Cullen
Hello and welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I'm Cullen McFater and I'm joined once again by Clark Coffey from Sunny California.
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Clark
Sunny and Smokey.
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Cullen
Yeah, I guess it is Smokey these days. Yeah.
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Clark
Yeah. Unfortunately, unfortunately.
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Cullen
Yeah. So today we're going to be talking about lesson six in Werner Herzog's masterclass, which is all about negotiation skills, both with, you know, financers and actors and things like that. Just kind of general skills that you should have going into a film career, but also perhaps something you can take away even if you aren't going into film.
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Cullen
There's there's always gonna be negotiations in life. So absolutely, these skills are kind of universal.
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Clark
And as always, Werner Herzog remains controversial as he is in many of his statements about filmmaking and art. He has certainly doesn't let us down here. Definitely has some potentially controversial comments about working on handshakes versus contracts, etc., etc.. We'll get into that stuff. But but yeah, so negotiation skills and right off the bat, Herzog mentions that you should be candid.
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Clark
Well, that's yes, I think I would definitely agree with that. What do you think, Cohen? Should you lie when you're negotiating or should.
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Cullen
Oh, always. Absolutely. You should tell them that you got like six other backers who are each putting.
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Clark
In very well. You know, we laugh, but of course. But of course, this happens all the time. Yeah, unfortunately people are. And maybe sometimes it's that they are, you know, excited or passionate about the project. And, you know, best case scenario is a little bit of exaggeration. Kind of gets in there. Of course, sometimes people are just flat out dishonest and do anything they want to get some things done.
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Clark
But this is definitely not controversial to me. I certainly agree with Herzog. I think that if you went longevity in this business, then it certainly behooves you to be honest. I'm curious, have you ever had any experiences where somebody was dishonest? Maybe it was like a project, somebody was wanting to hire you or or maybe a, you know, a collaborator or somebody?
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Clark
I'm just curious if you had ever experienced anything.
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Cullen
I wouldn't say like explicitly dishonest. Yeah, but I think a lot of people, like you said, they get kind of swept up in the passion of it. And so they'll exaggerate for.
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Clark
Heights that.
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Cullen
Maybe aren't. And, you know, sometimes that can be kind of harmless, sometimes it can kind of get someone into trouble.
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Clark
No question.
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Cullen
Later on. But, you know, I've had I've had the even just something like, you know, we're really hoping to make a return on this so you'll probably get paid. And then, of course, that doesn't, you know, always go into those things. I'm always kind of like, yeah, I'm probably you're probably going to make nothing on me.
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Clark
Well, and that's, you know, and that's definitely my experience too. I mean, their deferred payment is a is a very popular type of payment here. You know, at our level where we're, you know, in the beginnings of our careers as filmmakers, I think many people have probably experienced that. I've certainly experienced that on the actor side when I was primarily pursuing acting.
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Clark
I can't tell you how many gigs I had deferred payment, but I've even had production producer roles that were similarly structured. And yeah.
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Cullen
I've heard horror stories too. I mean, we all have where it's like, yes, absolute chaos and things like that.
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Clark
Yeah. And it's, you know, and there and we weren't, we're not going to get into the super nitty gritty of, of these kind of things. But boy, you know, I mean there are a million different ways to structure payment. And a lot of those ways, I would say probably 999,999 of them could leave you with no pay in the future.
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Clark
Yeah, but, but yeah, I you know and so I think it just maybe the take home here is, you know, be honest yourself. And of course there's a lot of different reasons why you should do that, you know, to be a decent human being. But, but be, you know, be careful because people, you know, even honest people, they get excited and passionate.
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Clark
And, you know, it's extremely difficult to get a film made. And sometimes people start to stretch that reality, just a hair to try to to get it made. So so definitely, you know, I think it's always, always be careful. Now it's kind of now we go into Herzog talks about attorneys and utilizing attorneys to do deals. So here we've just said, you know, there can definitely be a lot of pitfalls when it when when you're negotiating a contract, Herzog says stay away from attorneys.
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Clark
What do you think?
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Cullen
COHEN Yeah, I mean, I can totally see why someone like Werner Herzog would want to stay away from attorneys. Sure. I think that there's there's like a level to that in which they can kind of, you know, I think there's always going to be an issue with someone who fundamentally doesn't necessarily understand the process being involved in that process.
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Cullen
And most entertaining attorneys understand filmmaking to a certain level. But but yeah, you know, there's there's there's always going to be a little bit of communication kind of headroom there. But I also think like for your own safety, I would always recommend just even, you know, sitting down with an entertainment lawyer or even a family lawyer just to not I mean, I don't mean like a divorce lawyer, but your family.
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Clark
To have understood that.
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Cullen
And just getting them to read over a contract or something like that, because the.
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Clark
Attorneys, at least an attorney that is at least skilled at reading and understanding contracts is.
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Cullen
Sometimes you can just get into a thing where there's legal jargon in there. And, you know, as much as you always want to expect the best intentions of everybody, there are times when people will intentionally throw things in contracts to to basically screw you over. Yeah. And to to you know.
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Clark
I mean, I think it's interesting to point out. I mean, you know, I think there are levels in which I completely agree with Herzog, and there are kind of some other levels where I don't know that I would operate in the exact same way myself. I mean, you know, you got to look at where Herzog is in his career, too.
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Clark
I mean, we're talking about somebody who has had a tremendous amount of experience making films over numerous decades. He is, for the most part, highly regarded and has built up a network in the industry of people that he has worked with many times before. You know, So he's probably in a different position than a lot of people listening to this podcast.
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Clark
If you, you know, are in fact interested in pursuing a career as a filmmaker, you're probably not so well established. And so, you know, that's definitely a difference to consider. I mean, I think on the one hand I get where he's coming from. It's like, you know, I have had relationships like film, relationships, projects stalled for a year or more because the the the contracts were just so complicated, overwrought, and it just caused fear and confusion.
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Clark
And so, you know, on the one hand, I really believe simple, plain language and short are definitely better. You really can't kill an otherwise potentially exciting, interesting project with just, you know, a just a ton of bureaucracy and legal fees. I mean, you completely smother a project with that. And, you know, attorneys tend to come from that angle, right?
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Clark
I mean, that's what they've studied. That's what they spent their whole life doing. It's like, you know, they're not doing their job unless they've got a 60 page contract where every single possible contingency of outcome is, you know, hashed out to the nth degree. I mean, that can definitely just befuddle and confuse a project. So on the one hand, I get that, but on the other hand, I mean, I kind of agree with you that it's not a bad thing to have an attorney, at least to look over a contract, especially for a significant project Now.
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Clark
I mean, it's like that. You've got to take that into account, too, right? If it's like you and a handful of friends making sure.
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Cullen
You bring your attorney.
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Clark
Along, I mean, come on. Yeah. Yeah, but but I mean, but if there's actual real if there's significant money or time involved or both, right? I mean, especially if you're going to be investing in somebody else's project, if you're a producer and you're putting money into it, I think, you know, the or if you're putting a substantial amount of time in it and the project has the potential to actually get distribution, has the potential to actually be seen, I mean, you definitely want to protect your interests, your your investment, protect your credit and how you're represented and what kind of creative input and control you have.
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Clark
Mm hmm. Yeah.
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Cullen
And not to speak for Herzog, but I think I think I can see kind of where he's going with this point, which is more of that, you know, during creative negotiation. Yeah, during, during points where you're going back and forth about about decisions that you are going to make as the, you know, let's say you're being hired as director, those things I can understand why you wouldn't necessarily want like at that point you're just kind of thinking let's let's talk about the picture and then we can get, you know, the legal stuff out of the way later at a set point.
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Cullen
But I can understand why you wouldn't necessarily want to concern yourself with with legal jargon and all that at the beginning of the process or even just in an initial, you know, before anything signed. But I think, again, on the flip side of that is it's a very administer catchy phrase. But I think on the flip side of that, that phrase of, you know, don't negotiate with an attorney present or whatever, I would say that definitely when you're signing something, you want at least somebody to read that over for you, I guess.
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Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as as you said, you can get into some sticky situations, right?
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Clark
And it could be, you know, and it's not even necessarily that somebody is out to get you and you're being actively screwed in a contract, but you could just not realize that you could have had potentially more, you know, more input in the creative process. Maybe you you know, or just to make sure that your credit is properly represented when it's all said and done, that you're able to put is represented properly, you know, in the in the credits for it or you know, that your investment is properly represented and accounted for.
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Clark
And yeah, it's, it's you know and it's funny like I have you mentioned, you know, worrying about these things too early but I can't tell you how many times, just countless times that a what should have been a creative conversation has been completely cut off by somebody being, you know, darn near paranoid about the legality of something. Yeah.
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Clark
Like, yeah, I mean, it's like, come on, you know, especially at this level, it's like, you know, you have to sign three if it's like, you know, somebody who's who has no credits and is like never produced a film in their life and they're like, You need to sign five in days before I can even show you. You know, the script.
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Clark
And I, you know, I'm like, Oh, it's.
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Cullen
Funny that you mentioned that because I think that's a very film school thing. Oh, is that so? I actually worked on and it was an it was a great I mean, if any of these people that I worked on this project with that I actually enjoyed the project, enjoy the people very much. But they were all students at a local film school here.
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Cullen
One of the more.
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Clark
Good ones here.
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Cullen
And yeah, and I have people that work there too, that are in my circle, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but no, the they were so they were all students at this film school and I was acting in this, I was acting this with a friend. So, you know, whenever I'm acting I, even though I do have that experience of behind the camera, I really try and siphon myself off and I go, No, I'm the actor for this.
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Cullen
I'm not going to make anything, any sort of comments on anything else. I'm just going to say, sit here and do my job. Yeah, but I can remember that even though around here, you know, just outside of Toronto and mostly within Toronto too, you don't actually need permits to shoot in public spaces. The only time you need permits is if something you were doing is disrupting public traffic.
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Cullen
So whether that's walking traffic or like car traffic, that's really I mean, there are there are specialized. What about more buggy traffic? Oh, no, no, that's that's we yeah, we've got anti Amish discrimination laws here. But, but no we, we so you really don't and especially when you're out of the city like you know the worst that'll happen in the city is a cop will come up and ask you you know what's going on and you kind of explain it away and it's fine out of the city, nothing like it's in the suburbs.
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Cullen
Nobody will ever care. But when we were shooting at this this hiking trail wants public property and there's like train tracks along. And that's why we were shooting there is because there's this I, I can't quite remember what the idea of the story was, but there were these train tracks and something had to do with the train tracks.
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Cullen
And we were we were far away from them.
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Clark
Wrong side of the train. Yeah.
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Cullen
Yeah. Very, very spooky. But I remember any, any time a person would walk by the entire crew and they all went to this film school, I was again, I was not at that film school. I would pack up all the gear, put it all in their bags, and then sit. And it was like any time anybody would walk by, whether it was a car driving by or and and there was this whole contingency plan of like if somebody asks us what we're doing, here's our here's our, like teacher contact that we have to tell them.
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Cullen
And we're just making a tiny short film for this university or this college. And I just remember sitting there and again, I was talent, so I just kind of sat there and didn't say anything, but I was just like, I can't imagine the paranoia there of like, you know what, you kind of I always say to a reasonable degree and obviously not compromising safety ever, but like, what is the worst that can happen in terms of just stuff like that?
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Cullen
Yeah. Like if someone walks by and asks us what we're doing there and says, Well, you got to leave, the worst thing that would happen is, is, you know, the very worst case scenario there is a police would show up and ask us to leave. Like that's that's really the very worst scenario. So it's like, is it worth which would also never happen because technically you're there's no law that prohibits what you're doing.
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Cullen
So you know just read up on the local laws and kind of don't worry about that stuff. But yeah, I do agree with you that there are times when it's like it really impedes progress, how paranoid people can get about and that, you know, that goes for location permits to everything from, as you said, like I've got to sign you to get you to sign an NDA before you read the script, stuff like that.
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Cullen
You know, it's like at the end of the day, if I'm sending someone a script, maybe I'll, you know, the most real stake I'll put in it is just doing the watermark with their name on it. So at least if I know that it's being distributed, it was distributed by them. Yeah, but even then that's a pretty rare thing.
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Cullen
Most people I send my scripts to, I can I can trust on a pretty basic level.
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Clark
Yeah. Yeah. And I think again, it's like, you know, obviously people at different levels in their career and, you know, I think different levels of security, so to speak. Yeah, might apply. But I've just, you know, again I've seen it, it yes. And assuming here that most of this audience would be, you know, if you've if you're taking the masterclass lessons, maybe you're just a fan of Herzog's or but likely you're pursuing a you know, a career as a filmmaker and you're likely, you know, near ish the beginning of your career.
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Clark
I mean, yeah, it's I've just seen so many times where people are just so terrified. And maybe you're right, you know, I hadn't thought about that, but it seems like the vast majority of those people were film school students, at least at one point. And not having been one myself, I'm not quite sure what the curriculum might be, but I'm sure they probably do go over quite a bit of how to protect yourself legally and and cover your own.
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Clark
But but yeah, it's just been sometimes shocking to me how people are so terrified to share a script or, you know, discuss certain aspects of what a creative relationship or partnership might look like.
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Cullen
And you know, what I find weird, too, is working on small projects and like, you know, personal projects are things that you kind of have complete creative control or you a group of friends have completely creative control about. And then the people that are constantly concerned about credit that that are, you know, never stop it. One thing changes in the production and it's like, am I still getting credit for this or are you getting credit for that now?
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Cullen
Yeah, and it's I always think that that's that's so funny because it's like, you know, to me I don't worry about credit until the movie's done. And then I look back at the work that everyone's done and I credit accordingly. That's, that's, that's kind of how credit goes for me. I mean, of course there are instances when in advance things are signed about certain credits.
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Cullen
But, you know, on a general note of like indie filmmaking or very small scale low to no budget filmmaking, usually that's just kind of how it works is you do the job and people might take on multiple roles that they weren't necessarily signing on to do. But they, you know, they actually kind of jump into those roles and then you credit them accordingly afterwards.
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Cullen
But I think that's so funny that there's some people who are so, so concerned about, you know, you're steadfast in making sure that it all moments of of production that you know exactly who's getting credited for what. And well, you.
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Clark
Know, and, you know, and just to say, you know, played a little bit, you know, a little bit of the other side of the coin here, I mean, this is one area where I think contract. And when I say contract, I mean you can have just a page, you know, contract doesn't have to be some 60 page long thing filled with legally is I think, you know, it's one of the things Herzog says here.
00;17;03;10 - 00;17;28;04
Clark
You know, the longer it gets, the less likely that you're going to actually make a film. Yeah, and I agree with that. To a certain point, especially at these kind of more, I don't want to say amateur, but kind of beginning of career phases. But but you can completely I mean, I think, you know, some people I think are paranoid about that maybe for reason, you know because they've done a lot of work that wasn't represented in the credits on a previous film.
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Clark
I've seen that happen myself other times, people are just, you know, skeptical or afraid in general, or maybe they're, you know, hyper focused on what their credits are going to be. But, you know, oftentimes, too, you know, that's all people are getting out of working on a production at a lower level. They're not getting paid. And that credit, they're hoping will will add to their resume and leads.
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Cullen
To the exposure pay now.
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Clark
So I guess I think kind of sympathize a little bit. But those are things I mean, I've done that myself. Like I've got a documentary feature that I'm in pre-production on here, and we unfortunately did spinner wheels for quite a bit of time and we started to go down that route of having to convoluted a contract to designate that how, you know, we were going to work together at this stage where we're it's a biography and so we're working on, you know, ownership and position and all these kind of things.
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Clark
And I just, you know, I just very simply in plain language, put exactly what I wanted my my credit to be. And this new work that I'm going to do and this is what I want my credit to be, which it appropriate to the you know, I can't say as a producer, I can't say I want to be named director in the credits.
00;18;39;05 - 00;18;51;07
Clark
Of course. But just to have that in writing, it's very clear it's up front. These are my this is my responsibilities. This is what I'm going to get paid for completing those responsibilities. And this is what my credit's going to be, very simply.
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Cullen
And that's I mean, that's exactly what I mean, is that, that on a very basic level. Yeah, I, I totally that was kind of what I had actually recently just done two for this, this feature is that, you know, very up front. I just kind of said here's the here's what I will be doing, here's the roles that I'll be taking on.
00;19;09;07 - 00;19;31;02
Cullen
And me and the producer team were very clear that we also didn't want at any point, we didn't want the financials to compromise anything with with creative decisions that, you know, if there was a financier coming in that was offering, you know, an ample sum of money that we wouldn't want to compromise any of those creative decisions. But, you know, again, it was kind of exactly like you said.
00;19;31;02 - 00;19;42;23
Cullen
It was that upfront. We just kind of had a piece of paper. Yeah. And said, okay, so I'm directing, I'm EP and here's the roles that I'll be carrying out and kind of things like that. Just very simply, very simply.
00;19;42;28 - 00;20;04;15
Clark
But you know, it, it, it kind of, but it, I think it forces or it should. I mean, I think ideally when you're doing this, what it's forcing you to do is be very clear and very specific in your communication of expectation. And whether you put that on a piece of paper or not, that is such an important aspect of, you know, of creating a partnership, setting out to make a film.
00;20;04;28 - 00;20;30;28
Clark
I mean, and through every stage I think just to kind of reiterate here, sometimes it seems like common sense, but I've seen so many times where this doesn't actually happen in practice. To be very clear, you know, communicate well with the people that you're going into business with, create clear expectations of what's being asked from you and of what you know, of what your responsibilities are, but also of what your your powers.
00;20;30;28 - 00;20;40;12
Clark
I guess, you know, your what does that give you then, if I'm doing X, what do I get for Y? And that doesn't always have to be money, but it's, you know, some level of creative input or control or acceptance.
00;20;40;21 - 00;20;44;15
Cullen
That's super important hierarchy to establishing these things.
00;20;44;18 - 00;21;09;11
Clark
That said, I've just seen you know, where people have not set expectations properly and you've got two different people who are so on different pages of your expectations of what their role in the film is going to be and what they're going to get out of it when it's done. And and the two people didn't realize going into it that they were on such different pages and you get halfway into the film or, you know, you come to some kind of milestone and you're already in the thick of it.
00;21;09;17 - 00;21;13;22
Clark
And now these two people realize that they're just a completely different pages.
00;21;13;22 - 00;21;31;05
Cullen
Oh, I've had that experience on things that I've worked on, like I've had experience and things that I've done. I actually, you know, for a little anecdote, the Western that I did last year and I was so initially we were a friend of mine and I who who's still a really good friend of mine, co-wrote.
00;21;31;12 - 00;21;33;05
Clark
And we know you guys survived.
00;21;33;07 - 00;21;53;11
Cullen
Yes, exactly. But we co-wrote and then kind of stepped up and said, okay, let's co-direct it. And basically what it was was that so I was going to be kind of the director behind the camera doing most of the cinematography as well. And then he was he was co-directing and also playing not the main character, but a sort of supporting role.
00;21;53;18 - 00;21;56;28
Clark
And that's so tricky. The character thing is tricky, I mean, and.
00;21;56;29 - 00;22;14;09
Cullen
Well, but that's exactly what we found, was that we we got, you know, it was like the third day of shooting and it wasn't explicit arguments like nothing ever got hotheaded, but it was just very, very fundamental disagreements on certain elements of like, I'd be setting up a shot and you know, he would come over and sort of disagree with the placement of the camera or something like that.
00;22;14;09 - 00;22;27;23
Cullen
And yeah, so it became to a point where, you know, we sort of halted filming for a few days and had a phone call and I sort of said, I think what would do best for this is if, you know, and again, it wasn't supposed to be a power grab as much as it can kind of seem like that.
00;22;27;23 - 00;22;31;09
Cullen
But I sort of said, why don't I just take kind of the sole director's position on this?
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Clark
Yeah.
00;22;32;00 - 00;22;49;18
Cullen
And then you can, you know, when it comes to the writing, you can totally, if we have any, any scripts, revisions or things like that, you're absolutely involved in that. But when it comes to like the on set kind of hierarchy there, it's going to really simplify things, especially since we have such different visions and it was the first time we'd ever really like co-directed something like that.
00;22;49;18 - 00;23;10;00
Cullen
And we realized that, yeah, that's the ideas for how we play out. Scenes are so different, and what you'll see with most co-directing teams usually is that they specialize in different areas like the Coens. One of them is super into, you know, working with the actors and and kind of and all that side of production. And the other one is much more into the DP, the cinematography, technical stuff.
00;23;10;00 - 00;23;16;13
Cullen
And same with the Lord, Phil Lord and Chris Miller, like most big director duos that co-directed.
00;23;16;25 - 00;23;17;21
Clark
Division, but a.
00;23;17;21 - 00;23;36;25
Cullen
Very clean division. And I think that and but at the same time of having a clean division, they have faith in each other that they'll fulfill the vision that they each share. Whereas what I found was that we didn't share a vision. We had a very different idea as to what the what the esthetic and what the, you know, the you just don't a general, what with the look and the feel of the movie should be.
00;23;36;25 - 00;23;55;15
Clark
But you can see I mean, had you guys before you even started shooting, had you communicated those expectations much more clearly, you wouldn't have had to have paused, shooting and know, of course, depending on the size and scope of the production, you know, you know, having to take a couple of days to sort that out when you're in the middle of it could be just devastating.
00;23;55;18 - 00;24;11;21
Cullen
So it could be it could be the final blow. Yeah. And I think that I mean, I'm glad that it happened on something like that where we were really in creative control of the project because it it like I'm actually quite frankly glad it happened period, because it taught me a lot about, you know, I'm, I just don't think I want to co-direct.
00;24;11;21 - 00;24;30;07
Cullen
I think that that's not my thing. And I'm glad that I learned that. But it also, again, going into this feature kind of taught me exactly that, that I really want explicit. And I think when I when I kind of meant to to sort of clarify what I meant before, one that I like, I don't mean to say that I don't care about credit.
00;24;31;26 - 00;24;50;14
Cullen
What I Moore meant was that I care about duties and tasks. And I think this is as much in line with what you're saying. I care about duties and tasks being carried out by the people who are assigned those roles, and so that when you get on set, you know what you're doing, you know where you know where to go, what to do, what to set up, and kind of how to prepare for the shoot.
00;24;51;23 - 00;25;12;15
Cullen
When I kind of don't really care about is is, you know, at least especially when things are so tense and production and stuff is just this like constant worrying of where the person's name is going to appear in the credits and things like that, which again, as you said, I can I can sympathize with when you're working on something with someone that you might not know very well, then of course you want that credit.
00;25;12;15 - 00;25;28;07
Cullen
But if it's if it's, you know, if it's I've got a group of three friends and me, so four of us total that that have for the past two or so years been making movies together almost nonstop and kind of trying to build up to this feature, which is what we're at now. And so we all know each other.
00;25;28;07 - 00;25;44;26
Cullen
We all know that there's not going to be a sudden shift in credit at the end like the last hour. And that, you know, I'm going to lose my my writer's credit or whatever. So that's kind of the point where I'm just sort of like, well, you know, let's just sit down and worry about the actual production aspect of these things right now.
00;25;44;26 - 00;25;57;03
Cullen
And then and then later on, once once we kind of get through the thick of it, we can we can reexamine those credits, even though they're already written out. We've got them written out, but we can reexamine them if anything's changed. Yeah. And kind of go that way. But well.
00;25;57;03 - 00;25;59;01
Clark
And it's like you trust these people, right? And this is.
00;25;59;01 - 00;25;59;22
Cullen
Yeah, exactly.
00;26;00;03 - 00;26;28;06
Clark
You know, And Herzog says, you know, doing a deal with the handshake, I mean, what's what's implied kind of behind that statement is a big, huge, giant pile of trust, mutual trust and huge, you know, And so he doesn't speak to that specifically. But what we can here for just a second, I don't think he means go make a handshake, deal with a total stranger that you've never worked with before and you have no idea who this person is and you've not vetted them and, you know, etc., etc., ad nauseum.
00;26;28;18 - 00;26;55;23
Clark
You know, he's talking about doing a handshake deal with somebody that he and he clearly trust. These people. So, you know, and this is no matter what stage of your career you're in, this is well within your power to do to research somebody, to take a look at what their track record is, and especially depending on the scope, you know, certainly if they're asking you to invest money or invest a huge amount of your time, I mean, you've got to do your due diligence.
00;26;55;23 - 00;27;19;03
Clark
And I'll say this and this this is from this is from experience for me, for sure. I used to think that I was a really good judge of character. And people would tell me, you're a really great judge of character, Clark. And I thought, I mean, I like the kind of it was an almost a pillar of my like how I saw myself.
00;27;19;15 - 00;27;29;15
Clark
And I think a lot of people kind of feel I'm likely I think if you asked, you know, 100 people, hey, do you feel like you're a good judge of character? I'm going to guess probably like 95 people are going to say they are.
00;27;29;25 - 00;27;30;02
Cullen
Mm hmm.
00;27;30;07 - 00;27;49;26
Clark
Yeah. And we have all these kind of intuitive keys that we kind of use. We think somebody is lying or not lying. Well, I will offer this this little piece to people out there. It's very likely. Matter of fact, it's almost a certainty that you are not as good a judge of character as you think you are.
00;27;50;06 - 00;27;50;16
Cullen
Mm hmm.
00;27;50;24 - 00;28;16;11
Clark
And that's because humans are not nearly as good a judge of characters. This intuitive kind of response that we have to people that that really convinces us it's very convincing to you inside your mind, inside your heart. But we aren't nearly not nearly as good at predicting people's behavior by just our intuitive sense of who they are. And this has been borne out in study after study after study after study.
00;28;16;23 - 00;28;39;14
Clark
And I would offer this suggestion to people to actually look at track record, to actually look at what is this person's history of work. Have they ripped off other people? Have they you know, are there people out there complaining that their work environment was crap or that they were horrible to get along with, etc., etc.? That's what's important.
00;28;40;09 - 00;29;02;04
Clark
And and sometimes, of course, that track record doesn't exist if people are just starting out. But, you know, inevitably there are people that they've worked with their previous projects. Don't hesitate to talk to those people, to reach out to them, to see what they're because that that's the only way to predict a person's kind of future performance is by looking at their past performance.
00;29;02;04 - 00;29;23;07
Clark
So as, Oh yeah, if you're getting ready to get in bed with somebody on a major project and it's going to take a lot of your time or your money or whatever the, you know, your reputation, you're always putting your reputation on line when you put yourself with a group of people to work on a project. I strongly I could not more strongly recommend that you look at the major primary collaborators that you'll be working with.
00;29;23;16 - 00;29;26;28
Clark
Look at their track record. So and the.
00;29;26;28 - 00;29;44;02
Cullen
Film industry is such a small world that the likelihood that you actually know somebody who has worked with that person before is actually really high. I've noticed that every time I get a job with somebody or I'm offered a position with somebody that I know, even if it's not like a very, you know, close friend or something, I'll know somebody that that has worked with them in the past.
00;29;44;02 - 00;29;54;29
Cullen
And so I can have a very candid conversation about, you know, what what was the working environment like? What was the you know, even something as like how prompt were the payments if there's payment involved? Absolutely. That's so important because that.
00;29;54;29 - 00;29;55;25
Clark
Is so important.
00;29;56;09 - 00;30;19;21
Cullen
I just said experiences before and then the payment didn't come for, you know, three months of me prodding to get that payment after. And I have no interest in working with those people again even though the experience it was were great. It's like, you know, not to say that I'm a stickler for, you know, I got to get my money back, but there just becomes a point where it's like, are you are you so focused on your own project that you're now undermining, you know, hefty efforts and bait?
00;30;19;21 - 00;30;40;02
Clark
Yeah, you have. Yeah. And don't feel bad about that either. I mean, you know, you even kind of, you know, hedged a little bit. You're like, hey, it's not like I'm, you know, just consumed by payments not way I do this. Yeah and I think we've all said that at some point or another I've had payment delayed as well, etc., etc. And you're like, I don't want to be that person who's like, seems like I'm only in it for the money or something like that.
00;30;40;02 - 00;31;04;00
Clark
But I always see this as like a sign of respect, right? I mean, unless there's been some substantial, you know, something has happened with production, you know, nobody's getting paid, you know, like, you know, something substantial. But I mean, barring extremely, extremely rare circumstance, if you're if this if your side of the bargain is not being fulfilled by the people that you've made that contract with, that this is just pure disrespect, you know, not going to work.
00;31;04;00 - 00;31;19;07
Cullen
And I've got that written right into the, you know, the contracts that I get any clients to work with is is, you know, I've got to think about new clients. I get half upfront. Oh, yeah. And then after the fact, you know, after the payment, it's, it's, you know, 30 days is the next thing. Yeah.
00;31;19;12 - 00;31;35;28
Clark
Let's put this in context for people. Let's talk about this. So what you're talking about now, correct me if I'm wrong, is you're like you're video like you're videographer or director for hire side of your. Yes. Right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So so we both have experience with this just for the people out there to get some idea of our context.
00;31;35;28 - 00;31;54;23
Clark
So now we're kind of talking a little bit less about making, you know, feature narrative films or documentary films. And now we're kind of talking about a gun for hire doing industrials, advertise video commercials, that kind of thing, you know? So I have never worked in that capacity without a contract ever.
00;31;55;04 - 00;31;55;25
Cullen
Absolutely.
00;31;55;25 - 00;32;18;05
Clark
Yeah, ever. And I would strongly you know, and of course, this is a little bit this is different. Herzog is not exactly talking about this kind of work, but what we can speak to it a little bit here. Yeah. I mean, I've never worked as a videographer or as a director for marketing type content without a contract. Now they're quite simple, but they always designate how much I'm getting paid.
00;32;18;19 - 00;32;35;24
Clark
They always designate what happens if I don't get paid and what amount of time. It always very specifically designates exactly what is being asked of me and exactly what the client is getting and exactly when they're getting it and how much that cost. I mean, to.
00;32;36;03 - 00;32;56;07
Cullen
In any caveats of of you know, I've got caveats in there for any broken equipment. And you know what things like that. And I think that the other thing, too is what I've learned is that and then if I can give any advice to somebody who's starting out, it is it is never rude to the other person to vouch for yourself.
00;32;56;07 - 00;32;57;21
Clark
Tell us. And so that.
00;32;58;02 - 00;33;10;27
Cullen
So I think a lot of people going into it think that, you know, if I so in my contract now I've got a thing that says, you know, after 30 days, if the payment isn't received, then a 1.5% compounding interest rate will be added. Wow.
00;33;11;05 - 00;33;14;14
Clark
You're so I think mine's like ten.
00;33;14;14 - 00;33;19;09
Cullen
I should I should up my shot, my prices. But even then it's rates have been going down.
00;33;19;09 - 00;33;26;19
Clark
So you know you're probably it's like you know now with rates like the feds got it at zero here in the U.S.. Yeah maybe you're more in line with reality money.
00;33;27;02 - 00;33;43;11
Cullen
But I think that's the the thing is, is, you know, you think of that like when I was first starting out, I was putting that in there. I was like, oh, does it sound like I'm threatening the person? But no, no, no, no. It is never. I think that a lot of people that are starting out, they for sounding rude or they they fit exactly.
00;33;43;11 - 00;34;04;13
Cullen
And it was the same thing when I was working as a bartender. You know, if my if my boss said, Hey, can you work late tonight, I would say, yeah, here's here's what I want to to extend my hours there. This is what I will be getting for that. And it's again, it's negotiation. Most of the time, those people, if they are if they have the money to pay you, they will pay you and they won't have any you know, they won't go.
00;34;04;13 - 00;34;24;02
Cullen
That person was rude because they asked for more payment because you just have to prove that you're worth that payment. But again, it's it's it's just one of the things that like I've just noticed that a lot of people are to kind of vouch for themselves in that way and to and to really set set the bar there to a to a point where you're going, this is what my terms are.
00;34;24;02 - 00;34;29;20
Cullen
And, you know, if those if everything goes well, then we'll have a great time, then it'll be fine and we'll have a great working relationship.
00;34;29;26 - 00;34;54;19
Clark
This is a good point, Colin. This is a really good point, you know? Herzog does it again that he doesn't speak to this specifically or directly, but this is a really good point. And, you know, to touch on is that, you know, you do have to value yourself regardless of where you're at in your career. It's really important to value yourself, whether you're an actor, director, writer, DP, whatever position you are on, set it.
00;34;54;19 - 00;35;09;27
Clark
It's so important to value yourself and it's okay. Not only is it okay, but it's I mean, if you're a professional, it's absolutely expected that you dictate the terms at which you want to be a part of this project. People will.
00;35;09;27 - 00;35;11;27
Cullen
Usually, weirdly enough, respect you more for.
00;35;11;27 - 00;35;42;19
Clark
Doing stuff. Absolutely. Yeah, of course. I mean, anybody who's worth working with, anybody who is worth working with will respect you. Matter of fact, if people have a problem and what of course, we're talking about dictating appropriate, reasonable terms. We're not talking about dictating ridiculousness. You know, if this is like your first, you're like, you know, dictating that you want a trailer for, like, you know, an RFI short film, then you know, you're going to be cast in as like a background.
00;35;43;03 - 00;36;07;00
Clark
Come on. You know, it's like within reason. But I mean, to, to be very clear and assertive, right? Politely assertive. It should be respected. And it's a good sign that you're not working with good people if they have a problem with that, If they have a problem with you saying, Hey, this is this is what I'm doing, this is what I expect in return, this is how I want to be treated.
00;36;07;05 - 00;36;25;19
Cullen
And being able to negotiate on the floor again with, like I said, with the caveats thing, where it's, you know, at TIFF last year when I was doing camera work for a TV network here, I remember I had a daily pay and one and that was a eight hour pay. It was no camera. What the day was. It was it was 11 hours, sorry, the 11 hour day.
00;36;27;10 - 00;36;49;08
Cullen
And I got paid a certain amount for those 11 hours. And there was one night it was the wrap night where we had to basically the whole way that TIFF works is that there's one hotel downtown that all of the media is done in. So like all the interviews, all that are all done in this hotel. So like every news organization, every entertainment, you know, entertainment, tonight's there, blah, blah, blah, you know, IMDB, they've got their suite set up, right?
00;36;49;21 - 00;37;03;16
Cullen
So it is basically this big building. And of course, when you're trying to tear that down at the end and you're trying to strike the set at the end of the week, it's going to take a while because you have to get everything from you to use the service elevators. You got to get everything out, you got to load the truck, blah, blah, blah.
00;37;03;16 - 00;37;21;14
Cullen
There's lots of trips up and down and stuff like that. And so I ended up being there about double the time that I was that I was being paid be there. And, you know, I very, again, calmly and respectfully kind of went up to the producer afterwards and I said, Hey, this will I'll likely invoice you for for these extra hours.
00;37;22;12 - 00;37;40;19
Cullen
And then we've negotiated a price and it was fine and there was no there was no, like weird, you know, harsh talk or any fight. They just kind of said, Yeah, of course. And we sat down and we negotiated what that. And I wound up getting paid essentially double what I was making because, which was that was the hourly it was exactly appropriate.
00;37;40;19 - 00;38;03;25
Clark
Right. You know, so I think that's a good example. Yeah. And so it's I think when you come from a place of, you know, you value yourself and you have, you know, a bit of self confidence and you're reasonable, then this is likely going to be the outcome. And again, it's and if somebody if he would have replied to you in a way that would have been completely dismissive or what I mean then you just know, okay, I check this person off my list.
00;38;03;25 - 00;38;20;22
Clark
I'm never working with them again, you know, don't deal. And then over time, you you build up a network of people who have treated you well and you've got along with and then, you know, this is likely what Herzog has done, right? Yeah, it takes time. But absolutely.
00;38;20;22 - 00;38;45;08
Cullen
So I mean, and much in line with what we were talking about last time, too. That goes for when you're in charge, too. I was very clear on the outside of this features that anybody on set I'd like them to be in the very least compensated for their time and not a honorarium or gas money or what some sort of monetary compensation for their time plus points in in their contracts of, you know, if we recoup costs that they they get a percentage of that recoup.
00;38;45;09 - 00;39;06;10
Clark
Good, good point. Good point. You know, so as a leader, so we've a little bit we've kind of been talking about if you're being brought on to a project by somebody else. But that's a really good point. COHEN If you're the if you're the head honcho, if you're a lead in the project and you're bringing people into your project, you know, do not shortchange this process.
00;39;06;17 - 00;39;34;18
Clark
You don't have to, you know, depending on scale, you don't have to overly formalize it again, you don't have to go to a 60 page contract with attorneys and everything. But, you know, I think the people that you bring on board are going to really, really respect you for being clear in your communication and being assertive and direct and, you know, even, you know, putting a few just putting expectations and putting returns on paper can be very simple.
00;39;35;00 - 00;40;01;13
Clark
But I really feel like if you're looking for a way to immediately, you know, step up your game for, you know, how how professional you're coming off and how much respect you have with your cast and crew. There is a darn good way to do it right there, and it wouldn't cost you anything but time. So and with that in mind, then let's jump to you know, Herzog talks about familiarizing yourself with basic legal terms and concepts.
00;40;01;20 - 00;40;41;06
Clark
And thank goodness we live in a day and age where you can do that practically for nothing online. There are so many simple contracts that you can look through and read. There are so many books that cover and content online that covers general legalese as well as legally specific to the film industry. And it's not that you have to jam all of your, you know, your contracts or agreements with people full of this legal ese, but having a basic understanding of how a contract is structured and what is going to give you the the ability to do what we just said to to not only discern what people are putting in front of your face
00;40;41;06 - 00;41;01;20
Clark
in asking you to sign, but to help you as the leader of your project, to put together simple but effective and clear contracts for all of your cast and crew. So there is and I will name any specifics, but there really are some I mean, if you just go, you know what? If you like, you know, books, there's books, there's YouTube videos, there's just there's like a ton of content.
00;41;03;00 - 00;41;14;25
Cullen
I mean, as you said, we live in a very wonderful era in that you can essentially you have a dictionary at your your doorstep at any time. And so you can very easily I a.
00;41;14;25 - 00;41;16;29
Clark
Dictionary at your doorstep. I've never heard that when.
00;41;17;00 - 00;41;18;28
Cullen
They show up to my door every day in the New York Times.
00;41;19;29 - 00;41;28;04
Clark
But is that what so Canada is so interesting to me in so many different ways. That's how we our words, we used to get phone books. I don't know if you're old enough.
00;41;28;05 - 00;41;31;10
Cullen
Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I was right at the cusp of that. Yeah, but.
00;41;31;17 - 00;41;48;02
Clark
You know, but, but that would be if, if our country actually delivered dictionaries to our doorstep, maybe we would be a lot better off. Maybe. You know, I don't anyway, but people probably wouldn't read them. But now I get your point. But I do.
00;41;48;02 - 00;41;58;09
Cullen
Think it's really I think it's really important that, like you said, is that making them simple, you know, don't try and throw in all these like now again, these legal jargon words for Yeah. For the sake of sounding.
00;41;58;24 - 00;41;59;14
Clark
Fancy, it.
00;41;59;14 - 00;42;09;06
Cullen
Just, just, you know, lay out what is, is going to be what the contract is covering essentially laid out in the simplest terms as possible.
00;42;09;07 - 00;42;24;08
Clark
Yeah. And usually it's just I mean and again, you can we're not going to get it. We're not attorneys and we're not going to give any specific advice or anything. But yeah, I mean, basically in a nutshell, it's you know, it's it's a record of what you're going to do and then what you're going to receive for having done that.
00;42;24;14 - 00;42;47;00
Clark
And I mean, it's you know, it's it's just expectations. This is what I expect to do and this is what I expect to receive in return. That's it. It's really that simple for this level. And of course, my goodness, if you're you know, if you're working on a $20 million budget of 10 million, 5 million, 1 million, I mean, then, you know, you're going to have more things to go through.
00;42;47;00 - 00;43;03;13
Clark
And I'll go back to how we started. I think it's prudent to work with an attorney who understands what they're doing if you're going into a project like that. But I think at the level that most of us are working at, you can really accomplish things with a very simple half page page agreement. I even just call them agreements.
00;43;03;13 - 00;43;21;20
Cullen
I mean, again, it's exactly what you said. It's it's it's negotiating it. That's the whole point of the thing, right? It's like don't I think again, it's another pre or like a misconception that a lot of people think that you almost have to have this like barrier of communication when you're writing a contract and or an agreement to just hand it to the person and hope that but no work on it with the person.
00;43;21;20 - 00;43;31;23
Clark
That collaboration exactly. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So another great point. Colin Yeah, it's not like you write this out in a dark smoke filled room and then you, you know, hand it to the guy that.
00;43;31;23 - 00;43;33;26
Cullen
You may have with him in that yellow light.
00;43;33;26 - 00;43;45;20
Clark
Saying, you must sign this. I think some yeah. And that's where it's like, I don't ever use the word, you know, on small, tiny projects. I don't use word contracts. Yes. It's intimidating and scary. I just say, hey, let's throw together an agreement real quick. You know, they're.
00;43;45;20 - 00;43;46;25
Cullen
Not divorce papers.
00;43;46;25 - 00;44;06;12
Clark
Let's just. But Right. Let's just both work out what we want out of this deal. And then we have it on paper and then we have a clear understanding like that. That's all I ever do there. But, you know, it's often Herzog speaks to this is it's more than just money. I mean there's this is an also an opportunity where you can name collaborators.
00;44;06;21 - 00;44;31;20
Clark
You can, you know, make as part of the components of your contract that you can work with certain people or that you can hire certain other. If you're going to be a department head to hire different people that you want to work with. I mean, there's so many different aspects of this. Yeah, I see it as an opportunity to kind of dictate your terms or come to good agreements with other people.
00;44;31;20 - 00;44;53;24
Clark
So, you know, I think Herzog speaks to this, too. And, you know, Herzog is huge on urgency. We've talked about, I think, just about every lesson here thus far. Urgency has come into play at least once. Herzog definitely doesn't like to mess around when he makes films, and it's no different here. He mentions that, look, if you if you can't make a deal relatively quickly, it's likely that you're not going to have one.
00;44;54;10 - 00;45;12;00
Clark
And I think for the most part that's pretty true. If if you can't come to an agreement on how to work with somebody now and what the project's going to look like, and it takes you more than a week or so to do that. Yeah it's unlikely that things are going to go.
00;45;12;01 - 00;45;22;24
Cullen
And if it does work, it's more often or not going to be a strained relationship. Yeah, because there's going to always be those back side things that you spent, you know, hours mulling over with each other and. Yeah, right. It's just it just it sucks the fun.
00;45;22;25 - 00;45;34;01
Clark
It just might not be right. It just may not be if there's that many, you know, sticking points or if the communication is that strained or whatever the case may be, maybe it's time to move on.
00;45;34;09 - 00;46;02;07
Cullen
Well, I think another another great point that Herzog makes, though, in this lesson is about the fact that, you know, especially working with larger financiers or if you're kind of, again, director for hire or you've been brought on to a project. Yeah. Except that you can always be fired and that that replacement is, you know, not too scary yourself, but let that kind of straw like make you strive to do better and to prove that you are the only person who should be capable of doing that job.
00;46;02;07 - 00;46;33;22
Cullen
And and I think that that kind of mindset really changes the way that you operate on sets, and it'll make you more willing to kind of, you know, both be flexible, but also be very confident in yourself and be able to sort of say, Yeah, you know what, I'm here for a reason and I'm going to I'm going to do what I can to to prove that not only should I be hired for this project or continue to be hired for this project, but I should be hired for other projects, too, because, you know, if there's producers that like you on one project, they will likely again call you back for four more and more
00;46;33;22 - 00;46;34;01
Cullen
work.
00;46;34;24 - 00;46;41;21
Clark
Interesting. So you're saying that just kind of keep in mind that you're not that you're expendable in a sense?
00;46;41;21 - 00;46;54;03
Cullen
I think, yeah. I think a lot of directors get this this head about them where it's like, this is my even if it's not a script they wrote, even if they were brought onto the project, just a direct they get this head about them that it's like, this is my project, you know, this is, this is my vision.
00;46;54;03 - 00;47;14;23
Cullen
I'm going to be I'm the one that's making this movie. And, you know, a lot of times those people can definitely be fired. It happens in major films. How many movies that, you know, big Hollywood blockbusters that came out in the last five years have we heard about directors being fired or being let go? We're splitting due to creative differences and kind of things like that.
00;47;14;23 - 00;47;20;29
Cullen
And it's like, you know, you're you have confidence in your work, but also understand that.
00;47;21;00 - 00;47;22;04
Clark
They have some humility.
00;47;22;07 - 00;47;37;14
Cullen
Have some humility and understand that, you know, you might you can screw up and you can screw up badly and do everything you can to avoid. Yeah. And make take every precaution you can to to make sure that doesn't happen. And and things usually, you know, wind up going pretty well.
00;47;37;14 - 00;48;02;02
Clark
Well, and that's I think just in general. Right. You do the best you can. It's you know, I think everybody who's in this industry has a passion about being in it because, my goodness, like, why would you be doing this if you weren't extremely passionate about it? Your likelihood of having a being able to provide a living for yourself and your family as a filmmaker is ridiculously low.
00;48;02;10 - 00;48;24;08
Clark
The stress and insecurity that comes from this career is ridic useless. So the assumption would be that you're quite passionate about it. So if you aren't, my goodness, ask yourself, What are you doing here? Right. I guess just in general, I mean, if you're on set and you're there's a million other places you want to be, I'd say go do something else.
00;48;24;28 - 00;48;42;22
Cullen
Oh, yeah. And but I think again, it just comes down to communication, especially on set with, you know, again, one of the first things that I spoke to the producers on this feature about was that we have to make sure we have an open line of communication so that if if I feel something's not going well on the set, we can have a private conversation about that.
00;48;42;22 - 00;49;04;05
Cullen
Not, you know, you never want to air that dirty laundry in front of the crew, but perhaps there's some time when you really just need to rant to somebody. And a producer can be a very good person to do that, too, because they often are the people in the position that can fix those problems. And at the same time, I said to them, If I'm doing something that you weren't happy with or that you feel could be done differently or whatever, then we can have that conversation.
00;49;04;05 - 00;49;23;01
Cullen
It's about, you know, people again, going back to that earlier point that I made, people get so afraid of of words they see coming off as insult when in reality, I think that you just have to have understanding that pretty much everyone on that set is doing their job to make the best movie they can. They can make it right top to bottom.
00;49;23;01 - 00;49;43;12
Cullen
And if you understand that even if there's a creative decision, yeah, ideally, yeah. Mean even if there's a creative difference between your, you know, vision and the producer's vision, at the end of the day, the producer's vision is to make the movie the best they can, just as yours is. So just talk to the people, you know, just, just be willing to be to have these conversations.
00;49;43;12 - 00;49;48;14
Cullen
And usually that'll be, you know, that can be that can oftentimes be a lifeline.
00;49;49;07 - 00;50;17;16
Clark
And this goes back to, you know, working with people that you can trust and being assertive but polite and communicating expectations and responsibilities from the get go. I think all of these things are kind of hand in hand. But let's talk a little bit briefly here in our last few minutes about negotiating specifically with actors. Herzog breaks out that section, kind of specifically talks about negotiating for actors, if I'm not mistaken.
00;50;17;16 - 00;50;47;00
Clark
I think he talks about making an offer to Christian Bale for like totally spacing the name of the film, which was it's a rescue done right. But that was the am I correct in that one Poland resolution. Is that the Christian Bale? Yes. The P.O.W.? Yeah. Which I quite like. I quite like that flick. But he talks about how, you know, reaching out to him and not being able to to offer Christian Bale anywhere near his going rate.
00;50;47;00 - 00;51;12;04
Clark
And, you know, obviously, this is not a problem that most of us are going to have in the sense that you're going to be reaching out to A-list actors and not being able to offer them their rate. Mm hmm. Hmm. Hmm hmm. But, you know, and Herzog is obviously a very unique position relative to most of us in the sense that he has a body of work that puts him in a position where he can have talent, wants to work with him.
00;51;12;09 - 00;51;13;05
Cullen
He's quite prolific.
00;51;13;06 - 00;51;35;13
Clark
Yeah, well, not just prolific, but I mean, he is legendary. Yeah. Come on. Here's why we're here. Like, this guy's a legend, okay? It's like a lot of people might be prolific, but that doesn't mean they're good is both prolific and good, you know? So I think, you know, he has access to a roster of talent that want to work with him, both in front of the camera and behind that most of us won't have.
00;51;35;27 - 00;52;04;07
Clark
But having said that, you know, there is definitely there are negotiations to be had for talent for your film, whoever you are out there. And certainly, you know, we start right off the bat with quality of script right. This is just ridiculously huge. If your script is killer, then obviously you're going to be much more likely to be in a good negotiator team position for talent.
00;52;04;28 - 00;52;32;11
Clark
You know, actors, I've seen a lot of cases where actors took quite a bit less than they might have otherwise taken because the role they felt offered a lot to them just as an actor or as an artist or as an opportunity to be seen in a different way. So I think that goes without saying, though. I mean, the stronger your script, the stronger your story, the more leverage you have in every single instance of, you know, of filmmaking.
00;52;32;11 - 00;53;02;17
Clark
But but yeah, I mean, and he talks about I think he talks also about, you know, convincing people to work on your film. How do you find actors negotiate, etc.. I mean, your passion for the project is so, so, so important. And there we kind of cut, right? It's like being being passionate. You don't want to stretch. You know, we talked to the very beginning, kind of stretching the your your the realities of your project because you're so passionate about it.
00;53;02;17 - 00;53;22;15
Clark
But I can't tell you how many times I've seen passion in the room went out and I don't you know what your experiences with this but passion and clarity of vision are so important. I mean, they are so vital as a director. Of course, that's what you do as a director. You're you are the person with the vision and you communicate that vision to other departments to execute it.
00;53;23;17 - 00;53;28;22
Clark
And I but I have seen so many directors not have clarity of vision.
00;53;28;27 - 00;53;30;27
Cullen
Oh, geez. Yeah, the silent types.
00;53;31;00 - 00;53;38;07
Clark
I just well or you know, and look, there's so many different types of people that you don't have to be an extroverted, gregarious, you know.
00;53;38;14 - 00;53;39;15
Cullen
No, absolutely not.
00;53;39;15 - 00;54;07;02
Clark
You know, used cars, you know, definitely not like the used car salesman. Sorry. If anybody out there is a used car salesman. I don't mean any disrespect. It's a shorthand. But, um, but, you know, I have seen it. I have seen it so many times. And it's a skill that you have got to work on it. Your ability to concisely with passion, present your vision for a film is so key.
00;54;07;24 - 00;54;29;15
Clark
And right here is a great area where it's key to be able to impart that passion to a you know, to a collaborator. Here we're talking specifically about actors, but it could be anywhere is so vital. And I and that starts with your connection to the story. In my opinion. It can't start with I. This is a stepping stone for my career.
00;54;29;22 - 00;54;59;00
Clark
I'm going to get recognition this. I'm going to get money from this. You cannot manufacture the kind of passion that comes from being deeply, deeply connected. The story that you're telling, you can't say, I just don't think you can fake it. And I think when that's real and you're sitting at a table with an actor or, you know, a prospective actor or you're, you know, writing a letter to an actor's agent to see if they could potentially take a meeting with you or whatever.
00;54;59;11 - 00;55;23;19
Clark
Mm hmm. You can't fake that. It is so key. And I have seen it happen. Like when when that director or producer sometimes, too, as part of a pitch. Have that true, deep, connected passion to a story. It's amazing. People. People are waiting for that. People are. They are just desperate to see that when you walk in the room with that, it just it just you just.
00;55;23;20 - 00;55;53;09
Clark
You can blow a place up, man. Yeah. You know, if you've seen this too. But you know, so that's so important. It's so key. I mean, I would, you know, and some of these skills you kind of have to practice. Not everybody is, you know, it sometimes it takes work. You have to really put in work to be able to kind of practice or rehearse your your pitches to to really get, you know, your ability to concisely tell your story to somebody to sell them on it, so to speak, can be rehearsed, it can be practice.
00;55;53;09 - 00;56;15;20
Clark
It is a skill that can be refined, you know. So I don't think that if it's not there innately immediately, that you can't, you know, work on that, you totally can work on that. I mean, I can only imagine. Okay. CULLEN Witnesses when there's be great. Could you just imagine Herzog in a pitch room or like in his industry, like he's in a meeting, you know, and he's like, trying to get money for this.
00;56;15;20 - 00;56;16;05
Clark
I just I.
00;56;16;12 - 00;56;33;00
Cullen
Love I would have loved to be in that where he where he realized that that Fitzcarraldo was was more, you know, interestingly about the boat than about anything else. Yeah. And like just hearing him kind of make that discovery and go, I want to make the movie about the boat.
00;56;33;25 - 00;56;59;22
Clark
I would so love I would so love to hear Herzog in a room, you know, especially maybe when he was, you know, I have a hunch he's never been one to to to beg or, you know, to really work to sell so much. But I think just his his true, genuine passion for whatever story that he is telling at the moment, it's infectious and it's really infectious because here we are right now, we're talking about him.
00;57;00;05 - 00;57;24;28
Clark
Look at the films he's made. And, you know, of course, not only is this important for sitting down and, you know, negotiating with actors or, you know, pitching to actors, but of course, this is like your passion and connectivity to the story is what, like why make a film if you're not? If you're not, it's yeah, but I just want to kind of reiterate and focus on how important that is, where I'm actually in the process of doing this now.
00;57;24;28 - 00;57;51;08
Clark
And I'm going to learn more from this and maybe I can come back in a later episode and share from this process. But, you know, right now we're in pre-production on a low budget horror feature film, and we've got the script, you know, pretty darn close. We're all pretty happy with it. We're in the process of fundraising for the film and we're doing pretty well, and we're at a stage where we're going to try to see if we can get some letters of intent, basically.
00;57;51;17 - 00;58;16;02
Clark
So we're reaching out to a handful of actors for several roles, people that we are inspired by whose acting we genuinely, truly appreciate, but who we also feel could be a good fit for it. For the roles and work we're sending out offer basically pitches to take meetings, and this is one of the great benefits of our IMDB pro.
00;58;16;02 - 00;58;24;13
Clark
For example, It's pretty darn easy to get a hold of a manager or an agent for somebody. Yeah, and, you know, we're going to see what happens.
00;58;24;19 - 00;58;27;09
Cullen
We get a free month trial for Andy Crowe. So if you're making a.
00;58;27;09 - 00;58;44;19
Clark
Major pro, if you are a sponsor of this podcast, please, by all means. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can get it. Yeah, you can get. And just also, they offer so many discounts too. I know that I get a pretty substantial discount for being SAG-AFTRA. There are a lot of, you know, so there's a lot of avenues to go there.
00;58;44;19 - 00;59;04;08
Clark
But you're right, you could even get a month free. But you know, so I just want to say that that, you know, being able to communicate that passion of your project is just boom. It's, it's of super killer key. But yeah I will let people I'll keep you guys up to speed and let you know how this process goes.
00;59;04;08 - 00;59;05;00
Clark
I'm sure I'm going to be.
00;59;05;00 - 00;59;05;18
Cullen
As well about.
00;59;05;18 - 00;59;07;15
Clark
It. Yeah, I'm sure I'll learn a lot about it, but.
00;59;07;15 - 00;59;10;11
Cullen
I think we're about we're about the same place for both of our features.
00;59;10;11 - 00;59;13;03
Clark
They're all. Are you okay? You're doing the same thing right now, right?
00;59;13;03 - 00;59;20;07
Cullen
Yeah, right. I mean, at the moment we are basically finishing up scripts in pre with like budget and all that, and that's, that's okay.
00;59;20;15 - 00;59;42;22
Clark
You know, we'll kind of compare notes and we can share our experiences with our listeners here as we go because I'm definitely going to be learning from this as well as I have never had a name talent in a project yet that I've been a significant part of. So I'm looking really forward to seeing how this goes. Yeah, So good luck to you too.
00;59;42;22 - 00;59;56;06
Clark
And yeah, we'll let people know. What do you think? Cohen I think we've covered pretty much everything that Herzog touched on and added our own little spin and thoughts to it here. And any last parting comments about negotiations that you've got?
00;59;56;15 - 00;59;59;26
Cullen
No, I think I think we kind of hash it all out there.
01;00;00;26 - 01;00;28;29
Clark
Awesome. Well, once again, Cohen, I want to thank you for spending some with me here discussing one of my favorite directors of all time and his philosophies on filmmaking. I had a blast and I hope you listeners enjoyed it. And we will see you next time where we will discuss Lesson seven Location. It's awesome. All right, Cohen, Thank you so much, buddy.
01;00;28;29 - 01;00;30;19
Clark
And everybody, we'll see you next time.
01;00;31;01 - 01;00;31;13
Cullen
Thanks.
01;00;31;17 - 01;00;32;18
Clark
Bye bye.