00:00:10:23 - 00:00:24:15
Cullen
Hi Everyone, Welcome back to episode 63 of the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. As always, I'm joined by my good friend Clarke Coffey, and I am Colin McPhatter. How are things in sunny California today, Clark?
00:00:24:22 - 00:00:51:11
Clark
Well, it is not sunny. I don't know. You know, being up there in Canada, you may not have been hearing the news, but California has been having a huge amount of rain lately presented here that. Massive flooding all around. A lot north of us, especially, I'm out here in Orange County and we've had a ton of rain. But thankfully, at least where I'm at, we haven't had any, like significant issues.
00:00:52:14 - 00:01:17:23
Clark
But yeah, I mean, I've been like friends have been sending me pictures and I've been just like, I mean, because when it rains even a little bit in L.A., like, you got to remember, like it hardly ever rains here, right? So we might go ten months and not get any rain. And then in a normal year, or at least the past five, ten years, where we've been in quite a bit of drought, maybe we'll have, you know, five, six days where there's a little bit of rain the entire year.
00:01:18:22 - 00:01:30:12
Clark
But but the city is just not designed to handle this kind of large quantity. So, yeah, it's like all the streets just flood. It's, you know, mudslides, the whole nine. So, you know, my.
00:01:30:12 - 00:01:37:05
Cullen
Mom was just down in Napa, actually, and for a week and she was saying that, yeah, it's like it was like a typhoon, right.
00:01:37:05 - 00:01:57:03
Clark
That hit I don't know, they're calling it like an atmospheric river or something, which I don't know what that means, but I do know that it's been a heck of a lot of rain now. Right now it's overcast and right before we started recording, it was like crazy. 30 mile per hour gusts of wind and raining sideways. So that has stopped for now.
00:01:57:03 - 00:01:59:11
Clark
So hopefully it'll be nice and quiet for them to.
00:01:59:11 - 00:02:00:12
Cullen
Keep the roof on. Yeah.
00:02:00:15 - 00:02:22:04
Clark
Of our one. Right. And hopefully the roof will fly off the house as we record this. But anyway, but aside from that we're happy to get the rain and I'm also happy to talk about my selection. This episode, which is Kevin Smith's 1994 film, his his first film, his breakout film, Clerks did.
00:02:22:06 - 00:02:45:23
Speaker 3
And it didn't, didn't and didn't. And it's also short. We're going to need a bigger boat. Throughout history, they have been a part of our American lives, men and women who have made it their mission to serve their fellow man. They've worked hard enough. Isn't it time they had their own movie clerks Stamp would be great if it wasn't for them customers.
00:02:45:23 - 00:03:02:18
Speaker 3
I don't bother them and they don't bother me. I could do that. The people in the video store, just that one was that guy was in that movie that was out last year. You should hear the barrage of stupid questions I get. What do you mean there's no action? You mean I got to drink this? Coffee has to feel a hell of a lot better if you just rip into the occasional customer.
00:03:02:18 - 00:03:07:01
Speaker 3
Is your clerk paid to do a job? You can't just do anything you want while you're working.
00:03:09:07 - 00:03:42:07
Speaker 3
You and what kind of convenience store do you run here? Miramax Films presents you thinking of it. You can see it's down here. Why? I don't have six or seven castaway flicks. Just because they serve you doesn't mean they like you to hate people. But I love gatherings. Isn't it ironic? Featuring new music by Soul Asylum. Corrosion of conformity.
00:03:42:07 - 00:03:55:08
Speaker 3
Bad Religion. The Jesus List and Music by Alice in Chains.
00:03:58:02 - 00:04:22:22
Clark
I'm especially interested to discuss this film with you. Cohen For a couple of reasons. Like one, because they're like generational difference. I you know, I was I was a kid just a few years younger than you. When this film was released, I was graduating high school and obviously a totally different time back then. And so I'm really interested A to kind of like hear about your experience watching the film, kind of what you think about it.
00:04:23:15 - 00:04:43:13
Clark
I'm also really interested because this film is kind of like smack dab in the middle of what might be the most important era of cinema for me personally in my life. It's kind of maybe tied for the decade of the seventies, but I have extreme fondness for this era of cinema, so that's understandable.
00:04:43:13 - 00:05:04:18
Cullen
I mean, it's it's the nineties, late eighties and early nineties are very interesting to me. Yes, they were kind of this perfect storm of the liberation of what it took to make a movie. You know, you had not only were like things like 16 millimeter cameras and things like that becoming cheaper and, you know, in other words, more affordable to shoot with.
00:05:05:03 - 00:05:33:12
Cullen
Right. But you had the advent of like wide range of video. You had all this stuff that was kind of allowing a lot of different people to suddenly be able to make movies for the first time, which is quite interesting. You know, of course, there had been super eight and eight millimeter and stuff like that since the the thirties and forties, but those cameras were still expensive and they were still kind of tough to use, whereas the 16 millimeter cameras at this point had become so sort of digitized that they were they were actually not that difficult to operate.
00:05:33:12 - 00:05:40:09
Cullen
And even if you basically, you know, knew the basic functions of what you were doing. So it's a really interesting period of film where you had.
00:05:40:10 - 00:05:41:09
Clark
And there was there was a.
00:05:41:09 - 00:05:43:10
Cullen
Marquee darlings as you might call them.
00:05:43:17 - 00:06:11:15
Clark
And there was a market. And I mean and I think I think there still is one today, but I mean, there was a market that people like Miramax and other studios were interested in mining. So there was like there was a channel of distribution. And obviously this is an era before the Internet, before streaming. And so it was like this sweet spot where these films were receiving like wide theatrical releases, you know, and the market.
00:06:11:15 - 00:06:13:06
Cullen
Wasn't so saturated too.
00:06:13:07 - 00:06:14:03
Clark
Wasn't so sad and.
00:06:14:04 - 00:06:15:00
Cullen
Oversaturated. Yeah.
00:06:15:07 - 00:06:39:05
Clark
And this is really key. And it'd be remiss to, to miss this because I think this is maybe one of the largest, if not the largest motivator of this film industry, is that this is where you really have the at home video physical media market blowing up. This is where you have VHS in the in the first part of this movement, VHS, widespread tons of rental market purchase market.
00:06:39:10 - 00:06:56:21
Clark
After a while it was rental first and then you have, of course, that when DVDs were released, it was just an explosion of physical media sales. So you had movies that could actually get by on they could get their budget budget back and actually make money. Yeah, get their budget budget.
00:06:56:21 - 00:06:57:07
Cullen
Back.
00:06:57:18 - 00:07:07:09
Clark
And and, and make money off of physical media rentals and sales. So, yeah, that was a big, big, big part of this. Right.
00:07:08:10 - 00:07:29:03
Cullen
But this one doesn't this one doesn't really count as this. But it was also kind of there had always been sort of like straight to video in an essence, not always, but as soon as like the advent of VHS and things like that. But this era kind of, again, like you said, changed that where it wasn't just the worst of the worst being put straight to video.
00:07:29:03 - 00:07:39:07
Cullen
It actually became quite a lucrative, like you said, market that that, you know, studios would make things, you know, higher budget movies that would just go straight to video instead of releasing on or.
00:07:39:07 - 00:08:00:02
Clark
Have like narrower theatrical releases that would have a theatrical release. But the studio was worried about having to make all their money back on a theatrical release because they could take new risks. Yeah, so they could take more risk. So there's, I think a lot of reasons why. It's also, you know, there's a whole, I think, cornucopia of of kind of industry wide or culture right.
00:08:00:02 - 00:08:24:01
Clark
Wide reasons why this existed and people who are much more knowledgeable than me could I could probably go way into that. But let's talk about this film and I'm super curious. Let's start off with your experience watching this film. Now, I know you said you had seen it before when you were younger, so I'd be curious to know kind of like what you thought of the film when you first saw it and what you thought of it.
00:08:24:01 - 00:08:30:12
Clark
Now I as being somebody who is almost 20 years younger than me, I'm super curious over here about your experience.
00:08:31:03 - 00:08:37:15
Cullen
Yeah, I think I think I'm exactly 20 years younger than you, actually, because you're 78, right? 77.
00:08:37:15 - 00:08:39:06
Clark
Years old. I'm 70 years old.
00:08:39:08 - 00:08:40:03
Cullen
98. So.
00:08:40:15 - 00:08:44:13
Clark
You know, I'm 76. I'm 76. So he's got a couple more.
00:08:44:23 - 00:09:03:18
Cullen
Too. So. So the for me, I mean, I had a so I saw this for the first time, I think in grade nine, it was like right at the start of grade nine. It was actually at an interesting point in my life because I had gone to you know, I just started it at an arts high school and didn't know a lot of people because it's kind of like the whole.
00:09:04:01 - 00:09:05:19
Clark
How old is grade nine? Like, how old are you?
00:09:05:19 - 00:09:09:00
Cullen
And I would have been 14.
00:09:09:00 - 00:09:10:21
Clark
14? Yeah. Really? Wow.
00:09:11:00 - 00:09:33:03
Cullen
We are so dividing. Yeah, Yeah, So. So I yeah, I was 14 and I was going to this arts high school and I didn't know a lot of people there because again, it was like the whole region went to this high school and I had maybe three friends from my middle school that went there, and one of them, thankfully, was like one of my really close friends who I had made movies with growing up and things like that.
00:09:33:23 - 00:09:42:11
Cullen
And he is was and I think still is a huge Kevin Smith fan like loved Clerks and and which.
00:09:42:11 - 00:09:48:10
Clark
Is interesting because his friend is your age I'm assuming, right? Like yes. Yeah you're like barely teenagers. Okay.
00:09:49:03 - 00:10:01:22
Cullen
Yeah And so so he really you know I think both of us just being into like film for so long, you just kind of find a niche, I guess. Right? And mine might have been a bridge too far and his might have been class, so.
00:10:02:15 - 00:10:02:22
Clark
Yeah.
00:10:03:11 - 00:10:09:12
Cullen
But, so he so I saw this movie with him, the first time and I only saw.
00:10:09:12 - 00:10:11:22
Clark
Watching it on like, VHS, right? Absolutely.
00:10:12:03 - 00:10:27:22
Cullen
Yeah. I think it was probably the same. It was probably because this is the same friend who I had seen Aliens for the first time with a few years prior to this, and it was always like a VHS recording of year. This would have been 2012 or.
00:10:27:22 - 00:10:29:15
Clark
Oh, it could have been DVD though, right?
00:10:29:18 - 00:10:32:13
Cullen
Oh, yeah, Yeah, it could have been. But I think that he had the.
00:10:33:13 - 00:10:33:20
Clark
He had.
00:10:34:01 - 00:10:37:06
Cullen
Video recorded. Yeah. Like the TV broadcasts.
00:10:37:06 - 00:10:40:06
Clark
Like a dub or something. Yeah. Like a dubbed broadcast of it. Yeah.
00:10:40:07 - 00:10:44:13
Cullen
Yeah. There was another extreme umbrella. Swearing was, was like blanked out.
00:10:44:13 - 00:10:46:21
Clark
Oh my gosh. I can only imagine that had to have been.
00:10:46:23 - 00:10:48:16
Cullen
Some of the scenes are just silent basically.
00:10:48:16 - 00:10:48:23
Clark
Yeah.
00:10:50:17 - 00:11:22:16
Cullen
But yeah and so I have an interesting kind of history with this movie just because so because he really liked it. He also always like throughout high school and then he wound up going to film school when I didn't. And he always really went in this kind of style, this very, you know, like he's a huge fan of of Kevin Smith, Michel Gondry, like this kind of that kind of very handheld style of of, you know, low budget filmmaking in that sense.
00:11:23:00 - 00:11:33:14
Cullen
And so, like, I remember we used to when he was in first year university, we'd like like all of his movies were like black and white, and they were just like people having kind of like semi-improvised theater stations.
00:11:33:14 - 00:11:35:11
Clark
Like, it's like recorded theater.
00:11:35:11 - 00:11:54:15
Cullen
Yeah, yeah. There's what I call very much inspired by like, Clerks and that kind of thing. And, and so I, I kind of honestly, by the like sixth or seventh year of doing this with them, got really sick of it. Like, I was just like, oh my God, I never want to hear the word clerks again.
00:11:54:22 - 00:12:08:22
Clark
When would he, would he like, did he ever, like, quote any like, you guys are just hanging out? Did he ever like, like, you know, like you guys are hanging out like having a burger at, like, the fast food joint and he's like, snooty boogie's like, did he ever, like.
00:12:08:22 - 00:12:24:05
Cullen
Quote, No, thank God. I think I don't think we would have been friends anymore. But but no, like, you know, the whole conversation about, like, Return of the Jedi versus Empire Strikes Back. Oh, things like that, You know, I mean, it's like that'll be that conversation.
00:12:24:05 - 00:12:33:07
Clark
I mean, eventually, literally, like, made its way into, like the cultural lexicon. Yeah, I think like that actually I think permeated culture that yeah.
00:12:33:12 - 00:13:10:12
Cullen
Yeah, I know people. I mean, it's funny watching it now because you go back and really like it seems like a cliche now that conversation becomes but it's just it's kind of Yeah. And it's also interesting. Just a quick side note, because even when I was a kid and especially when this movie came out, like there wasn't that kind of cool in quotation marks version of like nerd culture, like it was still quite an isolated group, whereas like comic books and like the, like even Star Wars was, although it was like big, it was still, you know, relegated to like fans and things like.
00:13:10:12 - 00:13:35:19
Clark
If you if you did anything that more than watch the movies, you were a nerd, right? Like, like if you collected like memorabilia or like, you know, like, yeah, you were a nerd. And you're right. Whereas was is, is before that, Clerks is right on the cusp of it. Well, actually, that's not true. I you know, I'm not an expert in this, but I feel like, you know, nerd culture really came into its own.
00:13:36:05 - 00:13:39:21
Clark
I mean, maybe you've got a better grasp of this, but maybe it. Was it like 20 tens?
00:13:39:22 - 00:13:48:09
Cullen
Yeah. No, it was the Marvel movies that. Yeah, it like did it I think and we've we've briefly discussed those before. I don't think.
00:13:48:09 - 00:14:07:16
Clark
I say nerd culture like totally lovingly, by the way. Yeah. I mean I was a huge nerd when I was young and I'm still a huge nerd for different reasons. Ah, you know, my art, my passions lie in different places rather, But I'm like a super cinema nerd and I feel like nerd is just kind of like a word you used to describe, like, Hey, I'm super passionate about something.
00:14:07:19 - 00:14:25:15
Cullen
Yeah, like a super fan of. Yeah, but, but no. And so it is interesting to watch because the conversations that they have, again, about like Star Wars and things like that, which would have been totally hilarious at the time. And again, even when I was a kid, because it's like, Oh, look at these two. Like, right, You know, it's poking fun of them.
00:14:25:15 - 00:14:53:03
Cullen
They're like, God, these like, you know, deadbeats that just talk about Star Wars all day. And yet that would be a totally normal conversation to hear at like a an office now, like yeah, but, but so so it's it's interesting to see the difference in culture and it also to me I don't know I kind of I don't want to say I have a love hate relationship with the movie because I don't there's nothing that I would so strongly as to say I hate about this movie, nothing to that degree.
00:14:54:01 - 00:15:03:02
Cullen
But I will say that it is a very interesting look at and especially rewatching it now as to why it never clicked with me.
00:15:03:23 - 00:15:05:21
Clark
And why do you think that is? Why do you think?
00:15:06:03 - 00:15:22:17
Cullen
I think it's purely stylistic. You know, I think that for me I always found that it felt like and this is a, you know, a knock at it, but this is just more how I took it was that I always found it. It felt more like a kind of like pilot for a sitcom or something, then a then like a movie.
00:15:22:17 - 00:15:49:01
Cullen
And I think I just I was into and still am into, like even on these really low budget kind of movies like trying to punch above your weight. Whereas this, to its credit, really lives within. It's like weight class. Yeah. You know like it doesn't try to do anything more than what they could afford. And I think that that's kind of what just never super got me interested into it.
00:15:49:01 - 00:16:10:23
Cullen
Like, I always just kind of film that I would watch it and be like, respectable. I get why it's kind of like this, this cult classic. I can I can see and I love the story about how they made it. You know, I as always, there's like a huge charm to to especially in this era, but still to this day of just like people who are really passionate with no money going out and just getting their friends and family to help out on this movie.
00:16:10:23 - 00:16:16:06
Cullen
So I think that that's really great. You know, it's a huge inspiration to pretty much everyone that.
00:16:16:11 - 00:16:16:15
Clark
Has.
00:16:16:16 - 00:16:30:16
Cullen
Movies. But I think in terms of the actual subject matter, the content, the way it's shot, it's just not to quote Spike Lee, who's in the special thanks, this movie, it's not my cup of tea. And that's nice. But the other thing that's interesting.
00:16:30:21 - 00:16:32:07
Clark
Is that really a Spike Lee called.
00:16:32:08 - 00:16:48:00
Cullen
Yeah, that's what he said when that's what he said when the Green Book won the Oscars for psychopathy. But but the other thing, too, is maybe through this conversation today, maybe you will open my eyes to things that I thought about so well. So who knows? I'm open minded.
00:16:48:00 - 00:16:48:15
Clark
Okay, well.
00:16:48:18 - 00:16:50:10
Cullen
I will come out with a whole new perspective.
00:16:50:22 - 00:17:22:14
Clark
Okay, So. So let me just let me summarize then, to make sure I kind of understand what you're saying. So if I'm hearing you correctly, you're like, okay, I it's an inspiration and I love the story, Kevin Smith's story, how they made the film and no budget, that kind of jazz and and so I appreciate all that and I appreciate like it's its place in kind of indie cinema history, but I'm not really drawn to the subject matter or the way in which that subject matter is presented technically as stylistically as a film.
00:17:22:15 - 00:17:40:22
Clark
Do I roughly have. Okay, yeah, I think that's totally fair. So for me, like real quickly, I'll summarize my personal experience. I mean, I honestly can't even remember when I first watched this film, but I'm sure it was I do it did not see it in a theater, but I'm sure I saw it very soon after it came out on video.
00:17:41:11 - 00:18:08:05
Clark
And, you know, this is an era of, you know, slackers, Almeria, Robert Rodriguez, Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction. I feel even Natural Born Killers, you know, which was obviously a studio film, Dazed, Confused. It feels like that felt like a really like pushing the envelope, almost indie kind of film, right? So there's like this it's in the middle of this huge explosion.
00:18:08:05 - 00:18:30:17
Clark
I'm like, just starting college. So I'm like, I feel like I'm the perfect demographic for this film, right? I mean, I'm perfect demographic, But but, but yeah, I mean, I don't think like the subject matter. I remember watching the film and like the and hearing about it long before I saw it. Like, you know, Kevin Smith, he's like, because, because there were these two parallel stories, right?
00:18:30:17 - 00:19:03:19
Clark
There's kind of like Quentin Tarantino outsider guys working at a video rental store makes good, you know, does Reservoir Dogs, does Pulp Fiction and Sundance and, you know, through the Moon and and same kind of story with Kevin Smith works at a convenience store, Total Outsider makes a film. Miramax, really? And they're both Miramax kids, too, right. And and goes to Sundance and achieved success as a filmmaker.
00:19:04:03 - 00:19:21:15
Clark
So this kind of like both of these they're almost like Horatio Alger, like, you know, independent filmmaker. You know, dreams are stories, right, that you can kind of if you aspire to do that and you're an outsider, you can kind of hold that as an example, right? And so that's yeah, So the inspiration part was huge for me.
00:19:21:22 - 00:19:42:18
Clark
But I'm a little bit in your camps. I don't know if I'm going to be able to convince you to think very differently about it, because I do kind of share some of your thoughts. I mean, I you know, the sense of humor that's in this film is not really my sense of humor for the most part. And stylistically, of course, it leaves a lot to be desired.
00:19:43:04 - 00:20:07:14
Clark
Now, boy, what I will say, though, is that I'm so grateful that this film and that Kevin Smith exists and all of his filmography. And I guess, like, I don't know, you're right. It's like, is it love? Hate? It's not love hate because there's nothing that I hate about any of this. But but yeah, I mean, I think I gravitate towards a different style of film as well.
00:20:07:21 - 00:20:28:16
Clark
But there is definitely this spot in my heart for Kevin Smith and his films, almost in spite of myself, right? It's like I watch this film and it's like clear. It's made by everybody who made this are amateurs. But that's like part of the charm, right? Yeah, It's like I think everybody who worked on this film had no experience.
00:20:28:16 - 00:21:01:20
Clark
The actors were like local theater actors or, you know, with his family. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the cinematographer, I think it was like the first thing he had ever done or close to it. You know, obviously, it's the first thing that Kevin Smith had ever written and directed, and it's like really hard to hate the story of of them, you know, putting this film on their credit cards and putting everything they have into it and then finding a way to to to put this in front of an audience.
00:21:01:20 - 00:21:18:18
Clark
It's just an extraordinary story. You know, like, like and especially in an era where you can't look the stuff up on the Internet. I mean, how they found out to, you know, to go to the IFC film, I think it was at the time that was like the independent film festival market or something, which I don't think exist anymore.
00:21:18:18 - 00:21:39:15
Clark
Right. And and then the luck of having somebody see it there and then taking it to Sundance from there and then selling it to Miramax and having it rereleased. And then, I mean, it's undisputable. It's like you can't dispute Kevin Smith's career after that. You may love or hate his films or feel like they're somewhere in between, but he's almost like a mini media empire.
00:21:39:15 - 00:21:43:02
Clark
I mean, I think I think he's in production on his 17th feature film.
00:21:43:14 - 00:21:47:13
Cullen
And he's done multiple sequels to this, to Mallrats. He's made yeah, like Clerks.
00:21:47:13 - 00:21:48:10
Clark
Three just came out.
00:21:48:10 - 00:21:48:15
Cullen
Yeah.
00:21:49:00 - 00:22:11:21
Clark
And so, yeah. And he's got this entire, like, View Askew Universe and, and I even recently watch Clerks three and, you know, I don't know that his filmmaking has really, you know it's, it's the same almost kind of filmmaking, frankly. I mean, you're not going to be watching this for it's like, you know, it's it's stylistic, you know, technical achievements.
00:22:12:08 - 00:22:19:18
Clark
But there is like a heart. Some is somewhere in there. There's like some kind of like it's like some kind of sweetness on it.
00:22:19:18 - 00:22:52:09
Cullen
Yeah. No, definitely. I mean, I think it's the charm of this also comes from that like when somebody, you know, really, really loves it, you kind of get value out of that pure like again my friend. Yeah. Having loved this movie and in that style for so long, it does bring me back to like it kind of you have a little flashbacks of like me watching this just kind of feels like being out the back when I delivered pizzas and we, like shot a scene after I got off of work one day and it's.
00:22:52:09 - 00:22:52:23
Clark
Endearing.
00:22:52:23 - 00:23:23:10
Cullen
Pizza behind my place and I was still in my Domino's uniform and stuff like that, you know? So it's like you can think back to I think that that's the thing is that, you know, I I'll say like if you compare this to something like Dazed and Confused, which had a way bigger budget reviews had a I think six or $7 million budget, but similar in style and not visual style, but in terms of just like it's kind of a plotless like hang out movie in a way.
00:23:23:10 - 00:23:33:02
Cullen
The difference is that like Dazed and Confused is again shot really well. Looks really good is, you know, shot on 35 millimeter and things like that.
00:23:33:07 - 00:23:35:09
Clark
It's clearly a fashionably made film, right? Yeah.
00:23:35:10 - 00:24:05:08
Cullen
And whereas this does have like despite the fact that even at the budget level of of Kevin Smith, you know when I made the feature that I made, which was about the same amount of money that he had, I did. I chose completely different, you know, stylistic paths. Sure. To put it that way. And yet I still watching this movie like, yeah, you kind of can't help but smile, especially as someone who grew up making movies.
00:24:05:08 - 00:24:07:01
Cullen
And I'm sure you feel this kind of way, too.
00:24:07:02 - 00:24:08:02
Clark
Is that Absolutely.
00:24:08:02 - 00:24:15:07
Cullen
Is that like you just kind of you feel the the the passion and the fun that they must have had making this just kind of flow off the screen.
00:24:15:07 - 00:24:16:12
Clark
And so absolutely.
00:24:16:18 - 00:24:20:13
Cullen
So yeah, there's there's totally a charm and and something that I love and.
00:24:20:13 - 00:24:36:04
Clark
Look and you know I feel like and I want to be clear on this though, like, because we're kind of say, well, you know, I, I'm not really for the film because of its like technical aspects. But look I've seen a lot of way I've seen way worse. Oh yeah.
00:24:36:05 - 00:24:36:18
Cullen
At higher.
00:24:36:18 - 00:25:07:20
Clark
Budget, at a much higher budget and especially when it comes to the writing Now, like obviously these things, there's a lot of subjective taste involved, right? But watching it again now and it's been so long since I've seen it, I watched it just last night. I mean, there is no doubt that there is a talent in Kevin Smith's writing and and again, and it may not be stylistically something that like, you know, is quote unquote, your cup of tea, like you said.
00:25:08:01 - 00:25:34:04
Clark
But you you cannot deny that there is a freshness in his writing. There's a uniqueness and even delivered by these amateur actors still land somewhere like still works. It's still interesting. Right? And that's what I heard when I watched this movie. I'm not bored and I mean, look at it. I kind of I call this like it's like filmed theater is what this is, right?
00:25:34:04 - 00:25:59:08
Clark
This is basically a play, right? You you have a camera that's almost entirely static. I don't know if it ever moves. Frankly, I don't think there's a single shot that's not on stakes. And almost everything is like a medium, like two shot, almost everything. Right. And you just have people talking and they talk to the scenes done. And then we go to another scene where there's a couple of people talking that's theater.
00:25:59:08 - 00:26:11:18
Clark
But if you made this a play, you'd be like where you're kind of supposed to focus on the dialog, on the writing, and you'd be like, Holy crap, you know, I'm always surprised that they haven't made this play, to be honest.
00:26:11:18 - 00:26:17:02
Cullen
I'm really, yeah, I like that. There isn't some like, Yeah, and like a, like a bigger.
00:26:17:11 - 00:26:35:16
Clark
Well, kind of revival, right. Some kind of like, like off-Broadway, like Clerks, you know. Yeah. I'm really surprised that they've not gone that. Hmm. Mm hmm. But so I really want to give props to the writing. That's. I mean, this is especially for it is his first feature. It's his first thing he's written, as far as I know.
00:26:35:20 - 00:26:48:06
Clark
At least I. I mean, I'm not. I'm not a Kevin Smith scholar, but I don't remember ever having read that. You know, he wrote like 15 scripts before this and and, you know, and this was the one that he got made. I don't think, you know.
00:26:49:00 - 00:27:09:10
Cullen
It takes a lot of I think it's it's an unrecognized talent to wrangle non actors. Yeah. The way that he does yeah that there is like because you can always tell the people who are are sort of more like his actor friends versus the people that he just were like, hey I need I need some help.
00:27:09:10 - 00:27:10:06
Clark
And yeah.
00:27:10:12 - 00:27:40:14
Cullen
You can always tell because the people that he's that are helping out, you know, aren't great but he does something really neat, which is that he just basically gets them to go to 11 and it's like they're so that their energy kind of makes up for the fact that they're not actors and that's that's well, it takes a you know, again, it it it's it's a pretty good choice and it takes a lot of talent to be able to like, wrangle that kind of amateur talent into something like this.
00:27:40:14 - 00:27:40:21
Cullen
Right.
00:27:41:07 - 00:28:04:04
Clark
And I think it's an extension of his I mean, of his personality. I mean, look, it takes a huge amount of talent. I mean, so, you know, as somebody who's who's made a film yourself, a feature length film, you know, how even with all the modern technology that we have, you can you can go buy a camera for a few thousand dollars and you can shoot something in a way that, you know, would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars just a couple of decades ago.
00:28:04:17 - 00:28:40:23
Clark
Sound is so much. I mean, everything technologically is so much easier and it is still so difficult to to get a finished feature film, much less a decent feature film, much less have that film actually see distribution and be seen by an audience. I mean, it's for people who haven't tried it. It's hard to overstate how difficult that really is, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for Kevin Smith, not just for that project for but being able to take that project and create so much from it I think is really impressive.
00:28:40:23 - 00:29:17:08
Clark
And and I would just say to like a little, you know, note for aspiring filmmakers, I think there's a lot to learn about promotion. There's a lot to learn, period, about it from Kevin Smith's career. But I'm really impressed with his his ability to promote. And I think this is another thing where he and Quentin and even Werner Herzog really illustrate the importance of that for a long stand in successful career, all of them are in their own totally unique and different ways, extremely active personalities, and really effective in their own promotion.
00:29:17:09 - 00:29:43:19
Clark
Yeah, you know, they all peaks. He speak publicly frequently. They're all really fans of what they do and kind of and like soldiers of cinema in their own very unique ways. Very different ways. And I'm really impressed by all of them. I mean, you look at Kevin Smith, I mean, he's he's maybe more of a performer than all of the people in Clerks, which I think is really kind of interesting if you think about it.
00:29:43:19 - 00:29:55:17
Clark
He's the director of Clerks. He's silent Bob. He almost never speaks, but he's actually the biggest, the most natural performer of every of all the cast in Clerks.
00:29:55:21 - 00:29:56:18
Cullen
Mm hmm. Yeah.
00:29:57:04 - 00:30:09:02
Clark
Easily. Yeah, easily. He goes out on stage and does Q&A is. And practically standup and made that a huge part of his career. He's got a podcast empire. It's amazing.
00:30:09:19 - 00:30:33:15
Cullen
Yeah. No he he it's not to just repeat what you've said, but yeah, it, it is something that I learned a ton about, which is just that, you know, I, again, this movie, it's very much an inspiration simply because of the fact that I, in this day and age is very different with social media and things like that.
00:30:33:15 - 00:30:57:07
Cullen
But if you look at like so like I forget like you said, I did the feature and then but at the same time, like I never stopped posting on, on YouTube like, like not how to videos, but just like technical videos about, about film and kind of analysis videos or short films. And then we do this podcast and we do and it's like it's very interesting to see someone who is like, just saturated their life.
00:30:57:16 - 00:31:28:02
Cullen
Yeah. In what they want to do. And I do. I think that it's also interesting that, that you have someone who took what he made from this. So you've got Jay and Silent Bob, you've got all these different like avenues of, of of these characters. And I think that's why to me that's why earlier I said it sort of feels like a pilot of a sitcom in a way, because this has gone on to, you know, he's made like this view Askew Universe has what it's like is huge.
00:31:28:02 - 00:31:29:16
Cullen
11 or 12 movies now. Right.
00:31:30:08 - 00:31:41:15
Clark
And and comics and, you know, yeah, again, it's like I mean there's it it it it's surprising its breadth and depth and and it's really.
00:31:41:15 - 00:32:00:20
Cullen
You know and they're not all the same thing to the dogma Yeah like he's got all these different kind of chasing Amy like they're all Yeah like they're very different movies but he's he's done something really interesting which is Yeah. Like to have this interconnected kind of cinematic universe before that was even a term.
00:32:01:05 - 00:32:21:07
Clark
And I think that's that Yes, that's important to note and and I think it's like I think it's extremely interesting and I mean it and to me it's really inspiring to see, you know, so much blossom out of this one film. And, you know, and I think, too, it's, you know, because I've I've kind of been torn, you know, it's like sometimes I'm like Kevin Smith, darn it.
00:32:21:07 - 00:32:41:00
Clark
You know, sometimes I watch your films and I'm frustrated a little bit. You know, it's almost like I wish they were a little better. But it's, you know, especially technically sometimes, But I'm like, you know, there is like, there's some good stuff in there, man. Like, there's, like, there's some good stuff in Clerks. There's some really good stuff in chasing Amy.
00:32:41:04 - 00:32:54:15
Clark
There's some really interesting stuff in Dogma. I think, like, look, in a world where in a world of Marvel films, in a world of reboots and sequels.
00:32:54:15 - 00:32:55:19
Cullen
And corporate cinema.
00:32:56:06 - 00:33:20:05
Clark
And I am so grateful that Kevin Smith voice, Kevin Smith's voice is still here. And I think it means more now than almost ever before. And, you know, so I look back at Clerks and I wonder and I'm curious what, you know, like, what would this film look like today? Like what would a modern clerks even be or wouldn't even do?
00:33:20:05 - 00:33:20:15
Clark
That's a.
00:33:20:15 - 00:33:22:12
Cullen
Really interesting question, too.
00:33:22:12 - 00:33:23:02
Clark
Because.
00:33:23:15 - 00:33:52:12
Cullen
I think it also goes to show the pros and cons of the ease of technology these days, which is to me, you know, you can say what you want about the technical aspects of clerks and how it's it's very clearly shot, super low budget. And yet because of the fact that they're shooting on 60 millimeters celluloid film, you have to take immense care to make sure you're getting what you're getting.
00:33:52:20 - 00:34:21:03
Cullen
Yeah, you still have to light the shots, you still have to frame because you have to make sure that you're not missing something is because there's no video out feed. You're just looking through the eyepiece. That that is a mirror. It's not like you're seeing exactly what the film's getting. So there's still a ton of care that you have to put in and it's kind of goes to what I've always said about like a made for TV movie in the eighties could be and in many ways is more entertaining than a lot of things that are theatrically released today.
00:34:21:03 - 00:34:29:09
Cullen
Just because every single person working on those things just by the technology they had to be available, had to be an expert at what they were doing or else it wouldn't work. Right.
00:34:29:12 - 00:34:31:11
Clark
You know, that's a good point. That's so you.
00:34:31:11 - 00:35:09:11
Cullen
See this and it's like, okay, yeah, lots of hand-held, lots of very like a skewed framing intentionally a skewed framing and like very kind of kinetic camerawork that's very, again, low budget. So it's sort of scatter cam in a way like we talked about in Being John Malkovich, sort of in a sort of similar vein. And yet if this movie was made today, let's say not even by Kevin Smith, but let's say that it was like an alternate universe where Kevin Smith didn't exist and somebody wanted to make something like this today, some other person, and they'd grown up in the 2000s.
00:35:09:11 - 00:35:13:04
Cullen
And they were however old Kevin Smith was when when he made clerks, you know, how.
00:35:13:04 - 00:35:14:16
Clark
Old he was like early twenties.
00:35:14:18 - 00:35:23:18
Cullen
Okay. So he's probably like my age. Yeah. You make this today and it's either shot on a, you know, a DSLR or maybe even an iPhone.
00:35:24:19 - 00:35:26:13
Clark
He was 24 when it was released. Okay.
00:35:26:14 - 00:35:31:19
Cullen
So he's exactly like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was 22, 23 when I made daylight.
00:35:32:04 - 00:35:35:18
Clark
I think a kid, a kid today would be shooting with like a mirrorless, you know.
00:35:35:22 - 00:35:39:23
Cullen
Or again, like if you had no budget, you'd be doing it on, on, on an iPhone or like an.
00:35:39:23 - 00:35:41:03
Clark
Okay and.
00:35:41:14 - 00:35:51:14
Cullen
A rebel. And so that, but the difference there is that you don't have to have a lot of skill to capture an image these days. Right.
00:35:51:22 - 00:35:52:17
Clark
You know so.
00:35:52:17 - 00:36:10:04
Cullen
If you were somebody that was like, well, I've got this funny script about these people that are working in a convenience store. Well, you show up and you're like, okay, the fluorescents are fine because I can see what I need to see. It's bright enough, so you don't need to think about lighting. Oh, well, the mic is built into the camera, so I don't need to record sync audio.
00:36:10:10 - 00:36:14:15
Cullen
And so you just wind up having this. And I'm not saying that that would be Kevin Smith today, you know?
00:36:14:15 - 00:36:15:09
Clark
Yeah, yeah, you'd be.
00:36:15:10 - 00:36:37:03
Cullen
Lazy by any means, but I just mean that like if you had this kind of style of filmmaking be born today, I think you'd get a lot of crap just because people. Kevin Smith never made a movie before, but he actually knew that you had to light. And so the minute that you have to to get a light to make sure the film is exposed, or then you're automatically going to be thinking about, Well, where do I want to put that light?
00:36:37:09 - 00:37:03:17
Cullen
How does that light affect the shadow here? So you're automatically kind of forced into thinking about those things. You're automatically forced into thinking, how do we get good audio? Because we are recording on tape. We need to make sure, right get good audio in this day and age because the technology is so accessible and so easy, and because you don't have to think about things like lighting, because you can put your camera to, you know, 250,000 ISO and you know, who cares if there's there's no like lights available.
00:37:04:08 - 00:37:18:02
Cullen
It really has made and I don't mean to sound like a but I just I notice that there's a lot of really lackluster stuff because you're just kind of like right you can capture an image, but what what are you really capturing right.
00:37:18:03 - 00:37:41:00
Clark
And here even further. So couple of things you make me think of. One I'll speak to that's like smile. I just don't I don't know if you know, this little piece of trivia and just for people out there, but I think it's you're talking about lighting and a fluorescent and things. That's actually why they wrote in that metal shutter movie and Stuck closed was so that they wouldn't have to worry about the sign inside the store.
00:37:41:12 - 00:37:43:11
Cullen
And they could shoot at night and day and things like they.
00:37:43:11 - 00:37:57:20
Clark
Could shoot at night and day and they wouldn't have to worry about mics, matching color temperatures and everything. So that's actually why they wrote that in there, so that they could they would limit those variables and make it easier for them to work because they did have to worry about light. It's also why they chose black and white film.
00:37:58:06 - 00:38:21:15
Clark
So they actually do have like this Lorenz fluorescence. There's tungsten and because they had to just use whatever lights they had and they they didn't have the budget to go out and like match color temperature bulbs or things like this, that's, that's another reason why they shot black and white. In addition, of course, to it being much cheaper, you also have to do a lot less production design because when you shoot black and white, you don't have to worry about the color of things.
00:38:21:23 - 00:38:49:14
Clark
So they made really smart choices, right? I mean, this is these are really smart choices made to work with what you've got, right? And so I think the limitations of the technology forced these choices that ended up being integral to the to the film's success, which is just kind of I'm furthering what you're saying, which is that when you don't have those technical limitations, it doesn't force you to make as many decisions.
00:38:49:19 - 00:39:16:12
Clark
And when you're not making decisions, you're not you're not making a film. I mean, you're you might be capturing an image, but filmmaking is all about making decisions. And I mean, I know it sounds kind of, you know, like a broad, but my point is that right? It's like it's the decisions that make it unique, right? And when you're forced to make decisions, I think it can, depending on what you choose to do, work out for the best.
00:39:16:12 - 00:39:28:08
Clark
And they made really smart decisions in that way. So I totally agree with you. Yeah. And and and so, gosh darn it. What was the other thing I was going to say? I forgot, but so that's justice. But those are some.
00:39:28:09 - 00:39:33:06
Cullen
Maybe I have a quick thing and maybe I remember it while I while I'm talking.
00:39:33:06 - 00:39:35:11
Clark
But this is what happens when you get when you get old.
00:39:37:10 - 00:39:47:10
Cullen
But you but you made a good point about the shutters. Right about And I actually didn't even know that. But I kind of guessed it when I was watching it. I was like, Yeah, I was like, I bet that was so they could shoot.
00:39:47:10 - 00:40:08:21
Clark
Oh, did you want to talk about this? I wanted to. I want to talk about this. The writing. Okay. I just. Oh, yeah, saw that. You know, you talk about the prevalence of technology, of easy technology. Writing has not gotten any easier. The story has not gotten any easier. That's the thing that is still as hard as it ever was.
00:40:08:22 - 00:40:42:01
Clark
Okay, Even with these chat AI bots and all this horse media, look, the reality is, is that it comes down to a film lives on the foundation of a good story, and that's no easier now than it ever was ever at any point in history. And that's so that's the other thing that I see just to like extrapolate a little bit from you is that, look, you can have all the technology in the world and you can capture a lot of really beautiful images and you can capture crystal clear, perfect, wonderful 7.1, you know, surround sound.
00:40:42:10 - 00:41:12:17
Clark
But if the story isn't compelling, if it's if it's not interesting, then what do you have? So, you know, there's not really a story per se here in this film. But nonetheless, the writing is unique, it's compelling, and it clearly comes from a specific place like this is this is authentic. This is not cynically measured to find an audience.
00:41:13:01 - 00:41:32:02
Clark
This isn't how focused is it here? It's not focus tested. It's not, you know, run through a bunch of filters to make sure it doesn't offend someone. I mean, I was shocked, frankly, not shocked, but I mean, I was surprised at how like Blue this stuff that the like subject is in this film. I hadn't seen it in so long.
00:41:32:02 - 00:41:52:14
Clark
I'm older now, so maybe I'm like more of a square, but, you know, pearl clutching, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. But I was like, oh, my gosh. You know, like a lot of like, I mean, I literally I can't think of a film released today that would go anywhere near the, the like dialog and subject matter that the characters talk about in this film.
00:41:52:14 - 00:41:54:02
Clark
Like, I can't think of one. Can you think.
00:41:54:02 - 00:42:11:11
Cullen
Of a film. Well, that's that's exactly that. I mean, two is that it's funny too, because not only did the friend of mine who was obsessed this movie love the style, but like that humor was so his style of humor. So he would always come up with these, like, filthy, filthy, like jokes and things like that. And that was like his big thing was.
00:42:11:15 - 00:42:20:12
Clark
So he didn't you didn't quote Kevin Smith, but he he you got to hear a lot of like, oh, yeah. SMITH inspired jokes those you had to survive this.
00:42:20:21 - 00:42:22:12
Cullen
And for four years straight.
00:42:23:06 - 00:42:42:20
Clark
Oh my gosh I can only imagine. But but it is like you look back and I mean, I feel like you've got to admit that it connected with a lot of people on on at least like some levels, because like Jay and Silent Bob are like the part of, like, cult icons. Yeah, they're like cult icons. And there's like, these little catchphrases.
00:42:42:20 - 00:43:02:19
Clark
I kind of joked like, Snooki, but she's before. But there's all these little things, and that's impressive. And I think like as as he's been so successful as a writer, he's found this large audience that loves him, that he connects with, that he has what seems to me to be like a really fun relationship with him, right? He he gets a lot from them.
00:43:02:19 - 00:43:24:05
Clark
He gives a lot to them. He does Q&A and talks. And I you know, I've listened to commentary tracks on many of his films, and it's like you'd mentioned that it was it seemed pretty clear to you that people were having fun making this film. And it's like it still seems that way that after all these years, he's still having a blast doing this stuff.
00:43:24:18 - 00:43:28:01
Clark
And I mean, isn't that what all of us hope for? I mean.
00:43:28:09 - 00:43:29:10
Cullen
Yeah, I mean.
00:43:29:21 - 00:43:30:16
Clark
That's what I want.
00:43:30:17 - 00:43:39:01
Cullen
To talk about the writing to that, that it can sometimes be like you said, it doesn't really have like much of a plot, but sometimes that can be.
00:43:39:12 - 00:43:40:04
Clark
That's okay.
00:43:40:07 - 00:44:03:03
Cullen
Difficult than like to write than something that has it has just a pretty straightforward way to keep an audience engaged, entertained for an hour and a half without having any like, you know, act structure, narrative push. Right arc, things like that is something that actually is probably more difficult than than like a layman would ever try. Guys.
00:44:03:12 - 00:44:03:18
Clark
Yeah.
00:44:04:04 - 00:44:09:09
Cullen
You know, again, you look at like a lot of movies that do that and a lot of them fall flat.
00:44:09:09 - 00:44:09:21
Clark
The almost.
00:44:10:03 - 00:44:35:23
Cullen
Stand almost all up because they are really authentic. Like, like this and to write dialog that feels like I said, that kind of like proto improv where it like it feels so off the cuff. But I do, I do I just want to quickly get this is related to writing too, but just to jump back to the, the idea of again, like this, writing into the script that the blinds are closed all day because you know you produced a feature.
00:44:36:16 - 00:45:01:10
Cullen
I've done a feature and I'm sure so sure we both have so much experience of doing this where the amount of times that I was writing the screenplay for the movie and would just kind of look at something and go like, Well, that's going to present an issue. Like technically, you know, the original ending to the feature that I wrote was supposed to be set outdoors in a forest at dawn, like as the sun was rising.
00:45:01:10 - 00:45:16:00
Cullen
And it was a really neat scene but I was like, I'm either going to have to get this done so quickly that it's going to be crap, or I'm going to have to drag a bunch of people out to a forest at five in the morning. Three days in a row and have them all hate my guts by the end of it.
00:45:16:17 - 00:45:49:04
Cullen
And we're going to need generators for lighting and we're going to. And so, like it was just one of these things where I was like, Well, I can't afford any of that. Yeah. And it's just logistically going to be a nightmare. So you just yeah, it's kind of again, there's this charm to seeing how somebody who has made it quite big, who has kind of fulfilled that dream of being able to make movies at a budget that where they don't have to worry about the money, how they began literally writing that the blinds were closed because or the shutters were closed because they didn't want to have to worry about, you know, shooting at day,
00:45:49:04 - 00:45:51:07
Cullen
night sun knots and things like that.
00:45:51:07 - 00:46:06:01
Clark
And it's literally become like a theme like, yeah, yeah. If you see all the Clerks films that kind of like the shutters stuck and like, the handmade sign, like, I assure you were open. That's like a theme. It's like a little thing. He's made it like a narrative thread.
00:46:06:01 - 00:46:08:03
Cullen
And that's. Yeah, that's what it really.
00:46:08:06 - 00:46:08:20
Clark
That's kind of.
00:46:09:09 - 00:46:09:20
Cullen
Right.
00:46:10:09 - 00:46:10:16
Clark
Yeah.
00:46:10:16 - 00:46:29:06
Cullen
This is like that, you know, not to make this like a how to indie film episode, but I mean that always kind of comes up in our episodes, but that, that we like the idea that he and Clu incorporates like he doesn't just make it like, oh, he goes in and it's like a pass off pass line of like, oh, the shutters are closed.
00:46:29:06 - 00:46:32:16
Cullen
It's like becomes a joke in the movie and like a running gag.
00:46:32:16 - 00:46:51:16
Clark
And that actually works right then that actually works. And so, I mean, I think there's tons of there's you're right. Not that it has to be a how to but I mean I think that's a really good lesson of, you know, how to take those supposed weaknesses and make them strengths because ultimately, I mean, that's the nature of filmmaking, frankly.
00:46:51:16 - 00:47:15:23
Clark
It's the nature of all art. Right? But it's just I think it's especially true in filmmaking because filmmaking is such a marriage of the technical. And it's it's such a collaborative process where you're having to work with a lot of different people and it's an expensive art form. So those restrictions are like they're there no matter what. And so you either use them or you get used by them.
00:47:16:08 - 00:47:51:12
Clark
Yeah, but, but one way or another, they're and so I think that's a good example. Even on a small scale here. But, you know, I, you know, there's another thing that really inspires me about Kevin Smith and, and it's the same kind of thing that inspires me to a great extent, you know, by somebody like Werner Herzog. And that is that if you look through his filmography and if you if you watch his films with very little exception and I think maybe the biggest exception might be the film that he did with with Oh, come on, what's the guy's name?
00:47:51:18 - 00:47:53:16
Cullen
Oh, Bruce. Yeah, Bruce Willis And.
00:47:54:17 - 00:47:59:05
Clark
How can I? Tracy Morgan. Bruce Willis name. What the heck? Oh, my gosh.
00:47:59:10 - 00:48:00:17
Cullen
And Tracy Morgan. Copout.
00:48:00:17 - 00:48:18:18
Clark
The copout. And so, you know, that's where he was hired by a major studio to, you know, to to direct to helm a film that he did not write, although he did edit. But, I mean, if you look at all of his films, I mean, there's not a heck of a lot of compromise there, Right? I mean, these are his stories.
00:48:18:18 - 00:48:25:20
Clark
They're his films. They are his this is his perspective. It's his opinion. It's his like this is his voice.
00:48:26:04 - 00:48:26:13
Cullen
Yeah.
00:48:26:19 - 00:48:50:11
Clark
I through all but one of these films. And I'm not saying the cop out doesn't have his, you know, that that he didn't leave his mark on it but but I mean that's amazing. There aren't many directors that can have a 30 year career and say that every film, almost every film they've made is the film they wanted to make Was the film that they meant to make.
00:48:50:11 - 00:48:59:09
Clark
Yeah, yeah. That's that's huge, dude. And so, yeah, you know, you can talk subjectively all day long but that he is that's rarefied air.
00:48:59:18 - 00:49:12:16
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. No it's like he's the he's like to me in a strange way the, the like other side of like the James Cameron coin in this way that like he's.
00:49:12:21 - 00:49:15:07
Clark
Really, he's definitely got another side. Yeah.
00:49:15:08 - 00:49:40:03
Cullen
Yeah. And that's what I mean it's like he's like Kevin Smith is like the low budget version of Cameron. Not in a stylistic or personality or genre subject matter. Yeah, Yeah. It, but rather just in the way that like both of them have been and not limited to them. There's tons of filmmakers that thankfully have been able to do this and have careers like this, but both of them are kind of famous for sticking to their guns in a way.
00:49:40:09 - 00:49:58:11
Cullen
And like every single James Cameron movie, there's not a James Cameron movie that doesn't feel like like James Cameron made every decision when it came to that movie scene with Smith. Like, there's not and I haven't seen all of his movies, but I've seen I've seen a handful. And of the ones that I've seen, they all feel like and I actually have seen cop out, too.
00:49:58:11 - 00:50:01:22
Cullen
And I always forget that that's even him. But but.
00:50:02:00 - 00:50:02:08
Clark
Yeah.
00:50:02:11 - 00:50:17:21
Cullen
They are. Maybe with that one exception, I just feel like, yeah, they all are very much Kevin Smith movies, you know, He did, he did Yoga Hosers. I think he's doing like a sequel to Tusk about some like Moose Jaws thing which yeah.
00:50:17:22 - 00:50:18:21
Clark
No, no, no he is.
00:50:19:11 - 00:50:20:22
Cullen
Okay because it's a there's a nice.
00:50:20:22 - 00:50:45:17
Clark
Post on that I just found it on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And here's where I actually think that Kevin Smith gets props to me above James Cameron know and and, and look, I'm a fan of James Cameron but it couldn't be for more different reasons. I appreciate Cameron's vision, his total, his technological prowess, you know But look, he's making, like six Avatar movies.
00:50:45:19 - 00:50:58:00
Clark
Okay. All right. I mean, let's just be and let's face it, you know, he made two terminators. He, like, you know, rode off cats. Why is my brain free? Come on.
00:50:58:00 - 00:51:00:04
Cullen
Are aliens Ridley Scott's alien?
00:51:00:09 - 00:51:20:00
Clark
Ridley Scott. He kind of, like, rode the coattails of Ridley Scott. You know, look, and I'm not dissing the guy. I mean, you know, I think he's probably sold more box office than anybody ever lived. Times two. But but like, you know, like I said, those six Avatar movies, which I've seen, the first two, they're interesting, but they are very different.
00:51:20:06 - 00:51:36:23
Clark
I mean, you get clerks dogma chasing Amy. You've got, you know, red state, which is like radically different than all those movies. Tusk I'm like, who would have seen that come in like the Juice? Have you seen Tusk? I was like, Yeah, I'm just like, What?
00:51:37:00 - 00:51:40:06
Cullen
He has a lot of the strange fascination with Canada for some reason.
00:51:41:13 - 00:52:07:12
Clark
Well, Canada's wonderful. What can we say? It's Not for some reason, but I'm like, and he loves hockey, and he's like an honorary Canadian. Yeah, yeah, but. But there is a lot more variation in style and theme in in and there's more way more risk. I mean, look, Kevin Smith is able and willing to take risk in a way that Cameron will never, ever, ever, ever, ever take.
00:52:08:13 - 00:52:18:11
Clark
And that's just the nature of Cameron makes $250 million films. You can't take risk. He even though he's the most successful box office filmmaker to ever live, he can't take.
00:52:18:11 - 00:52:20:20
Cullen
He's still, you know, he's just confined by that.
00:52:21:02 - 00:52:44:21
Clark
And that's boring. And that's boring. It's boring. And so honestly, if there were two films that were coming out and it was like Kevin Smith's newest film or James Cameron's newest film, you know what? I might be more interested to go see Kevin Smith's, because I pretty much know what I'm going to see when I see Cameron. I'm not saying I dislike Cameron, but I'm just saying if we're comparing the two.
00:52:45:13 - 00:53:10:06
Clark
Yeah, yeah, I, I, I have to appreciate the risk taking and the variation in, in style and subject and the fact that Kevin Smith is willing to go out on a limb and make films as, as like far out there is red state and, and Yoga hosers and tusk and clerks from the get go and dogma he's just got guts dude.
00:53:10:06 - 00:53:12:12
Clark
He's got guns and I that.
00:53:13:02 - 00:53:32:20
Cullen
No it's and it's exactly what I mean when I say that that's like yeah the double or the opposite sides of that coin. Right. Is that one of them works again like you said, $250 million. And there's, there's like again it's that that paradox of film budget where as the budget grows, the eyes that are going to be appearing on that budget also grow.
00:53:32:20 - 00:53:39:12
Cullen
And you, you wind up becoming accountable to a very high number of people. And I think that's why there's.
00:53:39:12 - 00:53:40:07
Clark
Huge strings.
00:53:40:07 - 00:53:48:00
Cullen
Attached. But I think that Kevin Smith doesn't particularly speak fondly of his experience doing cop out.
00:53:48:07 - 00:53:49:00
Clark
He does not.
00:53:49:00 - 00:53:57:08
Cullen
Yeah, and I think so. I think that I think he got a taste of that. And then I don't know what the budget copout was, but it was probably his highest budget movie.
00:53:57:08 - 00:53:59:01
Clark
Highest budget, About 30 million.
00:53:59:07 - 00:54:12:12
Cullen
Okay. Yeah. So that's it. That's a that's a fair I mean, those movies don't really exist anymore. The middle budget movie has kind of all but disappeared. But when that was made, that was a pretty standard for like a theatrical comedy or drama. That was kind of a.
00:54:12:13 - 00:54:14:21
Clark
Pretty slick action action comedy.
00:54:14:21 - 00:54:23:18
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah. Like something that you'd have, you know, big names in as well. Again, Bruce Willis and Tracy Morgan and yeah get can't forget the supporting is but I'm sure that there's plenty of big names.
00:54:23:18 - 00:54:43:23
Clark
Yeah I mean I think I think there were and I think most just to kind of put that in perspective, I mean so he had actually made a fairly decent sized budget film before that, which was Zack and Mary Make a Porno, which is Seth Rogen. Rogen Elizabeth Banks. So, you know, some some decent sized stars. That was at about 24 million.
00:54:45:09 - 00:55:18:21
Clark
And and I think those are by far and away his two biggest budget films. I think everything else he's made in the 5 to 10 million ish range maybe even a little less more recently like well Clerks three was about 7 million. But yeah, I think, you know, Zack and Mary and Cop Out were like his two and Jersey Girl actually was a was a major studio feature film with Ben Affleck and Liv Tyler and even George Carlin when, you know, by this time Ben Affleck was a pretty big name.
00:55:19:08 - 00:55:38:21
Clark
Yeah yeah And that was about a $35 million film so he's made you know he wrote those though Cop Out was the only film he didn't write. Yeah. He was like a hired, hired gun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, if you listen to the I highly recommend listening to the commentary track on Cop Out if you get a chance, everybody, because he does go.
00:55:38:21 - 00:55:59:21
Clark
I can't remember verbatim. Obviously we've got 2 hours of him talking and he's almost as verbose as me but but he does go into some of that detail and it is kind of interesting to hear. I think, like, you know, him and Bruce Willis butted heads and there was that whole thing and but yeah, I mean, I think at the end of the day and I don't blame him, he's like, you know what?
00:55:59:21 - 00:56:09:15
Clark
I'd rather make a film with my friends for $5 million where I get to make it the way I want in the time I want in a place I want with my story. And I don't blame him.
00:56:09:15 - 00:56:26:14
Cullen
Yeah, yeah. Again, it's this very interesting, um, this very interesting paradox. Um, I think a lot of people in, again, he's not far and away the only filmmaker that I think that Herzog would probably be similar in that.
00:56:26:17 - 00:56:27:12
Clark
That's what I would say. Yeah.
00:56:27:20 - 00:56:50:02
Cullen
Like Herzog would always you would never deny the fact that he needs money and he's very open with that about like, how difficult it is for even someone with the name Werner Herzog to go out and get funding for a movie. And yet I think that he he would consider that like a curse, like this idea that you as a like that, it's that it's the most expensive hobby ever.
00:56:50:18 - 00:57:14:23
Cullen
Yeah that like you just need money to to do this and it's a very unfortunate aspect and yet again I think Herzog would also on the same note, say that with that extra money comes extra burden. And so so I think it's very interesting you know I have friends of mine who who are actually sort of in a place where they're actually starting to get up.
00:57:14:23 - 00:57:35:17
Cullen
And I don't want to break any NDAs or around like this or I won't mentioning specific, but that are getting up in this higher budget. Like it's the first time they've had money offered, you know, a large sum of money offered to to produce a movie that they're in charge of. And it's like all of the different things that you just you never had to think about before.
00:57:36:23 - 00:58:12:21
Cullen
You know, like like going out and shooting something in an afternoon and then having the people say, like, what do you mean you're going out and shooting? And whereas like before, it's like, yeah, if I want to go get a shot, I can go out and Yeah. And, and grab something, right. And they can pick up my camera and go out and do that and there's actually not a similar filmmaker again in style, but there's, there's, if you are perhaps if you enjoy this conversation and the things we're talking about here somewhere that you probably would like to to look up is this guy David F Samberg, who I've only seen one of his movies,
00:58:12:21 - 00:58:24:00
Cullen
I've seen Lights Out, but he was a guy that made a short film that went viral on YouTube, and he lived in Sweden with his wife. And they used to just like, make all these little short films, these short horror movies on YouTube.
00:58:24:11 - 00:58:28:05
Clark
And, oh, I think I've seen I've seen Kung Fury. Yep.
00:58:28:14 - 00:58:46:14
Cullen
Yeah. And then she blew up on YouTube, went viral on YouTube, and Warner Brothers was like, Hey, we're going to give you money to make this a feature film. And now he, like, directs these huge, like superhero movies. And again, I haven't seen any of those because they're not for the third time, they're not my cup of tea.
00:58:46:19 - 00:58:52:11
Cullen
But but you do. He has a really interesting YouTube channel. His YouTube channel name is Pony Smasher.
00:58:52:18 - 00:58:53:14
Clark
I think you're right.
00:58:54:04 - 00:59:16:17
Cullen
He he talks very, very frankly about what it's like to go from being this little guy making short films on his Black Magic Pocket cinema camera in in his apartment in Sweden with his wife with literally no other hands to suddenly being in charge of of these huge crews. And I think that it really puts it into perspective.
00:59:16:17 - 00:59:47:14
Cullen
And he's also like he's very open about the fact that he's very introverted and things like that and and that he like. So he so if you like this conversation about Kevin Smith and you're you're interested to kind of here's something perhaps in the same vein I'd recommend you check him out because he he again yeah he just goes into these very, very frank conversations about what it's like and how, like he even talks that actually the reason that I thought of him was because he talks about when he was doing, I think one of the Annabel movies, which is like those big James Wan, like conjuring horror movies, one of the spin offs he
00:59:47:14 - 00:59:47:18
Cullen
did.
00:59:47:20 - 00:59:48:07
Clark
The.
00:59:48:07 - 00:59:49:09
Cullen
I can't remember which one.
00:59:49:09 - 00:59:50:18
Clark
But Annabelle creation.
00:59:50:18 - 00:59:56:16
Cullen
And okay, yeah. So it was like the prequel or something. I never I haven't seen it, but yeah, but I remember I watched a.
00:59:56:16 - 00:59:58:09
Clark
Village that they filled with huge.
00:59:58:17 - 01:00:03:03
Cullen
Yeah, yeah. They're huge budget. They do really well and moderate budget.
01:00:03:03 - 01:00:03:07
Clark
Yeah.
01:00:03:08 - 01:00:05:19
Cullen
Like at least Well pretty standard budget for like a horror.
01:00:05:19 - 01:00:09:12
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. 15 million and then 300 million at the box office.
01:00:09:16 - 01:00:33:07
Cullen
But he he talks in one video about making this choice about like he he wanted to get a shot of of I think looking up a well or something like that and he has some experience doing like very very basic visual effects on like after effects and so he just got his black magic camera that he used to shoot his little short films on like and this is the old Black Magic pocket, like the really, really small one that came out.
01:00:33:07 - 01:00:50:03
Cullen
Yeah. 2013. And then he got that out and he shot these plates and then just kind of comped them together and in the after effects and it's in the movie and. But he remember, he remembered having to like hide the fact that he was doing that from the studio executives and pretend that this shot that he pumped in his bedroom.
01:00:50:23 - 01:00:55:13
Clark
Was, well, you get in trouble, you get in trouble with the unions, you'll get. Yeah. You know, I mean yeah.
01:00:55:14 - 01:01:23:02
Cullen
There's a whole bunch of you know, there's a whole bunch of like, I guess for lack of a better term, red tape that comes with huge budget. So to go back to Kevin Smith, I'm not surprised when I hear him or any other filmmaker talk about the fact that, yeah, I want to stay making movies and there is a certain, you know, Kevin Smith kind of hit this this happy medium where it's like he can make essentially whatever he wants because he's got no shortage of clout.
01:01:24:02 - 01:01:44:21
Cullen
And yet he can also say like, that's not probably that difficult for him to get this funding because people know that he's just going to make something pretty small budget that'll probably do pretty well, like he's got a pretty safe spot that he's kind of etched out in terms of just like he's not somebody that's going to go to investors and be like, I need $300 million to make my reputation of The Silmarillion.
01:01:45:23 - 01:02:06:10
Cullen
You know, he's going to just say like, Hey, I'm going to make another movie with very simple locations with not crazy CGI and just primarily star driven, but like not even big stars, just like, you know, it's driven by the the the actors rather than by some huge set pieces. So so yeah, I think that it is really interesting.
01:02:06:10 - 01:02:29:08
Cullen
I think that as with with any filmmaker you if you really talk about them and they kind of dig into their style, you're going to wind up learning a lot about how different people approach movies. And hopefully if you're an aspiring filmmaker, you can pull some of that away and it'll make you or allow you to make better movies in the future because you can kind of steal their little tips and tricks, right?
01:02:29:19 - 01:02:58:08
Clark
Well, and I think, you know, maybe one of the biggest or at least to me, we could finish up on this. But to me, I mean, my biggest takeaways are, you know, that it pays to to maintain your authenticity, that, you know, to to to keep with your authentic voice, whatever that is, and to from like a marketing perspective, whether you're introverted, extroverted, kind of find your style, but be an asset to your to your content.
01:02:58:08 - 01:03:33:18
Clark
I mean, Kevin Smith lays out a lot of ways that you can be a major marketing asset for your films because you're going to have to be, you know, as as an aspiring or as an independent filmmaker, you know, you're also a salesperson. And that's that's just a big reality. And he is and I don't mean that in like a cheesy used car salesman kind of way, but I mean that, you know, it's like Kevin Smith is so smart about his public appearances and his media appearances and his public persona and social media and these, you know, his podcast and all these other things he does.
01:03:34:03 - 01:03:56:01
Clark
And so when people do give him money, when he does get financing, they know it's not just this film. Like there's this huge machine that Kevin has built that he can apply to the marketing of this film. There's a built in audience that substantial that goes with him from film to film across genre, you know, across anything else.
01:03:56:09 - 01:04:17:00
Clark
So that's, you know, on a smaller scale. I mean, you know, it's like whether it's your, you know, you've like you've, you've rented your local theater for a night to show you're to screen your film and you like, do a Q&A in front of people, right? Or you're like, I mean, it's it's like the the macro story that's like larger than the film.
01:04:17:00 - 01:04:37:21
Clark
That's like how you made the film who you are as a person. It's so important. I just like one of, you know, finalize by saying it's like I forget what kind of extra, you know, it was. Some like making of Clerks or something, some film I was watching and there was a part that really stood out to me, which was that like Miramax was kind of like, still, I think it was Miramax.
01:04:37:21 - 01:05:02:08
Clark
I can't remember if they'd gotten all the way to to that point yet, but they're like, it's either at Sundance. I think it was like one of the screenings at Sundance, right? And and it screened pretty well. People seemed to enjoy it, but it was really when Kevin Smith got up for the Q&A and started talking about his film, that the studio was like, well, okay, wait a minute.
01:05:03:11 - 01:05:17:22
Clark
Because they saw that he was a personality and that he could speak in front of people and that he could speak to the film and that there was this more there than just this like, piece of celluloid. Mm hmm. That's a big lesson, I think, for film makers.
01:05:18:02 - 01:05:24:01
Cullen
Yeah, not to use corporate speak, but yeah, it's like about this kind of brand that you can big build for yourself, right?
01:05:24:01 - 01:05:33:15
Clark
And that's the word they would use. But, but it's clearly authentic here. I don't want to use that word because this is this isn't manufactured in a cynical sense. Yeah.
01:05:33:15 - 01:05:35:14
Cullen
It's not like he's like out there. Yes.
01:05:35:20 - 01:05:36:06
Clark
This was.
01:05:36:06 - 01:05:37:03
Cullen
Our publicist and.
01:05:37:19 - 01:06:06:04
Clark
Yeah, no, it's like authentic. If you ever see any of his like Q&A is and he's even got some like long form kind of performative kind of things that are released on DVD and stuff or I think some of them might even be on streaming media, Netflix or whatnot, depending on what country you live in. But but it's I would recommend watching it and like watching how he tells stories about his films and the making of his films and the work that he does because he's one of the best.
01:06:06:04 - 01:06:33:01
Clark
Not to say again that that style is necessary. And again, I kind of say, you know, Herzog is exceptional at this, too, and Tarantino is exceptional at this. They're they're captivating, they're compelling and they're opinionated. And they're just I think they're really some of the best director is when it comes to successfully marketing their own films with their personalities and with their own inherent natural storytelling skills.
01:06:33:05 - 01:06:39:12
Clark
So anyway, that's my my take on it. But any final thoughts, sir?
01:06:40:01 - 01:06:41:15
Cullen
No, no, I think that's.
01:06:42:02 - 01:06:42:15
Clark
We covered.
01:06:42:16 - 01:06:43:04
Cullen
It all.
01:06:43:17 - 01:07:02:00
Clark
I said it all. Well, hey. All right, everybody. Well, thanks for. Thanks for listening. If you've stuck with us this long, we appreciate you, even if you haven't stuck with us this long, we appreciate you. But since you didn't stick with us this long, you are not hearing my. Thank you. But we thank you nonetheless. And Cohen, I look forward to your choice next time.
01:07:02:10 - 01:07:07:01
Clark
Everybody out there, be safe. Have a wonderful couple of weeks. We'll catch you on the flip side. Take care.
01:07:07:09 - 01:07:09:18
Cullen
Bye bye.