Speaker 1
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast Episode 20, where we will be covering today less than 24 and 25, which are the two final lessons of the Herzog Masterclass. Of course, I'm joined by Clark Coffey, as always.
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Clark
Or as always. Hey, Cullen.
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Speaker 1
It's it's gonna be a fun one. This one actually is you know we've been talking about specifically documentary for the past few lessons and now we get to talk what I think is really a great way to kind of end this section of our podcast, which is all about career strategy. It's all about life as a filmmaker. So not necessarily the techniques or anything like that, but rather a.
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Clark
Lot of a lot of like a mix of practical, pragmatic strategies and philosophy, which is kind of I feel like what, you know, this whole podcast thus far has been. And, you know, one of the things that I really love about Herzog's masterclass in general is that, you know, I find his philosophy on art, his philosophy on filmmaking is quite helpful for me.
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Clark
Yeah. You know, he Herzog talks about, you know, and we're going to get into this, but he talks about one of the ways that you deal with rejection and life as a filmmaker is to fill yourself with philosophy. I love that he uses that word with poetry and philosophy. But Herzog's kind of philosophy is a big part of what I use to fill myself up when I'm feeling down.
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Clark
But yeah, even though we're in the last couple lessons of Herzog's masterclass, it is important to note that it is not going to be the last episode of the podcast.
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Speaker 1
Yes, you.
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Clark
Know, I'm really excited about, you know, not that not that following these lessons hasn't been fun. I thoroughly enjoyed it, but it's pretty exciting that we're get to move forward and a new path now. Yes, we're still focusing on cinema and utilizing Herzog's output, so to speak, as a jumping off point to to study film and the philosophy of cinema and filmmaking.
00:02:07:04 - 00:02:16:14
Clark
But yeah, it's going to be exciting. We're going to, we're going to we've got some interviews that we're going to line up people who've worked with Herzog. We've got his films.
00:02:16:20 - 00:02:33:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, we're going to go through his films. I think it's also important to note, if you are interested in us talking about a specific topic, then reach out to us via Facebook or email or whatever, right? And please, yeah, let us know. We're talking about Twitter. We've got Instagram as well. So all the you know, all the searching is open.
00:02:33:20 - 00:02:44:05
Speaker 1
So, you know, message us on there and let us know if you like. There's a topic that you really want to talk. Of course, you know, especially considering that it's only us doing this. It's only has two. We don't have a team of anyone right now that.
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Clark
We well, you know, there's.
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Speaker 1
There's.
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Clark
I've got I.
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Speaker 1
Guess you've got your you've got your whole production.
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Clark
Team. I've got a whole production team here so Yeah.
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Speaker 1
But I think it's, it's important to note that we can kind of again make these decisions that we don't have. We don't have like.
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Clark
Six.
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Speaker 1
Lines that we go like, it must be 50 minutes. So, you know, we might if there's an if there's an interesting topic that only takes us 25 minutes to cover know we might do. Yeah, exactly. We might do that.
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Clark
So and then we'll sing show tunes for the Yes. 25. Exactly about around other but yeah we're.
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Speaker 1
Telling my baby I'll. Oh my God Yeah.
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Clark
It's like but we're totally open and hey you know what? If you just want to say nice things to us, you know, we're totally open to that too. And I guess God knows we need it. If you even want to say mean things, I mean, you know, maybe you should reevaluate your life, but no, but, but, but have criticisms were certainly open too.
00:03:33:12 - 00:03:44:07
Clark
But yes, we'd love to hear from you. And I think these two lessons are going to be fun. And it's really exciting that we get to tackle some some different content moving forward. So, yeah.
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Speaker 1
Well, with that or the way let's.
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Clark
Talk about it.
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Speaker 1
Yeah. The first point he makes, which again is something that he kind of reiterates several times to the whole masterclass, would be your own film school and.
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Clark
Film school, you know, around the world just love Werner Herzog.
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Speaker 1
I guess he's the easy he's their spokesperson. But but I mean, I think that the you know, what we've said again, is is quite in line with that. For those of you who don't know who you know, I've mentioned a few times that maybe I might be Mr. Forgotten, but so I do teach a film class to high school students.
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Speaker 1
YouTube or YouTube. Exactly. I know. How dare I? But I, of course, always naturally, because they're like most of my students are either, you know, finishing high school or in or early high school. Yeah, I inevitably get a lot of questions about film school because these kids are naturally moving on to that stage of their life. Right. So I get this question all the time about, like, do I go to film school?
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Speaker 1
Did you go to film school, did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I neither me or you went to film school and but what I always say is like I'm not quite on the anti the total anti film school stance that that Herzog's on I am or am I think that like for me had I gone to film school I don't think I would have gotten value out of it because so much of it was so much of what I spent my life doing before.
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Speaker 1
You know, I had the opportunity to go to any film schools was was doing exactly what they teach you in self teaching. But there were a lot of people who either don't have the opportunity to do that or don't have the you know, I was lucky enough to have friends that were really into film so I could make movies with them.
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Speaker 1
There are some people that don't have that.
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Clark
Or access to equipment or. Absolutely. You know, I think some of the you know, some of the things that Herzog points out I think are important to reiterate here. I mean, just that, you know, generally speaking, any film school that you're going to go to of any decent repute is going to be very expensive. Yeah, at least to me, I guess.
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Clark
You know, you know, obviously, this is going to be relative depending on a person's specific financial situation.
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Speaker 1
But and I mean, especially to geographically to.
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Clark
Yeah, it's a lot of money and and I do believe that in today's day and age there is a you know, there's there's a tremendous amount of information available to most of us. If you have access to a computer and the Internet, you have access to an extraordinary wealth of information in regards to, you know, the technical, logistical and, you know, aspects of filmmaking.
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Clark
And Herzog mentions in this lesson, it's like, hey, you know, you can learn the the the fundamentals of the art of filmmaking in a couple of weeks. And I think, you know, if you consider essentials, you know, kind of like the bare bones of, you know, how do you turn on a camera and how do you operate it.
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Speaker 1
And what are the different shot types of things like that.
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Clark
Is a little short. I think it's going to take you a little bit longer if you're actually, you know, going to operate camera, you're you know, you're going to be editing, you're going to work in some kind of post-production. I mean, it's going to take you a little more than two weeks. But I think for the most part, this kind of stands, you know, you can certainly learn how to operate a camera.
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Clark
You can learn the fundamentals of how to set up shots. You can learn the fundamentals of kind of story structure and writing quite.
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Speaker 1
Quickly and quite for free.
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Clark
And and there are software options available for free or very low cost that you can use to edit your own work at home of it, there's tons of tutorial videos for how to use this software. And then heck, at the end of it all, you have a kind of a way to distribute it, you.
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Speaker 1
Know, a little repertoire for.
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Clark
Nothing.
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Speaker 1
Or I mean, that to me is also that's the thing. So because I, you know, I have applied to film schools and mostly in the States. So I do know the courses there. It's cheap, much cheaper here.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Speaker 1
But even so it's still it's still quite expensive, you know, for an investment. And I think that you could spend, you know, it's usually about seven grand a year here.
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Clark
Do you remember kind of what some of those programs cost here in the U.S.? Because I've never.
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Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. Well, so okay. So, so USC is something like 70 grand. It's out of state now. It's also for me coming from Canada. Yeah that's no yeah I year NYU is something like 40 grand U.t. So UT-Austin something like 30 to high forties May or high thirties forties. So yeah, very expensive was.
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Clark
Right These are for your programs and exactly this is not room and board.
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Speaker 1
So take that money and put it into a movie is saying.
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Clark
Well that's what and that's certainly what Herzog's Yeah.
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Speaker 1
But in here even though it's like so here it would be more, you know, to go to a film school here it's about seven grand, I would say 7 to 10 grand a semester nursery a year. What was.
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Clark
That? Nothing to sneeze at, though. Still.
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Speaker 1
Yeah. No, totally. And that's what I mean is that you can still take the ten grand that you're putting in to go to film school here if you're Canadian or maybe if you're in Europe somewhere. Yeah, put that into a movie. And that's kind of or I mean at the end of the day to what I always tell my students is like, look up, you know, these curriculums are all freely available online, look them up, you know, research the school that you're looking at because a lot of times it is also just like whether someone's parents pushing them to just get a degree or something like that.
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Speaker 1
But just look up these these curriculums and go, am I going to learn something right? AM Or rather, is it worth what is what I'm learning? They're worth the amount of money that I would spend on it, or can I better spend my time and save money and learn more, which is what I did? I mean, I know.
00:09:15:01 - 00:09:41:08
Clark
There is sort of this that we haven't touched on yet, but I think maybe maybe the only thing I'm not sure there's a couple of things I think you can't replicate with the DIY approach. The first is, and these are both really closely related, basically, and the first is kind of an I really don't want a relationship building, I don't want to use this word networking, and we're going to get to this later on in more detail because it's part of these lessons.
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Clark
But, you know, relationship building there, you know, you're going to be in a in a within a group of a lot of people who are wanting to be filmmakers. Ideally, the program if it let's say you do take this route the the your teachers, the professors, the faculty there hopefully have had real world experience. They've actually had some success in the industry.
00:10:01:05 - 00:10:27:21
Clark
And so they actually have contacts where there's intern placement or job placement programs there at the school to help you start your career whenever you've graduated. You know, some of those things are really important and and developing real long term relationships with those faculty and your peers can really give you a powerful leg up. Yeah. And like I said, we're going to go into that in more detail.
00:10:27:21 - 00:10:32:00
Clark
But I think that's the part that you can't replicate. In the same way.
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Speaker 1
You don't have the infrastructure.
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Clark
Obviously you're going to develop your own relationships. Of course, you know, as you work, you're going to develop your own relationships, but.
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Speaker 1
You.
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Clark
It's a massive but.
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Speaker 1
Perhaps that leads us into our next point, which is really important, which is again, kind of like I said, we're it's it's what's great about film school is that you have infrastructure for meeting people and for working with people and for renting equipment like it's all there.
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Clark
For you. Hold your hand for you.
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Speaker 1
Yeah.
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Clark
But if you don't have that.
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Speaker 1
What's difficult outside of it is that you don't have that. But it doesn't mean that you can't make it. And Herzog makes a really interesting point, which is about that nowadays. So few young people to make their own. They don't make their own production companies. They don't, you know, form labor movements. And they or labor.
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Clark
You have.
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Speaker 1
Do things like that. So I it's a point that really speaks to me because I've spent the last three or so years building up my own production company. Yeah, with other people, like not just solely. Absolutely. And I think that that to me has been like a godsend. Like it. I don't think I'd be doing nearly the stuff that I'm doing right now if I didn't kind of invest into the infrastructure of being able to make movies with other people under a banner and under something that's organized and not just me going to friends being like, I got this script, you know, what's let's.
00:11:48:15 - 00:12:10:15
Clark
Do or waiting or waiting for somebody to invite you to be a part of production. Yeah, that's what I think a lot of people do, is that they wait, you know, whatever, whatever, you know, part you want to play in the filmmaking process. If you want to be a director or if you want to be an actor, if you want to be a writer, if you want to be a, you know, any of these positions, I think a lot of people have a tendency to wait to be invited, right?
00:12:10:20 - 00:12:14:20
Speaker 1
Yes. Yeah. They think they sit on Facebook looking at like casting calls and.
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Clark
An immediate you're constantly submitted. You're working on your real and your resumé and you're you know, and I guess there's nothing wrong with that to an extent, of course. But at least for me, I was made keenly aware of the fact that I had to take my own initiative if I was ever going to have any kind of career and get to do anything in this industry.
00:12:32:17 - 00:12:50:16
Clark
When I set out to pursue acting and first write and, you know, the way I first did that, of course, was, you know, I did everything that I was quote unquote supposed to do. I took my classes, I got my professional headshots. I did you know, I went to these you know, did all my mailings and went to, you know, workshops and all this kind of jazz.
00:12:50:16 - 00:12:56:08
Clark
And it was all my energy was put in to please God, somebody invite me.
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Speaker 1
Somebody know this part of the process.
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Clark
Please, somebody let me be a part of filmmaking. Please let me be a part of filmmaking. Yeah. And and I had already had strong interest in doing other aspects of filmmaking, including directing. But it was really that process of several years of having to beg to be invited to be a part of the process, that I finally realized, look, if I don't take my own initiative, if I don't start writing my own material, producing my own material, shooting my own material, you know, if I, I won't have any idea, you know, who knows how long I'm going to have to sit here and wait.
00:13:32:02 - 00:13:42:15
Clark
And I so of course, a lot of my friends with the same thing. And so there, you know, there was there was a group of us that continued to just do the same thing. They just kept submitting. They kept working on getting agents or changing agents. They kept you know.
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Speaker 1
I think it's interesting, too, that you mentioned reel the like the reels, because I think that so many people that's like their their end goal, they're shooting everything in. They're real. They're shooting. You know, anything that they do, it's, oh, I'm, I'm going to this is my real I found the success that I've had with making connections and stuff has always been from just showing people things that I've made in full, not just showing someone a real, you know, showing somebody.
00:14:05:09 - 00:14:16:08
Speaker 1
Okay, here's a short that I did last year and letting them watch. You know what? What's the point of making someone watch a four minute reel if you could just make them watch an eight minute short film that you did? And Well, that's a.
00:14:16:08 - 00:14:18:17
Clark
Big difference on who you're giving it to, right?
00:14:18:17 - 00:14:19:10
Speaker 1
Yes. Yeah.
00:14:19:11 - 00:14:39:11
Clark
You know, if you if you are talking to somebody that you actually know in real life that you have a relationship with in some way, whether you've worked on a project before together or maybe you have, you know, just a one or two degree separation and you know, this is we talk about we're going to talk a lot about the importance of relationships and long term vision of your career.
00:14:39:15 - 00:15:06:12
Clark
So if you're looking at somebody like that, yeah, they're going to watch an eight minute short. But the challenges is that a lot of people are shooting off their reels to people that, you know, again, they're falling back to that previous category about they're begging somebody to give them a chance, to give them a shot. And those people who don't know you from Adam or Eve, who you know, are looking at, you know, literally 10,000 submissions on for an actor.
00:15:06:12 - 00:15:25:21
Clark
But maybe it's, you know, 100 or 1000 for DP or director or something. But they're looking through tons of them. They're definitely not going to watch an eight minute short film of yours. And so that's why people put these sizzles together, right? Yes, because they know they're sending them off to somebody who is not who's literally going to touch turn it off and go to the next one in 2 seconds if it doesn't grab their attention.
00:15:25:21 - 00:15:27:01
Clark
So, you know, that's.
00:15:27:03 - 00:15:36:07
Speaker 1
That's I mean, that's what I and that's what's really important is you kind of have to at some point and as as vague and as broad as it sounds, is like make your own opportunities.
00:15:36:11 - 00:15:37:02
Clark
Of course you do.
00:15:37:17 - 00:15:46:18
Speaker 1
And and I think that that's that's what's really, you know, again, going back to this idea of like found your own production company, you know, get a group of people together and.
00:15:46:19 - 00:15:49:05
Clark
If you don't. Right. And if you find if you sign papers.
00:15:49:12 - 00:16:09:00
Speaker 1
You know, sign in and say like, hey, we're going to work together. We're going to we're going to make it. That's what that's basically what United Artists was. I mean, you think of how successfully that one and it was. It's about, you know, it doesn't have to be all about financials. It doesn't have to be all about, you know, oh, we're going to be a business and we're all about branding and we're going to get.
00:16:09:10 - 00:16:09:17
Clark
Y.
00:16:09:23 - 00:16:10:14
Speaker 1
Y Z.
00:16:10:17 - 00:16:33:23
Clark
When you're really in the beginning, you know, I think a lot of people tend to or some people focus a lot on that about, oh my gosh, what's going to happen? It, you know, they get worried about stuff that is, let's face it, frankly, very unlikely to occur. Yeah. How many points do you get? You know, I think and we've talked about this in previous in a previous lesson, keep that stuff very, very, very, very simple and don't spend a ton of time on it.
00:16:33:23 - 00:16:35:09
Clark
Just make it simple, you know, an.
00:16:35:10 - 00:16:37:10
Speaker 1
Envoy, avoid legalese and all that and.
00:16:37:10 - 00:16:53:13
Clark
Don't put a lot of legal BS and B.S. into this. What you should be spending your time on. Is it, you know, finding that story and putting a small team of people together who can execute it. And so it's like I was going to say, if you if you are a writer, then great, right? If you're not a writer, then go find one and work with them.
00:16:53:18 - 00:17:10:03
Clark
If you don't want a DP or you know, and you you feel like that's not a part of your repertoire as a director, then you go and find a deep that you can work well with. Find a group of actors that you can work well with and build a team of people who you have, you know, similar mindsets and attitudes about filmmaking.
00:17:10:08 - 00:17:11:11
Clark
And it's going to take time.
00:17:11:22 - 00:17:12:14
Speaker 1
And I also.
00:17:12:14 - 00:17:18:07
Clark
I think it's like it's like it's easy to say, but it's taken me a decade.
00:17:18:13 - 00:17:31:22
Speaker 1
Well, and I exactly wanted to mention that, too, because I like we're talking I think one of the things that we talk about a lot and what Herzog talks about a lot is like, go out and do it. Go out and do it. But we never you know, we've we've kind of never really talked about the struggles and the difficulties.
00:17:31:22 - 00:17:52:23
Speaker 1
So I Oh, yeah, I'll I'll talk about right now is what you know with with my production company that Oh totally and rejection and all that but but for me you know I'm right now we've been doing it for three years professionally. I mean I'm going to be making movies for much longer than that. But since, you know, actually kind of in supporting this this production company, it's been about three years.
00:17:54:00 - 00:18:11:00
Speaker 1
And we're right now we're just working right now in pre-production on our first feature. But there's a lot of difficulty with that. You know, it comes down to like we don't have you know, I'm not going to go out and tell anyone to just go out and make a movie and and throw all their money into it, because I can't do that.
00:18:11:00 - 00:18:34:21
Speaker 1
And most people can't. Whereas what I've found, though, that makes my life a lot easier is a taking it slow, not feeling any need to rush into it because there is a point, you know, months ago where I could have just been like, Yeah, our script's done. Let's go film this, you know, at a friend's house and, and we've got a feature and it's like, No, no, no, I do not want to do that.
00:18:34:21 - 00:18:58:01
Speaker 1
And nobody should just want to rush anything. I think that's something that there's a difference between having drive and initiative and rushing. There's a really big difference. And so that's one thing I feel like I've been very I've pushed back the shoot date multiple times, both because of the pandemic and because of just preparation. Yeah, So that's of course been a challenge.
00:18:58:04 - 00:18:59:20
Clark
And even but be prepared.
00:18:59:22 - 00:19:20:03
Speaker 1
And I mean, even the idea I know that you had the one that you're working on right now had done it has done a successful crowdfunding campaign. And that's something that we've spoken about when it comes to the production of the feature I'm working on is but we're rather we're taking a little bit a different approach, which is let's put let's try to do this all on our own.
00:19:20:03 - 00:19:29:23
Speaker 1
And at the point where we need financing, then we can look into crowdfunding and stuff like that. So kind of the opposite, the opposite, I guess, order of.
00:19:30:09 - 00:19:31:18
Clark
Different ways to do it, right? Yeah, but.
00:19:31:19 - 00:19:32:08
Speaker 1
Exactly.
00:19:32:08 - 00:19:50:10
Clark
But the point is you're taking initiative. Yeah. And I think you bring up a really good point, you know, because we have talked so much about urgency throughout this entire series. It's something that Herzog is clearly has very strong opinions about. And, you know, I think you're right. It's a good point that you can work with urgency. Absolutely.
00:19:50:16 - 00:20:02:07
Clark
And, you know, I think, you know, taking initiative with urgency is so vital. Those two things go hand in hand together. But but also, though, being prepared, I mean, Herzog has spent years preparing for some of these films.
00:20:02:07 - 00:20:08:07
Speaker 1
It's not Well, he says about the first you know, everyone says, I loved your first movie, Aguirre Aguirre. It was so great. And he says, That was my 11th.
00:20:08:07 - 00:20:29:06
Clark
It's my 11th, right? Yeah, right, exactly. And so that's a really good point to make. You know, it's take initiative, but also take some time, work with a sense of urgency. But but be prepared. Learn from your mistakes because you're going to make a lot and you're also going to have a lot of rejection. That's something that Herzog talks a lot about here in this lesson 24.
00:20:29:11 - 00:21:00:22
Clark
And boy, I it's funny because I feel like I am I am an expert on very few things, but holy crap, am I an expert on failure or rejection? Let's say rejection and it feels like failure. And this is an interesting kind of part psychologically about this. But yeah, I mean, you know, as I've said numerous times before, I started working toward a career professionally as a storyteller, as an acting, that's where I, you know, I first like I, I'm in L.A., I've got to professional agents.
00:21:01:02 - 00:21:23:13
Clark
I am, you know, actively pursuing a career as an actor in the L.A. market. You know, boom, I'm there, right? Wow. Oh, my gosh. I mean, you know, up until that point in my life and I was younger, but I but not too young. I mean, I was 30 years old by the time I was like at it, you know, in L.A., in market profession, like pursuing a professional acting career.
00:21:23:13 - 00:21:27:12
Clark
So it's not like I had not lived before. It wasn't like I just fell off.
00:21:27:15 - 00:21:29:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, you weren't. They weren't just out of high school.
00:21:29:13 - 00:21:51:17
Clark
I had had I had had a decade long career professional career in the corporate world, in software before that. And so it's know, it's not like I was a spring chicken and wow, the amount of rejection that I was just that I was hit with like a mack truck just over and over and over. I wasn't prepared for a frankly, I just was not prepared for it.
00:21:51:17 - 00:22:18:15
Clark
And it knocked me off my feet and it took me years to recover from that experience. And so I, I feel so strongly about this. And you may say, well, acting is way different and it's not all you know, filmmaking is just a ruthless profession. It is extremely difficult. If you want to make cut and dry. Yeah, if you want to make a living doing any of these things, it is extremely difficult.
00:22:18:15 - 00:22:48:18
Clark
If you want any kind of any any decently sized audience to ever see any of your work. It is extremely, exceedingly difficult. It is so hard now it's worth it. But how you address rejection is so important to if you're even going to survive. Mm hmm. I cannot tell you how It's been such an interesting experience to be in that position myself and to see how that that rejection affected me and to see how it affected so many of my friends and to see the different types of reactions to it.
00:22:49:10 - 00:23:05:09
Clark
I it it's just really been eye opening. I mean, for me personally, you know, it it was I and I went into this and I'm thinking, okay, I know you get a lot of rejection. I know you get you know, and I was trying to prepare myself psychologically. And I you know, I had some mentors who had been in the industry industry.
00:23:05:09 - 00:23:23:21
Clark
And, you know, I had been preparing for this for a while, Right. So it wasn't just like I on a whim kind of decision to go out there. I mean, I had been preparing for about a decade and I had worked in theater before that, and it's in significant places. And in Colorado and Denver. And so I'd had a sense of these things, right?
00:23:23:21 - 00:23:42:22
Clark
It's not that I didn't have a sense of it, but even with all of that, I was completely blown away, man. I mean, I have a spreadsheet that I used to keep of every audition that I ever went on, right? And I would because I would keep track of, you know, which casting director brought me in and what project was it for and how did I feel like the audition went and, you know, and what happened, Right?
00:23:42:22 - 00:23:58:12
Clark
Did I get a callback? Did I get that I booked that gut job, whatever, so I could see I had a record, right? And I can't remember now exactly what my ratio was. But suffice it to say, I mean, we're talking hundreds and hundreds of no's just over and over and and.
00:23:58:23 - 00:24:20:11
Speaker 1
That's exactly what's important, too, about this whole like the amount of times that I've made a movie and been like, this is the best thing I've ever made. Still, you know, like you said, still sort of like while submitting to festivals or whatever, kind of going, okay, I'm prepared tonight. You know, it's festivals, but still it feels kind of crushing when you get that rejection, when you get especially when it's like it's like, okay, this one's really good.
00:24:20:11 - 00:24:40:22
Speaker 1
This one's going to go in with that, though. And I think this is one of the points that that Herzog really drives home, too, which I think is really important, is that you shouldn't make movies for festivals. You know, I've never once when I'm making a movie, cut something or change something because I've thought that like a festival screener isn't going to like it.
00:24:41:20 - 00:25:03:07
Speaker 1
I have always, always, you know, maybe that's a maybe that's something that I should work on myself. But but I it's something that I still believe that, like I am, I'm not interested in the art. You know, I have a friend who went to film school and his I think I've spoken about this before on the podcast, but but his, his no is always because of his, you know, his teachers and professors and stuff.
00:25:03:07 - 00:25:24:10
Speaker 1
They would always say, you know, your festival thing should be as short as possible. And you always know it is always like cut 2 minutes, just like arbitrarily cut to rates. And I'm always like, I don't care if a festival thinks my. The other thing too about that though and there's a video on YouTube somewhere about this, but it actually talks about the most successful festival movies and the movies that get to like the short films.
00:25:24:10 - 00:25:36:19
Speaker 1
I mean, they get to the Oscars and stuff. They're almost always above 15 minutes. The Oscar shorts are always, almost always, whereas everyone says that sweet spot is eight, you know, just under 8 minutes for festivals.
00:25:37:02 - 00:25:39:02
Clark
Everybody has got an idea of what the sweet spot.
00:25:39:02 - 00:26:01:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. And so I think that's really interesting is that like, you should take any information like that with a grain of salt because sure it does your film have a greater likelihood of getting into a festival if it's 4 minutes than if it's ten? Yes, because they want to fit as many movies in and slots in. But with that being said, does that actually impact the the the like the amount of reverence that your film will have there?
00:26:01:17 - 00:26:09:23
Speaker 1
No, because if your film is short, it's often just going to be washed in with all the other really short films and people. Whereas if you make a great that's like, you know.
00:26:10:04 - 00:26:35:11
Clark
Yeah, I mean, this is an important point. I'll, I'll kind of extrapolate this or I'll kind of raise this up to even kind of more encompassing level. I mean, look, we're talking about rejection now and we're talking about, you know, this I really can't overstate you cannot overstate how important it is to steal yourself and fortify yourself against rejection, because there's there's so many way, you know, so many ways that it affects people.
00:26:35:11 - 00:26:50:09
Clark
And it's not just cut and dried binary like, well, you know, you're either in the game or you're out of the game and, you know, as long as you just stay in the game, you have you have defeated rejection. No. You know, a lot of people get in many very different ways, get they get kind of jaded, cynical.
00:26:50:09 - 00:27:06:23
Clark
They get, yeah, you're trying to second guess an audience. You're like, you're just describing somebody trying to, you know, guess what? The judges are looking for in this film festival and then gear their content to that. And that's such a horrifically cynical national.
00:27:06:23 - 00:27:07:14
Speaker 1
Got to make.
00:27:07:17 - 00:27:08:13
Clark
Art in my.
00:27:08:13 - 00:27:22:04
Speaker 1
Especially considering that festivals are hardly like hardly ever the way to get into a further career unless you are somehow so success ful that you're going to get into one of like the big six.
00:27:22:07 - 00:27:22:13
Clark
Right.
00:27:22:19 - 00:27:46:05
Speaker 1
Which are, you know, Sundance, TIFF, Con, maybe South by Southwest and like Tribeca or something like that, or in a few other international ones. Yeah. Like unless you are successful enough to get a prime slot in any because I also know people who have gotten into those even like TIFF who have gotten into those. But, you know, they're they're movies playing in a tiny theater at 1 p.m. on a Wednesday.
00:27:46:05 - 00:27:54:18
Speaker 1
And it's like, you know, six people went to it. So I think that what you should focus on I think what what you're saying what I'm saying, what Herzog has always said.
00:27:54:19 - 00:27:57:00
Clark
The story in your head is, is it focuses.
00:27:57:02 - 00:28:27:08
Speaker 1
Well, and I'll quote him directly here, which is create something with so much substance that the film itself can take the punches. And that's so important because you should just don't strive to make something that, you know, again, like you said, that is the judgment of love in your art. Yeah. And just you're at something really good. And, you know, one of the I just I just got into a festival the other day with the documentary that I've been doing, a short documentary, but it's 18 minutes, I guarantee you had I shown that to two people and said like, yeah, I'm trying to get to festivals, like give me some feedback.
00:28:27:15 - 00:28:42:16
Speaker 1
So many people would have been like, It can't be 8 minutes. It should be 10 minutes, right? Yeah, I guarantee that. But I just got in on an 18 minute thing because I put a lot of heart into it and I put, you know, I think it's a I thought it was a really strong documentary. And I think that it's, you know, and it's I was really happy with it.
00:28:42:16 - 00:28:43:19
Speaker 1
So I got it. And it's.
00:28:44:09 - 00:28:45:00
Clark
And it feels.
00:28:45:00 - 00:28:45:15
Speaker 1
Really great.
00:28:45:15 - 00:29:08:08
Clark
But it is it's it's really easy to say. It's like, I really sympathize because I've been there myself. I've been there myself as an actor in the extreme where I tried everything I could possibly think of to change myself. Yes, Yes. What the casting directors wanted to to, like, fit myself into some mold that I thought was going to work.
00:29:08:08 - 00:29:37:09
Clark
And I did it over and over and over and over. And so I just I just want to kind of reiterate, it's not not like you should feel sorry for me, but that, like, I really do understand the temptation that comes when you're rejected over and over again and you're guessing you're second guessing yourself and you're you're you're trying to find a way to to make your way in this art, like, all you want to do is make films and you can't find a way to do it.
00:29:37:09 - 00:29:48:13
Clark
And the world is telling, you know, it's you know, it's totally understandable. I've been there myself, and maybe it's just a process that, you know, everybody kind of has to go through on their own, right.
00:29:48:13 - 00:30:09:22
Speaker 1
Because this is super important to what Herzog says, too, is about. Don't don't only spend your time doing this. You know, that's the time he tells the story about the guy that he met that had been in like 100 festivals just following it around. And Herzog says in that time, in the time that you've been following your movie at festivals and submitting and and spending money, you could have made three other previous films.
00:30:09:22 - 00:30:28:06
Speaker 1
And that's that's exactly like I will, I submit to a festival and I forget about it. I step back, you know, maybe if there's communication that I need to update or something with them, that I will. But, but my I, I submit a movie if I, if I am going to submit it to festival, I submit it and I forget about it, I immediately go my next my next project.
00:30:28:08 - 00:30:35:09
Clark
It's so huge. There's a couple, you know, look like having a life that's outside of this bubble is so important for a couple big.
00:30:35:09 - 00:30:35:23
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:36:04 - 00:30:57:17
Clark
For one is that you've always got to be filling your well and you can't just be working in the industry or working toward the industry or making films or do you or you have to have a life, you have to have a life that you can pull new poetry from, that you can create new images from when you are making film.
00:30:57:17 - 00:31:13:11
Clark
And I know I know a lot of people just get obsessed and they're like, I mean, I have it's like I know some filmmakers who it's like they have their day set. It's like I wake up at 5 a.m. and then I write for 2 hours and then I make phone calls to my potential agents for 2 hours.
00:31:13:11 - 00:31:25:14
Clark
And then I and it's like their entire day is just filled because they're like, I have to make it. I have to make it. And this is how I have to make it. I have to, like, outwork. I have to outwork the next person. I, you know, like kind of the. Will Smith kind of.
00:31:25:14 - 00:31:30:04
Speaker 1
Yeah, right. Yeah. No, Yeah. Smith Day grind. It's all about the grind. You wake up and.
00:31:30:08 - 00:31:43:11
Clark
It's like I'm successful because I stayed on the treadmill longer than anybody else. I just ran and ran and ran and I'm like, well, interestingly, I mean, look at what kind of actor he is and it's telling. I think that that's his attitude.
00:31:43:11 - 00:32:07:05
Speaker 1
But yeah, no, I will always say that. It's more like I have got to hand it to my students. I've said it's more about your skill set than it is about your your like blind perseverance. And I say blind perseverance because, I mean, there are people that just think that's important, but it oh, it's totally important. But I mean, that there's this there's this mindset that people like, get into, just like you just said, that it is kind of not to put down Will Smith or anything.
00:32:07:05 - 00:32:23:08
Speaker 1
But no, no, but this this mindset of like, as long as, you know, I, I just have to keep going and I have to keep trying and I got to keep climbing that mountain, it's like, are you while you're climbing this mountain, are you also working on your skills? Are you also going out or and working on other skills?
00:32:23:08 - 00:32:25:17
Speaker 1
I mean, are you having a life.
00:32:25:17 - 00:32:32:23
Clark
Your significant other with your family? Are you out enjoying sunsets? Are you eating an ice cream cone on the beach? Are you traveling or.
00:32:32:23 - 00:32:49:09
Speaker 1
Even just having different different interests? You know, I went, yeah, so I didn't go to film school, but I went to university. I went to the University of Toronto for a for criminology. I didn't finish the degree, but I went and people always ask me if I when I was going there, it was like, are you going? Because it's something that you're, you know, something to do with film.
00:32:49:14 - 00:33:06:15
Speaker 1
You know, you're going in for criminology because you like crime dramas and no, I want to go to criminology because I was interested in it. You know, It's the same with I have a desire by the end of my twenties to have my pilot's license. Got nothing to do with movies. I just it's an interest of mine. I like politics, I like law, I like history.
00:33:06:20 - 00:33:14:20
Speaker 1
These are all things that I will spend time reading about and doing, not so that I can generate ideas for movies just because I'm interested in them. And you know.
00:33:15:05 - 00:33:42:10
Clark
You can fill the well. And also it is, you know, Herzog talks about filling yourself with philosophy. With poetry. Yes. Yes. As a, you know, kind of like a prophylactic against burnout and against all this rejection. And, you know, this is that something taking the time to follow other interests, to pursue other curiosities, to work on relationships with people in your life, you know, your your significant other, your family, your friends.
00:33:42:10 - 00:33:53:18
Clark
I mean, you know, to be outside in the world, to travel, you know, it's just as if not more important to do those things than it is to do all the other filmmaking things combined.
00:33:54:00 - 00:33:55:06
Speaker 1
Mm hmm. And I do.
00:33:55:16 - 00:33:56:02
Clark
Yeah.
00:33:56:05 - 00:33:56:20
Speaker 1
Sorry. Go ahead.
00:33:57:00 - 00:34:24:22
Clark
I was just going to say, and it's just I know so many I have known so many people pursuing different positions, you know, different careers. But but in the filmmaking world, and I can't tell you how common it is that people get so single minded, they get so on one track. And it not only does it ultimately not end up being successful as far as having quote unquote, success in your career, but it also is not successful in the sense that it makes a really miserable person.
00:34:24:22 - 00:34:26:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's not fulfilling.
00:34:26:21 - 00:34:33:01
Clark
You're not it becomes you're going to take this to a place where it's no longer fun. Mm hmm. And and I know.
00:34:33:01 - 00:34:35:14
Speaker 1
People exactly who have burned out. Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:35:14 - 00:34:53:09
Clark
And we have this weird in our culture, you know, kind of Western culture, and I'm speaking only from that because that's where I'm kind of born and raised and that's why I know more about. So this might exist in other cultures, but I just can't speak for it because I'm not I'm not as tuned in, but, but in our culture, here it is.
00:34:53:12 - 00:35:02:11
Clark
We have this weird idea of what creativity is and that it has to be obsession and that you have to like, do nothing but right. It's like.
00:35:02:11 - 00:35:09:15
Speaker 1
If we romanticize that, that really psychotic person typing on their laptop with a cigaret and, you know, you.
00:35:10:05 - 00:35:34:19
Clark
Write and it's like you can't have a life. But anything I mean and I literally remember I mean, I remember being told over and over by different people when I was had first moved to L.A. and I was, you know, doing all the things and I had fall into that trap a bit myself. You know, people would tell me it's like, well, you can't have a relationship with if you're going to do this, you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't spend time on these.
00:35:34:19 - 00:35:36:05
Speaker 1
Other Oh, God, it's insane.
00:35:36:10 - 00:35:56:23
Clark
And and of course, these people were miserable themselves because that's what they were doing and they were miserable. So, yeah, I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but guys, ladies, everybody, you know, to be a filmmaker is not to just cut out everything in your life. What's the point of making a film if you have no life to tell stories from?
00:35:57:05 - 00:36:20:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. So all and to tell and to tell stories to. And I want to double back real quick to just one more point on the festivals thing as well. Yeah. Yeah. Because, because I worked at TIFF in 2019. Yeah. And there's this, there's this line that Herzog says in here that he doesn't really get into too much depth about, but I think that I can kind of speak to, which is both festivals are self-centered.
00:36:21:07 - 00:36:23:22
Speaker 1
He talks about this idea that, you know, festivals are.
00:36:23:22 - 00:36:24:20
Clark
Well, they're a business.
00:36:24:20 - 00:36:45:18
Speaker 1
They're a bit exactly. And so there's so not even so we are me and you talked about this before, but disregarding the idea to even that there's there's 4000 plus festivals that go on every year. I mean to anybody that's insane. Of course, not every single of those festivals, in fact very, very, very, very, very, very few of them are going to actually have the publicity to get you anywhere.
00:36:45:21 - 00:36:47:11
Clark
Very few.
00:36:47:11 - 00:37:14:00
Speaker 1
So there's kind of again, there's those big six that I kind of mentioned earlier. So I worked at TIFF, which is the Toronto International Film Festival, which is by attendance, the largest film festival in the world. And yeah, it's something like 400,000 or something a year. People go to it. It's it's a huge event. And so I worked there and I sort of saw a sort of got this inside look at, you know, how exactly how are these festival self centered?
00:37:14:00 - 00:37:22:15
Speaker 1
And the way that they are is they've become so much less about. And, you know, I I'm not trying to sound like an old man because I certainly wasn't alive.
00:37:22:15 - 00:37:24:03
Clark
In my job. Exactly.
00:37:24:12 - 00:37:52:08
Speaker 1
But I can I can actually kind of vouch for the idea that like back in the day, they were different. They were, you know, when these festivals started up in the seventies, eighties, nineties and even, you know, the early 2000s, they were very much about rising up and coming stars. In this day and age, most of the big festivals are headlined by blockbusters that are, you know, so like Joker, yeah, Jojo Rabbit Knives out, you know, all.
00:37:52:09 - 00:37:53:01
Clark
These features.
00:37:53:06 - 00:38:17:20
Speaker 1
Huge movies that that that were that are produced by Universal and Fox and all this and it's like I always just kind of and I understand from a business standpoint why the festivals do it because they get a ton of money, a ton of advertising, a ton of you know, butts in seats for this. It's good. But what I what what really pains me is just that I'm like, imagine giving one of those slots to somebody who made a really beautiful, wonderful film and.
00:38:18:12 - 00:38:19:01
Clark
Unknown.
00:38:19:04 - 00:38:29:08
Speaker 1
Who has no chance. And it's like and there absolutely are people like that who have submitted, who have been seen by these these judges who are now on the cutting block because it's not going to make them enough money.
00:38:29:15 - 00:38:32:01
Clark
Yeah, it's a business decision, man.
00:38:32:03 - 00:38:52:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. And a friend of mine actually, perhaps a success story from this, a friend of mine recently released. Well, he was he was in TIFF with his co-directing partner in TIFF in 2019, the one that I worked at for his film White Lie, which had a budget of about a million, one and a half million dollars, which was their biggest so far, undoubtedly.
00:38:52:15 - 00:39:09:12
Speaker 1
And they're very independent and like that. But this is a huge budget for them. And they and so they got in and I remember I went to their premiere. It was great. There was a lot of people in the theater and they've gotten a theatrical release from it. And it's it's wonderful. And it's like really heartwarming to see because it still can happen.
00:39:09:12 - 00:39:31:22
Speaker 1
You can make it happen. It's just so difficult. And I think a big part of that, too, is and this is this isn't related to festivals, but I think it's related to the the environment that in the kind of ecosystem of entertainment and film in particular these days, that Herzog also mentions the idea that that before movies rather than commercials, they used to play short films.
00:39:32:11 - 00:39:45:23
Speaker 1
And I think like and I so I, I look at somewhere though I look at somewhere like the New Beverly, the theater that Quentin Tarantino owns, which I think like, you know, he I don't know. I don't know what his financials are there at all. So I don't know how much he loses money.
00:39:45:23 - 00:39:46:16
Clark
It loses money.
00:39:46:22 - 00:39:47:21
Speaker 1
So it does. Okay. So it.
00:39:47:21 - 00:39:50:09
Clark
Does subsidize it, I think I think and.
00:39:50:10 - 00:40:07:12
Speaker 1
I know that there are I know that there are other movie theaters that I've been to and I've heard of that don't show commercials that it's like their policy. They don't show commercials. And it's they operate at a loss because they and it's usually you know, it's it's it's usually run by someone like Tarantino. Maybe they're not a director, but they're businessmen who can afford to lose the money.
00:40:07:15 - 00:40:23:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. What I think would be so cool and I think, you know, I think it would be great is if we went back to that. Like, imagine how cool it would be for a young filmmaker who makes a short film to have their film shown at The New Beverly just before. And it's like those things that it doesn't have to be long.
00:40:23:11 - 00:40:34:05
Speaker 1
It doesn't have to be crazy. Yeah, to be an event. It would just be so nice to be able to open up the doors to people who have otherwise, you know, the most impossible time breaking into an industry.
00:40:35:12 - 00:40:56:03
Clark
Well, and you know, it's and so obviously we could talk about this a little bit that, you know, there are other distribution channels, you know, and Herzog talks about, you know, this, of course, like, of course, everybody is striving. Well, you know, I don't I actually can't say that. I don't know, maybe there are directors out there now who are younger who could care less about a theatrical release.
00:40:56:03 - 00:41:01:14
Clark
I don't know, maybe. But, you know, certainly my generation and before ever.
00:41:01:14 - 00:41:02:18
Speaker 1
That was the be all end all.
00:41:02:22 - 00:41:28:14
Clark
Yeah. You would have a theatrical release. I mean, that's to see you know the whole point is to see your film on the big screen right. And to have a communal experience and you know, with an audience in, in a theater and with this, we don't want to go too far down that rabbit hole because there's a whole conversation we could have and maybe we will in another episode about, you know, the difference between watching a film at home on your television and watching it with an audience in a theater.
00:41:28:14 - 00:41:48:12
Clark
But that was the dream. Now we're having to adjust. You know, it's very unlikely. And when I say very unlikely, that's an understatement. I mean, it's almost an impossibility that you, as a director are going to have a film that is going to be theatrically released, at least, you know, unless you rent a theater and pay them to play it, right?
00:41:48:12 - 00:42:05:04
Clark
Yeah, some people do that for sure, but outside of that, to have an actual wide release is extremely rare. Very few films do now. There are a lot of online distribution possible parties, but even that, you know, is very challenging. It can look like a great opportunity. And it is.
00:42:05:04 - 00:42:10:13
Speaker 1
But but who knows? Maybe you sell your movie to Netflix and it's buried behind hundreds and hundreds of other titles.
00:42:10:15 - 00:42:28:10
Clark
And they're right. And so there are some more distribution opportunities, but they still are very, very difficult. And even if, like you said, and even if they do, I mean, I know people who've have their films on Amazon Prime or Netflix or Hulu or there are many different places now. And you know, there's like their metrics are like almost nothing.
00:42:28:10 - 00:42:45:12
Clark
Like nobody will watch it for months and months and months because it's they're, they're not curated into, you know, top of mind for people. So they sit down at the bottom of, you know, 5 million different TV shows and movies and just nobody is ever going to find it. So it's it's tough no matter which way you cut it.
00:42:45:12 - 00:43:12:00
Speaker 1
But perhaps I'm an optimist, too. Yeah, I might add. You know, but I think what's really exciting about right now is that the landscape is changing so much and think that I think that, you know, whether due to the pandemic or not, I think that you're going to see a pretty big uptick, honestly, in independent theaters, because I think a lot of these multiplexes are losing a lot of money.
00:43:12:00 - 00:43:32:11
Speaker 1
I think that I think this this whole push to streaming, I think what you're going to see a smaller, independent run, more financially viable theaters. And I you know that to me and I at least that's something that I've seen a lot in Toronto lately, is that there's like this huge uptick in small independent theaters that show, you know, independent film, which is great.
00:43:32:11 - 00:43:42:16
Speaker 1
I mean, it gives those movies an opportunity to be seen on the big screen. So maybe, again, maybe I'm just maybe I'm just an optimist. But but I think that I always.
00:43:42:16 - 00:43:43:21
Clark
Would love it. I would love it.
00:43:43:21 - 00:43:57:06
Speaker 1
I think we're kind of almost in a like a new wild west of the industry right now with online distribution, like where it is, nobody's quite sure where it's going to go and how it's going to play out. Yeah, it's.
00:43:57:06 - 00:43:57:23
Clark
Interesting.
00:43:57:23 - 00:44:29:19
Speaker 1
Can be sort of it can be sort of. And I think that right now is a perfect time to make of it what you can and to kind of take advantage of of every single avenue that you can take advantage of, whether that's online, you know, YouTube. I mean, that that's that's the other thing too is like you look at the landscape of YouTube, how much that changed over the past ten years where back when I started on YouTube in 2008, it was like you would see short films on the recommended page.
00:44:29:19 - 00:44:58:12
Speaker 1
You would you would see people, short films on the homepage, like being, you know, top ten videos of the week. And it's someone's, you know, World War Two short or something. And now that's almost impossible. Now, if I saw a lifestyle article like this. Yeah, or political like clickbait, because that's where the money was. But I think that again, I think there there's definitely a pendulum swing and I think that right now I see us kind of at the precipice of this really, really click baity.
00:44:58:14 - 00:45:16:16
Speaker 1
Everything's flashy, everything's lifestyle. I think that's and I think we're slowly now starting to swing backwards into it's kind of like I sort of relate it to like the analog renaissance of, you know, people going out and getting records again and people going out and shooting on film again and people, you know, picking up, you know. So I'm not I'm not a psychic.
00:45:16:16 - 00:45:23:10
Speaker 1
I don't know if it's going to happen again. But I think if you're not if you're not hopeful about it, then then you're just going to drive yourself insane. So.
00:45:23:11 - 00:45:43:09
Clark
Well, it's you know, it's a combination of I mean, it's you know, it's interesting, too. And, you know, Herzog makes film at it myself, and he makes movies, but he has made things for television. I think, you know, made things for streaming. He clearly makes things for streaming. And so, you know, part of it is being willing enough to be, you know, to be flexible.
00:45:43:17 - 00:46:08:16
Clark
So it's, you know, but but finding that and it's kind of right. This is just the way it is with all of the creative process. It's kind of, you know, where do you draw your line with your content and with your vision? But allowing flexibility to come in so that you don't define success so narrowly for yourself that it's impossible, you know, So, you know, maybe, yes, you're not going to be a director who has their films on 2600 screens across the country.
00:46:08:16 - 00:46:32:04
Clark
But but maybe you've got a film that you have your own website and you've set up your own, you know, like I know some people who actually instead of selling it to some other VOD distributor, they distribute it themselves. They set up a paywall, they have their own website, and maybe it's only a thousand people or something. Watch the film for five bucks a pop, but maybe that's a start, you know?
00:46:32:04 - 00:46:34:01
Clark
So there's so it's been I.
00:46:34:01 - 00:46:53:06
Speaker 1
Mean, my website has a paid I'm starting to put movies that I'm making that I think are warranted of, of the money or payment I'm putting them on on my website for a dollar and you know like it's not like I'm asking a lot but I think that it's just it's right it's a way to at least generate something and some buzz.
00:46:53:15 - 00:47:14:03
Speaker 1
I think also, and maybe to segway a little bit here, we talked a lot about skill set. And I think one of the things that we very much agree on is this idea that people, they will put a goal in their mind of like, I want to make a movie, like I want to be a filmmaker.
00:47:14:04 - 00:47:14:12
Clark
Right?
00:47:14:14 - 00:47:16:17
Speaker 1
And they don't really know what that entails. And I've actually dealt with this a lot.
00:47:16:19 - 00:47:19:02
Clark
Usually it's like, I want to be Steven Spielberg. Yeah.
00:47:19:23 - 00:47:54:20
Speaker 1
And that's what I said when I was three years old. Literally, that was yeah, that was my response to when somebody asked me what I want to set up, right? Steven Spielberg Yeah, And, but, but I've actually dealt with this a lot recently in my in my work life, which is is this idea of and especially with students of mine and stuff where it's it's they their desire it's like I want to direct and it's like well a good director understands you know in in the slightest every other position on set and is able to communicate those things and is able to understand, you know, how a camera works and how a lighting crew does
00:47:54:20 - 00:48:02:22
Speaker 1
their job and how a sound crew does a job in costumes, and you don't have to be an expert. And I think that's something we've reiterated several times on here, is that you don't have to go in and be the expert.
00:48:02:22 - 00:48:03:10
Clark
At special.
00:48:03:10 - 00:48:21:07
Speaker 1
Effects. You should be able to communicate. Yeah, it's about it's about being able to communicate with those people. And it's also about, you know, within the line of my production company is what I've tried to really stress. And what everyone's been very much on board with is that we all have different talents, We all have special, you know, things that we're good at.
00:48:21:07 - 00:48:43:12
Speaker 1
And yeah, so that let's say, you know what, good. My good friend Blair, who is one of the producers on the feature film, are doing, if we're doing a short film that Blair is directing and that I'm not directing, then I can jump in and do this cinematography for it and operate camera. Now, Mandy, who is a really talented director, she can be.
00:48:43:12 - 00:48:46:18
Speaker 1
She's like a fantastic lady as well. Yeah, say hello to Mandy.
00:48:47:08 - 00:48:47:22
Clark
But I'm just not.
00:48:47:22 - 00:48:49:13
Speaker 1
But she but I mean that's the thing is that she's.
00:48:49:13 - 00:48:50:00
Clark
So.
00:48:50:15 - 00:49:11:13
Speaker 1
She you know she's a fantastic first aid so when she's off not directing, when she's not directing, she's putting her skills in. My friend Michael was like a fantastic ideas. Like he just comes up with ideas constantly. And so, you know, that's kind of when you're trying to make yourself valuable to people and you're trying to make yourself, you know, or rather invaluable to people.
00:49:11:13 - 00:49:33:14
Speaker 1
And you want people to make sure that you they want you on their set and they want to be working with you at all times. Then find a way to do that and find out a way to extend Sandra's skill sets so that you don't just kind of come in and go, Well, I've studied directed direction and I know about shot types and shot composition, and I know all about directing actors and stuff like really, you know, work with yourself that you can, you can kind of a skill set.
00:49:33:15 - 00:49:54:02
Clark
And I think a parallel to this or, you know, it goes right along hand in hand with what you're saying, is that you've got to know what you want. You really do have to know what you want. Now, again, I'll use an analogy of my of my past life as an actor. You know, so many you know, I hit the streets in L.A. and, you know, it's kind of like, you know, you kind of like it's almost like classes, right?
00:49:54:02 - 00:50:15:18
Clark
I'm like the class of 2000 or whatever, you know, And and there's like another 200,000 people that just, you know, fall off the bus onto the streets in L.A. every year with you. Right. And, you know, I saw this happen. It's like, you know, almost everybody that that fell off that bus with me when I was there. All these new young, aspiring actors didn't know what in the world they actually really wanted to do.
00:50:15:18 - 00:50:17:23
Clark
It's like you said, they're just like, well, I want to be an actor.
00:50:18:12 - 00:50:20:11
Speaker 1
Okay, What does that entail?
00:50:20:11 - 00:50:34:15
Clark
But what does that well, but do you want to be a stage actor? Do you want to be do you want to act in television? Because television and commercials are so different. Do you want to do commercials? Do you want to do voiceover? Do you want to do mocap? Do you want to do you know? And they're like, Well, I'm an actor.
00:50:34:15 - 00:50:36:20
Clark
I'll do anything. Well.
00:50:37:11 - 00:50:39:04
Speaker 1
You know, the other thing, too, is you've.
00:50:39:04 - 00:50:42:12
Clark
Got to you've got to hone in. I just want it, you know, it's like and learn.
00:50:42:12 - 00:50:43:14
Speaker 1
What's fulfilling to you.
00:50:43:17 - 00:50:59:11
Clark
Is a big difference. Right? And it's not it's about what, you know, really understanding. What do you actually want to do? What are you actually interested in? Because it is very different. Do you want to do soaps? Because doing soaps and, you know, doing so the single camera drama are radically different. Do you really want to be in commercials?
00:50:59:11 - 00:51:08:06
Clark
Because that's a full time job pursuing commercials as it is, and it's very different process than auditioning for legit theatrical stuff. It's very different.
00:51:08:06 - 00:51:28:20
Speaker 1
So perhaps me also, you know, I can just to relate to myself as well. The like one of the things that I think that I am good at is that I there are very few things in the industry that I don't like. I would be happy working as a a like a camera technician at, you know, Panavision. But I would not do.
00:51:28:20 - 00:51:31:20
Speaker 1
And that, and that's what I mean that and that's.
00:51:31:20 - 00:51:32:21
Clark
Oh no, no.
00:51:32:21 - 00:51:44:11
Speaker 1
And that's what I mean. But, but what I mean is that, that it's like if I, if I was stuck doing that I wouldn't feel like it, but like I have such a varying interest in it. There are things, of course, that I don't want to do. So for example, when I worked at TIFF, I was doing live Cam.
00:51:44:11 - 00:52:00:20
Speaker 1
It was all it was like TV, live TV camera operation. I hated it. I have no interest in doing that. So I know that there's there's exactly there's no interest there. And I mean, it was it paid well, but I have no interest in doing that as a career. And I think that's what you kind of have to you have to think about.
00:52:01:01 - 00:52:13:23
Clark
You have to maintain focus. You have to you can't you can't just try. I mean, hopefully it is right. You tried this thing because you were kind of put in a position where you had to do it. You realize you don't like it, okay? And you cut yourself off from that. You move forward. It's just, you know, it everything.
00:52:14:00 - 00:52:37:09
Clark
It's such a difficult industry to get into you. You are going to make it harder if you don't really analyze like have a heart to heart with yourself and say, okay, what do I actually really want out of this? And and then focus on that some more. But, but, and I'll even raise it above kind of this practical idea of, okay, well, what, what, what do I really want to do as far as, you know, the exact role that you want to have.
00:52:37:13 - 00:52:57:05
Clark
But why are you here doing this? Yeah. Yeah, because one of the things that I found and this was a huge kind of revelation to me, and maybe it's because I'm slow and maybe other people understood this really quickly. But, you know, when I first started acting, I was focused on almost everything but the story. So I was focused on how I looked, how I sounded.
00:52:57:05 - 00:53:27:08
Clark
I was focused on my headshot, I was focused on my resume. I was focused on the casting director and what was their background and could I find some common ground. And, you know, I was focused on pitching myself to them and I was focused on everything but the story. And as a filmmaker, you've got to focus on the story because and you mentioned this a little bit early, if your focus is on the story, that's going to carry you through so much focus on the story and the.
00:53:27:08 - 00:53:47:18
Speaker 1
Beauty of it. I mean, that's the thing is too, when I when I when I say store, like when I say to my students or whatever, you know, focus on like the story is what matters, it it is the storytelling. Yeah. And I think people often to get that confused where they're like, I just have to write a really good screenplay and that's what matters.
00:53:47:23 - 00:54:09:23
Speaker 1
Whereas and I think that you agree, which is when I say that, you know, it's the storytelling and it's the, it's the and that involves so much within the film. Like if you're going to make a film of a really good film and you're trying to, which I think everyone is trying to, unless you're doing like Birdman three or whatever, I think a lot of it is that is that you have to kind of pull all the stops.
00:54:09:23 - 00:54:39:15
Speaker 1
You know, if I have a really, really great screenplay, it doesn't stop there. It I'm going to try and make the cinematography as beautiful as I can. I'm going to try and make sure that the performances are as, you know, as as strong as I can make them. And I think that a lot of people, again, like they focus on one of the my least favorite things that I hear and I hear this so often, especially from people who are either in film school, had graduated film school, which is they'll say, you know, X is key.
00:54:40:02 - 00:54:44:05
Speaker 1
Mm hmm. So I've heard people say location is key. You know, location is the key to the movie.
00:54:44:08 - 00:54:46:14
Clark
Top three Secrets to Success.
00:54:46:15 - 00:54:57:02
Speaker 1
And it's like it's this thing that I hear so often and it's like, No, no, nothing is key. Everything is important. You just have to make sure that you you don't overthink it, too.
00:54:57:02 - 00:55:29:18
Clark
I do. I think I agree with you, but I bite. My ankle is slightly different. What I do mean is that the story is everything. And I hear what you're saying. You're saying, well, the storytelling. But I do think of it a little bit differently, so let me just speak to it a tad bit more. Sure. So to continue my analogy, when I was worried about all these other external things, when I would go in to audition or even perform, sadly, sometimes I wasn't being propelled by the story, okay by the story.
00:55:30:05 - 00:56:05:17
Clark
And then I started to learn to make the shift, to not forget all of those things, but to approach all of those things from a place of being completely captivated and involved in the story I was telling as an actor, things started to change radically. And so to translate that to being a director, when you are so spellbound, so captivated, so inside the story that you're telling, and that's the place that you're moving from for all of these different you mentioned, you know, it's it's not just the script, it's the cinematography, it's the acting performances, it's the this, this, this.
00:56:05:17 - 00:56:27:13
Clark
Of course it is. But when you're moving to those places, when your motivation for those things is coming from a place of absolute captivation and necessity from the story, I think that's when you're really on fire. And I think that's the kind of films that people recognize They're different, and I think people recognize the difference of that kind of motivation.
00:56:27:13 - 00:56:44:23
Clark
And those are the stories that at least have a fighting chance of cutting through the static of every, you know, all the stuff that we've talked about Now, the millions of films that are out there, the thousands that are released a year, all of the challenges, if you don't have that, you are really I mean, I would even ask I would say, what's the point?
00:56:45:02 - 00:57:09:11
Clark
What's the even the point of telling the story unless you are so captivated by it, you have no choice but to tell it. Every time I've worked on a film and I've and I've come out or a role and I've come at it from that place, it was a joy regardless of what the outcome was. Every time I did it, kind of from the outside in and I was like, Well, this will look good on my real or, you know, I need to do this for a buck or I look and sometimes you got to do this stuff.
00:57:09:11 - 00:57:26:22
Clark
So I'm not, you know, look, we don't live in an idealized world, but I just mean those experiences were always so far less than the experience. What, that when I was inside that story, man, and I was, like, captivated by that story and it was like I had to tell it. Then it just all those other things seem to just they fall in line.
00:57:26:22 - 00:57:43:05
Clark
It's like the universe kind of aligns and there's like this magic that can happen to you. And and that's what makes me crazy about filmmaking. The chance of that happening and when that does happen is so amazing. You know, so. So I do actually mean the story.
00:57:43:18 - 00:58:03:01
Speaker 1
Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, I that's, that is the core of it because of course without it you can't there's not a storyteller but I mean I and what I just am more kind of pushing back on things that you see just all the time about like what is the key, what is the fundamental.
00:58:03:01 - 00:58:04:08
Clark
Oh yeah, for sure. It's like.
00:58:04:18 - 00:58:16:07
Speaker 1
This. I mean, for me and of course it's, it's also it's subjective to a degree. There are some people that don't mind a movie with bad cinematography or don't mind a movie with, you know, bad performances or.
00:58:16:12 - 00:58:16:20
Clark
Something, you know.
00:58:16:21 - 00:58:17:18
Speaker 1
With exceptions to every.
00:58:17:18 - 00:58:18:13
Clark
Rule, you know.
00:58:19:12 - 00:58:20:07
Speaker 1
And but.
00:58:20:07 - 00:58:21:11
Clark
But I think later it's not.
00:58:21:20 - 00:58:44:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, but, but I do think that there's there's a level to which the the movies that people generally consider the great and that kind of in the public eyes or the public eye is are considered like the greats they are both masterfully told stories that have wonderful, wonderful screenplays, excellently written, you know, rich, rich drama narratives.
00:58:45:04 - 00:58:45:06
Clark
And.
00:58:45:07 - 00:59:01:01
Speaker 1
So on. But also, yeah, exactly. Every everything's in place. I've written it oftentimes it's kind of funny. So everything sort of seems to fall into place occasionally in movies like that where it's like it's not even one person's doing. It's almost like an accidental success, which I think are really fascinating stories. But that's a whole.
00:59:01:04 - 00:59:19:06
Clark
Well, that's what I mean when I say that I think that the universe kind of falls in line when the motivations are pure and yeah, inside the story. But you know, maybe that's kind of a little poetry idealist B.S. but that's yeah, at least that's what I heard. But, you know, so we're getting close here to being done with.
00:59:19:06 - 00:59:40:10
Clark
Yeah. These last couple lessons, I think maybe a couple of things we've already kind of hit on, but I think we can kind of make sure that we've said our piece on a few of these last items. You know, we talked about keeping your curiosity awake. We talked about being interested in other things in life. Herzog definitely speaks to that here and these lessons.
00:59:40:10 - 01:00:03:07
Clark
And the reality is, is that, yeah, I mean, the filmmaking bubble is a goofy one. And, you know, and Herzog, you know, speaks to how silly and ridiculous Yeah. And that you really better step outside of it regularly and I think both of us agree we've talked about this and other and at least one other lesson and I think you and I maybe have slightly different opinions or or maybe not.
01:00:03:07 - 01:00:19:01
Clark
I can't remember, but we'll find out again. Now, you know, he talks about experiencing the essential moments in your life and keeping those separate and private. And I really agree with this. You know, the example he uses in the lesson is that, look, you know, if and when you have a child.
01:00:19:07 - 01:00:20:09
Speaker 1
Don't don't film it.
01:00:20:21 - 01:00:21:13
Clark
And film it.
01:00:21:18 - 01:00:22:04
Speaker 1
You have.
01:00:22:10 - 01:00:25:04
Clark
To be there to experience this moment. You know, In other words.
01:00:25:10 - 01:00:26:01
Speaker 1
There are.
01:00:26:02 - 01:00:31:06
Clark
There are definitely parts of life that you should be experiencing, not recording, because.
01:00:31:06 - 01:00:33:20
Speaker 1
You wind up as remembering through the phone.
01:00:34:04 - 01:00:57:00
Clark
Well, it's it's exactly. And I think there are two fundamentally different things when you're when you're filming something, you're observing, and when you are in life you're experiencing. And it's not just and I like it, maybe that's a little binary. It's not that you having an experience when you're filming, but my point is that there are definitely moments where you should be experiencing life and not making films.
01:00:57:00 - 01:00:58:04
Speaker 1
Your focus is averted.
01:00:58:04 - 01:01:24:02
Clark
Yeah, yeah. So experience those essential moments and and I love it. Of course, they're like, wrap up these lessons and effectively the entire class the last like the last kind of subtitle that it ends on is you are alone and, and all you have are your dreams. And I love it. I love it because, you know, it is kind of like a it's kind of a fundamental aspect to the human condition.
01:01:24:02 - 01:01:50:00
Clark
In many ways. We are alone, you know, And I just love that Herzog embraces that. It's it's just wonderful. I think it's like such a compelling part of his personality. But but he talks about how, you know, ultimately and he has some some wild examples here which he shares, especially the one about the crew member getting a snake bite and having to cut off his own foot with the chainsaw, which yeah, as much as I love filmmaking, I really hope that I mean, I hope.
01:01:50:00 - 01:01:52:12
Speaker 1
That I never have to have a crew on.
01:01:52:13 - 01:02:10:01
Clark
A set, but but he kind of talks about, you know, in kind of a little bit of a fun there is he tells these stories about how, you know ultimately at the end of the day, he had so many people trying to talk him out of what he felt was necessary for his film. You know, Fitzcarraldo and the steamboat going over the mountain.
01:02:10:12 - 01:02:40:00
Clark
And, you know, thank goodness he stuck to his guns. Right. Thank goodness we have that film and goodness, we have that story. And as he rightly knew that that was such a powerful and vital metaphor and thank goodness he stuck to his guns. And so, you know, the reality is, is that oftentimes in as an artist in any medium, you are going to be alone and all you're going to have are your dreams and but thank goodness that you have those dreams because they mean everything.
01:02:40:01 - 01:02:41:11
Speaker 1
And thank goodness you're following them.
01:02:41:20 - 01:03:02:08
Clark
That's not a small thing. Yeah, it's not a small thing. It's like he's like and all you have are your dreams. But. But think good. But that's so much. And of course, in many other ways, you're not alone. Actually, in reality. But. But yeah. So, you know, overall, I just kind of wrap up this whole thing. It's been it's been such a blast.
01:03:02:08 - 01:03:09:09
Clark
I you know, it's how I think what you and I had seen these these are these lessons originally. Yeah. How long ago now for you.
01:03:09:09 - 01:03:12:12
Speaker 1
It's 2016 would have been when we. Which blows my.
01:03:12:15 - 01:03:13:16
Clark
Mind. Yeah. Yeah.
01:03:14:01 - 01:03:16:02
Speaker 1
And I almost Well almost five years now.
01:03:16:02 - 01:03:30:07
Clark
Almost five years. Yeah. And I just remember being so captivated. Of course, I had been a, a fan of Herzog's and well before that, and I know you had to, but it was so fun to go back through these kind of talk through that there's.
01:03:30:07 - 01:03:43:04
Speaker 1
Great, great bits. Yeah. Like there's some really, really there's moments in there that I almost just like, want to show other people. Yeah. Just kind of like people that haven't taken it. Just kind of show them and be like, This is such a great line.
01:03:43:06 - 01:04:02:18
Clark
Hopefully this can be, you know, a little bit if somebody doesn't have the master class or, you know, if they haven't seen it and maybe this this series of podcast will inspire them to check it out, but it's so worthwhile. So it's been a blast. I can't believe that we've wrapped up all these lessons. It seemed like when we started, you know, a few months ago, it was like it was going to take us forever.
01:04:02:18 - 01:04:03:16
Clark
Well, here we are. Yeah, Yeah.
01:04:04:00 - 01:04:20:22
Speaker 1
I mean, it's also I think it's important to note, too, again, that we have no affiliation with master class, but I absolutely. And I'm sure you would too. I would certainly recommend the class. The Herzog class. Yeah. It, it, it can be because again and I've said this so many times, and I think if you've been listening to this, you probably have figured it out.
01:04:21:18 - 01:04:36:23
Speaker 1
It's not just about, you know, the filmmaking technique. It's not just about like, here's how philosophy of life. It's very much it's very much a kind of transcends all that stuff. It really goes into like the yeah, the philosophy of life. And it's very inspiring. Yeah.
01:04:37:13 - 01:04:41:18
Clark
Think really it inspired us to do 20 episodes of a podcast on it and.
01:04:41:18 - 01:04:49:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, and get to continue. And that's again, you know, we will be keep going. We as we said at the beginning we were.
01:04:49:06 - 01:05:14:21
Clark
Really going to be Yeah, yeah it's been such an inspiration for us, but it's as always, I mean one of the things I look, I could talk about film and filmmaking and art and life and just, you know, pontificate on that stuff forever. It's just endlessly interesting to me, but it also helps me refine my own views. I mean, talking about it here forces me to think about it more and helps me refine, you know, kind of my philosophy of filmmaking and art.
01:05:14:21 - 01:05:32:22
Clark
And I'm sure it does the same for you. And and that's kind of what it's all about. And hopefully it's interesting for a handful of people out there. So I'm so excited for our next our next episode. We're going to move forward from the lessons and go on to some new things and I'm super excited about it. So yeah.
01:05:32:22 - 01:05:38:15
Clark
All right, man. Well, as always, Colin, thanks for a great conversation and.
01:05:38:18 - 01:05:39:01
Speaker 1
Thank.
01:05:39:01 - 01:06:25:14
Clark
You everybody out there, Thank you so much for listening. We look forward to our next episode. And until then, signing off.
01:06:25:14 - 01:06:34:04
Speaker 1
Goodbye.
01:06:36:11 - 01:06:52:17
Speaker 1
All of life is suffering and you are all alone. The phenomenon of creation is the essence of life. The fire of our own evolution lit the flame that is filmmaking. Carry you into the sky. Werner Herzog.