Clark
Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I'm Clark Coffey and with me as always, is Cullen McFater. Hey, Cullen.
00;00;17;24 - 00;00;18;06
Cullen
Hello.
00;00;18;11 - 00;00;43;02
Clark
And we're here with our Episode 12, covering the masterclass lesson 13 and we're super excited to be here. This is going to be an interesting one. The topic of of of Lesson 13 is working with actors creating the character. And I think this, this, this one could be juicy. There could be some good stuff here. So I'm excited for this.
00;00;43;02 - 00;01;15;24
Clark
This one in particular. I think it'll be fun. And to kick it off right off the bat, Herzog jumps right into discussing the importance the vital nature of casting for a project. And of course, I think this makes, you know, pretty much common sense, right? Seems important. Yeah, but how important is it? Cullen, You had a funny you were just talking to me earlier about, like, if you added up all the you know, that people say, you know, directing is like 80% cast.
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Clark
He Yeah. And you were like, if you added.
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Cullen
This half the picture.
00;01;19;02 - 00;01;20;11
Clark
Shade scenes, you know.
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Cullen
It's like it gets like 900%, right?
00;01;23;06 - 00;01;56;29
Clark
Like directing is 80% casting, but, but then it's like 70%, you know, the script and then it's like 90% leading and it's kind of funny. So but, but it is it is clearly extremely important. I know that I've been part of projects where casting has been have done well, and it was a great match. And not only did the output like the actual story at the end of the film, at the end turn out well, but the process of making it was actually one that was joyful and fun.
00;01;57;07 - 00;02;15;08
Clark
And then I've been on the other side of it where the project didn't turn out so hot and the making of it was not very fun either. So I've been on both sides of that and probably most people, if you've done more than a couple of things, you've experienced both sides of it as well. So yeah, definitely, definitely important.
00;02;15;17 - 00;02;28;08
Clark
I don't even think there's anything controversial or special to say about that. So I think it's kind of like the next question is then, okay, well, it's super important we agree. Well, how do you do it? Like how, how, how do you cast.
00;02;28;26 - 00;03;01;16
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. And there's so many different I mean, good dynamics between like, let's say you want good chemistry between your leads or whatever, and that can be found in so many different ways, which is kind of why it's a difficult thing to really nail down with like a simple answer. Like, I remember when I was doing acting, mostly stage acting, but I was in a play and where me and this girl, a good friend of mine, were the two leads for primarily most of the play.
00;03;01;16 - 00;03;19;11
Cullen
Like it was really just a two person show. There was a few other characters that came in every once in a while, but primarily it was us. And I remember feeling so great about that play because her and I had this, like really, really great rapport, both on stage and off stage. Oh, not really. Not maybe in the way that you would think.
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Cullen
Yeah. Hey, sorry, it's a PG podcast, but. But no, like things like, you know, I knew because our characters weren't supposed to like each. They were supposed to be like, kind of like a weird sexual tension between what they were really supposed to, like, really not like each other kind of thing. And I realized that she was really angry at me in real life.
00;03;39;17 - 00;03;44;14
Cullen
She gave like an incredible performance. So I used to, like, eat her lunch and things like that.
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Clark
And that's.
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Cullen
Just make her really.
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Clark
Angry. Let me play a little devil's advocate. I get like kind of down a tangent or, you know, alleyway here. But this interesting. So what you're talking about is kind of like this outlet. I'll just play devil's advocate. I don't want to be argumentative, but what you're talking about can really, I think, get you in trouble as an actor.
00;04;05;24 - 00;04;27;09
Clark
Yeah. You kind of rely on whatever relationship that your characters are experiencing in the story. If you're kind of relying on your relationship to be that way in real life on set, that could that could lead to some big problems. I know, you know, some actors do this kind of stuff and I think there's, you know, an appropriate you kind of manipulation that you might be able to do, right.
00;04;27;09 - 00;04;56;09
Clark
Where it's like if you're the the main bad guy in a movie, you might not want to be chumming it up with, you know, the rest of the the actors. You might separate yourself a little bit, but, you know, I think a lot of people run into some big problems doing that, right? I mean, how many times it's like how many times do you have the romantic leads in a story end up being romantically involved and look at all the marriages, relationships that's destroyed that hardly ever works out well.
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Clark
Or, you know, what's that story? It was it was a Jared Leto who I.
00;05;01;16 - 00;05;03;00
Cullen
Know was sending things on the back.
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Clark
Like used condoms or rats or something. I'm like.
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Cullen
Oh, that stuff is bizarre.
00;05;08;09 - 00;05;30;01
Clark
That's fine. I mean, but the it's acting, guys. It's that's why it's called acting because it's not actually, you know, you don't actually have to have these relationships in real life in order to portray this onscreen or on stage. But but, but I guess what you're talking about, though, is that the chemistry between the two of you was worked on stage.
00;05;30;10 - 00;05;51;20
Clark
And that's such an important part of casting, right? I mean, and like you say, it's so complicated because you've got, you know, the individual look and feel and ability of the individual actor or actress that you've got in front of you. But then, of course, you're putting them together with other actors and is that chemistry going to work out?
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Clark
It's it's extremely challenging. It's yeah.
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Cullen
And well, but even on the flip side of that, too, there are some actors that have incredible, incredible onscreen rapport that don't like each other at all. Offscreen Sure. That don't get along and that it's, you know and so that's why I think it's it's a really tough challenge to kind of narrow down like specific tips or, you know, the advice even because it is it can't there's so many different ways that there is.
00;06;20;14 - 00;06;43;08
Clark
I have a couple ideas, though. I have a couple of thoughts. You're right. So certainly I'm not even going to pretend that you can you can kind of boil down or distill the effect of casting into some kind of like list of guidelines or something. You just can't. There is such an intuitive piece, right? That's like that. That would be like trying to explain how do you paint a good painting?
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Clark
I mean, it's like you could talk about techniques and you can talk about different types of canvas and paints and brushes and different subject matters, but you can't, you know, that's just not something that can be taught. It is an art in and of itself. And I'm going to talk about casting directors in a second here because I do have a lot of respect for them, and I think good casting directors are really vital.
00;07;04;05 - 00;07;32;10
Clark
But what I'm going to say is, you know, a couple a couple simple things. I think, you know, some of the things that I see in especially in directors who are just starting out, they'll get a script and the writer will have often, well, all of these like, you know, the the gender, the the race, the, you know, sometimes like height or weight or all of these different kind of external qualities are baked into the script, right?
00;07;32;25 - 00;07;34;15
Cullen
Yeah. Which is always bizarre to me.
00;07;34;15 - 00;07;52;27
Clark
Right. And that's exactly my point. And so but I've seen this where, you know, and then, okay, so director, get script or let me say that if the director wrote the script right, they end up with this script and it's got all of these external kind of qualifications for the character that actually really aren't necessary at all, It's, it's, it's.
00;07;53;03 - 00;07;56;00
Cullen
Really nothing to do with, with they're great. It's actually.
00;07;56;00 - 00;08;18;06
Clark
Really rare. A lot of times like gender, it doesn't actually matter to the story and often sometimes it does. But I mean, age often doesn't matter, you know. So I mean it is so often where people will put themselves in a little bitty box for casting and they end up focusing so much on these external qualities. Yeah. And it's you're really cutting yourself off from a lot of opportunity.
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Cullen
I remember a few years ago not to get too far into writing because ultimately it's about acting. But but I do remember a few years ago, right when I guess I was I was starting out kind of stepping into the professional world. I think I just graduated high school. I must have been five, five or so years ago.
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Cullen
I was on one of those Facebook groups that does like screenwriting or whatever, and I post a page from a screenplay for feedback, just sort of saying, Hey, this, this, this, this introduction makes sense.
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Clark
You know.
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Cullen
Is it easy to read? And, you know, actually, to be fair, there are a lot of there was a lot of really good comments on there and a lot of things that said like, hey, this is good, but here's what you can work on, blah, blah, blah. But there was this one guy that was like just took it and rewrote it in his own words to basically be like, This is how it should be done.
00;09;04;22 - 00;09;13;17
Cullen
And it was all just exactly that. Like it was like your character description is not specific. Like you should have come in and be 35. His hair should be out his shoulders.
00;09;13;17 - 00;09;14;26
Clark
You're like, What?
00;09;14;26 - 00;09;34;01
Cullen
That makes no difference for what the character is. But I also for this feature that I'm working on right now, it's interesting that you mentioned gender because we actually from the third, so we wrote three drafts. There have been more than three drafts, but but three total drafts and there have been like point fives and point eight. And whatever ends with in there.
00;09;34;01 - 00;10;06;09
Cullen
But three major drafts have been written. And on the fourth draft, we decided to switch the gender of the main character and that was partially casting because we have someone in mind who we really want to play the main character. But it also I wanted to see how it reverberated through the script about, you know, if this character suddenly because the script is, you know, not to give too much away, but it's about a character arriving at their distant cousin's house out in the country and then having to deal with their roommates.
00;10;06;09 - 00;10;19;00
Cullen
And I thought, it's a completely different situation. If you're a man going out, then sometimes it can provide a really interesting change. So I would say even then, leave it open like always, always, always watching those things around.
00;10;19;00 - 00;10;36;00
Clark
Yeah, I mean, you can always adapt a script. I mean, and this is where I would even say, I mean, obviously, look, a script is vital. And we just joked a second ago about how, you know, if he added up all these percentages, filmmaking equals like, you know, 600% because it's the script is vital, the casting is vital to all this stuff.
00;10;36;00 - 00;11;01;13
Clark
But, you know, I really do think that there are a lot of aspects that a script of a script that can be modified, these specific little, you know, circumstances that could and should, I think, be modified to work around an extraordinary actor if they didn't fit kind of your preconceived notion of just these external qualifications. Right. So I would absolutely.
00;11;01;13 - 00;11;18;04
Clark
I'm completely happy to do that and often will. Yeah. I would so much rather have an actor that feels like they're a great fit that brings so much to the table. And I mean, I, you know, it's like maybe we can discuss that a little bit. I mean, I can talk about what I look for, you know, when I'm when I'm casting.
00;11;18;04 - 00;11;41;08
Clark
And I also let's jump in here to you know, Herzog doesn't really talk about this Herzog jump. So, you know, he's like, look, you know, it's they're choosing the right actor is the end all, be all, you know, understanding the arts of pain and all these things. But look, let's be realistic. There are very real and and and significant practical logistical limitations or considerations to casting.
00;11;41;08 - 00;12;07;14
Clark
And it's, I think, very rare that you can just absolutely pick just the best actor, period, without taking anything else to consideration. And, you know, I can give some examples. I mean, the horror film that we're working on now, we are in pre-production, we are currently fundraising. We've achieved our first tier of fundraising. So it's like, okay, we're going to make the film, but now we're trying to stretch those goals.
00;12;07;14 - 00;12;26;14
Clark
We're trying to achieve a higher budget. And so what we're doing is, is that we are reaching out. We're making offers contingent on budget to actors who have an audience who have somewhat of a name in the horror genre, which is, you know, where our film lies. And we're not auditioning these people. I've never worked with them before.
00;12;26;14 - 00;12;44;15
Clark
I don't know what they're like on set. I can only see their the work that they've done previously, right? But I don't even get a chance to meet them. I'm going to be working as co-director on this film and I'm not even going to you know, it's like if they say if they say, yes, I will accept and we get this point right, then we can end.
00;12;44;15 - 00;13;14;15
Clark
The whole point is that we can use their name to continue or further our fundraising. Hopefully raise more money, get a higher budget. What we do that they're on board. And so I've got to take whatever comes and that happens a lot. And I say at a lot of levels of film, you know, not just down here in these little bitty quarter of $1,000,000 or less films, but that's, you know, casting is such a huge part of of budget in marketing that those concessions are always being dealt with.
00;13;14;17 - 00;13;32;29
Clark
So and also just right the limitations of what you've got. I mean. Exactly right. You hold castings. It's like wherever where your geographic location is, whatever the, you know, the limitations of your your budget, etc., etc., your geography. I mean, you've got to pick from what you have available to you.
00;13;33;04 - 00;13;51;00
Cullen
So I think and I think a huge aspect of it is also people I hear this question so often, which is like, what's the line you draw on collaboration? And you know, so like if an actor has an I.
00;13;51;00 - 00;13;52;07
Clark
Great question. Yeah.
00;13;52;23 - 00;14;12;18
Cullen
You know, what's where do you where do you say, you know, like, no, I'm the director. I make the final call versus what? But I think that that the thing is you can't really draw that line in your mind. The way I deal with it is if it's a good suggestion, I go out and if it's not, I don't write or I I'm never really on set, especially when it comes to collaboration and the ideas that people bring.
00;14;13;07 - 00;14;27;14
Cullen
I'm never sitting there going like, No, no, no, the actor can't make a suggestion for a shot because they're the actor. I would rather my actors not be thinking about that. But if they were to suddenly come up with something on on the set and go like, Hey, what if we try this? I'm not going to go, No, that's not your department.
00;14;27;14 - 00;14;47;26
Cullen
I if it's a good suggestion, then I'm going to take it. I don't really draw those lines in my head of going like, No, no, no, I've got to make this decision and leave it up to this department. And separating this department, because I think that's a huge part of it, is that a really good team is and we've talked about this in the directing episode, but I think it should go beyond just the director.
00;14;47;26 - 00;15;04;00
Cullen
A really good team on a film set should know every department. Obviously not master it because that would be a lot of time and a lot of effort put into doing so. But but to understand the departments, because that allows so much communication certain between departments.
00;15;04;00 - 00;15;32;07
Clark
And of course, you know, an actor having an understanding of of how a set works and certainly understanding, you know, what's going on with the camera, with lenses, with other things, having like a general understanding of where your frame is going to be at certain focal lengths of, you know, in other things, that's very handy. But yeah, like, like you said, I would much rather have my actor being concerned with their performance and their character as opposed to worrying about the technical, logistical issues of the goings on to the set.
00;15;32;16 - 00;15;57;28
Clark
I will say this, though, it's because sometimes you can you can have this kind of happen. I've been in this place before. I agree with you that a director should be open to feedback. And and I certainly believe that actors can have very great feedback, especially when it comes to the script and their character. If they're doing their homework, they're spending a tremendous amount of time breaking down and analyzing that script.
00;15;58;22 - 00;16;28;03
Clark
But you do have to be careful that the desire to to give feedback doesn't doesn't get in the way of them doing what's asked of them, though. Right. And it should be a very easy compromise where, you know, if an actor comes to the director, say that's who comes to you and has a suggestion for the character or something, you know, it's it's I think you have kind of the obligation to take that and look at it.
00;16;29;02 - 00;16;38;21
Clark
But you can say, no, I appreciate that, but let's do it as written. Now, if the actor is unwilling to do that, that's clearly an issue. So this is fine.
00;16;38;21 - 00;16;44;02
Cullen
Even Herzog talks about about in the the Vietnam movie, about the.
00;16;44;10 - 00;16;44;23
Clark
Oh, the.
00;16;45;11 - 00;16;54;00
Cullen
Where the guy I can't think of the specific names. It's the Christian Bale. Yeah it's the other actor who's who's trying to deliver a line and can't do it without either laughing.
00;16;54;01 - 00;16;55;12
Clark
Oh, right, right, right.
00;16;55;20 - 00;17;00;21
Cullen
And so Herzog says, No, no, let's take it out, say it as you would say it. Right. And then the actor just said, okay, I would just say.
00;17;00;22 - 00;17;01;03
Clark
Great.
00;17;01;03 - 00;17;07;26
Cullen
Goodbye and good luck. Right. And like, it's things like that. Sure. Yeah. But so often directors are so stuck.
00;17;08;00 - 00;17;08;16
Clark
Can be.
00;17;08;24 - 00;17;09;05
Cullen
You know.
00;17;09;10 - 00;17;28;27
Clark
Can be. And I think sometimes the less the experience, the more often that's the case. And I think it's just because, you know, it's when you're when you're new out there, it's it feels a little more threatening to to kind of improvise, quote unquote, So much on set. But I think as you gain experiences, you get more and more familiar with what's going on.
00;17;28;27 - 00;17;46;14
Clark
I think you you're more and more open and accepting of of these kinds of gifts, let's call them, that can occur on set when you're shooting. But, you know, I just want to go back to I mean, like we've we've really hammered home that it's it's an intuitive process that's difficult to to create a bunch of guidelines on.
00;17;46;14 - 00;18;25;27
Clark
But, I mean, there are some things, right? It's like I think auditions are important. It auditions are a wacky thing and they really are a wacky thing. I yeah, I have been on both sides of this process so much, and I'm not sure how much experience you have, but in the years that I was pursuing, purely strictly acting, of course, as an actor, I was in auditions very, very regularly and they often felt pretty boy, pretty wacky, pretty useless, pretty sometimes even insulting, frankly, because certainly there are some good ways to run auditions and there are some not so great ways to run auditions.
00;18;25;27 - 00;18;45;15
Clark
Yeah, but but I do think audition process is important and I don't you know, I think regardless of what level your project is on, of course, if you already have a working relationship with people and you know, personally actors, it's that's a great way of course. And that's what you'll see. You know, a lot of directors will work with the same actors over and over and over again, Herzog included, with Kinski.
00;18;46;01 - 00;19;11;09
Clark
Because once you find somebody you work really well with, it's like generally you want to grab on to that, you know? Yeah, but the audition process can be grueling. And I would say, you know, one kind of except, except that it that it could take a long time and build that into your pre-production. Don't shortchange the amount of time that you've got for casting and even allowing yourself to have, you know, multiple sessions.
00;19;11;09 - 00;19;35;24
Clark
And at an end at every stage. Right. You're going to have your initial, your initial set of castings or of auditions. You're going to bring people to callbacks, you're going to have chemistry reads, you're going to want to move people around and see how they interact in different combinations. Give yourself time and budget for that. It really is important and you'll be doing two things here and both are vital.
00;19;36;06 - 00;19;55;03
Clark
You're going to be giving a sense of what these people are like personally, what their character is like, not their not their on screen character, but their actual human character. And you'll get a sense of like, do your personalities mesh? Do you seem to work well together? Do you enjoy being each other's company? Do they take feedback well?
00;19;55;07 - 00;20;02;15
Clark
Do they have useful feedback for you? You'll get a sense of that and you can't do that aside from spending time with people.
00;20;03;14 - 00;20;11;17
Cullen
And you don't always have to be friends either. And that's a really you thing that you don't always have to necessarily get along with these people, so long as your relationship professionalization.
00;20;11;17 - 00;20;12;02
Clark
I think the.
00;20;12;05 - 00;20;12;21
Cullen
Profession.
00;20;12;21 - 00;20;20;06
Clark
Have to be able to be cordial and right. I mean, you have to have the worked well, but yeah, you don't have to be best buddies. Absolutely.
00;20;20;06 - 00;20;39;06
Cullen
I know. I know very many people that I work with that I enjoy working with on a professional level that I would never hang out with for sure. A drink with or whatever. And and I think that that's kind of what's important is that, like, again, you don't have to get along with these people in the way that I have friendship, you know?
00;20;39;06 - 00;20;39;21
Cullen
Yeah, a.
00;20;39;21 - 00;20;56;26
Clark
Friendship, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And some of the most like productive and fruitful collaborations I've had with people, I was also not buddies with. Absolutely. But then but then some of you know but it has been the case conversely as well. So it's not that.
00;20;56;26 - 00;20;57;16
Cullen
You can't.
00;20;57;16 - 00;21;01;20
Clark
Be friends with somebody and work well, but it doesn't have to be there. Yeah.
00;21;01;27 - 00;21;14;15
Cullen
And there I mean there are some people I've worked with that I even, I would say, have strained stressful relationships with in stressful times on set where it actually turns out really well, though. I mean, and you look well.
00;21;14;18 - 00;21;16;10
Clark
Herzog and Kinski, my goodness.
00;21;16;10 - 00;21;25;29
Cullen
Non-Actors I can squeeze a great example and I was going to say Kubrick and a lot of, you know, even Shelley Duvall in The Shining where it was like it was basically bullying.
00;21;26;03 - 00;21;47;14
Clark
Well, and that's you know, and I want to talk about that. That's a great Segway. That's a great Segway, because, you know, Herzog speaks to something that, you know, I never want to put words in his mouth. And so I'm not you know, I'll never know exactly to to what extent he is suggesting this, but he talks about what's on screen is all that matters.
00;21;47;14 - 00;22;07;13
Clark
And I'm going to lean a little bit to the side that that there's an understood thing going on here, which is that it's understood, though, that that doesn't mean abusing people. That does it. You know, And yes, there are some pretty like mythically big stories of Herzog and Kinski in the past and, you know.
00;22;07;25 - 00;22;08;24
Cullen
Herzog trying to get him killed.
00;22;08;24 - 00;22;37;15
Clark
Right. Like Herzog and holding them at gunpoint, saying you can't, you know, finish this film. I vaguely seem to remember reading that that actually really didn't happen in that way. But certainly there's a lot of mythology around that. But I would hope that, you know, at his age now, with his level experience, I'm going to guess that he is you know, he's kind of there's an understood here, which is that, yes, what goes on screen matters, but it's also vital that the process does not mean abusing people.
00;22;37;26 - 00;22;58;24
Clark
And so I definitely don't think. Now, it's interesting. I don't know about you, Cohen. It was like when I was your age, I actually felt pretty differently. I cared a lot less about hurting people's feelings. I cared a lot less about how I treated people. And I really did kind of only care about the finished product. And I have really, really changed my tune on that.
00;22;58;24 - 00;22;59;16
Clark
As I've aged.
00;23;00;02 - 00;23;10;06
Cullen
Where I am. I know I think that it's I think honestly, it as cheesy as it sounds, positivity on set is like one of the most important ingredients.
00;23;10;06 - 00;23;10;28
Clark
And respect as.
00;23;11;04 - 00;23;37;10
Cullen
Well, not only in respects and everything, but not only because of the actual working environment on the set of that shoot. But people aren't going to want to come back and work with you again if you're if they have a shitty time on your set. Right. I mean, that's that's the bottom line is that if I treat people like crap and, you know, no matter how good the the final product is, unless I'm Stanley Kubrick, who got away with it because he was Stanley Kubrick, people aren't going to want to come back and work with you.
00;23;37;10 - 00;23;40;11
Cullen
And I think I think people often romanticize that kind of.
00;23;40;11 - 00;23;41;01
Clark
I think sometimes.
00;23;41;01 - 00;23;48;07
Cullen
I think I can be, you know, I can be Gordon Ramsay. I can be yelling at people and shouting at people because it's such a little alien.
00;23;48;16 - 00;23;58;11
Clark
It's like the crazy, you know, creative guy, the demanding leader, the, you know, ruthless kind of tyrant or dictator on set, you know, the director.
00;23;58;11 - 00;24;11;07
Cullen
And it does sort of go back to what we talked about a few episodes of go to where it was like Herzog was saying, you know, with my actor, Nicolas Cage, when he said, you know, can we meet up for lunch or something? And he just said, No, we go.
00;24;11;08 - 00;24;11;25
Clark
Yeah, we want.
00;24;11;26 - 00;24;13;01
Cullen
To just we'd stay separate.
00;24;13;01 - 00;24;15;19
Clark
Where's I hate this house, I think is what it was. Yeah.
00;24;16;01 - 00;24;36;01
Cullen
Whereas I'm very much the opposite. Like I very happily will go out with cast and crew after a shoot for a drink. And, you know, I think that it's so important to have very open lines of communication there and to and not only again, not only for what's on the screen, but just for the even just the safety of people.
00;24;36;01 - 00;24;37;28
Cullen
Like we've heard all these horror stories coming out.
00;24;37;28 - 00;24;38;19
Clark
Absolutely.
00;24;38;27 - 00;24;47;20
Cullen
Especially over the past few years where it's like, you know, had you just had open lines of communication so often, would those things have not been able to occur?
00;24;47;20 - 00;25;09;29
Clark
Yeah, I mean, you make a great point, Cohen, that there is a there's a logistical side, and I'll just reiterate it because it's vital how you treat people is going to have a profound impact on your ability to work in the future. And I don't care what whatever role you're in as you're an actor, if you're a director or if you're a DP, if you're, you know, anything, if you're a grip.
00;25;09;29 - 00;25;36;11
Clark
I mean, it doesn't matter how you treat people is important in the real world. It's a small industry. Even out here in L.A., I cannot tell you how many times I see the same people or how small the degrees of separation are between myself and other people. It's insane. It blows my mind. And this is one of the biggest markets in the industry anywhere in the world, and it's still really small.
00;25;36;25 - 00;26;05;13
Clark
So that's a good practical aspect. But of course, you know, not to get to preachy or anything, but my goodness, I mean, there's also a moral and ethical obligation here. I mean, if you know, I mean, it's just treating people with respect, being appropriately professional. That certainly doesn't mean you can't be friends with someone. But but treating people with respect, respect and having a courteous, professional working environment, I think is vital.
00;26;05;13 - 00;26;24;00
Clark
And even more I mean, just to get a tiny bit philosophical here, you know, I think a lot of people believe that the means justify the ends. Right. And that's kind of what you're saying when you say what matters is the only thing that matters is what's on screen. And that's basically just another way of saying the end, the ends justify the means.
00;26;24;00 - 00;26;45;25
Clark
And I actually don't believe that. I think it's the process of of making a film and the community that you create between the people that you're working with and the collaboration. And and even when you're done with the film and the community that that film creates with its audience is vital. And I think that that process how you, how you actually do that.
00;26;45;25 - 00;27;02;24
Clark
So the means has just such a huge impact on. Yeah. And to me that's kind of where it's all at anyway. When I'm done with a film is when I actually don't care about it anymore. That's actually what it's like, right? It's the process is all I care about.
00;27;03;20 - 00;27;05;14
Cullen
No, I mean I that's, I was actually you.
00;27;05;14 - 00;27;05;29
Clark
Know what I mean.
00;27;06;03 - 00;27;09;09
Cullen
To that. I don't really enjoy premieres.
00;27;09;09 - 00;27;12;12
Clark
Like that, right. It's like you enjoy life. You know.
00;27;12;14 - 00;27;35;02
Cullen
I do it because yeah, I like the process. I also to to just add on to that as well. I think it's the only situation where I think I think I would really agree with you know all that matters is on screen is really the technicalities. Like I don't care if the light, the shot is lit by an iPhone or the shot is lit by a, you know, an every, you know, 10,000 color light.
00;27;35;05 - 00;27;43;07
Cullen
But but when it comes to relationships and and I would say the like working environment. No, I think it's it's hugely, hugely important.
00;27;43;25 - 00;28;02;15
Clark
And I think you can have both I think. Right. You can you can do all that. And I would imagine I'm going to go out on a limb here. Not really haha, but I'm going to imagine working on Herzog set. Today's day and age is probably a profoundly respectful, courteous, professional, conducive environment. That's what I'm going to guess.
00;28;03;17 - 00;28;19;07
Clark
And so I think, yes, the what what's on screen matters. The film is important, but you can do that and I think you actually will even have better luck doing it if you treat everybody around you with respect and grace.
00;28;19;07 - 00;28;44;21
Cullen
Oh, absolutely. And I'm going to go back to this this kitchen analogy again, because I just I do sort of have very active, you know, proof of this, which is that when you are like I think a lot of people look at negative enforcement as the most powerful enforcement, that if someone's not doing their job and I show them that they're going to do their job.
00;28;44;21 - 00;28;45;17
Clark
Break out the way that.
00;28;45;17 - 00;28;48;20
Cullen
Well and again, and that's why I kind of brought up this like Gordon Ramsay type.
00;28;48;21 - 00;28;49;09
Clark
Of where it's like.
00;28;49;28 - 00;28;50;17
Cullen
You've got this.
00;28;50;17 - 00;28;51;05
Clark
Screaming.
00;28;51;05 - 00;29;02;24
Cullen
Idea of, yeah, where's and sure. Does he make great food? Absolutely. Do those people get their acid gear when when he screams at them? Sure. But I you know, I would never say this to Gordon Ramsay because he probably.
00;29;03;12 - 00;29;04;00
Clark
Wouldn't be you.
00;29;04;05 - 00;29;17;26
Cullen
But I would always be curious to know if he didn't do that, if someone made a mistake and, you know, not not accepted the mistake, but went up to them and said, hey, what do you need? Like, what do you need for me? How can I help? Or even just saying, like, Nope, don't panic, just do it again.
00;29;17;26 - 00;29;37;24
Cullen
Yeah. And that kind of thing. That would his kitchen run more efficiently? Would his, you know, workplace run more efficiently? Because I remember working when I was a bartender and the bar manager before me was quite the Gordon Ramsay type kind of thing where it's like very, you know, on the thing. And then when I started training people, I kind of took the opposite approach.
00;29;38;03 - 00;29;57;01
Cullen
And at least what I found and this is very anecdotal, but what I found was that there were less mistakes, that people weren't stressed out. You know, shaking a martini too long because they wanted to make sure that it was perfect. They they were calm. And that was the whole point of what I was trying to do was, you know, I'm I if there's one thing I can say, what I saw was I'm quite good at staying calm.
00;29;57;23 - 00;29;59;22
Clark
You seem to be friends. Them. Yeah.
00;30;00;17 - 00;30;14;03
Cullen
It's all of the they're just have a constant I.V. of THC or but no, really I think that I think that again, staying calm and I it's not to say that exactly all the time. That's why I carry around the big Ivy.
00;30;14;09 - 00;30;20;02
Clark
You know, I always wondered that like when you came over to visit, you had that, like, get picked up at the airport. I'm like, Well, no.
00;30;20;23 - 00;30;40;12
Cullen
Yeah, no. But I think that again, that that's kind of and that's not to say that I won't, you know, recommend someone or on a set that I won't say to someone, hey, you're not doing your job. But if someone makes an honest mistake and they're they're trying, there's no reason to get angry at them and to shout at them and to kind of, you know, make them feel like crap.
00;30;40;12 - 00;30;46;00
Cullen
Yeah. Because I think that often that just makes a worse final product because now they're freaking out. I You really do. They're stressed.
00;30;46;01 - 00;31;06;20
Clark
Yeah. You really do bring up a great point. I mean, I think that it is just as likely to say and we'll never know. But I agree with you on your hunch. But it's I think that it's very likely that somebody, a person like Gordon Ramsay is not successful because he treats people poorly. He's successful in spite of the fact that he treats people poorly.
00;31;06;20 - 00;31;16;22
Clark
And it would be interesting to see how he treats people when he's not on camera and has to live up to this. You know, caricature that he plays exactly when he's and.
00;31;16;22 - 00;31;23;24
Cullen
There's such a vast difference between the American and the British Kitchen Nightmares that way, too. But not to get into Ramsay's podcast. That's other talk.
00;31;23;25 - 00;31;47;12
Clark
About you you you you you said something that kind of reminded me a little bit of another aspect of this question or this this consideration. You talk about, you know, not treating people poorly as a means to get, you know, elicit different behavior, right. If they're slacking on set or not, you know, performing their job duties. You talk about negative versus positive, but something we haven't talked about, too.
00;31;47;12 - 00;32;17;02
Clark
And you mentioned Kubrick, and he did this manipulating actors to try to elicit different performances. I think that there's, you know, a really straw art for me personally. I think there is there. That's a very dangerous area to get into. And I know that there are his slippery slope. There's a very slippery slope. And I think that, you know, there are examples of directors in the past who I think manipulate actors in unethical and inappropriate ways to elicit performances.
00;32;17;02 - 00;32;43;20
Clark
And I would just on the record that I do not I would I don't want to be manipulated as an actor. I would not want to be manipulated in some kind of negative way. I think a director's job is to create a conducive environment for the actor to work. And going back to the importance of casting, hopefully you've cast someone who is able to give the kind of performance and emotional range that the story and character demands.
00;32;43;28 - 00;32;59;29
Clark
So hopefully that has been done. If you're having to really manipulate in significant ways, you're actor. I you might have not cast very well then I think very dangerous area there.
00;33;00;14 - 00;33;16;16
Cullen
And what I and when I say it's a slippery slope as well I mean that the what there's there's so many different levels to it Right. So for example in Alien when they were shooting Alien, Ridley Scott didn't tell the actors that the alien was going to foster the chest, which I think is.
00;33;16;25 - 00;33;17;21
Clark
Perfectly fine, because.
00;33;17;21 - 00;33;18;21
Cullen
Then you're getting a genuine.
00;33;18;21 - 00;33;22;26
Clark
That's an ethical reaction. Well, I don't even call that a manipulation, really?
00;33;22;26 - 00;33;43;27
Cullen
Yeah, it's more just a it's a it's a little you know, you're just you're just leaving out information so you get a reaction. Whereas a manipulation that I see as being both physically and emotionally dangerous would be something like on The Exorcist. When Friedkin told they believe it was Linda Blair that when she's ripped back, that they're not actually going to pull her back for the moment.
00;33;43;27 - 00;33;49;21
Cullen
They're just going to they're going to cut before her pull back and they're gonna swap right with their stunt double. Yeah. And then didn't tell her, and.
00;33;49;21 - 00;33;50;00
Clark
Then it.
00;33;50;10 - 00;33;54;28
Cullen
Pulled her back and she wound up, you know, having a huge neck injury because of it.
00;33;54;28 - 00;33;56;14
Clark
And that's what that was. It's like.
00;33;56;29 - 00;33;58;03
Cullen
That's unacceptable. Exactly.
00;33;58;04 - 00;34;20;12
Clark
If you're lying to your cast, you probably are stepping into some not so great areas that my personal if you can't be truthful. Right. And I think there's a difference like you could you know I don't know what Ridley Scott, of course, said but I can imagine many ways where you could leave something a secret and say, hey, guys, hey, cast, you know, you know the story.
00;34;20;12 - 00;34;42;06
Clark
You've read the script, something's going to happen here. But I don't want you guys to see it beforehand or know exactly when it's going to happen, because I really would like to have a spontaneous response that people can say, Yeah, okay, sounds great. But. But to put somebody in a position where they're going to be physically manipulated in a violent way, like the example you just gave from The Exorcist, it tend to lie to them.
00;34;42;17 - 00;34;57;12
Clark
And then and then that's I just think that's you know so maybe that's a good guideline if you're having to lie to people, you know, that's probably maybe you're getting into an area that at least I, I would personally not want to be in, not as an actor or as a director.
00;34;57;28 - 00;35;16;02
Cullen
Well, and again, it's it's to me it's just about communication. So, like I for example, I've had to film scenes were not full out fight scenes, but where characters get very physical with each other, whether it's like got push up against a wall or something like that. And I would never go to the actor that's doing the pushing and say, okay, go really far with it.
00;35;16;02 - 00;35;24;23
Cullen
I want to get this and not tell the other actor what I would do in that situation if I want it to be, isn't exactly as I go to the other actor who's getting pushed.
00;35;24;23 - 00;35;26;08
Clark
And how do you feel about this?
00;35;26;08 - 00;35;43;26
Cullen
Listen, how how real can we go? How comfortable are you with going? And if you're not, then absolutely, you know, say cut or just let me know or whatever. But what if we go if if you're actually, you know, shaking around a little bit? Is that okay? And then that actor is now going to go, yeah, that's right.
00;35;44;06 - 00;35;57;02
Cullen
Or they may not say no, but they're but, you know, most of the time they'll say, Yeah, that's fine. Thanks for talking to me. Now We have a open line of communication. I know that you know you, I can trust you. And that's a huge part of it, is just that you're not breaking the trust.
00;35;57;02 - 00;36;19;06
Clark
Of your actor. Right. And I think you're right. And allowing them to be a part of the conversation, to give them the information, to make a conscious choices, to not present lies to them. I think these are all very good general guidelines for remaining, you know, you know, maintaining an ethical, moral relationship with your actors. But, you know, clearly there are many examples.
00;36;19;06 - 00;36;39;11
Clark
I hope it's happening less and less. But clearly, there are many examples where that has not been the case in the past in some very famous and I think sometimes times it's been fatal. Sometimes absolutely. And it's been fatal before, too. And that's not even getting into the world of if there are, you know, simulated sex scenes or, you know, lovemaking.
00;36;39;11 - 00;36;40;02
Cullen
Oh, God, yeah.
00;36;40;02 - 00;36;52;25
Clark
Things like this. I mean, it's the the amount of precaution that should be taken in those situations. And the level of consent at every single minute detail is vital.
00;36;52;25 - 00;37;02;27
Cullen
And I mean, that's the thing about those things, too, is that like those scenes, if they're taken from a certain energy, can be a blast to shoot. It can be hilarious and you can have fun doing.
00;37;02;27 - 00;37;05;02
Clark
Because everybody's embarrassed anyway. It's like.
00;37;05;02 - 00;37;19;04
Cullen
Yeah, and you can just kind of you can, but, but it's this point where again, where you lose the trust of your actors and you start to manipulate. Yeah, that, that's kind of where and again, it's like I love scaring people. I love pranks of like hiding people's closets and jumping out and stuff like.
00;37;19;04 - 00;37;22;08
Clark
That are a little scary, though. I mean, you know, it's.
00;37;22;08 - 00;37;23;01
Cullen
Yeah, I mean, I you know.
00;37;23;09 - 00;37;26;04
Clark
It's true that your call, but I think, you know, it's behind.
00;37;26;04 - 00;37;27;06
Cullen
That a little bit. Norman Bates.
00;37;27;13 - 00;37;34;00
Clark
Right. Because let's try this. And, you know, Herzog talks about his role in Jack Reacher eight. Remember, he's like the main bad guy and he is that guy.
00;37;34;00 - 00;37;35;21
Cullen
Bite off the bite off the finger. Yeah.
00;37;35;21 - 00;37;53;28
Clark
But Herzog specifically talks about in this lesson how, you know, it's like his performance. He's like, I come from a place of this power. There's no reason for me to be emotional. There's no reason for me to, like, yell or anything. So I'm just calm and I feel like, is that is that you? COHEN Is that you call such a place of just like.
00;37;54;10 - 00;37;58;28
Cullen
You don't even you bite off his finger.
00;37;58;28 - 00;38;04;28
Clark
Oh, I love it, man. I love it. I'm sorry. I think I interrupted you. You were going to say. What were you? I don't even.
00;38;04;29 - 00;38;25;07
Cullen
Oh, no, I just just that that it's it's one of those things where it's like there were things like that that I again, I wouldn't mind, you know, doing too, or just to go back right to the beginning where it's like when I was, you know, I was never mean to my costar in that play. I was just doing things like, if she had a brownie, I'd open the brown and take a bite out of it or something like that.
00;38;25;07 - 00;38;43;24
Cullen
It would just kind of get the energy there and I would never, you know, intentionally hurt anybody or anything like that. And it's things like that where it's again, it and that's why I think it is it's it's both a slippery slope but also something you have to draw really clear lines on. Because if that ever went too far, then it's immediately something that has to be shut down.
00;38;43;25 - 00;39;05;11
Cullen
My yeah. Whereas, whereas if you know, even in let's go back to that alien anecdote where it's like if he you didn't tell them that there was going to be the whole blood effect and all that, which again, nobody was hurt and everything that but if one of the actors came up and said, listen, I have, you know, a really weak heart and I, you know, I, I feel unsafe or even just like.
00;39;05;18 - 00;39;06;22
Clark
And you've got to rethink.
00;39;06;22 - 00;39;15;03
Cullen
We have to rethink and you've got to go back. They're valid in thinking that and I've got to rethink what I did. But and that's why, again, it's so important to just know your actors.
00;39;15;08 - 00;39;16;29
Clark
I know, can sit.
00;39;17;00 - 00;39;17;12
Cullen
There.
00;39;17;21 - 00;39;39;11
Clark
And get concerned. Yeah. I you know, and this kind of segues into another we haven't touched on it yet, but Herzog benches in this lesson we're talking about working with actors here. You know, he talks about when he's, you know, most of his cast, when he cast professional actors, experienced actors, he's fairly hands off as far as how, you know, he's trusting.
00;39;39;11 - 00;40;01;29
Clark
Right. That these professionals And of course, Herzog has works with some extraordinary actors. I mean, he's been in a position for decades now where he can he can get high caliber actors. But when he works with a newer performer or less experienced performer, let's say, like Bruno Guest, for example, where he goes so far as to actually give the an actor line readings.
00;40;02;29 - 00;40;29;19
Clark
Bruno as of course, is, you know, a very unique of situation as a human being, much less performer. And so but I extrapolate that though, to just in general, you know, giving line readings or how to give feedback. I don't know what your experience or thoughts are. I guess in a scenario where you've got a complete just a completely actor and of course the can go it, That's such a unique experience.
00;40;29;19 - 00;41;00;07
Clark
I mean, Bruno was cast for, for the films he was in because of his unique personal experience being similar to the character's experience. But it's a very unique situation where the actual human being had experienced neglect and abuse and isolation, which mirrored the character. But I don't you know, there's not too many scenarios where I think I would have an inexperienced actor in a role, but I'm very much against line readings, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
00;41;00;07 - 00;41;00;19
Clark
All of.
00;41;00;19 - 00;41;22;05
Cullen
This. No, I've never I've never the closest I would say I've ever gotten to something like that would be, you know, not necessarily saying say it like this, but kind of going like, you know, if I'm talking the actor about it, you kind of go like, Yeah, and you kind of do the line out. But but I would never say like, do it exactly like say one word going.
00;41;22;16 - 00;41;25;07
Cullen
I suppose it is. But I mean, I would never, would never.
00;41;25;07 - 00;41;26;07
Clark
This is implied.
00;41;27;08 - 00;41;32;00
Cullen
Yeah, I would. But I mean what I mean is more than like if I'm doing that it's not on.
00;41;32;02 - 00;41;33;15
Clark
I, it's Oh okay.
00;41;33;15 - 00;41;44;01
Cullen
During a conversation prior kind of going like if they have a question to say like, you know, is this delivered sort of are you planning on this being delivered like this or like this? And I sort of go, Well, in my mind it kind of goes like this, but.
00;41;44;01 - 00;42;14;00
Clark
I usually, you know, I, I have gotten into the habit and, you know, I will admit that sometimes this can be challenging because it can take so very long. But what and and sometimes it can be frustrating, too. So you're always having to tailor how you do things with each individual personality, with each individual actor. But I will often ask questions instead of trying to, you know, try to guide people toward their own understanding and interpretation by asking questions.
00;42;14;00 - 00;42;36;20
Clark
And usually what I will focus on or the given circumstances in this story and I will try to point actors to focusing on these given circumstances, help them come to a refined or different interpretation of those given circumstances on their own. So one of the the the pros of this, of course, is that you're never having to give line readings.
00;42;36;20 - 00;43;06;29
Clark
You're not doing their job for them. You're eliciting and inviting their full interpretive artistic abilities. You're asking them to bring everything they possibly can to the table, but it can be extremely time consuming. And so generally it's, you know, in rehearsal, this is a great and I started doing this actually when I was directing theater. So I was working in a scenario where we had a lot of time in rehearsals and I would even work with actors one on one outside of rehearsals where appropriate.
00;43;06;29 - 00;43;32;23
Clark
But you know, film, you may not have this television. You definitely don't have this now. Yeah, it just does not exist. But there are variations on that theme. I mean, you can still include questions, you can still include pointing people to given circumstances and asking them to focus their interpretive abilities on that as opposed to, you know, I never try to focus on the performance right.
00;43;32;23 - 00;43;53;16
Clark
So I want you to do it like X-Y-Z, right? Like loud or like definitely not that. But I mean, I outcome is what I'm not trying to focus on. I don't want to try to tell the actor what type of output they should be existing from their performance, but rather I'm trying to inform their process so that they get to their own output, if that makes sense.
00;43;54;13 - 00;43;54;23
Cullen
Yeah.
00;43;55;15 - 00;43;57;05
Clark
So that's just my $0.02 on it.
00;43;57;21 - 00;44;20;02
Cullen
But no, exactly. I mean that's, that's and that's what I mean when I say that it's not to me something that it's like do it specifically like this. It's more of if they've got a question as to how when it was written, if if that is, if I wrote the script how it was written, you know what, what's the, the, the tenor of that line kind of how does it go?
00;44;20;02 - 00;44;36;04
Cullen
But but I also very, very opened it. If that doesn't work for that actor, that type of energy is like the antithesis to that person's delivery. Then I'd be like, okay, well, how do you feel? How do you feel it going? And what do you think your character would write or how do you think that line would be?
00;44;36;04 - 00;44;38;20
Cullen
We said in this context, or would they even say it?
00;44;38;28 - 00;44;55;11
Clark
And that's what I even try not to focus on. Like lines for. You know, I guess maybe this just comes from my experience as an actor and not to get too far down this rabbit hole of a path. And maybe in another episode we can talk about more down the road. But I'm not even I'm not worried about lines usually.
00;44;55;11 - 00;44;56;29
Clark
I never yeah, I think it's.
00;44;56;29 - 00;44;57;26
Cullen
More the idea never.
00;44;57;27 - 00;45;31;21
Clark
When I was like a brand new actor and I, I would worry about intonation and you know, it's all about lines and you know, how do what I say, the lines and all these kind of things. And I couldn't be more far from that now. I'm so focused on the given circumstances and the these memories that are created of these given circumstances and taken is kind of real memories and your homework process and then your emotional responses and reactions emanating from these memories that you've created for yourself right, given the circumstances in the script.
00;45;32;08 - 00;45;51;27
Clark
So I'm always trying to point actors to the creation of these quote unquote, memories from these given circumstance answers by helping them hone in on maybe things they hadn't seen in the script, or maybe they take an interpretation in a direction that wasn't conducive to the story at this time. So I really try to work with actors in that way.
00;45;52;11 - 00;46;01;06
Clark
But I, I mean, it's I honestly can't think of a time recently when I've been like, you're not saying the line right? You need to say it. Oh, no, no.
00;46;01;18 - 00;46;10;11
Cullen
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the only time that would ever really come up is if it's like so far off base. But even then, at that point, just reading the line to the person's not going, you.
00;46;10;11 - 00;46;11;08
Clark
Got to bring it down. Yeah.
00;46;11;08 - 00;46;12;15
Cullen
You have to have compensation.
00;46;12;15 - 00;46;31;27
Clark
Yeah. And you're going to have to that. It's tough though, I mean but because it's true, right? It's like if you're on a it depended on where you're at, you may not have time to do that. So just yeah, this is where working with actors, you know, finding a way to have rehearsal time, to develop a rapport, to get on the same page, their homework and your work as a director is so key.
00;46;32;10 - 00;46;32;26
Clark
So key.
00;46;32;27 - 00;46;53;05
Cullen
Yeah. And that's exactly what I mean, is that sometimes it's just quicker to change something. Yeah. Than to or to allow the actors to experiment for just like 5 minutes then to try and get that. Yeah. Right down concrete exactly as it is. So I do think yeah, there's, there's a really important element to just like, you know, the script isn't gospel.
00;46;53;14 - 00;47;22;01
Cullen
Um, be prepared to, as Herzog says, be prepared to throw out the script on set, which I, you know, I don't think I would do that to that far. But I do think that the the yeah, just in the trash. But you know I do think that there's there's a really important lesson there, which is just like it's not, you know, the the screenplays and movies are two different formats and sometimes something works in one format that doesn't necessarily work in the high.
00;47;22;18 - 00;47;59;06
Clark
Sarah Blueprint I think there are blueprint. Yeah, I know the exact improvise a bit to some extent for sure. Well, kind of like Segway a little bit here as we wrap up this lesson. I think this is the kind of the major content of Herzog's lesson. But he does talk about a few other things here. He talks about physicality and performance and example he uses is he talks about Nicolas Cage in Bad Lieutenant and how he worked with Cage on the physicality of his character, how Cage kind of and I think we've talked about this actually in another lesson, think he's brought this up actually a couple of times here so far.
00;48;00;05 - 00;48;22;16
Clark
But he talks about this kind of, you know, the crooked posture that Cage adopts and. Mm hmm. And how he worked through that. Let's see, he talks about wardrobe and props and he talks about a gray. And again, actually, we've talked about this, too, before the very similar like physicality between those two characters that they curse like very much like.
00;48;22;16 - 00;48;24;08
Clark
So he likes.
00;48;24;08 - 00;48;25;18
Cullen
That kind of be almost.
00;48;25;18 - 00;48;28;08
Clark
Yeah it's like crooked character Is it a crooked way.
00;48;28;28 - 00;48;35;00
Cullen
Yeah very make it very on the not not on the nose but very you know bringing that physicality forward.
00;48;35;00 - 00;48;44;04
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. It talks about the wardrobe and props that the wardrobes actually amazing and agree I love how the armor.
00;48;44;11 - 00;48;48;04
Cullen
And we know how Herzog feels about wardrobe.
00;48;48;04 - 00;48;53;25
Clark
Um let's see what else Let's see. He talks about you know finding a.
00;48;53;29 - 00;49;18;08
Cullen
Well I think if I can just point on physicality real quick, I do think that one of the things that I did, I didn't steal from Herzog, but I stole from Kurosawa, which is similar, and they sort of say similar things about this, is that Kurosawa used to have his actors in character choose some sort of physical quirk or tic to carry through the whole movie.
00;49;19;01 - 00;49;49;04
Cullen
So if it was somebody wringing their hands or, you know, that's a very again, that's very on the nose, but it could have been something as simple as, you know, someone has a twitch in their eye or someone when they walk one leg goes a little bit further than the other one and things like that where it's like just something that and for it was because when he grew up watching silent movies, it was an immediate way to recognize a character without necessarily seeing who they were sure upfront that you could see someone, you could tell who they were just by their silhouette, etc..
00;49;49;14 - 00;50;13;10
Cullen
And I think that that carries into a lot of what Herzog says, which is like, you know, nowadays we have such amazingly high resolution cameras that you don't really need to worry about not being able to recognize a person on screen, but that just having that physicality blend in with their their character choices can be such an incredible kind of way to identify characterization.
00;50;13;10 - 00;50;32;29
Clark
But it's a visual medium, right? I mean, yeah. So why not take advantage of the visual? You know, I'm a I'm all about density of storytelling. So, yeah, you know, any chance you have an opportunity and this is, you know, and I want to tie this end with the importance of casting, right? Be looking for these kinds of things.
00;50;33;08 - 00;50;55;23
Clark
You know, I think there's so much focus on lines, you know, lines, lines, lines. Do you have your lines memorized? We yeah. You know, at auditions, especially at, you know, kind of more amateur levels for both the director and the actor. It's so much about lines. Yes. And I just want to say, you know, really pay attention to an actress physicality.
00;50;55;23 - 00;51;14;17
Clark
See what they bring into the room when they audition. You can I think that you can often tell how much importance or, you know, have they done homework on the physicality of this character? You know, when the scene starts in the room, can you see them kind of change? Right? Do you get a sense that they've now changed into this character?
00;51;14;17 - 00;51;28;28
Clark
Did something happen? You know, make suggestions, give feedback in the room and see if they can adapt new physicality right in the moment? I think that'll give you a good sense of if that's something that they're working on in their homework, they're cognizant of. Yeah, so.
00;51;28;29 - 00;51;29;15
Cullen
Exactly.
00;51;30;04 - 00;52;01;16
Clark
You know, and then Herzog talks about finding a character's voice and this is something that, boy, you know, you could talk about for an extremely long time. We've already hinted at it when I was joking about you speaking so calmly because you are coming from such a place of power. But Herzog does bring up his example of his role in Jack Reacher and how he chose to to portray quietly that intensity of his character.
00;52;01;16 - 00;52;08;19
Clark
I don't really have a ton more to add to that except to say, of course, it's it's vital that it clear.
00;52;08;23 - 00;52;18;07
Cullen
I mean, there's some great examples of, you know, Kurt's in Apocalypse Now and things like that where it's not you don't always need to blow up the screen to too.
00;52;18;10 - 00;52;44;12
Clark
Definitely don't always blow up the screen. And I think, again, you know, just to kind of tie it back into the overall, you know, center of what this lesson is about is to definitely be looking at that as director when you're casting. Hathaway even if and this is, I think, key, you know, even if the actor has made right, because most of the time the are going to be coming in having worked off of sides, which are just a few pages, that's just a scene.
00;52;44;12 - 00;53;09;27
Clark
Yes. More often than not. Well well, well, more often than not. Your actors are not going to be have given the entire script. Now, I do want to make a comment about this, though. For me, I like to actually give the entire script to my actors before they audition. I know a lot of people don't do this. And in the in the industry, it's much more rare that you're going to get a script as opposed to just sides.
00;53;10;06 - 00;53;30;22
Clark
But I always give my auditioning actors the entire script because it's tells me a few things. One, did they take the time to read the whole script? And I think that's important. You know, it takes about, what, 45 minutes to an hour to read a 90 to 120 page script, give or take. And I'm not a fast reader.
00;53;32;00 - 00;54;05;29
Clark
So did they what was their investment? Did they take the time to do that and to it's going to I mean, there's no reason not to give your actors all the tools that they might need to do as much homework as possible so that they can really bring something into the room to you. And so, you know, as far as connecting this to finding a character's voice, really look to see what is the depth of the homework that an actor has done when they come in the room to audition, it'll give you an idea of their passion or, you know, do they like the are they involved invested in your project?
00;54;05;29 - 00;54;24;10
Clark
Did they connect with the strip script? Did they put enough work into it? You know, did they put the work in for the audition? I mean, it tells you a lot about an actor. So that's just, you know, and a lot of people work different ways that might not work for somebody else. But as an actor, I always appreciated the opportunities when I got the full script.
00;54;24;23 - 00;54;29;01
Clark
And as a director, I always give full script if if it's even remotely possible.
00;54;29;22 - 00;54;32;06
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah. So no, I agree completely.
00;54;32;12 - 00;54;39;11
Clark
Fantastic. Well, it we will end on an agreement then. Yes. All right. Well, shall.
00;54;39;11 - 00;54;40;06
Cullen
I throw something in.
00;54;41;09 - 00;55;18;21
Clark
Your. Okay, well, you've got a few seconds here as I wrap up. You can maybe disagree with me on something and we can end on that if if you so desire. But anyway, well, everybody out there listening. As always, we really appreciate it. We hope that you found this entertaining, enjoyable, informational, enjoyable background music as you change the brakes on your truck in the garage, whatever the case may be, we hope that you've enjoyed it and we will see you next time with episode 13, which is going to be a little bit of an extension of this one working with actors on set.
00;55;18;21 - 00;55;32;23
Clark
So I'm really looking forward to that one, to all these acting ones who have like a special place in my heart because of all my experience as an actor. So I'm really looking forward to this one as well. But Cohen, thank you so much as always for being. Thank you and everybody out there. We'll see you next time.
00;55;32;23 - 00;55;33;11
Clark
Take care.
00;55;34;05 - 00;55;48;13
Cullen
Bye bye.