Clark
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. In this episode today, we are going to be discussing cinema and Herzog, everything Herzog and like we've been doing in the past few episodes, we're going to be talking about his masterclass lessons. Today we're talking about lesson five and with me to do that is Mr. Cullen McFater. How are you doing, sir?
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Cullen
I'm great. How are you?
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Clark
I'm doing all right. Welcome again to the podcast. Happy to have you here. So let's just jump right in, Willie. We're talking about financing first films in less than five. What a huge topic and one that we all struggle with. I think, you know, Herzog himself still struggles with this, and I don't think you ever get to a place Hartley where you don't.
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Clark
And it's certainly something that's a challenge and an obstacle to sort out when you're when you're first starting out. So, wow, I think a lot of people here are going to have a lot of experiences of pain and suffering in regards to this one. And we can share some of our stories of pain and suffering and also hopefully triumph.
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Clark
But, you know, right off the bat, Herzog comes out of the gate and says, If your story is amazing, then money will hunt you down. What do you think about the truthfulness of that in reality, sir?
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Cullen
What's your.
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Clark
Experience?
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Cullen
I think that it is untrue. I think that on a very basic level, if you had if that were true, then we'd be seeing a lot, you know, higher quality, huge budget productions. But we don't see that. We often see those, you know. Yeah. Or more apt director or say that the ones that people consider to be the the big high quality people oftentimes they themselves have to you know struggle with down to a few but but Herzog being one of them and other directors they definitely have to struggle to get their films.
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Clark
Financed it seems they do and it certainly seems like of course, like many things are subjective, but it seems as though many very poorly written scripts are turned into films as well, are they not? So, I mean, I would love to believe this, and I certainly think in a general sense, of course, the stronger your script, the stronger your story, the more likely you are to get it made.
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Clark
I think that's you know, it's some truth to that for sure. And certainly the more passionate you are about your script, the more you believe your script is exceptional, the more you believe in it. I think that by far and away, the greater your chances that you're going to get it made, because you're going to be there having to pitch your story, having to convince other people that it's worth making.
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Clark
And that passion is vital in doing that. So certainly from those perspectives, I think, you know, kind of maybe philosophically what he's saying, there's definitely truth in it, although it may seem sometimes in a literal sense, it's not always the case, But I would certainly rather start out with the the best script I possibly could. You know? I mean, it's there's so many obstacles against you.
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Clark
It's certainly not a good way to start off with a crappy script like that.
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Cullen
And I think even even on a, you know, the basic principle of it, it's like you have to especially if you're planning on directing your own thing, you have to be prepared to sell yourself to just kind of for sure you as a part of that production for sure.
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Clark
And you know, also just, you know, not only let's say and we're going to talk about this a little bit more, but even if you self-finance, you know, if you like, Herzog talks about you can make your own first film, a feature film for $10,000 in today's day and age. And you can you can definitely do that with today's technology.
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Clark
But you know, what that usually means is that you're working with a crew and a cast that's likely not being paid or are being paid very little. And, you know, you have got to be passionate about your story and you've got to be able to convey that passion and inspire all of the people you're working with. And the more you can do that, I think, the better the quality your film is going to be.
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Clark
But yeah, so whether it's even if you're not going to investors and certainly you have to be able to sell your passion and kind of get them excited about your story as well. But but even if you're not going into investors, you've got to do that with your cast and crew. So it's certainly vital. So, I mean, I can't imagine it blows my mind, you know.
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Clark
Tell me your experiences, but I've got to find a way to be passionate about my story. And, you know, kind of in that moment, that story has to mean everything to me, even if it's something that I've not written. I've been hired. I've been brought on to work with. And maybe it's not the story that I would have necessarily written myself.
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Clark
You know it. I got to find a hook in to it, though. I've got to find a way. And it's not. I don't I would never want to say that I'm tricking my way, my tricking myself into being passionate. But I mean, I really have to genuinely find an angle, find a perspective, find a hook that gets me excited or I just can't work on it.
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Clark
Yeah. So I think from that perspective, like, you've got to find a way to feel in some way like this story is like that. You know? An amazing story, right?
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Cullen
Oh, totally. Without a doubt. Yeah. And I mean, the reason for that, too, is beyond just the creative decisions that you make as an indie film director, you're going to wind up wearing so many different hats every. And if you are not just as passionate with the, you know, the post-production as you are with the production, or you're not as passionate with marketing that thing as you are with with choosing an angle on the on the day of or something like that.
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Cullen
Yeah. Then it's going to, it's going to fall flat and that's, that's you know, I've had those pitfalls too, where it's like I, I'm not a big fan of doing post-production sound. I don't, I don't really love doing it. I like doing Foley But when it comes to actually sitting down and mixing those tracks, yeah, I'm not a big fan of it and.
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Clark
It's tough to keep that.
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Cullen
I had to kind of catch my yeah, I've had to catch myself and kind of go, go, you know, if I let this go, if I drop the ball on even just the sound in post, this could severely harm the movie. Yeah. So, so, you know, you've got to find a way to be as passionate as you can about every single facet.
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Cullen
Again, like you said, even if it's not necessarily your script and something that you've been brought on to do.
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Clark
Yeah, and I, but I and I will say this to just, you know, in, in kind of the highest level kind of sense, you know, I think there is truth in what Herzog saying. And it doesn't always necessarily play out literally, but you know, that passion that that whatever that story is in a way has got to be to you the best story on earth in this moment.
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Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
And because that's the that that passion, that intensity is going to be the only thing that's going to be able to carry you through the entire process that is filmmaking. Because, I mean, it's it just takes such an extraordinary amount of energy and time and money and just, you know, it's such a process that that you've really got to be able to find a way to hold that in your head and heart like that and and spread that passion.
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Clark
Yeah. So, you know, I think in that sense, what he's saying is true. But let's talk about so, you know, there's so many different ways that you could finance your first films. Herzog specifically calls out financed, self-financing. So he's like, Hey, go work, save up money, get ten grand in a savings account. And then you can you can make a first feature film that way.
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Clark
And it sounds like from Herzog's experience, this is what he did on his first few short films. He went out and worked and financed these films himself. Of course, in today's day and age, we've got crowdfunding, you know, all kinds of potential ways to invest. You could get just private investors, friends and family, etc., etc.. What were what are some of the some of the ways that you financed some of your first films and like the successes or failures that might have, you know, that you've your stories you can share from that?
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Cullen
I mean, coming out of high school, a friend of mine and I tried to crowdfund, which didn't work out. We were looking for.
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Clark
Well, tell us a little bit about that, because I think crowdfunding, you know, it's something that a lot of people look to. It's something that I that I'm involved actually in a in a horror feature film right now. We're actually in the process of doing a crowdfunding campaign for that. I can I can speak to that a little later.
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Clark
But what tell us a little bit more about that project. This was it was it was this the first film that you had tried to finance yourself?
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Cullen
Yeah. I mean, technically, I made a ton of short films before, but they were all little kind of. Yeah. Short for yourself. Nothing. Nothing. Huge. Yeah, right, Right. Some of them had gone to festivals, but, like, you know, not nothing big, you know, nothing came of them essentially. But and so this one was we were trying to get five grand to make a, a, a longer form short of a shorter form short that we had done as kind of a proof of concept.
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Clark
Which.
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Cullen
Is kind of maybe where we fell flat. It was so convoluted to plan, but, but yeah, so we, we, we reached out and we, we did make some money on it.
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Clark
Now, did you what platform did you use?
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Cullen
We used Kickstarter, which.
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Clark
Probably.
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Cullen
The big mistakes because Kickstarter, if you don't reach your goal, you don't keep any of the money where there's, there's other crowdfunding platforms where you don't have to hit your goal. It's a flexible goal and you can kind of keep that money even if you don't reach the, you know, five grand that you wanted or something like that.
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Cullen
But we used Kickstarter just because it was kind of the big thing at the time and we didn't reach it. And honestly, in a way, I'm sort of glad that we didn't because we never actually went ahead with that movie. Of course, we'd all just graduated high school and so my friends were going off to university and things like that.
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Cullen
And so it was kind of one of those things where we like, Well, if we have the money to do it, we'll do it. But if we don't get the money, then we'll just not do it. And reading back on it and kind of thinking back on that project and what that would have been, I don't think it would have turned out, you know, as well as as we had hoped back then.
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Cullen
I think just even reading the script now is kind of like, Oh yeah, I'm glad that that wasn't my debut on the world stage.
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Clark
Maybe worked out for the best, which maybe speaks a little bit to Herzog's, you know, first point there that we discussed, maybe the story wasn't strong enough, but can you give us any insight into why you felt like that Kickstarter campaign didn't fly for you anything? I mean, you might have learned.
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Cullen
What I think we didn't realize is that half of that crowdfunding stuff is marketing. The crowdfunding.
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Clark
Yes.
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Cullen
You can. Ton of it sort of, Yeah, exactly. A ton of it. And it sort of sounds ironic, but, you know, if you're looking for five grand on Kickstarter or whatever, be prepared to spend, you know, at least a few hundred dollars on their services that will, you know, put you at the top of email listings or just put you on their front page and things like that, or just get you get your name out on different social media kind of things because you'll be constantly I'm not sure if you guys have or if you've had the same experience with this, but when I was doing that kind of a crowdfunding campaign, I was getting
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Cullen
emails every single day from services that were like, you know, four, $5, we'll put you at the top of this. Oh, yes. We get.
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Clark
Come out of the woodwork.
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Cullen
In readers and come.
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Clark
Yeah, yeah.
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Cullen
And I think that, that, you know, some of those I'm sure are less legitimate than others, but I'm sure some of them are very legitimate. I'm sure that there are there are some.
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Clark
I don't know. I question that.
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Cullen
Why? Just more in terms of just the the like when it comes from actual Kickstarter? Yeah, I think just having, you know, paying to have your your project on the front page of Kickstarter I'm sure makes a huge difference.
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Clark
Right?
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Cullen
And so, I mean, again, it kind of seems counterintuitive to be like, well, I'm trying to make money on this platform that I am now returning that money to too.
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Clark
Yeah, but it's a little. Right. Well, it's certainly I mean, a couple of points that you mentioned, you know, that you found yourself I mean, it's you can find yourself spending a, you know, order of magnitude greater time marketing and maintaining a crowdfunding campaign than you actually are on the film itself. So it's definitely you know, it's it's tough, you know, and I think, you know, Herzog doesn't go into crowdfunding so much and he just kind of more specifically talks about keeping your budget low and and working within about a $10,000 budget, which is still it's a considerable amount of money, but it is obtainable, I think, for most or many people.
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Clark
Obviously, everybody has different financial situations, of course, but $10,000 is a relatively reasonable I mean, even if it takes a couple of years for you to save, that might on it. You know, I think the and this is some of the crowdfunding thing, right, too. To crowdfund $10,000 might actually end up tying you up longer than it would be to just save money on your own and put that time into the story, into the film itself, as opposed to the crowdfunding campaign.
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Clark
But you also, you know, you're beholden to people as well. Let's not forget this.
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Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
So Kickstarter. So I mean, did you have any little like swag or what were your.
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Cullen
Yeah. So, ah, you know, it was pretty standard as far as those things go. Like, you know, if you donate ten bucks, get a poster, or if you.
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Clark
Ever signed headshot of cult favorites, Hey, can I get one of those? Do you still have any left? I'd like one.
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Cullen
I should have taken one when I was down in L.A., but.
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Clark
Oh, man.
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Cullen
But. But no, things like that. Like just, you know, sign up. And I think as the tiers got higher, you know, if you don't like 500 bucks, which we never got, but it was one of those things where you you have a with an Asterix creative input and Yeah. Get chance to see the the the you know working progress of the movie and things like that if you wanted to at some point wouldn't want that.
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Clark
And that might be where things can get. Yeah. The creative input stuff that Yeah.
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Cullen
Yeah I mean that's the thing you kind of have to you kind of have to sell yourself outright and not the other way that I was saying, but you kind of almost like that's why I've kind of straight up and never done it again. And I think have made much better movies on my own dime than I would have if I was doing Kickstarter.
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Clark
Or anything like that. So let's speak to that then. So. So the Kickstarter campaign did not go through you ended up not making this film, but so how how did you eventually successfully financed your first film? What did that look like?
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Cullen
My first I actually have to think about what I would consider my first kind of major, you know, crude film, not, of course, Big crew, but like something that I had other people putting their time and effort into as well. And I kind of have two of them. Um, one of them would be a movie that I made in 2018, which was just me basically behind the camera and no crew for most of it, and then one actor for primarily the movie.
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Cullen
But I also don't really count that one because I think that that's something that, you know, there wasn't a lot of logistics around what we could do with that because it's primarily shot, you know, very close to home and things like that. So it wasn't really.
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Clark
But let's pause for a second on that was pause for a second on that, because, you know, one of the things that Herzog goes into to a great extent on this lesson is that you really have to be smart about controlling your crew and cast and that, you know, I mean, it is definitely one of the biggest ways that you can impact the affordability, let's say, of your project is to work with as few people as possible.
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Clark
So, I mean, it sounds like that you followed this advice, something that, you know, you did you've taught yourself. I know that you didn't go to film school, right? So you taught yourself all of these different how to operate camera, how to operate sound, how to do lighting, etc., etc.. And the only thing you can't technically do, I guess, is be behind the camera and in front of it at the same time.
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Clark
So you had.
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Cullen
You'd be surprised if you said.
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Clark
Well, you know, it's okay, fair enough. If you put it on sticks, you're right. You can you could you could.
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Cullen
Have made short, short films like one minute short films that this is true. This I think I would drive myself insane doing anything longer.
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Clark
Yeah, that might it might be pretty tough, but. But I mean, I just want to use it. So this one of the examples, it's like, okay, well, the crowdfunder thing didn't work. You I want to make films. You got to just go with what you've got sometimes. And what you had was yourself and another person and you made a film.
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Clark
So maybe this wasn't a film that had an audience or anything like that, but I bet you learned a lot from it. I mean.
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Cullen
I learned a ton. It also got into a festival in L.A., which was kind of neat and things like, Yeah.
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Clark
Fantastic.
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Cullen
Panelists there. But I think the other thing too, and to not to talk your ear off about about gear, because I think that that's kind of a misconception a lot of people get into is that the way the film.
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Clark
Are.
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Cullen
Just that that kind of talk is that people are like, Oh, I need the best lens. But on on the other hand, kind of threading the needle of that conversation a bit. Yeah, I knew early on that no matter what I did, I wanted to primarily own most of my equipment just because I didn't like the idea of being beholden to a rental or even just borrowing somebody else's gear and, you know, having to risk not being able to have that gear again if I needed to do reshoots or anything like that.
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Cullen
So I very, very early on, you know, my first job that I ever worked, I was delivering pizzas. And the reason that I was delivering pizzas was because I was like, I'm saving up for a nice camera that'll last me a few years so I can get a nice set of lenses and that can be kind of my gear when I move into bigger things.
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Cullen
And then I can also get jobs using that stuff. I can also, you know. Yeah. So I started working jobs as a cinematographer for, you know, larger indie budgets that could could afford to pay me. And then using that money and kind of regurgitating it back into my own projects. So when I say, you know, I totally agree with the mantra of like gear is not everything, You could make a movie on an iPhone and it could be way better than somebody who has an Alexa.
00;17;47;25 - 00;18;17;23
Cullen
But at the same time, I also quite early on was like, you know, I want to make sure that I own this stuff. Then if I'm going to invest in equipment, I'm not going to rent it. I'm going to primarily own my own camera. I'm going to, you know, own my own lighting things. And that, I think, really opened me up to be able to make a lot more or just just to to be less stressed about like I'm beholden to somebody else so that whether it's the rental house or something like that.
00;18;18;00 - 00;18;47;09
Cullen
Yeah. So on this one, one person, one crew movie that I did, which wound up, I think the runtime of it was about 25 minutes that really came in handy because we went up shooting it over the course of like four months. And if I had to, you know, repeatedly go back and rent that equipment, I think I would have stressed me out and I probably would have, you know, probably would've taken longer, not as a matter of financing, because I think the rental costs probably would have been below what I paid for the camera.
00;18;47;09 - 00;18;53;22
Cullen
Yeah, but at the same time, it just gave me such, you know, ease of mind knowing that that was shooting on it was mine.
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Clark
And I know, you know, because I know you all share with the audience. I mean you, you have a particular interest in like especially high interest in cinema cinematography in which not every director necessarily would. So, you know, part of part of your skill set is operating camera is doing deep work. And so yeah, certainly I think this makes sense for you because that, you know, other directors may have less interest in mastering kind of the cinematographer side of the craft.
00;19;25;00 - 00;19;46;07
Clark
Of course, I think that every director should understand, right, should hopefully have a base level of understanding. But but you want to go above and beyond that. And so I think it makes sense. You you have your own equipment so you can hire yourself out and you can not only do you continue to learn and refine your skills on these jobs, but you're actually able to make money that you can put back into your own project.
00;19;46;07 - 00;20;02;05
Clark
So that makes sense, which where it may not make sense for everybody else. But like you mentioned, you know, I think I think I do see that a lot of people say, you know, I don't want to make a film until I have X, Y, Z camera or until I have this lens or until that, you know, and I really would urge people to not do that.
00;20;02;11 - 00;20;25;09
Clark
Yeah, Yeah. And it's right. It's, you know, hopefully you're always kind of working on I'm not going to use the word networking because that's not what I mean, but that you're involved in a community of fellow filmmakers in your area, in your community, because this is right. This is where you're going to go for crew and actors. But, you know, inevitably somebody is going to have gear that you can borrow.
00;20;25;15 - 00;20;43;20
Clark
It may not be an Alexa, it may not be rare, but somebody is probably going to have some equipment that you can borrow. Or worst case, you know, like you said, most towns have some place where you can rent gear or heck, you can shoot something on your iPhone, for example. So don't let that stop you.
00;20;44;04 - 00;21;05;13
Cullen
And I mean, that's exactly it, right? Is is that had I not either made enough money in those jobs to to get what camera I desired or whatever I I'm sure I still would have made the movie for sure that I in even in that movie I did for lowlight scenes borrow a friend of mine, Sony A7 or say a7s right whatever the really good low one is.
00;21;05;13 - 00;21;09;11
Clark
Yeah. Yeah I think they're mirrorless Yeah yeah yeah.
00;21;09;21 - 00;21;36;08
Cullen
So without a doubt you know I think that's the lesson kind of for me is like you look at every single avenue that you can possibly take and do not be afraid to take, take, take, you know, be polite about it, but don't be, don't be afraid to, you know, go into a store even and just kind of ask, you know, do you mind if I shoot here when you guys clothes or do you mind if I you know, maybe I can trade off a promotional video for you guys and shirts can let me shoot in here.
00;21;36;08 - 00;21;39;14
Cullen
Things like that are so important and to have the confidence to do that.
00;21;39;23 - 00;21;50;13
Clark
But let's go back. I want to ask, so what was so that whatever it is that you consider your first film, how did you eventually how did you find it that you self-financed that? What did you. Yes. Yeah. Okay.
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Cullen
Is entirely self-financed.
00;21;52;15 - 00;21;54;16
Clark
If you don't mind. What was the budget roughly.
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Cullen
Thinking back on about probably four or five grand.
00;21;57;23 - 00;22;15;05
Clark
Okay. And so and what was your experience with that? I mean, so you've put your own money into it. I just tell us a little bit about that experience. Did you put together a budget beforehand? Like how did you kind of know that that was what you wanted to save or was it the other way around? No, it was okay, I've got four or five grand.
00;22;15;05 - 00;22;16;10
Clark
I want to make the film I can make.
00;22;16;10 - 00;22;31;06
Cullen
I mean, I was working at the time that I was doing it right. I was actually where I was, essentially. And I think that that's another misconception that people make, is that they think that the budget up front, you get the money and then you make the movie where as so many indie films, you're you're basically making the money as you make the movie.
00;22;31;22 - 00;22;45;19
Clark
So this is a good point. This is a good point. If you're in control, you're not beholden to anybody. And if you kind of you know, if your crew is small, your cast is small, so that you kind of know that they're going to be around, you can make a film over time. Absolutely.
00;22;45;19 - 00;23;06;04
Cullen
Yeah, exactly. And that's that's again, that, you know, like you just said, you kind of hit the nail on the head there, that keeping things small like that means you're less dependent on a larger group of people. And keeping things local means that you're less dependent on locations and you're more likely to know people in the area who are willing to, you know, let you shoot in their house for an afternoon or something like that.
00;23;06;14 - 00;23;24;04
Cullen
Absolutely. But but yeah, no, I so I didn't have a budget out from the outset. I didn't even really have, you know, going back to what we were sort of talking about the last episode, I didn't even really have a script for it. I had a treatment and I made a master short list, so I knew every shot in the movie what we needed to get.
00;23;24;20 - 00;23;33;26
Cullen
And it was something like a few hundred shots. And I just kind of, you know, we just started making it. We really just went out. And how long did it take you and.
00;23;34;04 - 00;23;35;12
Clark
How long did it take you roughly?
00;23;35;17 - 00;23;51;19
Cullen
Oh, jeez, I think I started in, you know, production in like from pre to post-production. I think I started in April of 2018 and the movie didn't actually come out until June of 2019.
00;23;52;07 - 00;23;54;12
Clark
So that's actually not even that bad. Yeah, no.
00;23;54;13 - 00;23;55;26
Cullen
I've heard, I've heard much longer.
00;23;55;26 - 00;24;23;23
Clark
But. Well, and you know, even looking at Herzog's films, I mean, you know, it's so I think it's it's if you sometimes it's easy to kind of get caught up in thinking that most other successful films are made all in one go or very quickly and it is almost always not the case. You know, we talked last episode about Herzog writing a script in five days.
00;24;24;07 - 00;24;46;09
Clark
Well, he may write a script in five days, but it takes him five years to get the film made. Yeah, I mean, I just, you know, so sometimes it can be really disheartening. So I just kind of want to, like, maybe put a little love out there into the audience and just, you know, if you're a filmmaker and and you're struggling, you've been working on trying to bring, you know, a script to screen or bring a story to an audience for years and years and years.
00;24;47;01 - 00;25;10;13
Clark
Understand, remember that that's this is common. This is this is completely status quo. It takes years often to bring a feature film to to total fruition. So, you know, try not to get like, you know, even our our legendary hero, Herzog here has had films that have taken him years and years to film. So a big part of that is financing.
00;25;10;22 - 00;25;31;07
Clark
So and just it's a really good I think sometimes when you you know, you you hear Herzog say, you know, save up to ten grand and then make a movie. Maybe it's save up a few hundred dollars and shoot for a weekend and then save up a few hundred more dollars and shoot another weekend. And, you know, I think as long as you're planning, you can completely make this work.
00;25;31;07 - 00;25;33;19
Clark
I've seen it work. I haven't done it myself.
00;25;33;19 - 00;25;43;03
Cullen
So it's even like I think people forget that that a lot of the things that go into like oftentimes the actual shooting of the movie can take less time than the preparation.
00;25;43;03 - 00;25;44;05
Clark
Oh, by far from work.
00;25;44;06 - 00;25;56;07
Cullen
And and so I mean, even on to this this, this feature that's coming up, the first one that that I'm actually in the director's chair for is a wait no we don't have director's chairs on Herzog set for going.
00;25;56;11 - 00;25;57;20
Clark
Right right on.
00;25;57;20 - 00;25;58;25
Cullen
Man But you.
00;25;58;25 - 00;25;59;13
Clark
Stand.
00;25;59;18 - 00;26;03;12
Cullen
You know I'm I'm really lucky to have your producers on this unbroken.
00;26;03;12 - 00;26;03;27
Clark
Glass.
00;26;04;04 - 00;26;27;27
Cullen
Yeah, exactly. With maggots eating maggots. Oh, but. But I'm really lucky to have two producers on this that have kind of alleviated the burden of having to wear all the hats. As the director on that. And that's really, really helpful. But at the same time, you know, we're getting into this this kind of pre pre-production kind of mode right now where we're looking at budget and we're looking at what equipment do we have, what equipment do we need to rent.
00;26;27;27 - 00;26;30;25
Clark
Perfect Segway. He's going to be in it. Let's talk about budgets.
00;26;30;25 - 00;26;31;24
Cullen
Let's talk about budgets.
00;26;31;29 - 00;27;00;23
Clark
A bit, because that's definitely, you know, something that that Herzog speaks to quite a bit here in this lesson, I think. And it really is important and I, I think a lot of creative people don't want to be accountants. And, boy, I don't blame them. I don't want to be an accountant. It's not fun. It really isn't. But I think I agree with Herzog that it is so vital that, you know, if if this is your story, if this is your baby.
00;27;00;23 - 00;27;11;19
Clark
Right. So I'm assuming that this is you're not just a director for hire. Right. If we're talking about Herzog, people are interested in Herzog. And I'm assuming it's you've likely written the script or co-written the script.
00;27;11;28 - 00;27;14;04
Cullen
Yes, I've been involved in the creative process.
00;27;14;04 - 00;27;39;00
Clark
Yeah. It's like you, right? This is your baby. I mean, you've got to take that ownership all the way through into budget. And it's ideally it's great if you can hire somebody, hire a producer who has experience working with film budgets. And this it's great to partner up with somebody like that. It's not always possible. There aren't generally people like that with that experience that you're going to know in a casual relationship.
00;27;39;00 - 00;27;40;03
Cullen
Or even that be willing to.
00;27;40;03 - 00;27;50;11
Clark
Do is willing to do this for free because it's it's just not you know, this generally it's not like the actors, for example, you know, you can often find an actor who will work for free because they want to work and which I'm not.
00;27;50;15 - 00;27;50;27
Cullen
Real.
00;27;51;00 - 00;28;11;14
Clark
I'm not suggesting that you should make a habit of hiring people for free. I think that people should be paid. But you understand my point here. And so but but so likely on your first projects, it's you. And it may have to be completely responsible for the budget. And it is so important. And whether it's your money or not, it's equally important.
00;28;11;14 - 00;28;31;05
Clark
I just always kind of see it as my money. I actually even more if people have invested in my film, my responsibility to them is even higher than it would be to myself. But, you know, you really and again, we talked about creative problem solving in our last episode of certainly this carries through to this, but educate yourself on how to maintain budgets on a film.
00;28;31;24 - 00;28;53;26
Clark
And really, I think you talked about negotiating with locations and offering promotion opportunities and, you know, coopt marketing kind of things. I mean, yeah, it's a get creative and don't be afraid to ask and beg borrow. And Herzog says steal. I'm I'm not going to suggest people steal here He he has mentioned that you know.
00;28;53;29 - 00;28;56;27
Cullen
Our lawyers are telling us to disavow them. Yeah right right.
00;28;56;27 - 00;29;21;13
Clark
Right. But but you know, I mean, hey, I'm okay with stealing shots. I don't have a problem stealing shots. I've stolen a long shot. But when you live in Los Angeles, you kind of have to I think they require permits for practically every in your own home. So, you know. But. But let me go. But yeah, so it's it is important now on your film that you maintain on that one project that you maintain a budget at all or did you learn anything about kind of how to manage resources?
00;29;21;27 - 00;29;26;12
Cullen
Um, no, I think I think a big part of that oh, I think.
00;29;26;27 - 00;29;28;11
Clark
You just shot everything that.
00;29;28;16 - 00;29;30;15
Cullen
I did on the next, on the next.
00;29;30;18 - 00;29;31;00
Clark
The next.
00;29;31;00 - 00;29;53;04
Cullen
One. Oh, on this one because it was so I don't want to say loosey goosey but it was very, very loose, you know, because it was because the one, you know, and I was very lucky that the one main actor that was working with me, there were other actors in it that were very brief roles. But the one main actor that was in the entire thing was just as passionate about it as I was.
00;29;53;21 - 00;30;16;03
Cullen
So there was no issue with having to worry about, you know, any sort of like kind of in a in a negative sense, almost alleviated the logistics out of my my brain because I didn't have to worry about any of that. I kind of could just be like, yeah, you know what? We'll just go out and do this wherever because I know that he's going to be fine with spending, you know, all night just walking around some streets, getting shots.
00;30;16;11 - 00;30;37;18
Cullen
Mm hmm. The next film I did, which was bigger than this shorter runtime, but but much larger in terms of it was a period piece and things like that. So we actually did costumes and things like that. That was where especially because I was working at that point with a team of people as opposed to just myself, kind of as the creative kind of locomotive there.
00;30;38;20 - 00;30;50;19
Cullen
I was working with a with a team of people and we had actors who were giving their time to work with us. We had, you know, people saying, Come shoot on our farm with our real cows and things like that. It was a Western.
00;30;51;05 - 00;30;52;19
Clark
So no cows?
00;30;52;25 - 00;30;53;27
Cullen
Yeah, Real cows. No.
00;30;54;06 - 00;30;55;04
Clark
Not fake cows.
00;30;55;04 - 00;30;57;07
Cullen
No, no, no. Not those fake house that. Yes, that's what.
00;30;57;07 - 00;31;00;13
Clark
We call production value in real cow.
00;31;00;13 - 00;31;16;03
Cullen
Exactly. Exactly. But even I mean, I think that's where I really, you know, like you said, stealing shots. Like I spent, I think more of that day shooting just shots of the cows than I did shooting actors. And I got some really great, really funny shots of cows that are in the movie that.
00;31;16;12 - 00;31;43;17
Clark
We could totally divert here. And talk about Herzog's filming of Animals if we could, which is a very common theme. We won't. We won't. But I just want to point out, is this like something that you share with Herzog? I can just imagine you. Cohen I know this is where the my, my brain works, but I just imagine you with your with your black magic Mini Ursa and you're sitting out in the field and you've got a cow there and you're like trying to direct it, you know, a little to the left.
00;31;43;17 - 00;31;54;16
Cullen
Show me your eyes. Show me the soul. No, I mean, it was like yesterday I heard that there were wild turkeys in the forest near my house and I really grabbed my camera, ran out and started getting video of these wild turkeys because, oh.
00;31;54;16 - 00;31;55;17
Clark
My goodness, it's.
00;31;55;24 - 00;31;57;19
Cullen
Too funny. I'm going to use those somewhere. I know.
00;31;58;04 - 00;32;06;18
Clark
But but. Okay. So sorry. I did not mean to, like, take you off the track there. But. So you were saying so So yeah, this and that.
00;32;06;19 - 00;32;29;11
Cullen
On that production I was much more beholden to others. Yeah. And I think that in my mind got me much more thinking about, you know, we actually kind of, we had a little bit of a preliminary budget, nothing again, nothing like concrete. But we had, you know, okay, we want to buy we need a zoom lens. And again, I was thinking, you know, I'd much rather just buy one than than rent one.
00;32;29;11 - 00;32;44;12
Cullen
And we're not going to get a skinny one. We get those are thousands of dollars. So we got I think we put set aside 500 bucks for this can and 18 to 135, which actually worked wonders for the price that it is. It's a fantastic lens. You know, it's not a fixed aperture or anything like that, but it works great.
00;32;45;22 - 00;33;12;20
Cullen
But, you know, we put so we put aside money for that. We had even, you know, sort of less relate to budget, but more in terms of the logistics of production. We spoke to landowners, people that had like large swathes of forest. We spoke to a old historic pioneer house down the road from where I live, about possibly shooting there that wind up being out of our budget.
00;33;12;20 - 00;33;17;21
Cullen
But it was things like that that we're kind of thinking about, even, you know, in terms of like needing insurance for something like that.
00;33;17;21 - 00;33;18;11
Clark
Where right.
00;33;18;11 - 00;33;38;04
Cullen
That conversation came up and and things like contacting provincial parks. You know, one of the a lot of the movie was actually shot at a provincial park. And so being able to contact those places and saying, you know, can we shoot? Can we get a permit to kind of go in there and shoot or do we just go in there guerrilla style and kind of sneaker out in and get things like that?
00;33;38;04 - 00;33;43;05
Cullen
So lots of things like that that come down to the indie film way of of doing it.
00;33;43;17 - 00;34;03;08
Clark
Well, I mean, I would highly recommend, you know, from my experience, I mean, even when you're when you're setting out to shoot your first short films, you know, I would. And you know, even then it's just you and a few friends. There's likely not a lot of items there that are going to cost you money. But it's important, I think, to start just getting in the habit.
00;34;03;17 - 00;34;32;25
Clark
So whether if all you've got is, you know, the five pizzas that you're buying, you know, and it for an evening of shooting and that's your budget, I would always recommend getting in the habit of of keeping track of this stuff. Yeah certainly And certainly as your crews as your crew and your cast size increase and especially as you jump into working with union actors, I mean, you know, you definitely and you're spending your own money and especially if you're spending someone else's money and especially if you're doing crowdfunding or something, your accounting is going to be vital.
00;34;33;10 - 00;34;53;11
Clark
And again, it's not that you necessarily have to be that accountant, but it's important for you to understand and to be a part of that because it definitely, you know, can happen where, like Herzog mentions, you know, he uses an example of one of the films he was working on and the costume department had, you know, duplicates and replicates of costumes, even for background actors.
00;34;53;19 - 00;34;56;03
Clark
And he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, we don't.
00;34;56;03 - 00;34;57;20
Cullen
Why the hell would we hire?
00;34;57;21 - 00;35;24;24
Clark
Right? We don't need this. And, you know, because those things can happen. So it's it's to take responsibility for that and and make sure that you're going through these things is is really important. And you don't want to lose. You know, not that you're making filmmaking all about making money, but this is just an important reality. If you're asking for people to invest in you, you've got to act in a professional, responsible manner.
00;35;24;24 - 00;35;49;02
Clark
You've got to be a a a reliable, responsible custodian of those investments. And frankly, frankly, you should you know, I mean, you should be treating yourself with that much respect, too, if it's if it's your money, I mean, you know, you should be a responsible custodian of your own funds as well. But, I mean, I, I think that it's it's so important about setting your reputation and setting expectations in.
00;35;49;02 - 00;36;11;07
Clark
Herzog mentions. And I think he takes great pride in this, that he comes in under budget on his films and he works in his contracts to be a bonus on that. And it's clear that he takes pride in this. And I think we should all strive to be that way where there's like stories of, you know, of directors who are, you know, going millions and millions and millions of dollars over budget.
00;36;11;07 - 00;36;23;28
Clark
And these are kind of like these fantastical stories and well, you know, it's like I mean, I can't remember if this is actually the case, but I feel like Coppola in Apocalypse Now comes to mind. I didn't have to like, yeah, he went Howie over. He went just way over budget and.
00;36;23;28 - 00;36;38;09
Cullen
Even Spielberg on it with It's funny, but Spielberg on Jaws two is that was he went over budget and over schedule and then never did it again on any other movie. I think it was just such a learning experience for him that he never yeah, he took that responsibility afterwards to never let that happen again.
00;36;38;21 - 00;36;52;25
Clark
But I think sometimes it's romanticized, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's almost romanticized, but I would really urge people to start from the very beginning, even on your smallest projects and keep track of how much you spend on it and get in the habit of that.
00;36;53;00 - 00;37;11;19
Cullen
And I mean, when you mentioned the thing about the tech, the, you know, nobody wanted to be their own accountant and that's not being that's not fun, you know, to be. Behar I to me, what is kind of a blessing and a curse is that I hate doing that stuff, but I can't not I have to have my mind on budget.
00;37;11;19 - 00;37;31;22
Cullen
And I think that makes anybody really producer friendly. Oh, that makes you really marketable. Because even on again, on this feature right now, I'm coming up with, you know, the numbers that we need for four, you know, even just something as simple as like, okay, we'll need three zoom, see stands with boom poles. We can get those for, you know, a thousand bucks and things like that.
00;37;31;22 - 00;37;54;28
Cullen
Just coming up with with numbers like that. Right. And and making sure that you're on top of it. And I think the reason why and what you know, in lieu of hopefully what you're not then Lou in line with what you've been saying is because it is kind of the flowing blood of your production, you know, it is not to say it's the DNA because, you know, let's not put so much emphasis on money, but it is the flowing blood of the production.
00;37;54;28 - 00;38;02;24
Cullen
And I think that you need to acknowledge that and you need to have your fingers in that at all times. And be able to cut costs or if you can.
00;38;03;02 - 00;38;26;09
Clark
It's a great analogy and be educated, you understand. I mean, Herzog talks about understanding the cost of, you know, even a camel, you know, in another country. And I think it really does. You're right. You mentioned the producer friendly. I think that's so key and investor friendly. Don't romanticize thing where you're you know all you're a director and all you care about is the story and you know, all these other things be damned.
00;38;26;09 - 00;38;31;27
Clark
I just don't think this is realistic. And I it certainly not going to endear you to.
00;38;31;27 - 00;38;33;01
Cullen
And it'll harm your career.
00;38;33;06 - 00;38;57;08
Clark
Or harm your career, but it's so so yeah, you know, and look, it's life is suffering. You don't like numbers. Suck it up if you want to be a filmmaker, I think you really owe it to yourself to get out there and learn. And we're not going to go into, like the details of film accounting and budgeting. There's so many places that you can go online and even get templates, budgeting templates and things like this where you can.
00;38;57;10 - 00;39;25;28
Clark
It's there's and there's books written on this and the whole nine. So we don't necessarily need to go into the logistics of how to do that. Those things are available for you. But just the importance of it and it's I think it will be it gives you just a just one more layer of, I think, power as a director to have command over that, to be able to speak to your investors and producers from a place of knowledge about this is just I mean, it really does.
00;39;26;20 - 00;39;32;18
Cullen
I mean that's the thing. Make a big time. You hear about these these directors that, you know, their careers kind of fall flat or.
00;39;33;22 - 00;39;34;23
Clark
Kind of fade away.
00;39;34;23 - 00;39;53;00
Cullen
Fade away or something like that. It's you you hear about the set stories of them, and most often more often than not, it's it's it's lack of communication between producers or the studio. And there's certainly a such a thing as like studio interference of studios overstepping their balance. But even then, you know, you got to think again, who's financing the movie, right?
00;39;53;17 - 00;40;13;00
Clark
Even if it's just like your family, right? Like like, for instance, you know, we've got a film now. It's called The Devil Devil Circle that's in pre-production. It's a horror movie based on an East Coast legend about this. Well, I don't need to at this start to sound like a plug, but my point is, you know, it's like we're going to we have a crowdfunding thing on we funder.
00;40;13;00 - 00;40;34;17
Clark
But, you know, a lot of these investors are investors that the producers of this film know personally. And I know a lot of people I think, you know, I don't want to use that specific example, a specific example because I'm not sure. But there are definitely examples of people of filmmakers who I've gone to, you know, their friends and family in their community and ask for money from these people.
00;40;34;17 - 00;40;54;29
Clark
My goodness. I mean, do you want to be the person that asks your friends and family for money and then doesn't respect that? I mean, come on, you know it. And it's like even if it's not a studio, I mean, it should be a badge of honor that you would hopefully be proud to wear, that you are a responsible, educated person when it comes to the finances of your.
00;40;54;29 - 00;41;16;12
Cullen
And because then they're more likely to help you out again. Right? Of course. And I think I think, you know, even to to talk a little bit about that, too, and specifics. The so a great example, this is the so the the feature that I'm working on right now is actually a feature adaptation of a short film that I made last year that I was the director.
00;41;16;12 - 00;41;39;09
Cullen
That's That's an example of basically director for hire, where I came into that project not having written any of the script and just directed it and wound up liking that so much that I kind of got myself involved in kind of firsthand in in making this into a film. But the thing is that the lead actor in that movie we shot it at his parents house and it was a short film.
00;41;39;10 - 00;41;57;16
Cullen
It was it took us two weekends to shoot and middle of February. It was a lot of fun. Probably one of the best shooting experiences I've ever had. And when we were starting up production on this and we were figuring out locations and just the kind of very, very basic logistics of the movie that actor sort of said, you know, why don't we?
00;41;57;16 - 00;42;28;27
Cullen
I mean, he's still involved in the project, and he sort of said, Why don't we shoot it at my parents house again? Why don't we just use that? We have that location? And on one hand, I thought, that's good. You know, we have a location, we don't have to worry about renting it. But then there's also a certain point where I kind of call it like the bird jumping out of the nest where I felt myself and the producers agreed that, you know, let's take a step further and let's try and get a location that we can call our own, even though it's going to be more expensive and technically more risky.
00;42;29;04 - 00;42;33;13
Cullen
Yeah, you know, there's a point, I think in indie filmmaking, especially where you do.
00;42;33;21 - 00;42;34;25
Clark
Become a professional.
00;42;35;01 - 00;42;51;07
Cullen
Yeah, and you've got to take that leap of faith and kind of go, you know what? We could follow, you know, for example, Herzog's advice to a tee where we, we utilize that house, we know that they're his parents will be happy to have us. They're completely fine with it. But at the same time, I don't want to be beholden to anybody.
00;42;52;04 - 00;43;06;22
Cullen
And every time we have shot there, there has in this in the back of my head, like if we're shooting late at night, it's like, God damn, you know, I really don't want to keep these people up. I don't want to make too much noise. And so I just much rather have the experience of being somewhere else and having that location be your own.
00;43;07;12 - 00;43;24;29
Cullen
And I think that's that's the idea is cheap, is great. Try and do things and save as much money as you can, but also be so adamant to be cheap that you're you're cutting money on things that may make your production better. Be prepared to invest a little bit of more money into something that may make a big difference.
00;43;24;29 - 00;43;27;01
Cullen
Just like that, like hundred percent location. Yeah.
00;43;27;02 - 00;43;40;02
Clark
And to respect that, the collaborators on your film and to, you know, I think that's important whenever, you know, I would agree right be save money wherever you can but I don't think Herzog doesn't pay the people in his films I mean.
00;43;40;08 - 00;43;40;26
Cullen
Exactly.
00;43;41;10 - 00;44;13;18
Clark
And and this is something that I've seen so much is that even at surprisingly larger budgets, I've got, you know, filmmakers are asking actors or asking crew to work for free or work deferred, which ends up becoming free. Yeah. And and I you know, I think I would really strongly suggest to move away from that. I mean, even if it's, you know, I've done short films that I maybe had, you know, similar budget like you maybe four or five grand and I paid everybody on it.
00;44;15;02 - 00;44;43;23
Clark
It's even honorary if it's $100 a day, right? Even if it's $100 a day or it's gas money, certainly with catering and with food. But I feel like it really is an important step and for numerous reasons. And I think you kind of hinted towards like the impact of like, I want to step away from amateur and move into professional and, you know, yes, we could shoot in your parents home, but I want to be able to control the space.
00;44;43;23 - 00;45;04;04
Clark
So it's, you know, I'm going to pay money and we're going to move into a space that that we can control, that we've paid for. And I think that has a psychological impact. Right? It's like you start to feel like this is less of, you know, a gang of friends and we're just doing this for fun. And that elevates it to we're still friends.
00;45;04;04 - 00;45;08;23
Clark
But, you know, it's like we're we're professionals. And then I mean, it's a job and it's.
00;45;09;00 - 00;45;34;09
Cullen
You know, elevated the whole Yeah. To like, we immediately had a friend of ours who is a theater technician so, you know, stage theater technician and does lighting for that immediately came to us when he found out that we were doing this, this kind of thing. And I had a chance to talk to him and he said, you know, I'd love to help out as a grip, you know, And even a lot of times I think a lot of people also and they will thank you forever for this will come in and say, don't pay me.
00;45;34;09 - 00;45;51;01
Cullen
I don't want to make any money on this. I'm just here because I want to help out. If you still pay those people, they will be thankful to you forever because that just means that you are paying them for their time. Right. And again, like you said, even if it's just gas money, even it's just a small honorarium of $100 a day or something like that.
00;45;51;01 - 00;45;55;29
Cullen
If you're going to build yourself a bigger network and you're also going to.
00;45;56;10 - 00;45;58;23
Clark
And you'll your home. Yeah. And you're really makes a difference.
00;45;58;23 - 00;46;04;14
Cullen
So the likelihood that you make money on it goes down with all of that. But as Herzog said, it's money lost, film gained.
00;46;04;22 - 00;46;10;18
Clark
Wow. That's just kudos on that said I was just the man know I.
00;46;10;18 - 00;46;13;14
Cullen
Should be I should be a radio announcer. Oh, that must be a woman.
00;46;13;16 - 00;46;56;01
Clark
You should have your own podcast. But you know, you're right. And also, I think, you know, and it elevates everybody's game. I just, you know, as an actor, having been on that side of it, and the difference that it makes is it's it's difficult to overemphasize how important, even at $100 a day, the difference it makes when I walk onto a set and I'm being paid versus I walk onto a set and I'm working there for free or quote unquote, you know, credit, which one makes me which makes my head explode or exposure because first of all, what kind of exposure or credit do you think I'm getting from your film project if you don't
00;46;56;01 - 00;47;20;01
Clark
even have, you know, the wherewithal to pay people who are working on it, it's probably not going to amount to much. But you know, the difference that it makes between get it being paid and not being paid is, I mean, literally the definition of professional is that you're paid for what you do. And it just makes such a difference to know that you are valued by the production.
00;47;20;20 - 00;47;48;14
Clark
So I would strongly, strongly urge all of you filmmakers out there to do whatever it is possible, whatever you need to do to pay, even if it's a small amount of money. Everybody that works on your film set except yourself, except yourself, if you have to, you should be the first person you don't pay. But even then, I mean, the goal is always hopefully that you are bring value to a project and that you deserve to be paid to.
00;47;48;14 - 00;48;04;15
Clark
So there's certainly nothing wrong with that. You know, it's ideally your being. You're able to make a living doing what you love. So but yeah, I love that money. Money lost film gained. And you know, I just want to I have heard so many people say, don't ever put your own money into a film project. Oh, my gosh.
00;48;04;15 - 00;48;23;10
Clark
Don't ever put your own money into a film project. Well, I guess it depends on what your intentions are going into it in the first place. I mean, I think that if it's your story and if if it's your passion, if you have this burning desire to tell this story, then there's then and that. And that is the goal.
00;48;23;10 - 00;48;45;21
Clark
The goal is to tell the story. The goal is not to get rich or to make money or to be famous. If your goal is to tell this story, then you should absolutely put your own money into it, because that the point is to tell the story. And so I don't see anything wrong with it. If you're using film as a way to to try to like play some kind of market and make money.
00;48;45;21 - 00;49;06;29
Clark
And if you're worried RBI and all these kind of things, then you know, yeah, probably putting money into a film is not going to bring you any of those things because such few films make money. But if your goal is to is to make film, then money lost is okay. And there you know and there's nothing wrong with that.
00;49;06;29 - 00;49;31;25
Cullen
Exactly. Yeah. So yeah it's it's it's to me it's like an investment of your own. And not only not only maybe not an investment, they make a return, but an investment in your own career. And it gets, you know, and if you work hard enough at it and you do it regularly enough and you kind of develop that skill set, it gets really exciting when you get to a point where you go, Hey, I might actually be able to make money on this thing.
00;49;32;00 - 00;49;37;20
Cullen
Yeah, it kind of, you know, you reach that point, you go, cool, you know, Yeah, I'm out here and.
00;49;37;24 - 00;49;46;29
Clark
It's a cliche. It's a cliche, but the journey versus the destination and, you know, if you want to be a filmmaker, all you have to do to do that is to make films.
00;49;47;12 - 00;49;57;01
Cullen
And how I always think about it, too, is it would be even if I didn't want to do it as a career, it would still be a hobby of mine. And there are a lot of people who spend a lot more money on their hobbies.
00;49;57;12 - 00;49;57;21
Clark
Like a.
00;49;57;22 - 00;49;59;26
Cullen
Regrets thing about like auto.
00;49;59;26 - 00;50;00;09
Clark
Racing.
00;50;00;09 - 00;50;17;08
Cullen
Maybe there's the greatest part about this hobby is that it is a hobby I can make money with, even if it wasn't, you know, even if I wasn't doing it as a career, I could still. Yeah, like it's one of the only very few hobbies can, can make a return of actual monetary value. And not that you should be going into it with that only on your mind.
00;50;17;08 - 00;50;29;00
Cullen
But but it does have that benefit like. And that's why I think it's so silly when like you said, I hear people say like never put money into your own project, blah blah blah. Never. It's like I'm putting money into it because that's what I like to do, you know, even if I don't.
00;50;29;09 - 00;51;00;09
Clark
Make a record. And that really should be, I think, the primary motivator, right? I mean, it's something that you should you should enjoy the process. And if you let's say you took Herzog's advice and you spent $10,000 to make a feature film and you made a feature film and you had that as your end result, regardless of whether it breaks you in to Hollywood or returns you thousands and thousands of dollars because you sold it to Netflix or whatever the case may be.
00;51;00;20 - 00;51;25;27
Clark
I mean, to have a feature film $10,000, I mean, how much film school is $10,000? It's probably not much at almost any film school you can ever write. I mean, it's like that's pennies. The amount you will learn from that and the people you will meet and the experience you will have, I think. Yeah, I So I'm totally in disagreement with people who say, Don't put your own money in.
00;51;26;11 - 00;51;54;25
Clark
And I you know, some of the most extraordinary, wonderful experiences I've had personally have been, you know, being part of a film crew and or cast and working on these things. And it was I mean, you know, paying for like a fancy vacation to Hawaii wouldn't have been more enjoyable. So for me, it's no problem. And when the script is right and the story is there, I it's I completely agree with Herzog on this.
00;51;56;01 - 00;52;05;04
Cullen
And I think even then it's it's you know, one of the final things he says in this this is kind of, you know, what is your excuse even if you don't have ten K.
00;52;05;23 - 00;52;06;05
Clark
What is your.
00;52;06;05 - 00;52;14;16
Cullen
Excuse right now with the technology that's available for not going out? And even, you know, there are a lot of movies I've made that will probably never be seen by anybody.
00;52;15;10 - 00;52;16;02
Clark
It's okay.
00;52;16;06 - 00;52;18;19
Cullen
Still, you know, pick up a camera, go out, go outside.
00;52;18;19 - 00;52;26;23
Clark
And Herzog's last few films, I don't think I've ever been seen by anybody. I mean, it's so it's you know, you've got to learn somehow exactly what.
00;52;26;23 - 00;52;52;22
Cullen
Are the excuses of of not of not. And that was kind of what again what I coming out of high school when I when I graduated was kind of thinking like, you know, I'm not going to film school, so I'm going to be working even if it's not getting paid, even if it's not like working a job, I'm going to be with my camera as much as I can be, just shooting everything and just learning that, learning that experience and stuff like that.
00;52;53;04 - 00;52;57;22
Clark
Do you ever do you put your camera like on the other side of the bed? Like, do you lay it on the pillow?
00;52;57;22 - 00;53;01;08
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah, it's my camera on right now.
00;53;01;25 - 00;53;02;22
Clark
I love it.
00;53;02;27 - 00;53;03;15
Cullen
My webcam.
00;53;03;29 - 00;53;05;09
Clark
I love it, man. I love it.
00;53;05;09 - 00;53;07;20
Cullen
All right. I got a wig on it right now, but awesome.
00;53;07;20 - 00;53;27;18
Clark
I want to see some pictures. We'll get a post of pictures to the to the website for the podcast of that one. Awesome. Well, I think, you know, money lost film, gained experience, gained adventures had I mean, I think this is what life's all about. So. All right. Well, on that note, I think we're about to wrap it up here.
00;53;27;18 - 00;53;33;04
Clark
Come on. Do you have any last, final thoughts or anything that you you've expressed at all now?
00;53;33;05 - 00;53;34;16
Cullen
I think I've got it all out now.
00;53;34;16 - 00;53;35;04
Clark
All right.
00;53;35;09 - 00;53;35;14
Cullen
Well.
00;53;35;28 - 00;54;01;06
Clark
All right. Well, everybody, we hope that you enjoyed our today on Herzog's Masterclass Lesson five about financing films. We wish you all the best in whatever projects you're trying to finance right now. And and yeah, keep shooting. All right. Until next time where we all cover lesson six. Everybody, have a wonderful week. Colin, thank you so much, as always.
00;54;01;15 - 00;54;01;29
Cullen
Thank you.
00;54;02;07 - 00;54;04;20
Clark
All right. Until next time, we'll see you on the flip side.