00:00:11:16 - 00:00:22:09
Cullen
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. Episode 57. I'm Cullen McFater and as per usual, I'm joined by my lovely co-host, Clark Coffey. How are.
00:00:22:09 - 00:00:35:07
Clark
You? I'm lovely today. Yeah, I was that was so sweet. You always come up? Yeah. You come up with a new album? Yeah. I appreciate it. Lovely. That's not. That's one you've not used. Well, I feel so touched. Thanks, man. Here you.
00:00:35:07 - 00:00:39:02
Cullen
Go. Yeah, I have to. You know, I have to keep the spirits up perfect.
00:00:39:02 - 00:00:44:18
Clark
I appreciate it. Yeah, I feel. I feel so wanted on this podcast. Colin. Thank you.
00:00:45:10 - 00:00:54:05
Cullen
And today is a the kind of almost like an unofficial sequel to last week's. I guess they're all unofficial sequel to each other, aren't they?
00:00:54:05 - 00:00:56:11
Clark
Where they are in our world. That's right.
00:00:56:16 - 00:01:09:15
Cullen
In terms of the the content and the, you know, subject matter of the film tone, I think you actually kind of spoiled it last week in the podcast. But we're doing barfly which is.
00:01:10:12 - 00:01:12:15
Clark
Yeah, I think I might have yeah I might have said I think.
00:01:12:15 - 00:01:13:15
Cullen
You said last time.
00:01:13:15 - 00:01:14:14
Clark
Yeah, yeah.
00:01:15:08 - 00:01:36:10
Cullen
And Barfly, it's stars, Mickey Rourke, Faye Dunaway. It's a bar. But Schroeder is the director who I had never seen anything else from Bobby Miller or Robbie Miller did the cinematography, who I have seen other work he did Paris, Texas, and some work with Jim Jarmusch and things like that.
00:01:36:21 - 00:01:47:16
Clark
Yeah, lots of it. Lots of Jim's films. I mean, he's done, I almost want to say, I think maybe half a dozen. Yeah, he, he shot a lot of Lars von Trier's or at least a couple of Lars films and then.
00:01:47:16 - 00:01:49:19
Cullen
Retired in, I think the early 2000 said.
00:01:50:02 - 00:01:52:10
Clark
Yep. With coffee and Cigarets. Yeah, coffee.
00:01:52:12 - 00:01:54:23
Cullen
Say, I think he died or 218. Sorry.
00:01:55:04 - 00:02:17:18
Clark
Yeah, sadly. But yeah, I mean some really fantastic films. I mean, not that we'll get into it more, but just. Yeah. Alex Cox's Repo Man, Wim Wenders, Paris, Texas To live and die in L.A.. Friedkin You've got it down by law. That's Jarmusch. You've got Dead Man with Johnny Depp. That's Jim Jarmusch, Black and White Coffee and Cigarets I think is also beautifully shot black and white film.
00:02:17:18 - 00:02:30:18
Clark
That's another one of Jim's Ghost Dog, which I actually love and have considered selecting at some point. That's another Jarmusch film. So yeah, this this guy's got some heavy duty credits under his belt.
00:02:31:14 - 00:02:49:03
Cullen
Yes. Yeah. And he's a fantastic I mean, he, he it's interesting and I think we are going to be doing a lot of comparing and contrasting to our last episode. Um, yeah, with Fat City. Just because not only is this again, the subject matters is somewhat similar.
00:02:49:12 - 00:02:51:18
Clark
It feels connected, right? I was right.
00:02:52:02 - 00:03:12:20
Cullen
It yeah. I mean, there they are. And they you know just even the, the atmosphere of them is very similar. But before not only that, but I also think that Connie Hall's work on Fat City and Robbie Miller's work on this on Barfly is actually very, very similar as well. They're both kind of like this gritty.
00:03:13:05 - 00:03:41:03
Clark
Yeah, they definitely feel like related films. Well, yeah. So, so we're going to get into all that and but I'm happy that you saw that too, because it was it was kind of an intuitive reaction that I had. You know, I had never seen Fat City when I watched when I was watching the film for our last episode that I just had this like intuitive, this was like, whoa, this film really, really reminds me of Barfly in a lot of ways, and I hadn't seen it in a while.
00:03:41:11 - 00:03:56:19
Clark
So it was kind of this very vague, you know, It was just it was like kind of like the impression that I was receiving from Fat City tonally really reminded me of this one. But before we get into all of that nitty gritty, I always you know how I always like to start off and this is.
00:03:56:19 - 00:03:57:16
Cullen
Like experiences.
00:03:58:06 - 00:04:14:09
Clark
And well, and it's especially cool to be right because I want you to go first. But, you know, it had been a while since I had seen this film, but I saw this film, you know, for the first time it was released in 87. I did not see it at the theater at 11 years old. Who knows where it even was playing.
00:04:14:09 - 00:04:36:07
Clark
Probably had a less than wide release, but I probably saw this like on HBO or something, you know, two years later. Right. So I probably saw this in like maybe 89 or so. Now, if you recall, I had selected Rumble Fish for a previous film. So this is now my second eighties kind of art film starring Mickey Rourke.
00:04:36:07 - 00:04:38:11
Cullen
And with something to do with Francis Ford Coppola.
00:04:38:19 - 00:04:59:21
Clark
Oh, this one is very, very, very popular with friends. Yeah. So, so for anybody out there keeping score, if you're if you're trying to put a beat on inspiration, you know, like, what's the theme of inspirational films? For me, this might help, but okay, we'll get into that later. So you this is the first time you'd seen the film.
00:04:59:21 - 00:05:02:22
Clark
I'm really curious to hear about your impression of the whole thing.
00:05:03:05 - 00:05:27:08
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. So I saw it. I've seen it twice now. I watched it two nights in a row just for preparing for this. But, yeah, this was the eight, honestly. Like, I really I mean, we've talked about this at length before, about how I really love movies that kind of are just like ambling, you know, plotless vignettes of, of like, almost like a character study.
00:05:27:08 - 00:05:45:19
Cullen
You know, when I when we were talking about this before, I sort of said that it reminded me in a weird way, but there's even less plot in this of like the long goodbye, very similar to Fat City. Sort of honestly reminds me a little bit of like PTA was some of these movies as well, which isn't surprising.
00:05:45:19 - 00:06:12:09
Cullen
Um, I'm sure PETA has seen this, but like for example the most recent one liquor's Licorice Pizza, which yeah, again, thematically not very similar, but just kind of that, that like aimless, wandering, meandering plot about and you know, not it's quite lighthearted the whole movie like it's not there's nothing that is really again we talked about this last week too with fat City but there's nothing super depressing about it.
00:06:12:09 - 00:06:17:02
Cullen
There's nothing like it's not like they're living in great circumstances. The circumstances that they're living in are pretty shit.
00:06:17:07 - 00:06:19:14
Clark
But and it could be sad, right? Like this is they.
00:06:19:14 - 00:06:21:15
Cullen
Could you could easily do this is like you pressing.
00:06:21:18 - 00:07:00:03
Clark
Right? And then it's like you're like your characters are all alcoholics. Yeah, almost all of them are alcoholics. There's like, total dysfunctional relationships. There is violence. There is, you know, poverty. There's, you know, I mean, people are living in this totally depressed environment. These are totally checked out unrealized UN actually did actualized sorry characters and it gosh, you could have done this in such a way that would have been one of those like Hallmark afterschool specials like see Boys and Girls.
00:07:00:03 - 00:07:04:08
Clark
This is why you should never drink alcohol. That's bad. Okay.
00:07:05:15 - 00:07:39:12
Cullen
I know. Exactly. And that's that's what I mean is that you could like so many of these movies that are of similar subject matter aren't fun to watch at all because it's people with their lives falling apart and they're, you know, either drunk or constantly high or something in an apartment and it's just miserable and you're kind of like, you're not that that is a bad and, you know, not that movies have to be positive and fun the whole time, but there is something really charming about watching like 20 drunks in a bar, just all, you know, have this routine of like, Oh, we're going to go outside and watch the fight again.
00:07:39:12 - 00:07:59:12
Cullen
And it kind of, you know, the movie begins and ends in that exact same way, which yeah, and it doesn't seem like it's looking down on the characters at all. Like it it sort of begins and ends, you know, it opens up and they're fighting. Eddie and Henry are fighting in the alleyway, and then it ends pretty much with the exact same sequence of shots, just kind of saying like, here's the cycle of life.
00:08:00:02 - 00:08:17:01
Cullen
And but again, it's not like depressing. It's almost kind of charming in a way. Like these two have found their niche, like they've found their crowd. And no matter how many times Henry and Eddie fight, you know, Henry is never kicked out of the bar. And, well, he was asked to leave at the beginning, but he's never like a banned from the bar for life.
00:08:17:01 - 00:08:19:19
Cullen
Even though Eddie and Henry completely hate each other.
00:08:20:01 - 00:08:28:10
Clark
And it's just to tag in here. And Eddie, of course, is probably Frank Stallone. Yeah. Sylvester is brother's best role.
00:08:28:10 - 00:08:32:21
Cullen
I'm guessing you guessed it, Frank Stallone, as Norm MacDonald would say.
00:08:33:06 - 00:08:50:12
Clark
And I just. You got, you got. Because but but I. I love that you appreciate that about it because that's that's what I appreciate about it, I think as well. So I mean, it sounds like I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you enjoyed the film just like out of unaffected. Okay. I was just curious.
00:08:50:12 - 00:08:58:17
Clark
I mean, you know, it it seems like a film that is pretty niche, at least to me, right? That. Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:58:17 - 00:09:01:02
Cullen
Not super famous. Not like super well-known either.
00:09:01:20 - 00:09:20:10
Clark
I could easily imagine someone not getting this film, not liking this film, thinking this film is boring or, you know, I mean, I could easily somebody if you said, Hey, man, I, I didn't get it. I didn't, you know, this just didn't jive with me. I could I'd be like, yeah, I understand. It's probably got a very small audience, you know?
00:09:21:11 - 00:09:36:00
Clark
So anything else? Like what else stood out to you about it? I'm just curious. It's like, especially because I know just from having talked a little bit about this before earlier, you don't have a ton of exposure to Bukowski, so. Yeah.
00:09:36:05 - 00:09:36:18
Cullen
Yeah.
00:09:36:18 - 00:09:43:23
Clark
Bukowski wrote the script for this film. Bukowski was a writer well before this film. Some of you may know and.
00:09:43:23 - 00:09:54:05
Cullen
But yeah, so he's and Mickey Rourke is sort of playing Bukowski's alter ego that takes place kind of like this anti-hero of Bukowski's that is in a lot of his novels.
00:09:54:12 - 00:10:17:04
Clark
Somewhat somewhat altered biographical, but yeah, entirely. It's kind of like a fictionalized, you know, a pseudo fictionalized kind of like alter ego, I guess might be. But but does contain a lot of autobiographical elements, right? So because I think, you know, a lot of people might come into this film with the baggage of like, oh, this is Bukowski, okay.
00:10:17:05 - 00:10:19:06
Clark
You know, But you didn't have that really.
00:10:19:06 - 00:10:29:08
Cullen
No. Yeah, I mean, I, I, it's kind of, it's difficult to not know who Bukowski is. I mean, he's like, he's kind of like a, you know, Hemingway saint of.
00:10:29:08 - 00:10:33:22
Clark
Yeah. He's like a patron saint of drink is like drunk. Yes. You know.
00:10:33:22 - 00:10:53:01
Cullen
Yeah, yeah. Like that kind of Yeah. That very classic seventies eighties. Yeah. Like barfly. Really. Right. That's, that's why it's called what it is. Um, and so I think that the not knowing a ton though and not having read a ton of his work and not really being all that familiar with Bukowski or how he was in real life or something like that.
00:10:53:01 - 00:11:15:05
Cullen
Yeah, kind of. It allowed me to sort of enter the movie with like a very blank slate now and to really enjoy Mickey Rourke's performance as well. I mean he's so, he's like hamming it up, but it's so authentic to Koski. And I describe it to you earlier as sort of it's like kind of almost this cadence of like a Bob Dylan song or in everything.
00:11:15:05 - 00:11:17:14
Cullen
It's like to my near friends. And it's.
00:11:17:14 - 00:11:18:18
Clark
Like, that sort.
00:11:18:18 - 00:11:19:18
Cullen
Of sounds like, that's so.
00:11:19:18 - 00:11:38:16
Clark
Funny, like that. That line is like, I mean, for people who like this film that's like, you know, to my friends, to my friends, that's like the you just like that encapsulates this entire film and that one line, you know? So it's funny that you you pulled that out to use right now. Well, I you know I'm curious about that.
00:11:38:16 - 00:12:01:22
Clark
So specifically is talk about Rourke's performance. We're going to kind of jump all over as usual, everybody. So just hang on tight. But, you know, but you mentioned works performance. I mean, so obviously his early work had a big influence on me. And that's why I one of the reasons why I picked Rumble Fish, it's his performance in that film which is so profoundly different than this film.
00:12:02:11 - 00:12:23:18
Clark
He's so reserved and internal and Rumble Fish. And here, like you kind of hinted at, he's kind of almost hamming it up. But. But you feel like it worked right? Did you? Because it is it is definitely like it really walks a tightrope there, right. Where it kind of is a caricature, but somehow the character caricature still works.
00:12:24:15 - 00:12:33:04
Clark
So your impression of that, What were you like when you when you when you first see Mickey Rourke kind of walk and talk on screen, what was your thoughts? I mean.
00:12:33:10 - 00:12:55:09
Cullen
It's just so charming. Like you can't help but kind of think that it establishes the tone of the film very well. And it kind of goes back to how we were describing it, that it's not this depressing slog of like, you know, these people with miserable lives. And I think a lot of that is owing to the fact that Mickey Rourke plays this character who is just so completely content with everything that happens to him.
00:12:55:22 - 00:12:56:03
Clark
Yeah.
00:12:56:04 - 00:13:11:00
Cullen
And like, you know, and he gets into a knife fight with that guy in the apartment and it's like his reaction is like, Oh, uh, I hope he was alive. It's just this great, this great kind of attitude about life.
00:13:11:06 - 00:13:35:21
Clark
Well, and he has heart right? Like the guy. I feel like the role is played in a way where, I mean, I think that even though there's kind of this I mean, I guess, you know, existing really right. For me when I kind of look at this, I'm like, oh, this is such like a this has something so beautiful to say kind of existentially because the film, it's like it just embraces the fact that life is has a lot of suffering in it.
00:13:36:12 - 00:14:04:02
Clark
And but you can still find joy even in that suffering. And it's almost like a Zen like kind of examination of life, this film, because it's like, well, yeah, you know, so, you know, it sucks to have a job. It sucks not to have a job. It's, you know, it's like life is life is just one, you know, kind of bittersweet if you're lucky moment, you know, And then a lot of them are just pure suffering moments.
00:14:04:02 - 00:14:25:19
Clark
But it's like all these little tiny pieces of beauty that the character that Mickey Rourke's character is able to see in spite of all of that, or maybe because of all of that. So it's kind of like, well, yeah, life's suffering, but you can still find joy even in that. And so the character is never like, I'm out like, like fully checked out or like, I'm out of here.
00:14:25:19 - 00:14:40:08
Clark
I don't want to live. I don't there's nothing worth living for. Like, it's never any of that. It's almost kind of like I'm on the outside Looking in life is surreal and crazy. You're all nuts. I'm nuts. But it's kind of funny, isn't it?
00:14:41:00 - 00:14:42:06
Cullen
We're all along for the ride.
00:14:42:06 - 00:14:51:18
Clark
And we're all along for the ride, right? And none of us get out of here alive, right? So, I don't know. I think he did a good job. That's kind of my feeling. On his performance.
00:14:51:18 - 00:15:12:18
Cullen
Yeah. And then, I mean, fade down, and it's. I think it totally plays opposite. Faye Dunaway is performance perfectly because she, I think, plays it not like a character caricature at all. She plays it's super authentic and really grounded and kind of down to earth and more tragic. Yeah, exactly. And yet she still is sad at the same time.
00:15:12:18 - 00:15:55:22
Cullen
Very, very charming and like very, you know, even these characters that have such clearly very deep issues in their lives and things like that are still so enthralling and so fun to just watch. And I think that that's kind of the big thing that and it's such a fine line to walk along. And I think it takes a lot of like, you know, a lot of talent to, to present a movie like this where it can be really tough to to explore these kind of destitute characters that have nothing going for them, that spend all day in a bar drinking and things like that, but at the same time still not make that exhausting to
00:15:55:22 - 00:16:36:23
Cullen
watch and not make that something that's completely, you know, just again, this like, miserable, depressing experience. But to take that and it it is dependent on every single person that's involved, right? Like it's dependent on the director and how they portray the scenes. It's dependent on the actors and how they play the characters. Because again, if Mickey Rourke, I think was playing this less heightened, if he was just playing this and he was just trying to like, you know, authentically do it as as just a kind of a regular guy and didn't have the cadence of Bukowski in that kind of speech pattern that he had and just sort of, you know, played all these
00:16:36:23 - 00:16:41:09
Cullen
moments completely straight to. I don't think it would really work. I think the the movie would would.
00:16:42:07 - 00:16:43:06
Clark
Be locked down.
00:16:43:06 - 00:16:47:13
Cullen
Just it would. It would. Yeah, it would. It would. It would. It just wouldn't work as well, you.
00:16:47:13 - 00:17:11:05
Clark
Know, one of the things you mentioned, Faye Dunaway, you know, I feel like I almost have this fake memory when I first saw the film and I and I had it again most definitely when I saw it. Now I'm almost I'm like, kind of shocked that she took this role. Mm hmm. Like a seriously. So, I mean, obviously, I mean, she's a legend, right?
00:17:11:11 - 00:17:32:06
Clark
You know, ever since, you know, Bonnie and Clyde in 67. Yeah. She's kind of been a legend. And, you know, I mean, yeah, I think in the early seventies, she kind of, you know, had a little bit of a downturn in her career. She didn't have any big hits. But then, you know, before this film, you have what, Chinatown?
00:17:32:06 - 00:17:40:22
Clark
And I think was it 74, you know, Sidney Pollack's three Days of the Condor in 75, which I think was a big hit.
00:17:42:12 - 00:17:45:04
Cullen
And she kind of garnered a network, kind of a disputed.
00:17:45:04 - 00:17:45:22
Clark
That each other.
00:17:45:23 - 00:17:49:01
Cullen
Reputation, right? Yes.
00:17:49:01 - 00:17:53:00
Clark
Yeah. I mean, you've got you've got her like I mean, she's a movie star, dude.
00:17:53:07 - 00:17:53:13
Cullen
Mm hmm.
00:17:53:18 - 00:18:08:16
Clark
Like like bona fide, no holds barred, no question. Like movie star. And I was just kind of surprised to see her in such and such a role. Frankly. I mean, like, pleasantly surprised. That's pretty.
00:18:08:16 - 00:18:24:00
Cullen
Awesome. Yeah, definitely. And again, yeah, there. There was this kind of reputation around her that she was again, it's disputed that she was tough to work with some people she was other people say that that she was just super committed to like that I think.
00:18:24:15 - 00:18:34:06
Clark
What were the stories there? I don't know too much. You know, I don't know too much like from kind of that, like People magazine kind of. Yeah. Rumor stuff. I don't know about her. What is the what are the I.
00:18:34:06 - 00:18:42:05
Cullen
Know I mean, I've heard like John Huston talk about her and say that, like, while she can be a pain in the ass, she's like, the most dedicated, hardworking.
00:18:42:05 - 00:18:44:16
Clark
Well, Houston thought every actor was a pain in the ass.
00:18:44:16 - 00:18:44:20
Cullen
Yes.
00:18:44:23 - 00:18:46:19
Clark
Yeah, that is true. So I don't know how much.
00:18:46:19 - 00:19:05:11
Cullen
Yeah, you basically just described her that. Yeah, You said that she was hard working and that no other actor he'd ever met had put in the amount of work that she she did. Her roles. I mean, it kind of reminds me completely unrelated but like of and I don't know if this is what Faye Dunaway did, but, you know, I know Sigourney Weaver, who is not it doesn't have a reputation of being tough to work with.
00:19:05:11 - 00:19:29:02
Cullen
But I know that she, like, shows up to set with just binders and binders of work, like character work that she's done. Yeah. And so I can imagine that dunaway's the same thing where she's she's just kind of this apparently she was very much of a perfectionist and very involved in the way that she was shot, not in terms of a like, you know, a lot of modern actors say they can't be shot from below the chin or something to hide their double chin or something.
00:19:29:07 - 00:19:40:11
Cullen
Well, she was very, very involved in in like making sure that her character was represented on screen and thought it should be, which is which is neat and well, it's fascinating.
00:19:40:11 - 00:20:11:08
Clark
And and she might have had you know, so there's sort of bring a little bit of that into this film. You know, I think it was an unscripted moment, as I understand it, this that moment where she is in like her apartment building with Henry, Mickey Rourke's character. And and we see a little leg there. And they're kind of I think that was something that she had asked to add or just do something to give her character a little bit of glamor.
00:20:11:15 - 00:20:12:01
Cullen
Yes.
00:20:12:14 - 00:20:35:00
Clark
Because she obviously is dressed so down in this film, made to look so kind of, you know, beaten down. But but Well, I mean, look, as an actor, you know, and this is like I mean, I think every actor who's ever had any amount of success has had you have to deal with this and balance it. It's like you have to manage like you have to.
00:20:35:00 - 00:20:51:06
Clark
I'm trying to figure out the words to say this, like you never know how you're going to be treated on set. Right? And and there's so many moving parts to a film, but at the end of the day, like you're the person in front of the camera, like you're what the audience is going to see if the writing sucks, guess what?
00:20:51:14 - 00:21:09:23
Clark
You look like crap. If the directing sucks, guess what? You look like crap, right? If you're not well, if the DP doesn't do their job and I don't mean lit well as in like a glamor shot. I mean, you know, you're going to not look good, right? If other actors aren't performing well, like you're not going to look good.
00:21:09:23 - 00:21:44:18
Clark
So, I mean, if if you're really on top of your game as an actor, which she clearly was, you have to pay attention to all that stuff. And you can't just leave it to chance. And you can't just always assume that it's going to be taken care of perfectly. So I think, you know, really successful and actors who are really good at their craft understand a lot of the filmmaking process and definitely work to kind of if something doesn't feel like it's being done correctly, they step in and say something about it.
00:21:44:18 - 00:22:10:21
Clark
And I guess, you know, some some other people could perceive that as being a pain to work with. But you have to, you know, that's why you see people like, you know, that's why you know, you see successful duos, you know, like maybe or, you know, actor director combos work together over and over again because once you like, you know, you can actually like trust that, okay, yeah, the film is going to be it's going to be built correctly on Herzog.
00:22:10:21 - 00:22:11:08
Cullen
Nice guy.
00:22:11:18 - 00:22:28:17
Clark
Right? Yeah. And I don't have to worry that you know about all these other things and I can just focus on acting. I don't have to worry if the film is going to be well directed or well lit or whatever. You know, I can trust the other actors are going to be strong. The rest of the cast will be strong, etc., etc., whoever they end up being.
00:22:30:03 - 00:22:43:12
Clark
But anyway, not to digress too much here, but so I always take these rumors of like, Oh, an actor was hard to work with. I mean, especially when they clearly have a lot of great performances. I always take that with the greatest salt and I'm like, Yeah.
00:22:43:19 - 00:22:54:00
Cullen
Well, I mean, it's actually interesting that Ethan Hawke had a really interesting comment on it recently where he talked about how like the method, for example, how a lot of.
00:22:54:00 - 00:22:55:14
Clark
People have complained about.
00:22:55:19 - 00:23:18:02
Cullen
You know, like the method. And he was like, you know, he said that there's there's a level of obviously like any actor is going to do their role the way they see doing their role, the way that they best see doing it right, and that, you know, that you can call Daniel Day-Lewis tough to work with or because, you know, he wants to be called by his character's name or whatever.
00:23:18:11 - 00:23:27:22
Cullen
But at the end of the day, I'm not going to be the one to go tell him to not do that because he's lauded as a fantastic actor. Sure. Right. Like, it's like they're.
00:23:27:22 - 00:23:28:04
Clark
Still.
00:23:28:05 - 00:23:29:06
Cullen
Putting for themselves.
00:23:29:22 - 00:23:53:04
Clark
Well, the proof is in the pudding. And look, you've got be like Daniel Day-Lewis, where every performance is just he knocks it out of the park. Then you get somebody like Jared Leto and tries to do the same type of thing. And the proof is not in the pudding. They're yeah, inconsistent. One could say at best. He has had a couple performances that I think that were pretty good.
00:23:53:04 - 00:24:15:01
Clark
But he's also, you know, the bulk of his performances are not exactly outstanding. And he's another you know, he's another actor that's been, you know, stories, You know, all over the place about his the wackiness that he's done on set. So, yeah, I mean, ultimately the proof is in the pudding. But look, if if if the if the output is there, if the performance is there, hey, whatever gets you there, man.
00:24:15:01 - 00:24:44:05
Clark
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so let's go back a little bit and talk a little bit more about the cinematography, because I know that's something that, you know, it's a major focus for you in kind of like Mickey Rourke's performance for me was I think, the thing that really stood out to me the most, especially when I first saw this film, you know, And I didn't know who Bukowski was at all, by the way, to when I saw this film at like 13 or whatever, I had no idea who the hell he was.
00:24:45:14 - 00:24:46:07
Clark
So I think it was.
00:24:46:19 - 00:24:47:17
Cullen
Rourke's.
00:24:48:02 - 00:24:58:14
Clark
Performance more than anything that really stood out to me. But I know that, you know, cinema orthography is one of the things that sticks out to you at first. Talk to me a little bit about your impressions there. You know, your initial impressions.
00:24:59:07 - 00:25:32:15
Cullen
Yeah. I mean, Robbie Miller, again, is is this cinematographer who who really just has this naturalistic sense but is so good at heightening the kind of in accentuating like the natural look of a space or of just like an image using color or whatever. Yeah, you know, you could so easily make the, you know, the interior of a bar look really, really boring because, you know, bars are usually not the most exciting looking places.
00:25:33:01 - 00:26:04:03
Cullen
Yeah not and yet the, the way that, that they lit you know, whether you've got this like overhead light that just kind of shines this green hue down and all the all the patrons and it like looks like it's making them physically sick almost. And then the interiors of the apartment that are lit. So just beautifully so that they look like almost like portraits, you know, the one shot of Faye Dunaway when it's kind of she's framed within that kind of door, within the room, not the door, but the opening in the wall between the bedroom and the living room.
00:26:04:17 - 00:26:25:08
Cullen
And she's it's kind of perfectly square on that that opening that doorway. And she's just kind of standing right in the middle of it. And it's this long shot and you can see your head to toe and it's just really like it looks like a portrait that you'd see in like a you know, a National Geographic like on some, you know, like portraits of life in Yeah.
00:26:25:10 - 00:26:46:04
Cullen
In downtrodden America or something. Right. And and so he's really, really an exceptional like his framing is always incredibly well done the way that yeah you know frames and image and frames characters and lights them it's really, really serves the story. But it doesn't, you know, over present itself. Interesting thing too is that they actually invented the Kino flow light for this movie.
00:26:46:19 - 00:26:48:03
Clark
Though so know that.
00:26:48:03 - 00:26:56:06
Cullen
Yeah. So the bathroom moments because it was tough to light the two of them and in this tiny little bathroom because of course these were.
00:26:56:07 - 00:26:57:08
Clark
They were shot on location.
00:26:57:12 - 00:27:17:21
Cullen
Yeah. They were real apartments. They weren't set. Yeah. And so they actually invented the Kino flow light, which if you don't work in film, is basically just a more powerful, more consistent and nicer looking fluorescent tube. So it's in the shape of like a fluorescent tube and it can be inserted in those fixtures and things like that. And they're quite commonly found today on film sets.
00:27:17:21 - 00:27:21:20
Cullen
But back then they were, you know, they quite literally invented them for the So.
00:27:22:01 - 00:27:29:18
Clark
Imagine like a bank of like very I think what it used though, I mean they they're of different sizes but like four or five in like a bank.
00:27:30:00 - 00:27:50:06
Cullen
Yes. Yeah. And you can kind of position them. They're not there, they're usually quite thin so that it's like a pretty easy light to position on a ceiling or something like that in a tight space. Yeah, but again, I mean I like that sort of thing too. I like, I like it when a DP is sort of not only doing really great artistry with the images, but also furthering the actual technical side of it.
00:27:51:00 - 00:28:27:02
Clark
That's a wonderful piece. Like, Yeah, yeah, I didn't yeah, I had no idea of that. And, and I just want to add because you'd mentioned it, you know that the, that, the necessity that brought about the invention of the Kino flow was that they were shooting in real bathrooms. And I think I do just want to, you know is it's it's not just how something's framed or how something's lit, but it's the locations that you choose to shoot in that obviously have a huge impact on how a film looks and it's one of the things that especially stands out to me about this film now, having been and actually worked in very close to a
00:28:27:02 - 00:28:51:01
Clark
lot of these locations where they shot down in the kind of MacArthur Park area of Los Angeles is just how like beautiful these locations are that they chose to shoot in. I mean, we're on location in L.A. I think L.A. is such an important part of this film. The same way, you know, Stockton in Fat City was such a vital part of that film and has had they chosen to shoot that in other locations, I just don't think it would have worked anywhere near as well.
00:28:51:01 - 00:29:01:02
Clark
I think the same holds true for this, if you know. But if you know Bukowski, you know, you know that L.A., it would have been vital to shoot here in L.A..
00:29:02:13 - 00:29:31:08
Cullen
And I just think it's such a fascinating not only area, but but the like you said that the, you know, incorporating location and it almost kind of feels like this this like vignette or Tableau of like a time lost. You know, this was made in 1987 and yet it feels very classic in its in its like sensibilities in the locations and it's all these rundown apartments that were likely built in the thirties and forties or twenties.
00:29:31:08 - 00:29:31:15
Clark
Yeah.
00:29:31:16 - 00:29:55:06
Cullen
Yeah. Wise and it like this movie could very easily if you just swapped out some cars and made them you know. Yeah. You know, cars from the thirties. This movie could very easily be set in that era and I think that's intentional. Like this kind of era of this classical novelist who drinks a ton and is like, you know, so indebted into their work that they, they just leave society altogether and become this kind of.
00:29:55:12 - 00:30:12:23
Cullen
Yeah, yeah. As again as the title suggests this barfly. And so I think that that's something that's really fascinating too. And I think the location fits in so well with that because as you described to me earlier, that these locations like MacArthur Park, was a really kind of glamorous, beautiful area. And then it kind of goes down, right?
00:30:12:23 - 00:30:38:16
Clark
It yeah. In the tens, twenties, thirties. Yeah. Like the Westlake, like Westlake MacArthur Park area, which just, you know, for people who aren't super familiar, it's kind of it's a little bit west and north of the downtown town of Los Angeles, which doesn't have much going on now. And it's kind of, you know, south and east of Hollywood, I guess, if those you know, so it's kind of it's it's just a little bit over east from central L.A.
00:30:38:18 - 00:30:41:10
Cullen
So, yeah, it's sort of near silverlake.
00:30:42:17 - 00:30:43:15
Clark
It is south.
00:30:43:15 - 00:30:44:09
Cullen
Side, south of.
00:30:44:21 - 00:31:22:18
Clark
It. It's, it's, it's moved almost mostly directly south of Silverlake, but right, but today it's an area, it's a high crime area, basically. Yeah, there were really beautiful high end luxury apartment buildings or condos that were built here. And that's a lot of that architecture that you see, right. That kind of you can tell that they're used to it, which I think is so beautiful to this film that there's like a royalty in exile feeling almost that there's like, you can sense that there was once something there and now it's been let to rot or it's that time is kind of, you know, is disintegrating these things, which is kind of what's happening to all
00:31:22:18 - 00:31:25:10
Clark
these characters. Right time and drink.
00:31:25:17 - 00:31:27:05
Cullen
Is glamorous excited.
00:31:27:05 - 00:31:48:22
Clark
Yeah and it right but but you can still sense though that there's like there's like this royalty and exile kind of feeling like that. Mickey Rourke, you know, almost has this like, untouchable part about his character that's kind of royalty. And Faye Dunaway most definitely does. Right. And so it's so such a beautiful symbolic use of this of the location.
00:31:49:13 - 00:32:17:23
Clark
But yeah, I think like most of the money is my understanding that people kind of started to migrate WEST right? And so you get Beverly Hills, Brentwood, etc.. So a lot of people who had money who were would have been living in these very expensive locations in their teens, twenties, thirties, maybe forties, they left. And then unfortunately, this area became a very high crime and sadly low income and high poverty level area.
00:32:18:05 - 00:32:18:12
Cullen
Mhm.
00:32:18:18 - 00:32:20:06
Clark
So, so yeah.
00:32:20:06 - 00:32:53:02
Cullen
And I there's, there's just something really I mean I always find a location that is storied and that has history to it, even if it's made up for the movie. But seeing you know, a rundown apartment building that clearly has a lot of history to it is deeply, deeply more interesting than just being presented a you know, world of rubble or like a you know, that there's this kind of this middle ground, like you said, where it's like clearly these these this area was was glamorous back in the day.
00:32:53:02 - 00:33:12:00
Cullen
And the area perfectly encapsulates the people that now live there, which is all these kind of like people who have kind of reached a dead end and just spend their nights in these bars that back, you know, 40 years ago probably had some pretty high profile people coming in to see jazz shows and. Yeah. And so it's it's just deeply fascinating.
00:33:12:00 - 00:33:14:16
Cullen
It's like the people that kind of time left behind, in a way.
00:33:15:01 - 00:33:37:12
Clark
Yeah. And I but at a you know, it's it's such a beautiful use of, you know, like I said, like I think you're kind of hinting at like a world building and, you know, sure. Whether you you use something that's preexisting or you create something like, you know, a movie like Blade Runner, which of course is a film that that created used production design to create such a beautiful world that was so integral to the story.
00:33:38:16 - 00:33:55:02
Clark
You know, it kind of reminds me to, you know, what a kind of reminds me of, like the interiors in this film, which are real interiors. They weren't dressed up as my understanding. So these are part you know, you look at the interiors of these apartment buildings and you're just like, how in the world could anybody live in something like this?
00:33:56:17 - 00:34:12:23
Clark
Sadly, it seems like people really did that. Those were real places. You know, it kind of reminds me of is the interiors in a lot of the interiors, and especially in the beginning of oh oh, oh, oh, come on, Leon. The professional.
00:34:13:04 - 00:34:13:10
Cullen
Yeah.
00:34:13:10 - 00:34:32:09
Clark
Where like Natalie Portman's building. Remember that the like the the texture. It's almost like Luc Besson was like trying to recreate almost, you know, I could imagine, like, the texture in this film and the interiors in this film. I don't know. That just, like, jumped out at me. I was like, Gosh, that's another film that the texture seems so similar.
00:34:32:15 - 00:34:33:15
Cullen
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:34:22 - 00:34:45:12
Clark
Yeah. So I know, you know, So for somebody who loves Los Angeles and loves Los Angeles history, that was one more thing for me that really jumped out at this film is how L.A. this film feels, you know?
00:34:46:05 - 00:34:57:16
Cullen
Yeah, it's sort of like how when we were doing the, the, The Fly, um, and I said that it's difficult to describe to someone who doesn't live here, but the fly just feels so.
00:34:57:16 - 00:35:01:17
Clark
Toronto Oh, yeah, there was another and enemy or no, what was the.
00:35:01:18 - 00:35:05:01
Cullen
Yeah. Enemy as well. Yeah. And, and or Yeah. Enemy the Geneva Neuf. Yeah.
00:35:05:01 - 00:35:25:18
Clark
Yeah. I think you said the same thing there and I think you know, and that's just something that's like, well hey you know you're obviously you live in Toronto and that speaks to you very personally. I think for people who have a love for Los Angeles or who live in Los Angeles, you know, this film has the potential at least to do the same.
00:35:25:18 - 00:35:49:01
Clark
Even though I don't live in these areas, I have worked in a lot of these areas. But but just in general, yeah, I kind of have this huge affinity for like real L.A. films, you know, that were shot on location and that really accentuate and highlight the city. And yeah, I think I think when I was a kid I probably watched this and I was just like, Whoa, like, what is this world?
00:35:49:01 - 00:35:50:03
Clark
You know, like, so you said.
00:35:50:03 - 00:35:55:09
Cullen
You didn't see it in theaters, you know, So you want to watch it on television? Yep, yep.
00:35:55:09 - 00:36:06:20
Clark
Yep, yep. I watched it. Yep. So I watched it chopped and cropped and, you know, on HBO or something, you know, when I was a kid. But here I am, like living in Missouri. So imagine it's like I'm, you know, through.
00:36:06:20 - 00:36:07:18
Cullen
Mystical land out.
00:36:07:18 - 00:36:31:12
Clark
West, yet I'm like living in Missouri and I'm like suburban, you know, and, you know, Tract house. I mean, just imagine the most suburban, homogenous environment you can possibly imagine. And then, you know, a movie like this pops up and I'm like, what? You know, my little brain is like, what? What is this world? Who are these people?
00:36:31:12 - 00:37:05:18
Clark
You know? And it's just mesmerizing, you know, to kind of see such a radically different way of living and thinking and existing, you know, which was something that I feel like I really got. You know, I looked for that so much in in films or from films when I was a kid. And I think that's that's exactly why because my real life was so homogenous and safe that to get to experience other ways of existing and other places, this was like my window into that, you know?
00:37:05:18 - 00:37:17:10
Cullen
Yeah, yeah. And it's not like even, you know, the movie doesn't explore like, crime or anything like that either. It just kind of I mean, the worst thing that happens in this movie that involves the police is that they steal some corn.
00:37:18:20 - 00:37:38:15
Clark
But which is so crazy. Like, I mean, it's like, how random was that? What? Like, I'm curious, like when you were watching it, you're just like, eh, where the hell does corn grow in L.A.? Like, if that's my friend. That was that was my first thought. I was like, okay, this film's not taking place in the tens the twenties, the thirties, the forties, when there was agriculture in Los Angeles.
00:37:38:22 - 00:37:45:02
Clark
This is taking place at 87. What the hell? What the hell is there a corn patch doing here? Like, you know.
00:37:45:23 - 00:37:48:06
Cullen
This random parking lot corn patch? Yeah.
00:37:49:05 - 00:37:50:04
Clark
Well, I mean.
00:37:50:04 - 00:37:55:19
Cullen
Even just the way that, like, the police respond to that and the paramedics like all of these different characters are just so.
00:37:56:07 - 00:38:02:09
Clark
Oh, the. It's almost me up. Oh, wait, let's. Can we stop? Let's talk like so the paramedics are hysterical, but yeah, and.
00:38:02:09 - 00:38:13:09
Cullen
It's but it doesn't it almost feel like like a it feels kind of like a Seinfeld bit at that point, like in a good way where it's like these these paramedics that keep showing up and when they show up again and he's like, like you.
00:38:13:10 - 00:38:14:09
Clark
Guys always got to see.
00:38:14:10 - 00:38:15:12
Cullen
Shift and the night shift.
00:38:15:18 - 00:38:20:13
Clark
Yeah, the guy's always got it like a cigaret, you know, like that one guy's got sunglasses on, I think, or something.
00:38:20:13 - 00:38:22:16
Cullen
Yeah, right. There's like colors pop to.
00:38:23:09 - 00:38:39:02
Clark
These colors popped and they're just like, they're just it's the same paramedics that come in like three or whatever, two or three times during the film. And it cracks me up and that's why I there is definitely humor and a lot of it in the film, I think.
00:38:39:13 - 00:38:40:17
Cullen
Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
00:38:40:17 - 00:38:55:04
Clark
And that's definitely what and I think you really you hit the nail on the head. You know, the film is clearly not judgmental about its characters and it doesn't look down on their characters and it doesn't have pity. You know, It's not like, oh, you know, these poor characters.
00:38:55:18 - 00:39:08:00
Cullen
Which a lot of movies that deal with kind of this type of poverty these days do. Like I won't, you know, name any names. It's just to, just to, you know, not to speak ill of modern filmmakers, but you can speak.
00:39:08:00 - 00:39:08:13
Clark
Ill go ahead.
00:39:08:16 - 00:39:25:12
Cullen
Yeah, that's true. But I mean, I just noticed that there's like, I guess I'll say one for like, like Nomadland, for example, just because it was so big last year. Yeah. Like that seems to have like just a ton of, like, pity and almost just like, patronize us all.
00:39:25:12 - 00:39:27:18
Clark
I don't think I've seen it. I don't think I've seen that one.
00:39:27:18 - 00:39:38:00
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah. It just kind of deals with poverty in a very like oh my goodness like help these poor people and same with them. There was one that Ron Howard did last year or two at camp or what it was called Hillbilly Elegy, I think.
00:39:38:11 - 00:39:39:21
Clark
Oh, I guess it kind of.
00:39:39:21 - 00:40:01:04
Cullen
Takes this like this just patronizing. Yeah, look at like any poverty and whereas this to me this kind of really lines up with what I know about Bukowski's sensibilities, which is if you were to present this life to like an upper middle class or upper class, you know, Beverly Hills, Pacific Palisades type of person and show them this.
00:40:01:04 - 00:40:07:09
Cullen
They be like, horrified. They'd be like, Oh my gosh. And yet Bukowski is like, Yeah, if you don't laugh, you cry. Like.
00:40:07:19 - 00:40:11:04
Clark
Well, and he's like, Hey, I wouldn't take your life if you gave it to me.
00:40:11:04 - 00:40:29:21
Cullen
Exactly Like, it's like, it's like this to me is all. It's one of those things where it's like it's, it's almost like telling a, a, a low end joke at, like, a high class dinner party where you just nobody at the party is going to get it because they just don't you know, they don't look at life that way.
00:40:29:21 - 00:40:42:11
Cullen
Whereas money is like all that's important to them and having, you know, this, this shelter and things like that. Whereas this guy's just kind of like, you know, Henry just has no he's just going to float where he floats and figure out things.
00:40:42:21 - 00:41:09:02
Clark
Well, let's get him right and let's be honest, like, you know. Well, first of all, to I mean, it goes well, maybe it goes without saying. I don't know. I'll say it, though. But, I mean, you know, Bukowski really was an extraordinary writer and especially poet. And it's clear that that he had you know, there was a lot more there than just, you know, somebody who got drunk and got into fights or whatever.
00:41:09:02 - 00:41:44:08
Clark
I mean, nobody can write the way he wrote and not be filled with something really extraordinary. His humanity was huge and that's just because there's just no way. It couldn't be because you read a lot of his writing and it's just some of the most beautiful stuff I've ever read. And I highly recommend you check out his poetry, especially his I think his his novels are worth a read, too, but just especially his poetry is really there are some extraordinary beauty in that, you know, where people are always I guess it's always interesting or people are kind of fascinated.
00:41:44:08 - 00:41:52:09
Clark
That's so much beauty can be. I don't know if hidden it's not hidden is not the right word, but it's almost like.
00:41:52:09 - 00:41:55:01
Cullen
You can like there is beauty to be found everywhere.
00:41:55:05 - 00:42:24:12
Clark
There's beauty to be found everywhere. And I get and somehow people are surprised by that. I don't know why, but but, but so that's part of this story. And I think this is part of this film. And it's, you know, trying to convey that symbolically that the beauty of his poetry, even though his poetry is kind of about, you know, these quote unquote, low life, you know, things or, you know, that day to day life and, you know, living on Skid Row or, you know, being a drunk with no job or whatever.
00:42:24:12 - 00:42:51:07
Clark
But there's still all this beauty and wisdom and heart. But I was just trying to say there's a lot of truth here, too, right? I mean, a lot of like what he says about this film kind of says about life is it may be wrong. You know, maybe they're on to something that, you know, killing yourself 68 hours a week to make some paper.
00:42:51:19 - 00:43:00:03
Clark
Maybe it's not the end all be all of the world. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I, you know, I guess might not get wrong there.
00:43:00:04 - 00:43:15:18
Cullen
There's like there's an element to which so many people when I because I, of course, just got back from that like this three and a half month trip this summer. Yeah. And you know, a lot of people were like, well, why wouldn't you put that money away? And then, you know, you, you could save up and, you know, do it.
00:43:15:18 - 00:43:31:06
Cullen
And it's like I'm not living my life to to slave away in a cubicle for, you know, until I'm 70 and have, you know, maybe ten or 15 years to myself. Like, right, I'm going to I'm going to enjoy the things that I want to enjoy as they come to me. And.
00:43:31:06 - 00:43:54:11
Clark
Well, and you also saw a you know, I'm guessing that you also were exposed to because you again, not to put words in your mouth, but you grew up like middle class, you know, nice, nice, safe place in Canada and Toronto, you know, just like I grew up middle class, nice, safe place in Missouri. You got to see how a lot of different people in a lot of different countries live.
00:43:54:16 - 00:43:55:09
Cullen
Yes. Yeah.
00:43:55:19 - 00:44:13:19
Clark
And a lot of different people in a lot of different countries with a lot less material wealth than we might have in Canada and the United States. Yeah, some of us, certainly not all of us, but, you know, so So yeah, I'm curious, did you did you feel any kind of resonance with that? You know, kind of. Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:44:13:19 - 00:44:42:09
Cullen
I mean, I poverty I think the way that, you know, the western ideal of poverty is very interesting because so often it's almost individual ized in a way. And we're getting very, very philosophical here for a moment. But that's it's always sort of weirdly individualized. Whereas what I noticed overseas was that the kind of you know, if someone was really, really, really poor, they were always still with their family, you know, they were always still living with their family.
00:44:42:09 - 00:45:04:09
Cullen
And they always seemed like there was a lot of just like happiness built into that. And I almost kind of see this as Bukowski kind of linking those two ideas, which is just that like, you know, we have obviously such a, you know, all over the world there's such a, a focus on money and income and things like that.
00:45:04:09 - 00:45:25:09
Cullen
And obviously those things in the system that we live in are important. You can't eat without income, but perhaps, you know, it's it's kind of maybe just a little bit of a un falsifiable hypothesis in a way of saying like, well, what if that didn't matter? You know, like, like take a look at these people who don't have a lot and yet they're completely content with it.
00:45:25:09 - 00:45:30:07
Cullen
And not to say that you should be happy with, you know, getting scraps, but rather that, like you said.
00:45:30:07 - 00:45:32:16
Clark
That there's well, you're not trying to romanticize poverty.
00:45:32:16 - 00:45:33:10
Cullen
Yeah, there's yeah.
00:45:33:10 - 00:45:33:23
Clark
There's you're not trying.
00:45:33:23 - 00:45:36:10
Cullen
To found everywhere and that and that but there's.
00:45:37:12 - 00:46:06:02
Clark
Yeah but I just wanted to add you know because as we kind of talk through some of these things, it kind of makes me think of more, you know, it's I think what what the film is trying to say in some ways maybe. And again, you know, it's like not trying to romanticize alcoholism because that's obviously clearly a very serious disease that affects a lot of people in really horrible ways, not just the sufferers of alcoholism, but the and friends and their communities.
00:46:06:02 - 00:46:34:22
Clark
I mean, that's you know, that's not a joke and that's a serious, real thing. Not that I'm trying to have some disclaimer here. I say there's there's other facets and kind of viewpoints to to look at this through or from, you know, and that is one of them. But that there's kind of it's almost like I mean, I'm just kind of thinking existentially a little bit, which is film kind of makes me do is like it's almost like yes, there's this suffering.
00:46:34:22 - 00:47:03:04
Clark
If we if we take it out of just the literal of like, okay, they're, they're drunks and they're they're living in their lives in bars. But life is kind of suffering and some of us are alienated. But you almost maybe have to kind of embrace that to hold on to your soul. Mm hmm. To keep from so fully selling out that that, you know, I mean, because it's.
00:47:03:04 - 00:47:04:13
Cullen
I mean, hey, I've, uh.
00:47:04:22 - 00:47:22:22
Clark
I've become a suit, you know, too. Because it's because you do have to. There is kind of a decision that has to be made for most of us, unless you're somehow born into wealth. I mean, it's like, you know, I and maybe this is what speaks to me on a personal level where it's, you know, I had to I made a conscious choice at about 30 years of age.
00:47:22:22 - 00:47:53:03
Clark
It's like I had a very comfortable existence. I lived in a nice, like, you know, apartment. And I, I made a good living. I had good insurance. And and I was like, this is this. I feel completely empty inside when it comes to what I'm doing with my life. This is miserable. There's no purpose here. I'm dying on the inside, even though I have all of these wonderful things externally, you know, But like this fun sports car, convertible, whatever.
00:47:53:03 - 00:48:21:06
Clark
Right? There's like, what I'm spending my life doing. This is just and it's not that I was doing something horrible, right? It was just not a match for me. It wasn't a fit for me. And I made the conscious choice. I'm going to do something where it's extremely unlikely I'm going to make a good living at it, but I am willing to risk being destitute, you know, and really struggling financially in order to pursue something I actually care about.
00:48:21:07 - 00:48:21:22
Cullen
Yeah.
00:48:21:22 - 00:48:38:08
Clark
And I think that's that's that's definitely one of these underlying threads, which is like and I think that's part of Bukowski's life too, which is that, you know, look, I'm here to write and I want my time to write. I don't want to, you know.
00:48:38:16 - 00:48:40:02
Cullen
Where I do that. I don't care.
00:48:40:05 - 00:48:58:14
Clark
And I don't want to work a 9 to 5 job and I don't care about cars and name brand clothes and a fancy house and all this kind of stuff I want to write and I'm willing to pay for that time to write by forgoing all these other things because they don't mean anything to me anyway. Yeah, So I don't know.
00:48:58:14 - 00:48:59:11
Clark
I understand that.
00:48:59:14 - 00:49:20:11
Cullen
Well, I mean, it's the value goes back to the, the, the, the kind of idea of traveling to where it's like I met the two sides of that coin while I was away, where there was some people who it's like, oh, yeah, you know, I take two weeks of the year to travel and then I'm like, hard at work, you know, business, venture capitalists and things like that.
00:49:20:11 - 00:49:34:14
Cullen
They're all like, Yeah, you know, I do that and then I come travel and like, that's my routine. Whereas on the other hand, you have people who to literally just it's like, hey, I do odd jobs where I am and make enough money to get to the next place. Yeah. And it's it's like they're.
00:49:34:14 - 00:49:35:17
Clark
All you either.
00:49:35:20 - 00:50:00:16
Cullen
Those people always seem much more relaxed and much more happy with their lives. I mean, you know, like, I know people who work decades at places and they get laid off and it's like, yeah, you were just a number at this company. It's and what, what now, Right. What what do you do? And so I've never exactly I mean, I sort of made a similar decision, not that I was in a place of, you know, I didn't have like a a great job or anything.
00:50:00:16 - 00:50:37:02
Cullen
But when I was at school I went to U of T for a year and was doing fine and was enjoying classes in a kind of academic sense. But I also had to make the decision to myself where I was like, Do I want to spend four years doing this, spending money to do this, you know, and get a job that I can get with a degree that I will never enjoy just to make sure that I have like a steady income or do I want to actually pursue the thing that that I believe will make me happy?
00:50:37:02 - 00:51:07:20
Cullen
You know, it's kind of the quantity versus quality idea, right? Like, I would rather live ten really, really happy years of my life and then disappear. You know, I'm saying I'm not going to say die, but but, you know, like in terms of this hypothetical question versus spend 80 years kind of, you know, like you said, slaving away and in a 9 to 5 and hoping that by the time I graduate, by the time I retire, I have enough money put aside to actually do things that I enjoy money or energy to write or even.
00:51:07:20 - 00:51:11:21
Cullen
Yeah. How many people die over their deaths from a heart attack at 55?
00:51:11:21 - 00:51:33:13
Clark
And it's like, right, Yeah. You know, none of us, none of us is guaranteed any amount of time or any comfort or anything else, regardless of what you have. And so to put all your eggs in the basket of security, you might be sadly surprised that that even when you do put all your eggs in that security basket, you still don't have it.
00:51:33:20 - 00:51:55:09
Clark
Yeah, life is fragile and life always involves suffering. And it's your choice to either embrace it or try to run away from it. But I don't think you can outrun it. But on that note. On that happy note, yes, life is suffering, know, but life is suffering. But that doesn't mean that you can't still find joy even in that.
00:51:55:19 - 00:52:26:04
Clark
All right. Well, Cullen, thanks again, as always, man, for a wonderful conversation. I really am. I'm happy that you like the film, man. That always makes me happy. I'm glad that you enjoyed it. I'm glad that I was able to share one of my favorites from my childhood with you and hopefully with our listeners here. If you've not watched it and you've somehow still made it to the end of this hour long podcast and it and you've not watched it, it's still very well worth watching, even after having heard a lot about it from us.
00:52:26:04 - 00:52:39:01
Clark
Yeah, because it because plot there's not like there's any spoilers for this. Yes there's no plot so there's no it's spoiler it's it is spoiler proof which is fantastic. All right well until next time, everybody. Thank you so much, Colin. Thank you.
00:52:39:11 - 00:52:40:02
Cullen
Thank you. Yeah.
00:52:40:12 - 00:52:44:06
Clark
Take care, everybody. Until next time. Bye bye.