Cullen
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to episode nine of the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. I'm Cullen McFater and I'm joined again, as per usual, by Clark Coffey.
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Clark
I'm still here. You can't get rid of me all around.
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Cullen
Today we're going to be going over lesson ten. I know it gets a little bit confusing there, but the Lesson ten of the Herzog podcast sorry, the Herzog Masterclass. We are the Herzog podcast, and this one's about.
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Clark
The Herzog Masterclass.
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Cullen
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. This one talk about shooting strategy. And and so it's sort of related to our last episode, which was about basically everything going on before the cameras are rolling and like, you know, set rules and ways to prepare yourself. But now this is about the actual shooting and the, you know, the the point when the camera is recording.
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Clark
Actually rolling and.
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Cullen
How to get to that point and how to sort of more, I guess, rather than the set rules, a little bit more of a creative tinge on this one about about like a creative process to get you to that point.
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Clark
And right off the bat, Herzog says come on prepared.
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Cullen
Yes, that's his big thing.
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Clark
Oh, my gosh. And it's it's it's awesome. You know, so I've seen this quoted in other places. If you if you read reviews of his masterclass and I think he's said this in other interviews as well. I know he has. It's one of his more famous kind of yeah. No, it's controversial, but you know, he definitely draws a line in the sand here and he's like, storyboards are the instruments of Coward's.
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Clark
Yes. And if you want to do your your voice here, you can call in. But what a great line.
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Cullen
Strength of cowards.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
No, I mean and that's it's an interesting because I think again, it's one of the things that's so it's such a it's like a soundbite and yeah so he does admit later that the he does the needed for things like there are caveats and things like that but I do. Do you storyboard card do you.
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Clark
So so yeah I'll so I have I have never storyboarded but I have also never shot a scenes that had complicated special effects or really complicated quarry choreographed action. But what I have done is this. So I, you know, for other shoots, what I have done in preparation is I have made shot lists for myself, So not storyboarded, but I have written them out and for myself, what this gets me doing is it puts me in a very visual headspace where I can start to visualize the film scene by scene by scene moment by moment by moment.
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Clark
Now, it's not necessarily the case that when I arrive on set, I'm following this to an absolute tee. But I do have to say that I don't show up unprepared, you know, Now maybe, you know, look, Herzog is clearly he's a gifted filmmaker and clearly he's got a lot of films under his belt now. And so a lot of things that are just intuitive muscle memory type things to him may not be so for other directors with less experience.
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Clark
So, you know, when I'm shooting something that's got any kind of complexity to it whatsoever, I do put myself through the exercise of creating shot list and I try to push myself past, you know, just, you know, past the low lying fruit. You know.
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Cullen
I think it's interesting that you say, like you said earlier, that when you shot list, it's for you. I almost find that you don't follow it to a tee. What I find is that shot listing opens me up and allows me to be more creative on set because I have a list that I so I know. Like, it's kind of counterintuitive, but yeah, because I have a short list.
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Cullen
I know what I need to get, and that saves me the pressure of having to worry. Am I going to miss this shot in allows me to go, Let's throw a shot in here. Let's add a shot, the.
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Clark
Riff off of it. Right. So, yeah, good way to think of it is like it's almost, you know, it's like if this were the, the, you know, the sheet music or something for a piece, you know, but instead of playing it. Nope, I know by note it's like it allows me to improvise. I take off from that place.
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Clark
Right. But I think for me it, it just helps me break down the script and it helps me put it into kind of these visual blocks and, you know, which are just they're set up and.
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Cullen
I sort of I find that I find too, that storyboarding sort of is the antithesis of that, that I find storyboarding really locks you into a visual style.
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Clark
And I think it's a different way of thinking, right? Yeah, it's yeah. So, so when I shot List, I am, you know, it's really activating my imagination, right? It's I'm having to you know, I'm not taking my visualized imaginings and putting them on a piece of paper and then going onto set and then replicating that picture that I've drawn on a piece of paper.
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Clark
Right. It's still language, it's not visual. And so there's still that.
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Cullen
There's the moment where your brain visualize it.
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Clark
Right? And so, you know, I don't know if Herzog you know, I would be curious to kind of hear what he might say about shot list versus versus storyboards. But, you know, and for me, I think, you know, the more shooting I do, the more comfortable I get improvising. But for me, it's I really I try to I don't want to get on set and then just grab the low lying, clichéd shots.
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Clark
Right. The low line. Yeah. It's that you know, where it's just like a two for an over the shoulder, over shoulder. And it's like, I might as well be making a soap opera. Yeah, I know. I'm trying to. And not just for the sake of it though. I mean, not, you know, I'm not sitting here like, oh, it's Dutch angle, this thing just for the hell of it, you know, obviously motivated by story, you know, motivated by story.
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Clark
But, you know, it just it's right. I mean, look, movies are visual mediums and which which of course you would think, Yeah, of course they are. Of course they are. But look at how many films and television shows don't seem to understand that. It's a visual storyteller.
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Cullen
Rely on exposition.
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Clark
Because it's basically it's basically shot theater in and a lot of television is shot theater especially. But a lot of films are too. And so at least for me, I'm trying to think of, you know, how much information, how much story can I convey visually. Exactly. So it's like trying to achieve a density of visual storytelling, at least for me, requires preparation.
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Cullen
No, I'm sorry. Go ahead.
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Clark
No, I just said, you know, but. But if I don't know. How many films has Herzog shot now? 40 some odd. I'm not sure. You know, when I get to a place like that, hopefully if I ever get to a place like that, you know, I mean, I think he's he's an he's at a level experience where these kind of things are muscle memory for him.
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Clark
It's not exactly yet.
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Cullen
So, I mean, I will say, though, about storyboarding and this is kind of almost proving his point. So the feature that I'm directing coming up, of course, is my first feature that I'm directing. Yeah. And the producers and I sort of reached an agreement where I said, okay, to ease your nerves, I will storyboard it. And so in that instance is essentially literally the instrument of Coward's because it's about using nerves.
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Cullen
Yeah. So it does kind of prove his point that like normally I wouldn't, I don't storyboard, I don't find that they ever help me.
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Clark
But you had to.
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Cullen
Kind of but, but I said I said you know what I'll I'll and and they're being very open to the idea that it's not going to be steadfast. We probably won't even have the storyboards on set. It'll probably just be kind of a pre thing where we go through just the shots and kind of go, okay, here's here's what I'm thinking of for this moment.
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Cullen
But yeah, it's literally, in that instance, technically an instrument of character.
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Clark
And I think that's a really good that's a good perspective to bring to it, you know, And I think that's probably that's likely some of what at least some of what Herzog is actually speaking to, you know, sadly, the coward may not be you, the director, the cowboy may be your investors are producers. And, you know, it may be something that you have to do on occasion in order to in order to direct the film, in order to keep the film financed and to keep your position in it.
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Clark
So so that those are you know, those are situations that you may come to. Now, of course, you can do the storyboard and then once you get on set, you know, do your thing. But sometimes, yeah, that's a piece of the bureaucratic machine that you have to that you have to do to keep the money happy. You know?
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Cullen
Yeah, No, exactly. And I think that that's, that's in essence exactly the point is that I think that you do it is a lot of and of course this this episode isn't necessarily about that negotiation that was a few episodes ago. But just to reiterate the points from that, so much of it is about the give and take.
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Cullen
So I know I could have totally put my foot down and said, No, I'm not storyboarding, I don't storyboard, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. But I said, okay, we can go through storyboards. The you know what I'm thinking of for the shots, however, and again, I put in like a little kind of stipulation where I sort of said, I don't want them on set, I don't want to hear anything about it.
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Cullen
If, if the shot that we're doing doesn't fit for your storyboard or I don't want it, you know, that's my only caveat in this, that I'll do the same thoughts and but I'm not going to I'm not going to use them on set. I'm not going to.
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Clark
These aren't going to be Bible that I deviate from. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Well, that was smart of you, I think. And that's a good that's good advice for people. If you happen to find yourself in that situation where you're storyboarding for someone else. Mm hmm. Because it's their requirement. If, if you can work in some kind of stipulations like that where they're not on set or they're on set, but, you know, they they don't have to be the be all alpha omega.
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Clark
Absolutely.
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Cullen
Exactly. Yeah. And I think that even in that instance, too, it's it's one of those things where it's it's I think it's just keeping everyone happy, too, you know, like keeping keeping everyone comfortable.
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Clark
But you've got to do it. You got to do it. You got to do. Yeah.
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Cullen
And and, you know, as as Herzog said in the previous episodes, too, what's that? He will you know, he of course, he takes no for an answer of course seat Of course he's willing to compromise. And the only time, you know, actually just a real quick touch on the special effects bit to it was interesting that I understand in CG heavy movies with big effects sequences why you would use that.
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Cullen
But in limited experience I have in special effects, I've almost found more interesting to not storyboard them and just again, to short list or kind of give an idea because then I can have fun kind of working on those effects afterwards. There was there's one effect that get very incredibly simple where I had to get words. I had to basically have figured a way for somebody to have a conversation with a piece of paper that they would write down a message on the paper, and then words would appear on the page.
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Clark
Right.
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Cullen
And I want to do it in-camera. I wanted to get it so that it would you know, it would fit in. So basically, I had made up like 50 different copies of this piece of paper with trying to make the handwriting identical. And then I would just in one shot, have the one piece of paper without that note and then swap out the piece of paper.
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Cullen
But it was one of those things that I figured out on set I didn't write or during tests I.
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Clark
Did this effect in-camera.
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Cullen
I did it in-camera and was.
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Clark
Like a slight motion. I'm trying to.
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Cullen
Know. So what I did was I painted out the so I had the the one that so let's say that like the line that the character writes is like hello. And then the write the line that appears is, you know, good day. What I did was I had one note that said one piece of paper that only said hello.
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Cullen
And then I had another piece of paper that said hello and good day. And then I tried to copy the handwriting exactly for the hello. So it looked like it was the same paper, right? And then I painted out the I had the initial hello plate without the good day and then I painted out the good day on the other plate and matched them and then kind of did this weird, almost like ink effect coming through the page.
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Cullen
Okay. But again, I mean, that's that's not a kind of a bad.
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Clark
But not to almost it is all about Yeah yeah yeah okay.
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Cullen
But it was it was.
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Clark
But it's.
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Cullen
Just one of the things again that I came up with on, on testing because I was like, I don't know what this is going to look like. And I think that maybe that something that could be applied to those larger adult scenes and things like that where, well.
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Clark
You know, it's interesting. I mean, I have zero I mean, I have I have flat out zero experience working in, you know, extremely heavy special effects late in films. And I always use Marvel movies as an example because they seem to be the epitome of these type of films. Yeah, but yeah, but even, you know, other films can have an extensive amount of special effects.
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Clark
I think we might have talked about Fincher and, you know, he doesn't make action movies in that way in the vein of Marvel at all. But his films have quite a bit of special effects work, a lot of CGI as well, just a different type of application of CGI, but I would imagine the more complex you get, the more pre visualized, the more I mean, they've probably got to plan these things to get to within an inch of their life, I'm guessing.
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Clark
And so maybe for simpler special effects, you can kind of, you know, sort things out on the day on set. But I'm guessing, you know, from what I've seen, when you really have some, you know, some significant, complex special effects, it's boy, these things are like pre-viz like crazy. I mean, it's like you're like, you know, they've got like a PlayStation four game of the whole scene before that.
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Clark
You know what I mean? With all this crazy previs software they've got out now, you know, and you know, and it'd be interesting to speak to some people who've done extensive acting work on a film like that. And I'm imagining that that is one of the larger challenges of working in an entire greenscreen environment with little to nothing to react to.
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Clark
Yeah, it's tough. So so props to people like Robert Downey and, you know, a lot of these actors who give pretty darn good performances and in, you know, in in a green suit, in a green room talking to a tennis ball. It's pretty I mean.
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Cullen
There is that there is.
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Clark
That to get to.
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Cullen
That the the famous shot of George Lucas working on the Star Wars prequels where he's like highlighting what is real in the storyboard and what's going to be CGI.
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Clark
I mean, and I feel like those are great examples of, you know, people have talked about those films to death, but yes, great examples of performances that just had to have suffered horrifically because there was nothing to react to. There was no real on set. But but not to get too far away here from from Herzog's masterclass. But well, that's cool though, and I think you know was smaller.
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Clark
Right. And I think it has to do a lot with what, you know, as a director. Your experience level with these kind of things are going to dictate to what extent you can you can hold back and not do too much planning versus, you know, figuring things out on set. I mean, I don't think I'd recommend if you have no idea how you're going to get an effect shot or you've got a complicated choreograph scene.
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Clark
I don't know. You know, I don't know about showing up and not having any ideas about how to do that.
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Cullen
Especially if you're beginning.
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Clark
Especially if you're beginning. But I have a hunch, though. I have a hunch that, you know, when Herzog says, you know, he doesn't he doesn't storyboard and he's kind of coming in unprepared, my hunch is that he's actually quite prepared. Yeah. It's just that he has it premeditated every single action.
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Cullen
And he's open to flexibility.
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Clark
And, yeah, I would never want to put words in his mouth. That's just my interpreter. And but I think unprepared and not premeditated to the end are not the same thing. I imagine he's actually very prepared when he walks on set.
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Cullen
I agree.
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Clark
Yeah. Yeah. So once he's there, Herzog talks about, you know, working himself into a state of intense vision during the shooting himself. And this is really compelling to me. He, you know, at many different areas in the filmmaking process, as Herzog talks about, you know, the importance of urgency and the importance of like working yourself into an intensity.
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Clark
And I think this is this is super interesting in and again, this is just my interpretation. Obviously, you know, I never put words in his mouth or, you know, but my reading of that, what that is to me, I feel like he's clearly somebody who works in an extremely intuitive level. Yeah. And, you know, it's like there's this Myers-Briggs stuff, right?
00;17;01;26 - 00;17;24;05
Clark
His personality test. And, you know, some people are thinkers, some people are feelers, some people are, you know, Intuitive's and other people, you know, there's all these different kind of personality categories, which I can't remember them all right. Now. But I know for myself, I've tested as more of a feeling intuitive type person, and this kind of stuff really resonates with me.
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Clark
And so it really speaks to me. And maybe this is part of why his films and kind of his philosophy of filmmaking really speak to me in general. I feel like we maybe come from some of the same places, but that's what I that's the sense that I kind of get that he really works from a feeling, intuitive place and and it's so much more about instinctual almost.
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Clark
Yeah. And, and like working yourself into an emotional intensity that propels you as opposed to thinking and analyzing and planning. Right. Almost like I would imagine, like Fincher maybe is more of a director that works from that angle. Of course, I could be completely wrong here, but, you know, just just kind of the like over generalizing perhaps a little bit.
00;18;09;13 - 00;18;15;03
Clark
You know, I could see Fincher being like a thinking, planning, analyzing, cerebral kind of directing.
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Cullen
And I think he I think you're not wrong there. I think he is quite that. I mean which is funny too though, because I think a lot of people get that wrong. And again, not to not to digress too much, but I think a lot of people get that wrong about Kubrick is that a lot of people think that Kubrick is meticulously planned.
00;18;30;14 - 00;18;51;15
Cullen
Yeah, you know, like, yeah, dictator on set who everything was was planned out in advance, whereas he would very often get on the set with no storyboard, no shots planned, and kind of plan the day as it went on and just kind of improvise and, you know, would go, why don't we you know, there's those famous shots of him walking around The Shining set with a viewfinder sort of going like, Where do we want to shoot this from?
00;18;51;15 - 00;19;02;29
Cullen
And so I think that that's again, I think people build up these personas about a lot of directors where it's like, what what's what's the best way to to draw a picture? Yeah, exactly. That's the thing.
00;19;03;06 - 00;19;21;24
Clark
We're all a mixture. We all of us operate at different, you know, levels of all of these metrics. You know, of course, none of us are completely intuitive and then not analytical. I mean, that's, you know, we're a mixture of all these things, but but it's the sense that I get, you know, as I try to suss out what Herzog speaking to in this lesson where he's talking.
00;19;21;24 - 00;19;47;00
Clark
And that's kind of that's how I apply it to myself. And and it's it's one of the reasons I love we just talked in our last episode about working right next to the camera, right, with actors right there. You know, it's a physicality. It's a it's it's it's such a feeling intuitive, you know, emotional thing. Or at least for me, when it's working.
00;19;47;08 - 00;20;09;28
Clark
It is. And I actually almost feel like it's that analytical kind of cerebral part of me is actually like, diminished or it's like when I know I'm really in a flow. Those things actually kind of recede quite a bit for me. And I really feel like I'm moving and acting and making decisions from a physical place if that even makes sense.
00;20;10;06 - 00;20;11;01
Cullen
No, I know what you mean.
00;20;11;01 - 00;20;31;05
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for me, Herzog, is this really makes sense to me and it really speaks to me now, of course, how you do this, everybody's got to kind of find your own way. I mean, this is, this is an integral part of everybody's creative process that some people are challenged with kind of refining over a long period of time.
00;20;31;05 - 00;20;55;27
Clark
Some people seem to intuit their creative process out very quickly and early in life. I've had to work pretty hard to refine and find mine. I don't know what your experience has been about yours, but but everybody's got to find their own ways to work themselves into this kind of emotional intensity. But I love I like just like it would be so, so, so, so amazing.
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Clark
So obviously, you and I were fans of Herzog. This is clear. If you're listening, you're probably also a fan of Herzog otherwise. Okay, that's cool that your listeners are.
00;21;04;27 - 00;21;05;27
Cullen
They might be a fan of us.
00;21;06;03 - 00;21;29;27
Clark
Maybe they're. Oh, well, that's that's an awful sweet thought, but I just I would so love to be on set on a on a film with Herzog. I love how he talks about how this, you know, kind of, you know, coming without this premeditated, fully thought out plan keeps your crew and your cast on edge. It keeps them sharp.
00;21;29;27 - 00;21;51;06
Clark
And I, I would love to experience it. I would love to experience it. I think, you know, there is definitely an interesting aspect to think about this, right? If you don't storyboard, if you don't have everything fully premeditated and planned out to the end it, I would imagine that really does, right? I mean, obviously within reason. I mean, your actors have to know what scenes you're going to be shooting that you got to.
00;21;51;06 - 00;21;52;09
Cullen
Have like, yeah, right.
00;21;52;10 - 00;22;12;27
Clark
That I mean, I had just come out of the blue but but to really be physically there with your DP, with your, you know, with with your actors, you know, blocking scenes out or, you know, setting up shots and kind of working things in the moment. I think that's that really does help keep people present.
00;22;13;03 - 00;22;36;08
Cullen
Which again, is where I think again and I think not to assume anything, but I think that Herzog would agree, which is that I prepare so that I don't have to worry about that. It's that essence, right? Like I prepare I prepare to kind of like we were talking about the beginning, the episode, like I prepare to I prepare my shot list so that I can go off of it so that I that I don't have to so they don't have to follow it.
00;22;36;17 - 00;22;44;01
Cullen
Yeah. And I think that that makes things so much more easier and so much less stressful of, you know, if you're stressed and if you're thinking about like, oh, do I have this.
00;22;44;06 - 00;23;04;04
Clark
Is Sarandos your creativity stress. I feel like anxiety is the is the creative creativity killer. Yeah. For me at least. I mean, there's there's an edge that's good to have and that's, you know. Herzog just talking about keeping your cat crew and cast on edge. There's an edge. There's like an excitement that's good to have anxiety, at least for me.
00;23;04;04 - 00;23;22;06
Clark
And not so much anxiety will definitely, I imagine, like two hands around my you know, it's like creativity throughout. And it's no, it's no good for me. Yeah. I think some people may respond differently to that. But yeah, for me, I have to have kind of an energy as good anxiety. Not so much.
00;23;22;13 - 00;23;25;13
Cullen
Now. Exactly.
00;23;25;13 - 00;23;39;20
Clark
Now here's we're getting into a topic that Herzog covers here in this lesson that I, I definitely have some specific opinions about and I'm really interested to hear yours shooting coverage.
00;23;40;03 - 00;23;40;17
Cullen
Mm hmm.
00;23;40;25 - 00;24;14;01
Clark
And wow, I have definitely seen some different theories and application on many different shoots in this area. Yeah, but. Well, we'll start with what Herzog says here in this lesson, and then I want to hear your thoughts on this. But Herzog says avoid too much coverage. As a matter of fact, he basically says here in this lesson that he shoots very, very little coverage to the point that, you know, like people can be concerned.
00;24;14;01 - 00;24;32;16
Clark
You know, his producers can be concerned, the studios can be concerned. But he specifically mentions one of his actors, Nicolas Cage, being thrilled. And as an actor, yes, you would generally be thrilled because, wow, it takes a ton of the tedium and monotony out of a shoot if you don't have to be there shooting coverage all day long.
00;24;32;28 - 00;24;39;05
Clark
But so Herzog stance is avoid shooting much coverage. Cohen, what do you think?
00;24;39;14 - 00;24;50;26
Cullen
No, I agree. I don't I don't like coverage. I don't I there was a movie that came out last year, I believe, or two years ago, the bad times at the Isle Royale. I'm not sure if you saw that.
00;24;50;26 - 00;24;51;11
Clark
I didn't.
00;24;52;07 - 00;24;55;16
Cullen
It was all coverage. It was insane. It was like, well, tell me.
00;24;55;16 - 00;25;05;22
Clark
What to go to. So why do you not what do you what do you think of like when you say I agree with Herzog, I'm not a fan. Tell me a little bit more about I mean, what do you see?
00;25;05;22 - 00;25;28;00
Cullen
As I just know, I I think it's a big part of it is learning to direct like an editor and yes and no where you're going to cut and what you're going to to in when you're shooting. And I think that a lot of people that don't think that way and haven't trained themselves to think that way, they shoot a ton of coverage because it's you know, and again, there's there's an understanding to that where it's like, hey, maybe they want to make those decisions in the editing room.
00;25;28;00 - 00;25;46;22
Clark
But and that's I think that that's what that's kind of what it is. I think that what you're doing is procrastinating on your decision making. That's how it is. So for me. So I agree. I agree with you and I agree with Herzog. And I have worked on projects where I've worked with people who have the exact opposite take where their mentality is.
00;25;46;29 - 00;25;51;21
Clark
No, no, no. Let's get everything. Let's shoot everything we can possibly shoot. And that way.
00;25;51;21 - 00;25;51;29
Cullen
I.
00;25;52;06 - 00;26;06;00
Clark
Go back into the editing room because it's tempting, right? It's tempting. Let's think about it. It's like, okay, you're because here's the mentality. Generally. It's like this, okay, look, we spend all this money up to this point. We have everybody here, we have the actors, we have the crew, and we're on location.
00;26;06;06 - 00;26;06;22
Cullen
Let's get it.
00;26;06;23 - 00;26;25;00
Clark
Why wouldn't. Right. Like, why would we not shoot everything we can possibly shoot? I mean, and on surface face value, this makes sense, right? This makes kind of a logical kind of sense. It's like, Well, yeah, of course. Let's let's shoot everything that we could possibly shoot that way. No matter what happens in editing, we've got it. Like we can do something with it.
00;26;25;10 - 00;26;46;13
Clark
Yes, but I can not disagree more with it. Exactly. I think what you're what you're doing a couple of things in my opinion. So first of all, you're procrastinating on all the decision making that should be taking place right there on location. You should be deciding what the film is going to look like right there. And and like you said, you should be thinking directing as an editor.
00;26;46;16 - 00;27;12;28
Clark
You should be able to visualize this story in your head. I mean, you should have been visualizing it long before you're on set. But this should be the execution of those visual decisions. And if you're just shooting everything, then you're pushing all of those decisions back to the and to the editor. And even if you are the editor, if you the director are the editor, which happens, of course, on a lot of smaller projects, you're still that procrastination will not help you.
00;27;13;07 - 00;27;25;23
Clark
It definitely won't help you if you're giving all this footage to another outside editor. But it won't help you either. If if you're the editor and what I feel like is that it dilutes everything.
00;27;25;29 - 00;27;31;28
Cullen
Yeah, it makes. It's like spreading too much butter over like a big piece or too little butter over a big piece of bread. Right.
00;27;31;28 - 00;27;38;03
Clark
I was going to say, you can't have too much butter. Come on. Come on, man. Like, what's the. I don't even understand how this language that you're speaking.
00;27;38;13 - 00;27;42;16
Cullen
But no, I think that it does exactly that It loses the focus.
00;27;42;27 - 00;27;44;08
Clark
Absolutely. You should be.
00;27;44;15 - 00;27;59;10
Cullen
You know, if you're not if you if you don't have an idea or a vision, enough in that day's shoot to know the shots that are going to appear on the screen or hopefully appear on the screen, then what are you shooting for? What are you doing at that point? You're as Herzog says, you're a garbage collector.
00;27;59;22 - 00;28;22;28
Clark
Absolutely. Yes. I think that and I love it like he has such a wonderful way with language and which makes sense, of course. But yeah, I mean, it's absolutely and I've had this problem in specifically in documentary films that I've made and we're going to get he specifically touches on some some advice or suggestions for documentary filmmaking here.
00;28;23;10 - 00;29;05;25
Clark
But you know, I've had that problem where I was not focused enough and it was it was and I'm still working on this. I'm learning with a narrative film. I feel like I'm more in touch with this in documentary filmmaking. I'm working on it where I have a specific vision for the film. And it's a balance for me of letting the documentary tell me or show me where it wants to go, but having a concrete vision as well and actually taking the reins and shaping not not just like, you know, being a fly on the wall and letting the footage go where it will.
00;29;05;29 - 00;29;26;00
Clark
But actually, you know, having a vision and directing that documentary such that, you know, it conforms to some extent to my vision, although, you know, maintaining flexibility, of course, to go with where the footage takes you. But, I mean, I've come back from shooting documentary footage with so much footage, I can't even do anything with it now. Yeah.
00;29;26;01 - 00;29;49;12
Clark
It's like paralyzed and paralyzed because there's so many hours of footage. And now I'm sitting here editing or I'm trying to pass it off to another editor, and they look at it and they're overwhelmed. They're like, I don't know what what do you want to do with this? You have 100 hours of footage. So I've been down that road still learning when it comes to documentaries, but yeah.
00;29;49;18 - 00;29;57;12
Cullen
No, it can be it can be really difficult. It can be really especially documentary can be really difficult to prevent yourself because there's times when you're like, Oh, let's just let the camera.
00;29;57;12 - 00;29;58;00
Clark
Roll, right?
00;29;58;00 - 00;30;00;01
Cullen
And get everything and that can be really useful.
00;30;00;05 - 00;30;00;13
Clark
Well, and.
00;30;00;14 - 00;30;03;08
Cullen
It's also I can see where it can be absolute help.
00;30;03;19 - 00;30;12;24
Clark
I mean, I almost wonder if you could trick yourself into thinking, okay, I'm shooting with film. So like, you likely or not, especially with a documentary, you're not going to be shooting with film, but it's almost like if you could, like, convince.
00;30;12;24 - 00;30;26;28
Cullen
Yourself, I mean, in the very least I would say on on cameras, like the one that I have now, if I'm shooting in raw on, you know, at least you're going to run out of speed. A huge I could run out of space. And the you know, most cinema cameras don't really have a delete function on them. A lot of it's a.
00;30;26;28 - 00;30;30;14
Clark
Pain in the butt. You are right. You've got to. Yeah, yep, yep, yep. Yeah, of.
00;30;30;14 - 00;30;34;07
Cullen
Course. Have more, you know, more space than a magazine a film would. But.
00;30;34;16 - 00;30;51;27
Clark
And it's time. As opposed to money, generally speaking. But, you know, you could take the time and upload the footage and done it. You could do these things. But yeah, so I mean, sometimes in, in whatever ways you might be able to kind of game it and trick yourself into, into working with some kind of urgency and, you know, scarcity.
00;30;52;07 - 00;31;16;14
Clark
But yeah, so I've been down that road so I can definitely speak from experience, you know, and I've also been down that road on other projects for narratives where the idea was, let's just shoot everything. And it just that lack of focus just really and that procrastination of decision making never. I have literally never seen it help a film one time.
00;31;17;02 - 00;31;33;18
Clark
I mean, I've seen some small instances where it was like, Oh, thank God we had that insert or, you know, thank God we had this angle. But, but as far as actually helping a film or as far as actually making a film better or making, you know, actually having the story come together and editing, I've never seen it.
00;31;33;28 - 00;31;40;01
Cullen
And you know what I think the issue is? I think that there's a huge misunderstanding of, say, like a movie, for example, like Apocalypse Now.
00;31;40;13 - 00;31;41;04
Clark
Or the first.
00;31;41;04 - 00;32;04;13
Cullen
Work print cut was like five and a half hours. And sure, that works for that movie. And maybe that's how Coppola likes to do that. But I think people see that and go, Oh, that means that, you know, my first cut should be super long. And and, you know, it's it's it's one of the things that happens so often with film is that people assume that just because it's the way that somebody who's famous works, that they have to work like that and that's how they're going to make their movies.
00;32;04;13 - 00;32;13;05
Cullen
Well, but no, if I if my you know, if anything, a lot of the times my initial cut will be the shortest possible version I can can do of it so that I can then extend things and.
00;32;13;09 - 00;32;13;20
Clark
Oh, that's.
00;32;13;20 - 00;32;35;00
Cullen
Rare to breathe. That's I mean, it's not always like that, but it's it's you know, there have been times when it has been like that where it's like, you know, I've been like, you know what? That's too quick. I need to give that a moment to especially with composers, is that I'm I very much work with the composer in the editing process so that if my composer ever can say, Hey, can you add, you know, 2 seconds on to there?
00;32;35;00 - 00;33;07;24
Cullen
Because I think that would be a really nice sting for a moment there for the music. And it'll actually work with my editor to to compose to music. Of course, that is if there is music in the moment. But. Right, but yeah, I mean I can just people, people like you said and like, like as you said earlier, how we're all kind of a mix between these things that people I think my biggest piece of advice to, you know, especially when I'm teaching classes, is don't look at what somebody famous or successful did and just try and replicate that because the likelihood is that they're doing that because it works for them and it probably
00;33;07;24 - 00;33;21;22
Cullen
won't work for you. Just come up with a way to do it for yourself that then feels comfortable and efficient for you. Yeah. As opposed to just going, well, you know, Coppola did a huge cut for his first one, so I that's how I all of my first cuts will be.
00;33;21;28 - 00;33;48;10
Clark
And also you don't have the context of anything it you know that may actually be something I'm just making stuff up here but it's like you know Coppola success may be in spite of that, right? That may be a challenge for him that he's having to work through that you actually could be copying a maladaptive or, you know, challenging aspect of his creative process that he hasn't refined himself, you know?
00;33;48;10 - 00;34;13;27
Clark
So without context, yeah, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous to copy, you know, some piece of somebody else's creative process and try to incorporate that yourself. Yeah, that. But yeah, I context is key and yeah, you've got to find your and even with all of this I mean hopefully people you know it's you watch this masterclass you know Herzog has done this and he's given so many interviews about filmmaking and and there's so much content out there.
00;34;13;27 - 00;34;33;25
Clark
But, you know, really, I mean, the idea is not to copy mindlessly any of these aspects of filmmaking or creative process. It's and that's why we kind of like to say that this is, you know, we just use this class and his films and his works as a jumping off point to kind of discuss our own creative process and to help us find our own.
00;34;34;07 - 00;34;39;26
Clark
So it's never like, Oh, Herzog said, don't do this then, okay, I'm never going to do it. Or Herzog said. And I think.
00;34;39;26 - 00;34;52;18
Cullen
That that's a huge issue with a lot of film education. These days, especially online, is that you'll get, you know, these these channels that will will go into the specificities of how Deakin's like to shot.
00;34;52;18 - 00;34;53;06
Clark
And it's yeah.
00;34;53;09 - 00;34;55;04
Cullen
Now you've got to do this exactly like that.
00;34;55;10 - 00;34;55;23
Clark
Right.
00;34;55;27 - 00;35;21;22
Cullen
Come up with your own way. And but no, I think that, you know, to get back into the lesson before I, before I kind of derailed, I okay. I do think that the coverage thing is exactly for me. I think the reason that I don't do coverage often, too, is that I is that I, I enjoy shooting things in long sort of uninterrupted takes, which can be.
00;35;21;22 - 00;35;25;05
Clark
Interesting to talk about. Yeah. Yeah. As he does Yeah. Potentially save some time.
00;35;25;25 - 00;35;40;08
Cullen
And I don't even do that really is a timesaver to me it's just and again we discussed this a little bit in the working articles episode, but it's, it's something that I find I find a I'll get better performances out of actors if I can just allow them to do their thing. Yeah. And then allow the camera to do its thing.
00;35;40;08 - 00;35;40;24
Clark
I agree.
00;35;40;24 - 00;36;01;09
Cullen
In a take. Yeah. And, but on top of that too, I find that often compositionally it makes for a more like, you know, if I'm sitting it, if I have a conversation at the table instead of doing over the shoulder, sometimes I find that these conversations will be more interesting if they're sitting almost diagonal to each other at the corner and they can really get close to each other.
00;36;01;09 - 00;36;11;19
Cullen
An that way and lean into each other. And the the conversation now becomes something that's playing on screen as opposed to just this division of the two actors on the show.
00;36;11;19 - 00;36;26;25
Clark
It's nice to play around, too. I mean, obviously there is, you know, you can get to a place where you're you're shooting a one. Ah, that's so long and complicated that it's, you know, by it's, you know, much more complicated and takes much longer to set up and shoot than it would be if you were doing traditional coverage.
00;36;26;25 - 00;36;53;12
Clark
So it, you know, everything kind of depends and has its boundaries. But also it's fun to play around with, you know, recompose in shots on the fly within you know within a single take is can be really fun and can break things up as opposed to again, just your traditional, you know, two shot over the shoulder, over the shoulder, which is, you know, such a staple and is hard to get away from that entirely.
00;36;53;12 - 00;37;11;11
Clark
But it can also be a pleasant exercise or a fun experience when you're utilizing it, of course, to tell your story. But to to compose on the fly, to move from one composition to another. I mean, I personally enjoy it, and I think.
00;37;11;20 - 00;37;17;25
Cullen
Herzog loves that feeling of like the floating camera, too, right? He uses that so often where the camera is sort of exploring the space.
00;37;17;25 - 00;37;36;11
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's absolutely and it's it's you know, of course, depending on your project but where it's appropriate. But absolutely it can it can use in kind of a more subjective or involved camera and really making the camera a character so to speak in. Yeah. In the story.
00;37;36;21 - 00;38;03;10
Cullen
And that comes into I often I find that honestly for me looking at genre is a really good way to explore things that you would do without genre kind of stripping that away. But for example, choreographing an action scene or even just a, a, an intricate kind of dialog scene through like, say, an apartment. But looking at the way that West Side, West Side Story shoots their musical sequences.
00;38;03;24 - 00;38;20;23
Cullen
Yeah. And the way that things like that work or Singin in the Rain or whichever, you know, those classic golden age Hollywood movies where the camera feels like it's a part of the dance, and then you kind of take that and go, okay, let's strip away the music and the dancing. How could I make the camera feel like it's a part of the conversation that it's almost peeking in.
00;38;21;04 - 00;38;48;11
Clark
Or is a great genre to do this with as well? Or has such a subjective camera, such an involved camera. And yeah, so that's a great point. You know, taking a look at stylistic choices that are often associated with different genres and applying them in different or unique ways, that's that definitely can be a helpful exercise. But yeah, it's, you know, here Herzog is talking about saving time and again.
00;38;48;11 - 00;39;01;15
Clark
It's that can be a time saving device or if you're, you know, shooting like the the intro scene to Goodfellas, that may not so much be a time saving device. Yes.
00;39;01;15 - 00;39;05;15
Cullen
I mean, and that's that's exactly it is is the complexity of those setups.
00;39;05;19 - 00;39;06;00
Clark
Yeah.
00;39;06;00 - 00;39;16;04
Cullen
So depends on on what how much you're going to you know, how much time you're gonna spend on it. Yeah. If you're doing a oner for the sake of doing a oner because it's a, it's the impressiveness.
00;39;16;11 - 00;39;17;06
Clark
Well that's the.
00;39;17;07 - 00;39;18;06
Cullen
One or then that's you.
00;39;18;06 - 00;39;19;20
Clark
Should stay away from that regardless.
00;39;19;23 - 00;39;35;09
Cullen
Whereas I think that, and Spielberg actually is really interesting Waters because Spielberg, unlike that opening of of Goodfellas, the Copacabana, and unlike a lot of other directors who use one or Spielberg's one, those are actually very interesting because he almost hides them.
00;39;35;09 - 00;39;39;16
Clark
Very much of all. There's a great oh, there's a great YouTube video.
00;39;39;23 - 00;39;41;07
Cullen
Yes. It's every time a painting.
00;39;41;13 - 00;39;48;29
Clark
There you go. Every frame of which just let's categorically just say recommend that if you haven't seen every frame of painting.
00;39;49;01 - 00;39;49;27
Cullen
Fantastic chance.
00;39;50;06 - 00;39;59;06
Clark
YouTube's. Yeah, it's a YouTube channel, a series of videos, extremely well done I think sadly, the author of those videos has stopped making.
00;39;59;09 - 00;40;25;28
Cullen
Yeah he he said that he basically he always had an idea that it was going to run its course. It's like the amount of episodes he did. So luckily wasn't like a sad end. It was. It was very much the plan was. Yeah, but, but no, it's a great, great example of where I think, again, Spielberg is one of those people that again uses it both for efficiency of time on set, but efficiency of storytelling that it's like rather than again coming up with intricate sequence with the thousand moving pieces, the opening of Touch of Evil or something.
00;40;25;28 - 00;40;41;27
Cullen
Spielberg's using Wagner's because it's, you know, why cut when I could just have this person walk over there and have the camera follow them? Yeah. And, you know, and Kurosawa is a great example of that, too, where it's like you almost have with the one is a great way to hide them is, you know, have every shot, have a beginning, a middle and an end.
00;40;41;28 - 00;40;46;03
Cullen
So you start on a close up and then instead of cutting to a medium, just pull back the camera.
00;40;46;16 - 00;40;46;19
Clark
Yeah.
00;40;46;22 - 00;41;03;12
Cullen
And then you're in a medium. And then I think that, that and that's another thing again, that is super related to those those fifties musicals that you look at, musicals from the Golden age of Hollywood, fifties and sixties, and you look at once compared to today where it's almost like a cut on every beat and there's, there's this.
00;41;03;12 - 00;41;03;23
Clark
Super.
00;41;03;28 - 00;41;23;28
Cullen
Constant cuts and I think that it's incredible that you look back then and you feel so much more involved in immersed in the in the story, even though the editing is so much more tame and calm and is really is really, if anything, you know, restricted restraint and which I think it works for those movies where.
00;41;23;29 - 00;41;49;17
Clark
It doesn't have to be flamboyant. Yeah, exactly. You don't have to be flamboyant. I think that's a great point. And you've you've mentioned some great examples. And I would recommend to other people out there, other directors, to take a look at those examples. And those are definitely, I think, setups that could save quite a bit of time. You're shooting a lot less coverage and I think that they can contribute significantly to better storytelling.
00;41;49;17 - 00;42;11;22
Cullen
I will say though, if you're young or if you're starting out, go crazy. It sounds kind of funny, but but I when I was, you know, in early high school, I used to do crazy camera movements as much as I could do tons of editing. I remember my when I was going when I was graduating high school and I was applying to film schools and stuff just for, you know, I wasn't sure if I wanted to go yet.
00;42;11;22 - 00;42;29;28
Cullen
And that's one of the options. Like I did this this crazy samurai sword fight where there was like this flashback sequence and there was these crazy lights and fog and, you know, the editing was insane and there was the movement. There's potions that were so quick and all this stuff, right? Go crazy. Like, I feel free to do that.
00;42;29;28 - 00;42;30;28
Clark
And yeah.
00;42;31;01 - 00;42;40;16
Cullen
Because now I feel that like I've looked at that and gone, Oh, I'll pull back these things. Like I'll kind of harness that energy but not make it so outwardly flamboyant. Like you said, you've got it.
00;42;40;16 - 00;42;53;18
Clark
You've got to you've got to push far to kind of realize, yeah, absolutely. There's no harm in in really getting wild and crazy and exploring the boundaries of techniques. Absolutely. I think that's I.
00;42;53;18 - 00;43;05;08
Cullen
Mean, even you look at the starting careers of a lot of famous directors, you look at PTA, as we mentioned earlier. Yes. Great example is like looking at eight and Boogie Nights.
00;43;05;08 - 00;43;07;11
Clark
There was like Boogie Nights and Magnolia.
00;43;07;12 - 00;43;12;07
Cullen
You got those oners and you've got that. That's long Steadicam shots. Very. Jonathan Demme kind of.
00;43;12;07 - 00;43;13;04
Clark
Sort of movement.
00;43;13;24 - 00;43;18;05
Cullen
Movement. But now you look at his shots and they're they're composed and they're.
00;43;18;06 - 00;43;21;18
Clark
Solid, right? Solid. They're almost stoic sometimes.
00;43;21;18 - 00;43;39;19
Cullen
And I think I think one of the reasons that I would say go back and watch old Hollywood and watch movies from the forties and fifties, because the cameras were so big and heavy that they couldn't they didn't have the option to to go crazy with them. So everything had to be super accurate. And there was a level of preciseness.
00;43;39;25 - 00;44;06;29
Cullen
Yeah, that even the focus puller didn't have a monitor. They had to know the distance. There was this level of being completely precise. And even when there was movement in the camera that you had to be so, so, so accurate with it. And I think that is such a great way to learn how to even if you're shooting on a DSLR and you've got a big monitor in front of you and you don't need to worry about, you know, the weight of the camera or that focus or whatever, absolutely still try and emulate those styles.
00;44;06;29 - 00;44;28;04
Cullen
And if not for just a training exercise, because you'll find that being reserved often and being kind of restrained in those ways will keep that energy up. But it will also it'll just make things less hectic. It will make things look more precise and more, you know, more pointed, if anything. Right. A word for it, like you're pointing to a style in a direction.
00;44;28;16 - 00;44;52;19
Clark
Well, I think that's great. That's great advice. I would think, you know, anytime that you can, you know, practice your skills or kind of, you know, the more tools or, you know, the more technique that you have available to yourself, The it's like having paints in your and your palette right now. The more and more colors you have to paint with, the more options you bring, the better for sure.
00;44;52;28 - 00;45;13;21
Clark
So those are really great suggestions. And you know, especially in today's day and age, we live in the world of such small cameras, so much movement, so much shaky cam. It's kind of come back on a little bit. But, you know, we've got mockumentary style or documentary style film. You know, everything is shot with so much movement now.
00;45;14;00 - 00;45;20;12
Clark
It is I think it's a great idea to go back to those older eras when cameras weighed a couple hundred pounds. You know, and I think.
00;45;21;05 - 00;45;49;19
Cullen
Even a great example of that, too, of the modern style you're talking about, which was trying to emulate old style, was la la land. I didn't I didn't love la la land. And the reason for that was I found if you're trying to emulate the style of the fifties Golden Age musical with those big, heavy, bulky cameras and the sweeping dolly moves and things like that, shooting your entire movie on Steadicam to save time is not the way to do that.
00;45;49;19 - 00;45;59;17
Cullen
And so that movie really, I think, was a perfect example to me at least, and a lot of people like that movie. So I don't want to, you know, shoot on people's opinions. But that movie, to me at least, was a really great example of.
00;46;00;04 - 00;46;01;12
Clark
How how.
00;46;01;12 - 00;46;13;05
Cullen
To, you know, what not to do when you're trying to use a kind of reserved when you're emulating a very reserved style of filmmaking. Okay. It just sort of took me out of that.
00;46;13;05 - 00;46;30;14
Clark
I personally liked the film. Interesting. I didn't like it. All right. Don't get digress here too far. I didn't I didn't actually get into it the first like first time I tried to watch it, I only watched 15 minutes of it. I turned it off and then I rewatched it at a later date. And I actually enjoyed it quite a bit.
00;46;30;23 - 00;46;54;11
Clark
But but that might be to a great extent because its contents spoke very specifically to me. Yeah. And had a lot of elements of my personal story that I really, really, really resonated with. So the movie really spoke to me. I'd have to go back and look. I didn't notice, you know, that I didn't notice what you have just called out.
00;46;54;20 - 00;47;01;08
Clark
But maybe I'll check that film out again and see what I think. And we provide a counter. Or maybe agree.
00;47;01;15 - 00;47;22;20
Cullen
I mean, that's the thing. But again, it's it's to me, I just I look and maybe that wasn't I you know, I haven't spoken to Damien Chazelle, so maybe his point wasn't too perfectly anyway. But I think it is a good example in that of of, you know, you compare the American scene from West Side Story versus the opening to La la land, and I say, okay, where where does America do things really well?
00;47;22;20 - 00;47;48;07
Cullen
Where does West Side Story do things really well and feel really immersive versus what's taking you out of a scene like the opening in Loveland? And again, you know, it's a popular movie that a lot of people love, so I'm likely in the minority on that one. But I do think I analyzing it in that way and kind of looking at the differences between a movie that's emulating those things versus the original sources is really an interesting kind of, you know, educational experience.
00;47;48;18 - 00;48;13;08
Clark
Well, right. Well, it's interesting. I'll go back and take a look at that. But for now, we'll pull ourselves back a little bit to to Herzog's lesson. But I love these digressions, though. This is this is you know, this is like one of the wonderful things about filmmaking. I mean, everything is connected to everything. And I mean, obviously, if you love film, you could speak to you could go off on all of these tangents for weeks and months.
00;48;13;10 - 00;48;37;06
Clark
Yes. Lifetimes, frankly, lifetimes so far. For me, it's been, you know, for about 30 years that I've gone off on this tangent to film. So with no signs of slowing down yet. So it's so that's one of the wonderful it's such a rich and complex medium that, you know, it's it's a blast. So. Well, let's move into documentary filmmaking.
00;48;37;06 - 00;49;02;10
Clark
So in the second half year of this lesson, Herzog speaks specifically to shooting docs. And and right off the bat, he talks about and this makes sense. This is in line with basically everything else that he said up to this point about filmmaking in general is to keep things small. You set up and shoot quickly, you know, and that he's always about maintaining urgency, right?
00;49;02;11 - 00;49;23;25
Clark
He's maintaining flexibility, maintaining urgency. You don't want to lose momentum. You want to keep an intensity. And I think he's spoken to all those things quite a few times. I totally agree. But he also there's something else that's important to think of here, and I've run into this numerous times when I'm shooting documentary type footage, when I'm shooting interviews, and that's that.
00;49;23;25 - 00;49;52;27
Clark
You know, you've got to remember when you're shooting a documentary, everybody that's going to be in front of your camera is not going to be a professional filmmaker. They're not an actor. They aren't trained. And most people feel uncomfortable in front of a camera, and they definitely are going to feel uncomfortable and can be intimidated. If you've got a huge crew with a ton of lights, you know, booms, and then you've got you know, the more people you've got, the bigger the footprint you've got, the more likely you are to intimidate.
00;49;54;04 - 00;50;09;05
Clark
And that's actually an important you know, that's an important thing to remember. And also to, you know, most or many situations, at least when it comes to documentary filmmaking, you're not going to be allowed to have a lot of it just logistically, you're not going to be led into most places if you have a huge crew.
00;50;09;08 - 00;50;10;24
Cullen
Or locations or a huge aspect of.
00;50;10;24 - 00;50;29;09
Clark
That. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, just learning to shoot quickly with a small crew is going to be of such a huge benefit in a documentary film. You know, I would say even more so than a narrative, just because it's likely that the logistics of it will allow you to shoot with a large crew.
00;50;29;20 - 00;50;30;10
Cullen
Mm hmm. Yeah.
00;50;30;10 - 00;50;59;21
Clark
So, no, you know, he also and you and I have talked, I think this, you know, in line with shooting coverage versus really knowing exactly what to shoot. It's, you know, he talks about not leaving camera decisions to post, right? Yes. And and I know you've got some some thoughts on this, but Herzog is like, look, you know, just because you're shooting in 4K six, K eight, K 12, whatever it might be, don't leave your framing to post.
00;50;59;29 - 00;51;06;18
Clark
Yeah, don't just shoot with the idea that like, I can, you know, I can just compose this way I want and post I can crop in.
00;51;07;23 - 00;51;09;29
Cullen
It should be a last resort at most.
00;51;09;29 - 00;51;12;15
Clark
At most, yeah. Tell me about your experience with that.
00;51;12;15 - 00;51;29;10
Cullen
Yeah, I mean, I've done it. I'll say like guilty as charged in that I shot in 4K and, and it's not even a resolution thing for me because I think that you could, you could realistically get a short shot that is 700 or 720p on a movie theater screen. And I think that most most general audiences would hardly notice.
00;51;30;04 - 00;51;57;14
Cullen
But it's so it's not even like the lowering the resolution. It's nothing like that. I just think that, again, going back to the accuracy of what you're shooting. Yeah. That you should you should just focused intent. You're going to even just the way that lenses work that like there's there's aspects to barrel distortion on lenses that if you start rearranging a shot that there's going to be wonky side effects you just may not that may slip past you that are going to show up and it just it just it's the accuracy.
00;51;57;14 - 00;52;11;29
Cullen
And I think that anybody who's going in and shooting, you know, purposefully wide and then saying, but we'll just crop it in a little bit is is doing themselves a disservice in doing the visuals of their movie. A disservice. I mean, again, I've I've done that. I've I've in an.
00;52;11;29 - 00;52;12;19
Clark
Emergency.
00;52;13;00 - 00;52;31;29
Cullen
In emergencies. Yeah. In in a situation where I go either there's something on the edge of the frame that looks too awkward to be there or it's distracting that I just didn't notice was in there. Or, you know, sometimes it's something like the the B cam failed in an interview. And so I just need to get a picture up shot and.
00;52;32;00 - 00;52;34;04
Clark
You get right to change perspective again.
00;52;34;04 - 00;52;53;16
Cullen
It should be a it should be your last resort. It should be something that because it's not I won't say that it is like the worst thing in the world, but it is certainly something that if you're going in at all again, it all comes down to on set. Like if it's something that you're going into thinking of on set that, Oh, we're going to reach crop this, then you're going to be less specific and less accurate.
00;52;53;16 - 00;52;53;26
Clark
I agree.
00;52;53;27 - 00;53;01;19
Cullen
Camera. Whereas if you do it in post just as a save your saving measure, then then that's to me, that's a different thing. Yeah, exactly right.
00;53;01;19 - 00;53;19;02
Clark
And I agree. I think it just comes back again to it's about decision procrastination. I mean, why why are you pushing that decision back? You know, I think it's the same argument people use to shoot a lot of coverage that they use to do this, which is, well, hey, look, if we were on a high risk camera here, let's shoot real wide.
00;53;19;02 - 00;53;40;11
Clark
And then we have, you know, all the flexibility in the world to reframe this in post. It just never works out that way, though. You end up getting to post. I mean, imagine, you know, think about it. You get into post with 100 hours of footage, you know, 300, 300 hours of footage. And on top of that, it's all basically unframed, right?
00;53;41;03 - 00;53;44;01
Clark
I mean, come on, seriously, It's like you're going to think you're.
00;53;44;01 - 00;53;51;17
Cullen
Putting I mean, again, it's like you've put something in a paper shredder and now you're taping it together afterwards to make the Mona Lisa like you're not going to get it.
00;53;51;21 - 00;54;16;13
Clark
I think I think just psychologically, when you move with purpose, when you have a focused intent, when you're present there on the day you should be making those decisions on the day. Right. It's not like I mean, a painter doesn't paint a painting on like an extra large canvas and then, you know, take it, you know, and then give it to somebody and be like, well, you know, you can kind of like crop this however you want.
00;54;16;13 - 00;54;42;07
Clark
I just made it like really huge. It's extra big. And then, you know, you can just cut the canvas so that it's it's like, come on that you know, you should be working with, with, you know, and that's where I guess, you know, vision, right? It's like you should have the vision, you should be executing that vision. And I just I know a lot of people are going to you know, some people are going to say, but, you know, it just I leave myself so many options in editing if I do this.
00;54;42;19 - 00;54;53;00
Clark
And I just, you know, I hope I can articulate this well enough. I just don't think that's the case. I think what you end up with is just a bunch of generic garbage. Yes. Yes. Which is actually.
00;54;53;00 - 00;55;00;13
Cullen
Yeah, it's generic. That's a perfect way to put it, is that you're just you're not going to if you're not making specific decisions, then it's not going out. You're not going to have anything special.
00;55;00;13 - 00;55;12;03
Clark
Yeah. And so so speaking of garbage, I mean, and, you know, this is huge, Herzog said, Look, collect the remarkable. You're not garbage, right? We're not garbage collector. We're filmmakers.
00;55;12;03 - 00;55;16;26
Cullen
And if you shoot, it's he says to you, if you shoot 300 hours, you don't know what you're doing. And that's I love it.
00;55;16;26 - 00;55;28;11
Clark
But I think so if you shoot 300 hours, you don't know what you're doing. And I I've been there not 300 hours, but I have I have been in my own way at that place. And I can tell you from experience, it's totally true.
00;55;28;11 - 00;55;32;01
Cullen
And then you sit back and you go, Oh, God, yeah, I'm going to get through this, you know?
00;55;32;05 - 00;55;48;09
Clark
And I don't know if he says it's another lesson. I think he might, or maybe it's in some other interviews. But look, it's like we're not flies on the wall. You know, we're not security cameras, right? I mean, security camera is just records all day, every day waiting for something interesting.
00;55;48;10 - 00;55;51;18
Cullen
I'm sure you could make a movie out of that, but God would be pretty boring. Do that.
00;55;52;00 - 00;55;52;28
Clark
Do that as a writer.
00;55;52;28 - 00;55;55;29
Cullen
I shouldn't put that out on the Internet because it's going to get in someone's head. They're going to do it.
00;55;56;05 - 00;56;21;20
Clark
Yeah. Don't do that. Don't do that. As a filmmaker. Yeah, you know, move with purpose, move with focus and vision. And, you know, the idea is that what I love about Herzog, what really stands out to me is his like his obsession with new images as he defines them. Like, you know, to to finding new imagery to to bring to people, to bring to an audience to help.
00;56;21;24 - 00;56;39;12
Clark
You know, storytelling is about helping us understand who we are and why we're here and what is this thing that we're doing, which is life. What is this experience that is existence? It's it's helping us find a way to understand that all storytelling.
00;56;39;12 - 00;56;55;01
Cullen
Totally. Yeah. And just to just even, just again, like, just to kind of reiterate that, that imagine yourself as an audience member and think of how exciting it is to see something new on the screen. And you're right, when you when you watch a movie and it's like, I've never seen this before, that's the most amazing feeling in the world.
00;56;55;02 - 00;57;08;14
Clark
And that will very, very rarely happen on accident if you just, like, keep your camera rolling long enough. Yeah, Yeah. And if it does happen, if you do happen to get that, you're likely to be drowning in footage and you won't be able to find it.
00;57;08;14 - 00;57;10;15
Cullen
Anyway, probably won't be able to replicate it.
00;57;10;18 - 00;57;35;03
Clark
You've got to make it. You've got to execute vision and make it happen. So. Right. Yes. We are not garbage collectors. We are filmmakers. And what a fantastic final quote to end this episode on. Wow. Then, as always, culminate. It was a good one. This was a good one. I had a blast. So. Well, thanks, everybody for listening.
00;57;35;03 - 00;57;52;06
Clark
I hope that it was as enjoyable for you as it was for us. Next episode we will be jumping into lesson 11, which is going to be a good one. It's not the gear, it's you. This will be a good one. And I know, I know you're you're a gearhead.
00;57;52;17 - 00;57;53;02
Cullen
There we go.
00;57;53;02 - 00;57;54;15
Clark
And so this is going to be a good one.
00;57;54;15 - 00;57;55;15
Cullen
We'll have a good time. Yeah.
00;57;56;08 - 00;57;59;23
Clark
All right. Well, everybody, thanks so much for joining us. We'll catch you next time.
00;57;59;29 - 00;58;08;08
Cullen
So, yeah.