00
Cullen
I Everyone Welcome back to the Soldiers of Cinema Podcast. Episode 53 I am Colin McFater joined as always by my co-host Clark Coffey.
00:00:19:06 - 00:00:33:20
Clark
Hey. Hey, what's up, buddy? I'm doing well. It's a beautiful day. It is like a crisp blue sky out there. You've got and this is rare for where I live. We've got these beautiful, white, fluffy clouds floating by.
00:00:34:04 - 00:00:35:17
Cullen
Our weather seems to be matching up.
00:00:35:17 - 00:00:43:22
Clark
Yeah, it's. I can. I'm looking out my office window here and a humblebrag. I can see Catalina Island. The ocean looks.
00:00:43:22 - 00:00:46:18
Cullen
Beautiful. I don't think I ever saw that when I was down there.
00:00:47:06 - 00:00:48:07
Clark
Yeah, you know what?
00:00:48:07 - 00:00:48:21
Cullen
Too hazy.
00:00:48:21 - 00:00:51:19
Clark
Yeah. I forget when you came down. Where did you come down? Was it.
00:00:51:19 - 00:00:53:20
Cullen
The end of July or early.
00:00:53:20 - 00:01:00:07
Clark
August? Yeah. So? So, yeah, we tend to get a little more haze at that time of the year. But it rained last night.
00:01:00:23 - 00:01:02:13
Cullen
So there you go. And it kind of cleans it out.
00:01:02:17 - 00:01:21:21
Clark
So which is why, I mean, I'll have to, I'll have to, to tattle on myself here. I had to ask Colin for an extra hour today because we had a huge not a huge storm, but we had a storm come by and it rained so hard and it was so windy that it woke me up and then I couldn't go back to sleep for hours.
00:01:22:04 - 00:01:30:23
Clark
But it was so now the sky is like really clean and it just is nice. Anyway, I digress. I digress. But the point is, I'm happy to be here to discuss.
00:01:31:12 - 00:01:36:05
Cullen
I want our little indie film that a lot of people might not I've heard of called Pulp Fiction.
00:01:36:05 - 00:01:56:05
Clark
Yeah, I know. I mean, I love being able to use this podcast as a way to share films that, you know, people otherwise would never have heard of. And yes, so I'm really excited, really excited to bring this to people's attention. But this is my choice. And I was talking to Colin earlier. You know, it's like Colin earlier.
00:01:56:10 - 00:02:10:19
Clark
You know, it's it's tough because, you know, on the one hand, I mean, now we've definitely picked films that that I mean, I think it was the first film we ever picked. So, I mean, if there were ever a mainstream film that everybody and their brother and sister have seen, it's that one.
00:02:11:07 - 00:02:12:01
Cullen
Yeah, but.
00:02:12:10 - 00:02:35:04
Clark
But, you know, I was torn when I picked this film because I was like, well, you know, it's been done to death. I mean, everybody has I mean, if there there has been more analysis and writing and discussion and debate about this film than almost any film I can think of. That's it's just it's I was thinking to myself, well, what in the world can we bring to the table with this?
00:02:35:17 - 00:02:50:00
Clark
But then I thought, well, a couple of things. I thought, well, you know, is that any reason to not discuss it? Because the fact of the matter is, is that this film, for me personally, has had a huge impact. It was kind of like the right film at the right time, at the right place. I was like 18.
00:02:50:11 - 00:03:09:10
Clark
I was this came out, I think in September or something, I think of 94. So I was literally just starting college. I was a freshman in college and and I was like, you know, becoming more and more interested in cinema and film. And so this was this was kind of like, right thing, right time, right place for me.
00:03:09:20 - 00:03:34:19
Clark
But but the other thing was I didn't want to deny that by not talking about it, just because a lot of people have talked about it. But the other thing I thought was interesting and I kind of want to keep in the back of our minds as we have this discussion, is that I think this is a unique situation where, you know, you've got me who was 18 when the film came out and we've got you and I have a 20 year difference or a little more than 20 year difference between us.
00:03:35:01 - 00:03:43:23
Clark
So I'm really curious to kind of compare and contrast what your experience is like with this film, you know, being so far removed from when it came out.
00:03:44:23 - 00:03:45:15
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah.
00:03:45:21 - 00:04:12:07
Clark
Because I do always think of this film as like very set in a specific time in my mind, in my mind, because I always place it in the context of this big movement of independent cinema in America in the early nineties. And so I always think of, of, you know, the beginning of Miramax, I think of, you know, Kevin Smith, I think of Sex, Lies and Videotape as Soderbergh.
00:04:12:07 - 00:04:34:09
Clark
I think of, you know, so much of this. And then I and then I think of like the cottage industry of Tarantino esque films that this birthed like, you know, or this inspired after it. Yeah. And so it it has such a like, like it seems so concretely in the nineties for me it seems I mean it seems to almost typify the nineties to me.
00:04:35:00 - 00:04:53:16
Clark
So I'm really curious to kind of see through your eyes a little bit and compare and contrast because you know, you saw it in 2005 at seven years of age, but I know you've seen it since then too. Is I'm curious, you know, your your repeat viewings when you were an adult and, you know, you were kind of able to say, you know, formulate more complex thoughts about it.
00:04:53:16 - 00:05:07:08
Clark
But so let's talk about that. Let me share my, like, experience with it and then I want to discuss yours and then we can kind of use that to talk about some other aspects of the film, if that's cool with you.
00:05:07:08 - 00:05:08:09
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah, that works.
00:05:08:12 - 00:05:31:07
Clark
So I've already kind of hinted at a lot of this, but yeah, so, you know, came out in 94. It's hard to overstate for people who weren't around at that time. It's really hard to overstate the hype, the impact that this film had. I mean, it was hugely, critically successful. At one when the Palme d'Or was nominated for seven Academy Awards, not only won for screenplay, but it just had such a profound impact.
00:05:31:07 - 00:05:58:06
Clark
I think it made something like 300 plus million dollars off. I don't know what was the budget. I mean, it was maybe 14 million or something like that. 8 million, 9 million made 214 million off that. Yeah. So it was you know, it's definitely it's a low budget independent film which I think gets lost in the mix. I think when you watch it, you see how cheaply it was done and we can talk about that a little bit more, but it's definitely an independent film.
00:05:58:06 - 00:06:09:18
Clark
It was a huge success and I think it's just hard to overstate. You know, not only did it impact pop culture, I mean, it like became pop culture. I mean, it it yeah, it.
00:06:09:22 - 00:06:10:20
Cullen
Rattles like you guys.
00:06:11:03 - 00:06:13:23
Clark
Yeah. Yeah. It was like this. It really did.
00:06:13:23 - 00:06:17:06
Cullen
It in a lot of ways. Still is. I mean, yeah.
00:06:17:09 - 00:06:39:05
Clark
And it and its longevity is surprising. Usually when you have a film that has that kind of impact and becomes so saturated and a lot of times they don't hold up, a lot of times they fade away in time. It's like, I like, here's a good analogy, like Saturday Night Fever. Speaking of John Travolta, that film had a huge impact.
00:06:39:05 - 00:07:00:00
Clark
It was a major pop culture phenomenon. It was an extremely successful film. Yeah, people don't really talk about that film the way they talk about pulp Fiction. I mean, there's a big difference, you know, in how we look at those two films now, but that's just one of many examples. So yeah, I think it's rare in that sense too, that it's actually stood the test of time.
00:07:00:00 - 00:07:25:10
Clark
But anyway, so for me, being 18 years of age, just going into college, being kind of, you know, my love for cinema, kind of growing and maturing, this film was had a huge impact on me. I was blown away by it. I hadn't really ever seen anything like it before. I hadn't been exposed to a lot of the films that Tarantino references in this film because I'm like a decade younger than him or so I think.
00:07:25:17 - 00:07:46:04
Clark
So a lot of his references come from a time before me, but I did love genre films and exploitation films, and I'd watch spaghetti westerns with my dad. And so I kind of understood, you know, and like Dirty Harry and, you know, some of the film genres that he does kind of explore here I had been exposed to.
00:07:47:20 - 00:08:08:00
Clark
But the other part that was, I think and this and we can talk about this a little more and why this film was so kind of impactful and inspirational, especially to people like film students and things, was his story. Of course, his story became such a big part of this film's success. And and of course, we all know his story now, so I'm not going to recap it in full.
00:08:08:00 - 00:08:34:00
Clark
But basically, you know, it's it's Hollywood outsider guy. Guy comes from kind of nothing. He works at a video store. And, you know, he he writes his own stuff. He gets to make Reservoir Dogs. It's a huge success. And then Pulp Fiction just blows everybody out of the water and he changes the game. So for somebody who is in Hollywood, outsider who wants to make films that can that that looks like a pretty, you know, like, wow, it can be done.
00:08:34:00 - 00:08:34:19
Clark
You can do it.
00:08:35:03 - 00:08:35:17
Cullen
Sweet deal.
00:08:36:19 - 00:08:41:06
Clark
So that's kind of my orientation to it. What about you? I'm really curious about your experience.
00:08:42:02 - 00:08:49:01
Cullen
Yeah, I mean, I was yes, I was seven or so when I saw this movie for the first time.
00:08:51:05 - 00:08:55:04
Clark
And set the stage for it and like. Like, Yeah. So how did you come to see it at seven?
00:08:55:04 - 00:09:04:11
Cullen
Yeah, I grew up in the suburbs now, and so, you know, a lot of sleep overs because, you know, your friends sort of live close by and it's just you walk over to their house.
00:09:04:13 - 00:09:09:02
Clark
Just imagine this idyllic Canadian, you know, nobody locks their doors.
00:09:09:08 - 00:09:27:11
Cullen
A stranger things. Yeah. So I used to go over to a friend's house, Um, this guy named Evan, who I kind of you know, you have those friends growing up where it's like, there, you know, his mom was like, my second mom, and. Sure. Yeah, his whole family knew me. I was at his house all the time, and, you know, um, and same with him.
00:09:27:11 - 00:09:39:13
Cullen
With me. It's like, you know, my best friend growing up, and he had an older brother who always kind of showed us different movies and with, like, we'd go to Blockbuster.
00:09:39:13 - 00:09:41:09
Clark
And how old was this brother? Roughly?
00:09:41:09 - 00:09:42:17
Cullen
Is 14 about.
00:09:42:17 - 00:09:46:05
Clark
Okay, so not too old. Not. Yeah, but compared to you guys.
00:09:46:06 - 00:10:14:04
Cullen
He might have even been a little bit younger than that. But okay. But yeah, we, so we, we'd always walk to there was a blockbuster pretty close to where we lived and we'd always walk there and like rent a movie or a game or something on, on the night of our sleepovers. And so we were there with his brother and Pulp Fiction was there, and I can't remember if he, as in my friend Evan, had seen it before or like his brother had shown him, but it was out that he had seen it and they wanted me to see it.
00:10:14:04 - 00:10:19:04
Cullen
Or his brother was like, Oh, I've got to show you guys this movie. It's it's, you know, Yeah, it's like crazy.
00:10:19:06 - 00:10:24:00
Clark
But one way or another, it was like somebody there had seen it and they were like, You gotta check this out.
00:10:24:07 - 00:10:39:01
Cullen
And so we went home. And again, normally it would be a thing where it's like we would kind of rent a movie that we wanted to see and his brother would like watch a movie upstairs. But, you know, this time, of course, we're all in the basement. Mm hmm. It was probably might have been I guess it could have been Dev DVD, but it might have been VHS.
00:10:39:01 - 00:10:49:14
Cullen
I can't remember at the time. And so he pops it in and it starts going and it was like, so a different from everything I had seen at the time because.
00:10:49:14 - 00:11:01:12
Clark
What were you watching at the time? Like, what would have been like your, like the palette of your film? You know, what would like, let's give us an average. Like, what would you have watched with your buddy?
00:11:01:18 - 00:11:03:09
Cullen
I mean, I liked like.
00:11:03:09 - 00:11:04:06
Clark
On a sleepover.
00:11:04:16 - 00:11:06:20
Cullen
I liked a lot of Hitchcock, but like.
00:11:07:03 - 00:11:09:02
Clark
So at seven, you were watching Hitchcock.
00:11:09:02 - 00:11:11:05
Cullen
And my dad was my dad was a big Hitchcock fan.
00:11:11:05 - 00:11:14:06
Clark
But that's not what you were watching when you went to go stay over at your. But it.
00:11:14:12 - 00:11:17:10
Cullen
Was probably Spielberg probably like something Jurassic Park or.
00:11:17:14 - 00:11:19:08
Clark
Or were blockbusters.
00:11:19:08 - 00:11:22:19
Cullen
Or one of his like, you know, music Minority Report or something like that.
00:11:22:22 - 00:11:26:05
Clark
Okay, so like current big blockbusters. Spielberg Yeah.
00:11:26:14 - 00:11:43:13
Cullen
Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, so this kind of I just remember watching it and immediately feeling like I could never tell my parents that I watched this movie. Like, it seemed so beyond and like, you know, just, I think just mostly not even because, again, we'll get to this in.
00:11:43:15 - 00:11:49:17
Clark
Were you shocked? Like were you do you have any moments where you were just like mouth agape? Were there any like, can you remember?
00:11:49:17 - 00:11:54:07
Cullen
I think I think it was it was more just that it was so different that I felt so not.
00:11:54:07 - 00:11:55:19
Clark
The violent specific. No.
00:11:55:19 - 00:12:15:20
Cullen
The moment I thought I'd seen, you know, I'd seen violence before and like that, but. Well, sure, he's up in Kansas, like the suburbs. Yes. Yeah, it's a vibe. It's like Mad Max out here, I think. I think it was the just the way the movie was, like how they were talking and how it was directed and and just.
00:12:15:20 - 00:12:16:14
Clark
The whole thing.
00:12:17:00 - 00:12:20:08
Cullen
There was drugs and things like that. Oh, yeah. It's like, you know, you just get the.
00:12:20:08 - 00:12:21:05
Clark
Overdoses.
00:12:21:05 - 00:12:24:09
Cullen
Feeling of like, like I don't even know what any of this stuff means.
00:12:25:08 - 00:12:26:18
Clark
Well, you're seven, and.
00:12:26:18 - 00:12:33:10
Cullen
It would be like just kind of sitting there and watching it and the, you know, the the Z scene and you're sitting there.
00:12:33:10 - 00:12:35:00
Clark
Oh, Oh, God, I don't know.
00:12:35:00 - 00:12:38:03
Cullen
I don't like you have no idea what's happening, but you're kind of like, okay, You're like.
00:12:38:07 - 00:12:41:01
Clark
Why is that man in a leather suit? Why aren't you.
00:12:41:02 - 00:12:41:09
Cullen
Red.
00:12:41:09 - 00:12:43:17
Clark
Ball? Why are there red balls in their mouths?
00:12:43:22 - 00:13:04:14
Cullen
And but I remember really I also caught on to kind of the humor of it all, that it was like kind of lighthearted in a way that there's not a it doesn't you know, it's not like a self-serious kind of, you know, drama. It was it was also very funny. And, you know, the time something would happen, I just would kind of look over at my friend and his brother and see that they were laughing.
00:13:04:14 - 00:13:14:19
Cullen
And so I was like, okay, it's all right for me to laugh and laugh at this because, you know, clearly it's meant to be. Yeah, yeah. And then so that was pretty early again, pretty early for me to have seen that movie.
00:13:15:13 - 00:13:16:17
Clark
But it stood out to you.
00:13:16:17 - 00:13:21:21
Cullen
Yeah. And then I don't think I really watched it again until high school.
00:13:22:14 - 00:13:23:01
Clark
Okay.
00:13:23:03 - 00:13:27:10
Cullen
Early high school, I'd say maybe like maybe late middle school.
00:13:27:10 - 00:13:32:03
Clark
But so only a few years later then, right? Like maybe, what, four or five years later?
00:13:32:03 - 00:13:32:19
Cullen
Yeah, maybe.
00:13:33:02 - 00:13:33:10
Clark
Okay.
00:13:33:11 - 00:13:34:12
Cullen
Probably six or seven.
00:13:34:12 - 00:13:42:20
Clark
And what did you think of it then? You're a little older, you've got more film experience under your belt. Do you have any recollections of this next viewing when you were a little older?
00:13:43:09 - 00:13:58:18
Cullen
Yeah. I mean, I think everyone goes through kind of that, especially these days, that kind of Tarantino phase. Okay. You know, there's like an I teach film. So I know that kids are still going through this because a lot of the kids that I teach, you know, they get to grade nine and they're really, really into Tarantino and stuff.
00:13:58:19 - 00:14:03:06
Clark
And do you find that this is like equal across gender or.
00:14:03:13 - 00:14:04:01
Cullen
Partially.
00:14:04:09 - 00:14:05:09
Clark
Mainly boys?
00:14:05:09 - 00:14:17:19
Cullen
If it is a if it is, I think I think boys, even boys that aren't really into film were really into Tarantino. I don't mean to generalize, but yeah, whereas girls that are really into film would be but you know, less so girls that aren't into film.
00:14:17:19 - 00:14:22:20
Clark
Yeah, I was just kind of curious. I mean, in my imagination. In my imagination, I would imagine.
00:14:23:06 - 00:14:23:12
Cullen
That.
00:14:23:21 - 00:14:38:11
Clark
Boys would be more drawn. But of course, again, it's just a generalization. And not to say that anybody couldn't be drawn, but just I, I was curious as to whether you had noticed. Did you know that the case. But so okay, so you're so you know everyone.
00:14:38:11 - 00:14:39:09
Cullen
Yeah. Everyone kind of gets it.
00:14:39:09 - 00:14:41:08
Clark
But did you do that then? Are you saying you.
00:14:41:11 - 00:14:48:15
Cullen
Sort of I, I wouldn't say that. I was as big of a Tarantino fan as my friends were.
00:14:49:18 - 00:14:52:06
Clark
But what did you think about it then the second time? Let's go back.
00:14:52:06 - 00:15:00:06
Cullen
To like like I remember thinking that it was really groundbreaking and like, it kind of picking up on the things that why they impacted me the first time. You know.
00:15:00:06 - 00:15:01:00
Clark
What? Okay.
00:15:01:12 - 00:15:25:06
Cullen
Like sort of help me contextualize is the type of stuff that that I just didn't understand when I was. Yeah. You know, that just even the fact of the movie that the film is non chronological, that like obviously I kind of understood that at seven years old, but I didn't really get why that was different. I didn't really understand like, right, what was groundbreaking about that.
00:15:25:06 - 00:15:51:07
Cullen
And so I think I think I really, you know, I would say the style of it to just that that was something that really stuck out to me that that the the like heightened dialog. And that's why, again, this was something that you said you hadn't really had a lot of experience for. But weirdly enough I I've seen, you know, both in like publications and conversations about like the style of his dialog and things like that and being really heightened.
00:15:51:14 - 00:16:23:08
Cullen
I didn't really re being really realistic and why I always thought that it was really heightened. I always felt that it was. But I think I think the thing is that when you're that age, when you're 20 or you're in grade nine and you see a Tarantino movie for the first time, I think the fact that the dialog is conversational in a way kind of tricks a lot of people into thinking, oh, it's natural, it's it's realistic because it's conversational without really taking that extra leap to go, well, conversational doesn't really mean real.
00:16:23:18 - 00:16:27:15
Cullen
It just means conversational. That's a bad thing. Dialog doesn't have to be realistic.
00:16:29:00 - 00:16:46:12
Clark
Well, I want to hold your thoughts on that. Hold your thoughts on that for just a second. Let's I want to fast forward then, because I want to kind of bracket your experiences here. But but this is a good topic. I want to come back to it. Let's jump then to watching it now as as an adult, 20 something year old person.
00:16:47:22 - 00:16:59:00
Clark
You watched it, I assume, again, for the this conversation right now that we're having. Yeah. Tell me what you thought now. So now you know, you saw it when you were seven. Totally naive, you know. Yes. Non cinephile per se.
00:16:59:00 - 00:16:59:23
Cullen
Having No, I see it.
00:16:59:23 - 00:17:20:20
Clark
Again at ten or so. So you're still you know, but but now let's fast forward. You've watched it. Now you have all of the breadth and depth of your film experience behind you. You totally understand the context of this film, but tell me what you think of it now, not because you don't have that, you don't have the memory of it in its time and place that I do.
00:17:20:20 - 00:17:22:18
Clark
I'm really curious about what you think of the film now.
00:17:22:18 - 00:17:45:20
Cullen
So I think I think it was it was easier this time. I hadn't seen this again since I was in first year university. So yeah, feel like five or so years ago it was really easy for me this time to almost just view it as a movie and kind of try and analyze it as such. Yeah, just like, okay, what's the, what's the filmmaking like?
00:17:45:20 - 00:18:05:06
Cullen
What's the. And I think that's just because I've been so far removed from, from like, you know, high school when it's like everything is about Tarantino and you know, I hadn't seen I don't think I'd really watched a Tarantino movie in a few years. Yeah maybe since me and you saw Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Oh, that's drama.
00:18:05:09 - 00:18:14:08
Clark
Yeah, we did. When? That's right. It just coincidentally that that movie was released when you were here and we went to go see that at the Cinerama Dome before COVID hit. And it closed.
00:18:14:20 - 00:18:24:10
Cullen
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Really sad. But yeah, but I think that might be the last or so. I think I've been kind of removed, not intentionally, but just haven't really been like in, in.
00:18:24:14 - 00:18:25:22
Clark
In that space. Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:25:22 - 00:18:31:20
Cullen
And so it was a lot easier for me to just kind of put it on, watch it and sort of go, okay, like, what do I think about this? And I could see.
00:18:31:20 - 00:18:44:16
Clark
Like, what did you think? So what was your like? You were probably watching it. I don't put words in your mouth, but my guess maybe you're watching it like, a little more analytically this time. Yeah. We're going to have a conversation. But but if you can, like, what was your emotional response to it?
00:18:44:16 - 00:19:06:20
Cullen
So I think I, I mean, my first thought was like, I can see why this is the the like, you know, every film student's favorite movie. You know, that it I can see why this is taught in so many screenwriting classes and things like that. Yeah. You know, in a deserved deservedly so. You know, it's it's it's a it's a very, very unique and good movie by all metrics.
00:19:08:11 - 00:19:17:05
Cullen
But I also think that interestingly enough, I kind of, you know, was able to pick out some of the things that I, I don't love about it. I find these let's start there.
00:19:17:05 - 00:19:17:13
Clark
I want to.
00:19:17:13 - 00:19:32:01
Cullen
Yes. I mean, I think that the, um, I was really I was a lot less engaged with the Bruce Willis storyline. Okay. Um, I found that to be like, whereas that was the one thing that I kind of always remembered from it, that this time I found that because.
00:19:32:01 - 00:19:33:15
Clark
The gimp thing probably grabbed.
00:19:33:22 - 00:19:42:09
Cullen
Your life. I think that this time I was just kind of less interested in that and found the, you know, Sam Jackson character. And I found he's.
00:19:42:09 - 00:19:45:21
Clark
So good in that movie. Oh, yeah. I mean, he's so great in that.
00:19:46:18 - 00:20:13:14
Cullen
And the date with Mia Wallace, I thought that that was was you know, those are kind of the things that stuck out to me this time is things that I really, really liked versus the the you know, I think that the Bruce Willis story almost leans a little bit into, you know, where Tarantino would go a little bit later because, of course there's like the the comedy with the weapons and he's picking up the baseball bat and the chainsaw and the samurai sword.
00:20:14:03 - 00:20:17:14
Cullen
And that's not to say that I don't like that's like that storyline in the movie.
00:20:18:04 - 00:20:18:16
Clark
No, but.
00:20:18:17 - 00:20:20:03
Cullen
It just means that you're.
00:20:20:03 - 00:20:21:04
Clark
Less favorite of the.
00:20:21:05 - 00:20:30:20
Cullen
It was it was just yeah, it was I think it more so was just interesting that this time I watched it and I was sort of like, huh, That like that. That part definitely captivated me less.
00:20:31:09 - 00:20:31:19
Clark
Yeah.
00:20:32:12 - 00:20:44:13
Cullen
I think that. But I do. Yeah. You know, it's I also think that I always misremember what you know, how long like I always think that the the Bruce Willis storyline ends the movie like I for some reason you.
00:20:44:13 - 00:20:45:05
Clark
Forget about.
00:20:45:05 - 00:21:03:11
Cullen
The memory come that the Yeah I guess maybe because it's non chronological that's technically is the end of the movie. Yeah but I or I guess not technically I guess figuratively it is the end of the movie. And so I always think that okay, they do the gimp thing and then the movie's over and I always forget that there's like 35 more minutes.
00:21:03:14 - 00:21:06:18
Clark
And it's a long film. This is a two and a half hour long film.
00:21:06:18 - 00:21:23:00
Cullen
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that was thing. I think that that's something that really works in the movie's favor is that it's not a movie that unless you've seen it, you know, ten times, you don't really remember it on each viewing. Like, like in terms of, like the specifics of the plot. And I always kind of like movies like that.
00:21:23:00 - 00:21:26:01
Cullen
Like, I like watching a movie where I'm like, Oh, you know, I forgot.
00:21:26:01 - 00:21:26:15
Clark
Yeah, completely.
00:21:26:15 - 00:21:27:07
Cullen
Forgot about this.
00:21:28:06 - 00:21:57:21
Clark
That's true. It does. The fact that it's non chronological. I also think that it's it's more dense than you kind of think it is in the sense that because I think the dialog is so enjoyable and the dialog is so rich in its detail, that combined with the, the, the out of chronological order storytelling, I think, you know, you can go back and watch it repeatedly and kind of enjoy it again and again.
00:21:58:06 - 00:22:15:07
Cullen
Yeah, Yeah. And the non like, you know, perhaps it's and I say this not in a negative sense, I think that this word has a lot of like charge connotation with it, but I just mean that in the most like true sense of the definition that there's like obviously a gimmicky aspect to it being out of chronological order.
00:22:15:14 - 00:22:17:01
Cullen
You know, it's, it's a bit of a gimmick.
00:22:17:08 - 00:22:35:06
Clark
Well, you know, but I'll just add here. I hear what you're saying, Quentin Tarantino's own words about why it's out of order is is this just out? You know, and you may already be aware listeners, maybe some of you, but just I'll try to summarize, you know, so Quentin spoken to this because, of course, he did this in Reservoir Dogs.
00:22:35:19 - 00:22:57:15
Clark
He's done this and a lot of and you'll even see he says like chapter you know or something and what he kind of the way he kind of categorizes what he's doing here is that he feels like he likes to write, like basically to be writing a novel. It's my understanding of his writing process that he doesn't write in a script format that he actually writes just in like a like you'd write a novel.
00:22:57:15 - 00:23:18:15
Clark
I can just prose. He's not sitting there in final draft type and stuff out. And so, you know, it sounds like he's a well read person. In addition to having watched a lot of films, it sounds like he's well read. Maybe a lot of that is Pulp Fiction, but who cares? You know, he's but I think he's kind of trying to replicate what he would experience in writing and reading a novel.
00:23:18:21 - 00:23:33:02
Clark
Yeah, it's a very common storytelling technique to write out of order of chronological order in a novel. And so he's like, Well, why the heck can't you do that in a film that I enjoy this when I read a novel, I like this, so I'm going to do it in my films. But I agree with you. I mean, it does.
00:23:33:13 - 00:23:51:10
Clark
I don't know if he consciously was like, Well, this is going to make my film different, you know? So I'm going to do that. Or I, I mean, I think it's just that, you know, so gimmick, gimmick I think is a word that I at least feel like is like, okay, this is premeditated. Like, I'm going to try to find a way to set myself apart.
00:23:51:11 - 00:24:00:03
Clark
What if I tell the story out of order? It's going to set me apart. I think it's just the way that, like it's an emanated from him authentically is what I'm trying to say.
00:24:00:05 - 00:24:04:07
Cullen
Yeah, it's what I am. And what I mean by Jim I don't necessarily mean again, not.
00:24:04:09 - 00:24:05:11
Clark
Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Yeah.
00:24:05:15 - 00:24:07:11
Cullen
Because it's obviously it's a charged word, you know.
00:24:07:12 - 00:24:07:20
Clark
Yeah.
00:24:08:00 - 00:24:37:06
Cullen
Usually it's used in a negative sense more so what I meant was that it's, it's one of those things where if this film, this film doesn't it, it works really well non chronologically and I prefer it non chronologically like. Yeah I don't think, I don't think I'd enjoy the movie as much if it was in chronological order, but it's not like a, a noir movie where you set up some sort of, you know, thrilling beginning with a question and then it ends a twist on that.
00:24:37:06 - 00:24:53:02
Cullen
It's like a good point. The order of the film doesn't actually necessarily have a payoff, Dory wise, except for, you know, a little bit of like a you know, you realize they're in the diner at the end, but even that it's not necessarily something that's like, oh, it all makes sense now.
00:24:53:02 - 00:24:54:02
Clark
Yeah, it's very similar.
00:24:54:02 - 00:25:11:08
Cullen
It's just it's just, you know, they happen to be at the diner at the end. So. So he's not in I but I like it like, I actually think that it, yeah, it bookends the film really nicely because you're kind of sitting there, you almost forget about the diner sequence when you first watch it and you're like, Well, why or why did we start on that?
00:25:11:08 - 00:25:28:10
Cullen
And, you know, where did that go? And I remember I think the first time I watched it, I remember actually thinking that and perhaps this is like the most analytical. I got up and I remember thinking, Oh, that was just to set up the world. That was just to kind of set up the atmosphere for this world that we're in, that like anything can happen.
00:25:28:10 - 00:25:51:06
Cullen
And that was my take away the first time before obviously seeing at the end come back. Yeah, but I do vividly remember that that it like cuts away and you don't go back to that. And I remember just sort of thinking like, oh, it was just like an introduction to and it does work as that two kind of works in that way of really establishing the tone and the rules for this world that it's like a it's a heightened kind of stylized world where anything can happen at any time.
00:25:51:06 - 00:26:09:10
Cullen
Someone can pull out a gun and rob the store that you're in. It works in that way. So there's a lot of like kind of like multi uses for the fact that it's that's out of chronological order. Yeah, but it's interesting that it's not. Yeah, it's not it's not necessarily driven to that in a sense of like there's plot payoff.
00:26:10:08 - 00:26:13:21
Cullen
Right. Right. Yeah. Not a bad thing. Not, not okay not a criticism. Yeah.
00:26:14:03 - 00:26:33:07
Clark
And because I don't think his films are generally too much about plot, I mean, obviously plot happens, but I don't think his films are focused on that. So I think that's a very interesting point. But I think like, I don't I don't know how many people talk about like kind of Quentin Tarantino's worldbuilding, but I actually think he does a pretty amazing job of that.
00:26:33:07 - 00:26:57:18
Clark
And it's fun to see how his films are connected and they're connected in really fun ways. Characters are related to each other from film to film, and there's just a lot of little touches that kind of connect every single one of his films. And that might be something as simple as production design the brand of the Cigarets or, you know, but but like I said, character characters being related to each other, you know.
00:26:57:18 - 00:27:26:08
Clark
But, but I think within even the film itself, I, I kind of there's something very satisfying to me about this kind of full circle, kind of that that, that everything that's going on, this little world is almost like a snow globe or something, that everything is kind of self-contained, that everything is kind of connected in some way, that all these characters are kind of connected in some way, even if they don't know it yet.
00:27:26:08 - 00:27:52:13
Clark
I don't know why that's pleasing to me, but it is like pleasing to me, you know, There's an elegance to it, I think. And it's and it feels kind of like an easy elegance here. It doesn't feel like a forced elegance, at least to me. And yeah, it doesn't really have anything to do with plot. It has to do with character and it has to do with just this like sense that this is a self-contained story.
00:27:52:13 - 00:28:20:06
Clark
The characters in it are in this little world and everything they do kind of has an impact. Yeah, and, and a consequence to everybody else. And we're going to kind of see that as we go and we might see that kind of out of order. And so I think there's small little surprises there. They're not huge, they're not plot related, but they're just, you know, kind of small little surprises that I think are really I don't know.
00:28:20:06 - 00:28:25:04
Clark
It's just it's very appealing to my kind of sense of what is elegant in a story, you know?
00:28:27:05 - 00:28:48:08
Cullen
Yeah. No, I mean, that's that's it's again, as I said, it's it's one of those things that, like, I kind of want to go back to what you said about about plot not being the center, too. Yeah. Which is something that I've really found myself, you know, very much believing in for the for the past a little while.
00:28:48:10 - 00:29:13:19
Cullen
And I think that I think that if I can go on a little bit of a tangent about like, do it, do it, go film school and stuff like that, which neither of us went to film school, but I know that there's a big, you know, you, you talk to professors and stuff like that and a lot of, you know, people who graduated from film schools that like that's like, okay, the plot, you have to have like a, you know, the perfect plot.
00:29:13:19 - 00:29:16:01
Cullen
It's got to be, you know, nailed to the ground.
00:29:16:01 - 00:29:18:02
Clark
And it's God save the can structure.
00:29:18:02 - 00:29:56:14
Cullen
Exactly. And there's all this stuff about like yeah three act structure that that you know, you have to read all these rules and this is what this is what and you know, you got to know the rules to break them, which is, you know, I guess true to a to a degree. But I think that I really like a movie that that doesn't the I guess the way that I'll put it is that you can have a movie with bad plot or lack thereof that is directed to a T that is that is really, really like well shot well you know acted just like in terms of like writing scene to scene that they'd like
00:29:56:14 - 00:30:17:15
Cullen
the dialog that's great and all that. I would take that over a movie that's poorly directed, but with just like a really brilliant plot. Yeah, you know so and I think that that's, that's kind of what I like about this movie is that it's not so concerned with, with, you know, it kind of almost feels Altman esque in a way.
00:30:17:19 - 00:30:42:21
Cullen
Hmm. You know, we did the Long Goodbye a while ago and, you know, the Long Goodbye is a movie that, like, sort of has a very vague plot. It's kind of just like Elliott Gould walking around and meeting people and not to get off of Tarantino. But I also notice that that was and these these are two filmmakers who are contemporary and are very similar.
00:30:42:21 - 00:30:52:12
Cullen
But Tarantino and Paul Thomas. Anderson Oh yeah, yeah. I noticed that a complaint about Paul Thomas Anderson's newest movie, Licorice Pizza, which I loved, I thought it was fantastic.
00:30:52:12 - 00:30:55:06
Clark
Don't tell me anything about it. So no spoilers.
00:30:55:06 - 00:31:02:08
Cullen
It's very similar. It's in that it's not got a plot. It's very much about the scene to scene.
00:31:02:08 - 00:31:04:17
Clark
Almost like Phantom Thread was very much this.
00:31:04:17 - 00:31:18:20
Cullen
Yeah, it's like, like every scene is sort of more of like an anecdote or a it's own little set piece or tableau. So that kind of feeds into the larger feel of something, but not necessarily the larger overarching plot.
00:31:18:21 - 00:31:19:05
Clark
Right.
00:31:19:08 - 00:31:24:18
Cullen
You know, if you were to ask somebody what is pulp Fiction about in a sentence.
00:31:24:21 - 00:31:25:04
Clark
No.
00:31:25:10 - 00:31:45:20
Cullen
You couldn't really give an answer like you could with a Star Wars. Like, you know, Star Wars is about a band of rebels who steal plans and have to rescue a princess to blow up a deadly. Right, right, right. But this much more you would get into the feeling. And I notice that you know, someone who's not very similar to Tarantino on a stylistic level, but you get into that with one of my favorite filmmakers, Malick as well.
00:31:45:20 - 00:32:20:05
Cullen
And I've noticed that I've been drawn towards these filmmakers recently who Michael Mann as well, who I love, who are more concerned with the moment to moment feel of their movies, with the moment to moment. You know, not I don't want to say it like it's like an everyday life sort of thing, like slice of life, because that's not really quite what I'm trying to describe, but rather this feeling that that conversations don't have to be pertinent to plot that, that you can have.
00:32:20:05 - 00:32:38:14
Cullen
And I think that that's the thing about this. You know, they spend like 4 minutes talking about cheeseburgers and it's something that kind of comes back up through the movie as a little bit of sort of like a callback. But it's not like later on, you know, the key to the mystery of, like, what's in the briefcase is, is it.
00:32:38:18 - 00:32:39:12
Clark
Brought out with.
00:32:39:12 - 00:32:44:23
Cullen
Cheese sandwiches or something? Yeah. And so I find myself drawn to that a lot.
00:32:45:06 - 00:33:03:20
Clark
I, I hold, I just, I just have this total crazy thought. I just imagine. Can you. So if, like, Bruckheimer did this or something, I could imagine that the end of the film, there'd be a bomb that's about to go off and they have to like guess the password to turn off the bomb. And they're like, Oh my God, what Royale with cheese.
00:33:03:20 - 00:33:07:13
Clark
And it like disarms the bomb with like, you know, one second left. Okay?
00:33:07:13 - 00:33:23:08
Cullen
So it's not it's not a movie that necessarily it's a movie that simultaneously deals a lot with set up and payoff, but also plays with that trope in that like half of the things that are set up don't have payoff. And it's not in a frustrating way. It's just in a really interesting kind of.
00:33:23:08 - 00:33:52:17
Clark
Or payoff in a different way. Kind of, Yeah. You know Yeah, there there is a lot of and I guess that's what I'm trying to hint at when I say like I feel like there really is kind of this just intuitive elegance to this where I feel, yeah, first of all, I feel and I think we all just as an audience member, you don't have to be a super articulate cinephile or critic to kind of feel this, but you watch a movie and you know, sometimes you'll watch a movie and you'll you'll you just feel like you are in the hands of somebody who really knows what they're doing.
00:33:53:02 - 00:34:19:14
Clark
And you can settle in and you trust a filmmaker, you trust the storyteller, and you just go along for the ride and you're totally able to focus on the story because you just you feel like you're in such good hands. Mm hmm. I like I would say that is a rarity. Most films that I watch, there's always like, I'm not fully engage because there's always a part of me that's like, Oh, that, that was like just a little less than elegant.
00:34:19:19 - 00:34:41:13
Clark
That was like, I see where they were. I see where the mark they were trying to hit. They got close, but they didn't quite hit it. It didn't it's not a perfectly that's not a perfectly like, elegant solution. They didn't perfectly make that jump or that, you know. So but, but in this film I really don't get a sense of any of that.
00:34:41:13 - 00:35:01:20
Clark
So if that but but I think this is a bit I think these little setups and payoffs that are that are that are kind of spread throughout the film and they're not huge. Right? They don't have to be huge. Often they're just in dialog or how the characters are sharing the same space and kind of interact later or something like that.
00:35:02:16 - 00:35:04:19
Clark
But it's just very satisfying to me.
00:35:05:04 - 00:35:35:16
Cullen
Well, even even with the feature that I made, I is watching it now. There's a lot of things that I think I missed. You know, I can I can point out and say like, oh, you know, I didn't really hit the mark on that, that I wanted to. Yeah. But it's one of those things that, you know what the one that I'm writing, it's almost like if you worry less about really writing something to hit a very, very specific thing in your head and then try to execute that perfectly.
00:35:35:16 - 00:35:58:19
Cullen
Whereas what I think this sort of does and what I'm what I've learned from that is that if you write something where you get an idea or a gist of it, and then on set you work out, okay, this is how we're going to do it, that that can be a more effective way of hitting those marks. And I can see that, you know, Tarantino is obviously someone who who likes to work a lot a lot on set and talk to actors and try things.
00:35:58:19 - 00:36:25:03
Cullen
And and what's interesting is that, again, you know, a lot of people in my generation in yours too, are really, really inspired by Tarantino and take a lot from him. I've found that I've always sort of not been not necessarily that I'm not inspired by him, but he's he's never really hit my you know, like to say, if I have had to rank the top ten directors that have really what I do, that's not to say I don't like him.
00:36:25:03 - 00:36:46:09
Cullen
There are plenty of directors that I, I love that that aren't that necessarily don't necessarily like inspire me stylistically. Yeah but what I will say also with that though, is that he's somebody that is really, really helpful, even though I don't necessarily stylistically pull from Tarantino that I can look at the way that he makes a movie and I can go, okay, that so like that's what he's doing here.
00:36:47:03 - 00:37:15:13
Cullen
How can I apply that and kind of turn that into something myself and turn into my own work? And so I think that that's, you know, he's he's a really valuable filmmaker in that way, if that makes sense. Even the movies of his like I'm not a really big fan of The Hateful Eight, but I would still, you know, there's still such a depth of stuff to study about that movie versus something like, you know, you know, the latest Marvel movie or something like that.
00:37:15:13 - 00:37:36:17
Cullen
Like there's just there's, like you said, someone who really knows what they're doing and deeply cares about cinema is always going to like even there, you know, or even with Herzog. The Herzog movies that I maybe don't love still like it. Similarly to this, I don't necessarily mean that I can't get anything out of them. In fact, quite the opposite.
00:37:36:21 - 00:37:37:06
Clark
Yeah.
00:37:37:13 - 00:37:54:13
Cullen
Course. But this is not one of those movies that I would say is like that. This is a movie that I think that I really do like. Yeah, but, but it is just sort of interesting that, like even the directorial choices that he makes here that I don't necessarily agree with on a stylistic level. Yeah, I still am fascinated with them.
00:37:54:18 - 00:37:58:02
Cullen
Yeah. Yeah. Looking at them and going, okay, like, what's he doing here?
00:37:58:09 - 00:38:11:21
Clark
Well, you, I mean, that's the thing is like, look, you don't ever and this is I think this right, this film came out, this combined with Reservoir Dogs, his posters are on every college dorm room I ever you know, was went into. Yeah.
00:38:11:21 - 00:38:12:23
Cullen
When still to this day.
00:38:13:03 - 00:38:31:17
Clark
Yeah and well and that's interesting to know because I have a bed in a college dorm room in a really long time but I certainly know it was like you had Bob Marley and you had Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction, and that was like what people had on their wall when I was a kid. But yeah, I mean, and I think that's the trap that people fall into, though, you know, there's nothing wrong with that.
00:38:31:21 - 00:38:48:21
Clark
People have been inspired by his work, but then they try to ape the specifics of, you know, of what made him him and yeah, and that's just never going to work there. You aren't him. Nobody's him. You have to be your own person and you have to have your own authentic voice. And that the irony is, of course, is that that's what he did.
00:38:48:21 - 00:39:11:16
Clark
You know, he was for, you know, steadfastly his own film maker. And it just so happened that there was a market for for who he is and what he made. But but he didn't change himself to find some market. He didn't you know, a lot of people argue that he steals a lot and he does, but he definitely makes it his own.
00:39:12:10 - 00:39:14:13
Cullen
And Yeah, and that's exactly what I mean is that.
00:39:14:16 - 00:39:24:17
Clark
You can't yeah, it's good that you don't want to take all of his pieces of how he makes a film and make a film or. You wouldn't want to do that with any other, whether it's Malick or anybody else. You know, you want to be your own film maker.
00:39:25:12 - 00:39:42:00
Cullen
I think that's what's important is if I guess anyone is listening to this and they are starting out or they're a film school student or something that like I know a lot of people who when they made short films, when they made movies they like, tried to emulate. Tarantino's like writing style. Well, in the book you write dialog.
00:39:42:00 - 00:39:44:07
Clark
I don't think there's anything wrong with that in the beginning.
00:39:44:13 - 00:39:49:00
Cullen
No, to practice, no. But I think that when you're when you're trying to.
00:39:49:00 - 00:39:49:22
Clark
You'll grow out of it.
00:39:50:02 - 00:40:12:07
Cullen
Yeah. And when you're well if you're like, you know, if you're, if you're trying to make a short film to kind of be like a in a way a proof of concept for yourself as a director, right. That, you know, should write that Tarantino screenplay, you know, take it and try to emulate his dialog, but then do another draft where you you say, okay, how am I going to like, what if I pull the Tarantino out of it?
00:40:12:07 - 00:40:15:05
Cullen
It's a process because I think that that yeah, I think the.
00:40:15:17 - 00:40:32:02
Clark
Voice is a you know, finding your own voice is definitely a process and I always try to be like and it and it may change over time, but ideally it will change as you grow as a person. But I would like I think a lot of people, they look at this is I think another reason why Tarantino is kind of an inspiration.
00:40:32:15 - 00:40:53:13
Clark
It seems like Tarantino arrived fully formed, right? Yes. Yeah, because because he popped on the scene with Reservoir Dogs. It was a substantial film, you know, And, you know, he wrote True Romance, which was also a successful and substantial film. He wrote Natural Born Killers was which was still successful and did have an impact. It's a controversial film.
00:40:53:13 - 00:41:24:09
Clark
A lot of people love it. A lot of people hate it. I think it's horrible. Of course, the script is radically different as Stone has rewritten it, but nonetheless, Quentin's name's there. But you know, and then and then, you know, for his sophomore slump, he didn't have a slump. He had a you know, he created a masterpiece. So but but one of the things that I think is interesting is that, you know, before he got to the place where he was selling scripts and before he got to a place where he had reservoir, you know, in listening to the I think the only commentary track he's done for any of his films, he did a
00:41:24:09 - 00:41:47:02
Clark
commentary track for True Romance, of course, which he only wrote, but he does a commentary track on that. And he talks about how he wrote at least 30 scripts before he was able to kind of find his voice and complete a full script that he was happy with and wanted to do something with. Mm hmm. I started writing, he says, when he was, you know, something like, I mean, ridiculously young.
00:41:47:03 - 00:42:09:02
Clark
You know, I forget what he says there, but I mean, maybe even as far back as seven, he started writing. So it takes time, you know? And it wasn't like he just sat down and wrote a couple of scripts and they became Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction. Sometimes it's easy to forget that. So it's a process. You know, I think if you write 30 scripts at your own at home, you're going to start to find your voice, even if it.
00:42:09:02 - 00:42:10:02
Cullen
Isn't exactly.
00:42:10:08 - 00:42:17:13
Clark
Kind of aping somebody else's. Keep writing. You'll find your own voice. Yeah, Yeah.
00:42:17:13 - 00:42:30:10
Cullen
No. And I think that that's that's a very good point to make because, yeah, it's not in nobody. There's not really any such thing as like an overnight success in the way that there is.
00:42:31:00 - 00:42:32:01
Clark
Not really even.
00:42:32:01 - 00:42:42:15
Cullen
People who you know, you might say someone who I actually I don't think I've seen any of his movies but this guy David Samberg, who was like a YouTube short film guy, I have.
00:42:42:15 - 00:42:43:12
Clark
No idea who that is.
00:42:43:12 - 00:43:07:06
Cullen
Warner Brothers discovered one of his movies and he's now directing, like, big blockbusters. Oh, well, literally just from being discovered on YouTube, which is really cool. And he's he seems like a really nice guy. I've just I've just not really seen many of his movies or many of them. But, you know, if you go to his YouTube channel, he was making movies for like 20 or ten years, like he was making short films for like ten years before.
00:43:07:07 - 00:43:22:06
Cullen
Yeah. So you might say, oh, he was an overnight success in the way that he made one short film that got big and Warner Brothers wanted to make a feature out of it, but it was a long before that. But he had been making movies for how long? You know, And I think that that's something that's really, really tough to play with.
00:43:22:06 - 00:43:47:08
Cullen
You know, there is something that I always tried to keep my myself from thinking was that like, okay, I'm going to make a feature and then that's it. I'm just going to get to sit back and coast on the on the fact that I made a feature, right? And you kind of have to like through the entire process, whether it is you're making a feature or you're making a short film or you're writing a screenplay and whatever, you kind of have to keep thinking like, no, no, no, Like this is not this is not the final step.
00:43:47:08 - 00:43:52:01
Cullen
I'm never on the final step. Yeah, You know, it's just a very long staircase.
00:43:52:09 - 00:43:53:09
Clark
Just a process. Yeah.
00:43:53:09 - 00:44:02:10
Cullen
And so, so like, was soon as I finished my movie, as soon as I wrapped the final cut of it and sent it off to festivals, I didn't just sit back and go, okay, I'm done.
00:44:02:10 - 00:44:03:14
Clark
I immediately to writing.
00:44:03:14 - 00:44:04:15
Cullen
Three other movies.
00:44:04:15 - 00:44:04:23
Clark
Yeah.
00:44:05:18 - 00:44:23:09
Cullen
And was planning on what I wanted to do next. And I was going, okay, how am I going to market this movie? Am I going to simultaneously while I'm writing my next one's? How do I use this as a jumping off board to make those? And so I think that's the same thing is that like in the next movie I'm writing is very different but also still has, you know, I would say, a more distilled version of my voice.
00:44:23:09 - 00:44:33:13
Cullen
And I think it's similar with Tarantino, like you said, that just because his first two movies were big movies doesn't mean that he hadn't. You know, and you can see years and years of if was struggling.
00:44:33:13 - 00:45:03:02
Clark
Like if you read his original script for Natural Born Killers, not in that Stone's version, but if you read it and you read True Romance script and you know, if you read these back to back and then you read Reservoir Dogs and you read Pulp Fiction, you'll see that he is constantly refining his voice. You'll see that there's these basic narrative threads, these basic character types, even like base kind of fundamental plot devices are the same in in piece or in whole throughout all these films.
00:45:03:13 - 00:45:09:23
Clark
And he keeps going back to the same place over and over. But he's refining, refining, refining.
00:45:10:19 - 00:45:34:19
Cullen
I think is something else that's kind of inspiring about him is that both with writing and direction, he very clearly does not care to fit in. Yeah, and I think that that's something that also takes a lot of courage that a lot of time when you're writing a screenplay or you're directing something as a beginning, you're kind of thinking, okay, what?
00:45:34:19 - 00:45:50:07
Cullen
I've got to make something that people want to see without kind of going, Hang on. If I just make something true to myself, then I can just hope that what I am doing is something that people want to see. And I think that that's something that's that's, that's, you know, really.
00:45:50:12 - 00:46:04:06
Clark
Really got to make something is, you know, the language he uses and I and other people have used it, too. And I tend to agree with this, is that you've got to make a film that you want to see. Yes. Right. I mean, it has to be a film that you want to see. And I know that, you know, there's that.
00:46:05:02 - 00:46:19:06
Clark
And a lot of I think it's it's one of the reasons that I enjoy him. And and I think that, you know, sadly, there's the market is now filled with films that are kind of focus group created. So that's you know all the.
00:46:19:09 - 00:46:21:09
Cullen
But primarily that that's you know.
00:46:21:09 - 00:46:29:03
Clark
That's and there's so there aren't as many films I think that that are a kind of a singular vision know of someone.
00:46:29:13 - 00:46:31:08
Cullen
They're just they're very much the exception.
00:46:31:19 - 00:46:51:19
Clark
Especially at this budget you know he's making $100 million movies sometimes like Django Unchained, for example, is like a $100 million film. Once Upon a time, I think was probably right around $100 million. Yeah, I think so. So there there just aren't that many filmmakers who are able to make a film that's their singular vision from beginning to end.
00:46:51:19 - 00:47:13:04
Clark
It's his script. He writes it. He doesn't have to modify it to get budget. He shoots it directly and directs it. It's exactly what he wants. And he's got final cut and boom, you know, and he you know, it's like a props to Sony with Once Upon a time I think China refused to release it. Of course China is a this the largest market now.
00:47:13:12 - 00:47:27:18
Clark
Yeah and and going to India was like no I'm not changing this so that it can be released in China. I don't remember exactly how that sussed out. I don't know if it would, you know, if it was eventually able to be. But I know that he didn't, he didn't change.
00:47:27:20 - 00:47:40:12
Cullen
And the unfortunate aspect about that is that it's it's you know, you have to at this point and perhaps this is something about just like the state of the film industry today. But you you have to be a Tarantino or a Spielberg or.
00:47:40:12 - 00:47:41:16
Clark
Yeah.
00:47:41:16 - 00:47:42:05
Cullen
You know.
00:47:42:13 - 00:47:43:17
Clark
To get a film director that.
00:47:43:17 - 00:47:48:14
Cullen
Has a has a not only to get a film made, but to get, you know, final cut rights and to get.
00:47:48:16 - 00:48:02:03
Clark
Well, even those other filmmakers. I think Quentin Tarantino is even more unique than most of these other filmmakers, because even some of these big filmmakers that you talk about, they have trouble getting financed like Scorsese. Yeah.
00:48:02:11 - 00:48:06:04
Cullen
Has yeah. Has had to go to Netflix for the Irish, right?
00:48:06:04 - 00:48:13:22
Clark
Yeah. And it's there aren't many filmmakers I can think of. And I think even Spielberg doesn't necessarily have an ace in the hole.
00:48:13:22 - 00:48:14:12
Cullen
For.
00:48:14:12 - 00:48:16:12
Clark
No getting a budget for a film.
00:48:16:17 - 00:48:24:05
Cullen
And maybe one day will do. You know, this might be a neat episode to actually just talk about kind of the state of the film industry today. Maybe we'll do that one day, but.
00:48:25:07 - 00:48:49:10
Clark
Well, I want to touch on something real quick. I want to go back to something because this is I'm curious about this and you've mentioned this a couple of times. You said that you feel like Quentin Tarantino is is like a quote unquote phase that people go through and that almost every film student, at least you work with or that you've seen latches on to Tarantino as a director, maybe first or in the beginning or, or it's almost.
00:48:49:10 - 00:48:50:19
Cullen
It's kind of like, yeah, it's, it's.
00:48:50:19 - 00:49:08:05
Clark
Like a given. It's almost like a given. I'm curious, what do you think that is? Like why? You know, why do you think that he is so popular so immediately with people who are interested in film and maybe want to make films? You know what? I'm curious, what's your thought?
00:49:08:05 - 00:49:15:23
Cullen
I think and I think it's because it's one of those things where fuselages are killing me.
00:49:15:23 - 00:49:20:16
Clark
Oh, my gosh. I don't think that if you're not editing that out.
00:49:20:16 - 00:49:43:00
Cullen
Yeah, I think one of the things is, is that you have these kids who are growing up, you know, elementary school, middle school. It's not really often that a parent is going to be like, we're going to go see the new R-rated Tarantino movie or we're going to rent the R rated Tarantino movie. Maybe a little bit more common these days with Netflix, where it's like you don't necessarily have control as to what a kid is watching.
00:49:44:13 - 00:50:15:19
Cullen
But at least back in my day, back in my day when it was Blockbuster and stuff like that and you didn't have that and you as well, I'm sure every the thing is that Tarantino is he is a loud, confident, um, unique filmmaker. And I think that you turn 14 and this is, this is again this is something that I saw happen to all of my friends not this is a bad thing by any means.
00:50:15:19 - 00:50:40:05
Cullen
I'm not saying this is like this. This is the warning story of catching the Tarantino, but it's just something that I've noticed happen to all my friends. And I've noticed it happened to, like most of the film students I teach you turn 14 and you see Pulp Fiction for the first time, or you see Kill Bill or you see you see, you know, Inglourious Basterds and you go, This is so and I don't mean loud in a bad way.
00:50:40:05 - 00:51:01:11
Cullen
This is so, but it's loud. It's confident. It is. It wears its it's hard on its sleeve. And you go, I can do that. I can do that with things that I love. And so you kind of go and I remember in high school we were like when we were in a contact class, we one of the assignments was to make three different movies, and one of my friends was like, Well, we have to make a Tarantino movie.
00:51:01:11 - 00:51:18:02
Cullen
It was like you had to make three different movies in three different genres. And it's like it's it's almost its own genre. Like this idea of Tarantino, this kind of like I described is sort of like almost like a jukebox sense of like all these different genres or remix might be a better way to describe it of like taking all these things that Tarantino loves and putting them into one.
00:51:18:18 - 00:51:23:21
Cullen
And it's honestly, he is one of the easier filmmakers to emulate the style of.
00:51:24:10 - 00:51:26:03
Clark
Well, superficially, maybe.
00:51:26:03 - 00:51:37:20
Cullen
Superficially, yes. But I mean, like, it's very you know, if I, if I when I was in grade ten, I could I could superficially emulate the style of Tarantino. And most people who have seen a Tarantino film would be like, Oh, I.
00:51:37:21 - 00:51:39:09
Clark
Get it, I know what you're trying to do.
00:51:39:10 - 00:52:17:23
Cullen
Yeah, from the title cards. Yeah, the music that he uses, the the way the camera moves, the energy, the performances, the dialog. Yeah. It's really something that's super, super accessible for, for a lot of like kids around that age, I think, and, you know, filmmakers around that age. And so I think that it just winds up being this thing where it's like, well, I don't know quite what I want to write, so I'm going to write a really badass sword fight, but I'm going to make it super Like I remember when I was applying to go to film school, you know, everyone's making these like very artsy, like black and white.
00:52:17:23 - 00:52:39:12
Cullen
So here's a, you know, person sitting on a park bench who sees their old self pass by and writes a letter and it's like, you know, all that kind of thing, too, to get in. And I made this, like, you know, crazy, like, kill Bill style samurai sword fight. And I got into school. I didn't I didn't wind up going, but I like got into all the schools that I had been in that do.
00:52:39:12 - 00:52:52:11
Cullen
And I think it's just something that like it's so boisterous and it's it's really it's just very stylistic stylistically accessible again I guess that's is the word I can say. Is that it?
00:52:52:15 - 00:53:13:23
Clark
Well, it obviously has an impact on people. I you know, my experience is a little different. So I don't have a lot of exposure to to young film students. The exposure that I had to film students was so, for example, at UCLA or AFI, especially AFI. So we're talking about graduate students and AFI has a pretty high level of graduate student.
00:53:14:14 - 00:53:38:19
Clark
And the reason I had exposure to them is that through SAG, I was on AFI's list of actors that students could like. I was in an actor pool that students could pull from to make their films, their projects, their as they were going through their conservatory. So I even was attended some classes and was involved as an actor in in classes where directors would work with us.
00:53:38:19 - 00:53:56:18
Clark
And then I've been in some AFI films. Okay. And it's funny because it couldn't be more opposite at that level. So I wonder, I almost have this hypothesis where it's like, you're a kid, I was sick use kid, you know, broadly, but you're.
00:53:56:18 - 00:53:57:17
Cullen
Young, early teenager.
00:53:57:17 - 00:54:18:13
Clark
Yeah. And, and this like, really jumps out at you and and you're almost like you don't any fear of, of trying to like steal from it right so you know you're like oh well this jumped this is this was awesome. I felt something when I watched this. So I want to emulate that. I want to also do something that's kinetic and cinematic and vibrant.
00:54:19:17 - 00:54:32:03
Clark
And like you said, it's at least superficially, you can kind of point to the stylistic, you know, what, what you feel like is making this, quote unquote Quentin Tarantino at Quentin sorry Tarantino esque.
00:54:32:16 - 00:54:33:12
Cullen
Long term task.
00:54:33:15 - 00:54:43:15
Clark
But what I see. Yeah, but what I feel like I saw when these older film students is like these brooding like, you know, I mean, this like very.
00:54:43:15 - 00:54:45:15
Cullen
Very deeply like thrill.
00:54:45:15 - 00:55:08:00
Clark
Where it's like, yeah, this is super deep. And I'm going to like really, you know, it's is going to be an introspective, deep, character driven meditation on character. And it would be black and white. And I'm just going to like you. I like I love your description of like this, a character sitting on a park bench watching like, their older self.
00:55:08:21 - 00:55:11:01
Cullen
Yeah. And it's all it's all like.
00:55:11:02 - 00:55:40:20
Clark
You know, it's just like this, this horse pucky, man. And I was involved in numerous scripts that were pretty similar to that, where I was just like, uh, you know, like there's just it's like this. There's such a desire to be deep. And I was it almost feels like it like, like a rebellion against or like, you know, okay, we, I can't be kinetic and like, you know, in the way that Quentin does his films.
00:55:40:20 - 00:56:01:06
Clark
I've got to, like, Rebel. I've got to, like, move as far as I feel like I can from the head. And I'm going to be introspective and, you know, all this kind of stuff that we just described. So I don't know. That's kind of my exposure. I wish that I would have gotten to be in a film where I could director it if I wanted to make a Tarantino esque film, you know?
00:56:01:11 - 00:56:24:01
Cullen
Yeah. I mean, I think and I think that that's you you kind of got it right on the again, I don't want to say grow out of it sense because it's like I don't mean to sound like like Tarantino is only an entry level filmmaker, but rather that I think that people are because it's so accessible and because, you know, for example, like if if something exciting happens, Tarantino pushes in on it.
00:56:24:09 - 00:56:44:08
Cullen
And so as a new filmmaker, you can go, okay, I understand why he's pushing in there. And so but I do think that you're right in saying that it's it's something that people then take and then you kind of like with everything you make, you chip off that style a little bit more until it's it's you're at the core of what you want to make.
00:56:45:03 - 00:56:46:09
Cullen
And it just sometimes like.
00:56:46:11 - 00:56:48:20
Clark
When I saw I definitely did that exactly.
00:56:48:20 - 00:56:56:21
Cullen
But sometimes it becomes something where people want to immediately. It's like one of those things where, you know, because it's popular, it can't be good. Yeah.
00:56:57:02 - 00:56:57:15
Clark
So people that.
00:56:57:15 - 00:57:08:18
Cullen
People are really into Tarantino in high school and, you know, a lot of people continue to be on into him in university. But then you've got those people who are like, well, men and all everyone likes him. So clearly I'm not I got.
00:57:08:18 - 00:57:09:11
Clark
To do something else.
00:57:09:12 - 00:57:13:06
Cullen
Yeah, I've got to do something that's more introspective.
00:57:13:14 - 00:57:15:02
Clark
Yep. Yeah, it's got to be.
00:57:15:03 - 00:57:21:23
Cullen
And I think that that, you know, that always just winds up. I think you're at that point just kind of faking another side of it.
00:57:22:06 - 00:57:44:21
Clark
Uh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah, I have. I'm curious, but it is interesting. I mean, I in not that we're going to solve the riddle or get to the heart of all of it here, but it is interesting that, that your experience is that younger film students that this is and you know, it makes sense in a sense I mean I could kind of see how for sure that, you know, Tarantino's films are they're exciting.
00:57:45:07 - 00:58:10:04
Clark
They're filled with action. And and so they could be appealing to a wider audience and maybe a younger audience. It's a lot easier to watch this than, let's say, you know, if you're seven years old, this is an easier film to watch than 2001 or especially like, you know, any, you know, Seven Samurai. I mean, God yeah, I mean, how many films or, you know, it'd be difficult to digest.
00:58:10:04 - 00:58:12:02
Clark
Difficult to understand. Yeah.
00:58:12:10 - 00:58:12:16
Cullen
Yeah.
00:58:13:04 - 00:58:35:04
Clark
So for sure, I could see how his films are definitely more readily accessible because I think he's taken, you know, so many pieces from genre films, exploitation films, action films, horror films, westerns, I mean, very popular genres. And combine them all into this big melting pot, you know, and kind of thrown his own personality and, you know, voice into it.
00:58:35:11 - 00:59:06:01
Clark
So for sure, it makes sense. And I think, you know, it's like, well, the thing I liked when I was 12, geez, I can't I can't. I'm 22 and I'm at AFI. I can't make the that I loved when I was 12 because. Yeah, boy, what does that say about me? I yeah, so, so I think that sometimes happens, but I mean, so for me I love all those genres of I love exploitation films, I love, you know, the spaghetti westerns and horror films.
00:59:06:01 - 00:59:30:06
Clark
And, you know, now my kind of base of references is like a generation later than Tarantino's. So a lot of the stuff that he loves and a lot of stuff that he references, is it necessarily? Some of it is. But just the idea, though, I mean, I feel like, you know, he's kind of the front end of Gen X, I'm kind of the back end of Gen Gen X, I think we're still and we're still in the same generation.
00:59:30:07 - 00:59:49:17
Clark
There's not that many years apart. And I feel like we were kind of like I was raised on television, I was raised on the radio, I was raised on VHS, I was raised on MTV, I was raised on pop culture. I consumed just a ridiculous amount of it as a kid. And so I get a lot of that.
00:59:49:19 - 01:00:04:22
Clark
You know, I, I get a lot of what he's doing. It resonates with me. Do you does that part resonate with you at all, or is that different for your generation? Because I we're both Gen Z and I think we're both Gen X, I know I am. I think he is.
01:00:05:02 - 01:00:05:18
Cullen
Yeah, he would be.
01:00:05:18 - 01:00:09:10
Clark
Yeah. And that part definitely resonates with me.
01:00:09:19 - 01:00:25:09
Cullen
I think, you know, it definitely does. It resonates. I mean I think that the thing is that I always try to say to like students of mine who are really into Tarantino is don't try to make a Tarantino movie. Look at the sources that Tarantino uses, Look at the stuff that he loves and if you want to make something, look at.
01:00:25:18 - 01:00:27:09
Clark
Something that you love even.
01:00:27:09 - 01:00:43:22
Cullen
Yeah. Or yeah and vice versa. Yeah. Or something that you like. But like I think that that's the thing is it's, it's you know, you're kind of when you when you say Tarantino samples a lot.
01:00:44:04 - 01:00:44:11
Clark
Yeah.
01:00:44:17 - 01:01:04:07
Cullen
Um and I think that the the best way to analyze his work in a way is to like go back to the source of those samples. Sure. And so no, but, but I and so I yeah, I totally agree that like a lot of, you know a lot of what I would do again when I like when I direct obviously I like I like Hitchcock, I like Malick, I like Kubrick.
01:01:04:12 - 01:01:17:22
Cullen
Yeah, But I'm never sitting there asking myself, okay, like how like how would Malick or how would Kubrick direct this scene? Right? Or at least if I'm doing that, if I'm asking myself that question, it's more of an exercise.
01:01:17:23 - 01:01:23:18
Clark
Yeah, well, I don't think he's doing that. Do you? I don't think. I think Quentin is like, do you think Quentin is doing that?
01:01:23:18 - 01:01:29:13
Cullen
No, no, no. And that but that's what I mean is that it's it's, it's but I think that that's the mistake that a lot younger people make.
01:01:29:16 - 01:02:19:19
Clark
Yeah. I think like because what I get a sense of and this is what I think speaks to me is that there's there's like in in Cody right there's like you know is there is a cultural encoding in these in the references that he's using. So so it's it's like he is you know he, he is like adding to and using this to this of this encoded this cultural encoding in all these references on purpose with great specificity, whether it's with his songs or whether it's with a certain, you know, with the specific like explicit cultural references in dialog or with the kind of implicit way that he might stage a scene in a similar
01:02:19:19 - 01:02:23:03
Clark
manner or use a similar type of shot, like, for example, or even just.
01:02:23:03 - 01:02:24:16
Cullen
Get a performance in an act or.
01:02:24:16 - 01:02:49:01
Clark
Performance of an act of something as simple as like using the zooms in Django. And it's it's a direct callback to the way Sergio Leone would use zooms and his films. And a lot of people wouldn't recognize that in any kind of conscious way. But on a subconscious level, he's kind of incorporating that. The cultural encoding and history and bringing it into his films in a new context.
01:02:49:01 - 01:02:51:20
Clark
So that resonates with me quite a bit, I think.
01:02:51:20 - 01:03:12:15
Cullen
Oh, totally, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the way that I make something is that I, you know, I watch something that inspires me that I like a lot. Yeah. And you take it in you, you, you know, you, you, for lack of a better term, you consume the material and then your brain sort of does something with it and breaks it down.
01:03:12:15 - 01:03:30:12
Cullen
It's going like digests it well, breaks it down into its fundamentals, right? It becomes and so then when I'm directing something or when I'm writing something or whatever, what I'm not doing is is going, oh, you know, Kubrick shot that in a way, so I'm just going to take that shot. What I'm doing is like, okay, how did that shot make me feel on a fundamental level?
01:03:30:12 - 01:03:49:09
Cullen
And how can I then use what I know to replicate that feeling but in a way that I would do it? I think that's that's what Tarantino does, is that he he repurposes those things, he digests them, and then he goes well, that, you know, the way that these exploitation films used to make me feel was because they were really kinetic.
01:03:49:16 - 01:04:08:10
Cullen
But he's not using the kinetic system literally from an exploitation film. I'm going like, Well, he moved the camera. Like, there's that really sweet shot. Obviously there are some very specific shot references, but for the most part it's, you know, okay, they the the camera moves in this way that follows a character like this. How do I adapt that?
01:04:08:10 - 01:04:21:02
Cullen
How do you how do I digest that and understand this kinetic system much more so like, you know, in a more broad sense then like a specific like, well, I'm going to set up this shot and light it to be exactly like it was this, this other movie.
01:04:21:04 - 01:04:43:14
Clark
I think a lot of it just happens. I mean, a lot of it is just that we, you know, everything that you consume as an artist becomes part of you and especially the things that you consume. I think when you were younger that become kind of a foundational part of your personality. It's like I and different people are different, you know, it's like I, I feel very affected by the pop culture that I consumed.
01:04:43:14 - 01:05:05:13
Clark
And I don't see pop culture in a derogatory sense, but but television, film and music that I consumed in my formative years had a huge impact on me. It it informed a large part of who I am. And I was talking to my wife about this. So my wife had an interesting central point where like digressing a little bit here, but what the heck, why not?
01:05:07:00 - 01:05:27:02
Clark
My wife grew up in a stricter family where she did not have access to it. Kind of does, you know, 6 to 12 or 8 to 12. These like really pivotal years. She didn't have access to to a lot of pop culture. She didn't watch television. She didn't really see cinema and she didn't listen to a lot of popular current music.
01:05:27:15 - 01:05:57:11
Clark
And it's very interesting the difference that that kind of you know, it's hard for her to kind of understand how important those things are to me because she doesn't have that same experience. And I don't, you know, and so it's different from person to person. Not everybody has that same experience. But I think that's one of the things that I feel very connected to Quentin about, is that I, I sense how important those things were to him and his childhood and how informative they were and formative.
01:05:58:05 - 01:06:18:12
Clark
And I feel, you know, different sources for me, but I get that. So it's interesting to see him kind of turn that into something else as an adult. It'll be interesting to see how he grows, you know, if this next film that he makes, whatever that is, is actually his final film, it'll be interesting to see what he does next.
01:06:19:02 - 01:06:19:10
Clark
Yeah.
01:06:19:16 - 01:06:20:02
Cullen
Yeah.
01:06:20:03 - 01:06:49:01
Clark
If he writes or what he does. But there's something else I want to bring up because we're getting a little over an hour here. I want to talk to you just about a couple of things real quick. I'm curious, like when this film came out, I remember very specifically how people were discussing critics and just, you know, the people on the street watching it were really blown away by the the violence that they felt this felt like they felt like it was just hyper violent, just over-the-top violent like, oh, my gosh.
01:06:49:10 - 01:06:55:13
Clark
Which I don't know that I thought about too much then, but thinking about it later, I'm really surprised about I'm.
01:06:55:13 - 01:06:57:01
Cullen
Surprised about way less violence.
01:06:57:01 - 01:07:16:14
Clark
I remember well, and I'm curious, I want to add, you know, because it's like there were a lot of films now because the eighties was all about mega violence, right? I mean, Rambo movies like Rambo, Die Hard. The second one and the third one, Die Hard. You've got all the Arnold Schwarzenegger movies like they're all much.
01:07:16:14 - 01:07:17:22
Cullen
More violent than this.
01:07:18:08 - 01:07:29:11
Clark
And yeah, I mean, where there's like literally hundreds of people being killed, like literally hundreds of people are being killed, just blown away. Right. Just machine gunned down.
01:07:30:02 - 01:07:30:10
Cullen
Mm hmm.
01:07:31:06 - 01:07:39:07
Clark
What do you think? Is that what do you why do you think people saw this film and thought, wow, this is insane violence?
01:07:39:16 - 01:07:49:10
Cullen
And I think it's the the the a, I think it's one it's it's casual in this movie. It's more casual than it than it is in like an action film.
01:07:49:10 - 01:07:53:09
Clark
Where it Tell me more about what you mean by that. Like when you say it's so it's elaborate.
01:07:53:09 - 01:08:26:19
Cullen
And it's presented in it's and it's I mean it's easy to you can't get those those violent sneezes out of my head. We're going to be I think that it's it's it's casual in a sense that it's presented not necessarily as violence was before. It's not big and grand and blockbuster. It's quite you know, there's the joke, you know, Marvin started being blown off is like it's very like, oh, man, it's like dealt with in a way that's sort of more comedic.
01:08:26:19 - 01:08:28:19
Cullen
I also think that. But don't you? Not only is.
01:08:29:07 - 01:08:32:23
Clark
I feel like that would undercut. It's interesting because I feel like there is almost I think.
01:08:32:23 - 01:08:51:15
Cullen
It's just because it's different. I think more so people didn't know how to react to it because I think the other thing too, is that it's a it's violent in a way that people like. I think one of the reasons people might assume this is violent is because the way people talk to each other in the movie is violence or violent.
01:08:51:15 - 01:08:58:05
Cullen
Quote unquote. There's a lot of like, you know, just yelling at each other and like telling someone to, you know, shut up and I'm.
01:08:58:05 - 01:08:59:05
Clark
Cool, honey Bunny.
01:08:59:10 - 01:09:13:12
Cullen
Exactly. Yeah. And so I think that perhaps that's it. Like the the scene opens on them, you know, when they run out and rob the thing. And she's like, oh, blast every one of you. And it's like, you get that kind of thing. Which I think, you know, just one.
01:09:13:12 - 01:09:13:22
Clark
Of the best.
01:09:13:22 - 01:09:20:13
Cullen
I think that was yeah. And I just think that people didn't really know what to think. And so I think.
01:09:20:13 - 01:09:57:10
Clark
It's a novel to be in while it was presented you feel like heightened it in people's minds. Yeah yeah I you're on the I agree with you in the same kind of vein think you know it's interesting Quentin Tarantino undercuts almost every if not every scene of violence with humor and it I don't think people talk often about how how humorous the film is but almost every scene, if not every scene, is totally undercut or has either undercut by humor or it has humor around it and really funny humor.
01:09:57:23 - 01:10:24:15
Clark
And you'd think and you would think that that would de-emphasize or disarm some of the violence. But it didn't. But I mean, whether it's like Mia Wallace getting the adrenaline shot right in the heart I remember everybody just going on and on about that when this movie first came out. And you have like this totally hysterical button at the end of that scene where, you know, the the woman with all the piercings is like, groovy man.
01:10:24:15 - 01:10:26:15
Cullen
Yeah, this is it. That was trippy. Yeah. Yeah.
01:10:26:15 - 01:10:46:16
Clark
Ah, trippy. Yeah. And and so every scene is like that, you know, it's like you've got Sam Jackson with Tim Ross, you know, at the end with the chamber, has got his gun in his face and he's like, taken Sam's wallet and Sam's like, I need my wallet back. And he's like, Well, which one is it? And he's like, It's the one that says bad.
01:10:46:16 - 01:11:06:17
Clark
You know, I won't say it here because we'll get an explicit. But he's, you know, and that's friggin hysterical, dude like who has a wallet that says bad MF or on it, you know Yeah. Like it's hysterical, you know every single scene of violence is like that. Like you talk about Marvin's head getting blown off. It's freaking funny.
01:11:07:06 - 01:11:12:17
Clark
Yeah. To me, it's hysterical. When I watch this movie. I laughed my butt off when I said.
01:11:12:18 - 01:11:14:20
Cullen
I think that that's I think that that's kind of what I.
01:11:14:20 - 01:11:45:09
Clark
Laughed my butt off. And so and I guess maybe this is another way that I feel a kinship to Quentin Tarantino, because, you know, I have never equated cinema violence to real world violence ever. I don't like I do not equate those two things. As a matter of fact, I think that art is a healthy outlet for things like violence, for us to explore them and actually could potentially even lower the amount of real world violence that could exist.
01:11:45:09 - 01:11:48:18
Clark
If you have a healthy out like a healthy outlet for those kinds of things.
01:11:48:18 - 01:11:49:10
Cullen
Yeah, yeah.
01:11:50:11 - 01:12:10:19
Clark
But not to get too deep in that, but I just, I found it funny. Like to me the violence is a set up for humor so I never quite understood like in Kill Bill came out you know, and it was like she you know, kills whatever 50 people in that scene. To me it seems so humorous, you know.
01:12:11:02 - 01:12:25:22
Cullen
What I mean? There's that famous interview where he's on like I don't know what some some like cable news network and this this the ladies and interviewing about him and she's like it's grotesque. There's so much blood and violence. Yeah. Why do you do that? Why do you have to make it so violent? And then he's like, Because it's so much fun.
01:12:25:22 - 01:12:27:10
Cullen
Yeah.
01:12:27:10 - 01:12:47:08
Clark
Yes. And, and I agree. And I it's weird. I think it's weird. And we're not going to be able to break it down here. We'll have to wrap up soon. But I think it's there's something this is an interesting thing where it's like Rambo can blow away a hundred, like Vietnam, whatever it was, and Rambo two, I don't remember.
01:12:47:08 - 01:13:08:10
Clark
You know, it's like Vietnam. These like, just nameless, faceless third world people write in the story and nobody cares. But but somehow Quentin does it. We're like, you know, a violent criminal is, you know, is murdered in a bathroom. And it's you know, it's like pop tarts, You know, it's even that has a funny button.
01:13:08:22 - 01:13:09:05
Cullen
Yeah.
01:13:09:14 - 01:13:31:13
Clark
And people freak out over John Travolta getting shot. But it's like you can murder a hundred nameless, faceless third world country, you know? Yeah, Yeah. Like, it's just we. I don't know. We're not going to suss that out here, but there is an interesting there's something weird going on there. But But I feel like Quentin Tarantino's film uses violence in kind of the same way that Bugs Bunny uses violence.
01:13:32:00 - 01:13:34:09
Cullen
Yeah, it's like it's vaudevillian.
01:13:34:14 - 01:13:53:21
Clark
It's not. Yeah, I never get the sense that this is like, real. Even though it's intimate. Yeah. Violence is usually intimate. No, not always. But anyway, it's just interesting. I mean, Yeah, but it's something you felt as a young kid though. You said you did the violence, did it. It stood out to you, but you were seven, so I could see that for sure.
01:13:53:21 - 01:14:02:19
Cullen
I think. I think it was more so than the violence, though. I think it was just the tone. Yeah, it was much more of the tone than it was the the violence.
01:14:02:19 - 01:14:09:22
Clark
It's kind of happenstance that you just know, like it's like, Oh, well, yeah, okay. Just violence. This is the world we live in now. Clean off the brains.
01:14:10:04 - 01:14:13:23
Cullen
Yes. Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, it's just my everyday life in my. Yeah. Suburb.
01:14:14:01 - 01:14:17:23
Clark
Yeah, I mean, to me, the delivery in context was just hysterical, but, but.
01:14:17:23 - 01:14:25:03
Cullen
Yeah, I guess, I guess to just one thing I do want to touch on quickly too is the cinematography.
01:14:25:08 - 01:14:26:08
Clark
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:14:27:07 - 01:14:32:08
Cullen
On Ondrej Sekula. I don't know, I might be mispronouncing name but yeah.
01:14:32:17 - 01:14:33:20
Clark
That this was shot. Yeah.
01:14:33:20 - 01:14:38:09
Cullen
His last film that he did with Tarantino where Tarantino went on.
01:14:38:09 - 01:14:43:12
Clark
To work and he did shoot Reservoir Dogs by the way. So he did shoot these two films with Quentin. Right.
01:14:43:22 - 01:14:56:00
Cullen
And I'm someone who I really like Robert Richardson. I think Robert Richardson does like JFK. I think it looks fantastic. But I actually have got to say that this might be my favorite looking of all Tarantino's like in turn.
01:14:56:01 - 01:14:57:09
Clark
Tell me more about that. Yeah, What do.
01:14:57:09 - 01:15:20:08
Cullen
You I think that it's very it feels super low fi and I like that. Yes. You know, it almost feels like when when, when Sam Jackson and John Travolta are walking up to the house right at the beginning, like they're walking through the lake to the apartment complex, it feels kind of like Miami Vice, like it's like this weird kind of like lo fi.
01:15:20:11 - 01:15:22:14
Clark
Well, it's it's kind of flat. It's kind of.
01:15:23:16 - 01:15:32:09
Cullen
Like super saturated. It's it's in the the light is also really, really stark when they're talking in that, you know, the Tim Roth scene right at the beginning.
01:15:32:15 - 01:15:32:23
Clark
Yeah.
01:15:33:02 - 01:15:39:17
Cullen
The light on half of their faces like completely blown out. They are stark and it's like really kind of high contrast.
01:15:39:17 - 01:15:59:12
Clark
But you can see it's natural and you can see it. There's I mean, it's natural light at it, but it also it speaks to the the, the budget of the film, I think to a great extent. Yeah. You're always in interiors. There's almost never anything, any kind of scope. We're always we're in a car and it's it's fun.
01:15:59:12 - 01:16:03:21
Clark
How Quentin uses your projection process. Yes. Yeah.
01:16:03:22 - 01:16:04:06
Cullen
Very.
01:16:04:17 - 01:16:16:13
Clark
Very obvious process. Shots in the cars but but everything is very low fi low budget, which I think stands out more to me now than it ever did before.
01:16:16:20 - 01:16:29:13
Cullen
Yeah. And I just really liked I think the movie just looks really, really I like I you know I like I like when cinematographers don't have a lot to work with. I think it's kind of it makes them a little bit brilliant in a way where.
01:16:29:16 - 01:16:31:08
Clark
It works great for the film, right? I mean.
01:16:31:12 - 01:16:52:23
Cullen
Yeah, I find it when someone adds like, you know, 100 lights that they can set up anywhere. It kind bothers me a little bit, honestly, because it's like you can do anything with it. Yeah, and I do. I do not do. We want to get really, really briefly, perhaps just to finish off on the the Deakins Tarantino kind of little mini debate.
01:16:52:23 - 01:16:53:13
Cullen
Yeah, let's.
01:16:54:06 - 01:17:09:15
Clark
Talk about that. I do want to briefly touch just music and cast real fast. I mean, we're already long, but I just I feel remiss if we didn't touch on those. And then let's go to that. I mean, obviously, a lot was made about bringing John Travolta back in the cast.
01:17:09:19 - 01:17:12:07
Cullen
Yeah, he was kind of he was really in a slump there.
01:17:12:13 - 01:17:31:14
Clark
It was a brilliant casting. I mean, it was a brilliant move. I don't know if this was like, you know, a conscious choice, but, I mean, you know, apparently Quentin really stuck to his guns. He was like, look, you know, at this point, he's talking to Miramax. He's like, if you if if Travolta can't be in the lead, then you're not the person to make this film.
01:17:31:20 - 01:17:50:15
Clark
So a pretty a pretty bold move. But it was you know, it ended up being a great for the story and it ended up being really fantastic for the marketing of the film because it's I mean, imagine all the like logistic ways that this is great I mean, he gets an actor, although in a current slump brings with.
01:17:50:15 - 01:17:51:02
Cullen
Him a.
01:17:51:02 - 01:18:09:15
Clark
Huge audience, right. Brings with him a huge recognition. But you don't to pay him a lot. I mean, it was a really brilliant piece of casting and and and and it was a really fantastic fit up. Of course, Sam is in what, almost all of Quentin's movies.
01:18:09:21 - 01:18:10:04
Cullen
Yeah.
01:18:10:17 - 01:18:36:02
Clark
Sam Jackson is just amazing. He is a really stand out performance, but it's just so many of these performances are fantastic. I mean, you talked about in the beginning, you know, Amanda Plummer with Tim Roth. Yeah, I meet Ving Rhames, Eric Stoltz, you know, even these smaller roles like Rosanna Arquette, Christopher Walken, and, you know, apparently Bruce Willis was, you know, worked for scale on this to be in the scene that is your least favorite.
01:18:36:02 - 01:18:38:20
Clark
But, hey, I mean, to get Bruce Willis at this and.
01:18:38:21 - 01:18:39:05
Cullen
Fred in.
01:18:39:05 - 01:18:54:11
Clark
Your film. Yeah I you know combination of of of amazing marketing and just I mean now you'd be hard pressed to imagine any of these people in, you know, a different actor in any of these roles. It's just Yeah. He gets Harvey Keitel back of course. Harvey Keitel Yeah.
01:18:54:11 - 01:18:56:08
Cullen
That's one of my favorite. I love Harvey Keitel was.
01:18:56:13 - 01:19:11:03
Clark
And he was instrumental, of course, in getting Reservoir Dogs made, right. He he was attached and was in lockdown, helped lock down financing from the get go, you know, Uma Thurman, and then, of course, goes on to Duke, although one and two with her.
01:19:11:04 - 01:19:11:11
Cullen
Yeah.
01:19:11:21 - 01:19:17:00
Clark
It's just, you know. And Quentin clearly gets great performances.
01:19:17:03 - 01:19:28:23
Cullen
Over People seem to be yeah they all like you can really feel that and you know, both you and I have an acting experience You can you just know when someone is just like playing up and like having so much.
01:19:28:23 - 01:19:30:11
Clark
Fun. Yeah, you can sit there.
01:19:30:12 - 01:19:30:21
Cullen
And you can.
01:19:30:21 - 01:19:31:10
Clark
Joy.
01:19:31:14 - 01:19:53:13
Cullen
And there's nothing better than when you are acting and someone just like a director just allows you to just go far with something and just, just like, Hey, give me, give me like, the most ridiculous, you know, the most ridiculously high energy take you can and then you get to bring that back, but you still retain that. Just kind of like feeling of, like passion and energy for the for the moment.
01:19:53:13 - 01:19:57:01
Cullen
And you know, you can really you just that kind of oozes off the screen in this.
01:19:57:09 - 01:20:23:22
Clark
I things I've heard obviously I've never worked with Quentin would love to but you know things I've heard a couple of things I think really lends itself to great performances. One, Quentin, his encyclopedic knowledge of film is integral on the front end to casting. I think he has a good intuition about casting people, but I think also, you know, his enthusiasm and passion for cinema in general on set seems to be really contagious.
01:20:23:22 - 01:20:46:09
Clark
I mean, a lot of people talk about how Quentin sets are are really they feel like family, that it's some of the most fun sets that people have ever worked on. Whether it's younger cast, you get a lot of feedback from people who've worked with Quentin that he loves doing what he's doing so much and his given he happens to be in a position where he's got quite a bit of free rein to do exactly what.
01:20:46:13 - 01:20:47:11
Cullen
People really want to work.
01:20:47:11 - 01:21:12:20
Clark
There's not a lot of friction there, right? So the people who are on his sets want to be there. He wants them there. And it it sounds to me, from what I've heard just peripherally, that they're just fantastic, fantastic sets that's got contribute, you know, pretty substantially to these consistently amazing performances for sure. And then last thing I just want to touch base on, it's because you could do a whole podcast about each one of these things.
01:21:12:20 - 01:21:34:06
Clark
But music, you know, there isn't any original score for the film. Of course, it's been talked about a million times over the. Quentin does the same thing with music as he does with his cinema references, you know, and you listen to it, it it's really extraordinarily effective. It's like what more could be said, You know, it's like people have talked about it forever.
01:21:34:06 - 01:21:49:15
Clark
But I you know, it's I was even surprised, you know, when I popped this in and I watched again for this just in the beginning how the music just hits you over the head, how we've got that, you know, what is it, The Dick Dale surfer music stuff. Yeah. Comes on and.
01:21:49:17 - 01:21:51:02
Cullen
Then the Black Eyed Peas.
01:21:51:02 - 01:21:59:01
Clark
And then, well, it's well, that black IP is it's jungle Boogie comes on like right after that, but it hits you with this.
01:21:59:01 - 01:22:02:16
Cullen
Whiteness mean that the Black Eyed Peas sampled the Dick Dale stuff for that.
01:22:02:20 - 01:22:06:12
Clark
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Boy, I'm not a huge fan of Black Eyed Peas.
01:22:06:12 - 01:22:06:22
Cullen
Me neither.
01:22:07:02 - 01:22:27:14
Clark
But. But, I mean, it's just this one two punch of, like, auditory, just, you know, energy that just wow. And it's like, wow, you know, this is going to be epic and this is going to be loud and it's energetic and it's amazing usage of music to kind of set you up for 15 minutes of what's the next 15 minutes are just talking, you know.
01:22:27:14 - 01:22:41:05
Clark
Yeah, but but really continuing what he did with Reservoir Dogs into Pulp Fiction and he's done pretty much every film since. Yeah, but yeah, well, okay, so let's jump into this thing that you wanted to talk about.
01:22:41:05 - 01:23:11:22
Cullen
It was really, really like a last kind of point. So there was this spat recently, and I call it a spat. Was it really? Yeah, It was like they were responding kind of to each other. They so so as you know, some people listening may or may not know. Roger Deakins, cinematographer, won the Oscar twice pretty recently. He is, I would say, probably the most popular cinematographer working like everyone I talk to.
01:23:12:03 - 01:23:35:09
Cullen
Deakins is also a DP they all loved I. I'm kind of indifferent. No offense. Deakins. I think he's a great cinematographer, but not not my style. Yeah, but he was talking about how much he doesn't like shooting on film and how, you know, he gets, you know, he just doesn't like that. The work that is required to kind of like, see your image, right?
01:23:35:11 - 01:23:59:19
Cullen
Like with digital, you can you can see the dailies. DEAKINS Also, this isn't really something that but the context, but not something that came up in the debate. But. DEAKINS Also someone who famously has said he doesn't do much with the digital negative, that he he likes to do what he does on, set with lights and doesn't really touch like he like obviously he you know, there's color correction going on.
01:23:59:19 - 01:24:00:17
Clark
But Wright doesn't.
01:24:00:17 - 01:24:06:23
Cullen
Really like to do much with like the digital negative. And by way of like, you know, adding things are changing things with the actual negative.
01:24:07:13 - 01:24:07:22
Clark
Yeah.
01:24:08:22 - 01:24:28:04
Cullen
Tarantino obviously on the other hand famous for saying that like the only way to shoot a movie is on film in that like cinema is 24 frames a second celluloid running through a camera being projected on film and All right, of course, he has the New Beverly in Los Angeles. You know, I think both of us, I, I land somewhere sort of in the middle.
01:24:28:11 - 01:24:54:11
Cullen
Yeah. Whereas I think that obviously the advent of digital was incredibly liberalized, liberating for, you know, liberalizing. I like that for for cinema and for making people like I wouldn't have been able to shoot my movie on film. But what I did was that I, you know, on the opposite end of someone like Deakins and much more in the style of a cinematographer who I really like Steve Yedlin, you know, I think that it's a waste of time to not do anything with your negative.
01:24:54:11 - 01:25:10:20
Cullen
I think that to to not take advantage of every tool you have and to go into post and go, okay, I'm going to craft the look of this. I crafted the look of my feature before I even made it. I did extensive camera tests and got, you know, the color and the light and the collation and all this stuff.
01:25:10:22 - 01:25:36:05
Cullen
Exactly way I wanted it so that when we were shooting, I saw in the, you know, the image exactly what it was. And I think it's partially again, this is a very controversial opinion, but I think that's partially the reason that Deakins doesn't really stick out to me as someone that I go to for inspiration a lot. I find that his images just kind of lack texture and that he he doesn't do a lot with with them, whereas he's a really great at lighting and stuff like that.
01:25:36:15 - 01:26:06:08
Cullen
And but then Tarantino responded and basically called Deakins lazy and said, like, you know, he doesn't like to shoot on film because because it's work, like to weight and it's more work and blah, blah, blah. And so like, yeah, I think that, you know, I like the look of celluloid, I like, I like the look of film. Do I think that that's something at this point that you necessarily, you know, that an audience can pick out whether something is like really well emulated digital photography that is, you know, used to emulate film versus real film.
01:26:06:08 - 01:26:25:09
Cullen
I don't think that a, you know, casual audience is going to notice the difference. However, I will say that I do. The visual esthetics of film that are lost on digital are something that Deakins doesn't really make an effort to gain back, which I think are. I think they're just things, you know, opinion based that look good.
01:26:25:18 - 01:26:45:08
Clark
Yeah. Well I mean I, you know, I think look, I can't speak for Quentin Tarantino. We know that where he stands on film and I think that's that's fine. I mean it's it's I think for for Quentin Tarantino, it's a very personal thing. And it's like if you're a painter, you're going to have a certain paint brush type that you're going to gravitate toward.
01:26:45:08 - 01:27:06:11
Clark
You know, for him, it's a it's and I get it right. Is this like the most personal thing he does is make movies. And the tools that he uses to do that are necessarily they're going to be personal. And I love that look, if it didn't matter to him, I would be really questioning that. It doesn't matter to you like you don't care what your canvases.
01:27:06:23 - 01:27:27:19
Clark
So I, I think that's wonderful. And then it's also totally fine if somebody else wants to, you know, thinks digital is the best thing since sliced bread, more power to you. Go for it. There's room for both. I you know, I personally like the look of film better, but but I realize that that's likely because that's what I grew up seeing.
01:27:27:22 - 01:27:53:21
Clark
Okay. It's this isn't a logical thing. This is a like art is often not logical. This is a personal, subjective thing. I like to look at film better and and but but for me personally, it's not practical to shoot on film. I'm going to shoot digitally, of course, because it's more important for me to make a film on anything than it is for me to like, only make a make a picture on film like that.
01:27:53:21 - 01:27:55:20
Clark
And of course, I but I just, you know, the.
01:27:55:20 - 01:28:18:07
Cullen
Important part is that it's subjective of when I say that, I find that Deakins image lacks texture. That's something that a lot of people like. Yeah. So, you know, a lot of people like that ultra crisp, you know, smooth digital look. And that's that's totally fine. I'm not saying that Deakins is a I would never, ever say that he is a bad cinematographer because I don't I don't believe that.
01:28:19:09 - 01:28:44:00
Cullen
But to me, I like an image with texture. I like an image that, you know, And so if I'm shooting digitally, I will add that texture. I add the look, I add a little bit of gait because I find that it just I like the organic look where it feels like you can just feel. It's hard to describe, but there's just like a subconscious feeling where you can just there's an element to which it's so textured and visceral and organic and lighter.
01:28:44:00 - 01:29:06:23
Cullen
I think that, you know, if I'm going to shoot something and not, I've also shot things that I don't use film emulation on. I've done short films that I that I've been like, I don't I don't want that. And I've do things that I've not I've just doesn't fit. Depends on obviously the subject matter. And so I think that that's kind of why I say I like I land somewhere in the middle.
01:29:07:05 - 01:29:12:17
Clark
Yeah, I if I had my druthers. Yeah, yeah. If I had my druthers, I would shoot with them for sure.
01:29:12:17 - 01:29:13:03
Cullen
Yes.
01:29:13:03 - 01:29:32:13
Clark
But the bigger reason than how it looks is I think what the workflow is, and I think Quentin is speaking to some of this, which is that, you know, I look again, I'm guessing we're guessing here, but my guess is that Quentin Tarantino likes the workflow of film because it's a it's a slower moving set.
01:29:33:09 - 01:29:34:15
Cullen
Instills a discipline.
01:29:34:19 - 01:29:55:03
Clark
It's well it does that to it. But you're you're spending half a day, maybe hours to light a scene. So you're you know, there's a lot of attention paid have to be more specific with your lighting with film and then of course when you're shooting film now I don't know if you know, look, Quentin could shoot all the film in the world that he wanted to.
01:29:55:03 - 01:30:12:05
Clark
So but but I think every I think it still does affect people. They know that money is running through the camera. They know that, you know, it's and this means something. So the amount of focus that.
01:30:12:05 - 01:30:18:00
Cullen
If you've ever been on a set or shot with film or anything like that or heard a film camera roll, it's a distinct noise to digital.
01:30:18:01 - 01:30:18:15
Clark
It's different.
01:30:18:18 - 01:30:40:04
Cullen
Digital. You could be rolling, you wouldn't know. But from when you're shooting something on film, you can hear it. You can, you know, film cameras are designed to be as quiet as possible, but you can still there is this, this hum and you can you can feel the the the film moving through the gate and, you know, okay, we're rolling.
01:30:40:14 - 01:30:42:15
Cullen
You know, we are we are literally rolling.
01:30:42:15 - 01:30:43:00
Clark
Yeah.
01:30:43:06 - 01:30:44:07
Cullen
From where we come from.
01:30:44:07 - 01:31:04:23
Clark
So there's, there's a history there that you're kind of calling back too. It makes perfect sense that, that Tarantino, who is inspired by film so much, would only want to shoot film. It makes perfect sense if you grew up listening to records, to vinyl records, you may have an affinity for vinyl records over things that technically sound better, right?
01:31:05:11 - 01:31:09:14
Clark
But but it's not about that. It's about a subjective tactile. So I get it, you know.
01:31:11:01 - 01:31:23:22
Cullen
And there are there are also movies that I've seen that I that are crisp and digital that I really like the looks of as well. Yeah. Yeah. But I thought Parasite looked really good and that's there's, that's, that's a very digital looking movie. Yeah.
01:31:24:11 - 01:31:48:14
Clark
So, so I think it's, you know, so I'm happy that it all exists. I'm happy there are people out there like Quentin Tarantino who kind of keep film alive, and I'm really happy for that. But but yeah, I'm not dogmatic about anything. No, no, but. But yeah, well. Oh, my gosh. You know what this may be? I'm not quite sure, but this may be the longest episode we have.
01:31:48:18 - 01:31:50:04
Cullen
I think it is our longest day. I don't add.
01:31:50:04 - 01:32:03:14
Clark
An hour and a half. Wow. And I think we also broke the record for most nieces. Yeah, I'm sorry about that. I was like, I'm debating. Should I leave him in? Well, we'll find out, but all right. Should be.
01:32:03:14 - 01:32:06:02
Cullen
Easy to find in the it should be easy.
01:32:06:02 - 01:32:26:10
Clark
To find up in the big spikes. Well, anyway, we could go on and on, but. But we should draw this to a close. Now. There's so many things we could talk about, but I've really enjoyed it. Colin And it's interesting to hear, you know, some of your views being 20 years removed from me and kind of what your impression of this film is and your experience with it.
01:32:26:10 - 01:32:46:17
Clark
That's really fun for me as sometimes it's kind of like getting to see it through somebody else's eyes, which is quite fun. But yeah, I I've had a blast. I enjoyed it. I look forward to what your pick is going to be for next time around. So exciting. All right. Well, everybody, we hope you enjoyed it, too. And hopefully you've made it this far.
01:32:46:20 - 01:32:55:22
Clark
Boy, if you have, you're a trooper. But hey, until next time, everybody, have a wonderful couple of weeks and we'll see you later. Bye bye. Bye bye.