Clark
Hey, everybody. Welcome once again to the Soldiers of Cinema podcast. I am Clark Coffey. And with me, as always, is my fantastic co-host, Cullen McFater. What's up, Cullen?
00:00:25:00 - 00:00:34:09
Cullen
Not much. I'm happy to be back. It's been a while. I don't think it will show quite how much time it has been, because, of course, we've been releasing period right? The summer.
00:00:34:09 - 00:00:37:01
Clark
But yeah, we've been gone for a living in.
00:00:37:06 - 00:00:38:17
Cullen
Almost, I think, over four months.
00:00:39:12 - 00:01:18:09
Clark
And so and so that that's why we're so rusty, everybody. So if you could just you could tell, you could tell we're rusty. I probably introduce the podcast in a totally different way than I used to, although, hey, that's nothing wrong with that variety spice of life. But yeah, this is episode 56, and although it's come just a couple of weeks after we've released episode 55, for us, it's been like Collins said, about four months since we've recorded an episode, so I'm super psyched to be back in the chair here with the microphone in front of my face with you virtually in front of me to discuss your pick this time around, which is 1970
00:01:18:09 - 00:01:39:18
Clark
Twos Fat City directed by John Houston. So this is a film I'd never seen, so that's always like an extra special fun thing for me. Obviously, like being introduced to films I hadn't seen. Now I'm surprised I hadn't seen it. Honestly, I'm really surprised that I hadn't seen this film yet, but I had not. There are, believe it or not, films out there that I have not yet seen.
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Clark
I know it's crazy, but how about let's jump in and talk about kind of what propelled, you know, why did you choose this film and kind of just we'll go from there?
00:01:51:03 - 00:01:56:18
Cullen
Well, I think it's it's I think this is actually the first movie we've done that neither of us had seen.
00:01:57:15 - 00:01:58:22
Clark
Wait, no, you hadn't seen.
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Cullen
I hadn't seen this either, so.
00:02:00:10 - 00:02:00:20
Clark
Okay.
00:02:00:20 - 00:02:14:23
Cullen
Okay. The reason that I chose it was I actually I mean, I was kind of curious to see how we would talk about something, both of us having seen it for the first time. Because, again, I think this is the first one that neither other than our Herzog days.
00:02:15:12 - 00:02:16:06
Clark
Right, right, right.
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Cullen
You know, I don't think either way.
00:02:17:16 - 00:02:19:00
Clark
Back then, way back in the day.
00:02:19:00 - 00:02:35:04
Cullen
When we had family reunions and things like that. Yeah. But I was I was just really, you know, I as I've talked about, I think we spoke pretty much at length about Connie Hall, our Butch Cassidy episode.
00:02:35:05 - 00:02:35:16
Clark
And yeah.
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Cullen
I'm sure that I mentioned that he's my favorite cinematographer and definitely the one that is the most like has inspired me the most through through my career. Yeah. Yeah. Before that as well. And so I was listening the other day, a few weeks ago to him talking about, you know, there's like all these really long form two and a half hour interviews with Connie Hall online that are really, really fascinating to listen to some that he talks just about his life and growing up and some talk some more about his work.
00:03:06:20 - 00:03:26:17
Cullen
And he mentioned doing Fat City. And, you know, I really like John Huston. I love Connie Hall. You know, my like Jeff Bridges. And so I also was kind of surprised that I'd never seen this. And not only that, I sort of somewhat have like not a personal connection in the sense that someone I know worked on this or that.
00:03:27:11 - 00:03:39:08
Cullen
But my my dad's dad, my grandfather, he was a pretty like, well-to-do boxer here in Canada. He was the Canadian boxing champion back in the Wow fifties. So.
00:03:39:23 - 00:03:44:01
Clark
Now, did you ever did you get did you know your grandfather personally like the.
00:03:44:09 - 00:03:49:14
Cullen
Yeah, he actually just passed away in 2011. So. So I knew him quite well.
00:03:50:03 - 00:03:54:00
Clark
And did he ever regale you with with boxing stories?
00:03:54:00 - 00:04:13:09
Cullen
Oh, yes. Yeah, a lot of them. And so, you know, just the funny thing and we'll get into this more in, you know, in the plot of the film, but the funny thing, too, is that there's there's moments in this movie that made me really laugh because, you know, for example, when you know, someone comes out of a fight and they're like, did I win?
00:04:13:18 - 00:04:20:03
Cullen
And, you know, he used to tell me these stories about that. He would wake up the next morning and have to ask his manager, like, you know, who won?
00:04:20:14 - 00:04:21:11
Clark
Oh, my gosh.
00:04:21:11 - 00:04:32:01
Cullen
Your head is so. And I think it's also, you know, perhaps on a more more serious note, too, that it really showed like the what the devastation it does to your body.
00:04:32:06 - 00:04:32:15
Clark
Yeah.
00:04:33:00 - 00:04:41:05
Cullen
You know, by the end of his life and my grandfather's life, he had a lot of memory issues and was, you know, pretty far to dementia, like concussions.
00:04:41:05 - 00:04:41:17
Clark
Syndrome.
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Cullen
Or. Yeah. And you can really see in this, I think that it really kind of takes the like it's not like it's nothing like.
00:04:50:00 - 00:04:52:15
Clark
It's not glamorous this is where it not. Yeah.
00:04:52:16 - 00:05:00:10
Cullen
Yeah. A coming of age not coming of age, but like an underdog story about this guy who's really great boxer and he goes out and wins, like in this.
00:05:00:10 - 00:05:01:09
Clark
This is not rocky.
00:05:01:10 - 00:05:27:23
Cullen
Yeah, you're. You're kind of just watching your main characters. Like, if they're not losing, they're nearly losing. Yeah. No grand victory in this where everyone runs on to the ring and cheers at the end and he kisses the girl like. Yeah. And that also said that there's not really one main character here. I mean you've got Stacy Keach who plays the lead in in a way, you're right, Billy Tully.
00:05:28:23 - 00:05:34:21
Cullen
But you've also got kind of, you know, the movie kind of splits itself between him as Yeah, for.
00:05:34:21 - 00:05:52:12
Clark
Example, I would definitely call this an ensemble film for sure. Well, I want to. Let's go back to so your first time watching it, you know, and like we usually like to do here on these episodes, kind of start off with our kind of, you know, personal reaction to our our viewing of the film, especially if it's if it's the first time.
00:05:52:19 - 00:06:02:06
Clark
So kind of what was, you know, being a fan of Connie. Liking Houston, knowing Bridges, of course. And this is like one of his first Maybe it's your second.
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Cullen
Major.
00:06:02:20 - 00:06:19:17
Clark
Movie. Yeah, major film role. He's so young. It almost like blue. Like I'm so used to seeing him. You know, so much older. And I'm a fan of his work, too. But he's been around for, I mean, my entire life since, like, before my life. And and he's been making so many films and been in so many things.
00:06:19:17 - 00:06:24:12
Clark
I was almost like taken aback when I saw it. I was like, wait, is this like Tron when they like CGI?
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Cullen
It did, Yeah.
00:06:25:19 - 00:06:35:13
Clark
It's like, Oh, he looks like, Yeah, exactly. And that. And then I looked at up and he's only like 20, 21 years old here. But yeah. Tell me about so what, what was your experience watching the film then?
00:06:36:08 - 00:06:57:02
Cullen
No, I loved it. I mean, this is this is one of those movies that really I mean, we've said this so many times, and it's no surprise. It's not like we're going to pick movies that we don't like, but we should. I think it's also to be fair, though, it's rare to see and not rare. I would I shouldn't say it's rare, but it's it's always nice to see a new movie that and I don't mean new as in contemporary but yeah but you never seen before.
00:06:57:07 - 00:07:04:06
Cullen
Yeah. And and really connect to it and relate to it. And not only that, but just, you know that it's like a damn good movie.
00:07:04:13 - 00:07:04:20
Clark
Yeah.
00:07:04:20 - 00:07:11:10
Cullen
Yeah. And, you know, so I just like, I like how pragmatic John Huston is with his direction.
00:07:11:20 - 00:07:14:13
Clark
Yeah. You know, it's almost like, matter of fact.
00:07:14:13 - 00:07:29:23
Cullen
Like, Yeah. And it's like, if he's, if he needs to show something, he shows like, you know, someone's talking, he cuts to them. If there's an action, he cuts to it. Right. And it, there's, there's no flair on any of his stuff. And I think that that works really well with Connie Hall. Again, we'll get into the details of that later.
00:07:29:23 - 00:07:52:19
Cullen
But no, I think that just the the the overall feel of the movie, how it's just kind of this you know, it's not depressing. It's not like dower. It's just very almost in a similar way to The Deer Hunter, where we talked about how it's like you're introduced to this Pennsylvania mining town and it's like drab and cold.
00:07:52:19 - 00:08:10:07
Cullen
But there's almost this strange, like Renaissance romanticization that's not done by the film. But perhaps just looking back on these times, you know, it's, it's, it's, it takes place this film in like this kind of Skid Row rough area of Stockton, California, which as you said, is, you know.
00:08:11:00 - 00:08:38:03
Clark
I've given since many, many, many times. And it is a perfect setting. Yeah, it is this type of setting for a place like this. And it's I. For those of you who may not know. So Stockton is it is just south of Sacramento, the capital of California, and it's just east of San Francisco Bay Area. It's inland and it's basically kind of an agricultural center.
00:08:38:03 - 00:08:44:09
Clark
And you see that in this film, of course, where they're basically like picking onions, like bagging onions off.
00:08:44:12 - 00:08:46:01
Cullen
Yeah, he's got a good farm job.
00:08:46:01 - 00:09:03:16
Clark
And you see that. And I literally I mean, you drive on the five and you go through that area like you'll see giant trucks filled with onions and like little skins, like, you know, flying off, you know, because they're in these, like open top trucks, you know, such a huge now it's even I mean, I don't know, but it it might be even more destitute.
00:09:03:16 - 00:09:41:13
Clark
Now they're in some ways because the drought here that's been happening for so long has really, really devastated the agricultural industry in inland in the valley area there. But but the thing that you'll you'll smell Stockton way before you see Stockton because it is it's the cattle industry is actually what's kind of taken over probably is their largest industry there and there are a handful of I'm talking gigantic like almost impossible to imagine unless you see it factory farms with cattle, which are actually heartbreaking, frankly.
00:09:42:00 - 00:09:44:12
Clark
But you can smell it from like ten miles.
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Cullen
Away, rows and rows of cows and tiny little cages, right?
00:09:47:11 - 00:09:53:15
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. Just like giant. Well, they're not in cages, thankfully, but. But they're these just huge open mud pits.
00:09:53:16 - 00:09:54:11
Cullen
Oh, okay.
00:09:54:16 - 00:10:11:16
Clark
With like, with, like, some shielding from, like, some roofs, some open roofs because it's I mean, it's like 110 degrees out there every day. I mean, it's a miserable place, you know? Anyway, anyway, not to digress too much, but my point is that, wow, is it a perfect place for a story like this to be told?
00:10:11:23 - 00:10:16:13
Cullen
Mm hmm. Yeah. And it's based on the book, which also is set in stone. Yeah. And it was shot there.
00:10:16:19 - 00:10:17:21
Clark
Yeah. So it's not.
00:10:17:21 - 00:10:32:06
Cullen
Faking it at all. Yeah, but, you know, like, that's that's exactly what I mean. Where it's not, you know, some films like this would go into this realm of being, like, dour and depressing, and every single scene would.
00:10:32:09 - 00:10:34:02
Clark
Be to really dwell in it. Yeah.
00:10:34:09 - 00:10:56:07
Cullen
Well, this movie is is much like Houston's direction. It's very matter of fact. You know, it's just about it's like it just kind of feels like a vignette of of like, you know, American life and where you just kind of see this story play out. And but it's it's also got this charm to it. You know, like the characters have these desires in Fat city.
00:10:58:00 - 00:11:03:14
Cullen
Well it comes from a term of that that means kind of like making it rich.
00:11:03:15 - 00:11:04:23
Clark
Making it big. Yeah. Like, right.
00:11:04:23 - 00:11:14:21
Cullen
Like and so the whole movie is about that, but it's not, it's not, you know, it's it's just done differently. It's hard to put a finger on it. And hopefully by the end of this episode as we talk.
00:11:15:07 - 00:11:16:00
Clark
It'll be a better.
00:11:16:00 - 00:11:16:22
Cullen
Way to put it than that.
00:11:16:22 - 00:11:36:02
Clark
But yeah, well I could, yeah, I mean, I'm on, I'm on track with you. I'm tracking. I get what you're saying. I think that it's, you know, it's kind of like, look, life involves a lot of suffering and a lot of struggle and, you know, part of what life is as we all get older and you come into adulthood, you have dreams.
00:11:36:02 - 00:11:56:10
Clark
And a lot of times those dreams aren't manifest. And, you know, there's a lot of look, the road of life is a bumpy road with a lot of turns. In short, you know, like dead ends. And, you know, it's tough. It can be tough. And so I think it's like it's kind of presenting a bit of the reality of that using boxing as a metaphor.
00:11:56:10 - 00:12:23:08
Clark
And of course, these, you know, characters in that world. But but it's presenting this kind of is like, well, this is what life is and it's not wallowing in it. It's not like, you know, I mean, there's some films that like really just over like melodramatic, right? Yeah. In in trying to present the suffering to you, they go so far as to get melodramatic, and then it's just kind of like you turn to at least I'm turned off by that kind of represents of suffering and struggle.
00:12:24:00 - 00:12:40:12
Clark
So I to I get what you're saying. I mean, my you know, this the first time I've seen the film, too, I just I watched it last night, actually. So I wanted to have it fresh. And I actually watched it again. I got a beautiful copy of the film on Blu ray. It was hard to find, though. I had to get it on eBay.
00:12:40:19 - 00:12:58:03
Clark
There was no place streaming it here, at least that I could see. I'm surprised it was actually such a hard film to find, but I got a beautiful Blu ray copy that had a commentary track. Sadly, not from Houston, as you would imagine. It would be unlikely that there would be one of these when I.
00:12:58:03 - 00:12:59:18
Cullen
Was a voice generator. Yeah.
00:12:59:18 - 00:13:18:16
Clark
Yeah, exactly. But there were some interviews of Houston and some other really wonderful features on it, but it was a really beautiful print, actually a really well done print, a lot of film grain. I think it seemed like it was really faithful to what Conrad had intended.
00:13:19:12 - 00:13:20:10
Cullen
It's really grainy.
00:13:20:10 - 00:13:21:17
Clark
I noticed. Yeah, Beautiful.
00:13:21:17 - 00:13:21:21
Cullen
In that.
00:13:21:21 - 00:13:42:06
Clark
Way. Yeah, it's really beautiful and very natural. It wasn't any nor, you know, like, not to get too technical, but just, you know, a lot of times on Blu rays or even 4K is they'll do a lot of like noise reduction and grain reduction. And it just gets weird. But this is really beautiful. But I mean, immediately one of the first things that that that I felt from the film was was the cinematography.
00:13:42:06 - 00:14:01:01
Clark
Of course, you've got this really beautiful opening sequence where I don't know how long it is before we hear, you know, a character speak, but maybe, what is it, like 5 minutes or something and we've just got you. And you noticed right off the bat this contrast between the dark of the interior, the all the interiors on this.
00:14:01:01 - 00:14:10:06
Clark
Almost all of them are shot so dark, you know, the bar and and the the Billy's apartment.
00:14:10:16 - 00:14:12:11
Cullen
And you get that kind of green tinge to them.
00:14:12:11 - 00:14:32:18
Clark
You know, and yeah, like really dark, you know, and, and then he comes outside and it's like this blinding, you know, like on, like almost hot side, you know, it's like a white sun, you know, it's like really. And so and there's kind of throughout the whole film, you have this it's there's a lot of it's very dark, very dark interiors.
00:14:32:20 - 00:14:44:10
Clark
Bars are really lowly lit. And then characters will come outside and it's almost just like, you know, it does such a good job of kind of representing that feeling, you know, if you get inside a building. I mean.
00:14:44:22 - 00:15:00:16
Cullen
And Connie Hall said that this is one of the things that he talks about and that that interview where he says that, you know, he wanted to basically recreate that feeling of, yeah, when you've been like if you've ever been day drinking in a bar all day, and then you come out and it's still bright.
00:15:00:16 - 00:15:01:21
Clark
Out and you're just like.
00:15:02:00 - 00:15:05:08
Cullen
Oh my God, it's so dark in there. And you just, you just feel like crap. You know?
00:15:05:20 - 00:15:08:03
Clark
The way I've experienced that with a movie theater.
00:15:08:03 - 00:15:30:15
Cullen
Yes, yes. Yeah, Yeah. But the way that he gets away with that is that he, he definitely it's quite ingenious where it's, where he just, he over exposes the exteriors and then brings it down through this like when, when the film is developed so that the when it's, when you're shooting outside the sky gets totally washed out and desaturated and basically becomes a pure white.
00:15:31:11 - 00:15:33:08
Clark
But then we just feel over that exposure.
00:15:33:08 - 00:15:40:22
Cullen
Yeah, you get you get kind of a regular exposure on the actors and the characters and, and but that's, you know, it works wonderfully.
00:15:40:22 - 00:16:16:17
Clark
Works wonderfully. So I noticed that like a medium, you know, that was one of the thing because that's kind of we have this montage that's kind of introducing Billy and kind of introducing Stockton as, as like a setting for this film. But as it just went, I mean, it yes, it's it's very beautifully photographed. You notice that immediately I was particularly I mean, I was really so just kind of initial impressions, you know, Stacie and Susan's scenes together especially, they have like a longer scene in a bar where he bangs his head on a jukebox are just exquisite.
00:16:17:00 - 00:16:17:15
Cullen
I just didn't.
00:16:17:15 - 00:16:33:18
Clark
Have the chemistry that they had. Was fantastic. Yeah, you can. I mean, I was just really impressed with the performances here. The authenticity of so many of these, like supporting characters, which I didn't find out until later. A lot of them were like real boxers or.
00:16:33:18 - 00:16:34:18
Cullen
Yeah, girls jokes.
00:16:35:01 - 00:16:58:09
Clark
Local people. They're it was a great scene where they're like, Billy's out picking these or, you know, cleaning off these from bagging up these onions. And he has a conversation with another man who's a worker who's out there talking about his wife. And it's like, wow, the authenticity, you know, of these characters. It's just Yeah. And Houston hired a lot of non-actors, frankly.
00:16:59:03 - 00:17:22:14
Clark
So that really stood out to me. And the other thing and I really like the film too, so I really enjoyed the film. I had a great time watching it. I was intrigued by the boxing choreography and how the boxing was shot. And I think because, you know, before having seen this, so even though these films were released after Fat City, I had seen these films before Fat City.
00:17:22:14 - 00:17:32:06
Clark
So films like Rocky and Raging Bull, you know, of course, there's I've seen a whole series of Rocky films, you know, as a kid before I ever saw this.
00:17:32:15 - 00:17:33:23
Cullen
But I was 20 of them.
00:17:34:06 - 00:17:48:13
Clark
Yeah, like 20 of them. Yeah, I think I've only seen, like, maybe five myself. I haven't seen the past, you know, ten that have been released. But, you know, I saw like through where he fought the Russian guy and, you know, and like, I will break you or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And, and yeah.
00:17:49:17 - 00:17:53:04
Cullen
The robot comes out.
00:17:53:04 - 00:18:16:04
Clark
But I, but I was particularly like surprised I don't know if surprised but, but the boxing choreography how that was shot I was, I was almost taken aback a bit at first by how different it felt. Yeah. Then how other boxing films approach that, at least how.
00:18:16:09 - 00:18:17:10
Cullen
Ugly it almost is.
00:18:17:13 - 00:18:18:07
Clark
Yeah.
00:18:18:07 - 00:18:24:15
Cullen
Like that. It's not. You know, every time you see a boxer. Oh, it's always very dance like which well can be true for real.
00:18:24:15 - 00:18:42:20
Clark
Fine. And, and it's not, you know, and it's like I and it's been a while since I've seen Rocky and it's been a while since I've seen Raging Bull. But, you know, it's almost like so obviously these are kind of these are not pro-level boxers. They're like amateur rated boxers. They're like lightweight. They're not heavyweight. They're in Stockton, they're in these tiny little places.
00:18:43:06 - 00:18:53:15
Clark
But it was almost like they didn't know what they were doing. Almost like it almost was like when they were in the ring, it was like, Have you ever seen kids like young, young, young kids play soccer?
00:18:53:21 - 00:18:54:18
Cullen
MM When they.
00:18:55:04 - 00:19:10:02
Clark
They just like, swarm the ball and it's just like you have this little swarm of kids just following the ball around. Nobody, like, plays position. I almost felt like the boxing was presented in that way where it was just like this flurry of just like punches, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop.
00:19:10:03 - 00:19:12:17
Cullen
And everyone almost seems like exhausted, you know, it's like this.
00:19:13:00 - 00:19:44:00
Clark
And there was no like, because, you know, at least in my imagination, when I like, rewind Rocky and like, play the fight scenes in my mind, you know, in a film like that, it's like every punch is like, emphasized, right? There's like this, you know, and, and, and it's, you know, to the to like the inthe little detail, every punch, every dodge, every uppercut, every jab is like so taken apart by the film and the editing and how it's shot in close ups.
00:19:44:00 - 00:19:57:09
Clark
And, you know, this was just kind of like for the most part, we've just got a wide shot of two guys, just like going edit it, you know, just like this little flurry of little punches, you know? Yeah. And you can hardly see, like, what's really happening.
00:19:57:14 - 00:20:08:11
Cullen
There's no, like, technique. Yeah, but like, kind of, you know, I kind of liked that because it's, it's to me it's not, you know, these, these boxing matches aren't taking place in big, you know, it's.
00:20:08:11 - 00:20:09:18
Clark
Not like big arenas.
00:20:09:18 - 00:20:18:08
Cullen
Right? They're they're, they're in these, like, backrooms of, like gyms and totally like, you know, a little tiny kind of, you know, concert halls or something.
00:20:18:08 - 00:20:19:04
Clark
They're not professional.
00:20:19:04 - 00:20:37:00
Cullen
Boxing and they're not. Exactly. And so there's this real, you know, I think it's like if there's like an overarching theme of the movie and it's not this in a cynical way, but there's almost this like pathetic kind of element to it where it's like, oh, this is actually when it cuts way out to like the wide shot and you see the whole kind of, you know, the audience.
00:20:37:00 - 00:20:47:03
Cullen
It's not a huge audience. And then you just get this little tiny ring in the middle and you kind of see them like falling over in front of each other. And yeah, it's like I think that the movie really.
00:20:47:03 - 00:20:47:17
Clark
It was almost.
00:20:47:17 - 00:20:58:19
Cullen
Again, even though it's sort of an ensemble, it sort of does a good job of putting you into Bernie Jeff Bridges kind of shoes where he yeah, he starts out as just kind of wanting to do it for fun.
00:20:59:04 - 00:21:00:02
Clark
Yeah. He doesn't even get.
00:21:00:02 - 00:21:25:11
Cullen
Being a professional. And then it's yeah, it's Billy telling you, convince them, you know, go on. Like Audrey's my manager, my old manager, ex manager. But, and then, and then by the end of the film, you know, spoilers, but we don't usually go through these things chronologically. So. Yeah, but, you know, by the end of the film, Jeff Bridges has kind of left that and he's he's good for himself.
00:21:25:11 - 00:21:27:17
Cullen
He doesn't feel like he's got a kid and he's.
00:21:27:22 - 00:21:30:17
Clark
Well, he's a working man. He's got a family by the end of the film.
00:21:30:17 - 00:21:37:04
Cullen
See how he kind of is introducing this life really briefly, kind of thinks it's a little bit pathetic and then moves on and.
00:21:37:04 - 00:22:06:08
Clark
Well, it's interesting and fascinating. It is fascinating. And that, you know, and it almost makes you wonder, you know, if is Billy kind of uses him and maybe it or not not not consciously, not not maliciously, but almost he uses him, right? He he probably sees a younger him in the gym. Right. And he's probably mostly talking to himself when he's like, hey, you know, you've got potential.
00:22:06:08 - 00:22:16:00
Clark
But but there's another part where they where they're talking and he's like, you know, you're soft. I see that you're soft inside, right? Yeah.
00:22:16:00 - 00:22:16:08
Cullen
Yeah.
00:22:16:12 - 00:22:42:02
Clark
And and I almost wonder, you know, in his in a way is this is, is, is, is Ernie really kind of like a mirror to Billy in a way or introspective. Yeah. Yeah. Or, you know and so it's almost like it's really it's really Billy who wants to get back in the ring and prove himself. And maybe because as we find out later, you know, he hasn't been around to the real Jim, to his manager in a long time.
00:22:42:14 - 00:23:01:02
Clark
And the excuse is kind of like, well, he owed him money, but that's not really why you you know, I think I think it's because he kind of, you know, maybe he recognized that he was soft inside himself or he was afraid that he was soft inside himself and that he didn't want to show his face. But but yeah.
00:23:01:02 - 00:23:08:16
Clark
So the performances I thought were just outstanding. I had never seen, I don't think, in any other performance.
00:23:09:07 - 00:23:12:01
Cullen
Susan Terrell No, I don't. I.
00:23:12:08 - 00:23:42:19
Clark
I had you ever because I don't think so. At least nothing that was significant that kind of registered her to me. But I was I was really impressed with her performance on the film and almost kind of in a little bit of a way, she really reminded me of Faye Dunaway in Barfly, which is also a really and actually I think I'm going to choose that for our next film because I feel like there's a lot of connective tissue, There's a lot of like there's through there's some through lines here.
00:23:42:19 - 00:23:51:16
Clark
I feel like it would be fun to kind of compare and contrast. Of course, that film is not about boxing, but it does have an element of of that.
00:23:51:16 - 00:23:54:11
Cullen
Some Susan Terrell is referred to as a barfly in this.
00:23:54:18 - 00:23:55:12
Clark
There you go.
00:23:55:18 - 00:23:59:14
Cullen
But yeah I think she she primarily did I think stage work.
00:23:59:19 - 00:24:00:11
Clark
I think before.
00:24:00:22 - 00:24:04:05
Cullen
And then and then did some work with Andy Warhol it looks like And.
00:24:04:12 - 00:24:26:11
Clark
So yeah she did some smaller things and I think even towards the end of her, you know, life or career in life, exploitation, films and things, I think she had kind of a a challenging life and health issues and some stuff. But what here's what blows my mind. This just blows my mind. I do know that she was like, I think something like 26 when she made this film.
00:24:26:11 - 00:24:29:07
Clark
Yes. And and Stacey was like 29.
00:24:29:14 - 00:24:30:15
Cullen
Yeah, I know.
00:24:32:02 - 00:24:45:09
Clark
And he even says into the film, too, you know. But when he set when Billy, you know, when Stacey, as the character Billy says, like his his character is like almost turning 30, I almost lost it. I was like, How in the world could you be oh.
00:24:45:18 - 00:24:49:13
Cullen
Okay, that's I thought he was like, I'm almost I'm almost that age, right?
00:24:50:03 - 00:25:03:11
Clark
I thought he was I thought he was seriously, like, at least his face. Yeah. I mean, talk about what a perfect casting then for me, because his face just says hard life, you know? I mean, wow. Like, think.
00:25:03:15 - 00:25:08:06
Cullen
Is Keach was born in 41. Yeah. And this is 70.
00:25:08:06 - 00:25:26:15
Clark
I think he was 29 when he filmed it. Yeah. Yeah. So I was first of all, I was just blown away, like, by that. Like. Like Bridges. Yeah. He looks his age. Yeah, but, but Stacy, as Billy, I was just blown away. But, but even more so than my point that, you know, here they are relatively young, both of them are young.
00:25:27:00 - 00:25:38:07
Clark
And wow, did they just do an extraordinary job of playing characters with, you know, so much more road behind them than than their age would lead you to believe?
00:25:38:09 - 00:25:38:19
Cullen
Oh, we had a.
00:25:38:19 - 00:25:39:08
Clark
Real life.
00:25:39:08 - 00:25:40:17
Cullen
Agent in their eyes. Yeah.
00:25:41:00 - 00:26:01:21
Clark
And she was nominated for an Academy Award for this film. Didn't win, but she was nominated. And I think this film didn't. You know, I am not a Houston historian. I will admit, but I think didn't Houston have kind of a maybe a decade or so of kind of he was in a little bit of a downturn, right?
00:26:01:21 - 00:26:02:02
Clark
Yeah.
00:26:02:02 - 00:26:11:10
Cullen
He flops. Yeah. Before you you had some struggles with making, you know, successful films for for about a decade. Yeah.
00:26:11:15 - 00:26:21:12
Clark
And this film, I think kind of like it was like very critically acclaimed, of course. I don't know. Do you know if it was commercially successful? I'm not quite believe so.
00:26:21:12 - 00:26:41:03
Cullen
I think I think it came in. So it's kind of a I'm not I don't know what the exact numbers are, but I think that it did pretty well. I know, like Roger Ebert considered it one of Houston's best. Yeah. And so I feel like it would have would have done decently There's not really I can't really find much information on like exact box office numbers.
00:26:41:03 - 00:26:43:04
Clark
But but yeah yeah.
00:26:44:00 - 00:26:45:00
Cullen
Played it con as well.
00:26:45:06 - 00:26:48:00
Clark
And this was an amazing year for films too.
00:26:48:08 - 00:26:48:19
Cullen
Oh yeah.
00:26:49:00 - 00:26:49:14
Clark
Yeah. I mean.
00:26:49:14 - 00:26:55:22
Cullen
Oh my God, we were talking to this earlier, but yeah, yeah, I this year of movies today is unheard.
00:26:55:22 - 00:27:15:23
Clark
Of. I know. It's extraordinary. I mean, so this is, you know, so for it to, to, to live in the year of The Godfather and Deliverance and Cabaret and Last Tango in Paris and, you know, Houston actually had the life and times of Judge Roy Bean was actually released in 72 as well as another Houston film, I think was was pretty successful.
00:27:16:12 - 00:27:38:23
Clark
Matter of fact, I at least commercially I know it was so a lot of big movies and and so for him to kind of I mean you know rise above all of that even and and get so much acclaim is is pretty amazing. Well I kind of, you know, kind of bouncing all over the place here. And that's just how we do it.
00:27:38:23 - 00:28:06:18
Clark
But, you know, you it sounds like that you've done a little research into Conrad Hall's work on the film. I'm kind of would be kind of curious to hear a little bit more about what you've learned as far as his his approach techniques or anything else that you might be able to share. Because I would agree the film has a really extraordinary look and and it's a unique look and feel to it that that really kind of grabbed me and pulled me in.
00:28:07:06 - 00:28:30:06
Cullen
Yeah. I mean, Conrad Hall, one of the reasons I love him is that he's he's such an adaptive cinematographer. Yeah. You know, he doesn't you can always tell it's a Connie Hall movie because it's beautiful, but it's it's like, you know, two of his movies come look. Totally, totally different. I mean, this looks nothing like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid with maybe a few stylistic through lines, but.
00:28:30:06 - 00:28:34:00
Clark
Well, and he did Cool Hand Luke to Right It Cool. And he's done a lot of films, But.
00:28:34:01 - 00:28:38:12
Cullen
You and Luke actually, I would say, looks a little bit more similar. This just because of those farming scenes when they're.
00:28:38:12 - 00:28:48:10
Clark
Out, those white, those white sky exteriors where where it's just and you can. And that was one of the things that I mean I could just feel and smell this film.
00:28:48:15 - 00:28:51:03
Cullen
Know I feel like I could make literally. Yeah.
00:28:51:03 - 00:28:55:05
Clark
And I feel like, yeah, Cool Hand Luke is similar, just like the.
00:28:55:05 - 00:29:27:20
Cullen
Heat loved texture. Like he was such a cinematographer who loved it and so that like so few other DPS did it at the time. But like, even just like in this playing with the grain for the interior and the exterior scenes where the exteriors are almost brainless because they're overexposed, whereas the interiors are really, really grainy and dimly lit and, you know, using that grain to kind of have this, this grimy feel of like the inside of a bar at three in the afternoon, which is right.
00:29:28:00 - 00:29:29:11
Cullen
The worst time to be at a bar.
00:29:29:11 - 00:29:30:20
Clark
In Stockton.
00:29:30:20 - 00:29:52:14
Cullen
Especially in Stockton. Yeah. But he and so he, you know, his, his choices in that sort of thing where it's like you're you've got a cinematographer who's working and he wasn't a perfectionist. You know, I think that's one thing that I love about the Hall as well as that his philosophy is what he called magical realism, I think was the name that he coined for it.
00:29:52:23 - 00:29:53:10
Clark
Okay.
00:29:53:11 - 00:30:12:05
Cullen
Which basically means like, look at a situation, look at this, the light in in a in a setting and, you know, make it sort of magical, but not necessarily like in a positive sense, but just kind of bring like that extra layer of like a fantasy to it because it's it's a film, you know, so.
00:30:12:06 - 00:30:12:14
Clark
Right.
00:30:13:00 - 00:30:36:21
Cullen
So like heighten, you know, if there's if there's light coming in through a window, heighten that by by putting a more powerful light out the window and amazing the room and then you've got like a beam of light coming in. You know, if there's if there's one portion of a place, like if you're in a bar and the the lights over the tables are like blasting down on the people, then, you know, you kind of he was a really simple cinematographer in that way.
00:30:36:21 - 00:30:57:20
Cullen
And I really like that. I admire that. He never felt gimmicky. He never felt like he was going into a place and setting up, you know, 2 million lights because you wanted to show off like his. Yeah. Oftentimes his actual philosophy was just to kind of take one single light and find a source for it and then just bounce that one single light source around the room with what.
00:30:57:20 - 00:31:19:13
Clark
You see in these bar interior. A lot of this, you know, these conversations, like I mentioned earlier, the the really wonderful scene between Billy and Oma where where he says, like, you can count on me. You know, you can count on me. Yeah. Not only is that a really extraordinarily well-written and well acted scene and one of my favorite in the entire film.
00:31:19:20 - 00:31:38:00
Clark
But that's I mean, I feel like that's a great example of the lighting that you're talking about here, and it works so wonderfully thematically where she's kind of sitting in front of that window and it looks like it's the only I mean, it feels like it's the only source of light really pretty much in this bar. And.
00:31:38:00 - 00:31:45:08
Cullen
Well, and that's that's that's what magical like that's what his I think his term means is that the scene doesn't look lit. Yeah it.
00:31:45:12 - 00:31:46:01
Clark
Sure Yeah.
00:31:46:01 - 00:31:53:00
Cullen
It just looks like you're, it looks like a movie Like it doesn't necessarily look like real life. It looks like a heightened version of real like.
00:31:53:00 - 00:31:54:19
Clark
Heightened version of real life, Right. Yeah.
00:31:54:20 - 00:32:15:23
Cullen
I think that that, you know, that really lines up with my sensibilities and what I like out of images. But it also, I think, really works for films like this where again you're you're looking at this like I don't I don't think it's a pessimistic movie and I don't yeah that the way that it's lit is pessimistic either it's it's realistic.
00:32:15:23 - 00:32:39:12
Cullen
It's authentic. Yeah. And I think that it really again Connie Hall didn't wasn't a big fan of of grain like if you usually try to get that's one of the reasons that he actually liked overexposing exteriors was because it would get rid of so much grain and make the image really clean. But just because it's his personal preference doesn't mean that he can't go, you know, at this scene should be grainy because it should feel gritty.
00:32:39:12 - 00:32:42:04
Cullen
It should feel like you want to take a shower after watching like.
00:32:42:13 - 00:32:43:07
Clark
Which you do.
00:32:43:11 - 00:32:48:14
Cullen
Which you know you do. Also, I'm looking at some of these characters here. I want to take a.
00:32:48:18 - 00:33:17:07
Clark
Well and a fun little tidbit that I learned. You know, apparently, I guess when when they were in production and the studio is getting, you know, dailies back, I guess, apparently, or, you know, starting to lay eyes on some of the first footage of the film. Or maybe it was like the producer. I can't recall exactly, but there was a little bit of a concern in the beginning with the way these interiors were lit so minimally or they were, you know, really dark at that time.
00:33:17:07 - 00:33:40:18
Clark
Drive in theaters were still a pretty big source of income. They went you know some drive through is would still do first run. But there was of course a lot of second run. And so there was actually a pretty decent amount of money there to get, you know, to do this, the drive through circuit. And they were really concerned that these that all of those interiors were so darkly lit or.
00:33:40:19 - 00:33:42:06
Cullen
You would be able to see you wouldn't be.
00:33:42:06 - 00:33:48:09
Clark
Able to see. Right. Because it's you know, it's a whole different situation. You're like, boy, how far back are you know, it's the projection and.
00:33:48:15 - 00:33:50:16
Cullen
You're always going to have some ambient light.
00:33:51:00 - 00:34:01:09
Clark
You're going to have ambient light and you know, all the reasons why, you know, the picture quality in a drive in theater is nowhere near what it would be in an actual, you know, real into your, you know, inside.
00:34:01:09 - 00:34:03:07
Cullen
Yeah, who cares? It's just a bunch of teenagers. Yeah, it's.
00:34:03:07 - 00:34:12:12
Clark
Just a bunch of teenagers anyway. Like, well, you know, they're just making out the car anyway. Who cares? But they were, like, really concerned about it, and it was almost kind of came to, you know, and Houston had to really fight for that, apparently.
00:34:13:20 - 00:34:35:05
Cullen
Well, I mean, what's what's funny about that, too, is that mirrors another, you know, film from this year of The Godfather where Gordon Willis had to, like, fight tooth and nail to to, you know, he intentionally underexposed so the producers couldn't bring it up in like. So there was nothing in the shadows. Yeah. For to pull out of it.
00:34:35:11 - 00:35:08:18
Cullen
Yeah. And so you know and I think that that's, that to me is really important is, you know, being able to make those choices. And I think that that shows why these like Gordon Willis and Connie Hall were such loud and yeah, memorable and famous. And in spiral cinematographers is because they they made these creative decisions. So they're you know when they made as Connie Hall puts it, when he painted with light then nobody else could come in and and change that.
00:35:08:18 - 00:35:12:11
Cullen
And it's and and I think it shows I think it shows in how good these movies look.
00:35:12:20 - 00:35:37:04
Clark
You know, And it's interesting that you mentioned Godfather and I'd actually just recently been watching those films, the trilogy in the new 4K release. And so I just recently watched the first Godfather film. And you're right that they the interiors are often quite dark and both, but they are so different. Yeah, so different looking. And The Godfather is such a warm film.
00:35:37:06 - 00:35:40:09
Clark
Those interiors are so warm and.
00:35:40:22 - 00:35:42:13
Cullen
Warm and it looks much more.
00:35:42:18 - 00:35:44:14
Clark
A much cleaner lit, much.
00:35:44:14 - 00:35:51:23
Cullen
Cleaner. It looks much more more intentionally posed for me. Not in the back but yeah but not Yeah they're, they're so different.
00:35:51:23 - 00:36:27:13
Clark
Yeah, yeah, so different. And so even though yes they kind of have this similar, you know, dark interior, they couldn't be more different. I mean I get a I have a totally different reaction and kind of feeling to the way that that city has shot The Godfather, which is it just goes to show I mean, even it's just extraordinary the impact that, you know, seemingly even small decisions can have on through the course of a whole film on how it hits you and how it resonates with you, how it combines with the story performances script, which is just part of what I love about this.
00:36:27:13 - 00:36:57:02
Cullen
But but I mean, that's honestly to to, to again, not to get super hyper technical, but yeah, one of the benefits I think about, you know, shooting on on film in general as well is that it's it's a lot easier for a cinematographer to physically sort of bake in that look to the celluloid and to have their decision kind of, you know, physically imprinted on the film.
00:36:57:02 - 00:37:21:06
Cullen
Whereas, you know, with with digital cameras, there's just so much latitude and there is a lot of latitude with film in a lot of ways. But in terms of color and in terms of like the way that your lighting, you know, you can alter a lot more with digital cameras. And I think that that's why so many movies these days look very similar because there's kind of a like homogenized like, okay, this is how you light an interior, this is how you color great and interior and this is and what Yeah.
00:37:21:09 - 00:37:23:18
Clark
And once it gets out of the DP's hands, I mean.
00:37:23:23 - 00:37:24:18
Cullen
Exactly. Yeah.
00:37:24:18 - 00:37:52:15
Clark
Whoever's, whoever's managing the post and approving all of that, you know, they could. You're right. I think there is more light and it's certainly cheaper. I mean, it is certainly cheaper to manipulate those things. But it's funny, you know, it's just to digress a tad, I mean, you're talking about kind of, you know, DP's quote unquote, protecting their choices by shooting in a way that makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to change those choices once the film has been shot and it's kind of out of the DP's hands.
00:37:53:08 - 00:38:22:19
Clark
It's funny, you know, actors will often do this to me and you'll see like where, you know, the director, you know, the is kind of doing the scene the way they think it should be done in the way they want to do it. And the director's like, okay, but, you know, try this other way. And so that instead of just flat out saying, no, they don't want to try this other way, because, of course, once an actor is done, I mean, they have no say, generally speaking, for most actors, unless you're, you know, huge star and you're you're producing a film and everything.
00:38:23:03 - 00:38:42:12
Clark
But, you know, once you've done it, once you've done your performances, it's that's it. It's out of your hands. So you have no say on what take might be chosen, but they'll like just completely sabotage and sandbag, you know, the takes. They're doing it the way that they don't want to do it. But but they also don't want to be seen as somebody who's saying just flat out no.
00:38:42:17 - 00:38:48:20
Clark
So they'll just like sandbag those scenes. So they're like, okay, I know they can't use that. They're not going to pick that take.
00:38:48:20 - 00:38:49:04
Cullen
Yeah.
00:38:49:09 - 00:38:50:07
Clark
So I just kind of.
00:38:50:10 - 00:38:58:12
Cullen
Chop up a performance so much in the edit and Yeah. But that the, the I think it's funny that they'll just flop the.
00:38:58:19 - 00:39:11:13
Clark
Yeah yeah yeah. You just sandbag and you're like no I don't want to And I think I've even done that before where I'm like no I, but not often. I mean I'm literally sleeping like maybe once or twice. I've done that before. Oh my goodness.
00:39:11:13 - 00:39:26:08
Cullen
But, but no, it's, I think it's, it's in it goes to show on a wider level of this film that you you know, you have there's there's a there's a look there's a choice behind how this film looks. Yeah. And it's not you know it's it's.
00:39:27:05 - 00:39:46:12
Clark
Well there's a lot of choices. I mean it's you look at everything. Yeah I mean, you know, just to kind of, you know, obviously the cinematography which you're focusing on, has a big, big thing to do with that. But it's like, you know, the script is written in in that kind of matter of fact way to it. There's like this really beautiful poetry in the language that these characters speak.
00:39:46:20 - 00:39:48:21
Cullen
Written by the same the author of the book as well.
00:39:49:04 - 00:40:15:18
Clark
Right. Right. And which was a Leonard Gardiner and I don't think had did he does he have any other books? This may be his only novel, I think. But and I'm sure Houston, you know, had a little bit to do with the screenplay, too, although he's not I don't think he has any credits in that regard. Leonard is the sole screenplay credit, but there are some significant deviations from the book.
00:40:15:18 - 00:40:34:19
Clark
I think the ending is a pretty big deviation. So Houston may have at it does feel like it's kind of a very Houston esque ending to me. Yeah, Yeah. And the book does I've not read the book, but I have read though that it's quite different. But I mean, just in the casting, you know, Stacy, I think is perfectly cast.
00:40:34:19 - 00:40:47:08
Clark
His face feel like everything from like the scar on his upper lip to just just in the way that we were kind of joking that at 29 he almost looks like he's 45.
00:40:47:08 - 00:40:48:07
Cullen
Or, oh my God, you're so.
00:40:49:12 - 00:40:49:23
Clark
Interested.
00:40:50:04 - 00:40:50:21
Cullen
In some things.
00:40:51:03 - 00:41:18:23
Clark
I mean, really. And, and it's such a beautiful contrast with such a young, fresh Jeff Bridges because that's the point. But that contrast and I think boxing is, you know, to just the costuming, the the location of Stockton, I know it is in the book, but choosing to actually shoot there for real, just every choice really does support, you know, all those that came before it.
00:41:19:09 - 00:41:35:22
Clark
And and it is a really fine line. You know, you were talking about how although it it doesn't the film does a good job of kind of showing these outsider characters and kind of in desperate situations. I mean, there's alcoholism basically, like at least a couple of, you know, at least Well.
00:41:35:22 - 00:41:38:06
Cullen
Alcohol is like a huge part of the movie. Yeah.
00:41:38:06 - 00:42:06:23
Clark
At least at least Stacie and Susan are alcoholics. I think like they're presented like they drinking constantly and they're drunk and they're in bars during the day. So it's like these desperate situations, but you don't feel like it's over the top. You know, there there is. That's such a fine line to walk. And I feel like all of these little choices, if you would have pushed too far on any of these choices, it would have just fallen over.
00:42:07:13 - 00:42:09:23
Clark
You know, I think the story would have just fallen over.
00:42:09:23 - 00:42:10:17
Cullen
It would have been too heavy.
00:42:10:17 - 00:42:35:19
Clark
Hand would have fallen over. Yeah. And it would have been so easy to make this melodramatic. It would have been. And I can just imagine, you know, all the ways, you know, that the music, the score, the performances, there's so many ways where it could have just fallen over. And and I feel like it's rare to find a film that can walk such a really razor sharp line for the entire duration of the film, which I think is important to note is short.
00:42:36:05 - 00:42:38:01
Clark
It's 97 minutes long.
00:42:38:01 - 00:42:42:02
Cullen
Yeah, it goes by. Yeah. It's like by the time you get to the ending, you're like, Oh, wow.
00:42:42:02 - 00:43:14:16
Clark
And I think if it were any longer, it would have also fallen over. Yeah, I was listening to the commentary that apparently there was a lot of scenes shot between when Billie goes back to sous ah, to Oma's apartment and he, he's given his things in a box and then when he meets back up. So between that and then when he meets back up with Ernie, there was a lot more shot, apparently a lot of scenes that kind of showed Billie going downhill like this ending.
00:43:14:16 - 00:43:33:17
Clark
Okay, just Cindy and I. And and I think this is a good decision. I think at the end it was about maybe 15 minutes ish or so, and they ended up leaving that on the cutting room floor because it was just like that would have pushed it over the edge to like, oh, my gosh, Like, I feel like, you know, I'm being bludgeoned by this.
00:43:33:17 - 00:43:34:15
Cullen
We get it again.
00:43:34:15 - 00:43:55:17
Clark
It's so much, you know, just too, too much. Yeah. But it's always interesting to me because those decisions are so difficult to make in the moment. Of course, hindsight, you look at the film, it's done. You're like, Wow, this is amazing. But and Colin, you know, you've made films when you're in the moment, all those choices can be so they're so fragile.
00:43:55:21 - 00:44:04:13
Cullen
It's hard to remove yourself from the work too. And yeah, look at it with, with sort of a third eye. It can be really. Yeah. So.
00:44:04:13 - 00:44:25:09
Clark
But you never even know. Even like you never, you know, you just and it's, there's like this, there's this a certain element of just luck or something where it's like it comes together and it works. And, and that's always impressive to me when I see that. And I'm always really curious about that, like how, you know, I kind of want to do like a like an attack, you know, like a post mortem or something.
00:44:25:09 - 00:44:43:22
Clark
Like how did that, you know, how were they able to do that? And sometimes it's just, you know, it's an alchemy that's impossible to to dissect at the end of the day. But anyway, I, I guess my overall point for that huge giant ramp was just that I was extremely impressed with what a fine line. I felt like the film walked and walked.
00:44:43:22 - 00:44:45:00
Clark
Well, you know, and.
00:44:45:00 - 00:45:08:06
Cullen
Again, it's it's like it's subtle. It's authentic. And it's I think again, it's not like we talk about this beginning, but it's not dour and it's doesn't it doesn't feel and I think had have they played up those elements like you said it would it would have just felt so over the top. And so like just just you know, you're just being.
00:45:08:06 - 00:45:08:13
Cullen
Yeah.
00:45:09:05 - 00:45:22:19
Clark
Well, I just feel imagine magic not to, like, beat a dead horse here, but just kind of in a funny way, you know? And I don't know if we can think of any any examples off the top of our head, but you know, you're talking about how we never cover films we don't like, but that doesn't mean that we can't use them as contrast to films.
00:45:22:19 - 00:45:44:15
Clark
We do. Yeah, but I'm trying to think in my mind. I mean, I know generically I can just remember snippets of films where it's like, because there's so many of these like addiction films or, you know, films that are representing like alcoholics or alcohol abuse or drug use or abuse. And they're almost comical in the way that they represent, you know, these characters.
00:45:44:15 - 00:46:02:03
Clark
Because you can tell that the director of the people making the film are really trying to make this seem, quote unquote, bad. You know, it's it's bad and okay. And it's like, yeah, it's you know what I mean? Yeah. And it's just like, so ridiculous.
00:46:02:13 - 00:46:08:15
Cullen
No, I actually I mean, to I have a specific example of a movie that was actually quite popular.
00:46:08:21 - 00:46:09:03
Clark
Okay.
00:46:09:06 - 00:46:28:23
Cullen
Years ago, but hereditary. No, no, Hereditary was midsommar. Oh, it was Ari Aster's movie after Hereditary, which I actually liked. Hereditary. And then, yeah, I saw Midsommar, and I just remember sitting through that and being like, I get it. You know, life sucks. Like.
00:46:28:23 - 00:46:37:04
Clark
Like nobler misery. What was that? How? Help! Help draw me in on where you see, because I'm trying to read. That was the movie where? Where they like, they go to Sweden, Sweden or something.
00:46:37:05 - 00:46:37:23
Cullen
They go to like the.
00:46:37:23 - 00:46:39:06
Clark
And they take shrooms.
00:46:39:16 - 00:46:42:14
Cullen
And yeah, it's like there's like the ayahuasca thing or whatever.
00:46:42:17 - 00:46:43:11
Clark
Ayahuasca. Yeah.
00:46:43:11 - 00:46:54:12
Cullen
So yeah, she's like, you know, the movie opens with her family, her whole family dying and then her boyfriend is doesn't care about her. And then they go to this thing and then all their boyfriends, friends.
00:46:54:12 - 00:46:54:20
Clark
Heavy.
00:46:54:20 - 00:47:08:11
Cullen
Handed be there. Then it's like every single super element is is like, you know, made to depress you and be like, oh, this is so sad. And I just by the end of the movie, like, I'm just exhausted. I'm tired of this. I don't know. Yeah. And it was really long and so.
00:47:08:19 - 00:47:24:07
Clark
And, and I think that's exactly why they left that 15 minutes out of Fat City which was a good call. But I think that, you know, it's kind of another angle to look at it as that you know, maybe I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you felt manipulated. You could see the strings, the you know, the director.
00:47:24:20 - 00:47:42:01
Cullen
Just just did. Where's where's this on its sleeve and. Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's the thing about this is not that not that the movie in any way to me started to drag that city. Yeah. However, it's really nice to watch a movie and to go, man, that ended at the perfect time.
00:47:42:10 - 00:47:49:06
Clark
And I didn't know how it was going to end like this was not a film where I like I had it figured out. This was not a film where I actually, when went.
00:47:49:14 - 00:48:10:14
Cullen
Ahead, I was I was kind of taken aback. I was surprised that like, Oh, this is and it does that also in a really genius way where it kind of at that moment, it cuts ahead. You don't really realize it's cut ahead, but then they just give you the clues contextually, like they don't need to show the montage of everyone moving on and Jeff Bridges going off with his wife and having a kid and things like that.
00:48:10:14 - 00:48:12:07
Cullen
But instead, you.
00:48:12:07 - 00:48:12:19
Clark
Know, you.
00:48:12:22 - 00:48:30:16
Cullen
Just you know, you come into this moment that's kind of the last set piece of the film. And. Yeah, and that just you feel like the way that the characters perform that, that Yes, significant time has passed. I think it's supposed to be what, like six or something? I don't know. Like it would be more than that because he's got children now.
00:48:30:16 - 00:48:33:22
Cullen
So clearly it's been about a year or more sometimes.
00:48:33:22 - 00:48:44:02
Clark
He still has his like busted nose. Yeah, I'm not quite sure. I didn't catch exactly how much time was implied had passed, but but you get the sense you don't need to know exactly how many months or when.
00:48:44:02 - 00:48:45:11
Cullen
It's time has passed.
00:48:45:11 - 00:49:01:12
Clark
It's irrelevant. Yeah, you know, but you remind something to just go back a little bit to kind of directing choices and cinematography choices in that scene in the diner. And they're talking, you know, they're kind of looking at this cook like, you know, and like, I can't imagine, like, what that life.
00:49:01:15 - 00:49:02:18
Cullen
Is waking up every morning.
00:49:02:18 - 00:49:15:16
Clark
Like waking up every morning. And and then we have Billy kind of turn around and he looks at all of the people there. And there's this really interesting. It's like, looks like a freeze frame.
00:49:15:16 - 00:49:19:06
Cullen
Yeah, it goes like Tableau for a moment. You know, all the actors have frozen like that.
00:49:19:06 - 00:49:22:22
Clark
They've but it like smoke rising, right? It's just like, yeah.
00:49:22:22 - 00:49:25:04
Cullen
And cars continue going by outside. Yeah.
00:49:25:04 - 00:49:28:09
Clark
So it's like a fake freeze and kind of a pan.
00:49:28:17 - 00:49:30:00
Cullen
Kind of a Gus Van Santos.
00:49:30:04 - 00:49:38:20
Clark
Kind of. I was. I was surprised that it was like it was probably the most, like, obviously stylistic choice in the film, but it was.
00:49:38:22 - 00:49:45:06
Cullen
It's in that moment like it he can kind of feel that he's he just has this sudden realizes how distant he is.
00:49:45:15 - 00:49:54:00
Clark
We're like, really have entered his mind. Yeah. You know, and but that just stood out to me. I thought that was like a really I was like, taken aback. I had to.
00:49:54:00 - 00:50:03:03
Cullen
Let even just the cook, the fry cook that turns out and smiles and the fact that Yeah, that Tully was a fry cook at the you know, that that's the job that he gets fired from.
00:50:03:03 - 00:50:04:02
Clark
Right, right, right.
00:50:04:02 - 00:50:17:08
Cullen
And so you know Yeah it's it really again without saying much it leaves you with that feeling like at least like kind of lingering in your mind.
00:50:17:16 - 00:50:18:15
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:50:18:23 - 00:50:21:17
Cullen
This melancholic kind of ending.
00:50:21:17 - 00:50:40:06
Clark
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think melancholy melancholic would be a good a good way to describe the film. There's a bittersweet maybe to, you know, Yes. A mixture of, like, suffering and lost, but also that like, hey, this is life. Like, yeah, this is.
00:50:40:06 - 00:51:01:12
Cullen
Life. There's a recognizing of, you know, the worst parts in that. But like, but it's not like something where, you know, till he comes out of it in denial and like it's quite clear that he knows, you know that that things could be better. Like at least that's the sense I got that there's this there's this almost like tinge of not necessarily hopefulness there.
00:51:01:12 - 00:51:04:00
Cullen
So yeah I guess I guess hope is a decent word for it.
00:51:04:01 - 00:51:27:06
Clark
I think there's some hope. I think there's some hope in the film. All right. Well, on that note, on a note of hope and done a happy ending. But but yeah, man. Well, I'm really grateful for your pic. You know, I hadn't seen this film, and I feel like I'm better for having seen it. If nothing else, I feel like, you know, it's like it's it's a good it's like stay out of day drinking in bars.
00:51:27:06 - 00:51:29:18
Cullen
It's the other day drinking instead of boxing.
00:51:29:18 - 00:51:48:17
Clark
Stay out of it. It's not getting that's maybe the biggest. That's the biggest. And maybe, you know, and maybe sometime, maybe in the future we can do like we can have kind of episodes that are based or I'm just totally riffing now. I just thought of this where maybe we could have some themed episodes where we cover like, like, say, boxing films in general.
00:51:48:17 - 00:52:18:21
Clark
Can I just real quick, I know they were, but I also watched Million Dollar Baby not long ago before. This is a boxing is one of those like commonly used are sort of commonly used you know symbols, right. Like cinematic symbols about, you know, used in a lot of storytelling. So maybe, you know, who knows, maybe someday we can kind of cover like boxing as like a theme in cinema and kind of what that means and everything like that.
Clark
But anyway, I digress.
00:52:20:09 - 00:52:22:00
Cullen
No, that'd be I like that idea.
00:52:22:00 - 00:52:32:16
Clark
So maybe we'll do something like that. All right. Well, hey, everybody, if you've stuck with this this long, we appreciate it. We hope you enjoyed it. If you stuck with this this long and you didn't enjoy it, that's super weird. But hey.
00:52:32:16 - 00:52:33:23
Cullen
What your shit it.
00:52:34:04 - 00:52:58:01
Clark
Whatever floats your boat. We still appreciate it. Colin, it's been a pleasure. I missed doing our podcast. Yeah. So I'm glad that we're able to to do this again. But yeah, until next time, everybody stay safe and we'll see you next time.