move off this uncomfortable chair, because if I move, if I stop this, if I let this go, it might run away from me.
00;48;27;22 - 00;48;46;04
Clark
So, you know, also, I think writing with great urgency, it kind of it it it forces you to separate the editing and the writing process now. Herzog It's another aspect of his writing. He talks about he alludes to. He doesn't touch his stuff after he writes it, which is kind of wild to me, and it's definitely not my process.
00;48;46;04 - 00;49;07;01
Clark
I Yeah, yeah. But, but, you know, when you write with right, it's kind of that that old adage, right. Drunk edit sober right where he's and he even has a story where wasn't he writing on that. Don't think he was necessarily drunk. I can't remember if he was or not. But he's writing in the in the bus full of soccer or football players and everybody is, you know, throwing up and everything.
00;49;07;02 - 00;49;41;18
Clark
But it's it's you know, for me and I think, you know, maybe the take home for people is not that this is an advice podcast by any means but you know to try a bunch of different stuff. I mean, I'm still trying. It's like sometimes I find like ritual you it works where I have, you know, I will read literature for 15, 30 minutes to kind of separate myself from the day, you know, to separate myself from all of the little, you know, the work issues or just life issues and things to kind of, you know, to to take me into a different mental state.
00;49;41;18 - 00;50;04;24
Clark
It's almost like a meditation, right? And then I have a space that I've set up that I write with. I write in and, and sometimes to for stretches, it would be a specific time of day that I will write. So I kind of know to prepare myself for this thing with my rituals. And that works for some people and, and so maybe it's worth trying.
00;50;05;28 - 00;50;28;04
Clark
But yeah, you know, for me it's like, boy, if, if you are somebody who is regularly inspired to the point where you have the energy to write a script, right? Well, I am jealous of you, but it's just not that way for me. Even if the initial ideas inspired it's a it's a process. It's like a very you know, and it's it's often tedious for me.
00;50;28;10 - 00;50;41;10
Clark
So I've not been able to get to the place where Herzog is, where he is able to write a script in five days and he doesn't worry about my process is very different. Maybe I should put more time into trying that the way Herzog writes.
00;50;41;10 - 00;51;04;23
Cullen
But I mean, again, it's one of those things, too, that once you have that amount of control over your project's totality, you you can kind of make those decisions. I think as an independent filmmaker, if I went to a producer and said I wrote the script, it's the first draft and that's what we're going with, I'd be left thinking I'd be requested, you know, to go and write a new draft.
00;51;05;03 - 00;51;21;14
Clark
We're going to well, this is this kind of would be an interesting segway into the next lesson, which will be our next episode, which is financing for us films. But I would argue that at both ends of your career, you kind of have this power, right? So right now I'm not writing anything for a studio I'm not.
00;51;21;14 - 00;51;22;11
Cullen
Supposed to have. The risks are.
00;51;22;11 - 00;51;45;18
Clark
Low, not trying to sell anything like I'm I'm writing to direct, produce my own film with my own money or, you know, private investors or whatnot that we've gotten. And so I may be beholden to them in some sense, but I control that because I set that up by saying, you know, you're investing in this, but it's not like you're going to dictate the script or the story or etc., or how we tell it.
00;51;46;00 - 00;52;13;21
Clark
So you have control over that. And certainly if you use your own money, which, like I said, Herzog talks about in the next lesson, I mean, you do have that control. Yeah. Yeah, you do. And it's and we can talk about this at different points throughout and in the next episode, in the next lesson. But you know, you're what your goals are really important and talk let's talk about actually a little bit here with writing you know what motivates you as a filmmaker.
00;52;13;21 - 00;52;38;19
Clark
As an artist is so important if you sit down to write because you want to be a famous director, because you want to break into the Hollywood system and be a be a cog in that machine. And I think there's a kind of loaded words. It's not that there's anything wrong, of course, with working within the studio system at all, but, you know, it really does make a difference about how you approach this.
00;52;38;19 - 00;53;05;27
Clark
If you are writing a script because you have a story that's burning inside of you to tell and you have to tell it and you're going to direct it and you're going to finance it, that's just it's such a different beast, right, than if you're sitting down like, okay, I want to be the next Quentin Tarantino. And I was like, You know, I've got to write a script that a reader at this Agent literary agent's office is going to be, you know, is going to think is great.
00;53;05;29 - 00;53;07;12
Cullen
Totally blown away by.
00;53;07;19 - 00;53;23;07
Clark
And write. And then I've got to you know I'm going to be I'm going to get into the Hollywood system and I'm going to be the next big director. I mean, being motivated consciously by those kind of goals, I think produces such a radically different film.
00;53;23;14 - 00;53;28;25
Cullen
Oh, yeah. I mean, unless you're a spec script writer full time, I would say write for yourself. Like even if.
00;53;28;25 - 00;53;44;07
Clark
You're I mean, I would write, I mean, I would say always write for yourself. I mean, I guess my point is this and this is what speaks to me about Herzog, is that, you know, his films, he's always writing from the place of, you know, they talk he uses different analogies, like the robber that's in your house, right?
00;53;44;08 - 00;54;14;16
Clark
It's it's that the story he can't not tell the story. He can't not tell the story. He's got to tell the story. And so and again, just kind of, you know, I think Herzog, the way he lives his life, the way like what we're talking about a philosophy of living and of art. It's living in a way where you can open yourself to the world to such an extent that you can be inspired, you know, to to have to create something so intensely that it's like all you care about is telling the story.
00;54;14;24 - 00;54;25;00
Clark
You're not motivated by fame and fortune and prestige and, you know, all these things. Maybe those things will come to you in time, but it's almost kind of, you know, I just.
00;54;25;11 - 00;54;29;12
Cullen
They're always going to come naturally, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's not going to. You have to be able to force that.
00;54;29;17 - 00;55;00;15
Clark
Yeah. And I guess I'm speaking just to this to some extent because just of my time in Los Angeles and kind of being exposed to that whole that whole mess and, you know, maybe we could just do some podcasts, some episodes on, on that whole experience and all the stories I got from that alone. But I mean, you but it is it is really it does, you know, and maybe if you're sitting out there listening and and you've not kind of been been a part of that machine, it's it might be harder to understand how easily you can get sucked into that.
00;55;00;26 - 00;55;26;22
Clark
And it really does have a profound impact on your creative process. Right. Because all of your motivations and intentions moving into writing and are so changed by, you know, if your goal is to try to make it. And oh, it's just I mean, I've I think that's one of the things that really, really, really stands out to me about Herzog that really I gravitate to him for that.
00;55;26;22 - 00;55;43;24
Clark
It's a reminder to to try to stay pure and and focus on the story as opposed to other external goals of success. But anyhow, so yeah, well, I think we've pretty much covered most of the of the stuff that Yeah.
00;55;43;24 - 00;55;45;14
Cullen
That's, that's a great place to of.
00;55;45;18 - 00;55;55;21
Clark
Of this, of the stuff of the stuff of the, of the content that was in Herzog's fourth lesson. So do you have any other anything that we missed any other final words.
00;55;55;28 - 00;56;00;23
Cullen
No. I think just I think this episode I think that all sums it up really sufficiently.
00;56;00;27 - 00;56;06;10
Clark
I mean, it hey, at least as much as we can do in this episode, right? Of course. Boy, screenwriting could be, you know.
00;56;06;25 - 00;56;10;01
Cullen
On a diet. I think it is. I'm pretty sure there are podcasts based.
00;56;10;01 - 00;56;34;19
Clark
On that have hundreds and hundreds of episodes, which which I always imagined know. I always imagine. Herzog You know, it's so funny, you know, because here he is like, look, don't over it, don't overanalyze it, don't intellectualize it, don't, you know, get out of your head, get into your body and do this thing. And so I'm always kind of, you know, that's I feel like Herzog's looking over my shoulder, his sort of like, you know, head floating here above me, saying, What are you doing?
00;56;35;05 - 00;56;58;11
Clark
You know? Yeah, right. Just right. But anyway, all right, so cool. Well, well, thank you so much, Colin. Thank you. This afternoon, as always, it's been a blast. And for everybody out there listening, I hope that our ramblings have been enjoyable and have maybe given you something to think about. So we look forward to seeing you next week where we will cover it.
00;56;58;11 - 00;57;06;29
Clark
Lesson five Financing First Films. Until then, everybody, have a wonderful week. We'll catch you on the flip side.
00;57;07;11 - 00;57;08;07
Cullen
So you guys my.