Cullen
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Soldiers, sort of a podcast. Episode 55. I'm your usual host Cullen, along with my unusual host, Clark Coffey. How are you doing?
00:00:24:08 - 00:00:32:11
Clark
I'm doing awesome. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Did I hear you correctly? Did you say that you're the usual host and I'm an unusual host? Or did you say you were both unusual? Wait, I'm.
00:00:32:12 - 00:00:33:16
Cullen
Usual. You're here.
00:00:34:00 - 00:00:46:17
Clark
I gotcha. Okay. All right, fair enough. You know, look, I've. It wouldn't be the first time I've been called unusual. I. Can I take it as a compliment from now on? So. So you bring it. Bring it. I'll take it.
00:00:48:02 - 00:00:51:17
Cullen
Yeah. So? So as I said, we're doing, we're doing the OR. I don't think I mentioned the deer.
00:00:51:19 - 00:00:52:18
Clark
You didn't think I did that.
00:00:52:18 - 00:00:59:06
Cullen
Actually in five. But we are doing the deer Hunter Spoiler alert. The boiler alert from 1978.
00:00:59:08 - 00:01:08:16
Clark
Yeah. If you haven't seen this film yet from 1978, then stop this podcast immediately and go watch it. There's going to be spoilers ahead for a.
00:01:08:16 - 00:01:10:06
Cullen
40 plus year old movie. 40?
00:01:11:03 - 00:01:23:00
Clark
Yeah. Oh my gosh. I feel so. I feel. I feel so old. Man, This this film came out when I was two. Obviously, I did not see this movie in the theater when it came out because we're at the.
00:01:23:00 - 00:01:24:23
Cullen
Big Camino fan. When you were two years old.
00:01:25:07 - 00:01:30:20
Clark
My aforementioned age of two. But yeah, it makes me feel old. You're like, Have you.
00:01:30:20 - 00:01:32:13
Cullen
Ever gotten the chance to see it in theaters or No.
00:01:32:19 - 00:01:51:14
Clark
No, I haven't. I haven't seen it. It would be fine. I mean, this is a film that I might expect that somebody like Quentin might show at his New Beverly, and he may have. And I just don't know about it. But yeah, I'd love to see that, especially if it were actually projected on 35 millimeter film. I'd love to see it.
00:01:51:14 - 00:01:54:05
Clark
Yeah. I mean, I son cinematography.
00:01:54:05 - 00:01:54:10
Cullen
Yeah.
00:01:54:16 - 00:02:06:20
Clark
Yeah. I would take almost any excuse to see I think jeez I, I just love seeing films in a theater period. So you know, it has to be a pretty crappy film for me to not want to see it.
00:02:07:11 - 00:02:13:14
Cullen
And I guess I'm curious to know what, what prompted you to choose this? Well, what was your. Yeah. Choice. Really?
00:02:13:20 - 00:02:36:20
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. So. So let me explain a little bit about why I chose it, but I want to hear your experience. Oh, sure. In this film first, though. But that's because. Because I don't want to tape like what you kind of share with me. Because this is the first time you've ever seen this film. So as as we've kind of done in the past, I'm always curious to it to kind of see the film again through a younger set of eyes.
00:02:36:20 - 00:03:04:20
Clark
A different generation is always interesting to me, but before we do that, so the reason that I picked it so, you know, when I was when I was kind of a young, flourishing, you know, cinephile, you know, I was like in my teens, this was one of the films that was kind of like canon, right? It was like if you were if you were kind of reading about films, if you were studying films, you were inevitably going to see this film mentioned.
00:03:06:14 - 00:03:27:08
Clark
It's, you know, and so I had watched this as kind of I'm sure that I read it. It on VHS was probably the first time that I watched it. So, you know, here I am watching it in your pan and scan on a VHS tape. So sadly, the presentation was probably not all that great and left and left a lot to be lacking.
00:03:27:08 - 00:03:51:20
Clark
But but the thing that really stood out to me, I can't remember a ton of that original viewing, which was probably when I was somewhere between 18 and 21 years of age. I don't remember exactly maybe a little younger, but around there. And the thing that really stuck out to me was, was the emotional intensity of parts of that film.
00:03:51:20 - 00:04:16:06
Clark
And we're going to talk about those. But the Russian roulette scenes, you know, the P.O.W. stuff. So I had this extremely strong emotional imprint that I still you know, if somebody were to say Deer Hunter, I would have today, I'd be like, whoa, emotionally intense, you know? I mean, I like I could almost, like, feel that from the experience that I had all those years ago when I first watched the film as a young kid.
00:04:17:03 - 00:04:38:11
Clark
So I had this kind of emotional imprint, but I couldn't remember too much else about the film. Again, 20 plus years since I've seen it. So so I, you know, I, I, it was just it kind of I just had this flash, you know, when it was time for me to pick, I was like, you know, I have this really strong emotional imprint still from this film, from that old viewing, but I can't really remember much about the film.
00:04:38:11 - 00:04:57:01
Clark
I don't remember what actually happens. I only remembered like half the cast, you know, I was like, Well, I remember walk in and and De Niro's in it, but I can't remember anything. I history, maybe I remembered, was in it. So I thought it'll be interesting to re-experience this film all these years later and then also get to see what your thoughts are on it.
00:04:57:01 - 00:05:05:21
Clark
So that was kind of my overall reasoning was like had this strong emotional imprint, couldn't remember anything else, was curious to see how it would play today.
00:05:07:02 - 00:05:16:17
Cullen
Yeah, I mean, so for me it was it was interesting because as you said, it's kind of like in the canon of like movies, you know, like American movies. It's it's very.
00:05:16:22 - 00:05:17:15
Clark
It's a new it's.
00:05:17:15 - 00:05:26:07
Cullen
A very famous movie. And it's yeah, you know, everyone knows the Russian roulette scene or things like that. And it's referenced in a lot of other movies and video games. And, you know.
00:05:26:18 - 00:05:28:16
Clark
That had a major impact. Yeah. So.
00:05:29:00 - 00:05:32:10
Cullen
So it's not like I was going into this for the first time, you know, with.
00:05:32:10 - 00:05:33:14
Clark
No knowing what it.
00:05:33:14 - 00:05:55:15
Cullen
Was. Right. I knew enough about it that I, you know, kind of knew vaguely what to expect, but it did, you know, throw some curveballs. So I think one thing that really surprised me was a how little of it is actually in Vietnam. I mean, I say little, but it's still like a good hour of the movie. But but in a three hour movie, you kind of expect that.
00:05:55:19 - 00:06:02:21
Cullen
Yeah. You know, the center, you know, the big kind of chunk of the majority of the movie to be in Vietnam. And did.
00:06:02:21 - 00:06:06:17
Clark
You kind of expect it to be more traditionally a war movie like it's going to.
00:06:06:18 - 00:06:25:04
Cullen
Be? Yeah, I expected something more along the lines of, you know, a platoon or a full metal jacket or something like that or, you know, not necessarily Apocalypse Now, because that one, of course, is while it's a war movie, it's it's much more than, you know, just a just a war movie. But I expected something a little bit, I guess, more traditional.
00:06:25:12 - 00:06:47:00
Cullen
Yeah. Whereas what I, I think it kind of, you know, that again, just kind of threw me a curveball when I was watching it. Now it's like even in we'll get into this later when we talk a little about the story structure of it. But but, you know, when it cuts to the Vietnam moment, I was like checking my mate thing to make sure I haven't actually skipped ahead because it just kind of throws you into it like, you know, you're they've been there for months and yet now.
00:06:47:00 - 00:06:50:00
Clark
How did you watch it? Did you watch it streaming? Did you have physical.
00:06:50:00 - 00:06:52:22
Cullen
Yeah, it was on it's on prime video. I think so.
00:06:53:03 - 00:06:53:11
Clark
Okay.
00:06:53:11 - 00:06:55:01
Cullen
I see the prime video.
00:06:55:07 - 00:07:00:07
Clark
Okay. So you watch and I'm assuming an HD proper. Yeah. Yeah. Aspect ratio. Okay.
00:07:00:07 - 00:07:00:12
Cullen
Yeah.
00:07:01:08 - 00:07:05:14
Clark
So you had it dropped? Yeah. At least you had a decent viewing experience.
00:07:05:14 - 00:07:12:21
Cullen
Well, yeah. And it was. I mean, it was the quality was never like it was, it was actually quite decent in terms because it scanned so well.
00:07:13:09 - 00:07:31:20
Clark
Just to digress a tiny bit, I mean you laugh about it being cropped, but you know, I a lot of times I'll see on streaming that aspect ratios wider than six by nine are actually still grouped into 16 by nine on streaming. I know here in the States, HBO, Max does that a lot with their films. It's extremely frustrating.
00:07:32:08 - 00:07:33:10
Clark
So I was just curious, you know.
00:07:33:10 - 00:07:38:13
Cullen
Yeah, a lot of prime video Too often times I'll see like I remember I was watching Poltergeist a few months ago when you.
00:07:38:13 - 00:07:39:00
Clark
Can always.
00:07:39:00 - 00:07:42:20
Cullen
Tell. The weirdest thing about it was that the credits were in the proper 235.
00:07:43:01 - 00:07:43:10
Clark
And then.
00:07:43:15 - 00:07:59:06
Cullen
You have this whole you can see, you know, the black bars, top and bottom, all that. It's 10 to 35 and then suddenly it cuts into the first scene. And it's and I was like, so you have the, the, you know, 55 skin. But anyway, anyway, um, but yeah, so, so I watched it on prime video and.
00:07:59:15 - 00:08:01:04
Clark
You're like, did it skip? What happened?
00:08:01:15 - 00:08:19:12
Cullen
It was just, it was yeah. I think and I think the, the other thing that's sort of strange is that like while the movie is about this cast of characters, these friends, you don't really get to know all that much about them. You kind of know the basics. You know, that they're workers or they're Russian Orthodox, that the one guy's getting married but you don't like.
00:08:19:12 - 00:08:38:17
Cullen
There's not many moments of of kind of like, you know, fundamentally learning about these characters, which I thought was interesting. I thought that was very different than I expected. And again, ultimately, just the fact that it was it was, you know, not it's not all that much of a Vietnam movie. It's like kind of like Vietnam adjacent in a way.
00:08:38:17 - 00:09:03:18
Cullen
Like, yeah, like, you know, they have this experience of Vietnam, but the larger sections of the film, the you know, two thirds of the film are back in Pennsylvania and Appalachia. And this like kind of I don't know if it's a mining town or if it's just an industry town or steelworks. Yeah, But yeah, So I think that that was that was definitely like the first hour of the film being taking place at a wedding was definitely not, not something I expected.
00:09:03:18 - 00:09:24:20
Cullen
I think that was Yeah, I definitely also, you know, I, I wouldn't say that it's a movie that I was like hyped to see if that makes sense. Like it was like there was a lot of like, it's a classic movie. It's seen as a classic movie, but it's not like, you know, it's not like going into The Godfather for the first time and, you know, I didn't know much about it.
00:09:24:20 - 00:09:40:18
Cullen
I hadn't really spoken to a lot of people about it. So it definitely kind of went in knowing what the movie was about, vaguely. But also not really, you know, there was no preconceived opinion on it. I had no idea whether I would like it or I would rather I just like it. And I think I landed, you know, I liked it.
00:09:40:23 - 00:09:58:03
Cullen
I think I landed some work, sort of like maybe three quarters of the middle way, you know, where it was like lots of things that I sort of questioned about it. But also, you know, I made it through a three hour movie and didn't ever check my watch or my phone or whatever. So, you know, sometimes it was good.
00:09:58:16 - 00:10:11:16
Cullen
And I and of course, you know, you've got these really, really incredible performances as well. Yeah. You know, John Gonzalez, one of my favorite actors. You've got De Niro, you've got Meryl Streep, Christopher Walken. So you have a really, really.
00:10:12:05 - 00:10:13:06
Clark
John Savage, who.
00:10:13:06 - 00:10:32:03
Cullen
Did Savage as well. Yeah. You got this really, really incredible cast of of characters and of actors that were kind of like, you know, with exception to maybe Meryl Streep all kind of in there. They're like golden age and especially with Jack is Ali, who passed away not long after shooting this.
00:10:32:16 - 00:10:32:18
Clark
In.
00:10:33:10 - 00:10:33:15
Cullen
His.
00:10:33:15 - 00:10:34:09
Clark
Last film.
00:10:34:13 - 00:10:52:09
Cullen
Yeah. You really you really get this this kind of incredible sense And it's it's interesting seeing John because Ali in this with Robert De Niro, of course, because they were both in The Godfather, but with Godfather two. But yes, you know, didn't share any screen time, sort of like our last film Heat, where you had Pacino and De Niro in the same movie, but they never actually shared anything.
00:10:52:09 - 00:10:54:15
Clark
That's true. Yeah. Connection there. Yeah.
00:10:54:23 - 00:11:07:05
Cullen
So, yeah, I think I think that, you know as we get into the details, I think that will have some interesting conversations because I definitely didn't know what to like. I subverted my expectations in a lot more ways than I expected.
00:11:07:09 - 00:11:28:04
Clark
Okay, that's interesting. And just in the most simplest of terms, because you've not you've kind of shared how you were a little bit surprised at the structure. So I just to kind of I mean, did you enjoy watching the film just from a purely audience perspective? Like what was your what was your experience in that sense? Just as a just as an audience, you know, you're like not analyzing it.
00:11:28:04 - 00:11:31:06
Clark
You're not looking to deconstruct it. What was that like for you?
00:11:31:22 - 00:11:57:07
Cullen
Yeah, I mean, it's a really I mean, it's almost Sigmund, so it looks really good. Um, you know, the the performances are great, as we've spoken about before, I'm not really one to, like, care about the nitty gritty plot details, Right. Yeah. And so so I think, you know, I definitely would say that I enjoy it like I would it would be a movie that I would come out of the theater had I seen it, you know, when it came out and and sort of say, you know, I would give my recommendation to see it.
00:11:57:07 - 00:12:06:18
Cullen
I wouldn't give a glowing like raving. You know, you have to say, okay, really. But but I think that it was definitely a film that that, you know, it's a good movie, but I think that's the easiest way.
00:12:06:18 - 00:12:33:02
Clark
But do you feel like, you know, because it's you know, you say it's you know, it's Vietnam adjacent and I and I would agree, but it's an important part of the film. Do you feel like it being kind of U.S. centric and kind of, you know, Vietnam centric? Do you feel like that has any impact at all? Do you feel like it translates pretty directly, or do you feel like some of that might be, you know, remove you a little bit from it?
00:12:33:02 - 00:12:33:20
Clark
I mean, I.
00:12:33:20 - 00:12:51:10
Cullen
Mean, I don't I so I think that the interesting thing about it is that it doesn't do it uses the Vietnam to analyze the the the you know impact on these people in their lives and their relationships, things like that. But it doesn't really do much to actually analyze the war itself, which so it.
00:12:51:10 - 00:12:51:22
Clark
Could just be.
00:12:51:22 - 00:13:09:09
Cullen
Any of any other. Yeah, it could really ultimately and I also found myself watching it that as soon as it went to Vietnam, I was like, you know what? I was really interested in this, this kind of little mining town, like I was really kind of invested in that aspect. And I almost found myself, like, wanting to go back to that.
00:13:09:09 - 00:13:27:11
Cullen
Like I oh, I weirdly enough thought that the Vietnam stuff was the stuff that I was the least interested in in the whole movie. I thought that the the esthetic and the location and the just the dynamic of that town was so interesting and kind of rich and detailed like, you know, you had all these, like, just funny little things like the trucks and the they're always racing.
00:13:27:11 - 00:13:46:07
Cullen
There's these kind of like faceless trucks that are flying through the town at all times. It's one of the first things you see in the movie is this truck barreling in. You almost think it's brakes are broken or something because it's going too fast. Yeah, but and then you see that they interact with these trucks and that they all work at a steel mill and that they go out hunting into the mountains, which I don't drink.
00:13:46:07 - 00:14:10:17
Cullen
That's what the Appalachian Mountains look like. But, uh, you know, it's, I thought and just their relationship with their, the like the mothers and the other people in the town, this bar that they're at. Yeah. Like, I almost felt like it would have been perhaps a more interesting movie to focus on on that. And maybe you have of course, that would fundamentally alter what the movie is.
00:14:11:06 - 00:14:21:06
Cullen
But I think that that was like something that I really was fascinated with. And yeah, I think that that was really unique and it almost felt sort of disjointed from the Vietnam part.
00:14:21:18 - 00:14:57:12
Clark
Well, there's yeah, I mean, there's certainly not many films, you know, especially American Hollywood studio films that would have ever spent an hour plus on a wedding. Mm hmm. You know, and and you notice there are these long sections without any dialog whatsoever, or it's kind of just, you know, aside from maybe, you know, some characters kind of just talking to each other very briefly, you know, I mean, but there's not really dialog and there's certainly not dialog that that propels any kind of plot at all, you know, So it's almost like in a it's like almost feels like a documentary, right?
00:14:57:12 - 00:15:32:00
Clark
It's like you're watching these people at work and you're watching the mechanization of the steel mill. You know, now you're now you're like with them, you know, at the bar and you're seeing their camaraderie and and how their kind of relationships are through the way that they act and speak to each other at a bar. And you're kind of get a sense of the town and then you're at the wedding and you get a sense of who these people are and what their ancestry is and their family history is, and all of these kind of things through their music, through their dance, through the way that they they celebrate together.
00:15:32:09 - 00:15:38:11
Clark
I think it's very interesting. I mean, it's it's just rare to find a film that would take an hour to do that.
00:15:38:11 - 00:16:01:06
Cullen
Yeah. And and I, as I said, like, that was kind of my favorite part about it. Like I yeah, I was kind of sitting there really enjoying their dynamic when they're, when they stop the car and they're on the hunting trip and they're all having that conversation. Yeah. You know, Don Jong, as Alice starts calling Robert De Niro gay and all this, like, like it was just a really, I think, fascinating relationship between these these people.
00:16:01:06 - 00:16:21:19
Cullen
And also, I think a really interesting kind of analysis on like, like class and like middle America at the time. Yeah. And you know, what these these miners do and that their lives really seem to be going nowhere. And I, I think I was more so surprised that it didn't really come back to that. Like it didn't really focus on that.
00:16:21:19 - 00:16:33:23
Cullen
As soon as it went to Vietnam, it was it kind of shifted away from that a little bit. And of course, it's it's of course, like informed by those those opening moments in those little I wouldn't say moments that those opening their opening act. Really.
00:16:33:23 - 00:16:36:09
Clark
Yeah. It's a full act. Yeah.
00:16:36:09 - 00:17:06:05
Cullen
And it's like in that kind of ghost that that carries through but, but carries through to a much less extent I think than I expected. You know, even when they return back home, the the relationships between these characters more or less kind of resume like you know, Robert De Niro's character in the opening is is this kind of mysterious, not necessarily short tempered, but definitely doesn't take kind of, you know, crap from anybody, kind of like a little.
00:17:06:05 - 00:17:08:08
Clark
Impulsive, little inquisitive, sort.
00:17:08:08 - 00:17:28:03
Cullen
Of like back and and is ultimately sort of seems very similar to that. And then the only real difference other than like some subtleties are the, you know, the fact that he doesn't kill the deer. Of course he lets the deer go. But like his relationship with Meryl Streep, for example, who of course, is going to get married to John Savage's character when he.
00:17:28:03 - 00:17:38:00
Cullen
No, no, sorry, Christopher Walken's character. Yes. When he was supposed to return. But, you know, Streep and De Niro sort of in the opening have this kind of like.
00:17:38:02 - 00:17:38:16
Clark
Well, they play.
00:17:38:18 - 00:17:39:20
Cullen
This back and forth. Right?
00:17:40:07 - 00:18:04:01
Clark
There's kind of like a little bit of a love triangle, if you will, that's set up in that first act. Of course, Walken remains in Vietnam. We can kind of get to some of that. It's, you know, as an offshoot of roulette. But he stays in Vietnam, doesn't come back. And so then you have this kind of weird, hesitant, halfway kind of relationship with Streep's character in De Niro's character.
00:18:04:03 - 00:18:19:21
Clark
It's not ever really fulfilled. But, you know, there's definitely it's I think it's used to illustrate a distance that kind of exists in De Niro's character, just emotionally, where he's emotionally distant to the entire town when he comes back, right?
00:18:19:21 - 00:18:22:13
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. This is Welcome back party thing.
00:18:22:16 - 00:18:42:21
Clark
Serves to kind of show his maybe his alienation from, you know, from this experience that he's had that's kind of maybe pushed him even a little further away from what he used to know. And for all those people who don't have these experiences that he went to now, which of course was, you know, definitely something that was in the the cultural conscience of this country at that time.
00:18:42:21 - 00:18:49:09
Clark
Very much so. Was that experience that that veterans were having when they would return to the country?
00:18:49:12 - 00:18:50:16
Cullen
Yeah, there's alienation.
00:18:50:16 - 00:19:18:20
Clark
Alienation and even hostility they might sometimes feel from some parts of our of of American culture here and there. But even even regardless of that, just how that experience of combat and what they experienced, it just can have the potential to really isolate you or have an isolating feeling, you know, from from other people. Yeah. I mean, so so I have to agree with you.
00:19:18:20 - 00:19:42:14
Clark
You know, when I when I watched the film, I was surprised. I didn't remember or that that whole first hour that that whole first act was, in effect, a wedding. I mean, that's you know, there's a little bit but I mean, it's almost and I was really surprised by that. And and it really got me thinking about, you know, contrasting a film like this from the seventies and a film of today.
00:19:43:01 - 00:20:06:15
Clark
And you'd also talked about, you know, the editing where you were like, wow, you know, from that first act, there was just this like, jump cut into, I'm in Vietnam, and I'm like, What is going on? You know? And De Niro's character is laying on the ground and it's hard to kind of pick up what's actually happening. You almost thought the film had kind of, you know, you'd missed something like maybe it you know, like it missed a section or something in the stream.
00:20:07:18 - 00:20:11:16
Clark
Well, the film won Academy Award for Best editing.
00:20:11:20 - 00:20:12:04
Cullen
Yeah.
00:20:13:06 - 00:20:34:15
Clark
I'm kind of curious. It won best picture, you know, So obviously at the time, this pacing and this editing, this story technique was was lauded at the time, right? It was people were obviously really spoke to that audience of that era. I'm curious, like, what do you what do you think? I mean, it's kind of interesting to contrast this film, right?
00:20:34:15 - 00:21:15:12
Clark
It's a that it's a three hour film. B, that it takes so much time to do to kind of just, I want to say, almost luxuriate in these moments of character or these moments of like showing the the relationships of the town and the texture of the people in the town and through their jobs, through the bar, through the wedding, even we're even when we are in Vietnam, we don't see we don't spend a lot of time in a lot of different places, almost the entirety of that second act where you're in the bar I mean, in the bar in the in Vietnam is in that little P.O.W., that small P.O.W. camp.
00:21:15:12 - 00:21:25:18
Clark
It's very claustrophobic. It's very small. The locations are very small. We don't move much. And it's almost the entirety of that section is the Russian roulette game that's being played.
00:21:25:23 - 00:21:36:02
Cullen
And so that that it's weird because it's like you're sort of sitting there, so you watch it and you've got this full hour of these guys. You know, the wedding is kind of doubling as a celebration for they're going away.
00:21:36:02 - 00:21:37:01
Clark
To be out.
00:21:37:07 - 00:21:37:16
Cullen
Here.
00:21:37:17 - 00:21:38:01
Clark
Yeah.
00:21:38:17 - 00:21:46:08
Cullen
And then suddenly you're you're in this village in Vietnam, as you said, tiny arrows on the ground. And then Walken lands.
00:21:46:08 - 00:21:47:08
Clark
Yep. And they meet up.
00:21:47:08 - 00:22:00:10
Cullen
And they meet up and it's like, okay. So clearly months have been by because they don't even really recognize each other that well, but they kind of hug and embrace. Yeah. Like, oh yeah, yeah. There's this, there's this weird thing where it's like, it's like De Niro's one on one with one of these.
00:22:00:10 - 00:22:01:20
Clark
You don't really know what's going on.
00:22:01:20 - 00:22:10:15
Cullen
It's and Yeah, yeah. And then, and then suddenly there's mortars going off and then all of these soldiers run of the woods and it's like Vietnamese soldiers, Viet Cong soldiers.
00:22:10:15 - 00:22:12:14
Clark
Which you don't even know for sure. It's like, yeah.
00:22:12:21 - 00:22:14:08
Cullen
You don't. It doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't say.
00:22:14:13 - 00:22:15:11
Clark
They distance.
00:22:15:23 - 00:22:18:03
Cullen
And they just going to stand and stare at them and then.
00:22:18:03 - 00:22:18:12
Clark
And then.
00:22:18:16 - 00:22:22:22
Cullen
Cut again. And then suddenly we're in this POW camp, this P.O.W. camp and. Yeah, and.
00:22:23:05 - 00:22:23:16
Clark
Their camp.
00:22:23:16 - 00:22:46:06
Cullen
Even that is like, you know, I was sitting there thinking, okay, the way that I expected this film to go was that you have this opening, this, this send off of the characters they go through all this stuff in Vietnam, of course, is a more traditional way to, you know, sure make a film. But but that you see the bulk of the film and then and then the finale of the film is this you know, this Russian roulette scene.
00:22:46:06 - 00:22:59:17
Cullen
But really the Russian roulette scene also begins as soon as they're in the P.O.W. camp. Of course, they're watching two other people do it. But then so then I thought, okay, so they're watching these other two other two people do it and then they're not going to do it until the end. And that's going to be the big finale.
00:22:59:17 - 00:23:19:06
Cullen
But no. And then next thing you know, they're pulled up and they're like, I got to get like, it really, really is structured in a strange way because it's like you're just kind of sitting there going like, Well, I don't know. I was sitting there thinking like, I'm sitting here more trying to catch up. And that's kind of the difficulty I'm having with, with being really, totally invested in it.
00:23:19:16 - 00:23:31:01
Cullen
Yeah, it's like I'm sitting there kind of going like, I don't even know how they got here. I don't know. I don't know what they like. How do they, you know, how do they change? Yeah, because they really you can tell what they've they've definitely changed. Like they're like hardened.
00:23:31:02 - 00:23:31:12
Clark
Yeah.
00:23:31:12 - 00:23:52:15
Cullen
You know, combat, you know, soldiers now and they, you know, they've clearly again been in Vietnam for a while. And so I'm not saying that, you know, traditional storytelling is better or superior anyway, but I think the film could really have used like maybe one scene in between where you actually kind of get a sense of like how these characters changed from.
00:23:52:15 - 00:24:08:00
Clark
It's very interesting, isn't it? I mean, do you think that this is I mean, maybe some of this is an era thing, you know, because it's look, because the film definitely doesn't have a problem taking time to show things, Right. I mean, again, we've gone on and on about how much time it took for, you know, to show the wedding.
00:24:08:05 - 00:24:30:17
Clark
But look how much time it takes to show that Russian roulette game. I mean, it's it's this it's it's the suspense in that is just amazing. I mean, it's really paced. It's really paced out. It's very, very methodical. It really builds and builds and builds and builds. And so the film clearly has no problem taking time, you know, and it's three plus hours long.
00:24:30:17 - 00:24:54:02
Clark
So it's clearly not worried about being long. So it's interesting that these these quote unquote, plot points are just cut out and then you're left as an audience to just fill in the blanks to guess what happened. And I think that would lose probably a large percentage of a modern audience because it's just we don't see that in today's films.
00:24:54:06 - 00:25:18:16
Clark
And I do notice, I think if you watch more films of this era or foreign films as well, I think there's it's more frequently that that a filmmaker will do this and trust that you as an audience, hey, you know, you don't need to see the guy go from the couch to the toilet like, like, you know, you know, like, you know how he got where they got, you know, I don't know.
00:25:18:16 - 00:25:24:20
Clark
I use toilet for that. That's funny. I'm like, I'm just imagining, like, here's a movie about a guy needs to go to the bathroom. What am I in?
00:25:24:20 - 00:25:43:13
Cullen
And we watch him walk all the way. Yeah. So I it's a good question about, like, is it the era? Because, you know, I yeah, I love films from this era like, right. I like a lot of foreign films. And so I think it's, I think for me it's not necessarily my issue isn't necessarily with the even if I don't even if I can call it an issue my.
00:25:43:14 - 00:25:45:05
Clark
Yeah it's just, you know, Right.
00:25:45:12 - 00:26:21:08
Cullen
I don't know. But the thing I noticed is it's just a notice. It's not that it's structured in this way. It's not that it's, you know, it's not that we don't see. But I think weirdly enough for a three hour movie, it it, it seems to I feel like the suspense could be even better fulfilled if if we if we saw more of, you know, what it's like to me, sort of like, you know, if Hitchcock did Psycho and Marion got to the Bates Motel and took a shower immediately, right?
00:26:21:15 - 00:26:25:23
Cullen
Yeah, That's like and it's like, you know, Well, we were you know, it's not that.
00:26:25:23 - 00:26:26:09
Clark
I like.
00:26:26:09 - 00:26:43:10
Cullen
That analogy. It's not necessarily about the plot or the character development or like the story. It's more so that I feel like the scene could be even more effective because I think what what I think threw me off about it is that, again, war changes people. It's a very common theme in a lot of war movies that that war is fundamentally changing people.
00:26:43:15 - 00:26:44:01
Clark
Yeah.
00:26:44:21 - 00:27:03:01
Cullen
So we jump into the scene in Vietnam, in the village, and we know that these characters have changed and, you know, yeah, it's not really that important to see the specific, you know, we don't need to see some guy blowing up in front of the other guy and he's like, Oh, I'm crazy now. Yes, yes, I'm crazy. And that's, you know, we don't necessarily need to see that.
00:27:03:09 - 00:27:21:03
Cullen
I think giving us more time with the characters as they are now would have helped that suspense because you're kind of sitting there going like, hang on, I don't really know what Robert De Niro's been through versus what Walken's been through. Right. Like, so I feel like and we also don't really know, you know, is this the first time that they've seen each other.
00:27:21:05 - 00:27:46:03
Cullen
Yeah. In, in months or have they just kind of it's been like a week. And so I'm not saying that it's like the details of the plot that are necessarily the important part. I think that just that the some of the character development. However I also like on the kind of flip side of that, I sort of think that the the scene of the Russian roulette in the P.O.W. camp is almost less important than when they get back to Saigon and they care.
00:27:46:03 - 00:28:05:21
Cullen
Like, I feel like that the scene in the P.O.W. camp is almost sort of an introduction to what happens after the fact. Well, I can sort of understand on a on a like a fundamental level why, you know, they're kind of like, you know, no, this is just introducing this idea of right Russian roulette that one of the characters will then take to the extreme later on.
00:28:06:02 - 00:28:12:20
Cullen
And of course, De Niro is also, you know, very affected by it because he does the thing as junkies alley later. But yeah.
00:28:13:06 - 00:28:44:03
Clark
Well you know in a way that I'm thinking about it too is you know, if I think about so obviously we're talking about this Russian roulette scene. It's clearly a central, vital symbol, thematic symbol in this film. Right. And, you know, and maybe as as you're talking about how it's clear that this film has excluded a lot of this this the war experience, as it were, that most films would have kept in.
00:28:44:03 - 00:29:06:07
Clark
Right. What happened to these men as they've as they were, you know, landed down the battlefront and as they've experienced their first aspects of battle, etc., etc., all of that is foregone. And maybe an interesting way to think about it, I don't know. I'll posit this hypothesis to you and you tell me what you think is that the Russian roulette scene actually stands in for all of that.
00:29:06:07 - 00:29:30:15
Clark
So the Russian roulette scene is actually a symbol for the dehumanization and violence and kind of the senseless violence almost by chance that you know what I mean? That because because it's like nobody knows if they live or die. And it's almost just luck. You know, a lot of people like if you talk to a lot of soldiers, they're just like, this is like luck that I survived.
00:29:30:15 - 00:30:07:09
Clark
It's not any you know, it's like nothing else because it's like when people are dying to the left and right, it's just luck if you survive or not, you know? And so I almost feel like maybe this this motif of Russian roulette is kind of a stand in for that war experience for these soldiers. And so instead of, you know, kind of traveling with them as they go through, you know, different aspects of, you know, them arriving in country, them, you know, going through their first battles and etc., becoming more hardened, witnessing violence around them, the loss of a friend or etc., etc..
00:30:08:06 - 00:30:10:03
Clark
That's all contained within this scene.
00:30:10:15 - 00:30:13:11
Cullen
Yeah, it represents, yeah, a greater kind of scope.
00:30:13:16 - 00:30:35:18
Clark
And so than and that's revisited, you know, it's like how these characters then are affected by and deal with that violence. They were exposed to that trauma. So you see how you know Savages character is affected by that. Obviously he's he is physically you know I mean he's left almost like what I think he's like loses both his legs and an arm.
00:30:35:18 - 00:30:40:22
Clark
Right. Or something. I mean, so he's he's in a hospital. He's like unable to integrate at all.
00:30:40:22 - 00:30:42:22
Cullen
He doesn't even want to see his wife.
00:30:43:00 - 00:30:59:00
Clark
And his wife is so traumatized she can't even speak. Right. Knowing what has happened to her husband. And having gone through this, you see, walking doesn't come back from Vietnam at all. He and and he's is addicted to that. Like he literally the.
00:30:59:00 - 00:31:00:14
Cullen
Three starts.
00:31:00:14 - 00:31:13:12
Clark
Doing that. Is it Thriller? It's like you don't even know you know, it's like sometimes people relive violence. They're traumatized by not because they want more violence, but because it does something to it makes them.
00:31:14:01 - 00:31:19:20
Cullen
So, yeah, it's like it's like the only way they can feel alive and without any senselessness is is. Yeah.
00:31:20:05 - 00:31:44:03
Clark
And just and you see you know, that De Niro's character is, is, is he's, he's not not affected. He's not not affected. He is also affected but in a different way. And you see that in the remoteness, you know, in his inability to integrate back into the you know, and he sadly, you know, he goes and tries to save Walken's character.
00:31:44:03 - 00:31:54:17
Clark
And there's sadly that Russian roulette scene is kind of plays out again. And this time Walken dies, which is like a really super intense scene, man. I mean, that's one of the most.
00:31:55:09 - 00:31:55:22
Cullen
Who's.
00:31:56:04 - 00:32:14:11
Clark
Like they acting and performances in the scene and some of these I mean it's so gosh, I mean, a little digression here. I mean, it's when you have such emotionally intense scenes cut, it is so easy to to to do that wrong. Yeah. I mean, like and I know you've been there.
00:32:14:11 - 00:32:16:04
Cullen
And as a director or as an actor.
00:32:16:09 - 00:32:35:13
Clark
And I know that you've seen this probably in other projects that you've worked. And Lord knows I have seen this so many times. But I mean, where it's like it's so hard to hit that perfectly. Yeah, it is so difficult to hit this perfectly. And they really do. And that came back to me when I watched this again.
00:32:35:13 - 00:32:54:16
Clark
Was that just that rawness, that emotional intensity is like I feel like as rarely successfully captured on film, the way this film captures that in those few scenes, to me personally, I, I don't know if, if you felt some of that or if that if you could kind of what your experience of that was. But that's how I kind of experience that.
00:32:55:04 - 00:33:22:07
Cullen
Oh, yeah, without a doubt. I mean, I think that's that's one of the reasons that those are the iconic scenes of this film, right? Yeah, Yeah. The the way that they are played out, I would say, is definitely, you know, kind of the I would say that the the first one again with the like I think that that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the actual Russian roulette scene.
00:33:22:14 - 00:33:23:00
Clark
Mm hmm.
00:33:23:00 - 00:33:28:09
Cullen
I think that my Yeah I think the primary thing is that I'm kind of iffy on or the things surrounding it. So I think that this.
00:33:28:12 - 00:33:28:21
Clark
Is such a.
00:33:28:21 - 00:33:30:10
Cullen
Fantastic job of.
00:33:30:10 - 00:33:36:05
Clark
You know, Yeah. Like what stood out to you where you're like, you know, hey, this is, you know, I'm questionable or you said iffy like what?
00:33:36:05 - 00:33:36:20
Cullen
Or I think that.
00:33:36:20 - 00:33:37:19
Clark
There's some critiques of.
00:33:37:19 - 00:34:01:00
Cullen
The film. As I should have said, it was just that I felt like I felt like I wasn't as invested in the scene the first time. Like the first scene when they're playing Russian roulette in the actual camp. Oh, really? I felt like I wasn't as investors. I could have been I was I was certainly invested, but I felt like I could have been more invested had I not been sitting there going like, all right, what's what's what's the give here?
00:34:01:00 - 00:34:12:18
Cullen
You know, what's it like? And yeah, whereas the second one I think I got it is much, you know, I would argue perfect in a way because we have that stuff.
00:34:12:18 - 00:34:13:21
Clark
Gotcha. We know what.
00:34:14:00 - 00:34:33:19
Cullen
DeNiro is going to do, what he wants. We know Walken's character. We saw him in the hospital earlier when he breaks down, so we understand a little bit more about him, you know, And it's you know, it's not about to me again, it's not about plot. Like I said, you know, like like we did The Thin Red Line a while ago now.
00:34:33:19 - 00:34:47:18
Cullen
But, you know, that's a movie that really if you ask someone with that movie's about you can't really give an answer. There's there's not really much plot to that movie and yet you care really deeply about these characters that you don't have a lot of time with either.
00:34:48:04 - 00:34:48:07
Clark
Hmm.
00:34:48:09 - 00:34:49:13
Cullen
Yeah, because there's such.
00:34:49:13 - 00:34:50:03
Clark
An ensemble.
00:34:50:03 - 00:35:21:15
Cullen
Of characters in that. And so I think, you know, to relate that to kind of this, I think that first scene, I think if I just kind of again, because it's like you're because as I said, you know, every war movie discusses which rightfully so, discusses the idea that people change. And I think if I understood just the change that these characters had gone through a little bit better and just kind of got maybe just even like one little moment of of going like, all right, De Niro has been totally screwed up by this or Walken has been like his experience at war has been.
00:35:21:15 - 00:35:41:03
Cullen
And again, we don't need to see like I said, we only just see someone being blown up in front of us like that, but just something to go when they're sitting in those chairs that first time in the in the P.O.W. camp to go like, dang, like this is like I can understand so fundamentally how these people are have been and are being changed by this.
00:35:41:08 - 00:35:52:19
Cullen
Yeah yeah. Which I mean and I'm not saying that it doesn't do that at all by no means yeah I just think that there's there's elements to which I think they could have heightened it and they could have raised those like personal stakes.
00:35:53:02 - 00:36:11:20
Clark
And I can see that for sure. I mean, look, it's not like I didn't experience that like little disconnect as well, You know, I think because, you know, we get look, film is a type of grammar and grammar changes over time to write just like any language. Our language is always changing. You have some words, you know, leave the lexicon.
00:36:11:20 - 00:36:50:06
Clark
New words come into the lexicon and new ways of phrasing and syntax are also kind of morphing and changing. And film cinema is exactly that. It's a language and it has a grammar and it has a syntax and that changes. And I think our expectation that that's set by expectations, you know, Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. If this film were to be made today that I don't think a director would make that choice, I think 999 times out of a thousand or maybe a thousand out of a thousand, you know, but I think it'd be very unlikely that a director would make this change to to to just make a spatial like a geographic,
00:36:50:06 - 00:37:12:13
Clark
spatial and plot jump cut that huge. Yes. I don't I don't think that that would happen today. And I definitely see your point because you're not cut up now. You're with those characters in that bamboo cage in the river. You're you're back here. You're you're like, Whoa, wait a minute. What happened?
00:37:12:13 - 00:37:23:16
Cullen
And especially when you spend an hour, a little bit over an hour with those characters and the start of the film, and then suddenly, suddenly you're with them after such a life changing journey.
00:37:24:07 - 00:37:25:02
Clark
Yeah. And you're.
00:37:25:02 - 00:37:47:04
Cullen
Not. So it's it is kind of. But again, I do also kind of understand the aspect that the function of the P.O.W. scene is very much to represent and introduce this idea to. And, and so I think it's not necessarily I don't think I disagree with any of the like overarching fundamental choices, the film. I think it's more so that I think that there's like tweaks that could be made just to, of course.
00:37:47:05 - 00:37:48:00
Clark
Like not even have to.
00:37:48:15 - 00:37:48:17
Cullen
You.
00:37:48:17 - 00:38:07:13
Clark
Don't even have to qualify it. It's totally it's Yeah, totally appropriate as you know, it's like you're going to have different you're going to bring who you are as a filmmaker or as an audience member or a combination of the two to a film and have different thoughts and opinions. That's okay. Yeah. That doesn't invalidate the other person's choices or anything bound.
00:38:07:13 - 00:38:24:23
Clark
You know, it's what's interesting to kind of break things down and analyze them. I want to talk a little more about that Russian roulette scene, though, because, you know, there was a little bit of controversy. So back when the film was there was actually a couple of pieces of controversy about this film. One of them was specific to the Russian roulette scene in that.
00:38:25:06 - 00:38:49:04
Clark
So a lot of people, when this film was released said, hey, that actually didn't happen. You know, the Vietnamese that the North Vietnamese didn't do this to P.O.W.s. This was not there's like no recorded incidences of P.O.W.s being subjected to having to play Russian roulette. And apparently that was, you know, if you look back in the press at the time, this was a big issue on a lot of journalists and film critics.
00:38:49:04 - 00:39:20:03
Clark
You know, articles about the film. And apparently the director even had to kind of speak to this on a on a few occasions. I'm interested in it because I think it speaks to something that you and I have discussed a few times in this podcast, especially earlier, back when we were focused on Werner Herzog's films. It's this idea of fact and truth of, of of kind of like a literal factual accuracy and an esthetic artistic truth.
00:39:20:03 - 00:39:42:06
Clark
And I think this is a good example possibly of that. What do you think? I mean, especially what we're talking about, this is a this is a film that's that's that set in a like an actual historical event. Right. But the people are fictional, of course. The story itself is fictional. I mean, what are your thoughts not to put you on the spot, but but I'll put you know, I.
00:39:42:06 - 00:40:18:18
Cullen
Mean, I think yeah, I think that's kind of why I mentioned that it's not really analyzing the Vietnam War itself. Right. Because so many movies that do like that are, you know, Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket, Platoon, they all maybe a little bit less so with Platoon. But but actually, it certainly is in Platoon a lot. They all sort of analyze the United States role in the war and they kind of take, you know, a viewpoint of like the atrocities that were committed by the states in Vietnam, whereas this movie doesn't really touch any of that on it.
00:40:18:19 - 00:40:41:03
Cullen
Know none. Yeah, it is a specifically about these guys who are captured and, you know, have these essentially which are war crimes being on them. Right. Right Yeah. So it I think that that's and that's not to say that that's a negative aspect of it. I don't I you know, I'm not really looking into a movie for its politics.
00:40:41:03 - 00:41:01:08
Cullen
I'm looking into a movie for, you know, how it makes me feel. Right. So I don't I don't know if it's necessarily like even the point of the film, right to right to, like you said, to tell like a factual retelling of the Vietnam War the truth about it, or even if it a situation where you're not telling a factual retelling or anything like Apocalypse Now.
00:41:01:15 - 00:41:13:14
Cullen
You know, the the M.O. of Apocalypse Now is an anti-war film. It's it's to to criticize American involvement in Vietnam and it's to criticize.
00:41:13:14 - 00:41:15:04
Clark
Or maybe more in general war.
00:41:15:07 - 00:41:46:19
Cullen
War in general. Exactly where is this? I don't I don't really think that that is the thesis of this film. Yeah, I think the thesis of this film is is about the effect of of any conflict of any traumatic events on these, you know, working class blue collar guys from Pennsylvania. Yeah. So, yeah, I while I understand the, the, you know, the basis of the critique and the controversy, I think that it's I don't really quite think that that's what the movie was trying to say in the first place.
00:41:46:22 - 00:42:08:06
Cullen
Yeah. You know I don't think that it's necessarily something that's all that relevant in a way. I think that it's it's certainly heightening, you know, not to relate this film to like an adventure film, but like, you know, the Nazis weren't digging up the Ark of the Covenant, you know? Well, and that's a greater purpose. Right?
00:42:08:06 - 00:42:29:12
Clark
And that's an interesting point, you know, so that you bring up a very interesting point. In contrast, I think it's worth taking a look at so, you know, another thing that was that was a controversy about this film in addition to the accuracy of Russian roulette. And did the North Vietnamese actually do this to P.O.W.? Was just the representation of the Vietnamese people as a whole period?
00:42:30:01 - 00:42:53:17
Clark
And I would agree with you that I think this film is is not trying to make a specific factual statements about what Vietnam was, what happened in Vietnam. It's it's using symbology, I think, to try to tell tell a different story, which is this is what this is how violence and war can change people and disrupt a community.
00:42:53:17 - 00:43:17:03
Clark
And look at the ripples of that violence and how it can affect a small town, a group of people in a community. But of course, it's, you know, it's like you mentioned Indiana Jones. I don't know, I, I can't recall. And I and I haven't looked into this extensively, but my guess is, is that there wasn't a lot of complaints about the representation of Nazi.
00:43:17:03 - 00:43:17:18
Cullen
Nazism.
00:43:18:01 - 00:43:26:05
Clark
And. Well, no, no. And hold on. And I don't want this to come off wrong. I have not in any way, shape or form comparing Vietnamese to Nazis. That's I.
00:43:26:10 - 00:43:26:20
Cullen
Know that's.
00:43:26:23 - 00:43:49:09
Clark
Clear. That's not my intention at all, because I know that as soon as I said it, I was like, Whoa, that could sound weird. All I'm all I'm saying is that both of these films take place in a real historical event. So World War Two for one, and the Vietnam War, right after post, Vietnam War for the other film one is clearly a fiction.
00:43:49:09 - 00:44:11:09
Clark
You know, it's clearly fictional. It's it's it's a it's like a much lighter adventure film. And so and it has supernatural elements, you know, And I mean, it's like so I don't think anybody's getting confused that this is, you know, Indiana Jones is not an actual, you know, representation of anything real that happened. But I think it might speak to you could think that this was a real thing, right.
00:44:11:09 - 00:44:34:13
Clark
You this this Deer Hunter is represented in such a almost documentary way in some aspects. Right. It's extremely realistic and in some. And so maybe maybe that's part of what that is. You know, where it's like you know, it's it happened you know, this film was released in 78. The Vietnam War is very fresh on the minds of so many people.
00:44:34:13 - 00:44:54:08
Clark
So many people are still reeling from the effects of that, of course, both in Vietnam and here in the United States and elsewhere. So it's it's it's very much it's it's it's close, you know, time wise. And the film is is talking about something so sensitive and so powerful, such profound experience for so many people that had such an impact.
00:44:54:08 - 00:45:04:02
Clark
So I could definitely understand why people would be sensitive to these things in that film and why they might not be for Indiana Jones know.
00:45:04:03 - 00:45:38:22
Cullen
Yeah, I would say honestly, my one major critique of I do have one of the film and again, this isn't really a critique of the filmmaking, but it's that the and I mean the technical like, you know, craftsmanship of the filmmaking, that scene, the opening scene in Vietnam when they're in that, that village. Yeah it almost paints like it's oh it almost again misses this opportunity to explore, you know, the idea of PTSD in a greater light in not I don't mean great in a positive light.
00:45:38:22 - 00:45:40:04
Cullen
I mean greater is in more.
00:45:40:09 - 00:45:41:00
Clark
Significant.
00:45:41:00 - 00:46:08:00
Cullen
Deeper extent that so what we see is we see this this Northern Vietnamese soldier or I guess they are Viet Cong because they have the Viet Cong flag hung up in the the P.O.W. camp. Mm hmm. Putting a grenade in a, you know, bunker filled with with Vietnamese civilians. Right. Whereas what I think the reason that stuck out to me and then we have Robert De Niro trying to save them and he lights them on fire to let that.
00:46:08:06 - 00:46:09:04
Clark
Yeah.
00:46:09:04 - 00:46:37:14
Cullen
The reason I think that stuck out to me and I think didn't really work for me is because another thing that that a lot of films explore, especially contemporary films, but even back then, again, you know, Apocalypse Now does and Platoon does as well, is that a lot of the reason that these guys were coming back so screwed up with PTSD was because of the atrocities that were being committed by by like, they would they would be, you know, the American soldiers that were forced to to massacre civilians and things like that.
00:46:37:14 - 00:47:11:17
Cullen
And you get that whole scene in Apocalypse Now with the Ride of the Valkyries, where they're, you know, there's bombing a village and platoon that that's kind of the huge function of this plot is that there's one character to who kind of is is like this madman who's massacring all these civilians. And so I think that it was missing this opportunity to also add a level of of like significance there where where it kind of like for a second that that that village scene almost turns into just kind of like a like a strange sort of like hero versus villain action scene.
00:47:12:08 - 00:47:28:11
Cullen
Yeah, you've got De Niro on the ground and he's like rushing over with a flamethrower and, you know, it's that guy is so it was kind of it was just kind of one of those things where I was like, definitely. I was not expecting that. And it felt a little bit more two dimensional than the rest of the film.
00:47:28:14 - 00:47:30:03
Cullen
I think that's a good way to put it. Is that it just.
00:47:30:03 - 00:47:41:12
Clark
Yeah, I think it's the weakest part of the film that's from from when we are immediately thrust into Vietnam until the ah, until we're in the P.O.W. camp itself. That's what maybe 5 minutes of film is.
00:47:41:12 - 00:47:42:03
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:42:11 - 00:48:10:16
Clark
That's, it's the weakest 5 minutes of the film, I think by far by a long shot. I would agree with you. It's, it's, it's just, it's disjointed and it, it seems like there's a lot of opportunity that's left on the table like you have. You've already discussed. I would agree. Yeah, I would agree. But I just I think it's interesting, you know, as I think just to go back a little bit to this idea of fact versus, you know, a static truth versus factual truth.
00:48:11:00 - 00:48:34:12
Clark
And then I think it's a it's a it's a question that any artist is confronted with every time you create, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And and it it's it's not always easy. It's not always, you know I think you know matter what's one of the things that I've noticed as an artist I mean you can hold anything that you might want in your heart, right while you're creating something, you can hold something.
00:48:34:12 - 00:49:03:15
Clark
And it's so clear and it's so crystal to you. But then once you release your work out into the world, every single person that sees it is going to is going to have that experience and and potentially an entirely different experience, you know? Yes. Yeah. And it could be so contradictory to what you hold in your heart. And it's hard to sometimes explain to people that, you know, because their experience is their experience, they're like, well, no, I saw I saw this film and film and this is what I experienced.
00:49:03:15 - 00:49:22:04
Clark
And, you know, and you're you could be over here saying, Oh, my gosh, I had the exact opposite thing in my heart when I made this film. So it's it's just definitely can be challenging, especially if you're dealing with sensitive, historic stories, you know, that kind of set in a real history. Yeah.
00:49:22:19 - 00:49:29:21
Cullen
And so I think I guess to to one of the things that we haven't really spoken too much about yet is is the almost segments.
00:49:29:23 - 00:49:30:18
Clark
Oh happy.
00:49:30:20 - 00:49:53:13
Cullen
Yeah. So it was obviously shot on film 5247 which is one of my favorite film stocks and it was shot at anamorphic very you know Yeah. Now that they're those those old C series anamorphic speakers when they're the wedding scene in particular you know you've got when like it's like you really only have like a sliver of of frame that was focus focus like the top the bottom and the sides.
00:49:53:13 - 00:50:11:06
Cullen
You had this huge amount of focus fall off. But I do think, you know, I like that look, I think it's a really interesting look. I like segment. I think that the way that he again presents this town, you know, which is primarily through prose post-processing in a film like it's grainy and it's dull.
00:50:11:06 - 00:50:18:18
Clark
And it's well, I think they underexposed it a couple of stops and then pushed it in right out development Right. If I'm mistaken. That's what it looks like knowing.
00:50:18:18 - 00:50:25:17
Cullen
That because it's super it's like the grain is really, really, really clear. Yeah. And very, very you know, at the forefront of the image.
00:50:26:00 - 00:50:27:08
Clark
And it's very dark.
00:50:27:16 - 00:50:46:06
Cullen
It's I mean, you know, I, I just love again that that those moments in that town in Pennsylvania I think are so like eerily beautiful. Like it kind of makes you feel of like a you know, a little bit like an industrial revolution sort of feel factories that are overlooking whole town. And so I think that that yeah.
00:50:46:06 - 00:50:48:02
Cullen
So I think. SIGMAN did you know as per.
00:50:48:02 - 00:50:49:07
Clark
Usual there's so beautiful.
00:50:49:07 - 00:50:49:19
Cullen
Job.
00:50:49:20 - 00:51:06:07
Clark
And contrast contrasted with those beautiful beautiful landscape that holography where they're hitting the deer is just so I think there's in the commentary they talked about how I think it took it took them about three weeks to shoot all of the deer hunting footage both.
00:51:06:07 - 00:51:06:15
Cullen
Really.
00:51:06:15 - 00:51:13:04
Clark
For and after to get to get everything perfect where they had the clouds low and thick and moving in the background.
00:51:13:04 - 00:51:18:14
Cullen
Yeah, especially at the end when the fog is coming over that mountain behind De Niro as he stalks the deer.
00:51:18:14 - 00:51:33:18
Clark
And they they used trained deers. So this was interesting because I always wonder, I'm like, well, how in the world do you get a deer to pretend that it was shot? Like how in the world? Yeah, that so the way they did that was that says there are such thing as trained deer. So I.
00:51:33:18 - 00:51:34:23
Cullen
Mean even though that deer.
00:51:35:03 - 00:51:55:11
Clark
Are from the time they're born, they're raised by humans so they're not scared of people and they actually tranquilized them. So that's how they actually get the deer to fall, as if it had been shot, was to tranquilize it, and then they they shoot it, you know, kind of falling over and passing out, I guess, for lack of a better term.
00:51:55:16 - 00:51:58:18
Clark
I don't know if that's something that you can do in today's day and age. I don't know.
00:51:58:19 - 00:52:02:08
Cullen
Yeah, I wonder. I don't I dealt with the tranquilizer. You'd probably have to. Yeah.
00:52:02:15 - 00:52:03:16
Clark
Because I mean, I'm interesting though.
00:52:03:16 - 00:52:04:23
Cullen
I had no idea that that but Yeah.
00:52:05:04 - 00:52:14:16
Clark
Yeah, yeah. I had no idea either because I was so curious. I'm like, there is no way in the world that you could get a deer to just fall over. Like, how is that even possible? Yeah, and that's the tranquilizer.
00:52:14:16 - 00:52:26:23
Cullen
I guess they're reindeer then, because they're domesticated. Yeah, but, but it's, but I think that that's also those, those mountain moments which are again very clearly shot in the Rockies or something because that's not really what the Appalachians. Yeah.
00:52:26:23 - 00:52:28:14
Clark
I'm not sure where that was shot. Yeah.
00:52:28:14 - 00:52:53:06
Cullen
But looks like the Rockies at least. But that it I think goes to show you that I think a lot of times people just assume that like it's very easy to shoot beautiful landscapes because the landscape is is the beautiful part and you just point the camera out and you're good. But I've seen, you know, the way that Sigman shoots the the landscapes and this and the way that, you know, you all you have to do is watch, watch them.
00:52:53:07 - 00:53:03:06
Cullen
You know, I can't really think of anything off the top of my head immediately, but I've certainly seen films that are shot in very beautiful locations that don't take advantage of that or don't. Oh, here's a.
00:53:03:21 - 00:53:21:05
Clark
Great here's a really easy way to illustrate this for people. So everybody listening, I'm sure this has happened to you. It's happened to me. You're you're standing in an absolutely gorgeous place with a beautiful landscape view. And you take out your iPhone and you try to take a picture of it and then what does it look like? Crap?
00:53:21:05 - 00:53:21:14
Cullen
Mm hmm.
00:53:21:23 - 00:53:22:08
Clark
I mean.
00:53:22:13 - 00:53:28:06
Cullen
Exactly. And it's not just the camera because, you know, you can get pretty gorgeous images on an iPhone, but.
00:53:28:06 - 00:53:45:17
Clark
Yeah, yeah. No, it's. I just mean that it's you're right. I'm agreeing with you just because you've got a beautiful landscape. Does it mean for a second that that's easy to capture? It is actually. I am actually almost always severely disappointed with my ability to capture the beauty that I see with my eyes with a camera when it comes to landscapes.
00:53:45:17 - 00:53:51:09
Clark
And I have a tremendous amount of respect for cinematographers and directors who are able to actually cast.
00:53:51:12 - 00:53:57:13
Cullen
Which is funny because I think we're sort of the opposite in that I find. So I find it really the shooting people very challenging.
00:53:58:00 - 00:53:58:11
Clark
Yeah.
00:53:59:05 - 00:54:08:06
Cullen
We talked about this before where you know we've talked that Yeah, yeah I like I like landscapes are like I'm a really big fan of Monet and so I love like these, like sweeping vistas.
00:54:08:06 - 00:54:27:18
Clark
And it even affects the lens choices that we usually like to work with. I tend to work with a little bit longer lenses. I like to get in people's faces and you tend to use much wider lenses and kind of de-emphasize a focus on an actor's face and get kind of more of a sense of like space where you're at.
00:54:28:14 - 00:54:35:06
Clark
It's interesting, huh? Yeah. But I always disappoint myself when I try to get an amazing landscape that seems very tough.
00:54:35:06 - 00:54:54:20
Cullen
It's it's it's not easy. I mean, it's like, I think that's the mistake, right? That assuming that the landscape will look good no matter what. And then and then, you know, again, like you said, you look at the image on your phone and you're like that looks like crap. But but yeah, I think SIGMA'S really, you know, he's great at that.
00:54:54:20 - 00:55:04:18
Cullen
Even just the the scene when De Niro is chasing walking in the car after he sees him in Saigon and he's running after the car. When he's in the car with the Frenchman, it's like.
00:55:05:04 - 00:55:08:13
Clark
Not not when he's running after the car, when he's naked, right? No, no, no.
00:55:09:00 - 00:55:28:09
Cullen
These like neon, you know, like lights that line the street. And you've got that tungsten film. So everything's sort of got this blue. Like all the lights sort of have this blue tinge to them. And, you know, I think that there's a reason that he's he's a legendary cinematographer. He did two of Spielberg's movies. And did, you know, a lot of a lot of classics.
00:55:28:09 - 00:55:28:18
Cullen
So.
00:55:29:11 - 00:55:37:01
Clark
Yeah, he's one of the best, there's no question. Yeah, we haven't talked about any of his films here, although we might.
00:55:37:01 - 00:55:40:02
Cullen
But we did one. We did talk about that long Goodbye.
00:55:40:12 - 00:55:50:23
Clark
Oh, that's right, that's right, We did long Goodbye. But I mean, it's, you know, McCabe and Miss Miller, we've got, you know, Sugarland Express, Close Encounters of the Third Kind Blow Out, which is one of my favorite films.
00:55:50:23 - 00:55:51:15
Cullen
Well, it's great.
00:55:51:15 - 00:56:04:17
Clark
Yeah. I mean, yeah, he's done some. I mean, his filmography is quite impressive. There's no question. One of the best cinematographers to ever, ever, ever hold the position. There's no no doubt.
00:56:05:01 - 00:56:05:20
Cullen
Yes. Yeah.
00:56:06:02 - 00:56:39:21
Clark
That and a pivotal figure in American kind of new wave of cinema at that time, for sure. Wow, man. I mean, what you know, something we had we hadn't talked at all about music, about the score. But but, you know, you and I had talked about this briefly. And it's interesting, the music that stands out to me most in this film is not any kind of score, but is in, you know, whether it's the the kind of the Russian folk music that's so prominent and prevalent in the wedding.
00:56:40:20 - 00:57:06:12
Clark
I think it's really successfully used to to illustrate kind of the most like the ancestral context of this community, which is actually really beautiful and fun to see with the dancing that they do in that. And that and in that. But you've you've got some Russian funeral music. You've got when they're at the bar, they're kind of singing along, showing camaraderie.
00:57:08:02 - 00:57:24:23
Clark
And of course, and I want to really talk to you about this scene because I'm curious what your take was on it, because it's one of the more obvious kind of usages of music. And the film is at the very end at the coda, when when you've got them all sitting around the table and singing God Bless America.
00:57:24:23 - 00:57:35:14
Clark
I'm curious, what was your take on that? Do you feel like that? Was that a genuine or an ironic moment in your mind? And there's no wrong answer because I think the audio is.
00:57:35:18 - 00:57:49:17
Cullen
The actors seem to definitely be playing it ironic. I mean, it's like the look on Meryl Streep's face is without a doubt very yeah, very I but I don't know. I mean, I couldn't tell you.
00:57:50:10 - 00:57:51:05
Clark
I mean it best.
00:57:51:05 - 00:57:55:19
Cullen
There are sometimes there are like there are different takes from the writers to the actors, right.
00:57:55:19 - 00:57:56:06
Clark
Yeah. Yeah.
00:57:56:08 - 00:58:18:17
Cullen
So it, it could have very well been written as a genuine. And the reason I say that too is because it is hard to tell what the writer's real take on the American involvement in the Vietnam War. It's like there's not really a clear, you know, the political statement being made by the film.
00:58:18:20 - 00:58:20:15
Clark
No, that's not so.
00:58:20:15 - 00:58:34:11
Cullen
It can be difficult to kind of discern, I would say that, yeah, I think that the actors definitely brought more of the ironic, more of the kind of critical, you know, approach to that. But fair.
00:58:34:11 - 00:58:58:05
Clark
Totally fair assessment. I think my, you know, kind of knee jerk response to it was maybe more of like bittersweet as opposed to maybe ironic, you know? So I don't know what that means. Exactly. Kind of maybe bittersweet is leans a little towards the ironic. You know, it's clearly not like, hey, happy days, you know, God bless America, you know, apple pie.
00:58:58:15 - 00:59:17:11
Clark
You know, it's definitely bittersweet at most. But that was kind of my main takeaway. But I could certainly see and it's interesting, in the commentary, Vilmos talks about how when he was reading the script, how he was like looking at this and like, oh, my gosh, you know, he ghost, he goes to Camino and was like, Are you really going to do this?
00:59:17:11 - 00:59:20:05
Clark
This is going to be so cheesy. Like, this is going to be or.
00:59:20:06 - 00:59:33:18
Cullen
And I wonder if it's because, of course, you're from the States and I'm nine and six not. Yeah. So I wonder if if that's maybe the difference is just that like I obviously don't have a connection to the song or God Bless America and neither would Zsigmond.
00:59:34:01 - 00:59:34:19
Clark
Yeah, yeah.
00:59:34:19 - 00:59:37:14
Cullen
And yeah, so I wonder if it's if it's the cultural thing.
00:59:37:16 - 01:00:01:15
Clark
Well, he said so Vilmos didn't admit. So after it was actually performed the way it was performed, the way you see it, that he changed his mind, you know? Yeah. Because it is more nuanced because it, it, it, it does have like a certain sense of bitter sweetness and irony in it that makes it more nuanced and complex as opposed to just like some patriotic, you know, like, I mean, that would have felt really bizarre.
01:00:01:23 - 01:00:06:00
Clark
Just so bizarre at the end of this film for it to have just been some kind of.
01:00:06:00 - 01:00:07:01
Cullen
Breaking out in the song.
01:00:07:06 - 01:00:33:02
Clark
I know that that would have been really, really out of place. Well, yeah. I mean, any any final words on the film? I a it's fun again as always to kind of like get to get to hear your take on it from another generation on a first viewing that's always that's always fun for me. So anything else that you kind of any last thoughts that you might have?
01:00:33:02 - 01:00:35:08
Clark
I feel like we've probably covered pretty much everything.
01:00:35:19 - 01:00:36:12
Cullen
We know I.
01:00:37:00 - 01:00:37:04
Clark
Our.
01:00:37:09 - 01:00:39:03
Cullen
Yeah, yeah. We got a lot.
01:00:39:12 - 01:01:01:07
Clark
We got a lot. All right. Well, as always, audience, our lovely audience out there. Thank you for for hanging out there with us. I hope that you've enjoyed this episode, Episode 55. We look forward to next when we will discuss another film. We don't know which one yet, but this is going to be Colin's choice next time, so we'll just have to wait and see.
01:01:01:07 - 01:01:06:13
Clark
But until then, everybody have a wonderful couple of weeks. We'll catch you next time.
01:01:06:13 - 01:01:10:08
Cullen
Bye bye.