Cullen
Hi everyone. I'm Cullen McFater and I'm joined by Clark Coffey and this is the Soldiers of Cinema podcast, the Werner Herzog podcast, where we talk about all things in his masterclass and go through those lessons as well as his broader scope of cinema. And today we're going to be talking about lesson 12, which is camera techniques.
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Clark
Such as.
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Cullen
Spatial orientation of the audience. Yeah, it's going to be great, believe it.
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Clark
So I just want to say like a little like a just a sorry to interrupt, but just a little like I just want to pat ourselves on the back a little bit here that we are on episode 11, I think maybe ten would have been the episode we should have been like, it's kind of an anniversary even number.
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Clark
But I just want to say here in episode 11, I'm pretty excited to me too. It's good to be here again with you.
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Cullen
Cohen Yeah, it's great. Yeah, but this is a really interesting lesson, too.
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Clark
Because it's hugely important. Yeah, it's.
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Cullen
Hugely important, but it's not. I think it's another one of those lessons where it's like the name of it, Camera technique techniques might kind of trick you and make you think it's about something else.
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Clark
Because you kind of right. You think of like when I think when I, when I think of camera techniques, right. I'm thinking, okay, like much more technical than what Herzog talks about in this class. I'm thinking about maybe like, camera movements. I'm thinking I mean, yeah, much more technical than what he discusses here. I feel like what he discusses here is actually really so much more about your actors and your set and manipulating those things spatially as opposed to camera techniques, in my opinion.
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Clark
I think.
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Cullen
Yeah, it's not about like Dolly zooms and all that stuff. There's a bit of that. I mean, there's a bit of stuff about, there's a little bit how you can use the camera to really, you know, either orient or disorient the audience. But you're right, it's a lot more about, I would say, the geography of scenes and spaces and how you can use the camera to show those things and use your actors in relation to the camera.
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Clark
And it's hugely important. I mean, you know, I don't know that I'm not asking necessarily that we pick some specific film out to be mean. Maybe we should not do that. But I'm sure all of us, like you've seen a film, I've watched films where the spatial orientation just gets jumbled and you're not quite sure like how spatially characters are in relation to each other.
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Clark
And it's really I mean, it just completely takes you out of the story, you know.
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Cullen
Because then you're distracted by.
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Clark
It. And I think you're totally right, because now you've switched from, okay, I'm in the story to now you're like, Wait a minute, where is this? Where are they right now? What? What They were they were just at the house. And now is this a different way? Huh? Well, and another.
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Cullen
Thing that's interesting that Herzog mentions almost immediately is the 180 degree rule, which, of course, is kind of that.
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Clark
It's one of the most intimidating that's like a.
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Cullen
Real danger to anyone that's learning about film.
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Clark
I'm going to put you on the spot. Do you want to describe it real briefly?
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Cullen
Sure. Yeah. So just in.
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Clark
Case. Just in case.
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Cullen
Essentially, it would be that if I were, you know, the most simple way to describe it is if I'm having a conversation with Clarke and we're facing each other, that if the camera is to my right shooting Clark over the over my shoulder or something like that, that you would dry 180 degree line between me and Clark and the camera could not cross over that.
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Cullen
And so what that does is it makes sure that if now if say again, we're getting in over the shoulder of my right shoulder into Hugh Clark and then if we were to cut to the same angle from you over your right shoulder, and to me, it would look like both of us were staring in the same director.
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Clark
Eyeline. Exactly. Or eyeline, if you if you don't if you jump that line. Now, I lines look odd. And now the spatial relationship between those two characters, as it's seen by the audience, is totally confusing.
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Cullen
You're like and I sort of I call it the primitive law of filmmaking. Yeah. And that's not meant in a bad way, but it's a simple, simple rule that is kind of necessary to keeping the audience in tune with geography. And I would also say too, that there are there are certainly ways to break it. However, there are very specific there's almost these like list of things that you have to check off if you are going to break it like, okay, do we see the change?
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Cullen
Is it clear or is there a clear like body of movement that's that's moving into the next shot that then continues there? So, you know, at least a directional like kind of, you know, focus of that movement from an actor or something like that. There's there's very specific things that you could do to break it. But if you break it without doing those things.
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Clark
It's going to definitely elicit, right? It's going to be quite jarring to an audience for sure. And most people, they won't even be able to necessarily say audiences would might not necessarily catch weight. You know, lines aren't matching what's going on. I think they just jump the line, but they're going to say, whoa, this feels weird to me.
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Clark
What's going on? Are they talking to each other anymore or they like talking to somebody else?
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Cullen
Like, are they staring? And they say, well, it turns from a conversation to somebody looking like they're in an audience, like discussing, you know, facing one place.
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Clark
And, you know, it's and it's I don't I'm going to like, go out on a limb here. I don't know that I have the vocabulary to articulate this, like how you would do this perfectly to kind of verbally explain this visual thing. But, you know, one of the most difficult things to film is like a scene where you've got four or five people sitting at a table eating, talking.
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Clark
Well, you know, it's when you've got so many different lines, you've got so many different people in this compressed, dense area of space and everyone is kind of, you know, at the same vertical height, everybody's sitting down. It can get really challenging.
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Cullen
Well, there's three I almost kind of describe it as there's three different ways. You know, of course, there's more than three, but there's three really common ways of dealing with something like that.
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Clark
Right.
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Cullen
The first one, I would say is just locking those characters down and doing the kind of mental work to make sure that you know where everyone's eye lines are and the camera's locked down and you just, you know, which can be super difficult move. That did it really well recently. That was Knives Out, which has a huge cast of characters, good examples where people are sitting in, you know, rooms together.
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Clark
Yes.
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Cullen
Like I can't imagine trying to focus on who's talking to who, when, where, what. But it's.
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Clark
Very clear. But yeah, but it does seem to facilitate. Well they do a very good job. Right.
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Cullen
And the second one I would say is Tarantino does it in reservoir Dogs around the table where the camera's actually spinning around the table at all times.
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Clark
Yes.
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Cullen
That momentum.
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Clark
Yes, almost.
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Cullen
Keeps it moving. And even if there are, it almost kind.
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Clark
Of and it's Wiest and Letts and, you know, just in case it's been a while since people have seen Reservoir Dogs. If it has been a while, you should go back and see it. It's a great film. But yeah, he keeps it very wide. So you're you're always, you know, whoever's talking to each other, both characters are always in the shot.
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Cullen
Yes.
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Clark
So that is obviously another way to do it. If you can then both characters, then their spatial orientation is obviously quite clear.
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Cullen
Yeah. And he, he also one of the things that he doesn't that scene which makes it much easier if you're trying to do this is that even when the two characters are talking each other, oftentimes the character who's speaking is speaking to everybody. So they can sort of go back and forth between the characters. And even if you cut to them talking to one character and then suddenly they're talking to another in the next shot, it makes sense because you could just assume, okay, he turned his head right?
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Cullen
The last way that I usually see or that is kind of commonly seen is kind of something that Bong Joon Ho does a lot, which is just doing a oner and not a moving oner, but just setting up the characters. If they're sitting at a table sort of.
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Clark
Wise, like Last.
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Cullen
Supper, like where they're all on one side. And the geography in this tableau is very interesting and they sort of talk like that.
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Clark
Kind of Wes Anderson esque. Kind of very theatrical. Yeah, very theatrical.
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Cullen
Which can work really well and honestly in terms of establishing geography is probably the easiest, but it can be very difficult to get a shot like that to look good. And it takes a lot of talent to kind of make it look like.
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Clark
It is intentional. It is very difficult. And it's I would say I would I would say, look good. That's one thing. It's going to automatically create a style for your film if you're shooting those types of tableau type shots, that's really difficult. I mean, it's going to automatically, you know, put a twist on the style of the film that you may not want or may not be appropriate or, you know, but I, I mean, I, I go back kind of Wes Anderson, you look at all of his films, too.
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Clark
Obviously, there's more than this one component that makes up his style. But those kind of symmetrical tableaux, everybody kind of in one shot that he does so much of, It's kind of one of the things that first jumps out of my mind. But it's it's hard to not have that impact your style very significantly if you're shooting that way.
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Cullen
Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, those are kind of interesting ways of shooting. I think, as you said, these these wide, even if it's not necessarily people sitting at a table, as I mentioned, in Knives Out, sometimes it's just like people in a living room on couches and chairs and stuff. And they're not necessarily in a circle either. But that's such a key, key, fundamental thing to understand is eye lines.
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Cullen
And because it's, you know, there's nothing worse than watching and it doesn't even begin to say student film because a lot of bigger budget movies do do this. When you have a group of characters speaking and it just makes no sense, like who's playing who? Where is that person looking? Well, why is that person suddenly talking to that person when in the last shot they were looking at that person or they were even in a completely different position?
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Cullen
Yeah, it can be really difficult to master.
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Clark
I mean, and so I think, you know, you and I both agree, and I think pretty much anybody would agree. Yes, this is important. Do you have anything I can kind of share a little bit about what I've done to kind of work on this for myself, if you might want to share some of what you've done? I think, you know, first and foremost, I think as someone who's a fan of film, I've watched film, you know, since I was knee high to a grasshopper and and have just steeped in it, you know, visual storytelling.
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Clark
And so you start to pick up things. But of course, this is something you can practice when you're shooting and you don't even have to necessarily have a film, you know, a story that you're shooting. You can get some friends together without a script and you can start shooting conversations and you can start practicing this stuff just in the comfort of your own home.
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Clark
I don't know if you've ever done this. I've done it on some complicated shots with a lot of characters, and especially when I've got some action where I create an overhead and basically like a schematic or like a blueprint, I guess from the letter. Yeah, yeah. And I've actually done that before just to kind of make sure, okay, I've got this kind of, you know, really thoroughly visualized in my head.
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Clark
I understand, you know, where a character's going, where I'm going to put the camera, and then I can kind of visualize that, you know, what the edited result is going to end up looking like. And that's helped me a lot on set. So I don't get confused because it, you know, even when you've had a lot of experience, which I'm not even saying I've had, I've definitely had moments where I'm on set and I'm like, okay, wait a minute, Whoa, whoa, whoa.
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Clark
You know, like, as okay, hold on. Now, where do we, you know, how is this going to how do we need to set up the camera here or set up the characters, too, to not get things confused. But those are some things that I've done. I think there's even apps that are free or near free that make visualizing, you know, shots like this very simple on for iPads or iOS or something like that.
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Clark
But any suggestions you might have or, you know, ways that I found have been effective, I think a lot of it is supportive. But I was going.
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Cullen
To say it's a boring answer for me. It's just prepare. Yeah, I think, you know, shortlisting and yeah, and just getting it down sometimes not as like I wouldn't necessarily say that I storyboard very frequently.
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Clark
Right. Me neither.
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Cullen
Utilizing a type sort of a proto storyboard for things like this where, like you said, where it's maybe it's not necessarily the actual shot's too shot on the, on the storyboard.
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Clark
It's like an overhead map. Yeah. For me, it's like literally an overhead. And I just have like circles for characters and, you know, triangle for the camera. Yeah. And I just, you know, simply like the space that, I mean, I mean, it's a literally like a blueprint. And I'm just making sure, you know, and I can kind of have axes drawn and I'm kind of like, okay, you know, I've got X number of characters and here's who's going to be speaking and here's where they're moving.
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Clark
And, you know, but yeah, a lot of it is kind of, I think just doing it over time, you start to get there, but hopefully you're the DP that you're working with is also there to help. Just make sure, you know, yes, they're not going to make mistakes.
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Cullen
That's what's funny is that scenes like these can often be the longest to shoot. Yeah, because not only do you have to work at the spatial orientation of the camera in relation to the actors, you also have to make sure that at every angle there's no lights in the shot, there's no reflections.
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Clark
There's no.
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Cullen
Equipment in the background. For some reason. I mean, I was a big challenge with the Hitchcock movie that we just made, right? Was getting both reflections out of windows and being able to light the room without, you know, changing lighting to such a degree. When we turn around the camera to the other angle, Yeah. Suddenly, you know, you have to figure, okay, that light was there.
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Cullen
Now we've got to move it over here. But that looks too different from the last shot. If that source was coming from there. But can be very it can be a really big headache. And that's why.
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Clark
You know, you're bringing up a really good point. Let's talk about this a little bit more because, you know, up until this point, we've basically been talking about the spatial orientation of characters. Mm hmm. But you're talking but but there's so much more. Right. You're you're motivated lighting, like where is lighting coming from, keeping that consistent, you know, still maintaining in a in a properly lit scene to the esthetic that you're working to achieve or just, you know, for the sake of competency to have it lit.
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Clark
Well, as you as you're turning the camera around and moving things back and forth to to make sure that these other aspects are consistent spatially as well. An audience may not be able to pick out exactly what's up. But if light start to come from all different areas, you know, in its like windows seem to disappear and reappear on different sides of things, that's definitely going to, I think, pull people out of the story.
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Cullen
And I think it's that that amateur thing that everybody has done when they start making movies, which is just like, okay, we've got a light over here for this angle and then the reverse angle. We're just turning the light around.
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Clark
Well, just turn it.
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Cullen
Yeah, That's like, well, where's that light?
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Clark
You know, like, yes.
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Cullen
The best lighting setups are the ones that you have to do very, very little change to. If the angle switches that you, that you light the space like it's right, you know, it's authentic and it's real and you're kind of in there right. And I think that the other thing, too, that that really helped me with the Hitchcock movie in particular and is is if you have the space available to you in advance is I did an entire pre-viz of the entire movie.
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Cullen
So absolutely every single shot I shot and I lit as as it would be in the movies that I knew, you know, okay, I'm standing here for this shot and then it gets a reverse on me. The lighting has to be the same. So I've got a light hitting the back of my neck because you see me in both shots.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
Where can I put the light? That's not going to be seen in either kind of things like that. That and then again, because I was doing a previous and I was actually seeing you worked at camera, I was able to, you know, spend a night literally just moving things around and making sure that it worked. So then the crew got there and I could just be like, okay, well, this needs to be there, there, there.
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Cullen
There was none of that kind of like trial and error on.
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Clark
Yeah, well, and I will say though, to, you know, on the flip side, on the flip side, I mean, we've talked about kind of, you know, spatial orientation, geography, you know, just maintaining consistency such that you're not breaking cinematic grammar and taking people out of the story. But there's also, you know, this there's a great opportunity here in this, the spatial orientation of all of your everything in your mise en scene.
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Clark
Right? That these are great opportunities for storytelling. The position of your character is, you know, relative to each other, there's so much that you can do there to convey more story. This character sitting above or standing above another character, how far characters are from each other this has you know, it tells us a huge amount. Is there a big brass, intimate scene, you know?
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Clark
Right. Is there you know, is there are there objects between two characters? Are there eye lines occluded or, you know, are they speaking through? I mean, there's just so much that you can do with this.
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Cullen
And that's a great point to play with the the camera as a third character to Yeah. Is to you know, if the character's supposed to feel cold and kind of sterile, then zoom in on them from a distance and don't have the camera near them. Whereas if they're supposed to be warm and welcoming, then.
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Clark
Right there.
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Cullen
Is get get closer to them and things like that. And the Coen brothers are really great at doing that because so many of their scenes, they're, they're kind of dialog shot over shot scenes that are very, very basic scenes when you think about it geographically. But they still exactly what you said. You use those opportunities to tell stories.
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Cullen
So because so many of those scenes in the Coen brothers kind of style is to make things very not intimate between two characters, very awkward, very kind of stranger. Exactly strange.
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Clark
So what they.
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Cullen
Do is often plop the camera between the characters and then just use wide lenses so it feels like they're further away from the camera. They actually are, which is, I think, quite genius, but very simple.
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Clark
Well, it's also, you know, there's great opportunities for suspense, for foreshadowing, great opportunities to kind of set up story or plot points so that you can knock them down or pay them off later on. You know, in our brief conversation prior to recording here, you were talking about a Hitchcock flick specifically. Tell us a little bit about that Shadow of a Doubt, which is an 1843 film by Hitchcock that was a great example.
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Clark
I felt like where he had kind of established the geography of that of the house, of the setting, and used that as well. Why don't you just go ahead and kind of reiterate some of what you were talking about earlier? I thought that was a great example.
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Cullen
Well, I'd say it's it's super important in any genre, but in horror especially or in thrillers or something, it's supposed to, you know, scare an audience. It can be super, super vital to really lay out geography so that you can use that to your advantage to scare people afterwards and things like that. And in shadow of a doubt, you've got essentially the movie takes place in a small town, but primarily in a house, and the house has two entrances.
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Cullen
It's got a main floor entrance at the front and then a second story entrance on the back, which is up a series of stairs. And what Hitchcock does is very early on in the movie, establishes the two entrances to the house and one as being kind of a safe entrance, that being the front door that the good people come through and the other being.
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Clark
The good, the.
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Cullen
Bad entrance that the the killer comes through, which is her uncle. Yeah. And that's not a spoiler because it's very much established. Right.
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Clark
Because I think in 1943. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We did not going to have that spoiler alert. Maybe, maybe we'll go back and we'll put you know, it's only been over 70 years.
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Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
Right. Only about ten years.
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Cullen
But yeah. So you and so what you wind up having is that because we understand the geography of the house so well that later on you can use sound or Hitchcock does use sound to establish when danger is near because we know that this staircases at the back of the house, we know it creaks and we know the only person that uses it is this killer who then you know, there's moments where they're in the house and they're not paying attention and suddenly you hear this creak.
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Cullen
You know exactly where the character's coming in, you know where our characters need to be. So Hitchcock is able to then put them in different places in the house where you're going, Well, why are you going there? Because he's coming in right there. And that's really, you know, it's a.
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Clark
Great example of tension. Yeah, it's it's a great example.
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Cullen
And I think that even just like you said, that this this spatial orientation, again, just to more on a broad level of like horror movies in general so often, is it about that about, you know, how many horror movies take place in houses where the characters are newly moved in or something.
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Clark
And.
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Cullen
The first scene is them walking around the house and going, Oh, this is my room, this is my room, this is my room. And you get this.
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Clark
Hotel guy's.
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Cullen
Idea of like, Yep, exact of poltergeist.
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Clark
Great.
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Cullen
The average this is is of course the there they don't you don't see them moving in but they're in a house that is kind of being rented for the mother the movie acting career and you like you know how many times can you picture that that long hallway in a house and it's like geography can be so important for for horror, I mean, as it is for any genre, but it's just a great example of how to use it in genre for sure.
00;20;23;15 - 00;20;25;13
Cullen
Well, it for it to your example or your vantage.
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Clark
At the risk of getting way off track, you talk about horror and the importance of of spatial orientation and being clear on it. The Shining is a very interesting film to talk about in.
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Cullen
Disorientating.
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Clark
Too. And so. Right, which has which. Hitchcock also talks about, you know, so here this whole time we're kind of talking about the importance of of being clear and communicating, you know, that spatial orientation clearly. But there are definitely points in time where it could be beneficial to disorient your. Yeah. Your audience. And the lesson here in Herzog's lesson, he uses the example of lessons of Darkness where, you know, he's filming this just extraordinarily.
00;21;08;16 - 00;21;33;18
Clark
I mean, I it's so horrific and and just awesome. And the real meaning of that word, the scope of this and what's happening is just it's surreal. It's like you can't even take this in. And I think, you know, if he were to have tried to capture that more in a journalistic sense, I just can't imagine that it would have had the kind of impact that it had, you know, how he actually did the film in a very special way.
00;21;33;18 - 00;21;49;09
Clark
But that disorientation, I think, is so beautiful in that film because what's happening is so disorientating. It's like it's just it's like you can't even I can't even hardly articulate, I mean, to just see the world on fire and these fields of oil just burning it in and is describe it.
00;21;49;09 - 00;21;51;04
Cullen
Being shot like it's an alien.
00;21;51;04 - 00;21;51;16
Clark
Right.
00;21;51;20 - 00;21;53;12
Cullen
Witness to this stuff.
00;21;53;12 - 00;21;53;27
Clark
Right.
00;21;53;28 - 00;21;58;12
Cullen
It's so there's no explain explanation of the events. There's no.
00;21;58;12 - 00;21;59;16
Clark
No, no. There's no story.
00;21;59;19 - 00;22;09;01
Cullen
There's no horrible context. Exactly. There's it's just this probably the most bizarre landscape you could think of.
00;22;09;01 - 00;22;09;25
Clark
It's an abstract.
00;22;09;25 - 00;22;14;11
Cullen
Oil fields just being, you know, burst into flames. But it looks like living hell.
00;22;14;11 - 00;22;16;13
Clark
It's incredible. So it uses.
00;22;16;13 - 00;22;20;09
Cullen
That to his advantage, most certainly, especially when the camera flips upside down. There's that thing.
00;22;20;17 - 00;22;24;14
Clark
Not where it's where the fire is shooting down out of the. Yeah, yeah, right.
00;22;24;15 - 00;22;33;29
Cullen
And suddenly everything is like it's, it's as he puts it and very literally the world is turned completely upside down. Yeah. Which is a great example of, you know, exactly what we're talking about.
00;22;34;03 - 00;22;47;20
Clark
Agreed. And so that's, you know, an example he uses. But you know, to go back to horror, I mean in The Shining where you know, and there's a lot of kind of mythology about this film and a lot of, you know, urban myths and a whole lot of stuff going on. So we don't have to get into too much.
00;22;47;20 - 00;23;00;23
Clark
But I mean, and I'm not an expert scholar of the film, but I think he does and Kubrick does interesting things with the the spatial orientation of of hallways and rooms and things. Right. That's kind of not quite right. And the way.
00;23;00;24 - 00;23;02;03
Cullen
The maze is different in.
00;23;02;03 - 00;23;03;24
Clark
Every shot. Yeah, I think.
00;23;03;24 - 00;23;06;25
Cullen
They changed the layout of the maze in every single scene that it's in.
00;23;07;00 - 00;23;21;21
Clark
Right? It is. And so there are definitely moments where, you know, to shake things up into, you know, if the story calls for, you know, some confusion, that could be potentially a great way to illustrate that visually. But.
00;23;21;21 - 00;23;41;04
Cullen
Well, here's an example of that Very close to me right now that I can speak to very well is just a feature that I'm working on right now, which is so to put into context the difference between disorienting and orienting an audience. The initial draft of the script that we had done, my main concern was how disorienting it was.
00;23;41;04 - 00;23;58;17
Cullen
There was a lot of running from the backyard to the front yard, you know, up the stairs, down the stairs, all this stuff. And I was like, We need a way to orient the audience to this house because it's not intentional there. It's completely unintentional. Just it was the character needing to go to places and swallowing and it felt really disoriented.
00;23;59;09 - 00;24;31;14
Cullen
So we wound up just changing out the whole intro of the movie so that we do learn where everything is and what's going on. And then later on though, you can use that to disorient an audience by changing things, just like in The Shining, where whether it's, you know, I'm not there's nothing in the movie that actually physically changes, like to the degree that it does in The Shining where, you know, hallways change and things like that, but just changing the like, you know, it goes from day to night and it's pitch black and soft and you don't know what's going on and things like that that you know, you're you're just you're intentionally disorienting,
00;24;31;14 - 00;24;39;24
Cullen
the audience for a response. Whereas that can be very different from unintentionally. So, yes, like in a lot of action movies where you've got the shaky cam and.
00;24;39;24 - 00;24;58;26
Clark
Oh God, in horrible editing and yeah, don't get me started on that. It's this is one of my biggest pet peeves and frustrations with it. You and I were actually kind of discussing Marvel movies for a minute here before we started recording. And it's, you know, sadly and I guess I get why, especially in television, because it's so much cheaper.
00;24;59;03 - 00;25;12;13
Clark
It's so much easier to to just shoot action, chop it up into tiny little pieces and have a shaky cam and a bunch of quick edits and use that to impart the the vital density and the in the into.
00;25;12;16 - 00;25;14;07
Cullen
Doing intensity with air quotes.
00;25;14;09 - 00;25;25;27
Clark
Right. But but of course to actually have you know long shots and and really long wide shots and actually see what's going on requires I mean it's just much more difficult to shoot but yeah that's a whole other.
00;25;26;07 - 00;25;39;01
Cullen
And I do actually want to mention in close relation to this that he's kind of got a bad rap, but he's a very interesting director to study because oftentimes of the things that he likes. But Michael Bay.
00;25;39;25 - 00;25;40;04
Clark
Is a.
00;25;40;04 - 00;25;43;21
Cullen
Huge West Side story is Michael Bay's favorite movie.
00;25;43;23 - 00;25;44;09
Clark
Okay.
00;25;44;28 - 00;26;07;26
Cullen
He he loves West Side Story. And what's interesting about Michael Bay is that you can actually see the way that he uses the geographic setups in a song like America in West Side Story in his action scenes. And that's honestly, even though he does kind of have this stereotype about him, about about shaky cam and kind of quick edits and things like that, I actually rewatched the first time Transformers recently.
00;26;07;29 - 00;26;09;20
Clark
Okay, I'm surprised.
00;26;09;25 - 00;26;21;07
Cullen
Weirdly enough, it's quite geographic. Like, it makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of cuts in these action scenes. There's a lot of shaky cam. Yeah, but he does a lot of work to establish where everything.
00;26;21;07 - 00;26;33;20
Clark
Is when I feel like he keeps it clear. Huh? Which is really interesting. I can't speak to it myself. I don't think I've actually is that the one was saying Yeah, Shiloh, I may have actually seen it when it first came out or, you know, I.
00;26;33;21 - 00;26;35;26
Cullen
Yeah, I don't think I'd seen it since it came out. I mean.
00;26;35;26 - 00;26;38;08
Clark
I don't even know. How old is that movie now for.
00;26;38;09 - 00;26;49;26
Cullen
2007, I think it came out. Wow. And I saw it in theaters when it came out. And I think that I haven't seen it pretty much since then, but I was expecting going into it a lot of exactly what we're talking about in the negative sense.
00;26;49;26 - 00;26;50;12
Clark
Which is.
00;26;50;12 - 00;26;59;23
Cullen
Don't make sense. But he actually and I think I owe it a lot to his love of West Side Story and these Golden Age musicals where it's like I mean, if you when you get.
00;26;59;23 - 00;27;00;11
Clark
Down, well, that's a.
00;27;00;11 - 00;27;07;12
Cullen
Beautiful thing filming these things and this in the same way, you know, one's an action scene and one's a big dance sequence, but they're both massive set pieces with lots of moving.
00;27;07;12 - 00;27;09;23
Clark
With lots of movement. Yeah, that's a good point.
00;27;09;23 - 00;27;16;16
Cullen
I sense that he likes it, Whereas on the other spectrum of this, the Man of Steel movies, those newer Superman.
00;27;16;25 - 00;27;17;26
Clark
Which I've not seen any.
00;27;17;26 - 00;27;30;24
Cullen
Of those I've not seen since they can't theaters. But the final fight in Man of Steel is kind of a historical famous example of like not making any sense. You're just kind of throwing people into buildings and.
00;27;30;25 - 00;27;31;09
Clark
Yeah, like.
00;27;31;09 - 00;27;32;21
Cullen
Just dust and it's just.
00;27;32;21 - 00;27;46;21
Clark
Every right and you just have these cuts that are, you know, quarter of a second long with just a fist and a foot. And I've not seen it, but I've seen, you know, similar other, you know, other examples like this where it's just condoning lack of killing. I mean, it's clear that they just filmed a bunch of fighting.
00;27;46;27 - 00;28;10;17
Clark
They took a bunch of takes. They just chopped up a bunch in this place like these, you know, fractions of a second line. And usually you've got a lot of inserts and a lot of, you know, to try to impart the impact of, you know, fists and feet, whatever else. And it's just, Ah, yeah. And then of course there are other examples of, of extraordinary there's a couple of like what was the is it, is it old boy.
00;28;10;18 - 00;28;12;07
Clark
The original one. Is that where there's like.
00;28;12;07 - 00;28;14;24
Cullen
Some the hallway. Yeah there's a hallway hallway. And it.
00;28;14;24 - 00;28;19;13
Clark
I think was a daredevil kind of copied that scene and one of their.
00;28;19;13 - 00;28;35;02
Cullen
Yeah I never watched your show but I know that senior time you know what I we ended the season with like a one hour kind of thing that was inspired by watching it again. And that's why action. That's why I kind of wanted to talk about action horror, because there are two movies that are very easy to kind of point out the technique behind.
00;28;35;08 - 00;28;59;07
Cullen
Yeah, but you even look at the difference between something like, you know, you know, let's talk about a very famous movie, Star Wars. The difference between the fight between something like that Luke Invader fight and Empire when they're on Cloud City and then it's very methodical. Every shot is planned out. Everything makes sense. You know, a sweep of movement in one direction, matches with the next shot and things like that.
00;28;59;11 - 00;28;59;21
Clark
Right.
00;28;59;29 - 00;29;13;29
Cullen
And then you look at some of the fights from the prequel trilogy and they're just all over the place. It's it's very much turns into that more kind of Marvel style of filmmaking where, as you said, you're just kind of getting a series of VFX plates and then cutting them all together.
00;29;14;08 - 00;29;15;04
Clark
And hoping that it.
00;29;15;04 - 00;29;25;28
Cullen
Mixes. And oftentimes, you know, it may look similar and look congruent, but there's something missing. I think, subconsciously where you're just kind of going, Well, that doesn't really feel like real.
00;29;26;07 - 00;29;50;18
Clark
I feel I think it would and it kind of honestly, I mean, I think a lot of that translate to boredom, frankly. I think, again, I, I don't think that the average audience, you know, you're I mean, is it going to be able to articulate they they're not formulated in their mind. Oh, you know, that that this there's like a spatial geography problem here and you know or these edits are so quick and everything is such a they're such close shots.
00;29;50;18 - 00;30;02;03
Clark
I can't tell who I mean, it's unlikely they're going to articulate things like this. But I think it just like fundamentally it just manifest itself as like boredom. They're like, I'm not in this. I'm not into the story. I don't know. Yeah. And that's.
00;30;02;03 - 00;30;08;13
Cullen
The big danger about, you know, just to go back to geography is that I think that people check out if things don't make sense.
00;30;08;13 - 00;30;09;04
Clark
Right, or.
00;30;09;04 - 00;30;16;27
Cullen
Non intentionally make sense because I think that, you know, something like the Shining that does it really well and intentionally and right is planned out and methodical about it then that draws an.
00;30;16;27 - 00;30;35;05
Clark
Audience in and it's worthy and it's within an infrastructure of understanding. It's it's not that you don't understand everything. It's like you've created like you've you've taken the time. You've created an infrastructure of understanding your audience knows what's going on, but there's a space, there's a slow bang where there's this world. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00;30;35;17 - 00;30;52;08
Cullen
But, but no, I think that again, yeah, you can have an audience check out at the snap of a finger if, if you don't really pay attention to that stuff because you're only going to, you know, film is technically a passive medium. You're not thinking about every single shot as you see it. It's not like reading where you have to read, write it.
00;30;52;12 - 00;31;10;14
Cullen
You're just you're you're being flashed images at your face that your brain makes sense of. And if your brain is now requiring you to actively make work or make sense of what's going on in a negative sense, where you're just kind of like, I'm confused, then yeah, you're probably going to check out of that movie and go.
00;31;10;14 - 00;31;33;15
Clark
Yeah, I'm done. Well, it's a good thing. You know, it's a good point that you make. I think, you know, looking at musicals, looking at horror films and looking at how action or shot, I mean, these these films can contain some of the most complicated and extreme examples of maintaining or manipulating the spatial orientation of characters and objects.
00;31;34;09 - 00;32;11;13
Clark
And so, yeah, I think that's great advice. I especially like your idea, you know, that looking at musicals does often involve a lot of people, and there's some like really interesting things to learn, I think from watching a lot of musicals. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I think, you know, it's interesting too. So, you know, we've talked about, you know, the importance of geography and then we've talked about kind of where, you know, when it might be appropriate to disorient your audience by manipulating those things, you know, like Herzog mentions a couple other things, kind of smaller, but let's touch on them here.
00;32;11;22 - 00;32;28;11
Clark
You know, he talks about the Kinski spiral, which is funny. I think both of us, when we were originally taking this class and we were doing one of the exercises, I think you and I both, you know, both had a character enter frame using this Kinski spiral.
00;32;28;11 - 00;32;28;25
Cullen
Yes.
00;32;29;02 - 00;33;03;23
Clark
I think it was part of the whole work. I don't remember exactly, but I think we had to make a short a short film and it was like, okay, you've got to make it. You know, you really can see space somewhere and use it somewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's funny, you know, I don't know that I'd ever consciously recognize this except to say, I mean, I definitely, you know, we see the example of Kinski in Aguirre and then we see the example of Nicolas Cage in bed, lifted it and I, I may not have been able to have pointed out like, Oh, there's Kinski Spiral or it's the same.
00;33;03;23 - 00;33;36;08
Clark
There was a name for it. You're right. Yeah, right. But but I certainly recall, like the overall impact of how what an interesting way to inner frame. Yeah and you know and for me just to kind of expand that past just this one very specific thing, it's a good reminder of how important the physicality is of of your actors and the and that you and I have talked about this in another episode where we talked about wanting to direct right there from the camera being right next to the action and how it's a dance.
00;33;36;08 - 00;34;06;29
Clark
It's a it's a physicality. You're in a rhythm, especially when you're operating. You're there in the scene with the actor. I mean, you are absolutely in this scene. It just so happens that you're not on film, but you are definitely in the scene. And I think this really speaks to the importance of physicality. And so working with your actors on that, I think there's a there's another place where Herzog talks about how he talked with, you know, worked with Nicolas Cage on the physicality of it.
00;34;07;04 - 00;34;29;13
Clark
And also and with Gary, interestingly in they're very similarly they have very similar physicality. Yeah. Herzog talks of, you know, the uneven shoulders and, you know, this kind of story has like Miss Misinformed Arm and Cage's character has, you know, a broken back and his, you know, it's kind of twisted and his shoulders are are uneven and staggered.
00;34;29;26 - 00;34;49;10
Clark
But, you know, just one more example of how important that is. There's so much power can be had. I mean, again, it's a visual medium, right? And I think it's obvious, but I think it's so obvious that it's almost forgotten sometimes. I think so many examples of where people are trying to to say everything there is to say about a character through the dialog.
00;34;49;13 - 00;34;50;19
Clark
Yes, exactly.
00;34;50;19 - 00;34;52;16
Cullen
And so don't tell forgiveness. Yeah.
00;34;52;23 - 00;35;10;16
Clark
Yeah. And I'm like, just don't forget. Just don't forget. There's this whole world that you can explore with how you manipulate, you know, what kind of physicality are you creating for the characters? But then, but in, in conjunction, I mean, The Spiral is a great example of, okay, there's the physicality of the actor, but then how does that dance take place?
00;35;10;16 - 00;35;15;24
Clark
Then what's the tango? But with the camera and the actor, with the physicality together, it's just a great example.
00;35;16;03 - 00;35;19;27
Cullen
And just to real quickly, just to explain what the Kinski spiral is. Oh.
00;35;20;07 - 00;35;22;13
Clark
I don't know that it's it's it's.
00;35;22;28 - 00;35;43;12
Cullen
It's basically if you had a camera on a tripod that I as the actor, would be standing right next to it, like right pressed pretty much right up against the camera, but not on camera. So like, right two camera left something or could be camera right if you were to reverse it. And then I would take pretty much my left leg and step right across right into frame.
00;35;43;12 - 00;35;46;27
Cullen
And my face would be so close to the camera and almost spin as I do it. And then.
00;35;47;06 - 00;35;53;03
Clark
Like this, it's almost like a twist, like your body is twisting around into the front of the camera.
00;35;53;03 - 00;36;01;17
Cullen
Yeah I'm sure that you can if you Google the Kinski spot spiral, it should come up. But it's a very, very distinct way of entering frame.
00;36;02;07 - 00;36;02;23
Clark
And.
00;36;03;03 - 00;36;14;16
Cullen
I think that it's a great example, again, of of kind of again, as you said, that that bond between camera and camera movement and actors and the space and things like that.
00;36;14;29 - 00;36;36;00
Clark
So I've just confirmed I've just confirmed if you Google Kinski Spiral. Yes. And now this this is awesome. Okay. So you got Nick Cage and his performance in Bad Lieutenant. Of course, you've got Kinski's in Aguirre. I have not seen this yet, but apparently Nicole Kidman does this in Queen of the Desert as well.
00;36;36;06 - 00;36;37;07
Cullen
Oh, interesting. Okay.
00;36;37;08 - 00;36;56;01
Clark
I am I am going to check that out as soon as this podcast, as soon as we're done recording this. But I am like, hmm, I know that. So okay. So clearly, clearly, Herzog really loves this move and is still you. Well, Queen of the Desert is now a five year old flick, but still in a more recent film, he's using it.
00;36;56;01 - 00;37;18;00
Clark
But I think, you know, what are the other like kind of physicality that he talks about as the tree and walk? And this one was I'm going to have to admit, I'll have to admit it wasn't as immediately obvious to me what he was doing here. I didn't feel like the impact was as pronounced as the Kinski spiral at the spiral.
00;37;18;00 - 00;37;20;19
Cullen
I think I sort of got it on, weirdly enough.
00;37;20;19 - 00;37;31;15
Clark
Okay. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, why don't you describe it then, Like articulate for the people at home what you feel like Herzog is trying to do with the Nazarian walk and how soon? It very.
00;37;31;15 - 00;37;45;23
Cullen
Very simply it's a way of almost cutting together. A I guess, montage would be a good word for it. Of of far distances traveled and the way that he does it is he positions the actor really close to camera to start and then almost has the camera spiral.
00;37;45;23 - 00;37;46;18
Clark
Spiral into.
00;37;46;18 - 00;37;58;10
Cullen
A really intense angle and then follow them off into the distance. And if you keep cutting between these different shots, it just gives the impression that because the actor starts so close to the camera and then ends in the shot, so.
00;37;58;10 - 00;37;59;19
Clark
Far it's like stumbling.
00;37;59;19 - 00;38;00;16
Cullen
Over distance.
00;38;00;16 - 00;38;07;22
Clark
So I missed that. So. So are you saying that it's a it's just like a string of cuts that he's he's putting he's putting the string of these shots together.
00;38;07;22 - 00;38;12;18
Cullen
I'm not sure if it has to be a string or not. Okay. I'm okay. But, you know, even just having one.
00;38;12;21 - 00;38;13;00
Clark
Having it.
00;38;13;06 - 00;38;18;14
Cullen
Just because it's such a visceral difference between, you know, being so close and then suddenly at the end, you're so.
00;38;18;29 - 00;38;46;29
Clark
Far I mean, I almost feel like I get a sense of, you know, in my interpreting or just what I felt, not even interpretation, but just what my kind of intuitive reaction to it was, was that it's almost like like the actor, you get a sense that the actor is actually walking from behind the camera. So that's what gives a sense that that this actor has been move it right, that that he didn't it wasn't just action and he just or she of course just walked in, you know right there.
00;38;46;29 - 00;39;05;28
Clark
It gives a sense that like this character has been walking from far behind. The camera comes up over the camera, and then we kind of pick it up. Yeah, the camera finds in. Yeah, right. I think so. That's okay. Yeah. That's kind of appreciate you helping me kind of sort that out when I.
00;39;05;28 - 00;39;06;27
Cullen
First a quick side note.
00;39;06;27 - 00;39;07;21
Clark
Too. I do like.
00;39;08;08 - 00;39;11;18
Cullen
I do love his little names that he gives all these little techniques that he has.
00;39;12;06 - 00;39;32;13
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is quite nice. It is quite nice. Well, look at speaking. Okay. And to finish up, to finish off the episode, speaking of loving Herzog, the Iguanas, I think it's, I think it's kind of funny that they put this. I mean, I feel like it's, you know, the last third or so of this lesson, he's talking about iguanas.
00;39;32;24 - 00;39;33;15
Clark
And, you know, it's a.
00;39;33;15 - 00;39;34;01
Cullen
Long time.
00;39;34;01 - 00;39;58;14
Clark
On. I spent a long time. Now, of course, you know, Herzog animals play a vital role in so many of his films. It's a big part of his storytelling kind of repertoire, especially chickens, which I love. They talk about in another listen, I'm not sure, but but he uses an example here. So going back to bad lieutenant, he's talking about Nick Cage.
00;39;58;14 - 00;40;15;00
Clark
Is this, like, drugged out dude? Police officer And there's an iguana in a room and I think right here, Herzog is using like this, this small little kind of pinhole camera. And I'm not sure exactly what exact camera. It's almost like a probe camera.
00;40;15;00 - 00;40;15;16
Cullen
Some sort of.
00;40;15;19 - 00;40;39;21
Clark
Yeah, something tiny little like super wide angle, but very small, I think. Anyway. And it's kind of like the Iguanas POV almost. Right. And it's kind of, you know, he's utilizing this to, to, to show us the kind of put us inside the mind of Nick Cage, that he's the seriousness and the kind of, you know, disorientation and, you know, this addled, kind of placed that Nick is in or his character is in, rather.
00;40;40;02 - 00;41;01;18
Clark
But it's it's pretty hysterical, I suspect. Herzog talks about that. The Iguana biting him and, you know, like, you know, quite a bit his hand or something, I guess. And he could barely pry the jaws of this iguana off. And it's I don't know. It just illustrates once more it look like not everything has to be anything more than just a good story.
00;41;01;18 - 00;41;06;06
Clark
And I almost feel like this last part is just a good story for years. Yeah.
00;41;06;18 - 00;41;10;29
Cullen
And it's I mean, the shot is very interesting looking for sure. But I always find that the more.
00;41;11;03 - 00;41;12;07
Clark
Story part.
00;41;12;07 - 00;41;12;25
Cullen
Is the story.
00;41;12;25 - 00;41;14;25
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. It's a.
00;41;15;00 - 00;41;20;07
Cullen
His. It's almost like his. His dedication to telling this story. That's so great.
00;41;20;28 - 00;41;43;07
Clark
Oh, well, there's no question. I mean, and I think not to. Again, we can wrap this up here in a few minutes, but, you know, look hurt. You know, just to sidestep here for just a second, I mean, as you know, an aspiring director, a filmmaker out there for everybody, you know, if you are Cohen, I'm assuming many people in the audience would are aspiring filmmakers.
00;41;43;07 - 00;42;10;16
Clark
If you're interested in the masterclass lesson, you know, you've probably been trying to pick up some pointers, right? I you know, I think it's such it's such an important lesson to learn here. You see. HERZOG You see how and this is all within an absolute like he is absolutely authentic. This is it's him. So this is not some fake kind of marketing thing.
00;42;10;16 - 00;42;31;21
Clark
But, you know, he has created such an extraordinary character. That is him. Mm hmm. And you speak to the devotion with which he, you know, the dedication with which he tells the story. And I think every story I mean, it's, you know, these things are very important to him. And I think he does a good job of honestly, like not taking himself too seriously.
00;42;31;21 - 00;42;55;12
Clark
But he takes what he does, of course, like clearly very seriously. Yeah. But I just love I mean, it's that intensity, it's that dedication. It's that, you know, he pulls you on board when he's telling stories. He's so clearly just, you know, a good storyteller. But it's it's just it's kind of just, you know, to have an example to kind of watch him talk about the his stories, that's something that directors have to do.
00;42;55;13 - 00;43;20;02
Clark
You have to talk about your stories to your fellow cast and crew. You have to share your vision with them. You, you know, hopefully you get to a place where you're having to share your vision with press and whether this is that, you know, just speaking at a Q&A at a small festival or you're being interviewed for, you know, variety, I mean, it's a big part of of what you'll have to do as a successful filmmaker.
00;43;20;02 - 00;43;25;06
Clark
And you could do a lot worse than watching him and learning from him.
00;43;25;15 - 00;43;26;12
Cullen
Yeah, totally.
00;43;26;28 - 00;43;31;11
Clark
So. All right. Well, I think unless you've got anything else to add.
00;43;31;21 - 00;43;32;24
Cullen
No, I'm. I'm. I'm good.
00;43;33;02 - 00;43;38;03
Clark
You're done. You're done. I'm like, man, I'm out of here. I'm going to go shoot something. Yeah.
00;43;38;04 - 00;43;38;16
Cullen
See it?
00;43;38;22 - 00;43;41;09
Clark
Well, yeah, you do have a few projects.
00;43;42;06 - 00;43;42;20
Cullen
I do?
00;43;42;20 - 00;44;07;02
Clark
Yeah. So that's. So this is good. This is exciting. And maybe in a future episode, we can share a little bit more about some of these exciting things that are happening with our own projects. But until then, Cohen, as always, thank you so much. Pleasure. And everybody listening out there. We appreciate it. We hope that it's entertaining, informative and heck, even if you just laughing at us, as long as you laugh, that's all we care about.
00;44;07;12 - 00;44;29;11
Clark
All right. So until next week, where we will be discussing what's next week, it's less than 13 in 13 working with actors, and I'm really excited about this one. Yeah, this is probably because I've spent so much time as an actor on the other side. I'm really excited about this one. I look forward to it. All right. Well, until then, everybody, take care.
00;44;29;11 - 00;44;30;05
Clark
We'll see you next time.
00;44;30;17 - 00;44;38;07
Cullen
My life.