Clark
Hello and welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I'm Clark Coffey. And with me as always, Cullen McFater. What's up, Cullen?
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Cullen
Hello. Hello. Hi.
00:00:23:00 - 00:00:48:07
Clark
How much are you doing? All right, man, I'm. I'm excited to continue on with documentary filmmaking. We've got less than 22 in less than 23 that we are covering today, which is a continuation basically, of last week's two lessons, which is documentary filmmaking, dealing with human beings and truth in nonfiction. So yeah, I'm pretty excited, man.
00:00:48:08 - 00:00:57:22
Cullen
But yeah, I mean, a good way to describe this one, I suppose, is just that it's kind of honing in on that, you know, the interactions and the, the rapport that you can have with somebody, especially.
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Clark
Absolutely.
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Cullen
Importantly for us when when things aren't necessarily maybe the most amicable of of search situations. Right. Interviewing.
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Clark
So what was that word again, though?
00:01:08:01 - 00:01:08:16
Cullen
Amicable.
00:01:08:23 - 00:01:09:20
Clark
I do that all the time.
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Cullen
I think I kind of.
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Clark
It's okay.
00:01:12:20 - 00:01:13:04
Cullen
Out there.
00:01:13:04 - 00:01:14:05
Clark
First. It's okay.
00:01:14:05 - 00:01:17:03
Cullen
I just wait till we get out again. Wait till we get our whiskey up.
00:01:17:03 - 00:01:27:11
Clark
I know. Wait till we get the whiskey episode. Right. Like my wife is always, like, making fun of me because I will mix words up or I will, you know, I'll make up my own pronunciations at some point. I mean.
00:01:27:19 - 00:01:30:14
Cullen
It's. It's fun. It's good. It's choppy English.
00:01:30:16 - 00:01:51:07
Clark
We're taking some poetic license here, so. AUDIENCE You know, just remember that if you ever hear an interesting pronunciation of any word, it's. We know, we know, but we're just taking our poetic license with it. And, you know, we're going to talk about the truth not being in the facts. So we're just extending this to words and syntax.
00:01:51:07 - 00:02:00:12
Clark
And, you know, it's right. It's it's we're taking our poetic license here. But but anyway, well, I'm glad you're doing well. You said it was hailing up there. That's.
00:02:00:21 - 00:02:02:03
Cullen
Yeah, for a little bit. It was.
00:02:02:03 - 00:02:20:16
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's about you know, we do our little lake, right? We've got our weather thing going on. I think it's probably in like the low sixties here. Quite a bit of haze I can't quite see out to Catalina Island. It's a little hazy but otherwise quite nice. We've got COVID is, is running rampant out here, which is sad.
00:02:20:16 - 00:03:01:19
Clark
So this is nice to have something to do here as I'm stuck in my home so thoroughly excited to jump right into this. So I guess let's do so. So Herzog starts right off the bat in less than 20 to talking about respecting ethical boundaries. And I think that's a great place to start because it kind of, you know, that's going to impact everything else you do right when you're making a documentary film where you're interacting with like other life human beings, with emotions and desires and a life and but he immediately points out that there aren't any clear rules that you have to find these these ethical boundaries or borders for yourself.
00:03:02:06 - 00:03:23:08
Clark
And it's a tough one. And I and I think that that's you know, obviously there are there are some there are some some major guidelines that are pretty simple. But oftentimes, I think, you know, you'll find yourself, if you interview enough people, if you're stepping into the life of enough people, you're going to find that there are a lot of little gray areas that might be challenging.
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Clark
And I don't know if that you can't.
00:03:24:13 - 00:03:25:22
Cullen
Just rely on common sense.
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Clark
And, you know, it's really interesting, but you can't I mean, sometimes you really do have to give it a lot of thought. And, you know, it just is an example, kind of, you know, a little one. One of the documentary films that I'm in the middle of working on, it seems like I'm always in the middle of working on one, but I promise I will wrap some of these.
00:03:45:07 - 00:03:46:20
Clark
But, you know, one of the documents.
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Cullen
Okay, We all we.
00:03:47:16 - 00:04:11:21
Clark
All have those. Yeah. I mean, hey, even you and I have one that we've been working on now for, like, what, a year? A year and a half. So. But, you know, it just it's, it's sometimes a question of, you know, how far do you step into somebody's life? How do you do so without being exploitive? And, you know, I've seen examples where I really felt uncomfortable and I couldn't even quite put my finger on why.
00:04:12:09 - 00:04:35:13
Clark
But there was something about an interview. There was something about the way a filmmaker was handling a subject where it wasn't clear, right? It wasn't like they were clearly insulting or belittling or trying to show in some kind of negative light. But there was some kind of like this this difficult and sometimes challenging to defined exploitive thing I felt like was was going on and you and I were like.
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Cullen
What's what's also really key to point out, too, is that exploitation doesn't have to be intentional. You know, it.
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Clark
Can it can be.
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Cullen
You could be interviewing somebody and just not even realizing that through, you know, whether it's a, you know, a point of privilege or something. Absolutely. You can just you can truly accidentally exploit.
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Clark
You can, you know, subject.
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Cullen
And so that people.
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Clark
And that's what makes this such a, you know, a compelling issue, I think, and sometimes a challenging one is that it's not always obvious. I think a lot of times we think that it is, but it's not it is not always obvious. And like you said, and that's a really great point, sometimes it's on accident and you don't realize it.
00:05:13:01 - 00:05:30:13
Clark
So, you know, I think it's we all have to. And Herzog's right. I mean, I don't even know how to get much more specific into it. We do have to find our own way through that. We do have to find and to find our own boundaries. Experience is probably a good teacher and I think you've got to be like you just said.
00:05:30:13 - 00:05:50:13
Clark
I think if you find yourself where you've you've shot some footage and you're sitting and sitting in your editing bay and either you or or one of your fellow filmmakers or even somebody else that you're showing the footage to, if it starts to get the sense that it doesn't feel right, you probably have to be willing, I think, to abandon that and try a new tact.
00:05:50:13 - 00:06:07:19
Clark
But it's a it's a continual learning process. It's something that I've definitely found I refine I mean, obviously, like just as human beings, not as just filmmakers, but you know, hopefully you're constantly refining and improving upon your own ethical, like internal guidebook, if you will, right?
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Cullen
Mm hmm. And this is something I always say in regards to narrative film, and it's usually regarding, you know, effects choices or specific, you know, whether it's a cinematography choice. But I usually say, you know, if your effect is going to be distracting for the audience, no matter what the intention is and what the desired outcome is, it's probably just better to scrap it.
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Cullen
And I think the same kind of applies here where it's if you are interviewing somebody and they give you juicy, juicy details and it's like, fantastic interview. Oh, it.
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Clark
It's so.
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Cullen
Tempting. Feels exploitative.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
The audience is just going to be distracted by that and you're not going to get, you know, the desired reaction of sympathy or empathy or whatever from the audience that you that you want, because they're just going to be thinking about like, Jesus, this director really.
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Clark
Right. You know, was not aware.
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Cullen
He just exploited, you know, for lack of a better term, exploited this.
00:07:00:05 - 00:07:39:23
Clark
And maybe, you know, it's difficult to land on. You know, I because I would never pretend to be, you know, an ethics expert, you know, only in my own life have I spent time, you know, trying to work towards a framework that I feel like is a good one. So I'm not somebody who studied this forever. But I mean, one of the tools that I found are very helpful is, is to elicit the opinion of others, especially if your subject happens to be someone that comes from a completely different place than you, whether that's gender or race or religion or anything like that, to actually, you know, elicit the feedback of someone from that group
00:07:40:19 - 00:07:51:17
Clark
that you're interviewing and and get their thoughts on it. Somebody who has a closer perspective or life experience than you do to the subject. And that can often be helpful, I think.
00:07:52:17 - 00:08:35:20
Cullen
Mm hmm. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you use, you know, pull out all the stops and use whatever you can to and I, you know, especially when you're dealing with documentary, which is real people, real situations. And yeah, just, just make sure you go like triple check and, you know, dot the I's and cross the T's and stuff like that to make sure that you are, you know, justifying the use of anything because I because that's again, that's kind of the same goes for narrative that deal with true stories and things like that or if it's like a biopic or you know, based on a factual event, the worst thing you can do is misrepresent or
00:08:36:04 - 00:08:48:13
Cullen
again, you know, we keep come back to that word exploited, exploitive, or you don't want to wind up with that because, again, you know, no matter how good the movie is, in the end, people are just going to remember it for that.
00:08:48:13 - 00:09:08:11
Clark
And if that's and there's a great example actually in this lesson that Herzog shares of his film Grizzly Man and this and there's there's a couple of points here that I think are really interesting to make with this example. So for all of those for those of you who might not have seen it, there is a scene there in the or whether you have I'll just point to the scene no matter what.
00:09:08:16 - 00:09:27:02
Clark
So you know what I'm talking about. But there's a scene in the film where Herzog is sitting across the table from this woman he's interviewing, and she has a recording of an audio recording of and I'm going to forget who was the grizzly, what grizzly man's name was. What do you remember that.
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Cullen
Timothy Treadwell.
00:09:28:06 - 00:09:39:00
Clark
Treadwell's unfortunate death killing by this bear. That's hopefully I'm not spoilers there for the documentary Grizzly Man.
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Cullen
But for the most sadly.
00:09:42:10 - 00:09:50:13
Clark
Sadly, this man was was killed by a bear. And this is an audio recording of his unfortunate killing. And, you know.
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Cullen
Herzog and his girlfriend's right?
00:09:52:12 - 00:10:01:01
Clark
And that's correct. Right. Not just him. And so here we have an audio recording of two people being killed. Now, Herzog talks a.
00:10:01:01 - 00:10:02:12
Cullen
Very vicious, brutal way.
00:10:03:02 - 00:10:25:00
Clark
Right. Which yes, very I can hardly think of a more vicious way. It's pretty gruesome even to imagine it. But that's kind of part of this point I'm making. So so he's you know, and he refuses to play the audio, even the audio. So we're not even talking about video, which would obviously be, you know, extremely exploitive. But he's not even willing to play into the audio.
00:10:25:09 - 00:10:41:16
Clark
And, you know, he says that he was pushed by his producers. He was pushed by the network that was going to air it because, I mean. Right. This is sensationalism. This is like juicy, right? They want ratings. They want controversy to an extent. They want public, you know, publicity, Herzog says. I'm not going there. I'm not doing that.
00:10:41:21 - 00:11:02:08
Clark
And what we have in the scene instead is this extraordinarily effective filmmaking going on, where we see Herzog listening as one of the rare occasions where Herzog is actually in frame during one of his, you know, films. I mean, we always hear his narration, right? We always hear his voice. But he is almost never in frame himself. He's actually in frame.
00:11:02:08 - 00:11:22:19
Clark
You can see he's listening to this, but you can't see his face. What we see instead is the face of this woman. And she's watching his face react to the to the sound, which she's never listened to, by the way. She's never listened to that. Yeah. And so we see through her face her reaction to Herzog's face. And it's.
00:11:22:19 - 00:11:24:03
Cullen
So powerless. He listens.
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Clark
In and.
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Cullen
I'm wrong. She is, I believe, Treadwell's ex-girlfriend.
00:11:29:22 - 00:11:32:00
Clark
You know, that could be. She is someone who's.
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Cullen
Something.
00:11:32:10 - 00:11:33:09
Clark
Close to yet.
00:11:33:12 - 00:11:38:04
Cullen
Yeah, Maybe you believe that she was his, but I believe she was his ex-girlfriend who remained close to him.
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Clark
Right. So definitely.
00:11:39:15 - 00:11:45:02
Cullen
Of course not the girlfriend who died in the right tape, but so close. You know, it it's it's a powerful moment.
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Clark
And that's that's.
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Cullen
What we we describe it, too, which is like it's the same principle as like don't show the shark. Right. I don't mean to kind of trivialize a real event like that to a point like filmmaking techniques. But what it is, it is it winds up being more powerful.
00:12:02:00 - 00:12:21:20
Clark
It's more powerful just like it. Forget the ethics. Right. Which I'm certainly not suggesting you do. But what I'm saying is that I think more often not if you push yourself to have a higher ethical standard in your filmmaking, you will actually be pushing yourself to just be flat out period, making a better film. So it's not like you're losing something, right?
00:12:22:12 - 00:12:40:22
Clark
You and I were talking about, you know, some some of the I had an example. I you and I were sharing some YouTube videos of this filmmaker who were doing interviews. And some of these subjects. The interviews were people in some pretty dire situations with poverty, drug addiction, or.
00:12:40:22 - 00:12:42:00
Cullen
Homeless prostitute.
00:12:42:00 - 00:13:08:06
Clark
Homelessness and prostitution. And and I was you know, because I'm always trying to kind of refine this. And I had seen some of this footage and it's very well done. It's very well shot. But there was something about it that really did not feel right to me. And and it made it such that I could not watch, much less appreciate, much less, like empathize with the story that was going on there because something felt so off and so uncomfortable.
00:13:08:06 - 00:13:18:12
Clark
And it's it's that, you know, again, it was I felt like these people were being exploited. That was just not. Yeah. And so you don't want to go there because it's just flat out doesn't make good film.
00:13:19:09 - 00:13:28:01
Cullen
And I mean, I don't I'm not going to I don't want to mention the channels things. I don't really I don't think again, kind of like we were describing earlier, I don't think it's intentional on their behalf.
00:13:28:01 - 00:13:29:03
Clark
But I didn't get that sense.
00:13:29:04 - 00:13:51:10
Cullen
There's something to describe it. There's something about sitting you know, one of the ones that I watched was it was a lady who had been in prostitution for a very long time. And she's sitting in this studio on this stool, and it just feels like it feels like a more refined kind of modern art version of like a freak show.
00:13:51:23 - 00:14:13:18
Cullen
Yeah, it's it's like this this like we're going to put somebody in this nice little studio, put them on a stool. We're going to ask them some questions. Maybe we'll buy them lunch and then, yeah, like, you know, and in that, you know, and I don't know, you know, I could be wrong. I don't know if they continue to support and talk to these people after I would doubt it because there are a lot but just.
00:14:13:18 - 00:14:20:12
Clark
But just taking the film as its own race, they are just taking the piece of film as its as its own. And you had the same feeling, right?
00:14:20:14 - 00:14:22:06
Cullen
You know, it was.
00:14:22:06 - 00:14:22:16
Clark
In and.
00:14:22:16 - 00:14:27:20
Cullen
So it was I mean, it really dismayed like I had I don't think I even made it three for one because.
00:14:27:20 - 00:14:28:12
Clark
It's taking.
00:14:28:20 - 00:14:29:13
Cullen
Made me uncomfortable.
00:14:29:13 - 00:14:30:12
Clark
It's too uncomfortable.
00:14:30:12 - 00:14:40:00
Cullen
Yeah. And that's and that's again, that's like so I can totally see the person who produced this and directed this, like, their vision is like, Oh, it's going to be so raw and right.
00:14:40:01 - 00:15:02:02
Clark
And having the best intention and having the best intentions. Like I want people to empathize with these subjects. I want people to see to see these people as for human beings and to not sit in judgment of them. And and I mean, I fully believe that is the case. I don't there's nothing there that I saw that would give me any indication that this was a purposeful exploitation.
00:15:02:21 - 00:15:12:10
Clark
Yeah. You know, and and I think it's so important to kind of, you know, just reiterate that, that it's it's often not intentional, but it doesn't matter.
00:15:12:10 - 00:15:13:15
Cullen
It also she had to be really care.
00:15:13:15 - 00:15:37:05
Clark
You just have to be so careful and I think it's really important to to elicit feedback during your filmmaking process. Again, I think especially from you know, if you're interviewing people who come from a very different place than you, it's helpful to probably get feedback from people whose lives are similar, you know, or in the you know, I would never, you know, for example, I don't know what it's like to be a woman.
00:15:37:05 - 00:15:53:23
Clark
I would never pretend to understand what it would be like to live from a woman's perspective. I would elicit a woman's, you know, feedback if I had some kind of concerns or questions or doubts about, you know, interviewing a woman about things that I just couldn't possibly know.
00:15:53:23 - 00:15:59:08
Cullen
So, I mean, Herzog is really interesting in this, too, because I think one of the keys is the questions that you ask.
00:15:59:08 - 00:15:59:14
Clark
Yeah.
00:16:00:03 - 00:16:19:19
Cullen
And so the thing about these that, that YouTube channel is that it's very often just asking questions about everything to do with their struggles and everything to do with like, how did you get here outnumbered, blah, blah, blah. Whereas what? Herzog What I find really interesting about Herzog's questions is no matter what the person is, is that he usually just asks questions about the person themselves.
00:16:20:08 - 00:16:33:08
Cullen
He doesn't ask them, you know, right into the abyss. He's not sitting there going like, So what do you think? Got you into prison? You know, what was it like to murder those people? Why did you murder them? It's it's a question about the person's state of being, you know.
00:16:33:08 - 00:16:33:18
Clark
Right.
00:16:33:19 - 00:16:52:22
Cullen
What what do you think about how do you feel? And I remember I think I've mentioned this on the podcast before. If not, I might have just mentioned to you, but there was this time when I was down at this like row of bars just near their house where I live, and there was this one legged homeless man outside, this convict.
00:16:52:22 - 00:16:53:13
Clark
Oh, yeah, I remember.
00:16:53:13 - 00:17:09:15
Cullen
His kind of religious. Yeah. And I remember seeing him and I just kind of, like, thought I bought him a chicken sandwich. Right? And then as I was talking to him, as he was eating it, I we, I just realized that he had so many stories and he was like a really interesting storyteller. And so I sort of sat down and talked to him for a bit.
00:17:10:01 - 00:17:22:05
Cullen
And again, it was one of these things which just immediately sprung in my mind, or it was like, I would love to get this guy on camera, but I don't want to be the person that's just like going up to a homeless person and being like, Here's a camera talking.
00:17:22:07 - 00:17:22:16
Clark
Yeah.
00:17:22:21 - 00:17:45:05
Cullen
And so I sort of passed it by him and he actually got like kind of prepped up and got really excited about the idea of, yeah, of being interviewed. And I haven't, I still haven't done it. You know, if I see him again, I'll, I think that I would, I would certainly think about it. But again it like it was the entire time in my mind I was like, you know, I never once asked him like, how did you lose your leg?
00:17:45:05 - 00:17:53:05
Cullen
Why are you right? The stories that he was telling me were about like when he would go to discos as a kid and he would go and it was like these like happened.
00:17:53:05 - 00:17:54:15
Clark
I think. I think you may me That's.
00:17:54:15 - 00:17:55:04
Cullen
More interesting.
00:17:55:07 - 00:18:12:00
Clark
And like, yeah. And you know, look again, like I'm never going to pretend like I'm some expert any of this. And honestly, a lot of this right here in this episode and the head you know, this has been the case for all of our episodes up until this point. I mean, I'd never putting myself in a place where I know more than somebody else.
00:18:12:00 - 00:18:52:08
Clark
This is often a way this podcast is a way for us to explore in real time. We're brainstorming, rate our thoughts on things, but I think, you know, hearing you speak in describing some of these differences you see talking about the different types of questions you ask, I mean, I think maybe maybe hypothesis is, you know, in some of those YouTube videos that we were talking about where we felt like they were exploitive, it kind of felt like the person was maybe and likely on accident coming from a place of like separateness, like I'm here and you're there and your experience is not my experience and not necessarily that that person was judging like you're
00:18:52:08 - 00:18:59:00
Clark
less than your butt. But there was like this wall of you're different. You and I are not the same.
00:18:59:08 - 00:19:05:02
Cullen
And the notion of why I describe it, it's like it was like this again, this this modern friction where it was like.
00:19:05:02 - 00:19:28:07
Clark
And let's highlight how you're different and let's because yeah, and there was like a certain amount of kind of like this, this little sensationalism of like, you know, it's like if you ask someone we're like, how did you and, you know, there's a way that you can ask somebody something and it's just like, what you want is like this juicy story of like, you know, how did you end up in prostitution or how did you end up homeless?
00:19:28:07 - 00:19:52:01
Clark
I don't know. And it's hard to pinpoint, but I feel like maybe some of it is in hers. I definitely talks about this and this lesson and numerous lessons, and I really feel like it's a it's a, you know, a narrative through with all of these lessons about documentary filmmaking is that, you know, you've got to see this person as a full human being and that you and them are in some way the same.
00:19:52:09 - 00:20:16:22
Clark
I mean, I think it still just comes down to empathy again and and to see whoever is in front of your camera as a full human being that you are, in effect, the same as right this we are one kind of connectivity. And it's like if you start to see these subjects as different in a in a fundamental way, I think you're going to treat them as fundamentally different.
00:20:16:22 - 00:20:26:18
Clark
And it's and you're right, then that becomes like you're you're putting somebody on a stage and saying like, look, look at this. Look at this person. You know.
00:20:26:19 - 00:20:41:20
Cullen
That's that's exactly what I think we both mean by exploitative, is that you are you are putting this person on display. And it could be you could have the greatest intentions. But at the end of the day, if your intentions are to be like, look what your life could become.
00:20:41:20 - 00:20:42:07
Clark
Yeah.
00:20:42:08 - 00:20:43:20
Cullen
Or like, look what some people live.
00:20:43:20 - 00:20:44:23
Clark
Oh well, yeah.
00:20:45:00 - 00:21:01:08
Cullen
Becomes again, it's this, it's exactly that. And it may be that your intentions are Well, I want to show people what people live like because I want them to empathize. But it's like that, you know, you're kind of having the opposite effect. You're just you're basically just allowing room for condescension.
00:21:02:00 - 00:21:02:12
Clark
Whereas. Yeah.
00:21:02:13 - 00:21:12:10
Cullen
And doing is exactly, exactly what Herzog does, which is to approach these things with a human eye, to sort of go like, where do we relate? How do we, you know.
00:21:12:10 - 00:21:12:18
Clark
Yeah.
00:21:12:23 - 00:21:13:17
Cullen
How are we the.
00:21:13:21 - 00:21:49:18
Clark
Commonalities of the human condition. And I think, you know, one of the other things, too, and again, it's like it's so difficult to kind of, you know, we all have to work to refine these things for ourselves. But certainly I think, you know, watching interviews, you know, taking a look at different approaches, as, you know, whether at television and film and and start to kind of see for yourself, but really focusing on how you feel like the filmmaker is treating and interacting and utilizing these subjects as as part of their film, what do you feel like their intentions are?
00:21:50:03 - 00:22:29:07
Clark
Why do you feel like they included those questions that interview? You know, it was their it was their intention to to sensationalize, to titillate, to educate, to empathize. I mean, you know, really conscientiously start to analyze these things and other filmmakers works. And and I think then you can start to refine for yourself what your boundaries are, and then you can consciously apply those when you're in your filmmaking work as opposed to kind of like letting it happen on accident and finding yourself in a situation where you're unsure but you've not spent the time to prepare.
00:22:29:18 - 00:22:51:15
Clark
And think about this issue before. I think, you know, a lot of people will sit down and they'll spend a lot of time thinking about what questions do I want to ask this interviewer Or, you know, you spend a lot of time planning a lot of aspects, but how much time was spent beforehand prepping yourself for the more challenging and subtle and nuanced ethical questions that might come up?
00:22:51:15 - 00:22:52:17
Clark
And I think it's it's.
00:22:52:17 - 00:23:04:15
Cullen
Another thing that Herzog talks about too, which is that he says that he, you know, he spends an hour with everyone, every person before in just talking to. And it's like that. That to me is very important.
00:23:04:15 - 00:23:06:12
Clark
Is not pre-interview and oh, by the way.
00:23:06:12 - 00:23:24:02
Cullen
But just No, no not, not yeah not not sitting there asking the questions and going, okay, I'm going to write that down. I like that. Yeah, but exactly. Just again, building a rapport, especially because people, you know, some people are just camera shy. Some people are you're going to be talking to people about things that they don't necessarily want to talk about or that they.
00:23:24:02 - 00:23:24:13
Clark
Have very.
00:23:24:13 - 00:23:26:01
Cullen
Sensitive openly.
00:23:26:01 - 00:23:26:13
Clark
Yeah.
00:23:27:05 - 00:23:32:03
Cullen
And that's Herzog tells the story. But the the father and the son and into the very.
00:23:32:03 - 00:23:32:09
Clark
Happy.
00:23:32:09 - 00:23:53:21
Cullen
Hour where it's the the father that's kind of he kind of recoils and pulls back at the idea of talking about, you know, the fact that he is sitting in prison with his son who is on death row. And there's this, you know, feeling that it's like you could you could very easily jump into this idea, Well, okay, we're on camera, so I'm going to push you.
00:23:53:22 - 00:23:54:03
Clark
Yeah.
00:23:54:15 - 00:24:03:12
Cullen
But but Herzog doesn't do that. Herzog kind of opens him up very gently, almost and almost. I don't want to say tricks.
00:24:03:12 - 00:24:04:03
Clark
No, it isn't true.
00:24:04:06 - 00:24:14:22
Cullen
But almost almost like just just he lets the guy know that he's not here to again, to exploit it. He's here to discuss the humanness.
00:24:14:22 - 00:24:41:04
Clark
Well, that's another good point. You know, I think people often can understand and when they're being exploited, you know, I think people can smell it. And so that's important. You know, this is another angle to really be cognizant and careful of these things because the openness with which you approach your subject and the, you know, the the the intentions with which you approach them, I think are going to often be sensed by the subject.
00:24:41:04 - 00:25:04:17
Clark
And so Herzog does push a little. He does, you know, when when when the father in prison says, I can't talk about that when he's talking, you know, Herzog comes to talk about how he feels as a father, that his son is on death row. They're both in prison. Well, this is asking somebody potentially to admit, you know, to kind of face some pretty intense shame.
00:25:04:17 - 00:25:27:05
Clark
I'm going to imagine. And none of us like to do that. I don't take very much, especially on camera. Yeah. So but I think he always you know, he he's always gentle. It's never a conniving or a manipulation or even like a, you know, an aggressive push. I think it's I would kind of think it's like he invites it's more of an invitation.
00:25:27:10 - 00:25:56:00
Clark
I think there's a big difference, you know, so it's there is a little bit of resistance from from the father. But I think Herzog has earned his his trust. And I think with just another invitation, then he eventually does open up. So I think there's a big difference. You know, if you're holding in your mind and heart that you're inviting somebody to do something that's going to have come out as different behavior than if you're pushing.
00:25:56:11 - 00:26:20:11
Clark
I think they're I think they're very different. Yeah. Yeah. And I think Herzog is a good example. If you watch it in interviews, I think he's really quite good at inviting people as opposed to pushing people even when he doesn't accept. No. And he is kind of you know, he is at eliciting he's trying to kind of pull some extra depth out of an interview subject.
00:26:20:11 - 00:26:25:16
Clark
I always kind of feel like it's more of an invitation. And so maybe that's a good that's a good way to kind of look at it, you know?
00:26:26:12 - 00:26:38:21
Cullen
But I mean, I don't think I especially don't think to if the father were to say, like, I'm not talking about this, I have no interest in talking about this, it makes me really uncomfortable. I don't think Herzog would continue to prod.
00:26:38:21 - 00:26:39:06
Clark
A great.
00:26:39:07 - 00:26:52:04
Cullen
Broad. I think, you know, I think Herzog would just like with the the the the priest and a priest is the right word because that might just be a specifically Catholic thing. But the guy that the player, the.
00:26:52:04 - 00:26:52:19
Clark
Yeah.
00:26:52:20 - 00:26:55:01
Cullen
A chaplain in charge of the house.
00:26:55:04 - 00:26:55:22
Clark
Yes. Yes.
00:26:56:10 - 00:27:18:19
Cullen
And how he again but that's a great example of how Herzog gets around this thing is the guy clearly isn't really interested at the beginning and opening up and then Herzog just asks him, okay, what about these squirrels? And they tell me about tell me about that. And then the guy opens up little. He opens up. It's just it's just because I think he knows that, you know, again, someone like Werner Herzog.
00:27:18:19 - 00:27:26:16
Cullen
And it's not just because Werner Herzog is Werner Herzog. It very much is because of the you know, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these people did had no idea who Herzog was.
00:27:26:16 - 00:27:27:10
Clark
I think you're right.
00:27:27:11 - 00:27:48:00
Cullen
And and so it's not just a matter of like a matter of celebrity or respect because he's got a name for himself. It very much becomes this. And it's actually very interesting cause it's very similar to and again, I think there's another thing that I've mentioned before, but there's this great and I think I've sent you this, but there's this great YouTube channel that does like interrogation breakdowns.
00:27:48:12 - 00:27:50:11
Cullen
And I might have mentioned this actually in the last episode.
00:27:50:13 - 00:27:50:20
Clark
Yeah.
00:27:51:19 - 00:28:10:12
Cullen
But but I'll just reiterate it because it's very pertinent. But it's it's like essentially there's these these tactics that you can use in interrogation and they do some that are very successful interrogations, you know, of people who have just either murdered their families or murdered somebody. And it's like very heavy stuff. But it's really interesting because it kind of teaches how to talk to people.
00:28:10:12 - 00:28:29:00
Cullen
But there's some really good examples and some of the best examples are exactly that, where it's this you talk about something arbitrary and you let the person just basically spin on and on about something arbitrary, arbitrary or arbitrary until they get this right, they come around. So now I've been talking a lot, so now I'm just more used to talking.
00:28:29:00 - 00:28:39:15
Cullen
So now I can. Whereas you go to another one, like there's some that are just abysmal interrogations. I don't know how these people live the job of interrogating where they just go in and they're just drilling the person. It's the person is like.
00:28:39:15 - 00:28:44:16
Clark
That's stereotypical, like they're, you know, holding the light in their eyes and they're like, you know, literally.
00:28:44:16 - 00:29:10:10
Cullen
No. And in some cases, yeah, yeah. And so you wind up getting this this really good look at like and of course that's a very specific circumstance, but psychology is quite, you know, applicable to different circumstances. And you just see, you know, okay, what, what generally makes somebody open up and what generally makes somebody, you know, shut down and kind of close off and more often that it's just a comfort level.
00:29:11:08 - 00:29:30:08
Cullen
You know, there are people that within an hour of being in and being asked to come in for questioning, you know, and have very little evidence that evidence against them will end up confessing. Yeah. Just simply because of how well the interrogator just spoke to them and just got in not an aggressive way, like not like them saying, oh, we know.
00:29:30:08 - 00:29:33:07
Clark
You get like a pretty emphatic way. I'm going to guess.
00:29:33:07 - 00:29:33:18
Cullen
Yeah, very.
00:29:33:18 - 00:29:34:09
Clark
Much repeat it.
00:29:34:09 - 00:29:45:02
Cullen
Yeah. And it very much often it's a it's an approach of, you know, like, listen, like we like I am here to help you get out of this. I want.
00:29:45:09 - 00:30:00:20
Clark
I want to make a caveat here. And in that I think there's a big difference though, like there is a limit to this comparison with the with the interrogators, though, because I think the interrogators are pretty much kind of hiding their intent, their.
00:30:00:20 - 00:30:03:02
Cullen
Intent, and they're very much there to exploit.
00:30:03:04 - 00:30:21:19
Clark
It's like there is a big difference. And so although although some of their tools may be similar, I think their overall intent and strategy is what it is, is different than what yours as a filmmaker should be. I, I think, you know.
00:30:22:04 - 00:30:22:17
Cullen
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:22:18 - 00:30:25:12
Clark
No, I can totally discuss it, you know, and there, there could be but.
00:30:25:12 - 00:30:25:23
Cullen
I think.
00:30:25:23 - 00:30:27:12
Clark
That discussion around that but.
00:30:27:22 - 00:30:53:11
Cullen
And that's exactly right what I mean when I say that a lot of like psychology like that is kind of it's kind of applicable to different situations because although your intentions may not be in a interviewing situation of of an interview on a movie, a doc to of course like get information, you know, you should I don't think that that's ever an intention that somebody should come in with is like, I want to get this specific piece of information out of this person.
00:30:53:11 - 00:30:56:23
Cullen
Right. Much like a confession like you shouldn't be looking for. Right.
00:30:57:00 - 00:30:57:06
Clark
You're not.
00:30:57:12 - 00:30:58:11
Cullen
In confession. We're going to.
00:30:58:11 - 00:31:02:03
Clark
Touch base on some of these things because you're a filmmaker. Not a not a journalist. Yeah.
00:31:02:03 - 00:31:21:08
Cullen
So there's but some of the ways that you could, again, use those tactics are just again, in the in the way of comforting someone. And unlike an interrogator, you can have your, you know, comforting, be completely genuine, but you can still use the same techniques to get there.
00:31:21:12 - 00:31:21:20
Clark
Yeah.
00:31:22:18 - 00:31:40:01
Cullen
And so, yeah, I think it's I think it's really interesting that I think that, you know, it's an interesting thing to watch and kind of study just because it's it's so applicable of just like talking to people who may be uncomfortable or nervous about talking about certain things, be it because of the subject matter, or just be it because of the circumstance, right?
00:31:40:19 - 00:31:42:03
Cullen
Of like sitting down for a vacation.
00:31:42:04 - 00:31:43:01
Clark
And often it's both.
00:31:43:01 - 00:31:43:14
Cullen
Never because.
00:31:43:14 - 00:31:54:07
Clark
Most people are not comfortable in front of a camera and most people aren't comfortable talking about sensitive personal things in their life. So yeah, so you're likely to find that quite often.
00:31:54:07 - 00:32:15:00
Cullen
And I know, I know we did discuss similar stuff in the previous episode, so I want to kind of actually touch on just some stuff that we didn't just just kind of change up the, the, I guess the pace a little bit, um, which is actually kind of coming into lesson 23 a bit.
00:32:15:00 - 00:32:15:18
Clark
Okay. Yeah.
00:32:16:00 - 00:32:27:00
Cullen
Um, so about the truth. Yeah, exactly. About truth in nonfiction, which is all about and pretty good segue is you just mentioned the thing about the journalism not wanting to. You're not we're not, we're not this is.
00:32:27:05 - 00:32:28:13
Clark
Definitely an interesting topic.
00:32:28:14 - 00:32:29:03
Cullen
Storytelling.
00:32:29:03 - 00:32:31:23
Clark
Because I think this has gotten confused big time.
00:32:32:21 - 00:32:41:02
Cullen
Yeah. And it's and it's you know, you've got a pretty pertinent point here, which is just like it's documentaries don't just have to be facts because facts don't make.
00:32:41:02 - 00:33:04:08
Clark
Facts don't make too. It's just maybe we can say this like five or six more times. I feel like this is so important and it's a topic that's that's near and dear to my heart. And I think with the proliferation of, you know, the short form, I don't even know what to call them. They're not videos with the prolific proliferation of YouTube.
00:33:04:08 - 00:33:23:12
Clark
And and I and I don't want to get into a political discussion or anything like this, but I do think it's important to discuss the difference between documentary film journalism, didactic videos and propaganda videos.
00:33:23:12 - 00:33:23:21
Cullen
Yes.
00:33:24:09 - 00:33:37:04
Clark
Those things are different. All different things. And I think that we both filmmakers and audiences get confused as to what documentaries can be.
00:33:37:09 - 00:33:39:18
Cullen
They can be hazy because references can be.
00:33:39:18 - 00:34:00:05
Clark
Sometimes they can. But I think that there are some distinct I think there are some ways that we can effectively distinguish. And I think that you can use these distinctions as a filmmaker to help guide you at the very least to to be aware of what you're doing. If you if you think you're a documentary filmmaker, but you're making propaganda, these are two different things.
00:34:00:11 - 00:34:29:00
Clark
You should be aware of it. And I think, you know, I've seen so much work where it's, you know, it's just there's clearly the filmmaker themselves just are confused. And I think, you know, let's start with some of the easiest is Herzog specifically talks about the difference between journalism and documentary. And you know it's you know, and maybe it is a little, you know, blurrier than maybe it's not perfectly clean cut.
00:34:29:00 - 00:34:58:06
Clark
But in my mind, it kind of feels like I think journalism should be about facts and it should be obvious when you're giving an opinion versus expressing just these are the facts of what happened. As a documentary filmmaker, you aren't bound by any of that. You you are you know, you are completely free to to to make your film as if it were a fictional narrative film, in my opinion.
00:34:58:13 - 00:35:15:11
Clark
And I think I mean, and, you know, one of the things that I love about Herzog and his documentary films is that he allows himself the freedom to manipulate, to make up. He gives examples in this lesson about quotes that he just pulls out of thin air. He he makes them up himself, and then he attribute tributes to historical people.
00:35:16:17 - 00:35:26:08
Clark
He manufacturers all kinds of situations. He scripts things he coaches, his subjects. He, you know, completely manufactures things in his doctrine.
00:35:26:08 - 00:35:53:19
Cullen
Because, I mean, that's that's kind of what the basics like that that is pure filmmaking is the manipulation of spaces. So the idea that you know and I that's that's what I think people have to draw a super, super clear distinction between those two things because you cannot go into making a documentary by saying, Well, I'm going to get some facts, I'm going to read some like peer review essays, and that's going to be my move.
00:35:53:19 - 00:36:12:00
Cullen
And I think that, you know, to relate it to the project that we're working on right now, we very, very quickly, when we were jumping on this, this idea of making a documentary about like different lines of thinking, conspiracy theories, things like that, we very clearly were like, we don't really care about the content of the conspiracy theory, right?
00:36:12:00 - 00:36:23:13
Cullen
Like, we're not going to be going in for an analysis. What he went on believes we are interested in what the people that believe them are like. What what brought them to those beliefs?
00:36:23:13 - 00:36:26:13
Clark
Why did they what does this say about the human condition?
00:36:26:13 - 00:36:54:10
Cullen
And again, very much what we were talking about earlier, which is like, how do we relate to them? Right. You know what? In what ways are we very similar and stuff like that. So it's that kind of is a very, very distinct difference to me is just this idea, like, what are the motives? Are you going in to, you know, educate people on a topic or are you going in to enlighten people on on an experience that they may not have ever had or even thought about it?
00:36:54:10 - 00:37:14:11
Clark
So it's it's a it's a I mean, language that I would use to kind of describe the difference. You know, I mean, I love I love this idea, this simple sentence. Facts don't make truth. And I think most people get that pretty quickly. It's you can have a laundry list of facts. But that what does that speak to?
00:37:14:11 - 00:37:26:10
Clark
What does that point to? And I think, you know, when Herzog uses the word truth, he's talking about a fundamental kind of absolute human.
00:37:26:23 - 00:37:27:22
Cullen
Yeah, I was going to say.
00:37:27:22 - 00:37:28:22
Clark
Human esthetic kind.
00:37:28:22 - 00:37:29:15
Cullen
Of. Yeah.
00:37:29:16 - 00:37:34:21
Clark
Moment of awe. Is is I trying to find like, words to, you know.
00:37:35:03 - 00:37:37:23
Cullen
Almost like a truth of nature, if that makes any sense, to a.
00:37:37:23 - 00:37:59:20
Clark
Truth of human nature, the truth of the shared human condition experience, something that is inside us, that speaks to a commonality of experience in all people. Right. This is, you know, I think every painter, every poet, every sculptor, you know, this is what you're shooting for, at least ideally, I think when you're it's and this is a, you know, some differences, right?
00:37:59:20 - 00:38:09:03
Clark
If you're if you're working with something didactic, Lee, what you're trying to do is educate, you're trying to inform. And that's different. That's different.
00:38:09:03 - 00:38:13:15
Cullen
Especially because it involves point of view. It should always involve your point of view for.
00:38:13:15 - 00:38:16:07
Clark
Documentary, for documentary, for journalism.
00:38:16:07 - 00:38:24:00
Cullen
I mean, you said it. Yeah. No, Yeah, but it, but it that's what I mean is that it's like you're always to pretend that there's no bias in a documentary.
00:38:24:00 - 00:38:26:16
Clark
It's ludicrous. It should have bias and it shouldn't have bias. Yes.
00:38:27:02 - 00:38:46:14
Cullen
Exactly. It should be very much a you should feel sorry. You should feel the person behind the documentary or the the message or the the intention. Whereas whereas if I'm reading a article on, you know, election results, I don't want that. I don't want I don't care about.
00:38:46:17 - 00:38:55:06
Clark
Unless it's specifically labeled this is an editorial. This is an opinion opinion column. And that's different. That's different. There are places for obviously there are places there.
00:38:55:06 - 00:38:56:21
Cullen
Are also reasons why those are clearly.
00:38:57:01 - 00:38:57:23
Clark
Exactly.
00:38:57:23 - 00:39:00:05
Cullen
And that's where I like that's that's what people do.
00:39:00:05 - 00:39:17:21
Clark
Get confused. I mean, I really do. I you know, I have a lot of friends. I know a lot of people in my in my life where they're like they send me a video and they're like, look at this documentary. It's not a documentary. It's a piece of propaganda. Yeah, it's you know, I got it.
00:39:17:21 - 00:39:19:04
Cullen
Especially with COVID.
00:39:19:04 - 00:39:20:12
Clark
And all kinds of stuff. And again, I.
00:39:21:00 - 00:39:21:02
Cullen
We.
00:39:21:03 - 00:39:43:08
Clark
Don't want to get into a political space here because there's propaganda on all sides of the political spectrum. And so the point is not to to speak to any of it and specifically, but it's just, you know, there's propaganda which is trying to manipulate somebody into thinking a certain way, like in the, you know, most generic kind of lay person definition didactic is I'm trying to instruct you in how to do something.
00:39:43:08 - 00:40:14:06
Clark
And clearly those two things can kind of be together in one piece, potentially a piece of journalism is here are some facts again, ideally, and that a documentary is this is a personal expression of opinion within attempting to speak to a underlying fundamental shared experience of the human condition by ideally utilizing esthetic or to do that to open up a heart and mind.
00:40:14:18 - 00:40:17:18
Clark
That's there's my best, that's my best. But I mean, if you.
00:40:18:15 - 00:40:51:22
Cullen
Look at something like Triumph of the Will, you know, Lenny Riefenstahl, which is by all means an incredibly effective piece of propaganda. But, you know, technically speaking, Riefenstahl, in the circumstance that she was working in, it's not like it makes it less of a movie because just because of its subject matter, if that makes any sense. Whereas if it were to be, you know, if that were to be something like a newsreel trying to be, you know, a piece of journalism, then that would completely change the context.
00:40:52:09 - 00:40:54:12
Cullen
But the fact that its intention is to manipulate.
00:40:54:12 - 00:40:55:03
Clark
That's propaganda.
00:40:55:03 - 00:41:16:16
Cullen
Intention is to propagandize. Exactly makes it, you know, that still makes it successful in its goal in a weird way, and it makes it really, you know, an interesting thing to study because you kind of sit there going, you know, this isn't you can't fault the movie for being a piece of propaganda when it was trying to be a piece of propaganda in the first place.
00:41:16:16 - 00:41:39:12
Cullen
And I think that's exactly where you've got to, again, draw these distinctions where it's like if you were to take the exact same context and the exact same message behind that movie and again, put it into an article or put it into something that's meant to be, you know, this this journalistic truth of facts and stuff like that, then it wouldn't work at all just on a purely, you know, artistic scale.
00:41:39:12 - 00:41:53:14
Cullen
It wouldn't work because it's now you're losing all these elements that would make something journalism. Whereas when you put it back into the context of it being a a movie, a propaganda movie, it suddenly works perfectly for its intention.
00:41:53:19 - 00:42:08:07
Clark
Well, but I just want to be I want to be clear here, or at least I will speak for myself and not you. But I want to be clear. I mean, I saying that a piece of propaganda is an effective piece of propaganda is not saying that it's like ethical, acceptable.
00:42:08:13 - 00:42:10:06
Cullen
No, it's not an endorsement in.
00:42:10:06 - 00:42:18:05
Clark
Any way, shape, fashion or form being endorsed. I just I want to say that for myself, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:18:07 - 00:42:18:17
Cullen
No, of.
00:42:18:17 - 00:42:40:11
Clark
Course. Loss of what? You know, I'm not a fan of propaganda. Regardless of what the message is, whether I agree with it or not, because I just I, you know, I don't think manipulating people in that way it can, because it's almost always a a manipulation that is not accurate or, you know, or.
00:42:40:15 - 00:42:50:03
Cullen
But that's exactly what I mean is that that like, you know, I of course detest the the situation around everything in that in that movie.
00:42:50:07 - 00:43:00:05
Clark
I was just I was like waiting for you to get there. I just put. Yeah. And I think I knew what you were saying, but I just wanted to give you a chance to to, to really kind of clarify that.
00:43:01:14 - 00:43:21:15
Cullen
Yeah, I'm, but I think the, the point perhaps that the I was trying to make is more that you strip away the context of that and you look at the intentions of what it's trying to be as a propaganda film. And again that that essentially it is successful at doing what it is is trying to do in that it is trying to propaganda.
00:43:22:00 - 00:43:26:02
Clark
Hoping that if your argument so are into it not argument into our.
00:43:26:02 - 00:43:34:13
Cullen
Little discourse that when you're if so if if you're making something if you're making you have to know what your intentions are in making it and you have to know what you are trying to make.
00:43:34:13 - 00:43:52:04
Clark
Well, I think you should be aware of it. I guess you know, my perspective, exactly what I'm trying to say is this I'm trying to say that if because I hopefully we're speaking to people who want to be documentary filmmakers or like a film like Herzog, hopefully their intention is not to go make propaganda or to make didactic, you know?
00:43:52:04 - 00:44:19:16
Clark
Right. That's my hope. Now, if you want to be a journalist, then go listen to another podcast, because I'm sure there are a lot of them that are about how to be a great journalist. So hopefully we're speaking to people who are interested in or documentary film or want to be a documentary filmmaker. What I'm trying to say is you need to be aware of the distinctions between propaganda and didactic work and journalism so that when you set out to make a documentary film, you're coming at it from the angle of making a documentary film.
00:44:19:16 - 00:44:25:04
Clark
You want to steer yourself away from tactics that would be used in propaganda.
00:44:25:21 - 00:44:32:14
Cullen
And the reason I brought up that was because I have heard a lot of people refer to Triumph of the Will as a documentary AS.
00:44:32:14 - 00:44:33:03
Clark
Okay.
00:44:33:03 - 00:44:33:18
Cullen
As a piece.
00:44:33:18 - 00:44:36:17
Clark
Okay. I got you. I got you. I see what you're saying. Okay.
00:44:36:18 - 00:44:40:05
Cullen
So I think it's again, it's it's, it's like if you haven't, you're.
00:44:40:05 - 00:44:43:20
Clark
See, you're saying it's a it's a, it's clearly a piece of propaganda.
00:44:44:02 - 00:44:45:12
Cullen
Well a very clear cut clip.
00:44:45:12 - 00:44:48:07
Clark
And it is. And that the intentions behind.
00:44:48:10 - 00:44:48:17
Cullen
Being.
00:44:48:23 - 00:45:05:16
Clark
Its intentions and its effect and everything about it is propaganda. It is not a documentary film. It wasn't. And but but I see what you're saying. But you've you've heard people refer to it as a documentary film, so they mislabeling it and misunderstanding it. I okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. And that's what, which.
00:45:05:16 - 00:45:17:17
Cullen
Is a but I mean, it's but that's what I mean, it's interesting about, you know, all of this is that it's it's again, just like you said, it's very there are very clear distinctions and that's where sometimes people can try to blur it. There are a lot of or.
00:45:17:17 - 00:45:18:05
Clark
They're just don't know.
00:45:18:05 - 00:45:24:12
Cullen
Whether you mention this. Again, if you talk about YouTube where it's like how many documentaries come out on YouTube.
00:45:24:12 - 00:45:25:14
Clark
That are not documentaries.
00:45:25:14 - 00:45:45:02
Cullen
At all that are, you know, and I'm doing air quotes, of course you see me doing air quotes. But, but you look at these these like very, very conspiratorial and they and they can be really, really good at just almost trying to do the journalism thing to where they just present facts or they cherry pick sort of a study or something like that.
00:45:45:02 - 00:45:52:22
Cullen
And then it's just it's, it's like, well, what do you think this means? Draw your own conclusions. But they're not telling you to draw your own conclusions because they've drawn all the conclusions.
00:45:52:22 - 00:45:55:09
Clark
For they're not documentary films. So now.
00:45:55:12 - 00:45:55:23
Cullen
And they're not.
00:45:56:06 - 00:46:17:16
Clark
They're always going to exist. People are always going to make them. But, you know, again, ideally we're speaking to people who are who want to be documentary filmmakers or filmmakers, period. And it's, you know, looking at these other I'm just going to call them media. They're like just completely other mediums, in my opinion, even though they use moving pictures, I don't even see them as the same thing.
00:46:19:02 - 00:46:21:02
Cullen
It's like calling a newspaper a novel.
00:46:21:02 - 00:46:43:22
Clark
Yeah, which is completely different and right. Just because there's paper and ink, it's not the same thing. And, and I see it, so it's as so fundamentally different and the goals are so fundamentally different, you know? And again, I just, you know, it's I feel like as a documentary filmmaker, your goal is to illuminate fundamental truths of the human condition.
00:46:44:08 - 00:47:02:07
Clark
Esthetically and it's not about telling somebody what to think or how to think. It's not about showing someone how to do something. And it's not manipulating people into a belief system or out of a belief system that's not what documentary filmmaking is. So I mean.
00:47:02:07 - 00:47:08:13
Cullen
That. But and with that being said too, it's important again to to have a grasp on what your point of view is.
00:47:08:13 - 00:47:09:04
Clark
Well, you must.
00:47:09:04 - 00:47:19:06
Cullen
Get a lot of it's about person who must in a box you know and I think that that a lot of people get that confused as well which is like well if I'm sharing my perspective in this movie, how is it not?
00:47:19:06 - 00:47:39:11
Clark
And that's where they're getting the thing. But that's confusing journalism and documentary filmmaking. And that's why I think it's important to really fully understand that distinction. Right? Because. Because if you you're likely not going to be a very good journalist if you think you're a filmmaker, but you don't think that your opinion should be in it and you're also not going to make a good film if that's the way you're seeing it.
00:47:39:11 - 00:48:01:16
Clark
So, you know, you're confused and you're not going to do either of those two things a service. So and again, I please, you know, if anybody out there wants to make propaganda, I hope that you don't please reconsider that. If you are if you're consciously making propaganda, I implore you, please stop and think about what you're doing and don't do it.
00:48:02:13 - 00:48:24:12
Cullen
And and I think another another I think perhaps a key distinction between propaganda journalism and documentary is that documentary when we say that the truth like facts, aren't truth, what we don't mean is like this alternative fact kind of thing where it's like you're making up lies, correct? Propaganda relies on on lie, absolutely relies on falsity.
00:48:24:12 - 00:48:25:03
Clark
Absolutely.
00:48:26:00 - 00:48:32:18
Cullen
Journalism relies on facts, documentaries. I don't even want to say the documentary somewhere in the middle.
00:48:32:18 - 00:48:33:21
Clark
It's not. It's a different thing.
00:48:33:21 - 00:48:39:15
Cullen
Nothing to do with propaganda documentaries is about taking those facts in applying them to them.
00:48:39:23 - 00:48:50:23
Clark
A document like it. Exactly. It's like one thing as a as a poem, you know, journalism as a newspaper. And again, and those other things I think are manipulations and they're not even invisible, may.
00:48:50:23 - 00:49:09:05
Cullen
Not even know that. They're like, you know, So I will say one really easy way to find out is if you're making a documentary and there's something and you are intentionally leaving out facts or you are you are intentionally, you know, mis mischaracterizing something or you are just flat out putting something in there that, you know, to be untrue.
00:49:09:10 - 00:49:13:07
Cullen
You're not making a documentary anymore. You're now making, you know, oh, well, let's again.
00:49:13:08 - 00:49:43:17
Clark
Well, this is interesting, though. Let's so let's see this, though. But so there's a way I could interpret what you just said, though. It's kind of contradicting what we've said. Right. That it's not about facts. Documentary is not about facts. Documentary is about like a deeper personal experience or, you know, so it's like I would actually say, and maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I would say you're absolutely free to to leave out any fact, quote unquote, fact that you may stumble upon as you're interviewing someone or as you're doing your documentary.
00:49:43:17 - 00:49:49:17
Clark
I could film a landscape and Missouri and tell you it's Antarctica if I want to. Of course.
00:49:49:17 - 00:50:11:03
Cullen
I mean, but I think that it's it's about what do you to me when I when I say that it's more about the like so if I'm interviewing somebody and they say, you know, let's say let's say that I'm doing an interview, let's say into the abyss and I'm interviewing somebody and they unequivocally deny their charge and they say, you know, I didn't do this.
00:50:11:03 - 00:50:28:22
Cullen
I didn't expect sex. I didn't I didn't kill my wife for whatever. And then at one point they say, you know, let's say I did kill my wife, and you cut around it and you just get the part that says, I kill my wife. I say, Oh, and you put that in there again. And that's a very that's a very clear example.
00:50:29:08 - 00:50:30:20
Cullen
That's a very good it's interesting.
00:50:30:20 - 00:50:37:01
Clark
Let's let's examine this for just a second. So like I said, audience, this is like a real time, you know, brainstorm.
00:50:37:01 - 00:50:37:13
Cullen
Examine.
00:50:37:14 - 00:50:46:23
Clark
Real time again, real time examination. So, you know, who knows? We may contradict ourselves within, you know, one episode, much less previous.
00:50:46:23 - 00:50:48:10
Cullen
Or just like Herzog, just like.
00:50:48:10 - 00:51:16:14
Clark
Herzog. So let's think about this. I mean, because you've got kind of like a confabulation of several different things here, I think in this one example. So what you're talking about is your you are cherry picking from an interview what you're going to put into a documentary. And the example you use is that you have a a person who's in prison and they say a whole bunch of times, I didn't do this, I didn't do this, I didn't do this.
00:51:16:14 - 00:51:41:06
Clark
But then one time you have them like kind of imagining hypothetically if they did. And so you take the language of that hypothetical example and you make it seem like they're admitting that they did this when throughout 90% of the interview they said they didn't. Well, I think so. Going back to the first part of this podcast, you know, everything is situationally specific.
00:51:42:03 - 00:52:29:07
Clark
I think it's you know, you have an ethical question here, first and foremost, which is, ah, is it appropriate to misrepresent your subject and radically change what they said? And I think the answer to that for me is that that is not ethical and and so it wouldn't pass that test for me. Now, if we move on to the second part of our conversation, which is like, okay, the difference between documentary filmmaking, journalism, propaganda, etc., it's really difficult for me to say because, you know, documentary again, is not about the factual representation of things just into in their pure factual form, but you likely would be going against that.
00:52:29:14 - 00:52:39:14
Clark
As a documentary filmmaker, you probably are still even transgressing there because the idea is not to misrepresent. Like that's I don't you know, that's just a very interesting question.
00:52:39:14 - 00:52:48:23
Cullen
I think I think to me it's it's and I think that what an interesting aspect to look at is that like a lot of Netflix documentaries that have know a lot of their crime ones.
00:52:48:23 - 00:52:51:03
Clark
Especially with all this true crime stuff, they're just there.
00:52:51:07 - 00:53:14:19
Cullen
There's a to me it's not necessarily like I of course point of view and again, there's an inherent bias and as we said, you should have a bias. So if you're choosing elements to include into your interview, you always a part of your interview you always that that yeah that support your point then of course my point more is that if you.
00:53:14:19 - 00:53:15:23
Clark
Are but I don't consider those docs.
00:53:15:23 - 00:53:39:05
Cullen
Intentionally misreport. Oh no no but I mean if you are intentionally misrepresenting something that someone said to the point that that it is the antithesis of what their they were saying, then you are no longer you're no longer bending the truth to your perspective. You are now faking it. Okay. I need to me fakery of that. And I don't mean just fakery as in like getting a stock footage because we have to be really very.
00:53:39:05 - 00:53:39:22
Clark
Specific with.
00:53:39:22 - 00:53:55:10
Cullen
Our, like I say what I say. Yeah, yeah. When I say faking it, I don't mean Herzog, you know, getting someone to do something again and pretend that it is their first time saying it right, that's fine. Well, what about them? When I say faking it, I mean. I mean. I mean faking it. As in you are. You are lying, essentially.
00:53:55:10 - 00:53:58:17
Cullen
You know you are. You may not be lying with words, but to the audience you are now.
00:53:58:17 - 00:53:58:20
Clark
Now.
00:53:59:18 - 00:54:00:23
Cullen
Illicitly lying to them.
00:54:00:23 - 00:54:16:14
Clark
Let's explore it, though. How is that lie different than Herzog's lie, where he writes a quote and says, this is from Pascal and he puts it in the film and it says Pascal, but he wrote it. Yeah. And it's not that those are two lies, but.
00:54:16:14 - 00:54:18:02
Cullen
I think it's again, I think it's the con.
00:54:18:03 - 00:54:18:11
Clark
How they.
00:54:18:16 - 00:55:03:09
Cullen
Think it's Herzog. The use of that is not to to mischaracterize Pascal in a way that that supports his point of view to to a degree that would be you know, propagandistic. Okay whereas me going out and or you know as another example, me getting a quote from a politician and taking that out of a huge sentence, which is something that people do, I mean, it's again, it's it's to me to go back to the newspaper analogy, it's like looking at tabloids versus, you know, headlines, headlines over recent times have started to skew very much in the direction of tabloids and I consider my I to me, I consider tabloids to be a form of
00:55:03:09 - 00:55:23:13
Cullen
propaganda because they are very much about sensationalism. They're very rarely true at all. They're very rarely even based on any truth at all. They're about making things up and selling them for sensationalism and for, if anything, you know, the extreme ification of people's beliefs and sowing divisions so that they can make more profit off of that division.
00:55:23:14 - 00:55:23:23
Clark
Right.
00:55:24:22 - 00:55:49:14
Cullen
So so to me, it's again, it becomes that difference between, you know, a personal point of view of me and a documentary getting a quote from somebody and, you know, perhaps shifting that quote into a degree that that would make that appear that they were agreeing with me more than they were. Well, I mean, this is somebody disagreeing with me and then me twisting that into them, agreeing with me, if that makes sense.
00:55:49:14 - 00:56:11:05
Clark
I think motive is important. Right. So let's look at it from that perspective. Let's take some of these examples we've just been talking about. So Herzog's motive for making up a quote and that attributed to Pascal and I can speak a little bit to this because he Herzog literally speaks to this like he actually yes, I'm not putting words, although I'm paraphrasing him, I'm not putting words in his mouth.
00:56:11:11 - 00:56:36:19
Clark
He did that because he was trying to his motive. His goal was to illuminate this, what he saw as a deeper truth about in his film. And and so his goal was that he you know, that was his motive. It wasn't to to to bring harm to Pascal's image. It wasn't to, you know, any you know, to hurt anybody.
00:56:36:19 - 00:57:02:03
Clark
It wasn't because he had some particular specific political agenda or anything else. It was he was he was utilizing it as a type of poetry to elicit a deeper gravity and emotional response in his film. Now, if you so so I think motive is really important here, and that's why these lessons are so connected, right? Because you can see how your ethics is involved in all of these decisions.
00:57:03:00 - 00:57:30:10
Clark
Yeah. And they can get very complicated and nuanced and difficult, fast, which we're illustrating here over the past ten, 15 minutes in this podcast. But if you're but but let's say so there's like a and your motive is to illuminate and to elicit an emotional response. Um, and then your example where you are mischaracterizing the total overall intent of an interview's words.
00:57:31:04 - 00:57:57:04
Clark
And in your case, it would be to do so in a very negative way because you're you're, you're making it look like somebody has admitted guilt versus versus professing innocence. So you've so materially changed it. And it's clearly in a way that could be detrimental to that person. And, you know, I don't know what motive could exist that would over way that result.
00:57:57:12 - 00:58:18:23
Cullen
So and I think to it, there's there's no you know, these are very clear cut examples and that's why they're examples, because they're made up. There's no I and I think you would agree with me that there's no and that's kind of why at the beginning I said that there's no hard stops. There are ways to distinguish these three things journalism, propaganda and documentary.
00:58:19:10 - 00:58:52:04
Cullen
But oftentimes people can use the fact that there is blurry lines to their advantage, and that's how they can get away with presenting a documentary film or story, presenting propaganda as a documentary film, or presenting propaganda as journalism. Um, because you can you can really take advantage of, you know, you don't know, let's say that the, the person in that example that professed their innocence is black, and I am somebody who has deep racial undertones to all of my work.
00:58:52:04 - 00:58:53:11
Cullen
That's not, you know, of course, I'm not.
00:58:53:16 - 00:58:54:22
Clark
Just for I understand just.
00:58:54:22 - 00:58:59:09
Cullen
For clarification, in case someone takes any of this out of context, but which is your mode.
00:58:59:10 - 00:59:01:06
Clark
Your motive is is a race.
00:59:01:06 - 00:59:22:12
Cullen
Let's say that, you know, the director there is, you know, racially charged. It's it's a it's a motive to stir up hatred towards a certain race. Um, that then again, that's where leans into propaganda and that's where you then go back and you look at things like triumph of the will, things like Soviet propaganda, things like for fascist propaganda from Italy.
00:59:22:21 - 00:59:30:23
Cullen
And it becomes so like you kind of look at it and you go, okay, these things are very clear because of the style that they're made in the well. And the history of.
00:59:30:23 - 00:59:41:18
Clark
This has made them clear. There's we consume a lot of propaganda today that is just as clearly made, but is less considered propaganda because we don't because of the distance of history.
00:59:41:18 - 01:00:06:08
Cullen
A lot of media, right? Mm hmm. So so I think that that's where it becomes like, so what to me, despite the fact that that might be in a completely documentary, can doing air quotes setting and a documentary context. Um that to me instantly turns it to propaganda because now you are no longer looking at this idea of, you know, let's again go back to this.
01:00:06:08 - 01:00:25:18
Cullen
This facts don't make truth. You're still looking for truth. You know, I'm not looking for personal truth. I'm looking for truth about human nature. I'm looking for things that are fundamentally true, that or that I may believe to be true to the purest extent of of my being. Things that I believe are true.
01:00:25:22 - 01:00:26:06
Clark
Mm hmm.
01:00:26:15 - 01:00:34:05
Cullen
As soon as you get into this line of things that you know aren't true, but you're presenting them as truth, that's when it becomes propaganda to me. Well.
01:00:34:17 - 01:00:48:23
Clark
Don't forget me. I mean, again, it's not. It's not very just to play. Hey, just to play devil's advocate, but, you know, of course, people could believe with all their heart and soul and something that that something is true when it, in fact, is not. And so this is where again, I and it's.
01:00:48:23 - 01:00:49:17
Cullen
So it's better.
01:00:50:04 - 01:01:17:05
Clark
It gets better. But even, you know people can feel like they have a right a positive motive. And of course it it not be but this is but look, the point is not that we're never going to be able to present this in this perfectly defined way for an audience. I think the point is more, you know, as we discuss these things, that A, it's great to discuss because it it helps refine your own boundaries and your own guidelines for for yourself.
01:01:17:05 - 01:01:23:22
Clark
It also helps you as a as an audience to understand what type of content you're seen as a filmmaker.
01:01:23:22 - 01:01:24:23
Cullen
Keep an eye out for those things.
01:01:24:23 - 01:01:54:17
Clark
As a filmmaker to hopefully move toward or move away from propaganda to and move toward a mode of of in illumination utilizing esthetic or and you know, for me, truth is a very challenging word. And I think we've illustrated that it is for everybody, actually. And it's and we can say absolute truth. You can say big truth, you can use capital T truth, you can, but none of these things actually define it really any further.
01:01:54:17 - 01:02:19:17
Clark
You know, we're never going to be able to fully define it. For me, it's about an esthetic truth, some kind of and I can't say it any differently. It's not about some kind of literal l truth. Like there's a grass in my front yard and that does. Yes, there is. But that is not a truth. That's what that.
01:02:20:00 - 01:02:23:17
Cullen
And then it's, you know, you could make a documentary, but the truth would ask you why is the.
01:02:23:17 - 01:02:50:11
Clark
Great what if I go outside? But my point is that if I go outside and I stand in it and I feel it on my bare feet and and I close my eyes or I lay down in it and I am moved deeply by the experience of being with it. That's the truth that I'm that I'm looking for is a documentary filmmaker.
01:02:50:16 - 01:03:10:16
Clark
Yeah. So I don't know another way to describe it. And everybody will have their own. But the point is not that you accept ours or, or even that you have have one and only definition for yourself, and it stays that way forever. It's a constantly evolving, a constantly I'm constantly redefining mine and trying to better understand my relationship to it.
01:03:10:16 - 01:03:30:10
Clark
And I mean, hell, it's something that I, you know, in kind of a medicines, it's what I'm exploring with my film. What is truth? What is your truth? What is the truth? What is you know, none of us, we get Monopoly on it and yeah, Helen and I don't know any more about it than you do. Likely, but we're just here talking about it.
01:03:31:07 - 01:03:43:03
Cullen
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. It's all conjecture, and that's why. But I think that that's exactly why it's important to kind of understand that and to have that kind of those glasses on.
01:03:43:03 - 01:03:43:23
Clark
When you should be thinking.
01:03:43:23 - 01:03:44:11
Cullen
Consume.
01:03:44:11 - 01:03:46:09
Clark
And it's important to be it's to be thinking.
01:03:46:17 - 01:03:48:00
Cullen
It's analyzing, and you're.
01:03:48:00 - 01:04:04:04
Clark
Never going to come to it. You know, it it's like you could interpret, you know, the way Herzog presents it here. I would be so interested if you asked ten different people, 100 different people what their understanding was of what he was talking about at the end of these two lessons that we've covered today, I think you're going to get 100 different answers.
01:04:04:17 - 01:04:06:10
Clark
Yeah, Yeah, everybody is.
01:04:06:10 - 01:04:10:17
Cullen
You also probably will find people who find into the abyss exploitative.
01:04:11:06 - 01:04:11:13
Clark
You know.
01:04:11:16 - 01:04:12:20
Cullen
Or Grizzly Man.
01:04:12:21 - 01:04:32:18
Clark
Absolutely. That's exactly And and you could even make, you know, Grizzly bear. I think you could. Or grizzly man. Sorry. You could. You could. I think there's quite a few people probably you could find that would consider some of that exploitive. So look, you know, orient every every person in an audience is going to see things through their own.
01:04:32:18 - 01:05:08:06
Clark
You know, we all see things through our own kind of prism and lens of our own experience. And all of our experiences are a little bit different. So. Mm hmm. And that's one of the this again, this is like one of the extraordinary challenges and the extraordinary gifts of art and filmmaking is that none of these things are cut and dry and you could live a hundred lives and never get tired or bored of, you know, of, of, of, of figuring out how you personally are going to handle all of these different questions.
01:05:08:06 - 01:05:11:09
Cullen
Yeah. No, I think that's there we go. Gratefully.
01:05:11:09 - 01:05:19:08
Clark
So. Hey. Yeah, well, hey, you know what, guys? That was fun. I mean, sometimes the stuff is not cut and dry. Sometimes this stuff is kind of messy. I really think that's why.
01:05:19:08 - 01:05:23:04
Cullen
It's so important to interrogate these ideas. It is kind of go through them.
01:05:23:04 - 01:05:41:19
Clark
And I really enjoyed our conversation. Colin. I think it's like, you know, and sometimes it gets a little messy and like, you and I are trying to kind of sort out even our own thoughts as, as we kind of walk through this, you know, our independently ourselves and, you know, kind of come together and it's it's all kind of this mismatch of.
01:05:42:10 - 01:05:58:17
Cullen
We end just as we as we wrap up, too. I just like this is what I love about these these episodes is that this is more in depth than I've thought about these lessons and these ideas than I did when I was just watching them or even just kind of discussing. Yeah.
01:05:59:06 - 01:06:25:09
Clark
Well, that's the idea exactly, is that hopefully we're adding a little bit of something to those discussions, hopefully. And again, the idea is to I mean, like I've said this probably at the end of, you know, all of our episodes, or at least the past few, is that I love doing this podcast because it gets me inspired, it gets me thinking and um, and hopefully that's what they do for you out there listening.
01:06:25:09 - 01:06:44:09
Clark
It it's never to say this is the answer. It's, it's hopefully to say like here are some ways to maybe think about it and maybe, you know, that'll inspire you to think about it on your own a little bit more at a totally disagree with us or or whatever the case may be. So all right. Well let's see.
01:06:44:09 - 01:06:52:14
Clark
As we wrap up here. I can't believe it, dude, we are almost done. We have almost covered every single lesson. And Herzog's best in class.
01:06:52:18 - 01:07:00:18
Cullen
Who the next few are quite different. Quite different. So we're going to jump all about careers from career strategies.
01:07:00:18 - 01:07:10:05
Clark
So this is something that was really, I don't think, touched on or at least at least very little so far. So right next week, Lesson 24 Career strategy, I think.
01:07:10:05 - 01:07:11:16
Cullen
Which is great because we're both right in the middle.
01:07:12:03 - 01:07:36:05
Clark
Right in the middle. So and then less than 25 will be life as a filmmaker, and then we are basically done. Totally amazing. So I look forward to that. But Cullen, thank you so much, dude, for your willingness to kind of just kind of jump in here and kind of wrestle with some of these larger challenging ideas. I really enjoyed it and hopefully everybody out there did as well.
01:07:36:16 - 01:07:37:20
Clark
So until next time.
01:07:37:22 - 01:07:46:15
Cullen
Yep. See you guys.