Cullen
Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. This is episode 18 and Bear with me here for a second Lesson 20 and 21 You've got to be off kilter there. But yeah, today we're going be talking with documentary, making the conversation and eliciting difficult stories. And of course, as always, I am joined by good friend Clark Coffey.
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Clark
Hello. Hello.
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Cullen
And yeah, I mean, let's jump into it.
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Clark
Let's jump into it. I you know, I love documentary films. It's an obviously we're like films. We love films or filmmakers. But I'm curious before we, like, jump into what what Herzog covers here in these two lessons, I'm just curious because for me, I didn't come to appreciate or even, you know, I love documentary films until I was quite a bit older.
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Clark
And maybe this is normal. I mean, probably not like not a lot of 12 year olds who are, you know, watching documentary films all day long. But what about you? I was much older, probably. I would say it wasn't until college that I started to really get into documentary films, you know, as an audience member, right?
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Cullen
Yeah. I mean, I was I was kind of not really by choice. I was sort of not really forced forced into them, but like Clockwork Orange. Exactly. Yeah. But, you know, I have there's Tiff here in Toronto which.
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Clark
Is I've been there.
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Cullen
Film festival and then there's they've got the building and they so they played Yeah they always play a lot of really interesting you know world cinema which is a great resource to have as a kid rather than just your regular multiplexes. Right. And so I used to go there a lot, see a lot of documentaries there.
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Clark
Oh, fantastic.
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Cullen
India. China.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
I'm so jealous, Grizzly man. Honestly, I think it was like the year after it came out. So it came out 2005, right?
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Clark
Okay. 2005.
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Cullen
And I think probably 2006. My grandma for some reason got me the DVD.
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Clark
Oh, nice.
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Cullen
So that was probably.
00:02:04:01 - 00:02:05:12
Clark
Pretty hip grandma, man.
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Cullen
That was probably the first Herzog I ever saw.
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Clark
You know, That's interesting that you say that, eh? It is definitely not the first Herzog film I saw, but it certainly was, you know, at the at the, you know, where I had really gotten into documentary filmmaking as much as I am today. So it was kind of at the in the beginning couple of chapters of that exploration definitely had a huge impact and definitely was a big part of that for sure.
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Clark
Yeah, yeah. And I definitely didn't have the kind of, for lack of a better term, you know, relationship with Herzog's work then as I do now. So it definitely was kind of part of that formative, you know, experience of me getting to know him and his work and yeah, getting like more familiar with just the medium in and of itself documentary films.
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Cullen
So and I think this is this is very related to Herzog, but in a kind of a weird way, another thing that is in Toronto that I think really influenced me growing up was the synesthesia, which is the first permanent IMAX theater in the world. Oh, really? And it's having a lot of really neat theater, but they used to play a lot of like old IMAX documentaries.
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Cullen
And I think and the way that this is related to Herzog is that I think there's a relationship between the fact that IMAX documentaries are usually like movies, like they feel very, very narrative driven. They're very, you know, big, of course, because, you know, you have the big IMAX camera. You want really a show of spectacle, right? Herzog is similar, perhaps not necessarily for spectacle, but he always talks about the fact that his documentaries are narrative to him, Like he doesn't really think of them as a journalistic endeavor.
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Cullen
He thinks of them as a narrative endeavor.
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Clark
Absolutely.
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Cullen
Refers to his, you know, subjects as documentaries.
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Clark
Yeah. Yeah. And even if we're going to talk about what he manipulates, absolutely. Yeah.
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Cullen
So I think that that was a big part. So when it comes to me personally, you know, I love I really like watching documentaries. I, I have no it's kind of a, you know, a little bit of a paradox. I have no desire to be a documentary filmmaker professionally, but I also really like making documentaries interesting. You know?
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Cullen
Me And you made that or are making one too. Great. We've we've shot some of it, but we're going out in that process. Yeah. You know, I made one of those over the past year in quarantine, right?
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Clark
I've got another one that I'm in production with. Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
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Cullen
Yeah.
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Clark
In the middle of COVID has put a little bit of a damper on that. But yeah.
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Cullen
But I think it's similar. Is that it's, it's like my desire for documentary isn't necessarily to go out and just interview people and have this hand-held, you know, shaky cam. Very, very low budget style. I am kind of on the same page as Herzog. And you know, again, for a larger scale, these IMAX documentaries where I really like even documentary to feel, you know, for lack of a better term, cinematic and to feel absolutely like you're you're kind of drawing.
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Clark
People that they're that they were made with purpose, with perspective and with and from an opinion. Well we're going to talk about, you know, quite a few things that Herzog talks about in these and these lessons that hopefully will, you know, shed a little bit of light on what we can do as filmmakers to take our documentary films to that level where they are cinema as opposed to fly on the wall.
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Clark
We're just going to set up a you know, might as well be a security camera just recording 24 seven and, you know, let's just see if we get something. But rather actually, you know, they're coming at it from a perspective. Having an opinion and a manipulating is a word that I'm like a little bit afraid of to use sometimes for this.
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Clark
But it is you're you are you're creating.
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Cullen
You're manipulating you even without intention. You're still.
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Clark
Images. You are. So you might as well just do it right. And it's like and it's right off the bat. This is a great, great place to jump right in. You know, the first thing Herzog says here is, look, it's not an interview. It's a conversation. I'm not a journalist. I'm a filmmaker. And there is a huge difference.
00:06:06:05 - 00:06:24:09
Clark
There's a huge difference. And I think, you know, I definitely have experienced personally working with other filmmakers where there is a little bit of a confusion where it's like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, Tono, we really have to present this. You know, we can't touch this stuff. You know, we just we set up the camera and what it is or what it is, what it is.
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Clark
And I'm like, Well, yeah, I don't work for The New York Times, you know, or that I am not your.
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Cullen
Fly on the wall. I have the porn at that stage.
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Clark
I'm a filmmaker, you know, that's the whole point. But, but yeah, I mean, so right off the bat, Herzog is approaching it from this way. You know, he's like this. And also, I think it's a great way to start off right off the bat by hopefully developing a rapport with your with the people that you're interviewing. Kind of you know, most people.
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Clark
Right? Most of us don't spend a lot of time on camera. So it's not second nature. You know, it's it's it's uncomfortable. People clam up, people get nervous. They don't want to look back.
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Cullen
With bigger cameras.
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Clark
They don't want to win or enlarge crews or we'll talk about Mark Crews.
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Cullen
Yeah, yeah.
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Clark
But most people, you know, it's like if you put a if you put a camera phone in front of most people and take their picture, right. What do people do They get they.
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Cullen
Get they.
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Clark
Get how they exactly try to present like they have a way they want to present themselves to the world. And and that especially with social media and Instagram and everything, that's a whole other road. But people are really kind of used to putting on this mask whenever they're on camera. Yeah. So a lot of what you're going to be doing and what we're going to be talking about here is to try to create an environment where you're not going down that road, where you're actually cracking the person open, so to speak.
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Clark
And and really like taking them to a place where they can be honest and vulnerable and where we can actually see something interesting there. Right.
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Cullen
And to not be exploitative, too, I Oh, that's.
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Clark
A good point. It's not about being exploit. You're right. And that's a that is a really good point. And I think we can kind of sprinkle that in throughout all these different techniques or strategies or philosophies that we're going to talk about that Herzog covers in these lessons. But you're right, I don't think Herzog explicitly speaks to that in these lessons, but I know he has in other places where you really have to be careful about not stepping over that boundary of exploiting people.
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Clark
You're right. And there's a big difference. Hopefully it well, it's interesting. Sometimes it maybe is a challenging line. You know, actually. And maybe we can talk about that as we kind of go through this. But sometimes it is actually I was going to say right after, you know, it's like there are some obvious examples of where you're stepping into exploits.
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Clark
But sometimes that line is a bit gray. Sometimes it's that's a it's challenging. Yeah, I've actually had that experience myself. But so anyway, I was saying that that if you present it as a conversation and that's the way you approach it, I think right off the bat you're, you're setting the stage for a better, a better, a better approach to get to the heart of what's inside your subjects, right?
00:09:17:08 - 00:09:27:17
Clark
I mean, I don't know about you, but if somebody sits across the table from me and starts reading from a list and they have all these questions and, you know, it's like they feel kind of disconnected and I'm like almost on a witness stand. That's kind of scary. Yeah.
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Cullen
Yeah. I mean, I think the other thing, too, is there's a you have to really draw that distinction between journalism and and documentary filmmaking because I think that there's it can be tricky to decipher. And in that what I mean is that like a journalist is coming in more often than not with, you know again, a story that thereafter.
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Cullen
Whereas I find that documentary filmmaking is a lot more about discovering that story. Yes, through.
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Clark
Its a filmmaking.
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Cullen
So rather than and you know, as a documentary filmmaker, I'm never going to lead a conversation to a point that I think.
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Clark
I'm going to use to end up.
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Cullen
A gossip out. Right? And I lead the conversation to a point that I think is the most interesting, regardless of the circumstance, right? I think that drawing that distinction is really important. So letting the person kind of take the lead that you're interviewing them and letting them lead you to your conclusion.
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Clark
Rather That's a great point, bringing.
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Cullen
A conclusion into it.
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Clark
And that's I think that's a good point. You know, it's a that's a good reason why you might not bring, you know, a plan or a you know, a very specific plan to that conversation. No list of questions, no pre interviews, no. You know, like agenda where you're going to, you know, expose something out and, you know, but really rather to approach it from a much more foundational kind of just curiosity and the human condition, curiosity in this person and their experience.
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Clark
And you're right, let them kind of show you where this as this conversation is going to go, as opposed to really pre-planning everything. So but but sometimes, too, you know, but then the flip side of that is, though, again, this kind of goes back to what we were talking about. You don't just set up the camera and kind of just let them talk for an hour.
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Clark
Yeah. You know, it's.
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Cullen
And it's that's that's right. Yeah. It's is there.
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Clark
Is some you know, you do have to kind of there's this art of and it's it's a challenging one to kind of articulate to or speak to because it's so.
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Cullen
The art of conversation. Right. It's like that's, that's what I mean when you say that. When I say that I'm not if I'm interviewing someone, I'm not trying to lead them to my conclusion. I'm trying to, you know, perhaps the person isn't that interesting of a storyteller. So my job then as the interview is to help them as well to to help them, but also to to kind of set up guidelines and to kind of, you know, maybe put down the safety net and sort of say like, here, talk about this.
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Cullen
I want well, I want to point out something that you said before.
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Clark
Yeah, why don't we.
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Cullen
And that's what you know, that's kind of what. Herzog I.
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Clark
Love this idea of his.
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Cullen
Or this episode. Yeah, yeah. But mean he and that directly goes with what he said when he's talking about little Dieter needs to fly.
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Clark
Yeah.
00:12:07:15 - 00:12:12:03
Cullen
And he says, you know that he went on and on and on for like a half hour.
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Clark
All right, so he's. He's describing his story. Yeah, It was his escape, right? Yeah.
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Cullen
Then he says. And then Herzog says, Well, you know, and this is again, this goes back to the idea of like, you're still shaping and you're still sort of scripting things as a filmmaker. There. He says, okay, do that again, just like working with an actor, do that again. But just just focus on this part. This time.
00:12:31:23 - 00:12:32:23
Clark
We're feeling 30.
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Cullen
Seconds. Yeah. And then he goes, Okay, I don't care about what the tree that you had under looked like, blah, blah, blah. I want to hear like this elicit me the raw emotion of what it was like to escape and what you felt and what you remember. And so, again, it is it is very much like working with an actor.
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Cullen
And that's something that you just wouldn't really get in journalism or live TV like, Right. You would It would be very, very different.
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Clark
Well, it's you're right. And it's so interesting. And if you listen to these or watch these lessons, you'll kind of catch him referring to a subject as actors. And I actually really love that idea. But there's so many things to kind of unpack here. I mean, you talked about safety net, and I think first and foremost, right, it's you're you are creating a conducive environment for the person that you're you're having this conversation with to open themselves up to be vulnerable.
00:13:20:21 - 00:13:53:11
Clark
Right. So so that's that's kind of that first part. Then you're working with them to kind of you're you're kind of looking for these little kernels, right? Looking for these interesting stories, looking for these kind of avenues or alleyways into their heart. And when you find one, then it's it's about helping them walk down that path to the you know, to the the real, like, good stuff there, you know, the treasure in the cave, because people often don't express themselves well, for sure.
00:13:53:11 - 00:13:53:20
Cullen
Yeah.
00:13:53:20 - 00:13:59:12
Clark
Like troubles all the time doing that. Just listen to me on this podcast now.
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Cullen
But I mean that's, that's what I mean is that like and sometimes it's I also have trouble with that, but I find that I'm much better getting it out of somebody else than I am. GO Well, sure it is self. So I think that's kind of the thing. You kind of you have a.
00:14:11:07 - 00:14:12:21
Clark
Bird's eye view, right? And sometimes you.
00:14:12:21 - 00:14:13:14
Cullen
Do have to pry.
00:14:13:22 - 00:14:35:13
Clark
It, sometimes you have to pry. And it's and again, this is like, right, this is some a lot of this is such a delicate art. It's, you know, prying versus guiding, you know, knowing where that line is. Right. We talked about being exploitive versus versus not. It's, you know, a lot of times there's going to be some gray areas.
00:14:35:13 - 00:14:54:10
Clark
And, you know, sometimes I think there is going to be there are times where you may you may see a little like glimmer off in the corner and you try to help get this person that's in front of the camera to tell their story in more detail or from a different way. And sometimes, you know, depending on what you're talking about, it could be too traumatic.
00:14:54:10 - 00:15:31:12
Clark
It could be. So you have to use good judgment and be empathetic with your subjects always. You know, at least for me. Let's talk about this. I mean, maybe maybe you've got a slightly different opinion or maybe you're here with me on this. But I think, you know, yes, your film is important, but never to the detriment of the person in front of the camera to their well-being or even to their privacy if they don't want to talk about it, if it's not something that they're comfortable talking about and you can't get them to a place of comfort with, like reasonable, appropriate, respectful means, then it just doesn't fly for me.
00:15:31:16 - 00:15:53:02
Cullen
For me, because you're going to also you're going to make that the worst thing to do is make your subject uncomfortable because you're going to have them clam up on you. Well, sure. And then I mean, I'm not saying that of course, the be all end all is at the end of the day, their mental health. So I think that coming from a point of saying that the worst thing we can lose is is you know, we don't get what we need out of them.
00:15:53:18 - 00:15:56:00
Cullen
I think there are more important matters there, but.
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Clark
There are other aspects. There is always that's what I mean.
00:15:58:23 - 00:16:04:21
Cullen
This is like pushing. I've never found that pushing somebody to answer a question is.
00:16:04:21 - 00:16:05:06
Clark
It never.
00:16:05:10 - 00:16:12:13
Cullen
Get you anywhere. It's just again, it's it's going to get them to seize up and not want to continue talking to you, frankly.
00:16:12:18 - 00:16:49:14
Clark
And I mean, the things that I've found and because I've done more of this, probably honestly, at this point in my career, I've done more of this than I have any other aspect of filmmaking, whether it was as a you know, as a gun for hire, as a videographer, working, doing interviews with people on corporate side of things, to even my own documentary films, of which I've been involved in a couple now that had a large amount of interviews and sometimes on, you know, really like sensitive, emotionally charged topics for the people that were in the film.
00:16:50:11 - 00:17:11:03
Clark
And it's, you know, some of the things that I found is, you know, like just from the beginning, like, right, just when you're when you walk into making a film and you know that you're going to be talking to people and asking them sensitive questions is to approach it from a place of total empathy and curiosity.
00:17:11:13 - 00:17:11:21
Cullen
Mm hmm.
00:17:12:05 - 00:17:32:20
Clark
And those things should take you in, obviously, to a place where you are very interested. And you are you are compassionate. Right? And so you're sitting next to your you know, because obviously. Right. You're next to the camera. They're in a conversation with you. The camera's right next to your head. And I have found I don't know, come and tell me about you.
00:17:32:20 - 00:17:55:05
Clark
But when you yourself are kind of consumed with a curiosity and an interest and you've gotten yourself to a place where you are genuinely, you know, just consumed or thrilled with with what you're talking about and with this person in front of you, you almost kind of can create this like tunnel that you sit in with them. Mm hmm.
00:17:55:12 - 00:17:59:06
Clark
And you can almost kind of even pull them into that with you by and.
00:17:59:06 - 00:18:01:20
Cullen
Make them also think like a filmmaker.
00:18:01:20 - 00:18:23:08
Clark
You're like, You know what? I'm like, You're in your face like that. You're looking right into their eyes. They're looking into your eyes. And there's all of this nuance of communication that's happening with your body language, with, you know, your active listening skills, your like you're helping you're holding their hand almost right from the other side of the camera, helping them take this journey.
00:18:23:08 - 00:18:44:02
Clark
But you're with them even though you're not on camera. I mean, at least it that's how it feels for me. Like I and as a matter of fact, I remember the first few times I did some some pretty intense interviews. I was shocked at how exotic they were. I was actually really surprised by how like, spent I was at the end of shooting.
00:18:44:03 - 00:18:46:08
Clark
I like for real. I just like.
00:18:46:09 - 00:18:56:04
Cullen
I mean, it's it's it's like it's in a way, it's a less aggressive interrogation. I mean, that's the thing is that takes a lot of brainpower.
00:18:56:04 - 00:19:19:01
Clark
I mean, in the same way, you know, the Guinness I love that Herzog uses the word actor to talk about the people in his his subjects. In the documentary film. I mean, it's like it to me, it feels so much the same as well in this way. It's like when I'm directing an actor in a narrative film, a fiction film, I get to a place where I feel like I'm right, like I'm right there with them.
00:19:19:01 - 00:19:37:15
Clark
I'm in the scene, I'm in the story. I'm sometimes even almost like one with this actor or actors. And I feel the same way with documentary films that it's it's not that there's a table and I'm on one side and they're on another, and I've got this agenda and I'm trying to get some kind of performance or something from them.
00:19:37:15 - 00:19:56:17
Clark
It's like, I am doing this with you. We're here together, and this is a journey that we're taking. And, you know, it's like sometimes it's really rocky or steep or scary or there's a ledge there, but we're here together. At least that's when I when I feel like I'm really on you know, that's the way I feel. Yeah.
00:19:56:18 - 00:20:19:00
Cullen
And I mean, exactly like I think that that's one thing I would also say, too, is like, you can be casual and I think that really helps people relax. Relax, especially when you know, when you're if you're out, you know, you mentioned something like being a videographer and that's that's another example of this perhaps is straying a bit away from interview.
00:20:19:00 - 00:20:36:12
Cullen
But if you're out on the street or if you're just getting footage of things and it's like when I was situations where you're you're at an event or you're working that way, I find that it is always so much easier to you've I've seen I think everyone's seen these cameramen that are just kind of drones that just walk around and just get shots and don't ask.
00:20:36:12 - 00:20:43:20
Cullen
People don't talk to anybody. They just literally just kind of stop around. It's so much easier to have people be comfortable around a camera when you just talk to them.
00:20:44:03 - 00:20:44:16
Clark
Yeah.
00:20:44:17 - 00:21:05:20
Cullen
And you just not if you don't have to talk to him about the camera, you don't to be like, Yeah, I'm here filming for this. Just have a conversation and get them comfortable. And it, I mean, again, I said it didn't really have much to do with injuries, but it does because you can also can you can, you know, kind of grease up these interviews by saying, you know, just having a casual conversation with the person before fresh start.
00:21:06:12 - 00:21:07:06
Clark
Absolutely.
00:21:07:06 - 00:21:08:23
Cullen
And I think that's a huge.
00:21:08:23 - 00:21:09:07
Clark
And it's.
00:21:09:07 - 00:21:11:21
Cullen
Definitely getting the people calm right and right.
00:21:11:21 - 00:21:33:22
Clark
And it's not a pre interview. Right. You want to be careful, Ali, I think and I think Herzog speaks to this. I think you agree. We've talked about this before when we worked on ours. You don't want to go into what you're going. You know what we're going to be talking about. You don't want to try to to pre-interview or start to kind of, you know, ask the same questions you're going to or, you know, try to kind of get into the conversation, get into the topic of what you actually want on camera.
00:21:34:04 - 00:21:42:05
Clark
You just like it just getting to know each other. It's just building rapport. Right. And I think that's absolutely a good thing to do.
00:21:42:05 - 00:21:59:20
Cullen
Well, I mean, I think that's a really good point of not like don't. And we're very careful with this as well. When we do a podcast, we don't we don't we don't do that for the conversation before. And there have been times when, you know, before we record, we've been getting into things and we're like, you know, okay, let's actually let's start now.
00:21:59:20 - 00:22:00:20
Clark
Because say that, yes, we're.
00:22:00:20 - 00:22:24:20
Cullen
Just talking about we're making really good points that aren't being recorded. So I think that that's a really good point, is that you can, you know, you don't want to it's for personal reasons, I think. I don't want he's like I don't want I don't want it to sound like you've said it before. And again, there's a difference between that and interviewing somebody and saying, let's take it again, because that let's take it again is about it's about the of storyteller.
00:22:25:04 - 00:22:36:02
Clark
It's about digging. It's a mining. You're right. It's not hopefully right if you're saying let's do it again, you know you're not saying just tell me the exact same story in the same way. Yeah. You're helping them refine their.
00:22:36:15 - 00:22:37:01
Cullen
Notes.
00:22:37:01 - 00:23:04:01
Clark
And, and it's like and, and like you said, I think just a little bit earlier, you talked about the example with deer and how he, you know, the first time he told this story that Herzog felt really, you know, needed to be in the film. It took him like 30 minutes and he was describing every little detail. It was, you know, 72 degrees and partially cloudy and, you know, and it's like, no, no, no, these things are relative.
00:23:04:22 - 00:23:23:09
Clark
They aren't necessary. And then so he did it again and he just like, went through it so fast that, you know, he left out all of the details that made it an intriguing story. And it was just this like skeleton of a story. And so he kind of worked with him. And so that's different. Like absolutely. That's a different thing than, well, let's just tell the same story over and over and over.
00:23:23:09 - 00:23:27:09
Clark
So we really get it polished. It sounds slick. Yeah. You know.
00:23:27:12 - 00:23:39:09
Cullen
And it's not a sales pitch and not so I mean, I guess she also mentions that about about into the Abyss where it's like that the pastor sort of said it's like he starts out sounding like this TV preacher.
00:23:39:09 - 00:23:39:20
Clark
Right.
00:23:40:04 - 00:24:01:08
Cullen
Because what is Herzog do but just get him? And I don't think I genuinely and I don't think Herzog is even alluding to saying this, that when he asked about the squirrel that he was expecting him to break down crying and open up. But but I think it was just Herzog wasn't for the one thing that was that was probably taking the pastor off guard was probably thinking he's going to ask me about death or I was going to end it.
00:24:01:08 - 00:24:20:03
Cullen
So Herzog went, okay, how do I get his guard down and kind of sank in by the flank. I'll ask about the squirrel. And because the pastor, again, like most of the time, the interviewer wants to do a good job. And I guarantee you in that instance, the pastor knew that Herzog wanted a conversation with him about you know, the emotions of doing it.
00:24:20:03 - 00:24:37:09
Cullen
And so, of course, the pastor's brain, whether subconsciously or, you know, intentionally or not, is going to go to the point of, okay, he asked me of the squirrel how do I get the squirrel back to death row? And so he goes, okay, I talk about how I almost at these squirrels. And then I pause and I sit there and I look at them for a moment.
00:24:37:09 - 00:24:39:14
Cullen
And then that's kind of what he chokes up and he says, you know.
00:24:40:09 - 00:24:44:08
Clark
Because he was having these thoughts in the moment for the first time, and.
00:24:44:08 - 00:24:45:15
Cullen
That's him making those connections.
00:24:45:15 - 00:25:04:06
Clark
Yeah, Yeah, That's a great point. It's like, you know, he's he's having this thought for the first time because I know I mean, I've done this before. You've probably done it right. It's like, say you're going for a job interview, right? And you try to think of, okay, what are all the questions they're going to ask me? And, you know, and you kind of get your answers, at least kind of partially canned, right?
00:25:04:06 - 00:25:20:12
Clark
So you're not on the spot and you're having to kind of think these up in the moment. I think that most of us are that way when we know we're going to be walking into, you know, kind of a and a stressful it's a little bit stressful, It's a little bit of anxiety. You're going to be on the spot, You're going to be in the spotlight.
00:25:21:07 - 00:25:48:15
Clark
And I think everybody kind of runs through what they're going to say in their mind. I mean, I just had to be interviewed for our local NBC affiliate out here last year. I know I did that. I was like, okay, what are they going to you know, I almost kind of practice my story. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a good interviewer will, like you said, think of these kind of, you know, if the goal is not to just throw you off guard so that you're, you know, let's say I'm going to expose this person and sometimes they do that in a job interview.
00:25:48:15 - 00:26:03:00
Clark
But you know, that's not the goal, right? That's not a goal in an interview, but it's to have the person have to be switch gears, be totally present in that moment, and really have to have to be there. And we see those wheels turning and we break.
00:26:03:00 - 00:26:03:18
Cullen
Down the walls.
00:26:03:18 - 00:26:11:11
Clark
We break down the mask that we all kind of put on. That's like, you know, our Instagram, you know, my best life kind of thing. Right?
00:26:12:05 - 00:26:28:09
Cullen
And I think I mean, that that goes back even to related to our own work experience when when we were doing the doc in California. I think that one of the things that worked out really well for us was the fact that we began the interviews and had the pretense of exploring these people's, you know, essentially what was their hobbies.
00:26:28:09 - 00:26:45:15
Cullen
Some of them did it for money, but essentially, you know, started out as a hobby and was very much a hobby of life. Yeah. And but I always found when we were talking to those people that the most interesting answers they gave were when we sort of talk to them about like, okay, what, what's your personal life like?
00:26:45:15 - 00:27:02:03
Cullen
What, what got you here? And that was something I think that they weren't really expecting. I think they were expecting conversations about the actual activity and the the idea of whether it was tarot card reading or whether it was, you know, conspiracy theories or whatever. I think that's where they were expecting us to go with the conversation.
00:27:02:07 - 00:27:20:17
Clark
Sure. And you could tell the difference, right? You can tell a real difference when somebody had you know, and this is the thing, too. It's like if you ask the same questions that everybody asks somebody, right. It's like we you know, we go through our daily life and there's kind of this like very low lying fruit of like questions that we ask everybody in our daily life.
00:27:20:17 - 00:27:43:05
Clark
And we answer them almost on autopilot, right? It's like our, you know, the little like PR representative that sits in the corner of our brain just has these answers on can. It's like that, you know, if you ask those questions and that's you're just just this low lying fruit, these questions that are aren't very engaging. They aren't very creative, they aren't very interesting.
00:27:43:19 - 00:27:51:20
Clark
They're questions that have probably been asked of this person a thousand times before. Well, you're probably going to get a canned response, you know? Yeah.
00:27:52:04 - 00:27:52:21
Cullen
No, exactly.
00:27:52:21 - 00:28:15:01
Clark
Well, and one of the things that helped to and this was really important, we were able to do this for some of our subjects and but not for others. And I think there was a good difference. Location is so important. Herzog talks about this in his lesson, and there are some great examples, and I totally agree with this location is so important.
00:28:15:01 - 00:28:33:19
Clark
It everything from it it it helps your your documentary be more cinematic. It's more interesting. Look, we don't you you don't want an hour and a half, 2 hours of talking heads in a room. That is not a film. That's not a film location. It can help with that. It's visual storytelling. PUT Well, I.
00:28:33:19 - 00:28:38:01
Cullen
Remember one of them mentioned Black Star Canyon, and we drove to Flagstaff.
00:28:38:01 - 00:28:38:18
Clark
Absolutely.
00:28:38:18 - 00:28:39:15
Cullen
Got absolutely.
00:28:39:18 - 00:29:11:12
Clark
Or the people that we interviewed in their space, in their studio. Yeah. They're surrounded by the things that make them who they are. It's it's visual storytelling. You're adding to what they're saying by being in their space and seeing how how they live like one of the in a different documentary film that I was working on, we one of the subjects was actually she was making a documentary, filming a documentary about her father, who was unfortunately in the process of dying.
00:29:11:21 - 00:29:29:11
Clark
And it was pretty intense. And she one of the things that she did to try to to cope with this was that she had a horse, that she would go into stables and she would, you know, brush this horse and clean this horse and kind of and we went with her to do this. And it was amazing how it opened her up right when she was in this.
00:29:29:22 - 00:29:41:07
Clark
I mean, it's like we were gone, you know, she this was her place. This was where she felt comfortable. And it was such an extension of her. And we got to see that there's no way we could have gotten that had we just had her in a chair, in a.
00:29:41:07 - 00:29:41:21
Cullen
Room and a.
00:29:41:21 - 00:29:58:05
Clark
Room. There's just no way. Yeah. So location is so, so key and I think so many different ways. And it's a great way to again, to, you know, a film as moving pictures, talking heads do not a film make, right? At least in my opinion.
00:29:58:06 - 00:30:02:14
Cullen
I mean, I've done I just did a documentary that has no talking heads. It's it's literally.
00:30:02:14 - 00:30:03:03
Clark
Even better.
00:30:03:03 - 00:30:09:02
Cullen
Images and people and yeah or and in my voice it's the narrator but I mean that's the thing.
00:30:09:02 - 00:30:11:23
Clark
Is now where did you do your did you do the Herzog.
00:30:12:04 - 00:30:12:23
Cullen
I actually.
00:30:13:00 - 00:30:13:06
Clark
Or were you.
00:30:13:06 - 00:30:33:11
Cullen
Just funny enough? I didn't have trouble doing the narration until I and I kept feeling like I was doing it too fast or I just didn't have the right kind of, you know, timber. Yeah. And then I did one read through of the whole thing with my Herzog impression and then just took away the accent. I did literally the exact same thing.
00:30:33:11 - 00:30:52:13
Cullen
And it is what it is in the movie today is just like I oh, that's ago when I would sort of go like, you know, many scientists predict that the final star of our universe will exist, you know? And then I just took away the accent when like anything. And yeah, it was it's funny, though. It's, it, it works so well which is exact I mean, he says that he did that for you.
00:30:52:14 - 00:30:53:20
Cullen
Yeah. What do you call it?
00:30:53:20 - 00:30:56:05
Clark
But there was one where he. I forget exactly but.
00:30:56:21 - 00:31:00:09
Cullen
The end of the world and he says that he did it from the onset of mysteries.
00:31:00:09 - 00:31:20:04
Clark
Unsolved mysteries. That's what it was. Unsolved mysteries. Yes, yes, yes. It's great. It's it sometimes helps to, you know, get you out of your head, kind of you know, remove this self-consciousness kind of thing and and kind of do that. Tried in a different voice. It's it's a it's often something that actors use.
00:31:20:04 - 00:31:20:10
Cullen
Yeah.
00:31:20:16 - 00:31:21:20
Clark
Yeah. And Jane, it.
00:31:21:20 - 00:31:51:03
Cullen
Can be difficult. I mean, I've only ever done that in my own space alone where I'm doing all the sound mixing myself. I've never I have no idea what I've done. Narration For things where other people have been there but nothing that I've been in charge of. But I mean, I think it's funny that I can't imagine. I always laugh about, you know, this is a bit of a tangent, but I always laugh about thinking about like people doing video or ADR or, you know, especially like video game voice Actors have to be in a studio doing make the sound.
00:31:51:03 - 00:32:02:14
Cullen
Now when you when you do a swing of the sword and they're like, oh, I feel like I just can't imagine the, the awkward feeling in the air of just having somebody in a booth behind you going, All right, try it again.
00:32:02:22 - 00:32:28:06
Clark
I mean, well, hey, I, you know, just to give give those guys some props, those men and women who are talent or voice actors, it is just for quick little second, just props to my. Yeah. Like some of my tribe. I have not done that myself, but I have friends. I know many people who do that and it is really, really physically and mentally demanding.
00:32:28:06 - 00:32:59:08
Clark
You know, it's it's a especially those video games. I mean the you know, nowadays with games being so story driven and so cinematic, they have, you know, thousands of pages of script and it's often you're just going kind of page by page by page, okay, you know, scream, yell, grunt, you know, just we have to do it. We have to get each line 15 different ways because depending on what the character, you know, the player chooses to do in the game, it has to have a different, you know, we have to have all these different responses.
00:32:59:08 - 00:33:00:23
Clark
It's intense, man. Yeah.
00:33:00:23 - 00:33:01:19
Cullen
And no, totally.
00:33:01:19 - 00:33:03:20
Clark
And that mocap stuff. It is.
00:33:03:20 - 00:33:04:10
Cullen
Oh, jeez.
00:33:04:16 - 00:33:17:01
Clark
Yeah, that is no joke. So not to get too far down another pass but huge props to. Yeah, my actor peeps out there who are doing motion capture and voice work and whatever medium you're doing.
00:33:17:01 - 00:33:35:08
Cullen
I mean, it is relatively related though, because I think that getting people, you know exactly what retirement, which is getting comfortable with doing that in a voice video booth or something and the awkwardness of that, it's very similar for I mean, that would be a similar experience for somebody sitting down in front of a camera for the first time and having to, you know, tell out their life story.
00:33:35:18 - 00:34:00:12
Cullen
This isn't me. But a friend of mine who was in film school had to do a documentary project in his third or fourth year. He did an interview about a girl who used to go to a middle school might the middle school that I went to. But she went there before and she was murdered while she was not on the property, but, you know, while she attended there and he did a documentary about her because it was one of those things, you know, there's a plaque out front of the school.
00:34:00:12 - 00:34:03:02
Cullen
And so he thought I passed that plaque every single day.
00:34:03:02 - 00:34:04:06
Clark
I want to know more about it.
00:34:04:06 - 00:34:17:22
Cullen
Into it. Yeah. So he went and interviewed her best friend. And she has had a really difficult life. She's, you know, had issues with addiction. She's a single mother. All these all these like, you know, just imagine kind of like the worst deck of cards.
00:34:17:22 - 00:34:18:20
Clark
Major challenges.
00:34:18:20 - 00:34:36:16
Cullen
Yeah. And so he but I remember watching it and it was it was very interesting because, you know, again, the whole idea was that, you know, he took this is perhaps a different approach, but he, you know, put the camera on record and just tried to kind of keep it out of the way and have a conversation with her as though she wasn't that wasn't even there.
00:34:36:20 - 00:34:37:06
Clark
You're right.
00:34:37:06 - 00:35:00:05
Cullen
And, you know, sometimes that can work and it just something that makes them a more comfortable to think, to not have to think about the fact that their thoughts are being recorded and that they're being, you know, videoed. Right. That they're just kind of having a conversation and telling a story to a person. I think the other thing, too, though, is and this is also something that Herzog says about when he was interviewing the as the mortician.
00:35:01:05 - 00:35:14:12
Cullen
Right. And he saying, man, you know, I don't have that here. Yeah. Cause I don't want to turn the corner. Sorry. He goes, I don't want to hear it like you're on the stand like that. You're giving me a testimony I want to hear. You know, I do want to hear how it felt.
00:35:14:12 - 00:35:15:01
Clark
And, like.
00:35:15:02 - 00:35:36:09
Cullen
I don't need to be official. Yeah, which is funny, because that movie, I would say that that coroner in that movie is a funny character because he almost he almost says everything kind of like a sales pitch. It's kind of strange. So it was more difficult to kind of break that shell for him because he is so used to that line of work and not only that line of work, but having to talk about it.
00:35:36:09 - 00:35:41:08
Cullen
I mean, of course, the job as a coroner isn't only to examine dead bodies, but to give reports on those.
00:35:41:08 - 00:35:49:12
Clark
Dead bodies and to say, I mean, it could be, you know, chicken or the egg. It could be that that's that's his personality. And that's part of why he chose that career. Beat him.
00:35:50:00 - 00:36:03:01
Cullen
That's what I mean in that in that it can be you know you can be very difficult to break people out of that. And I think. Herzog did you know, I've never seen the footage. Of course, I don't think anybody has before, he said. But I'd love he said that.
00:36:03:01 - 00:36:03:12
Clark
Would be so.
00:36:03:12 - 00:36:24:04
Cullen
Breaking out of that shell. So I don't know what the change was, but you can tell, you know, sometimes you'll be dealing with somebody and interviewing somebody who just has a certain, you know, way of speaking that may not fit exactly what you want. But again, just like working with actors in a movie, you just kind of have to roll with it and make the best out of what you're given, because you can't obviously recast an interview subject.
00:36:24:04 - 00:36:24:10
Cullen
So.
00:36:24:16 - 00:36:48:05
Clark
Right. Well, I you know, it's interesting. So, you know, kind of we're going down a lot of different kind of tangents here. I think they're all really related, you know, at the same the other side of this coin. So I just was complimentary for actors. One of the challenges I've had was actually with actors, and I think it's speaks to a problem that can occur, though, with anybody that you're interviewing.
00:36:48:05 - 00:37:19:23
Clark
I happened to notice that interestingly enough, this happened more frequently with actors than with other walks of life, people in other walks of life. But, you know, this this veneer we've mentioned this a few times. I've called a mask or a wall, but just this desire to kind of control the way that you're appearing, the way that you're controlling, you know, you're trying to control the experience basically in a nutshell, as the subject, instead of allowing the experience to just occur to you.
00:37:20:16 - 00:37:50:16
Clark
And it's funny, it's this is just an interesting irony. But of course, you know, an actor's job is not to control their performance, but but to allow the event, the circumstances, the script to occur to you. Right. But it's so strange as that in my experience And I've interviewed a lot of people and I've interviewed a lot of actors, actors seem to have, more often than average, a more difficult time letting go and not trying to control an interview.
00:37:51:02 - 00:37:51:20
Cullen
Well, that makes sense.
00:37:51:20 - 00:38:16:20
Clark
It's an interesting little piece of trivia. But, you know, one of the things that I you know, we've talked about a handful of things, being curious, being empathetic, using your location, small crews trying to make the gear and the camera non obtrusive. You know, another thing I think is so huge, just from a philosophical perspective, is to to not sit in judgment of your subject.
00:38:17:01 - 00:38:17:08
Cullen
Yeah.
00:38:18:00 - 00:38:40:22
Clark
It's so vital. It is so much of what we've spoken to is, is a challenge that we're trying to break down. When you've got a person sitting across the table next to you and they're on camera, is the fear of judgment. Yeah. And we all and mean look, we all experience this all the time. I think it's one of the most like, profound challenges that we all face as humans.
00:38:40:22 - 00:39:01:18
Clark
It's such an integral part of our experience that the fear of being rejected, the fear of being critiqued, the fear of being wrong, the fear of being embarrassed. These all come from the same place and the everything you can do to bring yourself genuinely, because you can not fake this, you can't fake it. People are too attuned to this.
00:39:02:08 - 00:39:03:08
Clark
If you can really bring.
00:39:03:08 - 00:39:04:04
Cullen
It will really stand.
00:39:04:04 - 00:39:19:04
Clark
Out. If you really bring yourself to a place of acceptance. Now, it doesn't mean that you know, and Herzog talks about this. It's, you know, when he was into the abyss and he's interviewing this murderer, he's not saying, look, I you know, I think you're innocent. Or I you know, I think that it's good that you did this.
00:39:19:04 - 00:39:49:17
Clark
He's not condoning this obviously horrific behavior, but he's like, but you're still a human being and I still see you as a human being. And I know that you're not just some demon. You're not all bad. I know you're a human being and I'm a human being. And so I think when we can bring ourselves to a place where we're not sitting in judgment of our subjects, even if I mean, if we think their ideas are kooky or ridiculous or whatever.
00:39:50:13 - 00:40:07:16
Clark
And look, we've interviewed some people, Colin, where I did, you know, my initial kneejerk reaction was to think that now. But but when you sit down in that chair, you have whatever it is you've got to do, do it. You can't come from a place of judgment or you're going to shut down again because we're not. JOURNALIST Right.
00:40:07:22 - 00:40:15:08
Clark
You're not sitting there like, you know, trying to pick somebody apart to get to some kind of, you know, it's not what we're doing as filmmakers.
00:40:16:08 - 00:40:16:14
Cullen
Yeah.
00:40:16:19 - 00:40:23:06
Clark
Now, other people may disagree, and I have definitely seen I mean, interviewers pick the hell out of their subject, but I.
00:40:23:06 - 00:40:43:21
Cullen
Have friends who consider documentary to be an extension. More of news than film. And I agree with that. But I know there are people who do their art that way. I also I want to go back to to what I described earlier, and it's related to what you were just saying where I kind of jokingly mentioned the idea that it's like a less aggressive interrogation.
00:40:44:06 - 00:40:44:11
Clark
Yeah.
00:40:44:11 - 00:41:04:20
Cullen
And I want to specify, too, that what I mean, if you want a really great masterclass on interviewing somebody, I can't know what the YouTube channel is called, but there's this YouTube channel that literally just puts up interrogations from, you know, very famous, you know, the recordings of interrogations from very famous murders, you know, Oh, my God.
00:41:04:22 - 00:41:06:02
Clark
Like actual real like.
00:41:06:07 - 00:41:29:17
Cullen
Real or real interrogation footage. And there's one that I want to specify that is it was a case up here where a military general had murdered a woman. He was he was he had raped like dozens of women and was never caught and then went on to murder one. And that's how he was caught. But the most thing is that you can watch the entire interrogation.
00:41:30:02 - 00:41:50:22
Cullen
He was not under arrest. He was brought in for questioning under the guise of removing him as a suspect. And if you watch the interview of his is he's interrogation and it's just one cop in there with them just talking to him. And he goes from at the beginning, just having a casual conversation about, you know, yeah, we're just trying to, like, remove names from our list by the law.
00:41:50:22 - 00:42:01:12
Cullen
Right. To literally by the end of this hour and a half interview, getting the guy to pinpoint the location of the body on a map. He's never aggressive, he's never judgmental. He's never sitting there going like.
00:42:01:12 - 00:42:02:02
Clark
Oh, my God.
00:42:02:03 - 00:42:12:22
Cullen
This son of a bitch, you are for doing this. He is literally yeah, it is a master class. Wow. Because the cop just has a conversation with them and just like, slowly by bit by bit gets him to to both.
00:42:12:22 - 00:42:14:23
Clark
That is certainly interesting. And it's.
00:42:14:23 - 00:42:18:23
Cullen
I would say, yeah, just go watch it because it is an incredible again it's it's like what do.
00:42:18:23 - 00:42:21:23
Clark
You think we can search on? Can we find this? I mean, you.
00:42:21:23 - 00:42:23:00
Cullen
Find the name.
00:42:23:00 - 00:42:27:10
Clark
I'm so intrigued by this that I'm almost willing to just talk about something else here while you.
00:42:27:22 - 00:42:57:23
Cullen
Try to look. So it's Russell Williams. Russell Williams was the the murderer. He was the he was a general in the gay army. But if you search up on on YouTube to search of Russell Williams like interrogate, interview or interrogation know it'll come up. But again it's and I think like that's kind of the reason why I said you know it's like a less of an aggressive interrogation because I think that just as in filmmaking, it is more often than not the lesson in aggressive interrogation is that get the suspect confess in the policing.
00:42:58:02 - 00:43:08:20
Cullen
And it's the same thing with, you know, you can call it torture, you can call it enhanced interrogation whenever you like, when those things occur, when you are so aggressive with the person trying to get things out, you will more often not just get lies. You.
00:43:08:21 - 00:43:12:20
Clark
Well, let let's just say for the record, please do not torture.
00:43:13:03 - 00:43:13:07
Cullen
Or.
00:43:13:16 - 00:43:15:18
Clark
Waterboard like please no.
00:43:15:18 - 00:43:20:16
Cullen
Without their consent. Without their consent. Without their consent, unless you get them to sign an NDA and all that, you know.
00:43:21:06 - 00:43:23:11
Clark
Oh my gosh. Yeah. But I just want.
00:43:23:11 - 00:43:43:08
Cullen
To say that it is, you know, it's people like to compartmentalize things and sort of go, you know, that may work for for policing, but that doesn't work for filmmaking. But really, it's not about versus policing. It's about human psychology. And it's about it's about, you know, being able to and again, break down people's guards.
00:43:43:08 - 00:44:08:13
Clark
Yeah. And interested. You know, obviously it's like as we always approach these podcast as, you know, every time we we step to the mic and we talk about filmmaking for a while, this is always just our opinions and we're always in the process of learning ourselves. And that's exactly what this podcast is about. It's this is an extension of our learning process doing this.
00:44:08:13 - 00:44:28:08
Clark
So I never speak from a place of like, well, I know, you know, categorically that A works and B doesn't or this or that. I would be so interested to to kind of learn a little bit of more about, you know, what the differences might be. It's like you use this interrogation as example. I would be curious to know we can just use this as a thought experiment.
00:44:29:00 - 00:44:53:15
Clark
I'm I'm assuming that that interrogator thought that this person was the murderer, although they didn't let the the suspect know that that that was they had an intention. They walked in with a very, very, very specific intention, which was I'm going to take this person and walk them through this hour and a half long, you know, interaction. And at the end of it, I'm getting the confession.
00:44:53:16 - 00:45:25:00
Clark
That's my goal. They they went into it with the goal. I'm getting this confession and so very specific and I you know, as approach is opposed to approaching somebody even with the same external tactics but approaching a subject not with this like very specific, very defined end goal, but a much more open ended goal. Yeah, it'd just be interesting to kind of see, you know, it's definitely some fun things to play around with as you're experimenting as a filmmaker to try these different techniques and then look at the.
00:45:25:00 - 00:45:57:21
Cullen
End of the day to everyone's had conversations with people, you know, you've all had those Thanksgiving dinner table conversations with perhaps a family member that you're not quite close with, but that you that you get into learning more about them. And it's identical. I mean, you just have to approach these conversations in a very similar to those because that's the thing it should be again, to go back to kind of I guess the whole really theme of this episode is that it is it's not a journalist, it's you're not a journalist trying to interview or pry, you know, a story out of someone.
00:45:57:21 - 00:46:24:02
Cullen
You're trying to have a two way conversation. Yeah. And of course, you want you know, you don't want to be as the person who is, you know, asking the questions to be talking more than the person who is answering them. Well, and, you know, there is a balance you can strike where I've found that more often than not, the most successful interviews that I have or the most successful conversations I have with with people in documentaries that either I'm doing or that I'm just being the there for for support or something.
00:46:24:22 - 00:46:32:11
Cullen
Our conversations were, you know, I do spend a good chunk of time talking, Yeah, I am quite, you know.
00:46:32:18 - 00:46:33:02
Clark
Yeah.
00:46:33:04 - 00:46:34:11
Cullen
You're in are part of that.
00:46:34:11 - 00:47:02:16
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. You're an active part of that. Well I have to I you know, this probably should go you know it's an understood but I have had to remind myself of this in the past, you know as an active participant in this conversation, sometimes, you know, providing 50, 60% of the conversation, just one little like small reminder, small piece of logistical, be really, really careful that you're not speaking over your person, that you're that you're talking to.
00:47:03:11 - 00:47:24:16
Clark
And I have an especial challenge with that. I get excited you guys out there and Cullen you know, I can get excited. I get kind of passionate what I'm about, what I'm speaking to some points and I want to like jump in and say something. You know, it's so I have to remind don't just don't cut in. Don't cut off.
00:47:24:16 - 00:47:52:17
Clark
And and another thing I've learned that's worked well for me. Coen I don't know if you've done much of this or not, but often too, what I will do is just allow dead air. Yeah, there's like kind of I think all of us kind of have this instinct, sort of to kind of fill awkward space with words. So, you know, let's say you've asked a question or, you know, you're kind of having a back and forth and your subject, it seems that they're done speaking right.
00:47:52:17 - 00:48:01:10
Clark
They've told their story or they're kind of they seem to be at the end of a thought, Well, your inclination is immediately, okay, I don't want that awkward space. I mean, this is conscious, but still it.
00:48:01:10 - 00:48:02:04
Cullen
And I've got a feeling.
00:48:02:04 - 00:48:17:16
Clark
It happens so subconsciously that it's just an instantaneous desire to speak. Right. You just go right into asking the next question. I mean, some of the most interesting things that I've captured on camera occurred when I refrained from doing that and just sat there and stared at them.
00:48:18:02 - 00:48:34:04
Cullen
Yeah, it's that and what's really interesting, what you're saying too, is again, that that also is a technique in interrogation, which is to to let the person sit and because then if you're not going to if you don't have to talk, they are going to want to fill in.
00:48:34:04 - 00:48:34:19
Clark
They feel that.
00:48:35:00 - 00:48:49:04
Cullen
And they're they're going to start going off of adrenaline, of going, I don't want it to be awkward. So I'm just going start saying things. I'm just going to start filling in that space and it can be super, super helpful. And perhaps maybe this is just because I went to you know, I did criminology in university. That's what I went for.
00:48:49:04 - 00:48:49:16
Clark
But no.
00:48:49:20 - 00:49:12:06
Cullen
Yeah, there's again, there's this super, you know, legitimate point of, of let that person spill the beans themselves. Yeah. The point that you want to get to is that where they are self-sustaining, where you no longer have to ask questions or they can discuss and you know, and that's such, that's lightning in a bottle. That's not going to happen with every subject.
00:49:12:06 - 00:49:29:13
Cullen
It's not going to happen with every, you know, every interview you ever do. But I think that that when it does happen, it can be great when you can just get you can also have times where people will intentionally, as you said, steer the conversation into a point that is beneficial for them and very much actively try to use this idea.
00:49:29:13 - 00:49:48:00
Cullen
I mean, you think about the the Frost Nixon interview, which is a journalist, of course, going after and I mean the interview, not the Ron Howard movie, right? If watch that. It's very clear that that Nixon then was trying to steer the conversation and was very much a master of steering conversations. Yeah. And so you have to be careful of that too.
00:49:48:00 - 00:50:07:23
Cullen
You can't of course, you have to maintain a power balance, but there's a point where you can almost catch the person off guard and get them to just basically spill all, which can be very good, of course, in a healthy way. But. Right. But, you know, it can be really, really great when that happens and again and be really rewarding and you can get some great stuff for sure.
00:50:07:23 - 00:50:29:03
Clark
And I would you know, and I would say sometimes, too, and I've been surprised by this, and I don't know that I was fully aware of it when I was in the interview. But after I got home and I looked at the footage, I was kind of surprised that people will tell you a lot by how they hide as well.
00:50:29:04 - 00:50:50:12
Clark
Yes. Yeah. And sometimes you can get some pretty interesting stuff by, you know, because the camera is just there is something about the you know, the lens. It just it's like, I don't know, but I feel like it's sometimes it sees things that I and I'm right there. You know, I'm right there next to the camera. I'm staring at these people.
00:50:50:12 - 00:51:18:06
Clark
I'm in this conversation. But somehow sometimes I go back and I see things. The camera saw things that I just didn't quite get right there at the time. But I see I've had some really interesting stuff come out with how a person where you can and of course, this is sometimes, you know, the way editing can help with this and everything, but the person reveals so much by about by like what they hide and what they cover up or where they're afraid to go, where they won't go.
00:51:18:10 - 00:51:38:03
Clark
So sometimes there's that too, you know, sometimes that can be just as helpful as some kind of open confession, so to speak. You know, sometimes where a person is completely guarded and boarded up showing that could potentially be an integral part of your story, depending on the story that you're trying to tell. Right.
00:51:38:23 - 00:51:53:11
Cullen
And perhaps just before we wrap up, too, I just and maybe I should've said this beginning because it is kind of a pre interview thing, but I've always found a really great way to get people relaxed in a setting where perhaps they're camera shy and.
00:51:53:12 - 00:51:54:05
Clark
Nice with and.
00:51:54:10 - 00:51:55:09
Cullen
Again, a smile that.
00:51:55:09 - 00:51:55:23
Clark
I just could.
00:51:57:03 - 00:52:12:04
Cullen
Get. But make sure you make sure you, you, you don't let them know it's whiskey. You hand them, you know a water bottle and say it's water, but especially with bigger cameras and bigger crews and stuff like that. What I've always found helps is setting everything up.
00:52:12:12 - 00:52:12:19
Clark
Yeah.
00:52:12:22 - 00:52:31:08
Cullen
And just taking like 15 minutes, just chatting with the person while everything is set up with them in the chair. Not but not being in the chair myself, kind of, you know, going and sitting beside them. If there's a couch and kind of conversation and pretending. And Herzog says that he does this in his narrative, he doesn't really mention in his documentary thing.
00:52:31:08 - 00:52:57:03
Cullen
But, you know, again, almost buying time for them to calm down and pretending that there's more to do. So telling, you know, a crew member, okay, actually, we've just got to fix that light over there or something. And then you sit there and you will be already in about 15 minutes. But, you know, let's just have a conversation and it can really relax because that way they're already talking to you in a setting where everything is set up, where the lights are on, where the camera's sitting there, but they don't feel like they're being interviewed yet.
00:52:57:03 - 00:53:13:14
Cullen
So they are used to, you know, they're talking and they're getting used to all that set up. And then when it begins, then you go and you take the seat beside the camera and you say, okay, now you know what it's like to talking for the camera. Of course, you don't actually say that to them. But I thought the back of my head is they've they've now gotten used to talking with this setup.
00:53:14:03 - 00:53:24:11
Cullen
Yeah. Now they can and it always, you know, every time I've done it it has worked really well to make them just really, really fall into that place of being comfortable with, you know, camera and lights on them and stuff.
00:53:24:11 - 00:53:25:21
Clark
Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:53:25:21 - 00:53:26:19
Cullen
Can be really valuable.
00:53:26:22 - 00:53:46:17
Clark
And, you know, we have it talked a ton about this, too. And we're right. We're just about at the end here. But I think this is worth mentioning and Herzog mentions this actually in the second lesson that we're covering in 21 today about, you know, we've talked a lot about the emotions of the subject, but we've not really talked about as a filmmaker what to do with your emotions.
00:53:47:03 - 00:54:14:14
Clark
And I think this is really important. And Herzog does speak to it. He talks about managing his emotions. He's talked about where, you know, he's been filming something. And it's he has it's been you know, sometimes it really becomes a challenge to maintain a level of professionalism or a certain level of objectivity, even though what you're doing, you know, this moment that you're sitting in is so profoundly emotional and.
00:54:14:14 - 00:54:38:23
Clark
I think it's important to mention that, you know, the goal is not to be cold to your subjects. I mean, not at all. Not at all. I think it is your goal as a filmmaker to empathize deeply with your subject. But you've got you're not you know, you're still a filmmaker, right? You haven't like, you know, taken off your filmmaker hat and put on a friend or, you know, confidant hat.
00:54:39:00 - 00:54:59:05
Clark
And now, you know, you're or if or especially in this, you've got to be careful about you haven't put on a therapy hat. You know, you're not a friend, you're not a confidant, you're not a therapist. You're definitely not a therapist. You're a film maker. And it's you know, as with all things with art, there is no concrete in writing specific line.
00:54:59:05 - 00:55:17:02
Clark
We all have to find this for ourselves and it's always situation specific, but you do need to be cognizant of that. Sometimes you're going to, you know, hopefully you're there and you're being pulled in emotionally, but you've always got to have that part of you that I'm a filmmaker, I'm a professional, and I'm here to make a film.
00:55:17:11 - 00:55:20:13
Clark
And so that that was like important to speak to. I don't know if you've ever had well, I mean.
00:55:20:18 - 00:55:28:19
Cullen
He does say in the thing, too, is he mentions that, you know, a surgeon shouldn't do surgery on their their child kind of thing.
00:55:28:19 - 00:55:37:17
Clark
Right. Well, and not not only should they not, but they they can't. I at least here in this country, there are definite laws around those kinds of things and for good reason.
00:55:37:17 - 00:55:52:14
Cullen
So, I mean, that's yeah, that's a good point is kind of not necessarily building a wall, but making sure that you have infrastructure in your brain so that you don't fall into a trap of just losing that professionalism and losing that that right angle to what you're you're here to do.
00:55:52:21 - 00:56:33:02
Clark
The objective. It is important. Yeah. And it's and sometimes it's but it doesn't they're not mutually exclusive. Being empathetic, being present with somebody, but also maintaining a healthy objectivity. Those aren't mutually exclusive things. They can be done. And it's something that, you know, you can practice and each one of us has to kind of find our way through it just as with, you know, almost everything, which is what the this is the cool thing about filmmaking and art in general, right, is that it's we all have to kind of find our own ways, even though there are some some guidelines and some signposts and some advice and subjective suggestions and examples from other people like
00:56:33:02 - 00:56:56:02
Clark
Herzog himself, ultimately it's a path we all must find and travel on our own. So. So speaking of that, the next stop on our path, who did you like that Segway? Wasn't that amazing? Kona so good at this. So let's see. So our next lesson, what are we going to cover next week? It looks like next week we're going to be on to lesson 22.
00:56:56:08 - 00:57:01:14
Clark
So I can't believe it. We're like three or four lessons away from from covering.
00:57:01:14 - 00:57:02:11
Cullen
Wrapping the whole.
00:57:02:11 - 00:57:12:19
Clark
Thing and wrapping the entire Master Herzog masterclass in its entirety, which I'm so excited about, because that means we get to jump to something new.
00:57:12:21 - 00:57:19:01
Cullen
Yeah, And that's something new is going to be children's entertainment. We're going to be talking all about Barney the Dinosaur, and that's what our podcast is basically.
00:57:20:06 - 00:57:23:18
Clark
All right. And we just saw all of the subscribers.
00:57:23:18 - 00:57:24:15
Cullen
Drop that for us.
00:57:25:18 - 00:57:45:07
Clark
No, but we but we are going to continue. We aren't going to end the podcast when we're done with. I think there are 26 lessons, if you count the postscript, we're not going to end there. We are going to continue we and we've got some cool things in the waiting in the wings and we can talk about that as we get closer.
00:57:45:14 - 00:58:02:22
Clark
But yeah, we're definitely going to continue and there's some exciting stuff coming up. But yeah, so lesson 22 is an extension of I think all of you know, the things that we've talked about here. It's still documentary filmmaking. It's called dealing with human beings and I think in this one we're going to talk a little bit more about ethics as well.
00:58:02:23 - 00:58:17:15
Clark
It's respecting ethical boundaries and how to get to the heart of person. So it's very much an extension of one, but that's going to be next week. So until then, everybody, as always, thanks for listening, Colin. Thanks so much for hanging out and have a.
00:58:17:15 - 00:58:18:03
Cullen
Lot of fun.
00:58:18:11 - 00:58:22:06
Clark
Conversation with me. We'll see you guys all next time.
00:58:22:09 - 00:58:31:01
Cullen
Yeah, see you guys.