Clark
Hello, everybody, and welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I'm Clark Coffey and with me as always, Mr. Cullen McFater. What's going on, buddy?
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Cullen
Not much. Excited to be back again.
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Clark
You all, as always. You sound excited, but, like, laid back excited.
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Cullen
I don't want to scare people off.
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Clark
Don't want to write another screen. If we were both as excited as me, it would be too much. So you've got like, the chill excited thing going on. Anyway, welcome once again, everybody. This is episode ten and we will be discussing Werner Herzog's master class. Lesson 11, not 1011. I know it's kind of confusing. We're wild like that.
00;00;53;05 - 00;01;16;29
Clark
And lesson 11 is about camera karma cinematography, a.k.a It's not the gear, it's you. Cullen I know you're going to have a ton of stuff to say about this. I know that you know more about gear than any single person I think I know. So I'll be excited to hear some of your thoughts on a lot of these things.
00;01;16;29 - 00;01;35;04
Clark
But, but yeah, right off the bat, as usual, as per Mr. Herzog, he jumps right into, you know, making a super huge declarative statement where, hey, get over the gear. It's not about the gear. It's you go out there and make a freakin film with a pinhole camera.
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Cullen
Mm hmm.
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Clark
Stop worrying about the latest and greatest gear. What say you, sir?
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Cullen
I agree completely.
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Clark
I Now wait. But. But the question is, how many films have you made with a pinhole camera? I'd like to add all.
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Cullen
Of them, and I don't.
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Clark
And I'd like to know, how long did it take you to shoot frame by frame?
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Cullen
Um, no, I think that, uh, he's completely like I, as you know, I, I like gear. I like to play with cameras, I like lenses and things like that, But for sure, and I'm a big proponent of owning all of that. And like, I don't like to rent your equipment. I like to buy and have it be my own.
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Cullen
However, with that being said, I don't think I've ever bought a new camera until the one that I currently have has kind of reached a threshold or a ceiling of of what I can do with it. Yeah. So for example, I'm doing a feature right now. I don't think with the last camera that I have, I've got the Blackmagic Ursa G2.
00;02;40;23 - 00;03;16;07
Cullen
Nice cam before this, I don't think that I would be nearly as confident to use for a feature film as I do right now with this camera. Yeah. And so that's kind of where I'm going. Like, you know, the first camera I ever had was an old, you know, hi8 tape camera and I had that for years and then I had a handy cam when I was little camcorders for years and then I had a Sony mirrorless camera for years and it was, yeah, again, every time I upgraded it was due to the point that I felt like I had both learned all I could on that camera and that I had reached a certain
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Cullen
point where it was stagnating, what I could do with it.
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Clark
I'm curious. So I'm curious. Do you have any kind of examples that you might share? There might be some filmmakers out there who, you know, they're they're just getting into filmmaking and they're trying to figure out, you know, should I upgrade? Or maybe even they're trying to figure out what should I get? I mean, do you have any kind of examples, the stories you can kind of share where you did realize, oh, okay, it's it's by necessity.
00;03;43;14 - 00;04;00;21
Clark
They need that. I need to go out and upgrade my gear as opposed to, you know, just kind of wanting it and needing it and kind of buying into the whole latest greatest, you know, you get to be and h catalog in the mail and you're like drooling over everything just because it's so you know, because it's so amazing.
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Clark
But I'm just curious kind of what what if any particular cues you you might have had during that process.
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Cullen
A lot of it is about ergonomics for me. Yeah, It's you know, of course I think that's the thing about the expense of film equipment is so often that cheaper film equipment may actually be equal quality wise in terms of the output quality too. Really expensive equipment. The expensive equipment is usually expensive because it is easier to use and more reliable, a lot more, you know, hearty and will survive for longer.
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Cullen
Yeah, and lighting is a huge example of that, where you can get cheap lights that you know.
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Clark
In here.
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Cullen
As much light and.
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Clark
I've been here have.
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Cullen
Just as great of a quality of light as you know really expensive lights but.
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Clark
You know reason you breathe on them and they're gone. Yeah.
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Cullen
So an example of that would be with the again, the old black magic that I had was not great in low light. Yeah.
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Clark
What did you had, Did you have the 4K.
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Cullen
Yeah, I had the production camera. 4K. Okay. The big kind of not.
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Clark
Big the big box.
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Cullen
About box one. Yeah. It looks like a silver blob box. Yeah. And that was not good in low light and a lot of fixed powder noise issues. And it was kind of while I was shooting that western that we've talked about on here before. And we had a night scene and it was not even nighttime. It was pretty much dusk, really early dusk, and I couldn't see anything.
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Cullen
And I wound up in post having to just pile a bunch of film grain on it because it was like so noisy. And that camera just was really limited in that, you know, it only went up to 30 frames per second. Yeah, it's the ISO. You only had three options for ISO 200, 400 or 800, so you couldn't even fine tune things like that.
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Cullen
And I just got to a point where I was like, you know, I have the money right now to make an upgrade. I might as well as make my life easier. But yeah, I totally agree that it was never about, you know, and there's there's a lot speaking about cheap equipment. There's a lot of equipment that I have that is very cheap that I'm not out there looking for, as you said, looking to be in a catalog where I'm like, Oh, what's the latest, you know, thing that Aperture lights have put out?
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Cullen
Or what's the.
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Clark
Yeah, it.
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Cullen
Was gimbal or things like that. Yeah, I don't really I don't like gimbals, I don't like things like that. It's usually a gear upgrade for me is usually something that is just in this for the sake of efficiency and for making my life easier and for the sake of like, Oh man, I want that camera because.
00;06;20;21 - 00;06;38;07
Clark
It's on hopefully propelled by a story, right? Yeah. I mean, ideally it's propelled by a story. I mean, it's you've got, you know, whatever stories you're working to tell, the limitations of your current gear are, you know, are providing a very real, you know, obstacle and that it's the story is pushing the gear.
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Cullen
And I would have you know, I would have bought the the Ursa G2 if it was a 1080 camera like I don't care about 4K. Yeah but eight K 12 K whatever that doesn't, you know, that's such a big thing.
00;06;49;22 - 00;07;09;29
Clark
Oh wow. I mean, do you want to talk about that just a little bit? I don't want to go too often. Let's like briefly, let's touch base on this, you know, because that is right. I mean, a big part of this is is marketing, right? It's it's you know, we're all kind of exposed to just this onslaught of marketing messaging about the latest and greatest.
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Clark
Right. And I mean, a big way, you know, that these camera companies continue to sell models, newer models is, you know, it's like the the k the resolution and it's.
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Cullen
Got a bigger number on.
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Clark
It is a big part of it. I mean, tell me a little bit about that. I mean, I actually.
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Cullen
It's funny, I wrote a probably I think it was like a 30 page paper on this when I was at university.
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Clark
Well, let's really dive in.
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Cullen
Yeah, I can read my whole paper on them right now, but I mean, essentially image quality does not come down to the amount of pixels that you have in it unless you know, there's there's something that a term called actual fidelity or something that I can't remember. The exact term is. But essentially what that means is that there's a there's a certain point where the human eye no longer distinguishes.
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Clark
It's like a law of diminishing returns in a sense. Yeah, yeah.
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Cullen
Even at the point where you can see, even like there's no camera, even at 720p where you could individually count pixels. Yeah. What matters more is the quality of sensor in terms of the color, you know, the intake of the color. But those are the range, dynamic range. Exactly. Those are things that are more difficult to.
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Clark
Notice because.
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Cullen
They require a more technical understanding of how cameras work, whereas much more.
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Clark
Nuanced range, something like that is so much harder to communicate.
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Cullen
It's easier something saying that like 12 K, you know, right? It's got more pixels and it's, you know, everyone understands what high definition means.
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Clark
It's like when we were kids, well, at least when I was kids and, you know, like it would be like Nintendo a bit. And then, you know, Sega comes out 16 bit, you know, 32. Yeah, it's kind of what it reminds me of when I was a kid.
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Cullen
And it's exactly like that where it's like, is the quality of the game, you know? And that's what I always tell people too is that like and I made tons of movies on a shitty little high eight video camera.
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Clark
Well, yeah, I've had.
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Cullen
To record, you know, on to tape and then transfer that tape and, and it was never the quality of the camera that made those good because the quality of the camera, if anything, was a detriment to them. But they were good in spite of the quality of the camera. Yeah. And I think that that's the idea that Herzog's getting out with the pinhole camera thing, which is really, really something.
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Cullen
And I try to drill in when I teach or when a student of mine asks me, you know, and most of my students are either early high school or late middle school. So really just kind of getting into that now, that level where you would start buying your own cameras and things like that. Well, and I always say that exact thing.
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Cullen
It's like get something that is cheap, that takes video.
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Clark
And I would I want to add to you know, I think I mean, you know, I never want to try to put words in Herzog's mouth or anything, but I, you know, just kind of speaking from, you know, a completely different art form as well. I remember when I was a kid and I first started playing guitar and, you know, my I was getting you know, I had an instructor and, you know, I was like looking finally to get a guitar, of course.
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Clark
And you know, what I wanted, right, was like, Eddie Van Halen, Rest in peace, you know, like electric guitar. You know, I wanted like, huge Marshall Lamp and I wanted all this stuff right now, like, give me a bunch of pedals. And, yeah, my parents were like, No, we're going to get you a really simple acoustic guitar. And my instructor was like, Yep, that's exactly what you should get them.
00;10;20;17 - 00;10;40;18
Clark
And I was like, Why? Why, why? And my instructor said, Look, you know, in the beginning you've got that. It's all about mastering the fundamentals and all this extraneous stuff, right? All these effects, the amplifier, different, you know, pickup combinations, all this kind of stuff here. You're not ready for that yet. Of course, I thought I was ready for it.
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Clark
And I guess, you know, sometimes I kind of feel like cameras can be that way.
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Cullen
Oh, I mentally.
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Clark
Master the fundamentals of tape, of getting an image, of capturing an image, just master the fundamentals.
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Cullen
And as we've spoken about, too, you know, neither of us went to film school, but I have friends that went and they tell stories and I've met some of these people that they went to school with that I don't know particularly well, but I've just heard these kind of anecdotal stories about these kind of usually, you know, like a trust fund kid.
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Clark
Who gets.
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Cullen
His parents to buy him a read. And it's like my movies still aren't good. I'm still not getting accepted to festivals. I'm still not you know, I'm not getting good grades on my movies. And it's like you expect it. Then I think, again, it's completely in line with what you said. With the guitar thing. It's like you expect getting expensive guitars suddenly going to make you an impressive music musician.
00;11;24;20 - 00;11;25;16
Clark
It's just not the case.
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Cullen
It's getting a red camera is going to suddenly make, you know, there are movies that are shot on reds, on areas, on on film that I think look like garbage. That I will add to that even more.
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Clark
They're just not good stories.
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Cullen
They're they're not good stories. It's great, you know, And, you know, even just but specifically for like the cinematography, right. Like there are there are movies that are shot on very expensive equipment, very expensive. Your high octane Hollywood movies that that I do think genuinely look worse than some movies that were shot on iPhones or shot.
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Clark
On it can.
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Cullen
On, you know, just just a like rebel a can and rebel.
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Clark
Yeah. And this should be an empowering thing. I mean, I hope for you guys out there listening. I mean, this should be an empowering idea. You don't have to wait to have a bunch of money or to have access to, you know, an extraordinarily expensive camera. You know, we'll keep reiterating this over and over and over, but shoot with what you have and don't look at that, the camera that you have as some kind of limitation.
00;12;29;08 - 00;12;48;01
Clark
You know, a lot of time as with all kinds of you know, as with so many different aspects of making art, your limitations can actually be a great strength. They can help kind of provide a, you know, in a strange way, like a scaffolding that can actually help you build your work. So having a simple camera is Biebs.
00;12;48;02 - 00;12;54;02
Clark
Like, don't ever think that that should keep you from making your film. It really, really shouldn't.
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Cullen
And it sort of I mean, it also can sort of seem paradoxical for me because, of course, I do have a quite an expensive camera. I've got a lot of lenses and things like that. But I think the idea for me is even if those were stolen or even if I was driving and they fell out of my car and all broke, the first thing I would do is go and get a $300 shitty little DSLR and start using that to make movies.
00;13;15;23 - 00;13;20;13
Cullen
I wouldn't just sit there and sulk and go, My movies are ruined because I lost the big camera. I can't make.
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Clark
Movies. So what you're saying is, is that if all of your gear somehow happened to magically disappear, you'd be okay. What was your address again?
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Cullen
COEN Well, luckily, the borders closed right now. Oh.
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Clark
Gosh, you're right. You don't. Well.
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Cullen
But but no, I mean, I think that's that kind of sums it up. I think we're we're in agreeance with Herzog on that. Yeah, That's like, you know, I don't I don't think he's expecting many first time filmmakers to actually go out with a pinhole camera and make a movie with that. Although pinhole cameras can be very fun to take pictures with.
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Cullen
Yeah, but but I think his idea is just, again, that that if you couldn't tell a story in a single photograph with a pinhole camera, then how are you going to tell a story with a, you know, $15,000 red or Sony or Black Magic camera like Ryan? You know, you got to you got to master the fundamentals of visual storytelling prior to any of that.
00;14;13;12 - 00;14;34;22
Clark
Absolutely. And it's funny, you know, speaking of mastering the fundamentals now, this this is kind of funny to me. And Herzog certainly communicates this with all sincerity. I'd like to get your views on this. But Herzog talks about and you can maybe tell when I think because I'm laughing here, as I say it, he talks about not even allowing his deepest use of viewfinder.
00;14;34;22 - 00;14;58;19
Clark
Yeah, I just a I would love to be on the set. Now, with all due respect, I have a sneaky suspicion that his DP's generally use Viewfinders and his operators use Viewfinders. But. But I think again, this is kind of his way of of just really trying to drive home the point that, you know, I think, you know, hey, hey, maybe I've got it all backwards.
00;14;58;19 - 00;15;17;05
Clark
I mean, maybe, you know, maybe not. I'd love to see somebody shoot without a viewfinder. I yeah, I've never seen it done personally myself. And I would consider that quite an extraordinary feat to shoot an entire film without using one. But I assume you probably agree that you think maybe it's just a little bit hyperbolic just to have.
00;15;17;06 - 00;15;17;14
Clark
Yeah.
00;15;17;19 - 00;15;28;04
Cullen
I mean, I think I understand what he means again, too, with the, the idea of as a as a dip or as a camera operator, you should probably know at a certain focal length what's in the frame.
00;15;28;09 - 00;15;29;04
Clark
For no question should.
00;15;29;04 - 00;15;34;10
Cullen
Be able to. Yeah. But I think and perhaps this is his way of really stressing that. Yeah.
00;15;34;19 - 00;15;57;00
Clark
And I'm sure people can get it right. I mean, I'm sure you use the same camera and Liz's for a long period of time. I'm sure that your approximation can be extremely close. I mean I No, Yeah. So, you know, let me rewind that a little bit. I'm not saying that this is so far fetched, ridiculous that, you know, a really talented, skilled DP couldn't estimate within extremely close or what the frame.
00;15;57;00 - 00;16;08;19
Clark
Right. Right. Absolutely. And I mean, you know, if you use the same gear for a long enough time, your muscle memory I mean I've seen some extraordinary almost seemed like magical focus pulling and you know I.
00;16;09;09 - 00;16;11;12
Cullen
Didn't have viewfinders they had to know the foot.
00;16;11;23 - 00;16;45;15
Clark
You have to know that, right? You actually measure it out. You'd have to know what that depth of focus was going to be and stay within that. Absolutely. So. So yeah, it's not like I'm laughing like, Oh, this is impossible. I just I personally think that there's nothing wrong with using the viewfinder and Yeah, and it would but but I do think his point, his overall general point about you know, really kind of becoming as much one with your gear as possible to the point where you you can estimate that frame and the depth of focus very closely and you can understand the differences in lenses and things like this.
00;16;45;15 - 00;16;51;05
Clark
But but anyway, it's just funny, of course, Herzog, like always has a wonderful way of driving his points on.
00;16;51;21 - 00;17;12;02
Cullen
The fundamentals of what a lot of Herzog talks about in this whole masterclass and what, you know, what a very common tenet of teaching, whether it's film or anything, is. You have to essentially understand the rules to break them. So you're understand your camera in and out to the point where you don't need a viewfinder before you then rely on a viewfinder.
00;17;12;10 - 00;17;28;12
Cullen
Yeah, I think it's a good way to put it. Yeah. And so and that's the same reason that, you know, when I am teaching any focus pulling in the film classes I do, I don't let them use focus peaking. I say focus without focus. You can use it once you know how to focus. Yeah but.
00;17;28;21 - 00;17;29;12
Clark
Don't have a be a.
00;17;29;14 - 00;17;47;03
Cullen
Rely on focus peaking. So I turn it off and I make them you know pull focus just by doing that or storyboarding I say you know you can't don't take out the camera and see what focal length you need. Make a guess, make it, make an observation and try. And if you're wrong, that's fine, because that's the best way to learn.
00;17;47;17 - 00;17;55;09
Cullen
Yeah, but. But give yourself the chance. And if anything, put yourself in a position that that causes you to fail.
00;17;55;18 - 00;18;23;18
Clark
Well, I'll tell you it very nicely. And I tell you that, you know, it really does have. Yeah. I mean, and this. So sorry. I just. I didn't mean to cut you off there. I just. It's just like I it and I it's so important. You might wonder. Well, why. Okay, look, if I have focus peaking, if I have all these tools available to me, have these extraordinarily, you know, wonderful viewfinders, you know, or electronic viewfinders with, you know, all different types of histograms peeking and everything.
00;18;23;20 - 00;18;42;21
Clark
Like, why? Why should I need to to learn how to do so many of these things manually? Well, I'll tell you, it's like today, it's like and I have I am at such a sucker for this. I have completely fallen into this. But when I was when I first started driving, of course we didn't have GPS, nobody had smartphones.
00;18;42;21 - 00;18;49;08
Clark
I had a map or I just had to remember where things were. And I got around all over. We've both.
00;18;49;08 - 00;18;50;13
Cullen
Been pizza delivery drivers.
00;18;50;19 - 00;19;04;00
Clark
And I was a pizza delivery guy and I used to I used to string together four or five six pizza deliveries and I would just look at a map for about a minute and a half and I would map out every single delivery in order and I would go, Mm. And that's.
00;19;04;02 - 00;19;05;28
Cullen
It. Yeah. They allow us to use our phones.
00;19;06;05 - 00;19;31;28
Clark
And I'm telling you, I could not find my way to the grocery store that I go to 50 times a month today because I have become so reliant on my cell phone, on my jeeps and there will definitely come a time when you're shooting or you're going to be on location. And one of those tools that you've learned to rely on is going to fail or won't work in the specific circumstance that you're going to need it to.
00;19;31;28 - 00;19;34;04
Cullen
Be, or you'll be shooting on a medium that doesn't allow at.
00;19;34;10 - 00;19;40;04
Clark
All any number of mistakes, Correct. Any number or combination of these things. And what are you going to do then?
00;19;40;28 - 00;19;41;08
Cullen
Mm hmm.
00;19;42;06 - 00;19;49;18
Clark
And so and you think, well, what's the chances of that happening? Well, I think even with the best gear, the chances are actually not that far fetched.
00;19;49;20 - 00;20;12;02
Cullen
No. And I think even taking it a step further there, too, I've seen people who have, you know, no equipment failure, have focus peaking on learn to focus, pull with focus peaking who were awful at it even with vocal. Oh yeah you know that's their idea of focus is getting the most colored squares in a spot and not actually really analyzing the image for what it is of what's in focus.
00;20;12;02 - 00;20;13;14
Clark
And actually my point, right, And it's.
00;20;13;14 - 00;20;14;01
Cullen
Like you are not.
00;20;14;01 - 00;20;15;16
Clark
Even looking at the it makes.
00;20;15;16 - 00;20;18;09
Cullen
Your brain turn into like an autofocus thing, which is you know.
00;20;18;16 - 00;20;18;24
Clark
Yeah.
00;20;18;24 - 00;20;19;10
Cullen
The worst.
00;20;19;16 - 00;20;42;26
Clark
Yeah. So great points. And so I think we just, you know hammer home yet again the importance of really learning the fundamentals and then building upon that you know learn to navigate manually. Mm. And then you're not having to rely on the tools to the point where you're kind of pushed out of the equation. It's like at that point what do you, what are you there for then, you know?
00;20;42;26 - 00;21;13;04
Clark
Yeah. So, you know, he mentions and I've seen this film briefly or not briefly, it's a brief film, so I've just seen it. And you've not yet. But Herzog talks about the documentary film, and I think it's the English title is The Mad Masters, which is a 1955 short documentary. It's about 36 seconds long ish shot in the Gold Coast and has to do with colonialism and its impact on the people there.
00;21;13;16 - 00;21;43;14
Clark
And not that I would like pretend to understand complete context of this film because it would take a little bit more than just watching the film to obtain a complete context. But it's really an extraordinarily intimate view on some an important religious ritual that's taking place that the filmmaker has actually been invited to, to document. And Herzog uses an example of, you know, what you can do with such minimal gear.
00;21;43;14 - 00;22;02;24
Clark
And I think Herzog mentions like, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's like he has a hand-cranked camera. He can only shoot, you know, 24 second burst. He's got one lens. I do not remember the focal length of the lens that he had available to him, but I mean, really rudimentary gear. And I think it's just him. And I'm curious, I don't even know if sound was even recorded for this.
00;22;02;24 - 00;22;25;18
Clark
I I'm not quite sure if any of the sound is actually, you know, on location sound there. I'm not quite sure. But the bottom line is, is that it's a it's really an extraordinarily extraordinary film documents something really interesting and visceral and, you know, here's a guy with a camera that to most people today, they'd be like, you know, what the hell is this?
00;22;25;20 - 00;22;26;02
Clark
Yeah.
00;22;26;20 - 00;22;29;18
Cullen
So I, I do want to ask you a few questions, too.
00;22;29;18 - 00;22;29;25
Clark
Yeah.
00;22;29;25 - 00;22;52;18
Cullen
Yes. Relating to this and relating again to that idea, not just to talk about gear, but to talk about how how gear can affect your movie. Yeah. So firstly I, and we briefly touched on this before I think in another episode, but we've I don't think either of us have ever shot a full feature or even a longer short of our own on film.
00;22;52;24 - 00;23;18;15
Cullen
That's correct. I have shot I've shot you know, I have, as I said, I have a six millimeter camera and I've shot short things that, you know, again, very similar to what you just described or it's a hand-cranked, you know, push button thing that that goes for 24 seconds. And I think just to get into a broader scope of it, because you also mentioned the idea that he has not a zoom lens, just a lens with with a single focal length.
00;23;18;22 - 00;23;23;09
Clark
That's my understanding that he's just got a single focal length lens. That's correct. Yeah. But I don't going all the way.
00;23;23;23 - 00;23;47;28
Cullen
In going beyond beyond what maybe this movie is the limitations on this movie were, but just to a general scope of film altogether as well, the weight of cameras has gone down so much. Yes. I find not just in terms of just the ease on the camera upgrade or whatever carrying it, I find that all of those things restrictions are some of the best things for story.
00;23;47;28 - 00;24;01;01
Cullen
I agree. It's one of the reasons that another one of the reasons that I really wanted to get an upgraded camera was because I like larger cameras, because I like the feeling of and I've always described it this way.
00;24;01;01 - 00;24;01;23
Clark
As the heavy cam.
00;24;01;23 - 00;24;18;03
Cullen
Let's say let's say that I'm trying to shoot a scene and I need the camera to be in a corner and I need to be high up in a corner looking down at somebody and the camera's too big for that. It just won't work. I find that the second decision that I have to make, they're going, okay, that's not going to work.
00;24;18;03 - 00;24;42;09
Cullen
Now I have to actually think about the shot and go, what? What is the exact placement? Or if I'm shooting on a lens that, you know, say I'm shooting on a 50 and I don't have any other lenses with me, the idea of being restricted by that lens and going, All right, I can't get closer to that. So now I have to really think about what story can I tell with this shot, with these limited circumstances that I've got.
00;24;42;22 - 00;24;50;12
Cullen
I think that that makes you think way harder about what you're actually doing and the placement of the camera and what your, you know, the visual storytelling of the movie.
00;24;50;18 - 00;25;14;18
Clark
I would agree wholeheartedly. Yeah. I think that there is a strange kind of paradox, you know, kind of this weird paradox that goes on with the creative process where, you know, and I think for I mean, I guess by its very nature, right, any, any medium is a set of limitations, right? Yeah. If you're a sculptor, there's a certain set of limitations.
00;25;14;18 - 00;25;35;23
Clark
And then even further, depending on the material that you're sculpting in. Right. If you're a painter, that's a certain set of restrictions that are different than if you were a sculptor. And then even further, what are you painting on? What are you painting with? If you're a filmmaker, what you're shooting with camera wise, medium wise, lens wise, etc.?
00;25;35;23 - 00;25;55;26
Clark
I mean, so, you know, kind of by its very definition, right? All mediums are these set of limitations. You can look at them that way. And so, I mean, basically what we're doing when we sit down and we say we want to create something and then we pick some way to express ourselves, we're saying, what sort of limitations would I like?
00;25;55;26 - 00;25;56;07
Clark
You know.
00;25;56;23 - 00;25;58;15
Cullen
What are my what are my options here?
00;25;58;15 - 00;26;01;21
Clark
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what you're doing. Well, it's.
00;26;01;21 - 00;26;32;14
Cullen
Also it's also one of the reasons that I prefer, you know, if I can avoid hand-held, I prefer to shoot on tripod all the time from for movies that I'm making, because I find again, that when you're shooting handheld and you're kind of, you know, there are some great handheld shots in movies that use handheld extremely well, but they're all almost to me planned like they're tripods, whereas I find a lot of people fall into when they're just doing handheld photography, just kind of going with the flow and almost improvising the camera.
00;26;32;14 - 00;26;49;18
Cullen
Whereas I find I'm on a tripod, I really have to know where everything's going to be because I have to make sure that, you know, if I'm still here, I have to make sure that I can get all the stuff in the shot and really plan that out. That's not to say there aren't places for handheld, and I view I use handheld when it's when it's appropriate.
00;26;49;18 - 00;27;17;26
Cullen
But I do think that and, you know, same again goes for these cameras that can go up to like 300,000 ISO or 256,000 ISO or whatever. And it's like, yeah, and you're basically throwing lighting out the window because you can, you know, you don't need to light anymore. You're I think that oftentimes the breaking down of those limitations, ironically, leads to almost a late not necessarily laziness, but just an overlooking of certain decisions that should still be really vital.
00;27;17;29 - 00;27;53;19
Clark
It might be less premeditated. It's true. It's possible. I mean, I think and we can, you know, to tie this in a little bit, you know. HERZOG Let's talk about operating camera in a larger camera. Smaller camera. There's no question these things have a a significant impact on your filmmaking. And you can certainly see this over time. You know, I think you and I have talked about this where cameras used to weigh, you know, a couple of hundred pounds and you look at how a film was shot, you know, And then fast forward to today where people are shooting with mirrorless, you know, just minuscule form factor cameras that weigh ounces.
00;27;53;26 - 00;28;20;04
Clark
Mm hmm. You can see just the profound difference in how most films look today, just based on that one change in technology, just that one alone. But, I mean, you know, Herzog talks about operating with his whole body. And I especially be curious what you think about this. I am like you. I like I like a full, more kind of formal, traditional form factor camera video.
00;28;20;07 - 00;28;30;05
Clark
You know, I'm not a big fan of small form factor. And I think if I if I was if I was understand you correctly, that's one of the reasons you wanted to move to the mini Ursa G.
00;28;30;13 - 00;28;32;10
Cullen
Correct. Yeah, because it's a little much larger.
00;28;32;10 - 00;28;32;27
Clark
It's a much.
00;28;32;27 - 00;28;35;06
Cullen
Larger not very many. Despite the. No.
00;28;35;09 - 00;28;58;17
Clark
Right. It's pretty substantial and it's certainly more substantial than that production camera you had, which is still, you know, which which even that is a bulky it's a very bulky, substantial camera compared to what a lot of people shoot with, like a Sony or whatnot. Nikon has some or, you know, these mirrorless cameras, which have some very interesting capabilities in a extremely small form factor body.
00;28;59;27 - 00;29;34;05
Clark
But, you know, Herzog talks about operating with his whole body and kind of and I love this because Herzog talks about this in so many ways over and over and over again. The physicality, the athleticism of filmmaking and it's interesting to me to watch Herzog kind of describe this in a master class, and he kind of gets up and pantomimes having a camera, but he talks about, you know, how it's it's a dance that you don't want to remove yourself from the physicality of what's going on and that, you know, this this, this helps you kind of, you know, I think, become one with the story you're telling and it allows like a certain flow
00;29;34;05 - 00;29;50;15
Clark
and lyricism and rhythm to to kind of develop. And I'm so curious. I mean, we're talking about different technology is different form factor cameras. What are your experiences? How do you like to shoot? What do you think about what Herzog says about, you know, how he likes to shoot?
00;29;50;15 - 00;29;51;16
Cullen
I think it's it's respect.
00;29;51;20 - 00;29;52;02
Clark
It almost.
00;29;52;02 - 00;30;07;06
Cullen
Lines up. Exactly. Because I think that larger cameras are easier to feel that weight and to feel that, you know, exactly like be you know, be one with the camera and how he sort of says it like move it with your whole body. And it certainly forces it.
00;30;07;06 - 00;30;09;12
Clark
Right. I mean, exactly. Which forces you to.
00;30;09;12 - 00;30;32;25
Cullen
Camera on your shoulder or if it's even if it's you're doing it in like an undersea slung or whatever. Um, I think a good camera operator is somebody who, you know, you'll watch them contort. And I had a little bit of experience with that when I was doing live camera photography or cinematography at TIFF when it which is very different than, of course, narrative, but just just contorting your body to get into that image.
00;30;32;25 - 00;30;52;13
Cullen
And it can it can be super uncomfortable. And that's why most camera operators have really bad backs. But, but, but it feels like there's just something, again, about the image versus just having, you know, a DSLR in my hand and being able to kind of hold my hand out and point it even beyond just the fact that smaller cameras tend to handle shakiness less well.
00;30;52;18 - 00;30;52;28
Clark
Yeah, there's.
00;30;52;28 - 00;31;16;09
Cullen
Just something about being able to just do that and to hold my camera out and, you know, be fine with it. And it's not versus really, really feeling the weight. And you look at someone like Peter Van Hoytema, who is he's done most of Nolan's most recent movies on IMAX. And like, he really pioneered this idea of doing handheld IMAX, which is insane because IMAX was like the size of desks.
00;31;16;09 - 00;31;16;19
Cullen
But he's.
00;31;16;19 - 00;31;17;02
Clark
Right.
00;31;17;09 - 00;31;38;27
Cullen
He's really, really pioneered this idea of it. And it's really interesting. And it's one of these things, again, that I really talk about in the class is I take a look at photography, handheld photography on smaller cameras and then something like an IMAX camera. And it's a completely different feeling. The IMAX camera almost feels like it's moving by itself, like it's this big.
00;31;38;27 - 00;31;43;19
Cullen
Like every every single movement of the camera is intentional. And it's. Yes, nice.
00;31;43;20 - 00;31;44;29
Clark
And yes, it's this is.
00;31;45;08 - 00;31;47;16
Cullen
And it's, you know versus purpose able to.
00;31;47;19 - 00;31;48;24
Clark
Weight conscious per.
00;31;48;24 - 00;31;49;20
Cullen
Flip a camera around.
00;31;49;20 - 00;32;02;27
Clark
Yeah right right. And as I try to fight you know because it might be, you know, challenging for maybe somebody to kind of kind of understand what was the big deal here. It's like, don't you want don't you want the camera to be more mobile? Don't you. Yeah.
00;32;02;29 - 00;32;04;02
Cullen
Like freedom to know.
00;32;04;13 - 00;32;31;05
Clark
And and certainly, like, make no mistake, there are some definite pros to smaller cameras. Like, I mean, absolutely there are. I mean, just, you know, but but I think what we're trying to kind of highlight is like some of the things that you might not instantly think of that are benefits of of a larger camera. But regardless, I think whether you're working with a larger format camera or a or a sorry, a form factor, not format, that would be a different thing, but a larger.
00;32;31;22 - 00;33;04;24
Clark
Yeah. Form factor. That's a whole different thing. Form factor, camera or small one. I mean, you know, even with a smaller camera, you can set things up. You can put yourself in a position where you are making conscious, deliberate, purposeful movements with, you know, with your entire body. And I think it really is about I mean, and this goes back to what we've talked about, about directing right at the action, about not being in a video village where you're right there with the action you are involved and present with the performers, with your actors.
00;33;05;03 - 00;33;11;23
Clark
And, you know, it's it's that that dance or that exchange of energy and being there.
00;33;13;12 - 00;33;38;07
Cullen
And that's you know, that's a really great time to actually bring up Herzog's philosophy on Zooms, which is ironic because Aguirre begins with a zoom. But but I think that yeah. Herzog For those of you who haven't seen the Masterclass or don't know that Herzog doesn't like zooms, or at least in this lesson, kind of speaks them about about don't zoom in to a subject we'll physically move in with the camera with your whole body.
00;33;38;07 - 00;34;07;15
Clark
Right? So he's not saying and which we can touch on this. This is kind of two different things. He's not saying, I don't ever use a zoom lens. He actually does specifically call out and I actually I love zooms for documentary work. I actually love them. And I, I don't know that I've ever I mean, I almost exclusively shoot documentary stuff with a zoom because it allows you to to change the focal length of your lens on the fly, which is vital when you don't, you can't you can't plan anything.
00;34;07;15 - 00;34;36;18
Clark
You're you're running and gunning. And I think for running and gunning zoom lens is extraordinary. Now there are tradeoffs and maybe you can you can explain those to people, but just your stop just having less light come in could be one of them. Image quality would be another potentially. But but what yeah Herzog is talking is actually making a zoom move, actually changing the focal length of the lens while you are shooting and using that footage in your film.
00;34;36;27 - 00;34;43;16
Clark
That's what he's talking about. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, are you as hardcore against using zooms in that way?
00;34;43;26 - 00;35;08;05
Cullen
No, I do. I like zooms. I actually really enjoy I think that I think it's a completely different effect. I think it's yeah, for me is that a zoom to me is like intentionally observational. It feels like you're almost prying in. Yeah. Whereas moving in to me feels more of an intentional movement or a deliberate like grand motion that is now even just to me, it's more, it's more it's a completely different emotion.
00;35;08;17 - 00;35;23;27
Clark
It is. I mean, I think yeah, when you see a zoom and I am trying to think of a documentary film that I that I can't think of one off the top of my head where I've seen an intense, you know, a zoom used in the actual film. I can certainly think of some narrative films where I've seen zooms.
00;35;24;03 - 00;35;24;27
Cullen
And he only loves.
00;35;24;27 - 00;35;57;20
Clark
Them. And, and Quentin Tarantino, of course, even more recently uses zooms and I feel like there's certainly a self-referential feel to them. There's a certain it's calling attention to the artifice of the camera. I think when you're using a zoom like that. And so if you want to say like when Quentin Tarantino, you know, he's postmodern and kind of really self-referential and is always referring to even his own films or other films or television shows, I mean, it's almost kind of, you know, just one more way that he's, you know, winking to everybody, hahaha.
00;35;57;20 - 00;36;06;25
Clark
This is a film which certainly may not be a what you want to do all the time in other films. And so, yeah, I think there's a place, but I think there's.
00;36;06;25 - 00;36;11;17
Cullen
Great there great for emphasis too. Like you look at The Shining, there's tons of fresh my memory.
00;36;11;17 - 00;36;13;26
Clark
Refresh your memory. Where do they. I haven't seen it.
00;36;13;26 - 00;36;20;11
Cullen
The first time that Danny sees the twins and it's operating on his face and it's like this. Great. Again, this really visceral.
00;36;20;16 - 00;36;22;19
Clark
Is it like a film, though, or is it actual?
00;36;22;19 - 00;36;24;06
Cullen
Just it. It is.
00;36;24;06 - 00;36;24;20
Clark
Like a.
00;36;24;21 - 00;36;32;23
Cullen
Split second crash zoom like. And it goes like and he uses them in Barry Lyndon as well. Yeah. There's really, really long like some of the longest Oh.
00;36;32;28 - 00;36;36;21
Clark
Like could have a really slow drawn out. I haven't seen either one of those films in a long.
00;36;36;21 - 00;36;50;09
Cullen
So yeah, I mean I think that again it's like any like any camera movement there's, there's if you're, if you're using the tool to convey a feeling or to on purpose explain a story, then that's, that's I think what it's there for. And I think again for.
00;36;50;09 - 00;37;00;12
Clark
Documentaries like I'm like I'm still racking my brain. I can't think of a significant documentary film that I have seen that utilized a Zoom move in the footage. Can you.
00;37;00;12 - 00;37;05;17
Cullen
Beyond beyond utilizing zooms to like re calibrate and kind of.
00;37;06;03 - 00;37;14;29
Clark
Kind of as a stylist I've seen kind of like maybe Errol Morris you know in a seated interview kind of use a reframing, you know, and kind of give it this.
00;37;15;11 - 00;37;17;09
Cullen
Like, of, like this feeling of dirty view.
00;37;17;09 - 00;37;23;26
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I but aside from that I really, yeah. I can't recall. Yeah.
00;37;23;29 - 00;37;31;13
Cullen
But I mean again it is, it is funny to me because that, that opening shot of Aguirre is I'm pretty sure starts zoomed in on somebody.
00;37;31;14 - 00;37;39;29
Clark
There's no question there's no it does there. Absolutely it does. And this is what's great. It's like Herzog, you know, he contradicts himself at every turn, which is wonderful. I love it. You know.
00;37;41;05 - 00;37;49;22
Cullen
But no, I mean, and just just to answer your question there earlier, too. It is. Yeah. Zooms these days are actually quite they're getting to the point where they're almost.
00;37;49;29 - 00;37;50;10
Clark
Facing.
00;37;50;15 - 00;37;59;24
Cullen
With Yeah. Which is great and they're lowering in prices but yeah it's like a cinema zoom. You're always going to have an equivalent focal length for the price that you pay. You're, you're always going to have a.
00;38;00;09 - 00;38;01;04
Clark
Higher F stop.
00;38;01;04 - 00;38;04;08
Cullen
Limitation. Yeah, Yeah. It's just less light and pretty.
00;38;04;08 - 00;38;05;26
Clark
Yes. We're talking sun lenses. Yeah.
00;38;05;26 - 00;38;32;08
Cullen
And you know, and again, cinema zooms are majorly expensive. There's one that I'm looking at picking up that's actually probably the cheapest by like ten grand for the quality of it. And that's more for me again, for efficiency is just that rather than sitting there and having to switch out a lens on set when I've got such a small crew working with me and when we got, you know, very limited time, I'd much rather just be able to, you know, if I'm going from a just, let's.
00;38;32;09 - 00;38;51;22
Clark
Just focus on Yeah, yeah. And, and of course you've got a lot more flexibility. You've got basically it nearly you know, it's an analog infinite focal length. Mm hmm. Increment between whatever the limitations of that particular lens are. So and again, I'll just read it, I think for Running Gun, you know, I think for documentary filmmaking, they're extraordinarily powerful.
00;38;51;22 - 00;39;06;04
Clark
You don't always have a chance to change lens. As a matter of fact, you know, you often don't have time to do that kind of thing. And being able to to, you know, recompose your picture on the fly, your image on the fly can just just be extraordinary.
00;39;06;04 - 00;39;30;09
Cullen
And again, it goes based with the theme of this. This whole episode is about, which is just know why you're doing it and understand why you're doing it and doing it with intention. Don't just do it because it's like, Oh, you know what? I'm just going to zoom in here because I've got the zoom lens on, um, you know, make sure that the point of your focal length is, is to tell the story to its best capacity.
00;39;30;09 - 00;39;46;18
Cullen
Yeah. Not to just be like, well, I'm going to get, you know, again, this kind of went on with her last episode too, where it's like, don't just get the options so that you can delay making that decision and then later on in post go. Actually, I like that one more because that one was there. Make those decisions on set.
00;39;47;04 - 00;39;58;03
Cullen
The zoom lens should be a tool to make things more efficient for you and to give you an easier time doing that. But it shouldn't be the decision maker. Yeah, and you shouldn't rely on it to do so, so well.
00;39;58;03 - 00;40;18;10
Clark
Speaking of making decisions, let's talk about what makes a great or good cinematographer. And let's start first with, you know, as a as a director, if if you're hiring or looking to work with a DP or cinematographer, do you have any like what are your thoughts on how to go about doing that?
00;40;18;22 - 00;40;31;06
Cullen
Oh, it's such a fluid role. I think that's one of the first There's one of the first conversations that every DP and director have is it's almost like the vice president, the president, or it's like, What are you going to take care of? What am I going to take care of? What are we going to work on together?
00;40;31;14 - 00;40;53;24
Cullen
Yeah, every director likes it differently. But I'd say that, you know, again, a cinematographer is in so many ways not only a technical role, it is a support position, a creative support position for the director. Yes. In that the director should be able to say, I want this for the for the DP and the DP. A good DP will understand what that vision is.
00;40;54;06 - 00;41;06;04
Cullen
You know, famously, Steven Spielberg and Jannis Kaminski don't even meet before movies now because Spielberg trusts Kaminski so much that he'll fulfill his, you know, his vision.
00;41;06;04 - 00;41;07;12
Clark
And that's Wild.
00;41;07;13 - 00;41;25;27
Cullen
Understands, you know, what Spielberg would go for for a certain shot. And I think that's to me what what makes a really good DP And I think again, it's difficult to narrow down because it's such a fluid role. It is You are there's no role of a deep that it would work on one movie and then work to a next movie and be doing exactly the identical things.
00;41;26;14 - 00;41;57;23
Cullen
I think they're what might be easier is what makes a bad DP, which to me would be very much overstepping your bounds and trying to break the hierarchy. And I think that things like that are really what makes things not conducive to a creative environment on set. Robert Ellsworth and who I actually think is quite a good DP, and Paul Thomas Anderson famously no longer work together despite the fact that they made of, you know, tons of brilliant, brilliant looking movies together.
00;41;58;00 - 00;42;02;03
Cullen
Right. It was because they I think they just didn't get along. And that's.
00;42;02;04 - 00;42;37;29
Clark
Wise. And I think I mean, and that's kind of seems like common sense are obvious, but it's so vital, right? Yeah. You can have an extraordinary look at you. Let's say you you're a director and you're looking to collaborate with a deep I mean, obviously this is this is first and foremost it's you know, not only do they that, you know, they're able to receive your vision, they understand it they can get on the same page with you but that they can, I guess, add to that or even you know without taking away from or adding to it in a way that changes their vision execute that vision.
00;42;39;06 - 00;42;40;29
Clark
You know, technically and.
00;42;41;00 - 00;43;02;05
Cullen
If I can give some advice to to lower budget makers to who might be might be starting out. Well a few things. If you're looking for a DP, just note that especially if you're younger, every single person that goes out and buys themselves a camera package is going to start calling themselves a DP, you know, coming out of film school or whatever they're going to they're going to say that there are.
00;43;02;05 - 00;43;20;03
Cullen
DP And I would also say, look beyond, you know, you'll get reels if you put up. There's tons of Facebook groups that are like, you know, find me a cinematographer, blah, blah, blah, and you can kind of post in those groups and say, Hey, I need a dip for this project, for this date. And so you'll get a bunch of people commenting on it with the reels and things like that, Right?
00;43;20;03 - 00;43;47;04
Cullen
Right. Look beyond those. I would definitely say, because being a DP is so much more than just selecting a good set of lenses and, you know, putting some lights up. Things can look very, very pretty. But I think that so often cinematographers use movies very especially very amateur cinematographers use movies as just options and opportunity for them to get stuff for their demo reel.
00;43;47;20 - 00;44;14;16
Cullen
So their whole goal is to make the most brilliant, pretty looking, you know, done up high octane, high concept looking lighting scenarios so that they can go look at this great, great set up. Whereas what I look for, or at least what I'm impressed by, by whether it's amateur or, you know, very professional, high level DPS, is this restraint really is is simplicity.
00;44;14;16 - 00;44;37;16
Cullen
And, you know, I always think that somebody who can shoot an entire scene with with a window and a bounce to me is going to be a far better and far more flexible and helpful and creative DP than somebody who just knows, you know, the latest ten hour lights that they can rent for a few thousand for a week.
00;44;37;16 - 00;45;01;22
Cullen
And then and then it goes up like that. It's very similar to kind of, again, the rest we've been talking about. It's like if you can't light, if you can't take a balance sheet and put it up with just natural light in the room and make that look good, then there's no way that just putting a whole bunch of you know, LED light panels and shining them at some scantily clad model is going to make you a DP.
00;45;01;22 - 00;45;03;04
Cullen
Can you tell that? I have a lot of experience.
00;45;03;04 - 00;45;12;07
Clark
No, I've seen it. I know exactly. I do know exactly what you're talking about. And I think it's a great point. I mean, you know, look, for people who can do a lot with very little and be.
00;45;12;07 - 00;45;16;26
Cullen
So careful with it to be very, very careful with choosing your DP because.
00;45;16;27 - 00;45;36;02
Clark
Certainly meat you know, I would absolutely say meet with people and I've even gone so far as you know of course like meat with them, But I've even gone so far as to, you know, do a little bit of work, just reviewing shot list and them kind of like camera test and, you know, but depending on the scope of your project, the budget of your project and everything of course.
00;45;36;02 - 00;45;57;00
Clark
But yeah it I mean of course you really can't put enough time and energy into it. And I think, you know, some of the things that Herzog talks about specifically in this lesson are, you know, he talks about, I think the, you know, the ability of a cinematographer to notice nuance and subtlety and, you know, tend to be to be so present there in the moment.
00;45;57;07 - 00;46;22;18
Clark
And, you know, I think he uses a specific example of this cinematographer noticing some subtext in a documentary situation where above a table, these three people were getting along and kind of kissing each other's butts and, you know, being very diplomatic politically. And this cinematographer actually noticed that below the table, literally like a literal table, that the body language of these three people was radically different.
00;46;22;18 - 00;46;44;15
Clark
And you could actually see the the unease and the, you know, resentment between these people do their body language where they thought they weren't being seen. And he uses that as an example of, you know, it was this is the kind of person I want to work with, somebody who is is they're fully present and is extremely sensitive and observant.
00;46;44;25 - 00;46;46;06
Cullen
Observant is the key there.
00;46;46;11 - 00;46;47;01
Clark
And that's that's.
00;46;47;01 - 00;46;50;23
Cullen
Really and that goes for that goes for documentary and narrative.
00;46;50;23 - 00;46;51;09
Clark
Absolutely.
00;46;51;24 - 00;47;13;02
Cullen
You know, because the best thing that you can possibly have in a deep is somebody who also recognizes actors and what their their strengths are visually. And I think that then to switch to switch points to here for just a real quick second rather than, you know, to talk to people who want to be DP's rather than people who want to be directors looking for DP's.
00;47;13;29 - 00;47;33;07
Cullen
I'd say that, you know, if I had very simple advice for somebody who wants to work as a cinematographer, it's not to go on YouTube and listen to, you know, hours of content on there about how to set up a different light to get a certain thing or to, you know, there's some stupid, stupid videos on YouTube. Like what F Stop is the best one.
00;47;33;07 - 00;47;34;13
Clark
Yeah, yeah. It's a.
00;47;34;13 - 00;47;35;19
Cullen
Real video and it's it's.
00;47;35;19 - 00;47;36;04
Clark
Bizarre.
00;47;36;22 - 00;47;39;13
Cullen
But but but rather.
00;47;39;20 - 00;47;40;01
Clark
Well, because.
00;47;40;01 - 00;47;43;01
Cullen
I just pick up a camera and start a family eating dinner.
00;47;43;09 - 00;47;43;18
Clark
Yeah.
00;47;43;25 - 00;47;51;08
Cullen
I couldn't do cooking, making, uh, you know, making food or something like that. And play with the light. Conrad And. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
00;47;51;08 - 00;48;09;22
Clark
No, I was just going to say I totally agree with everything you're saying. I just wanted to add and look at great art. Yes, look at look at art painting. Look at painting, graffiti photography. You know, it's especially looking at still still art because, of course, it really allows you to analyze a specific frame for a long time, of course.
00;48;09;22 - 00;48;31;14
Clark
But, you know, observe the moving picture works of masters as well. But I completely agree. And I just I mean, you know, like many art forms, there are so many videos out there, and I'm sure most of them by well-intentioned people that focus on how do I say this, where it's almost like, here's the secret, how to do this?
00;48;31;14 - 00;48;38;28
Clark
And if you just learn this thing, then you're going to know how to do it like you had mentioned. It's like, well, here's the here's like a perfect F stop for example.
00;48;38;28 - 00;48;51;18
Cullen
It would be like looking at the the Statue of Liberty and saying that, okay, that's a great work of art. Here's how you screw in a nail or rivet or something like that. And like, that's you know, this is the technique that they use to rivet together.
00;48;51;19 - 00;49;01;19
Clark
That's what I mean. Like, here's the secret, right? That's there's, there's so much of this like, here's the secret. If you want to be good at this, then here's the secret. How to do it. And of course, there never are any secrets. They're never da seven lines.
00;49;01;23 - 00;49;25;17
Cullen
You're you don't have to like Conrad L Hall. As I said, he's he's my favorite cinematographer of all time. I think he did some brilliant, brilliant work in his If there was ever a definition of, like, painting with light, he was the He was the one. Yeah. And he famously, uh, usually would just use a single light source and then just bounce it around the room with mirrors or with, uh, with bounces like sheets and things like that.
00;49;25;17 - 00;49;36;25
Cullen
And, you know, he was so, so simple in the way that he lit and lit for story and for mood and not just again, for gimmick.
00;49;36;25 - 00;49;37;10
Clark
Flash.
00;49;37;10 - 00;49;48;17
Cullen
A huge part of of a lot of DP's that are, you know, working in big or Hollywood movies these days as well that that go for flash and they go for a paycheck and they go for.
00;49;48;22 - 00;49;49;05
Clark
Yeah.
00;49;49;10 - 00;50;00;02
Cullen
You know, this this huge I'm going to set up a 50 by 50 light grid that's got, you know, moving colors all over it because it's gonna look really cool. It's like, well, who cares? I don't care about that.
00;50;00;05 - 00;50;19;00
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. But it's a it's a good point to be careful. You know, it's there's one thing I think to learn to teach technical skill, but to think that it's the end all, be all. Mm hmm. You know that this light's going to make you a good cinematographer or this, you know, whatever these, like, specific, like you'd mentioned, like, there's some perfect f stop or something or whatever.
00;50;19;00 - 00;50;26;28
Clark
It's, you know, definitely stay away from anybody that's trying to sell you some snake oil, that there's only one way to do it, and that that's the secret to do it, you know?
00;50;26;29 - 00;50;38;20
Cullen
And as Herzog says, too, it's kind of gets in this whole esthetic thing that he talks about, which is like, don't hunt for an esthetic. He never wants for an esthetic. And I think that that is a huge part of modern cinematography.
00;50;38;20 - 00;50;39;29
Clark
It's a really great point.
00;50;40;00 - 00;51;07;04
Cullen
You go on to Instagram and it's like if you look up hashtag cinematography or whatever, it's all about the esthetic of it. It's all about, you know, look at these these neutral browns and it's got this fall esthetic or something like that. Yeah. And whereas I think it's, it's the what I at least, you know, my intention if I'm whether I'm shooting my own thing or if I'm working on somebody else's project is to let the subject matter dictate the cinematography.
00;51;07;10 - 00;51;08;03
Clark
Yeah, yeah.
00;51;08;03 - 00;51;22;19
Cullen
No it not to make the decisions, you know, not to use it. I don't, I don't really care about color palettes. I don't care about things like that. I don't, I don't go into anything like that. I would much rather take a look at the image that we're getting on set and go, okay, how can I accentuate this?
00;51;22;19 - 00;51;42;23
Cullen
How can I take what is happening naturally, whether it be interior or exterior and and use that naturalistic elements to heighten it rather than to go in and go, you know, in advance, plan out every single little detail about where the light's going to be and what the color of that light's going to be, what the what the grade is going to be like afterwards.
00;51;42;23 - 00;51;43;01
Cullen
Right.
00;51;43;01 - 00;52;06;15
Clark
It's well it's such an interesting, you know, kind of philosophical discussion. And it's something that I just you know, it's one of the many things that I just love about Herzog that he gets me thinking about these things. But, you know, a couple of things here. I mean, one, he talks about favoring momentum over style. And it's interesting that he uses the word momentum because, again, I just you know, he has so much about urgency.
00;52;06;15 - 00;52;30;19
Clark
He's so much about physicality. He's so much about allowing, you know, create in a situation where the subconscious force is going to spring forth and be, you know, be careful about overanalyzing and over predicting and over manipulating things. And I couldn't agree more. I mean, he talks about in that lesson about, you know, be careful, you know, and I've been here, I've seen this, you know, I like I love DP's.
00;52;30;19 - 00;52;51;04
Clark
I'm not one myself. I love them. But sometimes you can you're on set and and you've got your performers are red hot. You've got you know, I mean, you're trying to manage the energy and emotion of your performers and you've got a deep who's wanting, you know, manipulate every single tiny.
00;52;51;08 - 00;52;54;07
Cullen
90 to put this out like a little bit too hot and like.
00;52;54;07 - 00;53;14;07
Clark
You know, and it's like, yes, I mean, I'm like, you know, I completely appreciate a person's dedication to doing, you know, everything that they feel like they can do to make a film wonderful. But you've got to know as a director where to to draw a line diplomatically and say, okay, hey, I appreciate what you're doing. But our focus here is the story.
00;53;14;07 - 00;53;34;29
Clark
Our focus is the momentum of story. And like you said, it's it's allowing the subject to dictate and realizing, of course, that, you know, there's compromises between every department. And I feel like performance is such an important one. I mean, performances we've talked about this, too, is such a fragile, transient, vaporous thing. If you've got that, if you've got that right there, go with it.
00;53;35;19 - 00;53;40;18
Clark
Don't don't stifle that by by just overproducing everything to the ears.
00;53;40;23 - 00;53;56;19
Cullen
You've really got to learn how to rein in perfectionism and whether that's your own or whether that somebody else on the crew or an actor or whatever. Yeah, I really I I'm not I'm lucky that I'm not a perfectionist because it's definitely a personality trait that some people just have. And yeah, their fault.
00;53;57;22 - 00;53;58;10
Clark
It's not their.
00;53;58;10 - 00;54;13;27
Cullen
Fault. Yeah well I mean, oftentimes it isn't like it's this compulsion, right? Yeah. And I, I'm very, very grateful that I'm not because there are so many times where something won't be perfect and I'll be like, No, it's good enough. I'm. I'm happy with that. And I think that we should move on for the sake.
00;54;13;27 - 00;54;32;13
Clark
And it's about priority moment. I mean, I guess, you know, Yeah, it's about priority. And I think, you know, in it like you were it just to kind of go back a little bit to what you would started talking about, you know, about this premeditated esthetic. I think it's so interesting to me that, I mean, there's no question that that Herzog has an esthetic.
00;54;32;13 - 00;54;45;21
Clark
I think you can see, you know, there are so many themes for sure in his films. You know, I think like his overriding kind of philosophy or his kind of the way that he sees the world comes through so clearly and.
00;54;45;22 - 00;54;48;25
Cullen
Even just visually, he really likes a wide angle lens and.
00;54;48;25 - 00;55;10;20
Clark
Visually he's got. Right. And it's I just love the way he ends this lesson, right, where he's like, you know, you know, he's he talks about not being very consciously preoccupied with his esthetic himself and even to the point where he is, you know, telling his collaborators, his DP is, hey, I don't you know, don't get artsy fartsy me.
00;55;10;20 - 00;55;34;15
Clark
I love that terminology. You know, I love it. But he's like, you know, there's something so interesting and key here, I think, to the creative process as a whole where he talks about, you know, look, I don't premeditate this, and yet here it is. Somehow all of my films, they clearly have an esthetic. You can't argue that they don't.
00;55;34;29 - 00;55;56;22
Clark
But but it's but I'm not working toward that. Yeah. The esthetic seeps in. Well, I think I happens and and I, I just love I love, love, love, love that. He's like, I don't know how that happens. Yeah, But what's more, I don't want to know. It's like this keeping the mystery. It's allowing. And he does this in his writing.
00;55;56;22 - 00;56;18;23
Clark
He does this in so many aspects of his creative process where he's like, I want the mystery to be. I want there to be a subconscious, spontaneous aspect to my work. Maybe that is his esthetic. I mean, it's like it it his voice, his his authentic voice comes through so clearly in the in so many aspects of his work.
00;56;18;23 - 00;56;40;24
Clark
And I think this is a big reason why I think, you know, we get so whether we're writing or whether we're you know, we're composing a shot as a deep I mean, I think sometimes we get so analytical, we operate so much from our shoulders up that we forget that there's actually this whole body of esthetic that lies here from your shoulders down.
00;56;40;24 - 00;56;41;27
Cullen
Just naturally, that.
00;56;41;27 - 00;57;10;29
Clark
You can't articulate with language or with I mean, there's this whole subconscious ocean of esthetic. It's inherent. It's like part of the human condition. And I think sometimes you really cut off this huge depth of esthetic by by only kind of recognizing or thinking that there's just this like shoulder up, like analytical aspect to esthetics. So I think it's wonderful.
00;57;10;29 - 00;57;14;03
Clark
I think it's like, no, I think it's this lesson's great. Yeah. Yeah.
00;57;14;03 - 00;57;35;11
Cullen
And again, it's, it's that idea of applying each image for what it needs to be and represent, which is just, you know, again, it hits the nail on the head and it's exactly like you said that, that we all, every single human being talks in a certain way and writes in a certain way and we are I'm not consciously thinking about the style of which I, you know, stringing together my sentences because you wouldn't.
00;57;35;11 - 00;57;50;27
Clark
Just able to yeah let's like he uses this great analogy it's like, look, okay, I'm writing longhand and he jokes, he's like, oh, nobody writes longhand. You'd send a tweet now, but, you know, but it's like, look, if you were so preoccupied by your handwriting that you wouldn't be able to actually write the sentence.
00;57;50;27 - 00;57;53;12
Cullen
Yeah, don't pay too much attention to style. You forget to write a book.
00;57;53;12 - 00;58;12;14
Clark
Yeah, Yeah, a good book I write. And I think it's so it's such an interesting point. And it's certainly what I mean. It speaks to me. It speaks to me deeply. It's certainly something that I need to be reminded of. Mm hmm. I have a tendency to kind of get, you know, shoulders up analytical. And so much of our creation really takes place in the body and the gut in the heart.
00;58;14;02 - 00;58;37;29
Clark
And it's just a great reminder of that, you know, that we are I think all of us, every single one of us were natural born storytellers. I think we're storytelling machines, and I think all of us have a unique esthetic. That's that's just fundamentally it's a part of all that we are. It's a combination of our DNA and our, you know, the nature and nurture combination that makes us all singularly unique.
00;58;38;13 - 00;58;43;26
Clark
And you can't just get to all of that with conscious premeditation. You just can't.
00;58;44;13 - 00;58;48;05
Cullen
Mm hmm. Exactly. No, it's it's a great way to end it, though.
00;58;48;06 - 00;59;07;27
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. All right, well, then on that note, everybody get out there, man, and start shooting and get to. What are you waiting for? What are you waiting for? That's right. With whatever camera you've got, get out there and shoot. All right, man. Well, as always call it, it's been a blast. Thank you so much for being here and for everybody out there listening.
00;59;08;05 - 00;59;15;18
Clark
We appreciate you as well. Thank you so much for hanging in there with us. I hope it's been an enjoyable one. And until next time, we'll see you then.
00;59;16;08 - 00;59;34;29
Cullen
See you in.