Cullen
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I'm Cullen McFater and joined once again by Clark Coffey. And today we're talking about lesson eight in the Werner Herzog Masterclass. This one's all about leading the platoon and, you know, leading being a leader on set as a director or even, you know, as a producer. This is kind of a universal kind of instruction for what you can do on on a film set to make things run more smoothly.
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Cullen
Yeah, I mean, just a jump right into it, really. I think that Clarke, you and I kind of have I think you would agree with me when I say this that a really great or something that would put you to an advantage on a film set is to learn really every facet of what goes on and know by both.
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Clark
You know, absolutely.
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Cullen
Experience acting right and I think.
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Clark
Extremely helpful. Yeah.
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Cullen
Just on a specific level, they're like, yeah. One of the biggest pieces of advice I can give to anybody who wants to direct is take a few acting classes. Well, yeah. Learn how to communicate those things so much better.
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Clark
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's great advice. And, you know, Herzog does, you know, mention in this lesson the importance of understanding at least a little bit. I don't think you're you're working to be an expert in every single aspect of filmmaking. I don't know that that's practical, but certainly having a working knowledge of every aspect of filmmaking and so, you know, getting a chance to, you know, operating your own camera light in your own, you know, at some point, at some point in your learning process.
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Clark
And certainly working with actors is I mean, that is such a vital area. And it's one I you know, I see especially in directors just starting out that that's likely that that's one of the more challenging areas for newer directors. But but frankly, I hear stories even from well-established directors with quite a bit of experience that it challenges at all levels and absolutely studying acting for a period of time, working in a room with actors in their class, I would say, you know, six months or so, I would give it actually a decent amount of time.
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Clark
Yeah, that's not going to turn you into a great actor studying it for only that period of time. But what it will do is certainly open up your mind and your heart to what the actors process is, what they go through, because it's a hell of a challenging job on set.
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Cullen
So it'll just arm you with the knowledge to be able to communicate effectively with them too.
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Clark
No question.
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Cullen
Huge part. Yeah. I've had experiences on sets where the directors clearly don't have that.
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Clark
Oh God, that knowledge.
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Cullen
And it's mean. It's like, oh, it's, you know, and I luckily, I mean those some instances I have been acting with Solomon since I've been doing, whether it's deep work or just camera work or whatever. Yeah. And it's just one of those things where it's you're kind of standing there like, No, no, no, just, just talk to them.
00;02;58;15 - 00;03;11;23
Cullen
Don't you know, people just don't know how to, not to, to be very frank and not to, you know, put anyone down. But people sometimes just don't know how to to direct actors in that way or in an efficient way. Well, it's not automatic.
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Clark
Yeah. I mean, it's none of us. None of us are born, you know, with this innate knowledge. And so, yeah, it's, I think and we're going to touch on quite a bit more of this. But yeah, I mean, being the director on set requires a tremendous amount from someone. And part of that is that, you know, you're going to have to know a little bit about every single position.
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Clark
And yeah, and I think, you know, acting is such a delicate art, frankly. And, you know, one of the directors biggest challenges is to create a conducive environment for actors to really be able to do their work and do it well and absolutely, you know, understanding what that's like to be on that side of the fence will not only help you communicate better with them.
00;03;58;03 - 00;04;16;07
Clark
And every actor is going to have a slightly different way of of needing to be communicated with them. And you're going to see that, you know, if you study acting for a while. But but creating a set that's conducive for good performance is is just a it's a it's obviously one of the vital aspects of directing. So I couldn't agree more.
00;04;16;07 - 00;04;35;17
Clark
But I you know, I would extend that even further. You know, it's edit some of your own work and most of us now in this day and age I mean that's one of the great things about where we're all at with the technology of filmmaking is that you're likely not only are you going to get a chance to do this stuff, but you're probably going to have to do some of this stuff, know all these things on your first few films, right?
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Clark
I never set out wanting to be an editor, but hey, who was going to edit those first half a dozen short films that I did? You know it's going to be me. But but it really did teach me a lot.
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Cullen
I mean, I only make I talk all the time, but with my students and I say, like you should not only is learning to edit good for, you know, being able to edit your own shorts and things like that, but it's also super important to learn how to think like an editor when you're dress and to kind of be on set and go, Oh, you know what, we need to pick up an insert of, you know, a hand on that doorknob over there because that shot's not going to cut with that shot.
00;05;13;23 - 00;05;35;11
Cullen
And kind of just being able to have those moments on set and to be able to, you know, work around that and kind of think about this master playlist of like shot a shot, what is going on? And it's actually kind of funny because I know that a producer will often say that, you know, what I want to do is make sure that the director doesn't have to think about seven scenes down the line or six scenes down the line.
00;05;35;11 - 00;05;59;22
Cullen
I want to make sure that their job is as simple as possible so they can think about the scene that they're on. And that's great. And that's, you know, that's that's hugely advantageous for any director. But at the same time, that's more logistical stuff. Whereas as a director, you should be thinking about the whole movie creatively. If you constantly have with the last scene, with the last shot, with the last 10 minutes of the movie, were prior to this moment, especially, you know, as most movies are not shot consecutively.
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Cullen
Right. You've got to really get a grasp of of that kind of idea of like what's coming before this and what's coming after this.
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Clark
Well, you.
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Cullen
Know, that's the joke. Sorry. Go ahead.
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Clark
Oh, yeah. No, no, no. Please, go ahead. Hey, you're telling a joke, man. I want to hear this.
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Cullen
It's not a very funny joke, but it's a it's a it's like an old the not old either, but there's there's the old kind of thing that a bunch of people who have worked with James Cameron always say that he can do any job on the set better than the people that are doing them. And whether or not that's actually true is, you know.
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Cullen
Right. No, Right. But I think that the the message there is is clear that, you know, again, like you said, as a director, you should have a knowledge of what every department is doing, not an expertise, because as you said, I don't think a working knowledge. But yeah, exactly. You should be able to go to the lighting crew and have a conversation with them about what's going on, costumes and yeah, you know, be aware of everything going on on the set.
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Clark
And I want to just say to you, just, I think editing is, you know, they're all they're all, of course, vital. But editing is so fundamental. I mean, editing is what makes film. Film. Yeah. And, you know, I just want to add a little bit more to what you said was that, you know, it's not only about being able to think in, you know, what's come before and what's come after, but it's you can really tell, you know, when you spent time editing, you start to understand the rhythm of scenes.
00;07;22;18 - 00;07;48;25
Clark
Editing is really going like when you really have to sit down and you have to massage these moving pictures into into scenes and into, of course, a final film. I think you get a much more visceral grasp of rhythm and of how a scene moves from one to the next. You know, you'll start to pay attention to being able to shoot where it gives you the option to to cut on action or movement.
00;07;50;02 - 00;08;19;03
Clark
Just all these little things that are almost even hard to articulate necessarily, but that add up to a rhythmically satisfying film and editing can really help you see how that's actually done. And it's not to say that you're going to be, you know, and ideally, I think, you know, a director shouldn't be editing their films, but but the director obviously is working, you know, right there, side by side.
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Cullen
But in the editing suite. Yeah, you know, Yeah. Knowing what the decisions that are being made are like why they're being made. And I mean, as many people say, editing is really the last writing phase of a movie.
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Clark
Absolutely. I mean, so easy and it's so easy, right? I mean, just logistically, I mean, there are there are many software options that are not very expensive or even free. You use do you now, do you just not to get too into the nuts and bolts here, but do you use Da Vinci?
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Cullen
I do. I have the full version, though.
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Clark
But. But isn't there still like it's maybe it's limited to like ten AP but do they still have kind of the free edition?
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Cullen
Yeah, Yeah. The free version still exists. So there you go. I believe limited that I never used it. I only ever had the full version. Right. But yeah, I think it's, it's limited to 1080 or so but yeah, exactly. It's, it's a, it's free will. And Ellie that is industry standard really for rating but.
00;09;09;23 - 00;09;31;14
Clark
Premiere pro is I you know I don't know how much it is now I've got the entire suite of Adobe products and I think it's somewhere in the realm of like I don't know how much it is. I think, oh jeez, I don't even want to say it's not outrageous. And they may give sometimes, you know, a free month here and there, but you only have to pay for it for the period of time you're using it.
00;09;31;24 - 00;09;59;23
Clark
Yeah. And relatively speaking, it's it's ridiculously cheap for the power that you get from it. And there's so many tutorials, too, on YouTube that are totally free tutorials on all these software, whether it's Da Vinci or Premiere or I don't know how many people are using Final Cut anymore, but you know that it's it's it's very available Yeah almost anybody so I highly recommend that it's.
00;09;59;23 - 00;10;05;20
Cullen
Aerials are all over the place online you don't need to go out and take a class or you can just literally look it up and watch a few YouTube videos.
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Clark
And they've gotten quite a bit more user friendly, too. I mean, maybe, I don't know, it's hard for me to judge. I've been using them for quite a while. They seem mostly sometimes there's some quirks that are really wackadoo that have me scratching my head. But I mean, for the most part, you know.
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Cullen
I know, but.
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Clark
Yeah, well, Avid is the one that I don't have as much experience with as.
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Cullen
It. I don't think we'll ever be user friendly, though. I do think that's their shtick.
00;10;28;28 - 00;10;52;12
Clark
Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Right. It's like they have to keep that bar, that barrier to entry high so that it's extra special. I was curious. I want to touch on something else. I want to go back just a little bit because it's extremely interesting to me personally and my experience as a director. So you talked about how you had taken acting classes and how that was That was like right off the bat you were like, I highly recommend you do this.
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Clark
Obviously that had an impact on you. Can you maybe share with our listeners was there anything in particular you remember that kind of stood out, something that really that you really were able to take from those classes?
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Cullen
I mean, I saw I.
00;11;07;22 - 00;11;09;04
Clark
On set as a director.
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Cullen
I think we've I think we briefly touched on this before, but I yeah, I've been I've been doing acting for my whole life, like since I was a child. And then I went to high school with this, you know, that specialized Asian. So I was doing taking act classes literally every day for four years straight. Wow.
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Clark
I didn't know that.
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Cullen
And so, you know, I did a lot of stage performances and things like that. But very different type of acting than film acting. But for sure, there's the there are carryovers.
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Clark
But yeah.
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Cullen
But I think that the biggest takeaway for me was just being, again, just that communication of like being able to if I'm an if I'm an actor and I am, I'm doing something that the director doesn't particularly like or isn't really feeling the energy of being able to know that process and go up to an actor and give them notes that an actor would understand or that can take away rather than just saying, Do it more like this, you're able to say you're being exterior.
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Clark
Be sad and.
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Cullen
Say to an actor, you know, you can just have that conversation with in the way that makes it easier for an actor to kind of get where you're coming from. Just say like, you know, take it from a place that you're no longer happy with that character or something like that or, you know, this general. Of course you would you would have more specific notes in a movie, but just being able to have that communication and again, it's one of those things that I just notice and I would never you know, I'd never crossed the line if I were if I wasn't directing something and go, maybe you should tell the actor like this.
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Cullen
I just kind of stay silent and and judge from a distance. But, but, but listening to directors who very clearly don't have that acting experience but try and give those notes when you just kind of think in the back of your head like there's a lot more effective ways of getting across what they want right now. And, you know, I think it's again, it's that it's not even about turning into a really good actor and being a director who can also act out the scenes along your actors.
00;12;54;16 - 00;13;03;27
Cullen
Like that's not what it's about at all. I think to me it's about the ability to communicate the ideas and and to understand the process that actors usually go through and.
00;13;04;07 - 00;13;34;19
Clark
And to empathize care. And I would say and to empathize with it. You know, I want to like I countless times, you know, from my career, earlier career, where I was working with much younger directors, like I had was, you know, in a handful of AFI films, AFI students, their films and things and brilliant people, fantastic school. But I did notice that it would happen often where they would set up, and this is just not understanding any kind of actor process.
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Clark
You know, they, they would not allow for any time for the actor to do any work before, you know, extraordinarily emotional scenes. Right. Or, you know, just so even in scheduling a film to have some kind of understanding of the actress process, I mean, I can't tell you how many times it would be schedule would be set up where, of course, you know, the last shot of the of the of the entire shoot is like this you know, the the most amplified emotional climactic scene for the actor.
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Clark
Right. And and then there's like there's literally no time to do anything. They're like, okay, we've got 15 minutes to do this from three different setups. And I'm like, You've got to be kidding me. And just know as so, you know, just a total lack of understanding or even even.
00;14;26;21 - 00;14;35;14
Cullen
Starting with that sometimes to like when, when a director is like, okay, what is going to be this huge emotional monologue moment or something and just go, just go.
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Clark
It's like, okay, we haven't even met each other. We've, you know, we don't have any kind of rapport. We've not worked, you know, boom. And yeah, so it's, you know, so not even just a communication, but just an overall empathy and understanding. And that, you know, affects everything from scheduling to to, to that order of, of setups and shots and whether you're working from wide too close or maybe vise versa to help save an actor's, you know, save their energy, you know, or help that it's just so, yeah, I couldn't recommend it more.
00;15;09;13 - 00;15;36;07
Cullen
But I mean, again, just being able to blend all that stuff to like, I've really, like, like one of my preferred ways of shooting any moment of dialog isn't just doing over the shoulder and getting coverage of inserts and stuff like that. And Herzog does go over that in his first couple episodes. Yeah, but rather I like crafting a really well blocked, you know, almost like a tableau and having the actors play those scenes out in one scene, like theater take exactly like theater.
00;15;36;19 - 00;15;58;11
Cullen
And what that not only does that make a really interesting visual style, I know Bong Joon Ho also really likes that style of just kind of having a still observational camera look in on a scene, but it also allows the actors to and, you know, I know there's interviews with like Samuel Jackson talking about this, too, where he says, you know, when that when that is the style of filmmaking, the actors can play off of each other.
00;15;58;11 - 00;16;15;04
Cullen
It's not me sitting at a table with a camera in my face. No, delivering the line 16 times over and over again for every single different angle. Yeah. US getting a moment and acting out a scene together and just capturing that on. And that's not to say that you can't do neat things with the camera because there are so many again, I mean, look at Bong Joon Ho.
00;16;15;08 - 00;16;19;01
Cullen
His scenes are directed like that, but I don't think anyone would say that his shots are flat or.
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Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
Or, you know, or fly on the wall. Even. And they're just.
00;16;23;00 - 00;16;24;02
Clark
Great. Yeah.
00;16;24;02 - 00;16;41;21
Cullen
They just allow the actors to work. And I think that's where this blending of the whole process comes in it learning. Yeah. You know, just a touch of every single department where you can go, All right, this is how I'm going to work with the actors, and then I'm going to combine that with the way I'm going to communicate that with the camera department and kind of say, this is what we're looking at and you're trying to bridge that.
00;16;41;21 - 00;17;10;19
Clark
That's a good point. That's such I just want to go back for justice. And that's such a great point, too. You know, it's not even in communication to the actor or, you know, conducive nice to performance in how you've constructed the entire set and schedule. But the actual construction of the shots themselves and, you know, being keenly aware of how actors work and how important it is to be able to be in that moment and be with other actors and as much as possible.
00;17;10;19 - 00;17;37;07
Clark
I mean, I think this is one of the reasons that Herzog goes to such great lengths that he goes to to actually be in the Amazon, to actually be pulling the ship over the mountain, to actually be in the places, you know, to have Christian Bale actually eating the real maggots is that it's you know, and because we've seen this in so many films, I think we've talked about this and, you know, other episodes, right, Like where everything is green screen actors are performing to a tennis ball.
00;17;37;10 - 00;17;49;10
Clark
Yeah. You know, nothing's real. Nothing's there. And it's like you're doing everything imaginable to destroy an actor's ability to give a great performance. When you do that.
00;17;49;14 - 00;17;50;19
Cullen
In that manageability.
00;17;50;20 - 00;18;07;23
Clark
Reality and it's Yeah. And, and so really like I think until like, until you've been on a stage or been in front of a camera and you're trying to do it yourself, you'll never know exactly what that experience is like. And it's so powerful to have. I would even go so far. I would suggest that you have theater experience.
00;18;07;23 - 00;18;33;02
Clark
I that's where I started theater. I mean, I would actually even though there are important differences, I would highly recommend to people who are interested in being filmmakers, being directors to actually do some work in theater. Yeah, actually, you know, I started out acting on stage and it was an important experience, learning to work with an ensemble, with a group of people to put together a live performance.
00;18;33;02 - 00;18;58;01
Clark
There's I mean, first of all, it's just wonderfully fun and a great experience. But but then I actually moved to that to actually directing theater performances, and I actually directed theater well before I ever directed film. And it was such a powerful learning experience and especially and specifically that that aspect of working with actors because there's such a rehearsal process that you don't get Generally when you make film.
00;18;58;01 - 00;18;59;05
Cullen
Oh, absolutely.
00;18;59;05 - 00;19;06;22
Clark
That it's a really, really powerful opportunity to hone your craft in communicating and working with actors.
00;19;07;01 - 00;19;30;08
Cullen
Yeah, I always, if I can, if I'm ever doing a movie, I always vouch for. First of all, it's time for rehearsal time because it's so vital to me, like just to be able to have the actors watch that. Because again, that's another thing that you kind of learn of being an actor is the amount of times I would be rehearsing scenes over and over again for weeks on end for for a stage performance.
00;19;30;08 - 00;19;45;11
Cullen
And then, you know, two and a half weeks in, I'd make some realization about the character or some some realization. But the scene where it would completely change things for the better, for sure. It's like it took me two and a half weeks to get there. I can't imagine the opportunities that are missed by just skipping rehearsal processes.
00;19;45;12 - 00;20;05;05
Clark
What are the thing? Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I try to do so it's not you don't always get rehearsal time. And I I'm working on a feature film now in pre-production on a horror film that's going to be shot up in Seattle and we're not going to have rehearsal. And the reason we're not going to have any real rehearsals are because it's just logistically not possible.
00;20;05;05 - 00;20;47;03
Clark
The budget will not allow it. We'll be hiring people, many people from Los Angeles, and we cannot afford to travel them up to Seattle and room and board them and feed them for rehearsal time. It's just not going to happen. So but one of the things that I found can be extremely useful, especially when you can't have rehearsal time, is to work with, you know, this is can be remotely right over the phone or via Zoom now or in person is to work with each actor and just kind of see get it and start early, start as early as you can and kind of be there with them as they go through their homework.
00;20;47;07 - 00;21;12;11
Clark
I mean, an actor should be as soon as they're hired and they've got the script, they should be working right there. They're doing their homework and different actors will have different ways of doing that homework. But it's so important to be there with them and be and really be communicating and, you know, give them a ton of space, which you I mean, you if you if you cast them, that means to you that should mean that you trust them as an actor.
00;21;12;29 - 00;21;40;26
Clark
But be there and you'll start to learn what's their process, What direction are they heading in with their characters? How are they seeing the film? And you can massage your vision as a director, which certainly you should have into their work so that everybody is on the same page. So even if you can't do a rehearsal, I think this is a really powerful tool to work very closely with your directors and with their sorry with your actors during that homework process.
00;21;40;26 - 00;22;12;19
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah. And I think I mean, again, it's, it's one of those things that's, as you said, so many movies, especially indie flicks, don't really have an allowance in the budget for rehearsal. But yeah, if you can, I would say always push for it as much as you can because there's even things like just getting options in rehearsal and kind of, you know, just sitting down in a, in a studio and just kind of saying, okay, let's try this scene, but let's have you come in as though you are really low, energy is low, you're tired out, and then you can do the scene like that.
00;22;12;19 - 00;22;24;05
Cullen
And then if that doesn't work, then you can say, okay, let's try it. Now that you're frustrated, you're coming in, you're high energy, early, hotheaded, you're coming in, you know, and it's like it again, it's things like that in theater that you could do so often that you can do over and over again. Because, of course.
00;22;24;15 - 00;22;27;19
Clark
Nice try. You should try to get you should try TV.
00;22;27;21 - 00;22;28;25
Cullen
Oh, yeah, Yeah.
00;22;28;28 - 00;22;31;16
Clark
I like I've shot TV. You want to talk about.
00;22;31;23 - 00;22;32;03
Cullen
You.
00;22;32;03 - 00;22;38;06
Clark
Want to talk about no rehearsal? You want to talk about it even further? You should try soaps. Oh, man.
00;22;38;06 - 00;22;38;22
Cullen
Yeah, I've got some.
00;22;38;23 - 00;22;40;00
Clark
Yeah, I've got some funds.
00;22;40;10 - 00;22;44;09
Cullen
I think I've seen you. I think you showed me some of your. You showed me some of the things that you write.
00;22;44;13 - 00;23;13;19
Clark
It is. It is wild how fast you shoot on a soap and you're. You're like, always shooting. I don't even know if. Yeah, it's just extraordinary. But even a regular TV and just, you know, I one of the things that actors I just to give like a small window into you know if you don't aren't familiar a ton with what actors do you know most work for actors actually kind of comes from television most paying work comes from television.
00;23;14;08 - 00;23;37;05
Clark
Just just not as many films shot. There's not as many roles. So commercials or television, but we're talking about legit. Where TV, you know, 95% of the time an actor, when you're cast for a television role, you don't get to do anything. You don't even talk. You know, you pop out of your trailer on set the day of the shoot, and you walk into an action scenario.
00;23;37;19 - 00;23;58;04
Clark
It's wild, man. I mean, you're not talking to the director, you're not rehearsing nothing. You hardly met anybody. You've likely hardly met anybody, even, you know, it's amazing. I'm talking about this is like costar type roles, which are usually what's offered to two actors who are kind of starting out. But every actor has to go through This is my point.
00;23;58;14 - 00;24;10;10
Clark
So, you know, a lot of actors, they have the capability to jump in and run, but certainly being there to help them and work with them is something that they're going to really appreciate. So.
00;24;12;04 - 00;24;16;20
Cullen
Yeah, no, I mean, it's a TV is is a it's a different beast.
00;24;17;16 - 00;24;24;28
Clark
We can talk about. Yeah, we can maybe have an episode where we talk. I've got some great stories from so from from all that time on Bold and Beautiful Man.
00;24;25;15 - 00;24;29;20
Cullen
I mean, I mean, even just down to, like, lighting. You don't even have time to. It's like, put up a light and shoot it.
00;24;30;01 - 00;24;53;29
Clark
Well, it's the everything is just everything's lit in a generic sense, such then at least for a soap. For soap, obviously for a single camera. I mean, there's you know, some shows are lit with the meticulousness of a feature film, obviously, of course. But, you know, and I want to point out something that we like, we kind of missed, but it was but Herzog actually starts this lesson off with this.
00;24;54;08 - 00;25;11;16
Clark
And it's a good time to bring it up now because, you know, we're talking about I mean, it can seem overwhelming, right? You've got to you know, you've got to know about all these different departments as a filmmaker. And it it's a lot. But, you know, I am I am I am kind of I don't know how to say this.
00;25;11;16 - 00;25;34;25
Clark
I'm like, it makes me smile, makes my heart kind of smile to hear that Herzog is still, you know, his first moments on set. He kind of suffers from imposter syndrome, you know, And he's like a little bit scared. And he's thinking to himself, Well, he's doubting himself, Can I do this? Is this, you know, am I you know, am I an imposter?
00;25;34;25 - 00;25;58;13
Clark
What have I done to deserve being here? Am I good enough to be here and I mean, seriously, it's like, makes me feel so much better to know that even somebody with as much experience as Herzog, somebody who seems, you know, so in command of his voice and his vision as an artist, as a filmmaker, still has this happen every time he's on set that for, you know, that first shot right before that first take.
00;25;59;13 - 00;26;26;20
Clark
And so, you know, just for everybody else out there listening, I mean, even Herzog has these moments of doubt. It's just an it's an ongoing process of learning and refining. So it doesn't mean I don't I don't want anybody out there to take from this that, well, you know, before you ever set out to direct your first project, you know, you should spend a decade, you know, studying acting, then studying cinematography, then studying, you know, costuming, then study.
00;26;26;20 - 00;26;49;24
Clark
You know, get out there and do it right now and start learning. But it certainly don't stop learning and be sure to spend time learning a lot of different departments. A lot of different areas. Yeah, but I don't know, I think I was I was happy. Like it made me smile when Herzog started off the lesson that way, personally, I'm like, Oh shoot, it happens to him.
00;26;49;24 - 00;26;58;20
Clark
Yeah. BSG is it happens to me all the time. Exactly. I mean, do you ever do you ever get that? Do you ever get imposter syndrome? A little bit, Because, gosh, I yeah, I definitely do.
00;26;59;11 - 00;27;19;14
Cullen
Yeah. No, I mean, of course I, I think that that was I mean, one of the most difficult things about the that Hitchcock kind of experiment I did recently was I felt totally just abysmal after it because I was like I was balancing acting and it was the first time really on a major thing that I balanced acting and directing at once, which I was never doing again.
00;27;19;22 - 00;27;20;08
Cullen
Yeah, but.
00;27;21;00 - 00;27;21;07
Clark
That's.
00;27;21;08 - 00;27;39;02
Cullen
Challenge. I just remember I remember feeling like just so inadequate both before and after enduring when it was just like you're trying to and I mean, I know that, I mean, I, I've done enough work before that I know that I had directed something, but it was, it was such a major feeling of dread of just like, Oh, I can't do this.
00;27;39;02 - 00;27;39;17
Cullen
It was yeah.
00;27;39;29 - 00;28;06;14
Clark
So, yeah, I just it's like I really think there's a, there's a great book out there, The Courage to Create, which I highly recommend anybody read. But it's, it's so true that it takes courage to create. Creating is not easy. I don't care what medium you're working in to kind of bring forth something from your imagination and bring it into the world and realize it is scary.
00;28;06;14 - 00;28;29;10
Clark
I think it's just kind of part of the human condition. If it's not scary, that might actually even be a problem. You may not have enough skin in the game. If it's not scary, you may not you know, there may not be enough of you in it if you're not at least a little bit afraid. But but yeah, it's made me feel a little better that he can relate.
00;28;29;21 - 00;28;53;22
Clark
So I want to talk to, you know, about moving into what I think is the most important, you know, So we've talked about that a director should have this working knowledge of every aspect of filmmaking. But I want to I want to talk about what I think is even more important than that. And that, I think fundamentally defines the role of director.
00;28;53;22 - 00;29;17;03
Clark
And that is vision. Mm hmm. Yeah. That I mean, 100%. And, you know, Quentin Tarantino, I won't quote him, but I can kind of paraphrase a little bit. I remembered reading either reading the interview or watching an interview where he, you know, kind of felt overwhelmed by what we've all just what we've just talked about here, you know, about, oh, my gosh, you know, I don't know how to operate camera.
00;29;17;03 - 00;29;49;18
Clark
I don't know every lens available. I don't know, you know, Oh, my gosh. It's just it's overwhelming. What kind of light is this? What kind of light is that? Oh, geez. You know. Well, film stock. Yeah, right. Like, I was overwhelmed. But then he came to some realization, I think maybe like another, you know, more elder director talked to him and said, Hey, your job is to have the vision and to communicate that vision clearly so that everybody, every other department head understands that vision.
00;29;50;13 - 00;30;15;24
Clark
And that's your number one job. And if you got that down, you're good at that. That's that's the most important thing. And I do agree. It's great to have this working knowledge of everything, but I've seen countless times directors on set, not either. They don't have a clear vision or they can't communicate that clear vision. And I mean, that's what you're there to do.
00;30;15;24 - 00;30;17;28
Clark
That is literally what you're there to do.
00;30;18;03 - 00;30;19;09
Cullen
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
00;30;19;22 - 00;30;40;21
Clark
So, you know, Herzog talks about that, about how important it is to to not only have that vision, but then to be able to communicate and even further to be able to inspire everybody else on your set with that vision and really be able to light a fire under people and get them on board and excited about that vision.
00;30;40;21 - 00;30;41;04
Clark
You know?
00;30;41;05 - 00;31;07;10
Cullen
Yeah, And I've got to say too, that the times that I've seen film sets fall flat or things not work are when people take direction as like a managerial position and only a managerial position and get on set and they're there. Their whole role is in their eyes just to kind of sit there and keep the sandcastle up and just kind of look at everyone and go, you know, here's what you have to do, here's what you have to do.
00;31;07;14 - 00;31;16;28
Cullen
But but offer no. Which, of course, is a part of it. But but offer no insight into like the actual creative side or what what is the point of this kind of thing? And one.
00;31;16;28 - 00;31;17;13
Clark
Hundred percent.
00;31;17;13 - 00;31;18;29
Cullen
What are we going for right now?
00;31;19;00 - 00;31;46;23
Clark
I've been there, too. I've been there, too. And it's heartbreaking because it takes so much energy to pull a set together, to pull a film project together. It's such a gift to be on set with a team of people, to be making film, and then to have somebody there at the top. Our leader who doesn't have a burning passion and a clear vision is heartbreaking, man.
00;31;46;23 - 00;31;58;24
Clark
It's why. Why? Because you might as well be an accountant, you know? I mean, great. Go be some middle manager in some like, accounting firm or something if you just manage people that way. My goodness. You know.
00;31;58;24 - 00;32;12;24
Cullen
Oh, exactly. That's that's the thing is it's like, you know, just either either a lot of times it's like you either you have one chance on set to get it to establish kind of the norms of the set. And, you know, as Herzog again, goes into like these rituals.
00;32;13;00 - 00;32;13;11
Clark
Yeah.
00;32;13;11 - 00;32;14;14
Cullen
And I.
00;32;14;14 - 00;32;15;09
Clark
Love, by the way.
00;32;15;09 - 00;32;21;27
Cullen
As stressful as it is, if you break, if you meet messed those things up, it can really reverberate through the entire production process.
00;32;22;13 - 00;32;44;03
Clark
Well, yeah, I totally agree. I mean, he even talks about he goes into this, you know, look at a couple of things real quick. I mean, one, you know, you're not always directing something that you wrote, right? Yeah. Now, now, my goodness. Look, if you wrote it and you're directing it and you don't have a clear vision and you're not passionate about it, then I don't even know what I can say to you.
00;32;44;04 - 00;32;47;27
Clark
I mean, because you wrote the damn thing. So I.
00;32;48;05 - 00;32;48;23
Cullen
And I've seen.
00;32;49;07 - 00;32;49;12
Clark
That.
00;32;49;12 - 00;32;50;10
Cullen
I've seen that too. Yeah.
00;32;50;10 - 00;33;06;28
Clark
I'm at a loss, though, for that. I guess I. Maybe you shouldn't be here doing this then. Frankly, if that's the case now. But it's not always the case that you've written it. You write a lot of times you get opportunities. For example, I am going to have an opportunity to direct something coming up in the future here that I did not write.
00;33;06;28 - 00;33;45;18
Clark
I, you know, closely worked on the, you know, some of the story and everything like that and feedback and whatnot. But I didn't write it. I didn't originate the story. But you in those cases, you've got to find some kind of hook into it for yourself that's personal or make one. In this particular instance, I was able to have input early enough in the process to to put some of myself into that script and that helped me kind of find a hook in and find a way for me to understand the story that I could really rally around and get passionate about.
00;33;45;18 - 00;34;04;17
Clark
And I think you've got to be able to do that, you know? So and you just have to work at it until you do. I would never go into a project, especially as a director, if I weren't totally passionate about it. But you can create that. You know, you can work to create that passion.
00;34;04;17 - 00;34;18;02
Cullen
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't know about you too, but and maybe this is a bit of an aside, but I actually prefer directing things that I haven't written. Okay. Weirdly enough, I find that that connection.
00;34;18;12 - 00;34;24;28
Clark
Can you share a little bit about what? I'm just curious, just personally, you know, nobody's listening. Don't worry.
00;34;24;28 - 00;34;50;01
Cullen
No, I think that it it I think that the the best thing that you can do for yourself as a as a as a director or a filmmaker in general, whether you're writing and not directing or whether you're doing both or whether you're just directing is get as many eyes on the thing as possible and get as much feedback as you can from other people because you're basically exponentially increasing the likelihood that it's going to work with the general audience by going from even just one person working on a story to two people.
00;34;50;25 - 00;34;58;26
Cullen
So what I usually like to do is I like to get a script that's already written by somebody else and then read it as an audience member.
00;34;59;06 - 00;34;59;20
Clark
Yeah, and.
00;34;59;20 - 00;35;22;18
Cullen
Kind of go through that script as in, as in what I'd like to see in there and make changes that way and kind of go through like that. I mean, I know, same with with Kubrick. Kubrick was very similar in that he liked to most of his movies that he he made were based off of books and whether or not they were, you know, totally accurate to the source material is kind of irrelevant.
00;35;22;18 - 00;35;35;19
Cullen
It's more just the fact that he he's, you know, said in interviews as well that he his whole like the joy of his creative process was getting something else that was already preexisting and almost like turning it into a movie as opposed.
00;35;35;19 - 00;35;36;17
Clark
To making it starting.
00;35;36;17 - 00;35;37;24
Cullen
From complete scratch.
00;35;38;11 - 00;36;01;20
Clark
Well, and there's like, you know, there is for every director out there, there's a different way to work. And I, I tend to I actually tend to like what you just described as well. I think it's just because I'm not a great writer, or at least I'm not. I have a one of my greatest challenges is creating a script from scratch.
00;36;01;20 - 00;36;17;10
Clark
It's still very much a challenge for me. It's something I'm working on, but I definitely do have a skill for taking a preexisting story or a script and being able to get as much out of that idea in a.
00;36;17;10 - 00;36;17;23
Cullen
Punch it out.
00;36;17;23 - 00;36;36;23
Clark
As possible. Yeah. Or to or to kind of synergize it, you know, to to take some other ideas that hadn't made themselves aware to that original writer and, you know, hopefully elevate the script even more So it's I, I, I kind of am probably at the same in the same boat as you that that's my preferred way to work.
00;36;36;23 - 00;37;00;24
Clark
Now, of course, I would aspire to be, you know, writer director to actually craft by scripts from scratch. I aspire to do that, but I don't know that that's always necessary. You know, there are definitely great directors out there where who've directed either other scripts or adaptations of other people's stories. So no question, there's a lot of ways to go about it.
00;37;00;24 - 00;37;19;07
Cullen
Yeah, I mean, as you said, I mean, that's an important part too, is that there are a thousand different ways to direct and direct effectively. And there are some very famous directors that do write and direct all of their own movies. But there are also some that that really, you know, don't that just kind of are there for the direction part of it.
00;37;19;07 - 00;37;35;16
Cullen
And but again, like you said it it's interesting because it's it's so often for me it's like there is almost a writing process for me because there is almost a rewriting of that screenplay. And and turning it into something that I'd like to direct from the, the initial draft.
00;37;35;16 - 00;37;57;15
Clark
And in the process, you're make you're developing your passion for it. Yeah, exactly. Kind of yeah. Yeah. It's now you know, it's never happened to me, but I would imagine it would be the case though, that, you know, there are sometimes you may be hired to direct a project, of course, and you don't get the opportunity. You don't have the option to to radically or maybe even subtly change the script.
00;37;58;19 - 00;38;09;14
Clark
And of course, if you're directing television, this is definitely the case every single time, because the directors for television aren't the head honcho to the writer.
00;38;09;14 - 00;38;10;09
Cullen
Just coming in for an.
00;38;10;09 - 00;38;29;05
Clark
Episode or you're just coming in, you're a hired gun for an episode. And of course, you know, television is a writer's medium. So, you know, you you'll still have to find a way into that or hook into that for you. And that may take some gymnastics, so to speak, some imagination, gymnastics. But usually you can, you know, usually you can.
00;38;30;18 - 00;38;56;07
Clark
But, you know, let's segway into, you know, a little bit more of of how would I even say this? You know, Herzog talks about the way he kind of enters into this conversation is by talking about maintaining formality. He talks about, you know when you're working with your cast and crew, at least he said for the vast majority of his of his career, he said maybe this is changing a little bit now.
00;38;56;07 - 00;39;26;03
Clark
He's getting older, but he talks about maintaining formality to be kind, to be polite, to be professional, but to maintain some distance. And, you know, he tells a story, I think, about, Yeah, you know, unless he's like been, you know, like known somebody for ten years and and gotten drunk and, you know, like all these and been to prison and every, you know, not until he's like been through so much does he actually start to like speak, you know, casually with people.
00;39;26;03 - 00;39;39;11
Clark
Yeah. Hey what are you what are your thoughts about? I am kind of, you know, Torn. I definitely can see the, you know, some of the importance of that. But what are your thoughts on level of casualness or formality with your past?
00;39;39;12 - 00;40;02;20
Cullen
I mean, it's not how I work. I don't think I am somebody that, at the end of the day would be happy to go get a beer with the cast and the crew and kind of form those those relationships that are because I think that's that's a pretty important way of doing it for me. But I can also totally empathize with the idea of, you know, even him saying to Nicolas Cage that like, no, no, no, we show up on set and then we talk on set.
00;40;02;20 - 00;40;34;28
Cullen
And other than that, we don't speak and not even in a true way, but just in it, like this is how I work my process, right? I can understand that. And I think again, it's one of those things that it's like what works for some people works for some people. Well, I again, I think that I put more value on the the elements of like being able to make everyone comfortable with openly communicating on a set and and, you know, having an actor, having a relationship with an actor to the point where they can come up to me and kind of say, Hey, I'm not feeling this or I'm you know.
00;40;35;08 - 00;40;54;15
Clark
I certainly would want that. Yeah, I mean, I agree. I think I definitely would not want to reach a place of formality to such extent that an actor or crew member would be afraid of. Yeah. Of communicating with me. Boy, that would be the exact opposite of what I would want. But I mean, so and so for you.
00;40;54;15 - 00;41;15;29
Clark
I'm just curious then. I mean if is there any means with which or sort of ways that you kind of have some sort of divide though, like, oh, how do you maintain your directorial Like, I'm, I'm the director and yes, this is not, you know, I'm not a dictator or something, but I am the director. This is my vision.
00;41;15;29 - 00;41;23;03
Clark
And I mean, if you're too casual or familiar with people, do you find that that becomes a challenge then at all?
00;41;23;05 - 00;41;42;13
Cullen
I think that it's less about estaba pushing those boundaries and more about the attitude that you go in with. And I think that it's about how at least, at least in my experience, it's like you can change everyone's perception of you by just the way you talk to them. Okay, so if I'm talking to an actor on set, I'm still talking to them with authority and I'm still giving them.
00;41;42;14 - 00;41;44;19
Clark
That's because you like scream and yell and curse.
00;41;44;24 - 00;41;46;07
Cullen
Because, well, yeah, you you know that.
00;41;46;10 - 00;41;47;00
Clark
I mean.
00;41;47;00 - 00;42;03;28
Cullen
Sometimes they get a little bit physical, too, and all. I think the dog we're of course kidding but we're of course kids but but no like I think that again it's it's one of those things where it all comes down to just the way, at least for me. I mean, this again, it's one of the things that changes person to person.
00;42;03;28 - 00;42;11;24
Cullen
But but like, if I'm talking to an actor, I can I have no trouble being in charge while simultaneous, like being friendly.
00;42;12;00 - 00;42;12;14
Clark
It's about.
00;42;12;17 - 00;42;18;29
Cullen
Kind of commanding that respect, but also commanding that respect because you earn the respect, not because you're demanding the.
00;42;19;00 - 00;42;49;12
Clark
Westerners. There's a good distinction, and I think this is what Herzog speaks to, you know, understanding every department, that's one way that you earn respect. I that's a great way to put it. I think you're right. I think that you have to earn the respect as a director. If you walk onto a set and you're expecting everybody there to just hand over their respect to you without you having earned it, I think you're in for a much more difficult and less productive shoot than you have to be.
00;42;49;22 - 00;43;21;27
Clark
Yeah, to put it, to put it mildly. And you know, I even want to say, you know, maybe speak a little more to that. How important your your overall character is. You know it might seem like it kind of goes without saying, but I think that it happens often that, you know, people forget that characters aren't just the, you know, the people written it, the roles written into a story that you're going to shoot, you know, character is what you bring to set, and your character is vital on set.
00;43;21;27 - 00;43;45;24
Clark
As a director, you know, it's there is no division. You know, a director is just another word for leader, right? An effect. And and a leader is absolutely, positively, you know, completely holistically connected to every aspect of who you are as a human being. And I say, you know, we see so many issues with ethical issues, of course, with MeToo movement and.
00;43;45;25 - 00;43;46;23
Cullen
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
00;43;47;25 - 00;44;05;18
Clark
You know, it's I don't know if I and I'm not quite sure what the I mean, look, none of us are perfect. Of course I'm not perfect. You're not perfect. I know you think you are sometimes common, but. No, but, you know, I mean, nobody listening is perfect, and so. Yeah, but it is, you know. How honest are you in your life?
00;44;05;18 - 00;44;29;11
Clark
How patient are you? How loyal are you? Your your empathetic ability, your willingness to extend yourself to people? Those aspects of your personality in your day to day life is what you bring to set. And those the those are the those are the things that are going to either earn or lose your respect with everyone you're working with.
00;44;29;18 - 00;44;55;28
Clark
Yeah, you know, yes, you're making a film, but this is this is like somehow not separate from life or anything, you know? I mean, being a leader absolutely involves a high level of integrity, and that's not separate from your day to day life. So I you know, I think we've seen a lot of issues where, you know, people with very suspect ethics get into some really serious problems.
00;44;55;28 - 00;44;56;07
Clark
Yeah.
00;44;57;04 - 00;44;57;24
Cullen
Absolutely.
00;44;57;28 - 00;45;15;00
Clark
And again, of course, it's not to say that we're all perfect, but I mean, there's just some fundamental things that you should be bringing to set, you know, honesty and and, you know, this is this is a work environment. This isn't a pick up bar, you know, or something like, oh.
00;45;15;00 - 00;45;16;08
Cullen
Yeah, you know, that stuff is.
00;45;16;08 - 00;45;17;16
Clark
Yeah. Then yeah.
00;45;17;17 - 00;45;17;28
Cullen
You see.
00;45;17;28 - 00;45;30;09
Clark
It. I've seen it. Oh total and you know, disrespect for all kinds of things. Yeah. I've seen really nasty sexist behavior and.
00;45;30;10 - 00;45;34;08
Cullen
I mean, I'm sure you do too. I know tolerance for that kind of stuff. Like it's.
00;45;34;08 - 00;45;50;19
Clark
Well, and there shouldn't be. There shouldn't be because it doesn't, you know, and I've heard some people say, oh, my gosh, you know, look, if you if you get too pissy or this or that, you're going to you know, you're going to totally take away the you're going to make it impossible for people to be creative. You know it.
00;45;50;21 - 00;45;53;12
Clark
And that's just the horse pucky, man. It's not true.
00;45;53;23 - 00;45;53;29
Cullen
Yeah.
00;45;54;15 - 00;46;02;14
Clark
You know, if you if you need to be racist or sexist or whatever else it is in order to be creative, then.
00;46;02;15 - 00;46;03;10
Cullen
That's your problem.
00;46;03;10 - 00;46;33;29
Clark
You might need to take a Yeah, you might need to take a close look at what your, what you are qualifying as creative as being. Yeah. You know. Yeah. So yeah, I mean I would hope it would go without saying but you know, I don't care what level you're directing at if it's you in three friends you know, and you know you're working in your backyard, I mean just start off pushing yourself to be the kind of leader that you would want to have yourself and work toward that.
00;46;33;29 - 00;46;51;18
Clark
And that's a it's an ongoing process that will never end because we're flawed humans. And that's just the way it is. But at least push yourself to do so and so. And anyway, to tie that back in, I mean, I think that goes along with earning the respect of your cast and crew.
00;46;51;29 - 00;47;11;01
Cullen
And there is there's one conversation that I'll usually have with everyone on set, cast and crew, and that's just more that, you know, I have no problem with being friendly. I have no problem with having casual conversations and having fun. Yeah, but at the end of the day, I'm here to help you do your job, and you're here to help me do mine.
00;47;11;01 - 00;47;19;15
Cullen
And I just that's, that's, that's my expectation is that at the end of the day, that jobs are done to the degree that we're expected to do our jobs.
00;47;19;27 - 00;47;20;05
Clark
And the.
00;47;20;05 - 00;47;34;18
Cullen
Way that, you know, that we can have fun. But if that if that fun starts impeding on anything or if there becomes such a relaxed attitude that it's getting in the way of work, then we'll have another conversation. And normally I've never had really any many issues of weight.
00;47;34;18 - 00;47;46;21
Clark
Yeah, exactly. And Herzog speaks to this. And how do you avoid that? I mean, it's by doing right. Yeah. Set the example by doing he talk he gives some examples of being the first, you know, to never some extreme.
00;47;46;21 - 00;47;47;07
Cullen
Examples.
00;47;47;07 - 00;48;03;03
Clark
Some extreme examples, like I don't know that I would I might feel a little uncomfortable about walking into a minefield myself, but it makes a good analogy right? Yeah, metaphorical minefield. But yeah, of course. You know, in Grand Herzog style, he's got one of these great examples, you know. Well, I.
00;48;03;03 - 00;48;16;06
Cullen
Mean, that's another way of just of commanding a tent or not that sort of commanding respect. This is I've had points where I've been on sets where it's like I think that as a director you should be the first in line. Did exactly what you said.
00;48;16;19 - 00;48;18;22
Clark
You're the first to show up. There was one case where.
00;48;18;22 - 00;48;31;15
Cullen
We had we had fake blood on the ground. There was some fake blood outside on the ground. And we were like, Well, we need to make it look like a body has been dragged through this blood. And I said, All right, somebody dragged me through it, like, I don't care if I get like, we have to do.
00;48;31;15 - 00;48;32;12
Clark
We have some B-roll.
00;48;32;12 - 00;48;45;19
Cullen
I don't want to work. I wish we did. But but again, it was one of those funny things where I was just kind of like, you know, I'm not going to get somebody else to drag themselves through it. I don't care if my clothes get to have blood on them. So I just kind of lie down on the ground and got them to drag me through it.
00;48;45;19 - 00;48;46;17
Cullen
And I was like, There we go.
00;48;46;26 - 00;49;06;15
Clark
And it doesn't even have to be in such grand or physical, you know, but just, you know, being the first to show up, being the last, to leave, you know, to to behave on set, the way you expect other people to behave is so important. I mean, as the director, you are setting the tone for that entire set.
00;49;07;03 - 00;49;28;11
Clark
And it's it's you can't ignore it. You can't skate by it. It you are absolutely as the director going to set the entire tone for how people are behaving on that set. And, I mean, I guess that's why it's so important to bring the absolute best of who you are on to set every day. Because as the leader, guess what?
00;49;28;11 - 00;49;48;11
Clark
That's that's this is the job that you've asked for, you know, and that's a big part of it. And so if you're not present, if you're showing up late, if you're not well rested and, you know, goofing off, guess what? Other people are going to be doing? They're going to they're going to live only up to the example that you're going to set nine times out of ten.
00;49;48;11 - 00;49;50;06
Clark
And in my experience. So, yeah.
00;49;50;27 - 00;50;06;14
Cullen
And I think I mean, just to just to perhaps wrap up in these last few minutes. Yeah. I think that that all comes down to also, you know, with vision and all that and preparation and getting everyone to do their jobs as to do the doable and Herzog does that great talking about that great anecdote about trying to get ants.
00;50;06;28 - 00;50;07;28
Clark
Yeah, freezing.
00;50;07;28 - 00;50;24;11
Cullen
Ants. Yeah exactly. Two to go one temperature. You go one degree above the stars, they die, you go one degree below. They they get so, like, lethargic or lethargic that they don't move. And then just canceling that idea because it's like, I'm not going to sit here all day and make my crew wait for these ants to do something that they may never do.
00;50;24;12 - 00;50;45;20
Clark
It's a good point. And even a right and especially it's like, you know, we often think of Herzog. I love how he goes out of his way to point out, No, look, I accept no for an answer. He's like, people think I don't accept no for an answer. I definitely accept no for an answer, of course. And you know, that flexibility is so important and the end to have some sense of, okay, we need to we need to redesign this.
00;50;45;20 - 00;51;06;21
Clark
This is not doable. This may not be safe for my actors. It's clearly vital to have some sense of that. And I even would you know, another aspect of this flexibility of of doing the doable is to to take opportunity is the unexpected. The catastrophes that, you know, they talk about make catastrophes part of your story in this lesson.
00;51;07;06 - 00;51;27;25
Clark
I mean, there could be as long as it's safe for everybody there. You know, of course, catastrophe can mean many different things. It doesn't have to be a flood like the, you know, example that Herzog gives from Aguirre. But to just have that flexibility to take advantage of what's happening, and that can be even that could be a small thing.
00;51;27;25 - 00;51;51;00
Clark
Like an actor. May has an accident on on on during the scene. But that brings forth some really extraordinary behavior or really livens up that scene or to something substantial like your set is flooded and, you know, holy crap, you can either run away from that or you can incorporate that into the story and get some amazing footage.
00;51;51;00 - 00;52;14;10
Clark
So so absolutely, those are important. And I you know, he ends this is this is a funny one. Not a funny one, but this is it's an interesting ending on this lesson. Herzog talks about fortifying yourself. Right. We've talked about I mean, it sounds like and it is that you're asking a lot of yourself when you're putting yourself in the position of a director.
00;52;14;19 - 00;52;37;15
Clark
It is a big role. Yeah. And I think if you're taking it seriously, there is if you are asking a lot of yourself and I love that he ends this lesson talking about, well, how do you fortify yourself? And he says he uses language like, you know, I fortify myself with philosophy or find refuge in poetry, anchors of safety.
00;52;37;21 - 00;53;08;06
Clark
I love this language that he uses. And I think that it speaks to, you know, my kind of interpretation of it is how it speaks to how holistically intrinsic every aspect of your humanity is involved in being a director, how grounded you are, how you know, all like the way you see life, your philosophies of understanding the world around you when you're a director.
00;53;08;06 - 00;53;34;08
Clark
It just it brings forth everything from who you are. You should be bringing everything that you've got. And so to me, like working on being a better director is every single day. It's not just when I'm on set, right? Every day in my life. I mean, I you know, if I'm like working with a crew to build a fence in my backyard, I'm like, you know, trying to learn how to be a better leader.
00;53;34;27 - 00;53;38;16
Clark
Yeah. And I don't know. You know what? I just I think that it's.
00;53;38;27 - 00;53;41;07
Cullen
And it infuses in every single kind of acid.
00;53;41;08 - 00;54;09;16
Clark
And I'm so down to, like, what's the caliber of literature that you're reading? What's, you know, what kind of work are you doing on yourself to, to exercise your empathetic muscles, to expand your understanding of other people around you and of yourself? I just it's and that to me is it's in part overwhelming, but it's also extraordinarily challenging in a really wonderful way.
00;54;10;02 - 00;54;15;27
Clark
So that's that's my take home from that. I thought it was an extraordinary ending to that lesson.
00;54;16;04 - 00;54;17;19
Cullen
Yes. Yeah, totally.
00;54;17;28 - 00;54;42;26
Clark
Well, there we go. I think on that note, we'll wrap it up. Well, Cullen, as always, man, thank you so much for a wonderful conversation. I hope our audience enjoyed it as much as I have, and I look forward to next week's episode where we are going to discuss lesson nine of Herzog's master class set rules. So until then, everybody, have a wonderful week.
00;54;43;10 - 00;54;44;25
Clark
We will see you soon.
00;54;45;01 - 00;54;52;18
Cullen
Yep. See you guys then.