Cullen
Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. Episode 13 Less than 14. That's where it gets tricky on Colonic Theater. And joining me is, as always, Clark Coffey. Hello, California. How are you doing?
00;00;24;24 - 00;00;48;25
Clark
I do an awesome it's a beautiful day. I can look out my window here and see all the way to the ocean. Not that we're close to the beach, but it's the it is a beautiful day. We actually got some rain last weekend. And whereas it was smoky, I think the last time recorded, the sky is crisp and I'm feeling psyched to talk about film and Mr. Herzog here.
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Cullen
Yeah, no, I'm really excited. It's beautiful here, too. Beautiful weather, 20 degrees Celsius at an ember is very rare for here. So I'm.
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Clark
Fantastic.
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Cullen
Energized. But today we're talking about, as I mentioned, lesson 14, which is similar to our last episode. It's kind of the second part, I would say, of this kind of acting.
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Clark
I think that's fair, you know.
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Cullen
Which is working with actors on set. So a little bit different, a little bit different from what we talked about last time. Right. With the method.
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Clark
And kind of more casting kind of pre-production. Now we're talking about we're in production, we're on set, we've cast our actors and we're we're working.
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Cullen
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it's a really interesting lesson because there's a lot of as per usual. Herzog There's some sort of controversy, controversial takes on how he deals with things. And we'll get into all those details.
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Clark
I mean, that's what makes it so juicy, right? I mean, if it works, right?
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Cullen
Well, I mean, that's what makes him I think that's what one of the things about kind of studying him as a filmmaker as well. So thought provoking, it's not just sitting there and going, okay, this is how X makes a movie. And, you know, there's there are behind the scenes process. It's like he's just will like throw some crazy thing out once and it's fantastic.
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Cullen
Oh, okay.
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Clark
And you know, he has tried so many different techniques and we're going to we're going to get into some of that here, like hypnotizing actors, for example, which I mean, come on, how many directors have done something like that? So it's it really is like a fantastic and this is what we love. I mean, we're both fans of Herzog.
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Clark
Of course, that's a given. But it's why it's so fun to take a look at his films and his philosophies of filmmaking because it's really there's such a great canvas there to compare and contrast and kind of make decisions for your own styles and philosophies, not that you would ever accept all of his. That's never what we're recommending, of course, but it's a great sounding board or, you know, contrast.
00;02;40;13 - 00;03;04;12
Clark
So and acting is something that I know I've mentioned before is near and dear to my heart. It is one of my absolute favorite aspects of filmmaking. I both enjoy acting and I and directing actors. It is it is truly one of my greatest joys in filmmaking. So when I'm on set working with actors, it's when I feel like I'm most in it.
00;03;05;18 - 00;03;14;19
Clark
So what about you? Is that, you know, just to take a tiny little quick. But, you know, I know. I mean, is it one of your favorite parts or is that a I'm in between.
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Cullen
I love I really like location. I love getting out. And, you know, one of my desires not necessarily as a career option, but one of things I love the most with film is even just going out and getting, you know, nature footage and things like that. So I am in between there. I do love working with actors and I love the energy on a set.
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Cullen
But there's also times where I think that filmmaking can be very poetic and very solitary. Yeah, and that's kind of a lot of fun too.
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Clark
And I know that it's kind of like goes back to have kind of not to put words in your mouth, but I get a sense from just knowing you for so many years now that there's kind of like a communion you have with the camera and the image that is a really important part of it to you. Yeah.
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Cullen
So definitely.
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Clark
Yeah, well, you know, so right off the bat and I love I mean, I just love this. This is this is a really beautiful phrase, and I completely agree with this philosophy here. Herzog starts this lesson right off the bat, and he says, Look, there's no stars on set. Now, of course, he definitely works with stars, but what he means is everybody's equal.
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Clark
There's no stars on set, but whoever is in front of the camera is royalty, even extras. And I was like.
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Cullen
I like I set out. Yeah.
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Clark
Yeah. And you and I were briefly talking before this and I'm like, you know, I have actually done background work for a brief period of time, and I recommend it actually to everybody. When your first first, first starting out, especially if you live in a big market, you know, doing background work, the barrier to entry is very low.
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Clark
Well, when I see very low, I mean very low relative to just about doing anything else on a professional film or television. So yeah, but I know.
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Cullen
People who just work in business who do weekends going.
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Clark
But do.
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Cullen
Background work, right? Yeah.
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Clark
But it can be challenge. And I don't mean to misrepresent, especially if you're union, it can actually be hard to even get background work in l.a. Yeah, but it's a great opportunity to get on a professional set and actually watch the, you know, mechanization, watch people working and see how a pro set operates. It's fantastic experience. And, you know, you can be just starting out in your career and work six feet away from, you know, people at the top of their game.
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Clark
So it's a great way to get close to people. I digress. But it's so wonderful to hear that because for me to hear that, because most of my experience is that extras are definitely not treated like royalty now they're kind of more treated like cattle, frankly.
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Cullen
As cannon fodder.
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Clark
Who can fly, you know. But but, but I really do love this phrase, right, that, you know, look, there's there's no stars, meaning there isn't somebody that's above somebody else, you know, receiving special treatment or whatnot. But whoever, whoever's in front of the camera, they're royalty. Yeah. And I think it's it's a wonderful way to wait to kind of raise this.
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Cullen
I think that the you know, my take on that, too, isn't necessarily that it's like, you know, bend over backwards to serve no talent, but rather that because the image is so sacred and I don't mean the visuals, I mean that the image, the the frame of of whether it's film or digital you're shooting on that that exact moment that you're capturing is sacred and precious.
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Cullen
So anybody involved in that is exactly it's like it's like making a stained glass window. It's like, you know, you could have a sheep in there, but that sheep is now this holy thing and this right, this beautiful work of art.
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Clark
Yeah, great way to put it. Right. And you know, and performances are, you know, they're very fragile things, right? A performance is this fluid, fleeting, vaporous kind of, you know, thing that's happening in real time. And I think that, you know, we've talked about other ways to protect that space and and allow for these fragile, nuanced moments to occur on camera.
00;07;05;19 - 00;07;34;23
Clark
You know, you really have to create that sphere of protection for whoever is in front of the camera at what you know, whoever it is, whenever they are. So I love that, you know, Herzog goes on to talk about having confidence with your actors. Well, yeah, boy, I would hope so. I mean, if you've done your due diligence or if you have taken the time and the investment in your casting, then and certainly hopefully by the time you get on set, you still feel good about them.
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Clark
Yeah, hopefully you've you've although.
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Cullen
There have been very famous examples of people being recast you know mid.
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Clark
Well certainly it certainly and it does happen it does happen and we haven't talked about that and Herzog hasn't talked about that. But, you know, I think that's a really good point. You know, if you're ever in a situation where because, look, every, you know, things happen, right? Or, you know, I don't even want to say, well, you could that it's a mistake in casting.
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Clark
But sometimes situations change. Sometimes, you know, you feel like something was a fit. But by the time you get to shooting, you realize it's not. So that definitely can happen. And I think that's a good point. I mean, look, if you're to the point where you have really lost confidence in your actor, I mean, it's like you have, you know, and we all kind of know, right?
00;08;17;12 - 00;08;32;12
Clark
You there's things that happen that kind of deal your confidence a little bit, but you're like, no, no, no, it's good. I still trust them. When you get to a certain breaking point where it's like, okay, now if you don't feel like you trust your actors at all, then probably that's where you have to start looking at will.
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Clark
Should I recast this? Because it's painful and it can be expensive and time consuming and everything else, but it doesn't get better the longer you wait. I mean, it's better to recast somebody in the first week of shooting that it is in the last week of shooting my good. Soon as you.
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Cullen
Have that inkling.
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Clark
As soon as you know. But an inkling as far as like you've really molded over and you've had conversations with.
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Cullen
You shouldn't just. Yeah. If they you know, if they make one little mistake, then you shouldn't be like, all right, they're done.
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Clark
Oh. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I think that that's almost every day. So that's not. Yeah.
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Cullen
The thing that comes up for me is more personality, right? You know, I can after spending a few weeks with somebody, you usually can pretty have a pretty good gauge on their personality, both positive and negative aspects. And I think that sometimes if those negatives really outweigh the positives, then, yeah, you can you can kind of make a guess there.
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Clark
But it's, you know, it's one of these kind of intuitive, you know, ultimately, ultimately it boils down to just, you know, your intuition in a sense. I mean, you know, look at the the relationship that Kinski had with Herzog. Of course, it's notorious. We've talked about it numerous times, and it's been the subject of, you know, all kinds of myths and stories and everything else.
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Clark
But, I mean, certainly their relationship was a complicated and sometimes violent one. But Herzog, his intuition was, okay, yes, this is challenging. And it's often, you know, Kinski is completely a catastrophe on set. And he's you know, other people are about to quit their positions. This is, you know, horrible. But he stuck with them. Yeah. And there's definitely some proof in the pudding as far as the results on film.
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Clark
But, you know, everybody's going to have their own points where where it may be time to recast. But but Herzog So, you know, hopefully you're going into this with a high level of confidence. You have a rapport with your actors. Now you're on set, you've gone to pre-production, casting, perhaps you've rehearsed with your actors. Certainly, hopefully you've talked with them.
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Clark
You've had an ongoing dialog since you've cast them and now you're on set. So hopefully you've got, you know, you're able to read them a little bit. You understand them as human beings and as actors. And so Herzog talks about, you know, having that understanding so that, you know, you know, when you need to kind of keep them safe and, you know, maybe when to have them feel a little bit uncomfortable.
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Clark
Mm hmm.
00;10;55;22 - 00;11;08;17
Cullen
And that can be, you know, again, it's really does relate to the last episode where it's like, how do you ride that very fine line, that very slippery slope of not breaking that trust with your actors.
00;11;08;17 - 00;11;09;06
Clark
Right. But.
00;11;09;25 - 00;11;29;21
Cullen
You know, letting them be aware of the type of environment you're trying to create. Yeah, because many actors will legitimately say yes to being uncomfortable or, you know, being and not the the nicest situations environmentally, like if it's freezing cold out or. Right of course, to a safe degree, I mean, especially.
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Clark
If it's pertinent to the story, if it's pertinent to the scene, you know, I think there are limits.
00;11;34;28 - 00;11;46;05
Cullen
But but I think the worst thing you can do is not involve them in that process and communicate that with them, because then you're again, as we said, that this whole communication and trust thing is so vital, right?
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Clark
In order that we ended or at least we talked about, I think at length about honesty with your performers. Yeah. And having them be able to opt it to consciously knowingly opt into an experience or opt out of experience as opposed to have it just thrust upon them. And of course, there are you know, I mean, there are gradients to everything.
00;12;06;04 - 00;12;27;26
Clark
And, you know, Herzog talks about, you know, when it may be appropriate, you know, if an actor is feeling a little bit uneasy about a scene, they're maybe they're feeling a little vulnerable or insecure. But in this scene, the the character is vulnerable or insecure or confused. And instead of kind of coddling the actor and waiting until they're secure, he's like, no, no, no.
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Clark
Let's let's just let's do a take. Let's go for it. You know, that kind of stuff makes sense.
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Cullen
It's like I call it almost like accidentally method, right? Like, it's like they might not be method actors, but it's essentially the process. There you go. Herzog does get into method acting later.
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Clark
He does. And we'll talk about that. But I do.
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Cullen
Think that sometimes that is even better because I think that like I almost think that this accidental method is is more effective because it's becoming it's coming from a natural place. It's not coming from a thought process of I am going to go method. It's coming from a thought process of damn, I have a lot of stage fright right now.
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Cullen
Oh, let's use that, you know. So it's kind of funny how.
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Clark
It well, and it's interesting, you know what I say? I think, you know, actors who are experienced actors who are trained and experienced are going to understand these things. And I think, you know, because, look, they will have worked through this kind of situation a hundred times. And so they're going to have an understanding of what's going on here.
00;13;32;00 - 00;13;52;20
Clark
And, you know, there's also kind of a school of thought. I remember one of my old acting teachers, you know, she was like, look, everything is part of the story of how you feel at it. You know, I mean, it's it's all part of the story. You channel it through their side. And I think most actors have kind of learned to take whatever it is that they're feeling in that moment and realize that, hey, I can use this in the story.
00;13;53;05 - 00;14;11;22
Clark
I think with some, you know, with less experienced actors, if you're working or maybe you're they're not even professional actors, you have to be a little more careful. I think you can still do these kinds of things. You can still use that uncertainty, that vulnerability. But I think you need to let them know what you're doing, like, hey, you know, explain it a little bit to them.
00;14;11;22 - 00;14;33;26
Clark
Hey, like, you know, it's okay. You feel nervous, but this is going to be perfect for where we're at with the story and the character right now. Let's just do a couple takes and, you know, so it's just so situation specific. But I think overall in general, absolutely. I mean, use what's in the air, use what's going on well into the scene.
00;14;33;26 - 00;14;43;10
Cullen
I've got a little anecdote. When I was in high school, I was doing a short film about Andy Warhol's Factory Girls.
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Clark
Okay.
00;14;43;27 - 00;14;49;01
Cullen
And one of the actresses that we had didn't know any of her lines, so she came to set.
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Clark
Boy, none.
00;14;49;22 - 00;15;06;17
Cullen
Of them. And it actually wound up working out really well because it was a very clear, you know, thought process of her when she was sitting there delivering the lines that it really looked like she was straining to remember them. But it played out as seeming like she was like.
00;15;06;27 - 00;15;07;18
Clark
They nervous.
00;15;07;18 - 00;15;17;00
Cullen
And concerned to talk and concerned to say the wrong thing to this. You know, Andy Warhol lady. So it actually worked out really well.
00;15;17;00 - 00;15;19;19
Clark
Great that you guys were able to use it, right? Yeah.
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Cullen
And I'd much rather do that than scold someone for, you know, well for sure lines or whatever. Right.
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Clark
And I think if it's working I mean I have an example where unfortunately that, you know, the opposite happened.
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Cullen
Right, Right.
00;15;32;05 - 00;15;57;20
Clark
Where where I was working on a short film is one of the first first short films that I had ever done here in Southern California. I had recently moved here. I had a lot less experience than I did now, but I was working on this film just as an actor. I was playing one of the leads and one of the actors who was going to be in a handful of scenes that we were shooting this day didn't show up and just didn't show up.
00;15;58;11 - 00;16;31;17
Clark
And that's definitely, you know, that's an issue with the director and producers to not have been on top of that. But we had a significant role not show up. And so that role was filled with somebody who had very little acting experience. And unfortunately, you know, his nervousness, his vulnerability was not appropriate in these scenes. Mm hmm. And the director had a really difficult time, you know, trying to mold where he was in his current state.
00;16;31;26 - 00;16;32;10
Cullen
Yeah.
00;16;32;14 - 00;16;46;24
Clark
His inappropriate performance there. And it actually turned out to be a pretty big deal and had a significant impact negatively on everything that we shot that day. And it actually was it was pretty nasty. Mm hmm.
00;16;47;04 - 00;16;49;21
Cullen
But I do wonder, though, if a more experienced director.
00;16;49;26 - 00;17;08;20
Clark
I think so. I think so. I think so. Yeah, I think so. But I think this is just a it was just a case in point of, you know, we've got an inexperienced actor and an inexperienced director and so the director was not able to, you know, work with him to kind of channel those insecurities or those fears into a work, because I think you always can.
00;17;08;20 - 00;17;31;12
Clark
Right. It doesn't have to be this this very literal connection where it's like, well, the the character is nervous. So since you're nervous, you know, it's going to be fine. I think you can use your you know, you can get imaginative, you can get complex, and you can kind of twist that. This would just be a simple example where you'd say, okay, you're nervous now, your character doesn't appear to be nervous.
00;17;31;12 - 00;17;50;28
Clark
Your character actually appears to be very confident. So, okay, well, what do we do when we're nervous? A lot of people project this veneer of confidence, almost overconfidence, because they're covering up an anxiety or, you know, some feeling that they're not good enough or there is, you know, some self-esteem issues. So they project this like very confident veneer.
00;17;51;11 - 00;17;59;17
Clark
So let's work on that, you know, So there's all different ways that, you know, that you can channel these kind of energies, but I just don't think the director had the experience, just hadn't had a new situation.
00;17;59;17 - 00;18;03;22
Cullen
It was it was a situation where it's like, Oh, crap, this guy doesn't know any lines and doesn't know.
00;18;04;05 - 00;18;07;03
Clark
Oh, boy. No, it was even worse. You want me to tell you the full story? Just.
00;18;07;19 - 00;18;08;20
Cullen
It was worse here.
00;18;08;20 - 00;18;25;23
Clark
Yeah, it was. And and again, I want to say, you know, if anybody I've worked with recognizes this story, you know, I think all of us were very inexperienced. And so where I could have been there for this actor or even for this director, I wasn't because I didn't have enough experience. It was just we're all starting out.
00;18;26;02 - 00;18;42;02
Clark
But the solution was that this guy was going to have a couple beers and that that was going to take away his anxiety for the scene. And let me just tell you how that did not work out very well at all.
00;18;42;28 - 00;18;43;24
Cullen
And that's hilarious.
00;18;43;25 - 00;19;00;18
Clark
I think instead of like a beer or two, he ended up drinking like a six pack. And so now on top of being nervous, he was actually intoxicated. And it was a very, very challenging shoot day, let me just say. Yeah, but hey, we lived we went on to fight another day.
00;19;00;18 - 00;19;01;14
Cullen
And you learn from it.
00;19;01;17 - 00;19;27;06
Clark
And we learned from it. But but anyway, so yeah, look, Herzog doesn't talk about this, but from my personal experience, I would say maybe don't go the liquid courage route. No, necessarily. If the issue is that you have an actor with a lack of confidence, getting drunk is probably not the best solution for that. Yeah. Yeah. And that's hey, you know, and Herzog says, you know, no one to push but know what your limits are.
00;19;27;06 - 00;19;33;26
Clark
And that would be like a really good case in point of know what your limits are. Maybe one beer, not six. Not Yeah.
00;19;34;12 - 00;19;35;13
Cullen
Yeah, exactly.
00;19;36;02 - 00;19;57;23
Clark
Oh, my gosh. But but yeah, look. Hey. And this is this is, you know, part of the wonderful world of filmmaking. You've got to start somewhere. You have to learn your lesson somehow. And I think the best lessons are learned on set. And you can, you know, you can take a masterclass from Herzog, you can listen to this podcast, you can do all these kinds of things, watch all this, you know, read a million books and watch a lot of YouTube videos.
00;19;57;23 - 00;20;01;10
Clark
But look, you know, everybody learns on set. That's where you learn.
00;20;01;18 - 00;20;13;13
Cullen
And perhaps that even is a pretty decent segue into his next point, which is about rehearsing. Yeah. Which is don't he? He doesn't like to rehearse or do like a table read.
00;20;13;22 - 00;20;14;02
Clark
Right.
00;20;14;04 - 00;20;18;03
Cullen
Beforehand, which I think is really interesting. Yeah. And I think again, like anything.
00;20;18;04 - 00;20;19;02
Clark
Takes interesting about.
00;20;19;02 - 00;20;44;23
Cullen
That, There's, there's pros and cons. Yeah. I mean it's not it's definitely not his most controversial thing because there's a lot of directors that don't like to rehearse. But I, I think it depends on the actors because I think that honestly I think that the more experienced actors can really benefit from rehearsal time. And this is going to sound almost like it's it's, you know, the opposite of what it should be.
00;20;44;23 - 00;21;17;26
Cullen
But yeah, I think that the more Ben, the more experienced a actor will benefit from rehearsal time because they know how to play around with those things and to try new things. Okay, there's less experienced actors. I would almost rather limit the rehearsal time as much as possible. And the reason for that is because I think that a lot of times with less experienced actor, they overthink things where if you if you don't give them a chance to overthink and you just basically say go with your very first instinct, it can often come out a lot more natural in a lot more real interesting, as opposed to if you let them rehearse it for, you
00;21;17;26 - 00;21;33;15
Cullen
know, three weeks and they have all these different scene studies and things like that. And then they get on the set and they've got this whole scene over thought in their brain. They are thinking about every single word that they're saying. At least that's been my experience and that's been my preference, both as an actor and as a director.
00;21;33;15 - 00;21;49;27
Clark
I think that and I think that's very valid. And I think, you know, you're speaking to I will generalize it a little bit more. I mean, there you know, every actor is going to have their own process and they're going to have their own baggage. They're going to have their own experience level. And I think that there are pros and benefits to both.
00;21;50;10 - 00;22;18;19
Clark
But I think there could there are ways to mitigate, you know, Herzog's greatest fear and it sounds like yours a bit, too, is that if you rehearse, you lose spontaneity. Now, of course, we've talked about, you know, at length that Herzog is very much focused on on urgency and spontaneity. And and so it makes sense that within his style, his framework, philosophy of filmmaking, that he wouldn't rehearse, that he was he's going to air on the side of urgency and spontaneity.
00;22;18;29 - 00;22;37;15
Clark
Yeah, but I think, you know, this is a challenging one. And so I think it depends on, you know, you as a director, what are your what are your what do you want your style to be? What is your subject matter? What's the overall tone feel, etc. of your film? And you may have to take this case by case.
00;22;38;13 - 00;23;05;18
Clark
You may be working on a project where spontaneity is, you know, more important than other considerations. I can say, you know, I am sometimes a bit hesitant about, you know, I'm kind of a fan of rehearsal, and maybe that's because I've come from a world of theater before I ever worked on camera. And I know as an actor myself, I am a huge fan of a lot of homework.
00;23;05;24 - 00;23;15;24
Clark
Now, here's the catch. What is homework, though? You've got an actor who who thinks homework is running lines. You're in trouble or you have an.
00;23;15;24 - 00;23;17;19
Cullen
Act with his or her favorite actors.
00;23;18;00 - 00;23;35;12
Clark
Well, are just that, you know, a lot of less experienced actors are they put almost all of their time into learning, quote unquote, learning their lines because they're afraid that when they get in front of camera or on stage, if it's theater, of course, that they're going to forget their lines. And so they're so focused on their lines.
00;23;35;19 - 00;23;47;18
Clark
Well, sure. Say a line a hundred times. What's going to happen when you get on camera, if you've memorized it by rote? So, of course, there's not going to be any life in it. You've literally taken all the life out of it.
00;23;47;27 - 00;23;50;06
Cullen
Not it's just become muscle memory. Yeah.
00;23;50;21 - 00;24;11;12
Clark
Not because you rehearsed, but how you rehearsed. Yeah, it's about how you rehearsed. So for me, I think rehearsal is vital. But for me, rehearsal is not about line memorization. Saying them over and over again. It's not any it doesn't have anything to do with lines. It has to do with circumstances.
00;24;11;19 - 00;24;20;28
Cullen
And I think it's you have to experiment, too. Like I would say that that's the value to me at least of of action, is that you don't have that time on set right at right.
00;24;20;28 - 00;24;38;29
Clark
And this is where you're this is where I'm trying to take this reasoning here, what you call experimenting. So the script is full of what we call given circumstances, right? This is these are all the variables that are taking place in this story that are affecting these characters. I mean, it's all the story elements. It's all of the background pieces of every character.
00;24;38;29 - 00;25;05;17
Clark
It's their wants, desires. It's every little thing that has happened to them before. Like, you know, these characters have lives that exist well before the time of the script and after. And an actor's homework is thinking of all of these things and creating these memories. So if that's your rehearsal, you call it, you know, experimenting. But it's really about seeing how these given circumstances can affect what's going on in the moment of the scene.
00;25;06;07 - 00;25;32;09
Clark
And I hope this is making sense. But yeah, you know, and I think if you've got an experienced actor and that's how they're putting their time into a rehearsal, it has nothing to do with rote memorization. So that spontaneity is there because all they've done is work on the creation of this rich tapestry of memories that they will then come up or won't come up, or how they're going to affect the performance behind the scenes.
00;25;32;09 - 00;25;38;27
Clark
But it has nothing to do with like, here's how I'm going to say this line and here's how I'm going to say that line, and I'm going to end here and sad there.
00;25;39;09 - 00;25;52;05
Cullen
If you experienced actors can sit in silence for an hour of rehearsal doing script work and come out with a better rehearsal than two inexperienced actors that are just doing scenes over and over again.
00;25;52;16 - 00;26;13;07
Clark
Well, at scene, doing scenes over and over again is horrible. And so in that case, I would say, look, if you have actors who that's the only way they know how to work and you can't cast other people, this is what you're limited to, then yeah, I either don't don't let that, like guide their rehearsals. Don't let the rehearsals be just reading lines over and over again, running scenes over and over again.
00;26;13;07 - 00;26;35;11
Clark
Don't let it be that guide their rehearsals toward a an analysis of the given circumstances of the script in their character. So you know, that's that's me. It's obviously pretty different here. You know, Herzog doesn't go into these kinds of details here because it's you know, there's not much time. So he doesn't provide as much nuance. And certainly I'm not going to speak for him.
00;26;35;11 - 00;26;55;17
Clark
I, of course, would never speak for him. But that's that's my kind of take on it. Maybe it's just because I have so much more expensive, you know, our experience on that actor side. But but certainly if rehearsal means running lines, then oh my goodness. Yes, you can take everything out of a scene by running a scene 50 times just over and over and over.
00;26;55;17 - 00;27;00;11
Clark
Oh, and it's horrifically boring. Who wants to do that?
00;27;00;12 - 00;27;04;10
Cullen
You're just going to wind up hating, hating the subject matter? Oh.
00;27;04;27 - 00;27;12;26
Clark
Yeah. I mean, anything loses its meaning if you say it over and over again. I mean, you just sat there, Cohen, and said the same sentence 50 times in a row.
00;27;12;27 - 00;27;14;17
Cullen
You sound like alien garble, by the way.
00;27;14;17 - 00;27;20;20
Clark
It would literally your brain would just start to turn these sounds into meaningless nothings. I mean, we're.
00;27;20;20 - 00;27;25;12
Cullen
Not Bart Simpson. We're not writing, you know, thing on the board, right? Few times.
00;27;25;24 - 00;27;28;10
Clark
Right? Oh, my goodness.
00;27;28;10 - 00;27;29;01
Cullen
You know, I do.
00;27;29;01 - 00;27;31;26
Clark
Think there was a Herc Herzog on The Simpsons.
00;27;31;27 - 00;27;38;23
Cullen
There was anyway, circumstance. I think he did The Simpsons did some like Rick and Morty and a few different things. He's a drama. I think he was on Futurama.
00;27;38;23 - 00;27;40;27
Clark
Great talent, great tie in and.
00;27;41;08 - 00;28;05;19
Cullen
Yeah, there you go. But I also I mean, the one thing I say, I will say that I do disagree with Herzog on is the table read. I actually enjoy a table read more as a kind of the perhaps last chance before you really dive deep in to say, okay, you know what, this really isn't working.
00;28;06;08 - 00;28;07;22
Clark
Like from a writing perspective.
00;28;07;28 - 00;28;38;01
Cullen
Yeah, well, for a writing and from a casting perspective, you know, okay, if an actor is is doing something that's completely out of left field, you can kind of gauge their. All right, can I work with this person and can I kind of show them in the direction that I'm thinking? Or is this going to be a really difficult process just off the that you know, I've had I've had, especially with inexperienced actors table reads have gone have just been really enlightening because they've done things that have led to recasting.
00;28;38;09 - 00;28;39;20
Cullen
Oh wow. It's like they.
00;28;39;20 - 00;28;54;06
Clark
Will can I still so can you dive into that? And the reason I ask is because, you know, as an actor and a table read, I never, ever, ever, ever, quote unquote, act at a table. It's literally just a reading. So I am never acting.
00;28;54;14 - 00;28;56;09
Cullen
Oh, no, Exactly. And that's that's it's.
00;28;56;10 - 00;28;58;25
Clark
Always that way. You looking at performance in a table?
00;28;58;28 - 00;29;18;18
Cullen
I don't know. I had enough performance. I've Yeah. I've seen people though come to table reads and you know act their heart out and I've seen that both go well where somebody is doing that and they're really just experimenting with these lines and it actually can be really interesting. But I've also seen it to the point where it's like, that's complete.
00;29;18;19 - 00;29;42;02
Cullen
You know, that this the characterization here is completely off base. And I think that the reason that's really important to me is that then I can you know, I'm not immediately, as we talked about before, I'm not immediately going to go, okay, this person's out. You know, I'm firing them. But you can talk to them and you can get a reading from someone like that, especially though with inexperienced actors, because of course, inexperienced actors are aren't going to take notes as well.
00;29;42;02 - 00;29;58;02
Cullen
And I don't mean that in a personal like they're insulted. I mean that they just don't have flying notes to their right Yeah implying note notes to their performance is going to be more difficult because they as you said, they don't have the experience. So sometimes with really inexperienced actors, if they do, those big table reads well.
00;29;58;02 - 00;30;28;08
Clark
Usually that's the only type of actor that would do a big table exactly like this. Obviously, like you get into the story as you tell it and it's not like you've got a flat affect and you're not in the story, of course, but it's certainly not acting. You know, it's not before, definitely not a performance. And so, yeah, if you've got somebody coming into a table read and they're, you know, given this, you know, an opening day performance kind of situation, and then it may just be that they don't understand what a table read is for and what the etiquette is there.
00;30;28;09 - 00;30;28;22
Clark
You know.
00;30;29;00 - 00;31;01;28
Cullen
But I think I do have a specific yeah, specific example, too, of that happening where it was. Again, it was like reading through this thing. And I remember afterwards the producers and I had a conversation. We were just kind of like, That's completely wrong and not anything against the actor, but we just realized that it was a complete miscast and that be the performance that, that like the, the entire read that they had given for this character, just the personality that they'd apply to the words was was like the, you know, completely way off of what you know, what the story needed.
00;31;01;28 - 00;31;15;26
Cullen
And it wasn't only, you know, again, I also want to reiterate that it's not just for personal taste. It's not just me sitting there going, Oh, I would have said that differently. It's it's the story. You know, how does the how does the character choices serve the story? And of course, you know, you can you're never going to get all of that out of a table read.
00;31;16;24 - 00;31;30;16
Cullen
But it can be a really good And what I've found is a really valuable kind of first line of defense that that makes sense where you're kind of you get, you know, some of those things. If some of those problems start coming up in the table read, you really better take a look at.
00;31;30;26 - 00;31;31;14
Clark
Interesting.
00;31;31;27 - 00;31;34;00
Cullen
You know what you those choices you've made are.
00;31;34;20 - 00;31;35;00
Clark
Actually.
00;31;35;24 - 00;31;36;01
Cullen
My.
00;31;36;01 - 00;32;03;26
Clark
Problem yeah I've only ever used table reads in theater. I've never used a table read for myself. I've been a part of reads for films, but it was only ever from a writing perspective, it was only ever. Let's hear the words out loud. Let's get a sense of story structure, but more dialog. Let's see, you know, do jokes land, you know, how do things sound when they're actually up off the page?
00;32;04;08 - 00;32;23;13
Clark
Yeah. So that's the only way that I've ever, ever used a table read in theater. It's different. It's a little more of a tradition. But, you know, they're also helpful in the sense that they can bring a team together. You can. It's an opportunity to start to develop rapport now, especially, you know, my theater experience. Most of it was an ensemble cast.
00;32;23;22 - 00;32;42;11
Clark
So you're building rapport amongst all the actors in that time that you're doing a table read, and it's just kind of an excuse to do that. But yeah, I've I've never seen a table read used for anything other than more of a writer's tool for, for film before. But of course, everybody has a different way of working for sure.
00;32;44;03 - 00;33;15;21
Clark
So over rehearsing, we've discussed that. It's interesting. This is now this is where could get a little maybe slightly controversial from Herzog. He talks about training and he uses an example. This is intriguing to me. I think I think there are a lot of variables here. I disagree with Herzog on this a little bit. So he uses the example of Marlon Brando and then Strasberg, and he thinks that Brando was a better actor before he received his training, right?
00;33;15;28 - 00;33;16;11
Cullen
Yes.
00;33;16;16 - 00;33;42;13
Clark
And I think that there are a lot of variables that led Marlon Brando to be disenchanted with acting. And I think that had more to do because I don't think he ever actually lost his craft, ever. I think that he remained an exceptional actor. That ability was there throughout his entire career. I think his willingness to put in any work and I think would diminished.
00;33;42;13 - 00;34;06;14
Clark
And I think that his he became very disheartened with the industry, and I think he found less and less joy from doing it as time went on. And I think those things had an impact on, you know, his temperament on set and to his performances. But I would argue that I just don't know that I agree that it was because he received training that he became a worse actor.
00;34;06;14 - 00;34;28;29
Clark
I do understand the sentiment that Herzog was getting that, but I even kind of disagree with that a little bit to an extent, But we could. Let's talk about it. So basically, Herzog saying that that if you if an actor focuses too much on background motivation, the internal life of a character, that it can actually make actors difficult.
00;34;29;04 - 00;34;39;13
Clark
Now, it's interesting that he uses that verbiage, right? He doesn't actually really say, well, it makes an actor worse. He says it makes them difficult and.
00;34;39;14 - 00;34;40;14
Cullen
Funny because it's very.
00;34;41;08 - 00;35;02;21
Clark
Funny, right. And Herzog is you know, he is is somebody, you know, goes a little further in his example. And he says it's you know, an actor becomes so focused kind of on these internal issues that they they lose track of some of the just base fundamental external logistics of acting like hitting your marks, staying in frame, finding your light, etc., etc..
00;35;02;21 - 00;35;06;12
Clark
And I could certainly, certainly certain which to me that is the case.
00;35;06;19 - 00;35;38;19
Cullen
Again, it's one of those things where Herzog is filled with contradictions. Yes. Because before this, if if anybody had told me that, you know, do you think that Herzog cares about the internal work of an actor more than the actor hitting the mark? I would say he cared more about the internal work of the actor right. I find that it's really interesting that here he sort of points out that it's he's more workman like here if anything like he's more like, you know, we've got a job to do on set and if you're messing up those, those those cues and things like that, that then we end, which is really interesting because then you'll find
00;35;38;19 - 00;35;54;21
Cullen
places where Herzog talks about filmmaking completely differently, like when he talks about camera, he's like, Yeah, you know what? I don't care if my camera operator goes off and finds the shot himself and moves his arm right into the shot and looks and it's like, it's very funny that he's got, again, these kind of internal contradictions.
00;35;54;27 - 00;36;17;12
Clark
Well, it's interesting. I mean, I think, you know, there are some seemingly contradictory things here, but I think it also falls in line with a lot of other things. He says, You know, I mean, this is kind of the very nature of Herzog as a filmmaker. Is this this seemingly kind of paradoxical duality that exist here. I mean, clearly, you know, Herzog will say over and over and over again, he doesn't want to analyze his films.
00;36;17;12 - 00;36;38;20
Clark
He doesn't want to you know, he doesn't actually want analyze his internal creative process. He doesn't he doesn't want to question it. He doesn't want to know about it. And every, you know, his process, as he describes it in, this masterclass and in other places is all about just going just go, go, go, do, do, do. I don't want to get in my own head.
00;36;38;20 - 00;37;00;27
Clark
I don't want to mess up my flow. I don't want to overthink it. Overthinking it will kill it. So this is his push towards urgency, spontaneity, whether it when he talks about writing, he's talking about his actors. So I think he really does come from a place of, look, this acting is not therapy, filmmaking is not therapy. This is you know, that's not what that's about.
00;37;00;27 - 00;37;07;22
Clark
And we're not trying to find yourself in the process. You're not trying to like uncover your, you know.
00;37;08;06 - 00;37;09;03
Cullen
Your inner demons.
00;37;09;03 - 00;37;43;23
Clark
Emotional demons or issues. Right? That's not what this is about. So that falls in line. This falls in line with that very much where it's like, okay, well, I don't want my actors to do that either. I don't want my actors to get overly analytical. I don't want that to get so far inside themselves that they turn themselves inside out and, you know, are kind of just this paralyzed puddle on the floor now, from my experience, I could speak to this a little bit and I'd be really curious to to know other people's thoughts, but not just my experience, but I've seen this mirrored in other actors experiences that I've known and studied with and
00;37;43;23 - 00;38;06;11
Clark
kind of grown up in the business with and and, you know, seen they're known them for you know, a decade or more time and kind of seen a similar trajectory with them. And that's this is that I think in the end there's actually a model of learning which goes along with this, which I'll probably up. But basically it's like there's a point where you don't know what you don't know, so you just like, run headlong into it.
00;38;06;20 - 00;38;23;28
Clark
And we call this sometimes beginner's luck or but it's like you're not self-conscious because you don't know what you don't know. So you're just like, well, who? You run on out there and do it. And sometimes there can be a wonderful quality to that right? You're not self-conscious, you're not inhibited, you don't know that. You don't know things.
00;38;24;03 - 00;38;44;22
Clark
So you just jump in and go for it. And there can be a real quality to that. Then when your next step of learning is where it's like, okay, I've just realized I don't know anything. Holy crap. And now you're you're filled with self-consciousness and you're, you know, you're trying to learn. You're like, I don't know anything. How can I, you know.
00;38;44;25 - 00;38;45;29
Cullen
The Dunning Kruger effect?
00;38;46;08 - 00;38;48;22
Clark
Yeah. Okay. Is that would you explain. That one to everybody.
00;38;48;22 - 00;39;12;08
Cullen
Well, that's the one where it's like the less you know there's, there is a kind of, what do you call it a mathematical formula for you know, when you love it and when you know very little about something. People who know very little about things, they think that they're experts. Okay, you learn more. Your perceived knowledge goes like, you know, plummets because they realize that you don't Yeah, you don't know anything great.
00;39;12;16 - 00;39;34;23
Clark
And so so so in this so in this first place that I describe this, we don't know what we don't know. It's an unconscious place, right? Because you're not conscious of anything because you don't you don't even know. So then when you so but it's an unconscious incompetence, then you move to a place of conscious incompetence and that and now you are you're you're okay.
00;39;34;23 - 00;39;40;17
Clark
I don't know anything about this. And so you're filled with fear. You're like, okay, I have to go learn. There's all this stuff. I don't know.
00;39;41;01 - 00;39;41;24
Cullen
Yeah, yeah.
00;39;42;06 - 00;40;06;08
Clark
And then you move to a place of competence where now you've spent time learning, but it's still conscious. It's like, okay, I've learned all this stuff. I know that. I know. Okay. And you're still So both of these two modes are a conscious mode you're in yourself. You're like, concerned about your own competency, your analyze your own level of understanding or lack thereof.
00;40;06;15 - 00;40;24;11
Clark
It's very conscious in your head experience, which is unfortunate because acting is not about that. Acting is not about a conscious planned thing, but there's a fourth area of learning. It's we don't know. We know.
00;40;24;21 - 00;40;25;06
Cullen
Yes.
00;40;25;17 - 00;40;47;13
Clark
And that's where your competence becomes unconscious and that is where you want to be. So I disagree with Herzog a little bit, or maybe in my own mind, at least for myself, I'm refining it, which is this I would rather have an actor who doesn't know. They don't know than to have one who's in their head to the point of paralysis.
00;40;47;13 - 00;40;48;29
Cullen
Where they thinks that they know everything.
00;40;49;01 - 00;41;20;19
Clark
In an incompetent or even competent place of. But but it's a consciousness. They're they're consumed with their own selves, with their own inner mechanization and workings. And so they're they're kind of hampered in their ability to pay any attention to these outside things. But if you get to a competent place of unconsciousness and so what I like try to tie this all into the studying, acting thing is this is that, you know, maybe a person who's never studied acting might be easier to work with than a person who's just started.
00;41;20;19 - 00;41;44;29
Clark
And they're steeped into it and they're extremely conscious about this whole process and everything that's going on. But I don't agree. If you take an actor who's been through this process and they've come out the other side and now they have internalized and made like a muscle memory, kind of, if you will, of their craft. Every every, every time I want that actor, I want a studied actor, but who's internalized it?
00;41;44;29 - 00;41;46;09
Clark
And now it's unconscious.
00;41;46;09 - 00;42;15;10
Cullen
You know, it's funny, too. So we've spoken briefly, but I went to a drama high school, like a specialized theater school once before. It was it was Glee. And I. But no, I think that it's interesting that you can actually and, you know, many people who went to the school as well and teach, they're taught there and stuff like that will say the same thing, which is you'll get really great performances out of the grade Nines.
00;42;16;00 - 00;42;31;10
Cullen
Well, the Great Tens and Elevens are trying so hard that you wind up losing those great performances. And then it's not until you get to grade 11 or grade 12, right, that those you almost to that conceit and it's like this weird.
00;42;31;11 - 00;42;33;06
Clark
But with with more nuance.
00;42;33;06 - 00;42;54;27
Cullen
Exactly but I mean that's what and that's what I mean where Kurosawa has a great quote and it's not specific specific to acting, but it's specific to artists and stuff. And he says that, you know, there's this old Japanese saying or something like that, which is that as you go through life, you begin as an infant and that is your most knowledgeable and your most, you know, immersive time of your life.
00;42;54;27 - 00;43;10;05
Cullen
And then you go through life and you try to make decisions and you're always thinking things, and then by the end of your life, you return to this phase where you go, I've learned all I can and you return to the infant phase that you are now just taking in knowledge again and you're learning and you're actively learning.
00;43;10;05 - 00;43;11;08
Cullen
And I think that that's so.
00;43;11;25 - 00;43;11;29
Clark
Not.
00;43;11;29 - 00;43;28;16
Cullen
Only is that poignant to filmmaking in art, art in general, where it's like you get to a certain point where there's definitely that kind of pro, pro, mature kind of thing where you're an amateur, but you're trying to be professional, where you think you know everything, and then you get to the point where you realize how little you know, and it's exactly what you're talking about.
00;43;28;16 - 00;43;49;07
Cullen
But yeah, it's funny that it breaks down almost exactly into the grades in this this high school, which is that, you know, the people who are coming in in grade nine who have sometimes no acting experience, sometimes they've just got kind of a little bit of a natural kick for it. They wind up giving incredible performances. And, you know, there's obviously such tons of learn to learn.
00;43;49;07 - 00;43;58;05
Cullen
But then as you get to grade ten and 11 these middle years, you get this not necessarily an arrogance in the sense that it's a it's a comedy. It's just that it's.
00;43;58;05 - 00;43;59;15
Clark
A it's a yeah, it's.
00;43;59;25 - 00;44;08;02
Cullen
It's this this this assumption that you are becoming an expert when you're not near it, which I think is really interesting. I think it's a really interesting way to look at it.
00;44;08;12 - 00;44;29;15
Clark
Yeah. And so and so that's, you know, so I so I would differ in Herzog, but, but I can totally understand, you know, his experience, which is, hey, I've worked with actors who have been training and I, you know, wow, this is they're really difficult and they're just they're just focused on this whole internal process. And but filmmaking is not just your internal process, man.
00;44;29;15 - 00;44;45;10
Clark
Like, we got to get stuff done. And I do want to add this, too. I mean, you mentioned that these ninth graders, this beginner, is we're able to occasionally give exceptional performances. But I want to say what what you what they likely couldn't do would be to deliver consistent brilliance.
00;44;45;10 - 00;44;49;08
Cullen
Yeah, consistent. That's an explanation of how they got to that point.
00;44;49;12 - 00;45;28;00
Clark
And that's where you get when you actually have gone through all of these these the process of learning and you've come out the other side where you have an unconscious competence. It's consistency, it's that you can bring a brilliance to that. Take after take after take after take and in different ways with different shadings, with different gradients. So in my personal experience is a little bit different than Herzog here, but I can totally understand that for a big book of of experiences where it could be the case that having had some training is going to make an actor much more difficult than otherwise.
00;45;28;14 - 00;45;36;28
Cullen
So again, to say that there are tradeoffs too, and that some people will go through years and years of acting, training and they'll still come out. You know, not not really all that great, Of course.
00;45;36;28 - 00;45;58;02
Clark
Of course. Let's be right. I mean, look, it's of course, we're generalizing. ADICHIE You know, generalizing in a significant way. And this, of course, it would apply to any person in any position, in any part or trade or anything else. Not everybody is brilliant. And even after, you know, extreme amount of study, not everybody is going to be brilliant.
00;45;59;00 - 00;46;18;27
Clark
So of course that that's kind of an understood, but so we'll move on to a couple of last things here that Herzog talks about when it comes to actors in this lesson, he talks a little bit about controlling your actors. And so I always love it when Herzog would get a chance to be reminded of one of, like, Herzog's wacky Kinski stories.
00;46;18;29 - 00;46;42;10
Clark
Yeah, yeah. This is and this is another instance of that. And I think, I hope I'm not going to misquote this, but I'll kind of try to summarize for our listeners here. And I think Herzog tells a story about how, you know, they're they're out in the Amazon. And and I think he's talking about a Gary and there is this kind of morning ritual of like the distribution of coffee, you know.
00;46;42;10 - 00;47;01;20
Clark
And so somebody goes around and brings coffee to all the huts here. Where were all the cast and crew were stayed. And it just so happened not not for any nefarious reasons whatsoever that Kinski was last on this coffee distribution chain. And of course, he, like, flies into a huge fit, you know, Oh, my God, I'm the star of the film and I get coffee last.
00;47;01;20 - 00;47;21;19
Clark
What's going on here? And so instead of trying to sit down and rationalize with Kinski and say, Hey, look, you know, it wasn't on purpose, it just so like, you know, we just went by order of hut, you know, nothing was implied or, you know, all this kind of stuff. HERZOG Just like, runs over grabs, like the last piece of chocolate.
00;47;21;19 - 00;47;39;01
Clark
I mean, they're out in the Amazon and we're this is the seventies. And it's like, you know, something like this was like the highest price to have on set, you know, the small piece of chocolates, all that remained. And Herzog just walks right up in front of Kinski and just takes a huge bite like stuffs all the chocolate in his face Kinski shuts up I mean it's like.
00;47;39;11 - 00;47;39;23
Cullen
Yeah, it's.
00;47;39;24 - 00;48;04;04
Clark
Kind of hysterical. I mean, it's just a funny you know, it's just another funny list. And I love that Herzog is filled with all these little parables, if you will. And of course, you can like read your own meaning into all of these things. But, you know, sometimes and I've experienced this, too. I have totally experienced this sometimes that what you think is a rational way to communicate with somebody might not be the best way to do so.
00;48;05;01 - 00;48;28;05
Clark
We are often not rational people. We often, you know, respond emotionally and, you know, just so happened in that instance, Herzog was very intimate with Kinski. He knew his psyche. He had worked with him for a long time, and he was right on the money with that. So, yeah, I think, you know, Herzog at numerous points, he has the same, you know, the hearts of men.
00;48;29;12 - 00;48;55;08
Clark
And of course, he means men and women. But I think this is a good instance of that. And I think all of us, you know, we're constantly working on your intuitive abilities to read people and understand. But that's just a funny story. It cracks me up. But then he also has another great story, that classic scene in a Gary near the end when he's talking about, you know, that he he's kind of just like got this God complex.
00;48;55;08 - 00;49;10;21
Clark
Right. And he's almost like turning, you know, he's like, you know, the earth will shudder under my feet and birds will fall from the sky. And he's got this. It's amazing performance. He actually looks I don't know if you've seen it recently. I just watched it a little bit to remind myself of the scene. He, like is delivering this into camera.
00;49;10;21 - 00;49;36;19
Clark
He totally like, Yeah, no, he yeah, I had forgotten about that. And he's looking directly into the camera, which of course is usually something you would never, ever, ever do. But it's an extremely intense and effective performance. And apparently Kinski wanted to rant and rave and, you know, this huge gift, this huge dynamic performance. And and Herzog said, No, I don't think that's the route we want to go.
00;49;36;28 - 00;50;01;00
Clark
And of course, fight ensued. And it Herzog says that he had to wear Kinski down over hours and hours and hours to finally get this this performance that was subdued, that he literally just had to, like, take the energy out of Kinski. So that that's like the only way he could get this performance was to just wear him down to the point where he had no more energy left, you know, to do what he wanted to do instead of what Herzog wanted to do.
00;50;01;13 - 00;50;10;03
Clark
But but just interesting stories there. And I think it just speaks so much to the wide ranging.
00;50;10;22 - 00;50;12;20
Cullen
Like skilled world of acting.
00;50;13;10 - 00;50;14;10
Clark
You know, or it's like.
00;50;14;10 - 00;50;15;18
Cullen
Oh, the world of filmmaking.
00;50;15;27 - 00;50;45;13
Clark
Great. It's like, you know, problem solver, psychologist, you know, like, you know, therapist, counselor, like it's sometimes it's pretty amazing, especially when you're dealing with somebody as wild as Kinski. Now, I have never worked closely with somebody that was that wild. So I don't have that experience. But certainly when it comes to having to work with great nuance and kind of almost be like a counselor to actors, I've definitely been there.
00;50;46;07 - 00;50;57;01
Cullen
Well, I mean, that's why it's so important. I mean, that kind of wraps up the whole thing, too, in a nice bow of of some of the previous lessons as well, which is why I think it's so important that you don't just sit in a video village all day.
00;50;57;01 - 00;50;58;03
Clark
And absolutely.
00;50;58;04 - 00;51;10;23
Cullen
Watch from a screen that like you should be there, you know, in the trenches with them and be working with the entire crew as a as a unit and not as some sort of, you know, glorified TV station.
00;51;12;15 - 00;51;18;24
Clark
Right. Right. Or like air traffic controller back there, you know, it's like your headphones on and you're monitors in front.
00;51;18;24 - 00;51;20;27
Cullen
Of me thinking, right.
00;51;21;29 - 00;51;38;08
Clark
And this is you know, it's interesting. So in this lesson as well, Herzog describes his experience where he hypnotized actors in the film Heart of Glass. And, you know, it's funny. I'm trying to think, well, how in the world can I even turn this into something that you might be able to glean some information from as a filmmaker?
00;51;38;08 - 00;51;44;08
Clark
But I certainly never hypnotized a cast. I can't imagine myself.
00;51;44;08 - 00;51;45;01
Cullen
Speak for yourself.
00;51;45;11 - 00;51;47;14
Clark
Well, I speak for. Have you done it?
00;51;47;23 - 00;51;48;21
Cullen
No, no, no, no.
00;51;49;18 - 00;52;01;20
Clark
I've never done it. I can't imagine that I would ever even see myself doing it. And frankly, I am almost like I don't even know if I believe the hypnotizing is a real thing. But it's super interesting. The story.
00;52;01;28 - 00;52;04;12
Cullen
And the performances are super interesting from it to.
00;52;04;12 - 00;52;26;15
Clark
Well. And so let's talk about it. You know we can talk about that a little bit, but just in case our listeners need a little bit more background on this. So for Herzog's 76 film Heart of Glass, he hypnotized his cast, as I understand it, his entire cast, and he would kind of put them under before a scene and then bring them back, you know, in between takes or whatnot.
00;52;27;10 - 00;52;56;17
Clark
But the story and it's been a while since I've seen this as well, but the story is I think there's this small town who survived on this very special technique of of glassblowing, and that master glassblower dies, I think. And so now this town is lost. And then they're in this like, limbo of, like, no purpose. Right. And to represent this kind of strange, dreamlike, lost state this town is in, he hypnotized everybody.
00;52;56;17 - 00;53;05;00
Clark
And it is it is certainly unique. I'm personally a little bit kind of on the fence about what I think of the performances, but what's your take?
00;53;05;00 - 00;53;30;12
Cullen
COHEN I think I mean, it certainly makes for an interesting viewing experience, short of doubt. And I think really that is the goal there at least in my mind, is that it's not necessarily to get a realistic know depth of performance, but rather it's about this. I mean, this trance like almost meta behavior that all these these villagers go into.
00;53;30;18 - 00;53;30;29
Clark
Yeah.
00;53;31;22 - 00;53;48;10
Cullen
And I mean, I think again, yeah, it just becomes this very interesting and there's a lot of movies that that do this to the audience that that are slow burning and almost sort of hypnotize the audience. And I feel like it has that same atmosphere. I haven't seen the full thing. I've only seen the select bits that that are.
00;53;48;14 - 00;53;51;00
Clark
We're going to have to rectify that. Would we do it.
00;53;51;00 - 00;53;51;14
Cullen
Exactly.
00;53;51;14 - 00;53;54;01
Clark
Episode where we cover this film there, I'll.
00;53;54;01 - 00;53;55;23
Cullen
Have to get hypnotized and watch it.
00;53;56;01 - 00;54;05;02
Clark
Right. Well, how about that? I'll hypnotize you. You hypnotized me, then we'll watch it together, and then we'll do the episode while still under hypnosis.
00;54;05;02 - 00;54;08;18
Cullen
Oh, that'd be Mario. First podcast ever. Under hypnosis. Ira.
00;54;08;26 - 00;54;26;05
Clark
I can't wait, but yeah, and I think it's just one of those wonderful things. Look, you know, you love it. You don't love it. I certainly think it's interesting. And what I do love about it is, is that his willingness to to try these things, to go to these places is just fantastic. I mean, that's inspirational to me.
00;54;26;05 - 00;54;37;12
Clark
I may not have the desire to hypnotize a crew or cast, but so what? I think it's awesome that he did. Yeah, I think it's awesome that he did and I totally applaud that.
00;54;37;23 - 00;54;43;27
Cullen
And and if it ever came up in a project for me where I was like, it would help. Yeah, and I need to look into it.
00;54;43;27 - 00;54;50;06
Clark
Yeah. As long as you're, like, treating your crew ethically, of course, you know, you've got their buy in. It's not something you're doing behind them. Oh, yeah. You know.
00;54;50;06 - 00;54;52;00
Cullen
Go into their trailer in the morning and.
00;54;52;26 - 00;54;58;17
Clark
I use snatchers. Just imagine like, you know, what is it like in those old movies? They swing the stopwatch, you know? Yeah.
00;54;59;05 - 00;55;03;28
Cullen
You are feeling sleepy. You're either feeling heavy. Yeah, I'm funny.
00;55;03;28 - 00;55;22;19
Clark
But it is. And I highly recommend, you know, a listeners out there. If you've not seen the film, check it out. I can't think of any other film that claims to have been, you know, shot with a hypnotized cast. It is very unique. And I will tell you it. I mean it definitely you almost start to feel hypnotized.
00;55;22;19 - 00;55;43;06
Clark
I mean, it is like it's almost it's like this trance like quality. So very, very intriguing on the flip side. So I'm a total opposite of hypnotizing actors. Herzog then jumps to talking about letting your actors loose, and I love it. He's like, Turn the hog loose. Yeah, do the accent. Do the exact calling.
00;55;43;16 - 00;55;47;25
Cullen
Turn the hog loose.
00;55;47;25 - 00;56;12;24
Clark
But but he talks about, you know, specific actors that he has a lot of confidence and trust in. And after he feels like he's gotten the takes that he needed that were on script, then he's like, you know I think there might be a little bit something more there. And he lets his actors like I said, the few he mentions specifically Kinski and Cage, but he lets them improvise some.
00;56;13;08 - 00;56;19;02
Clark
Yeah. Now what's your thoughts, just real briefly, is improvised, Is improvization something that you utilize? And if so.
00;56;19;09 - 00;56;27;16
Cullen
If the actor's good? I mean, if it seems like something that I actually did, I acted in a movie recently, just a short with one.
00;56;27;17 - 00;56;29;04
Clark
Of the new Marvel movies coming out. Right?
00;56;29;04 - 00;56;34;07
Cullen
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I'm I am, you know, the new Spider-Man, actually.
00;56;34;23 - 00;56;46;26
Clark
But Coen just let's close for a while. It's funny you say that, because I feel like you could kill that role. Totally. And there's something about the guy that plays Spider-Man that reminds me of you, or vice versa.
00;56;47;19 - 00;56;53;21
Cullen
That's funny. I mean, no, I'm not in Marvel. Unfortunately, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not getting those millions and millions of dollars.
00;56;53;21 - 00;57;05;09
Clark
Well, I'll tell you what, if you if you ever do get cast as Spider-Man, I think our ratings will skyrocket for. Yes, I'm sure that would be awesome. I'm all for. Yeah, but sorry, you're up. So no.
00;57;05;09 - 00;57;25;09
Cullen
No, but so I was in this this short film and again, very close friends with the director and stuff like that. And she wrote the script out and I basically just went to her with the script and said, Can I just throw out all the dialog that you've written and not insulting me? But I sort of said, Can I just not provide the entire thing?
00;57;25;09 - 00;57;37;16
Cullen
And she said, Yeah, sure. And she gave me that trust and it turned out it was a lot of fun to film. And it was just very, very I mean, it was a it was a sort of a comic dramedy type thing. So it wound up working.
00;57;37;16 - 00;57;40;19
Clark
But and this is, you know, you were friends. You had a real life.
00;57;40;19 - 00;58;01;24
Cullen
Yeah, I don't think I'd ever go to a director I didn't know and go. And I also I mean, I also don't act professionally, so I don't think I'd ever be in that position to do so. Right. But no, it was it was funny. But I have you know, again, it depends on the actor. Had I you know, I have I ever used improvization I can't really say that I have much I yeah.
00;58;01;25 - 00;58;02;29
Cullen
I can't really think at a time when I.
00;58;02;29 - 00;58;28;23
Clark
Have I mean I think I've used it sparingly for sure, you know, especially, I mean there are definitely times and I in her as I've spoken to this in a previous episode where for whatever reason just, you know, a line is just like marbles in an actor's mouth. And, you know, for whatever reason, it's just not working. And it could be that the line is really clunky, or it could just be that the actor has not been able to orientate themselves to the line in a way that it makes sense for them.
00;58;29;00 - 00;58;52;12
Clark
Mm hmm. Yeah. And and sometimes the best way around that is to just allow the actor, you know, take the essence of what that line was and allow that the actor to improvise that. Yeah. And again, I will go back to I just want to reiterate, you know, I think the best improv actors are in my experience, in my experience are those actors who really understand what the acting homework is.
00;58;52;19 - 00;58;52;27
Cullen
Yeah.
00;58;52;28 - 00;59;18;19
Clark
Where they really build a, a depth and breadth of memories of using the given circumstance of the script. And because they've not planned and canned right, they've not planned a performance that's not about line readings. It's not about I need to be angry at this line and sadness line. Their work is actually always improv. That's the wonderful thing about a great actor is that it's always as it.
00;59;18;20 - 00;59;24;24
Cullen
Should be from the brain, the part of the brain that feels natural, not from the part of the brain that's memorized lines.
00;59;25;05 - 00;59;39;19
Clark
Right? And so, you know, and maybe we can, you know, we can have a podcast where we go into more depth here. Obviously, it's something that I'm really passionate about. I spend a lot of time on myself, but I think that great actors are actually always improvising they're just improvising with the lines.
00;59;39;25 - 01;00;01;28
Cullen
You know what's funny, too, is, is just before we wrap up, I, I remember I last week I mentioned the in the kind of, you know, techniques of acting episode, the idea that when I was in that play with a good friend of mine that I found that we gave better performances off of each other. If she was really angry at me before we started.
01;00;02;09 - 01;00;02;11
Clark
The.
01;00;02;25 - 01;00;12;27
Cullen
Relationship between that right. And I want to say that that a lot of theater work comes down to improv sometimes to save your ass. The first time that we did that play.
01;00;13;00 - 01;00;14;03
Clark
Oh boy, I've been there.
01;00;14;08 - 01;00;33;27
Cullen
The we what we found out was that we did not receive a huge chunk of the script that we never rehearsed. And so we had like two days to learn this huge chunk of the script I just never received before. Literally two days. It's not even an exaggeration. And of course we didn't. There's no way that you can, you know, wholeheartedly memorize that much or even.
01;00;34;02 - 01;00;39;13
Clark
I picked up my first script. I will I beg to differ, but we'll talk about that later. But with the.
01;00;39;13 - 01;00;46;26
Cullen
Limited rehearsal time that we had, we had probably, you know, an hour and a half a day. So we had 3 hours to basically get, you know, something like 25.
01;00;46;26 - 01;00;57;09
Clark
And I will just say it's surprising. It's surprising how much you can memorize if you don't memorize by rote. But yes. Yeah. For a different skill set in this big chunk and you have very little time.
01;00;57;09 - 01;01;17;14
Cullen
So we get on stage those the opening night and it was one of those things where it's like there's like six points in the play that are very similar dialog wise and they're very easy to get confused. And what happens? Well, with, you know, one of the lines was mismatched and it just didn't make sense in that context.
01;01;17;14 - 01;01;40;08
Cullen
It was at a point where the line that was said was said after I had realized that my dad had died and that was, you know, blah, blah, blah. So it made no sense that that that revelation was some way later and it hasn't happened yet. And me and her wound up in I think most of this is owed to the fact that we were really good friends and that we knew each other very well and acted so much together, improvised the hell out of the entire show.
01;01;40;09 - 01;02;02;19
Cullen
It was probably like 50 minutes of straight improv to get this thing done. And we wound up it was in a competition and we wound up moving on the festival and getting, you know, pretty far in it, which was hilarious considering that our first show, our first opening night was was primarily an improvised and I just remember we were just on the stage like crapping our pants, like I was with her and she was like, and luckily we didn't play it off.
01;02;02;19 - 01;02;17;07
Cullen
But you could just tell from each other that we were both like, We've got to get through this. And it was almost the adrenaline, I think, that really saved us there, that it was just suddenly we were like, All right, we got to improvise. That's, you know, there you go around here. We can't save this. So but we wound up yeah, we wound up doing pretty well, so.
01;02;17;13 - 01;02;18;09
Clark
Well, it's but I think.
01;02;18;09 - 01;02;18;27
Cullen
That that really.
01;02;18;27 - 01;02;21;07
Clark
Separates theater from film, of course. Yeah.
01;02;21;07 - 01;02;43;11
Cullen
And that's what I mean is that film actors with that theater experience can often be really, really valuable because you can, you know, there's there's such differences in theater and film acting. But but there's some things that can carry over super well that you don't really touch on in. You know, for some, for an actor who's strictly trained for film may not even really realize or get the experience of, which can be really neat for sure.
01;02;43;21 - 01;03;07;05
Clark
Well, sir, I think we have come to the end of another episode. Lucky number 13. Everybody out there. I want to thank you so much for listening along. We're happy to have you here. It's a we thoroughly enjoy doing this and we hope that you thoroughly enjoy listening. So, Cullen, thanks again for a wonderful hour and 3 minutes here.
01;03;07;10 - 01;03;07;28
Cullen
Yes.
01;03;08;04 - 01;03;14;26
Clark
And I look forward to our next episode, which is going to be, if I'm not mistaken, sound.
01;03;15;02 - 01;03;15;23
Cullen
Yep, sound.
01;03;16;03 - 01;03;25;20
Clark
Exciting. Cool. And this will be this will be neat. We've not you know, we spent so much time talking about the visuals, about acting, and we've really touched sound in any way.
01;03;25;28 - 01;03;26;07
Cullen
Know.
01;03;26;16 - 01;03;51;18
Clark
That I can think of in these episodes. So I'm really excited to look into this. I think this is an area that a lot of beginning filmmakers neglect. I know and I've I had to learn so much about this. Oh God. And still do. And it's so important. It's so important. So I'm excited for this one. But until then, everybody, I hope you have a wonderful week and we will see you next time.
01;03;52;09 - 01;03;58;27
Cullen
Bye bye, everyone.