00:00:10:17
Clark
Hello, everybody, and welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. As always, I'm Clark Coffey, and with me is Mr. Cullen McFater.
00:00:21:02 - 00:00:23:21
Cullen
Hello. Well, what's come? Allergies are better this week.
00:00:24:20 - 00:00:46:22
Clark
Oh, right. Excellent. Yeah. Hopefully I won't have to edit out so many sneezes this time. I am glad that your allergies are doing better. But yeah, we're here once again to talk about another one of our films that we have that we spend hours and hours and hours mulling over, deciding what to pick, what to discuss with you guys there in the audience.
00:00:47:06 - 00:00:55:17
Clark
And this time around it's Colin's pick and he has chosen 1995 Michael Mann masterpiece Heat.
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Cullen
Yes, a epic of crime.
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Clark
An epic.
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Cullen
Romance.
00:01:01:13 - 00:01:05:16
Clark
And an epic of epic proportions of epic ness.
00:01:05:16 - 00:01:13:04
Cullen
And I mean, this is not a by any means a not well known movie similar to last week's, which was, you know, both these are very famous.
00:01:13:04 - 00:01:14:23
Clark
I've never seen this before. Ever heard of it.
00:01:14:23 - 00:01:19:06
Cullen
I Oh, really? Yeah. No, it's I mean, it's an indie. It's, it's maybe it's popular up here in Canada, right?
00:01:19:06 - 00:01:25:22
Clark
Well, you know, I know that Michael Mann, you know, he's only made a few small things and most people don't know of them.
00:01:25:22 - 00:01:26:21
Cullen
And here and there.
00:01:27:00 - 00:01:39:17
Clark
I it was actually really hard for me to find this. You know, I had to I had to dig and dig. And then I finally found a Criterion Collection disc in the bargain bin at my local goodwill. Yeah. Yep.
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Cullen
And there's not you know, he doesn't really have that distinctive style. So you kind of got to really search for him when you're watching.
00:01:45:10 - 00:01:51:21
Clark
And he never works with big actors. So it's like, Yeah, I know, I know. It's it was tough, but I did. But I did find a copy.
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Cullen
Yeah. No, but it's this is it's, it's.
00:01:55:09 - 00:01:55:15
Clark
Not.
00:01:55:19 - 00:01:57:18
Cullen
One of my favorites. Definitely. Without a doubt. Yeah.
00:01:57:18 - 00:02:10:13
Clark
It's not a hidden gem. Yeah, it's not a hidden gem. And probably most of you out there listening, you have. You have not only heard of, but you have seen this film as well. Almost Certainly you have. But yeah, I mean, let's jump into. Why did you pick it?
00:02:12:05 - 00:02:30:13
Cullen
I actually I don't I don't know why it came to my mind. It was it was a really, as you know, was a really quick choice. I like pretty much as we wrapped up the last episode, I was like, I know exactly what I want to do next right? I don't I don't know what spurred it on. I mean, I guess more broadly speaking, it's always been a movie that I've loved since I first saw it.
00:02:30:13 - 00:02:47:00
Cullen
I think that it's it's you know, biometrics. I think it's a masterpiece. I think that it's one of those movies that you can watch and you're like, you know, there's there's almost nothing that I am, like, iffy on at all. Yeah. If anything at all. It's it's, um.
00:02:47:13 - 00:03:00:08
Clark
Well, tell me about that. I mean, tell me about, you know, so this film came out when I was a kid, depending on the month and I forget, but I think probably like freshman or sophomore in college.
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Cullen
Is December of 1990.
00:03:02:06 - 00:03:03:02
Clark
Five. Okay.
00:03:03:02 - 00:03:05:14
Cullen
So that was I was negative two and a half.
00:03:05:14 - 00:03:13:07
Clark
You were negative two and a half. So when did you first see this movie and what were your thoughts on it for the first time that you saw it?
00:03:14:00 - 00:03:23:19
Cullen
The first time I saw it, I was in probably grade ten. It was right around the time that grand theft Auto five came out. So 2000.
00:03:24:09 - 00:03:25:11
Clark
Is that why you saw it?
00:03:26:06 - 00:03:48:08
Cullen
Yeah. No, I saw I played. Oh, really? Five and I'd played a few the other GTA games. Like I was always a pretty big fan of them. Fun. Um, and there was just so many references to it in the game. Like even just the story itself, half of the heists are heat related and the main characters is, is like basically, um, you know, De Niro in heat.
00:03:48:12 - 00:03:48:20
Clark
Uh huh.
00:03:48:22 - 00:04:09:20
Cullen
Um, and I, I had seen, you know, everyone's seen the big gunfight in the shootout at the bank. HEIST Yeah. You know, it's a really famous scene. LA Um, and so I'd seen that, and I just remember, uh, watching it or sorry, playing, playing GTA and just going like, you know what? I should probably finally see Heat.
00:04:09:20 - 00:04:15:07
Clark
Now, how did you know that it was based on heat or that it was how did you know that the game was inspired?
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Cullen
Say, I just seen the clips before and okay, you know, it's one of those movies that even though I hadn't seen, I knew a lot of you do love it either vague, you know, storyline and it was about bank heists and robberies and stuff in L.A. Right? And I always, you know, I think that it was one of those things that like going into it, I didn't expect to like it nearly as much as I did.
00:04:33:08 - 00:04:50:13
Cullen
Not that I expected to not like it, but I expected to kind of watch it and have it be one of those movies that you're like, Yeah, that's good. You know, it's a good movie. I did not expect it to to, you know, be something that is so, you know, again, still to this day, one of my favorite movies.
00:04:51:05 - 00:04:55:03
Cullen
And I think the reason for that was because I had seen Manhunter before.
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Clark
Now before you had seen.
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Cullen
Before I had seen.
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Clark
Okay.
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Cullen
And for those of you who don't know, Manhunter is based on the book Red Dragon, which is the book that came up before Silence of the Lambs. So that was like so that's why I I've always loved Silence of the Lambs. And so I had seen Manhunter, and I'm not huge on Manhunter. I think it's it's a fun movie.
00:05:16:06 - 00:05:37:01
Cullen
I think it's really good. But I think silence of the Lambs is is a much better crafted film for that kind of genre and that kind of story. I think Manhunter is a little bit too like, you know, Miami Vice in some places it gets a little bit kind of like crime, you know, action for for, for my my taste in that, you know, genre.
00:05:37:01 - 00:05:55:11
Cullen
And so I don't think I really expected to love Heat but like I do, I think this is like a five out of five, you know, five stars, two thumbs up. I think. I think the reason for that, though, is just because how how refined, how well-crafted, how restrained Mann's direction is.
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Clark
Like, what stood out to you when you when you were in 10th grade when just.
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Cullen
The I mean I think that the performances as well. But I think that it's and I'm going to get into this more and you know, I've mentioned this a little bit before, but I think that, you know, when we talk about Mann's direction, I'll get into it in more detail. But I think that it it was kind of the first thing that really introduced me to like what I kind of coined is like vibe filmmaking.
00:06:19:06 - 00:06:20:08
Clark
Which is the setting.
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Cullen
Where every scene exudes the tone, it exudes the like the the theme, just the feel, the overall feel of of a scene is permeated with with the overarching, you know, theme and tone of the film, whether that is the music that is kind of underlying, even in the simplest of dialog scenes where there's just kind of like a little bit of a drone.
00:06:45:20 - 00:07:06:01
Cullen
The cinematography in each scene is so dramatic and heightened, but not in a distracting way, in a way that serves the story really, really, really fantastically. Um, and so I think it was kind of the first time that, that, you know, you kind of watch a movie and you go like, you know, you're obviously taking things, especially as someone who, you know, was young and really into film and stuff like that.
00:07:06:01 - 00:07:13:03
Cullen
You, you're always trying to pick up on, you know, not necessarily techniques in a literal sense of like writing down like, oh, well, how do they move?
00:07:13:03 - 00:07:14:03
Clark
Right? But you're so put.
00:07:14:03 - 00:07:32:19
Cullen
It up on on Yeah. The workmanship of, of a director. Yeah. And I think that this was just something different. It was just, it was something similar but also different like, you know, when something is really accessible and something is really easy to easy to watch and get into, sort of very similar to what we were talking about last week.
00:07:33:01 - 00:08:01:01
Cullen
Pulp Fiction, um, where it's very accessible, it's very easy to get into. Yeah, but at the same time it's unapologetically personal to the person making it. You know, man is all over this movie through and through. Yeah. And so I think that that's something that really, you know, proves that it is possible to be a really, really individual, unique filmmaker while simultaneously making a movie that is pretty widely beloved by most people.
00:08:01:14 - 00:08:14:08
Cullen
You know, anyone who's a fan of film usually references this as a as a really good flick, a really good action flick. You know, it's cited as one of the best action movies of all time. And there's honestly not even a ton of action in it.
00:08:15:05 - 00:08:17:05
Clark
But the action that's there is great, but.
00:08:17:06 - 00:08:31:14
Cullen
It's fantastic and very intense. I mean, I always forget how intense that robbery scene is. The the shootout, like you're you're sitting there watching it and you're like, oh, you know, I know what's coming. I know it's coming. And then suddenly you're just like, gripped to the screen and you're you're on the edge of your seat, literally.
00:08:32:01 - 00:08:32:11
Clark
Yeah.
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Cullen
Just there. It's so, so.
00:08:34:12 - 00:08:35:17
Clark
Inland and so and.
00:08:35:17 - 00:08:43:03
Cullen
Then you realize it's one of those scenes where at the end of the scene, when they drive off you, you release your breath and you're like, I was just holding my breath the whole time. Yeah. You know, it's.
00:08:43:04 - 00:09:05:16
Clark
It's in the land, in the land before CGI. These are these are the things that we had kids in the land before CGI, you know, But, well, you know, so that's funny. So I guess kind of in a way, the GTA or video games kind of led you to to check out this film. I guess for lack of a right in in it for the most part.
00:09:06:03 - 00:09:22:14
Clark
I mean, for me, it's like I grew up, you know, I grew up in the eighties or at least partially in the eighties, eighties and nineties and, you know, so I first kind of knew who Michael Mann was because of Miami Vice. Miami Vice was he I think exact produced that his name was all over that show.
00:09:22:19 - 00:09:25:01
Cullen
And for the directed a few episodes the pilot I think.
00:09:25:05 - 00:09:43:22
Clark
Probably I don't take many but a few but it definitely his stamp is on that and that was that show was like instantly became a big part of pop culture when I was a kid, right? So when I was like ten or whatever, that show was like a big part of pop culture and nuts still is. Yeah, I guess that's fair.
00:09:43:22 - 00:10:04:17
Clark
That's fair. I mean, its impact is still, is still felt. And uh, so, so I kind of had had that a little bit of a background there, you know, not that I like really consciously knew who Michael Mann was, but by the time this came out again, I'm like a sophomore ish in college. So I kind of, you know, knew all those things.
00:10:04:22 - 00:10:26:15
Clark
Of course I knew who Al Pacino was. Of course I knew who De Niro was. I had seen their other work. They were about as big an actors as you could get at that time in 95. And I had seen other work of Michael Mann's. I'm trying to put the timing down, but I think, you know, like Last of the Mohicans I saw in the theater, I think that was the film that he made right before he.
00:10:26:17 - 00:10:40:06
Clark
So I watched that at the theater when it came out, and I liked that quite a bit. So all of it's like, you know, all these things that's like already on my radar, right? So yeah, so it was like a no brainer for me to go see this film when it came out.
00:10:40:14 - 00:10:47:10
Cullen
Was this the first time Pacino and De Niro were like, costars like this?
00:10:47:13 - 00:10:51:23
Clark
So not not costars, but in a scene where they actually acted.
00:10:52:00 - 00:10:54:12
Cullen
Yeah, because they'd been in Godfather, but they never had any scenes.
00:10:54:15 - 00:11:09:18
Clark
They did Godfather to Godfather two, but they were in any scenes together. Yeah. So? So that was like one of the big marketing hooks for this role. It was like, you know, see Pacino and De Niro, you know, together, you know, in the same film, in the same scene.
00:11:10:15 - 00:11:17:15
Cullen
And speaking of Miami Vice as well, I've heard that Mann's new show, Tokyo Vice's is really good.
00:11:18:03 - 00:11:21:02
Clark
Well, I didn't even know that he had a new show. He directed the.
00:11:21:02 - 00:11:22:03
Cullen
Pilot of that as well.
00:11:22:14 - 00:11:24:14
Clark
As he pitched. Is that on HBO?
00:11:25:11 - 00:11:29:15
Cullen
Not sure what it's on. Uh, I think it's HBO, though. I think it's on HBO or.
00:11:29:16 - 00:11:31:17
Clark
Or what was the name of it again?
00:11:32:01 - 00:11:32:21
Cullen
Tokyo Vice.
00:11:32:21 - 00:11:34:10
Clark
Tokyo Vice. That's interesting.
00:11:34:10 - 00:11:35:16
Cullen
Is based off of a book.
00:11:36:09 - 00:11:38:19
Clark
Yes, I think that is on HBO. Max.
00:11:38:19 - 00:11:39:05
Cullen
HBO.
00:11:39:05 - 00:11:42:20
Clark
Max. Yeah, Yeah. I think that's on HBO. Max I'll have to check that out. But yeah.
00:11:42:20 - 00:11:57:18
Cullen
I've heard, I've heard good things about that. But, you know, I think, I think that that's, you know, I, that Michael Mann is I knew him as the director that defined the driving down a street with the halogen lights above you at night.
00:11:57:18 - 00:12:02:23
Clark
And the camera and the cameras lights it's like placed, you know, like right behind like the.
00:12:03:09 - 00:12:06:00
Cullen
Most iconic scene in Miami. Vice in the air.
00:12:06:00 - 00:12:08:03
Clark
Tonight and the air tonight. Absolutely. And I think that's and.
00:12:08:03 - 00:12:10:10
Cullen
I used to drive around like that all the time in high school.
00:12:10:19 - 00:12:11:14
Clark
And I think.
00:12:11:14 - 00:12:12:19
Cullen
That that's. Yeah.
00:12:12:20 - 00:12:15:15
Clark
So it's iconic. It's iconic and his yeah you speak to.
00:12:15:16 - 00:12:25:17
Cullen
Again and another inspiration I actually didn't really think about this but drive the Nicolas Winding Refn film is very clearly you know.
00:12:25:17 - 00:12:41:14
Clark
There's so much out there Yeah yeah yeah so I yeah so so anyway it was like all these things, you know, it's like, of course I'm going to go see this film. Interestingly though, enough, like I don't have a specific memory of the first time I saw it. I can't recall if I saw this in a theater. I don't recall if I saw this on home video.
00:12:41:18 - 00:12:59:19
Clark
I think it's it's it's likely I saw it in the theater, but I can't remember that. But it's one of those films that I just feel like I've always known. Right? It's like I just feel like this film is just like kind of a part of my cinematic mind and body, you know? I like, you know, it's like always been there.
00:13:00:00 - 00:13:22:23
Clark
It was almost funny is like when I, you know, of course I watched it again to get it fresh in my mind. And it actually hasn't even been that long since I've seen it. I saw this with my my wife, I think, and maybe some friends just like maybe four or five years ago. So it's not even been that long since I've seen it, watched it again for this, and it almost just feels like like an old friend, you know, it just feels like like I know every moment.
00:13:22:23 - 00:13:37:19
Clark
I kind of know every beat. I'm like, oh, yeah, there's, you know, look how young Pacino and De Niro is, you know? Oh, my gosh, you know, Oh, what's her face? Gosh, I like Portman. Look how Natalie Portman is. Just Oh.
00:13:37:19 - 00:13:39:22
Cullen
Yeah. I always forget that she's in the studio somehow.
00:13:39:22 - 00:13:40:06
Clark
I know.
00:13:40:06 - 00:13:42:17
Cullen
I'm always like, she comes on. I'm like, Oh, yeah, I.
00:13:42:17 - 00:13:45:16
Clark
Know, I know. I'm like, Look how young she is. And Natalie.
00:13:45:16 - 00:13:48:00
Cullen
Portman and Ted Levine are the two people that I'm always like, happily.
00:13:48:00 - 00:14:01:11
Clark
Surprised. And I mean, it's like and I always I have this thing where I'm like, Val, I'm like Val Kilmer, who I quite like, and I'm like, Val Kilmer and his elbow. If you ever noticed the giant tumor on his elbow in this movie.
00:14:02:00 - 00:14:04:11
Cullen
No, what I've never.
00:14:04:11 - 00:14:11:04
Clark
Seen not to digress so far, but I am like, I cannot not stare at it when I watch this.
00:14:11:04 - 00:14:13:12
Cullen
Having never let me take a look.
00:14:13:12 - 00:14:33:19
Clark
I'm Google. It's okay if you google Val Kilmer's elbow heat. So I think it's on his left arm and it's like the size of a baseball and it's right at his elbow. And I don't know what it is. There's like speculation. Maybe it's a lipoma or like, you know, some kind of weird hematoma or something or some kind of benign tumor.
00:14:33:19 - 00:14:44:18
Clark
I don't know, but holy crap, I'm telling you, every time I watch this film. So it's like just all these little pieces that I'm like, just brings me right back home. I'm like, Oh, yeah, You know.
00:14:45:09 - 00:14:49:22
Cullen
I had never, ever seen that before. That's interesting. I didn't notice it.
00:14:50:04 - 00:14:51:04
Clark
But yeah.
00:14:51:05 - 00:14:51:22
Cullen
A little piece of trivia.
00:14:51:22 - 00:15:18:22
Clark
A little piece of trivia for you. So. So anyway, I guess you know, so. So this is just one of those movies that I feel like it's always been there. It's not you know, it isn't like a huge piece of, of, of, of inspiration for me. But, but in a way it kind of it's not is like how to say this it's an inspiration but it's not like a real flashy inspiration, you know like yeah it's not, it's, it's not flashy.
00:15:18:22 - 00:15:37:23
Clark
I just feel like Michael Mann is like this steady, steady, kind of solid, you know, director who's made a handful of really fantastic films. And it isn't to say that he doesn't have a specific style. He certainly does. But I don't know. You know, it's it's understated. Maybe maybe that's a good way to say it, is that.
00:15:37:23 - 00:15:39:09
Cullen
It's very low key.
00:15:39:09 - 00:16:00:15
Clark
It's very as far as how as far as like, how I've integrated into my cinema world and how it's become kind of part of my psyche. Yeah, it's kind of a little understated, but nonetheless important. So. So, yeah, you know, this is always, you know, if you were to say, hey, you know, the list of like, you know, top crime flicks or heist flicks or action flicks, this would be there for me.
00:16:00:23 - 00:16:25:02
Clark
And I really feel like, you know, in my mind, this is just the way that I kind of skew things. I feel like this is like a like the best crime heist B movie ever made. It's clearly not a B-movie, but I mean, it's like the best heist movie that would be like a genre flick if it didn't have any budget and didn't have Pacino and De Niro in it.
00:16:25:19 - 00:16:44:06
Clark
It's like the best that that could ever be made. You know what I mean? It's like a noir. It's like this mix of like, you know, it's it's got a lot of nore undertones. I mean, it's shot in a lot of ways. Norrish It's like L.A. Night Dark. I mean, hell, this would make a beautiful black and white film.
00:16:44:13 - 00:16:45:12
Cullen
Oh, yeah.
00:16:46:03 - 00:16:54:17
Clark
But anyway, you know, so. So. So, yeah, I just this is one of those films that just always feels like it's been there. I can't imagine it not existing, you know?
00:16:56:12 - 00:17:23:19
Cullen
No, it's. And I think the other thing, too, is that it's, you know, as I sort of mentioned the beginning, it I think in the way that you're kind of talking about how it's like he's he's very understated with his his style. Like there's a very clearly a michael Mann style. But it's kind of hard to necessarily like pinpoint because it's not like someone like Spielberg where you could say like, oh, well, you know, lots of dollies, lots of push ins, These like really fantastically, you know, Yeah.
00:17:23:21 - 00:17:45:20
Cullen
Framed shots and that are that are like blocked exceptionally and very cinematically, for lack of a better term. Man. You know, I would say again, it's sort of like very tone in the way that he he kind of like permeates his film. It's music The themes like go theme just are so, so kind of hammered.
00:17:45:22 - 00:17:46:22
Clark
There's a masculinity.
00:17:46:22 - 00:18:06:23
Cullen
Overwrought way but but a Yeah a lot of it's yeah it's like a lot of it's about, you know, the masculinity of these characters and you know, note like that's what I think is, is interesting about this movie is that it also doesn't go in any way to, to kind of like redeem it, like the characters are just kind of like lived in this world.
00:18:06:23 - 00:18:08:14
Cullen
They're not well, that's not I.
00:18:08:14 - 00:18:25:22
Clark
Want to talk I want to talk about that before we get so before we get into any more kind of detail stuff, because I feel like it's kind of an extension of like your personal experience with the film and everything. I'm curious to know to hear. And of course I'm going to share some notes, not like I'm putting you on the spot and then I'm not going to do the same.
00:18:26:05 - 00:18:42:13
Clark
But I'm curious like what? You know, when you watch this, I assume you watched it again recently for this. You know, like what's what's in your interpretation? No wrong answer. Like, what do you think Michael Mann is exploring in this film? Like what parts that stick out to you? You know, like at.
00:18:42:13 - 00:18:52:23
Cullen
Its heart, I believe that it's kind of like exploring, you know, obsession and addiction and things like that and like compulsion to.
00:18:53:04 - 00:18:53:16
Clark
Tell me right.
00:18:53:16 - 00:19:27:02
Cullen
Down to the final kind of decision that that Pacino may or De Niro makes in the film, that it's all about like he just can't let this one last thing go. Yeah and and it goes into the even when it involves relationships that it's about this like obsession with with you know, control over the relationships and and you know on the inverse, you know Pacino's wife is is obsessed with the idea of just having a normal life.
00:19:27:12 - 00:19:44:06
Cullen
She's she's like addicted to that and she just wants this this happy and that, you know, she goes off in and has an affair just to, as she says in the film, like just to have some sort of a closure with him because she just wants things to be like, you know, normal. She's dating a homicide cop.
00:19:44:07 - 00:19:44:16
Clark
Yeah.
00:19:45:12 - 00:20:01:06
Cullen
Or married, too. Yeah. And so I think that that kind of again, I think that that really goes through, you know, not necessarily in an explicitly like drug related sense because there's not really, you know, a ton of of like explicit drug use that comes up in the.
00:20:01:14 - 00:20:04:05
Clark
I have an interesting piece of trivia, though, about that.
00:20:04:12 - 00:20:14:02
Cullen
But it is but I think that it is I think it's ultimately about, you know, the downfall of obsession and addiction. Okay. To how close DeNiro gets to getting out.
00:20:14:03 - 00:20:15:15
Clark
Yeah that's interesting.
00:20:15:15 - 00:20:33:18
Cullen
And and but he just he just has to you know it's always just like the one last thing. It's the one last thing. It's the you know Yeah. Not necessarily in this one. It's not necessarily one last score that takes him down. Well, I guess it's sort of the the effect of one last score. But, um, but yeah, that's kind of how I see it.
00:20:33:20 - 00:20:55:16
Clark
Okay. Yeah. And that that's totally valid. And I absolutely there there's definitely I think there's a lot that speaks to that. I mean, Al Pacino you could certainly argue Al Pacino is the both of these characters. Al Pacino is obsessed with the Hunt, and De Niro is obsessed with applying his craft. You know, he says, like, I don't know how to do anything different.
00:20:55:16 - 00:21:15:00
Clark
This is what I'm good at. You know? Yeah, but and that's where I think good art is going to automatically. Like you're going to have a ton of different interpretations of theme when art is good. So my interpretation is totally different. And what's interesting, at least to me it's interesting, is that my interpretation has so changed as I've gotten older.
00:21:15:07 - 00:21:39:01
Clark
I think when I was your age or younger, I might have said something very similar to what you're saying now. And I, you know, be just as right as you are when I watch it now, at 46, I see something so different in this film, and I actually don't know that I either didn't feel this as strongly or I didn't kind of think about it long enough to articulate it.
00:21:39:02 - 00:21:59:20
Clark
You know, the last time I watched it a few years ago. But but what this film means to me and when I thought about this, it it really elevated my appreciation of the film just recently, like really elevated it to a level that I had not it not had not approached this level ever before, having seen it. And that's this.
00:21:59:20 - 00:22:16:17
Clark
So not to get to, you know, well, yeah, it's okay. We can get philosophical and even I wonder sometimes in these things, why not? That's what we're here to do, right? Everybody else can talk about Lyn's links and ooh, which I do want to talk to you about in this film, because I know you love wide lenses, but yeah, not Michael Mann.
00:22:16:17 - 00:22:34:17
Clark
Okay, but let me stay on track. So. So for me, you know, here's what I kind of see. It's like and I think this is really key. So you've got to Niro and he's like, Look, I live this life where it's like, I can't have any attachments. 30 seconds. If I can't, you know, I have to drop it all in 30 seconds.
00:22:34:17 - 00:22:53:11
Clark
Ah, and be out of here. Like, that's how you've got to be. And, and so you see, like he's De Niro is presented as this, like, I mean it's very like he walks into his place and there's like three plates and two cups and there's no furniture and, you know, it's just beautiful home. Like Lord knows what that home cost on the beach.
00:22:53:11 - 00:23:18:22
Clark
But it's there's no life in it. There's no life at all. And it's just like he's he's gray, gray suit, gray hair, bland. You know, there's like he's he's and he's older. I mean, he's obviously, you know, approaching 50 in this film, Right. The character. But let me get to the point, Clark. So when I see this film, what I what really stands out to me is about the relationships.
00:23:19:09 - 00:23:41:16
Clark
So if Al Pacino, in his relationship with his wife or soon to be ex wife and, you know, we have De Niro and he has sacrificed to pursue this one thing in his life, he has established his life. He has created his life in a way where he has no connections to He doesn't share his life with anybody else.
00:23:42:00 - 00:23:50:04
Clark
There's no romantic connection in his life whatsoever. And it's on purpose because he sees that as a distraction to his purpose.
00:23:50:13 - 00:23:51:10
Cullen
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:23:52:06 - 00:24:31:06
Clark
Then he meets someone totally on accident, completely against his will. Right? And he falls in love, or he's falling in love with this woman against his better judgment, almost against, like, his desire, because he knows that he can't have these attachments because it will distract him from being good at his purpose. Right. And and I think this film, you know, he ultimately he decides to leave the relationship to abandon the relationship, to stick with his so-called purpose, and he ends up dying because of that.
00:24:31:19 - 00:24:43:04
Clark
Mm. And you have Pacino who also chooses to say he makes the same choice. His wife leaves him his third wife. I think that's his third marriage in their.
00:24:43:04 - 00:24:43:17
Cullen
Relationship.
00:24:43:20 - 00:24:44:00
Clark
Their.
00:24:44:00 - 00:24:44:13
Cullen
Marriage to.
00:24:44:16 - 00:24:48:14
Clark
His daughter. And I think I actually think it's not his biological daughter in.
00:24:48:14 - 00:24:49:17
Cullen
The story They bring.
00:24:49:18 - 00:25:08:18
Clark
Biological. Yeah, it's her biological, but she attempts suicide in his hotel room there. None of these characters are happy, right? In the end, it's it's not it's not like there's some victory for Pacino even, Right? It's almost.
00:25:08:18 - 00:25:09:18
Cullen
Like fact. It's fact.
00:25:09:19 - 00:25:11:21
Clark
I don't quite surprise that.
00:25:12:00 - 00:25:13:18
Cullen
That Pacino's almost.
00:25:13:18 - 00:25:14:16
Clark
Like a sad.
00:25:14:18 - 00:25:18:09
Cullen
A little bit sad for sure. These are they they justify each other.
00:25:18:09 - 00:25:35:09
Clark
They justify each other and they know each other. They know each other. They're both the same thing. And and so to me, I kind of feel like, wow, this is like a really strong statement about what happens to your soul when you refuse a call to love.
00:25:36:08 - 00:25:36:16
Cullen
Mm hmm.
00:25:37:09 - 00:25:57:10
Clark
And in my because I feel like there's, like a parallel kind of situation happen to me, I made a different choice. I had set my life up. I had designed my life very specifically. No relationships, no serious attachments. I am pursuing this one dream, and that's all I'm doing. And if I have other things, then it's going to distract me.
00:25:57:10 - 00:26:21:00
Clark
I can't have these kind of emotional attachments. They take too much time and energy. I made a different choice and I'm really happy that I did. And so obviously my own experience, my own background, my, you know, has colored my interpretation of it. But to me, this is one of the most kickass, awesome, subtle, nuanced films about that decision in life.
00:26:21:00 - 00:26:31:20
Clark
And I think we all have similar types of decisions that we have to make in our life without being over-the-top or saccharine or cheesy or, you know, So I don't know.
00:26:31:20 - 00:26:55:03
Cullen
And I think to drive that point home to two scenes or two elements, there's one moment when they're at the restaurant and dinner is the only one that's alone. He's the only one without a family. And he very clearly is seeing that. Yeah. Yeah. And the second thing is that who is the villain of the film but somebody who is like an abomination to love, who sleeps with prostitutes and murders them.
00:26:55:04 - 00:26:55:22
Cullen
Yeah.
00:26:56:07 - 00:26:58:00
Clark
Wayne Groh is really.
00:26:58:00 - 00:27:08:10
Cullen
Yeah. He's the opposite end of of even like if you were to take, you know the coin that is De Niro Pacino in those two and they're at the Wayne.
00:27:08:10 - 00:27:09:05
Clark
Grosser the.
00:27:09:05 - 00:27:11:21
Cullen
Same thing and Winegrowers is kind of the antithesis.
00:27:11:21 - 00:27:13:04
Clark
Of the antithesis of that. Yeah.
00:27:13:22 - 00:27:45:00
Cullen
So no, I think that yeah, I think that that's definitely a that's totally a really neat way to and I think that that in line with that there's there's a direct kind of reference to that as well which is just about the dream about drowning and not having time. And it's not that you know, they don't really say it explicitly, but it's not that he doesn't have time to go off and, you know, love the fruits of his labor and sitting on a beach in New Zealand and, you know, relaxing for the rest of his life, it's very clearly an allusion to love and relationships and family.
00:27:45:11 - 00:28:09:20
Cullen
And because much like the next thing Pacino says is that, well, he's he's he's also failing at that. He's on the downward slope of a you know, his third third marriage. Yeah yeah. And it keeps also coming to the point that that you know, it is totally a distraction that that it is the the daughter Natalie Portman's character attempting suicide that that nearly causes him to let.
00:28:10:01 - 00:28:20:14
Cullen
Yeah. De Niro escape totally. Um and so I think that there's yeah I think that that's a really neat way to look at the film and it definitely definitely I don't think is is unintentional.
00:28:20:18 - 00:28:25:19
Clark
No I don't no, no no I don't think it is. I mean there's because it's way too strong of a film. Michael Mann is way too.
00:28:26:13 - 00:28:27:05
Cullen
Specific.
00:28:27:05 - 00:28:47:10
Clark
Of it. He's much too good a filmmaker. That's not an accident. But we each pick out, you know, we each kind of emphasize different aspects of a good film. When the themes are reached in the filmmaking is nuanced. There's enough room there that we can focus on because obsession is a part of that, right? You're not. You're just as valid as me because obsession is part of that.
00:28:47:10 - 00:29:12:04
Clark
Obsession is obsession with whatever whatever ambition you have. We have to make decisions. Like obsession is part of that. That obsession is a part of ambition, right. And a pursuit of your ambition. So this is one of the best films to me that illustrates in a mature way that decision that we all have to make at at least some point and probably.
00:29:12:16 - 00:29:14:16
Cullen
And the melancholic consequences too.
00:29:14:16 - 00:29:15:00
Clark
Yeah.
00:29:15:09 - 00:29:21:06
Cullen
That this movie, every single moment, the tone is so melancholic because it's this, it's, it's the feeling of.
00:29:21:06 - 00:29:22:18
Clark
It's a profound exercise. You know, I.
00:29:22:18 - 00:29:38:06
Cullen
Think I think that the like if I had to I don't think this is very vulgar, but if I had to kind of describe the feeling of this film. Yeah, it's, it's like after like an unfulfilling, you know, one night stand or something like that. Yeah, right. Like, like it's this feeling.
00:29:38:06 - 00:29:38:23
Clark
Of just way.
00:29:39:19 - 00:29:49:09
Cullen
Just like this, this kind of, like, emptiness. You feel this melancholic thing of, like, longing for something, you know, perhaps the one night stands or the robberies in the context of the film, but. Well, that.
00:29:49:09 - 00:29:52:04
Clark
You can never be fulfilled with the superficial or that.
00:29:52:04 - 00:30:15:19
Cullen
Yeah, there's this dissatisfaction. Yeah, I think that related to that. One thing I do want to briefly talk about too, is what is lacking from the films. This is inspired. Oh, and so so I think that um, you know, a film that very, very clearly and Nolan has said to himself that that, that he'd inspired is The Dark Knight.
00:30:15:19 - 00:30:16:15
Clark
Yeah. Yes.
00:30:17:03 - 00:30:20:16
Cullen
You know, The Dark Knight is, is kind of wears heat on its shoulder.
00:30:20:22 - 00:30:32:19
Clark
It's not especially when you say it like it might not you know, when you watch The Dark Knight, it might not be something that, you know, you necessarily immediately connect. But the instant you say that to somebody, if they've seen both films, you're like, Ah.
00:30:33:04 - 00:30:39:15
Cullen
Yeah. And I mean, even the the Van Zandt in In the Heat is the same at the.
00:30:39:15 - 00:30:41:05
Clark
Bank in the beginning. Right?
00:30:41:15 - 00:30:52:12
Cullen
So I, I know this is somewhat controversial to say I'm not a huge Dark Knight fan. So I, I think that, you know I don't I don't dislike it, but.
00:30:52:12 - 00:31:09:21
Clark
I have a happy memory of that. I have a happy memory of just for one reason. I'm not a big fan of this film from from like a like a purely cinematic reason. But I do have a big soft spot because this was one of the first dates that I think I ever went with my current wife at.
00:31:09:21 - 00:31:29:17
Clark
Oh, there you go. And I remember we we went to see it and we filled up like a little plastic water bottle with Southern with Southern Comfort and like, sipped on it in the movie theater together. And so it was like one of our first dates that we kind of got a little tipsy, you know? And so I have I have warm feelings of this film for that reason.
00:31:29:17 - 00:31:50:18
Cullen
And I mean, I had I used to I loved the movie when it came out. I was I was a big, dark Knight fan. But I think as I as I rewatched it over the years, the editing is for sharing it with Heat. It. I think that that's the thing is that he it it it is on the surface level trying to do kind of what he does of this like crime saga about a city of course.
00:31:50:18 - 00:32:10:08
Cullen
And the Dark Knight is a fictional city, but establishing this like tonal crime saga. But it's missing all of that that deeper context that makes the that that enriches the character that just you know, of course, there's like elements of romance in the dark night of him and Rachel and then Rachel's killed. Spoilers for a 14 year old.
00:32:10:11 - 00:32:18:20
Cullen
Yeah, but but but what I think it's lacking is that then that tone and that theme permeating like every single.
00:32:18:22 - 00:32:19:18
Clark
Yeah yeah.
00:32:20:08 - 00:32:37:08
Cullen
And I think also on a superficial level that that you look at the comparison between, you know, the bank scene, the bank robbery scene at the beginning of the dark night, it's like probably the most famous scene in the movie. I have a lot of issues with it because you watch it and you go, Why are these people talking the whole time?
00:32:37:12 - 00:32:56:21
Cullen
I think they're like going back and forth about like, Well, why did he wear the makeup? Why did they go on the Joker? You know? Oh, well, I was hired from this guy. There's so much exposition and it's like it's like exposition, exposition exhibition. Whereas you compare that to, you know, either of the big robbery set pieces. The first one I would more aptly compare it to, even though they're both set, the second one set in the bank.
00:32:56:21 - 00:33:05:13
Cullen
But, you know, it opens the movie on this big robbery. Yeah, they are completely silent. In fact, the one character they start trying to have a conversation is told promptly to shut up.
00:33:05:13 - 00:33:05:20
Clark
Yeah.
00:33:06:20 - 00:33:12:19
Cullen
And so I think that it's just one of those things where it's like it and I don't think that Christopher Nolan is an untalented filmmaker.
00:33:12:19 - 00:33:13:21
Clark
By any means. Sure.
00:33:14:04 - 00:33:42:17
Cullen
You know, he's he's Dunkirk was great. Something going for him considering his box office poll and what he's able to do but I think it kind of shows the difference between someone who can, you know, make a really entertaining big blockbuster versus somebody who can like elevate Blockbuster to to what I think is like, you know, a nearing a level of like arthouse, almost like nearing a level of like you're exploring this aspect of like human condition and humor.
00:33:42:19 - 00:33:46:04
Clark
We say it that that that that approach is art.
00:33:46:17 - 00:34:09:01
Cullen
Yes. There you go. Yeah. And so this that's what I think is so interesting. And I think that that I'm not saying this necessarily to knock on The Dark Knight, to take that down, but rather to highlight how good of a director man is in that way and how good of a writer man is. Um, I think that he is just so fantastic, especially he's just on his A-game and you know, the performances too.
00:34:09:01 - 00:34:11:03
Cullen
Um, I guess we can get into that a little bit, too.
00:34:11:03 - 00:34:20:23
Clark
Well, can I say one last thing I want to say one last thing, because I think, you know, we talked about some themes and collateral, I think came out in Collateral come out just a couple of years after this.
00:34:21:22 - 00:34:24:02
Cullen
Collateral was 2005.
00:34:24:03 - 00:34:25:09
Clark
Oh, wow. So a decade.
00:34:25:12 - 00:34:29:00
Cullen
Ten years. Okay. Let me let me actually make collateral was 2004.
00:34:29:04 - 00:34:41:12
Clark
Okay. So so quite quite a bit afterwards because I think, yeah, he had like Ali and like Muhammad Ali with Will Smith and Mate and Miami Vice. Oh, that's right. He had Miami Vice with Colin and Jamie Foxx's right.
00:34:41:12 - 00:34:42:07
Cullen
And The Insider.
00:34:42:07 - 00:35:16:11
Clark
And Oh, ooh, and the Insider. Just not to get too far. I'm going to digress all kinds of places, but The insider is fantastic. I think it's at least on par with this film. It is a really tremendous film if you haven't seen it. But I would just one of the thing that I want to because we talked about personal experience and I forgot to mention this and it's also such a recurring theme from For Man and his films and some of them, the way he shoots L.A. How much Los Angeles is a character in this film and how beautiful Los Angeles at night in this film.
00:35:18:02 - 00:35:30:23
Clark
And he does such a good job shooting L.A. and Collateral as well. And of course, in that film he shoots he was it get maybe we can get to some of this. But he is a pioneer on digital. He shot a lot of the night stuff on the Viper.
00:35:31:17 - 00:35:33:03
Cullen
Really early, the digital, really.
00:35:33:03 - 00:35:55:22
Clark
Early digital camera to get that really high night light sensitivity. But that actually is something that really stands out to me. I think heat is kind of one of those films and Pulp Fiction is actually falls in line with this, too. So there's a reason why these are kind of important to me when I was younger. They're part of this mythology izing of Los Angeles.
00:35:55:22 - 00:36:09:05
Clark
To me, I think it's shot so beautifully and it's not that every place they shoot is like technically pretty. Like they shoot in some pretty nasty rundown areas, right? Yeah, in L.A..
00:36:09:22 - 00:36:14:01
Cullen
But in fact, very little of this movie is in like a, you know, scenic part of the.
00:36:14:01 - 00:36:27:22
Clark
Quote unquote, scenic part of L.A. But I don't know, it's just like I like You would talk about the vibe, right? The vibe. It's it's everything together with Los Angeles so prominent, it's just like, whoa, that place is mythic, you know?
00:36:28:06 - 00:36:45:20
Cullen
And sometimes I think that's the thing about shooting cities that I think, you know, not only specifically to L.A., but just Michael Mann understands, is that oftentimes the best way to get a vibe of the city or to get a feel for a city is not necessarily to go to, like the most scenic and beautiful or most touristy spots, but it.
00:36:45:20 - 00:36:46:08
Clark
Is to just.
00:36:46:11 - 00:36:58:01
Cullen
You know, I whenever I'm around the world in anywhere, you know, I was in Venice and I specifically avoided all big tourist like the California once, Venice, Italy.
00:36:58:01 - 00:37:00:23
Clark
Okay, sorry. Because we were talking about L.A. so I just, you know. Yeah.
00:37:01:12 - 00:37:06:07
Cullen
But it, but like, you know, I will go to the, like, most local kind of, you know.
00:37:06:09 - 00:37:06:17
Clark
Yeah.
00:37:07:06 - 00:37:26:02
Cullen
Not touristy places. It's the same thing with, with Toronto. Like, I think that, you know, whenever I'm recommending on people things to do in Toronto, the people that are coming here, you know, I try to sort of say like just walk like it's a very walkable city, but just, you know, walk around. Don't you don't have to necessarily go to all of the the most famous sightseeing to do lists.
00:37:26:02 - 00:37:43:11
Cullen
And it can be really nice, too. And I think my man really understands that is that like the feel of a city isn't necessarily about it's icons but rather like, you know what is it like to just walk down a street at night in this place or drive down a highway? Um, he's got that really good, kind of.
00:37:43:11 - 00:37:51:09
Cullen
And especially with just the way that the and we'll get into this later on but Elliott Gould those score goes along so good So.
00:37:51:13 - 00:37:51:23
Clark
It's sort.
00:37:52:09 - 00:38:06:10
Cullen
Of like you know there's those that that one my favorite moment of the score of this movie it's so subtle is when they're driving the van to the the place that they're going to drill through the door. Okay. Their second heist. Yeah.
00:38:06:10 - 00:38:07:12
Clark
The one they abandon.
00:38:07:20 - 00:38:35:18
Cullen
Yes. Yeah. And it's just kind of this like eerie like a long storyboard. Yeah. And it and it just and it's just like probably 22nd shot of this van driving down the road and it's on it. The shots from a helicopter following it. And I think that it's it's so, you know, it just it makes you feel like you're there much more than I think, showing, you know, Griffith Park or the Hollywood sign.
00:38:35:18 - 00:38:38:04
Clark
Or Yeah yeah all that clichéd stuff.
00:38:38:18 - 00:38:40:06
Cullen
Bank of America building or something. Yeah.
00:38:40:06 - 00:38:56:08
Clark
But man is so good at that, you know, And I even had to look up because he shoots L.A. with so much love. And I love like a like a local because his he doesn't shoot all those tourist spots. And I had to double check. I was like where's man from. He's actually born and raised in or at least born in Chicago.
00:38:56:16 - 00:39:24:07
Clark
But I think about the way he shoots Miami in in Miami Vice the way he shoots L.A. in this film and Heat and in Collateral. Yeah. There's just like, you know, and, you know, we talk about I think we've mentioned this a few times now, but going all the way back to our roots with Herzog. And, you know, Herzog is so good at shooting landscapes that are representative of some kind of aspect of the human condition.
00:39:24:19 - 00:39:28:15
Clark
That and Herzog doesn't do that in urban environments very often.
00:39:28:19 - 00:39:29:20
Cullen
Very frequently in.
00:39:29:20 - 00:39:54:19
Clark
Very free, almost always it's natural landscapes is kind of what he's using. But I feel like that man is almost like that way to cities, that they really become an integral part. And he kind of takes and highlights the pieces of the city that he wants to take in highlight to kind of, you know, fit into this vibe that he's really going for in whatever particular film he's shooting.
00:39:54:19 - 00:40:04:21
Clark
Obviously, like, you know, the vibe he gets from Miami and Miami Vice is radically different than L.A. here, and he but I just think that it's exceptional. But that I.
00:40:04:21 - 00:40:10:01
Cullen
Think I think another it's just to kind of, I guess, harp on Herzog for a second.
00:40:10:01 - 00:40:11:01
Clark
Yeah yeah he's.
00:40:11:03 - 00:40:25:13
Cullen
That it's not I wouldn't really describe it as as like realistic No it's just more like it's like goes back to the kind of truth versus fact kind of thing where it's like it's the truth about L.A., not the factual.
00:40:25:19 - 00:40:26:04
Clark
Right.
00:40:26:04 - 00:40:27:23
Cullen
Day to day. Yeah. Street life of.
00:40:27:23 - 00:40:29:08
Clark
L.A. It's the emotional.
00:40:29:16 - 00:40:32:03
Cullen
It's the emotional truth and the authentic like.
00:40:32:04 - 00:40:32:12
Clark
Yeah.
00:40:32:14 - 00:40:38:04
Cullen
Feeling so much more than it is. You know, again, you're not you're not just otherwise it would just be them sitting in traffic.
00:40:38:04 - 00:40:50:00
Clark
All day and remind me because I want to go back. You know, you're making this comparison to The Dark Knight, which I think is an interesting comparison. I want to take it just a step. Do you remember where did they shoot? What Where was the city footage shot for the.
00:40:50:03 - 00:40:52:02
Cullen
Dash Chicago primary?
00:40:52:02 - 00:41:00:00
Clark
It was it shot in Chicago. And obviously they're trying to represent a fake place, Gotham. But Gotham's kind of New York. Sort of isn't.
00:41:00:01 - 00:41:00:12
Cullen
Yeah, it's.
00:41:00:23 - 00:41:01:19
Clark
Of Manhattan.
00:41:01:19 - 00:41:03:23
Cullen
Northeast, big northeast.
00:41:03:23 - 00:41:11:02
Clark
Like, because I don't know much about comic book stuff, but Gotham is really kind of just New York City, right, isn't it?
00:41:11:11 - 00:41:25:08
Cullen
It's I think I don't know much about comic books either, but I my understanding is that New Gotham is supposed to be New York City at night and Metropolis, where Superman is in New York City during the day. Oh, I forgot. There's Metropolis. Them in a different city.
00:41:25:08 - 00:41:28:03
Clark
Are those two different comic book worlds, though, right? Like, Well, no, no.
00:41:28:04 - 00:41:30:09
Cullen
That's in Batman. Are they exist in the city.
00:41:30:09 - 00:41:32:14
Clark
Oh, they're in the same universe. Okay. All right.
00:41:33:00 - 00:41:36:19
Cullen
So I think that that's it. It's supposed to be like Gotham is New York at night and.
00:41:36:19 - 00:41:37:11
Clark
Like, parallel.
00:41:37:12 - 00:41:38:21
Cullen
Metropolis is. But it is.
00:41:39:05 - 00:41:57:20
Clark
But again, but I guess that's less important. But what I was going to try to say is that at least my recollection, I mean, it's like you look at how differently those cities are shot. And I just, you know, I don't know. I just don't get, you know, the same kind of like feeling from how those cityscapes are shot in that.
00:41:57:20 - 00:42:21:08
Clark
And The Dark Knight doesn't have the same story impact to me as how Los Angeles has shot in, he and I and an example and it's kind of interesting, too, is this story kind of encases a little piece of trivia to probably most people know, but there's that really beautiful scene where where oh, gosh darn it. I've got to like, I'm having a hard time with the characters.
00:42:21:08 - 00:42:22:17
Clark
It's Neal, right? Is it.
00:42:23:09 - 00:42:23:14
Cullen
Is.
00:42:24:06 - 00:42:32:19
Clark
In your or Neal's like, you know, the relationship blooming with Edie and they're out overlooking Los Angeles and.
00:42:32:21 - 00:42:35:11
Cullen
Yeah, I think it's shot on a I think it's shot on a green screen.
00:42:35:11 - 00:42:49:01
Clark
So that was shot on a green screen. But of course, all of the footage of Los Angeles is real. I mean, they really shot it and then they created a plate and then, you know, and then they put them green screen. And this, of course, is part of like the the issues with light sensitivity and dynamic range of a film camera.
00:42:49:01 - 00:42:52:09
Clark
Yeah. You know. Yeah. So that's why he did that. It's just a.
00:42:52:09 - 00:42:53:06
Cullen
Text. It looks good.
00:42:53:06 - 00:43:11:06
Clark
Still looks good actually. I mean, yeah, it still looks really good, but I just feel like the way Los Angeles is used as a character in this film, it's just, you know, that's another difference, I think, between the storytelling of Michael Mann in Heat versus Dark Knight, which is.
00:43:11:06 - 00:43:15:18
Cullen
Weird. I kind of I also wanted to add, because I think I know we're sort of going on a little bit of a tangent.
00:43:15:18 - 00:43:16:14
Clark
Just going everywhere.
00:43:17:03 - 00:43:37:07
Cullen
For some reason. Yeah. But that it also to me points again to to perhaps the shortcomings more of The Dark Knight than it does of, of like fictional film or because you think about Burton's Batman's Gotham is totally a character in those there's there's oh very.
00:43:37:09 - 00:43:38:03
Clark
Stylish.
00:43:38:03 - 00:43:42:20
Cullen
Characterization of Gotham and even in the new Batman film that just came out.
00:43:43:00 - 00:43:44:01
Clark
Which I haven't seen that.
00:43:44:08 - 00:43:49:21
Cullen
Which I actually I actually enjoy, I would say that I really, really like the first two thirds in the last third I was okay with.
00:43:50:00 - 00:43:51:06
Clark
Yeah, I'll have to watch.
00:43:51:06 - 00:43:52:05
Cullen
Maybe we'll do an episode on.
00:43:52:09 - 00:43:56:02
Clark
I think it's free to watch on like it's streaming.
00:43:56:02 - 00:44:13:22
Cullen
So I think Yeah, yeah. But, but even even that it really I think one of the really smart things that Matt Reeves did who's the director is he it because it's a new Batman world is new Batman and all that you got to establish one stuff is that he spends like the first like 15 minutes building up the most.
00:44:13:22 - 00:44:36:10
Cullen
I want to say that the most gothic of of like Gotham City ever And again, I'm not a big superhero guy. I don't really I'm not really into comic books and things like that. And but I really appreciated the the like the craftsmanship that went into establishing what this city feels like. And it gives it so much character and it really kind of it does it sort of, you know, much like Michael lang makes makes L.A.
00:44:36:14 - 00:44:58:19
Cullen
A character, it makes Gotham a character in that which is important. Yeah. Which is it's odd that that you don't really feel I don't feel it either in The Dark Knight Now, considering how influenced it is by Heat and how open Nolan is about that influence, because no one has done many interviews where he specifically cited Heat as, as like the big like he wanted to do heat in Gotham City, essentially.
00:44:58:19 - 00:45:14:11
Cullen
Yeah. So I think it's I think it's interesting. And again, no knocking on you know, I'm not from Nolan, but I think that perhaps that just shows that maybe maybe his strong suit suite is in more the like the high dimensional sci fi stuff than it is in this kind of particular style.
00:45:14:16 - 00:45:31:14
Clark
Right. Well, you know, and boy, we could go I mean, there's so much we could say about this film, but I want to make sure that not to not to say that we can't do any more of these fun comic book movie comparisons. But I do want to talk about something that I feel like is so integral to this film and its success.
00:45:31:19 - 00:46:01:05
Clark
And that's the performances. Yes. Yeah. Because holy crap, right? I mean, you know, like I was saying before, I remember such a huge part of the marketing campaign for this film was, you know, De Niro, Pacino, together, da da, da, you know, And we've got so many wonderful actors and so many fantastic performances in this. And it's it's just you had actually shown me, so I hadn't seen it until just before our recording here.
00:46:01:12 - 00:46:23:18
Clark
You showed me like a little snippet of so to give some background. So Michael Mann been working on this project for a long time. He actually wrote the first draft in 79 and he turned it, I think, into it was shot once in not in identical form, but it was shot once as a TV pilot. So this was potentially going to be television series that when it was.
00:46:23:18 - 00:46:26:07
Cullen
90 minutes, I think it was the TV pilot.
00:46:26:07 - 00:46:54:20
Clark
Yeah. And so I don't think I don't know how much of that survives. But you did point me to the diner scene. Well, of course, in Heat, it's De Niro and Pacino, and in the television pilot, it's two totally different actors, of course. And I'm like, wow, I mean, talk about it. Talk about mind blowing. I mean, especially if you're if you're a student of acting or directing and you want to see how much a scene can be changed.
00:46:55:20 - 00:46:57:02
Cullen
Is the dialog is identical.
00:46:57:02 - 00:46:58:06
Clark
By the performance.
00:46:58:14 - 00:47:00:01
Cullen
Yeah, it's everything is identical.
00:47:00:02 - 00:47:04:09
Clark
Talk about mind blowing. Talk about mind blowing.
00:47:05:07 - 00:47:13:06
Cullen
You take you take what is a not great scene in the TV show to one of the iconic scenes of the movie.
00:47:13:06 - 00:47:13:15
Clark
Yeah.
00:47:14:00 - 00:47:16:18
Cullen
Because one of the iconic scenes of a very iconic.
00:47:16:18 - 00:47:22:20
Clark
Well and what it highlights what it highlights to me is how absolutely vital subtext is.
00:47:23:03 - 00:47:23:14
Cullen
Yes.
00:47:23:20 - 00:47:40:01
Clark
Yeah. This is a really wonderful example about how an actor brings in can can bring in. So much subtext, so much gravitas, so much story in between. Every word. In between every line.
00:47:40:12 - 00:48:00:00
Cullen
Yeah. Because the simple like look yeah you can, you can just, you know, I think that De Niro and Pacino in that moment say more with their eyes and their body language than than they have in the TV show. But I think the other thing, too, is that you can, by the way, get it. I think I think it is readily available on DVD or something.
00:48:00:00 - 00:48:02:12
Cullen
Oh, is it release it as a TV movie.
00:48:02:13 - 00:48:05:03
Clark
As a TV movie. Okay. So there you go. Yeah, you could.
00:48:05:06 - 00:48:28:11
Cullen
But I think that it also it showed like you can see, you know, how important cinematographer Fee is, You know, the shoot, the scene, the TV show scene is shot very flat. It's it's just kind of like to, you know, small budget which is a little similar to what it is in heat. But I, I think what I kind of want to stress is that it's not even the amount of money in the heat scene that makes it look good.
00:48:28:11 - 00:48:47:21
Cullen
It's just the artistry. You know, you could you could very easily, except for the fact that heat is shot on anamorphic and, you know, the TV shows, spherical and anamorphic, is typically more expensive. You could make those look very similar on similar budgets, not including the actors fees. I think.
00:48:48:00 - 00:48:49:11
Clark
That aspect ratio.
00:48:49:13 - 00:49:21:15
Cullen
Is expensive aspect, but that's what I mean. Is that like that if you were to just, you know as I think the pilot was shot in like 19 days, so they didn't have a lot of time versus the film was shot over 107. Yeah. But it just kind of goes to show you how how like, you know and I know we're we're talking about performances but beyond just the performances that that putting a little bit of of of thought and work and you know just that extra thing like these little tiny changes that you make can can change a scene so fundamentally.
00:49:22:04 - 00:49:34:04
Cullen
But I do you know, I think that De Niro is is like so incredible in this movie. De Niro's just Pacino is off the rails and it's really, really fun.
00:49:34:04 - 00:49:56:21
Clark
Like you talking about the segments. I want to talk to you about that for a second because I think, you know, I so this is definitely dear I mean, like Pacino has always been, you know, an interesting actor. I love him. I love him. By the way, subtle is not often a word that you would use to describe Pacino's acting from like, you know, 85 on, right?
00:49:56:22 - 00:50:04:10
Cullen
Yes. Yeah. Which is weird because prior to that, like The Godfather, he isn't the first godfather. He's pretty sanely, low key, insanely subtle.
00:50:04:12 - 00:50:27:05
Clark
But in this film, I forgot how many great, like one liners that Pacino has where he just, like, explodes into, like, you know, like caricature land. But somehow it works. Like, somehow now, I mean, I do have to admit, like, there's a few times I kind of snickered, you know, it kind of took me a little bit out of the film.
00:50:27:05 - 00:50:31:00
Clark
And I kinda, you know, in my own mind, I'm like, Oh, what a.
00:50:31:00 - 00:50:31:11
Cullen
Great.
00:50:33:05 - 00:50:54:19
Clark
Like, I'm just like, oh my gosh, oh, my gosh. But it's hey, but you can't deny it's it's entertaining. It's funny, it's definitely colorful and, you know? I mean, I guess you could definitely defend it. You know, in most of these instances. I mean, he at least he's consistent. It's it's it's.
00:50:54:19 - 00:51:03:20
Cullen
Fairly I think. Yeah, I think I honestly think it works. It works. It's it's I think if it was anybody else to do that. No, would not.
00:51:03:21 - 00:51:04:09
Clark
It would not.
00:51:04:09 - 00:51:20:08
Cullen
I think the fact that it's Pacino and and he you know of course which you know is you know just the master easy to Yeah you know he does the the La Adler Ali Strasberg and who I think he he runs that school now or.
00:51:20:11 - 00:51:21:00
Clark
Oh I don't know the.
00:51:21:00 - 00:51:22:01
Cullen
Vice chair or something.
00:51:22:01 - 00:51:22:12
Clark
I can't.
00:51:22:12 - 00:51:35:10
Cullen
Yeah but very famous acting school in New York but um, and I just think it's, I think I always think it's, you know, I would rather that than someone just doing nothing with a character and just reading what are the other.
00:51:35:10 - 00:51:58:13
Clark
Reasons I think it works is because so imagine imagine if you if Pacino played it as straight and subtle as De Niro. Oh, now you've got. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like you have to have a contrast. I feel like, honestly, if Pacino wouldn't have done this, if he would have played it so low key and kind of so focused and straight, I feel like there wouldn't be enough contrast between the two characters.
00:51:58:13 - 00:52:15:14
Clark
There wouldn't be any any color between them. So, you know, but it is kind of funky. I do. So that interesting piece of trivia I do remember reading, I can't it's relatively recent that Pacino was being interviewed and gosh, I don't know if it was for print or if it was, you know, in person and then written down.
00:52:15:14 - 01:16:31:08
Clark
I'd have to go back and look. But I.