Cullen
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I am Cullen McFater and of course, as always, I'm joined by Clark Coffey. How's it going?
00:00:20:16 - 00:00:34:19
Clark
It's going well, man, for the most part. I just got an emergency alert on my phone. I'm out here in California now. Rose, stay inside. Stay away from people where you're married. Oh, I.
00:00:34:19 - 00:00:35:07
Cullen
See. Yeah.
00:00:35:07 - 00:00:48:14
Clark
So. Yeah, outside of, you know, all of the the the the sadness and of COVID. Other than that, yes, I'm doing fine, man. Good to hear you're up in Canada.
00:00:49:01 - 00:00:54:03
Cullen
Good, good. Getting chillier now. So, you know, we're getting into December, so the weather is getting cold.
00:00:54:03 - 00:00:58:11
Clark
But I know, I know it's like 73 here right now. It's so chilly. Yeah.
00:00:58:16 - 00:01:12:15
Cullen
Yeah, I wish. I know. But today we're doing lesson 18 and 19. We're kind of doing a double whammy because they are invaded by images, parts one and two. So they're very similar. Yep. And we figured, you know, why not just kind.
00:01:12:15 - 00:01:15:15
Clark
Of It made sense. It made sense. Yeah, absolutely.
00:01:15:15 - 00:01:31:01
Cullen
But a very, very I think content rich lesson. I think very Oh, there's no I would say, you know, interesting to go from something as you know, not necessarily objective, but something very technical like music and something very right.
00:01:31:04 - 00:01:32:05
Clark
Seemingly so, at.
00:01:32:05 - 00:01:50:15
Cullen
Least seemingly so. Yeah. And suddenly now we are into a state of of inspiration. And although there are definitely similarities between those two, because of course, the episode was much about finding inspiration for music. And this is about finding inspiration from just raw images and not necessarily images taken with cameras. But.
00:01:51:00 - 00:02:09:20
Clark
But how do you write? It's it's it's how do we basically the crux of it is how do we find the stories that we want to tell as filmmakers, Right? Yeah. I mean, that's basically what it boils down to. And, you know, if boy, if there were ever an important question as an artist, as a filmmaker, I mean, this has got to be it, right?
00:02:10:05 - 00:02:29:03
Clark
And I think it's one that, you know, I see so many pe I think, you know, everyone to some degree or another probably has challenges and struggles with this, right? It's whether you call it writer's block or, you know, whatever it might be. I mean, I think people in just about any medium have, you know, sometimes struggle with finding inspiration.
00:02:29:10 - 00:02:32:13
Clark
What story do we want to tell? I mean, I certainly know I do. I don't know about you.
00:02:32:13 - 00:02:41:14
Cullen
COEN But no, absolutely. I mean, writing is definitely the I think we've mentioned this earlier, but writing for me is the the most difficult, most it's challenging.
00:02:41:14 - 00:03:11:13
Clark
And and it's you know, especially it's like I think and you and I have talked about this, you know, or people who go to film school and absolutely, positively not, you know, knocking film school at all. We both agree that it has some pros and some cons and might have some challenges with it. But I mean, especially as we get into a world where today more than I think, you know, at any other point in time as a filmmaker or aspiring filmmaker, you're exposed to, you know, just so many.
00:03:11:13 - 00:03:42:05
Clark
Right. How many books have been written about you know, how to tell a story and get some things, get very analytical and technical and conceptual, and it can almost get overwhelming. And one of the things that I find really refreshing about Herzog's two lessons here is his really intuitive approach. And this is something we see, you know, I mean, throughout all of these lessons, we see this recurring theme that he's really I feel my interpretation is that he's very much an intuitive filmmaker, an intuitive artist.
00:03:42:16 - 00:04:01:14
Clark
And it's refreshing because I think sometimes we can lose that. You know, it's at least I know I've got to kind of remind myself like, Hey, get out of your head. You know, it's you're you're studying stories, structure and things are getting really analytical and you're breaking things down and your index card and everything and you're like, you know, where's my inciting incident?
00:04:01:14 - 00:04:01:18
Clark
Oh.
00:04:02:12 - 00:04:23:11
Cullen
Yeah. And, well, that's which and that's, you know, it's, it's you have to be impulsive, weirdly in a very good you had to be able to and I think that that's again you know I mention this all the time, but one of the things that I do, one of the first exercises we do in the class that I teach is we I give all the kids cameras and then we just go for a walk.
00:04:24:12 - 00:04:39:20
Cullen
And I just, you know, we just walk around the city for, you know, maybe an hour. And I sort of just say, okay, don't tell me what you're doing. Don't you know, worry about getting anything. Just just go out and find images that tell stories. And it can be you can take a photograph of it if you want.
00:04:39:20 - 00:05:03:05
Cullen
You can take a video. It doesn't matter to me. And we'll come back in and we'll we'll examine them after now. But again, I think that just an exercise like that is so pertinent, but also very, very it's good to kind of train your instincts and that you don't have to. I think one of the worst parts and probably the part that bothers me the most about the filmmaking process is how slow it can be.
00:05:03:21 - 00:05:16:20
Cullen
And I really, you know, have zero desire to to run a set in the way that a lot of, you know, larger sets are run, which is just that like every shot takes an hour of setup or at least that you've got to spend you.
00:05:16:20 - 00:05:18:06
Clark
Know that might be fast.
00:05:18:06 - 00:05:23:06
Cullen
Yeah, exactly. That that could be a quick setup. But I think that Herzog really has not even production.
00:05:23:06 - 00:05:27:23
Clark
Look at the like the lead time 4.0 yeah look at I mean reproduction time on this.
00:05:27:23 - 00:05:33:08
Cullen
Even goes back to to Herzog's quote about you know, that 90 minutes after we get to set we should be.
00:05:33:13 - 00:05:34:14
Clark
Better be shooting, which.
00:05:34:14 - 00:05:57:14
Cullen
I think is great. But I mean that's that can even be beat. I mean, that's why one of my favorite ways to make a movie is just to, again, go out, you know, not without a script necessarily, but just to go out and small crew, you know, one camera and an actor and just shoot and just get get footage and, you know, with intention, of course, not just, you know, we're not, as Herzog says, we're not garbage collectors.
00:05:57:20 - 00:06:07:04
Cullen
But but to go out and, you know, with intention shoot, but also just to strip away the, you know, abundance of technicalities that sometimes come with that.
00:06:07:14 - 00:06:29:11
Clark
Well, and I think that's, you know, and that's something that we're going to kind of I think that that theme is going to reoccur here as we go over these next couple of lessons. Yeah, but you know it I love the way that that Herzog describes, the way, you know, he feels inspiration or ideas come to him. He has got this idea that, you know, they're burglars, right?
00:06:29:11 - 00:06:45:23
Clark
Home invaders coming into his home at night. And it's you know, it's instead of him, you know, going out and searching for these ideas, he actually describes it as like these ideas are breaking into his home, you know, grabbing him awake and like, threatening him. And it's like, you better do something about this. You know, he can't avoid it.
00:06:47:06 - 00:07:07:22
Clark
And I love this idea. And I you know, and I think about this often and you know, how I kind of apply this to my life. It's something I'm really working on as an artist myself is that I think and this maybe happens to you sometimes. Cullen You can chime in. Maybe this happens to other people out there who are listening, you know, just see if this resonates with you.
00:07:07:22 - 00:07:33:20
Clark
But one of the things that I'm working on is becoming more aware of when these things happen. I think sometimes in our day to day life where we're so overwhelmed with so much content that we're consuming. And I'll even say we're making a podcast here. But yes, podcasts are part of the static. There's million TV shows, there's a million films, video games, your life, your work, your kids, your family, your husband.
00:07:33:20 - 00:07:42:16
Clark
You're right. I mean, life can be overwhelming. And I think sometimes these burglars come to us, but we sleep through the invasion.
00:07:43:12 - 00:07:44:10
Cullen
We totally.
00:07:44:10 - 00:08:09:19
Clark
Totally. You know, I think that sometimes we don't realize and we're going to get into some of these examples that Herzog gives. But I think a lot of times ideas are trying to grab you by your your lapels and shake you awake, but you don't recognize that this could be an idea. That could be, you know, maybe it's the seed of of a story or maybe it's, you know, or maybe it's a tangent that that could be a part of another story.
00:08:09:19 - 00:08:38:03
Clark
But and so I see myself I see this happening to myself. A lot of times I'll compartmentalize. It's like, well, you know, I'm really interested in conspiracy theory and human psychology, but that's not really a film or a story. And I'm like, What's wrong with you? Of course, that could be a million stories, you know? So I don't know if you have some experience like this, but I'm definitely working on trying to make myself more present and and available and awake to these invaders when they come into my in my bedroom in the middle of the night.
00:08:38:13 - 00:09:07:02
Cullen
Well, I think I think I think you hit the nail on the head, which is that a huge aspect of people's hesitance to kind of jump into things is the oversaturation of the market now. And because of that, people are concerned that they're you know, if they have an idea or an idea comes to them or whatever, that it's not good enough, that it's not you know, they need that they're they're searching for this perfect thing because there's so much material out there that they're like, well, that's either that's been done or that's over.
00:09:07:02 - 00:09:30:03
Cullen
Well, that's good as that thing or, you know, but in the like, one of my favorite and I think one of the creative, most creative times, at least recently I've had, was when I just had graduated high school. And I would go out and I would just shoot, you know, I would go to there's a big forest, a lot of woods and marshes near my house.
00:09:30:03 - 00:09:54:07
Cullen
And I would just go down there at sunrise and I would just capture as much as I could, just like the light coming through the trees and just deer and stuff like that running through. And and then I would come home and I would edit them into, you know, I wouldn't just out of them into nature montages. I would always try and do something to tell a story with them, even if it was just about, you know, focusing on the sound and thinking, you know, how can I play with the sound and sort of make it almost arthouse?
00:09:54:07 - 00:09:59:01
Cullen
There or something like that. But I think, again, people are super, super hesitant to.
00:09:59:11 - 00:09:59:22
Clark
That's a good.
00:09:59:22 - 00:10:23:12
Cullen
Point. Jump into ideas because I think, again, it's like you're seeing so much. You go on YouTube and there's a thousand not only short films, but there's vlogs, there's, you know, just like you said, all these things where it's it's over. It can be difficult to take an idea and go, Well, that's that's good enough to do when in reality, I mean, most of the time the, the ideas that you see out there are ten times as simple as the one you probably have.
00:10:23:17 - 00:10:42:20
Clark
No, that's a that's a really great point. COEN And I think, you know, it's interesting that, you know, I think it speaks volumes that Herzog doesn't even mention this. It never even crosses his, you know, I mean, he literally gives zero attention or thought in these lessons to well, I you know, how do you know if your idea is good enough or.
00:10:42:20 - 00:10:46:03
Cullen
Yeah, exactly. It is you know, it doesn't matter even what what.
00:10:46:03 - 00:11:10:15
Clark
If this idea has maybe been done in some way before? Should you not do it? I mean, not there's none of that, you know, And I think, you know, look, it's like art is a process. I mean, it's cheesy kind of cliche, but we're going to, you know, the idea of traveling by foot and allowing, you know, taking time with the journey and being present in your journey so that you can, you know, really to find these inspirations, these story ideas.
00:11:10:15 - 00:11:40:04
Clark
I think both literally traveling by foot is important and I think figuratively focusing on journey and not destination is so key to really maximizing your potential as a story maker and a film teller, a storyteller and a filmmaker. But, you know, it's I think we get so overwhelmed with we project ourselves into the future. You know, it's like you'll have an idea and before you've even done anything with it, you've you've shot out two years into the future and you're like, imagining this finished product, this finished film.
00:11:40:04 - 00:11:45:02
Clark
And it's like, Oh, people aren't going to be interested or nobody's going to watch it, or, you know, is it going to be good enough?
00:11:45:10 - 00:11:46:09
Cullen
Oh, exactly, exactly.
00:11:46:09 - 00:12:08:03
Clark
Just so funny as human animals, how we do that, you know, And you, you know, ended up like you're knocking your idea out of, you know, you're just not you're beating it away before it's even had a chance to grow. And, you know, maybe we could talk about this a little bit. But Herzog doesn't really go into some of these like logistics of what do you do with his ideas in the moment?
00:12:08:09 - 00:12:36:07
Clark
He does give examples about how he finds pieces of ideas over time, and then he puts these ideas together, for example, Fitzcarraldo, how he, you know, was traveling in Britain and he had this saw these huge stone pillars and he kind of had this obsession with figuring out how a pre technological humankind could have moved these. And then that came together with another piece of story with the, you know, Fitzcarraldo moving a ship over a mountain.
00:12:36:14 - 00:12:49:17
Clark
And he put these things together. And that kind of became the heart of that film. But, I mean, what are some of the things come on. Do you have any say any things that work for you as far as capturing ideas?
00:12:49:21 - 00:13:02:21
Cullen
It's always different. I don't think there's ever really been a space. I mean, we start with this last episode, but music is definitely one of the biggest ones that I'll I'll sit down and I'll listen to things like on long drives or whatever.
00:13:02:21 - 00:13:08:03
Clark
Just listen. Is it like a meditation for is that you use music as an opportunity to kind of meditate on story?
00:13:08:03 - 00:13:38:08
Cullen
I do know it's usually a generation. Okay, So, you know, an example, recently I was driving to Ottawa, which is about a four hour drive, and on the way there I just listened to Stravinsky's The Firebird and just the cues of music there made me come up with this whole plot about, you know, this very sort of almost north by northwest, you know, espionage, but someone falling into the and it was, you know, whether or not I ever actually turned that into something, I have no idea.
00:13:38:08 - 00:13:43:11
Cullen
But it's just one of those things that, you know, I was sitting there listening to music that was what was going on in my mind. I mean, but I can also.
00:13:43:18 - 00:13:45:16
Clark
How did did you capture those ideas?
00:13:45:23 - 00:14:13:09
Cullen
I wrote them down after I thought they were neat enough to it, to, you know, jot down. But but again, it's one of those things where it's like it's another thing just kind of in the bank. And yeah, if I ever if I ever decide, hey, that seems like a neat idea to follow up on. Yeah, but I mean another I, when I was applying to NYU a few years ago, the one of the things that I did was you had to write a personal essay on something when it was very general.
00:14:13:19 - 00:14:18:10
Cullen
And so I wrote this essay on because I went into my, you know, completely accidentally I was.
00:14:18:10 - 00:14:22:22
Clark
These read it for us. Would you read it? Yes. A very interesting next episode. Right? Next episode, Yeah.
00:14:22:23 - 00:14:41:11
Cullen
That would be a dedication. But but I found this box of old, like birthday cards and stuff like that from when I was really young. And I just thought it was really interesting that, you know, it almost seems like people put more care into cards when you're not even conscious enough to read them versus now it's just kind of, you know, they'll send you a text.
00:14:41:11 - 00:14:54:17
Cullen
And I thought that was kind of a funny, funny thing, especially seeing cards from people who had passed away or people who, you know now or, you know, had dementia or things like that. And it's kind of it's a weird almost time capsule. So I turned that into that essay or something.
00:14:54:17 - 00:14:55:16
Clark
Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
00:14:55:16 - 00:15:13:19
Cullen
I wrote that into an essay and kind of forgot about it. And then when I found all of those old eight millimeter movies, I realized that the essay kind of took a really good template for the like, for telling a story about the eight millimeter movies. And that wound up becoming the movie that I the documentary that I just finished.
00:15:14:18 - 00:15:28:17
Cullen
And again, but it was another thing where I was kind of there were points that I was looking at that essay kind of going as it too cliche is it to, you know, is it too boring? Is it just do what anyone really care? And then, you know, it's but it's just that you just kind of got a mole with them.
00:15:28:17 - 00:15:44:17
Cullen
You got out, you got to work with them and you wind up It's actually funny, it's specifically within shooting that movie, too. It became very much what exactly it Herzog is talking about, which is just finding images. And one of those things was that I went to this old abandoned paper mill, which is out in the country. It's like on a river.
00:15:44:17 - 00:16:02:14
Cullen
It's this old place, very interesting place. It's a massive, massive compound. Kind of reminds me of Chernobyl. But, you know, I was filming all these things and I realized that two of the images, one of the images that I'd taken at home had perfectly matched up with the image that I had taken at this mill, this completely accidentally.
00:16:02:14 - 00:16:23:03
Cullen
And it's one of my favorite moments in the movie where you get this, you know, this this panning of this like new, you know, finished roof, the ceiling and a house. And then it cuts to the broken in old ceiling of this abandoned plant. But it wasn't intentional. It was just one of those things where I was sitting there going, oh, this is you know, I'm just going to capture this footage.
00:16:23:03 - 00:16:32:10
Cullen
And then I found it afterwards. It was kind of exactly, Herzog says again in the last episode about editing, where it's like, you know, pretend that you are just finding footage for the first time and it can be.
00:16:32:15 - 00:16:33:22
Clark
Let the footage speak to you.
00:16:34:06 - 00:16:43:16
Cullen
Unsurprisingly, many of these lessons do have a through line. So I think that's, you know, it's no surprise that that you can kind of say, you know, much like the last step for sure.
00:16:43:16 - 00:17:03:17
Clark
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, obviously they're interconnected. They kind of build off each other. And many of them I mean, they're all related. There's no question. I mean, to make them separate lessons is even, you know, a little bit of a Right. It's kind of well, you have to break them into chunks, chunks for, you know, somehow. So, okay, this is kind of our best attempt to do that.
00:17:03:17 - 00:17:30:08
Clark
But, yeah, I mean, clearly, these things all follow a very, you know, a very similar narrative thread and all part of that kind of fabric. But, you know, this is something that I'm working on. I mean, is, you know, like we've talked about, you know, kind of pushing your critic, your inner critic away and not dismissing ideas because you're afraid that they may have been done before or something where maybe they're not good enough or interesting enough.
00:17:30:08 - 00:18:01:09
Clark
I think that's a big piece of this recognizing ideas, even where, you know, are kind of the things that you're drawn to, things that you find yourself energized about, really being aware of that be aware of what what topics, what things in the world. You know, I kind of start a really start to think about where am I curious for the things that I'm curious about, the things that I could read about or watch films about, or whatever, the things that I'm curious about endlessly.
00:18:02:00 - 00:18:07:22
Clark
That's got to be where I want to go. That's got to be where I'm supposed to go, for what kind of stories to tell.
00:18:08:03 - 00:18:09:12
Cullen
And again, sorry, go.
00:18:09:12 - 00:18:32:14
Clark
Ahead. No, no, I was just going to say it's, you know, so it's a combination. I think, of, you know, by by inner critic being present enough to kind of recognize where you're really curious about things and to not ignore that or to not say, you know, well, you know, yes, I'm really curious and interested in this one thing, but surely that's like a film couldn't be about that.
00:18:32:14 - 00:18:52:22
Clark
Or it couldn't be, you know, a thing like, you know, pushing all that aside. And then I think for me, really, you know, you know, saying, okay, my ideas have enough value that they're worth taking the time to stop and write them down and capture them. And I'm building you know, I'm working on building a habit for that.
00:18:52:22 - 00:19:24:01
Clark
But I just, you know, in talking to other filmmakers and creatives, people that, you know, I've worked with or friends or, you know, kind of we're on this journey of being a filmmaker together. It's something that I think I see a lot of people kind of struggling with some of that, pieces of that or the entirety of it, but it's definitely something I'm working toward, especially that capturing cat like, you know, and I think getting off my ass and, you know, it'd be like, okay, I had this idea, let's take 10 minutes and let's write it down and let's actually follow through, you know?
00:19:24:02 - 00:19:46:21
Cullen
And I think I think a huge part of it, too, again, goes back to making sure that you don't confuse it with the the you know, we are not garbage collectors. We're not because I think that it can be easily, easily confused into people thinking, you know, when I say again when I say I went out and I recorded all these images and brought stories with them, that wasn't me going out and getting 10 hours of footage and then cutting through it.
00:19:46:21 - 00:20:05:14
Cullen
Every image that I took, every thing that I recorded was very intentional and very much on the spot going, That is interesting. And I think that goes with his whole talk about, you know, going and walking. And one of the task for this lesson was to go out and walk on Miles. And I think, well, they said that I didn't do that.
00:20:05:17 - 00:20:12:05
Cullen
I have I have done long walks, but I have not done the official 100 we have. They did change it and they said, well, Miles or something.
00:20:12:12 - 00:20:35:15
Clark
Yeah. Well, since, you know, I have a little bit of pride here because, you know, you and I and a handful of others, we were, I think, some of the very first people to take this class. So they I mean, I jumped on it the instant it was like day one I was taking it. And I think a lot of us were really close in that first workbook that they had with the class.
00:20:35:15 - 00:20:41:06
Clark
The, the, the exercise for this lesson was, yeah, it was Walk a hundred miles.
00:20:42:07 - 00:20:42:21
Cullen
Mm hmm. Yeah.
00:20:42:21 - 00:21:00:12
Clark
And they've changed it now. It's it's been a little while since I have seen the workbook, so maybe they have updated it even since. So I can't, you know, 100% speak to this, but I know it wasn't too long after that that they changed it to something. I'll paraphrase, take a take a long walk.
00:21:00:12 - 00:21:02:03
Cullen
Right. I guess maybe it's a liability thing.
00:21:02:11 - 00:21:10:16
Clark
I think they were afraid people were going to step out their front porch and, you know, just walk in. Forrest Gump. Yeah. Just walk a hundred miles and then you lost it.
00:21:11:00 - 00:21:13:15
Cullen
You did? Years up here, I think. Exactly.
00:21:13:16 - 00:21:14:06
Clark
Yeah, I did.
00:21:14:06 - 00:21:15:12
Cullen
That year when you were in Toronto.
00:21:15:14 - 00:21:37:11
Clark
I did, actually. It was totally coincidental, but it was I was traveling with my wife for business. We went to Chicago and then we went to Toronto. And yeah, we spent a good couple, two, maybe three weeks up there. So yeah, I actually did mine around the Niagara Falls area, actually, believe it or not.
00:21:37:18 - 00:21:40:17
Cullen
Mm hmm. Yeah, which would be I mean, those there's lots of farmland out there.
00:21:40:17 - 00:21:53:22
Clark
Oh, it was. It was very interesting. I had no idea the rural ness and the kind of economic depression. Yes. Of that era and our area. And it was it was a really, really, really cool experience.
00:21:53:23 - 00:22:09:14
Cullen
You know, I think it's. Yeah, but I mean, again, that's the thing is I've again, as I said, I've never done this specifically 100 miles, you know, in relation to this. But any time I'm in a different country, any time even here, you know, just going for hikes and walks and finding.
00:22:09:14 - 00:22:10:09
Clark
The only way to do it.
00:22:10:12 - 00:22:29:03
Cullen
Images. That was one of my favorite things about being in Italy was just being able to walk around again, you know, and it's in it comes from like I think that the biggest thing is it's not walking around with a pen and paper and taking notes. So not even even necessarily walking around with a camera and taking pictures of everything which you can do.
00:22:29:03 - 00:22:30:23
Cullen
But I mean, it's not that's not what it is. It's not like.
00:22:30:23 - 00:22:31:16
Clark
Even yeah.
00:22:31:17 - 00:22:48:12
Cullen
It can be literally you can be doing it with nothing. You can be doing it. I remember when I was in Italy, I at one point was walking and I heard it was a most interesting noise. It was these kids playing on one side of me and then this this big party with this like band playing. And it was on the coast.
00:22:48:12 - 00:23:07:07
Cullen
It was this tiny little town in Chincoteague. And I just I pulled up my phone. I didn't record video of it. I just recorded the audio of it just as a little kind of staple to it for me to remember. You know what, this this just the setting is so rich in in stories to me. And I just wanted to capture the sound which really stuck out to me.
00:23:07:16 - 00:23:19:03
Clark
And I agree. And I actually, you know, it's and by the way, Italy is one of my most favorite countries. And the other benefit of walking in Italy is to try to burn off some of that fantastic pasta.
00:23:19:03 - 00:23:21:00
Cullen
But yes, yes, but.
00:23:21:05 - 00:23:44:03
Clark
You know, I agree. And I've even gotten to the point, you know, you talk about it's not about, you know, taking notes and taking photos or video everywhere. I've actually gotten to the point where I don't I mean, I don't a, no cameras. It's not about it's a totally different thing. It's like when I'm when I'm shooting, I'm shooting when I'm when I'm living and I'm filling that reservoir of inspiration.
00:23:44:10 - 00:24:08:02
Clark
I'm not shooting and everybody's different. I'm not saying that this just somebody else should do this at all. I'm just saying my experience is that it's about me being present. And when I'm behind a camera, it's not that I'm not present, but I'm present in a completely different endeavor. It's a completely different type of presence. When I'm living, I don't want a camera in front of my face.
00:24:08:02 - 00:24:12:02
Clark
I don't want to be looking through a viewfinder as opposed to being right there.
00:24:13:00 - 00:24:25:14
Cullen
And that's again, I mean, I'm, I would say, kind of in the middle. I don't yeah, I, I that's one of the reasons I, I think we talked about this before, but I usually if I'm traveling, I'll bring a 35 millimeter stills camera right.
00:24:25:14 - 00:24:25:19
Clark
Yeah.
00:24:25:19 - 00:24:40:07
Cullen
And that what is what I find that does the actual film which when I find that does is that it'll make me you know if I've got 36 exposures in a day or even for a whole trip sometimes then I'm not going to just have the camera phone in my face at all times. I'm great being. I'm looking very.
00:24:40:07 - 00:24:40:20
Clark
Specific.
00:24:40:20 - 00:25:01:19
Cullen
And again, it's yeah, it's every single time I'm taking an image that is a portion of the images that I am able to take for the whole trip and a quite a large portion when it is again 36 exposures for a role. Yeah. And I find that, that that kind of helps me strike a balance just because there are a lot of times where I'm, you know, I do want to be somewhere that I can photograph it.
00:25:02:17 - 00:25:18:18
Cullen
And because that to me sometimes will bring out a really lovely inspiration later on when I can look back on it. But at the same time, I don't want to be standing there with a DSLR snapping pictures constantly or even like a phone and just recording everything. I find that really and it's I mean, you might feel the same way.
00:25:19:20 - 00:25:39:00
Cullen
I find if I am there with the like with a phone or even with a camera that can record video, What I found traveling a lot with, with things like that, when I kind of stopped and went to this idea of doing it on film was because you almost remember the videos. You don't remember the experience of being there.
00:25:39:01 - 00:25:46:13
Cullen
Like, I mean, I think it's quite a focus exactly. When I think back on these trips, it's like I think of the shot that I got not yeah, the, the.
00:25:46:14 - 00:25:47:06
Clark
Experience.
00:25:47:06 - 00:25:49:18
Cullen
Of standing on a coast or something like that. Yeah.
00:25:49:21 - 00:26:07:22
Clark
And this is what, you know and this is not to get, you know, too far off the beaten path here with, you know, with this lesson. But I think this is so key. I mean, at least for me, it's having those experiences and allowing them to really fully set in my memory, in my mind, in my heart.
00:26:08:13 - 00:26:08:21
Cullen
Mm hmm.
00:26:09:08 - 00:26:35:08
Clark
Because it's not there's no way I'm going to, especially with a phone. I'm not going to grab that sunset. I'm not going to grab that coastline. I'm not going to grab most importantly, this moment, this emotion or moment. But but if I allow that memory to really set in, me and I and that resonates inside of me, it's the feeling of that that I want to have that to recreate in a moment in film later.
00:26:35:08 - 00:26:57:00
Clark
It's not I don't there's nothing literal that I need to take from that. I don't need a video or a photo. I need the feeling. And then I have this reservoir of emotion, of tone, of texture, of color, of experience, of life, and you bring that to your next project. So for me, for me.
00:26:57:10 - 00:27:05:19
Cullen
No, I mean, that's that's that's exactly like I think it's yeah, it's exactly I mean, I can't put into better words.
00:27:05:19 - 00:27:06:22
Clark
Can't put it in a better way.
00:27:06:22 - 00:27:22:18
Cullen
Blows me away, you know. But I mean, again, I think I do want to specify one part. You did say which about, you know, about the sunset, that you're not going to capture the sunset and it's not, you know, you're not going to bring that phone back and be like, look at, you know, here family. Look at this beautiful picture of the sunset or even online.
00:27:23:03 - 00:27:40:22
Cullen
And and I think and I think that that is a really important thing is compartmentalizing it in a good way. I think in what what you said is essentially that is is when I'm shooting, I'm shooting. And, you know, I can combine trips like that. There are times, you know, for example, when I was in Italy, I had my camera with me.
00:27:40:22 - 00:27:43:01
Cullen
I had did the smaller black magic things.
00:27:43:01 - 00:27:44:23
Clark
To keep their distance. It's like but I.
00:27:44:23 - 00:27:57:12
Cullen
Also I mean, I there were times I wouldn't bring it. Yeah. I would just, you know, I would go for a walk in a city and then maybe I would see some cool things and then I'd go, okay, this evening I'm going to come back here with my camera and I'm going to get some shots of this because I really like it.
00:27:57:18 - 00:28:04:06
Cullen
And I would always experi. It's at first. Same with when I was in Iceland, I had my camera with me because that whole trip to Iceland.
00:28:04:09 - 00:28:05:05
Clark
To go to Iceland.
00:28:05:05 - 00:28:06:22
Cullen
Oh, beautiful place, by the way, if you ever.
00:28:07:02 - 00:28:09:14
Clark
Well, we're going to have this on the list. It's on the list.
00:28:09:14 - 00:28:25:19
Cullen
But, you know, I had my camera with me in that whole the point of that trip was actually to get footage for a movie that you're still in the works. But, you know, again, I would I would go around and walk around and experience these places before even getting any footage because I wanted to be there.
00:28:25:20 - 00:28:54:14
Clark
Yeah. And I mean, let me even add this. I mean, look, we've talked about kind of the literal, right, traveling on foot, literally, where it's, you know, okay, I'm walking, but there's, you know, figuratively we can look at this, too, you know, even in our day to day lives, even in the most, you know, mundane, trivial, seemingly boring aspects of our life, going to the grocery store, standing in line, you know, going to the bank, mowing your mind, talking to your neighbors there.
00:28:54:15 - 00:29:20:08
Clark
I mean, it's there is a richness there that is it is willing and ready for you to bring yourself to it, if you will. If you will take that invitation to do so and be present. And I think, you know, walking forces you to be present. You're physically involved in your environment. You're not moving at a speed that makes it impossible to interact with people.
00:29:20:08 - 00:29:35:08
Clark
You're there, right? You're the ground is beneath the feet. The you're the wind is running through your hair and your you're forced to interact with where you're at and you're kind of stuck in a way, too, Right? Because if you walk, you know, 15 miles out like you've got.
00:29:35:08 - 00:29:35:18
Cullen
Yeah.
00:29:35:18 - 00:29:36:08
Clark
You're not come.
00:29:36:08 - 00:30:04:04
Cullen
Back. Well, I actually I kind of want to shout out a great YouTube channel that I just found a few days ago called Bold and Bankrupt. And it is super related to this. It's basically this guy, he's from Britain, but he speaks Russian. I guess he just learned Russian and he literally just travels around like the Baltic states, these old Cold War kind of towns and things like that, and just walks around them and just talks to people.
00:30:04:04 - 00:30:08:12
Cullen
And it's one of the most interesting channels. I've just, you know, again, I found it like two days ago.
00:30:08:12 - 00:30:09:03
Clark
I'll check that out.
00:30:09:03 - 00:30:16:10
Cullen
And and just have been watching it nonstop and yeah, like, you know, he goes to Chechnya and just hires this cabdriver to.
00:30:16:14 - 00:30:18:02
Clark
And these stories are everywhere.
00:30:18:14 - 00:30:42:15
Cullen
Exactly. And you know, even going into this old he goes into at one point in Kyrgyzstan, he goes into this old hotel and it's you know, he gets a room and then he realizes after kind of exploring the hotel that his room is pretty much the only room that actually is a room that every other room is this abandoned old again, kind of Chernobyl looking like, yeah, derelict, you know, And it's really, really neat.
00:30:42:16 - 00:31:01:09
Cullen
It's so that's, you know, again, I don't know the guy at all so I'm not like shelling out for a friend, but I just thought it was it's really, you know, if you want to see probably a really good and you know, captured example of how a great way to travel is. I think, you know, just talking to people on the street and things like that is really.
00:31:01:19 - 00:31:20:03
Clark
And I think yeah. And it sounds like I mean, if I'm if I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like that he he's taking the time to, you know, to talk to people and to hear their stories. And he just so happens to be, you know, recording them and highlighting them in this in this podcast or this these videos that you're talking about.
00:31:20:03 - 00:31:50:06
Clark
Sorry, not podcasts, but I mean, it's if you take the time and I'm like constantly reminding myself of this because I, you know, like all of us, I get caught up in my day to day and I get just kind of goal driven. I've got to do ABC, TFG, and I just I find that when you really slow down and you really kind of make yourself present and curious and this is this is so key, follow, you know, be curious about and that'll kind of it'll open up into more things.
00:31:50:06 - 00:32:06:13
Clark
You know, sometimes you might have to kind of force yourself a little bit, you know, to kind of be curious. But I think once you kind of crack that door open, you'll find that you like that curiosity becomes more and more genuine and greater and greater. But everybody has such extraordinary stories of, yeah.
00:32:07:04 - 00:32:24:13
Cullen
I met a guy few probably three or four weeks maybe it was actually more than that. I was probably more like two months ago, but it was this I was getting in a convenience store. I was just getting a bag of chips or something. When I came out and there was this one legged homeless man standing just outside the convenience store.
00:32:24:13 - 00:32:27:05
Cullen
And I don't know why. I just struck up a conversation with him.
00:32:27:05 - 00:32:36:16
Clark
Was he like, I don't mean to be rude, I'm so sorry, but just the visual part of my brain. So he was. He had one leg. Yeah. Was. And he was standing outside the store.
00:32:36:18 - 00:32:38:11
Cullen
He was old. He was, was on crutches. Yeah.
00:32:38:11 - 00:32:43:15
Clark
Okay. I was just like this for a second. I kind of saw like this balancing character and I thought, Wow, that. Well, I.
00:32:43:15 - 00:32:44:03
Cullen
Think what.
00:32:44:03 - 00:32:44:10
Clark
Really.
00:32:44:10 - 00:32:56:02
Cullen
Really struck it to me was that he looked like he had this basic interpretation of like, you know, like a Civil War veteran. Like, that's what almost like he was this old kind of disheveled old man. And had what struck you about leg like?
00:32:56:06 - 00:32:56:14
Clark
I don't know.
00:32:56:14 - 00:32:57:06
Cullen
It was just something.
00:32:57:06 - 00:32:58:12
Clark
He's wearing or I.
00:32:58:13 - 00:33:12:05
Cullen
Don't know. It's like why? I think he just he was just sort of sitting there and I asked him if he wanted a sandwich. Okay. So I went back in and I bought him a sandwich after. But and then I remember talking to him. I just at one point just sort of said to him, like, I feel like you're, like, full of stories.
00:33:12:06 - 00:33:13:02
Clark
Yeah.
00:33:13:02 - 00:33:19:14
Cullen
Like, you just seem like you've had quite, quite, quite a life. Not, you know, not only just because of his physical state. No, no, no.
00:33:19:15 - 00:33:20:05
Clark
Just something.
00:33:20:05 - 00:33:45:20
Cullen
Just an energy about people. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That really kind of exudes that. I completely agree that idea. And I mean, but again, it can be people, but it can also be physical locations Herzog talks about or other objects. Yeah and Brittany and France and yeah those Neolithic stone slabs erected in kind of that that hill Yeah. And he talks about how that was just the most fascinating thing in the world to him, that there was somebody that said it was aliens.
00:33:45:20 - 00:33:58:14
Cullen
And now here are these how did these people do this? And it's the same thing with, you know, of course, the more popular example of that is Stonehenge. But there's there's things like that all over the world and even small objects.
00:33:58:14 - 00:34:38:17
Clark
I mean, just, you know, you pick up anything in your house, pick up anything outside in your front yard, and there is this really rich story behind it. And you may never be able to sort it, retrace it, but you can imagine what it might be. Everything in in life all around you has an extraordinary story. If you're open to it and if you're willing to be present to it, it's getting I know, kind of like a little maybe new agey or like philosophical, but I mean, I really truly, you know, believe that as I mean, look, if you know, our our kind of job, if you will, on this planet, is to is to
00:34:38:17 - 00:34:53:16
Clark
be a storyteller. And we've chosen film to do that as a medium to do that. I mean, I feel like as artists, as human beings, like that's your job is to keep yourself open to all these stories around you and be a conduit.
00:34:54:08 - 00:35:14:21
Cullen
And I think that even, you know, a part of that is about the challenge, too. Yeah, we are. We are really lucky to live in an age. Filming something doesn't cost anything. No. So like, you know, go around doing the play if you want perhaps a lesson or a challenge, you know, go as you said, go pick up something in your house and make a one minute movie about it.
00:35:15:04 - 00:35:26:07
Cullen
You know, even if it's boring as hell, it doesn't really matter. It's the point is that you're it's just it's again, it's it's expanding your ability to find stories and everything and it's.
00:35:26:07 - 00:35:26:22
Clark
Exercise.
00:35:26:22 - 00:35:28:09
Cullen
Exercising for your brain. Yeah.
00:35:28:10 - 00:36:04:05
Clark
And I think there's something that's really, really closely related here. There's something that I think it's really vital that it's a word or concept I have not used yet in this conversation. But I think it's so key and that's empathy. And I think like that what we're basically talking about here as we're talking about being open to the stories of everything around you and that that's really the part of you that you're that you're using to do that with, is you're able to empathize with something that's the that's the part of your of your mind, body, soul, spirit, whatever you want to call it that, that gives us the power to do that.
00:36:04:05 - 00:36:32:01
Clark
And that can definitely be exercised. The more you work on doing that, the easier and easier it becomes and the greater depth to which you can do it. It absolutely can be exercised and know if you go to if you go to a good acting class or school, that's exactly what you're practicing. That's exactly what you're exercising. And I think that it's obviously it's vital for an actor, but it is just as vital for a director or a writer or anyone else.
00:36:32:03 - 00:36:34:12
Clark
Mm hmm. But and yeah, and even.
00:36:34:12 - 00:37:03:05
Cullen
The roles that people, you know, would consider a lot of people consider to be less story involves, which is, you know, often a misconception. But something like cinematographer you know being able to I think Herzog specifically looks for cinematographers who can to can improvise and find right stories just within absolute shots. And that's exactly what he did with the same movie that he where he's and he talks about it in this lesson about where he finds his protagonist, this other character.
00:37:03:05 - 00:37:03:22
Cullen
And it's it's like.
00:37:04:03 - 00:37:06:17
Clark
Oh, yeah, yeah. It was a white diamond.
00:37:06:22 - 00:37:07:12
Cullen
Oh, yeah.
00:37:07:18 - 00:37:13:05
Clark
White diamond. Talking about white diamond. What's funny in that instance, I don't think it was actually his cinematographer.
00:37:13:05 - 00:37:14:15
Cullen
Yeah, I think he was doing it himself.
00:37:14:17 - 00:37:38:17
Clark
He was actually he kind of found this character, but right. And, you know, and it's we talked about this just a tiny bit before. But yeah, it's a great example of, you know, being in the moment, allowing things to happen, you know, accepting these gifts, so to speak, that come to you accidentally while you're shooting and having kind of the intuitive understanding that, hey, there is another really amazing story here, let's go get this.
00:37:39:18 - 00:38:02:14
Clark
But I also we talked about this a little bit. I think it's fantastic. So White Diamond is a quote unquote documentary. But of course, as anybody who is a fan or a scholar of Herzog's work knows that, you know, documentaries and his narratives, he really doesn't see a difference between the two. And he often will manufacture things in his documentaries because, of course, facts don't equal truth.
00:38:03:03 - 00:38:23:04
Clark
And so but but White Diamond, he he comes across guy who's just kind of hanging out. Nobody knows who he is or at least you know it's Herzog was had no idea who he was or what he was doing and he just looked interesting to Herzog. So he walks, you know, he's like grabs his cinematographer, you know, tugs on him, hey, come over here and starts talking to him.
00:38:23:18 - 00:38:31:03
Clark
And actually, he doesn't even really hardly talk to him. If you watch the footage that's in the film, he mostly just puts the camera on him and this guy just does his thing.
00:38:31:07 - 00:38:39:20
Cullen
That's what I mean, is that it's it's, it's exactly the literal interpretation probably of what this movie is, as it were. What this lesson is, is invaded by images.
00:38:40:03 - 00:38:49:01
Clark
And that's it's like this guy that you found at the outside the store, right? Yeah. I mean, if you would have had a camera on you, you could have you know, I think if you approach it in the right way, you could have walked over to him.
00:38:49:01 - 00:39:02:22
Cullen
Oh, I actually spoke to him and said, you know, I don't know when, but one day I'm going to interview you. I think I actually said that to him and he said, oh, I'll be able to top the 3 hours. So that was what was funny, is that I you know, I never arranged anything, but I'm sure I'll see that dude again.
00:39:03:09 - 00:39:05:11
Cullen
It's quite nearby to me, so.
00:39:05:11 - 00:39:09:09
Clark
Well, yeah, follow up on it, you know, to follow up on it.
00:39:09:09 - 00:39:12:23
Cullen
And that's the difficulty with, with things like COVID is that, you know, Oh.
00:39:13:00 - 00:39:13:12
Clark
That's for.
00:39:13:12 - 00:39:14:13
Cullen
Sure. I've got to be careful.
00:39:14:13 - 00:39:23:01
Clark
But hopefully I read that the first, uh, vaccinated, first person was vaccinated today. Yeah.
00:39:24:02 - 00:39:25:17
Cullen
I saw it in the U.K.. Yeah.
00:39:26:00 - 00:39:29:13
Clark
So hopefully that'll get that'll, that'll get rolled out.
00:39:29:13 - 00:39:30:00
Cullen
Exactly.
00:39:30:00 - 00:39:50:20
Clark
And hopefully we'll be past COVID in the not too distant future. But, you know, I think and you never know. I mean, this is just, you know, one of the things that I just love so much about filmmaking is, you know, and Herzog talks about this, about gather your ideas and give them time. You know, and we've talked about we've touched about this and like a handful of other little ways as we've talked about these lessons.
00:39:50:20 - 00:40:21:21
Clark
But, you know, it's like, okay, so you've got this in the back of your pocket now, this character that you've seen, obviously, he like clearly he had an impact on you. You felt something. You were inspired by him in a certain way. You were kind of moved by this character and, you know, maybe it that you're going to have that kind of piece and maybe that's going to connect with something else that you see in a week or two weeks or maybe even a year, and you're like, Oh, this is, you know, this is and maybe it's not even that you're going to go back and interview him, but maybe if you're working on a
00:40:21:21 - 00:40:38:20
Clark
narrative film, for example, you'll have a character that, you know, sits outside of a grocery store and, you know, you know what I mean? It's there's just a lot of different ways and tastes can inspire. And this could be a part of the big stew that that cauldron of just ideas that are simmering. You know.
00:40:39:02 - 00:40:59:00
Cullen
And again, it can sometimes be such an it can be the fact that there's just a really evocative image that, you know, you love. You know, again, I've made entire movies because I've seen a power plant with a moon setting beyond below it. And yeah, that's such an interesting visual. How can I fit that within a framework and utilize that?
00:40:59:04 - 00:41:06:06
Clark
Or it's like the windows, the 10,000 windmills for Herzog or and I can't believe I have not talked about this yet. Chickens.
00:41:06:12 - 00:41:09:02
Cullen
Chickens. His favorite. His favorite.
00:41:09:11 - 00:41:31:10
Clark
If I'm not mistaken. I think the less said 19 ends with the chickens but yeah it yeah but it's sometimes these that and that's invaded by images is such a beautiful kind of poetic way to label this that there's just something so and I don't limited to just images because I think often for me at least it's ideas.
00:41:31:16 - 00:41:32:21
Cullen
Yes yes of course.
00:41:32:21 - 00:42:01:19
Clark
And maybe frankly more so than images. It's ideas, curiosities that I have about the human condition and usually, honestly, we haven't talked about this yet. Really? I'm curious what you're saying. You know, for me a lot of times, and not just with documentaries, but with narrative films as well, but especially but of course, documentaries, questions that I have are I find more and more if I pay attention, what where do I have questions?
00:42:01:19 - 00:42:27:22
Clark
And and it's it's not even that. I'm like, Well, let me go find the answer and then I'll make a film about that. It's like, I want to make a film that just asked this questions that I'm interested in. And it's not that there is some actual answer out there necessarily, although there might be, but it's really and maybe this is just a reframing of, you know, going towards my curiosities, but I mean, it's almost boring for me.
00:42:27:22 - 00:42:47:10
Clark
It's like, well, you know, if I feel like I really understand a subject, I don't care to make a film in that maybe, yeah, but but areas where I'm like, my gosh, I don't, you know, I'm just, like, blown away and mesmerized and, and just totally confused by this like, aspect of the human condition or life. That's where I want to go, that's for sure.
00:42:47:10 - 00:43:18:16
Cullen
Yeah. I mean, I've always looked at filmmaking as an opportunity to like to learn, if anything. Absolutely. You know, if I, for my entire life have a desire to, you know, get my pilot's license and learn to fly and all that. And it's still it's still something that I'm planning on doing hopefully soon. Yeah. But a lot of that is also, you know, comes from a desire of just like the things that I would see up there in the story that I could probably tell, just the inspiration of just seeing the world from that perspective.
00:43:18:16 - 00:43:38:00
Cullen
I think it's so yeah, so neat. And, and I can, you know, again, it's like one of those things where it's, you know, perhaps if I, if that never happens and I'm never able to, to do that for some reason, then maybe if I ever had the money to do it, I'd make a movie about flying just so I could get, you know, get up in a plane and and fly.
00:43:38:00 - 00:43:57:07
Cullen
And it's it's you know, I find that often it is. It's exactly that. It's I it's not excuses, but it is offer it's grants you opportunities to to learn new things to explore new areas. That was the entirety of what we did when I was in L.A. was yes, exploring entire, you know, philosophies of life that neither of us knew anything about.
00:43:57:12 - 00:44:11:11
Cullen
Right. And I think that was I mean, the funny thing, too, but not to, you know, dwell on that too much. But I think the funny thing about what we did there was the people we were interviewing were almost concerned that we were going at it at a cynical place, because I think so many people do.
00:44:11:13 - 00:44:12:23
Clark
They in what.
00:44:12:23 - 00:44:13:06
Cullen
I think.
00:44:13:15 - 00:44:22:06
Clark
Like almost everybody we interviewed was actually like very much concerned. Like, yeah, are you what is this, an exposé? Are you trying to debunk my thoughts? Are you.
00:44:22:06 - 00:44:44:03
Cullen
Yeah. Or were we kind of how we I think one of them over which is kind of saying we literally know nothing about it and we are here because we're we're interested in learning about other ways of thinking. Yeah. And I think that was a huge part of, again, where those conversations stemmed from too, which was not just and this, you know, this is covered certainly in the next episode, which is all about making conversation with documentary.
00:44:44:03 - 00:45:01:23
Cullen
But yeah, you know, it's related here, whereas is just the whole point of it was just a curiosity on our part. And I think that that is a huge part of of invaded by images. Yeah. Is just is just let that you know again the burglars come in the night be curious about that. Be curious about why that idea.
00:45:02:10 - 00:45:02:16
Clark
Stuck.
00:45:02:16 - 00:45:03:15
Cullen
Out to you or why an image.
00:45:03:15 - 00:45:04:15
Clark
Don't sleep through it.
00:45:04:19 - 00:45:25:13
Cullen
If you're sitting on the bus or why did that? Why did that old lady stumbling off the bus? Yeah. Stick with you. Yeah. You know, use those elements. And as Herzog, you know what is the story Herzog tells about Fitzcarraldo? How he says that he was had no interest in making the movie based off of the script. That had zero interest in the script, except for the moment.
00:45:25:13 - 00:45:26:21
Clark
Except for that moment. Right.
00:45:26:21 - 00:45:47:11
Cullen
You know, disassembling a ship to carry it over a mountain. Of course, that's changed to not disassembling a ship. But. Yeah, but but that again, it's like the amount of time that I think that that goes for a lot of things too, where people often reading a script, throw it out if it's not good. Hmm. Whereas you should really mine those things for ideas.
00:45:47:11 - 00:46:02:00
Cullen
And I don't mean, of course, steal ideas from, you know, people who have written scripts and run off with them. But but I mean, you know, if someone presents you a script to work with that worked with the things that you do like, I think, you know, even if it's just one one little diamond in the rough.
00:46:02:00 - 00:46:23:07
Clark
If if you're a director, if you're going to direct a project where you've not written it, you've been given a script to direct, well, you have to. I mean, there's no question that if you I mean, at least for me at look, obviously there's kind of the logistics of life. And, you know, we speak in kind of an idealized way a lot of time.
00:46:23:07 - 00:46:46:10
Clark
I get that. So if you're listing out there, it's not that we don't understand that I sometimes do just the practicalities of putting food on your plate or working your way to another place in your career that you want to be. Of course we understand that. But I mean, at least, you know, for me, wherever and whenever possible, I mean, it's it's it I mean, it's hard for me to say that it's not absolutely vital, frankly.
00:46:46:10 - 00:47:06:10
Clark
I think it just is for me. I've got to be passionate about that script. And sometimes you've got to really work at it. But I found every in every instance I could, I found the things about it that were interesting to me or where there could be. Right. And maybe they were just these tiny little beginnings of that in the script.
00:47:07:05 - 00:47:24:17
Clark
But I take those run with it and make that, yeah, you know, the majority of the script and kind of, you know, turn it inside out from that point and rework it. And so, I mean, I think, again, if you're curious, if you if you've got a curiosity about you, then you can do that with any you can.
00:47:24:20 - 00:47:25:15
Cullen
Tell any story.
00:47:26:00 - 00:47:26:09
Clark
You can tell.
00:47:26:09 - 00:47:32:05
Cullen
And really that's it is that's all stories are is it's a is a curiosity. And you know this would actually be a finally.
00:47:32:05 - 00:47:53:16
Clark
Know this and actually be kind of a fun like a fun project I don't know to take to create a series of short films to have this kind of be like an exercise, you know, almost like the Dogma 95 kind of set of rules that, you know, but to to make short films about single inanimate objects. Yeah, yeah.
00:47:53:22 - 00:48:21:03
Clark
That were that were like the definition of simplicity. But see how you can take what is seemingly the most simple of items that could happen possibly be interesting and find a story in that reveal the story that could exist behind this object. That would be a fun experiment. Maybe we could do that some time. You know, we'll have like a little a contest and we'll take submissions, but we'll try it ourselves, you know?
00:48:21:06 - 00:48:25:04
Cullen
Hmm. Yeah, that'd be a lot of fun. That's a little challenge for our listeners.
00:48:25:06 - 00:48:45:02
Clark
Absolutely. And for ourselves. I'd like. Yeah. You know, it's I think, you know, the past three or four episodes that we've done, I think I've said the exact same thing. I'll say it again now, but, you know, these conversations inspire me and and remind me. I'm like, I'm kind of, you know, I'm really kind of psyched right now.
00:48:45:05 - 00:48:58:10
Cullen
I think I want to also we've never really specified this, but there's, you know, just for anybody who's curious, who listens, like there there was no money going into this. This was oh, no, me and Clark sitting down and deciding to record our conversation.
00:48:58:10 - 00:48:59:00
Clark
They know that.
00:48:59:00 - 00:49:00:09
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I hope so.
00:49:00:14 - 00:49:03:16
Clark
Because, like, obviously there's no sponsors. There's no I mean, this.
00:49:03:16 - 00:49:37:00
Cullen
Is but I mean that's, that's what I mean is so like that there's so many podcasts out there that are, that are commercial, that are, that are, you know, and they can be very good. But they are, of course, at end of the day, they are someone's job. Whereas I think what what I found really, you know, fulfilling about this is just the fact that we are able to have these conversations without any, you know, pretense background, any any sort of ulterior motive to to, you know, drive these conversations in any specific direction where it's just more about it's literally us doing these exercises as as well, which are.
00:49:37:01 - 00:50:04:18
Clark
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All right. Well, they don't hey I you can't beat that for a great note wrap up. Yeah. So yeah so like you mentioned, well, lesson 20 will be our next episode, and that's about documentary filmmaker making the conversation, so that'll be exciting. I look forward to that. And as far as this conversation's gone, I've really enjoyed it as always, man, I leave these, these conversations energized.
00:50:04:23 - 00:50:20:00
Clark
Yeah, I like it. Reminds me of some things I might have forgotten. It kind of inspires me and I'm excited to get on with the rest of my week here and and be more attuned to all of the potential story ideas that exist around me.
00:50:20:04 - 00:50:21:00
Cullen
So, yeah.
00:50:21:17 - 00:50:27:07
Clark
All right. Well, thanks, everybody. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we have. Until next time.
00:50:28:22 - 00:50:37:08
Cullen
See you guys.